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| 00:10.37 | beardousa | Time for me to go. See you all again after the first USB 2.0 model comes out. |
| 00:11.38 | balrog-kun | USB2.0 host or slave? |
| 00:11.57 | balrog-kun | i'm afraid neither will come out |
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| 01:06.43 | xkr47 | counter |
| 01:06.44 | aloril | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: a week, 3 days 22:53:20 (10.954 +-3.5 days) (1084;193) |
| 01:24.34 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] |
| 01:29.46 | seemant | so you know how there's a gps thingy in the neo1973? |
| 01:29.51 | seemant | waddayado with it? |
| 01:30.03 | seemant | is it just osmething you hook into your lappy and use gpsdrive on the lappy/ |
| 01:30.17 | seemant | or is there like software and maps gonna be on the phone? |
| 01:30.29 | bmidgley | a port of maemomapper would rock |
| 01:30.34 | bmidgley | gpsdrive is a tragedy |
| 01:30.35 | seemant | is there even enough space for maps on the phone? |
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| 01:30.41 | seemant | maemowhatnow? |
| 01:30.58 | bmidgley | maemomapper is a great gps app for nokia's linux tablet |
| 01:31.15 | bmidgley | it does use some special stuff in their api so it would take some work |
| 01:31.34 | seemant | ah I see |
| 01:31.48 | seemant | it is actually open source though? |
| 01:31.52 | bmidgley | it "steals" google map tiles btw |
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| 01:31.58 | seemant | bmidgley: ahh I see! |
| 01:32.16 | bmidgley | also works with us geological survey maps which is not stealing |
| 01:33.58 | bmidgley | seemant: it is gpl yes |
| 01:34.15 | seemant | interesting |
| 01:35.01 | bmidgley | the main challenge is it's written to use the "hildon" extensions to gtk |
| 01:35.37 | seemant | never even heard of those |
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| 01:56.38 | peepsalot | are there any issues with using enlightenment libs for openmoko? |
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| 03:24.34 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wishlist:Text_Input]] |
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| 04:12.18 | Hopscotch | good morning |
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| 05:23.34 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wishlist:Text_Input]] |
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| 07:21.49 | Magon | mickey|bbl: are yu here |
| 07:21.50 | Magon | ? |
| 07:22.53 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03thomas * r1906 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/artwork/icons/openmoko-standard/ (22x22/Makefile.am 36x36/Makefile.am): icons: add missing makefiles |
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| 07:30.43 | sannes | counter |
| 07:30.43 | aloril | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: a week, 3 days 16:29:20 (10.687 +-3.5 days) (1085;193) |
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| 07:32.18 | antenagora | counter |
| 07:32.19 | aloril | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: a week, 3 days 16:27:45 (10.686 +-3.5 days) (1086;193) |
| 07:33.02 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03thomas * r1907 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/artwork/icons/openmoko-standard/ (22x22/stock/Makefile.am 36x36/stock/Makefile.am): icons: add missing makefiles |
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| 08:22.15 | buz | omg the fpga resurfaces |
| 08:23.34 | mjr | damn, you beat me to it |
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| 08:24.11 | hrw | morning |
| 08:24.15 | SpeedEvil | Morning. |
| 08:28.28 | aesci7E | buz, so it has been said before ;) |
| 08:29.08 | buz | not just once |
| 08:29.30 | aesci7E | ok well. I'm following the list since a few weeks |
| 08:29.51 | buz | this particular use is quite sane to what was suggested before, though |
| 08:29.52 | aesci7E | sorry to bring back the hell ^^ |
| 08:30.05 | buz | some people actually wanted to implement the whole phone in an fpga |
| 08:30.28 | aesci7E | it remembers me a french company that did that for a pda |
| 08:31.05 | aesci7E | if I remember correctly, they used 5 of them and were doing on-the-fly re-programmation depending the usage |
| 08:31.37 | Rince | ;) |
| 08:31.41 | aesci7E | but it has never been so successful apparently :P |
| 08:31.51 | buz | battery will lsat not very long |
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| 08:32.17 | Rince | aesci7E: was it fast? |
| 08:32.32 | aesci7E | I never tried the real device ^^ |
| 08:34.23 | buz | afaik, some of the 3ware raid controllers were in fact shipping on FPGA |
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| 09:37.38 | Stephmw | howdy |
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| 09:44.40 | pavelm | Hi, everyone. |
| 09:45.06 | pavelm | I played a bit more with GPS decoding... it seems like incoming packet 3 contains bits gps is receiving. |
| 09:45.16 | pavelm | ...in "12 bits per received bit". |
| 09:46.14 | CM | Heh, 12 bits per bit.. |
| 09:47.35 | pavelm | CM: Like this: RECV L 7 SAT 8 FL 8 CMD 3 bc f ff d ff d 3f f fb e bb e 3d f 3a 0 fb 0 3f 1 7f 0 81 0 7f 1 |
| 09:47.36 | pavelm | 3 1 c4 1 83 1 |
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| 09:49.18 | CM | I hope someone can figure out how to translate it to coordinates |
| 09:49.29 | TRIsoft | morning |
| 09:50.41 | pavelm | CM: Translating it to bitstream from sattelites is the neccessary first step. |
| 09:51.04 | CM | Of course, and I'm happy to see the progress :) |
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| 09:51.39 | pavelm | Hello, LaF0rge. |
| 09:51.43 | LaF0rge | hi pavel |
| 09:53.02 | pavelm | Trying to decode hammerhead GPS... but is there any chance we get useful code out of globalLocate (or how are they called?) |
| 09:53.44 | LaF0rge | pavel: we only have a proprietary library, which we cannot yet ship to customers/users |
| 09:53.56 | LaF0rge | pavel: i guess within two weeks we should be able to ship that library. no useful code. |
| 09:54.19 | hrw | pavelm: do you have another gps unit? to compare result |
| 09:54.19 | hrw | s |
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| 09:54.42 | LaF0rge | hrw/pavel: the GL chip will not give you coordinates. it's a softcore gps |
| 09:54.45 | pavelm | hrw: Yes, I have bluetooth GPS here. |
| 09:54.55 | LaF0rge | hrw: the positioning information has to be calculated on the host. |
| 09:55.03 | pavelm | laf0rge: I know. I am trying to decode bitstreams it should be giving me. |
| 09:55.10 | LaF0rge | ok |
| 09:55.14 | LaF0rge | pavel: all the best |
| 09:55.26 | pavelm | laf0rge: (Sattelites broadcast something at 50bps, and those data should be useful for decoding position) |
| 09:55.35 | aloril | (script) openmoko-devel: Werner Almesberger <werner at openmoko.org> Finger text input idea |
| 09:55.36 | LaF0rge | pavel: to keep our relationship with GL clean, I unfortunately cannot work on a free software reimplementation, since I have sene the docs under nda |
| 09:55.50 | LaF0rge | seen |
| 09:56.13 | pavelm | laf0rge: So the "power up the gps" code in our kernels is "known good", because the binary library works with it? Good. |
| 09:57.12 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03laforge * r1908 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/ (set-hwswp.patch uboot-s3c2410_fb.patch): * s3c2410fb: set the INVVCLK bit, just like the kernel does for quite some time |
| 09:57.19 | LaF0rge | pavel: it should work. there was one remaining bug, I would have to check with the GPS engineer here at FIC |
| 09:57.27 | LaF0rge | not sure if that one bug was already fixed. |
| 09:57.40 | LaF0rge | will check |
| 09:57.51 | pavelm | Aha, ok, I guess I'll just wait before trying anything on openmoko. |
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| 09:58.03 | pavelm | I'd have to compile my own kernel first (etc), anyway, so.. |
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| 10:01.15 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03laforge * r1909 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-mokoversion.patch: bump version to moko8 to mark first Bv4 phase-0 release step (including i2c charger fix and INVVCLK fix |
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| 10:06.49 | XorA | hrw: which nokia battery is the one that files Neo? |
| 10:07.03 | pavelm | xora: The one from n6230 |
| 10:07.18 | hrw | XorA: bl-5c |
| 10:07.26 | hrw | 6230, 1600, 2300, 3200 phones |
| 10:07.45 | XorA | hrw: cool, my wife found a 1600 on the road yeaderday, a bit smashed, but it powers up |
| 10:08.30 | pavelm | xora: Try to return the sim card :_) |
| 10:08.56 | hrw | XorA: remember that it will not charge neo battery |
| 10:09.20 | *** join/#openmoko ecraven (i=nex@eutyche.swe.uni-linz.ac.at) |
| 10:09.21 | hrw | but neo will work with 1600 battery |
| 10:09.33 | XorA | pavelm: no sim or keypad |
| 10:09.51 | XorA | pavelm: otherwise that SIM would be in Neo1973 making lots of GPRS data |
| 10:10.46 | pavelm | xora: :-) |
| 10:10.50 | inz | where is this world going to... |
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| 10:13.40 | abraxa_ | XorA: Would you seriously take advantage of someone else's SIM? |
| 10:13.47 | sannes | Can I use a normal lipo charger to charge the neo battery? (how many cells is the battery?) |
| 10:13.51 | *** join/#openmoko thomasg__ (n=thomasg@p57AFE735.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 10:14.14 | XorA | abraxa_: of course |
| 10:14.59 | *** join/#openmoko greghunt (n=greg@5ac62f4e.bb.sky.com) |
| 10:15.29 | abraxa_ | Of course?! Now that makes me wonder. |
| 10:18.46 | XorA | abraxa_: wonder what? |
| 10:21.33 | abraxa_ | Why you would take advantage of someone who lost his/her cell by using the SIM on his/her expense |
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| 10:43.01 | Elrond | sannes - You can just buy a bl5c charger. |
| 10:46.16 | SpeedEvil | sannes: 1 |
| 10:46.59 | SpeedEvil | sannes: Just charge at 300mA or so max, up to a maximum of 4.1V, and hold at 4.1 for an hour. |
| 10:47.09 | SpeedEvil | +-0.05V |
| 10:50.37 | hrw | Elrond: as long as it will be 3rdparty not nokia |
| 10:51.07 | Elrond | hrw - Yeah. |
| 10:51.22 | SpeedEvil | If it's completely flat, then you can moderately safely connect a 3.3V power supply. |
| 10:51.30 | Elrond | Does charging in the neo now work better? |
