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| 00:16.52 | pjz | I read all my ebooks with a web browser |
| 00:19.16 | CoreDump|home | pjz: that'd work, right. But "page-turning" would have to be done via stylus. I'm looking for a stylus-free solution |
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| 00:20.20 | pjz | most webbrowsers on mobiles are good at letting you scroll with just a finger |
| 00:20.31 | pjz | er, just a finger-slide |
| 00:21.07 | pjz | I've read tons of books on my A780 using the built-in browser. Also on my nokia 6620 (ancient series-60 phone) the same way |
| 00:21.47 | pjz | biggest problems I've run into are: 1) lack of enough RAM to hold/render the entire page 2) managing 100+ ebooks :) |
| 00:22.04 | pjz | I licked the managment problem with an auto-indexer though |
| 00:22.10 | CoreDump|home | pjz: well, the neo has enough RAM for that heh |
| 00:22.15 | pjz | yeah |
| 00:22.22 | pjz | one reason I'm looking forward to it :) |
| 00:22.30 | CoreDump|home | pjz: thanks for the hint. I shall investigate ;) |
| 00:22.40 | pjz | also: a browser that doesn't suck |
| 00:22.46 | pjz | or at least one I can work on |
| 00:23.17 | CoreDump|home | pjz: ebook reading on neos ~300DPI screen is a dream. Almost like reading off a page of paper but w/ backlight =) |
| 00:23.21 | pjz | I hide my ebooks behind an HTTP AUTH wall and the stupid little phone browsers don't cache the username/password if the gprs connection goes down |
| 00:23.40 | pjz | CoreDump|home: yeah, which is nice when you're reading at night :) |
| 00:23.48 | CoreDump|home | pjz: which I do a lot =D |
| 00:24.10 | pjz | doesn't disturb the wife as much as a lamp would. Also, it will turn itself off if you fall asleep. |
| 00:24.12 | CoreDump|home | maybe we can get someone to add touchscreen page-turning to fbreader =) |
| 00:24.41 | pjz | all we have to do is map some gesture to pagedown/pageup in whatever browser |
| 00:24.47 | CoreDump|home | hehe the P0 device will rather completly empty its battery and _then_ turn off =D |
| 00:25.02 | pjz | CoreDump|home: aww, it doesn't auto-shutoff yet? |
| 00:25.24 | CoreDump|home | nope, suspend is b0rked (or at least not active by default) |
| 00:26.32 | pjz | I dnno about suspend, I was just hoping for turning the backlight off. Or at least down? |
| 00:27.17 | pjz | Hrm, I'm going to have to resurrect my scrollreader |
| 00:27.22 | pjz | I have code someplace :) |
| 00:28.15 | pjz | the basic idea is from...Heinlein? or Asimov: instead of words on a page where your eyes have to go both left and right and up and down, just stream the text sideways infinitely so your eyes just have to move left and right |
| 00:28.33 | pjz | also makes it easy to use a large font since it's just "one line" of text |
| 00:28.36 | CoreDump|home | pjz: you should try the "gutenflash" thingy |
| 00:28.53 | CoreDump|home | flashes singles words very fast |
| 00:29.52 | pjz | ah, yeah, though he's wrong about your eyes not moving; they still move left to right as you read |
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| 00:30.55 | CoreDump|home | indeed |
| 00:31.09 | pjz | also, I hope it has variable delay |
| 00:31.11 | CoreDump|home | I prefer the "traditional" way in any case =) |
| 00:31.13 | pjz | I read pretty quickly |
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| 03:31.47 | aloril | (script) planet: Marcin "hrw" Juszkiewicz: OpenZaurus time is over - long live Angstrom http://blog.haerwu.biz/2007/04/26/openzaurus-time-is-over-long-live-angstrom/ |
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| 04:54.04 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:Reader]] |
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| 05:27.46 | stuhood | counter |
| 05:27.46 | aloril | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: 2 weeks, 3 days 18:32:13 (17.772 +-3.5 days) (1028;183) |
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| 05:32.27 | Mandarino | counter |
| 05:32.27 | aloril | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: 2 weeks, 3 days 18:27:33 (17.769 +-3.5 days) (1029;183) |
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| 05:53.48 | codyl | koen, http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS9425962034.html |
| 05:54.30 | codyl | your article is up there ;-) |
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| 06:28.18 | Rakshasa | mornin' |
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| 06:29.53 | Rakshasa | boingboing |
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| 07:18.07 | Hopscotch | good morning |
| 07:20.42 | pH5 | good morning |
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| 07:35.04 | wehttamb | counter? |
| 07:35.05 | aloril | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; P0: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review; 2 weeks, 3 days 16:24:55 (17.684 +-3.5 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-05-13); 4 months, 2 weeks, 5 days (142.184 +-15.0 days) for mass market (2007-09-15): see topic for more info (1030;183) |
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| 07:40.11 | wehttamb | if the AUX button calls 911 then what happens if u accidently hit it |
| 07:43.09 | SpeedEvil | It doesn't. |
| 07:43.15 | SpeedEvil | At least not directly. |
| 07:47.04 | wehttamb | what does it do then |
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| 07:49.34 | SpeedEvil | Context dependant AIUI. |
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| 08:12.23 | wehttamb | what is AIUI |
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| 08:14.40 | Stephmw | heya |
| 08:18.16 | tigert | calling 911 here doesnt do much :) |
| 08:19.10 | SpeedEvil | As I Understand It |
| 08:19.36 | SpeedEvil | Some regions redirect other places emergency numbers to the local one. |
| 08:21.37 | tigert | yea. one would guess there would be some signal in the gsm system to "call the emerg number" |
| 08:21.58 | SpeedEvil | Bastard UK operators don't actually let you call it without a UK sim. |
| 08:22.13 | cbaird | 112 is the international standard, which all telcos are supposed to provide regardless of the phone's status. '000' still works in Australia, although that's internally switched by each provider. |
| 08:22.21 | tigert | 112 is used here |
| 08:22.30 | tigert | we had 000 before here too |
| 08:23.02 | XorA | SpeedEvil: thats is so untrue |
| 08:23.04 | tigert | the US is on its own parallel universe here, as in many other things :) |
| 08:23.19 | SpeedEvil | XorA: What's so untrue? |
| 08:23.34 | SpeedEvil | Err - not UK SIM - valid SIM. |
| 08:23.35 | XorA | SpeedEvil: that you cant dial GSM emergency on a phone without a SIM due to operators |
| 08:23.46 | SpeedEvil | And you certainly can't in the UK. |
| 08:23.56 | XorA | SpeedEvil: erm, wrong!!!!! |
| 08:24.08 | SpeedEvil | Well - you can dial it, you get 'no service' though. |
| 08:24.27 | tigert | have you tried, or is this urban legend? |
| 08:25.00 | XorA | my phone without a SIM comes up No SIM emergency only |
| 08:25.08 | SpeedEvil | It comes up that. |
| 08:25.15 | SpeedEvil | Actually dialing however, does not work. |
| 08:26.21 | SpeedEvil | Just tried it. |
| 08:26.28 | SpeedEvil | No network coverage. |
| 08:26.34 | SpeedEvil | And there is. |
| 08:28.37 | cbaird | Another thing different about 112 (from the 000 here) is that any carrier will pick it up, irregardless of who your mobile is locked too. |
| 08:28.50 | SpeedEvil | Not here :( |
| 08:31.08 | SpeedEvil | Just hope that I get enough money together again for the neo when it finally gets to be purchasable. |
| 08:31.18 | SpeedEvil | Annoyingly spent it. |
| 08:32.08 | cbaird | Ah, Wikipedia mentions 112 is the standard only for GSM. |
| 08:33.29 | hrw | many landlines already supports 112 too |
| 08:34.01 | SpeedEvil | Which lead to a moderate rise in false calls from faulty lines. |
| 08:34.35 | SpeedEvil | As if the line is occasionally shorting, it's much more likely to short once, once, twice, than 9 times, gap, 9 times, gap, 9 times |
| 08:34.43 | SpeedEvil | (in the UK that is) |
| 08:36.32 | chreekat | it was 112 in sweden |
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| 09:15.44 | XorA | ewon: piss in the coffee :-) |
| 09:15.52 | ewon | hah :) |
| 09:15.56 | ewon | we have to pay for the coffee |
| 09:16.01 | ewon | crappy machine coffee |
| 09:16.07 | ewon | one of many reasons I'm moving on |
| 09:16.18 | XorA | your last day task, crack the coffee machine :-) |
| 09:16.32 | ewon | I spotted a serial port on the back, I could do that |
| 09:16.38 | XorA | once one of my last day tasks was tell everyone how I got round GEC marconi internet security :-) |
| 09:16.45 | ewon | hah :) |
| 09:16.59 | ewon | I've already broke the "campus speed limit" |
| 09:17.04 | ewon | supposed to be 40kph |
| 09:17.33 | ewon | clocked 126kph this morning :) |
| 09:19.40 | XorA | ewon: wicked |
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| 09:19.46 | TRIsoft | morning |
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| 09:20.20 | hrw | hi Mac |
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| 09:31.04 | rwhitby | any MokoMakefile problems ? |
| 09:31.31 | TRIsoft | hrw: Just read the OZ / Angstrom announcement. Looks like Koen has gets all the stress now :D |
| 09:32.05 | koen | rwhitby: only the usual svn breakage |
| 09:32.25 | hrw | TRIsoft: not quite as we need to organize OZ -> Angstrom move of developers, wiki content etc |
| 09:33.09 | TRIsoft | hrw: Pretty big step with tons of work... |
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| 09:35.36 | hrw | but good that it is decided |
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| 09:36.53 | TRIsoft | hrw: Yes, even if it's hard for a lot of people. This kind of decisions is always a pain. |
| 09:38.48 | hrw | it was hard to write that text yesterday. then removal of OZ from OE |
| 09:39.24 | Stephmw | everything evolves ;) |
| 09:39.40 | Stephmw | although, having been there at OZ's birth, it brought a tear to my eye |
| 09:39.44 | Stephmw | (kidding) |
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| 09:40.22 | Stephmw | back then it was a way to improve what sharp had given |
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| 10:09.31 | hrw | http://blackmesaeast.com.pl/2007/04/27/debuging-sarge-with-openmoko-debug-board/ |
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| 10:13.43 | roh | hrw cool. i hoped that other projects adapt the jtags for other board usage |
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| 11:09.58 | CIA-16 | openmoko: 03mickey * r1855 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/ (3 files in 2 dirs): libmokogsmd: add minimal API to deal with voice calls |
| 11:10.17 | CIA-16 | openmoko: 03mickey * r1856 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/examples/openmoko-gsmd-demo/src/demo-main.c: openmoko-gsmd-demo: can receive/initiate calls now |
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| 11:13.27 | rwhitby | mickeyl: is sean using mokomakefile himself, or using it to set up machines for other people? |
| 11:13.55 | mickeyl | rwhitby: iirc he's teaching other people to use it |
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| 11:22.31 | Nebukadneza | hi |
| 11:22.51 | CIA-16 | openmoko: 03thomas * r1857 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/ (12 files): * dialer: remove history code to be replaced with libmokojournal |
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| 11:57.04 | Readon | hello, are you modifying kernel in oe environment? |
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| 12:44.09 | CIA-16 | openmoko: 03mickey * r1858 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/libmokogsmd/ (moko-gsmd-connection.c moko-gsmd-connection.h): libmokogsmd: add delegate for lgsm_voice_dtmf |
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| 12:58.25 | tonyg | hi. curious about emulation environments for developing code - are there any yet? |
| 12:58.26 | aloril | tonyg: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
| 12:58.32 | tonyg | heh |
| 13:02.33 | guaqua | tonyg: there's qemu |
| 13:03.01 | koen | tonyg: you don't need an emulator to develop code for openmoko |
| 13:03.11 | *** join/#openmoko kart_ (i=kartik@202.141.96.29) |
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| 13:04.06 | tonyg | cool. Thank you. I meant more perhaps a "distribution". Somewhere I can link against the core libs and know my code will run OK on the hardware |
| 13:04.10 | tonyg | I'll rtfaq :) |
| 13:04.54 | *** join/#openmoko prpplague (n=dave@mail.americanmicrosystems.com) |
