IRC log for #openmoko on 20070325

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00:30.58aevinabraxa_: from? you mean to, right?
00:31.39abraxa_Yeah, forgot that he's from down under
00:33.29aevinyup. they're all backwards down there :)
00:34.27thomasg__counter
00:34.27alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, 5 days 11:25:32 (12.476 +-7.0 days) (620)
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01:14.20OcibuHas anyone had a build error on gcc-cross-4.1.1-r12 claiming an unreconized option `-Qy`  ?
01:14.20alorilOcibu: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
01:16.38OcibuI get the error using the mokomakefile to run the command and if I do the build from scratch steps manually
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02:15.03*** topic/#openmoko is OpenMoko Community Lounge <> Free Your Phone <> {www|wiki|bugzilla|planet|projects|lists|svn|svnweb } .openmoko.org | You can buy it around the end of this month for $350, see the wiki. Mass market in September.
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02:28.12Skye_am_ihello?
02:28.12alorilSkye_am_i: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
02:28.48Skye_am_iwhy are the rooms not categorized . . .
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02:32.47OcibuHas anyone had a build error on gcc-cross-4.1.1-r12 claiming an unreconized option `-Qy`  ?
02:34.16dotmefnot me so far
02:34.35dotmefstruggling with a gtk+-directfb issue at the mo
02:36.08Ocibuthats further along than me
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02:43.55dotmefOcibu: what architecture are you building on?
02:46.25OcibuThe build host is a i386 (feisty generic kernel)
02:47.30OcibuI have tried it with a couple 'pristine' installs using  a virtual machine and get the same results
02:48.10dotmefI don't really know much about this, but the only place I've found -Qy so far is in the GCC options
02:48.48dotmefin "Options for System V"
02:49.04OcibuYea, that is what I think but it seems to be getting passed to the assembler
02:50.26dotmefcan you find the configure options for gcc-cross and see if it's mis-recognised your system as SVR4 or seomthing?
02:50.48dotmefeither that or it's a typo and meant to be just "-Q"
02:51.09Ocibuthe gcc-cross is pulled down with openembedded, right?
02:51.17dotmefyep
02:52.41OcibuI'll start looking there, the openembedded process is a HUGE ball of wax and I am still a bit intimidated by it
02:52.56dotmefyou and me both
02:53.15OcibuYea! I'm not alone...
02:53.24dotmef:-D
02:54.07dotmefI'm digging through the build/tmp/work/armv4t-linux/gcc-cross directory now
02:54.21dotmefto see if there's anything that might help
02:54.48dotmefI'm using FC6 on x86_64, so it's a bit of a different system
02:55.37aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[WiFi_support_in_OpenMoko]]
02:55.57OcibuYea, but that is what impresses me about openembedded. It tries to makes cross-compilling the entire system work for just about anything
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02:58.51dotmefyup - I really hope I get a handle on it. It's seem extraordinarily powerful
02:59.11dotmefreminds me of Gentoo in the way that it compiles an entire system from scratch
03:00.06OcibuYea but do it twice: once for the host and once for the target
03:00.11dotmefOcibu: what shell do you use? bash?
03:00.16Ocibuyup
03:01.04dotmefhmm. why on Earth would it use an SVR4 option..? weird
03:02.10OcibuI stated another build with a generic .bashrc (my default one has lots in it) a couple hours ago.
03:02.26OcibuI shoud get to the point where it dies soon.
03:02.32dotmefOcibu: good plan
03:03.20OcibuHeh, it just started gcc-cross-4.1.1-r12
03:04.33dotmeffingers crossed
03:07.22dotmefOcibu: are you using the OpenMokoMake?
03:07.36OcibuYes, that is how I invoke things
03:07.49OcibuI have tried using bb from scratch and get the same error
03:08.01OcibuToo bad it takes so long to do a test
03:08.14dotmefyeah
03:09.16dotmefhave you had any trouble getting updates for the OpenMokoMake? I've been having issues today.