| 10:52.11 | hrw | Elrond: for me it is hard to tell for bv4 as I have bv3 only |
| 10:53.01 | Elrond | For bv3 it was a problem, if the battery is completely empty, right? |
| 10:53.07 | SpeedEvil | yes. |
| 10:55.16 | Elrond | I hope that's better with v4. |
| 10:55.35 | Elrond | ... and it means, if one wants to chip bv3, one should load the battery full and then remove it. |
| 10:55.38 | SpeedEvil | Some of it can be fixed in software. |
| 10:56.09 | SpeedEvil | If you turn on the charger immediately in u-boot at 100mA, then immediately turn off and set a wakeup interrupt in 5 min. |
| 10:56.27 | SpeedEvil | set a wakeup interrupt then turn off ratehr. |
| 10:57.17 | *** join/#openmoko deepank (n=deepankg@59.178.33.162) |
| 10:59.14 | Elrond | Ahh, <http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Category:Neo1973_Hardware#Stand-by_time_extremely_low> only affects standby time, but not current in "off"-status, right? |
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| 11:02.03 | SpeedEvil | IIRC, yes. |
| 11:05.20 | Elrond | Okay, so switching the phone of should be safe for chipping it. |
| 11:05.36 | Elrond | s/ of / off / |
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| 11:13.00 | SpeedEvil | chipping? |
| 11:19.10 | *** part/#openmoko atla (n=atla@p3EE3D3F7.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 11:24.35 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List]] |
| 11:31.38 | *** join/#openmoko cedric (n=cedric@mieuh.bluebugs.org) |
| 11:34.39 | Elrond | shipping. ;) |
| 11:35.50 | *** join/#openmoko bkuhn (n=bkuhn@thurgood-marshall.sflc.info) |
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| 11:42.55 | webjames | shipping? |
| 11:43.07 | SpeedEvil | Oh. |
| 11:43.21 | SpeedEvil | Personally. |
| 11:43.34 | SpeedEvil | I'd recommend removing the battery. |
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| 11:47.59 | Elrond | Yeah, removing is of couse safest. |
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| 11:48.52 | SpeedEvil | The nokia 3330 has a nice feature. |
| 11:49.03 | SpeedEvil | You can put the battery in rotated 180 degrees. |
| 11:49.17 | SpeedEvil | And it will lock in, and be not-switchable-on by accident. |
| 11:59.28 | *** join/#openmoko TRIsoft (n=mac@p57a2f95b.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 12:02.15 | abraxa_ | What we may consider a nice feature could very well become more load for the support hotlines ;) |
| 12:02.50 | webjames | abraxa_: i do agree, my mum brought a phone and it wouldn't turn on, battery in the wrong way around |
| 12:02.58 | SpeedEvil | Probably true. |
| 12:03.27 | SpeedEvil | Personally, I like the option. |
| 12:03.31 | webjames | SpeedEvil: i do still think it's a good idea, although would have to be well documented! |
| 12:03.40 | abraxa_ | Same here |
| 12:03.54 | SpeedEvil | 'absolutely positively off, and will still be charged in a month, nomatter what the software does, or accidental button presses'. |
| 12:04.17 | webjames | quick question: whats the AUX button do? |
| 12:04.45 | SpeedEvil | Stuff. |
| 12:04.50 | SpeedEvil | Context dependant. |
| 12:05.13 | SpeedEvil | it is _not_ an emergency call button any more. |
| 12:05.20 | SpeedEvil | At one point long ago, it was going to be. |
| 12:05.59 | webjames | oh ok, nice.. my friend's just brought a k810i, another mate a w650i, me i'm holding out for the daddy Neo1973 |
| 12:06.24 | pavelm | abraxa: That "rotated battery" happened here, too :-) |
| 12:07.00 | abraxa_ | hehe |
| 12:07.22 | abraxa_ | webjames: Good decision :) |
| 12:07.50 | abraxa_ | I feel like such a fanboy |
| 12:07.52 | webjames | abraxa_: thanks.. i know it will be |
| 12:08.04 | *** join/#openmoko em_a (n=em@130.192.76.236) |
| 12:08.10 | abraxa_ | If we get Neo keychains I'll definitely use that one instead of the one I have now |
| 12:08.20 | abraxa_ | And I wanna get an OpenMoko shirt as well... |
| 12:08.52 | SpeedEvil | A working neo keychain with a touchscreen 0.5" display, talking via bluetooth would be _so_ cool. |
| 12:09.13 | abraxa_ | "working" neo keychain? |
| 12:09.40 | SpeedEvil | Just a small neo shaped one, with a bluetooth display and touchscreen, maybe mic too. |
| 12:11.18 | abraxa_ | My bad - I mixed up keychain and lanyard |
| 12:11.18 | *** join/#openmoko unmadindu (n=sayamind@gnu-india/admin/unmadindu) |
| 12:11.33 | abraxa_ | I meant "if we get an OpenMoko lanyard with the Neo"... |
| 12:15.33 | *** join/#openmoko hardwalker (n=jjs@125-229-201-188.dynamic.hinet.net) |
| 12:22.48 | webjames | maybe the keyring could use the a-gps to locate you phone, emitting a seriers of beeps gettting closer together the closer you came to the phone |
| 12:24.31 | tonyg | counter |
| 12:24.31 | aloril | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: a week, 3 days 11:35:32 (10.483 +-3.5 days) (1087;194) |
| 12:24.39 | *** join/#openmoko buz (n=buz@84-72-54-173.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 12:24.45 | webjames | counter? |
| 12:24.46 | aloril | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; P0: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review; a week, 3 days 11:35:18 (10.483 +-3.5 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-05-13); 4 months, a week, 4 days (134.983 +-15.0 days) for mass market (2007-09-15): see topic for more info (1088;194) |
| 12:25.13 | webjames | i want to preorder mine... |
| 12:30.29 | Elrond | abraxa_ - AFAIK there will be a lanyard. Not that I want one. I would rather opt for a screen protector thingy. |
| 12:31.18 | abraxa_ | Elrond: A screen protector of what kind? |
| 12:32.35 | Elrond | abraxa_ - some foil. |
| 12:33.29 | abraxa_ | Oh, those... a friend of mine attached one to his Treo display - it kind of "sticks" to the stylus so sliding across the screen doesn't work anymore |
| 12:33.52 | abraxa_ | I wonder if that's the same with all such screen protectors |
| 12:34.20 | Elrond | I don't know. I'd hope no. |
| 12:34.47 | aloril | hmm.. binary gps module within 2 weeks? -> shipping of P1 withing 2 weeks? |
| 12:35.03 | pavelm | abraxa: no, most protectors are actually ok. |
| 12:35.05 | *** join/#openmoko Zword (n=Zword@bos94-3-82-226-234-106.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 12:35.56 | abraxa_ | Two weeks does sound like a sound estimate |
| 12:36.03 | Elrond | aloril - They should. They don't want all people to send their P1 back, because the gps is noticed later to be borked. |
| 12:36.39 | aloril | Elrond: they could test it works and still send without binary module, but I guess that would be bad PR |
| 12:37.40 | aloril | scroll < 3h upwards for relevant quotes |
| 12:38.16 | aloril | well.. s:module:library: |
| 12:39.09 | abraxa_ | I wonder why they used a soft-gps when it was foreseeable that no open source driver would be supplied by GL |
| 12:39.42 | CM | I'm guessing price |
| 12:40.04 | abraxa_ | Probably... |
| 12:40.12 | CM | And maybe space too, I don't know how big the hw parts are |
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| 12:40.46 | *** join/#openmoko jaebird (n=jae@53-89.netblk-69-41-89.coolaccess.net) |
| 12:41.30 | webjames | am i right that to use the gps information will need to be sent to the network provider? |
| 12:41.59 | pavelm | webjames: no. |
| 12:42.13 | Elrond | webjames - Read the FAQ for the GPS in the wiki. |
| 12:42.25 | webjames | pavelm: cool, i did i was just checking i understood it |
| 12:42.36 | *** join/#openmoko prpplague (n=dave@mail.americanmicrosystems.com) |
| 12:42.59 | Elrond | pavelm - You decoded some part of the protocol? Did you put the info in the wiki already? |
| 12:45.26 | Elrond | aloril - Well, we still have no lawyer answer on this whole issue. |
| 12:48.33 | pavelm | Elrond: lawyer answer? |
| 12:48.56 | *** join/#openmoko madewokherd (n=urk@VRP5000.rhbd.psu.edu) |
| 12:49.40 | pavelm | Elrond: hammerhead protocol. Not much is done, but i suspect cmd 3 messages are gps data, and someone else deciphered how to tell it to tune to particular sattelite. |
| 12:50.00 | Elrond | pavelm - There are two issues: a) The old simple "reverse engeenering" issue (clean room, etc. pp) |
| 12:50.58 | Elrond | pavelm - b) GPS without some restrictions (not working at large speeds / altitudes) are considered munition in the US. |
| 12:51.23 | buz | i thought you had the right to bear arms there |
| 12:51.23 | buz | SCNR |
| 12:51.27 | Elrond | and a GPL driver has a self documenting switch for those trestrictions. |
| 12:51.48 | Elrond | buz - export/import is the issue, not havig one inside the US. |
| 12:52.00 | pavelm | elrond: a) we don't need clean room as we are not reading they disassembly but traces of communications and b) we simply make it limited. I do not think source == documentation |
| 12:52.06 | *** join/#openmoko rd_ (n=rd@toi.yeu.phu.nu) |
| 12:52.07 | buz | well the main issue is that you can travel from the us with one |
| 12:52.17 | SpeedEvil | buz: an unrestriced GPS is mentioned in the next paragraph of to the law on importing/exporting nuclear weapons test equipment. |
| 12:52.24 | pavelm | elrond: it is just a source... it is only ammunition if you compile it with switch removed and load it on the hw. Don't do it then. |
| 12:52.36 | SpeedEvil | pavelm: Are you however a lwayer with ITAR experience? |
| 12:52.54 | pavelm | speed: I live in free country :-) |
| 12:53.04 | SpeedEvil | The penalties are potentially unlimited fines, and long jail terms. (for FIC people). |
| 12:53.34 | buz | fic can continue to ship the closed source driver |
| 12:53.40 | SpeedEvil | I'm not saying it is an issue. Just that it is not obviously not an issue. |
| 12:53.42 | SpeedEvil | yeah. |
| 12:53.42 | aloril | when crypto was under same laws, even USA citizen wrote one (PGP) ;-) |
| 12:53.43 | pavelm | ...for anyone caught travelling with limitations-removed-from-gpsd... |
| 12:53.47 | Elrond | BTW: Doesn't the same problem exist basicly for tomtom? |
| 12:53.50 | buz | obviously they cant be held responsible for their users actions |
| 12:53.53 | SpeedEvil | Elrond: No. |
| 12:54.15 | SpeedEvil | Elrond: Essentially all GPSs ship with updatable firmware and binary blobs for the GPS code. |
| 12:54.19 | aloril | and that is with it enabled, not with "default off", so kind of worse |
| 12:54.23 | pavelm | ...plus it would probably be trivial to remove 1000kph limit from binary driver. |
| 12:54.41 | SpeedEvil | However, it's trivial for _all_ the flashable devices. |
| 12:54.48 | SpeedEvil | Which is the majority nowadays. |
