IRC log for #openmoko on 20070503

00:00.18Hopscotchyeah, it's good from here, too
00:01.38pavelmwell, it was 1kb/sec from university machine. Plus something is wrong with my home network, I get 3second ping to the backbone. I guess combination of that is deadly.
00:02.04Hopscotch3s ping is deadly alone...
00:02.34pavelmOk, I'll reboot that phone.
00:04.09pavelmHuh, reboot did _not_ help.
00:04.27pavelmActually 3sec is lightly-loaded GPRS connection, or loaded EDGE
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00:05.06pavelm...aha, and problem is not with my home connection, but with university
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00:10.47pavelmI've uploaded some scripts (hh.c and hhdecode) to http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/outgoing. Some interesting packet structure seems to be there:
00:11.24pavelm..I can't update the wiki (network problems somewhere), so I just put the notice in my blog.
00:11.31pavelm...I hope someone notices :-). Good night.
00:12.08Hopscotchi'm reading :)
00:12.09Hopscotchgood n8
00:12.45pavelm(hh.c is a bitch, you need to compile it twice, and it is really mess, but it should be a starting point. And those "len20" packets really look interesting.
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00:47.19pjzanyone know gtk?
00:49.54MacNorthgimp tool kit
00:49.58MacNorthI WIN!!
00:51.53MacNortha sound decision
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01:18.33aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Minimo]] [[Getting_OpenMoko_working_on_host_with_Xephyr]]
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02:19.24alorilsilly question: are you sure GPS module is on before trying to communicate with it?
02:19.54Hopscotchthat might be a problem
02:19.56alorilumm.. I guess its off by default and you need to turn it on, just checking ;-)
02:20.37alorilharald (or somebody else) pointed to right kernel source in some mailing list IIRC
02:21.38alorilsorry, it was werner: "arch/arm/common/gta01_pm_gps.c should take care of powering it up."
02:21.47Hopscotchright now it's 4:20am here and my mailserver has burned down :|
02:22.08alorilouch
02:22.16Hopscotchand the man next to me is working on his diploma thesis
02:22.27Hopscotchwhich is due in four and a half hours
02:23.14Hopscotchthi is meltdown day
02:34.33Hopscotchmailer works again
02:34.52Hopscotchcyrus is both heaven and hell
02:44.18CIA-24openmoko: 03andrew * r1898 10/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973/ (usb-linux-gadget.c vl.c vl.h): Monitor commands to handle the USB gadget functionality, various gadgetfs usage fixes.
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03:18.33aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]]
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05:19.33The_PHP_JediAnyone around?
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05:39.27cableroyHi, where will they be selling this phone?
05:39.27alorilcableroy: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
05:39.55The_PHP_Jediok
05:39.57The_PHP_Jedinice bot :P
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06:39.48zeckeboah I hate stgit
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07:13.48TRIsoftmorning
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07:29.41Sup3rkiddoanyone know how can i play around wiht
07:29.51Sup3rkiddothe shell in the qemu image
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07:53.23pavelmHeya, everyone
07:53.34guillaum1hi
07:53.35pavelm(I still can't access openmoko wiki from my home machine :-()
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07:55.03pavelm...strange... actually I can't access it from specific browser. Will try restarting it.
07:56.21pavelm...that helped, good.
07:57.36Stephmwmornin'
07:58.19TRIsoftmoin
07:59.26pavelmGood morning!
08:01.53pavelmOuch, gps uses 30bit words internally :-(
08:02.43yaccpavelm: Why ouch?
08:02.54Hopscotchmorning
08:03.16Hopscotchpavelm: where is your blog? or does it only exist in some non-english language?
08:04.27pavelmyacc: It is going to be hell to decode.
08:04.55pavelmhopscotch: It is syndicated from http://planet.kernel.org/
08:05.21Hopscotchah, righto
08:09.57pavelm(plus I have my non-english blog, but that's for horseback riding)
08:10.22Hopscotchah, i guess that's the one i saw last night
08:10.28Hopscotchbut i didn't get a word :)
08:11.26pavelmhopscotch: Yes, I went to bad without pressing the "submit" button. Sorry about that.
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08:13.46Hopscotch:)
08:13.51Hopscotchno problem
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08:25.23SpeedEvil30 bit? Wacky.
08:26.07pavelm30bits, 24 data, 6 parity. (http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/gps/gif/databits.gif). I'd like to know what parity scheme it uses, but those pdfs are long :-(
08:26.36SpeedEvilOh - right.
08:26.43SpeedEvilYou mean the underlying data.
08:26.59SpeedEvilI don't think we need to worry about that for a bit.
08:28.00SpeedEvilThough actually.
08:28.14pavelmspeed: I'd like to locate them in the streams. In particular, each subpacket starts with telemetry word -- and that one is constant.
08:28.15SpeedEvilWe don't really know how it outputs bits.
08:28.27SpeedEvilyeah - I was thinking of the telemetry/HOW
08:28.33SpeedEviland the time.
08:28.49SpeedEvilTime you can almost exactly get from the NMEA
08:28.58SpeedEvilWith a little processing.
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08:30.56SpeedEvilThere is a GPL package that does all of this already - can convert from the raw bitstream to a position.
08:31.08SpeedEvilI don't remember the name.
08:31.25pavelmspeed: I have link somewhere. opensourcegps or something.
08:31.30SpeedEvilMaybe.
08:31.39pavelmspeed: aha... yep, I should look there for the parity computation.
08:34.57SpeedEvilHas anyone gotten the neo's GPS to work - I've been asleep :)
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08:36.14pavelmNot yet, sorry.
08:36.24SpeedEvilJust wondering.
08:36.51SpeedEvilAnnoyingly, for the next couple of days, I'm working on my car, trying to get it mobile.
08:37.03SpeedEvilWhich involves fitting a DIY ECU, from scratch.
08:37.23SpeedEvil(Not running linux)
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08:39.04pavelm?ECU?
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08:39.30pavelmspeed: You should get simpler car, something without electronics :-)
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08:43.38SpeedEvilWell - perhaps.
08:43.49SpeedEvilI'd also like one with reasonable fuel economy.
08:44.10LarstiQcars without electronics are hard to get nowadays
08:44.20SpeedEvilAnd one with an ECU I have circuit diagrams for, and have actually soldered together, and have source code for, and has linux tuning tools ++
08:44.21RakshasaWe've got two rice-cups of the same make and model, the other one is '89 without any computers onboard, and a '91 with fuel injection and ecu etc. Quess which one works and which one doesn't. XD
08:45.42SpeedEvilThis is the pinnacle of French automotive engineering.
08:45.51SpeedEvilWell - not really.
08:46.10pavelmlarstiq: well... actually they are very easy to get, but you'd not want to use one in a city.
08:46.34SpeedEvilECU isn't basically complex. It's just annoying to setup, especially if you've got no running engine to pull timings off.
08:47.20SpeedEvilHowever, I plan to be selling the ECUs assembled, with after-sales support.
08:48.15SpeedEvilWith an optional bluetooth module to let phones act as keys.
08:48.43SpeedEvilDo not put hand over air intake.
08:48.49SpeedEvilPeople have had hands sucked into them.
08:49.07SpeedEvilcut off air, fuel, or stall it.
08:49.26SpeedEvilEspecially fun if you're running in an atmosphere that provides its own fuel.
08:49.30pavelmsolution was to find highest gear by experimentation, then apply brakes and release clutch quickly.
08:49.34SpeedEvil(dust, ...)
08:49.51pavelmspeed: that's possible? I mean, running on dust?
08:49.55SpeedEvilYes.
08:50.04SpeedEvilStuff like flour.
08:50.08SpeedEvilOr coal dust.
08:50.17SpeedEvilA running diesel is _really_ insensitive to fuel.
08:51.30SpeedEvilVapours too, that's the more common case, as the filter will usually catch flammable particulates.
08:53.34pavelmspeed: Fortunately I was operating that tractor in the fields...
08:55.36SpeedEvilI wonder how dumb the GPS is. It's not talking often enough for us to need to read each bit from each satellite.
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08:56.21pavelmspeed: I'd hope it to decode 30bit words and send them to us... that would be apppx. twice per second
08:57.19zeckemickey|bbl: http://linuxdevices.com/files/article078/fst-fancypants-celf2007.pdf seen that?
08:57.22SpeedEvil50Hz raw datarate or so, or 400 bits per 8 satellites per second.
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08:58.42pavelmspeed: would you expect it to send one bit per bit received, or something more fancy, like <0x80 is 0, around 0x80 it is unsure, >0x80 is one?
08:58.56SpeedEvilOk.
08:59.06SpeedEvil1189 bytes are recieved from the GPS over time.
08:59.36SpeedEvilbetween 1177429218 1177429314
09:00.26SpeedEvilOr 12 bytes/sec
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09:01.09SpeedEvilThis is around a quarter of the data that they will be sending.
09:01.14pavelmhmm, that's less than 400bits per 8satellites estimate.
09:01.25SpeedEvilThe lock time will cut out a fair bit of that.
09:01.52SpeedEvilI would have expected it to be sending something like a 2-3 bit value per bit
09:02.11SpeedEvilValue and certainty.
09:02.41pavelmspeed: that's bad. That will be hard to decipher :-(
09:03.04SpeedEvilTrue.
09:03.45SpeedEvilBut otherwise telling when the signal has faded in the middle of a packet is nasty.
09:04.49SpeedEvilErr.
09:04.50SpeedEvilOops.
09:05.01SpeedEvil11886 bytes are recieved from the GPS.
09:05.20SpeedEvilSo, around 2 times the data that's recieved from the GPS.
09:05.24SpeedEvilThat's more promising.
09:06.05SpeedEvilMaybe 2.5 times, giving some time for locking.
09:06.16SpeedEvilIt may not actually be reading all it can.