| 13:04.57 | tonyg | have people considered getting squeak smalltalk compiled up for it? (almost certainly they have...?) |
| 13:07.00 | *** join/#openmoko silwol (n=silwol@193.170.124.198) |
| 13:09.11 | balrog-kun | if your code runs OK in qemu it will probably run OK on the hardware |
| 13:09.13 | balrog-kun | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko_under_QEMU |
| 13:10.12 | tonyg | balrog-kun, thank you. Squeak has been ported to many, many linux variants, as well as windows CE previously, so it ought to be okay. |
| 13:12.49 | balrog-kun | tonyg: yes, i think it should run |
| 13:13.27 | tonyg | oddly, the FAQ seems not to mention wireless/802.11 |
| 13:14.10 | hrw | tonyg: because phone lack it? |
| 13:14.26 | tonyg | hrw, I would have expected "does the phone support 802.11?" to be a FAQ :-) |
| 13:15.13 | guaqua | usb hub + usb wifi |
| 13:15.21 | *** join/#openmoko MetaBookfoziS (n=sajt@53d83378.adsl.enternet.hu) |
| 13:15.27 | guaqua | so yes, it does |
| 13:15.36 | balrog-kun | "when will WiFi support be added" is more of a FAQ at the moment |
| 13:16.09 | tonyg | ok, that's fair |
| 13:16.17 | tonyg | i'm guessing it's a couple iterations off? |
| 13:19.01 | mjr | At least a suitable chipset was found. |
| 13:19.07 | tonyg | mjr, that's excellent news |
| 13:19.34 | *** join/#openmoko netx (n=rlange@osiris.darkempire.org) |
| 13:20.20 | mjr | I think they've promised more details on the anticipated mass-market release specs when p1 sales start. |
| 13:21.37 | tonyg | While I would like to be developing for the platform, I'm not sure a dev kit is necessary - I'll be only doing application-level stuff, so perhaps the hardware is secondary and I can survive with qemu... |
| 13:21.50 | tonyg | until mass-market release :) |
| 13:21.58 | mjr | so maybe a more definite statement soon. Sean said on Wednesday that they're almost for sure going to have AR6K wifi in their "next product", but it was ambiguous if he meant the mass market release or something after that |
| 13:22.13 | SpeedEvil | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F tonyg: |
| 13:22.20 | tonyg | SpeedEvil, thanks |
| 13:22.37 | balrog-kun | coding in smalltalk you can survive even without qemu |
| 13:22.42 | tonyg | indeed :) |
| 13:22.52 | buz | mjr: their next product is the summer upgrade in my view |
| 13:22.53 | tonyg | so there's a couple of layers: getting a suitable vm running, and preparing a suitable image |
| 13:22.57 | balrog-kun | C can also be assumed to be portable if you're only doing application level stuff |
| 13:22.58 | buz | which basically is what should ship for mass market |
| 13:23.10 | buz | so as i understand it, there will most likely be wifi |
| 13:23.25 | SpeedEvil | If you've got a sort-of-compatible touchscreen, then you don't really need any dev environment. |
| 13:23.35 | SpeedEvil | You just develop normal X apps pretty much. |
| 13:23.38 | tonyg | yep. |
| 13:23.40 | mjr | buz, yes, it's a reasonable interpretation, I'm just trying not to raise hopes :] |
| 13:23.53 | tonyg | even a tablet would do |
| 13:24.04 | buz | well if the summer upgrade doesnt have wifi i might as well buy p1 ;) |
| 13:24.21 | tonyg | I'd just need to make absolutely sure that the VM ran at an acceptable speed without any showstoppers before committing to too much image-level development |
| 13:24.43 | tonyg | I've been disappointed before (*cough* Palm T3 *cough*) |
| 13:24.55 | SpeedEvil | A normal computer/mouse even, if you back off a bit, and accept that you may need to tweak the UI. |
| 13:25.07 | buz | (i might do that anyway, depends on the discount really ;) |
| 13:25.53 | buz | well in some people's view even september is summer ;) |
| 13:25.54 | buz | and august is summer for sure |
| 13:25.55 | tonyg | SpeedEvil, the whole squeak ui would probably need gutting and replacing anyway. it's had a very chequered past and a BurnTheDiskPacks approach is probably needed here |
| 13:26.02 | balrog-kun | Palm T3 is faster processor clocking-wise, but has less RAM and this can often be the bottleneck |
| 13:26.08 | buz | if they want to release mass market 9/11 then they need the upgrade done in august the latest |
| 13:26.16 | *** join/#openmoko orospakr (n=orospakr@132.213.238.4) |
| 13:26.17 | balrog-kun | TT3 still has more RAM than any othe Palm Inc. model |
| 13:26.29 | mjr | buz, *nod*, summer is flexible :] |
| 13:26.42 | buz | i dont believe the original june timeframe myself |
| 13:26.43 | tonyg | balrog-kun, yes it would have been great, it's just palmOS is a horrible nasty platform to code for if you're used to unix development... |
| 13:26.52 | buz | in fact, i kinda hope it will be july |
| 13:26.53 | tonyg | well, I had trouble anyway |
| 13:26.55 | balrog-kun | it's already mostly summer here the P1.5 is going to be a summer release |
| 13:26.57 | buz | i have exams in june ;) |
| 13:27.13 | buz | (the last ones hopefully) |
| 13:27.26 | balrog-kun | tonyg: Linux runs on T|T3 |
| 13:27.49 | balrog-kun | provided they can ship the P1.5 before the summer ends :) |
| 13:27.56 | thresh | i wish it ran on T5. |
| 13:28.16 | balrog-kun | thresh: there's a port for T5 too, but at a much less advanced level |
| 13:28.17 | hrw | thresh: what a problem? |
| 13:28.39 | thresh | Last time i checked the site, it was a real mess getting it to boot. |
| 13:28.47 | buz | the cpu upgrade for p1.5 shouldnt be that hard |
| 13:28.48 | buz | but wifi might |
| 13:28.50 | thresh | it was like 6 months ago, though |
| 13:28.55 | balrog-kun | it's always going to be a mess i'm afraid, for all Palm models |
| 13:29.02 | balrog-kun | but it's lots of fun |
| 13:29.06 | balrog-kun | ;) |
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| 13:46.53 | simon_ | !topice |
| 13:47.06 | simon_ | counter? |
| 13:47.06 | aloril | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; P0: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review; 2 weeks, 3 days 10:12:53 (17.426 +-3.5 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-05-13); 4 months, 2 weeks, 4 days (141.926 +-15.0 days) for mass market (2007-09-15): see topic for more info (1031;183) |
| 13:50.58 | Kero | are the kernel 2.6.21 dynticks/tickless features also for ARM? And if so, do they indeed save power? |
| 13:51.10 | *** join/#openmoko unmadindu (n=sayamind@gnu-india/admin/unmadindu) |
| 13:51.51 | koen | Kero: dyntick for arm has been in for 2.6.16 or so |
| 13:52.01 | koen | it was written for arm to start with |
| 13:52.24 | koen | (shows how x86 centric reports are) |
| 13:53.09 | Kero | reports always are. developments are often x86 centric, too (even though it's a not-so-nice architecture) |
| 13:53.47 | koen | I think dyntick was in 2.6.12 in the linux-omap tree |
| 13:54.02 | koen | <PROTECTED> |
| 13:54.10 | koen | their* |
| 13:55.27 | Kero | ok; I guess it saves power, then :) out of curiosity, any estimate on how much? |
| 13:56.11 | koen | so much that they didn't bother implementing suspend for the 770 and 800 |
| 13:56.48 | *** join/#openmoko deepank (n=deepankg@59.178.43.175) |
| 13:56.59 | buz | oh so i might finally reach windows runtime with my laptop? |
| 13:57.11 | *** join/#openmoko pleemans (n=peter@d5152D19B.access.telenet.be) |
| 13:57.18 | koen | buz: doubtfull |
| 13:57.19 | SpeedEvil | Dynticks only saves power if your CPU is low power use in idle. |
| 13:57.25 | *** join/#openmoko Sup3rkiddo (n=sudharsh@59.92.39.22) |
| 13:57.37 | SpeedEvil | Unfortunately, the neo processor doesn't use much less. |
| 13:57.43 | koen | windows underclocks and undervolts the cpu quite agressively |
| 13:57.47 | buz | koen: yeah especially because i use encrypted disks ;) |
| 13:58.07 | buz | oh you can tune that in linux |
| 13:58.28 | koen | buz: sure, but it'd be nice to have a sane default :) |
| 13:58.43 | buz | well with powersaved its not that hard |
| 13:58.50 | buz | it just doesnt seem to help that much |
| 13:59.04 | buz | part of the reason is probably that linux swaps way too much |
| 13:59.11 | buz | hd practically never spins down |
| 13:59.36 | buz | you cant do suspend to disk without swap :( |
| 13:59.49 | buz | well not without suspend2 which brings its own slew of issues |
| 14:00.41 | *** join/#openmoko Mandarino (n=Mandarin@14.pool85-50-104.dynamic.orange.es) |
| 14:01.08 | koen | oh, wait, you use x86 |
| 14:01.15 | koen | it's wonder that can suspend at all ;) |
| 14:01.26 | Kero | a mobile phone shouldn't suspend anyway :) and I'm not sure the boot sequence of my laptop is faster than the wakeup sequence |
| 14:01.36 | Kero | *slower |
| 14:01.39 | buz | mine is |
| 14:02.06 | XorA | Kero: suspend to RAM is almost instant |
| 14:02.10 | buz | plus it means i cant really restart work where i left off |
| 14:02.14 | koen | the olpc can now resume in 100ms |
| 14:02.18 | *** join/#openmoko rd_ (n=rd@segfault.net) |
| 14:02.22 | koen | still ten times slower as arm |
| 14:02.29 | buz | XorA: my laptop sucks oodles of power in suspend to ram |
| 14:02.36 | koen | but better as the ~minutes for multi GHz laptops |
| 14:02.44 | Kero | XorA: my laptop never managed to suspend to RAM. |
| 14:02.51 | buz | a full battery doesnt last over 48h i'd say |
| 14:03.02 | XorA | Kero: but arm devices do it all the time and battery lasts at least 4 weeks on my zaurus |
| 14:03.14 | koen | ~2 weeks with suspend to ram on my powerbook |
| 14:03.24 | *** join/#openmoko deepank (n=deepankg@59.178.43.175) |
| 14:03.24 | buz | yeah powerbooks can do it much longer than my toshiba |
| 14:03.27 | buz | not sure why, really |
| 14:03.48 | buz | maybe toshiba's battery calculator is broken |
| 14:03.50 | Kero | XorA: cool. my iPAQ managed 2 weeks, in the end, iirc. |
| 14:04.09 | buz | i wonder how long the T60 will last |
| 14:04.16 | buz | (if/as/when i finally get it) |
| 14:04.21 | Kero | that pesky gsm chip in the Neo will make it last a lot shorter, I fear? |
| 14:04.26 | SpeedEvil | Why? |
| 14:04.30 | *** join/#openmoko kap1 (n=kapil@122.163.192.52) |
| 14:04.32 | SpeedEvil | Well, yes, if you turn it on. |
| 14:04.37 | SpeedEvil | You don't _have_ to. |
| 14:04.42 | koen | arm7 is pretty frugal |
| 14:04.50 | buz | well if you want a PHONE you HAVE to |
| 14:04.52 | koen | and gsm in powersave isn't too bad either |
| 14:04.57 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 14:05.12 | SpeedEvil | It's probably on the order of a week on GSM alone. |
| 14:05.13 | buz | if you only care for the PDA, well you can turn it off |
| 14:05.16 | Kero | SpeedEvil: I want to switch it off when I don't want to be reachable, certainly :) |
| 14:05.40 | Kero | a week is pretty good. |
| 14:05.49 | buz | for a smartphone yes |
| 14:05.54 | buz | for a normal cellphone it's pretty bad |
| 14:06.04 | Kero | my current cellphone started at a week :) |
| 14:06.06 | SpeedEvil | On the order of. |
| 14:06.10 | Kero | right now it's horrible. |
| 14:06.16 | Kero | (battery dying) |
| 14:06.24 | SpeedEvil | So, 2-21 days |
| 14:06.25 | Kero | (so yes, I want my Neo :) |
| 14:06.50 | *** join/#openmoko calvin_ (i=calvin@nat/novell/x-445c32a73a1ef31e) |
| 14:07.37 | SpeedEvil | If you just wake up to poll an answering machine for calls, or SMSs, it'll last _much_ longer. |
| 14:08.07 | buz | its also not terribly useful then |
| 14:08.13 | SpeedEvil | Dunno. |
| 14:08.33 | SpeedEvil | Being contactable within 1/2 hour is probably quite acceptable in many cases. |
| 14:08.41 | Kero | true |
| 14:09.10 | SpeedEvil | Kero: Aha- you need an accellerometer for the last I guess :) |
| 14:09.12 | buz | well it means i get to PAY |
| 14:09.29 | balrog-kun | but, if you plan to code for hours and do graphics on the phone and dominate the world then you may run out of battery i'm afraid |
| 14:09.42 | Kero | SpeedEvil: does the Neo have one? :) |
| 14:09.51 | SpeedEvil | Not as stock. |
| 14:09.56 | SpeedEvil | Pretty trivial to add though. |
| 14:11.09 | buz | wtf? |
| 14:11.17 | Kero | if the phone screams, you;d try to catch it before it hits the ground? |
| 14:11.35 | Kero | or would you switch off GPS since you're in space? |
| 14:13.36 | SpeedEvil | No - if it detects 0G - freefall - it screams. |
| 14:13.47 | SpeedEvil | Before (possibly) smashing into lots of bits. |
| 14:14.00 | mjr | Kero, of course not, silly, you'd assume outside GPS satellite orbits for calculations instead |
| 14:14.32 | SpeedEvil | You can actually use GPS out to around the moon. Using the side-beams of satellites just coming over the horizon. |
| 14:14.36 | balrog-kun | it should rather start getting online and syncing all the data from the phone through GPRS before the data is lost forever |
