IRC log for #openmoko on 20070328

00:10.48*** join/#openmoko darmou (n=darmou@203-206-183-196.perm.iinet.net.au)
00:15.44aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Wish_List]]
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00:20.13CIA-16openmoko: 03laforge * r1520 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/src/gsmd/vendor_ti.c: fix GSM signal strength parsing (Closes: 291)
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01:15.44aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]]
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01:27.38donut_My build is failing on openmoko-devel-image, it seems like it's trying to write a few of the things to the actual /etc.  (http://www.pastebin.ca/412945)
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01:31.18rwhitby#
01:31.18rwhitbyERROR: Cannot satisfy the following dependencies for task-openmoko-debug:
01:31.19rwhitby#
01:31.19rwhitby|        fstests
01:31.21rwhitbythat's the problem
01:32.00rwhitbythe postinst is a problem too
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01:38.42donut_So, would make clean-package-fstests and try again be likely to help any?
01:38.42alorilCommands: counter (see estimated time until P1), counter_msg (set message for counter), faq (link to FAQ in wiki)
01:39.32sumasumahow to add an application to openmoko ?
01:40.35MacNorth_does help in any question trigger you?
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01:42.36sumasumaMacNorth_: is that for me ?
01:43.00MacNorth_heh, no; it looked like your question triggered aloril's bot-response
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01:50.28donut_Ah, I see.  fstests-0.0+svn20060814-r1/temp/run.do_install.4966 uses a find -perm -755 to do the installing, but the files are actually 750 due to my umask.
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02:16.47aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:Hcblue]] [[Buying_Interest_List]]
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02:32.20CIA-16openmoko: 03ken_zhao * r1521 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/panel-plugins/openmoko-panel-gsm/data/ (Makefile.am SignalStrength25g_00.png): delete gps connect error image, which is only for test and useless
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03:00.44aloril(script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz <sean_mosko at fic.com.tw> RE: OpenMoko at Embedded Systems Conference?
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05:37.57MandarinoHi ppl!
05:38.01Mandarinocounter
05:38.01alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, 2 days 06:22:02 (9.265 +-7.0 days) (649)
05:40.03sumasumacounter
05:40.05alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, 2 days 06:19:58 (9.264 +-7.0 days) (650)
05:40.40sumasumawhat is  this counter about ?
05:40.41sumasumacounter
05:40.42alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, 2 days 06:19:25 (9.263 +-7.0 days) (651)
05:40.57sumasuma~counter
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05:57.10CIA-16openmoko: 03alex_tang * r1522 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-messages/src/ (callbacks.c sms-contact-window.c sms-contact-window.h): Get selected contacts and set into sms send entry.
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06:01.08sumasumacounter
06:01.08alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, 2 days 05:58:51 (9.249 +-7.0 days) (652)
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06:02.09alorilsumasuma: see link given in counter, it counts remaining time until estimated P1 availability (best guess only as you can see from big 1 week long uncertainty)
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06:26.58sumasumaaloril: thanks
06:27.07sumasumai was going through the link actually
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06:41.38CIA-16openmoko: 03ken_zhao * r1523 10/trunk/oe/conf/distro/include/preferred-openmoko-versions.inc: add SRCDATE for openmoko-messages
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06:46.43CIA-16openmoko: 03ken_zhao * r1524 10/trunk/oe/ (2 files in 2 dirs): oe/openmoko-apps: add openmoko-keyboard
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06:53.45ewanm89mobAnyone who is receiving the community mailing list?
06:53.57DukeOfURLyes
06:56.18Any_Key<PROTECTED>
06:57.07ewanm89mobCould you send the reply to my message about mokomakefile as I accidently deleted it?
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07:00.26rohewanm89mob got it?
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07:04.41ewanm89mobthanks?
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07:05.13rohewanm89mob i just tried make update with mokomakefile moments ago.. worked
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07:07.51ewanm89mobit takes a while to get those revs and certs!
07:08.23rohyep... how fast is your connection?
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07:08.57rohi sit behind 4.6mbit sdsl and it took a few hours to pull all tars and the mtn database blob the first time
07:09.14rohan update runs though in minutes
07:10.28ewanm89mob3.5Mbps Down 0.5Mbps up!
07:11.39roh*sigh* .. seems i need to get a microtorch to remove the broken bt from my gta01bv02
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07:15.25ewanm89It dosen't us the network fully though!
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07:18.21CIA-16openmoko: 03jiang_li * r1525 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-simplemediaplayer/ (beep/mainwin.c configure.ac):
07:18.21CIA-16openmoko: this modify do following change:
07:18.21CIA-16openmoko: 1) Do not claim the version number of libopenmoko(since it seems i can not get it);
07:18.21CIA-16openmoko: 2) generate a config file when the player first run to lower the occupy of the cpu and memmory;
07:18.21CIA-16openmoko: 3) modify the GUI layout to suite the real phone.
07:20.19ewanm89So I keep running update and hope?
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07:27.04koenah, the panel plugin finally connects to gsmd
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07:33.07TRIsoftmorning
07:34.23DukeOfURLhey
07:34.50DukeOfURLcounter
07:34.51alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, 2 days 04:25:09 (9.184 +-7.0 days) (653)
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07:46.59ewanm89Yeah I'm passed the mokomake errors!
07:47.36WiggleCati can't find what it compiled
07:48.16WiggleCatuntil now that is :)
07:49.50rohbuild/tmp/deploy/images/
07:51.21ewanm89I'm still downloading, svn tree now!
07:52.50WiggleCatyeah, I found them 10 seconds after typing that roh, thanks anyway :)
07:52.56ewanm89Yey, now building!
07:53.05Any_Keydon't worry, first time it takes a lot of time
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07:53.41WiggleCatit took ages for me...
07:56.20ewanm89:)
07:57.12Any_Keynightbuild it's the keyword
07:57.48ewanm89Dad won't let me, this way I just have to makesure I'm the first one back in!
07:58.34Any_Keygood luck with it
07:58.39ewanm89Does it use GCC?
07:58.49Any_Keyyep
07:59.14ewanm89Me should do it on Gentoo over Debian then :)
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08:00.03ewanm89The extra optimisation would have been very usefull
08:00.07Any_Keypure Debian not good enough?
08:01.02koengcc -noatime -OMG
08:01.05ewanm89I use a customised version of sid, I haven't got roung to recompiling and optimising GCC yet. Done the kernel though!
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08:01.46ewanm89I have a slow processor too
08:02.31ewanm89Are /home/moko/oa/packages/*/*.bb files important?
08:02.59Any_Keyewanm89, apt-build --help for you service
08:03.32ewanm89Yes, I know I can rebuild gc when I want to!
08:03.36rwhitbyoa is not there
08:03.52ewanm89That is the error it gave?
08:04.03ewanm89s/?/!/
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08:04.11rwhitbycorrect - it's another tree which is used internally in openmoko but not used externally yet
08:04.31koenrwhitby: s/used internally in openmoko but not used externally yet/used by harald/
08:04.42rwhitbykoen: perhaps I should get mokomakefile to remove that from bbfiles
08:04.48koenyeah
08:05.32ewanm89Maybe just supress the error so the code is available again when needed!
08:07.25CIA-16openmoko: 03rwhitby * r60 10mokomakefile/trunk/patches/openmoko-HEAD/ (remove-oa-tree-reference.patch series): Remove oa tree reference from site.conf
08:08.09rwhitbyewanm89: the oa code is not available, and it's a simple matter of removing that patch if it does become relevant.
08:08.56ewanm89sorted then!
08:10.38ewanm89Does anyone know why the oa code isn't available?
08:12.42koenewanm89: http://openalchemy.org/pipermail/openalchemy-general/2007-March/000009.html
08:15.42ewanm89The build system needs a major cleanup then!
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08:19.24koenindeed
08:19.33koenI gave up on o-a a few months ago
08:19.41koenharald picked up my work where I left
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08:27.05CIA-16openmoko: 03zhiyong_sun * r1526 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/panel-plugins/openmoko-panel-gsm/src/ (moko-gsm-conn.c moko-gsm-conn.h openmoko-panel-gsm.c): just reset G call back function time, and redefine the GSM signal value ENUM, call load image function when the value sure changed.
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08:43.33CIA-16openmoko: 03laforge * r1527 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-20061030-neo1973.patch:
08:43.33CIA-16openmoko: increase backup battery charging current to 400uA.
08:43.34CIA-16openmoko: This should be safe, since we are limited at 3.0V, and the battery spec says
08:43.34CIA-16openmoko: below 3.0V we can charge with up to 500uA.
08:43.34CIA-16openmoko: This should help the https://bugzilla.internal.openmoko.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111 to some extent.
08:43.36CIA-16openmoko: If this is not enough, we can still bypass the output resistor (BBCR=1)
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08:59.31CIA-16openmoko: 03tony_guan * r1528 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/ (7 files):
08:59.31CIA-16openmoko: Improved the auto-completion algorithm taking advantage of last search results.
08:59.31CIA-16openmoko: replaced the strlen to avoid the warning messages.
09:00.04hrwmorning
09:00.20TRIsoftmorning hrw
09:01.34xkr47morning :)
09:02.14hrwsomething interesting changed in software since yesterday?