09:06.39SpeedEvilJust asking for some satellites signal phases at later points when it's got a lock.
09:07.20SpeedEvilAs it doesn't need any data they are sending.
09:07.41pavelmhmm, incoming packet #0 seems to have timestamp at the end.
09:07.51SpeedEvilGPS wrapped in foil. would be an intersting datapoint.
09:10.14alorilpavelm: dump question: are you sure you have GPS on? (to quote Werner from mailing list: "arch/arm/common/gta01_pm_gps.c should take care of powering it up.")
09:10.15SpeedEvilWrapped almost completely in foil, with a dish pointed at one satellite would be another nice - but harder to do one. Especially as a cold start, where it'll be downloading the almanac.
09:10.25SpeedEvilaloril: these are dumps./
09:10.28SpeedEvilFrom the tomtom.
09:10.33SpeedEvilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hammerhead_protocol
09:10.41alorils:dump:dumb: ;-)
09:11.28SpeedEvilThere is a fair bit to be gotten out of the existing dump from the tomtom though.
09:11.33SpeedEvilHas the same chip.
09:11.48alorilSpeedEvil: agree
09:11.49SpeedEvilAnd we have NMEA outputs that correspond with the inputs.
09:11.55SpeedEvilWhich we wouldn't with the neo.
09:12.05SpeedEvil(without anohter GPS)
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09:14.45zeckekoen: do you have an php/matlab example yet?
09:18.34aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Hammerhead_protocol]]
09:21.08pavelmkoen: Initing hammerhead should be about 10 lines of code, right?
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09:23.42balrog-kunhad anyone succeeded to communicate with the Neo's hammerhead?
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09:25.20Smakkowarnerhi!
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09:26.17Smakkowarner@ find keroro
09:26.21Smakkowarner@find keroro
09:26.34Smakkowarner-_-
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09:28.30pavelmlooked at the fancypants slides.. long and boring... and no real info.
09:28.37pavelmis it GPL at least?
09:29.45koenpavelm: no, but they are thinking about making it BSD
09:31.37zeckekoen: I wonder how the Han Solo quote matches with "working with the community"
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09:32.24koenzecke: they send their patches upstream, but don't care about attribution
09:32.51zeckeawesome
09:33.56koenthey are not as evil as they seem :)
09:34.31pavelmkoen: of course, one more piece of free code is nice.. but I hoped I could run same/similar code on openmoko and PC.
09:34.56pavelmkoen: plus... I'd wait for the code to be actually released.
09:35.01Stephmwpwd
09:35.29koenzecke: did you see the efl python bindings k-s did?
09:35.56zeckeno
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09:44.02woglindecounter
09:44.05alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: a week, 4 days 14:16:00 (11.594 +-3.5 days) (1077;192)
09:44.15SpeedEvilLies, damn lies, and counters...
09:44.25woglinde*g*
09:44.30SpeedEvilTo misquote Gentle Ben.
09:45.44pavelmhmm, phase1 was supposed to be few weeks ago, right? Are there any news? Testing software?
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09:45.54SpeedEvilBasically.
09:46.01SpeedEvilThey had problems with the candidate PCB.
09:46.06SpeedEvilThey rerolled I think.
09:46.14SpeedEvilThen they had problems getting screens.
09:46.19SpeedEvilWhich still isn't resolved.
09:47.10pavelmIs software ready? phase0 with right software would be almost usable machine.
09:47.17pavelm...with _big_ batteries :-).
09:47.44SpeedEvilNot really sure.
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09:56.51CIA-24openmoko: 03andrew * r1899 10/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973/hw/neo1973.c: Pass correct RAM size in kernel parameters (currently unused) - spotted by BobOfDoom.
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09:57.23jeddy3doh, nätet gick ner
09:57.32jeddy3oops wrong channel
09:57.41tonyginget problem :-)
09:57.58jeddy3:)
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10:04.25inzdet är ju ett problem, jag vill inte läsa svenska
10:04.30inz;)
10:04.34CMInte jag heller.. :P
10:05.08tonygit's a free internet ;-)
10:06.24inzYeah, and /ignore works >:D
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10:08.46RakshasaPuhukaa ny $#%@¥ Jotain ymmärrettävää kieltä!
10:09.03inzwell said
10:09.04pavelmwtf?
10:09.34theholyducki think its finish or however you spell that
10:09.46theholyduckthe language nobody understands
10:10.08tonygoddly, the ä came out OK in the finnish, but not in the swedish...
10:10.30inztonyg, utf-8 / latin(1|9)
10:10.33tonygyeah
10:10.41tonygirc classic vs. modern irc presumably
10:10.41theholyduckutf-8 > all
10:10.55theholyduckseriously
10:10.57theholyduck:P
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10:12.00pavelmI expected this to be english-only channel.
10:12.00inzI don't see the difference (irssi recode <3)
10:12.48inz7join #openmoko-fi
10:12.49inz"oops"
10:13.03Rakshasa"oops" indeed ^^
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10:34.47CIA-24openmoko: 03thomas * r1900 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/artwork/icons/ (16 files in 15 dirs): icons: update makefiles
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10:43.59pH5is it correct that the gps' power_core_1v5 is still 0 after cat power_up > power_sequence on gta01bv3?
10:44.46pH5I tried to make a C program to cat the first two strings from the tomtom log into ttySAC1: http://en.pastebin.ca/468771
10:44.55pH5but all it returns is a single 0x00
10:46.05pH5(and when it runs the first time after power_up, after that the read just blocks)
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10:49.26SpeedEvilpH5: Do you own a multimeter?
10:49.44koenpH5: do you have an EABI binary for that?
10:50.16SpeedEvil(to put a little bit of foil and plastic into the battery + terminal, to measure the current.
10:50.30SpeedEvilTo see if the current changes when the GPS is turned on.,
10:50.31balrog-kunpH5: you mean you could read a 0x00 from ttySAC1 after that?
10:50.48balrog-kunthat's good news i think
10:51.03koenpH5: http://rafb.net/p/HF2HvF23.html
10:52.42pH5koen: ok, same here. http://linuxtogo.org/~ph5/tmp/hhtest
10:53.02pH5SpeedEvil: I think I don't
10:53.16pH5unfortunately (I did, but I haven't seen it for a long time)
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10:54.59koenpH5: same results here
10:55.09koennothing, and on power-down + powerup a singe 0x00
10:55.49yogesh_how do we measure power performance
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11:06.08koenSpeedEvil: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-devel/2007-May/000906.html
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11:15.30SpeedEvilTrue.
11:15.38SpeedEvilIt would be nice to know that the GPS is in fact on.
11:16.39mjrit would be nice to know that the GPS hardware is functionally attached, but I suppose the FIC guys have info to check that ;]
11:16.54SpeedEvilyogesh_: I was meaning the trivial method. You take some thin double sided tape. Attach foil on each side. Slip this into between the + battery contact and the spring that presses against it.
11:17.12SpeedEvilConnect multimeter set on current to each sides of the foil.
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11:20.34aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Hammerhead_protocol]]
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11:34.06Stephmwdoes GPS hardware really use that much current?
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11:39.50SpeedEvilInteresting thing on 21CN (phone network upgrade) on radio 4 (UK)
11:39.54SpeedEvilStephmw: no.
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11:39.59SpeedEvilIt'll be measurable though.
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11:41.18SpeedEvilI'd be very surprised if it doesn't take say 5% of the 'normal' power.
11:41.34SpeedEvilI'd expect it to be 10-15%
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11:47.06pH5are we doing anything about the hammerhead's clock inputs? datasheets^Wadvertisement pdfs say it needs a 10-40MHz reference clock and 32kHz rtc signal - could those be switched off?
11:47.49SpeedEvilIt AIUI genereates its own clocks.
11:47.54SpeedEvilWith a crystal.
11:48.40SpeedEvilSo when the power is switched off, it goes off.
11:49.34pH5SpeedEvil: look at http://www.globalocate.com/SEMICONDUCTORS/HAMMERHEAD_PB.pdf (linked from OM wiki)
11:50.07SpeedEvilWRT?
11:50.21pH5on the second page there is a diagram where it looks like it needs 'VCXO' and 32kHz clocks to drive a PLL
11:50.36pH5wrt?
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11:50.48SpeedEvilWith Regards To
11:50.52SpeedEvilhang on
11:52.08SpeedEvilActually then.
11:52.15greghuntwith respect to
11:52.16SpeedEvilIt looks like that'll be an external module.
11:53.30SpeedEvilIt _might_ - if the design of the CPU clock scheme is just right - be able to share that.
11:53.34SpeedEvilI'm really unsure though.
11:53.50SpeedEvilBut that would imply that the GPS would only run in fast mode.
11:54.21SpeedEvilI can't imagine that they'd be running the VCXO all the time, it'll draw comparatively a lot of power.
11:54.51SpeedEvilthe RTC signal can come straight from the CPU IIRC.
11:55.57SpeedEvilAn interesting question is what's the standby power, and how fast we can load the chip with the correct info so it's in a similar state to if it'd been powered off.
11:56.19SpeedEvilif it'd not been powered off.
11:59.14pH5what could provide the reference clock on the neo?
11:59.39SpeedEvilIt's almost certain to simply be a canned [1-4]0Mhz VCXO
12:00.25SpeedEvilThe 32khz clock can IIRC be gotten from the CPU.
12:03.23pH5SpeedEvil: so you assume it is running all the time?
12:04.34SpeedEvilI dunno.
12:04.37SpeedEvilIt may or may not be.
12:04.52SpeedEvilOh
12:04.59SpeedEvilif you mean the VCXO, almost certainly not.
12:05.15SpeedEvilIt'll be switched, unless they've made an oops.
