IRC log for #openmoko on 20070513

00:01.19SpeedEvilCurrently often using FF on my 128M laptop, with 800x600 screen.
00:03.16pavelm_awayOk, so this can be done. Running X over bluetooth (not usb cable) would be even more fun, but that's topic for another day.
00:03.18pavelm_awayGood night!
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01:09.03don-oseemant: i also use ubuntu feisty (Gnome) + firefox on a 128mb laptop.
01:09.12don-oer SpeedEvil  i mean ^^
01:10.19seemantdon-o: congratulations
01:11.02balrog-kuni used Gnome on a 32mb laptop (not firefox though) but that was in the times when 128mb was the normal capacity :p
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01:18.55SuNI used IceWM on a 16MB laptop *WIN*!
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01:24.40balrog-kuni've seen (not used :p) OPIE on a 16mb PDA, full blown qt-based desktop
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01:28.33SuNNo X though, so technically it doesn't count :D
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01:32.56YcrosI've run kde 3.5 and also gnome under debian on my pda - except my pda has 64MB ram and a 4gb hdd
01:40.05SuNYeah. Waaaay overqualified :D
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02:10.24rohyou guys like pain through slow computing?
02:10.58YcrosSuN: yeah, I even had a usb keyboard and mouse hooked up to it
02:21.24aevinroh: yes, as soon as openmoko 1.0 is released, some of us are gonna fork it and make our own openslow-mo featuring extra slowness.
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04:11.33billl_counter
04:11.33alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a optimistic guess) P1: 2 days 15:54:19 (2.663 +-2.7 days) (1160;202)
04:22.10bhimaI just looked at the sample videos of the iPhone. The attention to detail of its UI is really impressive.  I like the end of scrollable area bounce.
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05:57.38wehttamb_counter?
05:57.39alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a optimistic guess) source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; P0: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review; 2 days 15:01:16 (2.626 +-2.6 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-05-14);  4 months, 3 days (126.252 +-15.0 days) for mass market (2007-09-15): see topic for more info (1161;202)
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06:53.29Hopscotchgood morning
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07:03.34simon__counter?
07:03.34alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a optimistic guess) source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; P0: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review; 2 days 14:28:18 (2.603 +-2.6 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-05-14);  4 months, 3 days (126.206 +-15.0 days) for mass market (2007-09-15): see topic for more info (1162;202)
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09:01.47Lorphossearching fulltext on the wiki yields no results
09:01.52Lorphosis this a known problem?
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09:21.50pH5heureka, I'm getting fixes from the gps with gllin.
09:21.58pH5looks like it indeed wasn't able to download indoors
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09:25.22CoreDump|homepH5: yay!
09:26.38Lorphosph5: very cool. how do you rate the reception of the gps? can you compare it to other GPS receivers?
09:27.23CoreDump|homeand could you update the wiki on how you've done it when you get the chance?
09:27.46koen"go outside. get fix" ;)
09:27.52Lorphoscan the hammerhead to updates faster than 1hz btw?
09:28.19Lorphoss/to/do/
09:31.13pH5Lorphos: indoors it doesn't go faster than .2Hz, not sure about outdoors - could be that the periodic test I'm running is fixed to 1Hz.
09:33.06Hopscotchkoen: we have a strace from hammerhead
09:33.45pH5CoreDump|home: sure. it's just "cd /tmp; ~/DM2/gps/gllin -i" and then I ran the cold start + periodic fix test with "batch cold 1 1"
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09:34.01CoreDump|homepH5: thank!
09:34.29pH5btw, gllin doesn't start if /tmp/nmeaNP already exists, so remove it if you started gllin before.
09:35.07pH5koen: time to go for a walk :)
09:37.39koenHopscotch: more and bigger straces :)
09:37.42koenpH5: :)
09:38.01Hopscotchright :)
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09:48.07PBeckhoi
09:48.08Quilirohello room...big community
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09:52.30Quilirolooking around for openmoko for kyocera 7135
09:53.40aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Translation_HOWTO]] [[Category:Neo1973_Hardware]] [[Talk:Translation]]
09:58.11SpeedEvilBasically not ATM
09:58.43Quiliro?
09:58.43alorilQuiliro: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
09:59.01SpeedEvilNeo only at the moment
10:01.42Quilirothanks for the info speedevil...is there any other initiative i can look for to port my palm os in my kyocera 7135 smartphone to GNU plus Linux o another free OS?
10:02.09sparqpH5: Have started you walk yet, or are you still around?
10:02.33balrog-kunQuiliro: port palmos?
10:02.55balrog-kunthere's no source code for palmos, it can't be ported to anything
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10:04.49Quiliro<PROTECTED>
10:05.36Quiliro<PROTECTED>
10:06.55balrog-kunQuiliro: and you want to port Linux to the phone?
10:07.06balrog-kunQuiliro: what version of PalmOS does it run?
10:07.43Quiliro<PROTECTED>
10:10.06balrog-kunit only matter if it's 4 or 5 - PalmOS 5 runs on ARM devices with an MMU and you can port linux to them almost for sure
10:15.45Lorphosso the userspace gps daemon spits out NMEA right?
10:19.52Quiliro<PROTECTED>
10:20.09Quilirothats what i found
10:20.16Quiliroill keep looking
10:21.07balrog-kunit's in the App Launcher in "About" i think
10:21.45balrog-kunif it has a colour display of at least 320x320 then it's PalmOS 5
10:29.34Quiliroyes its colour display...square
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10:55.02pH5sparq: total failure, I'll have to repeat.
10:55.45pH5somehow gllin doesn't reset the gps properly. the second time I run gllin doesn't get replies from the gps and says something about gps hardware failure.
10:55.58pH5the funny thing is if I run hhtest in-between, the next gllin run works again.
10:56.36SpeedEvilpH5: gllin is now spitting out NMEA on the phone?
10:56.46pH5SpeedEvil: yes.
10:57.25SpeedEvilIf so - nuking all the recent files that gllin has modified - to delete ephemiredes/... data, and a clean startup strace for a few min would be nice.
10:57.37pH5I just unicycled around lake Schlachtensee to get a nice trace, but communication hung.
10:57.48pH5I'll repeat that.
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10:58.07pH5gllin has nice cold/warm/hot start batch tests, we should try them all  and compare
10:58.07SpeedEvilOn a desk'd work fine :)
10:58.20pH5I don't get a signal indoors, at least not cold start.
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10:58.25SpeedEvilAh
10:58.25chmacAny new users have gotta wait till May to get their hands on a device right? I couldn't find that anywhere on the site...
10:58.26alorilchmac: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
10:58.37SpeedEvilchmac: masybe a week
10:58.43SpeedEvilHmm.
10:58.52chmacSpeedEvil: Hahaha, I forgot we're already in May! DOH
10:59.07chmacROTFL
10:59.19SpeedEvilOrdering could start monday
10:59.25SpeedEvilPerhaps.
10:59.51chmacGreat
11:00.02chmacWill there be hardware changes between releases?
11:00.20chmacI just scroogled for Linux based smartphones the other day and somebody responded to my blog saying check out OpenMoko
11:00.28chmacIt looks sweet as, I'd love to get my hands on one...
11:00.42chmacI'm guessing it'll sync to a Linux desktop right? Unlike some of the others I've seen... :(
11:01.01SpeedEvilAt teh moment, the ansawer to all of the software questions is mostly 'if you write it'.
11:01.22SpeedEvilIt's basically an X box that'll fit in your pocket, and has marginal phone functionality in some apps.
11:01.45chmacOk, so it's definitely early adopter release at this point...
11:01.51SpeedEvilThe hardware, kernel works well. The phone apps are very much work in progress.
11:01.53SpeedEvilYeah.
11:02.00SpeedEvilFor example, I'm buying one.
11:02.13SpeedEvilBut only as it replaces several other devices I'd otherwise buy.
11:02.15*** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@qiqinebs.chi.il.us)
11:02.16chmacOk, I'm a bit strapped for cash at the moment, so I might hold off for a while until I get *really* sick of my treo... :)
11:02.35SpeedEvilI can use megatunix, which is an engine control unit tuner, in a portable format.
11:02.45SpeedEvilActually in the car, without problems.
11:03.03chmacWow
11:03.06SpeedEvilI can use it for logging data for openstreetmap, including GPS/...
11:03.06chmacCool
11:03.19SpeedEvilI can use it as an mp3 player.
11:04.19SpeedEvilAnd then I can add hardware to it.
11:04.32SpeedEvilAs it's got solderable-to SPI pads.