03:10.30OcibuI did a make update-makefile earlier and didn't get any errors
03:10.37OcibuI didn't get any updates either
03:11.12dotmefI've been getting time-outs pulling stuff from svn.nslu2-linux.org
03:11.49dotmefhave you had a look at the config.status files generated for the gcc-cross builds?
03:12.25Ocibuno. is that in the build/tmp dir?
03:13.05dotmefyeah - build/tmp/work/
03:13.17Ocibulooking
03:13.35dotmefactually, it'll be interesting to see where gcc-cross is getting built
03:17.19rwhitby.
03:18.53OcibuIts getting built in the work/arm4t-linux dir
03:19.11dotmefseems normal
03:19.29OcibuThe config is there but it will take a while to see if anything looks amiss
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03:20.57OcibuI think it worked!
03:21.25CIA-16openmoko: 03rwhitby * r58 10mokomakefile/trunk/patches/openmoko-HEAD/ (gtk-provider.patch series): Added patch for PREFERRED_PROVIDER_gdk-* problem
03:21.34dotmefthe other build?
03:21.36rwhitbydotmef: try that for the gtk+-directfb problem.
03:22.12rwhitbyOcibu: never seen your problem before.
03:22.24OcibuYup. I think something in my .bashrc has messed up my environment so that the bitbake dies
03:22.47dotmefrwhitby: I'm a bit of a n00b. can I get that through an OpenMokoMake update or will I have to manually patch?
03:22.54Ociburwhitby: Thanks. Just knowing its not a common problem with an obvious answer helps
03:23.00rwhitbydotmef: make update will get it for you.
03:23.06OcibuI'm feeling a little stupid right now
03:23.35dotmefrwhitby: Ta
03:25.00dotmefOcibu: dude! you found something that someone else could run into
03:25.14dotmefand fixed it yourself
03:25.23dotmefnothing stupid about that
03:25.26OcibuAs soon as I get it isolated I will certainly add it to the wiki
03:27.14aevinOcibu: as you may see there's also a workaround mentioned on the MokoMakefile discussion page.
03:27.51Ocibuaevin: I hadn't see that, Im looking now
03:28.10aevinOcibu: (but not for your problem, i mean)
03:28.24aevini was thinking of it could be smart to collect them in one place.
03:29.01Ocibuah, I was wondering if I was missing something.
03:29.31Ocibuyes, I'll stick it on the bottom of that page; when I know something more specific.
03:29.44aevini don't know what's better; either on discussion page (where people might not find it) or perhaps make a Troubleshooting or Workaround section below the Tips, or something...
03:30.29dotmefaevin: is there a pointer to the discussion page in the Tips?
03:30.53aevindotmef: no. but i think that would be a good idea.
03:31.12OcibuSo where is the /discussion/ page, I have just been looking at the main page
03:31.16aevinand then put all workarounds in the discussion, where they can be discussed...
03:31.38Ocibunever mind.
03:31.44aevinOcibu: at the top of each wiki page there is a tab pane: article , discussion ... etc
03:31.58Ocibuthanks, I see it now.
03:32.16OcibuI have been living in tWiki 90% of the time and didn't see thte tab
03:32.35Ocibugotta love all the different wikis...
03:32.37dotmefaevin: right - I guess the best or most frequent/persistent ones can be put into the main page for easy access
03:33.00dotmefOcibu: yep - first time I've seen it too
03:33.16dotmefI guess I see those tabs as Wiki administration things
03:35.16rwhitbyI added a link in the main page to make that more obvious.
03:35.57Ociburwhitby: Doh, I was just doing that. Thanks. I'll throw my chage away
03:36.13rwhitbydotmef: my build just completed.
03:37.40OcibuNow maybe I can get on with getting the agps daemon going.
03:37.46OcibuAnyone have any tips there?
03:38.06rwhitbyOcibu: you have P0 hardware?
03:38.16dotmefrwhitby: cool.
03:38.57OcibuYup
03:40.09OcibuMy focus is getting the proprietary gps stack opened up
03:40.28rwhitbyAre you aware of the current status?
