| 00:00.03 | pjz | it slows down communication, at the very least |
| 00:00.19 | guaqua | i'm not swallowing "sure" |
| 00:00.19 | guaqua | slows down, how? |
| 00:00.20 | Elrond | guaqua - But you're quite right... thinking about things in the past: I took part in a fork, just because the main developers and I (we) didn't talk the same language. |
| 00:00.51 | Elrond | pjz - It slows it down in a good way. |
| 00:01.04 | Elrond | pjz - People don't get angry too fast. |
| 00:01.17 | Elrond | A little slower in communication usually is good. |
| 00:01.22 | guaqua | being straight is hoped for, not being an ass |
| 00:02.04 | Elrond | guaqua - It takes a little to phrase a sentence in a political correct way. :) |
| 00:02.04 | pjz | right, being straight is hoped for, and if I have to bend my language in knots to avoid offending some sensitive soul(s), then my communication can't be straight |
| 00:02.21 | Elrond | BUT: While phrasing it, one thinks again about the matter. Which is always good. |
| 00:02.40 | guaqua | i just wouldn't like to see this community lose any enthusiastic female hackers because of insensitivity and bad choosing of words - generally easy things to avoid |
| 00:02.47 | pjz | the problem is who gets to determine what PC language is 'acceptable' |
| 00:03.24 | guaqua | i'm not talking about PC language in general |
| 00:04.10 | guaqua | how would you find a sentence: "not many latinos are able to do such techy things" |
| 00:04.24 | guaqua | is that politically correct? |
| 00:04.38 | pjz | sure |
| 00:04.48 | pjz | it's wrong, but it's not offensive |
| 00:05.01 | guaqua | wrong in what sense? |
| 00:05.04 | pjz | there's plenty of mexican & south american hackers |
| 00:05.28 | abraxa_ | guaqua: Actually that could be just stating a fact if the majority of latios lacks the knowledge/education to do so |
| 00:05.28 | guaqua | there's also an implication of latinos being less able to do those things in general |
| 00:05.47 | pjz | guaqua: I disagree |
| 00:05.51 | guaqua | hmm |
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| 00:05.56 | guaqua | maybe that was a bad example |
| 00:06.08 | guaqua | the original sentence had a different sound, in my opinion |
| 00:06.31 | pjz | guaqua: I don't think that implication is there |
| 00:06.37 | abraxa_ | To me it's a delicate subject either way :) |
| 00:06.51 | guaqua | anyway |
| 00:07.04 | guaqua | just think before you say anything |
| 00:07.12 | pjz | and the solution to it being delicate is to not *treat* it as delicate by not reading more into it (via implication, for instance) than it actually says |
| 00:07.42 | guaqua | pjz: if you have a thick skin it doesn't mean the others have |
| 00:08.09 | pjz | guaqua: so we should feed the men babyfood because the children can't eat steak? |
| 00:08.12 | guaqua | pjz: it doesn't give you the right to treat them the way you yourself can be treated |
| 00:08.38 | Elrond | pjz - If more children are around: Yes. |
| 00:09.19 | pjz | Elrond: maybe so. But then, by your own lights, you're being discriminatory against the men! |
| 00:09.54 | guaqua | off to sleep |
| 00:10.19 | guaqua | nighty night, keep the big wheel rolling |
| 00:10.25 | pjz | guaqua: g'night! |
| 00:10.27 | abraxa_ | Night night |
| 00:10.40 | Elrond | pjz - Then get babyfood and steak out. ;-) |
| 00:10.53 | Elrond | guaqua - Night. :) |
| 00:12.25 | pjz | Elrond: heh. My point is just that I think people shouldn't be castigated for the implications someone chooses to read into their statement because anyone can choose to read anything into any statement. |
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| 00:13.31 | Elrond | pjz - You are _also_ right. |
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| 00:14.39 | Elrond | When offended people complain, people should start to think over their peach, though. |
| 00:16.41 | pjz | sure |
| 00:16.54 | pjz | but to get back to the impetus of this... did anyone complain? |
| 00:17.16 | Elrond | guaqua complained a little. ;-) |
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| 00:17.45 | abraxa_ | pjz: Hard to tell - maybe if a girl/woman would've been around she would've read and feeling offended without saying anything |
| 00:17.51 | abraxa_ | Though that's just pure speculation again |
| 00:19.20 | Elrond | pissing of (good) people is too easy. |
| 00:19.21 | Elrond | I saw it happen too many times. |
| 00:20.42 | pjz | hrm |
| 00:20.44 | pjz | anyway |
| 00:20.58 | pjz | anyone want to help me debug a bug in the contacts app? |
| 00:21.00 | Elrond | And really: One of the really good things of openmoko is the good atmosphere in here. |
| 00:21.31 | abraxa_ | Elrond: Yeah, we get free drugs here :) |
| 00:21.44 | abraxa_ | pjz: What bug? |
| 00:21.55 | pjz | Elrond: right, and one thing I like about it is that people don't get stomped on for saying something that sounds wrong even when they don't mean it that way :) |
| 00:22.13 | Elrond | pjz - Yeah. :) |
| 00:22.22 | pjz | abraxa_: if you're editing a contact and add another field of any type, you can't then remove that field |
| 00:23.14 | pjz | abraxa_: it's in contacts-contact-pane.c |
| 00:23.41 | pjz | abraxa_: field_button_remove_cb |
| 00:23.47 | Elrond | So don't get this wrong now: I need sleep. :) |
| 00:23.55 | pjz | Elrond: heh, g'night! |
| 00:24.19 | pjz | abraxa_: the remove variable in that routine is *never* true |
| 00:24.41 | pjz | abraxa_: it's always showing up as false and just clearing the text |
| 00:25.02 | Elrond | pjz - If you don't find the bug until in 18 hours, I'll go and take a deep loo at the code too. :) |
| 00:25.32 | Elrond | So, good night people! :) |
