IRC log for #openmoko on 20070410

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01:12.18aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wishlist:PilotDB]]
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01:16.17kmeyerlibmatchbox...
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02:38.22dhoHi, is there anybody here who is affiliated with the project or closely with FIC?
02:38.47dhoI need to discuss things regarding GSoC as I need to make a decision about whether to do a port to the Neo1973 or a different project
02:41.18dhoidk if roh or rwhitby or balrog-kun or SpeedEvil would know about this or if there are other people I should contact, and I know it's kind of last minute but if there are any contact suggestions from others, they'd be greatly appreciated
02:41.58rwhitbydho: I can't help you, sorry.
02:42.26dhoOk.
02:43.13dhoAnyway, just for background in case anybody who can happens to see it -- I'm deciding whether to mentor a student re: a port of Plan 9 to the Neo1973
02:43.53dhoBut I guess I sort of need information on whether the hardware platform will change at all, and whether the current qemu will be definitely what FIC ships (and if it's definitely certain that FIC will ship stuff....)
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02:46.16rwhitbydho: I would expect if it was ported to current qemu, then changes to track hardware changes would be straight-forward.
02:48.08dhorwhitby: do you know if there is any idea of whether the current issue is hardware or software related yet?
02:48.41rwhitbydho: no information that I've seen on that.  Not even in mickey|zzZZzz 's blog entry.
02:49.29dhook.
02:50.37kmeyeranyone know how to tell how far along bitbake is?
02:57.34rwhitbykmeyer: XXX/YYY ?
02:58.00kmeyermight be monomakefile, not bitbake
02:58.01kmeyernot sure
02:58.11rwhitbythe last couple of percent for the very first run depends on your network connectivity to retrieve all the remote revisions.
02:58.26rwhitbywhat command is running?
02:58.40kmeyerNOTE: package eds-dbus-1.4.0+svn20070215-r5: task do_fetch: started
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02:59.15rwhitbyah, you're in the middle of bitbake building packages.
02:59.20kmeyermake setup finished already, that's where the last few percent took a while
02:59.24dhoBlah.
02:59.31rwhitbyno real indicator there
02:59.31kmeyerwell, except it has to fetch all the files as well rwhitby
02:59.32dho4 hours to make a decision and both students are sleeping :(
02:59.36kmeyerdarn
02:59.39kmeyerhehe dho
02:59.57kmeyerplan 9 for the neo doesn't sound very practical
03:00.07dhokmeyer: This wouldn't be so hard if this wasn't our first year.
03:00.19kmeyerespecially what with openmoko not being near complete
03:00.30kmeyerdho: our?
03:00.33dhoPlan 9's
03:00.38kmeyerah
03:00.42kmeyerreally?
03:01.10dhoOpenMoko is an entirely different OS with different compilers and everything.
03:01.53dhoMore that the Neo1973 may or may not be available before August
03:02.27dhoAnd I don't want to contribute to a dud project for our first year
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03:03.33kmeyerI thought Plan 9 was old.
03:04.04dhoIn the sense that it has been actively developed for a long time, yes.
03:04.20dhoPlan 9 invented Unicode, among other things.
03:04.50dhoThere are plenty of new and interesting ideas in it that make it a good OS for porting to embedded devices (especially to embedded devices)
03:04.57dhoThere's just not a very big community
03:05.58kmeyerwhat's good about it, again?
03:06.05kmeyerwhy is there a community at all, in other words
03:07.03dhoEverything is a file, and really everything is. Non-ridiculous authentication (PAM is stupid). A kernel small enough to actually understand. You can export anything over the network since it's all files (including devices)
03:07.16dho`sockets' are files, even.
03:07.32dhoIt _is_ actively maintained, contrary to popular belief
03:07.32kmeyerah.
03:07.39dhoPrivate namespaces
03:07.40kmeyeris is actively usable?
03:07.49dhoI run it on my laptop
03:08.01kmeyerwhat sort of laptop?
03:08.03dhoI'm vnc'ed into my OS X machine right now surfing the web and chatting on IRC.
03:08.10dhoCompaq Presario V4000
03:08.19kmeyerwhat sort of parts does that have? :P
03:08.26dhoCentrino, no wireless support, but everything else works.
03:09.19aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Input_Method]]
03:09.34dhoHm, not true, ACPI doesn't. But that's really it.
03:09.48kmeyerhmm
03:10.00dhoAC'97 driver works, but it isn't in the distribution yet.
03:10.05kmeyercan glibc programs run on it?
03:10.08dhoNo
03:11.42kmeyerso that eliminates most GPL programs then eh?
03:12.06dhoMost things you use don't run on Plan 9.
03:12.34dhoWe have a (thin) compatibility layer for POSIX apps that allow us to compile things
03:12.40dhobut those are mostly FreeBSD things
03:13.15dhoI don't particularly care about Linux or GNU* anyway, but gcc doesn't even work, so that eliminates even more.
03:13.28dhoWe have our own compilers.
03:13.30kmeyerwhat compiler do you use then?
03:13.31kmeyerah
03:13.35kmeyermain language is C?
03:13.38dhoYes
03:14.02dhoWe don't have (nor do we want) C++ compilers
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03:14.57dhothat's a cheap shot.
03:15.01kmeyer:-)
03:15.13kmeyerthat's like saying "are there any games that run on linux" :P
03:15.24dhoAnyway, if you don't run Plan 9, you wouldn't know them anyway.
03:15.33dhoThey don't run on Linux or BSD or anything else.
03:17.01kmeyerNOTE: Task failed: /home/moko/build/tmp/work/i486-linux/openmoko-panel-battery-0.0.1+svnnow-r0_1587/temp/log.do_compile.31291
03:17.02kmeyerNOTE: package openmoko-panel-battery-0.0.1+svnnow-r0_1587: task do_compile: failed
03:17.13dhoAnyway, I'm not really here to evangelize Plan 9 or bash anything else, really just to find out if porting it to the Neo1973 is something I should get my student to work on this summer, or if I should choose another student with a project I know can get done.
03:17.44mwester-laptopThat was actually a very serious comment -- I don't know anything at all about plan 9.  I know a bit more now, though.
03:19.30kmeyeris a Live CD worth trying?
03:20.07dhoThe install cd is a livecd
03:20.20dhoI can probably guarantee that you won't be impressed as a casual user
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03:22.44dhoThe browser is crap compared to what you're used to, you'll spend hours trying to figure out how to use upas/fs and Mail (let alone acme and rio), and you'd probably spend most of your interactive time in a vnc window. Like me :)
03:23.14dhoUnless you're interested in OS development and research or networking and filesystems (or any other ``things that Unix fucked up'' niche that Plan 9 covers)
03:23.20dhoYou're probably not going to like Plan 9 at all
03:23.35madewokherddoes it spell "create" correctly?
03:23.47dhoWe don't have a create syscall :)
03:24.06dhoBut yes, the libc function is spelled `create'
03:24.27madewokherdthere's also O_CREAT(E?)
03:24.31dhoOr, I guess it is a syscall.
03:25.16dhoOREAD OWRITE ORDWR OEXEC OTRUNC OCEXEC and ORCLOSE
03:25.52dhoI wonder if we use int0x80.
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03:36.05madewokherdso
03:36.50madewokherdis there somewhere else I can ask stupid questions about this plan 9 thing so I don't disrupt things here?
03:37.16pjz#plan9 ?
03:40.58pjzanyone built MokoMakefile's qemu target?
03:41.29pjzI've got it running, but space isn't working as the power button
03:42.36kmeyerI have errors building.
03:43.01pjzbuilding the qemu target?
03:43.43kmeyer--20:13:43--  http://downloads.openmoko.org/sources/openmoko-panel-battery_svn.openmoko.org_.trunk.src.target.OM-2007.panel-plugins_1587_.tar.gz
03:43.45kmeyerHTTP request sent, awaiting response... 404 Not Found
03:44.19kmeyerthis is for rootfs
03:44.20pjzkmeyer: you've done a 'make update && setup
03:44.29kmeyerpjz: just make setup
03:45.57alorilrwhitby: http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=321 seems to imply hardware
03:46.15dhogoodnight.
03:49.53alorilupdating counter based on mickeys blog entry
03:50.52dhoaloril: Do you have a URL for that?
