IRC log for #openmoko on 20070506

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00:56.12darkNiGHTSso, is the $350 price point solid?
00:56.13alorildarkNiGHTS: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
00:56.25abraxa_Yep, just add shipping and handling
00:56.44darkNiGHTShmm, i might get one, it seems like a lot of money to spend on a phone though
00:57.02darkNiGHTSi think i'll wait until some software is developed for it to consider it more to see if its really worth it
00:57.09abraxa_Sure, that's fine
00:57.19darkNiGHTSwhat is the processor comparable to?
00:57.20abraxa_With phase 2 you'll have WiFi anyway
00:57.26darkNiGHTScool
00:58.02darkNiGHTSis it about as fast as most pocket PCs today?
00:58.04abraxa_Comparable? People mentioned that it'd be comparable to a Pentium 100 but I'm tempted to assume that it's faster than that
00:58.33darkNiGHTShmm, okay
00:59.16darkNiGHTSokay, i gotta go back to homework now, thanks for the help :P
00:59.22abraxa_Drop by whenever you want
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00:59.25abraxa_Enjoy ;3
00:59.37darkNiGHTSokay, sounds good, i'll be sure to keep up to date with this
01:11.36aloril(script) openmoko-devel: Werner Almesberger <werner at openmoko.org> Re: Finger text input idea
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01:35.36aloril(script) openmoko-devel: Werner Almesberger <werner at openmoko.org> inwheel version 1, and new algorithm idea
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05:36.36aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wishlist:Wikipedia_Mirror]]
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07:36.36aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[Wish_List]]
07:38.25Hopscotchgood morning
07:40.40xkr47good morning!
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08:11.34PBeckhi
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08:33.09MandarinoHi
08:33.11Mandarinocounter
08:33.11alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: a week, a day 15:26:54 (8.644 +-3.5 days) (1098;195)
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09:23.40CIA-24openmoko: 03laforge * r1915 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-s3c2440.patch:
09:23.40CIA-24openmoko: * Fix S3C2440 support in the MMC/SD driver
09:23.40CIA-24openmoko: * This also fixes 2410 SD card support problems (http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=164) caused by MMC style clocking rather than SD style clocking
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09:47.51CoreDump|homeLaF0rge: Does this commit solve the "SD not always found / accessible after reboot" problem?
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10:28.12Moo^^balrog-kun: so there is no USB driver for qemu?
10:28.16Moo^^s/no/now
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10:30.29MukundaIs it possible to buy an openmoko yet for development? And are there any requirments you need to fulfill to get one early?
10:30.30alorilMukunda: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
10:31.30MukundaNeat.
10:31.48Moo^^Mukunda: Phase 1 counter: <aloril> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: a week, a day 15:26:54 (8.644 +-3.5 days) (1098;195)
10:34.53pavlemIf I want to update my openmoko to latest software... is it enough to use dfu-util to update kernel and rootfilesystem?
10:34.53alorilpavlem: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
10:34.56thomasg_Mukunda, phase 1 means everybody who wants can buy a device. its for developers and testers, but everyone can buy
10:35.14mickeylpavlem: yes, that should do
10:35.32Mukundathomasg_: yes I see, hmm but a new version with faster cpu will be out for the consumer release... And the price of these is a bit.. :-\
10:35.53mickeylpavelm: i didn't have a chance to test uboot on Bv3 lately. I'll report when i did
10:35.55thomasg_hm, imho the price is ok
10:36.04hadsI agree
10:36.18thomasg_but if you can wait for july you probably should wait
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10:36.27Mukundathomasg_: the price is great... But just I don't want to buy two of them, as I'd like to get the version with the faster cpu...
10:36.41pavelmmickeyl: But given that I do not hack the uboot, I should not brick my hw, right?
10:36.42hadsFair enough
10:36.55thomasg_yes, but if you buy p1+ in summer and bought p1 before youll get the p1+ cheaper
10:36.58MukundaHm July? Sorry, I haven't been following the officially mailing list, just checked wikipedia which said consumer release was in Sept.
10:36.59pavelm(I do not want to set up JTAG).
10:37.19thomasg_but nobody knows how much discount there will be. I think they will tell us at release of p1
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10:39.14Mukundathomasg_: sorry for asking stuff I'm sure I could find out for myself, but is p1+ the version that will be released for consumers. ie: the one with the faster cpu?
10:39.28*** part/#openmoko KrzysiekBielicki (n=krzysio@87-205-192-26.adsl.inetia.pl)
10:41.55mickeylyes. p1+ is the supposed hardware refresh that's on sale in autumn
10:43.12*** part/#openmoko wansti (n=wansti@b062.apm.etc.tu-bs.de)
10:43.46MukundaHm, guess I'll see how much the discount will be.
10:45.48balrog-kunMoo^^: kindof
10:46.15balrog-kunMoo^^: i need to add some commands to make it usable yet, and write some usage information
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10:49.19MukundaAh awesome, P1+ might have wifi... That'd really open up the ability for cheap voip hotspots.
10:49.50Magonpavelm: you can try it in qemu
10:51.34pavelmmagon: qemu is hard to set up...
10:51.53thomasg_Mukunda, p1+ is the pre-consumer device. it features the same hardware afaik, but it will get released 2 months before
10:51.58pavelmI try to do ./dfu-util -a 3 -D ./uImage-2.6.21.1-moko10-r0_0_1883_0-fic-gta01.bin .. and it just hangs.
10:52.45thomasg_and p1+ might not have wifi, it WILL have wifi, thats nearby for sure :)
10:54.00pavelmWhat is the right time to start flashing? Just after clean shutdown? from uboot menu?
10:54.13mickeylit only listens from within uboot menu
10:54.43mickeylIIRC
10:55.17pavelmI get More than one DFU capable USB device found, you might try `--list' and then disconnect all but one device
10:55.36mickeylsupply the device you want via extra arguments
10:55.40mickeylto dfu-util
10:55.47mickeyldunno which params offhand
10:55.55pavelmHeh... strange, it thought my usb bluetooth  can be upgraded..?
10:55.56MukundaHmm, so it was impossible to have the gps and gsm parts to be free software supported... errm, meaning able to work without binary only firmware?
10:56.47mickeylyes. gsm is impossible because of the law, gps is impossible because of the manufacturer. at least the latter might change in further hardware...
10:56.52pavelmmickeyl: It works now, thanks.
10:56.53MagonMukunda: binary only firmware is not a problem, binary only driver is a problem
10:57.25Magonmickeyl: why gsm is imposible due to law?
10:57.44mickeylwell
10:57.53mickeylapart from the problem that there is no free GSM stack
10:57.58mickeylyou won't get a certification for that
10:58.01MukundaYou'd be able to do funny things on the network that the network owners wouldn't allow probably.
10:58.23Magoncertification to GSM spec ?
10:58.54Moo^^You need CE certification at least in Europe. It covers more stuff than just the GSM
10:59.04pavelmmickeyl: Are you sure? I guess BSD-licensed stack would be easy to certify, you'd just not be able to hack it...
10:59.05mickeylyeah. you are not allowed to operate a device on the GSM network that isn't certified
10:59.11Moo^^for example, things like "no little parts which children could eat"
10:59.38Magonbut CE is just for radio signal strength and freq
10:59.39mickeylpavelm: even if there was a stack... no community would be able to pay for the certification.
11:00.01mickeylbesides... the general legislation doesn't _want_ an open GSM stack, but that's a different issue
11:00.04pavelmmickeyl: Agreed with that. (Plus, opensource stack you can't upgrade would suck, anyway).
11:00.47Magonok so no GSM open stack
11:00.58Moo^^mickeyl: there will be money for it - i am sure of it
11:01.00MukundaAnyway... If wifi can get down, it'd be possible to subvert the old GSM networks, by setting up wireless voip hotspots.
11:01.25pavelmSome people (chaoscamp has a link) are basically building open-source gsm stack. They want to decode gsm, intercept messages, decipher calls, etc.
11:01.43mickeylyes, software controlled radio is very promising
11:01.55pavelmouch ouch, got dfu-error 71 while trying to flash rootfs.
11:02.24mickeylpavelm: if you have still a very ancient uboot, then it might have the power-down-on-timeout bug
11:02.29pavelmis ./openmoko-devel-image-fic-gta01-20070501054014.rootfs.jffs2 right thing to flash ?
11:02.36mickeylyes
11:02.40pavelmaha, so I simply need to press aux button few times, right?
11:02.43mickeylyeah
11:02.54mickeyli would recommend upgrading uboot in that case
11:02.55CoreDump|homeor upgrade u-boot
11:02.58mickeyl*nod*
11:03.53pavelmmickeyl: I'm scared. If I mess up u-boot upgrade, I have a brick.
11:04.10mickeylpavelm: you don't have a debug board???
11:04.18pavelmmickeyl: I consider even kernel upgrade big deal.
11:04.26pavelmmickeyl: Yes, I do, but I do not know how to use it.
11:04.29mickeylhehe
11:04.31mickeylok
11:05.02mickeyli'm afraid in this stage of development we will have a lot of upgrades to follow
11:05.03pavelm(My original plan was to leave flash intact, and just do complete install on SD card)
11:05.22mickeylyeah, booting from SD is good plan
11:05.29CoreDump|homepavelm: unbricking neo is absolutely painless thanks to the devirginizer thingy =)
11:06.08*** join/#openmoko rob_w|tablet (n=bob@p85.212.3.105.tisdip.tiscali.de)
11:06.23pavelmcoredump: I guess I could do it... I'd just prefer not to. I already bricked my zaurus once... to find that they have two levels of BIOS, but it took me a day to recover it.
11:06.41mickeyl*nod* it takes me always a day to recover my Neo as well
11:06.42CoreDump|homeI'm just saying
11:06.49mickeylbut at least it's possible
11:06.56mickeylconsidering that a whole lot of devices aren't
11:07.01mickeyl(recoverable)
11:07.09CoreDump|homeMy very first u-boot upgrade went wrong -> brick =D
11:07.23mickeylrumours are the next major new hardware will get NOR
11:07.25pavelmmickey: Yes, openmoko is better than average in this respect.
11:07.27mickeyl:D
11:07.51buzmickeyl: next major=1.5?
11:07.53pavelmHow does NOR help? ... aha, that was the case of zaurus, too. NOR flash with "deeper bios".
11:07.57thomasg_I like the booting from sd idea, because I could install gentoo on sd and leave the openmoko inside untouched :)
11:08.01mickeylbuz: yea
11:08.05mickeylpavelm: exactly
11:08.11mickeylNOR = safety net :)
11:08.20buzi hope 1.5 is released on time ;)
11:08.24mickeylheh
11:08.26pavelmmickeyl: Just write protect the uboot?
