IRC log for #openmoko on 20070425

`00:02.47`	`*** join/#openmoko gyaresu (n=gyaresu@ppp106-86.lns1.hba1.internode.on.net)`
`00:03.17`	`*** join/#openmoko rwhitby-treo (n=rwhitby@nslu2-linux/rwhitby)`
`00:06.16`	`rwhitby-treo`	`nice status update`
`00:06.54`	`rwhitby-treo`	`congrats to Kaloz`
`00:13.05`	`*** join/#openmoko jeremyb (n=jeremyb@ool-44c7d57c.dyn.optonline.net)`
`00:18.12`	`*** join/#openmoko merriam_ (n=merriam@85-211-173-18.dyn.gotadsl.co.uk)`
`00:29.04`	`*** join/#openmoko kW_ (n=kwkw@ip-58-28-132-179.ubs-dsl.xnet.co.nz)`
`00:30.38`	`kito_`	`damn`
`00:30.47`	`kito_`	`so nothing until june...`
`00:31.38`	`kito_`	`anyone know any other phones that are at least a little hackable? I need something to hold me over`
`00:31.40`	`paulproteus`	`Yay a status update.`
`00:32.40`	`SuN`	`You can always get something from Motorola.`
`00:33.13`	`kito_`	`I was looking at the A1200, but I hear it uses SELinux and is locked down pretty hard`
`00:33.20`	`yacc`	`Just wondering, sean is never on this channel?`
`00:33.37`	`SuN`	`I'm not sure, but I think people are starting to run custom kernels on it.`
`00:34.21`	`yacc`	`kito_: Well, I've looked at the Nokia E61 (which are getting to be slightly cheaper, because they released an E61i with a camera), it's Symbian S60, meaning you've got at least a working python installation on it.`
`00:34.49`	`*** join/#openmoko abraxa__ (n=abraxa@pD95FF3B4.dip.t-dialin.net)`
`00:34.50`	`rwhitby-treo`	`seen him once only, many weeks ago.`
`00:35.17`	`*** join/#openmoko overseer (n=overseer@dsl092-044-123.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net)`
`00:37.25`	`kito_`	`yacc: could be nice, thanks for the tip`
`00:42.01`	`*** join/#openmoko orospakr (n=orospakr@bas4-ottawa23-1088826796.dsl.bell.ca)`
`00:44.14`	`*** join/#openmoko kW (n=kwkw@ip-58-28-132-179.ubs-dsl.xnet.co.nz)`
`00:46.27`	`SuN`	`Hm, where's the update? Am I overlooking something on the mailing list?`
`00:52.22`	`*** join/#openmoko ninHer (n=ninHer@79.Red-88-6-201.staticIP.rima-tde.net)`
`00:54.29`	`*** join/#openmoko rwhitby-treo (n=rwhitby@nslu2-linux/rwhitby)`
`01:09.32`	`*** join/#openmoko MacNorthOSX (n=daijobu@c-75-71-250-33.hsd1.co.comcast.net)`
`01:19.22`	`*** join/#openmoko PiTT (n=pitt@75.80.8.127)`
`01:19.37`	`PiTT`	`any developers in here?`
`01:19.37`	`aloril`	`PiTT: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)`
`01:19.39`	`PiTT`	`i have a question`
`01:19.55`	`PiTT`	`is this software only made for touchscreen devices?`
`01:20.01`	`PiTT`	`or can it be run on a non-touch screen?`
`01:20.25`	`SuN`	`You mean mouse-driven or just keys?`
`01:20.53`	`SuN`	`It's obviously going to be geared towards touchscreens, but it's still GTK so keyboards and mice will work just as well.`
`01:20.59`	`PiTT`	`just keys`
`01:21.16`	`PiTT`	`like a non TS device`
`01:21.38`	`SuN`	`Like a classic phone?`
`01:21.43`	`PiTT`	`sure`
`01:21.52`	`PiTT`	`and what are minimum specs required?`
`01:22.16`	`SuN`	`I'm sure the software can be ported, but it's going to need some tailoring.`
`01:22.28`	`SuN`	`Ported is not the right word, adapted is, I guess.`
`01:22.29`	`PiTT`	`i work for a OEM`
`01:22.33`	`PiTT`	`we have a phone coming out`
`01:22.39`	`PiTT`	`and we can do TS`
`01:22.45`	`PiTT`	`but this phone is just, well a phone`
`01:22.54`	`PiTT`	`and want to avoid touch screen if at all possible`
`01:23.59`	`PiTT`	`who would i speak to about this?`
`01:24.13`	`SuN`	`Best post it on the mailing list, I guess.`
`01:24.28`	`PiTT`	`ok`
`01:24.33`	`PiTT`	`thanks for your help`
`01:24.38`	`PiTT`	`do you know minimum specs needed?`
`01:24.42`	`SuN`	`No problem.`
`01:24.44`	`PiTT`	`will it run on a omap 200mhz?`
`01:25.02`	`SuN`	`Probably, from what I've heard, RAM is much more important.`
`01:25.30`	`PiTT`	`64MB enough?`
`01:25.34`	`PiTT`	`i'm assuming so`
`01:26.29`	`SuN`	`64MB is going to be very tight, unless drastic optimizations can be found.`
`01:27.26`	`PiTT`	`hmm ok`
`01:27.35`	`PiTT`	`what is the biggest difference between this and Qtopia?`
`01:27.40`	`SuN`	`Also, if you don't have a 640x480 screen, it's going to need a lot of work as well. People are probably going to adapt things to 320x240 but that's probably going to take a while.`
`01:27.46`	`PiTT`	`i've spoken to a few people at trolltech so far`
`01:27.51`	`PiTT`	`but i want to get as much info`
`01:28.04`	`PiTT`	`as possible`
`01:28.10`	`SuN`	`For one, it's X11-based, and it uses "real" GTK as opposed to an embedded version.`
`01:28.37`	`PiTT`	`this is commpletely open source correct?`
`01:28.37`	`SuN`	`So porting should be easier, and in theory, a lot of apps should run out of the box (though they might not make sense on a phone).`
`01:28.45`	`SuN`	`Yep`
`01:28.57`	`PiTT`	`so carriers wouldn't mess with this`
`01:29.42`	`SuN`	`Not likely... it's open source so in theory they could... under certain circumstances. But you'd be able to flash your phone anyway so I doubt anyone will.`
`01:30.35`	`*** join/#openmoko stryderjzw (n=stryderj@216.232.85.137)`
`01:31.13`	`SuN`	`I'm 100% sure FIC won't condone it, though... so a carrier would have to do it on their own account.`
`01:31.19`	`SuN`	`Which is even more unlikely.`
`01:32.17`	`parag0n`	`well, openmoko is a software platform, theoretically FIC have little control over what people can and can't do with it`
`01:32.53`	`SuN`	`True, but it's still GPL so it'd be very hard to close it up without violating that.`
`01:33.29`	`parag0n`	`as long as they release the source, they'd still be able to put in arbitrary restrictions`
`01:33.50`	`SuN`	`And locking stuff up while releasing the source at the same time hasn't yet proven to be very viable or even useful.`
`01:34.13`	`parag0n`	`i'm sure most of the poeple here would have no problem reflashing it to the default software, but the general public might not hav as easy a time`
`01:34.19`	`SuN`	`True`
`01:35.25`	`SuN`	`But I don't see FIC distributing these phones to carriers that are potentially non-friendly to the OS community.`
`01:36.15`	`parag0n`	`the neo is also being sold as a windows ce device iirc`
`01:36.26`	`SuN`	`Are you sure about that?`
`01:36.40`	`parag0n`	`that was the plan, i dont know if they still are going to`
`01:37.11`	`parag0n`	`apparently its designed around a phone they've built for the chinese government or something`
`01:41.30`	`*** join/#openmoko chen (n=chatzill@59-124-115-148.HINET-IP.hinet.net)`
`01:53.56`	`*** join/#openmoko wehttamb__ (n=wehttamb@CPE-124-187-179-204.nsw.bigpond.net.au)`
`01:54.45`	`*** join/#openmoko armyriad (i=metroman@pool-70-23-163-219.ny325.east.verizon.net)`
`01:55.11`	`chen`	`Hello! Do you have ever use qemu for openmoko?`
`01:55.12`	`aloril`	`chen: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)`
`01:56.54`	`armyriad`	`Is this a mobile phone or a phone operating system?`
`01:56.54`	`aloril`	`armyriad: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)`
`01:57.39`	`PiTT`	`armyriad: its a operating system`
`01:58.15`	`chen`	`Now I have run qemu for openmoko already. But I don't know how to login openmoko.`
`01:58.24`	`armyriad`	`$350 for an operating system!?`
`01:58.33`	`CoreDump\|home`	`heh`
`01:58.45`	`CoreDump\|home`	`$350 for the neo1973 phone which runs it`
`01:58.52`	`armyriad`	`Can't you just use a modified Linux?`
`01:59.59`	`dottedmag`	`lol`
`02:00.00`	`SuN`	`What do you think Openmoko is? :D`
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`02:00.45`	`*** join/#openmoko deepank (n=deepank@59.178.45.233)`
`02:01.41`	`aloril`	`armyriad: its about both in practice: Neo1973 is $350 phone and OpenMoko is software (which you can download now)`
`02:01.50`	`armyriad`	`Oh.`
`02:02.18`	`aloril`	`FAQ answers this and many other questions ;-)`
`02:03.21`	`CoreDump\|home`	`all P0 devs and P1-interested folks should check the announce ML if they didn't already do so`
`02:03.57`	`CoreDump\|home`	`"we can finally`
`02:03.57`	`CoreDump\|home`	`start to move out of engineering sample mode and into real production!"`
`02:03.59`	`CoreDump\|home`	`=)`
`02:05.42`	`aloril`	`(script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz <sean at openmoko.com> Re: Status update on the phones? and 1 other mails`
`02:05.42`	`aloril`	`(script) openmoko-neo1973: Harald Welte <laforge at openmoko.org> Re: Power management concept... and 3 other mails`
`02:09.41`	`aloril`	`(script) openmoko-announce: Sean Moss-Pultz <sean at openmoko.com> [openmoko-announce] Some light ahead...`
`02:09.41`	`aloril`	`(script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz <sean at openmoko.com> Some light ahead...`
`02:09.41`	`aloril`	`(script) openmoko-devel: Werner Almesberger <werner at openmoko.org> Re: Bricked?`
`02:10.29`	`aloril`	`hmm.. firefox being backgrounded blocked gconf... again`
`02:10.53`	`aloril`	`s/backgrounded/suspended`
`02:11.06`	`aloril`	`s"backgrounded"suspended"`
`02:11.11`	`aloril`	`hmm.. it doesn't know this ;-)`
`02:16.54`	`*** join/#openmoko aloril2 (n=aloril@kaar72.airix.fi)`
`02:19.48`	`*** join/#openmoko aesci7E (n=aesci99@221.221.136.123)`
`02:19.54`	`aloril`	`2007-05-10 .. 2007-05-17 ?`
`02:19.57`	`aloril`	`CoreDump\|home: thanks`
`02:20.32`	`CoreDump\|home`	`np`
`02:20.57`	`aloril`	`counter`
`02:20.57`	`aloril`	`http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 (uncertainty is guess): 2 weeks, 5 days 21:39:02 (19.902 +-3.5 days) (1002;179)`
`02:22.45`	`*** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@qiqinebs.chi.il.us)`
`02:25.03`	`ppc970`	`hey aloril`
`02:25.14`	`aloril`	`hi ppc970`
`02:25.29`	`ppc970`	`i just read the update e-mail from Sean...`
`02:25.37`	`aloril`	`previous guess was reasonable it seems, end date for it was 2007-05-14, now its 2007-04-17`
`02:25.43`	`ppc970`	`When Sean talks about 'next product', he means another phase, or a second generation?`
`02:25.51`	`aloril`	`so real change is reducing uncertainty ;-)`
`02:26.40`	`*** join/#openmoko jserv2 (n=jserv@linux3.cc.ntu.edu.tw)`
`02:26.52`	`ppc970`	`It seems that WiFi wouldn't make it :(`
`02:26.54`	`*** join/#openmoko MagicBobert (n=Bob@24-180-10-185.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com)`
`02:27.23`	`aloril`	`it was never planned for P1 AFAIC`
`02:27.38`	`ppc970`	`i know that`
`02:27.51`	`aloril`	`ah, I think it means P1.5?`
`02:27.55`	`*** join/#openmoko stratus (n=stratus@201.53.55.52)`