09:02.40koenhrw: http://shiny.thorne.id.au/2007/03/aw-but-i-want-one.html
09:02.51koenhrw: the gsm panel applet now works with gsmd
09:03.38hrwkoen: o.. thats good news
09:03.43hrwtime to put sim in neo
09:04.09hrwand time to try to get svn account to fix some typos in stuff
09:04.19hrwlike 'swithc' in dfu-util ;D
09:07.56xkr47:)
09:10.35xkr47esac!
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09:17.44aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[File_Open_Dialog]]
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09:41.44aloril(script) openmoko-neo1973: Harald Welte <laforge at openmoko.org> Re: SOS - uboot drowned ;) and 1 other mails
09:41.44aloril(script) openmoko-neo1973: "Michael 'Mickey' Lauer" <mickey at openmoko.org> Re: Debug board - giving up
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09:46.44aloril(script) openmoko-neo1973: Harald Welte <laforge at openmoko.org> Re: Debug board - giving up
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10:17.44aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[File_Open_Dialog]]
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10:30.33alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, 2 days 01:29:26 (9.062 +-7.0 days) (654)
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10:49.07alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, 2 days 01:10:52 (9.049 +-7.0 days) (655)
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11:32.36xkr47;)
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11:43.55CoreDump|afk!ombug 212
11:43.55cdbot2* * Bug 212, Status: RESOLVED (FIXED), Created: Unknown
11:43.56cdbot2* * mickey(AT)vanille-media.de: Charging seems completely broken
11:43.57cdbot2* * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=212
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11:45.42CIA-16openmoko: 03laforge * r1529 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/ (3 files in 2 dirs): add parsing of +CMS errors according to GSM 07.05 (Philipp Zabel)
11:45.58CIA-16openmoko: 03laforge * r1530 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/include/gsmd/ts0707.h: fix typo (Philipp Zabel)
11:46.44aloril(script) openmoko-neo1973: Harald Welte <laforge at openmoko.org> Re: SOS - uboot drowned ;)
11:49.05ebbeHi, I can see in http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/WiFi_support_in_OpenMoko that a lot of suggestions has come up for wifi chips, but does any one know if we are closer to having wifi in this device?
11:49.05alorilWhen version 1 was designed there was no sufficiently low-power WiFi chip available which has an open driver. You can attach (battery) powered USB hub to Neo1973 and then use supported WiFi USB stick. Also some model later this year probably will include WiFi. For more information see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F
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11:51.01ebbeOkay, but what's the probability?
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11:51.49hrwebbe: recently they choose 2 chips to test
11:52.04hrwso time will show but probably will be wifi in final version
11:52.04guaquathose take consideration
11:52.31ebbehrw: Sounds good
11:52.44aloril(script) openmoko-devel: Harald Welte <laforge at openmoko.org> Re: How to add applications to openmoko image?
11:52.57ebbeIt's a must for wifi for me
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11:54.07alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, 2 days 00:05:52 (9.004 +-7.0 days) (656)
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11:59.46LuitvDHello y'all :)
12:02.28SpeedEvilHello.
12:02.33SpeedEvilHave you heard the news?
12:02.48LuitvDwhat news?
12:02.51SpeedEvilDunno.
12:02.52LuitvDthat p1 is ready?
12:02.55LuitvDcounter
12:02.55alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, a day 23:57:05 (8.998 +-7.0 days) (657)
12:03.01SpeedEvilSorry :)
12:03.04LuitvD:P
12:03.27LuitvDah well, haven't got any money anyways :)
12:04.05LuitvDand a P3 laptop :)
12:04.18LuitvDanyways, can't wait for P1+
12:04.28SpeedEvil:/
12:04.32LuitvD:P
12:04.36hrwI prefer amd
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12:05.23XorASpeedEvil: that always sounded rude
12:06.21hrwI change neo1973 batteries with 3rdparty nokia charger made by f00f company
12:06.43XorAoh and an old amd64
12:06.44LuitvDhrw: tricky :)
12:12.57alphaoneHas anyone tried to flash a recent rootfs?
12:13.10alphaoneFrom buildhost.openmoko.org?
12:14.13alphaoneI get lots of hardlink-foo errors when the kernel tries to mount the rootfs and the resulting init process spews errors all over the place.
12:14.42hrwalphaone: first flash newer uboot or erase rootfs nand
12:14.44alphaoneAn older rootfs works just fine
12:15.12alphaonehrw: I have a new u-boot
12:15.36alphaoneAnd if I flash an older rootfs it works.
12:16.44aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:WiFi_support_in_OpenMoko]]
12:18.02ElrondIs there no jffs2ck?
12:19.15hrwElrond: jffs2 do not have fsck
12:19.15hrwalphaone: enter uboot, nand erase rootfs partition, flash new rootfs
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12:20.49Elrondhrw - If jffs2 can have inconsitencies, there should be some fsck....
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12:22.47alphaonethat was nand erase.e, right?
12:23.39alphaoneOkay, nand erase seems to have that functionality already
12:28.16hrwElrond: it do selfcheck during mount
12:28.16koen|labElrond: jffs2 doesn't keep the inode tree on-'disk', so it will do a sort of 'fsck' on mount
12:28.16koen|lablogfs ftw!
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12:28.16ElrondWhat's logfs?
12:28.23Elrondhrw, koen|lab - Ahhm. That's why some people claim it doesn't scale?
12:28.32koen|labcorrect
12:28.40koen|labit has to keep in memory as well....
12:28.49koen|labso you waste time during mount and ram during operation
12:29.06koen|lablogfs has a 'super inode' that was the tree attached
12:29.33koen|labElrond: and jffs2 has 32bit pointers, so it can't do >4G
12:29.43koen|lablogfs uses compressed 64bit pointers
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12:31.43ElrondWhere's the logfs homepage? And has it chances to get mainline?
12:35.40alphaonehrw: Thanks, that fixed it. I thought the jffs was padded so it didn't make a difference...
12:37.18ElrondYou don't mean that one, right?  http://sourceforge.net/projects/logfs/
12:39.03koen|labnope
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12:39.23koen|labthe one Jörn Engel is writing
12:40.21hrwElrond: jffs need 20s to mount 512MB flash
12:41.44aloril(script) openmoko-neo1973: Harald Welte <laforge at openmoko.org> Re: Debug board - giving up
12:42.43mjrsounds like one doesn't want to use jffs on the microsd. But luckily those do their own load balancing and stuff, yes?
12:42.44Elrondhrw - Yuck. That's lots.
12:44.14koen|labmjr: jffs2 only makes sense on MTD
12:44.30koen|labmicrosd is a block device, which _should_ do its own wear-leveling
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12:53.55mjrkoen, yep, just verifying
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12:58.03koen|labmjr: you'd be surprised how many people hear about jffs2 and try to use in on flash cards
12:58.13mjrindeed
12:58.24mjror well, maybe not
12:58.33mjrsurprised
12:58.37guaquaso what are you planning to use on the flash cards?
12:59.01mjrI was just thinking ext2 or something
12:59.25mjrbut if someone has a better suggestion...
13:00.52mjrcomes to mind that since we have a default microsd, it probably has a pre-existing format already
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13:01.29koen|labon big cards: ext3, saves you fsck times if your phone crashed :)
13:01.36koen|lab(and -noatime)
13:01.50koen|labon the neo you could even mount async
13:02.13jgmSome sort of journalled filesystem makes sense, but not sure that it matters too much which one you choose considering the size of the environment it'll be serving
13:02.22guaquafat, for the compatibility ;)
13:03.31woglindethere is ext3 driver for windows
13:03.31jgmIf the card is write-leveling then I can't imagine you're going to hit any sort of limit before the cards are worth $0 anyway
13:05.17XorAjgm: you can always use an external journal
13:05.39mjrjgm, yes, that's what I try to tell myself ;)
13:06.37jgmXorA: where though?  Is there some sort of useful static internal storage available in the Neo?
13:07.13XorAjgm: nope, peice of paper :-)
13:07.47jgmAh ;)
13:07.55SpeedEvilAnd if the write leveling actually works perfectly.
13:07.58mjrMm, yeah. "User: Please write this down..."
13:08.00SpeedEvilHowever.
13:08.18jgmDoesn't have to be perfect, just vaguely functional
13:08.23SpeedEvilA thousand writes per second can go on for several years on an appropriately wear levelled 512M device
13:08.29prom.o(why dont you just use ext3 and be happy? *g*)
13:08.40mjrjournaling over gprs!
13:08.53mjrprom, we can.
13:08.57SpeedEvilover iSCSI!
13:09.03mjrSpeedEvil, yes, that!
13:09.07*** join/#openmoko ljp (n=lpotter@203.94.178.46)
13:09.13jgmmjr: Guaranteed to get you back up and running in the case of a crash within a couple of weeks...
13:09.14mjrfinally, a sane use for iSCSI over GPRS on the Moko
13:10.01mjr(it is sane, guys, right?)
13:10.03jgmTrimming that sentence down a bit to "a sane use for iSCSI over GPRS" should tell us all we need to know :)
13:10.22rwhitby"We
13:10.22rwhitbynow have the ability to alter the firmware of the GSM chipset"
13:10.24rwhitbywow
13:10.47TobiXIsn't that an oxymoron?
13:10.54mjrby the way, I hear there's been some licensing misunderstandings with the GPS chip people; anyone know more spesifically?
13:11.07jgmOoh, interested to hear the definition of 'alter' there.  Is it hack-an-image or is it open now?
13:11.28rwhitby"we" == openmoko under very strict NDAs I expect.