11:09.02CoreDump|homepavelm: w/ an ro u-boot you couldn't ship bug-fixes for it
11:09.10pavelmCan someone check http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Flashing_openmoko for obvious mistakes?
11:09.26pavelmcoredump: yes, just make sure there are no bugs in uboot :-)_
11:09.35CoreDump|homehehe
11:09.39mickeylpavelm: newer systems should know names for partitions
11:09.42mickeyli.e.
11:09.45mickeyldfu-utils -a rootfs
11:09.50mickeylless error prone than "3"
11:10.00mickeyl(5)
11:10.17CoreDump|homepavelm: http://rafb.net/p/9xCGfu11.html <- that's known-working
11:10.34mickeylplease guys, use names
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11:10.47rob_w|tabletany idea how i can prevent xorg to open the ps2 port ?
11:10.48mickeylperhaps we change partitioning
11:11.01mickeylrob_w: hacking the source :/
11:11.11mickeylrob_w: or removing the device nodce
11:11.13mickeylnode, even
11:11.19rob_w|tabletmickeyl, odd enough
11:11.21mickeyl~lart xorg for unconditionally opening all input nodes
11:11.21aptsqueezes xorg till xorg turns blue like papa smurf for unconditionally opening all input nodes
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11:11.32rob_w|tabletyeah
11:11.37pavelmcoredump: well, my update seemed to go well, too.
11:11.50rob_w|tabletthis is a bad habit
11:12.23pavelmcoredump: Now I'm looking at oops in jffs_gcd_mtd4, then system hang in "configuring web".
11:13.06CoreDump|homepavelm: you did erase the rootfs via u-boot before flashing right?
11:13.16mickeylah yes
11:13.20CoreDump|homepavelm: your ancient u-boot kinda requires that =)
11:13.21mickeylold uboot has problems in dfu-upgrade
11:13.41pavelmaha, ok, no, I did not do that.
11:13.46mickeylcan only safely upgrade if the new image is larger than the old one
11:13.50mickeylbbaib
11:14.42pavelm...should I add some zeros at the end of jffs2 file? :-)
11:15.09CoreDump|homepadding to MAX_ROOTFS_SIZE would work, yes
11:15.25pavelmwhat is max_rootfs_size?
11:15.29CoreDump|homebut seriously, upgrade u-boot =) The old one is bug-ridden
11:15.45CoreDump|homepavelm: no idea.
11:16.47pavelmjffs2 is currently 27MB, will make it 32MB or so.
11:17.30CoreDump|homewhy don't you erase the rootfs via u-boot cmdline?
11:19.33pavelmcoredump: hmm, I did not realize that possibility. I added zeros, already :-)
11:23.30aloril2pavelm: some have accidentally flashed wrong u-boot image, file name is a bit confusing (v4b3 vs v3 or something like that)
11:24.18pavelmaloril: Yes... I've seen the "feel free to pick up your uboot" ridle.
11:24.23pavelms/ridle/riddle/
11:26.14pavelmnext attempt, I added 3MB of zeros at the end.
11:28.04pavelmtoo bad, still the same oops.
11:28.47pavelmhow much flash do we have?
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11:31.02CoreDump|homeI can't find the u-boot command to erase the rootfs again, I'm afraid
11:32.40CoreDump|homepavelm: GTA01Bv3#  nand erase clean rootfs
11:35.50pavelmaha, minicom /dev/ttyACM0
11:36.07CoreDump|homepress and hold 911-key while powering up neo should drop you into the menu. At this point u-boot is available via /dev/ttyACM0
11:36.36aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[Flashing_openmoko]] [[Dfu-util]] [[Supported_microSD_cards]]
11:37.29pavelmyep, it looks like erase succeeded.
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11:40.08CoreDump|homebbl
11:40.31pavelmthanks for help, core.
11:41.02CoreDump|homenp
11:45.18pavelmgood, erasing helped, now I am at 'calibrate touchscreen' phase.
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11:54.00pavelm...good, it boots. But I tried to enter terminal, and whole system crashed :-(.
11:56.10*** join/#openmoko vaiursch (n=erwin@84-72-190-106.dclient.hispeed.ch)
11:57.19balrog-kunhow does crashed openmoko look?
11:58.06pavelmbalrog: just dead, does not react to anything.
11:58.13balrog-kuni've only seen lockups (which probably meant there was an Oops message in the console, but the console was not visible)
11:58.15madwootawhat, no green screen of death?!
11:58.16balrog-kunah okay
11:58.30alphaonepavelm: The very old u-boot has only 64MB usable. If you attempt to use more then you will overwrite the content of the lower RAM
11:58.46alphaonepavelm: Is it still the stock u-boot?
11:58.52balrog-kunand get an Oops
11:59.08pavelmalphaone: Yes, I still have stock uboot. But I get X locking up, not uboot.
11:59.16alphaoneYou should definitely upgrade then.
11:59.26balrog-kunpavelm: yes, that's most probably cause by u-boot
11:59.42balrog-kun*caused
11:59.43pavelmalphaone: Is uboot version really important once kernel is loaded?
11:59.49alphaonepavelm: Because u-boot is not using memory above the 64Meg limit.
12:00.02balrog-kunu-boot initialises the RAM banks, if it doesn't do that the kernel cannot use them either
12:00.07alphaoneYou could try booting with mem=64M option and see if that works
12:00.23pavelmOk, that looks like an explanation.
12:00.43pavelmIs u-boot-gta01v3-r5 what I want on phase0 machine?
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12:01.05alphaonepavelm: u-boot sets certain pins as address pins for the memory. Or rather it forgot to set the most significant pin in the old version.
12:01.17alphaoneno.
12:01.23alphaonegta01bv3
12:02.07balrog-kuni think you want the latest gta01bv3 build available
12:02.41alphaoneyeah, basically
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12:03.50pavelmOk, u-boot-gta01bv3-r5_9877d7dcd1eebe61aa5d8b8ffe9c048ea426e6f6_0_1910.bin for me, then.
12:04.59alphaoneAnd keep your finger on the aux button
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12:06.45pavelmMy openmoko survived uboot update; good.
12:09.33*** join/#openmoko serzholino (n=serzholi@16x.zp.ua)
12:11.25pavelmI still get no sound with the latest (may-01) software :-(
12:11.31pavelmI can do a call, but I can't hear anything.
12:14.42robsterpavelm: are you running the magic alsa commands?
12:15.12pavelmrobster: No, I'm not. I was hoping that would be fixed in may-01 version...?
12:15.42pavelmaha... so the software lets me call, even when the gsm is not registered to the network.
12:15.54pavelmYes, theres "antenna ?" hint in the task bar.
12:16.04pavelmBut no, it should not tell me that call is connected.
12:16.27robsteri think the dialer doesn't work.
12:17.03robsterthe gsm integration is being rejigged.
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12:19.56pavelmrobster: Yes, looks so. I'll try to turn off pin at the test sim card.
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12:24.51MukundaWill it be possible to run the openmoko without the binary gsm firmware? As I really have little use for a phone.
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12:27.20MukundaI would actually be using it just as a PDA mostly and something to practicing developing on, just being a big Free software advocate I'd rather rip of the binary firmware even though it'd mean I lose some functionality.
12:28.03pavelmmukunda: The firmware actually runs on separate cpu.
12:28.18balrog-kunMukunda: yes, OpenMoko is not being made as a phone specific distro
12:28.24pavelmmukunda: So just keep that cpu powered down.
12:28.29Mukundapavelm: ahh.
12:29.10MukundaSo it's not actually user space firmware, like we've been seeing with a lot of new pc devices?
12:29.39robsterMukunda: if it runs on the host then it isn't firmware.
12:29.53balrog-kuni think there will even be PDAs using OpenMoko released later this year (supposedly), after Neo
12:30.13MukundaOoh hm, that is what I'd actually be more interested in.
12:30.57MukundaRight now though, the openmoko seems to be cheaper and better than any PDA out there in that price range.
12:33.31MukundaIf they can find a GPS chip that would allow a 100% Free software PDA then I'd buy two of the things just to support them.
12:33.41MukundaSo hopefully they'll do it.
12:34.48*** join/#openmoko koen (n=koen@dominion.kabel.utwente.nl)
12:34.59pavelmmukunda: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hammerhead_protocol -- feel free to help.
12:37.28pavelmuh, oh. Sound is not enabled in may-01 build
12:39.28MukundaHm that's some impressive work on the hammerhead thing, well to me, but I'm pretty newbie.
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12:47.46SpeedEvilMukunda: A problem is that the hammerhead chip is fundamentally better performance wise than most of the NMEA output chips.
12:47.49SpeedEvilAnd cheaper.
12:47.55SpeedEvilAnd lower power.
12:48.04SpeedEvilSo, with a GPL driver, it'd be ideal.
12:48.11SpeedEvilEven without. It's not a kernel mode driver.
12:48.41SpeedEvilIt's a userspace thing that connects to the GPS serail port and GPSd
12:48.51SpeedEvilYou can chroot it in its own little box if you want.
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13:03.14MukundaSpeedEvil: yeah, neat... If a GPL driver can be made that'd be awesome.. Shame the company isn't willing to help.
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13:11.21SpeedEvilPersonally, I don't really care. As long as a working binary is shipped.
13:11.49SpeedEvilIf the binary driver can be chrooted, which it seems it can, and have assorted other walls put round it, there isn't a security worry.
13:12.08SpeedEvilAnd if a GPL driver can be produced at leisure, that's fine IMO.
13:13.52*** join/#openmoko koen (n=koen@dominion.kabel.utwente.nl)
13:14.01mjrI do care but yeah, it's a good tradeoff considering that it's very likely said GPL driver will be produced at leisure
13:15.02mjr(meanwhile, I will be using the binary one only mildly grudgingly ;] )
13:19.29holtmannI have problem with openocd and my broken Bv4 phone. Anyone that could help.
13:20.37pavelmholtmann: bv4... I do not even know such thing exists.
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13:22.38mickeylholtmann: i'm not an openocd expert, but what's your problem?
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13:28.27DukeOfURL_Seems there is a sea change regarding VoIP, what with the Verizon/Vonage verdict and AT&T/SMB turning-off VoIP customers...
13:28.38DukeOfURL_Make WiFi even more important...
13:29.11DukeOfURL_s/Make/Makes/
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13:32.19SpeedEvilIn some places.
13:33.22holtmannmickeyl: I made the huge mistake to flash the v3 bootloader into v4 hardware. It is now a vibrating brick.