| 00:26.17 | abraxa_ | Unfortunately I'm not familiar with that piece =x |
| 00:33.34 | pjz | my problem is I really don't know how to build it for x86 so I can test it |
| 00:35.03 | rwhitby | morning |
| 00:35.13 | pjz | howdy |
| 00:35.30 | pjz | rwhitby: how do I use bitbake to build just the openmoko stuff for x86? |
| 00:35.59 | rwhitby | make setup-machine-x86 openmoko-devel-image |
| 00:36.07 | pjz | rwhitby: (right now MokoMakefile is dying trying to build the entire image for x86 due to some kind of bug in libelf |
| 00:36.38 | rwhitby | ah, yes. nothing I can do about that stuff in mokomakefile. I get the same problem but don't know how to fix it. |
| 00:36.47 | pjz | yeah |
| 00:37.07 | pjz | so how do I bypass mokomakefile and use bitbake directly to build just the openmoko apps? |
| 00:37.27 | rwhitby | make package-<foo> I think |
| 00:37.46 | rwhitby | or "cd build ; . ../setup-env ; bitbake <foo>" |
| 00:37.58 | rwhitby | (the lone dot is important) |
| 00:38.38 | rwhitby | but that will still probably depend on libelf. |
| 00:38.49 | rwhitby | (if done with bitbake and OE) |
| 00:38.56 | abraxa_ | pjz: What bug about libelf are you getting? Maybe it's the one that's in bugzilla... |
| 00:39.22 | rwhitby | If you're really asking about how to use qmake or autconf to build the openmoko apps from svn only without bitbake or OE, then I haven't set anything up for that yet. |
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| 00:41.16 | pjz | gotcha |
| 00:41.33 | pjz | you were just the one person here I knew was an OE hacker to some extent |
| 00:41.36 | pjz | I know zero about OE |
| 00:41.48 | rwhitby | I don't even have my P0 phone at the moment - I gave it to shenki to play with while I knew I was going to be too busy to do anything with it. |
| 00:44.38 | pjz | hrm, maybe I'll just have to hack together a bog-standard Makefile buildsystem for OM-2007 |
| 00:45.31 | abraxa_ | A while ago I compiled the libs here as well - only using the shipped makefiles |
| 00:45.42 | pjz | oh, using the qmake stuff? |
| 00:45.44 | abraxa_ | So maybe you won't even need that |
| 00:45.57 | abraxa_ | I think so, it's been a fair bit :) |
| 00:46.42 | rwhitby | pjz: it should be easy to use the existing autoconf stuff in the svn. if someone works out how to do it I'll be happy to add it to mokomakefile |
| 00:47.00 | abraxa_ | Just I didn't know how I could have them put the resulting binaries *not* into /usr... |
| 00:50.22 | pjz | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:50.25 | pjz | ody >/moko-gsmd-marshal.h |
| 00:50.26 | pjz | that's... weird |
| 00:50.34 | pjz | putting a .h in / |
| 00:51.01 | rwhitby | undefined variable? |
| 00:51.14 | pjz | no, that line is from the Makefile |
| 00:51.43 | rwhitby | oh, that's just plain wrong then |
| 00:51.51 | pjz | that's what I thought :) |
| 00:52.00 | rwhitby | should it be a >> ? |
| 00:52.11 | pjz | though... it could be an undefined var in whatever qmake uses to build the makefiles? |
| 00:52.23 | pjz | or... hrm, there's a Makefile.am in there |
| 00:53.18 | pjz | yeah, undefined variable 'srcdir' |
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| 00:56.35 | pjz | this effort clearly needs beer |
| 00:56.41 | abraxa_ | lol |
| 00:57.55 | abraxa_ | I just tried building the libs and it works so far |
| 00:58.12 | abraxa_ | Used supplied autogen.sh, then qmake/make in each lib dir |
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| 00:59.05 | pjz | oh, interesting |
| 00:59.08 | pjz | trying that |
| 00:59.37 | abraxa_ | Just.. hm.. the libs depending on glib/gtk can't find it |
| 01:02.54 | pjz | apt-get install ... |
| 01:03.23 | abraxa_ | I have both but the include paths don't get send to gcc |
| 01:03.28 | abraxa_ | sent* |
| 01:04.02 | pjz | hrm |
| 01:07.06 | abraxa_ | Any progress on your side? |
| 01:07.13 | pjz | a little |
| 01:07.24 | pjz | running autogen.sh multiple times seems to help |
| 01:07.25 | pjz | somehow |
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| 01:08.47 | pjz | I installed libecal and some other libs it wanted |
| 01:09.07 | pjz | checking for OMOKO... configure: error: Package requirements (openmoko-libs) were not met: |
| 01:09.10 | pjz | No package 'openmoko-libs' found |
| 01:09.13 | pjz | Consider adjusting the PKG_CONFIG_PATH environment variable if you |
| 01:09.15 | pjz | installed software in a non-standard prefix. |
| 01:09.23 | pjz | what should PKG_CONFIG_PATH be? |
| 01:09.51 | abraxa_ | If memory serves me well it's the path where pkgconfig can find the .pc files |
| 01:10.16 | pjz | hrm. there aren't any of those. |
| 01:11.33 | abraxa_ | How did you resolve the libgsmd dependency? |
| 01:12.04 | pjz | I didn't :P |
| 01:12.04 | abraxa_ | lol |
| 01:12.28 | pjz | I switched over to trying to build the app |
| 01:13.30 | abraxa_ | Actually it should be easier to just have MokoMakefile build the entire rootfs for x86 and just chroot into it |
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| 01:19.00 | pjz | ...except for the bit where it errors out due to libelf or something |
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| 01:26.30 | pjz | I think this counts as 'too difficult' for your average wannabe contributor |
| 01:26.45 | abraxa_ | "this"? |
| 01:27.13 | pjz | the openmoko tree in svn |
| 01:27.25 | pjz | and the difficulties we're having trying to just get it to build |
| 01:28.03 | abraxa_ | Indeed, but I'm not fussed - it's to be expected at this stage with so few people dedicated to the project |
| 01:28.08 | pjz | I guess |
| 01:28.24 | abraxa_ | I'm 99% your libelf issue is this btw: http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=264 |
| 01:28.32 | abraxa_ | 99% sure that your... |