03:40.32OcibuI'm a gps nerd in my day job.
03:41.15OcibuThe status of the GlobalLocate daemon?
03:41.16OcibuNo
03:41.22[g2]Obitus_ what qualifies as a gps nerd ?
03:41.46OcibuIt being my professional focus for 12+ years?
03:42.30[g2]neat do you build stuff like this ? http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8238
03:44.10OcibuNo, my focus is more on the control segment support. That means dual frequency.
03:44.47OcibuBut yes, that is a cool toy. I am working on a device similiar to that in concept except for wideband
03:44.48rwhitbyOcibu: last I heard OM was still waiting for the daemon from the vendor.  And last I saw here, people were trying to talk to the chip via serial but couldn't get a response from it.
03:45.04Ocibugroan
03:45.15Ociburwhibty: thanks for the update.
03:45.45rwhitbyperhaps you can be the first :-)
03:45.47aevinit's cool to know we have gps pros on the project :)
03:45.49Ociburwhitby: is there any way for me to get updates on the status of that part of the phone
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03:46.24rwhitbyOcibu: I'd saying talking to LaF0rge and mickey|working here is the best info you'll get publicly.
03:47.27OcibuThere are several of us at work who are hoping to contribute to this effort. There are lots of neat things that can be done with GPS...
03:47.32aevinspeaking of the MokoMakefile wiki page, the "Bugs" sections at the top should be removed now, right?
03:47.46rwhitbyaevin: it should be gone
03:48.10aevini can do it.
03:48.19aevinah
03:48.21SpeedEvildistributed DGPS could be very interesting.
03:48.29aevini had a cached site.
03:49.02aevinhi SpeeDevil !
03:49.21SpeedEvilUpload from charging static neos their relative delays to satelites. Compute from that to an ionosphere/satelltite clock mode.
03:49.22SpeedEvill
03:49.25SpeedEvil:)
03:50.01OcibuYea, but the IGS has servers that are of much better quality and the data is available...
03:50.14SpeedEvilIsn't it US only?
03:50.14aevinhow accurate is the time resolution resolved with GPS?
03:50.23SpeedEvilIt depends what you mean.
03:50.23OcibuIGS, no, it is worldwide
03:50.47aevinOcibu: do you know what that service costs?
03:50.49SpeedEvilIt measures the time to within hundreds of picoseconds skew between satellites.
03:51.02OcibuMost of the data is free.
03:51.19aevinokay.
03:51.26OcibuThe products are often what the groups want to charge for
03:51.51Ocibuproducts being the things that are computed from they raw gps observations.
03:53.04SpeedEvilHow variable is the ionosphere - IOW, how fresh do you need a correction to be to be of optimal use, and when does it become useless.
03:53.06OcibuSpeedEvil: Heh, someone who knows just how difficult a question as to time accuracy is
03:53.12rwhitbyOcibu: is gpstk something which we should get into OpenEmbedded so it can be used on the Neo?
03:53.18OcibuNot yet.
03:53.41OcibuMuch of that is for precise positioning. Not simple nav solutions.
03:53.57SpeedEvilWell...
03:54.06SpeedEvilThe stock GPS gets 2m.
03:54.39OcibuI would want to hand pick the parts that would be usefull and make a separate package.
03:54.39SpeedEvilIt would be rather nice on occasion to be able to click a 'get precise fix' button, and it gets the current state of the ionosphere/... and figures it out to within 10-20cm
03:54.53rwhitbyOcibu: not even for the library functions, like time conversions?
03:55.22rwhitbyOcibu: ah, cool.  Are you familiar with OpenEmbedded - there are a number of packages which get split up into useful chunks ...
03:55.32Ocibu10-20 cm with a single frequency device is not really achieavable.
03:55.37aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[MokoMakefile]]
03:55.44SpeedEvilWell - I assume better than 2m is.
03:55.50OcibuEven with differential
03:56.43OcibuTo get a reliable 2m you still need dual frequency or some form of DGPS to get better iono/orbit corrections
03:57.03SpeedEvilyeah - I was talking about the spec sheet - which says 2m.