| 14:14.38 | SpeedEvil | You do need a 1-2m dish. |
| 14:14.43 | XorA | detect zero G and outside GPS satelites, phone NASA for rescue |
| 14:15.21 | buz | balrog-kun: sync to microsd |
| 14:15.26 | mjr | "Houston, we have a problem" |
| 14:15.26 | buz | those cards are quite resilient |
| 14:15.51 | balrog-kun | it should detect the height too |
| 14:15.54 | guaqua | proper encryption is what i want |
| 14:15.58 | balrog-kun | we need a variometer in the device |
| 14:16.01 | buz | gprs might give you 1 ping in that timeframe if you're very lucky |
| 14:16.07 | buz | guaqua: thats simple |
| 14:16.13 | SpeedEvil | Naah. Accellerometer is just fine for this sort of app. |
| 14:16.14 | buz | dm-crypt is in the kernel |
| 14:16.20 | guaqua | buz: but also one of the most important things out there :) |
| 14:16.28 | buz | yeah i agree |
| 14:16.35 | SpeedEvil | (detecting falling distance) |
| 14:16.40 | *** part/#openmoko kap1 (n=kapil@122.163.192.52) |
| 14:16.58 | *** join/#openmoko drWyrM (i=c88e3026@gateway/web/cgi-irc/ircatwork.com/x-7802d7c013a6bd3c) |
| 14:17.01 | SpeedEvil | Though radar distance sensors and airbags could work too. |
| 14:17.18 | *** join/#openmoko Moo^^ (n=moo@owla-gw.cust.eunet.fi) |
| 14:17.27 | Sup3rkiddo | not really related to openmoko, but since the developers use quilt extensively (i think..), can anyone point me to "the quilt for dummies" docs someplace so that i might hack about the toolchain in peace |
| 14:17.28 | guaqua | airbags :D |
| 14:17.44 | guaqua | that'd be hilarious |
| 14:17.46 | Kero | SpeedEvil: an airbag in a phone? |
| 14:17.53 | *** join/#openmoko gdiebel (n=gdiebel@adsl-69-217-146-185.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net) |
| 14:17.59 | SpeedEvil | Sure. :) |
| 14:18.00 | buz | good luck going on a plane with that phone |
| 14:18.04 | guaqua | airbag replacement after someone drops the phone on a nail |
| 14:18.05 | koen | Sup3rkiddo: the developers use OE for the toolchain, not quilt |
| 14:18.22 | *** join/#openmoko libervisco (n=libervis@tuxhacker/libervis) |
| 14:18.23 | Sup3rkiddo | koen, for patches..i meant. |
| 14:18.41 | balrog-kun | that makes me think of.. inflatable doll in a phone |
| 14:18.44 | buz | wtf, prices for USB flash sticks are rising?!? |
| 14:24.05 | SpeedEvil | It's a conspiracy by the mobile hard disk makers. |
| 14:24.46 | buz | yeah well screw them i'm not gonna buy a 1" drive ;) |
| 14:24.52 | buz | i just wont buy anything at all |
| 14:25.03 | *** join/#openmoko hammi (n=root@p54B4355A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 14:25.21 | SpeedEvil | I'm really tempted to try selling my 1.3" drives as 'ideal for ipod replacements'. |
| 14:25.31 | SpeedEvil | They are only 20Mb though. |
| 14:25.42 | SpeedEvil | they are actually mechanically compatible. |
| 14:25.57 | buz | uhm ipod is using 1.8" no |
| 14:26.23 | SpeedEvil | True, but they still fit - just not so large. |
| 14:26.31 | SpeedEvil | The connector is the same. |
| 14:27.49 | *** join/#openmoko dottedma1 (n=mag@dottedmag.net) |
| 14:28.32 | XorA | SpeedEvil: just piss around with ISO units a 20 Giga Milli Megs, the ebayers will never figure it out |
| 14:29.32 | XorA | s/Megs/Bytes/ |
| 14:30.30 | balrog-kun | if you comment that it can store about 100 e-books and/or pictures everyone will think it must be quite big |
| 14:30.38 | guaqua | :) |
| 14:30.46 | guaqua | "thousands of pictures" |
| 14:31.02 | SpeedEvil | 30 movie scripts |
| 14:31.17 | balrog-kun | thousands.. that would have to be very small ones :) |
| 14:31.35 | guaqua | yes :) |
| 14:31.57 | SpeedEvil | I have way too much of that sort of crap. |
| 14:32.02 | *** join/#openmoko abraxa_ (n=abraxa@pd95ffeef.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 14:32.11 | SpeedEvil | I got the 20MB drives when admittedly they were a good price. |
| 14:32.16 | *** part/#openmoko GaKkGaKk (i=Viko@vpn-222222.vpn-s.ntnu.no) |
| 14:32.28 | SpeedEvil | But they've stayed in their boxes, as I couldn't think of any use for them. |
| 14:32.56 | *** join/#openmoko kart_ (n=kart_@202.141.96.29) |
| 14:33.37 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 14:33.41 | guaqua | :) |
| 14:37.53 | *** join/#openmoko libervisco (n=libervis@tuxhacker/libervis) |
| 14:42.31 | CIA-16 | openmoko: 03rob * r1859 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/ (ChangeLog libmokoui/moko-window.c libmokoui/moko-window.h): |
| 14:42.31 | CIA-16 | openmoko: 2007-04-27 Rob Bradford <rob@openedhand.com> |
| 14:42.31 | CIA-16 | openmoko: * libmokoui/moko-window.c: (moko_window_set_status_message), |
| 14:42.31 | CIA-16 | openmoko: (moko_window_set_status_progress): |
| 14:42.31 | CIA-16 | openmoko: * libmokoui/moko-window.h: |
| 14:42.32 | CIA-16 | openmoko: Add functionality for controlling footer. |
| 14:43.12 | CIA-16 | openmoko: 03rob * r1860 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-footer/src/ (callbacks.c callbacks.h footer.c footer.h main.c main.h): |
| 14:43.12 | CIA-16 | openmoko: Switch footer to using X properties for control (+ significant refactoring and |
| 14:43.12 | CIA-16 | openmoko: improvements.) |
| 14:43.37 | CIA-16 | openmoko: 03rob * r1861 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/examples/openmoko-stylus-demo/src/demo-main.c: Make the stylus demo application use the new status message/progress API. |
| 14:49.10 | *** join/#openmoko slomo (n=slomo@ubuntu/member/slomo) |
| 14:50.52 | CIA-16 | openmoko: 03dodji * r1862 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/ (5 files in 2 dirs): |
| 14:50.52 | CIA-16 | openmoko: added moko_time_as_timet. did some cosmetic changes to moko-journal.h,c. |
| 14:50.52 | CIA-16 | openmoko: * src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/libmokojournal/src/moko-journal.c: |
| 14:50.52 | CIA-16 | openmoko: changed the caller/callee number props into local/distant props. |
| 14:50.52 | CIA-16 | openmoko: * src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/libmokojournal/src/moko-time.c,h: |
| 14:50.52 | CIA-16 | openmoko: added moko_time_as_timet() |
| 14:51.31 | *** join/#openmoko shenki (n=shenki@ppp33-135.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net) |
| 14:52.04 | *** join/#openmoko kW__ (n=kwkw@ip-58-28-154-167.ubs-dsl.xnet.co.nz) |
| 14:54.11 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Main_Page/ru]] [[Advanced_End-user/ru]] |
| 14:56.07 | *** join/#openmoko pavelm (n=pavel@gprs189-60.eurotel.cz) |
| 14:56.19 | pavelm | Heya, everyone. |
| 14:56.32 | hrw | hi Pavel |
| 14:57.50 | pavelm | Is there 2.6.21 version of openmoko patches? |
| 14:57.57 | pavelm | (I mean openmoko kernel patches?) |
| 14:58.07 | hrw | not yet |
| 14:58.20 | pavelm | Is there latest version of patches somewhere so I could help? |
| 14:58.22 | hrw | Harald is too busy with other stuff |
| 14:58.28 | hrw | pavelm: subversion repo |
| 14:58.51 | pavelm | I thought Ben had newer version than that...? |
| 14:59.01 | hrw | pavelm: you can contact coreteam as additional kernel hacker probably |
| 15:00.16 | *** part/#openmoko stuhood (n=stuhood@hc6527597.dhcp.vt.edu) |
| 15:00.20 | pavelm | are there any news on GPS front/phase1 testing software? |
| 15:00.34 | hrw | no gps infos |
| 15:00.53 | hrw | pavelm: and software you can build by yourself |
| 15:00.54 | SpeedEvil | Someone popped up and said that the tomtom has the same chip, and they've straced it. |
| 15:01.05 | SpeedEvil | I diddn't see any further results. |
| 15:01.46 | *** join/#openmoko ewanm89 (n=ewanm89@host81-159-108-142.range81-159.btcentralplus.com) |
| 15:01.53 | pavelm | hrw: I'll cheat and get image from buildhost. |
| 15:02.01 | pavelm | speed: tomtoms are running linux? |
| 15:02.04 | SpeedEvil | Twas 'hopscotch' |
| 15:02.08 | SpeedEvil | yes, tomtoms run linux |
| 15:02.44 | hrw | pavelm: ;) |
| 15:02.59 | *** join/#openmoko PBeck (n=PBeck@HSI-KBW-091-089-102-236.hsi2.kabelbw.de) |
| 15:03.44 | pavelm | hopscotch, are you around? |
| 15:03.52 | SpeedEvil | [S][Hh]e diddn't make furthger comment. |
| 15:04.01 | *** join/#openmoko zwnj (n=behnam@213.207.210.231) |
| 15:04.02 | SpeedEvil | other than that it was 1.2M, and they were going for a haircut. |
| 15:04.10 | SpeedEvil | this was a couple of days ago. |
| 15:04.29 | stefan_schmidt | SpeedEvil: And Hopscotch don't have long hairs. |
| 15:04.41 | stefan_schmidt | At least not at the time I saw him last. ;) |
| 15:05.08 | Rakshasa | Any news of hairdressers gone berserk in the media lately? |
| 15:05.10 | hrw | garmin also run linux |
| 15:05.20 | SpeedEvil | Alas, not my GPS12. |
| 15:05.26 | SpeedEvil | Though it does have a 386ex in tehre. |
| 15:06.44 | pavelm | I found some notes on the web, seems like hopscotch is he (Christian Daniel) |
| 15:07.34 | SpeedEvil | Oh - the Global Locate website has interesting performance results on their chipsets. |
| 15:07.34 | stefan_schmidt | pavelm: Yes. One of the OpenTom hackers |
| 15:08.07 | SpeedEvil | As in locks inside metal filing cabinets, when normal GPSs wouldn't get a lock on top of it. |
| 15:08.15 | *** join/#openmoko oelewapperke (n=oelewapp@85-158-215-1.powered-by.benesol.be) |
| 15:08.45 | pavelm | speed: Do you have url? |
| 15:09.03 | *** join/#openmoko madwoota (n=mad@woota.net) |
| 15:09.54 | pavelm | heh, linux in GPSes... I guess I should get a real GPS, not fortuna bluetooth beast. |
| 15:10.11 | pavelm | ...hmm, I guess I have one. It is called openmoko and it runs X. Ok, never minds. |
| 15:10.33 | SpeedEvil | Well, it might be a GPS, it might be a warp drive. Till you get the drivers, you can't really tell. |
| 15:13.33 | *** join/#openmoko ewanm89_ (n=ewanm89@host86-153-88-13.range86-153.btcentralplus.com) |
| 15:21.52 | *** join/#openmoko LeRrA (n=lerra@h-89-233-202-71.wholesale.rp80.se) |
| 15:22.55 | thomasg_ | somebody here already got his p1? |
| 15:23.05 | LeRrA | q |
| 15:23.06 | LeRrA | ops |
| 15:23.37 | *** join/#openmoko ewanm89 (n=ewanm89@host86-153-88-13.range86-153.btcentralplus.com) |
| 15:25.18 | _minime | counter |
| 15:25.18 | aloril | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: 2 weeks, 3 days 08:34:41 (17.357 +-3.5 days) (1032;184) |
| 15:27.01 | thomasg_ | _minime, http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-April/000012.html |
| 15:28.44 | Cyphi^ | Hi guysa |
| 15:30.07 | *** join/#openmoko hobby (n=hobby@F91e3.f.strato-dslnet.de) |
| 15:31.33 | *** join/#openmoko synkro (n=synkoAFK@81.210.249.2) |
| 15:32.45 | _minime | thomasg_, thx ;) |
| 15:37.18 | *** join/#openmoko kW_ (n=kwkw@ip-58-28-133-90.ubs-dsl.xnet.co.nz) |
| 15:38.49 | thomasg_ | somebody should tell the counter-bot this link :) |
| 15:40.03 | thomasg_ | I'd really like to see a vid of the neo in action. |
| 15:40.43 | TRIsoft | Buy the Matrix-DVD set :D |
| 15:40.53 | TRIsoft | j/k, gtg cu |
| 15:41.01 | SpeedEvil | thomasg_: that's not actually contradicting the counter. |
| 15:41.26 | *** join/#openmoko greentux (n=lemke@Z7dc8.z.pppool.de) |
| 15:41.31 | Cyphi^ | Hey guys |
| 15:41.54 | SpeedEvil | If the may 10 date works out well, then it's barely possible that they may ship within the end of the counter limit for the first batch. |
| 15:43.11 | thomasg_ | the problem is, that I have to buy a new mobile the next time. so I'd like to know if the neo p1 will be fast enough to be my primary phone. than I could order a cheap device from my provider |
| 15:43.28 | SpeedEvil | What do you mean by fast enough? |
| 15:43.39 | SpeedEvil | Arriving soon? |
| 15:43.43 | thomasg_ | no |
| 15:43.50 | thomasg_ | the speed of the device |
| 15:43.59 | SpeedEvil | You're looking at around a pentium 100 or so. |
| 15:44.02 | SpeedEvil | Maybe 133 |
| 15:44.09 | XorA | thomasg_: get a cheapo nokia 1100 to tide you over |
| 15:44.26 | LarstiQ | or just go phoneless for a while, worked for me :) |
| 15:45.21 | thomasg_ | SpeedEvil, that comparison is useless for me. I heard that the neo is relatively slow at moment. especially the dialer. but it is important for me that it is fast enough |
| 15:45.30 | thomasg_ | LarstiQ, phoneless is not possible :) |
| 15:45.36 | SpeedEvil | The dialer is a bug. |
| 15:45.44 | SpeedEvil | It's not inherent. |
| 15:45.48 | SpeedEvil | The calculation is fast. |
| 15:45.50 | SpeedEvil | err |
| 15:45.52 | SpeedEvil | calculator. |
| 15:46.35 | thomasg_ | SpeedEvil, good to hear! |
| 15:46.36 | SpeedEvil | Most of the effort AIUI is going to getting hardware out the door. |
| 15:46.54 | SpeedEvil | Rahter than polishing mostly-working stuff. |
| 15:47.14 | SpeedEvil | Basically. the processor in it is quite fast enough for any practical phone use. |
| 15:47.21 | thomasg_ | I need my cellphone for work and I have to do much calls every day. so the speed is really important for me |