13:11.53promjgm: you are joking, right? :)
13:12.08jgmNormally :)
13:14.45Elrondrwhitby - I remember LaF0rge tried to get his hands non the gsm firmware source/buildenv.
13:14.55Elrond... probably under heavy nda ;o)
13:15.21rwhitbyElrond: LaF0rge made that statement I quoted in an email to the gsmd-devel list in the last hour.
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13:16.31ElrondAhh. :-)
13:17.08rwhitbynight all
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13:17.31ElrondNight rwhitby
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13:26.04sumacounter
13:26.05alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, a day 22:33:55 (8.940 +-7.0 days) (658)
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13:32.12alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, a day 22:27:47 (8.936 +-7.0 days) (660)
13:32.24guaquaoh wow, it's .1 days less now
13:34.20quickdevyeah :)
13:34.39WiggleCata week!
13:34.52quickdevor two ;)
13:35.03amarsh04someone has been busy with linux kernel development:
13:35.30amarsh04[ Rod Whitby ]
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13:35.30amarsh04<PROTECTED>
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13:40.12zeckeLaF0rge: hey, could you please install subversion from the backports on buildhost-old?
13:40.38WiggleCatHello Moko...
13:40.45guaqua:D
13:41.08guaquai'm thinking that might be the coolest thing to steal from another company :D
13:43.09WiggleCat:D
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14:25.57rboehmeIf P1 phones are supposed to be shipping in a couple of weeks, any word on when the preorders will go up? The end of the month approaches, fast.
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14:29.22DukeOfURLIt's about time for a status report
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14:30.21statusreport!
14:30.33DukeOfURLheh
14:47.39CIA-16openmoko: 03mickey * r1531 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/artwork/themes/openmoko-standard-qvga/ (168 files in 2 dirs): themes: add openmoko-standard-qvga. closes #197
14:48.31PBeckhi
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14:56.43aloril(script) openmoko-devel: Harald Welte <laforge at openmoko.org> Re: How to add applications to openmoko image?
14:56.57CIA-16openmoko: 03mickey * r1532 10/trunk/oe/ (2 files in 2 dirs): oe: add openmoko-theme-standard-qvga recipe
14:59.48CIA-16openmoko: 03mickey * r1533 10/trunk/oe/conf/distro/include/preferred-openmoko-versions.inc: oe/conf: resolve merge conflict
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15:04.41koenmickeyl: I think you want to merge back changes to openmoko-theme* from OE :)
15:04.55mickeylprobably, yeah
15:04.56koenmickeyl: unless the artwork is armv4t specific ;)
15:05.03mickeylah
15:05.05mickeylyes, very specific
15:05.07mickeyllittle endian even
15:05.08mickeyl;)
15:07.08CIA-16openmoko: 03mickey * r1534 10/trunk/oe/packages/openmoko-base/ (2 files): oe/openmoko-theme-*: artwork is not really architecture specific (taken from OE)
15:07.57Magonmickeyl: how many project you have at SoC?
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15:11.52mickeyl60 applications minus a few duplicates
15:11.57mickeylno idea how many slots we get assigned
15:12.44zeckemine is the most important one :}
15:13.15hrw60 applications????
15:13.21hrwhow many mentors?
15:13.34koenzecke: go webkit!
15:13.40koenzecke: go tinderbox!
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15:14.20koenmickeyl: what do you think about using gpe-dm (not gpe-login!) instead of kdrive-no-dm-init?
15:14.33koenmickeyl: it would relaunch X after a crash
15:14.34mickeyli don't think anything yet
15:14.43mickeyli need to think about the issue
15:14.54mickeylbut relaunching sounds like a sane thing on a phone w/o a keyboard
15:15.09koenI know the o-hand people vomit on anything containing the 'gpe' substring....
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15:15.30hrwbloated gpe?
15:16.17koenhttp://projects.linuxtogo.org/plugins/scmsvn/viewcvs.php/trunk/base/gpe-dm/gpe-dm.c?rev=8312&root=gpe&view=auto
15:16.22koenjust a few lines of C
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15:16.44aloril(script) openmoko-neo1973: Harald Welte <laforge at openmoko.org> Re: Debug board - giving up
15:16.50Magonmickeyl: it was about 5 few days before i think, or not?
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15:17.09mickeylyeah
15:17.15mickeylpeople added like crazy on the weekend
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15:17.32Magon;-)
15:17.41Magonso you can choose now
15:18.10mickeylya
15:18.11mickeylgood thing
15:18.13koenmickeyl: it's deadline time for dutch uni's, so lots of people held off writing stuff
15:18.26mickeylhehe
15:19.03Magonkoen: what deadlines?
15:19.03mickeylsorry i need to go outside for a while, 20 degrees is just too tempting
15:19.47CIA-16openmoko: 03laforge * r1535 10/trunk/doc/hardware/HXD8v011/ (. gpio.txt pmu-voltage.txt): add gpio and pmu voltages for HXD8v011
15:19.59koenMagon: project and assignments, the next few weeks will be exam time
15:20.54Magonkoen: for winter or summer term?
15:21.51koenMagon: we have a few exam periods per year, not just on term boundaries
15:22.26Magonoh ok, we have just 2
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15:47.52CIA-16openmoko: 03laforge * r1536 10/trunk/doc/hardware/HXD8v011/gpio.txt: add correct GP*CON values
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16:44.07DukeOfURLcan the display be read without the backlight?  will the phone detect ambient light and adjust the backlight?
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16:46.47promDukeOfURL: i dont know about 1. 2 is unlikely because that would require a light sensor. it wouldnt be technically complicated to add one, but the case would have to be changed.
16:47.32guaquahow does the proximity sensor work in iphone btw? and is it really of any use?
16:47.36CIA-16openmoko: 03laforge * r1537 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-machtypes.patch: add HXD8 machine type
16:48.08DukeOfURLwhat are the power requirements of the vibrator?  is it expensive?
16:51.06SpeedEvilI'd guess 300mW or so.
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16:55.11ElrondWhat is "HXD8"?
16:55.21CIA-16openmoko: 03laforge * r1538 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-20061030-neo1973.patch:
16:55.21CIA-16openmoko: move pcf50606 driver to generic 'drivers' directory. Only the initial register
16:55.21CIA-16openmoko: configuration is part of neo1973 specific code.
16:56.04koenElrond: http://svnweb.openmoko.org/trunk/doc/hardware/HXD8v011/
16:56.17CIA-16openmoko: 03laforge * r1539 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-s3c2410_udc.patch:
16:56.17CIA-16openmoko: move the usb pullup enable/disable function in board specific code, rather than
16:56.17CIA-16openmoko: having it in the generic s3c2410_udc.c
16:56.26rob_whow is it going #openmoko ?
16:56.48guaquahello moko
16:56.48CIA-16openmoko: 03laforge * r1540 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/boot-menu.patch: make it apply to other recent changes
16:57.14CIA-16openmoko: 03laforge * r1541 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/neo1973-chargefast.patch: move the 500mA fast charge enable/disable code to board-speficic code and out of usbtty.c
16:57.47CIA-16openmoko: 03laforge * r1542 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/ (series uboot-hxd8.patch uboot-smdk2440.patch): add SMDK2440 and HXD8 support (untested)
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17:08.45CIA-16openmoko: 03laforge * r1543 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-smdk2440.patch: update linker script to assure the lowlevel nand driver is within the first 4k (for steppingstone)
17:09.49rob_wlaforge is doing some work today , looks great
17:10.02guaquaat least committing :)
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17:11.45koenElrond: "Configuation settings for the FIC HXD8"
17:11.55dhoHm
17:11.58koenElrond: looks like another s3c24xx based FIC phone
17:12.11dhoHow much different will the september implementation be from a hardware standpoint?
17:12.19SpeedEvilNot very.
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17:12.24SpeedEvilReportedly.
17:12.34SpeedEvilit's going to have faster CPU, and wireless.
17:12.37guaquawhat's the wifi gossip about it?
17:12.52SpeedEvilwireless is almost certain.
17:12.52dhoOk
17:13.01prpplagueSpeedEvil: 2440? or 2443?
17:13.12Vegarwhat I'm interested in is battery lifetime
17:13.15dhoFaster CPU doesn't imply ``randomly reassigning GPIO pins'' does it?
17:13.24dho:)
17:13.30koendho: no, but fixing prior HW fuck-ups does
17:13.40dhoRight.
17:13.59dhomooi
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17:16.11ElrondVegar - Hey, yeah. I'm also more interested in battery lifetime.
17:16.48VegarI guess it's pretty early to make estimates, but some rough numbers would be nice
17:17.37ElrondVegar - SpeedEvil did rough estimates. Check the wiki.
17:18.01koenroot@fic-gta01:~$ uptime
17:18.01koen<PROTECTED>
17:18.09koenstill hasn't locked up
17:18.14SpeedEvilThese are based _solely_ on the datasheets, plus a fudge factor.
17:18.24SpeedEvilI have no hardware.
17:18.27ElrondVegar - http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Power_Management#Approximate_power_draw_of_various_subsystems
17:18.42SpeedEvil(/msg me for my address if you want to change that).
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17:19.31ElrondSpeedEvil - p(O?)H[59] did some measurements it seems. At least his flickr pics suggest that.
17:19.56SpeedEvilYeah - P0 hardware is - almost - worthwhile for this though.
17:19.57SpeedEvilerr
17:20.02SpeedEvils/while/less/
17:20.14ElrondRight. 30mA baseline ;)
17:20.17SpeedEvilit's got power consumption bugs
17:21.12Vegarassuming that the LCD is turned off when idle..