11:04.46chmacIt supports USB right, so in principle you could plug in stuff like a USB keyboard for sms / email / whatever
11:04.47SpeedEvilSo it might grow an accellerometer and ZigBee.
11:04.50SpeedEvilYes.
11:05.01SpeedEvilThough a bluetooth keyboard is probably a better option.
11:05.31SpeedEvilThe USB port is completely unpowered.
11:05.46SpeedEvilIt will not run keyboards without an exterenal cable + power supply/battery
11:06.15chmacHmm,yeah so a bluetooth keyboard would work better
11:06.21SpeedEvilhttp://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Freedom-Mini-Bluetooth-Keyboard-uk-seller-in-stock_W0QQitemZ150121222476QQihZ005QQcategoryZ42393QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
11:06.26chmacAlthough I'm guessing it wouldn't really need a keyboard
11:06.27SpeedEvilmay be suitable, for example.
11:06.33SpeedEvilEventually, no.
11:06.41SpeedEvilIf you're programming on it, then probably.
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11:07.26chmacYeah, I probably wouldn't be, I'm more of a web developer
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11:16.59Sufflope_counter
11:16.59alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a optimistic guess) P1: 2 days 12:21:36 (2.515 +-2.5 days) (1163;202)
11:17.27steveballmermornin all
11:17.45webjamesmorning morning
11:17.58webjameswell just about afternoon here
11:18.01steveballmer2,5 days
11:18.02steveballmersounds good
11:18.09SpeedEvilMaybe.
11:18.21SpeedEvilI wouldn't be surprised at next monday, or the monday after
11:18.33SpeedEvilThe coming monday  I mean
11:18.35mikesh2,5 sounds like wish
11:18.50aloril2SpeedEvil: just use different model for coding than for  English: I think its possible to efficently input code too using only touch screen
11:18.52webjamesi hope it'll be sometime this week
11:18.58steveballmerI'm really kind of afraid to ask... buuuut will that phone have the atheros interface in it?
11:18.58alorilsteveballmer: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
11:19.03pH5I've put up straces of the serial communication tests #1 - #4 up at http://linuxtogo.org/~ph5/tmp/gllin/, real traces will follow once I have them.
11:19.06SpeedEvilaloril2: Sure - just code it! :)
11:19.18SpeedEvilph4: Great!
11:19.21SpeedEvilph5: Great!
11:19.29SpeedEvilreal traces?
11:19.42pH5SpeedEvil: please don't substract from me :D
11:19.52SpeedEvilph6: Great!
11:20.03pH5SpeedEvil: those are just serial communication tests, nothing going on with the gps.
11:20.07SpeedEvilAh
11:20.30pH5I guess there is nothing to learn except maybe read/write command packet numbers
11:22.10aloril2mikesh: yes, its (upper-lower)/2 = (5-0)/2 = whole range is optimistic guess
11:23.14steveballmerso just to make sure I understood the wiki right: phase 1 which will be available very soon won't have wifi but phase 1+ in june will do?
11:23.33webjamessteveballmer: thats how i understand it
11:23.54Quilirowell thanks speedevil will keep on looking for palmos replacement for kyocera 7135 smartphone...good luck
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11:24.07steveballmerhm I was hoping phase one will already have it :(
11:24.10QuiliroI will keep on looking
11:24.18SpeedEvilQuiliro: It basically needs someone to hack on the hardware
11:24.19steveballmerso I will get a phase1+
11:24.41SpeedEvilIf it's got enough ROM+RAM, then you could install OM on it if someone works out the hardware.
11:26.09webjamessteveballmer: that's what i'm waiting for, i think the release of Phase1 will carry news of phase1+
11:26.09SpeedEvilYes.
11:26.39webjamesSpeedEvil: cool, exciting times
11:26.39QuiliroSpeedEvil: im still a newbie....the most i know is how to compile...on my desktop...dont even know how to install the os on the device.....if you give me some pointers on how to start Illbe very thankfull
11:26.54Quiliro16 MB
11:27.17webjamesQuiliro: what device do you have?
11:27.19SpeedEvilThat's almost certainly not enough RAM.
11:27.32SpeedEvilIf you don't know how to compile, it's not possible for you.
11:27.42SpeedEviloops - misread
11:27.54Quilirokyocera 7135 smartphone
11:28.12steveballmerwhy does FIC not wait until they are ready to produce the phones with atheros wifi chipsets?
11:28.18SpeedEvilAt the moment, it's practically a case of 'if you have to ask, you can't.' as starting out figuring out hardware is almost something you have to have done first.
11:28.27SpeedEvilsteveballmer: the P1 is of use on its own.
11:28.34SpeedEvilsteveballmer: Even without wifi.
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11:29.42Quiliroi know how to compile
11:29.49steveballmerSpeedEvil, Do you know how many units will be produced of that phase?
11:29.56SpeedEvilsteveballmer: Of P1?
11:30.00Quiliroi dont know how to install the os on my smartphone
11:30.10SpeedEvilQuiliro: You can't.
11:30.24SpeedEvilQuiliro: You need to hack the bootloader of your device to load a random binary on it.
11:30.39SpeedEvilYou need to work out what CPU it has, and compile an OS for it.
11:30.55SpeedEvilYou need to write drivers for the touchscreen, modem, bluetooth, ...
11:31.18SpeedEvilYou need to slim down OM from the designed 128M memory footprint to 16 or so.
11:31.27webjamesQuiliro: sounds like you'd be better of putting it on ebay, and buying a neo
11:31.33SpeedEvilMaybe in the future it'll be easy, but not now.
11:31.52loufoqueOpenMoko has a 128MB footprint?
11:32.06SpeedEvilWell.
11:32.18SpeedEvilProbably not quite - but you know what I mean.
11:32.20koen~68MB
11:32.38SpeedEvil>>16
11:32.39koenit works in 64MB with some luck
11:32.39Quiliroarent there GNU distros that fit in a disquete?
11:32.42koenbut gsmd and dialer should work in 16MB
11:32.44loufoque68MB is still quite big
11:32.49SpeedEvilQuiliro: Sure.
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11:33.01koenif you don't load the theme memory and cpu usage drops amazingly
11:33.05SpeedEvilI've had recurring silly ideas of a ncurses touchscreen phone.
11:33.06steveballmerQuiliro, I think they are talking about the RAM
11:33.30steveballmerkoen, can you make calls with command line in moko?
11:33.42SpeedEvilyes
11:33.47SpeedEvilalsamixer to setup the mixers
11:33.48steveballmerlol ncurses phone
11:33.52SpeedEvilminicom to talk to the modem
11:33.52steveballmerhaha
11:34.06steveballmerfull command line geekery
11:34.18loufoquethe terminal has always been the most useful application
11:34.39CoreDump|homegreat....Angstrom/Zaurus and OM ship w/ identical usb0 IPs....
11:35.04steveballmerCoreDump|home, identical with what?
11:35.19CoreDump|homewith each other
11:35.42webjamesQuiliro: maybe look into this: http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/05/08/137238&from=rss
11:35.43Quilirokyocera 7135 uses Palm OS® 4.1 software
11:35.46steveballmerwell I can normally setup my usb ip settings
11:35.54koenCoreDump|home: virtually every OE device does that :(
11:35.55steveballmerlike for any other interface CoreDump|home
11:35.59steveballmeror what do you mean?
11:36.11CoreDump|homekoen: we should split that on a per-device basis maybe?
11:36.20Quilirothks webjames
11:36.28pH5OM has zeroconf installed, angstrom has avahi, so I think we should ship avahi-autoipd and start using zeroconf.
11:36.31koenCoreDump|home: that or just let avashi-autoipd handle it
11:36.43pH5koen: I violently agree.
11:36.44steveballmerpH5, ugh I hate avahi
11:36.49CoreDump|homestefan_schmidt: if course you can change the IPs once you get a connection
11:37.15CoreDump|homeI saw the avashi thingy on connect
11:37.15pH5steveballmer: there are other zeroconf auto-ip implementations
11:37.31steveballmerph5 personnaly I don't like zeroconf at all
11:37.44Quilirokyocera 7135 uses 33 MHz DragonBall?MZ
11:37.59Quiliroand can use sd ram
11:38.00pH5steveballmer: in your opinion, is there a better alternative?
11:38.02SpeedEvilAh. That's _not_ going to run OM anytime soon.
11:38.12steveballmerit kept messing up my ifconfig in ubuntu unitl I got rid of it
11:38.25SpeedEvilIt's around 1/10th the power of the CPU in the neo.