| 12:55.05 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - I mean: The straces are from tomtom, so the "to be written gpl hammerhead gpsd" might work there too. |
| 12:55.08 | pavelm | if FIC people are scared about going to jail... they should just place sirfIII there. |
| 12:55.22 | SpeedEvil | A binary blob would be perfectly safe. |
| 12:55.34 | abraxa_ | Not to mention that the people who *want* to build such ammunition will do so regardless of those laws |
| 12:55.35 | SpeedEvil | And sirfIII is significantly poorer performing. |
| 12:55.41 | pavelm | source code is perfectly safe for FIC people, too. |
| 12:56.00 | pavelm | I mean -- they have nothing to do with it. |
| 12:56.14 | pavelm | ...and probably can't help us because NDAs, anyway. |
| 12:56.17 | SpeedEvil | If they ship it - not. |
| 12:56.23 | Elrond | abraxa_ - Right. Not to mention. That doesn't stop a judge from sending people to jail. |
| 12:56.37 | SpeedEvil | If it's a user upgrade, they can point to the 'evil hackers' doing it. |
| 12:56.52 | SpeedEvil | Much as any other GPS maker in the same position having users replace the firmware could. |
| 12:57.18 | abraxa_ | Elrond: Nothing stops a judge from doing ridiculous things in the US indeed :) |
| 12:57.23 | *** join/#openmoko Ryushin (i=proxy@windwalker.openinnovations.com) |
| 12:57.39 | pavelm | speed: even if they shipped binary gpsd (derived from GPLed code0 with 1000kph limitation... I do not see how they could get into jail for that. ammunition limit is for "whole devices". |
| 12:57.42 | SpeedEvil | And you don't even have to be in the US, or be a US citezen. |
| 12:57.43 | Elrond | abraxa_ - Well, in this case they have a law they can point at. ;) |
| 12:57.55 | *** join/#openmoko gabaug (n=gabe@207-229-164-50.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.cable.rcn.com) |
| 12:58.11 | SpeedEvil | Software + device is reasonably the "whole device". |
| 12:58.20 | pavelm | speed: US laws do not apply to _me_. I do not care about them. If FIC people are not in US, they are not bound to them, either. |
| 12:58.27 | SpeedEvil | pavelm: Wrong. |
| 12:58.41 | SpeedEvil | There are a number of countries with which the US has extradition treaties. |
| 12:58.47 | SpeedEvil | Google 'natwest three'. |
| 12:58.54 | webjames | what about if they sold it as hardware only? |
| 12:59.05 | XorA | SpeedEvil: and Mckinin |
| 12:59.12 | XorA | SpeedEvil: or however you spell his name |
| 12:59.12 | pavelm | speed: Yes, so if you ship software + device from US, you should make sure to have 1000kph limit there. |
| 13:00.03 | SpeedEvil | The problem as I see it is, device + software is clearly a 'GPS' within the meaning of the law. Does the fact that it's got a documented 'off' switch to the restrictions make it unrestriced in the eyes of the law. |
| 13:00.28 | SpeedEvil | Into or out of US. |
| 13:00.38 | pavelm | speed: Anyway, it is FIC who will have to consult lawyers. Not us. |
| 13:00.45 | SpeedEvil | Yeah. That's all I've been saying. |
| 13:01.31 | SpeedEvil | The hammerhead is fundamentally more functional than the sirfIII, which is really good. |
| 13:01.40 | SpeedEvil | Especially if we can get a GPS driver for it. |
| 13:01.44 | SpeedEvil | s/S/L/ |
| 13:01.49 | pavelm | hmm, someone should invent binary patch for disabling 1000kph limit from tomtom... and have some fun. |
| 13:02.00 | SpeedEvil | That's not tomtoms problem. |
| 13:02.10 | abraxa_ | Anyone around who knows the ways of the OpenMoko OE overlay? |
| 13:02.11 | SpeedEvil | They simply point to the hacker, and say it's their fault. |
| 13:02.33 | pavelm | Yes, so if someone points out how to remove if (speed >1000) from the GPLed code, point to the hacker and say... |
| 13:02.57 | pavelm | and hammerhead is piece of crap and will stay so for at least next year :-(. |
| 13:03.14 | SpeedEvil | The hardware is cool - if it came with docs. :/ |
| 13:03.19 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Are there chances for hackers (like us) to get problems, when we create the "off-switch" (when we write the GPL driver, we create the off-switch). |
| 13:03.29 | SpeedEvil | Elrond: No. |
| 13:03.42 | SpeedEvil | Elrond: the law explicitly says whole GPS units. |
| 13:03.47 | SpeedEvil | GPS software is not covered. |
| 13:04.16 | SpeedEvil | However, the problem isn't it getting confiscated at customs from an individual and tested. |
| 13:04.40 | SpeedEvil | It's apple/... pointing a tame prosecutor at the importer. |
| 13:04.49 | Elrond | Couldn't it be considered "helping to create munition"? |
| 13:04.50 | SpeedEvil | (of many units) |
| 13:04.57 | SpeedEvil | Elrond: I don't think so. |
| 13:05.15 | pavelm | speed: Yep, the same way winmodems are cool. They are "fundamentally more capable", same way hammerhead is, but they are also pain :-( |
| 13:05.16 | SpeedEvil | The offence is simply importing a GPS capable of reporting at high speeds. |
| 13:05.29 | SpeedEvil | It's not assembling one. |
| 13:05.34 | SpeedEvil | importing/exporting |
| 13:05.37 | webjames | why is reporting at high speeds an offence? |
| 13:05.50 | abraxa_ | webjames: Think guided missiles |
| 13:05.53 | SpeedEvil | Basically as they could be used as ICBM guidance. |
| 13:05.56 | pavelm | Anyway, I should go for some outside sport. |
| 13:05.57 | Elrond | webjames - could be used for rocket ;) |
| 13:06.08 | webjames | looking at some devices they report upto different speeds |
| 13:06.10 | SpeedEvil | The law was written back when making a GPS was much harder. |
| 13:06.33 | pavelm | webjames: If you import *anything* to US at >1000kph, I guess it is called terorism :-). Remember that Concordes are grounded. |
| 13:06.36 | SpeedEvil | So it was slightly less silly. |
| 13:06.54 | pavelm | webjames: ...and us probably will not like you firing missiles at them. |
| 13:06.55 | abraxa_ | pavel ;) |
| 13:07.10 | pavelm | webjames: ...er... importing missiles at high speed :-) |
| 13:07.13 | webjames | yes, i see now the problem |
| 13:07.46 | Elrond | "importing missiles at high speed" sounds fun. ;) |
| 13:07.49 | abraxa_ | Ugh... anyone knows what's up with openmoko-today? |
| 13:08.18 | pavelm | Elrond: don't say that aloud, they may charge you with terrorism ;-). |
| 13:08.37 | Elrond | pavelm - Yeah. |
| 13:08.40 | pavelm | Elrond: actually I thought that sending model aircraft to US with payload of sugar may be a lot of fun ;-). |
| 13:09.01 | baird | pavelm: Jef Raskin had the same idea... He's Dead now. :) |
| 13:09.02 | pavelm | ...(and to stay ontopic, we could use openmoko for navigation) |
| 13:09.19 | SpeedEvil | Also, the $1K cruise missile guy got into all sorts of tax problems. |
| 13:09.21 | webjames | my uncle was telling me (i don't believe him) that in New Zealand all th gps's are made inaccurate |
| 13:09.25 | Elrond | 200 years ago, it was inquisition. |
| 13:09.33 | SpeedEvil | webjames: Google selective availability. |
| 13:09.47 | SpeedEvil | webjames: GPS used to be made intentionally inaccurate. |
| 13:10.04 | CM | What about a ICBM that only goes 999km/h? :-) |
| 13:10.14 | webjames | SpeedEvil: but not any more |
| 13:10.16 | Elrond | 50 years ago, it was "communism" |
| 13:10.17 | pavelm | Okay, bye for now. |
| 13:10.30 | Elrond | Today it's ... fill in the right word. ;o) |
| 13:10.38 | SpeedEvil | pavelm :' wave |
| 13:10.46 | SpeedEvil | stupidism? |
| 13:10.46 | Elrond | pavelm - Bye :) |
| 13:11.26 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Yeah. ;) |
| 13:11.48 | abraxa_ | I wonder when the first GPS/Galileo combi modules will be on the market which make sure that there won't be any intentional misguidances |
| 13:12.40 | SpeedEvil | GPS/GLONASS are already available. |
| 13:12.41 | *** join/#openmoko atla (n=atla@p3EE3D3F7.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 13:12.41 | abraxa_ | GLONASS? |
| 13:12.41 | abraxa_ | Never heard of that before |
| 13:12.57 | SpeedEvil | I'm not sure if any of the chipsets support the more precise GLONASS version that was made available for civil use earlier this year. |
| 13:13.00 | SpeedEvil | The russian system. |
| 13:13.05 | Elrond | glonass is the russian system. |
| 13:13.09 | SpeedEvil | It was in disrepair till a couple of years ago. |
| 13:13.16 | SpeedEvil | With few satellites. |
| 13:13.20 | SpeedEvil | More are being launched. |
| 13:13.30 | Elrond | There is already one or two modules that do GPS and "galileo ready". |
| 13:13.30 | SpeedEvil | India is involved in funding AIUI. |
| 13:13.43 | abraxa_ | Interesting... is China going to orbit a navigation system, too? |
| 13:13.55 | SpeedEvil | Who knows. |
| 13:14.02 | Elrond | abraxa_ - I heard, that china plays in the galileo game. |
| 13:14.31 | abraxa_ | Ah... good... it's quite odd to have 3 navigation systems up there as it is |
| 13:14.51 | Elrond | Usually I think, it's good. |
| 13:15.02 | Elrond | More redundancy. |
| 13:15.09 | SpeedEvil | Ideally. |
| 13:15.22 | SpeedEvil | You'd want one system with multiple satellites. |
| 13:15.29 | abraxa_ | True, except that I doubt they are put up there for civil/research reasons |
| 13:15.34 | SpeedEvil | I mean multiple over what's required in clear horizon. |
| 13:16.07 | Elrond | abraxa_ - galileo was intended for civil use, no? |
| 13:16.13 | Sup3rkiddo | abraxa_, |
| 13:16.25 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - redundancy in "organisations" controlling the system. ;-) |
| 13:16.30 | SpeedEvil | That too. |
| 13:16.34 | abraxa_ | Do you really believe what the government tells you? ;) |
| 13:16.39 | abraxa_ | Sup3rkiddo: Sup Superkiddo |
| 13:16.47 | Sup3rkiddo | abraxa_, any luck mate.. |
| 13:17.52 | abraxa_ | With what? Adding a package? |
| 13:17.57 | Elrond | abraxa_ - well, the gps use was clear I think, from nearly the start. So they don't lie always. |
| 13:18.14 | Sup3rkiddo | abraxa_, yup.. |
| 13:18.27 | webjames | maybe we should launch OpenPositioning? |
| 13:18.58 | abraxa_ | Sup3rkiddo: Yeah, I got it to work and will put it on the wiki once I have that stupid openmoko-today issue sorted out here |
| 13:19.33 | Sup3rkiddo | abraxa_, sure would be great...thanks |
| 13:19.56 | abraxa_ | yupyup |
| 13:20.35 | abraxa_ | Elrond: I have long lost faith in governments, sorry :) |
| 13:20.42 | SpeedEvil | If you can assume IP connectivity of the devices that get positions, tehn teh satellites get much easier to make. |
| 13:21.25 | SpeedEvil | As you don't need quite so accurate clocks, and they just need to broadcast relative not absolute time. |
| 13:21.52 | SpeedEvil | Without even needing to send orbit info, which lowers power. |