| 01:29.16 | pjz | yup, that's it |
| 01:30.20 | abraxa_ | Good :) |
| 01:30.30 | abraxa_ | Then at least you know how to get around it |
| 01:31.14 | pjz | yup |
| 01:31.19 | pjz | cool, thanks for pointing that out |
| 01:32.07 | abraxa_ | Yupyup, it's what this channel is for ;) |
| 01:33.18 | abraxa_ | And with that I'm off to bed as well... nighty night |
| 01:34.09 | pjz | gnite! |
| 01:34.12 | pjz | sleep well! |
| 01:34.45 | abraxa_ | You, too, whenever you do :) |
| 01:35.48 | pjz | still early here in TX :) |
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| 02:56.35 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03laforge * r1910 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-20061030-neo1973.patch: * make LCM SPI timings slower (200uS clock cycle rather 150uS, 90mS Top instead of 50mS) to work around bad timing info in data sheet |
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| 04:13.46 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03mickey * r1911 10/trunk/oe/packages/uboot/uboot-gta01_svn.bb: add local git/svn patchset revision to uboot compiled-in version info |
| 05:34.35 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wishlist:Wikipedia_Mirror]] [[Wish_List]] |
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| 06:30.45 | simon_ | counter? |
| 06:30.45 | aloril | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; P0: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review; a week, 2 days 17:29:19 (9.729 +-3.5 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-05-13); 4 months, a week, 4 days (134.229 +-15.0 days) for mass market (2007-09-15): see topic for more info (1092;194) |
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| 07:14.33 | Hopscotch | good morning |
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| 07:35.36 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Neo1973]] |
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| 07:37.56 | Magon | hi all |
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| 08:11.35 | aloril | (script) openmoko-devel: Werner Almesberger <werner at openmoko.org> Re: Finger text input idea |
| 08:13.35 | aloril | (script) openmoko-devel: Werner Almesberger <werner at openmoko.org> Re: Finger text input idea |
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| 08:36.59 | ninHer | hi all |
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| 08:58.49 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03laforge * r1912 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-s3c2440.patch: |
| 08:58.49 | CIA-24 | openmoko: NAND boot (steppingstone) fixes for S3C244x: |
| 08:58.49 | CIA-24 | openmoko: * fix pointer increment typo |
| 08:58.49 | CIA-24 | openmoko: * fix bitshift typo |
| 08:58.49 | CIA-24 | openmoko: * check correct busy bit |
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| 09:09.59 | wansti | hey there! |
| 09:11.12 | wansti | i'd like to get a few sounds finished this weekend... |
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| 09:14.50 | buz | counter |
| 09:14.50 | aloril | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: a week, 2 days 14:45:14 (9.615 +-3.5 days) (1093;194) |
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| 09:34.22 | pavelm | good morning, everyone! |
| 09:34.35 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]] |
| 09:34.37 | pavelm | (I find the late-night debate about political correctness "amusing"). |
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| 09:37.38 | abraxa_ | Morning, Pavel :) |
| 09:37.58 | SpeedEvil | Has there been any news about the screen problems? |
| 09:38.16 | SpeedEvil | The run in a few days of PCBs is quite irrelevant if there are no screens. |
| 09:38.42 | abraxa_ | Didn't Sean say they have some in stock now? |
| 09:38.48 | abraxa_ | That's what I remember |
| 09:39.30 | pavelm | actually, screens. |
| 09:39.34 | SpeedEvil | I only saw the 'we have 100 or so' |
| 09:39.44 | pavelm | I don't care if they are VGA.. but can we get something sunlight-readable? |
| 09:40.39 | SpeedEvil | :( |
| 09:41.10 | SpeedEvil | With non-reflective displays, you need to _really_ wind up the brightness of the backlight to see much. |
| 09:41.36 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03laforge * r1913 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/ (uboot-license.patch uboot-smdk2440.patch): (log message trimmed) |
| 09:41.36 | CIA-24 | openmoko: SMDK2440 support: |
| 09:41.36 | CIA-24 | openmoko: * various cosmetic fixes of smdk2440.h |
| 09:41.36 | CIA-24 | openmoko: * use first serial port for SMDK2440 (CON14 on PCB) |
| 09:41.36 | CIA-24 | openmoko: * enable hardware flow control |
| 09:41.37 | CIA-24 | openmoko: * enable FAT and ext2 support |
| 09:41.41 | CIA-24 | openmoko: * enable MMC support (still broken) |
| 09:42.01 | SpeedEvil | Consider that at best the display absorbs 5/6ths of the light. |
| 09:42.05 | SpeedEvil | And it's never this good. |
| 09:42.14 | pavelm | speed: olpc gets it right :-) |
| 09:42.47 | SpeedEvil | Yeah. |
| 09:42.57 | pavelm | nokia cellphones also have sunlight-readable displays. |
| 09:42.57 | KragenSitaker | pavelm: are the current screens not sunlight-readable? |
| 09:43.00 | aloril | KragenSitaker: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
| 09:43.55 | SpeedEvil | KragenSitaker: there is a bugzilla from sean saying no. |
| 09:43.55 | KragenSitaker | aloril: thanks, but i'm reading it now |
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| 09:43.57 | SpeedEvil | pavelm: How would you qualify the sunlight readability? Is it visible shaded with hand? |
| 09:44.00 | pavelm | I was not able to read much at sunlight. (Of course, contributing factor is that om uses realy _tiny_ fonts, which is fatal mistake for a phone, too). |