03:57.08SpeedEvilI have doubts.
03:57.39SpeedEvilHow fresh does iono correction need to be?
03:57.42OcibuHeh, the spec that the air force drives the satellites to is only 15 m dual frequency
03:57.56OcibuBut they regularly do in the 2 m range
03:58.47OcibuThere are some really, really smart people spending their lifes squeezing every last bit of accuracy out of the GPS system
03:59.30OcibuIts one of the few really nice things that the US military has done for the world
03:59.37SpeedEvilI wasn't meaning 10-20cm as a specific number - just better than what it'll get for the rest.
04:00.20SpeedEvilI haven't been able to find what a good GLONASS reciever can do. Now that the more high resolution version has been opened and more birds launched.
04:02.22OcibuIf you want to spend $10-20k (US) you can get a survey grade box that will do GLONASS+GPS and give you a static position that is well under a meter.
04:02.50OcibuYou can get it in the 10-20 cm in post processing with a precise orbit
04:02.51SpeedEvilIs that using the declassified code though.
04:02.54OcibuYes
04:03.31OcibuThe US turned off all the selective availability back in 2001
04:03.36SpeedEvilErr - no.
04:03.53OcibuThey still encrypt the P code, however
04:04.05OcibuThat is called AS, not SA, however
04:04.08SpeedEvilGLONASS made available for civilian use the more precise code that I forget the name of in January
04:04.38SpeedEvilOr at least they announced they had.
04:04.55rwhitbygpstk passed configure fine in OE, let's see if it cross-compiles ...
04:05.15OcibuThe survey grade receivers would even do this with the classified codes. They use a tracking techniques often referred to as 'codeless'
04:05.35OcibuIt allows them to track a PRN bitstream without knowing the actuall PRN
04:05.53SpeedEvilWacky.
04:06.02OcibuDamn smart.
04:06.09SpeedEvilI came up with a silly method for using P code that way.
04:06.18SpeedEvilIt wasn't very portable though.
04:06.29SpeedEvilAs it needed a 35m dish or so.
04:06.32OcibuJust shows how hard it is to really protect information that needs to be widely disseminated
04:06.36Ocibuheh
04:07.01*** part/#openmoko Rodekil (n=rodekil@adsl-76-209-60-191.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net)
04:07.05OcibuSpeedEvil: You an RF or comm type?
04:07.12SpeedEvilUmm...
04:07.17rwhitbyOcibu: what would be a one-line description of gpstk?
04:07.23SpeedEvilI'm a 'play with everything' type.
04:08.31SpeedEvilOcibu: would you know anyone able to comment on opensource GPS legalities? http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hardware:AGPS#Q:_Is_an_open-source_GPS_daemon_able_to_be_distributed_by_FIC.3F
04:08.42Ociburwhitby: Open source libraries and applications to facilitate working with GPS data for research and high accuracy uses.
04:08.44SpeedEvilWhich isn't yet relevant.
04:09.00SpeedEvilBut could be.
04:09.41OcibuI have disccussed this with several people at work who have to deal with the ITAR; the US laws that cause the problems
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04:10.21SpeedEvilITAR is such a bundle of fun...
04:10.32SpeedEvilFortunately I haven't had to touch it.
04:10.37OcibuWe believe that we can write code based upon publicly available data, make the source available and meet the regulations
04:10.54SpeedEvilAs I read it, source is one thing.
04:11.05SpeedEvilA complete GPS reciever with that source may be something quite different.
04:11.20rwhitbyOcibu: LGPL - nice :-)
04:11.35OcibuThis is important to me because I would rather not loose my job over this
04:11.55Ociburwhitby: we like to play nice
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04:12.14rwhitbyOcibu: I expect that's quite important for commercial collaboration and such.
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04:13.30rwhitbyOcibu: gpstk seems to be compiling fine under OpenEmbedded.  Is there a categorisation of it into smaller packages which would be useful to you?
04:14.01Ociburwhitby: Actually, my lab is not allowed to collaborate with commercial ventures.