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11:39.45webjamesQuiliro: you could run openmoko in qemu if you're interested to see what it's like
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11:40.26steveballmerpH5, I don't know much about zeroconf except that it is confusing my whole network settings on my desktop system and angstrom and I also heard it is very unsecure
11:40.32steveballmer(avahi)
11:40.39Quilirohmmmm.....ok will investigate qemu guys thanks
11:40.50koen"unsecure"
11:40.57pH5heh
11:41.07steveballmerkoen, ?
11:41.22steveballmeram I wrong?
11:41.26koenyes
11:41.36CoreDump|homepH5: koen unless your dhcp-replacements can dynamically update my DNS so I can use hostnames, I don't see a benefit over static IPs on USB
11:42.09koensomeone with arpping can do the same on your network
11:42.19koenCoreDump|home: it isn't a dhcp replacement
11:42.25steveballmeryes what's the benefit regarding zeroconf?
11:42.28koenit kicks in when dchp fails
11:42.46CoreDump|homeUSB shouldn't use DHCP in  the first place heh
11:42.57steveballmerkoen, and what does it try then after dhcp failed?
11:42.57webjamesQuiliro: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile and click QEMU
11:43.36CoreDump|homebtw: the openmoko onscreen keyboard looks cute but is unusable. It doesn't even have arrow-keys :\
11:43.49pH5CoreDump|home: ACK!
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11:43.51koenCoreDump|home: or a tab key
11:43.55CoreDump|homeyeah
11:44.10webjamesQuiliro: basic steps are: get the Mokomakefile, then do 'make setup' then 'make qemu'
11:44.17pH5also placing numbers / symbols / letters on different screens like that makes using it in the shell very painful.
11:44.20koenI also dislike the tiny keys with huge spacing
11:44.26steveballmerkoen, for example, when I had a bad 802.11 connection that pinged out here and now and I had to restart the interfaces and get a new ip avahi was really annoying
11:44.27CoreDump|homeright
11:44.41CoreDump|homelooks like a designer hacked it
11:44.51webjameskoen there is another more fully features keyboard
11:45.03koenCoreDump|home: to make it worse, it's a fork of matchbox-keyboard
11:45.08webjamesstill doesn't have the up down arrows though
11:45.12CoreDump|homesigh
11:45.14koenCoreDump|home: so it will be unsupported in a few weeks
11:45.20Quilirowill try webjames...thks
11:45.55CoreDump|homewebjames: indeed! It has arrowkeys
11:46.09CoreDump|homekoen: they ship the default matchbox kbd as well
11:46.34webjamesCoreDump|home: although might be two small for fingers, i guess that's why there's two, one for texting, one for console
11:46.40CoreDump|homeok forget it, the keys don't work :\
11:46.43koenwhere "few weeks" is "$hacker in shanghai get a new job leaving an undocumented fork"
11:46.54steveballmerCoreDump|home, the matchbox-keyboard doesn't have arrows either. seams like that's usual
11:47.11koenmatchboxkeyboard has arrow buttons
11:47.14webjamesCoreDump|home: i'm just about to run it and find out
11:47.14pH5steveballmer: in the lower right
11:47.27koen<>^ keys
11:47.42koenthe layout was done before it supported arbritrary shapes
11:47.49steveballmerwebjames, there are none
11:47.58CoreDump|homewebjames: you can switch from OM kbd to MB kbd via the right side of the "white" icon next to the OM menu
11:48.20webjamessteveballmer: arrows, i thought not, however there are still two keyboards right? one finger and one for a stylus i guess
11:48.34steveballmerwebjames, what distro?
11:48.38CoreDump|homebut the terminal is f*cked up, it doesn't handle backspace or the arrow keys grr
11:48.45steveballmerangstrom?
11:48.59loufoquehow will OpenMoko be able to scale to other mobile phones than the neo if everything is absolutely positioned?
11:49.04webjamessteveballmer: i'm just making the latest now i'll see
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11:49.57steveballmerwebjames, ah I have a one only few days old and just discovered that there _are_ two. I thought that it was a bug displaying it 2x
11:50.08steveballmerbut the one for stylus has arrows.
11:50.10webjamesloufoque: hmm, good point i guess it will have to be compatible with only certain resolutions
11:50.39webjamessteveballmer: i think i remember the one for the stylus has arrows, i'm just making now
11:50.42pH5loufoque: it's our responsibility to kick the programmers until it isn't anymore.
11:50.52CoreDump|homeok, launching "x-terminal-emulator" via the retarded OM terminal opens a working xterm
11:50.53koenI guess I should sharpen my fingers
11:51.10steveballmerkoen, if you have small fingers it is just ok
11:51.18steveballmerbut already severe
11:51.27webjamespH5, so it could be relative?
11:51.53loufoqueCoreDump|home: and how do you input stuff in xterm with your phone?
11:52.03pH5webjames: yes. some time in the future...
11:52.16CoreDump|homeloufoque: the onscreen keyboard we were talking about
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11:52.33steveballmerkoen, also if your finger tips are 3x bigger than the buttons, you can still hit them but it's not easy and requires a bit training
11:52.34loufoqueso there is no smarter inputting method than the onscreen keyboard?
11:52.35CoreDump|homeI'm just trying to fix the IP for USB0 so I can ssh into it
11:52.57CoreDump|homeloufoque: one could use a BT keyboard but I don't have one
11:53.02webjamesloufoque: atm there is two onscreen keyboards one more fully featured that the other, however with more buttons makes the keys smaller
11:53.03steveballmerbut a stylus is better anyways
11:53.19koenCoreDump|home: that's why angstrom images ship gpe-conf for openmoko :)
11:53.31loufoquewhat about T9-like solutions?
11:53.33koena sucky config panel is still better than no config panel
11:53.40aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Translation]]
11:53.41empty_mindkoen
11:53.48loufoquefor example, make "qwer" a single key
11:53.55webjameskoen, all you need it to grow your nails and then cut the sides off, giving your a weird pointer
11:53.58loufoquethen use heuristics
11:54.16pH5or morse input
11:54.17CoreDump|homekoen: I'll build and install th angstrom image on the P0 when I get the chance. The fact that OM is ro is starting to annoy me
11:54.22guaquapH5: morse is slow
11:54.30steveballmerloufoque, t9 would be to uncomfortable for a smart phone I think :)
11:54.41loufoquepH5: people don't know morse well
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11:55.15guaquahexinput is what i'm thinking...and maybe some outcomplete. it's easy enough for people to learn from previous experience and also provides faster input than regular keyboard
11:55.16webjameswhen i try and run it in qemu it doesn't run just says QEMU - Stopped
11:55.28loufoquesteveballmer: something like T9 but instead of having a key for "abc", another for "def" etc. make it more like a real keyboard
11:55.29guaqualoufoque: people don't know morse - period. :)
11:55.33quitte_looking at all those teenagers bing faster with t9 than with a regular keyboard, it might be an option even for the desktop
11:55.43loufoquesteveballmer: the larger the keys are, the easier it is to hit them
11:55.57pH5loufoque: morse only needs one button ;)
11:56.11guaquarecognizing morse is a bitch
11:56.12webjamespH5: shame i don't know it
11:56.25guaquaespecially with traditional keying
11:56.29SpeedEvilRecognising good morse is trivial.
11:56.34steveballmerloufoque, there are some smart phones that have such keypads as you explained
11:56.50guaquawith one button for dit, another one for dah it would be easier
11:56.54guaquaSpeedEvil: trust me, it isn't
11:56.59webjamesSpeedEvil: for Morse you could have a blue-tooth Morse in putter clicker thingy
11:57.22steveballmerloufoque, I don't know how that  make things smaller. you still need to put all chars
11:57.22guaquaand again, trust me, it isn't as fast as you think :)
11:57.23SpeedEvilI keep thinking of ZigBee.
11:57.41SpeedEvilYou get a micro, and RF interface for $3.
11:57.50SpeedEvilIdeal for switchy things.
11:58.14loufoquesteveballmer: sure, but the key becomes larger, so you don't have to be as accurate to hit it
11:58.36steveballmerloufoque, why would they become larger? you don't have less keys as you explained it
11:58.44steveballmerif i got you right
11:58.45guaquaSpeedEvil: have you actually investigated morse recognition algorithms?
11:59.01SpeedEvilguaqua: No - it seems like it should be easy. If it's not, I believe you
11:59.10webjamesi'm sure the best thing would be to have a laser keyboard bluetooth that you could carry around if you needed to input larger portions of text
11:59.21SpeedEviltyhe laser bluetootht hting sucs
11:59.27SpeedEvillooks cool, but.