12:07.09balrog-kunpH5: there's nothing much interesting in it
12:08.11pH5in the tomtom log there is a part where they open "/proc/clocks"
12:08.30pH5balrog-kun: internal documents, then :)
12:12.32*** part/#openmoko yogesh_ (i=yogesh@nat/codito/x-81f2b4c38113824a)
12:12.33tonygcan anyone tell me if programming a GSM for actual phone-call-like behaviour is similar to programming the old voice-fax-modems in the mid-90s: ie. using hayes commands to set things up and then getting raw audio down a serial port?
12:12.48tonygi'm just curious about how complex that aspect of the openmoko code will be
12:12.51tonygor, is
12:13.19koentonyg: AT commands, but those will be abstracted by libgsmd
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12:14.16balrog-kunthe CLK pin of the hammerhead is wired to a chip called DSB321SD, which has all other pins wired to ground except VCC which connects to VTCXO_2V8
12:15.18pH5balrog-kun: thanks!
12:15.54tonygkoen, ah ok. I'd imagine libgsmd is going to be pretty lightweight, then?
12:16.02tonygnot a lot of low-level bit-twiddling? :-)
12:16.41koentonyg: http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/repo/?action=details&pnm=libgsmd0
12:17.03tonygthanks
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12:21.32tonyglooks great.
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12:24.13pH5balrog-kun: what board revision is that? for gta01bv3 the power_tcxo_2v8 control is replaced by power_core_1v5 and gps_power_2v8_set doesn't do a thing.
12:24.49balrog-kunpH5: this is GTA01Bv3 precisely
12:26.05koenif I try to turn on 1v5, 2v5 shuts off
12:27.36balrog-kunlemme check what else is connected to VTCXO_2V8
12:31.41balrog-kunit's connected to IOVDD2.8V of the pmu chip (the PCF50606) and through a chip called RT9193-28PU5 to the cpu's GPG9 (a gpio)
12:32.07balrog-kunthe GPG9 is the one that enables the RT91... chip
12:33.16ElrondRT91? Huh?
12:33.55balrog-kunthere's plenty of small ICs with 5 or 10 pins only, like this one
12:33.56pH5GTA01_GPIO_GPS_EN_3V3 / GTA01_GPIO_GPS_EN_2V8 are defined to be GPG9 in gta01.h for Bv3
12:36.12ElrondWhat are you guys trying to track down anyway?
12:36.13pH52V8 is only used for Bv2, so the 3V3 switch *should* turn on the reference clock, right?
12:36.14pH5Elrond: I'm trying to understand whether the GPS chip gets it's reference clock input.
12:36.15balrog-kuni don't know, the GPG9 should turn that clock on, i believe, whatever it is defined as
12:36.33ElrondpH5 - Oh, yuck. Yet another "not switched on correctly" bug with the gps?!
12:36.35balrog-kuni don't know if it needs setting another bit in the PCF50606 registers
12:37.54DukeOfURL6:30am in the Rockies
12:38.55DukeOfURL6
12:39.03pH5Elrond: i don't know. at this time all we can say is I don't get a reaction from the gps chip. could as well be my mistake, I'm a serial n00b.
12:40.05balrog-kunpH5: nobody got any reaction so far afaik (from the people on this channel) and several persons have tried
12:41.09ElrondRight. Several tried.
12:42.01pH5balrog-kun: yeah, note how I switched from "we" to "I" in the middle of a sentence. damn egocentrism ;)
12:42.59balrog-kun;)
12:43.12ElrondBTW: Is the whole legal side of thise gps thing now cleared?
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12:59.19SpeedEvilNot AFAIK.
13:00.01SpeedEvilIMOTIANAL, As long as FIC doesn't supply or support the GPL GPS driver, there is very little risk.
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13:00.52SpeedEvilThey'd need advice from lawyers in that field before shipping to the US an open source driver.
13:01.27SpeedEvilYears of jailtime per offence, and unlimited fines are not fun.
13:02.26Vegaryeah, the land of the free
13:04.08SpeedEvilhttp://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601102&sid=akGPeXiHWN2k&refer=uk - for example - anywhere they've got an extradition treaty with too.
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13:05.08balrog-kuni think the GPL GPS driver would be entirely legal, its only illegal part is the making of it using a disassembly of the original driver, but so far afaik the disassembly wasn't used
13:05.22SpeedEvilIt's not that legality which is the problem.
13:05.27SpeedEvilIt's arms control legislation.
13:05.37balrog-kunand doesn't have to be used, and even if it is used, that's impossible to prove
13:05.48SpeedEvilIt's not use.
13:05.52SpeedEvilIt's import or export.
13:06.01balrog-kunah, ok
13:06.11balrog-kuni didn't understand the legal issue then
13:06.21SpeedEvilOn a strict reading of the law, the neo, with open source GPS may require a DOD import license.
13:06.52ynezzso ship binary to US :p
13:06.56SpeedEvilThe next section of the legislation deals with nuclear weapons test equipment, and the previous one satellite motors that could be used to deorbit a satellite on a target.
13:07.08balrog-kunwhat id the driver is shipped on an attached microSD card instead of inside the Neo? :p
13:07.19Hopscotchsince in most gps chipsets the acl stuff could easily be disabled, i guess the won't care anyways
13:07.24SpeedEvilThe law isn't that clear.
13:07.58SpeedEvilExisting case law - well - lack of prosecutions.
13:08.17SpeedEvilSays that it's almost certainly OK to just ship a binary blob.
13:08.29SpeedEvilAs that's what essentially all GPSs are.
13:08.35SpeedEvilThey are mostly flash upgradable.
13:09.04SpeedEvilThe problem is that a GPL GPS has a documented 'off' switch to the mandated limits on altitude and speed.
13:09.15SpeedEvil(1000kt and 60000ft)
13:09.22DukeOfURLDoes the open GPS driver exist?
13:09.27SpeedEvilNot ATM.
13:10.23DukeOfURLkt?
13:10.28SpeedEvilknots
13:10.54DukeOfURLnautical mph?
13:11.06SpeedEvilIIRC knot = 1.1mph.
13:11.19SpeedEvilIt's supersonic anyway.
13:11.22DukeOfURLpretty fast
13:11.29DukeOfURL1000kt
13:11.48DukeOfURLsupersonic
13:11.58ynezznot for rocket
13:12.16SpeedEvilIt's a bit over mach 1.3
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13:27.14ninHerhi all
13:27.25ninHerhi all
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13:53.54MetaMorfoziSis the micro sd uilded together with the simcard slot?
13:54.06MetaMorfoziSor where is the sd card?
13:54.11MetaMorfoziShttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Image:Gta01b_v3_case_top_open_pcb_lifted.jpg
13:54.13SpeedEvilUnder the SD card.
13:54.18SpeedEvilErr
13:54.20MetaMorfoziSbattery
13:54.20SpeedEvilunder the SIM
13:54.28MetaMorfoziSoh, so hm.
13:54.30MetaMorfoziS:)
13:54.37MetaMorfoziSi thinking about the sd-wifi cards
13:54.41SpeedEvilYeah - you have to power down to remove the SD.
13:54.47MetaMorfoziSbut i think this idea is failed
13:54.54SpeedEvilNot quite.
13:54.58XorAno sdio on GTA01 yet
13:55.01SpeedEvilIt's not that hard to make a SD extension cable.
13:55.16SpeedEvilTo take it to a full size SD slot on the back of the phone.
13:55.35MetaMorfoziStrue
13:56.12MetaMorfoziSXorA: but it isn't means that never implemented?!
13:56.29XorAMetaMorfoziS: might be that those pins arent compatible
13:57.09MetaMorfoziSi hope it's just might
13:57.11MetaMorfoziShttp://www.brighthand.com/default.asp?newsID=12539
13:57.14MetaMorfoziSit's pretty nice
13:57.36MetaMorfoziSbut if i start to use this, i lost the storage place
13:57.45MetaMorfoziS(it haven't got memory:()
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13:57.56XorAof course just wait for GTA01 with wifi
13:59.14MetaMorfoziSmjr, you are true, i just thinking what will be good and what not.
13:59.24MetaMorfoziSit looks not:/
14:07.30MetaMorfoziSAAAAh! I can't find words.
14:07.52MetaMorfoziSWifi, faster cpu and possible camera...first and last what i missed before. My prays has been listened:D
14:08.05Vegarpossible camera?
14:08.27MetaMorfoziSThe hardware will update with a faster CPU and "something else everyone has been asking for". (Said at 30:20 in the FOSDEM video.) Which is presumably either a camera or wifi. (about CPU see also [9])
14:08.27*** join/#openmoko prpplague^3 (n=dave@mail.americanmicrosystems.com)
14:08.27MetaMorfoziShttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973
14:08.46Vegarwell, it probably won't be a camera
14:08.55CMWifi, atheros, I'm guessing
14:09.10MetaMorfoziSit's possible i missunderstanding something:)
14:09.31MetaMorfoziSso camera hasn'T got chance yet? (because wifi wons?)
14:09.50CMHaven't heard anything about camera, and neither would I want one
14:11.00MetaMorfoziSyes, in wiki it's not too much, i hope it will be updated soon
14:11.40MetaMorfoziSCamera can be usefull, not for imaging for national geographic, just for fun, or if you have a crash with your car etc...
14:12.14XorAmod the phone to add one then :-D
14:12.46MetaMorfoziSXorA: you can't mind how many ideas i have about "modding" neo:)
14:13.12MetaMorfoziSlatest is trying to integrate a disassembled phone's camera somehow via miniusb...:)
14:13.26MetaMorfoziSBut it need some google yet.
14:14.09XorAhack in  a usb webcam chipset
14:14.44Hopscotchremove the bluetooth and add a cam
14:14.52Hopscotcheverything needed should be on that connector :)
14:16.10XorAI thik there may be a spare internal USB anyway, my s3c24XX devboards have two usb ports
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14:16.59Hopscotchyeah, the cpu has two ports
14:17.22Hopscotchone master/slave port and one master-only port
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14:19.37MetaMorfoziSOr at least, if everything fails, get a little webcam...