| 13:22.39 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Hmm, I don't know, if I like that. |
| 13:24.34 | Elrond | abraxa_ - Well, I'm just sceptical and research things, if they really matter to me. Otherwise I consider the info as "might be wrong, use with care". |
| 13:24.35 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[Wishlist:Text_Input]] |
| 13:24.36 | SpeedEvil | Yeah - being independant of the net is a big plus. |
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| 13:31.36 | *** join/#openmoko gdiebel (n=gdiebel@adsl-69-217-146-185.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net) |
| 13:43.13 | guillaum1 | hi |
| 13:44.04 | arw | hello guillaum1 |
| 13:44.18 | *** join/#openmoko vaiursch (n=erwin@84-72-190-106.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 13:44.32 | guillaum1 | hi arw |
| 13:46.16 | guillaum1 | Does someone know if an audio server is planned, like pulseaudio or esound ? |
| 13:46.37 | hrw | pulseaudio rather |
| 13:48.41 | guillaum1 | hrw, the TCP module of pulseaudio could be avalaible ? |
| 13:49.24 | guillaum1 | or UDP ? |
| 13:51.19 | hrw | http://www.openembedded.org/filebrowser/org.openembedded.dev/packages/pulseaudio/ - read pulseaudio_0.9.5.bb |
| 13:53.02 | *** join/#openmoko jannu (n=jannu@hoas-fe29dd00-231.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 13:53.20 | guillaum1 | hrw, cool ! thanks for the link |
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| 14:09.06 | fledermaus | aloril: counter |
| 14:09.07 | aloril | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: a week, 3 days 09:50:57 (10.410 +-3.5 days) (1089;194) |
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| 14:16.08 | webjames | i think this whole gps thing is ridiculous, i'm going to ask a lawer what he thinks might be the verdict |
| 14:16.53 | Hopscotch | i think the eurasian fractions doesn't care and the us people should tidy up their jurisdictal system anyways :) |
| 14:19.31 | guaqua | qd33333* |
| 14:20.55 | guaqua | cleaning up the keyboard ;) |
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| 14:21.35 | roh | webjames ? |
| 14:22.00 | webjames | roh ? |
| 14:22.09 | roh | webjames i do not see a real problem there at the moment (besides licensing/technical stuff) |
| 14:23.21 | webjames | roh: it's the problem with the US ruling a gps reading above 1000knots and 60 000feet ruling a said gps device as a munition |
| 14:24.16 | roh | webjames so what? as long as we do not mount jet-engines on the moko it will not really happen |
| 14:24.47 | *** join/#openmoko arw (n=arw@213.132.44.209) |
| 14:24.55 | webjames | no, but it could, and thats the problem.. a bit annoying considering i live in the UK |
| 14:25.03 | Hopscotch | a device which doesn't disable itself when being faster or higher than that is munition |
| 14:25.31 | webjames | roh: what he said |
| 14:25.41 | roh | webjames sorry.. airstrip one ;) |
| 14:26.37 | roh | Hopscotch then we build in some artificial software limit. what do i care if a customer patches his software (could do that with every other gps module also) |
| 14:27.08 | Hopscotch | roh: doesn't need to - i had that limitation disabled in a gps device here myself |
| 14:27.25 | Hopscotch | you just send it back to the manufacturer and tell them, that you're not american |
| 14:27.47 | webjames | roh: that's exactly my point, if a user hacks the software it's not the manufactures fault. unless it was ruled that they didn't try hard enough to make it non-hackable |
| 14:28.12 | Hopscotch | is any american here anyways? |
| 14:28.29 | webjames | england here |
| 14:28.50 | Hopscotch | germany here |
| 14:28.54 | roh | webjames i do not know any law which has definitions of 'hard enough to hack' (which is silly anyways) |
| 14:29.11 | Hopscotch | i guess most ppl here are european anyways - so just keep on hacking :) |
| 14:30.13 | webjames | roh: i agree, it's just live DVD regions, i suppose such a thing could be implemented into a gps, but the you would get 'region free' devices which any american could import |
| 14:31.00 | dho | Hopscotch: yep |
| 14:31.27 | webjames | basically i think it is a stupid law, as if someone wanted to disable the limit they could with a simple hack |
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| 14:32.09 | dho | You guys miss the point. Obviously if a GPS travelling at 1000 knots at 60,000 feet hit you, it'd hurt a lot. That's a munition! |
| 14:32.45 | webjames | dho - nice, but then it's only accurate to 5meters or so. i'll take my chances - i say disable the limit! |
| 14:33.13 | zecke | mickey|bbl: ping |
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| 14:33.58 | webjames | i think FIC will seek legal advice, but come to a similar conclusion to what we have come to. |
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| 14:35.26 | dho | Or any combination of the two |
| 14:35.50 | dho | Rather, either of them separately :( My brain hasn't quite woken up yet. |
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| 14:36.34 | CoreDump|home | well, we wouldn't have any problem if the darn h/w manufacturers spent some money to integrate said limitations into the hardware itself |
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| 14:37.55 | webjames | CoreDump|home yes, but then it would be unfair on those who live outside the US |
| 14:38.20 | dho | why? |
| 14:38.41 | dho | What people outside the US have the capacity to operate the thing at 1200mph or 12 miles in the sky? |
| 14:38.51 | dho | What people inside the US have that capacity? |
| 14:38.54 | CoreDump|home | they could ship two versions. But IMO the limits is far beyond any civilian application |
| 14:39.00 | dho | Precisely |
| 14:39.06 | webjames | what if i want to track my journey whilst in an air plane? |
| 14:39.24 | dho | What airplane are you in that meets either of those two criteria? |
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| 14:39.45 | dho | commercial jetliners travel at <1000 knots and < 60k feet |
| 14:39.52 | webjames | the anti-gravity plane |
| 14:39.57 | CoreDump|home | =) |
| 14:43.14 | CoreDump|home | so, I take it nobody succeeded in hacking neos GPS based on the strace yet? |
| 14:43.30 | Hopscotch | nope |
| 14:43.44 | CoreDump|home | to bad |
| 14:43.52 | Hopscotch | we have first clues how the protocol works, but the gps didn't give any statement to that yet |
| 14:44.01 | CoreDump|home | "00" heh |
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| 14:46.25 | Hopscotch | so far we're not sure if the gps in the neo is powered up anyways |
| 14:48.25 | Hopscotch | if you have a tomtom one v2, you can test with that |
| 14:48.31 | Hopscotch | it uses the same gps |
| 14:48.55 | webjames | what will be the status of this in a couple of weeks time, surly with unresolved issues and potential problems it cannot be released, exported or imported |
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| 14:50.53 | Hopscotch | we're not depending no the gps-reversing effort |
| 14:51.04 | Hopscotch | global locate will provide a nonfree package for the gps |
| 14:51.08 | Hopscotch | gps will work anyways |
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| 14:55.23 | webjames | i see, there's no way global locate will be releasing it under GPL? |
| 14:55.54 | Hopscotch | nope, they're very proud of their great work... |
| 14:55.55 | roh | not that i can see |
| 14:56.20 | roh | atm we will have to wait and see what happens with the GL solution |
| 14:56.51 | roh | the licensing issues are not yet worked out |
| 14:57.05 | Hopscotch | i have yet to measure how much cpu power is needed for the gl app |
| 14:57.13 | Hopscotch | on the tomtom (which uses the same cpu) |
| 14:58.07 | webjames | what kind of software could be expected to utilise the gps? would it be the openstreetmap, or a non-free solution? |
| 14:58.38 | roh | webjames i think we are not fixed yet there. |
| 14:58.56 | guaqua | what people create |
| 14:59.01 | guaqua | and how the project continues |
| 14:59.13 | roh | but atm we strongly prefer open software of any kind. we will have to see if that allows using maps which need to be paid |
| 14:59.14 | Hopscotch | webjames: the nmea stream will be available |
| 14:59.30 | guaqua | if a commercial provider likes the platform, i see no reason they wouldn't port their apps to openmoko and linux |
| 15:00.58 | webjames | yeah, it do prefer opensource, however i do understand that mapping takes a huge amount of time and effort |
| 15:02.22 | Hopscotch | you saw the gaia project? |
| 15:04.10 | Elrond | roh - Do you know, wether FIC's lawyers are investigating the legal issues nehind a GPL driver for the GL chip? |
| 15:05.25 | Hopscotch | good question - but i don't think so |
| 15:05.44 | roh | Elrond there are discussions, but i cannot give you any informations on the current state |
| 15:05.51 | Hopscotch | since gl wasn't open to gpl anyways |
| 15:06.16 | Elrond | roh - They're aware of the ITAR regulations issue and trying to investigate this? |
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| 15:06.35 | roh | i think so |
| 15:06.47 | roh | thats not a major problem |
| 15:06.57 | Elrond | It is. |
| 15:07.36 | Elrond | Anyway, I need to run. Back in a few hours. |
| 15:08.23 | Hopscotch | roh: ah, i should look where ppl are speaking :) seems you know much more than me :) |
| 15:08.34 | webjames | where are the units being exported from? china? |
| 15:08.54 | roh | Hopscotch afaik yes |
| 15:09.03 | roh | eh webjames i meant |
| 15:09.15 | roh | Hopscotch i should, since i work for them ;) |
| 15:09.43 | Hopscotch | roh: :) /me has had some talks with harald but then the status was that gpl is not an option |
| 15:09.47 | webjames | so the issue with the munitions should only effect certain countries. |
| 15:09.49 | Hopscotch | glad to hear that that changed |
| 15:10.03 | roh | Hopscotch afaik that has not changed. |
| 15:10.52 | Hopscotch | roh: :( |
| 15:10.52 | roh | Hopscotch its not only a driver. its their whole ip in that blob, since the GL chip does not have its own cpu (mostly arm7/9) like the ublox or sirf always have) which makes it much cheaper |
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| 15:12.55 | Hopscotch | roh: yeah, is saw that. the gl is mostly an analog part with integrated serial port - no intelligence in there |
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| 15:12.56 | roh | but we are taking care of it. there will be a acceptable solution for all of us. and since the coreteam (harald in front) is totally OSS fanatic you do not need to worry |