| 09:44.11 | KragenSitaker | pavelm, SpeedEvil: that's a pretty serious drawback |
| 09:44.19 | SpeedEvil | Most phones suffer the same though. |
| 09:44.26 | SpeedEvil | Except black and white ones. |
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| 09:44.34 | koen | of course you can make the fonts bigger in the settingspanel |
| 09:44.42 | koen | which some people just don't seem to get |
| 09:44.53 | KragenSitaker | i guess i've never used a non-black-and-white phone |
| 09:45.04 | KragenSitaker | i'm used to spending US$20 or US$30 on a cellphone |
| 09:45.21 | pavelm | speed: Most phones suffer, but om suffers badly. I do not think shading helped. |
| 09:45.22 | KragenSitaker | i spent US$150 back in 2001, but probably shouldn't have |
| 09:45.41 | SpeedEvil | Black and white LCDs can trivially reflect 50% of the light - you lose half the light through a polariser. |
| 09:45.49 | SpeedEvil | It's not quite that good of course. |
| 09:45.54 | KragenSitaker | i made my laptop screen sunlight-readable by using 12-point bold black-on-white text |
| 09:46.28 | SpeedEvil | Colour LCDs have horrible problems doing htis. |
| 09:46.51 | KragenSitaker | i think that LCD that I did that with was a filterless color LCD |
| 09:46.59 | SpeedEvil | As you've then got 2/3 of the light getting absorbed by hitting the wrong color of phosphor. |
| 09:47.02 | KragenSitaker | it had polarizing filters but no color filters |
| 09:47.14 | KragenSitaker | there's no phosphor in an LCD :) |
| 09:47.21 | SpeedEvil | Sigh. |
| 09:47.28 | SpeedEvil | s/phosphor/filter/ |
| 09:47.53 | KragenSitaker | there's no color filter in some LCDs either |
| 09:47.55 | webjames | you could always get a large hat. but seriously laptops in the sun, very annoying |
| 09:48.12 | KragenSitaker | my tecra 8100 used an arrangement of diffraction gratings. |
| 09:48.41 | SpeedEvil | pavelm: have you seen olpc screen? If so, how would you compare it when backlit? |
| 09:48.50 | SpeedEvil | Or is it backlit. |
| 09:49.05 | KragenSitaker | i've only seen the olpc screen in backlit mode :( |
| 09:49.31 | SpeedEvil | I mean compare it backlit witht eh backlit neo screen |
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| 09:50.52 | KragenSitaker | oh hey, do you think the information that the neo1973 is quad-band GSM should maybe be in the FAQ on the Wiki? |
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| 09:54.22 | webjames | i'm having trouble writing an 'i' with the stroke recogniser |
| 09:55.02 | balrog-kun | what word are you typing? |
| 09:55.17 | webjames | i'm just typing abcdefghi |
| 09:55.28 | balrog-kun | ah okay |
| 09:55.39 | balrog-kun | sometimes you can find synonyms that don't contain an 'i' |
| 09:55.55 | webjames | oh ok |
| 09:55.59 | KragenSitaker | heh, common problem? :) |
| 09:56.17 | webjames | how do you draw a space? |
| 09:56.26 | KragenSitaker | how's battery life on these first-gen phones? |
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| 10:05.53 | pavelm | speed: Yes, I have olpc here. It is kind of low-res in color/backlight mode, but black/white daylight mode is really cool. |
| 10:06.04 | pavelm | speed: Just using green font on black background is bad idea on olpc. |
| 10:07.10 | KragenSitaker | pavelm: why bad idea? |
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| 10:09.42 | pavelm | kragen: Due to olpc screen constuction, it looks ugly. |
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| 10:15.38 | guaqua | whenever the processor is on it takes a lot more power |
| 10:15.38 | KragenSitaker | can the processor turn on and off quickly? |
| 10:15.39 | KragenSitaker | olpc is excited to have suspend/resume down to 133ms |
| 10:15.39 | guaqua | yes, i believe so |
| 10:15.39 | guaqua | dunno if it's like that though |
| 10:16.06 | buz | much faster than that afaik |
| 10:16.29 | Stephmw | some arm processors also consume less power when they're actually busy |
| 10:16.38 | Stephmw | rather than just idle |
| 10:16.41 | buz | mind you arm cpus were designed for mobile use |
| 10:16.47 | buz | the creepy geode in OLPC not really |
| 10:16.52 | xkr47 | that would be nice for openmoko too :) |
| 10:16.56 | guaqua | xkr47: wouldn't mind that either |
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| 10:17.20 | Stephmw | I guess arm cpus were too expensive? |
| 10:17.22 | guaqua | but i guess it's just a matter of coding |
| 10:17.23 | KragenSitaker | well, this arm cpu, anyway |
| 10:17.32 | xkr47 | someone should start a project like that |
| 10:17.36 | buz | Stephmw: try amd doesnt sell arm |
| 10:17.37 | KragenSitaker | i don't know why the olpc picked the geode instead of an arm or three |
| 10:17.46 | KragenSitaker | surely amd sells arm |
| 10:17.54 | buz | i dont think so |
| 10:17.56 | KragenSitaker | are there any cpu makers that don't? |
| 10:17.57 | buz | alchemy is mips |
| 10:18.24 | guaqua | xkr47: you could probably implement it through webkit and js, but it wouldn't be very efficient |
| 10:19.01 | buz | that will run circles around olpc |
| 10:19.21 | guaqua | buz: url to that? |
| 10:19.28 | KragenSitaker | hmm, amd isn't listed in http://www.arm.com/community/all_partners.php?PageTitle=All%20Partners&display=7 |
| 10:19.32 | KragenSitaker | so maybe not! |
| 10:19.53 | buz | http://feeds.arstechnica.com/~r/arstechnica/BAaf/~3/114043222/20070503-asustek-to-launch-249-classmate-pc-in-july.html |
| 10:20.16 | buz | arm should rather be cheaper than geode |
| 10:20.49 | buz | the geode is said to be based on a cyrix core which if true says about everything |