| 15:47.29 | SpeedEvil | It just can't quite do fullscreen video. |
| 15:47.31 | LarstiQ | thomasg_: I managed to live without one for 2 months, even got to parties without the directions up front :) |
| 15:47.37 | SpeedEvil | (but it does at half resolution) |
| 15:47.43 | LarstiQ | aha |
| 15:48.02 | thomasg_ | LarstiQ, I had my first mobile at the age of 17 :) |
| 15:48.43 | thomasg_ | but now I need it for work, so living without it is really not possible ^^ |
| 15:49.41 | hrw | cu |
| 15:52.11 | abraxa_ | thomasg_: Not trying to keep you from getting the Neo so soon, though I'd like to point out that depending on a alpha state software for day-to-day tasks might not be the smartest thing to do - though it would of course be useful for finding bugs... |
| 15:53.05 | *** join/#openmoko kokaa (n=delfin_m@45.Red-88-16-3.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) |
| 15:53.20 | *** part/#openmoko kokaa (n=delfin_m@45.Red-88-16-3.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) |
| 15:54.58 | Rakshasa | abraxa_: I've been doing my programming job on e17 for years already, and it's still considered alpha XD |
| 15:55.34 | thomasg_ | Rakshasa, I did the german translation for e17 and am use for about a year. its alpha, but I love it :) |
| 15:56.04 | *** join/#openmoko unmadindu (n=sayamind@gnu-india/admin/unmadindu) |
| 15:56.15 | *** join/#openmoko zwnj (n=behnam@213.207.210.231) |
| 15:56.35 | thomasg_ | abraxa_, of course I know that its alpha software mostly. the only thing I want is a stable phone function (basic). I also won't use it as my only phone (have 4 sim cards currently), but my decision for buying a new phone is depending on the neo :) |
| 15:56.59 | Rakshasa | thomasg_: Onne can't but love it. ^^ |
| 15:57.18 | abraxa_ | thomasg_: That's quite alright, just wanted to point that out |
| 15:57.44 | thomasg_ | abraxa_, yes, thanks. my fear was, that the processor of the neo simpliy is too slow for the apps |
| 15:58.51 | abraxa_ | thomasg_: I, too, am curious about the performance - even if I have no worries about the main apps running slow |
| 15:59.01 | thomasg_ | the reason why I would by the neo is also, that I want to play around, test, ... but I wouldnt spend 350$ for a device I couldnt really use. but it seems that p1 is ready to get bought by me :) |
| 15:59.42 | thomasg_ | abraxa_, one of my current devices is a HTC Universe with vga and win mobile 5. the dialing software here is really damn slow and not usable for my daily needs. |
| 16:00.07 | *** join/#openmoko helb (n=helb@84.244.90.159) |
| 16:00.35 | abraxa_ | thomasg_: ...but since OpenMoko has a lot more to lose you can bet that this won't happen ;) |
| 16:01.00 | thomasg_ | hehe |
| 16:01.44 | thomasg_ | I'd really like to support FIC, and I'm glad that there is (will be) a complete open source phone platform. so if the neo is fast enough for me, I WILL support FIC :) |
| 16:03.05 | nibbler_de | i wonder... why 4 sims? |
| 16:03.08 | thomasg_ | I also can imagine what will be possible with this device in near future. for a power-user like me I'll be perfect probably. |
| 16:03.20 | SuN | As long as it has a proper dbus implementation, it should be ok. Also, it'd be nice if they used Motorola's trick of integrating the dialer into the always visible main screen, which means it's already resident so it starts up instantly. |
| 16:03.52 | thomasg_ | nibbler_de, 2 phones, 1 htc universe (for doing my work), 1 hsdpa pcmcia card |
| 16:04.09 | guaqua | for me dialer is not a bunch of numbers |
| 16:04.12 | nibbler_de | thomasg_: why two phones additionally to the htc universe? |
| 16:04.32 | thomasg_ | nibbler_de, for me the universe isnt really a phone. more a big pda or mini notebook |
| 16:04.33 | guaqua | i've probably used the numbers to pick the number once in the last 2 years |
| 16:05.08 | nibbler_de | yeah - that's why i got a 9500 in favour of the htc universe though it has no umts |
| 16:05.56 | nibbler_de | but still i wonder, why two phones? :) |
| 16:06.21 | SuN | I agree, a decent phonebook implementation is probably more important. |
| 16:06.50 | thomasg_ | nibbler_de, before a year there was a decision for me: get a 9300i or not. the lack of a vibration function let me decide against the 9300i. |
| 16:07.00 | thomasg_ | nibbler_de, 1 private, 1 work |
| 16:07.10 | guaqua | 5 most called in the phonebook, last 5 called |
| 16:07.17 | *** join/#openmoko wooKieface (n=benjamin@x1-6-00-03-2f-29-99-b9.k957.webspeed.dk) |
| 16:07.19 | guaqua | so you don't actually have to browse, but can click |
| 16:07.22 | SuN | Lack of a vibrator was indeed a pretty weird marketing decision, heh. |
| 16:07.28 | thomasg_ | well, I don't really use the private phone (call forwarding), but I have it :) |
| 16:08.08 | guaqua | no vibra in neo? |
| 16:08.11 | thomasg_ | guaqua, I also dont use the keypad on my current phone, because it has voice recognition (great!) |
| 16:08.15 | nibbler_de | SuN: the haptics of the phonebook should be like having a large list (almost full screen) and being able to scroll through the phonebook with a speed that corellates with the distance of your fingertip to the middle of the screen |
| 16:08.24 | guaqua | voice recognition...ewwww |
| 16:08.39 | thomasg_ | guaqua, it works really good here |
| 16:08.48 | thomasg_ | really fast, too |
| 16:08.50 | nibbler_de | SuN: the more to the top, the faster upwards and vice versa for down. |
| 16:09.01 | guaqua | i find voice recognition clumsy |
| 16:09.31 | SuN | Makes sense, I guess. Though linear behaviour should be at least an option, because exponential scrolling behaviour is not logical for everyone. |
| 16:09.44 | thomasg_ | the new nokia voice recognition is really great, because it really recognizes voice (so you dont have to save the voice for each contact) |
| 16:09.47 | *** join/#openmoko Virtuall (n=virtuall@87.110.198.224) |
| 16:10.00 | SuN | Though, an alphabetic keypad like Motorola has would work pretty well also. |
| 16:10.16 | SuN | But one obviously doesn't have to exclude the other. |
| 16:11.25 | *** join/#openmoko calvin_ (i=calvin@nat/novell/x-2912c4382eb453aa) |
| 16:13.04 | abraxa_ | guaqua: The Neo will have a vibrator and it's actually quite cute to look at :) |
| 16:13.13 | guaqua | abraxa_: okay :) |
| 16:13.18 | nibbler_de | thomasg_: i was just curious because i'm carrying arround 3-4 phones (recently two of them being satphones) and didn't expect other people to be that insane ;) |
| 16:13.51 | thomasg_ | ^^ |
| 16:13.55 | nibbler_de | abraxa_: will the vibrator also be used to give a feedback on "pressed" keys in the ui? |
| 16:14.09 | abraxa_ | nibbler_de: Isn't that great? The government won't ever have troubles finding out where you are ;) |
| 16:14.20 | thomasg_ | nibbler_de, in the neo ALL could be possible :) |
| 16:14.22 | abraxa_ | nibbler_de: No clue |
| 16:14.32 | thomasg_ | it just needs a person to develop the feature |
| 16:14.56 | *** join/#openmoko zwnj (n=behnam@213.207.210.231) |
| 16:15.35 | nibbler_de | abraxa_: not only the government. with thuraya nearly anybody can - have a look at http://www.shoghi.co.in/thuraya_monitoring_decoding_system.html |
| 16:15.55 | *** join/#openmoko towlie2high (n=towlie2h@natpool21.csumb.edu) |
| 16:16.58 | *** join/#openmoko atla (n=atla@p3EE3E78A.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 16:17.18 | abraxa_ | nibbler_de: I'm not too familiar with the systems/bands mentioned there - does that system monitor GSM messages or how does it work? |
| 16:17.32 | nibbler_de | abraxa_: it monitors the thuraya satellite system |
| 16:17.57 | thomasg_ | btw. nibbler_de, do you work for a carrier or why the hell you have 4 cellphones? :) |
| 16:18.01 | abraxa_ | nibbler_de: Ah... so no need to be concerned as a GSM-only user then |
| 16:18.12 | *** part/#openmoko drWyrM (i=c88e3026@gateway/web/cgi-irc/ircatwork.com/x-7802d7c013a6bd3c) |
| 16:18.17 | nibbler_de | abraxa_: it provides exact locations of every single phone in the system |
| 16:18.37 | nibbler_de | abraxa_: uhm - no - not more concerned than a gsm user should normally be ;) |
| 16:20.44 | abraxa_ | nibbler_de: Yeah... I was demonstrating in Frankfurt two weeks ago so I am quite concerned already ;x |
| 16:21.01 | nibbler_de | thomasg_: not really. i'm just a freak. one phone for "free" inbound via landline (the old o2 diversion trick), one phone for fax/ssh/calendar/etc (being currently split to E70 and 9500 due to the lack of inbound fax support for S60 *grrr*), one satellite phone for receiving network monitoring messages. |
| 16:21.37 | nibbler_de | thomasg_: my desk: http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger2/6728/4051/1600/z/528859/image-upload-5-796520.jpg |
| 16:21.54 | *** join/#openmoko madewokherd (n=urk@VRP5000.rhbd.psu.edu) |
| 16:22.48 | thomasg_ | oh my god! ^^ |
| 16:23.08 | thomasg_ | but nice collection |
| 16:23.14 | thomasg_ | and the same keyboard is also on my desk |
| 16:23.22 | nibbler_de | it's about 10% of the collection :) |
| 16:23.28 | *** join/#openmoko Magon (n=Magon@213.155.227.226) |
| 16:23.31 | thomasg_ | or not the same, but a similar one |
| 16:23.50 | nibbler_de | i also thought about having all four networks in my pocket but skipped that idea https://nibbler.de/all-nets.jpg |
| 16:24.17 | thomasg_ | hehe |
| 16:25.02 | *** join/#openmoko Rio79 (n=JAyRULE@ip67-155-210-146.z210-155-67.customer.algx.net) |
| 16:25.10 | thomasg_ | my collection is not so impressive, but my devices are more extraordinary :) |
| 16:25.26 | nibbler_de | --verbose ;) |
| 16:25.31 | SpeedEvil | I wish I could find my prototype laptop power unit. |
| 16:25.48 | SpeedEvil | A small model aircraft engine fitted in a laptop power bay. |
| 16:25.49 | thomasg_ | siemens sx-1 (sold last month, but a really cool device), nokia 7710 (do not know anybody who has this device), mda pro/htc universe |
| 16:26.05 | thomasg_ | SpeedEvil, lol |
| 16:26.09 | SpeedEvil | It actually did work, but it was rather noisy. |
| 16:26.56 | thomasg_ | methane powered? |
| 16:26.56 | SpeedEvil | No. |
| 16:26.56 | SpeedEvil | Glow fuel. |
| 16:26.57 | SpeedEvil | (methanol, nitromethane, castor oil) |
| 16:27.04 | SpeedEvil | The problem was the oil output, in addition to the noise. |
| 16:27.09 | thomasg_ | hehe |
| 16:27.31 | nibbler_de | thomasg_: that's not extraordinary ;) extraordinary would be a sony ericsson "SE 123" ;-) |
| 16:27.50 | thomasg_ | hehe |
| 16:28.05 | thomasg_ | well ok, but every se was sold more often than the 7710 ;) |
| 16:28.18 | thomasg_ | the 7710 is very nice, but incredibly slow. |
| 16:28.30 | guaqua | what's 7710 like? |
| 16:28.34 | thomasg_ | the neo :) |
| 16:28.51 | thomasg_ | only touchscreen (640x320), relatively big |
| 16:29.11 | guaqua | haven't seen it |
| 16:29.32 | nibbler_de | not the SE123 ;) |
| 16:30.00 | thomasg_ | http://www.mobiletracker.net/archives/2004/10/01/nokia_7710_deta.php look here |
| 16:30.44 | guaqua | looks nice |
| 16:31.03 | thomasg_ | the 7710 has 3 main problems: lack of software (nokia/symbian series90), very slow (hardware and software), lack of connectivity (edge only). I'm sure the neo will do all things better (at least with p1+) |
| 16:31.15 | nibbler_de | i know the 7710 |
| 16:31.31 | guaqua | neo has a connectivity limit too... |
| 16:31.43 | nibbler_de | the first one. |
| 16:32.03 | thomasg_ | guaqua, yes, thats a bit bothering. but in p1+ there will be wlan what is a beginning. |
| 16:32.12 | *** join/#openmoko clue (n=clue@224.245.62.81.cust.bluewin.ch) |
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| 16:47.27 | Moo^^ | hi. I just got openmoko booted up in qemu. what's the best way try to develop third party applications? can I run NFS etc. in qemu? |
| 16:47.31 | *** part/#openmoko Rio79 (n=JAyRULE@ip67-155-210-146.z210-155-67.customer.algx.net) |
| 16:50.28 | Hopscotch | hmmm... now i'm here... |
| 16:57.31 | SpeedEvil | Hopscotch: Did you upload that strace of the tomtom Hammerhead anywhere? |
| 16:58.12 | Hopscotch | nope, not yet |
| 16:58.25 | Hopscotch | i should do another one with the gps memory wiped first |
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| 17:07.11 | SpeedEvil | GPS memory wiped isn't actually vital. It's slightly handy - but even a normal start will tell us quite a lot. |
| 17:07.22 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=bob@p85.212.38.2.tisdip.tiscali.de) |
| 17:07.48 | SpeedEvil | the inputs, and the NMEA outputs - if there are any - or even just position and time are pretty much enough to get started with. |
| 17:08.32 | Hopscotch | nmea output is generated by the daemon |