17:21.37SpeedEvilA major component is the CPU at idle, rahter than the LCD.
17:21.38ElrondSpeedEvil - http://www.flickr.com/photos/ph5/421944319/in/photostream/ and the pic to "right side".
17:22.29SpeedEviloh - yeah - that.
17:22.55SpeedEvilThat's well, interesting, but not really informative.
17:23.11ElrondWe should ask ph5 for data ;)
17:23.16SpeedEvilMultiple discharges in different states may be interesting.
17:23.24ElrondRight.
17:23.26SpeedEvilBut in practice, the data will be clearer with P1.
17:23.38prpplagueElrond: be nice to have the voltage that each of those are at
17:24.03SpeedEvilAnd the trivial way is to jam a shim into the battery lead.
17:24.32Elrond"jam a shim"?
17:24.39SpeedEvilOr easier - connect it to a 4V supply through a resistor, and use the ADC to read out current.
17:24.46guaquajam that shim, homeboy
17:24.57SpeedEvilYou take a bit of copper tape, and a bit of insulating tape.
17:25.19SpeedEvilOut of this, you form a thin insulated sandwich of conductors.
17:25.46SpeedEvilyou connect a current meter across the conductors, and push it into the battery hole.
17:25.57SpeedEvilthen push the battery down.
17:26.10SpeedEvilthis gives you a nice secure way to measure it.
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17:27.51ElrondAhh
17:27.54Vegarlike this? conductor | insulation | conductor
17:28.03SpeedEvilyeah
17:28.39Vegarclever
17:29.38Vegarthe arcticle says "100uA"; is that micro-amps?
17:29.40ElrondI like pH5's freeciv-on-neo pic. ;)
17:29.50SpeedEvilVegar: yes - for what?
17:29.55SpeedEvilwas that the standby RAM current?
17:30.12VegarPower_off mode
17:30.18SpeedEvilAh.
17:31.31Vegarso it should really say µA? (UTF8)
17:31.48SpeedEvilprobably, yes.
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17:32.14prpplagueElrond: with the addition of a 802.11, you are looking at adding about 1.5W to the overall power consumption
17:32.40SpeedEvilThat's rather pessimistic.
17:32.52SpeedEvilEven my zydas wifi dongle doesn't use that much.
17:33.01Vegar1.5W?
17:33.03Vegarnot mW?
17:33.05Elrondprpplague - Well, if the wifi can be turned of completely (no power consumption), I don't care for wifi ;)
17:33.27prpplagueSpeedEvil: 3.3v at 450mA peak for tx and 250mA for receive
17:33.33mwesterIt doubles as a hand-warmer in winter when operating in that mode, I guess?
17:36.09prpplagueElrond: yea, in low power modes you are looking at only 10mA even less in sleep modes
17:36.10prpplagueSpeedEvil: you measured the performance of your zydas dongle?
17:36.10SpeedEvilI did, but I forgot :(
17:36.11SpeedEvilIIRC it was 800mW or so active.
17:36.11SpeedEvilI don't remember though.
17:36.11rohprpplague don't say mA if you mean microAmpere
17:36.11roh;)
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17:36.18VegarSpeedEvil: that's pretty much, isn't it?
17:36.22prpplagueSpeedEvil: that sounds correct for receive only
17:36.26prpplagueroh: ?
17:36.45rohwifi-stuff, especially one designed for mobiles is not at power-req. of 1999 anymore
17:37.27prpplagueroh: i'm sorry, i'm not understanding you
17:37.58ewanm89I'm still waiting for openmoko to compile!
17:39.13prpplagueSpeedEvil: to get a good test you'd need to simulate some average tx and rx traffic
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17:40.35prpplagueSpeedEvil: we basically use netcat on both sides to generate an even taffic flow, 1024 bytes up, 1024 bytes down, repeat
17:41.18prpplagueSpeedEvil: you even out around 1.1W
17:41.36prpplagueSpeedEvil: but do peak around 1.5W with heavy traffic
17:43.31prpplaguedrath: you are getting 10:1 down:up? with what kind of usage?
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17:43.44dratheveryday-usage
17:44.08drathi suppose an enduser device would always be around that
17:44.31prpplaguedrath: web surfing, email, ssh client? that type of stuff?
17:44.34drathyeah
17:44.52drathwell, it's a bit biased atm, as i've been pulling larger packages lately
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17:45.04drathbut i guess i'm always around 5:1
17:45.45guaquait might even be higher ratio than 10:1
17:46.36drathwell, it's unlikely that you're going to leech a huge amount of music or videos with your moko
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17:47.06guaquawell if you only surf the web
17:47.18guaquahttp get isn't exactly heavy :)
17:47.26drathi've just reset the counters, reloaded all of my open webpages
17:47.35drathi'm at 5:1
17:47.57SpeedEviltcp negotiation hurts for small pages.
17:47.59prpplaguedrath: yea did a quick test, i'm getting about 5:1 as well when looking at bytes
17:48.15prpplaguedrath: packet wise i'm close to 1:1
17:48.29drathyeah, but that's to be expected
17:48.48drathwith the ACKs
17:49.07drathi actually have more outgoing packets than incoming
17:49.56prpplaguedrath: well you are looking at 250mA for rx and 450mA for tx
17:50.52drathprpplague: do you have control over the packet sizes?
17:51.14drathand, and drath == vmaster... decided to let go of my long-time nick
17:51.24prpplaguedrath: yea, i can set the mtu on both sides
17:51.36prpplaguedrath: oh, hehe
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17:52.44prpplaguedrath: hmm, a 5:1 does significant reduce the overall power, getting around 272mA at 3.3v
17:53.02prpplaguedrath: which is roughly 900mW
17:53.30SpeedEvilHow fast can you come up and login to an AP?
17:53.52drathprpplague: do you know how that varies with link quality?
17:54.06SpeedEvilI'm wondering about completely shutting off the radio for seconds at a time, and using a caching proxy.
17:54.27drathprpplague: when wifi is used as portable as in a phone, link quality might show a greater variance
17:54.56guaquaSpeedEvil: there has to be a solution that works on the go
17:54.57prpplagueSpeedEvil: yea, the marvell chipset we are using has a power save mode and a sleep mode that allow for quick restart of the network connection
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17:55.38prpplaguedrath: i've got a pretty good link quality, i'd have to wheel the meter out in parking lot to check on low quality rates
17:55.49drathheh, ok
17:56.01SpeedEvilAlternatively, put foil over the stick.
17:56.21mwesterFire up a microwave oven in the break room.
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17:57.28Vegarhow is the display on the neo? crystal clear?
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17:57.55drathit's said to be clearer than that
17:58.42zecke|mokohehe
17:59.19prpplaguedrath: hmm, that did increase to 328mA@3.3v
17:59.31prpplaguedrath: just a little over 1W
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17:59.53SpeedEvilSilly comment. Can you vary it under nominal V?
18:00.15SpeedEvilIt may be specced to 3.3V+-10%, for example.
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18:01.36Georg_MierschAnyone succeeded to order phase 1 device?
18:01.36alorilGeorg_Miersch: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
18:01.53prpplagueSpeedEvil: not with the current board, i guess i could get the lab guy to replace the fixed resistor with a pot
18:01.54SpeedEvilNot released yet.
18:02.08prpplagueSpeedEvil: but what really would that tell us?
18:02.28SpeedEvilIt can use less power.
18:03.15prpplagueSpeedEvil: ahh, yea, the variance on the marvell chipset we are using is +-5%
18:04.53Georg_MierschYes I know phase 1 device (neo1973) is about to be released but could anyone place an order and who is the person responsible to tell how to transfer money?
18:05.15guaquai think there will be info about it
18:05.20guaquait can't be done yet, Georg_Miersch
18:05.23SpeedEvilGeorg_Miersch: no info.
18:05.41SpeedEvilSubscribe to the email announce list.
18:05.43Georg_Mierschokay, I will see what "announce mailing list" will tell us...
18:06.47prpplagueSpeedEvil: yea just +-5%
18:07.22prpplagueSpeedEvil: which means you could safely run down to around 3.15v
18:07.33SpeedEvilProbably not that worth it.
18:07.46SpeedEvil10% is occasionally worth doing.
18:08.07prpplagueSpeedEvil: yea
18:08.11prpplagueSpeedEvil: i can see that
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18:09.03prpplagueSpeedEvil: we will have a pretty good size battery for this next project, so as long as we are careful we should be to do well
18:15.19SpeedEvilLarge batteries make things much easier.
18:17.43aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wishlist:Sport_tracker]]
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18:20.22prpplagueSpeedEvil: indeed
18:21.40prpplagueSpeedEvil: we are looking to use a 1s3p 18650 2200mAh for our base battery and 2600mAh cells for our extended battery pack
18:22.30prpplagueSpeedEvil: basically a total of 6600mAh at 3.3v or 7800mAh at 3.3v
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19:24.24balrog-kunit would be nice if the directory http://buildhost.openmoko.org/tmp/deploy/images/ had some symlinks with "current" in their names pointing to the most recent build
19:24.32balrog-kunfor scripting purposes
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19:36.02Elrondbalrog-kun - Not to mention, that it would be nice, if they were signed using gpg. ;)
19:36.29koenbalrog-kun: update OE and you get such behaviour
19:37.21koenhttp://www.angstrom-distribution.org/unstable/images/20070325/fic-gta01/ <- the names without numbers are symlinks to the lastest builds
19:37.46ElrondAhh. :)
19:40.20StylusEater_Workhow much space does an openmoko image take up on disk? through OE compilation?