11:59.30guaquahuman keying is waaay harder to recognize
11:59.37webjamesSpeedEvil: that's a shame
11:59.42guaqualots of fuzzy logic and all that jazz
11:59.56loufoquesteveballmer: instead of having "q", "w", "e", "r", "t", "y", "u", "i", "o", "p" you could just have two keys, "qwert" and "yuiop".
11:59.58SpeedEvilLearning the fist I suppose would be needed.
12:00.00webjamesyeah QEMU is failing when it worked two days ago - QEMU [Stopped]
12:00.23steveballmerloufoque, ah now I know what you mean. normal keyboard order but not the cell phone style
12:01.17koenwebjames: probably this one: http://svnweb.openmoko.org/?rev=1948&view=rev
12:01.26steveballmerthat would be interesting to try-  but if you chose such a solution , I think peoeple would rather preffer the keyboard style they are used to speaking of t9
12:01.30steveballmerfrom their cell phones
12:01.50webjameskoen, that looks like it
12:02.05webjamest9 is copyright i think
12:02.11SpeedEvilIt is.
12:02.15koenwebjames: I'm confident balrog-kun will fix it soon
12:02.17guaquat9 on steroids...better heuristics, easy way of inserting new words and choosing from alternatives - would be great and not that hard to implement
12:02.44guaquabut the thing is - as long as we don't call it t9 and it isn't distributed by fic is it actually illegal?
12:02.56webjamesguaqua: i agree that would make it easier to finger press, and more like a traditional cell phone
12:03.08guaquaor moreso, would there be legal action?
12:03.53webjamesi guess how could it be, if someone can rip ms windiz off then surly if we designed a similar input method it would be illegal?
12:04.01pH5anybody tried werner almesberger's inwheel idea?
12:04.59steveballmerinwheel?
12:05.11webjamesbalrog-kun: qemu error http://dpaste.com/10198/ hope this helps
12:05.12guaquawebjames: illegal yes, but if there is no entity actually getting money from it and distributing how can they sue? this is basically a philosophical argument about software patents now
12:05.14CoreDump|homepH5: it requires cpp on the host...
12:06.32webjamesguaqua: couldn't they sue for loss of sales due to people using the free alternative?
12:06.58guaquawho are they going to sue?
12:07.18guaquathe programmer who coded the alternative?
12:07.20webjamesguaqua: whoever made it
12:07.32guaquai don't think that's possible
12:08.08webjamesi didn't think it was possible for a burglar to sue me for defending my property but it happens
12:09.58webjamesQuiliro: atm qemu doesn't work
12:10.29steveballmerpH5, what's inwheel?
12:11.06guaquaSpeedEvil: http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/iel5/86/18783/00867882.pdf
12:11.14hrwmorning
12:11.21guaquait'd be interesting to implement this :)
12:11.22pH5steveballmer: an input method idea, it's somewhere on the openmoko-devel list.
12:11.25webjamessteveballmer: http://www.mail-archive.com/openmoko-devel@lists.openmoko.org/msg00450.html
12:12.14steveballmerwebjames, what is required to compile it?
12:12.43webjamessteveballmer: no idea i'm sorry, maybe more info in the file?
12:13.03steveballmerdoes om use x11?
12:13.27koendoes the faq have answers?
12:13.34steveballmerlol
12:14.31webjameskoen: only smarties have the answer
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12:16.13webjamesit would be nice when someone types 'counter' if aloril would send them a PM instead
12:16.43SpeedEvilsteveballmer: yes
12:16.45SpeedEvilfaq?
12:16.46alorilSee http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ
12:20.28hrw<PROTECTED>
12:20.46webjames<PROTECTED>
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12:27.48steveballmerlater
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12:37.11webjamesCoreDump|home: nice.. very nice..
12:37.13CoreDump|home!lart gllin for being a PITA
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12:42.45pH5CoreDump|home: I can feel your pain :P
12:43.24CoreDump|homehmm, while decoding the nmea data I noticed that I did not get a lock yet
12:43.35CoreDump|homepH5: only +pty works here....
12:45.51hrwbrb
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12:52.31CoreDump|homeok, I finally got an indoor lock
12:55.11webjamesCoreDump|home: cool, looks like openmoko gps is getting somewhere
12:55.21CoreDump|homeI hope so =)
12:55.34CoreDump|homeI'm trying to validate the GPS data
12:58.18CoreDump|homeanyone know a way to map GPS coordinates to a map?
12:59.21koenCoreDump|home: maps.google.com
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12:59.32*** part/#openmoko Alpha1650 (n=Alpha165@p5b0d1cd6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
12:59.43webjamesopenstreetmap also
12:59.49CoreDump|homeI was reading their "Help" page but didn't spot anything
13:00.06Hopscotchhttp://maps.google.com?q=lat/lon
13:00.23webjamesalthough no good if someone hasn't mapped your area yet, but if they had sign up and click edit and you can see their gps coordinates
13:01.08koenCoreDump|home: you should be around 51 degrees/7 degrees
13:01.37CoreDump|homeHopscotch: doesn't work for me =(
13:01.42CoreDump|homekoen: sounds good
13:02.01webjamesCoreDump|home: where should you be
13:02.14koenhttp://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=nl&q=koeln,+germany&ie=UTF8&ll=50.94545,6.959839&spn=0.104912,0.312767&t=h&z=12&iwloc=addr&om=1
13:02.26koenchange the coords in the url to check
13:02.46HopscotchCoreDump|home: this is where my desc is: http://maps.google.com/?q=49.815777/9.965808
13:03.12Hopscotchyou need to calc decimal numbers - gps uses some kind of degrees.minutessecodesfrac
13:03.13CoreDump|homeholdon, looks like the NMEA data has the decimal point wrong
13:03.46*** join/#openmoko buz (n=buz@84-72-54-173.dclient.hispeed.ch)
13:03.47koennmea use degrees, minutes, seconds iirc
13:03.47Hopscotchdeg.mmssff where mm = minutes from 00-59, ss = seconds from 00-59 and ff = 00-99 (fractions of a second)
13:04.30CoreDump|homehttp://rafb.net/p/OISeRk82.html
13:04.36CoreDump|homethat's my coordinates
13:04.44CoreDump|homeplease don't nuke it =)
13:05.20Hopscotchhehe
13:05.30koenthat looks indeed a bit off
13:05.46koendunno if nmea uses that to avoid floating points
13:06.24CoreDump|homehttp://rafb.net/p/AT2gIO51.html <- NMEA fix
13:08.09webjamesi'm not sure howto reverse lookup your coordinates on google, if you could do that you could see how your results translate
13:08.10CoreDump|homewow NMEA format is way retarded, w/ moving dec point and all
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13:09.35hrwI wonder when someone will run tomtom software on neo (after ripping it from hammerhead powered device)
13:10.04CoreDump|homehrw: I would love to have commercial navigation on neo
13:10.12hrwCoreDump|home: so do I
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13:10.34hrwCoreDump|home: friend recently shown me tomtom on his HTC Artemis - simple and easy soft
13:10.36webjamesit would be lovely
13:10.42hrwusable on 2.8" qvga screen
13:10.50koenI talked to a TomTom employee last week and he said "not likely, unless there's a big demand for it"
13:10.56CoreDump|home=(
13:11.07hrwand tomtom is quite cheap. my part of europe is 70 eur
13:11.29Hopscotchi guess tomtom on the neo is no problem
13:11.39HopscotchCoreDump|home: http://maps.google.com/?q=50.8594255832/7.1141237776
13:11.43HopscotchCoreDump|home: is that better?
13:12.38CoreDump|homeHopscotch: that is a bloody perfect match
13:12.47Hopscotchgotcha :)
13:12.56Hopscotchhere's the formula:
13:13.04Hopscotch50+(51/60)+(33/3600)+0.9321/3600=50.8594255832
13:13.12Hopscotch7+(6/60)+(50/3600)+0.8456/3600=7.1141237776
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13:13.47CoreDump|homeHopscotch: wow
13:13.57CoreDump|homebut it is a little bit off I notice
13:13.57mjrso we have a gps fix from the neo?
13:13.57mjryay
13:14.07CoreDump|homemjr: indeed =)
13:14.08webjamesCoreDump|home: if i switch to satellite it looks like you're right in the corner of the building
13:14.29CoreDump|homewebjames: the fix is very close, but not a match :(
13:14.54webjamesCoreDump|home: how far out is it?