03:51.24alorilhttp://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2007/04/10/openmoko-coreteam-in-frankfurtmain/
03:51.31dhoThanks.
03:51.34alorilno definite dates, but it sounds like this:
03:51.35alorilcounter
03:51.35alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, 4 days 08:08:24 (11.339 +-10.0 days) (801,155)
03:52.02alorilumm.. week-3 weeks I guess?
03:53.07alorilmaybe a bit less uncertainty:
03:53.08alorilcounter
03:53.09alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: 2 weeks 08:06:50 (14.338 +-7.0 days) (802,155)
03:53.43dhoHeh
03:53.44pjzkmeyer: you should do an update to make sure you've got the lastest source and etc; that version that's failing to download might be out of date so no longer present
03:54.01dhoIt's too bad that the release of the hardware depends so heavily on openmoko being stable :)
03:54.03blarsenI ran a clean MokoMakefile make openmoko-devel-image and make qemu today and it worked fine
03:54.05kmeyerpjz: I just ran make setup yesterday
03:54.09kmeyer(and it finished today)
03:54.23blarsenexcept for the stuff it couldn't grab from the debian servers and I grabbed manually
03:54.25alorildho: actually that blog entry sounded like P0 devs might get hardware a bit early
03:54.52dhoaloril: I'm not a P0 dev, unfortunately
03:54.55kmeyerblarsen: hmm, weird
03:55.13alorilor it means using existing P0 device to test it
03:55.22dhoThat's what I understood.
03:55.32dhoEither way, I guess I just have to wait for hardware to be released.
03:55.54blarsenit was a Makefile from yesterday, but I did do another "make setup" today before it completed
03:56.00blarsenrather "make update"
03:56.07kmeyerGTK+ is limited, surprise, surprise :P
03:56.36kmeyerblarsen: so I should do a make update/ make setup?
03:57.29blarsenkmeyer: I would think that would help
03:58.38blarsenpjz: space as power works for me
03:58.39pjzblah, they're not avoiding NIH enough
03:58.47pjzblarsen: yeah, I got it working, sorry
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03:59.31kmeyerblarsen: make update, make setup, then make whatever-the-long-one-is?
04:04.36pjzwow, these apps are... unspectacular
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04:06.57pjzanyone know how to make a new contact get saved?
04:09.56alorilmickey is talking only about software and himself, so no official numbers, but I guess those are better than pure guess ;-)
04:10.24pjzaloril: yeah; we're getting a fair distance from 'end of january' now, though
04:11.48kmeyer:-)
04:11.54kmeyermaybe the september figure needs to change as well
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04:18.13CIA-16openmoko: 03werner * r1719 10/developers/werner/openocd-multiple-usb-ids.patch: src/jtag/ft2232.c: support multiple USB ID pairs (ft2232_vid_pid)
04:19.32CIA-16openmoko: 03werner * r1720 10/developers/werner/notes/openocd: latest versions of OpenOCD and libftdi, and support for a list of USB ID pairs
04:21.17cbairdRe: the homemade USB rechargers mentioned a while back-- it's been my experience (with http://tinyurl.com/2nnonl) that LiIon and LiPoly batteries will happily recharge off 4x NiMH batteries directly-- so none of the extra voltage regulating hardware that makeblog&etc. add to it is necessary.
04:23.30cbaird(of course, it depends on the user not frying the internal with Akalines..)
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04:54.18pjzso I've got a small patch I want to test... how do I use mokomakefile to rebuild it into an image for me?
04:55.12rwhitbywhat's it a patch to?
04:55.33pjzuh... contact-pane
04:55.45rwhitbypjz: do you know how to use quilt?
04:55.51pjzer, openmoko-contacts/contacts-contact-pane
04:55.58pjzrwhitby: not really, no
04:56.33pjzrwhitby: I've a vague idea that you're sayig I need to do a diff and put it in a dir someplace so quilt will pick it up
04:56.44rwhitbyyou can use quilt to handle the patches
04:56.52rwhitbycd /home/moko/openmoko
04:57.03rwhitbyquilt new <descriptive-name-of-patch>.patch
04:57.18rwhitbyquilt add trunk/src/...<file-name-you're-changing>
04:57.38rwhitby(do that for any files you change which you want to be part of the patch)
04:57.49rwhitby(note that you need to add then *before* you change them)
04:58.00rwhitby... make the changes ...
04:58.02rwhitbyquilt refresh
04:58.20rwhitby(this will create a new patch file in /home/moko/patches/openmoko-HEAD/....
04:58.24rwhitby(and update the series file there)
04:58.46*** join/#openmoko Rince (i=rince@auf.der.geekcouch.de)
04:58.51rwhitbythen mokomakefile will treat your patch in exactly the same way it treats any other patches that I do
04:59.05Rincemorning
04:59.11kmeyermorning Rince
05:01.23pjzrwhitby: I see.  and once I've done that 'make qemu' will build it into the flash image and run it?
05:01.43rwhitbyyou will want to run "make build-qemu flash-qemu-local run-qemu"
05:01.57rwhitbyotherwise it will download and flash the official images
05:02.22rwhitbypjz: can you please write all this up on the MokoMakefile wiki page?
05:03.17rwhitbybbiab (lunch)
05:05.05aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Neo1973]]
05:09.03Rakshasacounter
05:09.04alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: 2 weeks 06:50:55 (14.285 +-7.0 days) (803,155)
05:09.08Rakshasa'lo all.
05:09.17pjzrwhitby: added
05:12.48dho2/w 2
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06:11.22CMcounter
06:11.23alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: 2 weeks 05:48:36 (14.242 +-7.0 days) (804,155)
06:12.06sumasumai remember hearing about the counter saying before only 24 hours for P1
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06:12.17sumasumanow it says P1, 2weeeks +
06:12.21sumasumais that is true ?
06:14.32RakshasaIt's one to three weeks, and it sounds like a very good guess. There's a blog entry that lead to this at planet.openmoko.org.
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06:17.58CMsumasuma: Yes, it was updated a while ago based on that blog post and some mails on the lists
06:18.06rwhitbysumasuma: the counter is simply an automatic reply of what the latest rumours are.  it has no official backing.
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06:21.16sumasumai c
06:21.40sumasumaCM: rwhitby: thanks for the clarification
06:26.11cbairdIs there a way to get a verbose building progress with MokoMakefile? I've been look at "glibc-2.5-r4: task do_install: started" for over 4 hours now..
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06:33.52rwhitbycbaird: you can run bitbake manually, with the -D debug switches
06:35.52alorilsumasuma: I don't think it ever said 24 hours, maybe week + 24 hours at some point ;-)
06:37.35alorilrwhitby: good point
06:37.37alorilcounter
06:37.37alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 guess: 2 weeks 05:22:22 (14.224 +-7.0 days) (805,155)
06:38.34cbairdrwhitby: okay-- nothing seems to have Gone Horribly Wrong.
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06:52.38fish_re
06:58.55Hopscotchgood morning
06:59.24aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[MokoMakefile]] [[Talk:Neo1973_Hardware]]
06:59.59kelvinnHopscotch: morning
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07:48.25Elrondaloril - On what is the 14 +- 7 based? mickey's post?
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07:58.55SpeedEvilcounter
07:58.55alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 guess: 2 weeks 04:01:04 (14.167 +-7.0 days) (806,155)
07:59.13SpeedEvilI don't read mickeys post as 14+-7
07:59.37SpeedEvilI read it as 21-0+14 or so at best.
08:00.47ElrondRight.
08:01.09ElrondAnyway, got a "meeting" ;o)
08:01.23SpeedEvilIf the feature freeze is in a week - then presumably that means that the V6 PCBs aren't even designed yet.
08:02.06SpeedEvilWhich means a couple of weeks till hardware at best, if they are then asking P0 people for help, that means another weeks shipping, and another weeks eval at least.
08:04.18alorilSpeedEvil: yeah, he didn't talk about hardware directly though, but maybe hardware is too >= 3 weeks (implied in post)
08:04.41SpeedEvilWell - I suppose that's true.
08:05.23SpeedEvilI'm combining that with the fact that there has been a week for the 'oops - we mis-set something in u-boot for V5, and it's just fine now' announcement.
08:05.37SpeedEvilwhich hasn't arrived.