19:40.40koendepends on your config
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19:41.39koenfits in 1GB with rm_work
19:42.06StylusEater_Workok...thx
19:42.23StylusEater_Workare there any current "focus" areas?
19:42.54StylusEater_Workwithin the source tree that need more work than other areas?
19:43.11koenTBH, everything still needs *lots* of works
19:43.50StylusEater_WorkTBH?
19:43.58StylusEater_Workto be honest?
19:44.06StylusEater_Workk, thx
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20:49.05LuitvDlol, that was a nice netsplit :)
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21:16.44aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]]
21:17.39Kerosomebody already made a GPScoords-to-timezone table/library/whatever ?
21:19.55CIA-16openmoko: 03laforge * r1544 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-smdk2440.patch: add proper 2440 initialization to head.S
21:21.56Elrondprpplague - Does smdk2440 tell you anything?
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21:23.16drathElrond: smdk* are Samsung's eval boards for the S3C series
21:23.34drathso smdk2440 is the dev board for their s3c2440 uC
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21:25.42Elronddrath - Ahh. :-)
21:26.05drath300/400mhz arm920t
21:26.09ElrondSo some next toy from fic will have an 2440. ;)
21:26.37drathif they want an easy switch to a faster uC for P1+ then this one might be a natural choice
21:26.43Elronddrath - Do you know of your head the power comsumption in relation to the s3c2410 ?
21:26.56prpplaguewell, the smdk2440 board actually can use the 2443 cpu board as well
21:26.57drathsorry, no idea
21:27.17prpplaguei actually think you have to order a 2440 board and then order a 2443 cpu board seperately
21:27.24drathlol
21:27.35drath24A0 would've been nice
21:28.43ElrondCM - Yep. Hope the same... I wonder why he works on new toys... is GTA01Bv04 fully ready now?
21:28.45prpplagueElrond: what was your question on power consumption?
21:29.37SpeedEvilI assume it's the relative power consumption of the 2440 and the 2410
21:30.17Elrondprpplague - 2440/2443 in relation to 2410.  Will it eat more power?
21:30.29ElrondSpeedEvil - Right.
21:31.06drathARM 926EJ 24A0's Feature + Teak DSP + 3D(1M) + USB OTG 416FBGA - now that's a monster
21:31.39prpplagueElrond: yea, we are calculating a 20 to 30% increase in cpu current
21:32.27Elrond:-(
21:32.42ElrondSo I'll want the 2410.
21:32.53SpeedEvilWell - it depends on the idle current.
21:33.03SpeedEvilIf they are teh same, then you don't care from that perspective.
21:33.20ElrondHmm, yeah.
21:34.14ElrondFor the same job it'll take less time (due to faster clock), so more current for that time doesn't hurt too much. But idle hurts.
21:35.43ElrondHi CoreDump
21:35.46prpplaguewhat was that url with the power states for neo?
21:35.54CoreDump|homehi
21:36.04prpplaguenm found it
21:36.06SpeedEviloh
21:36.36*** join/#openmoko _ASK (n=chatzill@189.146.153.95)
21:36.42_ASKhey
21:36.55SpeedEvilhey
21:37.57_ASKwhat's the minimum RAM for openmoko?
21:37.58prpplagueactually from what i'm seeing the power increase shouldn't be that bad for just the cpu
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21:38.23SpeedEvilRAM can hurt.
21:38.30Elrondprpplague - You mean <10%?
21:40.33balrog-kunyay, u-boot menu
21:42.42prpplagueElrond: from my test here, we are running 400mhz with a fairly heavy load and we are looking at about 420mW, which compared to our standard of around 320mW at 200mhz(similiar to whats posted for the neo), thats about at 31% increase
21:43.13SpeedEvilIs that 400MHz RAM/... too?
21:43.28prpplagueElrond: but thats still less than the 450mW when running at 266mhz on the 2410
21:44.18_ASK400 MHz RAM on a handheld?
21:44.21SpeedEvilCan it be run at 200MHz?
21:44.30SpeedEvilI mean - the power figure
21:44.44SpeedEvilDoes it include power drawn by RAM and other stuff.
21:44.53prpplagueSpeedEvil: 133mhz sdram
21:45.37_ASKhope they release cheap DDR3 RAM soon
21:45.39Stephmwwould it make sense to programatically slow down the ram refresh?
21:45.45Stephmwpower-wise?
21:45.47_ASKDDR3 consumes way les power
21:45.49SpeedEvilProbably not.
21:46.08SpeedEvilit's not really so much refresh, but bandwidth
21:46.16SpeedEvilmore transfer = more current
21:46.31Stephmwah. so quiescent = low power
21:46.38SpeedEvilYeah.
21:46.42_ASKdo you think openmoko can run with 32 mb of RAM?
21:47.03Elrond_ASK - Will be tricky, I guess. X, Gtk, dbus, ...
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21:47.32_ASKi wonder if i'm too old already. my first windows 95 computer ran with 8mb.
21:47.46_ASKnow a phone doesn't work properly with 32...
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21:47.54Elrond_ASK - My first linux ran on 4mb. :-)
21:48.04SpeedEvilMy first PC was 4M.
21:48.07_ASKwell but console vs GUI
21:48.08Stephmwwell MY.... oh nevermind
21:48.23ElrondMy first pc was an 8086 with 1MB ;o)
21:48.27SpeedEvilFirst computer was ZX81 - with the 16K expansion pack.
21:48.53Stephmwmine was an Amstrad CPC 128k... with 3" floppy drive no less
21:48.59Stephmwman, I was spoilt
21:49.15SpeedEvilI moved onto a CPC512
21:49.19ElrondHmm, at those times I playd with 370s ;o)
21:49.28SpeedEvilPCW8521 ratehr
21:49.39SpeedEvil8512
21:49.43Stephmwmy next one was the Elrond's 8086, but with only 640k
21:49.44_ASK32 should be enough, don't you think?
21:49.56_ASKi ask because i was thinking about porting it to the treo
21:49.58SpeedEvil_ASK: It's quite irrelevant what we think.
21:50.05Stephmw_ASK: 32mb should be doable... but you may have to trim
21:50.07SpeedEvilThe important thing is reality.
21:50.12Elrond_ASK - Just try it?
21:50.22SpeedEvilI think 32M should be possible, but maybe tough.
21:50.32ElrondRight, it will be tough.
21:50.39ElrondShrink kernel, etc.
21:50.58SpeedEvilJust do a console based phone.
21:51.00SpeedEvilncurses.
21:51.11Elrond:-)
21:51.13_ASKi'd rather stay with palmos =)
21:51.30ElrondSomeone in here had some phone-tui.... I forgot his nick.
21:51.41SpeedEvilpavelm?
21:51.48ElrondProbably. :)
21:52.23_ASKnah, i think i'm going to insist that they make a neo phone with integrated keyboard.
21:53.06Elrond_ASK - openmoko really is "use desktop tools on a phone".  For 32MB (without swap!) you have to be tough. :)
21:53.16SpeedEvilOr ancient.
21:53.18Elrondrwhitby - *g* :-)
21:53.54_ASKi have three cats.
21:54.09guaquai like to eat hamburgers
21:54.28Stephmw_ASK: my cat eats mice... http://rifers.org/paste/content/paste/4147/image
21:54.31_ASKtwo of them are inherited instances of the other.
21:54.34Stephmw_ASK: and squirrels, but no photos
21:55.22_ASKnice kitty ;)
21:55.50guaquai like this discussion a lot better
21:55.52Stephmw15 squirrels last year ;)
21:56.04Stephmw.. that we know of
21:56.30_ASKah... those little merciless assasins are so cute, aren't they?
22:01.29_ASKhttp://mikemex.t35.com/phone/telefono2.png
22:03.07Stephmwhmmmm... looks familiar
22:03.10high-rezlooks like a crackberry
22:04.35Elrond*berry... oh well. No, please not.
22:04.47_ASKonce i have the final design i will submit it to sean moss
22:04.54guaquatoo many buttons
22:05.06guaquai like simple joystick the best
22:05.23SpeedEvilI'd like a proportional stick.
22:05.40_ASKi would like mind reading but a keyboard is as close as we get
22:05.51ElrondNo brainlink? ;o)
22:06.22_ASKi really wonder why everybody thinks it has too much buttons
22:06.40_ASKit doesn't have more than any phone with a full keyboard
22:07.06StephmwElrond: well... you could use it as a blunt instrument
22:07.42ElrondBecause phones-with-full-keyboard is for wanna-be-business-punches
22:07.57Stephmwpaunches!
22:08.51hadaraactually I think brainlink might be doable, openeeg project has been working on smaller designs latelly :-)
22:08.54Elronds/punche/clown/
22:09.06guaquai'd like to have that hexinput
22:09.13guaquaand see how it really works
22:09.30guaquais there a SoC application for it?
22:09.55drathoh please, what kind of geeks are you... as if three buttons wouldn't already be one too much
22:10.08draths/much/many/
22:10.27Elrond*G*
22:10.34*** join/#openmoko zween (n=zween@80-47-207-254.lond-th.dynamic.dial.as9105.com)
22:10.42Elrondunix mice are meant to have three buttons. So.