`02:28.07`	`ppc970`	`do you?`
`02:28.13`	`aloril`	`have suspicion it won't be at June though`
`02:28.18`	`aloril`	`guess of course ;-)`
`02:28.37`	`ppc970`	`he said "We're almost for sure going to use their AR6K chipset in our next product."`
`02:28.59`	`aloril`	`yeah, does he mean P1.5, P2 or v2?`
`02:29.30`	`ppc970`	`first, i got doubt...`
`02:29.33`	`ppc970`	`now, i don't know`
`02:29.37`	`ppc970`	`heh`
`02:29.39`	`aloril`	`(P1.5 is probably same as P2 which is different hardware revision)`
`02:30.27`	`ppc970`	`wifi support means board redesign, i guess`
`02:30.35`	`aloril`	`GTA02 vs GTA01v4`
`02:30.41`	`*** join/#openmoko mzb (i=marcus@ppp108-88.static.internode.on.net)`
`02:30.50`	`aloril`	`yes it does`
`02:31.31`	`aloril`	`so I think May==GTA01v4`
`02:32.10`	`aloril`	`next product GTA02 (which is still Neo1973, except faster CPU and WiFi (don't know about other potential changes))`
`02:32.49`	`ppc970`	`well, we got the qemu emulator in the time being :)`
`02:33.40`	`aloril`	`hmm.. not yet here: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-April/thread.html`
`02:34.23`	`ppc970`	`here it is: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-April/004926.html`
`02:34.46`	`ppc970`	`i don't know why it doesn't appears in the announce archive`
`02:35.07`	`*** join/#openmoko rejon (n=rejon@c-24-7-58-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)`
`02:37.22`	`aloril`	`neither here: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-March/thread.html`
`02:37.31`	`wehttamb__`	`what about a camera on the openmoko?`
`02:37.40`	`*** join/#openmoko DerCorny_ (n=corny@62.75.171.150)`
`02:37.40`	`aloril`	`ah, thread not updated, hmm..`
`02:37.51`	`wehttamb__`	`what are the chances of one?\`
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`02:37.56`	`aloril`	`http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-April/000012.html`
`02:38.26`	`aloril`	`wehttamb__: probably good for some model next year? (pure guess of course, I have no idea or hints of this)`
`02:38.43`	`aloril`	`we will know more when mass marked of Neo1973 is released`
`02:38.43`	`wehttamb__`	`ok`
`02:38.51`	`balrog-kun`	`afaik a camera is not planned`
`02:38.53`	`aloril`	`ie.. Neo1973 won't have camera, but some future model?`
`02:39.03`	`balrog-kun`	`at least not in any of the models whose names are known now`
`02:39.42`	`aloril`	`balrog-kun: are all models that will be announced at September already known?`
`02:39.43`	`wehttamb__`	`wat about with the usb port would it be possible to connect a cammera to the phone`
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`02:40.59`	`balrog-kun`	`aloril: to me the only known names are GTA01, 02 and the HXD8 :p`
`02:41.11`	`ppc970`	`a usb camera with the phone?`
`02:41.17`	`wehttamb__`	`yea`
`02:41.21`	`ppc970`	`get a real camera then!`
`02:41.22`	`wehttamb__`	`would that be possible`
`02:41.23`	`ppc970`	`:)`
`02:41.50`	`*** join/#openmoko RedDog (n=reddog@mastersword.de)`
`02:41.54`	`wehttamb__`	`but could u connect it to the phone and copy your photos to the phone`
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`02:42.09`	`ppc970`	`it must be self-powered...`
`02:42.29`	`wehttamb__`	`ok`
`02:42.34`	`ppc970`	`i think that would be doable`
`02:43.08`	`balrog-kun`	`in 2 years cameras will run Linux too and will have GSM modems builtin,`
`02:43.08`	`balrog-kun`	`:P`
`02:43.08`	`balrog-kun`	`so you will copy pictures from them without bothering with USB`
`02:43.21`	`wehttamb__`	`that would be good`
`02:43.52`	`ppc970`	`well... put your camera SD memory on your phone, and it�s done ;)`
`02:43.53`	`SuN`	`IF the camera has linux and gsm, who needs a neo? :D`
`02:44.06`	`aloril`	`balrog-kun: OK, I think there were like 5 models planned and HXD8 covers only one of those`
`02:44.10`	`wehttamb__`	`but wat if the camera doesnt use SD`
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`02:44.25`	`aloril`	`camera?`
`02:44.25`	`aloril`	`There is no camera included. With (battery) powered USB hub, you should be able to attach to (almost) any external camera. See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Hardware for details on what is included. Also see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ`
`02:44.26`	`SuN`	`Then you bought a crappy Sony cam ;)`
`02:44.28`	`ppc970`	`then throw your sony :P`
`02:44.33`	`SuN`	`Hah`
`02:44.36`	`ppc970`	`heh`
`02:44.45`	`wehttamb__`	`k`
`02:44.47`	`ppc970`	`i hate this vaio laptop`
`02:44.51`	`wehttamb__`	`lol`
`02:45.03`	`SuN`	`I like vaios, but memory stick isn't particularly appealing.`
`02:45.34`	`aloril`	`need 2 things: battery powered HUB and suitable USB cables, then anything that works in desktop Linux PC should work`
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`02:46.03`	`wehttamb__`	`that is cool`
`02:46.17`	`aloril`	`"I think I’m allowed to tell you that we worked on the design of two Neo1973 successors and we came up with something really unique and exciting…`
`02:46.17`	`aloril`	`" from http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2007/04/10/openmoko-coreteam-in-frankfurtmain/`
`02:46.49`	`aloril`	`so I would say answer is unknown, but personally I would guess some model will include camera ;-)`
`02:47.12`	`aloril`	`anyway, wait for September for actual info instead of pure guesses`
`02:47.24`	`wehttamb__`	`ok`
`02:49.38`	`*** join/#openmoko shenki_ (n=shenki@ppp42-11.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net)`
`02:50.18`	`aloril`	`haven't seen any feature freezes for OpenMoko yet?`
`02:53.19`	`wehttamb__`	`if you can plug any device that works on linux on usb into the phones usb port can you use an usb printer with the phone`
`02:53.27`	`wehttamb__`	`that would be awesome`
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`02:56.34`	`aloril`	`yeah, its Linux: think Pentium 133 or so machines with 128MB of RAM, but a bit more up to date Linux distribution (OpenMoko)`
`02:56.55`	`aloril`	`or external USB harddisks, etc..`
`02:57.26`	`aloril`	`(might want to have battery powered version, but there exists battery powered USB disks up to 160GB at least)`
`02:57.59`	`aloril`	`hmm... I wonder is this holds anymore: "FIC can make as many phones as developers can buy. There might be 6 week delay at most if estimate is wrong. [5]"`
`02:58.10`	`aloril`	`maybe that is for June date now and not for May date`
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`03:01.23`	`aloril`	`(openmoko.com change should be visible in this channel in 15 minutes of it happening)`
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`03:07.03`	`aloril`	`counter_msg http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is guess)`
`03:07.03`	`aloril`	`aloril changed counter prefix message to http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is guess)`
`03:09.07`	`aloril`	`again, enddate in range was changed only 3 days compared to yesterday, eventually yesterday counter would have reached date its now proposing ;-)`
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`03:09.53`	`wehttamb__`	`counter?`
`03:09.53`	`aloril`	`http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is guess) source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; P0: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review; 2 weeks, 5 days 20:50:06 (19.868 +-3.5 days) for devices for ANYBODY for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-05-13); 4 months, 3 weeks (144.368 +-15.0 days) for mass market (2007-09-15): see topic for more info (1003;179)`
`03:10.04`	`aloril`	`and shorter version:`
`03:10.05`	`aloril`	`counter`
`03:10.05`	`aloril`	`http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is guess) P1: 2 weeks, 5 days 20:49:55 (19.868 +-3.5 days) (1004;179)`
`03:10.16`	`wehttamb__`	`k`
`03:10.46`	`aloril`	`target date was moving forward every 2 days in yesterday counter (==reducing uncertainty) ;-)`
`03:11.24`	`aloril`	`(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[FAQ]] [[Neo1973]] [[Main_Page/zh_cn]]`
`03:12.39`	`*** join/#openmoko shenki__ (n=shenki@ppp42-11.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net)`
`03:17.51`	`ppc970-`	`ask Sean =)`
`03:19.11`	`ppc970`	`i'm not on the list... yet`
`03:20.04`	`wehttamb__`	`would a usb mouse be possible to use with the openmoko?`
`03:21.17`	`ppc970`	`without a powered hub, i don't think so`
`03:21.44`	`wehttamb__`	`but with a powered hub would it be possible?`
`03:22.12`	`ppc970`	`but we have bluetooth`
`03:22.24`	`ppc970`	`in words of Steve Jobs �how cool is that?�`
`03:22.41`	`wehttamb__`	`are there bluetooth mice?`
`03:23.02`	`ppc970`	`bt mouse & kb, and vnc-connected with your office using your phone`
`03:23.06`	`ppc970`	`thats freaking cool`
`03:23.25`	`wehttamb__`	`:)`
`03:23.33`	`*** join/#openmoko billstevenson (n=billstev@c-71-58-61-130.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)`
`03:23.43`	`aloril`	`with powered hub any USB product that works in Linux should work (except those that require binary i386 driver)`
`03:24.16`	`jserv2`	`balrog-kun: hi`
`03:24.39`	`wehttamb__`	`that is soo cool`
`03:25.49`	`ppc970`	`newegg.com has some bluetooth mice`
`03:25.56`	`aloril`	`actually also you need to take into account that its > 10x slower than normal desktop PC ;-)`
`03:26.05`	`ppc970`	`like U$35`
`03:27.28`	`aloril`	`ppc970: with GPRS connection you might want to look at FreeNX`
`03:29.26`	`ppc970`	`haven�t heard of freenx in a while`
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`04:22.25`	`wehttamb__`	`'Oh and Imre Kaloz gets a freed phone, too. Thanks for being the first to`
`04:22.26`	`wehttamb__`	`tell us about Atheros. We're almost for sure going to use their AR6K`
`04:22.26`	`wehttamb__`	`chipset in our next product.'`
`04:22.40`	`ppc970`	`yup`
`04:22.51`	`ppc970`	`who is Imre?`
`04:23.33`	`aloril`	`works for Atheros?`
`04:23.46`	`aloril`	`(at least it sounds from above like that)`
`04:23.52`	`ppc970`	`hey, thats cheating!`
`04:23.57`	`ppc970`	`;)`
`04:24.13`	`ppc970`	`Oh, I remember`
`04:24.37`	`ppc970`	`they would give a Neo to the first that found a proper wifi chipset`
`04:25.08`	`aloril`	`actually above doesn't tell whether he works for Atheros`
`04:25.13`	`*** join/#openmoko unmadindu (n=sayamind@gnu-india/admin/unmadindu)`