08:06.33alorilearliest day for new pcb week? or maybe 2 weeks?
08:07.06alorilhmm..
08:07.43SpeedEvilIf mickey was talking of hardware, then the PCB can't happen before the feature freeze :)
08:08.13SpeedEvilAnd you want to make at least some to test with, which takes a week, then testing, which takes another weekish, before you can go volume.
08:08.22SpeedEvil_at_bare_minimum_.
08:08.31alorilcounter
08:08.31alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 guess: 3 weeks 03:51:27 (21.161 +-14.0 days) (807,155)
08:08.51SpeedEvilIt's possible that mickey may not have been talking of hardware.
08:09.12jgmThe counter's getting a bit irrelevant, it should really just say 'now +/- 2 months' and be done with it
08:16.15Nebukadnezaheyho
08:16.52ElrondSpeedEvil - V5?
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08:17.53Nebukadnezahm, why that?
08:19.45Nebukadneza*toying around with mokomake and qemu*
08:20.59cbairdXorA: that's "blogosphere[tm]"...
08:21.20XorAstupid code of honour crap
08:21.30XorAwe never had that for USENET and we all survived
08:22.04Elrond"code of honour"?
08:22.05Nebukadnezawell, there were netiquettes
08:22.14Nebukadnezas/were/are/g
08:22.37Nebukadnezahey, now *thats* cool, a bot doing regex
08:22.40XorANebukadneza: yeah but breaching those normally ended in flames, death threats and name calling :-)
08:23.00Nebukadneza*g
08:23.25Nebukadnezanormally almost everything ends in flames and death threats
08:23.37XorANebukadneza: nah everything ends in Nazis
08:23.44XorA~godwin
08:23.58aptAdolph Hitler has been mentioned, the plonkings may commence now.  To plonk, /ignore foo all
08:24.15Nebukadnezahttp://rafb.net/p/eVI4Hk97.html  ... /me giggles
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08:25.02cbairdElrond: Just another day on the Kathy Seirra drama. (Pity no-one's taking taking her to task for her bogus accusations-- people are too frightened of being kicked out of the O'Reilly A-lister club :P)
08:25.59Elrondcbaird - Sound's like I don't really want to know details.
08:26.36SpeedEvilElrond: V5 is the current PCB - which has unspecified problems. I was reading the latest blog as if it was refering to hardware, which would mean that V6 was needed.
08:29.05SpeedEvilThis could of course be wrong - if it's referring to software, and V5 hardware works, then the V5 hardware could be being built ATM, and be shipping in a couple of weeks, after the P0 people have done software testing.
08:31.35alorilwell.. +-2 weeks now (1-5 weeks)
08:31.37alorilcounter
08:31.37alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 guess: 3 weeks 03:28:22 (21.145 +-14.0 days) (808,155)
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08:37.07aloriljgm: now +- 2 months doesn't make that much sense ;-)
08:37.28jgmIt does have the advantage of not requiring you to update the counter for a while after release, though :)
08:37.39alorilhehe
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08:38.08Nebukadnezahm guys, small question about the qemu thingy
08:39.11alorilSpeedEvil: I guess it is hardware that is at least 3 weeks, I doubt they would delay it for software only
08:39.47Nebukadnezai fetched me the mokomake, made setup and qemu and then tried to download-images and flash-qemu-official (it was complaining about a missing badblocks table and left me in a empty console, i exitted via ctrl+c) and then run-qemu-snapshot which fires up uBoot, but after selecting to boot it told me "booting from ...\nBad magic number"
08:41.45ElrondSpeedEvil - P0 people have Bv03. u-boot supports Bv04. And Bv04 is the one with unspecified instabilities, which might be sw or hw.  At least I read Sean's mail that way.
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08:54.48aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Wishlist:BuiltInScriptingLanguage]] [[Wishlist:BuiltInScriptingLanguage.]] [[User:Fries43]] [[User:Vladok]]
08:55.20Stephmwmornin'
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08:57.07Nebukadnezahm
08:57.15Nebukadnezaopenmoko qemu is *fun* ;P
09:02.44MacNorth*sigh* the P1 delay is bittersweet
09:02.53MacNorthboth encouraging and discouraging
09:03.36Cyphi^tuuks suoraa töist?
09:03.36XorAencouraging as the last thing you want is a phone that cant suspend
09:03.37alorilCyphi^: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
09:03.51Cyphi^oh sorry :P
09:04.46rwhitbyaloril: on the contrary, I think they would delay P1 for software.  There is a baseline software functionality that even a "developer's only" phone needs to have to be called a phone.
09:05.08rwhitbyNebukadneza: what was the problem with the qemu flow?
09:05.14Nebukadnezarwhitby: already solved
09:05.20Nebukadnezait was me beeing dumb ;P
09:05.32rwhitbyok, I can't fix that in MokoMakefile then ;-)
09:05.40Nebukadnezanah, thats kinda hard
09:06.04rwhitbyother than that, your impression of MokoMakefile?
09:06.14Nebukadnezawell, i'd need a neo ;P
09:06.20Nebukadnezabut its really nice
09:06.24XorArwhitby: ask "Ary you dumb yes/no" if yes then ; do exit; done
09:06.53rwhitbyXorA: what about if the answer is exactly the character sequence 'yes/no' ?
09:07.04Nebukadnezabut nevertheless i have the feeling that i have to read into the whole build process
09:07.25XorArwhitby: rm -rf /
09:07.40rwhitbyNebukadneza: yeah, perhaps MokoMakefile should print out a reading list for you to read while waiting for the build ...
09:07.51Nebukadnezanah, not really ;P
09:08.59Nebukadnezabut i really hope it will be significantly faster in hardware than on qemu ;P
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09:15.49RakshasaSpeaking of mokomakefile; I get an error everytime I'm making openmoko-devel-image. Stops while compiling perl (SysV.c) "SysV.xs:7:25: error: asm/page.h: No such file or directory" I
09:16.16RakshasaI've got to add the include into the makefile every time by hand.
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09:30.45alorilrwhitby: yes, but isn't that already done? at least phone calling should work now?
09:31.05alorilNebukadneza: I have heard that it might be slower in hardware (not sure though)
09:31.52Nebukadnezaurghs
09:31.58Nebukadnezacant imagine that
09:32.01Nebukadnezabut then it would be unusable
09:32.09Nebukadneza30 and more seconds to start up the dialer
09:32.26Nebukadneza10 and more seconds to type a character via the on screen keyboard
09:32.30kmeyerah
09:32.43Nebukadnezadoubt its that bad in hardware
09:33.11rwhitbyRakshasa: what host os platform?  64-bit by chance?
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09:52.24SpeedEvilElrond: yeah - s/5/4/ I misremembered.
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09:59.34Rakshasarwhitby: 64 bit amd, yes
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10:24.51rwhitbyRakshasa: OE has problems on 64-bit.  Check the openembedded bugzilla for work-arounds or fixes.
10:27.57rwhitbys/has/had/ - we're using a frozen OE version - the 64 bit problems are almost certainly fixed in the latest version.
10:28.10rwhitby(latest OE version, which OpenMoko has not moved to yet)
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10:29.31DukeOfURLSpeedEvil: ping
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11:08.49Rakshasarwhitby: Okay, will do. Thanks.
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11:19.52sannescounter
11:19.53alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 guess: 3 weeks 00:40:06 (21.028 +-14.0 days) (809,155)
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11:46.58mmpHello, is/will there be any point at which translations of openmoko will be coordinated?
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11:48.33mikeshmmp: try this link http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Translation
11:58.14friedelmmp: A few people indicated interest in setting up a Pootle server to help coordinate the translation process.
11:58.30friedelBut nothing official on that front yet.
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12:16.44mmpfriedel: (sorry delay) thanks; I just thought that one central point could help a lot:)
12:17.22MetaBookfoziScounter
12:17.22alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 guess: 2 weeks, 6 days 23:42:37 (20.988 +-14.0 days) (810,155)
12:17.34MetaBookfoziSdelayed again?
12:17.47mikeshomg, 3 weeks?
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12:19.16alorilnot really new delay, just a bit more info about current delay
12:19.37aloriland its unofficial guess
12:20.03alorilie.. its probably hardware problem, not software
12:20.15Vegarthat delay was only the software delay
12:20.18Vegarwasn't it?