22:10.50guaquadrath: morse code, one button
22:11.02drathheh, i said geek, not dead
22:11.23_ASKwell, mortals prefeer real keyboards i think
22:11.35guaquapalm graffiti is nice too
22:11.43drathyeah, i'd love to have a 26+ button handy
22:11.45_ASKbut palms had a dedicated area
22:12.02high-rezyeah tripple tapping sucks.  Real kb's - like on the blackjack, treo's are the ultimate.
22:12.02_ASKthe problem is doing everything on the screen
22:12.05guaqua_ASK: i don't see a problem with it
22:12.16high-rezWe sell far more of those devices than devices that do handwriting recognition.
22:12.54_ASKyeah, that's what i say, keyboards exist for a reason
22:13.30guaquahigh-rez: argumenting the superiority of an input methods with the sales figures is not something i call scientific
22:13.36guaquabut i guess it goes if all goes
22:14.15high-rezquaga: Certainly, when picking a method of input on a device that is highly driven by this, should be done by looking at what people actually buy.
22:14.40SpeedEvilIMO, the right solution is prolly 3 devices.
22:14.47_ASKi installed insane amounts of software on my treo and i find the keyboard invaluable; i bet the problem is that most people do very little with their phones, no more than one or two SMS a day or so
22:14.56SpeedEvilscreen + stick, and not much more.
22:15.05SpeedEvilscreen+conventional hardware buttons
22:15.07rwhitby_ASK: that's the key - how much real software you use on the phone.
22:15.15SpeedEvilscreen + qwerty
22:15.27SpeedEvilfor different people.
22:15.28rwhitby(i.e. stuff with significant text entry like emails or IRC)
22:15.49high-rezIf the intention is to sell a device to carriers, (i'm not sure if it is), the device *must* be very usable for data services - they drive all revenue gain for carriers.
22:16.04rwhitbybut this is a religious argument anyway.
22:16.23SpeedEvilIdeally, come september, you'll be able to buy a subsidised neo.
22:16.26_ASKyeah, just tastes, i just say, don't left people who likes keyboards out
22:16.56high-rezrwhitby: Not really, comparing two devices for sale side by side, all things the same, the device with the keyboard usually outsells.  Devices with lots of features, big screens etc, are usually used by the user who does more than just talk on his device.
22:17.12SpeedEvilFor example, I can't actually buy a decent data plan without getting a moderately expensive mobile.
22:18.22high-rezSpeed: You can buy unlimited data plans irrespective of a device.  They're just addon to the service agreement.
22:18.22*** join/#openmoko mphill (n=mphill@CPE-70-92-242-47.wi.res.rr.com)
22:18.22_ASKdepends on where you live, but generally true
22:18.26dhoit's b.s.
22:18.28SpeedEvilNot really.
22:18.38dhocingular charges you hella extra for the same damn data plan
22:18.40high-rezSpeed: Are you in the US?
22:19.25_ASKi can purchase a data connection here; it's optional
22:19.25SpeedEvilThe cheapest way for me to get an unlimited data plan is to get an 18 month contract for 22 pounds/month.
22:19.25rwhitbyhigh-rez: yeah, but people with strong views on what they personally want don't care about sales facts.  from the hardware manufacturers point of view it is not religious, but from the individual consumers point of view it is.  and all IRC discussions are usually just individual consumers arguing with each other, rather than people being able to take a manufacturer's viewpoint
22:19.25dho(depending on whether you have a pdaphone or not)
22:19.25SpeedEvilWith virgin mobile.
22:19.26SpeedEvilThis comes with a MDA for 9.99.
22:19.27CoreDump|homedoes anyone know a good / cheap data-plan for germany? :\
22:19.29high-rezdho: You can add the pda-connect plan to your service plan....
22:19.32SpeedEvilAll other data services pretty much are 30 quid a month add-on.
22:19.40_ASKrwhitby: develop your idea
22:19.46dhohigh-rez: It's _so_ much more expensive than MEdia net
22:19.49guaquaargumenting the superiority of a subsidised phone with the fact that your current carrier makes you pay extra for the stuff...err
22:20.03SpeedEvilThis is 8 quid cheaper per month, and comes with a 170 quid phone. which is silly.
22:20.08dho(and MEdia net works fine for them. I know. I had it before they realized I had a PDA phone)
22:20.29high-rezdho: MediaNet is pay-per-kilobyte.  If you actually use your device, specially where hsdpa/umts is available, the $60/mo is well worth it for pda-connect.  :)
22:21.19_ASKmy point is: you have not really a phone, but a whole computer already: 640x480 screen, 128MB of RAM, 266 MHz processor
22:21.30dhoI don't live anywhere nead where HSDPA or UMTS is available
22:21.48_ASKwithout a keyboard it will be difficult o use to browse Internet for example
22:21.48high-rezdho: Where at? It might be there soon.  ;)
22:21.48dhohigh-rez: and there's a MEdiaNet unlimited package
22:21.48guaquawrong, _ASK
22:21.52dhoMillerton, NY :P
22:22.26_ASKeach time you find a text box a virtual keyboard shows up and allows you to see nothing below
22:22.51guaquayou are only thinking of the current, bad ways of doing it
22:23.07guaquado i hear a floating transparent keyboard?
22:23.20_ASKbut alpha blending is worse
22:23.22dhobluetooth keyboard ftw
22:23.26high-rezdho: not sure about that area, but the rollout of wcdma is happening very fast.
22:23.30_ASKbecause you often can either see what's below or what's up
22:23.32_ASKit's a mess
22:23.58dhohigh-rez: *shrugs* I have 30Mbit/5Mbit cable at home and I'm usually either there or the office when I need a connection
22:24.05dhoOtherwise I usually just don't wanna be bothered :)
22:24.27high-rezdho: It's nice.  I'm a wireless data addict, but then I don't pay for it ;)
22:24.40dhohigh-rez: lucky.
22:24.41_ASKto have good contrast you must make it opaque, and we return to my point
22:24.44Elronddho - :-)))
22:25.16dhoI'll be happy when I get Plan 9 running on the 1973.
22:26.00Elronddho - I never looked at plan9. Is it worth looking at it?
22:26.08high-rezdho: And a little inferno? :)
22:26.18dhoElrond: In my opinion, definitely
22:26.25dhohigh-rez: That would work by default
22:26.51djsuszidho where are you from ?
22:26.51alorildjsuszi: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
22:26.51dhohigh-rez: You could (cross)compile it anyway, but I'm not going to do a native port
22:26.59djsuszinice link at home :)
22:27.05dhodjsuszi: Millerton, NY
22:27.09dhomiddle of nowhere
22:27.23dhobut luckily, we have cablevision and they aren't stingy on bandwidth
22:27.53LarstiQdho: ah, I thought you looked familiar :)
22:28.12_ASKiPhone, for example, has a virtual keyboard, but screen is 3.5"
22:28.14Elronddho - Anything in particular?
22:28.25dhoLarstiQ: hah
22:28.39dhoLarstiQ: don't be fooled, in real life, I hack FreeBSD for a living
22:28.48Stephmw_ASK: meh, I'm utterly unconvinced by that virtual keyboard
22:29.12Stephmw_ASK: any dedicated texter knows you use both thumbs ;)
22:29.29dhoElrond: It certainly takes an interesting approach to networking (among other things). It's a good development environment and it's a great development platform too
22:29.31_ASKexactly
22:30.32_ASKand needs tactical feedback
22:30.32Elronddho - Ahh. :)
22:30.33benJImanDo you mean tactile?
22:30.33_ASKtactile, yes
22:30.33guaquayou are making a lot of assumptions
22:30.33ElrondOther thing: Does anyone know, if the Neo-v1 has all the brandings needed to legally use in Germany?
22:30.45CoreDump|homethere is no branding on neo. That's the entire point....
22:30.59_ASKnah
22:31.04_ASKif they give you trouble
22:31.10_ASKjust call an university
22:31.12Elronds/branding/certs/
22:31.25_ASKand ask them to back you up saying it's a project.
22:31.28CoreDump|homeElrond: ah, sorry. I misunderstood =)
22:31.29guaquaCoreDump|home: some people would like to see branded, subsided neo
22:31.51ElrondCoreDump|home - I probably used to wrong term anyway. Couldn't think of certs in the first place.
22:32.10TRIsoftThe Phase1 models actually don't have CE/FCC certs
22:32.13_ASKjust mention the words "linux" and "phone" to any geek and you'll have an army supporting you =)
22:32.14CoreDump|homeguaqua: well, to each his own I guess. Neo could probably be locked down tight if need be (ie: unflashable w/o debugoard)
22:32.30Stephmw_ASK: or just drown in the drool
22:33.08TRIsoftCoreDump|home LOL
22:33.30guaquai've only seen bad examples of branding and subsidization
22:33.34CoreDump|homeTRIsoft: well, if anyone here knows what can be sold and used in .de it would be you guys ;)
22:33.41ElrondTRIsoft - So for certs I have to wait until September?
22:34.00TRIsoftThe first models with direct delivery don't need certs.
22:34.20TRIsoftAnd FIC is working on it. But testing needs time and the hardware is too fresh...
22:34.37TRIsoftWe're also working on this issue
22:35.25LarstiQTRIsoft: if the first models don't need it, what exactly are the certs for?
22:35.46LarstiQconsumer safety?
22:35.47ElrondAny chance for the v04 getting the certs, or is the whole testing/certification postponed until the final mass-market model is ready?