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| 15:12.59 | webjames | roh: i'm glad about that |
| 15:13.03 | Hopscotch | roh: i know - but then the fsf would recommend the phone if it would be totally open |
| 15:13.05 | Hopscotch | roh: and rms blessing would be something :) |
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| 15:13.48 | roh | Hopscotch the fsf will never get a phone buiÃlt, then. gsm e.g. will never be open since it cannot get a certification then |
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| 15:14.32 | Hopscotch | roh: afair rms was mostly concerned about the software running on the ap |
| 15:14.59 | Hopscotch | roh: that periphery has it's own cores running something else locally seemed to be ok for him |
| 15:15.05 | roh | Hopscotch same here. but be shure that we will do what we can to avoid that |
| 15:15.33 | Hopscotch | and we will support that from the other end of options :) |
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| 15:22.49 | webjames | other than the GPS there's nothing else which is unresolved to this kind of extent is there? |
| 15:23.06 | guaqua | there are plenty of unresolved issues |
| 15:23.17 | guaqua | and moreso uncertain |
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| 15:23.55 | webjames | o :( |
| 15:24.12 | webjames | i ran an emulation with qemu, and i thought it was all looking really good |
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| 15:36.15 | aevin | Hadaka: are you naked on irc? :-P |
| 15:39.13 | LarstiQ | aevin: considering the nick, I'd say jime |
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| 15:44.38 | PBeck | hi |
| 15:46.17 | abraxa_ | hewwo |
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| 15:57.39 | abraxa_ | Anyone here who knows why openmoko-today is referenced in task-openmoko.bb but not present in OpenMoko's OE overlay? |
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| 16:01.52 | hrw | no idea |
| 16:03.21 | webjames | :| |
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| 16:05.11 | TRIsoft | gtg, cu |
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| 16:39.25 | abraxa_ | balrog-kun: You around? |
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| 17:00.23 | xamox | What store's are going to carry openmoko? |
| 17:00.23 | aloril | xamox: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
| 17:00.35 | SpeedEvil | Undetermined basically. |
| 17:01.18 | abraxa_ | I wouldn't count on any of the big carriers picking it up |
| 17:03.16 | xamox | It's GSM based correct? |
| 17:03.21 | SpeedEvil | yes |
| 17:03.38 | xamox | So in theory I'll be able to yank out my little card and toss it in there |
| 17:03.42 | xamox | and have service? |
| 17:03.43 | SpeedEvil | Yep. |
| 17:03.51 | abraxa_ | In practice, too ;) |
| 17:03.53 | SpeedEvil | Unless your carrier whitelists phones or something. |
| 17:03.58 | SpeedEvil | Most don't. |
| 17:04.14 | xamox | Alright |
| 17:04.46 | xamox | How much storage space is it suppose to have? or sd/cf card or something? |
| 17:05.15 | SpeedEvil | microsd |
| 17:05.24 | xamox | awesome |
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| 17:07.12 | abraxa_ | xamox: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Category:Neo1973_Hardware has all that and more ;) |
| 17:08.09 | xamox | Reminds me a lot of my sharp zaurus |
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| 17:39.26 | balrog-kun | abraxa_: yeah |
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| 17:44.15 | abraxa_ | balrog-kun: Did you already make it so usb-gadget support is optional? |
| 17:46.08 | balrog-kun | abraxa_: yep, ./configure tries to compile a short snippet that uses usb-gadget and if that fails it disabled CONFIG_GADGETFS |
| 17:47.08 | abraxa_ | Hmm |
| 17:47.30 | balrog-kun | disables* |
| 17:48.36 | abraxa_ | Any idea what that could be about then? http://paste2.org/p/2988 |
| 17:49.40 | balrog-kun | abraxa_: is this on a linux host? |
| 17:49.44 | abraxa_ | yup |
| 17:50.11 | balrog-kun | 2.4 maybe? |
| 17:50.16 | balrog-kun | it's missing linux/usb_ch9.h and other fundamental stuff |
| 17:50.41 | balrog-kun | linux/errno.h |
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| 17:55.41 | abraxa_ | I remember you mention that /usr/include/linux isn't always en par with the installed kernel |
| 17:56.00 | abraxa_ | So I copied /usr/src/linux/include/linux/* there |
| 17:56.06 | abraxa_ | Was this a bad move? |
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| 17:57.16 | balrog-kun | abraxa_: no, should fix all of these errors |
| 17:57.55 | balrog-kun | but with all these files missing i think most programs wouldn't build |
| 17:58.24 | abraxa_ | Well, I seem to have missed some files and just added them, resulting in this: http://paste2.org/p/2989 |
| 17:59.32 | abraxa_ | Does qemu require a certain kernel version by chance? I'm running on 2.6.20.3 |
| 18:00.16 | balrog-kun | i think it should run even on 2.4 |
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| 18:00.34 | balrog-kun | basically on Unix clones in general |
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| 18:01.51 | koen | it even runs on osx |
| 18:02.09 | abraxa_ | Hmm. |
| 18:02.13 | koen | balrog-kun: any ETA on getting the neo1973 stuff upstream? |
| 18:02.25 | balrog-kun | abraxa_: does a Hello, World! using <stdlib.h> compile on your system? |
| 18:03.01 | balrog-kun | koen: hmm, hard to say |
| 18:03.11 | balrog-kun | probably not longer than two months :P |
| 18:03.17 | koen | ah, cool |
| 18:03.18 | balrog-kun | koen: is there any reason to hurry? |
| 18:03.37 | koen | no, just curious |
| 18:03.48 | koen | seeing that you got the zaurus stuff in this week |
| 18:04.22 | balrog-kun | there is a conflict between this two implementations of s3c2410 |
| 18:04.41 | balrog-kun | and there are two more on-chip peripherals that iw ould like to add before upstreaming |
| 18:04.48 | balrog-kun | out of like 22 |
| 18:05.18 | koen | thanks for the heads up |
| 18:05.37 | balrog-kun | :) |
| 18:07.05 | abraxa_ | balrog-kun: Yeah it does - I wiped the build/qemu dir completely and restarted the build, got the same conflicts again |
| 18:07.32 | abraxa_ | Should I do something with the /usr/include/sys dir maybe? |
| 18:08.18 | quitte_ | usr/include/linu shouldn'T include the headers of a the kernel source at all |
| 18:08.38 | balrog-kun | right |
| 18:08.39 | abraxa_ | What else then? |
| 18:08.42 | quitte_ | userspace applications are supposed to build against linux-kernel-headers a seprate package |
| 18:08.53 | balrog-kun | abraxa_: i'm not sure, never had this exact problem |
| 18:09.33 | abraxa_ | balrog-kun: Alright, thanks - I'll fiddle around some more then :) |
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| 18:10.07 | balrog-kun | abraxa_: okay, i hope it works out |
| 18:10.34 | balrog-kun | it looks like two different header have defined the same identifiers |
| 18:10.39 | balrog-kun | headers |
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| 18:10.56 | abraxa_ | Yeah, though how that happend I have no idea |
| 18:12.26 | balrog-kun | your /usr/include/linux contents is identical with /usr/src/linux/include/linux contents/ |
| 18:12.38 | abraxa_ | Yup |
| 18:12.39 | balrog-kun | s/\/$/?/ |
| 18:13.11 | *** join/#openmoko woglinde (i=woglinde@e178096239.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 18:13.13 | woglinde | counter |
| 18:13.13 | aloril | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: a week, 3 days 05:46:51 (10.241 +-3.5 days) (1090;194) |
| 18:13.25 | abraxa_ | Fortunately it's just a chrooted sandbox so it's not critical for my system - it does however prevent me from building qemu so it needs fixing :) |
| 18:29.39 | *** join/#openmoko drWyrM (n=wyrm@201.2.68.83) |
| 18:30.15 | aloril2 | consider these 2 cases: |
| 18:30.17 | aloril2 | 1) source code for existing closed GSM module is leaked and also way to update firmware with modified one |
| 18:30.17 | aloril2 | would this really make phones based on this module illegal? |
| 18:30.17 | aloril2 | 2) s/leak/GPL/ |
| 18:30.17 | aloril2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:30.37 | webjames | i've just built the latest and just about to run qemu now if i can be any help? |
| 18:30.58 | aloril2 | compiled firmware with hardware is certified, not source code |
| 18:31.03 | DukeOfURL | leak it |
| 18:31.19 | DukeOfURL | :-) |
| 18:31.21 | *** part/#openmoko drWyrM (n=wyrm@201.2.68.83) |
| 18:31.40 | *** join/#openmoko k-s[WORK] (n=gustavo@200.184.118.132) |
| 18:32.46 | aloril2 | add some disclaimer like this: "You are allowed to change, like GPL says, but then *you* are responsible for getting recertication from FCC" |
| 18:33.05 | DukeOfURL | consider: any organization that has the resources to build and fire an ICBM also has the resources to build a guidance system for such rocket |
| 18:33.56 | mjr | aloril2, the comparison makes a good point, but try making it to the lawyers... |
| 18:34.35 | DukeOfURL | lawyers are the scum of the earth--praying on the people's misfortune |
| 18:34.46 | DukeOfURL | prey? |
| 18:34.49 | SpeedEvil | Except the ones that can spell. |
| 18:34.53 | aloril2 | example: adding crypto at lower level: needs certification |
| 18:34.56 | DukeOfURL | yuk |
| 18:35.14 | DukeOfURL | Speed: i got there first |
| 18:35.30 | DukeOfURL | :-) |
| 18:36.19 | DukeOfURL | what do you have with 12 lawyers buried up to their necks in sand? |
| 18:36.46 | DukeOfURL | not enough sand... |
| 18:38.00 | DukeOfURL | I think we should fly under the radar--develop our own GPS spftware and let them try to stop us |
| 18:38.08 | DukeOfURL | software |
| 18:40.10 | mjr | DukeOfURL, also not enough lawyers... |
| 18:40.27 | Zigurd | A really open GSM would require a softradio, since no existing GSM radio will opemn up the specs for their baseband |
| 18:40.56 | mjr | DukeOfURL, since the desire to build a free GPS driver is rather public as is preliminary protocol analysis, I don't think under the radar is much of an option :] |
| 18:40.59 | Paavo_ | Since we started with broken analogies: Guns can be used to commit crimes, still you can sell them since it's the user's responsibility. Configurable radios can be used to violate FCC rules... why can't this be user's responsibility? |
| 18:41.33 | koen | because the spectrum is deemed more important than a life of a human being apparently |
| 18:41.35 | Zigurd | You said GPS, not GSM. I though the conversation started with GSM? |