12:20.28Vegarthat's how I understood it
12:21.06alorilit talks about software only, but bug entry talk about hardware changes being needed
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12:24.31mikeshso, is it possible, P1 will merge P1+?
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12:25.52Vegarbug entry?
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12:43.48aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]]
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13:18.23alorilVegar: see [[Neo1973]]
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13:36.57ninHerhi all
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13:39.39kineycounter
13:39.39alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 guess: 2 weeks, 6 days 22:20:20 (20.931 +-14.0 days) (811,155)
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13:56.59Vegaraloril: thanks
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14:03.30akIraola
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14:34.58pjzVegar: or see planet.openmoko.com
14:35.03pjzor maybe .org
14:38.48aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wishlist:Determine_Position]] [[Talk:FAQ]] [[User:Kresp0]]
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14:43.06MacNorthmorning :)
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15:08.27ElrondBTW: Is any pricing info available for P1.5?
15:12.30dhomickey|handcraft: ping
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15:20.45DukeOfURLSpeedEvil: ping
15:21.10SpeedEvil?
15:21.32DukeOfURLWhat is your read on the accelerometer discussion?
15:21.41DukeOfURLyour opinion
15:21.43SpeedEvilWhat discussion?
15:22.04SpeedEvilMy take on 'should there be one in there'?
15:22.06SpeedEvilIf so.
15:22.13DukeOfURLseveral weeks ago, people were talking about having an accelerometer to determine movement
15:22.25SpeedEvilSome things people propose are not actually possible.
15:22.41DukeOfURLmovement would cause the GPS sample time to increase
15:22.43SpeedEvilBecause the accellerometers that could actually be put in are quite noisy.
15:22.56DukeOfURLaudio noise?
15:22.58SpeedEvilNo.
15:23.03DukeOfURLRF?
15:23.09SpeedEvilaccelleration noise.
15:23.22SpeedEvilTo boil it down.
15:23.51SpeedEvilIf you know your orientation exactly, then you can be uncertain as to the position by up to 80m or so after 1 minute.
15:23.52DukeOfURLI don't understand acceleration noise...
15:24.05SpeedEvilBecuase the accellerometers are noisy.
15:24.31SpeedEvilThe output accelleration is not quite the real accelleration.
15:24.40init_alxDukeOfURL: he means, the accelerometer can't be used to keep track of your position for extended periods of time
15:24.57init_alxsince it's measurement isn't 100% accurate (it has "noise")
15:25.11SpeedEvilThere is an additional problem.
15:25.25init_alxdoes the neo have a compass?
15:25.27SpeedEvilGravity is _large_ compared to typical accelleration forces.
15:25.28SpeedEvilNo.
15:25.28DukeOfURLI'm thinking of using an accelerometer to increase the GPS sample time (decrease the interval) rather than using it to determine position
15:26.05SpeedEvilThe accellerometer in that case can't tell you when the phone is actually moving in the GPS sense - as it will be confused by the phone being moved around in the hand.
15:26.07DukeOfURLJust some indication the Neo is moving, even downwardws
15:26.13SpeedEvilit can tell you when it's probably stationary.
15:26.22init_alxyeah
15:26.44DukeOfURLthat would be a good thing--as long as it's stationary then there's no need to sample GPS
15:27.22SpeedEvilIt almost certainly won't measure stationary if it's in a pocket though.
15:27.48BlackFogit could warn if it will broke when hitting the ground... :X
15:27.51init_alxwell DukeOfURL
15:27.54init_alxkeep in mind
15:28.05init_alxthe accelerometer measures acceleration, not velocity
15:28.14init_alxit could still be "stationary" and moving at constant speed
15:28.21DukeOfURLcorrect
15:28.34init_alxso there's no way to determine whether the phone is actually moving without using gps
15:28.37SpeedEvilIt is quite possible to - for example - fly a plane into the ground, while still having a stationary accellerometer reading.
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15:29.02MacNorthheh, until the last moment ;)
15:29.17SpeedEvilyou roll the plane left or right slightly, while pulling back on the stick very slightly.
15:29.55SpeedEvilthis ends up in a skewed loop to the left or right, ending at you smacking into the ground, inverted pulling -1G
15:30.02SpeedEvil-1G absolute.
15:30.08SpeedEvilall the drinks stay on the tables.
15:30.11DukeOfURLThe inertial nav systems have been around since the 70s, and they are pretty accurate.
15:30.15SpeedEvilYeah.
15:30.31SpeedEvilSemiconductor nav systems - the sort that might be in a phone suck.
15:30.51BlackFoggps has only probs inhouse
15:30.52DukeOfURLSo what is the answer to sampling GPS without draining the battery?
15:30.57SpeedEvilYou're looking at dozens of metres and dozens of degrees uncertainty after a munute or so.
15:31.08SpeedEvilJust sample the GPS every 10s or so.
15:31.11SpeedEvilfor 1s.
15:31.18SpeedEvilit's not actually bad.
15:31.54SpeedEvilAccellerometer will tell you if it's on a table, or possibly moving.
15:32.15DukeOfURLWhat are your thoughts about attachment backs?
15:32.29SpeedEvilLook at the wiki page - it's pretty much got the thoughts :)
15:32.35Vegarthere's probably a market for that, DukeOfURL
15:32.36DukeOfURLk
15:32.55Vegarespecially for people who move around a lot and want a portable computer
15:33.01MacNorthan accelerometer would help automatic XRanaR
15:33.15DukeOfURLI'm looking at a very narrow niche market.
15:33.17*** join/#openmoko peepsalot (n=peepsalo@cpe-70-112-25-110.austin.res.rr.com)
15:33.21SpeedEvilof what?
15:33.43DukeOfURLXRanaR???
15:33.55MacNorthtypo
15:34.15MacNorthXrandr
15:34.31SpeedEvilfuk: For what niche?
15:34.35SpeedEvilerr - Duk:
15:34.36Vegaryeah
15:34.56Vegaryou'll probably sell around 10-20 units the first year
15:34.59DukeOfURLthings like vehicle tracking and teenager monitoring
15:35.05init_alxhehe
15:35.07SpeedEvilAh.
15:35.08init_alxteenage monitoring XD
15:35.16cbairdan ersatz pedometer...
15:35.27*** join/#openmoko koen|gprs (n=koen@212.41.157.237)
15:35.30init_alxshould integrate openmoko with oh, say, twitter.com
15:35.39SpeedEvilFor vehicle tracking, the mic should work.
15:35.40cbaird(or rather-- a very over-engineered pedometer :)
15:35.41SpeedEvilIf it's in a box.
15:35.48MacNorthno, if you want teen tracking, myspace.com
15:36.17init_alxhaha
15:36.20BlackFoglol
15:36.20init_alxmost kids have 2 myspace accounts
15:36.24init_alx1 they show their parents
15:36.24SpeedEvilAnd if it's connected to teh car battery, you don't care.
15:36.27init_alxthe other with all the pictures
15:43.13DukeOfURLwith a paedometer (sp?) we could determine if the user was walking...  
15:43.32DukeOfURLor is it pedometer
15:43.34DukeOfURL?
15:43.36*** part/#openmoko Nebukadneza (n=daddel9@HSI-KBW-085-216-122-115.hsi.kabelbw.de)
15:45.50*** join/#openmoko buz (n=buz@84-72-54-173.dclient.hispeed.ch)
15:53.17bhimaA paedometer is what you use on myspace to figure out if the person your kids are talking to is safe or not.
15:53.41init_alxhahahahaha
15:53.42koen|gprspeople visit myspace?
15:53.47CoreDump|afkbhima: I was about to say.. =D
15:53.59koen|gprscan't you just look at website from '95 on the wayback machine?
15:53.59DukeOfURLas in paedophile?
15:54.04init_alxmy friend wrote a perl script to proxy myspace
15:54.15init_alxand remove all the bad web design people do
15:54.27dhoand steal passwords
15:54.29init_alxin addition, it computes a "douchebag score"
15:54.37*** join/#openmoko mikesh (n=mikesh@feldconf.feld.cvut.cz)
15:54.40init_alxbased on how much crap people put in their profile
15:54.54dhoactually having a profile gives you a douchebag score of 5,000
15:55.37bhimaI think there's an entry in /dev for myspace - bad web design.