14:20.04MetaMorfoziSunpowered usb s*cks up a bit, but not a big problem...
14:20.36SpeedEvilThe second port is used for the bluetooth module.
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14:21.14MetaMorfoziSAnd, what is acutally in the topic about the "mid may" date is menas that device? That has faster cpu and wifi?
14:21.32mjrMetaMorfoziS, no
14:21.36SpeedEvilWhen anyone can buy it
14:21.45MetaMorfoziSor the hw is changing constantly to september?
14:21.49MetaMorfoziSoh, yah.
14:21.51mjrMetaMorfoziS, no.
14:21.57MetaMorfoziS?
14:22.08SpeedEvilThe hardware has one rev before sep
14:22.22mjrno it's not one with wifi and faster cpu in May, and no, not changing constantly
14:22.25mjrwhat SpeedEvil said
14:22.40MetaMorfoziSokay, i understand, and when that rev dated?
14:22.47SpeedEvilJunish maybe.
14:22.49SpeedEvilWho knows.
14:22.57MetaMorfoziScool.
14:23.02mjrI doubt Junish what with this release being out only now, but we'll see
14:23.03SpeedEvilI don't think it's been announced.
14:23.11SpeedEvilI meant julyish
14:23.26mjrjulyish maybe possible
14:23.37MetaMorfoziS:)
14:23.37SpeedEvilI wouldn't be surprise any time from july-september for the revision.
14:23.45mjranyway, they'll announce more details on the revision when these p1 May sales start up
14:23.51mjrSpeedEvil, indeed me neither
14:24.07MetaMorfoziShard to wait:/
14:24.07mjr(or at least they've promised to do so)
14:24.31XorAmjr: they will
14:24.37XorAmjr: they are insanely busy
14:25.01mjrno doubt
14:26.32MetaMorfoziSso for humans, no reason to buy neo before the last rev
14:26.47SpeedEvilI want one ASAP.
14:26.48XorAMetaMorfoziS: for humans, wait until sept
14:26.53MetaMorfoziS:(
14:26.54MetaMorfoziS:)
14:26.57mjrif all goes well, there will be no "last" :]
14:27.01XorAMetaMorfoziS: for h4x0rs P1 will be fun
14:27.08SpeedEvilJust basically as a portable X box.
14:27.14MetaMorfoziSfor rich haxors;)
14:27.15mjrmaybe last 1973 rev, though
14:27.22XorASpeedEvil: it can join my collection of portable X boxes
14:27.23MetaMorfoziSmjr, sorry:)
14:27.44SpeedEvilX + GPS + bluetooth + USB +touchscreen = cool.
14:27.55SpeedEvilGSM might be interesting too.
14:28.07MetaMorfoziSand wifi, and fast cpu;)
14:28.08mjrSpeedEvil, hehe. Well, at least the GPRS part is interesting too :)
14:28.24mjrvoice calls, meh, sure, throw them in...
14:28.24SpeedEvilOne of the first things I'll be porting to it if it arrives soon is MegaTunix.
14:28.36MetaMorfoziSand mobility?
14:28.37MetaMorfoziS:D
14:28.48SpeedEvilWhich is an interface to a DIY ECU.
14:29.18SpeedEvilWhat's sopwith? Realtime camel navigation?
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14:29.41MetaMorfoziSlooks...
14:29.41MetaMorfoziS:D
14:30.09mjrhttp://sopwith.classicgaming.gamespy.com/
14:30.16StephmwSpeedEvil: it's a horizontal scroller flying game
14:30.23mjra classic DOS game, nowadays free software
14:30.24StephmwSpeedEvil: first released for DOS in the 80s
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14:30.42mjrjust too bad that it really can't be adapted the touchscreen controls
14:30.45Stephmwmiip: we may be a few buttons short for it though
14:30.50Stephmwerr
14:30.54Stephmwmjr: aye
14:30.54mjrbut I'm gonna get me a BT keypad anyway...
14:30.57miip;)
14:31.01miiphi btw
14:31.07Stephmwheya :)
14:31.22SpeedEvilOne finger along a side as a control, and then tap the otehr corner
14:31.34SpeedEvilfor fire.
14:31.41SpeedEvilbut ...
14:32.04Stephmwfire = bomb, and machine gun... 2 controls?
14:32.40Stephmwtotal controls: speed up/down, attitute up/down, bomb, machine gun... pause
14:33.06MetaMorfoziSThe touchscreen only handles one finger at one time, not?
14:33.14sannesthe neo1973 will never be a hit if it doesn't get a cell processor in p2 :P ..
14:34.07SpeedEvilMetaMorfoziS: not quite.
14:34.34SpeedEvilIf you have multiple touches, you pretty much get a touch registered in the centre of the bounding box of the touches.
14:34.59SpeedEvilHowever, if the touch instantly jumps, then it's been touched again.
14:35.15mjryeah, you can sorta do some extrapolation on that if you want
14:35.38mjrnot real multitouch tho
14:35.44SpeedEvilyeah.
14:35.55balrog-kunif you assumed that two touches never happen at the same time and that the measuerements are accurate enough, you could kind of emulate a multitouch
14:36.12SpeedEvilThey aren't.
14:36.31SpeedEvilThe 'centre of bounding box of touches' is only an approximation.
14:36.34balrog-kunand you would probably need more assumptions
14:36.43SpeedEvilPressure, and area of touches are also important.
14:36.54balrog-kunoh, yeah
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14:37.30MetaMorfoziSand don't forget the very little screen:(
14:38.11MetaMorfoziSIs that have chance to neo gets a bigger (in real size) display before september?
14:38.11balrog-kuni wonder how the real multitouch screens are made, maybe they are really some slitghlty modified normal touchscreens and most of the work is done in software...
14:38.49MetaMorfoziSAs i know that plays with laser or infra beams, and it's modification when you touches the screen
14:39.23SpeedEvilbalrog-kun: Do you know what a resistor is?
14:39.28MetaMorfoziS:)
14:39.52mjrMetaMorfoziS, as for the casing, the Neo as we have now is it.
14:39.54balrog-kunSpeedEvil: the name rings a bell :p
14:40.10SpeedEvilBasically.
14:40.32SpeedEvilWheras a singletouch touchscreen has two resistive elements - the top and the bottom.
14:40.51SpeedEvilwith a voltage gradient applied at right angles on each access to sense it.
14:41.05MetaMorfoziSmjr i don't understand that sentence, can you explain that more? (sorry)
14:41.24SpeedEvilThe multitouch screen has multiple resistive strips in parallel.
14:41.38SpeedEvilso it's like a combination of a keyboard and a touchscreen.
14:41.57SpeedEvilyou can read each 'patch' as a seperate touchscreen pretty much.
14:42.45balrog-kunSpeedEvil: ah i get it now
14:42.48StephmwSpeedEvil: ah, so it's not based on that frustrated internal reflection stuff?
14:42.55SpeedEvilno.
14:43.03SpeedEvilThat's totally different.
14:43.11SpeedEvilThough that can also do multitouch.
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14:43.28MetaMorfoziShm, i thought the same that Stephmw asks.
14:43.35balrog-kunbut i guess, since multitouchscreen is something relatively modern and mostly existing in labs, that there may be a couple of different designs
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14:43.44SpeedEvilYou can do it in several ways.
14:43.55SpeedEvilIt's also useful for SAW displays.
14:44.14SpeedEvilWhich is basically sonar, as you've seen in many submarine movies, but on a display.
14:44.24SpeedEvilAnd using glass not water.
14:44.37Stephmwit's be interesting to extrapolate pressure from area pressed, rather than using a pressure sensitive pad
14:44.44SpeedEvilYeah.
14:44.54SpeedEvilSAW can sort-of do that.
14:45.11SpeedEvilWith smart enough hardware.
14:45.33SpeedEvilThough you're really picking up sound absorbancy rather than pressure as such.
14:45.33balrog-kunSAW stands for surface acoustic wave? or that's a different thing?
14:45.37SpeedEvilyes.
14:45.38SpeedEvilSame thing.
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14:45.56SpeedEvilit bounces sound around the display, and listens for the silent bits where the finger absorbs the signal.
14:46.08balrog-kunokay, the only one that sounded related in the wikipedia disambiguation for SAW
14:46.08SpeedEvilfinger or pointer.
14:46.43SpeedEvilThere are also things that shine light across just in front of the screen, and look for beam-breaks.
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15:09.03webjamescounter
15:09.04alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: a week, 4 days 08:50:59 (11.369 +-3.5 days) (1078;193)
15:09.06webjamescountdown
15:09.31webjamesnice..
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15:20.40aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[OpenMoko_under_QEMU]]
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15:45.18koenany news on the hammerhead?
15:45.25arwhello
15:46.18webjameshello
15:46.33webjames:)
15:47.19arwi am interested in collaborate to develop software applications for the OpenMoko
15:47.58arwwhat can i do?
15:47.59alorilarw: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
15:48.36arwaloril ok, thank you
15:49.02webjamesaloril is an automatic bot thing, if you speak to abraxa_ he might be able to help
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15:57.46TRIsoftgtg cu
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16:24.12PBeckhi
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16:29.22CIA-24openmoko: 03thomas * r1901 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-footer/src/main.c: openmoko-footer: Don't override the style. Remove unused variables.
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16:40.19sumai want to know the release date of openmoko
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16:41.40guaquasuma: before the end of the year
16:41.42guaquamost likely
16:41.48sumathat is good
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17:06.33abraxa_guaqua: Now that's quite the rough estimate - though undoubtedly true
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17:09.00guaquaabraxa_: like the question :)
17:09.38abraxa_Yeah, especially since OpenMoko is pretty much "released" already
17:14.11SpeedEvilFor the uninitiated, yes.