04:14.24rwhitbyOcibu: why is that (if you don't mind me asking publicly) ?
04:14.30OcibuIf the src dir compiles, that would be a good starting point.
04:15.01rwhitbyOcibu: it's up to WxObsMap
04:15.18Ociburwhitby: We fall under a piece of legislation that requires us to do this so we can be a 'trusted advisor' to the US Government.
04:15.51OcibuYea!
04:15.51rwhitbythat seems to make good sense.
04:16.31rwhitbyOcibu: it should be built well before your MokoMakefile build finishes :-)
04:16.40Ocibugroan....
04:17.07OcibuI want it so I can look up maps when I am on long bike rides.
04:17.16OcibuI am a roadie and like to explore
04:17.32SpeedEvilThere is unfortunately no nice map solution.
04:17.41SpeedEvilgoogle-maps may work if you have flat-rate GPRS
04:17.53SpeedEvilor openstreetmap if you've mapped the area :)
04:17.57rwhitbyOcibu: src finished, onto apps now
04:17.58OcibuThat is what I figured would be a good start
04:18.29rwhitbyOcibu: will this lib give us an easy way to get precise time from the GPS stream?
04:18.39Ociburwhitby: excelent. if you see any build errors, pop me an email
04:18.41LWT001openmoko-libs-0.0.1+svnnow      openmoko-libs-0.0.1+svnnow       task do_configure: failed  
04:18.50Ociburwhitby: yes, it will
04:19.12OcibuWe should be able to get that to better than 10-3 away from UTC
04:19.16rwhitbyLWT001: full pastebin of the output of following http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile#Reporting_Problems please.
04:19.57OcibuMy email is on the openmoko wiki for ocibu
04:20.28SpeedEvilUmm - precise time depends on the gpsd plugin.
04:20.35SpeedEvilif it screws that up, ...
04:21.29rwhitbyOcibu: would you like me to check this gpstk recipe into OpenEmbedded?  then when your MokoMakefile build is finished you will be able to "bitbake gpstk" and ipkg install it.
04:22.05OcibuI would expect we will just send NMEA strings to the gpsd for a starting point. A custom daemon would be better, however
04:22.23SpeedEvilthere are no NMEA strings
04:22.28Ociburwhitby: Yes, that would be wonderful
04:22.44SpeedEvilthe hardware is a dumb correlator that you talk a custom unreleased serial protocol to.
04:22.50SpeedEvildumbish.
04:23.06SpeedEvilthe gpsd plugin then cooks this into a format that gpsd understands.
04:23.19OcibuThat is the point of what I want to do, get the position from the raw correlation delays
04:23.48SpeedEvilFirst - reverse engineer the plugin :(
04:24.08SpeedEvilUnless it releases the correlation delays.
04:24.57OcibuExactly what I want to do.
04:25.27rwhitbythat's why *I'm* making sure Ocibu has everything he needs to get started :-)
04:25.28OcibuStart with figuring out what the Hammerhead needs, get it tracking, and figurre out what it outputs
04:25.44SpeedEvilAh - I was going to have a stab at that.
04:25.49SpeedEvilbe nice to have someone with more clue.
04:26.23SpeedEvilIt'd be lovely if the hardware could be kicked with an initial doppler, and get an even faster than spec lock. (it specs a 5m position after 1s).
04:26.32SpeedEvil(for power saving)
04:27.10OcibuIf you do, let me know what you find. I will likely start a wiki page when get the agpsd going.
04:27.34rwhitbyOcibu: I've just done the stable release.  Is that fine for initial work, or will you need to track SVN?
04:27.34SpeedEvilWell, it's all kind of contingent on hardware :)
04:27.35OcibuActually, time is more important than doppler.
04:28.00OcibuStable release will be good for now.
04:28.35SpeedEvilYou mean if you know which 1/50th of a second you are in it helps you determine where in the bitstream you are faster?