15:55.47dhobhima: null?
15:55.55bhimacorrect. :)
15:55.59dho:)
15:56.44koen|gprsecho "<HTML>" `cat /dev/urandom` "</HTML>" > myspace ?
15:57.03dhofunny, you can actually do that in Plan 9
15:57.22koen|gprsdho: I know
15:57.27koen|gprsplan 9 is pretty sweet
15:57.48koen|gprsit is just unusable for 99% of the people out there
15:57.50bhimaI have a telephone that runs Inferno.
15:57.56dhobhima: Really?
15:58.01dhobhima: Which?
15:58.13bhimaTuxScreen, originally Philips webphone something or other.
15:58.24dhoHm.
15:58.27bhimaVGA res touch screen with a modem and an IR keyboard.
15:58.31*** join/#openmoko friedel (n=fwolff@dsl-243-104-129.telkomadsl.co.za)
15:58.33bhimaStrongArm based.
15:59.05*** join/#openmoko empty_mind (n=orion@122.167.38.70)
15:59.17bhimaIt's a very, very odd device.
15:59.29bhimaIt was supposed to be a consumer internet device.
15:59.42bhimaBut I don't think the message got through to the designers.
15:59.48bhimaIts keyboard has lots of buttons.
15:59.52dhoThe SoC project I'm likely to mentor is porting Plan 9 to the Neo1973
15:59.58*** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@206.80-202-161.nextgentel.com)
16:00.17bhimaI think it goes up as high as F13, but maybe just F12. Two control and alt keys, iirc.
16:00.21Elronddho - ;-)
16:00.28bhimascroll lock, of course.
16:00.36bhimaand it has an "any" key.
16:00.45CoreDump|afkhehe
16:01.07bhimaTwo PCMCIA slots as well.
16:01.38bhimaThey never made it to market; too expensive.
16:01.51CoreDump|afkbhima: That doesn't sound odd but rather interesting
16:01.55*** join/#openmoko theholyduck (n=theholyd@ti541210a080-13017.bb.online.no)
16:02.18Vegaroh
16:02.21dhoHm
16:02.22bhimaIt's odd for something that was designed for non-computer savvy people to use in their living rooms.
16:02.28dhoI have a Siemens SimPAD
16:02.29Vegarthere are three kinds of onscreen keyboard
16:02.38dhoSIMpad
16:02.54SpeedEvilhttp://www.amstrad.com/products/emailers/e3.html is another sort of device.
16:02.57dhowhatever. It sounds similar, but it's an 8" screen with 6 or so buttons, serial and pc card
16:03.04SpeedEvillinux based 'smart-phone'.
16:03.12SpeedEvilfor email/... use.
16:03.30SpeedEvilRunning linux.
16:04.08Vegaremail device, so people do not confuse it with a phone
16:04.29SpeedEvilIt is a phone.
16:04.37ElrondSpeedEvil - (my machine is locked up doing heavy IO, no webbrowser) any binary blobs drivers in that one?
16:04.46SpeedEvilI dunno.
16:04.54SpeedEvilActually.
16:04.59SpeedEvilIt may not run linux natively.
16:05.10SpeedEvilYou can boot linux on it and use most of the stuff though/
16:05.27dhoI wonder what video codec they used for getting video streams up/down over 56k
16:05.39*** join/#openmoko don-o (n=donp@206.163.122.98)
16:05.39SpeedEvilDunno.
16:05.41don-ocounter
16:05.41alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 guess: 2 weeks, 6 days 19:54:18 (20.829 +-14.0 days) (812,155)
16:05.55don-oi dont know why i watch that thing anymore.
16:05.58mjrmy guess would be the "huge framedropping" codec
16:06.02dhohaha
16:06.12DukeOfURLLooks like May at the soonest.
16:06.28don-oyeah. mickeyl's last blog post was informative.
16:06.37SpeedEvilNot really.
16:06.55SpeedEvilIt doesn't say if the 'feature freeze' is software or hardware.
16:06.59DukeOfURLWill this puch-back the September date as well?
16:07.09DukeOfURLpush-back
16:07.17CoreDump|afkgood question
16:07.20SpeedEvilif it's software, then it could go in 3 weeks or a bit less. If it's hardware, then it's a fair bit more.
16:07.28don-oDukeOfURL: my guess is that this work is equally applicable to the sep launch.
16:08.05don-ohalf of the advantage for me to get a neo now was to put off iPhone lust.
16:08.17don-onow it looks like they'll come out at the same time.
16:08.20DukeOfURLcorrecto
16:08.22bhimaI would guess that the only reason this would push back the consumer launch is because the dev team is taking time fixing this problem that would otherwise spent getting consumer grade apps ready.
16:08.54SpeedEvilAnd also the fact that devs that buy the phone are more likely to dev more actively.
16:08.55DukeOfURLThe last thing FIC wants is a recall...
16:08.56Elrondmickeyl - So you're not allowed to tell us more about the instability issues?
16:09.06dhoIt's too bad that people whoa ren't interested in the software stack aren't able to get phones yet :)
16:10.07bhimaI don't know if it'll be good or bad, but if they come out at the same time the Neo1973 will likely get a lot of publicity.
16:10.29SpeedEvilIMO, that's a really bad plan.
16:11.18SpeedEvilThe iphone will have _huge_ amounts spent on the media launch.
16:11.59bhimaI think they'll spend a lot, but I don't think it'll be that astronomical given how much press coverage it'll get...
16:12.04*** join/#openmoko keithp (n=keithp@home.keithp.com)
16:12.11bhimaAnd the press coverage is where the neo will get mentioned.
16:12.26dhoprobably only in techy press coverage though
16:12.38dhoApple's got a lifestyle market, not a tech product market
16:12.49dhoThe Neo1973 is being marketed as a tech product
16:13.35bhimaSeeding journalists with neo sample units at about the same time as Apple sends out iPhones might be itneresting.
16:13.52don-oright. samsung and the like have more interesting products than the neo, i would think, from a reporter's point of view.
16:14.28don-olinuxdevices.com will love it
16:14.36bhimaI dunno. The samsung seemed like a fairly boring phone that _looked_ like the iPhone, but without any of the interesting innovative stuff.
16:15.03don-oas much as i want an iPhone, i cant stomach the 2-year cingular lockin.
16:15.43don-oby the way, there is an ubuntu qemu+openmoko image for anyone who wants an easy way to play with the emulator.
16:15.57bhimaThankfully, my employer has a pool of up-for-renewal cingular lines awaiting the iPhone. :)
16:16.01Vegardon-o: a .deb?
16:16.05don-oi can give the url if anyone wants it.
16:16.07don-oVegar: tarball
16:16.13Vegarwith the qemu in the openmoko svn?
16:16.28don-oyeah. the neo-enabled qemu. http://yamato.hyte.de/moko/qemu-neo1973.tar.bz2
16:16.30dhoHm.
16:16.39dhoI should make one for FreeBSD
16:17.05don-othe only trick is to register a button press you have to hold down the mouse button and wiggle the cursor a bit.
16:17.16don-oa single pixel click is ignored, from what i can tell.
16:17.33Vegarsingle pixel clicks work fine on my compile
16:17.34Vegardon-o: what's in the package?
16:17.44bhimaI don't like companies who make me do things their way as a matter of principle, but Apple tends to be very good at what they do, so I tolerate it from them. And/or figure out how to hack it. If I can hack my own BT OBEX reception stuff into the iPhone, I will be exceedingly happy.
16:18.12don-oVegar: qemu+openmoko image
16:18.30Vegarpre-flashed?
16:19.01don-oyup. one qemu command line and it's running.
16:19.41don-oi begged for it after hours of frustration trying to just download the source via mokomakefile and monotone.
16:19.55Vegarheh
16:20.02VegarI didn't use mokomakefile
16:20.23don-omokomakefile seemed to work fine but monotone was taking hours and then crashed halfway into it.
16:21.10Vegarsvn checkout https://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973 && ./configure --enable-alsa --target-list=arm-softmmu && make
16:21.18Vegarthen I used the supplied scripts to download an image
16:21.28don-ohmm. i'll have to try that approach.
16:21.49don-owait, no monotone involved? i thought  that was the only way to access the repo.
16:21.56Vegarmonotone?
16:22.17Vegarwhat's monotone?