13:33.31mickeyluh oh
13:33.33DukeOfURL_We have a local cable provider (Comcast) that purposly introduces jitter into voice media streams
13:33.57mickeylholtmann: i recommend using the devirginator
13:34.07mickeylholtmann: this wraps openocd usage
13:34.18holtmannI am trying that. I have openocd connected, but deviriginator doesn't work.
13:34.39holtmannwaiting for target halted...
13:34.39holtmanntimed out while waiting for target halt
13:34.39holtmannrbp 0x33f80000
13:34.54holtmannmww 0x32000040 0x32100000
13:34.54holtmannerror: target must be halted for memory accesses
13:35.06mickeylplease check FPC seating
13:35.19holtmannpavelm: Yes it exists and I just bricked mine last week.
13:35.29holtmannmickeyl: Explain please?
13:35.39mickeylthe FPC is very picky
13:35.43mickeylit must fully seat in the slots
13:35.50mickeylcheck whether it sits correctly
13:36.36aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[Flashing_openmoko]]
13:37.22holtmannI was pure accident since I was previously working on the v3 hardware.
13:37.53philippeholtmann: trust me, I know how it feels :-)
13:38.31holtmannCrap. No I openocd doesn't start anymore.
13:40.55pavelmBv4 is phase0 + fix the power consumption during sleep + fix the GSM sidetone?
13:41.30holtmannError:   jtag.c:1236 jtag_examine_chain(): JTAG communication failure, check connection, JTAG interface, target power etc.
13:41.38mickeylholtmann: this is almost always a power problem
13:41.42holtmannI get this now all the time. Previously it was working.
13:41.44mickeylholtmann: to properly reset
13:41.51mickeyla) unconnect everything
13:41.54mickeylb) remove battery
13:41.58holtmannDid that two times now.
13:42.00mickeylc) connect FPC
13:42.06mickeyld) press power button for 2 seconds
13:42.22mickeyle) run openocd
13:42.36mickeylc.2) reattach debug board USB
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13:42.56mickeyloh, and be sure to use a powered battery....
13:43.12holtmannopenocd now works again.
13:43.15*** join/#openmoko SirCrow (n=sircrow@sd511685b.adsl.wanadoo.nl)
13:43.30mickeylgood
13:43.35mickeyltry reset halt
13:43.39mickeylbefore running devirg
13:43.50mickeylif it doesn't halt then you still have connection problems
13:44.23holtmanntarget not halted
13:44.23holtmannwait_halt
13:44.23holtmannwaiting for target halted...
13:44.23holtmanntimed out while waiting for target halt
13:44.23holtmannThis is the problem.
13:44.36mickeylhmm
13:44.50mickeyli'm lost there
13:45.18mickeyl<PROTECTED>
13:45.25mickeylmight ping them
13:45.27holtmannI used the openocd from SVN. Should be okay since all of Werner's patches seem to be integrated.
13:45.27holtmannWarning: arm7_9_common.c:1378 arm7_9_resume(): target not halted
13:45.27holtmannError:   target.c:1334 handle_wait_halt_command(): timed out while waiting for target halt
13:45.28holtmannError:   breakpoints.c:134 breakpoint_remove(): no breakpoint at address 0x33f80000 found
13:45.30holtmannFrom openocd.
13:46.54holtmannNo difference.
13:46.54holtmannActually it does reset halt as first command. So that is a no op.
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13:47.20mickeyldarn
13:47.38mickeylgot 1.9 of that lib?
13:48.07holtmannYes.
13:48.15holtmannThe halt is the problem.
13:49.43mickeyllet me upload my configuration to pastebin to compare
13:49.53mickeylthat'll take some minutes (booting linux machine)
13:51.00holtmannDo you think that I completely bricked it or is it possible to revive it.
13:51.10mickeylit is always possible to revive it
13:51.20holtmannBtw. the vibrating brick was not a joke. Once it is on, it vibrates.
13:51.46mickeylmight disconnect the vibrator for now
13:52.01mickeylproblem are GPIO changes between v3 and v4
13:52.56holtmannDo I need a different version of openocd (other than latest SVN) or a different debug board.
13:52.58mickeylpastebin.ca/473874
13:54.35holtmannworking_area is commented out, but otherwise it is the same.
13:55.25mickeylhmm. perhaps the FPC is broken. please mail to -devel. i'm really out of my depth w/ openocd
13:55.41mickeylI'm hoping wpwrak or LaF0rge come up later today
13:56.11mickeylit's 22 in taipeh and 11 in buenos aires
13:56.16mickeylshould be a good time
13:57.48holtmannLet me try another cable. I have three of them with me. However the debug board still has the old VID/PID.
13:57.57holtmannBut it is the Debug Board 2.
13:58.26mickeylmight flash the eeprom
13:58.44mickeyli wouldn't trust Taiwan to have it prepared correctly...
13:58.46mickeyl*cough*
13:59.59holtmannNo difference. Okay where is the howto to flash the debug board.
14:00.32mickeylhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Debug_Board
14:01.10*** join/#openmoko daniel_bergamini (n=danieber@72-173-29-109.cust.wildblue.net)
14:03.04wanstimickeyl: have you got a few minutes to give me access to the artwork repository?
14:03.57mickeylwansti: run htpasswd -bm <someFile> <yourNickName> <yourPassword>
14:04.02mickeyland mail the output to me
14:04.07wanstiokay
14:04.24mickeyl(mickey@openmoko.org)
14:07.16holtmannmickeyl: Even with the flashed debug board. Same issue.
14:07.30mickeylholtmann: ok, sorry, then you need to wait for werner or harald
14:07.32*** join/#openmoko koen (n=koen@dominion.kabel.utwente.nl)
14:08.50*** join/#openmoko SirCrow (n=sircrow@sd511685b.adsl.wanadoo.nl)
14:09.15holtmannT:  Bus=02 Lev=02 Prnt=116 Port=00 Cnt=01 Dev#=117 Spd=12  MxCh= 0
14:09.15holtmannD:  Ver= 2.00 Cls=00(>ifc ) Sub=00 Prot=00 MxPS= 8 #Cfgs=  1
14:09.15holtmannP:  Vendor=1457 ProdID=5118 Rev= 4.00
14:09.15holtmannS:  Manufacturer=??????????????
14:09.15holtmannS:  Product=???????????????????????
14:09.17holtmannUps.
14:09.49wanstimickeyl: done
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14:12.53koenhey holtmann
14:13.05holtmannHi.
14:13.24mickeylwansti: key added. recheckout the artwork directory via https and you should be able to rw
14:14.37mickeylwansti: i didn't forget to record Sabine btw., but since we're right within moving, we didn't have time. I will send you the recording in early June
14:14.57holtmannkoen: My v4 hardware is still broken :(
14:15.03wanstimickeyl: okay, nice :-)
14:15.22koenholtmann: I'm still on v3
14:15.29koenholtmann: attending GUADEC?
14:16.19holtmannI should, but I would need a sponsor for hotel and flights. So maybe not.
14:17.43koenI'm in the UK anyway, so my flight to birmingham is £0.04
14:17.51koen(+£20 tax)
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14:19.13*** join/#openmoko ml8128_ (n=ml8128@86.73.139.58)
14:19.51wanstii'll commit my stuff under /trunk/src/target/OM-2007/artwork/sounds... that okay?
14:20.00mickeylyep
14:21.39koenholtmann: any sign of a 3.10 release yet?
14:22.14holtmannWe have to replace one fork() with a queue integrated into the main loop. Other than that, it's ready.
14:22.24*** join/#openmoko _rob (n=rob@ACB53E05.ipt.aol.com)
14:22.48koencool
14:23.35CIA-24openmoko: 03wansti * r1916 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/artwork/sounds/ringtone_thereisnophone.mp3:
14:23.35CIA-24openmoko: first ringtone (will be replaced with a better recording soon, this is
14:23.35CIA-24openmoko: mainly for testing svn access :-))
14:23.45mickeyltadaaa
14:23.47mickeyl:)
14:23.49wansti:-)
14:24.34pavelmbye, everyone.
14:25.08mickeylcu pavelm
14:28.24*** join/#openmoko LaF0rge (n=laforge@61-216-94-21.dynamic.hinet.net)
14:30.52holtmannLaF0rge: I can halt the chip using openocd.
14:30.57holtmanns/can/can't/
14:31.20holtmannAnd I just put the phone back together :(
14:32.11holtmannLaF0rge: I made the mistake and flashed the v4 boot loader into the v3 hardware.
14:33.17LaF0rgeholtmann: you have to do a bit of trickery
14:33.30holtmannCan you guide me through it.
14:33.49LaF0rgeholtmann: e.g. push down reset button on debug board, then power up the device, then issue 'halt' command on openocd, then release reset button
14:34.38holtmannJust a few seconds to setup it up again. I just packed everything back together.
14:35.24LaF0rgeif it doesn't work, just keep retrying ;)
14:35.55LaF0rgeand as new bootloader, make sure you use bv3 (the B is important
14:37.06holtmannWhat is the best download place for all the latest stuff.
14:37.36LaF0rgeholtmann: well, since you have a broken device now, the good old lowlevel_foo + breakpoint method is the only way
14:38.02holtmannWhat link should I use?
14:38.15LaF0rgelink for description or link for u-boot?
14:38.26LaF0rgehttp://buildhost.openmoko.org/tmp/deploy/images/u-boot-gta01bv4-r5_9877d7dcd1eebe61aa5d8b8ffe9c048ea426e6f6_0_1910.bin
14:39.18LaF0rgeoh, sorry
14:39.20LaF0rgethat's Bv4
14:39.31LaF0rgehttp://buildhost.openmoko.org/tmp/deploy/images/u-boot-gta01bv3-r5_9877d7dcd1eebe61aa5d8b8ffe9c048ea426e6f6_0_1910.bin
14:39.41holtmannNo. It is v4 hardware.
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14:40.28*** part/#openmoko rejon (n=rejon@132.207.220.98)
14:40.34LaF0rge22:32  <holtmann> LaF0rge: I made the mistake and flashed the v4 boot loader into
14:40.34LaF0rge<PROTECTED>
14:40.46holtmannI meant the other way around. Sorry.
14:40.50LaF0rgeah, ok
14:44.41LaF0rgelet me know once you've managed to halt the cpu
14:44.51holtmannIt is halted now.
14:44.56holtmannHolding reset did the trick.
14:45.19holtmannNow ./devirginate should be enough.
14:46.14LaF0rgeyes, if you give it correct filenames for uboot/kernel/rootfs, it should work
14:49.50holtmannStage 1 complete. No stage 2.