| 10:21.07 | KragenSitaker | it's going to be pretty difficult to run circles around olpc in some ways --- always-on mesh networking, instant-on, diskless operation, dual-mode display, waterproof keyboard |
| 10:21.14 | KragenSitaker | nontoxic backlight and batteries |
| 10:21.20 | KragenSitaker | time will tell if those actually matter |
| 10:21.45 | buz | i prefer a plain 800*480 lcd to a weird display that runs a 400*300 in color mode |
| 10:21.51 | KragenSitaker | i think the geode is pretty different from the 5x86; for one thing, iirc, it emulates the x86 in software |
| 10:21.59 | KragenSitaker | 400x300? |
| 10:22.04 | buz | emulate x86? huuuh? |
| 10:22.24 | KragenSitaker | the native instruction set is something weird, like with the transmeta chips |
| 10:22.31 | buz | KragenSitaker: in color mode, you lose 2 out of 3 pixels |
| 10:22.45 | buz | ah well, thats true for about any x86 cpu these days |
| 10:22.50 | guaqua | olpc is pretty progressive and i hope they'll be able to get some of that experimental hardware to the mainstream aswell |
| 10:23.02 | KragenSitaker | buz: yeah, but the color resolution is 1200x900 iirc |
| 10:23.09 | buz | no thats black and white |
| 10:23.28 | KragenSitaker | oh, so it's only 400x900 in color? that doesn't seem right from what i've seen |
| 10:23.37 | KragenSitaker | buz: no, most of them translate the x86 opcodes into micro-ops in hardware |
| 10:23.48 | pavelm | buz: You'd have to see the display. It is cool. |
| 10:23.55 | buz | well the difference hardware/software is quite blurred at that point |
| 10:24.12 | KragenSitaker | not really! |
| 10:24.24 | pavelm | kragen: see olpc website. Basically no arm cpus at time of olpc design could do FPU. |
| 10:24.24 | buz | n. Mode 2 is high resolution 1200x900 black and white reflective sunlight readable with 0.2W MAX power consumption. |
| 10:24.36 | KragenSitaker | pavelm: oh, thanks, that makes a lot of sense |
| 10:24.58 | KragenSitaker | buz: ok, thanks; so what's the color res then? |
| 10:25.04 | KragenSitaker | it looked like 800x600 when i saw it |
| 10:25.24 | pavelm | if bw is 1200x900, color will be 600x450 |
| 10:25.44 | buz | well i find conflicting info about color |
| 10:25.49 | KragenSitaker | pavelm: i thought it only lost 2/3 res in color mode, not 3/4 |
| 10:25.50 | buz | anything from 400x300 to 800x600 |
| 10:26.10 | KragenSitaker | i just mean it looked like 800x600 --- not that i think that's what it was |
| 10:26.22 | buz | KragenSitaker: on 7" its not easy to tell |
| 10:26.37 | KragenSitaker | no, and i didn't spend that much time playing with it |
| 10:26.39 | buz | friend of mine has a 7" libretto that runs at 1280*720 |
| 10:26.43 | buz | you cant see pixels |
| 10:27.03 | buz | but realistically, you cant type on the thing, either |
| 10:27.04 | pavelm | kragen: Ok, I'm not really sure. |
| 10:27.07 | buz | and i have small hands |
| 10:27.08 | balrog-kun | well, who needs pixels! |
| 10:27.18 | balrog-kun | we don't need no stinking pixels |
| 10:27.40 | KragenSitaker | buz: i had a hard time typing on the olpc too, which i think is partly a result of it being designed for six-year-olds. and i do not have small hands |
| 10:28.10 | buz | well obviously you would have. 7" is just not very much ;) |
| 10:28.15 | SpeedEvil | The geode has some interesting power saving features. |
| 10:28.27 | SpeedEvil | For example, it has hardware framebuffer compression. |
| 10:28.38 | SpeedEvil | To reduce RAM bandwidth and hence RAM power needed. |
| 10:28.46 | KragenSitaker | that's cool |
| 10:30.05 | KragenSitaker | pavelm: i don't understand why FP performance is so important though |
| 10:30.51 | SpeedEvil | It reads an uncompressed line from RAM, then compresses it to a buffer (and writes to the display) if the line stays untouched, it's read from the buffer. If it's dirtied, the next time it's read uncompressed and recompressed again. |
| 10:33.08 | abraxa_ | KragenSitaker: My guess is that they chose geode so Windows can run on it. |
| 10:33.12 | abraxa_ | Windows doesn't run on ARM. |
| 10:33.26 | balrog-kun | some versions do |
| 10:33.48 | abraxa_ | Some do? Oh, I didn't know that. |
| 10:33.58 | Paavo_ | Win CE |
| 10:34.01 | balrog-kun | the Windows CE on iPaqs |
| 10:34.03 | pH5 | windows mobile does, but that's a completely different system |
| 10:34.03 | balrog-kun | there are also MIPS and alpha builds |
| 10:34.11 | abraxa_ | And yeah, you can tell that I'm quite bitter about the OLPC + Microsoft marriage. |
| 10:34.16 | KragenSitaker | abraxa_: i don't think so --- if that were the case, they wouldn't hvae designed it originally for the geode lx700, which is way too slow to run windows well |
| 10:34.27 | KragenSitaker | abraxa_: did you read jim gettys's post on the matter? |
| 10:34.42 | abraxa_ | Who is that? (that should answer the question) |
| 10:35.02 | KragenSitaker | here, read this. you'll feel a lot better. http://www.gettysfamily.org/wordpress/?p=34 |
| 10:35.47 | abraxa_ | Thanks |
| 10:36.53 | pavelm | kragen: Maybe they want to play mpeg or something. |
| 10:37.23 | KragenSitaker | pavelm: oh, aren't there integer-only mpeg decoders? |
| 10:37.48 | pavelm | kragen: Not sure. But I believe that's why they did it. (Writing int-only decoders is perceived hard). |
| 10:42.24 | abraxa_ | KragenSitaker: Actually I'm a fanatic anti-Microsoft zealot and this article doesn't make me feel better at all because it'll allow Microsoft to use the OPLC platform to stretch its virtual monopoly out to countries where computers weren't widely available before. |
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| 10:43.26 | koen | you'd want fixed-point decoders, not integer decoders |
| 10:44.03 | KragenSitaker | koen: can you elaborate? how does mpeg compression work? |