17:15.52arwhere are a some example for  spanish wiki/Main_Page:
17:15.52arw<PROTECTED>
17:15.54webjamescounter
17:15.55alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: a week, 4 days 06:44:08 (11.281 +-3.5 days) (1079;193)
17:17.45webjamescounter!
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17:18.25arwi moved it, to : http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Main_Page/es
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17:20.34aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User_talk:Arw]] [[Hammerhead_protocol]]
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17:25.58alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: a week, 4 days 06:34:05 (11.274 +-3.5 days) (1080;193)
17:27.53LuitvDhmm
17:33.57Sufflopecounter?
17:33.58alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; P0: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review; a week, 4 days 06:26:05 (11.268 +-3.5 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-05-13);  4 months, a week, 5 days (135.768 +-15.0 days) for mass market (2007-09-15): see topic for more info (1081;193)
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17:47.42ElrondAhh, finally some instabilities less: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/ChangeLog#2007-05-3
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18:18.32thorbenkHi all :-) Out of curiosity, I'm trying to build openmoko using MokoMakefile
18:18.59abraxa_Heyho
18:19.24thorbenkBut the build fails at fontcacheproto during configure, error: possibly undefined macro: AM_SET_CURRENT_AUTOMAKE_VERSION
18:20.02abraxa_Maybe update autoconf/automake?
18:21.30thorbenkHmm, I'm running Gentoo ~x86
18:25.04thorbenkAny other ideas?
18:25.05alorilthorbenk: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
18:26.01thorbenkHmm, very thoughtful, but thanks, I know the wiki already ;-)
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18:46.43aloril2hm.. new heuristics: if user mentions mokomakefile, assume user has RTFW ;-)
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18:58.35Elrondaloril2 - *lol* :-)
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19:23.34aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Template:Languages]] [[Main_Page/es]] [[Wishlist:LiveUSB_distro]]
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19:28.59arwwhat difference exist from projects.openmoko.org and ww.openmoko.org?
19:30.13aevinarw: what do you mean. if you click on "projects" (top right) at www.openmoko.org you'll end up at projects.openmoko.org
19:30.34aevins/mean\./mean\?/
19:31.29arwaewin i mean, come from same organizarion
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19:33.23arwaewin, if i want to join/create a project ?
19:33.46arwis projects.openmoko.org  the right place?
19:33.54aevinarw: yes! :-)
19:33.56abraxa_Pretty much, yeah
19:34.37Vegardoes projects. work?
19:34.50arwaevin sorry by w
19:34.57aevinnp :)
19:34.57arwahh.. ok, thank you
19:35.12arwi'm going to create a new ...
19:35.17abraxa_Vegar: Yup, it got fixed
19:35.26Vegarcool
19:35.36Vegaroooh
19:35.42Vegarit's got projects in it too
19:35.59aevinwhen you create a new project I think it has to be manually validated by openmoko core team before it'll be approved, so you might expect it won't happen instantly.
19:36.42aevinarw: what kind of project are you thinking of ? *curious* :-)
19:38.23arwaevin .. i'm thinking in voice criptography
19:38.42arwsome lile that: secure shell voice  :)
19:41.58Vegardo you know what would be cool?
19:42.00Vegarspeech to text
19:42.12arwCryptography
19:42.15arw:)
19:42.36arwmmm
19:43.11arwbut the security it's a good subjet
19:43.24arwspeech to text.. i'ts a good subjet too
19:43.24SpeedEvilEncrypting voice is the trivial part.
19:43.33SpeedEvilThe hard part is the data transfer.
19:43.58arw¿protocol?
19:44.22SpeedEvilYou can't transfer data cheaply at low latency on GSM
19:44.23arwi think that it's no matter
19:44.30SpeedEvilGSM data calls are expensive and high latency.
19:44.34SpeedEvilGPRS is high latency.
19:44.59mjrgsm data calls are okay for the purpose though. You do have to pay more than a voice call, sure, but not necessarily by a large margin
19:45.01arwi'm thinking that
19:45.04SpeedEvilYou have to use GSM voice, with a synthetic voicebox fed a bitstream
19:45.15SpeedEvilGSM data calls are also high latency.
19:45.18SpeedEvilAIUI.
19:45.23SpeedEvilAnd very slow to connect.
19:45.55SpeedEvilI saw an interesting paper on the synthetic voicebox option.
19:46.09SpeedEvilGEtting a bit over a kilobyte a second over GSM.
19:46.11arwgsm can be used as a modem?
19:46.12SpeedEvilPretty robustly.
19:46.16mjrit's not _that_ high latency (but yes, there is some)
19:46.28mjrSpeedEvil, now that is interesting
19:46.41mjrif you can get that, it'd be nice
19:46.42SpeedEvilBasically, it takes what GSM is designed to encode.
19:46.54SpeedEvilAnd encodes a signal to that.
19:47.03SpeedEvilGSM is designed so that bit errors cause small audible changes only.
19:47.10SpeedEvilSo you get some error resistance too.
19:47.14mjrmeanwhile, it would be nice to do the gsm data thing, preferrably using the cryptophone.de published protocol (to leverage their installed base)
19:47.32mjrI won't be doing that, 'course, just an opinion from the sidelines :]
19:47.34CoreDump|homeany news on the GPS?
19:47.35SpeedEvilGPRS and 'push to talk' will also work well.
19:47.42SpeedEvilCoreDump|home: basically no.
19:47.47CoreDump|home:\
19:47.56SpeedEvilCoreDump|home: Though it will now send single 0x00 bytes on command.
19:47.56buzover 1kbyte/s on gsm? isnt gsm itself 9600bit/s?
19:47.57mjryes, I have been advocating push-to-talk on the community list
19:48.07buzthat would be pretty impressive
19:48.10SpeedEvilErr - my bad.
19:48.12SpeedEvilSorry.
19:48.16SpeedEvil1300 bits/sec.
19:48.19CoreDump|homeSpeedEvil: yeah, I read the backlog and compiled the posted program
19:48.31buzthats probably not enough for voice
19:48.34CoreDump|homesame result here as for koen and pH5
19:48.40SpeedEvilIt's fine for voice.
19:48.41mjrSpeedEvil, righto, a bit less impressive, but still enough to get a low-quality voice connection going
19:48.43SpeedEvilWith good codecs.
19:48.51buzeven 4kbit speex is barely recognizable
19:49.13arwvoice codecs.. like ogg?
19:49.20SpeedEvilNo, special codecs.
19:49.26SpeedEvilDesigned for low-bitrate voice.
19:49.28mjrogg isn't a codec
19:49.41mjrspeex is a codec (for voice, don't know if it can do 1300bit/s)
19:49.42arwprotocol?
19:50.07mjrarw, multimedia container format
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19:50.13SpeedEvilWhat do you mean by protocol?
19:50.21buzSpeedEvil: speex IS a special low bitrate voice codec
19:50.25arwahh.. ok mjr
19:50.43SpeedEvilbuz: I know.
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19:52.57arwSpeedEvil i mean: standar o some like that..
19:53.15webjamescounter?
19:53.15alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; P0: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review; a week, 4 days 04:06:48 (11.171 +-3.5 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-05-13);  4 months, a week, 5 days (135.671 +-15.0 days) for mass market (2007-09-15): see topic for more info (1082;193)
19:54.09mjrAnyway. I think encrypted calls over GSM data are worthwhile, and hope Somebody (TM) will code support. PTT/GPRS for cheapskates, can be integrated into Jabber (initiate as file transfers over it).
19:55.05webjameswhat's going on with the gsp maps? any move on those?
19:55.12SpeedEvilPTT + OTP = almost trivial.
19:55.18SpeedEvilwebjames: no.
19:55.29SpeedEvilwebjames: the problem is that nobody sells suitable maps.
19:55.40SpeedEvilwebjames: And openstreetmap.org sucks basically.
19:55.51mjrwell, I was thinking that one might skip the OTP and rather use gpg for the encryption
19:56.02SpeedEvilThough it's getting better, through the aid of the beautiful people that help with the map.
19:56.12webjamesyeah.. so what are your thoughts on it? maybe support tomtom, or google maps like the N95?
19:56.13abraxa_thomasg_: You around?
19:56.14mjrthough, I'm not sure if gpg can do streaming? it would be nice to be able to start transmitting as soon as some data is available
19:56.18mjrto reduce latency
19:56.23thomasg_abraxa_, I am
19:56.29SpeedEvilwebjames: it's not possible to support tomtom.
19:56.39buzencryption is dead simple
19:56.41SpeedEvilwebjames: Tomtom either choose to release for the platform, or not.
19:56.42buzwe have ssl for something
19:56.47guaquagoogle maps is waiting for a browser
19:57.05webjamesSpeedEvil:i though the linux phones where compatable.. obviously not
19:57.07abraxa_thomasg_: Are you by chance the one who commited the changes to the OpenMoko theme today?
19:57.07SpeedEvilwebjames: Google maps works fine in firefox or something.
19:57.15thomasg_google maps is available as java j2me program and doesnt need a browser
19:57.18SpeedEvilBut you need GPRS.
19:57.26thomasg_abraxa_, no, I'm not, sorry :)
19:57.37webjamesSpeedEvil: would it interface with the gps coordinates?
19:57.37arwthen .. i'm going to think about to encrypted calls
19:57.38abraxa_thomasg_: Aww dang... thanks anyway
19:57.42thomasg_np :)
19:57.48thomasg_SpeedEvil, true, but the neo has GPRS :)
19:57.49SpeedEvilwebjames: there are other possibilities.
19:58.02SpeedEvilwebjames: For example gpsdrive
19:58.09thomasg_well, you're right, its no alternative to tomtom e.g.
19:58.13webjamesi had a quick go on openmaps
19:58.13SpeedEvilGPRS can be _very_ expensive in some cases.