| 17:08.40 | SpeedEvil | Yeah. |
| 17:09.04 | Hopscotch | the hammerhead is completly stupid - even channel switching (change of chipping sequence) is done from userpsace |
| 17:09.09 | SpeedEvil | I know. |
| 17:09.19 | Hopscotch | ;) |
| 17:09.23 | SpeedEvil | And I don't think it actually changes chipping sequence does it? |
| 17:09.30 | SpeedEvil | Doesn't it decode them all at once? |
| 17:09.47 | SpeedEvil | Though actually, logically it might want to pick 12 |
| 17:09.48 | Hopscotch | i really don't know |
| 17:09.59 | Hopscotch | but i saw more writing to the device than reading from it |
| 17:10.04 | SpeedEvil | (as there are 24 possibilities, but you can never see more than 12) |
| 17:10.21 | SpeedEvil | The chip uses massively parallel comparators internally. |
| 17:11.40 | Hopscotch | seems like you know much more about it than me :) |
| 17:13.28 | SpeedEvil | http://www.globallocate.com/SEMICONDUCTORS/SEMI_TECHNOLOGY_Frameset.htm |
| 17:14.20 | SpeedEvil | http://www.globallocate.com/SEMICONDUCTORS/Semi_Libr_Piece/IndoorGPSTechnology.pdf is interesting too. |
| 17:14.26 | buz | thomasg_: i think htc universal was about the first device to run openmoko outside fic's lab |
| 17:14.29 | SpeedEvil | GPS from inside a closed metal file cabinet. |
| 17:15.19 | buz | ~s/device/phone/ |
| 17:15.30 | *** join/#openmoko daniel_bergamini (n=danieber@216-107-194-166.static.gdt.cust.seg.NET) |
| 17:16.05 | *** join/#openmoko pavelm (n=pavel@gprs189-60.eurotel.cz) |
| 17:17.14 | Hopscotch | SpeedEvil: yeah, i have sirf2 here and sirf3 and hammerhead |
| 17:17.23 | Hopscotch | hammerhead is the only one to get a lock inside the flat |
| 17:17.46 | thomasg_ | buz, somehow the universe is a cool device, but win mobile is very bothering and its more a notebook than a cellphone |
| 17:17.56 | buz | i think its too big |
| 17:17.59 | thomasg_ | definately |
| 17:18.05 | buz | i'd love to get a vga tytn with openmoko ;) |
| 17:18.07 | SpeedEvil | Hopscotch: :) |
| 17:18.17 | thomasg_ | but for the things I have to use it the size doesnt matter |
| 17:18.34 | buz | i wonder when the nokia e90 will arrive |
| 17:18.51 | thomasg_ | what I like about the universe is the endless standbytime. its about a week (awsome!) |
| 17:18.57 | SpeedEvil | A neo1974, with a 4" screen and wifi and same other features would be nice. |
| 17:19.14 | buz | gimme qwerty in that big a device |
| 17:19.17 | thomasg_ | SpeedEvil, eek! :) 2,8" is big enough |
| 17:19.20 | SpeedEvil | I'm unsure. |
| 17:19.36 | buz | if you have me carry around a 4" screen i want qwerty |
| 17:19.37 | SpeedEvil | A keyboard takes a lot away from a screen. |
| 17:19.40 | thomasg_ | buz, the e90 should be available in may. its very cool, too. |
| 17:19.45 | buz | SpeedEvil: slide or clamshell |
| 17:19.51 | SpeedEvil | If you make it a tablet-like device that could work. |
| 17:19.53 | high-rez | i want qwerty regardless :) |
| 17:19.54 | Hopscotch | SpeedEvil: http://www.maintech.de/download/hammerhead-strace.log |
| 17:20.04 | buz | the universal in essence a winmobile tablet |
| 17:20.15 | SpeedEvil | Hopscotch: Thanks. |
| 17:20.17 | thomasg_ | buz / SpeedEvil HTC has a device with 4" screen (800x480 afaik!) and clip-keyboard |
| 17:20.26 | buz | i think it's 5" |
| 17:20.30 | buz | and its frigging huge |
| 17:20.45 | thomasg_ | yeah, huge is the word :) |
| 17:20.49 | thomasg_ | and damn expensive |
| 17:20.51 | SpeedEvil | The problem I have with HTCs that approach that is that they are getting damn near the weight of my laptop. |
| 17:20.56 | *** join/#openmoko ewanm89_ (n=ewanm89@host81-151-190-79.range81-151.btcentralplus.com) |
| 17:20.56 | buz | nfw i would buy that |
| 17:21.03 | buz | now as for a clamshell neo |
| 17:21.04 | SpeedEvil | At 1.1Kg, and 8 hour battery life, the laptop may often win. |
| 17:21.39 | guaqua | what laptop has 8 hour battery ligfe? |
| 17:21.39 | buz | installing linux likely would be easier, too |
| 17:21.39 | buz | guaqua: some panasonics |
| 17:21.39 | thomasg_ | SpeedEvil, the sony vaio g1 runs 6 to 11 hours at 0,9 to 1,1 kg |
| 17:21.43 | SpeedEvil | guaqua: Toshiba 3110CT, re-celled with modern cells. |
| 17:21.44 | buz | how about the vaio umpc |
| 17:21.50 | thomasg_ | guaqua, vaio g1 with big battery (1,1 kg) about 11,5 hour |
| 17:21.59 | guaqua | that's crazy |
| 17:22.11 | buz | not that i ever needed more than 1h |
| 17:22.23 | thomasg_ | the notebook is fantastic. but its lacking a trackpoint, so I wont buy it :) |
| 17:22.46 | buz | but i dread the damn ati chip |
| 17:22.56 | thomasg_ | buz: the currently available UMPCs are about 2-4 hours |
| 17:23.20 | buz | ah well if sucks too bad i will sell it on ebay, i got it enough under retail to come out ahead ;) |
| 17:23.29 | thomasg_ | buz, I have a x24 at moment, with ati radeon 7000. with open source drivers it rocks :) |
| 17:23.34 | buz | well, the x1400 doesnt have opensource drives |
| 17:23.36 | buz | drivers |
| 17:23.52 | buz | i would have much preferred intel integrated but lenovo doesnt give discount on those |
| 17:23.55 | thomasg_ | thats true. or at least no os drivers with glx support |
| 17:24.13 | guaqua | i've been thinking about getting the ibm x60 |
| 17:24.15 | buz | yeah i dont really care just HOW the drivers do their job |
| 17:24.17 | buz | guaqua: dont |
| 17:24.29 | guaqua | ? :< |
| 17:24.32 | buz | its a fundamentally bad deal with that lousy xga display |
| 17:24.35 | thomasg_ | guaqua, if you think about getting a x60 you definiately should look at the sony vaio g1. |
| 17:24.49 | buz | and the panasonic y5 |
| 17:24.53 | buz | it's pricey but omg |
| 17:25.08 | guaqua | well how about the new hp consumer devices, 12 inch touchscreen? |
| 17:25.08 | thomasg_ | the g1 is probably the best subnotebook I've ever seen |
| 17:25.30 | buz | the panasonic y5 is a 14" 1400x1050 core duo job at 1.5kg with 8h battery |
| 17:25.33 | thomasg_ | guaqua, hp business devices are ok, but the pavillon (consumer) series isnt really good |
| 17:25.42 | buz | hp? |
| 17:25.48 | buz | hp claims you void warranty by using linux |
| 17:25.49 | guaqua | the pavilions are dirt cheap, even in finland |
| 17:25.49 | thomasg_ | hewlett packard |
| 17:25.53 | thomasg_ | ah :) |
| 17:26.08 | buz | you must reinstall XP to get them to repair their crap |
| 17:26.13 | guaqua | :/ |
| 17:26.15 | guaqua | bad bad |
| 17:26.23 | guaqua | no such experience from sony? |
| 17:26.25 | buz | at least thats what i read in different places |
| 17:26.34 | buz | you mean sony has something like support? |
| 17:26.39 | guaqua | :D |
| 17:26.39 | thomasg_ | ^^ |
| 17:26.55 | buz | they sure as hell dont really support my p900 |
| 17:27.03 | thomasg_ | I don't like sony notebooks for normal, too, but the G1 simply rocks |
| 17:27.04 | *** join/#openmoko zecke (n=ich@91.64.161.147) |
| 17:27.14 | Hopscotch | SpeedEvil: 0xff, 0xfe, 0xfd and 0xfc seem to be the framing characters |
| 17:27.18 | thomasg_ | buz, ok, theres a difference: sony is not SE |
| 17:27.25 | buz | yeah sony is worse |
| 17:27.30 | buz | it's the rootkit company |
| 17:27.33 | thomasg_ | ^^ |
| 17:27.55 | buz | as far as i can tell, SE at least didnt try to hack my machine |
| 17:28.19 | buz | well i hope the rumour of a completely rewritten ATI linux driver are true |
| 17:28.32 | SpeedEvil | Hopscotch: Alas, no hardware :( |
| 17:28.48 | SpeedEvil | http://www.globallocate.com/PRESS/Press_Releases/PR_GL_SuesSiRF.htm has potentially interesting patent numbers. |
| 17:29.49 | guaqua | does anyone know about lg laptops? |
| 17:30.01 | guaqua | there's Z1 express |
| 17:30.35 | buz | lg? |
| 17:30.36 | buz | i dont think i've ever seen laptops by them |
| 17:30.49 | Hopscotch | SpeedEvil: hmmm... hardware... tomtom one V2 is here as well as phase0-phone... |
| 17:30.50 | buz | around here it's tons of acer, hp and toshiba |
| 17:30.57 | thomasg_ | well, LG is the same crap as HP Pavillon, FSC Amilo, BenQ, Toshiba, ... |
| 17:31.12 | SpeedEvil | Hopscotch: Yeah - I was just wishing. |
| 17:31.15 | buz | thomasg_: i'm quite satisfied with my toshiba portege |
| 17:31.23 | *** join/#openmoko greentux (n=lemke@pd956a57b.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 17:31.24 | buz | but then again, thats way in the business class |
| 17:31.27 | guaqua | well what about macbooks then? |
| 17:31.28 | Hopscotch | thomasg_: you forgot asus crap headquarters |
| 17:31.34 | SpeedEvil | What might be interesting would be some way to connect tty*s on the neo, and the tomtom |
| 17:31.36 | buz | and usually priced far beyond reason |
| 17:31.57 | thomasg_ | Hopscotch, I'm not sure about asus. all asus notebooks I know are crap, but I heard, that they have some good ones. dont really know. |
| 17:31.57 | buz | guaqua: friend of mine bought a bunch for his family |
| 17:32.03 | SpeedEvil | So you can get positions from the neo hardware, without writing stuff. |
| 17:32.08 | buz | out of 5, 4 had to be rma'd in the first 8 months |
| 17:32.24 | Hopscotch | that needs a hack to the tomtom kernel |
| 17:32.24 | guaqua | buz: that's what i've heard too... |
| 17:32.38 | SpeedEvil | Oh well. |
| 17:32.45 | buz | i have two ibooks here, one of them nearly died 1 week before warranty was over |
| 17:32.54 | buz | but since it was rmad it seems to work |
| 17:33.04 | guaqua | ibook is whole another hardware though |
| 17:33.07 | buz | personally, i think the macbooks are way too cheaply built |
| 17:33.07 | Hopscotch | SpeedEvil: because i bet that the gltt application won't like failing ioctls on a named pipe... |
| 17:34.10 | SpeedEvil | That's true. |
| 17:34.10 | buz | and macbook pro is way overpriced |
| 17:34.10 | thomasg_ | buz: I worked in the IT support at the soccer worldcup 2006. toshiba was one of the main sponsors, so guess what notebooks we had :) |
| 17:34.11 | buz | thomasg_: well that probably were satellites? |
| 17:34.11 | thomasg_ | imho the toshiba porteges arent worth its money. |
| 17:34.11 | buz | thomasg_: mine was 40% under retail |
| 17:34.12 | buz | 1000EUR was a really decent deal for it |
| 17:34.12 | thomasg_ | they are not really bad, but not worth its money |
| 17:34.12 | pavelm | Hello, Hopscotch... and thanks for the logs. |
| 17:34.13 | SpeedEvil | Hopscotch: I thought the tomtom could take USB memory sticks for reading stuff - hence a USB serial adaptor. |
| 17:34.14 | thomasg_ | what I like about it is, that they all had trackpoints and touchpads :) |
| 17:34.19 | buz | thomasg_: 1400x1050 tablet for 1000EUR is worth the money |
| 17:34.27 | buz | well except for the fact that tablet is really useles |
| 17:34.32 | buz | prpplague: i cant type on those |
| 17:34.34 | pavelm | Speedevil: Would it be "politically correct" to create GPS reverse engineering page in openmoko wiki? |
| 17:34.37 | Hopscotch | SpeedEvil: nope, the mp3-player one has a built-in harddrive |
| 17:34.39 | thomasg_ | buz, thats ok, but for normal they are much more expensive, arent they? |
| 17:34.39 | buz | that's just toooo f*** small |
| 17:34.49 | SpeedEvil | pavelm: I see no reason why not. |
| 17:34.49 | Hopscotch | pavelm: i guess so |
| 17:34.50 | thomasg_ | prpplague, the libretto is really cool :) |
| 17:34.50 | buz | thomasg_: yeah more like >1500EUR |
| 17:35.22 | buz | dunno why it was suddenly that cheap, after that it was back at 1400EUR |
| 17:35.25 | prpplague | yea, i have two, one that is original, another that i hacked in a sa-1110 board inside |
| 17:35.48 | SpeedEvil | Unfortunately, I've got no time - as I have to deal with the fallout from my car accident (nobody injured, but still really annoying) |
| 17:35.51 | guaqua | is xga the problem with ibm x60 or what? |
| 17:35.59 | SpeedEvil | WAve. |
| 17:36.01 | SpeedEvil | Good luck! |
| 17:36.04 | Hopscotch | SpeedEvil: cu :) |
| 17:36.04 | buz | guaqua: i think so, i wouldnt pay 1500EUR for a XGA laptop |
| 17:36.04 | pavelm | Bye, speed |
| 17:36.09 | buz | YMMV of course |
| 17:36.28 | guaqua | buz: with a touchscreen and the fact that it's an ibm? |
| 17:36.33 | thomasg_ | well, I was a bit disappointed, because I expected the toshibas to be better. maybe they will work long without problems, but the workmanship wasnt as good as I expected |
| 17:36.39 | buz | the x60 has no touchscreen |
| 17:36.44 | guaqua | i'm putting a little hope on the fact that it might be well designed |
| 17:36.53 | guaqua | argh... |
| 17:36.54 | buz | well mechanically it seems solid |
| 17:37.05 | buz | but for the price you can get the toshiba with 1400*1050 screen |
| 17:37.16 | buz | or you could buy mine ;) |
| 17:37.18 | thomasg_ | buz: maybe I'm spoiled (thinkpad x24) :) |