| 10:44.22 | koen | you need some precision after the comma |
| 10:44.25 | KragenSitaker | well, anyway, openmoko is really exciting, and i'm looking forward to trying out dozens of new UIs on a neo1973 |
| 10:50.24 | pavelm | koen: Yep, you are right. I was told they are still hard to write, for all that multimedia formats around. |
| 10:51.13 | KragenSitaker | you do fixed-point math with integer math instructions, though, and e.g. a fixed-point add is an integer add |
| 10:51.34 | KragenSitaker | while a fixed-point multiply may be as complicated as an integer multiply followed by a bit shift |
| 10:51.51 | KragenSitaker | so when it comes to choices of CPU, it's a distinction without a difference |
| 10:52.35 | aloril | (script) openmoko-devel: Werner Almesberger <werner at openmoko.org> Re: Finger text input idea |
| 10:52.54 | SpeedEvil | 'hard to write' may more equal 'i have to write it, not compile it' though. |
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| 10:53.35 | KragenSitaker | (i may not know much about mpeg, but i do know a bit about fixed-point math :) |
| 10:54.17 | pavelm | speed: Yep, that is probably very precise. |
| 10:54.46 | SpeedEvil | Is there an 'strace' for x11 events? |
| 10:55.44 | zecke | SpeedEvil: something similiar |
| 10:56.14 | KragenSitaker | well, there is ltrace, but i assume you want a protocol intermediary |
| 10:56.20 | SpeedEvil | Basically. |
| 10:56.32 | SpeedEvil | I'd like something like strace, but for X calls. |
| 10:57.23 | SpeedEvil | Trying to work out why mplayer is moving its window to the middle of the screen, which is annoying. |
| 10:57.32 | koen | SpeedEvil: xscope? |
| 10:58.11 | koen | SpeedEvil: http://blogs.sun.com/alanc/entry/xscope |
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| 10:58.50 | pavelm | Ok, bye for now |
| 10:58.54 | SpeedEvil | Thanks. |
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| 11:46.43 | Borzo | Hi there...is there someone? |
| 11:46.44 | aloril | Borzo: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
| 11:59.52 | thomasg_ | Borzo, well, there are 222 people |
| 12:04.53 | SpeedEvil | Some are bots. |
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| 12:06.07 | Borzo | ok... I found all i need in the faqs |
| 12:06.18 | Borzo | thanks anyway |
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| 12:26.44 | abraxa_ | Now that was a rather... odd.. visitor |
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| 12:34.19 | xkr47 | abraxa_, :D |
| 12:34.32 | xkr47 | abraxa_, there must be something wrong with the FAQ |
| 12:34.41 | xkr47 | maybe it scared him/her away at the instant :P |
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| 12:35.31 | woglinde | counter |
| 12:35.32 | aloril | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: a week, 2 days 11:24:33 (9.475 +-3.5 days) (1094;194) |
| 12:35.34 | KragenSitaker | xkr47: maybe it just answered the question ;) |
| 12:35.44 | SpeedEvil | Aha - the FAQ is perfect now! :) |
| 12:36.00 | xkr47 | :) |
| 12:36.39 | xkr47 | 1094;194 = ? |
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| 12:59.43 | buz | maybe the faq links to goatse |
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| 13:04.58 | CoreDump|home | IIRC the original goatse domain was sold a few weeks ago. Good riddance |
| 13:14.09 | abraxa_ | We should make it link to tubgirl then |
| 13:31.40 | abraxa_ | Art made of holes? |
| 13:32.02 | abraxa_ | I wonder if it's been done before. |
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| 13:39.51 | SpeedEvil | I was referring to the earlier mentioned image, around the lanyard attach hole in the neo. |
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| 13:44.23 | abraxa_ | Oh |
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| 14:09.41 | dotmef | counter |
| 14:09.41 | aloril | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: a week, 2 days 09:50:23 (9.410 +-3.5 days) (1095;194) |
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| 14:50.58 | DukeOfURL | is freenode running today? |
| 14:54.03 | CoreDump|home | well....I would think so as this channel is hosted by freenode... |
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| 15:05.55 | DukeOfURL | well...your individual node could by availablle but the rest of the node network down, as happened yesterday |
| 15:06.10 | DukeOfURL | s/rest/others/ |
| 15:06.19 | koen | splitnode |
| 15:07.37 | DukeOfURL | apt is a bot? |
| 15:07.45 | DukeOfURL | s/bot/robot/ |
| 15:08.03 | DukeOfURL | s/robot/non human/ |
| 15:08.29 | DukeOfURL | cute |
| 15:16.44 | CoreDump|home | more like bloody annoying ;) |
| 15:22.36 | *** part/#openmoko wansti (n=wansti@b062.apm.etc.tu-bs.de) |
| 15:23.40 | DukeOfURL | does apt run on every channel or just this one? |
| 15:23.55 | xkr47 | just this one |
| 15:30.29 | koen | ~apt |
| 15:30.41 | apt | hmm... apt is the debian package manager and nothing to do with ibot, infobot, jbot or purl |
| 15:30.43 | koen | apt: who are you? |
| 15:30.46 | apt | koen: I think you lost me on that one |
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| 15:33.55 | webjames | counter? |
| 15:33.56 | aloril | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; P0: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review; a week, 2 days 08:26:09 (9.351 +-3.5 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-05-13); 4 months, a week, 3 days (133.851 +-15.0 days) for mass market (2007-09-15): see topic for more info (1096;194) |
| 15:34.36 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Disassembling_Neo1973]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] |