`04:26.23`	`wehttamb__`	`yea does that mean there will be wifi in the september release`
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`04:29.25`	`wehttamb__`	`because the wifi determined if i would even get an openmoko i really need wifi`
`04:29.30`	`wehttamb__`	`:)`
`04:29.51`	`ppc970`	`me too`
`04:30.28`	`ppc970`	`get a Neo, not an OpenMoko ;)`
`04:31.16`	`aloril`	`um.. P1.5 release (doubt this is June, but probably before September) ?`
`04:31.35`	`aloril`	`and I think P2==P1.5 as hardware (software of course changes)`
`04:31.45`	`aloril`	`P2==September release`
`04:33.18`	`ppc970`	`would be there any difference between P2 and Release?`
`04:33.47`	`*** join/#openmoko bhima (n=gopi@64.213.69.24)`
`04:34.20`	`high-rez`	`i thought the legal status of the atheros driver was in question.`
`04:34.24`	`bhima`	`counter`
`04:34.25`	`aloril`	`http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is guess) P1: 2 weeks, 5 days 19:25:36 (19.809 +-3.5 days) (1005;179)`
`04:35.34`	`kito_`	`How are they going to figure out who gets in on the 05-10 and 05-17 releases?`
`04:36.06`	`bhima`	`Postmarks on the checks? :)`
`04:36.12`	`high-rez`	`i dont know but i hope the reall big carriers who have shown interest get a good dibs <g>`
`04:37.01`	`bhima`	`Yeah, does T-Mobile have dibs or Cingular?`
`04:37.13`	`high-rez`	`i said big carriers, that means tmobile isn't in the running ;)`
`04:38.51`	`ppc970`	`hope to be the first one in Colombia to get one :)`
`04:40.44`	`*** join/#openmoko lang72 (n=lang72@unaffiliated/lang72)`
`04:42.28`	`bhima`	`T-Mobile has 25 million subscribers.`
`04:42.44`	`bhima`	`Cingular has 61m.`
`04:43.12`	`high-rez`	`globally, they have 25mil. In the US they're a small player.`
`04:43.33`	`kito_`	`hey, I have T-mobile, and I'm the only thing that counts`
`04:43.55`	`ppc970`	`heh`
`04:44.37`	`aloril`	`kito_: preorder order?`
`04:45.06`	`bhima`	`No, globally it's 98m`
`04:45.06`	`aloril`	`ppc970: Release==P2`
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`04:45.15`	`ppc970`	`T-Mobile has 25M world wide?`
`04:45.23`	`kito_`	`aloril: any idea when they'll be doing that`
`04:45.31`	`ppc970`	`i know this local operators were a fu/&%$ liers`
`04:45.42`	`bhima`	`http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tmobile#United_States`
`04:45.42`	`aloril`	`kito_: September is mass market release`
`04:45.51`	`high-rez`	`bhima: then your US # is off, way off.`
`04:45.57`	`bhima`	`http://www.mobiletracker.net/archives/2007/01/28/t-mobile-25-million-subscribers`
`04:45.59`	`kito_`	`not looking for mass market. I'd like to develop`
`04:46.11`	`aloril`	`kito_: about preorder: subscribe to announce mailing list`
`04:46.17`	`kito_`	`I'll probably have some free time over the summer to play with stuff`
`04:46.21`	`lang72`	`I got a 5 year old phone or something like that I would like to change to this one :)`
`04:46.30`	`ppc970`	`oh, 25M just in USA`
`04:46.30`	`lang72`	`No phone had any features I wanted before now`
`04:48.07`	`high-rez`	`i think 25 million is optimistic if they count every sim ever sold, even as voicestream. but, if thats what they're claiming, i won't argue.`
`04:48.51`	`kito_`	`perhaps a site should be setup so all potential developers can register. just so they'll know how many people are out there`
`04:50.16`	`bhima`	`high-rez: If they lied that blatantly in an official release, the SEC will probably get somebody thrown in prison.`
`04:50.43`	`bhima`	`high-rez: They expressly claim that as current customers.`
`04:51.01`	`paulproteus`	`kito_, FYI there's a wiki page for doing just that.`
`04:51.48`	`*** topic/#openmoko by paulproteus -> OpenMoko Community Lounge <> Free Your Phone <> wiki.openmoko.org <> Anyone can buy for $350 starting around mid May. Mass market in September.`
`04:52.23`	`aloril`	`(script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz <sean at openmoko.com> Re: Some light ahead...`
`04:52.27`	`high-rez`	`t-mobile i owned by deutsche telekom, so i'm sure they don't worry about the SEC. That said, all US carriers play with the definition of active sub.`
`04:52.35`	`aloril`	`high-rez: carrier stuff is for September release (unless you mean developers at carriers)`
`04:53.25`	`bhima`	`high-rez: I think the German government would be nastier.`
`04:53.44`	`high-rez`	`aloril: I do mean carriers as developers.`
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`05:02.39`	`aloril`	`http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Buying_Interest_List (but as it says its not preorder page or anything like that, currently best place is to subscribe to announce mailing list)`
`05:02.52`	`aloril`	`(also here should be blurb once openmoko.com changes)`
`05:06.45`	`kito_`	`whoa`
`05:06.48`	`kito_`	`that's a lot of people`
`05:06.56`	`kito_`	`I was 243 on that list`
`05:07.07`	`kito_`	`2000 developers? that would be insane`
`05:10.24`	`bhima`	`Most cellphones suck.`
`05:11.00`	`bhima`	`OTOH, when I look at, say, the level of developer support for Python on series60, while there is a lot, it's not _that_ much, and there are many millions of s60 phones out there.`
`05:11.01`	`wehttamb__`	`lol`
`05:12.03`	`*** join/#openmoko chreekat (n=b@100.235.125.209.transedge.com)`
`05:12.13`	`bhima`	`The local cingular rep was by today, and seemd to think that we wouldn't be getting 3g for a number of years.`
`05:12.24`	`aloril`	`(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Main_Page/zh_cn]] [[Neo1973]]`
`05:12.25`	`kito_`	`bleh`
`05:12.42`	`high-rez`	`bhima: Huh? Are you in the boonies?`
`05:12.44`	`bhima`	`so, that makes the neo1973 and iPhone both significantly more attractive.`
`05:13.01`	`bhima`	`high-rez: I'm in florida. low population density.`
`05:13.07`	`kito_`	`You know, there are lots of phones out there with great hardware specs, but the lack of software to really take advantage makes it all worthless`
`05:13.27`	`bhima`	`kito: mumble mumble windows mobile`
`05:13.32`	`kito_`	`I felt the same way about my Axim X50V`
`05:13.50`	`kito_`	`I wanted to use it as a calculator (symbolic math, etc...)`
`05:14.00`	`kito_`	`its got the power for it, but the software is really lacking`
`05:14.16`	`kito_`	`indeed`
`05:14.44`	`kito_`	`I think a lot of people will buy into the developer batch and then be disappointed because everything ain't done yet`
`05:15.31`	`bhima`	`Some of the dialogs had, say, extra white space.`
`05:15.47`	`bhima`	`The stuff would fit, but you scrolled for extra white space.`
`05:16.37`	`bhima`	`The UIQ platform didn't ship with a phone dialling app.`
`05:16.47`	`bhima`	`Phone vendors needed to write their own.`
`05:18.17`	`lang72`	`kito_: Nokia N800 is not a phone, but they do have issues. That is probably one of several reasons why they do not push it, but sell it to the open source crowd`
`05:18.43`	`lang72`	`kito_: The issues is small, but all over in the firmware`
`05:19.13`	`lang72`	`First impression might be important`
`05:21.04`	`aloril`	`need to stress that this is meant for developers (even if anybody can buy it)`
`05:21.24`	`lang72`	`:)`
`05:21.51`	`bhima`	`You could ask two or three questions on the order form.`
`05:22.26`	`bhima`	`Ask a simple C programming quesiton.`
`05:22.40`	`bhima`	`If they get the answer wrong, warn them that they may not be happy...`
`05:22.59`	`chreekat`	`heh`
`05:23.15`	`Kaloz`	`aloril: i'm not working for atheros ;)`
`05:23.35`	`Kaloz`	`morning btw`
`05:23.39`	`chreekat`	`neuros has done the same thing with their osd (i.e. an unfinished, yet open-to-anybody release), and there really isn't any trouble`
`05:23.40`	`aloril`	`Kaloz: OK, wrong guess`
`05:25.06`	`ppc970`	`oh, the happy winner ;)`
`05:25.23`	`aloril`	`Kaloz: congrats`
`05:25.44`	`ppc970`	`yeah, great research`
`05:26.05`	`Kaloz`	`thanks :) as i'm already a phase0 guy and will get one anyways, the second free one will land at another openwrt developer ;)`
`05:26.12`	`Kaloz`	`yeah, we are here to conquer`
`05:26.13`	`Kaloz`	`:P`
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`05:30.09`	`Kaloz`	`you cna be sure`
`05:30.10`	`wehttamb__`	`yea`
`05:30.10`	`Kaloz`	`the nokia devs hate symbian - just they have no choice`
`05:30.19`	`Kaloz`	`creating a linux based platform yourself is quite some job`
`05:30.40`	`Kaloz`	`if you can use someone else's, than you're set`
`05:32.27`	`aloril`	`Nokia doesn't have touchscreen products except N770/N800?`
`05:32.43`	`bhima`	`I think they have some obscure chinese ones.`
`05:32.48`	`bhima`	`Nokia makes one UIQ phone.`
`05:34.22`	`aloril`	`guess: reason is that it's major coding effort to get touchscreen support in their Symbian applications`
`05:36.34`	`bhima`	`The UI doesn't lend itself well to touch screen.`
`05:38.00`	`bhima`	`Nokia's putting a lot of effort into symbian. They now have many more POSIX APIs on it.`
`05:38.28`	`high-rez`	`Nokia is good at kicking dead horses, long after they've begun to smell bad.`
`05:39.20`	`high-rez`	`i've got one of those somewhere`
`05:39.38`	`*** join/#openmoko _law_ (n=law@mail.stiftadmont.at)`
`05:41.57`	`bhima`	`it was cheap, and runs s60.`
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`06:03.58`	`ppc970`	`bed time... bye`
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`06:41.24`	`aloril`	`(script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz <sean at openmoko.com> Re: Some light ahead...`
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`06:59.18`	`buz`	`counter`
`06:59.19`	`aloril`	`http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is guess) P1: 2 weeks, 5 days 17:00:41 (19.709 +-3.5 days) (1006;179)`
`06:59.28`	`buz`	`that seems about right ;)`
`06:59.29`	`wehttamb_`	`counter?`
`06:59.29`	`aloril`	`http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is guess) source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; P0: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review; 2 weeks, 5 days 17:00:32 (19.709 +-3.5 days) for devices for ANYBODY for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-05-13); 4 months, 3 weeks (144.209 +-15.0 days) for mass market (2007-09-15): see topic for more info (1007;179)`
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`07:04.00`	`Hopscotch`	`good morning`
`07:11.24`	`aloril`	`(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[WiFi_support_in_OpenMoko]] [[Neo1973]] [[User:Arthur_Dent]] [[FAQ]] [[Talk:Main_Page]]`