19:58.19webjamesi might map a bit of my area
19:58.25SpeedEvilIt's fun!
19:58.26SpeedEvil:)
19:58.27thomasg_SpeedEvil, it always is :(
19:58.32mjrbuz, yes ssl would work, but personal gpg keys are more common (and should be made even more so) and it already works for e-mail, should use the same for PTT messages and for-recipient encrypted file transfers and such
19:58.33arw:(
19:58.35SpeedEvilthomasg_: not really.
19:59.01mjrhmm, I think gnutls could use gpg keys for auth though
19:59.03SpeedEvilthomasg_: It can be as little as 7 quid a month extra on a contract phone for a gig a month.
19:59.08*** join/#openmoko k-s[WORK] (n=gustavo@200.184.118.132)
19:59.11*** join/#openmoko krau (n=ClaudioT@200.184.118.132)
19:59.13buzyou could ocmbien gpg for auth and ssl for traffic
19:59.16SpeedEvil(UK)
19:59.20buzcombine
19:59.30thomasg_and the n95 doesnt use google maps, it uses a navigation-system which looks like google maps, but is from nokia (afaik)
19:59.33mjrbuz, yeah, as I just recalled
19:59.51buznot sure if the libs already do it, but it's trivial to do in any case
20:00.09mjrstill, I think gpg can stream so it would be nicer, in that it'd fit the "file transfer" concept nicely
20:00.27buzi think it can stream
20:00.32buzsort of, if blocksize is small enough
20:00.37webjamesthomasg_: thanks
20:01.05mjrbuz, yeah, and for this it's just that it wouldn't add too much extra latency to the ptt messages
20:01.29buzmhh i never thought gpg was particularly fast
20:01.51mjrI mean, the key point is that you could start sending the beginning of the message as it's being processed, and not wait until the end of the message
20:01.56SpeedEvilYou keep the connection open.
20:02.02SpeedEvilAnd just send data as you have it.
20:02.09SpeedEvilOtherwise the negotiation will kill you.
20:02.24mjrhmm, true, didn't think of that
20:02.34mjrright, perhaps ssl would do well then
20:02.38mjr(tls)
20:02.53SpeedEvilIt's a bit of a pity that you probably can't do inbound UDP to the phone.
20:02.54mjrand using gnutls so you can auth with gpg keys, and all is well
20:03.14SpeedEvilYou'll need to talk via a server anyway.
20:03.24SpeedEvilAs you can't make inbound connections on phones.
20:03.35mjrwell, can't rely on it anyhow
20:04.27webjamesi've just been looking on openstreetmap, maybe in the dev stage we could set the GPS to log where everyone goes and if everyone uploaded that data it might give OSM the kick it needs?
20:04.40SpeedEvilWell - that would help.
20:04.50SpeedEvilYou really need some minimal user interaction.
20:04.56SpeedEvilTo at least set the mode of the journey.
20:05.05SpeedEvilCar/boat/train
20:05.16woglindebike?
20:05.35SpeedEvilBut even just raw GPS logs, uploaded to an anonymiser server, held for a month, then submitted to OSM in a random order would help a bit.
20:05.37mjrwebjames, yeah, the idea has been rolled around
20:05.56SpeedEvilThe problem is then that someone with knowledge of the area has to trace over the dots to make roads.
20:06.36*** join/#openmoko koen (n=koen@dominion.kabel.utwente.nl)
20:07.19webjameseven with the GPS resolution high enough?
20:07.25SpeedEvilYes.
20:07.28webjames:(
20:07.37SpeedEvilHow do I know the road you'r on is the Z893
20:07.50SpeedEvilOr that you're on a train, not a car.
20:08.10SpeedEvilThe tracklogs are admittedly very helpful, and you can get a lot of data out of them.
20:08.16arwOT, i'm again , i'm looking this web :http://www.global-teck.com/english/telecomproducts.php
20:08.21webjamesi mean, i thought it would just show a lot of lines which could be split  and taged
20:08.35SpeedEvilProblem is that GPS quality varies.
20:08.52arwthat company offer a «Mobile Voice Encryptor»
20:08.57webjameswhat hardware, or signal?
20:09.37arwwith  GSM service
20:10.00SpeedEvilIt's easy if you've got access to the inner bits of the modem.
20:10.16SpeedEvilAs you can just stream data that looks enough like GSM voice to get past the filters.
20:10.24SpeedEvilBut is really your own-rolled protocol.
20:10.49webjamesjust adding my street name! :D
20:10.56SpeedEvil:)
20:12.12arwSpeedEvil , but on the openmoko project , can i  get acces to the iiner bits of the modem?
20:12.23SpeedEvilOpenmoko != neo1973
20:12.29SpeedEviland on that phone, no.
20:12.42SpeedEvilProbably not on most phones.
20:12.47*** join/#openmoko baird (n=cbaird@brushtail.apana.org.au)
20:13.12arwwhy..
20:13.21SpeedEvilWhy what?
20:13.29CIA-24openmoko: 03mickey * r1902 10/trunk/oe/conf/distro/include/sane-srcdates.inc: oe: bump SRCDATE for eds-dbus
20:13.34arwi mean, if is a open plataform ?
20:13.40SpeedEvilThe modem is a canned one.
20:13.45SpeedEvilIt responds to AT commands.
20:14.02SpeedEvilAnd has the GSM codec inside.
20:14.13SpeedEvilYou want to have access to the other side of the GSM codec.
20:14.49SpeedEvilRolling your own modem - for FIC - raises all sorts of horrible issues.
20:14.55SpeedEvilAnd is very, very expensive.
20:14.58arwthen is impossible?
20:15.13SpeedEvilOn this phone, you can't get access to the raw datastream.
20:15.34SpeedEvilIt is not impossible it won't be possible on future phones.
20:15.37mjrthat snapcell encryption thingy also seems to require circuit switched data services
20:15.47mjrso, surprise surprise, gsm data it is
20:16.25mjrof course, this is all so that operators can charge a premium for data compared to voice
20:17.22arwi can't get access to the raw datastream.. :(
20:18.22mjryes, life sucks
20:18.53arwand on low level... can i?
20:19.07mjrwhat?
20:19.48arwyes... assembler
20:20.00mjryou're not making much sense
20:20.25arw:(
20:20.56arwfor an assembly language,
20:20.58arw:(
20:21.42SpeedEvilYes, you can access the raw datastream in assembly.
20:22.03SpeedEvilYou need to crack the firmware update protocol on the GSM modem, upload a new binary.
20:23.11SpeedEvilBut...
20:23.12Vegarbut it's possible?
20:23.12SpeedEvilIn theory, yes.
20:23.12SpeedEvilThe modem can be flash updated.
20:23.13SpeedEvilHowever.
20:23.20SpeedEvilThere are no publically available flash images.
20:23.44SpeedEvilThe encryption on the update image is unknown.
20:23.53SpeedEvilAnd the language it's written in is unknown.
20:24.15SpeedEvilI mean variety of assembly language.
20:24.15CIA-24openmoko: 03mickey * r1903 10/trunk/oe/ (3 files in 3 dirs): oe: add openmoko-tasks to task-openmoko
20:24.21mjrAnd the protocol, as you said.
20:24.46SpeedEvilIt's possible in the same way that running 100m in 9.7s is possible.
20:25.53arw:9
20:25.55arw:)
20:41.46CIA-24openmoko: 03zecke * r1904 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-rssreader/ (ChangeLog src/callbacks.c):
20:41.46CIA-24openmoko: 2007-05-03 Holger Freyther <zecke@selfish.org>
20:41.46CIA-24openmoko:  * src/callbacks.c:
20:41.46CIA-24openmoko:  (cb_treeview_keypress_event): Cursor keys are not forwarded to the
20:41.46CIA-24openmoko:  search bar but are left to the TreeView
20:58.44*** join/#openmoko ebel (n=rory@212.2.177.123)
20:58.57*** join/#openmoko greghunt (n=greg@5ac62f6e.bb.sky.com)
21:06.44*** join/#openmoko BenC (n=bcollins@debian/developer/bcollins)
21:13.24DukeOfURLcute: http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS3013985136.html
21:17.42arwchip
21:17.47*** join/#openmoko Agrajag- (n=filip@c211-30-185-177.artrmn2.nsw.optusnet.com.au)
21:18.05arwlinus chip, that sound's good :)
21:18.21arwlike a blackfin
21:18.31arwfrom analog devices
21:18.38DukeOfURLdid I miss something?  Don't they need a GSM chip to do GPRS???
21:22.00pH5DukeOfURL: "Additionally, various application-specific carrier boards are available, including a [...] GPRS companion module" - they do.
21:22.25DukeOfURLk
21:22.28*** join/#openmoko longshot (n=gl@CPE-58-161-48-85.nsw.bigpond.net.au)
21:24.34aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]]
21:26.35webjameswhen the neo1973 is released will we be able to choose the colour we get?
21:27.25webjamesand, why don't GSMArena have any information about it? i have emailed them telling them about it and requesting that it is featured on their site
21:27.54rwhitbymorning
21:28.27webjamesmorning
21:28.40webjameswell evening here...
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21:52.03CIA-24openmoko: 03zecke * r1905 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-rssreader/ (ChangeLog src/moko_cache.c src/moko_cache.h): (log message trimmed)
21:52.03CIA-24openmoko: 2007-05-03 Holger Freyther <zecke@selfish.org>
21:52.03CIA-24openmoko:  Start implementing the test (untested)
21:52.03CIA-24openmoko:  * src/moko_cache.c:
21:52.03CIA-24openmoko:  (moko_cache_create_dirs): Make sure to create the dir. Somehow there
21:52.07CIA-24openmoko:  is no recursive mkdir in glib
21:52.09CIA-24openmoko:  (moko_cache_create_path): Create/build a path for the cache
21:59.02guaqua*rolleyes*
22:00.46zeckelol, I'm tired :)
22:01.32zeckegood night
22:01.37guaquanighty night
22:05.42ElrondIs sqlite by default on the phone?