14:49.52holtmannError:   arm7_9_common.c:562 arm7_9_execute_sys_speed(): timeout waiting for SYSCOMP & DBGACK, last DBG_STATUS: 0
14:50.02holtmannI get this.
14:51.28CIA-24openmoko: 03wansti * r1917 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/artwork/sounds/ (6 files): added Rosegarden source files for all (upcoming) sounds
14:52.37LaF0rgemh, strange. that's one of those jtag issues. should be gone with recent openocd/libusb
14:52.44LaF0rgein any case, after stage 1 you have u-boot there
14:52.49holtmannopenocd is from CVS.
14:53.00LaF0rgei.e. you should be able to use dfu-util for kernel/rootfs
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14:53.43holtmannHow do I make it boot now.
14:54.49holtmannIt doesn't show up on the USB bus.
14:54.57LaF0rgedoes the screen light up/
14:54.58LaF0rge?
14:55.03holtmannNo
14:55.08LaF0rgei.e. press AUX button plus power for 5 sec/
14:55.09LaF0rge?
14:55.22holtmannError:   arm_jtag.c:38 arm_jtag_set_instr_error_handler(): setting the new JTAG instruction failed, debugging is likely to be broken
14:55.53LaF0rgehm, never seen that jtag error.  what do you see on the serial port?
14:56.04holtmannWhich serial port?
14:56.29LaF0rgeholtmann: the debug board exports two serial devices:  the first one is JTAG used by openocd, the seond one is the serial console of the neo
14:56.55LaF0rgeholtmann: you need to load ftdi_sio with appropriate vendor/product parameters to make that work, as described per wiki
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14:57.18holtmannNothing on it.
14:57.55LaF0rgemh. strange.  and you are sure you have a Bv4 hardware?
14:58.16LaF0rgeBv4 should be the non-bluetooth-device that FIC sent you very recently in accident
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14:58.27holtmannNo. I have a new one.
14:58.33LaF0rgeah, ok.
14:58.37holtmannWait a second. I might got it.
14:59.12holtmannDfu download is now in progress. No idea what I changed.
14:59.19LaF0rgemh.
14:59.28holtmannOnly unplugged the debug board.
14:59.47LaF0rgeah. maybe openocd got somehow stuck and kept the board in halt via jtag
14:59.51holtmannHopefully it also flashed the boot loader now.
15:00.03LaF0rgeopenocd with libusb < 0.9 is quite unreliable
15:00.25holtmannAnd btw. they forgot to send me another battery. So I have now two devices, but only one battery.
15:01.02LaF0rgemh, too bad.  I'm not sure if there are still some in berlin.  will ask my office assistant to check and mail you one
15:01.19holtmannI am in Sevilla anyway. So won't help me just right now.
15:01.50LaF0rgewhen are you back, and how long?
15:02.00holtmannI will be back next Saturday.
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15:06.56holtmannI have back the boot loader. At least I think so. Where can I find the latest snapshot to flash into it.
15:07.00koenLaF0rge: there's still something wonky in the 2.6.21 kernel, I can get gsmd to register on the network nor control the backlight
15:07.20holtmannhttp://buildhost.openmoko.org/tmp/deploy/images/ ?
15:07.50LaF0rgeholtmann: There is not snapshot per se, you can just manually select the lastest uboot/uImage/openmoko-devel-image
15:08.34LaF0rgeholtmann: http://buildhost.openmoko.org/tmp/deploy/images/?C=M;O=D helps
15:09.00rtpkoen: as long as the backlight driver is not compiled in you won't be able to control it :)
15:10.56holtmannDo you also have link for the splash. It seems I lost it somehow.
15:11.17LaF0rgeholtmann: i think you need to use devirginator to do the conversion
15:11.35holtmannDoes dfu upload work. Then I can use the one from my v3.
15:11.43LaF0rgeholtmann: devirginator downloads the original png and converts it into the correct format, and then saves it to tmp/
15:12.12LaF0rgedfu upload works depending on your u-boot version.  before April 19 I think it was working, and after MAy 03 it is working again
15:12.36holtmannOkay. I would boot without, right?
15:12.46holtmannWhat about the config area.
15:13.09LaF0rgeyes, it boots without the splash
15:13.46LaF0rgethe environment? I think without environment it would be missing some boot parameters.  Don't know if the compiled-in default is sufficient
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15:14.38LaF0rgealso, if you manually install everything, you might need to set the dynenv partition marker. (if 'dynenv get' returns 'no marker' then use 'dynenv set u-boot_env'
15:14.56holtmannWhat is dynenv?
15:15.25LaF0rgeholtmann: the dynamic (per-device specific) start sector of the envirohment partition, which is stored in the OOB area of the first NAND flash sector
15:15.44LaF0rgeif you erase/re-write u-boot manually, then that marker will be erased, too
15:16.07holtmannI flash the rootfs, kernel and uboot now.
15:16.07LaF0rgeif you use DFU to flash a new u-boot, it saves that marker and re-writes it after finishing the write to the u-boto partition
15:17.03koenrtp: CONFIG_BACKLIGHT_LCD_SUPPORT=y
15:18.05holtmannOkay. My boot loader is from May 5th. So that seems to be okay, but it doesn't boot and the menu only shows boot and factory reset.
15:18.26LaF0rgethen the environment is missing
15:18.30LaF0rgeor the environment marker
15:18.44holtmannI flashed the u-boot via DFU.
15:18.53LaF0rgecheck it as described above by issuing 'dynenv get'
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15:18.54rtpkoen: you need BACKLIGHT_GTA01 which depends on BACKLIGHT_DEVICE and BACKLIGHT_DEVICE has been removed
15:19.26koenrtp: there's no such config option
15:19.26LaF0rgeholtmann: yes, but before using dfu, you [rather: devirginator] flashed it once without dfu, i guess (jtag)
15:19.45holtmannSo what should I do?
15:20.04koenrtp: http://rafb.net/p/3Wc10r59.html
15:20.31LaF0rgeholtmann: try issuing 'dynenv get' on the u-boot command line
15:21.36rtpkoen: It's not there because the Kconfig entry depends on the now dead BACKLIGHT_DEVICE entry
15:21.51holtmannholtmann@aeonflux:~$ cu -l /dev/ttyACM0
15:21.51holtmanncu: open (/dev/ttyACM0): Input/output error
15:21.51holtmanncu: /dev/ttyACM0: Line in use
15:21.54holtmannArgh. What the f*
15:22.06LaF0rgeholtmann: chown uucp.uucp /dev/ttyACM0
15:22.24LaF0rgeholtmann: cu is very baroque and has strange ideas on device ownership
15:22.42holtmannSame problem.
15:23.25LaF0rgebut the device actually exists?
15:23.35LaF0rgetry minicom
15:23.43koenor picocom
15:23.48MagonI wonder if all unit specific data are at the dynenv part..like serial numbers of chips inside
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15:24.32holtmannAny special extra parameter?
15:24.43Magonwhen i was playing with Palm i found serial number in the middle of flash
15:24.45LaF0rgeholtmann: no, not required.  baudrate doesn't matter
15:24.46holtmannIt somehow connects, but I can type on it.
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15:27.01LaF0rgethen the console might be switched to serial
15:27.12holtmannThat is funny. The factory reset option actually boots the kernel.
15:27.14LaF0rgetry accessing the USB1 device (or whatever the 2nd serial of the debug board might be)
15:27.20LaF0rge:)
15:27.24LaF0rgeyes, it's supposed to do
15:27.42holtmannOkay, but boot powers the device off.
15:28.01holtmannSo if I have it booted, does that help me?
15:29.33LaF0rgewell, you then have the device running.
15:29.43LaF0rgeguess that's what you wanted, after all.  
15:29.54LaF0rgein any case, you should still fix your environment
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15:30.02LaF0rgei.e. get access to the u-boot console at some poitn
15:31.04holtmannlet me try that. So I connect the debug board and get into the boot loader. Then one of ttyUSB should give the serial console of the boot loader.
15:31.37LaF0rgeyes
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15:33.04holtmannI only get terminal ready, but can't use it.
15:33.20humokDaymn
15:33.25humokis it for sale yet???
15:33.26alorilhumok: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
15:34.10LaF0rgeholtmann: mh, it should definitely respond to commands on either the serial or the usb.  there is no other setting
15:34.23humok10th may
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15:35.38LaF0rgehumok/aloril: Bv4 production is getting transferred into mainland china factory right now
15:35.53holtmannI see garbage on ttyUSB once I press reset on the debug board.
15:35.58buzLaF0rge: thats good news i take it?
15:36.02holtmannttyUSB1.
15:36.06humokso it should be availiable soon
15:36.08humokright
15:36.10LaF0rgeholtmann: oh, on ttyUSB1 you need 115200 bps
15:36.16humokive been dieing for this fone
15:36.27humokseems untouchable by others
15:36.34LaF0rgeholtmann: there the baudrate matters. only on usbtty it donsn't.
15:36.56holtmannAh. Here we go.
15:37.03LaF0rgeholtmann: 'dynenv get'
15:37.12holtmannGTA01Bv4 # dynenv get
15:37.12holtmann0x00040000
15:37.36aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[Wishlist:Unlikely]]
15:39.39LaF0rgeholtmann: oh, so the marker is there
15:39.45LaF0rgeonly your environment seems erased :(
15:39.59MagonLaF0rge: the production transfere means that it is going to mass production?
15:40.00LaF0rgei.e. the actual content of the environment partition.
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15:40.15holtmannHow do I get it back?
15:40.29LaF0rgemagon: well, technically MP but not in regular MP quantities (we are far from being mass consumer compatible)
15:40.29holtmannAnd how do I switch it to usbtty.
15:40.56MagonLaF0rge: ok but harwdare issues are solved?
15:41.02LaF0rgeholtmann: setenv stderr usbtty; setenv stdout usbtty; setenv stdin usbtty
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15:41.31LaF0rgeholtmann: then 'saveenv' (from usbtty since the changes should be effective immediately)
15:41.41aloril2LaF0rge: great news! will there be pre-orders?
15:41.53LaF0rgealoril: not sure, I'm R&D, not sales ;)
15:41.55holtmannNo. Still using the USB1.
15:42.15LaF0rgeholtmann: yes, this is because there were no such variables in the environment before.
15:42.30LaF0rgeholtmann: usually it becomes in effect immediately, but not if your env was corrupted ;)
15:43.52MagonLaF0rge: plan is to product Bv4 in factory than make HW refresh and move it to factory again?