`07:11.36`	`Rakshasa`	`morgen`
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`07:16.13`	`TRIsoft`	`morning`
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`07:21.39`	`aloril`	`latest Sean mail seems to confirm that wifi talk in announcement pertains to P1.5`
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`07:31.38`	`zecke`	`mickey\|bbiab: tell the o-hand gang to commit moko_paned_window_set_lower_pane, moko_paned_window_set_upper_pa`
`07:34.44`	`hrw`	`morning`
`07:34.52`	`hrw`	`zecke: I will tell them`
`07:36.00`	`zecke`	`hrw: is thomas on irc?`
`07:36.19`	`zecke`	`!ombug 513`
`07:36.20`	`cdbot2`	`* * Bug 513, Status: NEW, Created: Unknown`
`07:36.21`	`cdbot2`	`* * autobuild-reports(AT)openmoko.org: openmoko-dates-0.1+svnnow-r8_0_0_450-do_compile`
`07:36.22`	`cdbot2`	`* * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=513`
`07:37.51`	`hrw`	`zecke: as thos if is`
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`07:49.59`	`Brade1`	`hi`
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`07:54.53`	`wehttamb_`	`how do i emulate openmoko on my ubuntu computer`
`07:55.15`	`*** join/#openmoko PiTT (n=pitt@75.80.8.127) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`07:55.16`	`*** join/#openmoko slomo (n=slomo@ubuntu/member/slomo) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`07:55.28`	`*** join/#openmoko jdav (n=james@d142-179-3-51.bchsia.telus.net)`
`07:56.07`	`aloril`	`faq?`
`07:56.07`	`aloril`	`See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ`
`07:56.16`	`wehttamb_`	`i would like to look at the interface`
`07:56.55`	`aloril`	`wehttamb_: see above link: you can run software directly or in qemu`
`07:57.36`	`wehttamb_`	`ok`
`07:58.45`	`*** join/#openmoko kW_ (n=kwkw@ip-58-28-132-179.ubs-dsl.xnet.co.nz)`
`08:03.26`	`*** join/#openmoko cbaird- (n=cbaird@brushtail.apana.org.au)`
`08:04.07`	`*** join/#openmoko LaF0rge (n=laforge@sunbeam.ipv6.gnumonks.org) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`08:04.07`	`*** join/#openmoko hadara_ (i=hadara@2001:7d0:0:1:2d0:b7ff:feb7:f667) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`08:04.07`	`*** join/#openmoko inz (i=inz@maemo-hackers.org) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`08:04.07`	`*** join/#openmoko KeKeSeB (n=kekeseb@cl-306.bru-01.be.sixxs.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`08:05.10`	`*** part/#openmoko jgm (n=jgm@host-87-74-179-156.bulldogdsl.com)`
`08:05.14`	`*** join/#openmoko TobiX_ (i=tobias@zoidberg.org)`
`08:05.15`	`*** join/#openmoko Paavo_ (i=jplauril@a88-113-2-185.elisa-laajakaista.fi)`
`08:05.16`	`*** join/#openmoko robtaylo1 (n=robtaylo@63-99-9-131.slicehost.net)`
`08:05.17`	`*** join/#openmoko Jeroen__ (i=jeroen@neonescio.viaisn.org)`
`08:05.21`	`*** join/#openmoko Mirv_ (n=tajyrink@vipunen.hut.fi)`
`08:05.22`	`*** join/#openmoko vtervo_ (n=vtervo@vipunen.hut.fi)`
`08:07.28`	`*** join/#openmoko borg_ (n=olaf@80.149.17.21)`
`08:07.43`	`wehttamb_`	`im folowing these instructions http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko_under_QEMU is that what im meant to do?`
`08:12.22`	`*** join/#openmoko LaF0rge (n=laforge@sunbeam.ipv6.gnumonks.org) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`08:12.22`	`*** join/#openmoko hadara_ (i=hadara@2001:7d0:0:1:2d0:b7ff:feb7:f667) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`08:12.22`	`*** join/#openmoko inz (i=inz@maemo-hackers.org) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`08:12.22`	`*** join/#openmoko KeKeSeB (n=kekeseb@cl-306.bru-01.be.sixxs.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`08:12.51`	`*** join/#openmoko jdav (n=james@d142-179-3-51.bchsia.telus.net)`
`08:13.02`	`*** join/#openmoko Zenton (n=vicente@212.166.192.135)`
`08:16.30`	`aloril`	`probably easiest way`
`08:21.40`	`*** join/#openmoko [dev]Viper (n=huh@85.14.21.166)`
`08:21.44`	`*** join/#openmoko atla (n=atla@p3EE3EDC5.dip.t-dialin.net)`
`08:26.21`	`*** join/#openmoko Kaloz_ (i=kaloz@openwrt.org)`
`08:27.36`	`*** join/#openmoko etf\|work (n=etf\|work@proxy.salfordsoftware.co.uk)`
`08:27.44`	`*** join/#openmoko Dodji (n=dodji@host81-156-120-160.range81-156.btcentralplus.com)`
`08:29.27`	`*** join/#openmoko jdav (n=james@d142-179-3-51.bchsia.telus.net)`
`08:35.29`	`*** join/#openmoko pvanhoof (n=pvanhoof@43.64-66-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be)`
`08:36.55`	`*** join/#openmoko florian (n=fuchs@217.146.132.69)`
`08:37.28`	`florian`	`good morning`
`08:37.38`	`*** join/#openmoko Stephmw (n=steph@212.69.51.139)`
`08:39.27`	`*** join/#openmoko apardo (n=apardo@87.217.145.217)`
`08:39.27`	`Stephmw`	`'mornin`
`08:39.28`	`hrw`	`hi Stephmw florian`
`08:47.34`	`*** join/#openmoko disguy__ (i=ariel@gateway/tor/x-597e86298c603a74)`
`08:47.39`	`*** join/#openmoko pengwen (n=pengwen@123.80-203-38.nextgentel.com)`
`08:47.58`	`pengwen`	`Free my phone! please!`
`08:49.42`	`*** join/#openmoko LaF0rge (n=laforge@sunbeam.ipv6.gnumonks.org) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`08:49.42`	`*** join/#openmoko hadara_ (i=hadara@2001:7d0:0:1:2d0:b7ff:feb7:f667) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`08:49.42`	`*** join/#openmoko inz (i=inz@maemo-hackers.org) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`08:49.43`	`*** join/#openmoko KeKeSeB (n=kekeseb@cl-306.bru-01.be.sixxs.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`08:49.57`	`Rakshasa`	`Just drive into the woods, and release it into the wild. =P`
`08:50.53`	`pengwen`	`Phone Software Liberation Front?`
`08:51.07`	`Hopscotch`	`nope, Liberation Front for Phone Software`
`08:51.59`	`pengwen`	`like this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_Gnome_Liberation_Front`
`08:52.48`	`Hopscotch`	`did you ever go to eastern germany?`
`08:53.03`	`CIA-16`	`openmoko: 03laforge * r1827 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/src/gsmd/unsolicited.c: zero LAC and CI if +CREG is 0 / 2 (and not 1). (Closes: #454)`
`08:53.25`	`ewon`	`counter`
`08:53.26`	`aloril`	`http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is guess) P1: 2 weeks, 5 days 15:06:34 (19.630 +-3.5 days) (1008;179)`
`08:55.32`	`*** join/#openmoko apardo_ (n=apardo@87.217.145.14)`
`08:56.24`	`aloril`	`(script) openmoko-devel: Werner Almesberger <werner at openmoko.org> Re: Bricked?`
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`08:59.00`	`*** join/#openmoko kW__ (n=kwkw@ip-58-28-132-179.ubs-dsl.xnet.co.nz)`
`09:00.24`	`hrw`	`"there is no such thing as big enough desk - there are not yet cluttered ones" - is it proper English?`
`09:01.29`	`so_solid_moo`	`"There is no such thing as a big enough desk - just ones which are not yet cluttered"`
`09:01.35`	`*** join/#openmoko LaF0rge (n=laforge@sunbeam.ipv6.gnumonks.org) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`09:01.35`	`*** join/#openmoko hadara_ (i=hadara@2001:7d0:0:1:2d0:b7ff:feb7:f667) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`09:01.36`	`*** join/#openmoko inz (i=inz@maemo-hackers.org) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`09:01.36`	`*** join/#openmoko KeKeSeB (n=kekeseb@cl-306.bru-01.be.sixxs.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`09:01.36`	`so_solid_moo`	`any English speaker would understand what you said the first time, though`
`09:05.56`	`Rakshasa`	`I was wondering about the stylus. I've no experience with touchscreen devices, so I must ask; Could I get a stylus for a different ts phone, say some sony-ericsson, and use it with neo?`
`09:06.15`	`zecke`	`sure`
`09:06.19`	`Rakshasa`	`good`
`09:06.51`	`roh`	`hi Rakshasa :) youre the guy from rtorrent, right?`
`09:07.09`	`*** join/#openmoko apardo_ (n=apardo@87.217.144.29)`
`09:07.16`	`Rakshasa`	`roh: what's rtorrent? =P`
`09:07.30`	`Rakshasa`	`lol`
`09:07.39`	`roh`	`g`
`09:07.43`	`Rakshasa`	`http://libtorrent.rakshasa.no`
`09:07.43`	`Rakshasa`	`XD`
`09:07.58`	`Rakshasa`	`No, I aint him.`
`09:08.17`	`roh`	`;)`
`09:12.24`	`aloril`	`(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Neo1973]]`
`09:12.50`	`*** join/#openmoko woglinde_ (n=heinold@irkutsk.mi.fu-berlin.de)`
`09:13.02`	`woglinde_`	`counter`
`09:13.03`	`aloril`	`http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is guess) P1: 2 weeks, 5 days 14:46:56 (19.616 +-3.5 days) (1009;179)`
`09:13.15`	`woglinde_`	`hm`
`09:13.19`	`woglinde_`	`one week added`
`09:14.12`	`CIA-16`	`openmoko: 03laforge * r1828 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/gta01-pcf50606.patch:`
`09:14.12`	`CIA-16`	`openmoko: * remove bogus outdated comment about missing check for overvoltage`
`09:14.12`	`CIA-16`	`openmoko: * printk warning message if somebody tries to set an overvoltage`
`09:14.44`	`guaqua`	`hrw: or "there is no such thing as big enough desk, just ones that aren't cluttered yet"`
`09:14.45`	`*** join/#openmoko woglinde (n=heinold@irkutsk.mi.fu-berlin.de)`
`09:14.47`	`*** join/#openmoko morricone (i=foobar@dslb-084-057-164-065.pools.arcor-ip.net)`
`09:16.05`	`*** join/#openmoko inz (i=inz@maemo-hackers.org) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`09:16.05`	`stefan_schmidt`	`woglinde_: Already read Sean update?`
`09:16.05`	`stefan_schmidt`	`woglinde_: The date is the first production run.`
`09:16.14`	`*** join/#openmoko LaF0rge (n=laforge@sunbeam.ipv6.gnumonks.org) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`09:16.15`	`*** join/#openmoko hadara_ (i=hadara@2001:7d0:0:1:2d0:b7ff:feb7:f667) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`09:16.15`	`*** join/#openmoko KeKeSeB (n=kekeseb@cl-306.bru-01.be.sixxs.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`09:16.20`	`*** join/#openmoko borg_ (n=olaf@80.149.17.21)`
`09:16.22`	`*** part/#openmoko atla^sep (n=atla@p3EE3EDC5.dip.t-dialin.net)`
`09:16.47`	`woglinde`	`stefan hm no`
`09:16.57`	`woglinde`	`maybee its time to subscribe to the lists`
`09:17.40`	`woglinde`	`on which list?`
`09:18.07`	`guaqua`	`so wlan for 1.5 is in the hopes?`
`09:18.33`	`mickeyl`	`morning`
`09:18.41`	`guaqua`	`morning, mickeyl`
`09:18.45`	`mickeyl`	`stefan_schmidt: give me 20 minutes for brewing coffee, then i call you, ok?`
`09:18.59`	`woglinde`	`he mickeyl`
`09:19.04`	`mickeyl`	`hiho woglinde`
`09:19.08`	`*** join/#openmoko TeringTuby (n=maarten@162-117-dyn.ipact.nl)`
`09:19.09`	`mjr`	`guaqua, ambiguous`