| 17:37.34 | guaqua | what toshiba model is that, buz? |
| 17:37.40 | buz | guaqua: portege m200 |
| 17:37.52 | buz | still has about 1,5year warranty |
| 17:38.08 | *** join/#openmoko stuhood (n=stuhood@hc6527597.dhcp.vt.edu) |
| 17:38.37 | prpplague | any word if the FIC guys have decided on ar6k chipset yet? |
| 17:38.52 | thomasg_ | buz: maybe the m200 is better than the other ones. we had 15" porteges |
| 17:39.23 | mjr | Sean said on Wednesday that they're almost for sure going to have AR6K wifi in their "next product" |
| 17:39.36 | buz | thomasg_: it's widely considered to be one of the best tablets there is |
| 17:39.37 | thomasg_ | mjr: that is good news |
| 17:39.40 | *** join/#openmoko helb (n=helb@84.244.90.159) |
| 17:39.42 | mjr | that sounds somewhat decided |
| 17:40.30 | mjr | not completely, but somewhat |
| 17:40.30 | tigert | "almost for sure" :) |
| 17:40.31 | thomasg_ | if there will be EDGE, too, I'd be really happy :) |
| 17:40.31 | buz | thomasg_: there once was a rumour about faster gsm |
| 17:40.31 | buz | but that died off quickly |
| 17:40.35 | tigert | last.fm works nicely |
| 17:40.44 | *** join/#openmoko DukeOfURL (n=Michael_@vc7-1-39.dsl.netrack.net) |
| 17:40.45 | buz | that should work with edge, too |
| 17:40.51 | tigert | probably |
| 17:40.54 | thomasg_ | 3g is nice, but not really needed. edge would be enough |
| 17:40.55 | tigert | skype too |
| 17:41.05 | nibbler_de | thomasg_: has any other network than t-möbel deployed edge? |
| 17:41.13 | thomasg_ | no nibbler_de |
| 17:41.17 | nibbler_de | :( |
| 17:41.19 | thomasg_ | but vodafone will |
| 17:41.26 | pavelm | thomasg: 3g + HSDPA is 2mbit... good enough for big downloads. |
| 17:41.33 | tigert | ah, US? |
| 17:41.45 | tigert | the land of stoneage in mobile phones :) |
| 17:41.58 | thomasg_ | ericssons ceo is telling the poeple that they are invsting a hundred million euro into their networks, but I'm sure they wont get edge ;) |
| 17:42.03 | tigert | or, well, their own standards rather |
| 17:42.16 | thomasg_ | pavelm, 3,5g (umts+hsdpa) is cool, yes. but its damn expensive |
| 17:42.17 | koen | tigert: even gsm sucks in the US |
| 17:42.26 | tigert | koen: yeah |
| 17:42.27 | thomasg_ | not only the hardware, afaik you need a licence for hsdpa |
| 17:42.30 | tigert | the contracts suck even more |
| 17:42.39 | koen | tigert: I could see the reception jumping up and down with just having the phone lying on the table |
| 17:42.57 | pavelm | thomasg: Licence for hsdpa? They are selling hsdpa capable headsets for ~$400... with windows mobile and qwerty. |
| 17:43.04 | tigert | koen: remember those spams "booster antenna! speak on mobile phone wile on ELEVATORS! Unbelieveable!" |
| 17:43.08 | tigert | ? :) |
| 17:43.13 | tigert | while even |
| 17:43.18 | koen | yeah |
| 17:43.25 | pavelm | thomasg: So I do not expect it to be too bad. I am thinking about buying it. |
| 17:43.28 | tigert | I have never had a phonecall cut in an elevator |
| 17:43.30 | tigert | except in Boston |
| 17:43.41 | koen | it happens at the uni here |
| 17:43.54 | tigert | I guess it can happen in very bunker-like buildings of course |
| 17:43.55 | thomasg_ | pavelm, I'll buy the neo, too, thats for sure. but edge would be nice anyway :) |
| 17:43.57 | tigert | but generally not often |
| 17:43.58 | koen | but that's because the 4th floor has big signs "INDUCTION LOOP" plastered all over |
| 17:44.02 | tigert | :) |
| 17:44.16 | buz | at my uni, many buildings have no reception |
| 17:44.25 | buz | (except for swisscom, because they get to have in building antennas) |
| 17:44.26 | thomasg_ | buz: country? |
| 17:44.32 | buz | university of zurich |
| 17:44.35 | tigert | "phone might not work as expected when in proximity of particle accelerators" |
| 17:44.53 | pavelm | thomasg: I plan to teach openmoko to use EDGE modem from nearby nokia 6230 over bluetooth. |
| 17:44.55 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (i=foobar@dslb-084-057-179-155.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 17:45.07 | tigert | the MIT "stata center" building has no reception |
| 17:45.10 | tigert | but thats by design |
| 17:45.28 | tigert | so the lectures work much better :) |
| 17:45.59 | thomasg_ | buz: well, in switzerland there is not much competition in mobile communication business, is it? |
| 17:46.17 | koen | tigert: people wanted to do that over here |
| 17:46.31 | koen | tigert: till someone got a heart attack and they couldn't dial 112 |
| 17:46.50 | buz | thomasg_: well technically there's 3 networks and a bunch of MVNO but if you look at the pricing its more of cartel than comeptition |
| 17:46.51 | koen | wired phones being too far away and all |
| 17:47.10 | tigert | koen: right |
| 17:47.15 | tigert | koen: "go outside"? |
| 17:47.24 | thomasg_ | buz: yeah, thats a problem. the more and the bigger the competitors are, the better the net is :) |
| 17:47.32 | chreekat | my phone died in a parking-garage elevator in san francisco. i'm not hip with cell-phone lingo, but i think it was using GSM (the provider was T-Mobile) |
| 17:47.38 | buz | well there's orange which is backed by telecom france |
| 17:47.50 | buz | and sunrise which mostly is a teledanmark subsidiary |
| 17:48.10 | buz | (ironically, former swisscom ceo now is with tele danmark) |
| 17:48.46 | pavelm | Hopscotch: /var/run/gpspipe... that's talking NMEA? (Too lazy to check) |
| 17:49.18 | thomasg_ | chreekat, thats normal. if the base station is a few hundret meters away and it is not sending with much power you wont have radio reception under 3 feet of concrete |
| 17:49.19 | pavelm | ... could we just take binary from tomtom and run it on openmoko? |
| 17:49.27 | Hopscotch | pavelm: yes, that's where the navigation app picks up the nmea messages |
| 17:49.31 | buz | thomasg_: at least we finally have flatrate umts |
| 17:49.34 | thomasg_ | pavelm, maybe. |
| 17:49.42 | koen | pavelm: no, different ABI |
| 17:49.47 | thomasg_ | buz: SFr? |
| 17:50.06 | buz | thomasg_: in a weird deal: every day you use it, you pay 3.50CHF |
| 17:50.07 | Hopscotch | pavelm: should have a chance to work - after adding directories like /mnt/flash/... |
| 17:50.14 | buz | dont use it, dont pay |
| 17:50.20 | thomasg_ | thats cool! |
| 17:50.30 | Hopscotch | koen: different abi? |
| 17:50.34 | Hopscotch | eabi? |
| 17:50.46 | thomasg_ | well, its not so cool if you want to check mails only, but if you are using it intensively thats a good deal |
| 17:50.54 | pavelm | ...it would be nice to check that chip in tomtom and chip in openmoko are really compatible. |
| 17:51.01 | buz | well unfortunately you cant have it for prepay, only contracts |
| 17:51.13 | thomasg_ | pavelm, doesnt matter |
| 17:51.17 | Hopscotch | pavelm: there is only one hammerhead afaik |
| 17:51.31 | thomasg_ | tomtom offers its software for symbian devices which all have arm processors like the neo |
| 17:51.41 | koen | Hopscotch: companies tend to replace part while keeping the same name |
| 17:51.43 | thomasg_ | so thats definately no problem |
| 17:51.53 | SpeedEvil | It's just connected to a serial port. |
| 17:51.59 | thomasg_ | I guess the tomtom handhelds are mips or arm |
| 17:52.06 | SpeedEvil | And there is definitively only one actual chip - according to global locate. |
| 17:52.07 | Hopscotch | s3c2410 |
| 17:52.22 | koen | thomasg_: same CPU != same ABI |
| 17:52.52 | pavelm | koen: Well, if we are really desperate, we can just change ABI. |
| 17:52.52 | thomasg_ | koen, thats true, but maybe tomtom simply is offering its software for the neo community? |
| 17:53.00 | Hopscotch | ok, let me check external dependencies of gltt |
| 17:53.10 | thomasg_ | all I wanted to say is, that the tomtom software should be portable enough to run on the neo. |
| 17:53.36 | thomasg_ | maybe not the symbian or tomtom handheld version, but the software compiled for the neo |
| 17:54.03 | Hopscotch | tomtom go devices are pure linux systems |
| 17:54.13 | thomasg_ | Hopscotch, yes, thats true |
| 17:54.21 | Hopscotch | gltt is depending in libm, libc - that's it |
| 17:54.24 | koen | linux != linux |
| 17:54.26 | Hopscotch | -in + on |
| 17:54.35 | koen | to make it a bit simpler for all of you |
| 17:54.38 | thomasg_ | thats true, too. :) |
| 17:55.04 | thomasg_ | but like I said: it should be portable without (much) changes in the codebase |
| 17:55.21 | Hopscotch | koen: i was one of the tomtom kernel hackers (in charge of framebuffer driver, sound, etc...) |
| 17:55.29 | koen | Hopscotch: I know |
| 17:55.53 | koen | Hopscotch: but even kernel hackers seen to forget that linux on arm has like 6 different, incompatible ABIs |
| 17:56.32 | *** join/#openmoko madewokherd (n=urk@VRP5000.rhbd.psu.edu) |
| 17:57.12 | buz | Hopscotch: maybe you should convince tomtom to sell a neo version then ;) |
| 17:57.22 | buz | they seem open minded enough about linux |
| 17:58.06 | thomasg_ | buz: if there is no need of changes in the code, I see no reason why tomtom shouldnt sell its software for us |
| 17:58.18 | Hopscotch | nope, forget that one |
| 17:58.41 | Hopscotch | they're open minded as long as they have an obligation to a license or about 1000000 waiting customers |
| 17:59.02 | buz | well thats more than can be said about most companies |
| 17:59.14 | Hopscotch | true :) |
| 17:59.20 | thomasg_ | hehe |
| 17:59.38 | pavelm | (Hopscotch: I'll create "Hammerhead protocol" in wiki... with pointer to your trace. I hope that's ok?) |
| 17:59.52 | buz | personally i like the tomtom software but i think the devices are too expensive |
| 17:59.55 | Hopscotch | yes of course |
| 18:00.44 | Hopscotch | are you guys here later this evening? |
| 18:01.17 | Hopscotch | because girlfriend is asking for dinner - and i would try to run gltt on the neo after that |
| 18:01.27 | thomasg_ | buz: I use a tomtom go 510 every day, and I really like it. |
| 18:01.51 | thomasg_ | its not cheap, but its worth its money if you need if for work e.g. |
| 18:02.08 | Hopscotch | or better: if i put the gltt online - would anyone care to test it? |
| 18:02.18 | pavelm | Hopscotch: I'm going to do some swimming. |
| 18:02.38 | Hopscotch | should be faster :) |
| 18:02.54 | Hopscotch | pavelm: i had my session of sports for today :) |
| 18:04.02 | pavelm | Hopscotch: I went for outdoor swimming -- weather is really nice, but water is too cold. So heading indoors now. |
| 18:04.18 | *** join/#openmoko ruoso (n=ruoso@bl5-18-207.dsl.telepac.pt) |
| 18:04.28 | Hopscotch | :) |
| 18:04.51 | pavelm | How long is GPS sequence from sattelite? |
| 18:05.04 | SpeedEvil | Complex. |
| 18:05.27 | SpeedEvil | 1024 bit cycle psuedorandom code varying per-satellite repeated every millisecond. |
| 18:05.49 | pavelm | speed: but there are some data modulated on that, no? |
| 18:05.56 | SpeedEvil | On top of this at 50Hz is modulated (xor) data |
| 18:06.13 | SpeedEvil | Basically a 300 bit navigation message, that repeats one sixth of a second. |
| 18:06.17 | pavelm | speed: How long is that 50Hz modulated packet? |
| 18:06.29 | SpeedEvil | it's 50bps |
| 18:06.36 | pavelm | 37bytes, ok. |
| 18:07.03 | SpeedEvil | You probably need to look at wikipedia [[gps]] it's got signal info. |
| 18:07.15 | pavelm | are there some headers I could identify in 300bit navigation message? I guess I need wikipedia, yes. |
| 18:07.42 | SpeedEvil | I suspect that the hammerhead will not actually process the 50bps datastream at all. |
| 18:07.43 | pavelm | See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hammerhead_protocol |
| 18:07.58 | pavelm | speed: I certainly hope so. |
| 18:08.10 | pavelm | speed: If they do some processing, we have a problem. |
| 18:08.23 | SpeedEvil | Oh Yeah. |
| 18:09.48 | *** join/#openmoko Rac0r (n=Rac0r@p5081FF72.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 18:11.26 | SpeedEvil | 10 byte packets seem popular in both directions. |
| 18:12.59 | pavelm | Yep, but those 10 byte packets sent _to_ gps seem to have very little information in them |
| 18:13.42 | pavelm | ..where did you find that GPS information? Wikipedia article is rather long :-( |
| 18:13.53 | SpeedEvil | Basically memory. |
| 18:13.59 | SpeedEvil | Done a simple GPS design in the past. |
| 18:14.14 | pavelm | ...aha, GPS signals? |
| 18:14.29 | pavelm | Speed: wow, so you are the one who decodes it for us :^) |
| 18:14.30 | SpeedEvil | Err - that should be 6 second navigation messages, not 1/6th |
| 18:14.39 | *** join/#openmoko wooKieface (n=benjamin@x1-6-00-03-2f-29-99-b9.k957.webspeed.dk) |
| 18:14.44 | SpeedEvil | Unfortunately. |
| 18:14.59 | SpeedEvil | The decoder I did has almost nothing in common. |