22:35.55TRIsoftIf you (as a company) sell a device, it needs to have CE /FCC certification and testing.
22:36.16LarstiQTRIsoft: but why?
22:36.16TRIsoftIf you personally import something, you don't have to care about it as long as it doesn't crash networks ;-)
22:36.23_ASKyeah, or a SWAT team will be asking for your address.
22:36.31LarstiQright, that's what I'm asking
22:36.52TRIsoftPretty simple stuff. EU = EC  US = FCC
22:36.58LarstiQ_ASK: the houses here look all the same ;)
22:37.12TRIsoftAnd CE / FCC testing is pretty much the same.
22:37.23TRIsoftJust a bunch of regulations a device has to match.
22:38.05_ASKyeah, that's why I insist to people here that a phone is not the same as a desktop; they think too abstractly, but real people needs ergonomics and such
22:38.11LarstiQTRIsoft: is there an easy list of what regulations a device has to match?
22:38.17TRIsoftIn most times just a lot of money for the testing lab and maybe some copper foil to put inside ;-)
22:38.31TRIsoftSure. Let me have a look. 1 sec.
22:39.08TRIsoftGo to http://www.trisoft.de/en_c3200howto.htm and d/l the "startupguide"
22:39.48TRIsoftPage 38 is the "Declaration of conformity" with the list of all regulations and tests.
22:40.01_ASKthe phone must be somewhat hermetic because if water reaches the battery and shorts the thing out, it could explode
22:40.11SpeedEvilNot really.
22:40.20SpeedEvilthe battery is sealed.
22:40.25SpeedEvilsomewhat.
22:40.27_ASKhave you ever shorted out a battery?
22:40.31LarstiQhermetic makes me think of magic, not water.
22:40.32SpeedEvilYes.
22:40.33CoreDump|homeI have
22:40.36mwesterWater doesn't conduct particularly well, if it's clean.
22:40.42SpeedEvilwater doesn't conduct very well.
22:40.46CoreDump|homeonly shitty batteries "explode"
22:41.05CoreDump|homemost get quite warm tho...
22:41.13mwesterrainwater and mud puddles are not short-circuit-causing, or automobiles the world over would be blazing furiously.
22:41.13_ASKall batteries explode, it's a natural consequence of chemical reactions going too fast
22:41.26SpeedEvilBullshit.
22:41.32CoreDump|homeBS indeed ;)
22:41.41mwesterInternal impedance is a factor :)
22:42.11_ASKit's not a chemical explosion, it's mechanical; lots of vapor until it makes boom.
22:42.24LarstiQTRIsoft: thanks, radiation mostly?
22:42.25ElrondTRIsoft - Any certs info on the GTA01Bv04?
22:42.38SpeedEvilAnd if the cell does not release energy fast enough to make vapour, it won't explode.
22:42.39ElrondHi mickeyl!
22:43.02_ASKwell, manufaturers must try to monomize such risks
22:43.04TRIsoftRadiation is the worst. But also burst and surge tests. A device must work even with some kilovolt pulse on the AC adapter and stuff.
22:43.07StephmwTRIsoft: I'd completely forgotten about your company ;) thanks for the link
22:43.11mickeylcheers guys
22:43.18TRIsoftwaves to mickeyl
22:43.20mickeylanyone know offhand where ldconfig is in debian sarge?
22:43.27_ASKhttp://gizmodo.com/gadgets/laptops/dell-laptop-explodes-in-flames-182257.php
22:43.58CoreDump|home_ASK: as I said..shitty (faulty) batteries
22:44.09CoreDump|homemickeyl: libc6: /sbin/ldconfig
22:44.20SpeedEvilBecause one laptop explodes does not mean that all laptops explode, any more than you will certainly survive if I throw you naked out of a plane at 30000 feet.
22:44.22mickeylCoreDump|home: could you check which package this belongs to?
22:44.31CoreDump|homemickeyl: yeah, "libc6" ;)
22:44.36mickeylurghs
22:44.38mickeylodd
22:44.47mickeylhmm
22:45.01_ASKall chemical batteries explode given the right circumstances, those simply explode spntaneously
22:45.21CoreDump|homemickeyl: http://rafb.net/p/VhZPur97.html
22:45.32SpeedEvilMost chemical batteries simply won't explode starting from room temperature.
22:45.41CoreDump|home_ASK: please....
22:45.48SpeedEvilThey do not have the energy to heat themselves to failure.
22:45.48StephmwSpeedEvil: since when has rational thought trumped FUD?
22:45.57mickeylCoreDump|home: ah excellent. it's just not in the user's path. thanks
22:46.05SpeedEvilMany - for example, lithium coin cells, or zinc-air won't even get warm.
22:46.07CoreDump|homenp =)
22:46.10_ASKok, we aren't going to reach an agreement, let's leave it as it is
22:46.10SpeedEvilif shorted
22:46.22Stephmwmickeyl: yeah, I think it's expected to only be used by root
22:46.38mickeyli always abuse it to recreate the links
22:46.39_ASKbut I've read some documents of tests done by agencies and you'll be surprised to know how many shot can happen
22:46.41mickeylsudo ldconfig -nv .
22:46.42*** join/#openmoko Zoolooc (n=Zoolooc@p5495272f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
22:46.44mickeylvery helpful
22:46.50_ASK* shit
22:46.50mickeylwhen you have to deal with binary only .so's
22:47.01CoreDump|home*cough*nvidia
22:47.41*** join/#openmoko Demitar (n=demitar@c-212-031-183-175.cust.broadway.se)
22:48.19mickeylheh
22:48.21mickeyleven worse
22:48.31mickeylbinary only .so's given by client
22:48.41mickeyland i need to write software on top
22:48.50CoreDump|homeouch
22:48.54mickeylya
22:49.15Elrondmickeyl - gpsd? ;-)
22:49.25CoreDump|homehmm =)
22:49.26mickeylElrond: no, non OM related :/
22:49.35ElrondOh, okay. :-/
22:50.41ElrondTRIsoft - Do you know any specifics -- which you may tell us -- about the neo CE/FCC certification?
22:50.53Elrond... i.e. if/when it'll happen.
22:50.54rohmickeyl are the symbols striped?
22:51.10_ASKbut it's AGPS, isn't it?
22:51.28CoreDump|home_ASK: the A in AGPS doesn't matter ;)
22:51.29TRIsoftElrond: Sorry, no. Afaik, they're in the testing process actually.
22:51.32SpeedEvilAGPS=GPS
22:51.36Elrond_ASK - It's gps. ignore the A, please.
22:51.38SpeedEvilthe A is mostly hype
22:51.38mickeylnomickey@debian:~/projekte/honda-research/intens/precompiled/lib$ file libAny.so
22:51.38mickeyllibAny.so: ELF 32-bit LSB shared object, Intel 80386, version 1 (SYSV), not stripped
22:51.47mickeylthankfully not
22:51.48Stephmwmickeyl: are you contracting freely then?
22:51.56mickeylStephmw: yeah
22:51.57rohmickeyl hey.. thats a start
22:52.00TRIsoftElrond: We're also curious about the results.
22:52.09CoreDump|homehehe
22:52.10SpeedEvilA is only important if you can't get a view of the sky for 12 minutes easily.
22:52.12ElrondTRIsoft - Do those tests take forever, or do we have some chances? :)
22:52.14rohmickeyl so you have idapro at hand?
22:52.15mickeylthe thing is... i signed that contract last year when I thought OM project was over by now
22:52.21mickeyl:)
22:52.22_ASKi was on the idea that AGPS lacked hardware
22:52.32_ASKlike an AC97 sound card
22:52.33SpeedEvillook at [[agps]] on the wiki
22:52.35SpeedEvilfor the detail
22:52.42TRIsoftElrond: Our lab normally needs about a week for a device. Some tests run over 24 hours each.
22:52.49CoreDump|home_ASK: I believe there is a very informative entry about AGPS in the wiki somewhere
22:53.00SpeedEvilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hardware:AGPS
22:53.09mickeylroh: well, it's not that bad. i just have some problems with running this libs (which have been compiled against glibc 2.3.x) on glibc 2.4 systems
22:53.10ElrondTRIsoft - Okay, so less than a month. :-))
22:53.15*** join/#openmoko ruskie (i=ruskie@sourcemage/mage/ruskie)
22:53.15mickeylcrashes in realloc
22:53.21mickeyland it doesn't occur in glibc 2.3.x
22:53.45TRIsoftElrond: We're in the same boat. We also want the Neo yesterday ;-)
22:53.54mickeyli thought glibc was supposed to be compatible across minor versions
22:54.03mickeylapparantly there are subtle issues
22:54.03*** join/#openmoko ruskie (i=ruskie@sourcemage/mage/ruskie)
22:54.05mickeyl*sigh*
22:54.17mickeylCoreDump|home: thanks. installing Sarge in a VMware just now
22:54.28mickeylbeing a non-debian user it's kind of a cultural shock
22:54.31mickeylheh
22:54.33CoreDump|homeTRIsoft: you are going to distribute the P1 devices then? =)
22:54.59CoreDump|homemickeyl: Debian is The True Linux ;) /me dons fire-proof suit
22:55.03TRIsoftCoreDump|home: Stupid, but true answer: We don't know now. Depends on FIC.
22:55.30ElrondTRIsoft - Why do you want it yesterday?