`09:19.10`	`mjr`	`"We're almost for sure going to use their AR6K`
`09:19.11`	`mjr`	`chipset in our next product."`
`09:19.32`	`hrw`	`thx`
`09:19.33`	`*** join/#openmoko tigert (n=tigert@nblzone-208-37.nblnetworks.fi)`
`09:19.37`	`mjr`	`I wouldn't count on next product meaning the neo1973 upgrade`
`09:19.38`	`woglinde`	`mroning hrw`
`09:20.21`	`guaqua`	`mjr: so it's either 1.5 or 2`
`09:21.34`	`mjr`	`afaik 1.5 and 2 will be the same hardware`
`09:22.37`	`*** join/#openmoko asdfadf (n=hjg@p54BCB9FE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)`
`09:22.42`	`asdfadf`	`counter`
`09:22.42`	`aloril`	`http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is guess) P1: 2 weeks, 5 days 14:37:17 (19.609 +-3.5 days) (1010;179)`
`09:23.03`	`guaqua`	`or then again, the next one from neo`
`09:23.10`	`stefan_schmidt`	`mickeyl: Is fine. alphaone has some phone troubles so the 20 minutes are good for him too.`
`09:23.27`	`mickeyl`	`oki`
`09:23.32`	`mickeyl`	`stefan_schmidt: send me you landline, if you have one :)`
`09:23.44`	`mickeyl`	`quality is a bit better over landline`
`09:26.12`	`*** join/#openmoko zecke_ (n=ich@dsl-62-220-14-162.berlikomm.net)`
`09:26.54`	`alphaone`	`morning *`
`09:26.59`	`woglinde`	`hi alphaone`
`09:27.33`	`alphaone`	`mickeyl: Clever me forgot the charger of his cell phone.`
`09:27.41`	`alphaone`	`So I'll have to improvise`
`09:27.51`	`mickeyl`	`hehe`
`09:27.58`	`mickeyl`	`got a landline anywhere?`
`09:28.01`	`roh`	`morning`
`09:28.05`	`woglinde`	`hi roh`
`09:28.09`	`mickeyl`	`morning roh`
`09:28.15`	`mickeyl`	`roh: when are you in .tw?`
`09:28.34`	`roh`	`mickeyl from 9th to 16th of may`
`09:29.43`	`*** join/#openmoko LaF0rge (n=laforge@sunbeam.ipv6.gnumonks.org) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`09:29.43`	`*** join/#openmoko hadara_ (i=hadara@2001:7d0:0:1:2d0:b7ff:feb7:f667) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`09:29.43`	`*** join/#openmoko KeKeSeB (n=kekeseb@cl-306.bru-01.be.sixxs.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`09:29.46`	`wehttamb_`	`on the openmoko how do you open the text input onscreen keyboard thing?`
`09:29.58`	`stefan_schmidt`	`mickeyl: Got my landline?`
`09:29.58`	`hrw`	`hi mickeyl`
`09:30.10`	`mickeyl`	`stefan_schmidt: yep`
`09:31.51`	`roh`	`did i miss a telco?`
`09:32.05`	`mickeyl`	`hey stefan_schmidt`
`09:32.05`	`mickeyl`	`wehttamb_: use the white rectangle next to the main menu`
`09:32.05`	`mickeyl`	`hey hrw`
`09:32.05`	`mickeyl`	`s/stefan_schmidt/hrw/`
`09:32.31`	`mickeyl`	`roh: no, i'll just discuss with stefan_schmidt and alphaone their OM tasks for the next 4 weeks`
`09:32.34`	`Rakshasa`	`wehttamb_: click the grey box on the left side of the top panel. There's just no icon for the osk yet.`
`09:32.34`	`mickeyl`	`right after my coffee`
`09:33.32`	`*** join/#openmoko borg_ (n=olaf@80.149.17.21) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
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`09:33.42`	`roh`	`mickeyl ah.`
`09:34.03`	`Rakshasa`	`mickeyl: Should the box be white? My monitor can't be that off? O.o`
`09:34.26`	`mickeyl`	`the input monitor applet should be white, yes, because it's broken :)`
`09:34.37`	`Rakshasa`	`But it's grey.`
`09:34.59`	`mickeyl`	`hmm`
`09:35.02`	`mickeyl`	`could be gray`
`09:35.13`	`mickeyl`	`on the device it looks white`
`09:35.14`	`Rakshasa`	`Hmm. most probably`
`09:36.23`	`wehttamb_`	`k`
`09:36.32`	`wehttamb_`	`i wasnt shure what that was`
`09:36.37`	`Rakshasa`	`No, it's grey. I prefer british.`
`09:36.51`	`wehttamb_`	`on my computer the box is grey`
`09:37.04`	`*** join/#openmoko tigert (n=tigert@nblzone-208-37.nblnetworks.fi)`
`09:37.48`	`mickeyl`	`ya`
`09:37.48`	`mickeyl`	`http://scap.linuxtogo.org/ seems grey as well`
`09:38.41`	`*** join/#openmoko ich_ (n=ich@dsl-62-220-14-162.berlikomm.net)`
`09:38.49`	`*** join/#openmoko deepank (n=deepankg@59.178.44.178)`
`09:41.26`	`*** join/#openmoko Stephmw (n=steph@212.69.51.139)`
`09:41.51`	`balrog-kun`	`jserv2: hiya`
`09:42.25`	`[dev]Viper`	`guys, do you think that it will be possible to install openmoko on Qtek 9000 ?`
`09:42.25`	`aloril`	`[dev]Viper: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)`
`09:44.49`	`woglinde`	`deviper maybee`
`09:45.47`	`wehttamb_`	`i gave up on trying to emulate openmoko emulator for linux and just downloaded the windows binays to use in wine`
`09:45.54`	`mickeyl`	`alphaone: phone problems sorted out?`
`09:46.00`	`mickeyl`	`i would be ready now :)`
`09:46.17`	`alphaone`	`mickeyl: Sort of`
`09:46.20`	`mickeyl`	`hehe`
`09:46.24`	`alphaone`	`Give me another sec`
`09:46.30`	`mickeyl`	`alphaone: sure. don't hurry`
`09:48.53`	`woglinde`	`emulate the emulator?`
`09:49.21`	`wehttamb_`	`yea im emulating the emulator`
`09:49.23`	`wehttamb_`	`lol`
`09:52.20`	`alphaone`	`mickeyl: Okay, I think I got the point with the best reception in this room now.`
`09:52.26`	`*** join/#openmoko _ASK (n=chatzill@189.146.143.63)`
`09:52.35`	`stefan_schmidt`	`mickeyl: Guess what phone alphaone is using now... :)`
`09:53.14`	`stefan_schmidt`	`alphaone: Did I steal your opening joke now?`
`09:54.43`	`alphaone`	`stefan_schmidt: Nah`
`09:54.53`	`*** join/#openmoko Magon (n=Magon@archangel.kolej.mff.cuni.cz)`
`09:55.06`	`alphaone`	`Hi Magon`
`09:55.25`	`mickeyl`	`excellent ;)`
`09:55.35`	`mickeyl`	`ok, let me see`
`09:56.01`	`woglinde`	`hehe`
`09:59.42`	`*** join/#openmoko KeKeSeB (n=kekeseb@cl-306.bru-01.be.sixxs.net)`
`09:59.42`	`*** join/#openmoko LaF0rge (n=laforge@sunbeam.ipv6.gnumonks.org)`
`09:59.43`	`Magon`	`hi`
`09:59.43`	`Magon`	`I had bad day yesterday....going to finish survay about fingerwheel today and send`
`10:00.35`	`*** join/#openmoko hadara_ (i=hadara@2001:7d0:0:1:2d0:b7ff:feb7:f667)`
`10:01.27`	`mickeyl`	`alphaone: no go with that damn phone... (need to use a neo next time), calling you right after i finished with stefan_schmidt, ok?`
`10:05.32`	`*** join/#openmoko aesci7E (n=aesci99@221.221.136.123)`
`10:05.42`	`CIA-16`	`openmoko: 03laforge * r1829 10/trunk/oe/packages/openmoko-pim/openmoko-dates_svn.bb: add patch to make openmoko-dates compile with recent mokoui change`
`10:06.08`	`zecke`	`LaF0rge: what is your strategy on mirroring sourcecode?`
`10:06.16`	`*** join/#openmoko mzb (n=ubernut@ppp108-88.static.internode.on.net)`
`10:06.36`	`alphaone`	`mickeyl: Okay`
`10:08.43`	`*** part/#openmoko asdfadf (n=hjg@p54BCB9FE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)`
`10:09.50`	`CIA-16`	`openmoko: 03rob * r1830 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/ (3 files in 2 dirs):`
`10:09.50`	`CIA-16`	`openmoko: 2007-04-25 Rob Bradford <rob@openedhand.com>`
`10:09.50`	`CIA-16`	`openmoko: * libmokoui/moko-scrolled-pane.c: (moko_scrolled_pane_pack),`
`10:09.50`	`CIA-16`	`openmoko: (moko_scrolled_pane_unpack), (moko_scrolled_pane_get_child):`
`10:09.50`	`CIA-16`	`openmoko: * libmokoui/moko-scrolled-pane.h:`
`10:09.51`	`CIA-16`	`openmoko: Improve the API for the MokoScrolledPane widget (see Bugzilla #512.)`
`10:10.26`	`*** join/#openmoko aesci7E (n=aesci99@221.221.136.123)`
`10:12.43`	`*** join/#openmoko asdfadf (n=hjg@p54BCB9FE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)`
`10:14.55`	`aloril`	`wogline_ not anymore present, but for end date actually added only 3 days (its uncertainty that got reduced, especially for lower limit ;-)`
`10:17.21`	`*** join/#openmoko _law_ (n=law@mail.stiftadmont.at)`
`10:19.34`	`aloril`	`mjr: sean's later email in reply to P1.5 query seemed to 'confirm' that WiFi talk is about P1.5`
`10:20.25`	`CIA-16`	`openmoko: 03laforge * r1831 10/trunk/oe/packages/openmoko-pim/openmoko-dates_svn.bb: api change (paned window) has been merged mainline`
`10:23.38`	`*** join/#openmoko quitte (n=quitte@stgt-d9bebc3c.pool.mediaWays.net)`
`10:23.43`	`quitte`	`counter`
`10:23.43`	`aloril`	`http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is guess) P1: 2 weeks, 5 days 13:36:16 (19.567 +-3.5 days) (1011;179)`
`10:24.01`	`quitte`	`aaaahhhrggg`
`10:24.54`	`quitte`	`but +-3.5 days - looks like there was an announcement that didn't make it to the announce list?`
`10:25.30`	`*** join/#openmoko mindcrusher[ro]_ (n=chatzill@astrofizica.fizica.unibuc.ro)`
`10:27.48`	`balrog-kun`	`i've seen a blog entry somewhere`
`10:28.05`	`quitte`	`i just found it in the announce archive,too`
`10:28.52`	`*** join/#openmoko mindcrusher_ (n=chatzill@astrofizica.fizica.unibuc.ro)`
`10:31.35`	`Rakshasa`	`No-one has tried the nokia bl-6c battery yet?`
`10:36.56`	`*** join/#openmoko atla (n=atla@p3EE3EDC5.dip.t-dialin.net)`
`10:37.01`	`*** part/#openmoko atla (n=atla@p3EE3EDC5.dip.t-dialin.net)`
`10:37.03`	`hrw`	`Rakshasa: bl-5c yes (3rdparty one)`
`10:37.08`	`Stephmw`	`Rakshasa: it's only been suggested so far, not read of anyone actually trying`
`10:37.13`	`hrw`	`bl-6c not yet`
`10:37.14`	`mickeyl`	`alphaone: ok, call w/ stefan finished. I'm going to get a newspaper and then call you in 15 minutes.`
`10:37.27`	`alphaone`	`mickeyl: Okay`
`10:37.32`	`mickeyl`	`6c is too big or is it?`
`10:38.39`	`Rakshasa`	`Well, it's said that neo's battery is a bit bigger (thicker) than bl-5c. So is bl-6c, so I thought it would be even better than bl-5c.`
`10:38.55`	`*** join/#openmoko mzb (n=ubernut@ppp108-88.static.internode.on.net)`
`10:39.05`	`hrw`	`Rakshasa: bl-5c fits ok in neo`
`10:39.35`	`hrw`	`Rakshasa: and both (fic and 3rdparty bl-5c) fits in my 3rdparty charger for bl-5c`
`10:40.54`	`*** join/#openmoko buz (n=buz@84-72-54-173.dclient.hispeed.ch)`
`10:40.55`	`Rakshasa`	`Well, i'll try it myself when I get a Neo, if no-one else does before. They only cost 16 euros each.`
`10:42.03`	`Rakshasa`	`hrw: what's the model of the charger? I'd like to find one too. The nokia dt-14 sounds a bit expensive.`
`10:42.12`	`*** join/#openmoko Rac0r (n=rac0r@win3173d.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de)`
`10:43.25`	`hrw`	`http://blog.haerwu.biz/2007/04/18/3rdparty-chargers-for-neo1973/`
`10:43.28`	`hrw`	`totally noname`
`10:44.25`	`Rakshasa`	`bl-6c is reported to fit in almost all nokia phones using bl-5c. Only a bit of filing needed in some cases.`
`10:46.46`	`Rakshasa`	`Seems a bit hard to find noname chargers anywhere here. =P`
`10:48.24`	`Stephmw`	`I'd guess they're not keen on making it easy to source them ;)`