13:15.19CoreDump|homeI'm looking for better coordinates
13:15.36CoreDump|homehaving to locate my house "from orbit" is a funny thing to do =)
13:15.59webjamesyeah, i don't know how to lock in and get coordinates from google maps though
13:16.31CoreDump|homesame here =)
13:16.52koenput it in the center and inspect the "link to this page" link
13:17.01CoreDump|homethe position is a bit off tot the east
13:17.09CoreDump|homeN/S is about right
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13:17.28Hopscotchuse googleearth and watch the coordinates under the mouse pointer
13:17.37webjamesahh...
13:18.07CoreDump|homekoen: that link does nothing :\
13:18.45koenit contains the coordinates
13:19.08webjamesi couldn't find coordinates from the link
13:19.46CoreDump|homeHopscotch: got a link for that?
13:19.59HopscotchCoreDump|home: for google earth?
13:20.04CoreDump|homeyeah
13:20.16Hopscotchyou need to download that
13:20.18CoreDump|homenever used it =)
13:20.21CoreDump|homeerr...
13:20.29Hopscotchhttp://earth.google.com/
13:20.39Hopscotchthat things one of the best web services _ever_
13:20.53Hopscotchmost linux distros have some kind of package for it
13:20.59Hopscotchif you're not under windows...
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13:21.28antenagoracounter
13:21.28alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a optimistic guess) P1: 2 days 11:19:21 (2.472 +-2.5 days) (1164;202)
13:21.38hrwCoreDump|home: if you have ati card then GE does not work with fglrx
13:21.50Hopscotchhrw: yes, it does (here)
13:22.01CoreDump|homehrw: got an nvidia but am not motivated to install GE
13:22.16HopscotchCoreDump|home: try it - it's really a perk
13:22.21CoreDump|homekoens trick with the link worked, I just need to extract the coordinates
13:22.38hrwHopscotch: ?? which ati card? which fglrx release?
13:22.45pH5is the format of maps.google.com q parameter the same as the ll parameter?
13:23.35Hopscotchhrw: gentoo ~x86, 8.35.5, ATI Technologies Inc Radeon Mobility X1400
13:24.09pH5dumb question, looks like it is.
13:24.56CoreDump|home50.857892,7.107741
13:25.08CoreDump|homethat's a close estimate on my pos
13:25.13webjamesthis is my coordinates: 51.740459/-1.233707 but the q=51.740459/-1.233707 doesn't work, just a heads up
13:25.37CoreDump|homes/\/,
13:26.21koenCoreDump|home: so a ~400m error
13:26.48koencould be a bad signal, error in Hopscotch' math or a buggy gllin
13:26.51webjamesCoreDump|home: were you inside when you took them, could that make a difference?
13:26.51pH5hmm. the error estimates ranged between 5m outdoors and 50m indoors here.
13:27.01CoreDump|homeyeah, I'm indoors
13:27.29webjamesyou could try taking a reading outside?
13:27.41CoreDump|homeI'm writing a script to convert NMEA to the dec format
13:27.59koenCoreDump|home: gpsbabel
13:28.53CoreDump|homekoen: thanks
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13:33.32CoreDump|homekoen: do you know the format-name for the dec coordinates by chance?
13:34.05koenI always use gpx, why has:
13:34.12koen<trkpt lat="52.209885000" lon="6.009567000">
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13:36.04koenah, near my parents house
13:38.04koengpx is xml, btw, so quite easy to transform
13:38.14koenand it's the de-facto standard
13:38.51koennmea is only interesting to get info about the satelites as well as your position
13:39.35pH5hm, gps fixes are timestamped in GMT, but my neo clock is running at GMT-7h11min
13:39.56koendoesn't ntp have a nmea plugin as well ?
13:45.41SpeedEvilYes.
13:45.43SpeedEvilntpd
13:45.52buzuhm google earth works on my ati x1400
13:45.58SpeedEvilI think gpsd comes with a trivial app.
13:46.26buzit is even much faster than on windows
13:46.40ayan4m1What rendering path does it use on windows?
13:48.21buzi dont think its the fault of the app as much as the general suckiness of vista
13:48.23pH5does nmea ntp depend on the pps signal on the serial port's dcd or is that optional?
13:48.36ayan4m1buz: Apparently the opengl version runs much slower on windows
13:48.57buzayan4m1: everything runs much slower on vista
13:49.04buzi cant figure out just what ms did 5 years
13:49.12ayan4m1UAC, pretty much
13:49.22buzsudo plus gui takes 5 years?
13:49.33koenbuz: watching porn
13:49.59ayan4m1pH5: "The NMEA drivers supports the PPS signal.  I believe that the convention is that you connect it to the DCD pin on the serial port."
13:50.09ayan4m1From an ntp mailing list
13:50.18ayan4m1buz: Apparently
13:50.34SpeedEvilIn this case irrelevant - there is no DCD pin
13:50.40buzoh and a very rudimentary version of compiz
13:50.52pH5SpeedEvil: that's why I'm asking - will it work without?
13:50.55SpeedEvilYes
13:50.57pH5ok
13:50.58buzwhich david reveman wrote in what? 4 months?
13:51.09SpeedEvilyou can connect GPSd to gpgll - then ntp to gpsd
13:51.16SpeedEvilyou may not get ideal precision.
13:51.23SpeedEvilBut do you care if the clock wanders .1s
13:51.27buz(ok to be fair, aero seems stable which is not entirely true of neither xgl or nor aiglx))
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13:53.17ayan4m1From what I can find it's not required
13:53.23ayan4m1To use the dcd
13:54.07ayan4m1You can also use a pin on a parallel port, if that's an option and you want the pps
13:56.11ayan4m1buz: Yeah there really isn't a reason for XP users to upgrade, it's just some eye candy and a few useless features
13:56.31ayan4m1buz: Hopefully winfs can make it worth the upgrade
13:56.45buzi doubt it
13:57.33aloril2webjames: this works too: /msg aloril counter
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13:58.26webjamesaloril2, ermm thanks..
13:59.13buzayan4m1: as it stands, vista on a brandnew core 2 duo 2ghz is slower than xp on my trusty old pentium m
13:59.52ayan4m1buz: Yeah, I don't quite understand it... thus far I haven't been asked to develop anything targeted to it so I'm happy
14:00.09koenbuz: which is also true for linux, but the change went a bit more gradually
14:00.34buzkoen: actually, kde runs a lot faster on the new machine than on the old
14:00.48buz(to be fair, xp actually felt snappier than kde on the old one)
14:00.51koenbuz: kde from 5 years ago?
14:00.56buzkde 3.5.6
14:00.59ayan4m1CoreDump|home: What didn't work?
14:01.14CoreDump|homeit won't print coordinates
14:01.48ayan4m1Does it find the hardware?
14:02.05CoreDump|homeit reads from a file, h/w doesn't matter
14:02.09ayan4m1Oh ok
14:02.25CoreDump|homea little scripting should do the trick
14:02.58ayan4m1Is there any concrete list of things that need doing?
14:03.02ayan4m1With openmoko
14:04.29buzso the drivers are accurate to 400m? that's mostly useless
14:04.30koenis "send packet 00" really "send packet 00" or "sent packet 00"
14:04.42koen?
14:04.54ayan4m1Well if it's received
14:04.59ayan4m1Then it should be sent
14:05.11koenright
14:05.12ayan4m1Unless it's being described as a timeline
14:05.13ayan4m1As in
14:05.24ayan4m1"I send packet 0, I received packet 54
14:05.25CoreDump|homebuz: nahh, I'm indoors
14:05.44ayan4m1But sent/received makes more sense in both instances
14:06.31koenwell, some portions in the wiki don't make sense whichever way you spell 'sent' :(
14:07.50koengah, I rubbed my eyes
14:08.05koenafter having sliced peppers
14:09.10buzouch
14:09.27koenkeeps you awake :)
14:09.48XorAkoen: do that once a day and you soon immune to pepper spray
14:10.31koenthat reminds me, I still have to sign up for the pepperspray test
14:10.51koenI'm really curious how bad it hurts
14:11.00buzi wouldnt try that
14:11.13buzfriend of mine once sprayed it on his hands, got quite bad burn like symptoms
14:11.28koenwatching a whole class of police cadets getting sprayed is hilarious however
14:11.46buzlol, amen to that
14:12.10buzdo they also shoot them?