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| 17:34.33 | rob_w | how about the new phase 0 units with the hardware fix , anything in sight ? |
| 17:35.01 | abraxa_ | Nope |
| 17:36.15 | rob_w | thx |
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| 17:46.23 | SrRaven | !counter |
| 17:46.57 | serzholino | counter? |
| 17:46.57 | aloril | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; P0: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review; a week, 2 days 06:13:07 (9.259 +-3.5 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-05-13); 4 months, a week, 3 days (133.759 +-15.0 days) for mass market (2007-09-15): see topic for more info (1097;195) |
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| 17:51.58 | abraxa_ | So quiet today... |
| 17:53.01 | thresh | everyone's getting drunk |
| 17:53.02 | SrRaven | everyones drunk |
| 17:53.14 | thresh | :D |
| 17:53.18 | thresh | t'h'resh |
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| 17:56.35 | abraxa_ | Just because it's saturday or is today a special day and I'm not aware of it? ;) |
| 17:59.00 | pjz | heya abraxa_ |
| 17:59.11 | abraxa_ | Hewwos |
| 17:59.28 | abraxa_ | Ohh nice |
| 17:59.33 | rob_w | abraxa_, saturday is a good enough reason for me |
| 17:59.34 | abraxa_ | What's working/not working? |
| 17:59.52 | pjz | ** (contacts:24109): WARNING **: Pixbuf theme: Cannot load pixmap file /usr/share/themes/openmoko-standard/gtk-2.0/gtkhpaned-handle.png: Couldn't recognize the image file format for file '/usr/share/themes/openmoko-standard/gtk-2.0/gtkhpaned-handle.png' |
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| 18:00.54 | pjz | also /usr/share/themes/openmoko-standard/gtk-2.0/mokoicons:13: Unable to locate image file in pixmap_path: "openmoko-action-button-address-icon.png" |
| 18:01.05 | abraxa_ | Hm, I didn't see those before... |
| 18:01.13 | pjz | that last one is puzzling because that file is in the same directory as the mokoicons file |
| 18:03.13 | pjz | I was wondering if it could be some kind of library issue |
| 18:03.30 | pjz | due to differing lib versions on the host vs target |
| 18:07.57 | abraxa_ | How did you run the app? |
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| 18:51.50 | pjz | like it says at http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Getting_Openmoko_working_on_host_with_Xoo |
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| 19:11.51 | Moo^^ | pjz: check hwo to get working with Xerk stuff |
| 19:12.01 | Moo^^ | you need to run pango and gtk icon scripts |
| 19:12.37 | webjames | Hey |
| 19:20.21 | *** join/#openmoko silwol (n=silwol@81.5.237.142) |
| 19:36.36 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[OpenMoko_compatible_cellphone_providers]] [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] |
| 19:46.04 | pjz | Moo^^: cool, thanks |
| 19:46.17 | pjz | I also switched to using Xephyr from Xoo |
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| 20:13.25 | balrog-kun | yesh! i'm logged on the (virtual) Neo over network |
| 20:13.30 | Moo^^ | pjz: Please edit Xoo article and add reference to Xephyr at the beginning of it :) |
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| 20:22.19 | pjz | balrog-kun: woo! under qemu? |
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| 20:29.23 | balrog-kun | pjz: yep, and my PC sees a Neo connected to the USB port |
| 20:29.45 | balrog-kun | (while there isn't any - just checked :P ) |
| 20:30.09 | pjz | balrog-kun: very very cool! |
| 20:30.35 | roh | ah... so the usb-gadget stuff is working? |
| 20:30.46 | KragenSitaker | i have another kind of dumb question that isn't in the FAQ. if you pop out the SIM from your current phone and stick it in the Neo1973, is your carrier aware that you've changed phones, and therefore in a position to block it if they don't like the Neo1973? |
| 20:30.50 | pjz | balrog-kun: svn commit! push out that patch! |
| 20:31.00 | SpeedEvil | yes. |
| 20:31.01 | roh | i've tried a qemu-build yesterday... thats new, isn't it? |
| 20:31.09 | SpeedEvil | They can. |
| 20:31.16 | SpeedEvil | At least one carrier will. |
| 20:31.22 | SpeedEvil | '3' in the UK. |
| 20:31.32 | balrog-kun | pjz: yes, i will, but it needs a major clean-up first |
| 20:31.46 | SpeedEvil | Who will ban your SIM if you're not using a phone that can work on 3G. |
| 20:31.53 | balrog-kun | roh: seems to work finally :) |
| 20:32.20 | roh | balrog-kun how does it connect to my host-pc usbstack? |
| 20:32.29 | roh | special driver of some kind? |
| 20:32.31 | KragenSitaker | SpeedEvil: huh, interesting. so basically any old GSM phone will cause problems with '3'? |
| 20:32.39 | SpeedEvil | Eventually. |
| 20:33.03 | SpeedEvil | Tehy pay roaming charges to allow their users to use another operators GSM network when out of range. |
| 20:33.04 | KragenSitaker | that is, any GSM phone that is old |
| 20:33.17 | SpeedEvil | So it costs them money. |
| 20:33.20 | balrog-kun | roh: it connects to the "dummy_uhc" HUB (in Device Drivers -> USB support -> USB Gadget Support) |
| 20:33.24 | KragenSitaker | right |
| 20:33.37 | balrog-kun | roh: to connect to this hub it uses gadgetfs which is the userspace api |
| 20:33.54 | roh | balrog-kun ah i see. is there any documentation yet? |
| 20:34.08 | balrog-kun | roh: not yet |
| 20:34.28 | balrog-kun | roh: if you mean documentation for qemu - the kernel side is there since linux 2.5 i think |
| 20:34.49 | roh | hm. no dummy_uhc here (feisty) |
| 20:35.32 | roh | uuuh. they do not compile that one by default *sigh* |
| 20:36.10 | roh | seems i should tell ben collins we will need it in the future ;=) |
| 20:36.59 | balrog-kun | roh: i don't think anyone at all besides the original author used this module, until now |
| 20:37.30 | roh | *g* |