22:05.48*** join/#openmoko atla_ (n=atla@p3EE3D3F7.dip.t-dialin.net)
22:24.43*** join/#openmoko Ryushin (i=proxy@windwalker.openinnovations.com)
22:26.51billl_counter
22:26.52alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: a week, 4 days 01:33:12 (11.065 +-3.5 days) (1083;193)
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22:31.53beardousaDoes anyone see a reason I wouldn't be able to use the Neo to play 6-channel audio through a Sound Blaster?
22:31.54alorilbeardousa: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
22:32.20Elrondbeardousa - You mean a usb-soundblaster-thingy?
22:32.24beardousayes
22:32.33Elronda) you need a power hub.
22:32.40beardousadoable
22:32.47Elrondb) don't expect too much CPU power from the first Neo.
22:32.49*** part/#openmoko guillaum1 (n=Guillaum@AMontsouris-153-1-39-135.w90-2.abo.wanadoo.fr)
22:32.57beardousaThat is my main concern
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22:33.04beardousaI'm not going to be doing too much DSP stuff
22:33.14beardousaI just need it to move 6 channels of 16-bit audio
22:33.20beardousafrom a file to the USB bus
22:33.32ElrondNo mp3 decoding or stuff like that?
22:33.40ElrondJust like 6channel .wav to usb?
22:33.40beardousahmm...
22:33.43beardousaoh yeah
22:33.55beardousaI would use something like FLAC
22:34.00beardousadarn
22:34.00SpeedEvilShouldn't be a problem.
22:34.02beardousaforgot about that
22:34.04SpeedEvilIf it can do USB1.1
22:34.29Elrondbeardousa - It's comparable to a Pentium at 133 MHz I hear... maybe 200MHz.
22:34.31SpeedEvilJust copying it out shouldn't be taxing.
22:34.40SpeedEvilProbably not 200.
22:34.45SpeedEvilthe pentium has much bigger caches.
22:34.49mjrhmh, is usb 1.1 enough for 6-channel 16-bit audio?
22:34.51SpeedEvilGenerally.
22:34.52ElrondSpeedEvil - Right. But deconding 6 flac channels is lots of work.
22:35.08SpeedEvilOh - I thought it was wav.
22:35.12beardousaI'd like to use Apple Lossless which is supposed to be the most efficient lossless format to decode
22:35.12SpeedEvilwav - yes.
22:35.17SpeedEvilFLAC, probably not.
22:35.20beardousabut that would require iTunes, which is not efficient
22:35.40SpeedEvilApple lossless may require decompression hardware that's built into ipod.
22:35.41SpeedEvilDunno.
22:35.46beardousanope
22:35.56beardousaiTunes can play it
22:35.58Elrond>>> 44.1e3 * 4 * 6
22:35.58Elrond1058400.0
22:36.03mjris there a free implementation for apple lossless anyway?
22:36.06ElrondHmm, that's also lots for usb1.1. :)
22:36.12SpeedEvil* 2 * 6
22:36.23ElrondHuh, right.
22:36.38beardousaand on top of that, I'd be reading from a USB HD
22:36.39Elrond0.5MB / sec.
22:36.47SpeedEvilBorderline.
22:36.51mjrbeardousa, ok, now it's getting ridiculous :]
22:37.00beardousaoh...
22:37.01SpeedEvilI'd go so far as to say almost certainly not.
22:37.09SpeedEvilAt 22Khz - probably work.
22:37.10beardousait would be possible with 2.0 though?
22:37.17SpeedEvilOh yeah, easily.
22:37.17mjrwith 2.0, sure
22:37.21SpeedEvilBut the phone only has 1.1
22:37.37SpeedEvilIf you could fit the track on the internal microSD that'd work too.
22:37.39beardousaI saw that the next one should have 2.0
22:37.43beardousaany idea when that will be?
22:37.44SpeedEvilNo.
22:37.49SpeedEvilFuture ones may have 2.0
22:38.07SpeedEvilNobodys said anything about 2.0 for this one.
22:38.13ElrondDoes the S3C2410 do DMA for usb? (as in "the main cpu has not much work with reading/writing blocks from/to usb) ?
22:38.17beardousaright, not this one, some future one
22:38.38SpeedEvilSo after septembetr or so.
22:38.45mjr"some" future one is so vague one can say almost certainly yes if the product line will hold :]
22:39.13beardousaWell, I suppose I can use something clunkier until then
22:39.29SpeedEvilDoesn't matter if the product line holds, as long as openmoko takes off.
22:39.33*** join/#openmoko charkins (n=casey@pdpc/supporter/active/charkins)
22:39.55mjrtrue
22:40.11mjrmade an extra implicit assumption there
22:40.13beardousaI was hoping to find a phone that could play 6-channel PCM and use that as the stereo in my car
22:40.24SpeedEvilOh come on.
22:40.25beardousaI guess the best option for the moment would be more of a tablet
22:40.31SpeedEvilIn your car, PCM is overkill.
22:40.35beardousano way
22:40.46SpeedEvilYou're never going to hear artifacts unless you're stationary.
22:41.09beardousaI want only the best signal for my MDA5000 DAC's
22:41.11beardousawhich I don't own yet
22:41.24Elrondbeardousa - the neo can do stero mp3 decoding to the internal sound chip. so something on that lines might work. But reading/writing to usb and decoding 6 channels will be _very_ had. Most likely not.
22:41.40SpeedEvilWell.
22:41.41ElrondAnyone doing pygtk in here?
22:41.47SpeedEvilMP3 2 channel is reported to use 25%
22:41.54SpeedEvil6 channel should be doable.
22:42.14SpeedEvilI would expect it should actually work.
22:42.57SpeedEvilBut if you want all quality theoretically possible, then go with something else.
22:42.59*** join/#openmoko TimRiker (n=timr@pdpc/supporter/bronze/TimRiker)
22:43.37beardousa2.5" screen sounds a little small to me.  Is it already pushing the limits of being able to comfortably fit in a pocket?
22:43.40SpeedEvilThough a 'canned' neo - say in a 3" circular container, might make a fun car add-on.
22:43.55SpeedEvilPretty much.
22:44.05Elrond1.5 (mid summer) might have a faster CPU. If you put the songs on a 1GB microsd... you might get happy.
22:44.12SpeedEvilBasically, the more you spend on the design, the closer you can make the display come to the edges.
22:44.20SpeedEvil1GB + 6 channel FLAC...
22:44.37SpeedEvilThat's what - an hour?
22:44.40beardousa1GB isn't nearly enough for a lossless library
22:44.47beardousaI'd need an external drive
22:44.52SpeedEvilYeah.
22:45.13SpeedEvilYou could do it with two neos, two hard drives, and three channels each.
22:45.23Elrondhihi.
22:45.44ElrondUsing the 1G microsd as "cache"? ;)
22:45.49beardousahmm... well, nice to know it IS possible, but at that point I'd rather have some sort of tablet
22:45.59SpeedEvilYeah.
22:45.59mjryou could cut USB traffic by playing 2 channels via the Neo speakers
22:46.16SpeedEvilATM I'm using an old laptop as a carputer.
22:46.16beardousano...
22:46.23Elrondmjr - He wants super-duper-uber-highquality DAC.
22:46.24SpeedEvilI'd go that route.
22:46.39SpeedEvilOld laptop + USB2 hard drive + DAC
22:46.42mjrElrond, yes, I know, I'm picking fun at him
22:46.43beardousaI already have the DAC's.  Just need a 6-channel PCM SPDIF signal
22:46.51Elrondmjr - Okay. :-)
22:47.12beardousai mean I have them picked out.  No need to worry about it on the PC
22:47.52beardousaInterestingly, I was only able to find a handful of sound cards capable of 6-channel SPDIF output, and they're all Creative
22:48.01beardousaexternal ones, I mean
22:48.29beardousaalthough I wonder if I could have 3 sound cards
22:48.33SpeedEvilSure.
22:48.41SpeedEvilcan you say SKEW!
22:48.42beardousacould I run 3 instances of JACK audio server?
22:48.50beardousaand keep them in sync?
22:48.55SpeedEvilgetting them all synced'd be hard.
22:49.14beardousaI have no ideae how that would be done
22:49.16beardousaidea
22:49.29SpeedEvilI think it basically is really hard to get it right.
22:49.44SpeedEvilIt's probably drastically easier - though much more expensive - to simply use the creative card.
22:50.10Elrondsyncing audio is tricky, I understand.
22:50.36SpeedEvil3 * cheap USB soundcards with SPDIF out are 1/10th the price of the 6 channel one though :)
22:50.45Elrond... and doing it in userspace feels... hmmm.
22:50.57ElrondSpeedEvil - Yeah.
22:51.14SpeedEvilI'm currently wondering how to do this.
22:51.21beardousaSo is there some of interrupt that fires when USB is plugged/unplugged
22:51.23SpeedEvilAs I would like several channels of datalogging.
22:51.30SpeedEvilYes, there is.
22:51.35beardousaawesome
22:51.36SpeedEvilBut it's horribly more complex than that.
22:51.50Elrondusb is just complex.
22:52.07beardousabut there is some way to make the phone do things when it gets plugged into a hub
22:52.11SpeedEvilUSB is basically a whole protocol stack.
22:52.12ElrondWhich is part of the syncing-mess.
22:52.37SpeedEvilWhich is sort of like TCP/IP, HTTP, and HTML rolled into one messy ball.
22:53.05Elrondbeardousa - I'm not too involved in kernel event-handling for usb/hubs. But I would say "possible".
22:53.09beardousaDoes it charge through USB?
22:53.12SpeedEvilYes.