15:43.52holtmannIt does. For a second I had stdin on USB1 and stdout on ACM0
15:44.13holtmannSo what else do I need to get this back into a sane state.
15:44.32LaF0rgeholtmann: it's not easy manually
15:44.43LaF0rgeholtmann: usually devirginator takes care of this
15:45.21holtmannGTA01Bv4 # printenv
15:45.21holtmannbootargs=
15:45.21holtmannbaudrate=115200
15:45.21holtmannbootargs_base=rootfstype=jffs2 root=/dev/mtdblock4 console=ttySAC0,115200 console=tty0 loglevel=8
15:45.21holtmannmtdids=nand0=neo1973-nand
15:45.22holtmannmtdparts=mtdparts=neo1973-nand:0x00040000(u-boot),0x00004000(u-boot_env),0x00200000(kernel),0x000a0000(splash),0x03d1c000(rootfs)
15:45.25holtmannbootdelay=604800
15:45.27holtmannsplashimage=nand read.e 0x32000000 splash 0x1000; unzip 0x32000000 0x33d00000 0x96000
15:45.29holtmannusbtty=cdc_acm
15:45.31holtmannpartition=nand0,0
15:45.33holtmannmtddevnum=0
15:45.35holtmannmtddevname=u-boot
15:45.37holtmannpcf50606_int1=0x4a
15:45.39holtmannstderr=usbtty
15:45.41holtmannstdin=usbtty
15:45.43holtmannstdout=usbtty
15:45.45holtmannEnvironment size: 506/16380 bytes
15:45.49holtmannthat is how it looks currently.
15:45.51buz~lart people_who_dont_use_pastebin
15:45.51aptsteals people_who_dont_use_pastebin's mojo
15:47.13holtmannLaF0rge: Having it boot would be enough right now.
15:47.27LaF0rgeholtmann: well, 'setenv bootdelay 10' should do half of the trick
15:47.50holtmannWhy?
15:48.18LaF0rgeoh and 'setenv bootcmd setenv bootargs \${bootargs_base} \${mtdparts}\; nand read.e 0x32000000 kernel\; bootm 0x32000000
15:48.19LaF0rge'
15:48.48LaF0rgeholtmann: because bootdelay of 604000 seconds is not good for auto-boot :)
15:49.09Rince*nod*
15:49.18holtmannOh, I see. The value was why to high.
15:49.23holtmannNo it is not.
15:49.38holtmannIt still doesn't boot.
15:49.52holtmannAnd the boot option in the boot loader turns it off.
15:52.36aloril2there isn't any competition ;-)
15:55.19LaF0rgeholtmann: basically, if 'boot' fails to boot it, it turns off
15:55.36LaF0rgeholtmann: boot it into the menu (Aux+power), then access usbtty and issue 'boot' and see what happens
15:56.13LaF0rgealso, use printenv to verify bootcmd and bootdelay variables
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16:00.45holtmannOkay. Seems to work now. Thanks a lot.
16:01.27Magonwhat exactly meand reset to Factory default?
16:02.13LaF0rgemagon: not yet implemented.  it basically issues a hardcoded boot command and boots into the kernel with a particular option, where some not-yet-implemented userspace program shall take care of resetting everything to defaults
16:02.45Magonok but you have to not reflash it
16:03.52Magonwhat about implementing setting reasonable dynenv as factory default?
16:04.52holtmannLaF0rge: Btw. the power_on for the Bluetooth dongle doesn't work anymore.
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16:07.55holtmannOkay. the Boot menu now works, but autoboot not. What is wrong there?
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16:13.28LaF0rgeautoboot is only active if you don't press the aux key
16:13.31LaF0rgeyou know that, i guess ;)
16:13.48LaF0rgeholtmann: apart from that, the only thing i can think of is bootdelay
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16:16.04holtmannI think my config storage is completely messed up.
16:17.14LaF0rgeholtmann: what you sent above actually semed quite reasonable
16:17.38holtmannYeah, but now I get some garbage when I call printenv.
16:17.57koenbad blocks?
16:18.49holtmannbootdelay=10
16:18.49holtmann6000
16:18.49holtmannstderr=usbtty
16:18.49holtmannstdin=usbttootargs ${bootargs_base} ${mtdparts}; nand read.e 0x32000000 kernel; bootm 0x32000000
16:18.49holtmannpartition=nand0,0
16:18.49holtmannmtddevnum=0
16:18.51holtmannmtddevname=u-boot
16:18.53holtmannStuff like this.
16:19.13holtmannSee line with stdin
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16:20.57holtmannDoes stage 2 of devirginate also fixes the config or do I need stage 1 for that?
16:25.31LaF0rgeholtmann: the garbage is probably usb related
16:25.47LaF0rgeholtmann: usbtty has some ringbuffer corruption resulting in bogus printouts if you display a lot of text
16:25.55LaF0rgeholtmann: sorry for that, nobody ever got around fixing that
16:26.19LaF0rgecommands that return less text, such as 'printenv stdin' should give more reliable output
16:27.42LaF0rgeholtmann: please talk to wpwrak about any further issues, it's getting late here so I'll go to bed soon, sorry
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16:27.56LaF0rgewerner (wpwrak) is online right now, just talking to him
16:29.42holtmannI am off for a guided tour and dinner.
16:30.04holtmannI can at least boot it now. However the power driver for Bluetooth is broken.
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17:05.33aloril2has anybody tested 4GB cards yet?
17:05.53SpeedEvilAre there any?
17:07.04SpeedEvilmicroSD I mean.
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17:40.14DukeOfURL_I read somewhere that the >2GB SD cards did not have larger capacity but were using compression.
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17:47.18CoreDump|home+mhentges@oe-neo1973:..73/out/tmp.dev_om/deploy >du images/
17:47.18CoreDump|home926M    images/
17:47.45CoreDump|homeI guess the OM deploy dir needs a "little bit" post-processing....
17:50.09aloril2SpeedEvil: somebody refered to high 4GB price compared to 2GB, but maybe it was plain SD and not microSD
17:50.34SpeedEvilI suspect so.
17:50.41SpeedEvilI've not seen 4G microSD
17:50.45SpeedEvil2G is rare.
17:51.33SpeedEvilhttp://www.instructables.com/id/EM1O9XJF0YPF7M5/ Too cool.
17:51.39SpeedEvilThe perfect neo accessory.
17:51.44SpeedEvilOr maybe not.
17:52.16balrog-kunthere's a limit of SD sizes imposed by the protocol, from my reading of the specs that was 4 GB but i've heard 2 GB from people
17:52.30SpeedEvilIIRC.
17:52.38SpeedEvil1G is the intended limit.
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17:52.52SpeedEvil2G can be gotten either by bending the protocol a little, or going SDHC
17:52.57SpeedEvil>2G has to be SDHC
17:53.38balrog-kunfrom my reading 2G wouldn't require any bending
17:53.52balrog-kun1G is the max with 512 byte blocks but blocks can be up to 2 K
17:54.44buzSpeedEvil: 2g microsd is widely available and cheap
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17:55.01SpeedEvilSlightly rarer I mean - last time I looked.
17:55.04peepsalot:-O that mouse is disturbing
17:55.04buz4g microsdhc is expensive (twice the price per GB) and not really available
17:55.06SpeedEvilthogugh it was a while.
17:55.28DukeOfURL_is microSD 32mm x 24mm?
17:55.34SpeedEvilNo.
17:55.37buzmore like 20x10mm
17:55.44SpeedEvilAbout 11*18*1 or so
17:56.16DukeOfURL_What is this one I'm holding?  32x24mm
17:56.25DukeOfURL_SD?
17:56.26SpeedEvilI think that's probably a SD card
17:56.56balrog-kunSD or MMC, they look the same :)
17:57.05buzMost SD cards are physically thicker than MMC cards. SD cards generally measure 32 mm × 24 mm × 2.1 mm,
17:57.12SpeedEvilhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Digital_card
17:57.21CoreDump|homeMMC = evil
17:57.26balrog-kunthe MMC i had was also 2.1 mm thick
17:57.34koenmmc is less evil than SD
17:57.59SpeedEvilYeah.
17:58.37koenstill very evil, though
17:58.42CoreDump|hometrue enough
17:58.58balrog-kunSD protocol is less kludgy
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17:59.04SpeedEvilCompactflash isn't very evil.
17:59.08SpeedEvilToo large though.
17:59.37SpeedEvilI can't understand introducing SDHC.
17:59.42SpeedEvilWith a maximum size of 32G.
17:59.45buzCF is kinda braindead
17:59.59buzusing full ATA spec for a flash card is way over the top
18:00.00SpeedEvilraindead != evil though.
18:00.21buzUSB card would be good
18:00.24koen640kB is enough for everyone!
18:00.31CoreDump|homedamn right it is
18:01.04balrog-kunbuz: thanks to using full ata it's 100% compatible with microdrives
18:01.21buzyeah but the connector is rather unwieldy
18:01.35buzit definitely doesnt suit small devices
18:01.55balrog-kunpalm lifedrive has one, it works ok
18:02.17balrog-kunalthough most users i know (two) replaced the cards with microdrives already
18:02.28CoreDump|homeCF was _the_ format back in the days
18:02.34buzyeah, back many days
18:02.41buzmy digicam still uses them
18:02.44koenit is still *the* format in pro photography
18:02.45CoreDump|homeso does mine
18:02.52DukeOfURL_spec says there's DRM on the SD card.  I wonder how that works?
18:02.59buzpro photography doesnt use small equipment either
18:03.11buzi wonder why people buy microdrives these days
18:03.14buzflash is cheap
18:03.20buzand less hassle
18:03.27balrog-kunsupposedly MD is faster
18:03.42DukeOfURL_could we use DRM to protect PIM data?
18:03.45koenmd doesn't wear out due to excessive writes
18:03.58buzCF has write levelling iirc
18:04.04koenbut since CF is essentially free nowadays
18:04.16CoreDump|homekoen: I heard MD's die _way_ faster than conventional HDDs so that point would be moot
18:04.29buzwearing out a 4GB CF card is kinda hard
18:04.47koenbuz: flash cells are getting less writecycles these days
18:04.54buzmaybe if you keep doing dd if=/dev/urandom of=CFcard
18:05.02koenyou used to get 100k cycles before breakdown, with MLC only 10k
18:05.12buzi heard the opposite claim too
18:05.40koenlook up the specs for the flash technology used
18:06.02koenread beyond the "OMG SIZE!!!" propaganda and you see how bad the write-cycle count is with MLC
18:06.19buzif the write leveling algorithm is any good, i can live with 10K writes
18:06.43buzi rather get cheap but big flash
18:06.55buzits not like i wont replace the card in due time
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18:36.49HaDAkhello.