| 18:41.43 | Paavo_ | ...and the obvious reply is that someone misbehaving with a gun is easier to track than a zillion elbonian radios that are out of spec. |
| 18:41.50 | Zigurd | Or are you talking about location services? |
| 18:42.08 | Paavo_ | ...and collectively mess up the spectrum commons for everyone |
| 18:42.25 | DukeOfURL | GPS - the restrictions placed on the GPS receiver at extreme speed and altitude |
| 18:42.31 | Zigurd | Ahhh |
| 18:43.04 | Zigurd | Yeah, that will be a tough problem without truly open firmware |
| 18:43.26 | Zigurd | EIther that or the discovery of how that is configured in an existing device |
| 18:45.14 | *** join/#openmoko grgehunt (n=greg@5ac62f45.bb.sky.com) |
| 18:45.49 | DukeOfURL | let's go back to the original arguments concerning hacking HBO--these signals are arriving onto my property, and I can do whatever I want with such signals |
| 18:47.20 | DukeOfURL | HBO: Home Box Office, a US movie channel |
| 18:51.33 | Zigurd | Terrorists don't need that kind of GPS. Those restrictions are more aimed at North Korea, so they can't build accurate missiles. Though it is irritating for amateur rocketry. |
| 18:53.05 | DukeOfURL | Tell me about it. Can't even order H2O2 here in that states any longer |
| 18:55.41 | *** join/#openmoko pleemans (n=peter@d51A5E76A.access.telenet.be) |
| 18:57.18 | mjr | Zigurd, the GPS problem doesn't require open firmware. The GPS chip in the Neo is quite dumb, the position calculation and the US statutory limitations are in the userspace driver, which is presumably possible to reverse-engineer. |
| 18:57.39 | aloril2 | make installing FCC uncertified firmware enough cumbersome so that only developers do it (== test equipment then, like software radios are sold) |
| 18:57.52 | seemant | does anyone have a neo1973? |
| 18:58.05 | abraxa_ | seemant: Yes, about 40 people |
| 18:58.23 | seemant | abraxa_: so those 40 are working on apps and stuff? |
| 18:58.38 | abraxa_ | Yes, that's why they have them |
| 18:58.43 | seemant | or can anyone with "tree fitty" get one? |
| 18:58.50 | abraxa_ | Not yet |
| 18:59.13 | seemant | and that projects url is where all those apps are then? |
| 18:59.22 | Zigurd | What is the GPS strategy in the Neo? Is the GPS completely independent? Or is it like AGPS? |
| 18:59.27 | seemant | the "projects" link on openmoko.org I mean |
| 18:59.53 | webjames | it the interface slow just on qemu? |
| 18:59.55 | mjr | Zigurd, you're confused. It can work either assistedly or independently. |
| 19:00.04 | aloril2 | but I guess GPL GSM module will be based on software radio, not on some specific chip(s) |
| 19:00.10 | abraxa_ | seemant: wiki.openmoko.org is more like it - projects.openmoko.org hosts all things not done by the core team |
| 19:00.46 | seemant | ahh I see |
| 19:00.59 | roh | aloriÃl2 there will not be a gpl sm anytime soon as far as i can see it |
| 19:01.26 | seemant | mjr: so the gps thingy -- we'll be able to have maps on the microsd card and use the phone as a navigational device? |
| 19:01.35 | webjames | i've just compiled 'make setup' and then 'make qemu' everything looks like it's coming along great but the interface is quite slow, will this be the case just on qemu? |
| 19:01.42 | seemant | like a garmin or something |
| 19:01.47 | seemant | abraxa_: thanks! |
| 19:01.59 | abraxa_ | seemant: Welcome :) |
| 19:02.04 | mjr | seemant, yes, though free maps are... bad quality |
| 19:02.24 | seemant | mjr: how about a google map mashup type web2.0 buzzwordy thingy? |
| 19:02.51 | mjr | and proprietary ones aren't well available unless somebody starts selling their nav software for moko |
| 19:03.24 | mjr | google map can be interfaced to, its license (which may apply or not according to where you live) doesn't permit caching though |
| 19:03.52 | *** join/#openmoko SBKch (n=SBKch@81.224.unknown.vectranet.pl) |
| 19:04.15 | Zigurd | For just playing around, you can get free access to Autodesk, if you ask nicely. |
| 19:04.19 | mjr | (I'm pretty sure many will disregard that, and I would too, if my city didn't provide good local maps, bitmap only though) |
| 19:04.47 | Zigurd | But for most apps, Google is good enough |
| 19:06.03 | *** join/#openmoko Rac0r (n=Rac0r@p5081D323.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 19:07.18 | *** join/#openmoko miip_ (n=miip@p54A5760B.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 19:08.02 | aloril2 | roh: I think GPL software radio GSM will happen without asking 'permission', like PGP happened |
| 19:11.24 | roh | aloril2 since it will take very long till it 'works' and 'would get through certification in compiled form' these radios will cause so much hassle they will take up the work to triangulate you |
| 19:11.57 | Zigurd | There are GSM softradios, but they were multi-million dollar commercial developments, like Vanu. |
| 19:12.25 | Zigurd | It will be many years yet before you can talk on a GSM radio using a really open source device and software. |
| 19:13.00 | *** join/#openmoko ewanm89 (n=ewanm89@host81-151-191-215.range81-151.btcentralplus.com) |
| 19:13.06 | Zigurd | Might as well do VoIP on WiMAX instead, if you want a secure, private means of communication. |
| 19:15.35 | mjr | yea gsm isn't the end-all... |
| 19:16.29 | baird | "GnuSM" :) |
| 19:17.18 | koen | can the usrp do gsm? |
| 19:18.33 | baird | Unfortunately, it'll probably at least a decade before we see the likes of a Ettus Gnuradio on a 10mW chip... :/ |
| 19:19.48 | roh | koen not in realtime... means there is no single pc i know of which can do gsm completely in software |
| 19:21.00 | abraxa_ | balrog-kun: Is there any way I can manually disable usb-gadgets support? |
| 19:32.11 | balrog-kun | abraxa_: in config-host.h undefine CONFIG_GADGETFS |
| 19:32.45 | balrog-kun | config-host.h is created durig ./configure run |
| 19:32.52 | balrog-kun | during* |
| 19:35.22 | *** join/#openmoko Ken (n=Ken@gw.ptr-80-238-226-90.customer.ch.netstream.com) |
| 19:35.59 | abraxa_ | balrog-kun: Ahh, thanks... now it finally compiled :) |
| 19:36.47 | *** join/#openmoko vaiursch (n=erwin@84-72-190-106.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
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| 19:44.05 | Elrond | roh - Why do you think, that the ITAR issue is trivial? |
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| 19:47.49 | roh | Elrond because as far as i can see it we will not get any working open software for gl soon, so there is none. else i do not know what we will use in future products |
| 19:50.23 | Elrond | roh - Well, people are already working on decoding the protocol. And after getting the pseduo-ranges or something alike, the rest is only plain math. |
| 19:51.03 | Elrond | roh - And those working on it, are concerned about the possible issues. |
| 19:56.10 | roh | just add some software limit at the said parameters. then nobody can say you violate smth. that stupid. when flying 1000mph you usually have other problems |
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| 20:08.26 | *** part/#openmoko _kaiser_ (n=kaiser@74-131-118-200.dhcp.insightbb.com) |
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| 20:49.40 | webjames | i've just compiled 'make setup' and then 'make qemu' everything looks like it's coming along great but the interface is quite slow, will this be the case just on qemu? |
| 20:52.49 | abraxa_ | Yup |
| 20:53.04 | webjames | sweet |
| 20:53.11 | abraxa_ | You're basically emulating completely different hardware |
| 20:53.34 | webjames | oh right, awesome.. thats good |
| 20:53.40 | koen | abraxa_: ? |
| 20:53.49 | Elrond | arm is a heavy different instruction set from x85. |
| 20:53.49 | koen | abraxa_: it emulates the same hardware |
| 20:53.55 | Elrond | s/85/86 |
| 20:54.49 | balrog-kun | webjames: it depends on your computer's speed but afaik on my PC (2.4 GHz) the UI is faster in qemu than on Neo |
| 20:54.52 | webjames | but the emulation isn't accurate? |
| 20:55.30 | hrw | why it has to? |
| 20:56.11 | webjames | my cpu is 3.4ghz... does this mean i'm experiencing accurate UI speeds? |
| 20:56.49 | hrw | no. it means that intel engineers forgot that GHz does not mean speed |
| 20:57.42 | webjames | yeah, also it's HT which is crap with linux, it picks up two cores so it's really only using half i guess.. big love to AMD when i upgrade |
| 20:58.03 | abraxa_ | Why would HT be crap with linux? |
| 20:58.32 | webjames | because of the way it sees the chip, it splits it in two, but really it's one so can't act as two |
| 20:58.59 | hrw | webjames: you use 2.4 kernel - right? |
| 20:59.35 | webjames | hrw: 2.6.20-15-generic |
| 21:00.48 | webjames | i do like the stroke recogniser! |
| 21:01.13 | balrog-kun | webjames: read the [[OpenMoko_under_QEMU]] page about UI speed - no emulator will give you accurate speed |
| 21:01.58 | webjames | i did read that, but then i also heard that it was faster, so i was wondering what was what |
| 21:02.55 | balrog-kun | yeah, for most stuff it's faster |
| 21:02.56 | webjames | i mean it's not slow slow, but takes about 6seconds to load up the contacts |
| 21:03.02 | balrog-kun | on the phone it probably takes more than that, but i don't know |
| 21:03.20 | webjames | really? .. |
| 21:03.23 | balrog-kun | i'm quite sure it will be optimised before P2 |
| 21:03.38 | hrw | balrog-kun: you lack phone hardware? |
| 21:03.53 | webjames | yeah cos it's almost 10 seconds to load the calender |
| 21:03.59 | balrog-kun | hrw: yep, i only have the virtual one |
| 21:04.39 | balrog-kun | it's ok but i can't phone my friends from it :( |
| 21:04.58 | webjames | nice, :) |
| 21:05.03 | abraxa_ | hrw: I guess that's the reason why he started work on QEMU in the first place ;) |
| 21:05.30 | balrog-kun | not exactly, but that's a factor too :p |
| 21:06.54 | hrw | abraxa_: wrong guess ;D |
| 21:08.32 | webjames | i see phase 1+ has a faster CPU |
| 21:08.58 | hrw | GTA02 phone will get s3c24xx probably |
| 21:10.21 | webjames | also a discount for those who brought a phase 1 device, that's nice, although doesn't say how much? |
| 21:11.00 | *** join/#openmoko pedro (n=pedro@bl5-116-242.dsl.telepac.pt) |
| 21:11.18 | mjr | webjames, details promised when sales start |
| 21:11.57 | webjames | mjr: yes so i see, a nice way of rewarding devs though :) |
| 21:12.38 | balrog-kun | faster hardware is not a remedy for slow programs |
| 21:12.42 | balrog-kun | it's a workaround |
| 21:13.14 | mjr | well, for some things you just need the power |