22:53.42beardousaIf there's an indicator that tells you that, maybe you can just tap in
22:53.53beardousamonitor it or something
22:53.56SpeedEvilTap in for what?
22:54.13ElrondSpeedEvil - He wants to do something in userspace, when the neo is plugged in to usb. :)
22:54.26beardousaI mean if there's an icon somewhere that tells you you're charging
22:54.30SpeedEvilYeah - that's pretty trivial.
22:54.42SpeedEvilYou can hang off syslog or something.
22:54.54SpeedEvilHowever.
22:54.54mjrbeardousa, do you want to do something in reaction to the hub, or the sound adapter?
22:55.00ElrondOh yeah. Connecting a hub should pling something in syslog. ;)
22:55.08beardousahub would be adequate
22:55.18beardousaalthough sound card would be preferable I suppose
22:55.24ElrondRight.
22:55.26SpeedEvilAs I wrote in the FAQ, the answer to almost all software questions is 'it hasn't been written yet.'.
22:55.35mjrthe sound thingy is handled in udev, and that can be hooked to your heart's content
22:55.37Elrondsound card would be easier, I guess. udev even notices it being available.
22:55.44mjrthough perhaps it'd be cleaner to do it on the hal level
22:56.03SpeedEvilSurely you only handle the pod bay doors on the hal level.
22:56.14ElrondBUT: The neo is by default in usb-client mode, not usb-host!
22:56.17mjrbzzt, lip reading too
22:56.32beardousahow do you switch it to host then?
22:56.37mjrElrond, hm, true
22:57.04beardousaI'd just leave it that way permanently
22:57.21ElrondSomehow in software, I don't know really.
22:57.21beardousaor on startup
22:57.31beardousawhatever the case may be
22:58.45beardousadamn, I would be the king of convergence if my phone could be my car stereo and GPS navigation device that I could also take with me
22:58.55beardousaoh well, maybe by the end of the year
22:59.10Elrondhehe.
22:59.28SpeedEvilIt's probably going to be reasonable to turn on host mode if the USB port has power, and nothings talked to it in 10 seconds.
23:00.07mjrSpeedEvil, then you have to rig power to the Neo end of the connection too... but that's doable of course
23:00.07Elrondbeardousa - GPS navigation: Be aware, that there is no "out of the box, simply works" solutin for this, and will take lots of time.
23:00.34Elrondbeardousa - And navi and sound will be too much for the small cpu, just as sound will already kill it.
23:00.41SpeedEvilOpenstreetmaps is the current 'legal' solution.
23:00.51SpeedEvilBut though I am a contributor, it basically sucks.
23:01.03beardousawhat about roadnav
23:01.04SpeedEvilA nearby 140K population town has one road.
23:01.27beardousaoh, are you talking about the actual maps?
23:01.31SpeedEvilThere are _no_ freely legally available up-to-date maps.
23:01.43beardousaI'd be willing to pay
23:01.49SpeedEvilThere are no even cheap digital maps that you can buy.
23:02.09SpeedEvilThe map-vendors are only geared up to sell to Garmin, et al.
23:02.26SpeedEvilThe alternatives are basically:
23:02.31beardousaThen can't I buy a Garmin unit and download their maps?
23:02.33SpeedEvilgoogle-maps.
23:02.49SpeedEvilThe map is encrypted some way AIUI.
23:02.58beardousaoh...
23:03.04SpeedEvilgoogle-maps though requires a net connection.
23:03.15SpeedEvilOpenstreetmap - which sucks.
23:03.18SpeedEvilAt the moment.
23:03.24SpeedEvilMaybe in 15 years time.
23:03.48SpeedEvilAnd some way to run one of the purchasable tomtom products that are made for other platforms.
23:04.03*** join/#openmoko drath_ (i=vmaster@p5B07DB13.dip.t-dialin.net)
23:04.15SpeedEvilWhich is probably not actually legal to do, and comply with the license conditions.
23:04.18beardousayou mean like Windows?
23:04.25SpeedEvilNo - there is one for a PDA
23:04.28beardousaoh
23:05.07beardousalegally is only the preferred option as far as I'm concerned
23:05.22SpeedEvil:(
23:05.23SpeedEvilyeah
23:05.39SpeedEvilThe only really workable option is something based on google-maps.
23:05.47SpeedEvilAt the moment, if you want legal.
23:06.02SpeedEvilWhich is fine if you've got flat-rate GPRS
23:06.09SpeedEviland good connectivity where you want to go.
23:06.12beardousait's not so much that I care about being legal, but I don't want to spend the time hacking
23:06.28beardousaprogramming my own music player will be enough work
23:06.46SpeedEvilThere is someone working on a music player
23:06.52beardousait won't have the features I want
23:06.54beardousaI'm sure of it
23:07.06SpeedEvilSo go to the music player on the wiki, and comment.
23:07.09beardousaI need some way to view lyrics
23:07.19SpeedEvilOn a 2.8" screen?
23:07.22beardousayes
23:07.29SpeedEvilmjr: Unlikely.
23:07.38mjrthere are a couple of other local map services here too though
23:07.41SpeedEvilThe terms and conditions of the google maps probably applies.
23:07.52SpeedEvilThey are explicit as to what they don't permit.
23:08.23SpeedEvilAll online mappers tend to have similar T&Cs.
23:08.26mjrSpeedEvil, I'd not be so sure. Finland has a long history of allowing private copies of legally acquired material regardless of wannabe restrictions.
23:08.39mjrThough what with the EUCD implementation, I'm not really so sure
23:08.41SpeedEvilFor the simple reason that they pull from 2 providers.
23:09.00SpeedEvilWho both require similar things. (unless you pay lots of money)
23:09.03ElrondUsing garmin maps on something else then the PC (for planning) and on two _garmin_ devices is probably illegal.
23:09.12Elrond(despite the non-NT format is decrypted now)
23:10.54mjractually, seems there's no legal problem for me locally here since the maps published by the city are legal to copy for personal use. How nice.
23:11.05SpeedEvil:)
23:12.27mjr(still wouldn't be so sure about the applicability of google's terms, but I guess I'll use these in this situation
23:13.48beardousaDoes the Neo have a dock?
23:13.55SpeedEvilNo :(
23:13.56beardousaor would I have to build one?
23:13.58mjrnot as such
23:13.58beardousaohh..
23:14.02mjrthere'll be a car kit
23:14.06beardousaoh, good
23:14.14SpeedEvilHowever, it still relies on the side USB connector.
23:14.23SpeedEvilYou can't just slam it in.
23:14.59beardousawell, it might be a good idea to keep the USB cable out of sight anyway...
23:15.12beardousaand pull it out when you mount the phone
23:15.14SpeedEvilThe USB connector is on the side.
23:15.26SpeedEvilIt's not going to be easy to dock.
23:15.45SpeedEvilEspecially as you need ~0.5mm or under 'aiming'.
23:15.55SpeedEvilOr you'll destroy the connector.
23:16.20beardousaoh, so the dock will have the USB interface?
23:16.21SpeedEvilNo.
23:16.22beardousaoh
23:16.26SpeedEvilThe car 'dock' AIUI is just a holder.
23:16.38SpeedEvilThere are no other ways to connect external stuff to the phone than the USB port.
23:16.44beardousathat's all you need
23:16.49SpeedEvil(well, headphone, GSM, GPS antenna)
23:17.04SpeedEvilYes, but it's not a suitable dock connector, at least where it is.
23:17.41beardousaI'd second the motion for a dock connector
23:17.46beardousabut I'm sure they already thought of that
23:17.53SpeedEvilYeah.
23:18.28beardousaSo does the phone mic and speaker appear in Linux as an audio device?
23:18.34SpeedEvilyes.
23:18.39SpeedEvilit's all alsa
23:18.40beardousaawesome
23:18.43SpeedEvilwith 97 mixers.
23:18.53peepsalot:-O
23:19.43peepsalotoh, you mean ac97
23:20.04mjrI'm not so sure
23:21.22peepsaloti have no idea
23:21.41SpeedEvilNo.
23:21.44SpeedEvilThere are actually 97 mixers.
23:21.48SpeedEvilWhy I don't know.
23:21.51mjryes, that's what I thought
23:21.58beardousathe GPS receiver is compatible with gpsd?
23:22.03SpeedEvilyues.
23:22.06peepsalotSpeedEvil, reference?
23:22.13charkinsAnyone know how I might make the mouse cursor visible when running openmoko via xnest?
23:22.17SpeedEvilfor?
23:22.28SpeedEvilsearch gpsd on wiki
23:22.30peepsalotSpeedEvil, where it says 97 mixers
23:22.44mjrmy guess would be there's a mixer for every possible direction the sound can go... like gsm chip->audio chip->SoC/speakers/headphones/etc...
23:22.47SpeedEvilUmm - audio on wiki?
23:22.48SpeedEvilyeah
23:24.34aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]]
23:25.59beardousaI'd be able to disable any mixers on the way to the sound card, right?
23:27.07SpeedEvilTYhey'd appear as anothger card
23:27.13SpeedEvilwith own mixers
23:27.19beardousaoh, good
23:28.13beardousaYou don't need a stylus to operate the touch screen?
23:28.24mjrno
23:28.32mjrof course it won't be very accurate without...
23:28.42beardousaI'll make my buttons big
23:29.32beardousaIs there somewhere I could suggest a (pricier) model with a bigger screen?  That would really suit my application better.  I have big pockets
23:29.55SpeedEvilhardware:wishlist on the wiki
23:29.55peepsalotwiki hardware wishlist
23:30.05beardousaoh, I didn't notice that
23:44.44beardousaOn other UMPC/smart phones, do they give you any control at all over making calls, routing audio, and such?
23:46.08beardousaI mean do they give you a watered down interface or no interface?
23:46.59ElrondI just don't know.
23:53.09*** join/#openmoko daniel_bergamini (n=danieber@129.170.161.109)

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