16:22.25don-oits a software revision control system
16:22.29don-o(sort of) like svn
16:22.50VegarI used svn
16:23.28Vegaropenembedded is using monotone
16:23.31Zentonhi all
16:23.45Zentonis it possible to buy the terminal yet?
16:23.56don-othe topic in this channel is always accurate. 'in a couple weeks' :)
16:23.57Zentoncouple of weeks since what date?
16:24.04Zentonhehe :)
16:24.04Vegartoday
16:24.11don-oZenton: since today. every time you check its from today.
16:24.32*** join/#openmoko _kaiser_ (n=kaiser@74-131-118-200.dhcp.insightbb.com)
16:24.32don-o'tomorrow, you're always a day away'
16:24.50don-oZenton: the release was just pushed back to 3 weeks from now. thats the last 'official' word.
16:24.58don-oZenton: say 'counter' and a bot will answer you
16:25.08Vegar(and that was an unofficial word)
16:25.13ZentonI think I will buy one when it will be released.
16:25.53Vegaroh, yeah, the reason I clicked this channel tab..
16:26.32Vegaris it possible to type æøå with the onscreen keyboard?
16:26.37*** part/#openmoko don-o (n=donp@206.163.122.98)
16:28.18Vegar(norwegian/danish characters)
16:33.48aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[MFAQCorrection]] [[User:MarcVerwerft]] [[Web_Address_Field]] [[User:Cayco]]
16:35.18rohVegar afaik not, but you afre free to add that capability to the onscreen-keyboard
16:35.58Vegarthat would require some extensive changes to the keyboard layout
16:36.52Vegarreplacing the { ; and # keys with å ø and æ respectively
16:37.20Vegarand an alt-gr key would probably be required as well to type the removed characters
16:38.19Vegarunless there's a more clever way
16:38.42roh<PROTECTED>
16:39.37Vegarmaybe something as simple as just adding functionality to the äéö-toggle
16:39.44*** part/#openmoko drWyrM (i=99@200.68.87.154)
16:40.52rohVegar you could see if it makes sense to add them to the 'symbols'
16:41.08VegarI'm talking about the other onscreen keyboard
16:41.10Vegarthe white one
16:42.03rohi see.. i dunno if that stays at all
16:42.10Vegaroh
16:42.22rohin the end, its only a unmodified matchbox-keyboard
16:42.35Vegarthat keyboard is so much better than the one with the round black keys
16:43.08*** join/#openmoko kiney_ (n=kiney@p54882077.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
16:43.15kiney_counter
16:43.16alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 guess: 2 weeks, 6 days 19:16:44 (20.803 +-14.0 days) (813,155)
16:43.25MacNorthuf
16:43.28loufoquecounter?
16:43.28alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; P0: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review; 2 weeks, 6 days 19:16:31 (20.803 +-14.0 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-04-30);  5 months, 5 days (158.803 +-15.0 days) for mass market (2007-09-15): see topic for more info (814,155)
16:44.40rohVegar: i personally do not beliefe in onscreen-keyboards at all. either i can use my fingers or i use a external one with real keys (via bt-hid)
16:44.52rohs/f/v
16:45.01bhimaI like my pocket folding bluetooth keyboard.
16:45.05Vegaras far as I can see, there's lots of room for three more buttons on the A/a layout on the black-round-keys keyboard
16:45.25rohbut we'll see. atm most apps are somewhat mocked upo to see where the design is leading.
16:45.51Vegarok
16:46.26rohif you have a suggestion you'd like to ass, just edit it to the talk: pages of the wiki
16:46.34rohs/ss/dd
16:46.50rohi should really stop using gprs and find me a caffee ;)
16:46.52MacNorththe talk pages are good for both :-P
16:47.35roh;)
16:47.45*** join/#openmoko TimRiker (n=timr@216.49.181.128)
16:49.26rohbbl
16:49.27*** join/#openmoko nm (n=nm@222.252.72.107)
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17:01.40TimRiker:) /me wishes for openmoko hardware.
17:02.32bhimaTimRiker: You _still_ haven't gotten rid of them all? :)
17:02.57TimRikerbhima: just a few around that need jtag recovery or other minor tweaks.
17:03.07TimRikerall the nicely boxed working ones got sold.
17:03.18zecke|awayTimRiker: oh you have assembled more TuxScreens (again)?
17:03.26TimRikerbut I have some that are fine, just no boxes, and some that are not fine that have boxes, etc.
17:04.01TimRikerzecke|away: well, not at the moment, no. I just have parts around that could make a few working units if I did spend time on them.
17:04.25TimRikerbhima: nice.
17:04.59TimRikerI'd love to have a nice touchscreen in-dash computer that was hackable.
17:05.11bhimaTimRiker: THe only problem is that, despite my dash being perfect for this...I have to choose 2 out of 3: Empeg, TuxScreen, AC controller.
17:05.21*** join/#openmoko parag0n (i=parag0n@cpc3-bagu2-0-0-cust527.bagu.cable.ntl.com)
17:05.32bhimaI have an RC servo to actuate the temperature control for the AC
17:05.36TimRikercan't use the tux to control the empeg? :)
17:05.53TimRikerheh. then the tux can control the ac too.
17:05.53bhimaI need to do a black box reverse engineering of the AC PCB, since I don't know enough analog to really figure it out.
17:06.20bhimaOh, and I need to re-spin the touch screen and backlight level parts of my midplane.
17:06.29bhimaIt's, erm, a work in progress. :)
17:06.33TimRiker:)
17:06.33*** join/#openmoko zwnj (n=behnam@213.207.210.231)
17:06.44bhimaI really like the rotary control and plasma display of the empeg.
17:06.57SpeedEvilThough in my case, it involves actually making servos to push/pull the wires.
17:07.12bhimaI don't have a current tuxscreen photo in my car, but I have a few other gadgets....
17:07.12bhimahttp://homepage.mac.com/gopiballava/gopimobile/
17:07.37bhimaI discovered that the physical button for the hazard lights contains the timing relay for the turn signal.
17:07.56bhimaSpeedEvil: My previous car used a lot more mechanical stuff. '96 Golf.
17:08.38bhimaMy Saturn has a mechanical temperature control, and a simple high current switch for the fan levels, and a simple AC switch, but the fan location control is complicated.
17:08.42SpeedEvilBut it's cheap, easy to work on, and bits are available easily.
17:08.52TimRikerwhats the one on the left by the mirror?
17:09.00bhimalunch...
17:09.03bhimaleft == nokia 770
17:09.20TimRikerahh yeah. 700 and an 800?
17:09.44bhimaYes. :)
17:09.57bhimaAnd a P800 and a Nokia E70.
17:10.07bhimaI'm thinking of putting a half keyboard to my left.
17:10.09bhimabbl.
17:10.36*** join/#openmoko pvanhoof (n=pvanhoof@d54C0EE14.access.telenet.be)
17:11.09*** join/#openmoko simon___1 (n=simon@h98n2fls301o1032.telia.com)
17:12.54buzofficial word like where
17:13.15buzalso how about skipping p1 and releasing p1.5 right away instead
17:13.29MacNorthbuz++ :)
17:13.37CIA-16openmoko: 03rob * r1721 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/ (3 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
17:13.37CIA-16openmoko: 2007-04-10 Rob Bradford <rob@openedhand.com>
17:13.37CIA-16openmoko:  * libmokoui/moko-message-dialog.c:
17:13.37CIA-16openmoko:  (moko_message_dialog_set_message):
17:13.37CIA-16openmoko:  * libmokoui/moko-message-dialog.h:
17:13.39CIA-16openmoko:  Give the moko_dialog_set_message function a vsprintf varargs parameter
17:13.43CIA-16openmoko:  and use this when generating the message.
17:17.02*** join/#openmoko greentux (n=lemke@pd956a57b.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
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17:24.46bhima|n800re.
17:24.58dhoheh
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17:31.15dhobalrog-kun: shit.
17:31.21dhobalrog-kun: I figured out why gstat wasn't working.
17:33.55dhobalrog-kun: FreeBSD has a gstat utility for GEOM statistics. your openmoko/env should have a if [ -x /usr/local/bin/gstat ] stat=/usr/local/bin/gstat
17:37.00dhoAnybody need / want a precompiled / preflashed FreeBSD qemu image?