22:55.48TRIsoftElrond: Because i would have played a lot with it today :D
22:56.03CoreDump|homeElrond: which self-respecting geek _wouldn't_ want to play w/ a neo? heh
22:56.23StephmwSpeedEvil: just caught up with your gps error distribution, thanks for that gif
22:56.24_ASKwikipedia lied me about AGPS.
22:56.24TobiXCoreDump|home: I also like Debian, but I would never install it for my mother, father or sister...
22:56.57ElrondTRIsoft, CoreDump|home - :-))
22:56.59SpeedEvilStephmw: that is with a pretty old GPS - however, it is a multi-channel one, so it should be broadly similar.
22:57.03CoreDump|homeTobiX: On that we can agree heh
22:57.34StephmwSpeedEvil: I wonder how much some number crunching on the values would help
22:57.44SpeedEvilStephmw: Essentially none.
22:58.02SpeedEvilStephmw: Unless you are doing the DGPS thing, the raw satellite numbers coming to you are wrong.
22:58.14ShoraganBB_NUMBER_THREADS is nice :)
22:58.30SpeedEvilAveraging for 24 hours significantly helps, but...
22:58.59SpeedEvilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hardware:AGPS#Q:_What_is_DGPS.2C_can_DGPS_and_A-GPS_work_together.3F
22:59.10ElrondShoragan - Is it in main debian, or just _for_ Debian?
22:59.12StephmwSpeedEvil: hmmm.. I was thinking of impulse analysis or other polynomial derivatives
22:59.18Shoraganfor debian
22:59.31Shoraganit will be in debian after the etch release
22:59.51ElrondShoragan - It's already in experimental or unstable? :)
22:59.58StephmwSpeedEvil: I'll have a play when I get a P1.5 / P2
23:00.01SpeedEvilBasically - as I understand it - no - as the fundamental per-satellite error is a short-term fixed-ish error.
23:00.01ShoraganElrond: neither
23:00.24SpeedEvilWhich unless you can derive it from other sources, you can't correct for.
23:00.33ElrondShoragan - Just get it into unstable. It's a new package, it wont ever move to etch anyway. :)
23:00.54Shoraganyes, but the ftp-masters are busy anyway ;)
23:01.09ElrondAhh. :-)
23:01.25StephmwSpeedEvil: about the 24hrs comment... I can see that'd be the exception, do you think it'd converge over a week?
23:01.38SpeedEvilIt doesn't really converge as such.
23:01.50SpeedEvilThe error just gets smaller.
23:01.58SpeedEvilAnd that only gives you one point.
23:02.05_ASKhahaha "as long as it's closed source, you can point at the evil hackers, and say that you never did it."
23:02.53SpeedEvilDGPS can in principle give positions under a meter or so anywhere you've got an internet connection.
23:02.54ElrondTRIsoft - CE is all, that is needed to legally sell/use the neo in .de?
23:03.30TRIsoftElrond: That's the most critical thing. But you also need RoHS conformity, WEEE, green dot, battery recycling....
23:03.47*** join/#openmoko ebel_ (n=rory@A-110-199.cust.iol.ie)
23:04.22ElrondTRIsoft - So another month for the rest, is your company going to do some of that stuff?
23:05.11TRIsoftElrond: We're just waiting for the "GO" from FIC. We could have finished all that stuff...
23:05.35ElrondTRIsoft - Ahh, cool. :-))
23:05.48_ASKwhat company is that?
23:05.57Elrond_ASK - www.trisoft.de ;)
23:06.35LarstiQElrond: sell I hope, CE for use seems a bit heavy
23:06.39_ASKah, sie kommen aus Deutschland.
23:06.59TRIsoft_ASK genau ;-)
23:07.55ElrondJa :)
23:08.11*** join/#openmoko maydaytx (i=johndoe@cpe-72-178-73-122.hot.res.rr.com)
23:08.41LarstiQTRIsoft: you're not carrying miniSD?
23:09.02TRIsoftLarstiQ: I think miniSD will be added soon ;-)
23:09.50LarstiQTRIsoft: good :)
23:10.28TRIsoftBut, what is a miniSD good for, if i don't have a Neo to play with :-(
23:11.51ElrondWait? I thought, the neo has microsd? Or is that the same as minisd?
23:11.58SpeedEvilno
23:12.03SpeedEvilmicro is smaller
23:12.40ElrondTRIsoft - Will your shop include the neo?
23:12.59TRIsoftElrond: I hope so.
23:13.10ElrondCool. :-)
23:13.57*** join/#openmoko msroest (n=msroest@c-68-33-182-89.hsd1.dc.comcast.net)
23:14.24_ASKyou should try to convince google to port googlemaps to openmoko
23:14.53_ASKif google accepts, that's enough reason for other companies to take it seriously =)
23:15.03LarstiQGoogle Earth?
23:15.22_ASKyeah, it's called googlemaps in mobile devices i think
23:15.41SpeedEvilthat sucks though in many places as it requires connectivity.
23:16.00_ASKnot because you like the program
23:16.07_ASKit's a political strategy
23:16.08LarstiQElrond: woops, the other small sd format with an m ;)
23:16.12TobiX"Google Maps" is the wep app, "Google Earth" the 3D/GL desktop application...
23:16.24TobiXThey share a lot of map data these days...
23:16.33_ASKgoogle ports an application to openmoko = google thinks openmoko is important
23:16.37LarstiQsure, but maps.google.com should not be a problem :)
23:16.38_ASKand google is like god this days.
23:16.44aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Hardware:AGPS]]
23:16.49LarstiQ_ASK: more and more a fallen one
23:17.25TobiXLarstiQ: You just need a current browser with JavaScript, Minimo should work... But I don't know, how well that works on a "slow" CPU...
23:18.27TobiXA special client application would be cooler... But Google has already asked open source apps that used the Google Earth map download to stop using that service...
23:21.41*** join/#openmoko Moo^^ (n=moo@owla-gw.cust.eunet.fi)
23:21.50_ASKagain, it's a political strategy. right now, there isn't much people who knows about openmoko, much less those in the industry who belive on it
23:22.08ElrondTRIsoft - Does the "Regulierungsbehoerde" also need to be asked about the neo?
23:22.59TRIsoftElrond: No. If you successfully survived the CE conformity, there's no further testing or OK required.
23:23.20ElrondTRIsoft - Ahh, good. :-))
23:23.21*** join/#openmoko darmou (n=darmou@mail.planforlife.com.au)
23:24.13TRIsoft:D
23:24.45Elrondunless you take much more than $350 + duty + VAT ;)
23:25.10*** join/#openmoko Zoolooc_ (n=Zoolooc@p54952849.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
23:25.24TRIsoftElrond: Give us some time... it actually doesn't depend on us.
23:25.30_ASKdistributors can ask for discounts at FIC, I think
23:26.05Elrond_ASK - I'd assume that.
23:27.06ElrondTRIsoft - I want to wait a bit anyway to see, if the P1 thingies work out in the real world. I don't want to pay that much money for something that has a battery life of say a few hours. ;o)
23:28.06TRIsoftWe'll keep you guys updated. Promised.
23:28.25LarstiQElrond: that's about a few hours longer than my ipod ;)
23:28.38*** join/#openmoko wildfire (n=wildfire@203.7.227.146)
23:28.49peepsalotcounter
23:28.50alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, a day 12:31:09 (8.522 +-7.0 days) (662)
23:29.35mickeylheh
23:29.53mickeyl~praise QMutexLocker
23:30.04aptAll hail QMutexLocker!
23:31.52*** join/#openmoko thomasg_gpm (n=thomasg@p57afc938.dip.t-dialin.net)
23:34.42thomasg_gpmdoes somebody know if help is needed for translating the openmoko apps/UI?
23:39.11balrog-kunwow, a lot has changed since P0
23:43.15ElrondLarstiQ - I wont buy an ipod, so what? ;o)
23:43.22thomasg_gpmcowon
23:43.44balrog-kunhow do you scroll in the calls history in the dialer? :P
23:43.58balrog-kunthere are some call that i have never made :p
23:44.46Elrond*G*
23:45.09Elrondbalrog-kun - The neo did them for you. ;o)
23:45.19ElrondUsing the integrated voice synthesizer ;)
23:45.33balrog-kunoh right :p
23:45.38*** part/#openmoko dirakx (n=jcortes@69.79.145.81)
23:45.50balrog-kunactually, i was wondering if there are any easter eggs planned for OpenMoko
23:45.57balrog-kunlike maybe a flight simulator
23:46.00thomasg_gpmoh, Elrond, I bet apple has a patent on leting the phone do calls for you automatically :)
23:46.40balrog-kunwho called "ken" and "steven" on my (virtual) phone?
23:47.45Elrondthomasg_gpm - ;-)
23:47.57balrog-kunoh the wheel works
23:48.08Elrondbalrog-kun - Is barbie also in the list? ;o)
23:48.23balrog-kunjust in the opposite direction to the expected
23:48.58*** join/#openmoko merriam_ (n=merriam@85-211-199-148.dyn.gotadsl.co.uk)
23:49.04balrog-kunElrond: nope, but there's "tony", "sally" and "chaowei" when i scroll down
23:49.37balrog-kunactually my phone only called "sally",
23:49.41balrog-kunthe other calls are incoming
23:52.19Elrondtihi. ;)
23:56.55TRIsoftgtg, cu
23:59.50balrog-kunthe top menu bar of openmoko is lacking some thing compared to the matchbox menu bar

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