| 21:13.19 | hrw | cu |
| 21:13.49 | balrog-kun | and i believe OpenMoko *is* slow in current version, but that's because there was no pressure on the speed until now, but can probably be fixed later |
| 21:13.52 | webjames | balrog-kun: i agree |
| 21:14.21 | mjr | (but that's stuff like media decoding and the like) |
| 21:14.21 | webjames | hrw- bye |
| 21:15.11 | webjames | mjr: yeah video i suppose might be heavy on resources.. be good to get that running smooth |
| 21:15.58 | mjr | wiki is promising though for 320x240 video playback on current hardware |
| 21:16.14 | abraxa_ | mjr: Which would be awesome. |
| 21:16.25 | webjames | mjr: current as in phase1? |
| 21:16.41 | pedro | does it have wifi ? |
| 21:16.42 | aloril | P1.5 will likely have WiFi (Atheros AR6K): http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-April/000012.html http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F (WiFi status for P1.5 will be known for sure when P1 becomes available and also what kind of discount for P1.5 is given for P1 buyers) |
| 21:16.50 | abraxa_ | webjames: phase0/phase1, yep |
| 21:16.51 | mjr | webjames, yes. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Video_Player |
| 21:17.50 | webjames | do you think i could stick a standard xvid on it and play it at phase1+? |
| 21:18.02 | mjr | wouldn't count on it |
| 21:18.47 | webjames | mjr: but with the res shrunk down to 320x240 @ 30fps? |
| 21:18.57 | mjr | you'd still have to do software rotation and scaling (unless the res is okay as such) in addition to decoding |
| 21:20.04 | *** join/#openmoko macli (n=macli@nmc.brc.ubc.ca) |
| 21:20.10 | webjames | yeah, i suppose video at 480x640 is out for the moment |
| 21:20.40 | mjr | a lot depends on also the bitrate etc |
| 21:20.40 | webjames | i was amazed to see the multitouch demos links from the wiki |
| 21:21.08 | webjames | mjr:very true i'm only thinking of long train journeys.. |
| 21:21.17 | mjr | but almost certainly decent neo-prepared video can be played on p1+ if it's almost there on even p1 now |
| 21:21.20 | SpeedEvil | 240*320 - the LCD can scale. |
| 21:21.35 | SpeedEvil | So there is no software scaling problem. |
| 21:21.45 | webjames | brilliant |
| 21:21.58 | mjr | SpeedEvil, he was talking "standard xvid", I was assuming "any ol' xvid I get my hands on", which would likely involve scaling... |
| 21:22.04 | SpeedEvil | Oh - right. |
| 21:22.04 | webjames | i used to have a k800i with that res, the videos were 3gp, but looked pretty good |
| 21:22.05 | *** join/#openmoko ewanm89 (n=ewanm89@host81-151-191-215.range81-151.btcentralplus.com) |
| 21:22.10 | SpeedEvil | In that case, probaably not. |
| 21:22.23 | SpeedEvil | I have doubts that 320*240 is really needed on a 2.8" display. |
| 21:22.57 | mjr | SpeedEvil, true, but can the LCD manage scaling to smaller resolutions? |
| 21:23.03 | SpeedEvil | Not AFAIK. |
| 21:23.14 | SpeedEvil | However, 160*120 could be software scaled up. |
| 21:23.14 | mjr | I do know it can do the 320x240 thing, which is good for video, but others... |
| 21:23.19 | webjames | the k800i only had 2 inches |
| 21:23.35 | mjr | SpeedEvil, hmm, true... |
| 21:24.02 | webjames | you just have to hold it closer to your face |
| 21:24.36 | *** join/#openmoko dietricha (n=dietrich@c-67-166-84-16.hsd1.or.comcast.net) |
| 21:25.21 | mjr | well, anyway, the wiki says p1 does 400kbps 320x240(prerotated) mpeg4 at 25fps without sound and 18fps with, which is certainly a good starting point. |
| 21:25.32 | SpeedEvil | yeah |
| 21:25.38 | mjr | maybe use a crappier codec like mpeg1 ... |
| 21:25.50 | webjames | yeah, certainly as p1+ will have faster cpu |
| 21:25.59 | webjames | looks very promising |
| 21:26.09 | mjr | or just give up and go 12fps :] |
| 21:26.33 | mjr | wouldn't be the end of the world, though 25 is to strive for |
| 21:26.35 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Category:Neo1973_Hardware]] |
| 21:26.43 | webjames | mjr, more than that would just be greedy! :p |
| 21:26.48 | SpeedEvil | Consider that on most screens 160*120 video is a little smaller than the neo screen. |
| 21:26.58 | SpeedEvil | Elrond ? |
| 21:27.00 | SpeedEvil | oops |
| 21:27.22 | webjames | yeah, they've packaged a lot of pixels! |
| 21:28.15 | mjr | yes, it's a good point that straight-up 2x software scaling from 160x120 would probably be sufficient for most uses |
| 21:28.28 | mjr | and light enough on the cpu |
| 21:28.32 | *** join/#openmoko dietricha_ (n=dietrich@c-67-166-84-16.hsd1.or.comcast.net) |
| 21:28.49 | webjames | yes, unless it was subtitled, in which case the res would be most useful |
| 21:29.07 | mjr | that would be one case where you want res, yes |
| 21:29.15 | mjr | also, you want to look at the screen very closely ;) |
| 21:29.38 | webjames | or you could get a bluetooth HUD? |
| 21:29.59 | SpeedEvil | Naah. All you need is a headmount. |
| 21:30.03 | *** join/#openmoko pavelm (n=pavel@gprs189-60.eurotel.cz) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 21:30.09 | SpeedEvil | Hold the neo at 15cm, with a lens over it. |
| 21:30.10 | *** join/#openmoko Sufflope (n=Sufflope@crj95-3-82-237-151-219.fbx.proxad.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 21:30.16 | *** join/#openmoko calvin (i=calvin@nat/novell/x-2363d0df6b094472) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 21:30.16 | mjr | :) |
| 21:30.22 | webjames | yeah nice |
| 21:30.23 | mjr | I'd buy that ;P |
| 21:30.27 | *** join/#openmoko MagicBobert (n=Bob@pcp028235pcs.wireless.calpoly.edu) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 21:30.47 | mjr | I'll probably have to fix something up to attach a bluetooth keypad to my wrist or something... |
| 21:31.05 | mjr | hold neo in left hand, operate keyboard on wrist with right... |
| 21:31.09 | pavelm | > I'll do the timing |
| 21:31.10 | pavelm | > ...phase 0 software |
| 21:31.10 | pavelm | > ...contacts launched ready within 15 seconds, window appeared in 10 sec. |
| 21:31.11 | pavelm | > ...dates ready wihin 11 seconds, window appeared in 7 or so. |
| 21:31.11 | pavelm | > ...second launch of contacts takes "only" 12 sec. |
| 21:31.11 | pavelm | > ...menu in contacts takes about 1 second to appear. |
| 21:31.11 | pavelm | * pavelm is afraid we'll end up with symbian-like "one big app" to keep latencies |
| 21:31.13 | pavelm | +down. |
| 21:31.14 | webjames | yeah, i did like the bluetooth credit card keyboard featured on the input page |
| 21:31.27 | *** join/#openmoko krau (n=ClaudioT@200.184.118.132) |
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| 21:32.16 | webjames | pavelm: thanks for that and that was using p0 hardware? |
| 21:33.01 | pavelm | webjames: yep. |
| 21:33.07 | SpeedEvil | pavelm: Is that pinning the CPU, or is it reading from flash. |
| 21:33.20 | webjames | pavelm: well things can only get better |
| 21:33.49 | pavelm | speed: I do not have easy way to measure that... but given that re-start of contacts is 12 sec (vs 15), I'd say cpu-bound. |
| 21:34.09 | SpeedEvil | Yuk. |
| 21:34.12 | SpeedEvil | Oh well. |
| 21:34.20 | SpeedEvil | Given that probably no time has been taken to optimise. |
| 21:34.59 | *** join/#openmoko Naked (i=naked@naked.iki.fi) |
| 21:35.05 | webjames | a nice benchmark for improvements to be made on. i'll take down the figures pavelm and see how they compare later |
| 21:35.15 | mjr | that optimization seems necessary though... |
| 21:35.34 | SpeedEvil | Yeah - under a second's needed. |
| 21:36.29 | webjames | yeah, after using a desktop computer users are not used to waiting |
| 21:37.39 | *** join/#openmoko calvin (i=calvin@nat/novell/x-5e428e76cd17f8c5) |
| 21:37.57 | webjames | abraxa_:i would think it would well the popular ones ie the dialer and contacts, dates... |
| 21:40.05 | abraxa_ | Yeah but a more complex mechanism would be needed - if you have 200 apps installed but mainly use the non-standard ones then there's no point caching those you're not using |
| 21:40.15 | SuN | Hm, it's not so much desktop computers as it is wired phones that people are used to, I guess. |
| 21:44.14 | webjames | SuN: true, if by that you mean, mobiles out on the market at the moment. i had an Nokia N80 a while back and i thought that was slow |
| 21:44.37 | mjr | my n-gage is slow |
| 21:44.40 | mjr | not that slow, though |
| 21:44.53 | SuN | That seems to be a Symbian/Series 60 quirk. |
| 21:44.55 | webjames | abraxa_: yeah, i guess tagging the programs you use most often, like a rating and cashing the top 5 |
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| 21:45.21 | webjames | SuN: i got rid of it after a while, the N95 is meant to be just as bad |
| 21:45.46 | webjames | mjr: seems to be a common theme with nokia, used to be really good/reliable not slow and crash often |
| 21:46.09 | LarstiQ | so some slowness I can deal with |
| 21:46.11 | webjames | mjr: i mean now slow and crash often |
| 21:46.26 | SuN | A friend of mine has an N73, same thing. |
| 21:46.38 | SuN | Has to wait about 10 seconds before he can take a pic with his flashy 3MP cam. |
| 21:46.55 | webjames | LarstiQ: yes some, to a point. and certainly during the dev stages of the neo |
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| 21:47.03 | SpeedEvil | If however, you can show someone your neo, and it goes instantly between apps... |
| 21:47.03 | SuN | The UI has fancy effects though, but I'll take my E6's simple but quick and effective file manager over it any time. |
| 21:47.14 | SuN | That would be a major plus. |
| 21:47.22 | LarstiQ | webjames: I wouldn't say no to speed, that's true :) |
| 21:47.25 | SuN | There's a lot that's wrong with mobile phone software nowadays. |
| 21:47.27 | webjames | SuN: exactly, no point really, by the time the camera loads up the persons got bored, or the sun has set |
| 21:47.48 | SuN | Yeah, or the celebrity, random cute chick or fancy car has disappeared. |
| 21:48.28 | webjames | SuN: sounds like someones talking for experience |
| 21:48.35 | SuN | :D |
| 21:48.58 | SuN | It's more or less what's going around in today's youths. |
| 21:49.16 | webjames | LarstiQ: i think speed is good, but not at the cost of efficiency |
| 21:49.35 | LarstiQ | webjames: efficiency of what? |
| 21:49.58 | SuN | webjames: agreed. But at the cost of fancy visual effects... I'd gladly trade that for speed. |
| 21:50.17 | webjames | LarstiQ: code, i think the N80 demonstrates bad coding, hence the bad speed |
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| 21:50.43 | webjames | efficient coding and fast hardware = a great phone! |