04:28.39OcibuThe routines we need for this are quite mature; I hope they won't be chaning a lot
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04:29.19OcibuActually, getting sub ms into the device is when you can really crank
04:29.37OcibuThe 1/50 doesn't help that much for a C/A acquisition
04:30.02OcibuI am assuming that you have a current ephemeris, however
04:30.09SpeedEvilYeah.
04:30.14Ocibu--not just the almanac
04:30.31SpeedEvilNot usually much of a hastle - especially as you may be able to get a good signal while charging.
04:30.40OcibuHopefully
04:30.44SpeedEvilAs the GPS is allegedly quite sensitive.
04:30.59rwhitby[http://gpstk.sourceforge.net/papers/ion-gnss-2004/ION-GNSS-2004-paper.pdf <- Introduction to gpstk, Ocibu is one of the authors]
04:31.06OcibuThe gpstk has all the routines for parsing the ephemeris data as it is stored in the IGS archives
04:31.17SpeedEvildon't remember the number - it's 10db more than my GPS-12 though.
04:31.39OcibuThat is needed for the E911 to work indoors
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04:32.14OcibuWe have a newer paper that also talks about some of the apps that we presented at the ION last fall
04:32.36SpeedEvilAIUI there is no GSM standard for E911 though.
04:32.59rwhitbyhttp://www.gpstk.org/pub/Documentation/GPSTkPublications/gpstk-ion-gnss-2005.pdf ?
04:34.12OcibuI hope that the GSM standards get something there. I would hate to have this phone not support E911 just because the carriers all used a private protocol
04:34.39SpeedEvilI believe that the carriers all just use triangulation.
04:34.45SpeedEvilwhich is generally pretty accurate.
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04:34.53SpeedEvilI may be wrong.
04:35.14OcibuSome of the newer handsets do use GPS. I just got a new LG that does
04:35.52SpeedEvilThe byzantine world of the networks is wierd though. Who knows if it's a generic protocol or a custom-rolled one.
04:35.56OcibuThey make you pay $20 / month just to use the gps on your phone for anything else
04:36.22Ocibuthat is another reason for this effort
04:36.35SpeedEvilIndeed - locked down hardware is insane.
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04:39.16rwhitbyOcibu: apps/multipath/Makefile didn't get created by configure ...
04:40.43Ociburwhitby: We use Jam for the standard build tool. There is a guy in spain that contributes the makefiles so I don't stay up-to-date on the status of that.
04:41.12rwhitbyok, Jam isn't packaged for OE, so I'll just fix the configure.ac script.
04:41.18OcibuTell it not to build that?
04:41.37rwhitbyit's a one line fix in top-level configure.ac so far ...
04:41.41OcibuI will still try to get it fixed in subversion
04:43.01OcibuMany of the apps in there are for scientific analysis of gps data and won't be of interest to 99% of even the openmoko developers
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04:44.34rwhitbyok, build continues ...
04:44.43OcibuMy build is up to the kernel!!!
04:45.41rwhitbyOcibu: here's the patch (against the 1.2 stable release): http://pastebin.ca/408858
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04:46.17rwhitby(the patch will be in OE, and will be automatically applied to the stable release before building)
04:47.32Ociburwhitby: You are fast. Thanks 1e6
04:48.50rwhitbyOcibu: if there's one thing I've learnt in my 40 years on this planet, it's to make life easy for the people who know magnitudes more than you in subject areas in which you're interested :-)
04:48.59OcibuWhat would be a good way to contact LaF0rge and/or mickey
04:49.23[g2]40 years -- You geezer !
04:49.24rwhitbymickey is usually here in EU hours.
04:49.31rwhitby[g2]: heh - you can't talk!
04:49.46[g2]what do you mean old man
04:49.54OcibuI just hope I can do something good with this.
04:50.11rwhitby[g2]: I thought you're kids were almost as old as me ...
04:50.19rwhitbys/you're/your/
04:50.27[g2]that's grand kids :)
04:51.03[g2]it's ashame the Fortran guy died
04:51.18[g2]this year is the 50th anniverary
04:51.26rwhitbyOcibu: I'd suggest you announce your presence on the oe-devel mailing list - Harald and Mickey definitely read that.