14:12.36koenno, they still need them in one piece
14:13.29koenit's nice to see arrogant 17 year olds with a uniform and gun seeing transformed into polite people :)
14:13.53buzpolite people? dutch police must be truly special then
14:14.38koenthe after effects of the pepperspray makes them quite meek
14:14.48buzfor a while
14:14.52koenyeah
14:14.59buzprobably wears off before they get out of academy
14:15.13*** join/#openmoko P3T3_nb (n=P3T3_nb@b114.dkm.cz)
14:15.18koenit wears of in a few hours
14:15.20sixfeetno phone in sight ;(
14:16.02Stephmwbuz: that's because they apply it using suppositories when they graduate... hence why cops are such a pain
14:17.16buznever ascribe to malice what can explained by simple stupidity
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14:22.36buzmhh that one is not so bad either ;)
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14:53.42balrog-kunwebjames: still there?
14:53.54webjamesbalrog-kun: yes
14:54.08*** join/#openmoko atla (n=atla@p3ee3fe2a.dip.t-dialin.net)
14:54.19balrog-kunwebjames: looks like qemu is not running at all, it terminates immediately as if the executable wasn't there
14:54.56webjamesi have not changed anything and it was running fine on thursday, i don't think it is qemu
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14:55.25balrog-kunon friday i updated the whole thing to 0.9.0
14:55.34balrog-kunthere was 30 MB of changes :)
14:55.45bmidgley|awayhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/System_Developer doesn't even mention dfu-util
14:55.57bmidgley|awayis it an oversight, old page, ?
14:56.35webjamesi did, make update-makefile, make update, make setup, make qemu
14:56.55balrog-kunwebjames: can you check if /home/james/OpenMoko/build/qemu/openmoko/arm-softmmu/qemu-system-arm exist?
14:57.09balrog-kunerrr, not this
14:57.22balrog-kun/home/james/OpenMoko/build/qemu/arm-softmmu/qemu-system-arm this
14:57.54webjamesthis exists: /home/james/OpenMoko/build/qemu/arm-softmmu
14:58.05balrog-kunbut not qemu-system-arm?
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14:58.13balrog-kunis the directory empty or something?
14:58.23balrog-kunhmm
14:58.25*** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@qiqinebs.chi.il.us)
14:58.28webjames/home/james/OpenMoko/build/qemu/openmoko/arm-softmmu this dir has lots in
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14:58.59balrog-kunoh, hmm
14:59.21balrog-kunmaybe MokoMakefile does something with the paths - i've never used MokoMakefile
14:59.45webjamesmaybe is needs an upgrade after your 30meg change around
15:00.23balrog-kunvery likely :)
15:00.53webjamesi'll find out if this is the case
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15:03.52balrog-kunthe script is extremely complex
15:03.56balrog-kunthe one in MokoMakefile
15:04.07webjamesyes, i was just looking
15:04.20webjamesit did work very well
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15:06.07webjamesbalrog-kun: http://www.rwhitby.net/
15:06.17webjamesbalrog-kun: what changes have you made?
15:06.48balrog-kuni thought that nothing that could affect the build process
15:07.08balrog-kunthere was a ton of changes (four months worth)
15:07.43webjameshmm... but no structure changes?
15:08.21balrog-kunnone that i can tell, here the procedure is exactly the same
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15:09.41webjamesweird, i have just tried running it again, i don't seem to get any errors until i goto build the qemu
15:10.11webjamesthis seems to be the error that is breaking it: openmoko/flash.sh: line 85: kill: (17283) - No such process
15:10.23balrog-kunon any case it doesn't look like anything serious, probably paths messup
15:10.27balrog-kun*in
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15:11.59balrog-kunwebjames: could you try running a couple of commands that i would paste?
15:12.17webjamessure the build dir is /home/james/Openmoko btw
15:12.55balrog-kunok
15:13.25borg_top
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15:13.30borg_ups
15:15.06balrog-kunwebjames: cd /home/james/OpenMoko/build/qemu ; arm-softmmu/qemu-system-arm -M neo -m 130 -mtdblock openmoko/openmoko-flash.image -kernel u-boot.bin -serial stdio
15:15.31balrog-kunif it launches u-boot correctly hit Ctrl+C to kill it
15:16.02webjamesi get the same QEMU [Stopped] in the title bar of a blank screen
15:16.48balrog-kunok, then it seems the executable is there, it just stops for some reason
15:17.24webjamesbalrog-kun: it would seem to, something to do with flash.sh path?
15:18.43balrog-kunwebjames: can you press ctrl-alt-2 in that window and type "c [enter]"
15:19.45webjamesbalrog-kun: i'm getting nothing
15:20.11webjamesmy processor is at 50% though
15:21.51balrog-kunstrange, are you on a 32bit or 64bit OS
15:21.51webjames32bit
15:23.07balrog-kunmaybe i messed up something in the watchdog timer related to 32 bits (no 32 bits machien to test)
15:23.12webjamesUbunt 7.04 using bash
15:23.41webjamesis there any more feedback i could give you to help?
15:24.23balrog-kunprobably nope
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15:24.27webjameskernel: 2.6.20-15-generic
15:24.56webjamesbalrog-kun: would it work in dash as well as bash?
15:26.52balrog-kunwebjames: i heard reports that i doesn't work with dash
15:27.04balrog-kunpersonally i've never seen dash and don't know where it came from
15:27.39webjamesbalrog-kun: yeah, i'm sure i'm using bash though, and i've not had a problem before so it can't be that anyway
15:28.06koenbalrog-kun: "doesn't work with dash" always means "buggy script"
15:28.23koenif you depend on bash-isms, the shebang should be #!/bin/bash
15:28.31balrog-kunkoen: well, it's a bash scrpt, it's not an sh script
15:28.51balrog-kunkoen: right, but i hear ubuntu now has /bin/bash symlinked to dash
15:29.08koenAFAIK only /bin/sh
15:29.15guaquasudo apt-get remove dash
15:29.23woglindeapt-get install bash
15:29.25woglinde*g*
15:29.29koenguaqua: that's a hack, not a solution
15:29.31guaquaerr
15:29.33guaquaremove :)
15:29.40guaquasudo apt-get remove dash
15:29.47webjamestry this: sudo dpkg-reconfigure dash
15:29.52woglindedpkg --purge dash?
15:30.06guaquai have no use for dash, therefore i rather just remove it
15:30.07woglindeupdate-alternatives --config bash?
15:30.11woglindehaha
15:30.16webjamesand select 'no'
15:30.25balrog-kunkoen: the shebang has #! /usr/bin/env bash
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15:30.51koenbalrog-kun: right, so "doesn't work with dash" actaully means "PEBKAC"
15:31.32balrog-kunwebjames: one thing you could try is edit hw/s3c2410.c and comment out line 2396, that would rule out the watchdog timer
15:31.33koendash is great for spotting bashisms that busybox ash chokes on
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15:34.52balrog-kunthese script are temporary and are only useful on desktops so i don't see the need to spot bashisms, it's a bash script, it's supposed to have bashisms :)
15:35.12koenright :)
15:37.05webjameswell if this helps: make update: http://dpaste.com/10204/  make setup: http://dpaste.com/10205/ and make qemu: http://dpaste.com/10206/ , i'll now try commenting out line 2396
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15:43.02webjamesbalrog-kun: okay, i just changed it and then ran make setup, and it reverted back to the old file
15:43.38balrog-kunoh, make setup probably fetches the sources from svn
15:43.54webjamesi'll just run make qemu then
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15:45.17webjamesi'm still getting the openmoko/flash.sh: line 85: kill: (19908) - No such process error when i run it
15:46.22balrog-kundoes it also say [Stopped] in the window caption?
15:46.26webjamesyes
15:47.14balrog-kuni think i will have to try that myself in a 32bit VM one day
15:47.56balrog-kunwebjames: thanks for help debugging this
15:48.07ayan4m1balrog-kun: If you change the symlink from dash to bash it works fine, I didn't need to change anything else
15:48.51balrog-kunayan4m1: nice, i wonder why they ubuntu made the switch
15:48.59balrog-kuns/they //
15:49.26ayan4m1Yeah I'm not exactly sure
15:49.52koensh is a symlink for dash and bash is bash
15:50.07koenhow does that cause problems?