17:42.12*** join/#openmoko TimRiker (n=timr@pdpc/supporter/bronze/TimRiker)
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17:57.08kiney_counter
17:57.08alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 guess: 2 weeks, 6 days 18:02:51 (20.752 +-14.0 days) (815,155)
17:57.51PBecktag
18:01.29paulproteusMan, this counter is always around two weeks.
18:01.32paulproteusSo sad. *sniffle*
18:03.15MacNorththey need to take the Scotty approach -- purposefully overestimate to impress ;)
18:03.46MacNorths/ful//
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18:22.46necrodome\j
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18:25.10buzon the plus side, it makes it easier and easier to decide to wait for the upgrade
18:27.16*** part/#openmoko darx (n=darx@77-98-90-46.cable.ubr03.wolv.blueyonder.co.uk)
18:28.09mmpHello, I'm sorry for question which might be already answered (and freely ignore me if so), but I have not found anything in wiki - is there real possibility to include multitouch screen in some of next phases?  If we don't take into account problematic support from X's side..
18:28.48aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Address_Field]] [[Sound_/_Recording_Preview]] [[Action_Button]] [[Phone_Number_Field]] [[Talk:FAQ]]
18:32.06*** join/#openmoko greghunt (n=greg@212-1-147-144.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com)
18:33.22MacNorthi wonder if that was some of the 'secret' stuff in mickey's post
18:37.50*** join/#openmoko dbbolton (n=daniel@pool-72-84-49-111.clrkwv.east.verizon.net)
18:38.24dbboltondoes anyone ever actually chat here.
18:38.52atlachat.
18:38.53atla:)
18:38.54MacNorthno, it's mainly sheming that goes on
18:38.59MacNorthand some gossip
18:39.07buzusually its the bots playing pingpong
18:39.07mmp:-))
18:39.24dbbolton|   .
18:39.33buz.   |
18:39.39mmp|     .
18:39.43dbbolton|   .
18:39.55mmpI missed :(
18:39.56SpeedEvil. |
18:40.03buz. <
18:40.04cjb. |
18:40.04buzcrap
18:40.07cjb:)
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18:40.51dbboltonpong is tricky.
18:41.00dbboltonlike thermodynamics.
18:42.03MacNorthbut unlike thermodynamics, the energy in a pong system increases with time
18:42.41threshand unlike thermodynamics everyone know how to play pong
18:43.00dbboltonbut isn't pong a closed system
18:43.35dbboltonwait.
18:43.46dbboltonwhy are we discussing the physics of pong.
18:44.06mmpdbbolton: depends on the momentum of the ball:)
18:44.30*** join/#openmoko LetoTo (n=paul@bofh.xelerance.com)
18:50.28dbboltonhas anyone used the minimo browser ?
18:50.28alorildbbolton: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
18:52.32*** join/#openmoko simon___2 (n=simon@h98n2fls301o1032.telia.com)
18:53.14dbboltonwell, look into it.
18:53.45*** part/#openmoko dbbolton (n=daniel@pool-72-84-49-111.clrkwv.east.verizon.net)
18:54.52bhimacounter
18:54.52alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 guess: 2 weeks, 6 days 17:05:08 (20.712 +-14.0 days) (816,156)
18:55.04bhimaIs the counter in any way accurate?
18:55.34mmpbhima: the +- thingy is deviation IIRC :)
18:56.13Vegarbhima: it's just guessing
18:58.51SpeedEvilSemi-educated guessing.
19:01.22ewona/win 23
19:01.24ewonbah
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19:12.12Magonmickeyl: iirc tomorow is deadline for soC
19:16.29LarstiQMagon: yes
19:18.38Magoni still have no comments :-(
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20:21.40m-mhi
20:22.48aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[OpenMoko_compatible_cellphone_providers]] [[Translation]] [[System_Info]] [[User:Hillar]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Address_Field]] [[Sound_/_Recording_Preview]] [[Action_Button]] [[Phone_Number_Field]] [[MFAQCorrection]] [[Wishlist:Determine_Position]] and other changes
20:23.11_m0hi @all
20:23.18m-mhi
20:24.50*** join/#openmoko dsp (n=dpfleger@nat0.xsigo.com)
20:25.49*** join/#openmoko rejo1 (n=rejon@dhcp145.wcl-186.american.edu)
20:28.03dhoooh, xsigo.
20:28.11*** part/#openmoko m-m (n=m@212.98.155.154)
20:28.12dhodsp: Do you know Mike Baker?
20:28.56*** part/#openmoko dsp (n=dpfleger@nat0.xsigo.com)
20:29.03dhoor not.
20:32.49aloril(script) openmoko-neo1973: Sean Moss-Pultz <sean at openmoko.com> Re: In Taipei for OLPC stuff. Visit FIC?
20:33.03*** join/#openmoko alp` (n=alp@host-87-74-58-121.bulldogdsl.com)
20:33.28CM:)
20:36.25Vegaris there an accelerometer in the neo?
20:36.35seemanta which?
20:36.35CMNo
20:36.54CMseemant: Like laptop HDs have
20:37.01Vegarfrom the wiki: "[1] is the datasheet for an example of the sort of accellerometer in the neo"
20:37.04CMOr the wii-mote
20:37.21CMHmm.. Never heard that
20:38.12CMVegar: Is that on the wishlist?
20:38.23Vegaryes
20:38.29VegarWishlist:Determine_Position
20:38.41CMIt's peoples wishes for what to put in version 2 or later
20:39.26CMI agree that wiki-page was a bit unclear though
20:40.04SpeedEvilVegar: typo perhaps - I put that in there.
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20:40.25SpeedEvilI meant 'a datasheet of an accellrometer of the type that might be put in the neo.
20:40.49CMSpeedEvil: Would definitely be nice to have though.. Wii-mote style waving ;)
20:40.52Vegaris that supposed to be classified information?
20:40.58CM(Not as exact though without that ir thing..)
20:41.22CMVegar: It's just suggested things people would like to see in future phones, so no secrets
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20:45.35VegarCM: but he made it sound like it was already there
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20:46.15pavelmHeya, everyone.
20:49.53*** join/#openmoko Rastlinux (n=Rastlinu@206.227.136.100)
20:50.55SpeedEvilVegar: it has a history - there was a reason for it to be phrased like that.
20:51.05Vegarok
20:51.42*** join/#openmoko cbrake (n=cbrake@oh-69-34-21-229.sta.embarqhsd.net)
20:51.50SpeedEvilHowever, I've altered it, and rewritten the page, including a pointer to wikipedia on inertial guidance.
20:51.58SpeedEvilThe idea is basically a non-starter.
20:52.15SpeedEvilFor other than positions over several seconds.
20:55.58Vegaraccelerometers are still interesting things though
20:56.35cbrakehas anyone been doing Bootloader JTAG debugging using the DebugBoard/OpenOCD?  How well does it work?
20:56.43pavelm(Actually, 80m after 1 minute is not that bad. Car at 60kph does 1km a minute)
20:56.48peepsalotdead reckoning is damn difficult
20:57.12peepsalotespecially abstracted from accelerometer input
20:57.49SpeedEvilthat's 80m/minute, assuming that you've got a three axis accellerometer, and three axes gyroscope.
20:58.29SpeedEvilwhich would add some $50 or so to the cost price, or $100 to the sticker.
20:58.31*** join/#openmoko overseer (n=overseer@dsl092-044-123.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
20:59.05Vegarbut why do that when you have GPS?
20:59.06SpeedEvilThere are lots of interesting things you can do with them, yes.
20:59.15SpeedEvilGPS doesn't work so well in tunnels.
20:59.20Vegarright
20:59.22SpeedEvilOr indoors, or ...
20:59.26peepsaloti think an accelerometer would be a very handy thing to have, but not for determining position
21:00.01peepsalotthings like playig monkey ball!
21:00.06SpeedEvilHowever, unfortunately, even _really_expensive_ ($100K) positioning systems aren't really good enough to maintain a decent position after several hours.
21:00.07mmpSome cars/other devices use mixed navigation - when there is no GPS signal, they switch to accelerometer-based motion estimations.
21:00.26SpeedEvilFor cars, the wheels are a _lovely_ source of nav info.