| 21:51.19 | LarstiQ | I don't see how speed comes at a cost of bad coding here, unless you mean on the maintainability side? |
| 21:51.22 | webjames | webjames sit's here with beryl flashy cube thing on his desktop |
| 21:51.42 | SuN | :) |
| 21:51.43 | pavelm | ...actually.. slow SMS are probably not matter of bad coding. Remember, that sms-es are stored on sim card -> slow. |
| 21:52.02 | SuN | SMS'es don't necessarily have to be stored there, I know mine aren't. |
| 21:52.23 | webjames | pavelm: no non modern phones, i think 10 are then they get stored on my phones memory |
| 21:52.26 | Stephmw | most modern handsets don't store them there at all |
| 21:52.39 | Stephmw | (the sim card that is) |
| 21:53.03 | webjames | nor contact for that matter |
| 21:53.06 | pavelm | web: yes, but that's why the siemens was slow. It had to retrieve the first ten from sim every time. |
| 21:53.06 | SuN | Same for contacts, since the sim card doesn't even allow for more than 10(maybe more, maybe less) characters and no separation between last and first names, let alone other data. |
| 21:53.28 | Stephmw | aye, the metadata the sim card can store is very limited |
| 21:53.40 | Stephmw | it's a huge hassle when changing phones ;) |
| 21:53.56 | webjames | pavelm: i think that's something to remember with the neo, all sms and contacts in memory not on sim |
| 21:54.11 | pavelm | web: That's _not_ right solution. |
| 21:54.17 | SpeedEvil | cached in memory |
| 21:54.18 | SuN | Yeah, a unified bluetooth sync or some other sort of migration system is something that would be useful. |
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| 21:54.43 | pavelm | sun: That's called syncml. |
| 21:54.48 | webjames | pavelm: sorry not memory in the flash |
| 21:54.54 | SuN | I mean from mobile to mobile. |
| 21:55.10 | pavelm | speed: Yes, cached in memory is good. But please keep copy at simcard so that they are not lost when I change phone. |
| 21:55.11 | webjames | sun: i use MultiSync |
| 21:55.17 | SpeedEvil | yeah. |
| 21:56.09 | webjames | thing is i almost have a profile for each person, birthday, email, office address, etc... |
| 21:56.17 | webjames | so the sim just isn't good enough |
| 21:56.25 | mjr | a copy on sim is good to keep, but also keep in mind that the copy on sim just won't be full fidelity if you want any sort of metadata there |
| 21:56.28 | mjr | yeah |
| 21:56.49 | SuN | I thought I'd migrate my contacts using the sim from my old Moto E680... turned out I had to edit every single one of them. |
| 21:57.04 | SuN | Hm, apparently my E6 should support SyncML |
| 21:58.08 | SuN | I wonder why I haven't heard of anyone using it. |
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| 22:00.30 | Stephmw | SuN: it's probably buggy :) |
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| 22:00.38 | Stephmw | SuN: lots of SyncML implementations are |
| 22:00.39 | SuN | Good chance :) |
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| 22:00.45 | webjames | sorry dropped out there for a moment |
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| 22:02.46 | webjames | the stylus looks pretty fully featured! |
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| 22:04.31 | r3inforce | hi |
| 22:04.42 | webjames | Hello r3inforce |
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| 22:19.28 | r3inforce | http://fun.drno.de/pics/ronald_geht_fremd.jpg |
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| 23:16.55 | Elrond | counter |
| 23:16.56 | aloril | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: a week, 3 days 00:43:09 (10.030 +-3.5 days) (1091;194) |
| 23:22.19 | pavelm | elrond... I wonder why you still try to ask the counter? |
| 23:22.57 | XorA|gone | pavelm: hope :-D |
| 23:23.29 | pavelm | I know hope is nice... but it seems pretty clear that phase 1 will be in september... |
| 23:23.32 | pavelm | ...2018... |
| 23:24.03 | XorA|gone | pavelm: its not that far away :-) |
| 23:24.16 | abraxa_ | We won't need phones by then anymore - we'll use in-brain communicators ;) |
| 23:24.37 | pavelm | (Ok, that was unnice. But are there any better estimates?) |
| 23:24.55 | XorA|gone | pavelm: yes but Im under NDA |
| 23:25.09 | pavelm | abraxa: No way I'd allow communicator near my brain. |
| 23:25.12 | abraxa_ | Factory runs are on the 10th and 20th - add a couple of days and you get an estimate |
| 23:25.40 | pavelm | I have birthday at may 18... phase1 openmoko would be nice gift ;-) |
| 23:26.47 | pavelm | Is there some GPS app in the works? I have bluetooth gps here... having moving map would be nice. |
| 23:27.18 | pavelm | I guess gpsdrive could be ported... |
| 23:30.27 | Elrond | pavelm - I asked it to distract me from something. It was completely useless, I know. |
| 23:32.21 | Elrond | pavelm - A friend and I play around with python-gtk stuff. ;o) |
| 23:35.03 | pavelm | elrond: Interesting :-). Python-gtk would mean usable gui scripting. |
| 23:35.14 | pavelm | ...anyway, I have to go to sleep, now. |
| 23:35.18 | pavelm | ...bye bye. |
| 23:36.55 | abraxa_ | I do have to admit, though, that using python-gtk won't help performance and if performance is already in dire need of optimization... ;x |
| 23:37.06 | Elrond | pavelm - Good night. :) |
| 23:37.38 | Elrond | pavelm - But python-gtk is slow for map drawing, I presume, we're currently hacking tricks out of python for simple drawing stuff. ;o) |
| 23:38.05 | Elrond | abraxa_ - Yep. It's more of a fun project. "hack away" ;o) |
| 23:39.07 | abraxa_ | A propos hack away... were you around when the Braunschweig Connection (TM) announced that it would be present at the CCCC later this year? |
| 23:39.38 | abraxa_ | It makes me want to go and in contrast to linuxtag it's gonna be a lot cheaper, too =) |
| 23:40.41 | Elrond | Where's the CCCC? |
| 23:41.00 | Elrond | And no, I weren't around, when they announced it. |
| 23:41.06 | abraxa_ | http://events.ccc.de/camp/2007/ |
| 23:41.42 | abraxa_ | http://events.ccc.de/camp/2007/GSM_Village - look, OpenMoko! =D |
| 23:44.19 | Elrond | Ahh. |
| 23:44.57 | Elrond | I consider linuxtag also because some women I wanted to meet since a year gives a talk. ;) |
| 23:45.09 | abraxa_ | *laughs* |
| 23:45.40 | abraxa_ | Now that's interesting since there sure aren't too many women able to give talks at such techy meetings |
| 23:46.04 | guaqua | able? |
| 23:46.45 | abraxa_ | able in the sense of "knowledgable enough" |
| 23:46.51 | Elrond | abraxa_ - Don't let them hear that. ;) |
| 23:46.54 | guaqua | you think of women as in some way less capable of doing such techy things and knowing about these things? |
| 23:47.25 | abraxa_ | No but the male-female ratio isn't anywhere near 50:50 |
| 23:47.37 | guaqua | Elrond: that's actually not true, i'm quite male |
| 23:47.52 | guaqua | abraxa_: your choice of words wasn't very good |
| 23:48.16 | guaqua | talking about ability when you are actually talking about ratios and quantities |
| 23:48.50 | Elrond | guaqua - :-) |
| 23:49.16 | abraxa_ | Well, if they're not familiar with such techy subjects then they're not able to talk about them - that's nothing gender-specific |
| 23:49.35 | guaqua | abraxa_: and in the same sentence you generalized the word ability with a gender |
| 23:49.42 | abraxa_ | And since there are less women familiar with linux internals than there are guys... |
| 23:49.42 | Elrond | abraxa_ - It's a matter of choosing words. |
| 23:50.07 | guaqua | it's a fine line - whether you sound like a chauvinist or not |
| 23:50.21 | abraxa_ | I guess I did word it badly then |
| 23:50.26 | pjz | methinks guaqua spends too much time trying to be politically correct |
| 23:50.33 | Kensan | guaqua: You should consider that not everyone is a native english speaker... |
| 23:50.37 | guaqua | abraxa_: i do know you didn't mean it that way |
| 23:50.57 | abraxa_ | Good, then I'm glad |
| 23:51.25 | guaqua | Kensan: does it make a difference? if someone finds it degrading it doesn't mean whether the other party actually meant it |
| 23:51.32 | abraxa_ | And Elrond successfully distracted me from asking who he wanted to see. Smart move ;) |
| 23:51.56 | pjz | guaqua: yeah it does. If people don't mean offense then none should be taken. |
| 23:52.43 | guaqua | pjz: how can you tell if no-one acknowledges it? |
| 23:52.56 | pjz | guaqua: how can you tell what? |
| 23:53.21 | guaqua | pjz: how can you tell they didn't mean bad by it? |
| 23:53.22 | Elrond | *lol* |
| 23:53.27 | Elrond | abraxa_ - I wont tell you. |
| 23:54.06 | abraxa_ | Elrond: I figured as much - not like it makes any difference since I won't be there :) |
| 23:54.22 | pjz | guaqua: you should presume they didn't mean bad and maybe privately afterward ask them if they meant it in the way you consider bad |
| 23:54.43 | roh | pavelm atm i'm pretty confident it does not take that long till p1. http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-April/000012.html has some recent dates which i am quite confident in (still) |
| 23:54.49 | abraxa_ | pjz: Unfortunately it's the other way around usually ;x |
| 23:55.09 | pjz | guaqua: I said what you *should* do, not what people usually *do* do |
| 23:55.15 | guaqua | pjz: imagine the situation where there's a woman hacker in a new irc channel / similar communication media |
| 23:55.28 | pjz | sure |
| 23:55.36 | guaqua | pjz: is she going to go ask privately about someone's hasty remark? |
| 23:55.46 | pjz | guaqua: if it's important to her, she might |
| 23:55.55 | pjz | guaqua: or... she might just not care |
| 23:56.45 | guaqua | well that most likely isn't the case |
| 23:57.02 | pjz | guaqua: well, look at the other side; I could choose to deem anything you say offensive, for any (or no) reason whatsoever |
| 23:57.02 | guaqua | she probably cares, but probably also looks for another group of people to collaborate with |
| 23:57.16 | pjz | guaqua: does that mean you're not going to talk? |
| 23:57.23 | guaqua | err? |
| 23:57.35 | guaqua | well i can deem you are an chauvinist ass, too |
| 23:57.47 | Elrond | guaqua - Or start's ignoring that person. :) |
| 23:57.51 | pjz | guaqua: sure you can! you can be wrong, too :) |
| 23:58.08 | guaqua | but i'm not doing that - instead i'm trying to convince you of the fact that being politically corret is important |
| 23:58.45 | pjz | being politically correct does more harm than good, because it discourages straight communication |
| 23:59.14 | guaqua | it doesn't |
| 23:59.46 | pjz | sure it does |
| 23:59.58 | guaqua | define the ways it does that |