15:50.18webjamesbalrog-kun: i changed the line 2396 in both files hw/s3c2410.c and  hw/.svn/text-base/s3c2410.c.svn-base and made the latter read only, so it doesn't restore the original and it still fails
15:50.54ayan4m1koen: If you try and run mokomakefile in dash perl gets messed up
15:51.31koenright
15:51.36koenI don't run the makefile
15:51.39ayan4m1Oh heh
15:51.52koenthe makefile is for lazy people
15:52.03ayan4m1Yeah I was considering doing it from source
15:52.12ayan4m1But I had just spent several hours trying to compile evemon under mono
15:52.23webjameswell so is a supermarket if you look at it in a certain way
15:52.45ayan4m1Well the difference is the quality
15:52.59ayan4m1Some people say that food you grow yourself is better, I personally can't see a difference
15:53.08ayan4m1But with the makefile I'm sure there are some minute details you can't control
15:53.16ayan4m1That you can if you personally build the entire environment
15:53.18webjamesalso if i grew my own food i'd starve
15:53.22ayan4m1Haha
15:53.25ayan4m1That too
15:53.30koenthere's a middle way
15:53.40koengo to the butcher, bakery, etc
15:53.52webjameskoen, yes that is true
15:54.12webjameskoen, but they've all shut down around here
15:54.24ayan4m1Why?
15:54.27webjameskoen, tesco rules supreme
15:54.44ayan4m1I was so confused the first time I went into a tesco
15:54.48webjameskoen, tesco now has the buying power of a small country
15:55.05jeddy3_webjames, sorry If this is obvious I haven't been following the whole discussion, installing lynx solved qemu problems for me
15:55.05DukeOfURLwhat about waitrose?
15:55.05webjamesayan4m1: why?
15:55.14ayan4m1I saw a sign for yoghurt
15:55.17ayan4m1And was confused
15:55.43ayan4m1I had never seen it spelled that way before
15:55.56webjamesjeddy3_ i havelynx
15:56.03webjamesjeddy3_ but thanks!
15:56.11jeddy3_webjames, okay :)
15:56.17ayan4m1webjames: What problems are you having with qemu?
15:56.29balrog-kunjeddy3_: there are some new problems now :)
15:56.42webjamesjeddy3_ can you run make update-makefile, make update, make setup, make qemu, and it will work now?
15:56.42balrog-kunwhich i introduced on Friday
15:57.26balrog-kunqemu is constantly evolving :)
15:57.30webjamesbalrog-kun: maybe it's just me, maybe jeddy3_'s will work
15:58.36webjamesayan4m1: this is my output to each of there:  make update: http://dpaste.com/10204/  make setup: http://dpaste.com/10205/ and make qemu: http://dpaste.com/10206/
15:58.47webjamesthere should read these
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16:01.34webjamesjeddy3_ any luck?
16:03.30jeddy3_webjames, sorry last tested this friday
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16:06.20webjamesjeddy3_ yes me to
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16:12.23webjamesi dare say is a mokomakefile problem that the creator will sort out, his name escapes me at this moment
16:13.19webjameseither that of balrog-kun will unearth something, fingers crossed one of the two
16:13.28ayan4m1RodWhitby
16:13.57webjamesayan4m1: thank you, i might email him with the problem to inform him
16:14.13balrog-kuni'm afraid it's qemu (i.e. me), and that it locks up on start for some reason (possibly only on 32bit machines)
16:14.39webjamesbalrog-kun: in which case i'll hold back on my email
16:15.00ayan4m1webjames: Happy to help
16:15.01koenbalrog-kun: is pbrooks arm-nptl patch already in qemu cvs?
16:15.03webjamesdo you not have a 32bit machine to test on?
16:15.35ayan4m1I can test on either, if need be
16:15.49balrog-kunwebjames: okay - i will look into it after i sort out a couple of other issues (mostly cvs administrative stuff) this week
16:15.56balrog-kunkoen: i'm afarid nope
16:16.22balrog-kunkoen: it's only for qemu-user and iirc some people believed there exists a better solution
16:16.53koenbalrog-kun: I'm afraid I need it for generating glibc locales in OE
16:17.14webjamesbalrog-kun: well no rush i'm just nosey to see how things are going, i'll get a P1, or P1+ anyway, you could try http://www.virtualbox.org/ to have a 32bit test environment
16:17.48webjamesbalrog-kun: i have been using virtualbox with much success
16:17.48balrog-kunoh yeah, the locales issue - i believe it's just a design error in the glibc build scripts
16:18.18balrog-kunwebjames: yup, i've seen it but i prefer qemu - virtualbox uses most of QEMU code anyway
16:18.55webjamesbalrog-kun: i just like the gui, call me lazy
16:19.13balrog-kun:)
16:19.25balrog-kunthere are some guis for qemu in standalone projects but i don't know how usable they are
16:19.32ayan4m1Hah I love beryl... when you compile it from svn it complains about not having the package 'beryl' installed
16:19.35balrog-kunprobably lacking compared to virtualbox
16:19.50webjamesnot very, i have tried a couple
16:20.31balrog-kunkoen: iirc psokolovsky was cooking something up to approach the glibc locales issue from a totally different side
16:21.28balrog-kunpersonally i'm sure it would be much better done on the host
16:24.37koenbalrog-kun: I'd like localegen to not need a gazillion MB of memory
16:31.00balrog-kunwebjames: btw. could you check one more thing while you have the environment set up?  if you did "-M verstilepb" instead of "-M neo" we would see if it's only neo that's broken or other machines too
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16:32.09balrog-kunif -M versatilepb crashes then it means it's working :p
16:32.20webjamesbalrog-kun: here you go: http://dpaste.com/10212/
16:32.25balrog-kunbecause u-boot.bin is compiled for the neo
16:33.04balrog-kunoops, sorry that was supposed to be "-M versatilepb" (skipped the 'a')
16:35.31webjamesbalrog-kun: http://dpaste.com/10213/
16:36.10webjamesbalrog-kun: my cpu goes to about 50% aswell
16:37.27balrog-kunoh okay, so i broke all of qemu-system-arm, not only the Neo :)
16:37.40webjamesbalrog-kun: nice... :-)
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16:42.37Vitalycounter
16:42.38alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a optimistic guess) P1: 2 days 09:38:47 (2.402 +-2.4 days) (1165;202)
16:43.11webjamesVitaly: soon, soon! :)
16:43.48Vitalyheh, its so long waiting for release
16:44.03webjamesare you going to get a phase 1?
16:44.11Vitalyyeah
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16:44.48ayan4m1Ugh I wish docomo made their good phones in gsm
16:44.59webjamesVitaly: nice, i think i'm waiting for a Phase1+ it's either one of the other for me, so it's gotta be the latter, but maybe that all depends on the discount i might receive
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16:45.27Vitalywill wifi be available in P1+?
16:45.40webjamesVitaly: yeah, i think so
16:45.46Vitalydo you know what will be the changes?
16:46.24ayan4m1I think that's sorta up to people testing it
16:46.29ayan4m1Whatever breaks in the P1 units
16:46.36Vitalyreally, the absense of wifi is the only thing that disappoints me
16:47.00webjamesVitaly: they had trouble finding a chip so it'll be in phase 1+
16:47.10webjamesnow that they've found a chip
16:47.12Vitalyi know i know
16:48.49Vitalywell, than it depends on when the P1+ devices will be available. although even if they say the date they can delay release on unspecified amount of time like it is with p1 devices now
16:49.20webjamesVitaly: we should get news of the P1+ when the P! gets released
16:49.48Vitalyyeah! hope so!
16:50.49webjamesphase 1+ should be released in june sometime
16:51.26Vitalyit will be great!
16:51.44webjamesi hope so
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17:05.39SpeedEvilYes
17:06.08SpeedEvilThe NMEA output basically give you everything you could observe on the display of any commercial GPS
17:06.38koenHDOP, GDOP?
17:06.42SpeedEvilYes
17:06.45SpeedEvilall that sort of stuff
17:07.23aloril2if not, then this might be one extra feature for free implementation over proprietary one
17:08.40koenI'm undecided between a GL -> nmea app or doing a proper gpsd plugin
17:08.47koens/doing/wanting/
17:09.40SpeedEvilThe NMEA output of gll outputs all of the stuff you might want to know normally.
17:10.06SpeedEvilThe only areas where you might want more control is to do stuff like software DGPS
17:10.15SpeedEvilAnd if you're worried about trojan binaries
17:13.46SpeedEvilEmiting GPS signals tends to piss people off.
17:13.46balrog-kunor better yet makes it execute code contained in the signal
17:14.08SpeedEvilThough it's getting ever easier and cheaper.
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17:16.13PBeckhi
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17:25.19webjamesPBeck hello
17:25.50aloril2what about signal strength/lock time? (indoor/outdoor -> different accuracy satellite positions being equal)
17:27.28SpeedEvilLook at the webpage
17:27.34SpeedEvil- the global locate one
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17:27.52SpeedEvilIt claims 5m lock in 1s - if it's warm.