`10:49.55`	`Rakshasa`	`Yeah, they're prolly just some untested, unbranded nokias, sonys etcetra. =P Who'd buy the branded ones anymore.`
`10:51.43`	`*** join/#openmoko shenki_ (n=shenki@ppp91-9.lns10.adl6.internode.on.net)`
`10:52.16`	`hrw`	`Rakshasa: ebay?`
`10:53.09`	`Rakshasa`	`hrw: I'm a bit hesitant on buying anything from ebay what with not having a credit card and all.`
`10:54.27`	`mickeyl`	`alphaone: ring`
`10:54.35`	`*** join/#openmoko disguy__ (i=ariel@gateway/tor/x-0e96792f57230f72)`
`10:54.45`	`alphaone`	`mickeyl: Hmm`
`10:55.07`	`alphaone`	`mickeyl: libgsmd-tool is not saying anything :-(`
`10:55.43`	`*** join/#openmoko cheesy (n=daniel@pd95b5e66.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)`
`10:55.51`	`cheesy`	`counter`
`10:55.51`	`aloril`	`http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is guess) P1: 2 weeks, 5 days 13:04:08 (19.545 +-3.5 days) (1012;179)`
`10:56.18`	`cheesy`	`these delays are killing me!`
`10:57.44`	`*** join/#openmoko ninHer (n=ninHer@79.Red-88-6-201.staticIP.rima-tde.net)`
`10:59.56`	`CIA-16`	`openmoko: 03rob * r1832 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/examples/openmoko-stylus-demo/src/demo-main.c: Fix build problems with new API.`
`11:01.27`	`*** join/#openmoko cbaird (n=cbaird@brushtail.apana.org.au)`
`11:02.25`	`CIA-16`	`openmoko: 03rob * r1833 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/ (3 files in 2 dirs):`
`11:02.25`	`CIA-16`	`openmoko: 2007-04-25 Rob Bradford <rob@openedhand.com>`
`11:02.25`	`CIA-16`	`openmoko: * libmokoui/moko-scrolled-pane.c:`
`11:02.25`	`CIA-16`	`openmoko: (moko_scrolled_pane_pack_with_viewport):`
`11:02.26`	`CIA-16`	`openmoko: * libmokoui/moko-scrolled-pane.h:`
`11:02.28`	`CIA-16`	`openmoko: Add a moko_scrolled_pane_pack_with_viewport function.`
`11:11.24`	`aloril`	`(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User_talk:Arthur_Dent]]`
`11:12.04`	`*** join/#openmoko minime (n=minime@v26038.topnetworks.de)`
`11:12.54`	`*** join/#openmoko ray (i=ray@tapthru/operator/ray)`
`11:13.52`	`*** join/#openmoko asdfadf (n=hjg@p54BCB9FE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)`
`11:16.43`	`*** join/#openmoko woglinde (n=heinold@lalla.mi.fu-berlin.de)`
`11:19.18`	`mickeyl`	`cheesy: us too`
`11:20.27`	`Rakshasa`	`Killing me, killing you, killing all we have...`
`11:20.43`	`zecke`	`wb woglinde`
`11:21.47`	`*** join/#openmoko tim- (n=tim@v26038.topnetworks.de)`
`11:27.08`	`CIA-16`	`openmoko: 03thomas * r1834 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/ (14 files):`
`11:27.08`	`CIA-16`	`openmoko: * Use glib style name for application data struct typedef`
`11:27.08`	`CIA-16`	`openmoko: ("s/MOKO_DIALER_APP_DATA/MokoDialerData/g")`
`11:27.53`	`*** join/#openmoko kW__ (n=kwkw@ip-58-28-132-179.ubs-dsl.xnet.co.nz)`
`11:27.54`	`*** join/#openmoko tim- (n=tim@v26038.topnetworks.de)`
`11:27.55`	`aloril`	`quitte: actually end data in counter moved only 3 days ;-)`
`11:30.41`	`*** join/#openmoko tim- (n=tim@v26038.topnetworks.de)`
`11:32.37`	`aloril`	`(for cheesy above was for cheesy too)`
`11:33.22`	`*** join/#openmoko tim- (n=tim@v26038.topnetworks.de)`
`11:33.33`	`aloril`	`counter_msg http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess)`
`11:33.33`	`aloril`	`aloril changed counter prefix message to http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess)`
`11:33.38`	`aloril`	`(just added article)`
`11:33.59`	`*** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@24.crcr10.xdsl.nauticom.net)`
`11:34.09`	`*** join/#openmoko tim- (n=tim@v26038.topnetworks.de)`
`11:34.25`	`cheesy`	`thanks aloril, but people are waiting since January...`
`11:34.42`	`aloril`	`cheesy: yeah, that includes me too`
`11:34.51`	`cheesy`	`ok :)`
`11:35.47`	`woglinde`	`but its okay`
`11:36.14`	`woglinde`	`other products never hit ther market`
`11:36.21`	`cheesy`	`my phone broke and i lend one and told the owner i will get a new phone in february(and thought i calculated possible delays`
`11:36.23`	`aloril`	`anyway, announcement sounded promising: testing identified only one issue which they have fixed`
`11:36.33`	`Rince`	`counter`
`11:36.33`	`aloril`	`http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: 2 weeks, 5 days 12:23:26 (19.516 +-3.5 days) (1013;179)`
`11:36.34`	`woglinde`	`cheesy g`
`11:36.44`	`woglinde`	`my phone is broken too`
`11:36.55`	`zecke`	`woglinde: well it will hit the market :}`
`11:37.03`	`woglinde`	`zecke my broken phone?`
`11:37.11`	`aloril`	`except it sounded that if there is a big demand, not all might get it May`
`11:37.15`	`woglinde`	`I can hit you with it`
`11:37.16`	`zecke`	`woglinde: other phones`
`11:37.39`	`*** join/#openmoko tim- (n=tim@v26038.topnetworks.de)`
`11:38.04`	`*** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@24.crcr10.xdsl.nauticom.net)`
`11:38.50`	`*** join/#openmoko tim- (n=tim@v26038.topnetworks.de)`
`11:38.51`	`woglinde`	`hm I should mesaure the payload of diffrent jvm's`
`11:39.54`	`guaqua`	`definitely`
`11:40.44`	`*** join/#openmoko wooKieface (n=benjamin@x1-6-00-03-2f-29-99-b9.k957.webspeed.dk)`
`11:40.47`	`woglinde`	`http://c1.complang.tuwien.ac.at/cacaowiki/Nokia770Howto`
`11:40.49`	`woglinde`	`hm`
`11:41.04`	`woglinde`	`9 mb for classpath`
`11:41.31`	`*** join/#openmoko atla (n=atla@p3EE3EDC5.dip.t-dialin.net)`
`11:42.00`	`*** join/#openmoko chiahsin (n=chiahsin@125-229-192-73.dynamic.hinet.net)`
`11:42.28`	`*** join/#openmoko bh1 (n=bh1@zux006-058-029.adsl.green.ch)`
`11:45.07`	`*** join/#openmoko minime (n=minime@v26038.topnetworks.de)`
`11:51.05`	`zecke`	`woglinde: gcj is all you need`
`11:51.44`	`jserv2`	`balrog-kun: great work regarding usb gadget emulation!`
`11:52.13`	`woglinde`	`zecke if you say`
`11:52.18`	`jserv2`	`cacao-cldc implementation could be heavily reduced.`
`11:52.24`	`univac`	`jserv2: he is a master ;)`
`11:52.47`	`*** part/#openmoko atla (n=atla@p3EE3EDC5.dip.t-dialin.net)`
`11:53.50`	`woglinde`	`okay I am off for fpga programming`
`11:53.51`	`*** join/#openmoko unmadindu (n=sayamind@gnu-india/admin/unmadindu)`
`11:54.19`	`*** join/#openmoko alex-weej (n=alex@halls-129-31-82-59.hor.ic.ac.uk)`
`11:55.10`	`*** join/#openmoko unmadindu (n=sayamind@gnu-india/admin/unmadindu)`
`11:55.19`	`buz`	`mhh you dont need most of classpath on a phone now do you`
`11:55.58`	`guaqua`	`as long as it isn't a crippled one`
`11:59.22`	`buz`	`j2me is crippled by design`
`12:02.44`	`florian`	`Yes that would be pretty nice to have...`
`12:06.44`	`Stephmw`	`it's nice that at least the CLI bits work`
`12:07.04`	`*** join/#openmoko disguy__ (i=ariel@gateway/tor/x-86314b10f6fa9d04)`
`12:07.06`	`Stephmw`	`the GUI bindings shouldn't be too onerous as GTK is already supported on the full GNU Classpath`
`12:08.06`	`*** join/#openmoko mickey\|sun (n=mickeyl@e180169141.adsl.alicedsl.de)`
`12:08.17`	`*** join/#openmoko kW_ (n=kwkw@ip-58-28-132-179.ubs-dsl.xnet.co.nz)`
`12:10.23`	`*** join/#openmoko kawee (n=kwkw@ip-58-28-132-179.ubs-dsl.xnet.co.nz)`
`12:12.18`	`*** join/#openmoko ajturner (n=ajturner@c-68-42-68-205.hsd1.mi.comcast.net)`
`12:13.03`	`buz`	`i agree j2me would be nice`
`12:13.15`	`buz`	`full j2se even nicer`
`12:13.28`	`*** join/#openmoko ajturner (n=ajturner@c-68-42-68-205.hsd1.mi.comcast.net)`
`12:13.31`	`buz`	`(j2me gui toolkit is a PoS)`
`12:13.32`	`Stephmw`	`buz: full j2se is likely to be there first`
`12:13.36`	`hrw`	`and 512M card for swap?`
`12:13.47`	`buz`	`Stephmw: i thought j2me was completely open source already?`
`12:14.04`	`Stephmw`	`buz: no GUI bindings for openmoko`
`12:14.23`	`Stephmw`	`hrw: doesn't apply to j2me`
`12:14.43`	`hrw`	`Stephmw: but to j2se`
`12:14.57`	`Stephmw`	`hrw: which can be mitigated with good development`
`12:15.02`	`*** join/#openmoko msroest (n=msroest@coloc1.beyond.ca)`
`12:15.16`	`*** join/#openmoko cbaird (n=cbaird@brushtail.apana.org.au)`
`12:15.23`	`hrw`	`Stephmw: maybe. most of java apps which I used sucked most of system memory`
`12:15.48`	`Stephmw`	`hrw: I agree, most do. They're all written from the same perspective as current PC games...`
`12:15.57`	`Stephmw`	`hrw: "who cares about memory?"`
`12:16.06`	`Stephmw`	`hrw: which is frankly stupid and inconsiderate`
`12:16.19`	`hrw`	`and I have only 2.1G ram`
`12:16.25`	`Stephmw`	`haha`
`12:16.29`	`buz`	`however, it's often not very wrong`
`12:16.37`	`buz`	`most java apps arent running all day side to side to other apps`
`12:16.49`	`Stephmw`	`it's still a bad attitude`
`12:16.55`	`Stephmw`	`poor forward-thinking`
`12:17.10`	`buz`	`i think java just allocates as much memory as it gets`
`12:17.19`	`buz`	`its not like the apps wont run on 512mb`
`12:17.35`	`hrw`	`buz: jedit/eclipse/azureus are apps which usually are used with other apps`
`12:17.46`	`Stephmw`	`buz: the problem is the defaults for the VM`
`12:17.48`	`buz`	`i didnt find eclipse THAT bad`
`12:18.01`	`Stephmw`	`buz: you can easily set up a fairly comprehensive GUI app with under 32mb usage`
`12:18.11`	`buz`	`i know`
`12:18.34`	`buz`	`heck i even done some small scale monte carlo stuff in j2se`
`12:18.37`	`Stephmw`	`eclipse defaults to 256mb...`
`12:18.43`	`Stephmw`	`rather than leaving it up to the VM to decide`
`12:18.48`	`buz`	`which imho isn't all that crazy for a IDE`
`12:19.00`	`Stephmw`	`granted, but it should just grow as needed`
`12:19.40`	`Stephmw`	`and address the performance impact of extra memory allocation with better architecture`
`12:19.40`	`Stephmw`	`ahem`
`12:19.40`	`Stephmw`	`anyway... j2me is more appropriate to a phone :)`
`12:19.41`	`buz`	`eclipse has grown humongous`
`12:19.50`	`buz`	`and frankly, it didnt help the app`
`12:20.01`	`buz`	`it's still missing basic features really`
`12:20.23`	`Stephmw`	`buz, hrw: btw, you're both referring to CLDC/MIDP2 with regards to crappy GUI framework... CDC and PersonalProfile is more flexible`
`12:20.30`	`Stephmw`	`it can cope with Swing for instance`
`12:20.58`	`buz`	`MIDP2 is what usually runs on phones`
`12:21.11`	`buz`	`and MIDP2 is already much saner than MIDP1.0`
`12:21.19`	`Stephmw`	`yeah, but it's not mutually exclusive to PP, thankfully`
`12:21.48`	`buz`	`yeah but if i bother with j2me, i want it running on many phones, not just a few select ones with PP`
`12:22.16`	`Stephmw`	`then do what Opera do... roll your own widget set (or use J2MEPolish)`
`12:22.32`	`buz`	`or dont code for j2me at all`
`12:22.51`	`Stephmw`	`our experience of MIDP2 usage is that few developers bother with the 'native' implementation`