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18:49.35pavelmHi!
18:49.35*** join/#openmoko michiel (n=michiel@213.219.142.195.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net)
18:50.11pavelm...so I've realized my sirfII gps receiver is crap (does not even respond to sirf commands properly) and am now reading opensource GPS documentation.
18:50.16pavelm...quite a lot of reading ;_)
18:53.36*** join/#openmoko kwadronaut (n=michiel@213.219.142.195.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net)
18:55.56kwadronautthe only thing in the topic is where or how to get it ;-)
18:56.11kwadronauts/missing in the topc/
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18:58.42buzthats because its not known yet
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19:01.13kwadronautso rather late may if it still has to be decided/organised?
19:01.14alorilkwadronaut: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
19:03.36*** join/#openmoko ruoso (n=ruoso@87-196-200-87.net.novis.pt)
19:06.50*** join/#openmoko Clay (i=IceChat7@62.san-jose-09-10rs.ca.dial-access.att.net)
19:07.28Clayanyone there?
19:07.28alorilClay: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
19:08.41pavelmyep.
19:10.30Clayso, i want to start progamming, because i want a neo1973, but i dont know where to start
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19:11.49Claycan anyone help me start programming
19:12.18aloril2Clay: OpenMoko is basically normal Linux distribution
19:12.50Clayi know, but im really new, i dont mean to be a menice
19:13.49aloril2do you now C and/or Python?
19:14.11Clayi know a little of both, more python than C
19:14.58*** part/#openmoko _kaiser_ (n=kaiser@74-130-215-250.dhcp.insightbb.com)
19:15.35aloril2what about gtk?
19:16.04Clayi cant get my compiler to compile gtk
19:17.50aloril2usually gtk is included in Linux distribution, do you mean you can't compile gtk using program? (possible solution: install gtk-devel)
19:18.08HaDAkwill OpenMoko be carrier agnostic?
19:18.47pavelmhadak: Yep.
19:18.59aloril2HaDAk: should be
19:19.06Clayunfortunately, i have windows, i have a ubuntu and slax live cd tho, will that work?
19:19.24HaDAkthank God, i can finally get away from the mainstream phones. so limiting!
19:19.50pavelmhadak: Mainstream phones are carrier agnostic, too :-). That's called unlocking.
19:19.54threshonly when neo is released
19:19.55HaDAki read that availablility will start in june/july...and mainstream production starts in aug.  is this still the projected timeline?
19:20.17aloril2(though FIC probably is working to also get distribution deals with carriers for mass market release)
19:20.25HaDAkpavelm: i understand that. it is legal, however phone companies have contingencies that allow them to deny you service if you're using an unlocked phone.
19:20.49aloril2my best guess for P1 is this:
19:20.55aloril2counter
19:20.55alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: a week, a day 04:39:10 (8.194 +-3.5 days) (1099;195)
19:21.10pavelmhadak: Just buy a phone from someone else than carrier. And in my country, carriers themselves sell unlocked phones.
19:22.27HaDAksounds good. this will be available online only?
19:24.29Clayaloril2: will a linux live cd with slax or ubuntu work for compiling gtk?
19:24.40aloril2Clay: it's easier to install Linux and develop there than to develop under windows (which is possible too)
19:25.15aloril2Clay: look for colinux or something like that (Linux under Windows)
19:25.31Clayallright, thanx
19:26.42KensanClay: Maybe using some kind of virualized install of Linux would be simpler. Check http://virtualbox.org
19:28.25kwadronautcygwin is yet another option. but once you start compiling, better be running 'just' *nix
19:28.27Clayallright, im going, but i have dial-up, so it's hella slow
19:28.43kwadronautespecially if you have an older box
19:29.34Fletchcounter
19:29.34alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: a week, a day 04:30:32 (8.188 +-3.5 days) (1100;195)
19:36.22*** join/#openmoko gdiebel (n=gdiebel@ppp-70-226-144-33.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net)
19:37.27Clayso, im trying virtualbox, would i need a distro of linux?
19:37.36aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Hammerhead_protocol]]
19:39.44*** join/#openmoko atla (n=atla@p3ee3e3b2.dip.t-dialin.net)
19:41.46KensanClay: Yes. It's just like you would install it on your computer but instead you install it on the virtual machine. You workstation should have enough horsepower thought otherwise it will be awfully slow.
19:41.55peepsalotClay, you need some OS to run on a virtual machine
19:42.38Clayallright, any suggestions which distro?
19:43.06peepsalotactually i don't think the performance hit is that great.  maybe some for disk access though since this filesystem is emulate
19:43.22peepsalotd
19:44.01Kensanpeepsalot: Mostly depends on the amount of memory.
19:45.26KensanClay: Debian or Ubuntu might be a sound choice but that's really a matter of taste I guess.
19:46.23Clayi havent tried debian, but i have a ubuntu live cd, i can use that to install it on my virtualbox, right?
19:47.06balrog-kunprovided that it's an install CD
19:47.13KensanClay: yes, then you should go with Ubuntu.
19:47.26balrog-kunbut you don't have to install ubuntu, you can use the live-cd only
19:47.29Clayok, thanx again everybody
19:48.22balrog-kuni'd use qemu anyway
19:48.38Clayqemu?
19:49.05balrog-kunyeah, virtual box is a fork of qemu
19:49.28Clayoh okay, im really new, sorry
19:49.43balrog-kunthat's no problem, virtual box will work too
19:53.05Kensanbalrog-kun: AFAIK Virtualbox uses qemu for certain things but is not a fork.
19:54.06Clayi have a question, i have an external 60-gig hdd...
19:54.33Kensanbalrog-kun: see http://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Developer_FAQ
19:54.37balrog-kunKensan: over 60% of the code in virtual box is our code
19:54.53Claycould i install linux on that and have my bios boot that directly?
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19:59.01*** join/#openmoko ruoso (n=ruoso@89-180-14-135.net.novis.pt)
20:01.45KensanClay, yes if your BIOS supports booting from USB - assuming your external HD is USB.
20:02.24Clayyes it is, and my bios supports it, would that be better than virtual box?
20:02.49SpeedEvilIn some ways, yes.
20:03.11balrog-kunprobably faster and more reliable
20:03.16SpeedEvilIt's a 'real' running system, and you don't need to configure stuff in complex ways.
20:03.28SpeedEvilOTOH - you can't run normally at the same time.
20:03.41KensanIf you are "serious" about development I think you should have a "native"/full Linux installation at some point.
20:04.32SpeedEvilTrue.
20:04.54Kensanin the end OpenMoko is itself a Linux distro...
20:04.59Kensanbut that's just my 2 cents.
20:05.16SpeedEvilNot used.
20:05.28SpeedEviloops
20:05.30Clayok, so is programming for OpenMoko hard?
20:05.50SpeedEvilNot especially harder than any other linux programming.
20:06.11KensanIt depends mostly on what you generally know about programming, linux, etc
20:06.29Claywell, i havent done much other linux programming, but i want to learn
20:07.12SpeedEvilOther than libs, most of it should transfer over.
20:07.33SpeedEvilIf you've been doing windows programming.
20:08.01KensanIt's more about finding your way around, e.g. how to set up the development environment etc. but if you are willing to learn then this is a great chance
20:08.13SpeedEvilYeah.
20:08.18Claynot a whole lot of windows programming either besides some tutorials online
20:11.24SpeedEvilYou've probably got a long way to go before you can create reasonable apps then, but I suspect you knew that.
20:11.49Clayyeah
20:12.11Kensanbesides, you do not need to create reasonable apps ;) just do what you want to do
20:12.30SpeedEvilI mean more than 'helo wrlf'.
20:12.54SpeedEvilUseful apps can of course be very very small.
20:14.15Claydefinately
20:15.12KensanPutting Ubuntu on your external HD and setting up the development env would be a good start I guess.
20:15.50Claywhat do u mean by developement env? the libraries and such?
20:16.29CoreDump|home~lart the still non-functional GPS
20:16.30aptcuts the still non-functional GPS into thin stripes
20:16.45balrog-kunusing free software on the PC would be a good start to freeing your phone etc
20:17.07MukundaSo has anyone here actually got an openmoko yet?
20:17.18buza few of the devs yes
20:17.25CoreDump|homemy phone is basically my last non-OSS device
20:17.27buzas for the unwashed masses, no
20:17.40MukundaAh.. Are there any decent photos of it out there yet?
20:17.52buzsure, try the website
20:18.07buzor flickr
20:18.12Mukundawiki, planet..?
20:18.15buzsome 4megapixel shots on flickr
20:18.15CoreDump|homewiki.openmoko.org should point to photos
20:18.28MukundaDanke.
20:18.28pavelmI do have phase0 device here.
20:18.29buzplanet is rather barren ;)
20:18.30KensanClay: Set up the libraries etc so you can build OpenMoko, there's lots of information in the wiki
20:19.29CoreDump|home!praise MokoMakefile
20:22.27*** join/#openmoko Eludias (n=eludias@wingding.demon.nl)
20:23.20koen4mpixel?
20:23.25koen8 mpixel!
20:23.26Clayalright, so i use the instructions of MokoMakeFile?
20:23.32CoreDump|homehehe
20:24.13KensanClay, yes, once you have your linux running follow instructions for MokoMakeFile (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile)
20:24.30CoreDump|homeClay: that would be the easiest way, yes. Setting up the OM env w/ MokoMakefile can be a real PITA, especially for newbies ;)
20:24.57CoreDump|home*w/o
20:25.03KensanClay, if you get stuck check http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:MokoMakefile
20:25.09MukundaThe silver/black openmoko on openmoko.org   is with with that colour scheme going to be available?
20:25.35Clayalright, thanx, im going to install linux now
20:25.51CoreDump|homeMukunda: you might wanna rephrase that question ;)
20:25.54balrog-kunMukunda: note that openmoko is the software
20:26.01MukundaCoreDump|home: sorry.
20:26.02MukundaYeah.
20:26.06MukundaJust woke up.
20:26.12MukundaThe neo1973 I mean.
20:26.13Mukunda:-)
20:26.32CoreDump|homeThe silver/black casing does indeed exist
20:26.47CoreDump|homeMost P0 devices were black/silver AFAIK
20:26.49MukundaAh awesome, tis sexy compared to the photos I've seen.
20:26.58*** join/#openmoko SirCrow (n=sircrow@sd511685b.adsl.wanadoo.nl)
20:28.21CoreDump|homeit looks hot =)
20:28.21CoreDump|homeand feels interesting
20:28.24MukundaHmnse well, hopefully they announce what the discount will be for P1 buyers, soon.