17:28.07SpeedEvilI would _guess_ that this is within 3 min of the last 1s power-up
17:29.03jserv2balrog-kun: hi
17:29.59balrog-kunjserv2: hi there
17:31.00jserv2balrog-kun: I would like to make use of usb net emulation for qemu, so I pass "-net user -net nic,model=usb -usbdevice net:0 -redir tcp:9022:192.168.0.202:22" arguments.
17:32.08jserv2balrog-kun: it seems to be working inside qemu. ifconfig dumps usb0 for me. http://jserv.sayya.org/misc/gta01-usbnet-qemu.png
17:32.32jserv2balrog-kun: however, I can't do ssh connection from host to emulated target.
17:32.51jserv2ie. "ssh -p 9022 root@localhost" doesn't work.
17:32.55jserv2balrog-kun: any idea?
17:32.58balrog-kunjserv2: that will try to use the OHCI host in the Neo, it's not really supported by the kernel and the userspace - that's one thing
17:33.20balrog-kunjserv2: second thing is slirp is kindof broken on 64 bit and usb-net is also broken
17:33.29jserv2balrog-kun: ok.
17:33.38jserv2got it!
17:34.03balrog-kunsometimes i got the usb-net to work (even with ssh), but on the "spitz" machine and ona 32bit host and it wasn't reliable
17:35.02balrog-kunjserv2: i recommend trying the new gadgetfs support, it's very reliable for me (copied 30MB files over scp to the Neo)
17:35.16jserv2balrog-kun: cool. I will try it.
17:35.28jserv2balrog-kun: thanks
17:35.38balrog-kunthere's a small HOWTO at the end of the wiki page
17:35.51balrog-kun(but still it's not so easy)
17:41.39PBeckhi webjames
17:49.43webjamesPBeck hey
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17:50.30webjamesXorA, were you playing with lego?
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17:54.41aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wishlist:Human_screening]] [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[Main_Page/bg]] [[Translation_HOWTO/bg]]
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17:56.53woglindewebjames aou can build nice robots with it
17:56.56woglindeyu
17:56.57woglindeyou
17:57.17webjamesyeah, i remember lego technix or something
17:57.32woglindehm right
17:57.38woglindebut there are serval h3800
17:57.49woglindewhich you can programm with gcc or java
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20:04.58DukeOfURLcounter
20:04.59alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a optimistic guess) P1: 2 days 07:57:36 (2.332 +-2.3 days) (1166;202)
20:14.48CoreDump|homecould anyone w/ working GPS verify that after an apm -s neo no longer gets a lock?
20:15.33alphaoneCoreDump|home: working GPS? What did I miss?
20:16.11pH5CoreDump|home: is there a trace uploaded already?
20:16.17CoreDump|homealphaone: pH5 found out how to get output
20:16.35CoreDump|homepH5: I don't think so
20:19.28CoreDump|home!oebug 2308
20:19.29alphaoneCool
20:19.29cdbot2* * Bug 2308, Status: NEW, Created: 2007-05-13 12:40
20:19.31cdbot2* * bugs.openembedded.org(AT)rolf.leggewie.biz: spitz looses time while suspended
20:19.32cdbot2* * http://bugs.openembedded.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2308
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20:56.23Ifaistos~ping RP
20:56.25aptpong RP
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21:16.02pH5I've put up some traces at linuxtogo.org/~ph5/tmp/gllin (a cold start, a hot start and a somewhat longer trace)
21:16.12SpeedEvil:)
21:16.23SpeedEvilOk to point at tehm from wiki?
21:16.46pH5sure, if they're any good.
21:19.08SpeedEvilHow to cite you 'ph5 on IRC'?
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21:23.11pH5SpeedEvil: now we have citation rules on the wiki? :)
21:23.24SpeedEvilNo.
21:23.32SpeedEvilIt's nice to give credit though.
21:28.26pH5SpeedEvil: ok, I won't be pleased until somebody figures out this protocol either way ;)
21:29.25ElrondI'll try next week. :-)
21:30.00CoreDump|homehehe, it would be funny to have a working reverse-engineered OSS driver before the "official" driver is released
21:30.43SpeedEvilNot happening in the next weekish - which may be when it arrives.
21:30.59ElrondRight.
21:31.00SpeedEvilgpgll is on the p1 phones already sent AIUI.
21:32.03CoreDump|homebecause someone forgot to remove it I guess
21:32.52SpeedEvilWhy?
21:34.28ElrondSpeedEvil - Because it's in some "testing package" and people assume, that it's a FIC-internal-testing-thingy.
21:35.07CoreDump|homeand /home/root/DM2 doesn't exactly sound like a good installation path
21:36.09SpeedEvilAh
21:37.01Sufflopecounter
21:37.01alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a optimistic guess) P1: 2 days 07:11:35 (2.300 +-2.3 days) (1167;202)
21:37.16Sufflopecool 05-10 is 3 days in the past :)
21:37.53Sufflopeseriously, any idea on when actual P1 buying will be possible ?
21:37.54Elrondaloril - I guess, you can make 5-20 the new target ;o)
21:38.06ElrondSufflope - No idea.
21:38.17Sufflope:(
21:38.46SufflopeOK I guess some more weeks of patience won't be much compared to months already spent
21:39.09SpeedEvils/week/month/
21:41.28ElrondDo we have _any_ info on the "first run"?
21:42.24CoreDump|homethe rumour is that it consists of ~2000 neos but that's basically it
21:48.29ElrondSo we don't even know, if it happened. ;)
21:49.09ayan4m1Well by the time they're taking orders I'd imagine there would be some stock already manufactured
21:52.38balrog-kunnope, they will wait for the money to come in and go drinking, and what's left will go for (first) design and (then) manufacture
21:53.41aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[Hammerhead_protocol]]
21:54.14ayan4m1Haha fair enough
22:00.33Elrondbalrog-kun - *lol*
22:00.46ElrondI know, why I leave the risk-investments to you guys. ;o)
22:02.26ayan4m1They get 2000 orders, they get wasted and end up shipping boxes filled with empties and a single black market copy of Spiderman 3
22:02.42ayan4m1The sad thing is that the guy who got the copy of spiderman is the luckiest of the bunch
22:03.39ElrondNope. He will be caugt by the anti-piracy group. ,o)
22:03.57ayan4m1Haha
22:04.02ayan4m1Those dvd sniffing dogs
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23:08.38daniel_bergaminihow functional is the phone that will be out in May?
23:10.12Elronddaniel_bergamini - It will probably be usable to make calls an receive calls. But that's it.
23:10.20Elrond... oh and have a running linux with X11.
23:15.13balrog-kunand show off
23:16.21bmidgleythe hardware has a lot of potential but needs more apps to show it off
23:16.46bmidgleylots of possibilities in bluetooth, gps tricks
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23:17.53bmidgleymultimedia of course
23:20.34CoreDump|homeindeed
23:29.59bmidgleyis there a command-line hack to get my p1 to turn on gsm
23:30.09bmidgleyor is it just not going to work with the current image...?
23:30.44CIA-24openmoko: 03andrew * r1952 10/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973/hw/ (s3c2410.c usb.h): Optimise the PIC, make interrupt arbitration optional. Add missing definitions.
23:30.51CoreDump|homeAFAIK the dialer if b0rked
23:32.09balrog-kunbmidgley: power up, yes, you can power it up and down through /sys since p0
23:32.14CoreDump|home863 upgraded, 79 newly installed, 17 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
23:32.17CoreDump|homehmmm
23:32.23balrog-kunand even use a hacky cmdline alternative dialer
23:32.27CoreDump|homeI should really upgrade
23:35.32XorALaibsch: 1071 is not related to 2289
23:35.47XorApiss wrong channel
23:36.49CoreDump|home!oebug 2289
23:36.50cdbot2* * Bug 2289, Status: ASSIGNED, Created: 2007-05-09 15:10
23:36.51cdbot2* * marioabajo(AT)gmail.com: Sandisk ConnectPlus oops
23:36.52cdbot2* * http://bugs.openembedded.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2289
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23:41.42bmidgleybalrog-kun: I can't find in the wiki power control for gsm
23:43.55balrog-kunlemme check it
23:53.41aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]]
23:56.05ayan4m1balrog-kun: Is the most recent qemu broken?
23:58.19Psibmidgley, you want to set the gsm transmit power?
23:58.43balrog-kunayan4m1: for one user, yes, for me it works

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