`12:22.52`	`buz`	`(to be fair, these days i dont code much of anything)`
`12:23.12`	`Stephmw`	`they all just bring up a Canvas and do their own stuff... including fonts`
`12:23.14`	`*** join/#openmoko dneary (n=dneary@251.9.39-62.rev.gaoland.net)`
`12:23.19`	`buz`	`cant really fault them`
`12:23.24`	`Stephmw`	`neither can we :)`
`12:23.38`	`Stephmw`	`it's a bitch to have to fix bugs in the native impl when we clearly can show it's not used much :)`
`12:23.52`	`*** join/#openmoko Marex (n=Marex@85.132.236.161)`
`12:27.34`	`Stephmw`	`bwahahaha! it's alive, ALIVE!`
`12:27.40`	`Stephmw`	`.. finally fixed my bug :)`
`12:30.43`	`*** join/#openmoko minime (n=tim@v26038.topnetworks.de)`
`12:31.11`	`*** join/#openmoko Rac0r (n=rac0r@win3173d.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de)`
`12:32.47`	`*** join/#openmoko minime (n=tim@v26038.topnetworks.de)`
`12:50.14`	`balrog-kun`	`thanks jserv2 :)`
`12:52.44`	`jserv2`	`balrog-kun: by the way, could you provide some example usbnet scripts into qemu-neo1973 like the one in oh's poky?`
`12:54.16`	`balrog-kun`	`jserv2: i couldn't get usb-net with slirp to work reliably on my x86_64 pc, there must be some bugs`
`12:54.43`	`jserv2`	`ok`
`12:55.13`	`balrog-kun`	`the poky scripts were added by richard purdie, i haven't used them`
`12:55.18`	`*** join/#openmoko unmadindu (n=sayamind@gnu-india/admin/unmadindu)`
`12:55.33`	`*** join/#openmoko minime_ (n=minime@v26038.topnetworks.de)`
`12:55.43`	`jserv2`	`but it would be nice if we could ssh into emulated neo1973. :)`
`12:56.05`	`jserv2`	`then, I could develop openmoko applications on Win32.`
`12:56.08`	`balrog-kun`	`yes, i need to add BT and gadget usb support`
`12:56.19`	`balrog-kun`	`jserv2: ewwwwwwww`
`12:56.29`	`*** join/#openmoko asdfadf (n=hjg@p54bcb9fe.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)`
`12:56.30`	`balrog-kun`	`why would you want to this :p`
`12:56.42`	`asdfadf`	`asdadf�gh`
`12:56.47`	`jserv2`	`balrog-kun: it is an option indeed.`
`12:57.08`	`balrog-kun`	`maybe MokoMakefile could have some scripts for the networking added`
`12:57.18`	`minime`	`as`
`12:57.49`	`jserv2`	`also, it would be easy to promote/demo openmoko to others living in Win32 world. :P`
`12:58.32`	`*** join/#openmoko prpplague^2 (n=dave@mail.americanmicrosystems.com)`
`12:58.37`	`balrog-kun`	`:) i'm not sure that they will want to "free their phone"`
`12:58.43`	`balrog-kun`	`they will just appreciate the graphics`
`12:58.49`	`jserv2`	`sure!`
`12:59.16`	`jserv2`	`at least "playable"`
`13:03.24`	`balrog-kun`	`it may make bad first impression`
`13:03.39`	`jserv2`	`yes`
`13:03.40`	`*** join/#openmoko minime (n=minime@v26038.topnetworks.de)`
`13:06.23`	`Stephmw`	`it made a nice 'cool graphics' impression here`
`13:07.08`	`Stephmw`	`can you set breakpoints on software running within the emulator from an IDE outside it?`
`13:07.22`	`balrog-kun`	`the graphics are nice, but i can't say anything good about stability or speed at the moment`
`13:07.34`	`balrog-kun`	`Stephmw: with kdevelop it may be possible`
`13:07.42`	`balrog-kun`	`kdevelop i think has some gdb frontend`
`13:08.17`	`Stephmw`	`ideally, it should be possible to launch the emulator from within the IDE and break in one of the apps`
`13:08.19`	`balrog-kun`	`err, not on all software in the emulator`
`13:08.25`	`Stephmw`	`without manual intervention on the emulator side`
`13:08.29`	`balrog-kun`	`only on the kernel/bootloader side`
`13:08.39`	`Stephmw`	`ah, hmm`
`13:08.50`	`Stephmw`	`maybe with some scripting help on the emulator side?`
`13:09.20`	`balrog-kun`	`i'm sure there are some methods to debug userspace applications too, but that's not so easy as with the kernel`
`13:09.25`	`balrog-kun`	`yes, some scripts may exist`
`13:09.45`	`balrog-kun`	`this would be equivalent to debugging programs with a hardware debugger`
`13:10.09`	`balrog-kun`	`(it's certainly possible)`
`13:11.24`	`aloril`	`(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User_talk:Arthur_Dent]]`
`13:12.45`	`Stephmw`	`balrog-kun: great`
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`13:13.11`	`Stephmw`	`balrog-kun: that would make it feature-complete with other emulation methods I've used in-house`
`13:13.22`	`Stephmw`	`balrog-kun: and hence interesting replacements`
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`13:15.09`	`balrog-kun`	`Stephmw: it wouldn't have any advantage over debugging programs with gdb/strace running inside qemu afact`
`13:15.32`	`Stephmw`	`balrog-kun: the only advantage is lack of interaction needed on the emulator side`
`13:15.41`	`Stephmw`	`balrog-kun: which makes it easier on the developer`
`13:15.47`	`balrog-kun`	`i guess you could even run entire kdevelop on openmoko`
`13:17.02`	`balrog-kun`	`or perhaps the optimal thing to do if you don't want to compile the apps for x86, is running gdbserver on the target and gdb on the host`
`13:17.15`	`Stephmw`	`balrog-kun: for timing-related bugs, it's much better to have as little of your debugging framework on the 'device'`
`13:17.35`	`bhima`	`it would obviously be fragile.`
`13:17.55`	`balrog-kun`	`qemu is quite bad at helping debugging (or sometimes at even reproducing) timing-related bugs`
`13:20.10`	`bhima`	`(the idea being, swapping phones without swapping SIM cards. If you only need intermittent and non-timing-critical SIM transactions, it could work)`
`13:21.39`	`Stephmw`	`bhima: that sounds like a man-in-the-middle waiting to happen`
`13:22.24`	`bhima`	`stephmw: There's an official bluetooth profile for remote SIM access already. :)`
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`13:23.23`	`buz`	`are you sure that isnt simply to access address data on the sim?`
`13:23.48`	`bhima`	`buz: Yes. It is explicitly for things like car phones.`
`13:24.15`	`bhima`	`buz: In fact, standard AT command set foo has let you get the SIM card address data for decades.`
`13:24.33`	`bhima`	`(well, for at least one decade in my experience. :)`
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`13:32.21`	`CIA-16`	`openmoko: 03thomas * r1835 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/openmoko-dialer-window-incoming.c: * Convert files to UNIX format`
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`13:47.55`	`PBeck`	`tag`
`13:49.33`	`buz`	`i would nearly say abend ;)`
`13:49.47`	`balrog-kun`	`moin`
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`13:54.31`	`bhima`	`Good morning.`
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`14:02.31`	`CIA-16`	`openmoko: 03thomas * r1836 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/ (3 files): * Remove spurious carriage returns`
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`14:10.57`	`CIA-16`	`openmoko: 03thomas * r1837 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/ (4 files): * Remove libgsmd event code`
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`14:27.50`	`CIA-16`	`openmoko: 03rob * r1838 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-contacts/ (ChangeLog src/contacts-omoko.c src/contacts-omoko.h):`
`14:27.50`	`CIA-16`	`openmoko: 2007-04-25 Rob Bradford <rob@openedhand.com>`
`14:27.50`	`CIA-16`	`openmoko: * src/contacts-omoko.c: (create_main_window):`
`14:27.50`	`CIA-16`	`openmoko: * src/contacts-omoko.h:`
`14:27.50`	`CIA-16`	`openmoko: Switch to using MokoScrolledPane rather than MokoDetailsWindow.`
`14:27.52`	`CIA-16`	`openmoko: Pack the top navigation area into MokoScrolledPane.`
`14:28.10`	`mickey_l`	`robster: yay!`
`14:28.42`	`robster`	`mickey_l: yeh, replacing all use of MokoDetailsWindow to MokoScrolledPane`
`14:28.54`	`robster`	`i think we might need to look at some size requesting`
`14:28.56`	`mickey_l`	`robster: thanks. i'm going to catch up all other apps this nite as well`
`14:29.14`	`robster`	`mickey_l: i'm doing all ours, i can do the ones in applications/ too.`
`14:29.25`	`parag0n_`	`Anyone can buy for $350 starting around mid May. mid may!`
`14:29.25`	`mickey_l`	`robster: oh thanks, that'd be a relief`
`14:29.30`	`robster`	`mickey_l: no problem`
`14:29.48`	`mickey_l`	`robster: re. size requesting. please use moko_paned_window_set_ratio for now`
`14:31.24`	`mickey_l`	`if you take care of migrating the apps, I'm going to work on libmokogsmd tonite, so that you can start to use it in dialer and today`
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`14:37.54`	`mickey_l`	`but before this happens, i need to utilize the sun while i can...`
`14:38.16`	`LarstiQ`	`parag0n_: I'll see when I can order`
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`14:43.02`	`robster`	`mickey\|bbiab: there just need to be a sensible default ratio, e.g. 1:1`
`14:44.20`	`mickey\|bbiab`	`robster: right. let's do this in moko_paned_window, when two panes are added`
`14:45.14`	`mickey\|bbiab`	`i'll do this in a couple of hours`
`14:45.34`	`mickey\|bbiab`	`because this also belongs to the things that ideally are saved as state per app`
`14:45.40`	`mickey\|bbiab`	`s/ideally/eventually/`
`14:45.53`	`mickey\|bbiab`	`btw.`
`14:46.03`	`mickey\|bbiab`	`i'd also like to see contacts and dates using MokoTreeView`
`14:46.07`	`mickey\|bbiab`	`instead of GtkTreeView directly`
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`14:46.13`	`mickey\|bbiab`	`since MokoTreeView will gain some more specifics eveutally`
`14:46.21`	`parag0n_`	`i wouldnt mind waiting for it, if they'd just let me pre order`
`14:46.37`	`parag0n_`	`i'm not very goood at holding onto money for a long period of time ;)`
`14:48.46`	`LarstiQ`	`heh`
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`15:05.22`	`simon_`	`counter?`
`15:05.22`	`aloril`	`http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; P0: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review; 2 weeks, 5 days 08:54:37 (19.371 +-3.5 days) for devices for ANYBODY for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-05-13); 4 months, 2 weeks, 6 days (143.871 +-15.0 days) for mass market (2007-09-15): see topic for more info (1014;179)`
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`15:07.33`	`TRIsoft`	`gtg cu`
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`15:13.22`	`Elrond`	`counter`
`15:13.22`	`aloril`	`http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: 2 weeks, 5 days 08:46:37 (19.366 +-3.5 days) (1015;179)`