21:00.43mmpright, too :)
21:00.50peepsalotunless you burn the tires much ;-)
21:00.59Vegaror the roads are icy
21:01.02SpeedEvilEspecially as the sensors - for the ABS may be there already.
21:01.34SpeedEvilIf you're drifting, I don't think you're really going to care about nav system performance :)
21:04.19peepsalotmaybe you are drifting in a chase with someone that laid down a smokescreen and you need your nav system to tell see where you are on the road. :P
21:04.57*** part/#openmoko rejon_conf (n=rejon@dhcp145.wcl-186.american.edu)
21:04.57*** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=bob@p213.54.30.186.tisdip.tiscali.de)
21:06.01GaKkGaKkMaybe fiddling with your phone is not the best thing to do while drifting in a smokescreen.
21:06.02pavelmspeed: For some people, drifting is okay and wanted.
21:06.44SpeedEvilSure.
21:07.01SpeedEvilI just doubt that that intersects with the desire for precise position information.
21:07.32SpeedEvilAs few sane people will drift without knowing the road.
21:08.26GaKkGaKkMaybe to remove the co-driver in Rally :)
21:08.32Psi_"<SpeedEvil> For cars, the wheels are a _lovely_ source of nav info."  or unless your car can fly BTTF style :P
21:09.01SpeedEvilGaKkGaKk: Pop over to #osm on irc.oftc.net and propose some new mapping tags.
21:09.29SpeedEvilJust hope that the person that tagged the road is careful.
21:10.50*** join/#openmoko lmveloso (n=lmveloso@201.10.101.179)
21:11.21GaKkGaKkWould be bad to have the competitor tag a fifth gear left when you are passing a bridge :\
21:17.19VegarGaKkGaKk: gakkgakk fra EFNet?
21:24.19GaKkGaKkProbably not, but probably the original Gakkgakk
21:24.19GaKkGaKk:)
21:26.11GaKkGaKk"gakkgakk" is actually norwegian for "duck" or "ducky"... The way children say it.
21:26.43GaKkGaKkThe important thing is: Will I be able to play OpenTTD on OpenMoko?
21:26.46Vegarok
21:28.11*** join/#openmoko zwnj (n=behnam@213.207.210.231)
21:28.25Vegarwho was it that played freeciv on his neo?
21:28.25*** join/#openmoko greghunt (n=greg@212-1-147-144.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com)
21:30.20*** join/#openmoko prom (n=prom@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de)
21:31.13xkr47Vegar, :)
21:31.15pavelmIs there chance to get openmoko dialing (etc) software working without gsm07.10 support?
21:31.43xkr47it's opensource! everything's possibel :)
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21:35.31rohpavelm have you tried the emulator?
21:36.03rohah.. and it works already without 07.10 since the modem in the moko falls back to normal at-commands on ther serial
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21:39.55CIA-16openmoko: 03mickey * r1722 10/trunk/oe/packages/initscripts/ (4 files in 2 dirs): oe/initscripts: add extra quotes fixing the checkroot.sh bug
21:40.38*** join/#openmoko zween (n=zween@p213.54.50.185.tisdip.tiscali.de)
21:41.24GaKkGaKkVegar: Heh, I found a screenshot of the Neo with freeciv on flickr,.. This is a must have, as soon as possible,
21:41.37CIA-16openmoko: 03mickey * r1723 10/trunk/oe/packages/sysvinit/ (7 files in 7 dirs): oe/sysvinit: fix double tty1 bug in inittab. close #430
21:42.35*** part/#openmoko jgm (n=jgm@host-87-74-179-156.bulldogdsl.com)
21:44.13pavelmroh: I do not have emulator running :-(
21:45.08dhopavelm: why not?
21:46.22pavelmdho: Because I have real hw here ;-)
21:49.09rohhehe
21:49.53dholoser :(
21:49.54dhohaha
21:49.59dho;)
21:50.24*** join/#openmoko libervisco (n=libervis@tuxhacker/libervis)
21:52.04rohdho did you document your changes to get the emu and or buildsys running on fbsd somewhere?
21:53.10dhoroh: No. It's mostly just the FreeBSD port, and I need balrog-kun to make one more change to flash.sh and it will be an easy enough process to put on the wiki
21:56.08*** part/#openmoko GaKkGaKk (n=Viko@93.80-202-221.nextgentel.com)
21:56.49pavelmOk, bye for now.
21:57.05dhoBye pavelm
21:57.06pavelm(Compiled my own kernel, with all the needed features, but could not make it boot :()
21:57.21*** join/#openmoko koen|gprs (n=koen@212.41.157.237)
22:01.13rohdho nice.
22:01.19*** join/#openmoko greghunt (n=greg@212-1-147-144.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com)
22:03.10dhoroh: At that point it'll be a matter of typing ``make install; cd work/qemu-neo1973; openmoko/download.sh; openmoko/flash.sh"
22:05.46SpeedEvilIs there a nice way to revert to a given version on the wiki?
22:05.50SpeedEvilal?
22:05.55SpeedEvilOr is it manual
22:08.53*** join/#openmoko aevin (n=brootvor@150.80-203-127.nextgentel.com)
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22:15.36*** join/#openmoko bkuhn (n=bkuhn@john-marshall.sflc.info)
22:17.12SpeedEvilAh - got it.
22:18.48aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Clock]] [[Terminal]] [[Bluetooth_Connection_Status]] [[Message_Preview]] [[Sketchbook]] [[FAQ]] [[Sample_Native-Finger_Application]] [[Phone_Number_Field]] [[OpenMoko_compatible_cellphone_providers]] [[Wishlist:Determine_Position]]
22:19.50aevincounter
22:19.51alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 guess: 2 weeks, 6 days 13:40:09 (20.570 +-14.0 days) (817,156)
22:20.25aevinokay. it's been adjusted according to latest update.
22:24.24*** join/#openmoko msroest (n=msroest@S01060040f41dad58.cg.shawcable.net)
22:24.42cbairdWhat's the (increasing) number at the end?
22:26.06*** join/#openmoko drath_ (i=vmaster@p5B07D34C.dip.t-dialin.net)
22:26.24aevincbaird: i think it's how many times it's been displayed (people saying "counter")
22:27.12aevinbut it seems more like two numbers (and not 817156 with , as a 10³ separator)
22:30.00cbairdI'll suggest a unique-IP-visit-on-the-Main_Page counter :) ... "Oh goodie, we're being /.ed again! More promotion happening!"
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23:14.20filippo<PROTECTED>
23:14.23filippo<PROTECTED>
23:14.27filippo[ ! -e openmoko/patches/series ] || \
23:14.32filippo<PROTECTED>
23:14.36filippoApplying patch patches/sysvinit-inittab-duplicated-lines.patch
23:14.36filippopatching file trunk/oe/packages/sysvinit/sysvinit/fic-gta01/inittab
23:14.36filippoHunk #1 FAILED at 33.
23:14.36filippo1 out of 1 hunk FAILED -- rejects in file trunk/oe/packages/sysvinit/sysvinit/fic-gta01/inittab
23:14.36filippoPatch patches/sysvinit-inittab-duplicated-lines.patch can be reverse-applied
23:14.36filippomake: *** [setup-patches] Error 1
23:15.54filippohttp://www.pastebin.ca/433691    mokomakefile  
23:23.16*** join/#openmoko maydaytx (i=johndoe@cpe-72-178-87-147.hot.res.rr.com)
23:23.57MacNorthfilippo: there have been a few recent commits to the mokomakefile. have you 'make update-makefile' ?
23:24.08maydaytxcounter
23:24.09alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 guess: 2 weeks, 6 days 12:35:51 (20.525 +-14.0 days) (818,156)
23:26.49filippoyes i update
23:35.43CIA-16openmoko: 03mickey * r1724 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/libmokoui/ (4 files):
23:35.43CIA-16openmoko: libmokoui: remove outdated code (moko-search-bar)
23:35.43CIA-16openmoko: GtkTreeView: add fixed mode to improve performance
23:35.43CIA-16openmoko: GtkTreeView: try to set the adjustment to scroll the full height of entries... doesn't work though :(
23:36.34CIA-16openmoko: 03mickey * r1725 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/examples/openmoko-stylus-demo/src/demo-main.c: openmoko-stylus-demo: no longer use MokoNavigationList, this widget is deprecated and will be gone soon
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