| 20:37.34 | balrog-kun | it's pretty untested, and if qemu messes something up and writes e.g. a bad packet size, it will kill the host kernel |
| 20:37.53 | balrog-kun | although being very careful it is functional |
| 20:39.35 | roh | balrog-kun so we should think of a way of building the module for the host kernel out of tree for now? |
| 20:41.51 | balrog-kun | roh: personally i don't think it's too big an effort for a user, going to /usr/src/linux launching menuconfig and rebuilding |
| 20:42.16 | balrog-kun | but maybe MokoMakefile could do something like that for the user, if rwhitby thinks it's convenient |
| 20:42.47 | roh | balrog-kun it is. most of the users use distro supplied kernels (even i am) with a lot of custom patches from the distro which are not that easy to replicate (restricted modules and stuff) |
| 20:43.07 | balrog-kun | roh: it's pretty much like the tun/tap networking in qemu - you need a module for that and most users have no problems building the module |
| 20:43.36 | roh | balrog-kun tun-tap is supplied with every distro for ages and was also build out-of-tree before |
| 20:43.53 | balrog-kun | roh: ah, i see |
| 20:44.06 | balrog-kun | as i use Gentoo, i would have no idea |
| 20:44.11 | roh | linuxtv does the same and overwrites the overlapping distro supplied modules on install |
| 20:44.25 | roh | gentoo is propably the last distro where users regularly build kernels on their own |
| 20:44.26 | roh | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:44.43 | balrog-kun | honsetly i hadn't heard of tun-tap before i used qemu |
| 20:45.02 | koen | that's why debian (and OE based distros) have packaged kernel |
| 20:45.21 | koen | an extra modules is just a <foo> install kernel-module-blah away |
| 20:46.06 | balrog-kun | and i assume dummy_hcd is not shipped normally? |
| 20:46.16 | roh | koen if its not really used and quite untested i think we will be better off with our own local copy and building out-of-tree if the module is not there yet |
| 20:46.40 | roh | balrog-kun i have never heard of it before and do linux since 2.0.3x ;) |
| 20:46.54 | balrog-kun | roh: that would have the advantage that we could ship a modified version of the driver |
| 20:47.04 | roh | as far as i can see neither ubuntu nor debian have it atm |
| 20:47.04 | koen | if the user has to do anything more than "look sheepish" or "click OK" it goes wrong in practice |
| 20:47.05 | balrog-kun | there's a lot of space for improvement in gadgetfs |
| 20:47.39 | roh | balrog-kun exactly. and improve/bugfix it till its ready for bcollins and others to select in distro kernels by default |
| 20:47.42 | koen | e.g. "reading error message" and "reading release notes" are unattainable goals |
| 20:47.49 | koen | (from years of experience) |
| 20:48.03 | SpeedEvil | IMO, that's a bit harsh. |
| 20:48.18 | SpeedEvil | Users will usually read error messages if they are under three words long. |
| 20:48.28 | roh | balrog-kun we can easyly check if its already there and a recent enough image before building it out of tree and warn the user |
| 20:48.39 | balrog-kun | koen: fortunately most users only want the emulator too see the UI and the people who want to log into it over ssh are in majority the hackers |
| 20:49.10 | balrog-kun | roh: i think that may be a good idea, although it would be much better in MokoMakefile |
| 20:49.12 | koen | balrog-kun: lucky bastard ;) |
| 20:49.20 | balrog-kun | :) |
| 20:49.45 | roh | balrog-kun i wouln't say that. without access to a console via ssh or serial its pretty useless to me. i used the real thing, even if its slower only because of that |
| 20:50.33 | balrog-kun | i used a terminal emulator and the on-screen keyboard until now if i wanted to, say, reveiew the dmesg |
| 20:50.39 | roh | balrog-kun yes. do a makefile which does the out of treebuilding and checking of the version as well as calling it and warning the user should go into mokomakefile |
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| 21:36.15 | thresh | what are the main maillists of openmoko? |
| 21:36.15 | thresh | currently i'm on -community, but hmm, almost nothing of development and stuff |
| 21:36.16 | *** part/#openmoko deepank (n=deepank@59.178.50.83) |
| 21:36.34 | CoreDump|home | http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/ |
| 21:36.36 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Disassembling_Neo1973]] |
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| 21:37.04 | thresh | CoreDump|home: riight. |
| 21:37.53 | thresh | everything's pretty dead it seems except devel ones |
| 21:38.17 | CoreDump|home | community has the most traffic AFAIK |
| 21:38.36 | CoreDump|home | I personally wonder where the _real_ devel list is ;) |
| 21:38.40 | thresh | :) |
| 21:39.02 | Elrond | CoreDump|home - probably hidden on irc. ;) |
| 21:39.10 | CoreDump|home | probably |
| 21:39.14 | CoreDump|home | !pester mickey|bbl |
| 21:39.15 | cdbot2 | mickey|bbl : Are we there yet? .. Are we there yet? .. Are we there yet? |
| 21:39.17 | CoreDump|home | =) |
| 21:42.32 | thresh | :) |
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| 23:49.31 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03andrew * r1914 10/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973/ (6 files in 2 dirs): |
| 23:49.31 | CIA-24 | openmoko: Implement S3C2410A USB Slave controller registered as a USB gadget. |
| 23:49.31 | CIA-24 | openmoko: Make usb-gadget endpoints synchronous independently of each other. |
| 23:49.31 | CIA-24 | openmoko: Don't use always the configuration 0 - a monitor interface will be needed later for choosing the desired slave configuration. |
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