20:28.46balrog-kunthere will be a discount?
20:29.02CoreDump|homeFrom what I heard, the P1 phase is basically right around the corner
20:29.09balrog-kunoh, a discount for P2 for P1 buyers you mean?
20:29.17Mukundabalrog-kun: ah may have been.
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20:37.13SpeedEvilDo you mean P1.5?
20:37.22SpeedEvilNot heard about possible P2 discount.
20:38.06balrog-kunis any kind of discounts planned then? :p
20:38.29hadsP1+ or whatever the refresh is called.
20:39.39MukundaHm can't find this on the faq, what kind of cpu is in the neo1973?
20:39.42Kensanbalrog-kun: it says so in the wiki with refs to mailing list
20:39.55SpeedEvilLook on the neo1973 page on teh wiki
20:40.07SpeedEvilor on teh hardware information page from the main page
20:40.17SpeedEvilsc3410?
20:40.20SpeedEvilsomething lie that.
20:40.48balrog-kunS3C2410A
20:41.08koenthe hardware refresh will most likely use s3c2440
20:41.26MukundaOh hm that seems like a decent enough cpu.
20:41.38balrog-kunkoen: afaik think that's GTA02
20:41.43balrog-kuns/think//
20:42.19koenbalrog-kun: could be, dunno about the numbers
20:42.35koenor blackfins
20:42.39koenanything with a DSP :)
20:43.12koen'night all
20:43.19balrog-kunomaps would be great
20:46.53SpeedEvilIMO, the s3c2410 has about enough CPU power.
20:47.00SpeedEvilI want less battery use.
20:47.12SpeedEvilOr USB2
20:52.17*** join/#openmoko ruoso (n=ruoso@89-180-41-156.net.novis.pt)
21:02.46CoreDump|homepavelm: yeah, a "joypad" would be nice
21:03.01pavelmDecoded GPS packet 0: it contains time in miliseconds.
21:03.21pavelmcoredump: I believe joypad is pretty much mandatory... but I guess it would look uncool?
21:04.24CoreDump|homepavelm: well, I trust in FIC's design dept to make it look decent ;)
21:04.38Kensanpavelm: There are drivers for the Wiimote in the kernel ;)
21:04.48Kensanand the Wiimote is bluetooth
21:04.51CoreDump|homepavelm: did you manage to turn on your GPS?
21:05.00pavelmkensan: Ok, I guess I _can_ just ssh from my zaurus :-)
21:05.15pavelmkensan: but then, I could just put gsm card into my zaurus, right?
21:05.29pavelmcoredump: I did not try, yet. Laf0rge warned me there are still bugs there.
21:05.30CoreDump|homeexactly
21:06.19CoreDump|homew/ a working power-on, our reverse-engineers could have a go at the hammer head
21:09.21SpeedEvilpavelm: do you mean packets with ID 0?
21:09.29SpeedEvilFrom the GPS?
21:10.32SpeedEvilHmm.
21:10.39DukeOfURL_http://www.globallocate.com/ says hammerhead II will work indoors...
21:10.40SpeedEvilIt won't be an absolute time of course.
21:11.12pavelmSpeed: Yes, packet 0 _from_ gps looks like milisecond precission timestamp.
21:11.21*** join/#openmoko ruoso (n=ruoso@87-196-182-202.net.novis.pt)
21:11.49SpeedEvilI'd expect it to be a time, based on the VCXO clock, showing
21:11.53balrog-kunwill the satellites have to be present in your room for that to work?
21:11.58SpeedEvilskew of each satellite signal.
21:12.07SpeedEvilbalrog-kun: No,.
21:12.22SpeedEvilBecause of the sensitivity and the fast lock time, it can use signals that others can't.
21:12.36pavelmspeed: Yes, I'd expect something like that.
21:12.38balrog-kunthey could add a free bonus satellite to every chip
21:12.41SpeedEvilThe hammerhead really is quite a lot more sensitive fundamentally.
21:12.51pavelmspeed: (No idea what VCXO is, anyway).
21:12.52SpeedEvilThan your average sirfIII/...
21:13.04SpeedEvilVCXO Voltage controlled crystal oscillator.
21:13.42SpeedEvilThis is the precision timebase used for the precise timings of satellite motion.
21:13.43pavelmactually I'd expect it to be time represented in oscilations of incoming signal, or something.
21:13.56SpeedEvilNo, as you don't have a reliable incoming signal.
21:14.08SpeedEvilYou've got to express it generally in terms of an internal clock.
21:14.30*** part/#openmoko kwadronaut (n=michiel@213.219.142.195.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net)
21:14.43SpeedEvilWhich the VCXO is.
21:15.16pavelmMaybe it is not a timestampt, but something that changes with time. Like ammount of bits received from particular sattelite... packets 0 come in groups, and at the beggining they have all the same "timestamp". At the end of the log, they differ.
21:15.38SpeedEvilMaybe.
21:16.25SpeedEvilThey state that there is no hard real-time needed by the host.
21:16.38SpeedEvilSo the host doesn't need to do precise timing on the serial inputs.
21:16.54SpeedEvilAnd you couldn't time serial events that finely anyway.
21:16.55pavelm...but they do not seem to have timestamps on _all_ packets.
21:17.29pavelmNow if packet 0 has contains very precise timestamps for each sattelite, we are done, right?
21:17.36SpeedEvilIt can't.
21:17.43SpeedEvilUnfortunately.
21:18.05SpeedEvilThe time is not broadcast sub-second.
21:18.06pavelmI mean... not timestamps... the reverse value.
21:18.23SpeedEvilThe hammerhead can get a position in under a second.
21:18.51pavelmI mean... not timestamp... how is it called.
21:19.02SpeedEvilTherefore, in at least one mode, it's not using the broadcast time (with 1s granularity reprated at most every 6s)
21:19.06pavelmNumber of ticks since start of packet on each carrier.
21:19.57pavelmwell, it has to interpolate between broadcast time, obviously.
21:20.08pavelm...and they may not know precise time within 1 second of cold start, right?
21:20.11*** join/#openmoko miip__ (n=miip@p54A57E8D.dip.t-dialin.net)
21:20.31SpeedEvilYes.
21:20.43DukeOfURL_gps tutorial: http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/gps/gps_f.html
21:20.43SpeedEvilI assume that's not actually true cold start.
21:21.03*** part/#openmoko zcw100 (n=zcw100@sallywhitley.com)
21:21.07SpeedEvilI assume it's a mode in which you know the actual time to within 10ms.
21:21.20SpeedEvilThis way you can ignore the actual contents of the data.
21:21.26SpeedEvilAnd just sync to the bit edges.
21:21.40pavelmYep.
21:21.56SpeedEvilYou can do this with normal low-quality clocks as long as you've got teh last update within a couple of minutes.
21:23.03SpeedEvilWith more smarts, you can with a  second or so of data knowing what the satellites should be broadcasting sync up even if you don't hit a packet with the time in immediately.
21:23.28SpeedEvilIf you're within say 100ms.
21:24.02SpeedEvilThere are - as I see it - two options.
21:24.37SpeedEvilEither the GPS is nice, and you get data + doppler shift + phase delay relative to precise clock.
21:24.48SpeedEvilAnd this is all wrapped into a nice packet for you.
21:24.57SpeedEvilfor each satellite.
21:24.58SpeedEvilOr.
21:25.01*** join/#openmoko Ganneff (i=joerg@freenode/staff/debian.ganneff)
21:25.22Mukundawhat's the web-browser they've got running on the Neo1973 at the moment?
21:25.30MukundaIs it just lynx/links2?
21:25.31pavelm...what kind of data?
21:25.32SpeedEvilYou have to basically do successive approximation on the raw data, setting up parameters different ways.
21:25.45SpeedEvilI mean data bits the satellite is sending.
21:25.54pavelmI'd expect doppler shift + phase delay in one packet.
21:26.05pavelm...and the bits in another one... because that's variable length.
21:26.10SpeedEvilThat would be nice.
21:26.51pavelmI thought "data" packets (decoded 50bps stuff) should be easy to locate, but it is not :-(
21:26.54SpeedEvilIt's possible that the hardware simply extracts the bits, and you have to do successive approximation or something to extract the doppler shift.
21:27.24MukundaOh, and while I'm away, if anyone has a suggestion for a name of a hacker oriented shop (I and a friend are hoping to open one), then please say my name followed by the suggestion.
21:27.29pavelmI thought extracting the doppler shift is pretty low-level operation.  Something you have to do to get the data...
21:27.34SpeedEvilAnd by extract the bits, I mean 'reports which bins of 1024 in the specified time have over x energy'.
21:27.46SpeedEvilUnfortunately not.
21:28.05SpeedEvilYou can actually decode the data generally without knowing doppler.
21:28.13pavelm...and something hw needs to do _unless_ you want to communicate with sw heavilly.
21:28.44SpeedEvilThe max delta-v is something like 3Km/s.
21:28.47pavelmspeed: Is not basic "get the lock" loop (per channel) something like "for all dopplers and all phases, try decoding"?
21:28.58SpeedEvilNo.
21:29.09pavelmspeed: which has to be redone each milisecond or so?
21:29.19SpeedEvilThe maximum difference in speed between you and the satellite is something around +-2Km/s.
21:29.42SpeedEvilThis is about a part in 75000, compared with light speed.
21:30.12SpeedEvilThe hammerhead is a bit special.
21:30.25SpeedEvilIt does not 'lock' as such.
21:30.57SpeedEvilIt has 1024 correlators that try to evaluate the energy present in each possible delay 'bin'.
21:31.27SpeedEvilso, you instantly start to recieve a signal if it's there.
21:31.33pavelmspeed: And hh differs from "normal" gps, because normal gps has only 2 correlators per channel?
21:31.42SpeedEvilPretty much.
21:32.03SpeedEvilWhich have to do the 'slide along the waveform looking for lock'. thing. As illustrated in the colorado website.
21:32.09pavelmHmm. Ok. Thats pretty much 'more powerful'
21:32.30pavelmBut I'd expect 1024-byte long packets somewhere :-)
21:32.40SpeedEvilOr 1024 nibble/...
21:32.50pavelmthat's still too long.
21:33.02SpeedEvilOr it's reasonable that there is a 'report bins in which energy >100'
21:33.06*** join/#openmoko greentux (n=lemke@p54b323ae.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
21:33.11pavelmbiggest we have here is something like 64.
21:33.12SpeedEvilWhich would be much shorter.