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`15:40.46`	`CIA-16`	`openmoko: 03rob * r1839 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/ (ChangeLog libmokoui/moko-paned-window.c): (log message trimmed)`
`15:40.46`	`CIA-16`	`openmoko: 2007-04-25 Rob Bradford <rob@openedhand.com>`
`15:40.46`	`CIA-16`	`openmoko: * libmokoui/moko-paned-window.c: (moko_paned_window_init),`
`15:40.46`	`CIA-16`	`openmoko: (moko_paned_window_set_ratio):`
`15:40.46`	`CIA-16`	`openmoko: Improve the moko_paned_window_set_ratio function. It's just the ratio`
`15:40.50`	`CIA-16`	`openmoko: of the top half (including menu area and toolbox) to the bottom half.`
`15:40.52`	`CIA-16`	`openmoko: No need to be try and be clever about considering the menu and toolbox`
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`15:48.18`	`PBeck`	`counter`
`15:48.18`	`aloril`	`http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: 2 weeks, 5 days 08:11:41 (19.341 +-3.5 days) (1016;179)`
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`15:55.35`	`SrRaven`	`hehe got pushed back again?`
`15:59.10`	`CIA-16`	`openmoko: 03thomas * r1840 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/ (6 files):`
`15:59.10`	`CIA-16`	`openmoko: * Add callbacks skeleton for MokoGsmdConnection`
`15:59.10`	`CIA-16`	`openmoko: * Remove final libgsmd code`
`15:59.24`	`Vegar`	`SrRaven: check the link`
`15:59.32`	`Vegar`	`might be the final pushback, as I understood it`
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`16:05.29`	`guaqua`	`350 dollars isn't that much, at least with the currencies like this and having euros`
`16:06.13`	`Stephmw`	`yeah, $350 is only 175GBP..`
`16:06.23`	`Stephmw`	`So, where will we be able to come collect?`
`16:07.17`	`guaqua`	`~250 euros`
`16:07.49`	`hrw`	`~change 350 usd to eur`
`16:09.48`	`guaqua`	`the shipping might cost around 30 euros so we're around 300 euros`
`16:10.16`	`Maulkin`	`~change 350 usd into gbp`
`16:10.41`	`Maulkin`	`Hrm... dollar still weak then.`
`16:10.55`	`guaqua`	`i wonder for what money the other cell phone makers would be able to sell their phones if they were operating like fic is right now`
`16:11.23`	`Stephmw`	`how do you mean?`
`16:11.36`	`cjb`	`Maulkin: yeah, weakest for a long time.`
`16:13.11`	`guaqua`	`in the sense that fic isn't probably spending much on marketing and all that stuff`
`16:13.21`	`Stephmw`	`oh, right.`
`16:13.30`	`guaqua`	`so this 350 dollars is basically hardware + software`
`16:13.43`	`Stephmw`	`right, there's not a huge margin`
`16:13.47`	`guaqua`	`and not as much the software either`
`16:13.54`	`Stephmw`	`or the QA`
`16:13.59`	`guaqua`	`that too`
`16:14.08`	`Stephmw`	`damn me, the QA here takes forever :(`
`16:14.31`	`Maulkin`	`Stephmw: write a small script that fakes the unit tests? :)`
`16:14.31`	`aloril`	`Maulkin: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)`
`16:14.49`	`Maulkin`	`...`
`16:14.52`	`Maulkin`	`That was odd.`
`16:15.47`	`Stephmw`	`Maulkin: hah. I'd get drawn and quartered for something like that... the peer review is a big aspect`
`16:16.03`	`Stephmw`	`Maulkin: everything gets tagged with who did what and when ;)`
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`16:16.27`	`Maulkin`	`Stephmw: Aww. Where's the fun in that? :)`
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`16:17.05`	`Stephmw`	`Maulkin: well, a direct benefit is that you only get the really, really funky errors back into R&D to fix... the mundane ones all got fixed at the QA stage`
`16:17.28`	`Stephmw`	`Maulkin: 3 weeks of work for 1-liner fixes is amusing... not.`
`16:17.30`	`Maulkin`	`Stephmw: No "It doesn't work" then? :)`
`16:18.01`	`Stephmw`	`Maulkin: not _anymore_ ./me looks at the long row of handless testers who dared`
`16:20.56`	`Stephmw`	`Maulkin: we now get the... 'I added 500 text fields, moved the selection around for 15mins, waited 8hrs...brayed at the moon... and now it doesn't refresh the screen..."`
`16:21.04`	`Maulkin`	`:)`
`16:21.07`	`Stephmw`	`Maulkin: you get the idea... it's the really tiny 1% of corner cases`
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`16:24.25`	`inz`	`guaqua, if other companies were not marketing, they would have lot less sales and the r&d costs / sold unit would skyrocket, i.e. devices would cost much more`
`16:26.38`	`guaqua`	`i was actually only thinking about the actual hardware costs. the law of supply and demand is a whole another ballgame`
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`16:31.50`	`inz`	`guaqua, well, you can't really separate them, you have to get the money lost to development of the hw back from somewhere`
`16:32.18`	`inz`	`guaqua, sure they could drop the hw prices, if they _stopped_ marketing`
`16:32.28`	`inz`	`guaqua, but I thinkg that's a bit unfair`
`16:33.30`	`guaqua`	`did i say i was separating them?`
`16:35.20`	`inz`	`Well, kind of ;)`
`16:35.41`	`inz`	`Nevermind, I don't understand the subject too well anyway.`
`16:35.55`	`inz`	`I'll let the managers do their s**t, I'll keep to sw development ;`
`16:35.56`	`inz`	`+)`
`16:37.31`	`guaqua`	`i get your point. it's the hardware costs and the actual production prices i was interested in, not in the workings of the market`
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`17:13.11`	`Elrond`	`Is finally known, what all these hardware issues have been?`
`17:13.23`	`Elrond`	`... to the public, I mean.`
`17:14.40`	`abraxa__`	`Sean made a post to the announce list, yes.`
`17:15.06`	`high-rez`	`Well the current problem is a shortage of the displays.`
`17:16.03`	`Elrond`	`abraxa__, high-rez - I meant a) the old issue which delayed everything b) the 50 problematic phones he mentions in the new posting.`
`17:16.31`	`Elrond`	`.. Hmm, or did I miss a posting... checking`
`17:17.20`	`high-rez`	`Elrond: I think there was some interrupt problem, and a jtag issue, but I'm not sure.`
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`17:18.27`	`Elrond`	`high-rez - Ahh. At least some hints. :)`
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`17:57.05`	`Magon`	`do any of you have some tutorial or documentation for X-properties?`
`17:57.18`	`Magon`	`i simply have no idea what exactly it is`
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`18:04.37`	`hrw`	`cu`
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`18:07.52`	`Rakshasa`	`http://www.neochroma.com/`
`18:08.06`	`Rakshasa`	`That and a bt keyboard.. XP`
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`18:18.11`	`Vegar`	`Rakshasa: isn't that just like using a magnifying glass?`
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`18:54.05`	`aloril`	`http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: 2 weeks, 5 days 05:05:55 (19.212 +-3.5 days) (1017;180)`
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`18:55.30`	`mmp`	`boo:( mid may is faar away, when exams start; I won't be able to play with it at all until start of july:(`
`18:56.05`	`mmp`	`motivation to finish exams sooner, though :-)`
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`19:08.56`	`Partizan`	`counter`
`19:08.56`	`aloril`	`http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: 2 weeks, 5 days 04:51:03 (19.202 +-3.5 days) (1018;180)`
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`19:13.24`	`aloril`	`(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[WiFi_support_in_OpenMoko]]`
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`19:17.06`	`buz`	`finally a sane wifi voip phone`
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`19:27.42`	`yacc`	`buz: define sane :)`
`19:28.10`	`yacc`	`buz: Personally, I'll be still missing the kbd, OTOH, we'll be able to add input methods I guess, so one can use one the more advanced ones.`
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`21:12.59`	`aloril`	`http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: 2 weeks, 5 days 02:47:00 (19.116 +-3.5 days) (1019;180)`
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`21:47.24`	`RbdPngn`	`does anyone know if the layered images for the UI mockups are available for download anywhere?`
`21:47.33`	`RbdPngn`	`haven't had much luck searching the wiki for them`
`21:50.34`	`Stephmw`	`I've not heard of them being available`
`21:50.48`	`Stephmw`	`what are you trying to do?`
`21:52.07`	`RbdPngn`	`Stephmw: hoping to do some test implementations of a couple applications using the EFL`
`21:53.34`	`Stephmw`	`RbdPngn: you may have to use the emulated environments in that case, have you run the qemu emulator yet?`
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`21:55.17`	`RbdPngn`	`yeah, had some issues the other day, but the recent partition changes seemed to ahve resolved them`
`21:57.11`	`Stephmw`	`great ;)`
`21:57.46`	`Stephmw`	`one thing I've found between mockups->prototypes is that designers quickly don't keep the images up to date and just use screengrabs from that point on for polishing`
`21:58.07`	`Stephmw`	`the images served their purpose a while back and now it's easier to tweak the implementations`
`21:59.06`	`RbdPngn`	`good point, I'll dig through the source and see what I can find for images in there or the theme`
`21:59.11`	`RbdPngn`	`thanks`
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`22:03.48`	`balrog-kun`	`i thought applications were not supposed to use EFL directly,`
`22:04.38`	`balrog-kun`	`as i understand it the openmoko libs will use EFL as the backend instead of GTK+ so that it really doesn't matter whether clutter or EFL is chosen`
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`22:05.58`	`RbdPngn`	`balrog-kun: that may be the case, but there would need to be some layer implemented between`
`22:06.30`	`RbdPngn`	`balrog-kun: implementing an app or two seems like a reasonable way to get a sense of the requirements to interface the layers`
`22:08.40`	`balrog-kun`	`i wouldn't like the implementation to be tied to EFL`
`22:12.38`	`RbdPngn`	`the current implementations are fairly tied to GTK+, so a direct port would be tied to the target lib`
`22:14.00`	`RbdPngn`	`is there a UI abstraction layer in the works?`
`22:14.45`	`balrog-kun`	`not that i know`
`22:17.40`	`RbdPngn`	`bbl`
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`22:33.25`	`CoreDump\|home`	`hi`
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