| 18:15.27 | SpeedEvil | It was a _very_ simple one - basically using an 8 bit 100Mhz micro to generate chip sequences for all satellites. |
| 18:15.36 | SpeedEvil | And external simple summers. |
| 18:15.48 | SpeedEvil | very slow, very inaccurate, only plus very cheap (for the time) |
| 18:16.20 | SpeedEvil | And I just did the design, rather than actually got it working. |
| 18:17.03 | Elrond | Did anyone by now see any bits from the GL gps? |
| 18:17.21 | SpeedEvil | Elrond: I think everyone has (in the tomtom) |
| 18:17.45 | pavelm | Ok, I'll have to go... see you later. |
| 18:17.48 | SpeedEvil | 256 write(3, "\x80\x80\x80\x80\x80\x80\x80\x80\x80\x80\x80\x80\x80\x80\x80\x80 |
| 18:17.48 | SpeedEvil | ", 16) = 16 |
| 18:17.49 | SpeedEvil | 256 write(3, "\xff\x0c\xfd\xc0\x00\xfc\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00 |
| 18:17.49 | SpeedEvil | \x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00 |
| 18:17.49 | SpeedEvil | \x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00", 64) = 64 |
| 18:17.55 | SpeedEvil | Are teh init it looks like. |
| 18:18.02 | *** join/#openmoko Eludias (n=eludias@wingding.demon.nl) |
| 18:18.02 | SpeedEvil | do that, and it starts to talk. |
| 18:18.36 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Ahhh. Can you put the sequence in the wiki (unless it's already there)? |
| 18:18.50 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - I meant: Did anyone get bits from the GL in the neo? |
| 18:18.57 | SpeedEvil | Don't think so. |
| 18:19.08 | SpeedEvil | It's in the hardware:hammerhead page - the strace |
| 18:19.16 | *** join/#openmoko behdad (n=behdad@d198-166-17-174.abhsia.telus.net) |
| 18:19.34 | *** join/#openmoko atla (n=atla@p3EE3E78A.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 18:19.57 | Elrond | Ahh, great. |
| 18:20.30 | SpeedEvil | Ok. We know that the chip is 'massively parallel'. |
| 18:21.18 | pavelm | Ok, see you! |
| 18:21.23 | SpeedEvil | WAve. |
| 18:23.17 | SpeedEvil | Let's assume that there are 8-12 satellites in view at Hopscotch's location. |
| 18:23.54 | SpeedEvil | There is an interesting break in the 'read' size distribution. |
| 18:24.19 | Elrond | Okay, I'm too dumb. Can you give me the URL to the strace in the wiki? |
| 18:24.47 | *** join/#openmoko atla_ (n=atla@p3EE3CDF6.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 18:24.58 | SpeedEvil | There are 8 of length 464 or higher. |
| 18:25.00 | SpeedEvil | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hammerhead_protocol |
| 18:25.22 | Elrond | Ahh. :-) |
| 18:25.31 | SpeedEvil | If we assume that these are delay space readouts from the chip, for each satellite in view. |
| 18:26.49 | SpeedEvil | Then it might not be unreasonable to assume that these are 2 bit I/Q values for each entry in delay space. |
| 18:26.55 | *** join/#openmoko deepank (n=deepank@59.178.32.119) |
| 18:29.04 | Elrond | I/Q ? |
| 18:29.13 | SpeedEvil | Real and imaginary components. |
| 18:29.40 | SpeedEvil | Each GPS satellite broadcasts a unique 1024 bit 'chip' code. |
| 18:30.01 | SpeedEvil | this is then repeated forever, xor'd by the much slower modulations. |
| 18:30.30 | Elrond | Yeah, I know the signals mostly. |
| 18:30.32 | SpeedEvil | 50 repeats per data bit, and then 300 data bits per navigation message. |
| 18:31.27 | SpeedEvil | If you have an identical chip signal from your knowledge of the code, then you can construct a 2048 element table by multiplying over time the incoming signal with your own copy. |
| 18:31.52 | SpeedEvil | In ideal conditions, one or two of these will indicate signal. |
| 18:32.01 | SpeedEvil | the rest will just be noise. |
| 18:32.39 | SpeedEvil | Sorry - I'm not making much sense ATM. Horribly tired. |
| 18:33.35 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Hey, no problem :-) |
| 18:36.49 | Elrond | We should ask some of the P0 owners to send thes 80byte sequence to their gps. ;-) |
| 18:37.27 | SpeedEvil | that at least show that there really is something in there. |
| 18:38.16 | Elrond | Right. |
| 18:39.28 | *** join/#openmoko TimRiker (n=timr@216.49.181.128) |
| 18:40.58 | Elrond | Then putting a normal sirf3 next to the neo should get us the info, which sats the gl probably sees. ;) |
| 18:41.28 | prpplague | TimRiker: timmy! |
| 18:41.30 | SpeedEvil | Yep. |
| 18:41.40 | Elrond | (I think, sirf3 also gives some pseudoranges... need to check the docs.) |
| 18:41.43 | prpplague | TimRiker: how the heck are ya? |
| 18:42.36 | SpeedEvil | You don't really need pseudoranges that badly. |
| 18:42.45 | SpeedEvil | As you can derive them without too much hastle. |
| 18:43.14 | Elrond | You mean from "I know my coords, and from the ephemeris, I know where the sats are"? |
| 18:43.20 | prpplague | hehe |
| 18:43.23 | SpeedEvil | Basically, yes. |
| 18:48.01 | *** join/#openmoko Zoolooc (n=Zoolooc@p549531a9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 18:48.47 | *** join/#openmoko MagicFab (n=magicfab@ubuntu/member/magicfab) |
| 18:54.09 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Hammerhead_protocol]] [[Neo1973_Hardware]] [[Hardware:AGPS]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Category:Neo1973_Hardware]] [[Getting_Openmoko_working_on_host_with_Xoo]] [[Main_Page/pl]] |
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| 19:09.55 | *** join/#openmoko drWyrM (i=c8db8414@gateway/web/cgi-irc/ircatwork.com/x-63ed43c6ce07ae04) |
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| 19:10.41 | *** join/#openmoko alex-weej (n=alex@halls-129-31-82-59.hor.ic.ac.uk) |
| 19:13.01 | yacc | Just wondering, when I get the Wiki right, I need to follow the OpenEmbedded getting started and after that I need to use the SVN overlay from openmoko? |
| 19:13.55 | *** join/#openmoko alp (n=alp@host-87-74-58-121.bulldogdsl.com) |
| 19:14.18 | *** join/#openmoko Ryushin (i=proxy@windwalker.openinnovations.com) |
| 19:14.28 | abraxa_ | yacc: To do what? Get qemu up and running? |
| 19:14.53 | yacc | No compile the toolchain and some needed packages? |
| 19:15.04 | abraxa_ | Ah, yeah |
| 19:16.08 | *** join/#openmoko ewanm89_ (n=ewanm89@host81-159-108-244.range81-159.btcentralplus.com) |
| 19:17.02 | koen | you don't actually need the svn overlay if you are going to use OE |
| 19:17.54 | yacc | koen? |
| 19:18.59 | koen | everything you need is already in OE |
| 19:20.00 | yacc | For a toolchain? Or also for the OpenMoko libraries? |
| 19:20.11 | koen | yacc: everything |
| 19:20.13 | koen | hey prpplague |
| 19:20.18 | prpplague | koen: except for the medicine for stomach and head ache problems |
| 19:20.27 | prpplague | koen: other than that OE has what you need |
| 19:20.43 | koen | the overlay is only needed if you want to be bug-compatible with buildhost.openmoko.org |
| 19:21.02 | koen | prpplague: I have some nurofen here :)_ |
| 19:21.08 | prpplague | hehe |
| 19:21.14 | balrog-kun | heh |
| 19:21.55 | yacc | Me wonders, OE uses monotone, doesn't it? Why a svn overlay? Stupid question? |
| 19:22.14 | koen | dunno |
| 19:22.40 | koen | I wouldn't use a centralized scm to save my life |
| 19:23.10 | yacc | You must choose a location with no symlinks above it <= Why? And how many GB does one need? |
| 19:23.52 | zecke | not yet |
| 19:23.54 | koen | balrog-kun: not really, since every openmoko user starts his sentence with "the makefile broke...." |
| 19:24.04 | SpeedEvil | The full build takes some 10G |
| 19:24.17 | koen | SpeedEvil: 600megs over here |
| 19:24.28 | balrog-kun | koen: hah |
| 19:25.07 | koen | balrog-kun: that, and bugs get filed in the openmoko bugzilla |
| 19:27.55 | balrog-kun | but the fixes do find their way upstream i assume |
| 19:28.02 | balrog-kun | even when submitted by random people |
| 19:28.11 | SpeedEvil | Oh right. |
| 19:28.14 | koen | sort off |
| 19:28.50 | koen | balrog-kun: I'd say that the 'hacks' go in svn and the proper 'fixes' into OE |
| 19:29.08 | koen | the svn overlay is too low priority to do 'right' |
| 19:29.23 | zecke | koen: should I get you the valium? |
| 19:29.31 | balrog-kun | heh okay |
| 19:30.01 | koen | zecke: http://www.jalimo.org/wiki/doku.php |
| 19:30.12 | yacc | koen: for openmoko I need to fetch the standard OE.mtn.bz2? |
| 19:30.57 | koen | YAJP - Yet another java project |
| 19:30.57 | koen | yacc: no |
| 19:31.28 | yacc | koen which one then? |
| 19:31.41 | koen | dunno what openmoko uses |
| 19:32.14 | yacc | hmmm? |
| 19:36.11 | yacc | koen: Who might know that? |
| 19:42.13 | *** join/#openmoko _rob (n=rob@ACAD46EA.ipt.aol.com) |
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| 19:56.28 | yacc | Basically, is there any documentation how to get started with app developement? |
| 19:57.24 | Moo^^ | yacc: there is some |
| 19:57.37 | Moo^^ | mostly dealing the get the development environment up |
| 19:58.06 | balrog-kun | i'm sure there is, lots of people got started with the development |
| 19:58.27 | koen | download sources, build them, develop your app |
| 19:58.47 | koen | no need for emulators/crosscompilers/unicorns |
| 19:59.05 | balrog-kun | i'd argue about unicorns |
| 19:59.06 | Moo^^ | koen: you forgot the step ??? |
| 19:59.10 | *** join/#openmoko ewanm89 (n=ewanm89@host86-152-203-16.range86-152.btcentralplus.com) |
| 19:59.38 | *** part/#openmoko bengl (n=benglish@bas10-ottawa23-1088830920.dsl.bell.ca) |
| 19:59.38 | koen | balrog-kun: seen the prices for unicorn food lately? |
| 19:59.57 | balrog-kun | koen: frankly no i haven't |
| 20:00.31 | yacc | koen: Where do I find the sources? |
| 20:00.40 | Moo^^ | http://www.google.com/products?q=unicorn+food&btnG=Search+Products |
| 20:00.42 | koen | svn.openmoko.org |
| 20:01.07 | Moo^^ | yacc: I recommend reading tutorials in http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Main_Page |
| 20:01.30 | Moo^^ | yacc: if you want to see the thing, just build qemu target with mokomakefile |
| 20:01.57 | Moo^^ | now I am trying to set-up Xoo development environment. I really couldn't figure out how to build a bridge between the host computer and qemu |
| 20:03.34 | yacc | I've got more the need for a Moko conforming helloworld.c :) |
| 20:03.47 | yacc | And after that the compiled version. |
| 20:04.03 | balrog-kun | Moo^^: what kind of bridge? |
| 20:04.19 | *** join/#openmoko ewanm89_ (n=ewanm89@host86-152-203-57.range86-152.btcentralplus.com) |
| 20:04.27 | buz | the bridge that leads to the unicorn food |
| 20:04.57 | balrog-kun | oh that bridge |
| 20:05.18 | Moo^^ | balrog-kun: I want to feed some development files for qemu without building the image (nfs?). also, I'd like to run shell. |
| 20:05.35 | Moo^^ | didn't really found any documentation how to run shell in qemu |
| 20:06.54 | balrog-kun | older OpenMoko images had a terminal-emulator icon on the launcher |
| 20:07.35 | balrog-kun | work is in progress on usb support, so you can have a network over usb or a usb serial tty, if it works out |
| 20:09.52 | *** join/#openmoko pleemans (n=peter@d51A5E76A.access.telenet.be) |
| 20:10.57 | Moo^^ | balrog-kun: nice to hear! |
| 20:11.04 | Moo^^ | meanwhile I try to play around with Xoo |
| 20:11.45 | Moo^^ | desperately ,__, |
| 20:11.47 | Moo^^ | openmoko-panel-battery.c:26:17: error: apm.h: No such file or directory |
| 20:16.17 | *** join/#openmoko infernix (i=nix@unaffiliated/infernix) |
| 20:16.39 | Moo^^ | looks like this is a bug? http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-devel/2007-April/000857.html |
| 20:16.46 | Moo^^ | could anyone hint a solution? |
| 20:16.55 | *** join/#openmoko concept10 (n=concept1@ppp-70-247-162-218.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) |
| 20:17.54 | Moo^^ | how one can exclude certain packages from build? |
| 20:18.02 | *** join/#openmoko atla (n=atla@p3EE3CDF6.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 20:20.40 | CIA-16 | openmoko: 03mickey * r1863 10/trunk/oe/packages/openmoko-panel-plugins/openmoko-panel-battery_svn.bb: openmoko-panel-battery: add missing dependency to apmd |
| 20:21.07 | Moo^^ | well, looks like the fairy answered to my wishes! |
| 20:21.21 | Hopscotch | rofl |
| 20:21.50 | yacc | Moo^^: looks like mickey is not yet asleep ;) |
| 20:22.03 | Moo^^ | does mickey irc? |
| 20:22.20 | Hopscotch | hey's mickey|zzZZzz |
| 20:23.48 | yacc | But back to the question, I've got svn.openmoko.org/trunk checked out, where do I start the build? *wonder* |
| 20:24.03 | balrog-kun | Moo^^: yes, Xoo is definitely a better tool for testing your programs |
| 20:24.06 | balrog-kun | sorry was on phone |
| 20:24.42 | balrog-kun | the qemu-neo1973 tries to be like the real phone, i think you wouldn't always test the programs on the phone when coding (if you had the phone) |