21:33.28pavelm...maybe it can be 2 bits per bin or something?
21:33.35SpeedEvilPossible.
21:33.43pavelm..no, that does not fit, still.
21:34.02SpeedEvilWhat would help somewhat is more data.
21:34.05pavelm...and this info would have to be broadcast before each navigation message, no?
21:34.15pavelmWe'll get more data soon enough.
21:34.23*** join/#openmoko daniel_bergamini (n=danieber@72-173-29-109.cust.wildblue.net)
21:34.39SpeedEvilI'm thinking of something like 'GPS wrapped in foil' would be handy for nailing down satellite signals.
21:34.48pavelmI'd also like to do "active attack" -- insert my soft between hammerhead and their sw, modify bitstream, and look what happens.
21:34.51*** join/#openmoko stryderjzw (n=stryderj@216.232.85.137)
21:35.01SpeedEvilThat'd be fun.
21:35.08pavelm...you may need lots of foil for hammerhead -- if they can do indoors.
21:35.21SpeedEvilDid you see the filing cabinet one?
21:36.07pavelmspeed: I heard it works inside metal box, but I did not see photos.
21:36.18pavelmIs tomtom 910 really that much better than other GPSes?
21:36.36SpeedEvilhttp://www.globallocate.com/SEMICONDUCTORS/SEMI_LIBRARY_Frameset.htm
21:36.37aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:Hammerhead_protocol]] [[Hammerhead_protocol]]
21:36.39SpeedEvilis interesting.
21:36.46balrog-kunpavelm: i don't know, but it uses a Hammerhead afaik
21:37.08SpeedEvilThey have some very impressive graphs in the pdfs on those.
21:37.30SpeedEvilAnd also other PDFs on teh technology are interesting reading.
21:37.49SpeedEvilGiving hints.
21:37.53SpeedEvilAlas no datasheets :/
21:38.28pavelmspeed: Well, it is _their marketing_. Not sure if it can be trusted.
21:38.32SpeedEvilThere are also links to potentially interesting patents. Which I haven't read.
21:38.36SpeedEvilTrue.
21:41.28pavelmTry this for some interesting reading: http://www.gmat.unsw.edu.au/snap/publications/opensourcegps.pdf . Code is GPLed.
21:44.49ElrondEvening guys.
21:44.58SpeedEvilEvening.
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21:47.55ElrondThat opensourcegps.pdf seems quite interesting.
21:48.19SpeedEvilThough major parts of it are irrelevant - as they are done completely differently, yes, indeed.
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21:52.22pavelm-afcspeed: Yes, hopefully some parts of opensourcegps are already in hw.
21:54.44ElrondHi pavelm!
21:56.01ElrondDoes the opensource gps conform to the itar stuff? ;)
21:56.14SpeedEvilIt doesn't need to.
21:56.31SpeedEvilIt's only if you bundle it with hardware and import/export it that it needs to.
21:56.57pavelmHi, Elrond!
22:01.40CoreDump|homeUI screenshots from today for anyone interested http://hentges.net/tmp/screenshots/Neo1973/20070506/
22:03.19ElrondCoreDump|home - Is this from a fully standard build?
22:03.27SpeedEvilCoreDump|home: interesting.
22:03.38CoreDump|homeyes, from a OM build from today
22:04.02pavelmnice shots... but does the dialer actually work? ;-)
22:04.09*** part/#openmoko wansti (n=wansti@2001:638:602:af01:219:d2ff:fe05:bdce)
22:04.36CoreDump|homepavelm: AFAIK yes
22:04.49CoreDump|hometime to try it out heh
22:04.53ElrondOkay, the texts on the Desktop are too small.
22:06.07pavelmcore: The "Y ?" icon makes me wonder. (I was testing may-01 build, and both sound and gsm were broken).
22:06.56CoreDump|homeElrond: It is indeed small but readable
22:07.08CoreDump|homepavelm: I've inserted a sim and am booting now
22:07.21ElrondCoreDump|home - I have bad eyes. I'd need a microscope.
22:07.43CoreDump|homethe theme is far from finished =)
22:07.58SpeedEvilSilly emulation aid.
22:08.00CoreDump|homeso there is hope they'll 'up the font
22:08.11SpeedEvilObtain a rectangle of cardboard 2.8" diagonal.
22:08.31SpeedEvilHold at normal distance for phone, and back away from screen till same size.
22:08.57ElrondSpeedEvil - ;-)
22:09.06ElrondSpeedEvil - Or print stuff out at 300dpi? ;o)
22:09.19SpeedEvilThat takes me back.
22:09.33SpeedEvil(when my monitor broke)
22:10.10ElrondHuh?!
22:10.12pavelmspeed: Hehe, we did the same with unix shell. But that printer was definitelly not 300dpi :-)
22:10.17DukeOfURL_on the dialer, why the small letters on the '0' and '#' buttons?
22:11.22pavelmelrond: Huh what?
22:11.35CoreDump|homepavelm: the dialer segfaults :\
22:12.14pavelmcore: do you at least get signal icon?
22:13.37Elrondpavelm - I'm surprised over the mud-on-printer thing. Even logging into my linux box would have been a challenge ;) Not to mention, I have no printer at home. ;)
22:14.37pavelmPrinter certainly helps ;-)
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22:14.49SpeedEvilIt was a dot matrix one.
22:15.12SpeedEvilAnd it had a special mode - if it had no data for 1s, it fed the paper up so you could see the last line printed.
22:15.21SpeedEvilAdd fanfeed paper, and ...
22:15.32Elrondhehe.
22:15.50ElrondDid it scroll the paper again down, when the data continued for that line?
22:16.32SpeedEvilYes.
22:16.52ElrondFun. :)
22:17.02CoreDump|homepavelm: no signal:(
22:17.38pavelmcore: Too bad, so gsm part is still not fixed.
22:17.43ElrondCoreDump|home - I heard, that in the Settings Menu, there would be an option to increase the font size... is there one?
22:18.22pavelmspeed: Hammerhead seems nice on paper. I'm just afraid that someone will do "ok, so this is super sensitive.... lets use smaller antena, then".
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22:18.29SpeedEvil:/
22:18.49SpeedEvilThe antenna size does not seem unreasonable.
22:19.47pavelm"ok, so lets use crappy amplifier" :-)
22:20.19ElrondI think, the hammerhead has the lna integrated.
22:20.51CoreDump|homeElrond: http://hentges.net/tmp/screenshots/Neo1973/20070506/fontsize-00.jpg
22:21.41pavelmOk... now scale the font to something reasonable.... Like 8 lines per screen.
22:21.45pavelm...does the UI still work?
22:22.40CoreDump|homethis font-size only affects the desktop font IIRC
22:23.24SpeedEvilElrond: yes, it's integrated.
22:23.45pavelmThat's unusable, then. I need to read my sms-es, too, and would like to read the menus...
22:24.15pavelmwhat was the device with the hammerhead? tomtom 901?
22:24.52pavelmtomtom go 910. Will look at its reviews.
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22:28.21ElrondThe "pick a font" title is also straight unreadable.
22:28.59Elrond(I can read it slowly with my standard glasses on a 100dpi screen.
22:29.00Elrond)
22:31.37pavelmHmm...review claims tomtom go 910 is sirfIII :-(.
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22:31.44pavelmOk, I guess I should get some sleep.
22:32.41SpeedEvilNight.
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22:47.50CoreDump|homeDoes anyone here have the "Nokia Content Publishing Toolkit" thingy for linux? The Nokia idiots removed the linux version
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23:05.41rohre
23:12.38Clayanyone here know how to get a ubuntu compiler working?
23:16.58Clayim really new to programming and i jst got ubuntu
23:18.07ElrondClay - What compiler do you need?
23:18.53Clayi dont know, i want to start programming for the OpenMoko project
23:32.10Claycan anyone help?
23:33.51SuNHm... I think you could _really_ use a beginner's guide :)
23:33.59SuNAny preference for a particular language?
23:34.20SuNThe core apps are all C
23:34.35SuNC with GTK, which gives it an entirely different dimension :)
23:34.53Clayi dont really have a preference for programming language
23:35.34DukeOfURL_Clay:  there's an online book "Dive Into Python" that you can access
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23:36.01DukeOfURL_type 'python' on your linux box to check if it's installed
23:36.14SuNIs Python the right choice though?
23:36.31DukeOfURL_what are you suggesting?  VB?
23:37.09DukeOfURL_Clay:  this will be an extrodinary learning experience for you
23:37.25SuNC :D
23:37.27DukeOfURL_no matter what language you begin with, it will be time well spent
23:37.35SuNI guess so.
23:37.40SuNAS LONG... as it's not VB.
23:37.45DukeOfURL_yuk
23:37.50Clayyeah it probably will
23:38.32DukeOfURL_you'll need to become comfortable with programming on your linux box before you write phone apps
23:39.30hadsPython is a great language. I love it personally, but if you are wanting to shift to C later it is a bit different of a syntax.
23:39.58Clayalright
23:40.32DukeOfURL_Clay:  another alternative would be Java--there is a ton of tutorials at http://java.sun.com
23:41.02DukeOfURL_it is my personal opinion that C has too many guns and knives for a beginning programmer
23:41.43DukeOfURL_you have to know gdb and make, very nontrivial apps
23:41.59SuNJava is a beautiful language.
23:42.00DukeOfURL_and you have to know how to invoke gcc with the proper options
23:42.17hadsI'd have to agree (coming from someone who can follow simple C but not much else).
23:42.19DukeOfURL_Java has syntax much like the C syntax
23:43.04SuNMore or less.
23:43.24SuNIf you... ignore the part where it's Object-Oriented :)
23:43.30DukeOfURL_Clay:  if your Linux box is up and running then you're ready to learn.
23:43.40DukeOfURL_C++ ?
23:45.03SuNNot quite, but I guess there are similarities.
23:45.34Clayso what do u guys think i should go with?
23:45.44DukeOfURL_Clay:  you'll also want to go to B&N and purchase "Vi IMproved--VIM" by Steve Oualline.  You'll need to know how to use an editor.
23:46.27hadsheh :)
23:46.31CoreDump|homelol
23:47.44rwhitby-awaymorning
23:48.25*** join/#openmoko ruskie (i=ruskie@sourcemage/mage/ruskie)
23:48.26xkr47morning
23:48.46rwhitby-airportAnyone here had experience with the Nokia N800?
23:48.46alorilrwhitby-airport: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
23:49.15rwhitby-airportheh, ~botsnack
23:50.10xkr47lol
23:50.29xkr47rwhitby-airport, my friend has, I've only tapped it a few times :)

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