| 20:24.48 | koen | to illustrate my point: the dep on apmd was added 2 weeks ago to OE |
| 20:25.04 | koen | 30fd35ee.. by rpurdie 2007-04-14: DEPENDS = "apmd" |
| 20:25.52 | Moo^^ | koen: is it because openmoko is not synced with openembedded head? |
| 20:26.07 | koen | dunno |
| 20:26.10 | aloril | (script) openmoko-devel: Werner Almesberger <werner at openmoko.org> Re: GPS GPL driver. |
| 20:26.22 | Moo^^ | yacc: read about build process in openmoko wiki. mokomakefile is shortcut to happiness - though it's not offical way to build anything. |
| 20:28.23 | yacc | Moo^^: which page? |
| 20:29.16 | *** join/#openmoko LeRrA (n=lerra@h-89-233-202-71.wholesale.rp80.se) |
| 20:30.05 | Moo^^ | yacc: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile |
| 20:30.25 | Moo^^ | yacc: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Getting_Openmoko_working_on_host_with_Xoo |
| 20:31.03 | yacc | Moo^^: thx, found it :) |
| 20:33.25 | yacc | Hmm, the MokoMakefile fetches bitbake 1.6, OE seems to recommend 1.8? |
| 20:35.41 | *** join/#openmoko jannu (n=jannu@hoas-fe29dd00-231.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 20:36.28 | Moo^^ | I had no problems with Ubuntu Feisty |
| 20:36.51 | *** join/#openmoko nonickatm (n=chatzill@168.226.104.106) |
| 20:43.31 | yacc | Moo^^: Ubuntu Feisty? For what? |
| 20:45.33 | *** join/#openmoko [g2] (n=tom@nslu2-linux/g2) |
| 20:45.40 | [g2] | koen, nice presentation :) |
| 20:50.20 | *** join/#openmoko woglinde (i=woglinde@e178123044.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 20:50.20 | woglinde | counter |
| 20:50.20 | aloril | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: 2 weeks, 3 days 03:10:44 (17.132 +-3.5 days) (1033;184) |
| 20:53.50 | *** join/#openmoko stratus (n=stratus@201.53.55.52) |
| 20:54.10 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User_talk:Pudelfish]] [[Press_Coverage]] [[Talk:Higher_level_language_options]] |
| 20:54.11 | *** join/#openmoko Moo^ (n=moo@owla-gw.cust.eunet.fi) |
| 20:56.59 | rwhitby | morning |
| 20:57.57 | yacc | Morning. |
| 20:59.03 | yacc | rwhitby: Just wondered why your Makefile fetches bitbake 1.6, while OE recommends 1.8? |
| 20:59.35 | rwhitby | yacc: cause OM has patches to 1.6 that haven't been ported to 1.8 yet |
| 20:59.45 | yacc | Oh :) |
| 20:59.45 | rwhitby | (to do the remote version retrieval stuff) |
| 21:00.28 | rwhitby | henryk is working on porting those patches to bitbake 1.8, and as soon as that happens MokoMakefile will move (with the OM core team) |
| 21:05.11 | *** join/#openmoko pavelm (n=pavel@gprs189-60.eurotel.cz) |
| 21:06.48 | nonickatm | there are two proyects in the openmoko's gforge that seems to be created by bots |
| 21:07.32 | koen | nonickatm: remember that a human has to approve them |
| 21:08.10 | rwhitby | is anonymous svn access working on projects.openmoko.org yet? |
| 21:08.12 | nonickatm | I am refering to http://projects.openmoko.org/projects/ttosss/ and http://projects.openmoko.org/projects/coach/ |
| 21:08.27 | nonickatm | those look too suspicious |
| 21:08.33 | Moo^ | hey rwhitby. have you considered adding xoo target for mokomakefile? |
| 21:08.57 | koen | rwhitby: the java dudes pasted a svn link a while ago |
| 21:08.59 | yacc | rwhitby: Just a small problem. When the mtn call fails because a IO error, calling make setup again does not fetches the missing revisions it seems. |
| 21:09.24 | koen | rwhitby: so the svn situation has improved, but I didn't try checking out stuff, only using the viewvc plugin |
| 21:09.56 | yacc | rwhitby: see http://rafb.net/p/dad3su24.html |
| 21:11.47 | rwhitby | koen: that's a good sign. time for me to try again then. |
| 21:12.23 | rwhitby | yacc: make update will |
| 21:12.41 | *** join/#openmoko rox (i=rox@84.255.206.50) |
| 21:12.59 | yacc | so after a make setup that was interrupted I should make update instead? |
| 21:13.07 | rwhitby | oh, hang on. |
| 21:13.46 | rwhitby | yeah, that is a problem case. if the download and gunzip works, but the initial pull to get the latest revs fails. |
| 21:13.58 | rwhitby | then you don't have the frozen rev, so the checkout fails too. |
| 21:14.21 | *** join/#openmoko Agrajag- (n=filip@c211-30-185-177.artrmn2.nsw.optusnet.com.au) |
| 21:14.22 | rwhitby | dunno how to fix that without incurring the initial pull every time setup is run. |
| 21:15.10 | yacc | Yeah, but that's somehow unfunny for people with connections less than 100% reliable? |
| 21:15.22 | yacc | rwhitby: what should I do in that case? |
| 21:16.18 | yacc | Ok, I'm doing the pull manually. |
| 21:17.19 | *** join/#openmoko mwester (n=mwester@nslu2-linux/mwester) |
| 21:17.48 | rwhitby | yacc: yeah, "mtn pull" should fix it. |
| 21:17.53 | rwhitby | (since the defaults will be set) |
| 21:18.19 | yacc | Well, actually, I just copywasted the command make has output. |
| 21:19.18 | yacc | rwhitby: At least the pull seems to resume where it stopped :) |
| 21:24.49 | yacc | rwhitby: what about recording a stamp that the pull was sucessful only when the mtn call exits with 0? |
| 21:26.46 | rwhitby | yacc: it does that, but I'm also checking for the existence of the OE.mtn file so that the OE.mtn file didn't get re-downloaded just to add the stamp (which only got added recently to the makefile) |
| 21:27.10 | rwhitby | I guess I can take that out now - everyone should have run at least one command that would have updated the stamps since then. |
| 21:27.30 | yacc | yeah, but your objection is that mtn pull takes a long time, even it does not pull anything? |
| 21:29.19 | rwhitby | that, and the load on the server. |
| 21:29.32 | rwhitby | (openmoko does not have it's own monotone server yet) |
| 21:32.31 | yacc | hmmm. |
| 21:32.51 | yacc | rwhitby: so you only pull updates for make update? |
| 21:32.57 | rwhitby | yep |
| 21:33.44 | rwhitby | and only if it's not a frozen version |
| 21:33.45 | rwhitby | so make update doesn't touch the monotone server at all at the moment. |
| 21:35.12 | yacc | What's a frozen version? *wonder* |
| 21:35.23 | *** join/#openmoko cga (n=cga@213-140-6-101.ip.fastwebnet.it) |
| 21:35.45 | rwhitby | openmoko uses a specific OE revision, not the head. |
| 21:38.24 | CIA-16 | openmoko: 03rwhitby * r91 10mokomakefile/trunk/Makefile: Finished the transition to using stamps instead of existence of files. |
| 21:38.42 | rwhitby | yacc: should be fixed now |
| 21:39.28 | rwhitby | Moo^: tell me about xoo - what should MokoMakefile do? |
| 21:39.52 | yacc | rwhitby: so after the "manual" mtn pull finishes, should I run make setup or make update first? |
| 21:41.08 | rwhitby | now, if any of those steps fails, it will retry from the start. so you will probably want to touch the stamp file so it doesn't do that. |
| 21:41.48 | Moo^ | rwhitby: I was thinking adding automatic x86/Xoo target like qemu is now |
| 21:42.07 | rwhitby | Moo^: where are the build instructions? |
| 21:42.17 | Moo^ | though I am not sure how to do it, since local.conf is shared between builds |
| 21:43.03 | Moo^ | rwhitby: I try to live with these: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Getting_Openmoko_working_on_host_with_Xoo |
| 21:57.54 | *** join/#openmoko wehttamb (n=wehttamb@CPE-124-183-231-160.nsw.bigpond.net.au) |
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| 21:58.31 | MetaBookfoziS | counter |
| 21:58.31 | aloril | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: 2 weeks, 3 days 02:01:28 (17.084 +-3.5 days) (1034;184) |
| 22:02.32 | CoreDump|home | hi |
| 22:05.07 | rwhitby | mwester: treo650? |
| 22:05.18 | mwester | Yep, used. |
| 22:06.03 | mwester | I'm disappointed, I had hoped to use the $$ for the Neo, but perhaps later instead. |
| 22:06.33 | rwhitby | I consider the useability of the Treo650 to be the benchmark that I will measure the Neo against. |
| 22:07.38 | mwester | Well, certainly the Blackberry wins absolutely no awards -- the UI is among the worst I've ever been forced to use! |
| 22:08.05 | mwester | I guess the Blackberry would serve as an example of how OpenMoko should *NOT* behave ;) |
| 22:08.27 | *** join/#openmoko parag0n (n=parag0n@popeshoe.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 22:13.54 | LarstiQ | mwester: ah, you're a valuable resource then :) |
| 22:19.32 | *** part/#openmoko cga (n=cga@213-140-6-101.ip.fastwebnet.it) |
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| 22:38.40 | rwhitby | Moo^: so by building for xoo, you just mean a MACHINE=x86 build of normal openmoko-devel-image, right? |
| 22:38.56 | *** join/#openmoko wehttamb (n=wehttamb@CPE-124-184-225-93.nsw.bigpond.net.au) |
| 22:40.11 | abraxa_ | rwhitby: It seems like overkill to me to build the entire rootfs for xoo as you basically just need everything in OM-2007 of the OpenMoko SVN to be built |
| 22:41.20 | abraxa_ | ie. openmoko-libs and the applications - the rest (d-bus & friends) should be available on the host system already I figure |
| 22:41.24 | rwhitby | abraxa_: nod. does someone have known good build instructions for that? |
| 22:41.52 | rwhitby | (that doesn't require qmake, cause I can't get qmake for all the platforms I test MokoMakefile on) |
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| 22:42.30 | abraxa_ | I did build those a while ago but in the meanwhile I forgot what caveats I came across and how I might've fixed them =x |
| 22:43.00 | rwhitby | if someone wants to write the wiki page with build instructions, I'd be happy to add it to mokomakefile. |
| 22:44.27 | abraxa_ | Muchly appreciated |
| 22:44.43 | balrog-kun | i don't think it would be too heavy the Xoo rootfs was a separate, optional target |
| 22:45.03 | balrog-kun | s/heavy/heavy if/ |
| 22:46.13 | Moo^ | rwhitby: not sure about it, I am still trying to get step 1 done :) |
| 22:56.27 | *** part/#openmoko nonickatm (n=chatzill@168.226.104.106) |
| 22:56.35 | yacc | mtn is slow. Wondering is mtn 0.34 faster than 0.31? |
| 23:05.21 | roh | yacc nope. just not fully compatible 5-) .. propably need to migrate the db then |
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| 23:14.12 | yacc | roh: So how do I make it faster? |
| 23:14.30 | yacc | It somehow feels like using the SVN plugin in eclipse, ... |
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| 23:25.03 | mwester | yacc: rewrite it? I've often wondered how it is possible for software to take so long to modify so few bits on disk with so much CPU consumption as monotone... |
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| 23:29.49 | abraxa_ | mwester: Maybe monotone builds some hashes of all files within each package to check whether it needs to be updated? That's what I'm tempted to assume at least... |
| 23:31.00 | rwhitby | it actually does a cryptographic verification of all revisions |
| 23:31.20 | rwhitby | or something really secure like that. |
| 23:31.34 | mwester | I've thought about what it might be doing as I've waited and watched many sync operations, and even if it were written in Perl, one would expect that a crypto algorithm applied to 100MB of data shouldn't take several hours on a 2.8GHz P4... :( |
| 23:33.10 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@qiqinebs.chi.il.us) |
| 23:33.31 | mwester | I've meant to try to profile the code, but I've never gotten 'round to it... |
| 23:34.51 | yacc | rwhitby: git lives with secure hashes too, and yet it has quite a different performance feeling. |
| 23:35.14 | rwhitby | yacc: yup |
| 23:36.03 | rwhitby | yacc: monotone uses certificates, rather than just hashes like git (I think) |
| 23:36.09 | yacc | rwhitby: different is perhaps the wrong word. It usually takes longer to type the command than the command takes to execute. |
| 23:36.29 | yacc | rwhitby: git has the same mechanism to crypto sign specific releases. |
| 23:36.41 | yacc | same is perhaps to strong a word. |
| 23:36.50 | rwhitby | yacc: yeah, but I think monotone does that signature for *every* revision. |
| 23:38.36 | yacc | rwhitby: Still doesn't explain it => crypto signing/verification of small files is not really a workload for current CPUs. => MD5/SHA1 of huge amounts of files take time, but git does these too. |
| 23:40.34 | rwhitby | yacc: nod |
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| 23:41.55 | yacc | Mine is so old, ... |
| 23:45.21 | *** join/#openmoko msroest (n=msroest@S01060040f41dad58.cg.shawcable.net) |
| 23:53.45 | Moo^ | rwhitby: could it be possible to reduce the number of locales for build? any speed up with this? |
| 23:54.56 | *** part/#openmoko ivan (n=ivan@ool-182d0435.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 23:58.55 | rwhitby | Moo^: not with frozen OE - when OM moves to OE head we can. |