04:51.39[g2]well night all
04:51.56rwhitby(I'm sure they would be very keen to talk with you)
04:52.01rwhitbynight [g2]
04:52.16rwhitbyNOTE: package gpstk-1.2-r0: task do_compile: completed
04:53.06Ociburwhitby: Once again, thanks
04:55.38aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:MokoMakefile]] [[Hardware:AGPS]]
04:57.53rwhitbyHmm - no "install" target ...
05:00.29rwhitbyOcibu: it compiles - I
05:00.53rwhitbywill add packaging later.  I'll check in what's there so you can at least compile it with OE.
05:02.16rwhitby<CIA-11> rwhitby org.oe.dev * r921c450e... / (5 files in 4 dirs): gpstk: Open source libraries and applications to facilitate working with GPS data for research and high accuracy uses.
05:02.23Ociburwhitby: I just sent out a quick query on the devel list. Maybe they can get me a pre-release (but I won't hole my breath)
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05:03.54rwhitbyOcibu: heh - you're too modest - you should have mentioned your backround :-)
05:04.09rwhitbyI'm sure mickey|working will read it here anyway.
05:06.24OcibuWell, I gotta get some sleep. Thanks for the help/support/chatting. I'll try to stay on here while I am working this.
05:06.36SpeedEvilGoodnight!
05:06.42rwhitbyOcibu: welcome aboard!  Great to have your experience here.
05:07.20rwhitby(I'll look at the Makefile.am files to add install targets so gpstk creates packages for installation)
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05:23.21rwhitbyOcibu: should any of the libraries from apps be installed?
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06:10.37dotmef|awayrwhitby: build completed - thanks again.
06:12.16dotmefrwhitby: btw - I see an error with the build trying to access files in oa/packages. is this normal?
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06:26.32technomaniacHi, I am writing up an application for openMoko SOC.
06:27.30technomaniacCan anyone tell me if there are any specifics I must address.
06:27.45technomaniacI am making an app for Ad-hoc bluetooth communication
06:30.09technomaniachello...
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06:34.38technomaniacwhat is the status of development on bluetooth in openMoko til  now
06:39.04rwhitbydotmef: oa/packages?
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06:40.09technomaniaccan nebody hear me ?
06:40.10aloriltechnomaniac: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
06:43.34technomaniacHas Bluetooth-alsa been ported to openMoko
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06:51.25dotmefrwhitby: yep - here's the output in question http://pastebin.ca/408912
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07:00.09technomaniacWhat is the status of Bluetooth ALSA ... on openMoko
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07:35.21rwhitbydotmef: you don't have a typo in one of your config files do you?  (local.conf, setup-env)?
07:37.44rwhitbytechnomaniac: http://buildhost.openmoko.org/tmp/deploy/ipk/armv4t/bluez-utils_3.9-r2_armv4t.ipk and http://buildhost.openmoko.org/tmp/deploy/ipk/armv4t/alsa-*.ipk are the current state.  Dunno what functionality that gives.
07:40.56koen_rwhitby: thanks for adding gpstk, I had some problem with 'make install' not working
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07:45.27rwhitbykoen: yeah, the base package does not have install targets in the Makefile.am's.
07:46.16rwhitbyand when I added some, it no longer compiled for some reason.  Need to go back and look at it.  Compilation is enough for the Ocibu who wants to use it (he's part of the team that wrote it)
07:49.04koenOcibu: the -Qy problem is known, but we haven't been able to figure out what triggers it (i.e. unable to reproduce locally)
07:55.38aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:Openmarko]]
07:57.27rwhitbyyep, compilation fails from that single change in the Makefile.am
07:57.30dotmefrwhitby: looks like a typo in openmoko/trunk/oe/conf/site.conf
07:57.50dotmef:q
07:58.42rwhitbydotmef: interesting - looks like that's intentional - OM core devs must have an 'oa' symlink linking to something else that we haven't seen yet ...
07:58.52rwhitbyBBFILES := "${OMDIR}/openembedded/packages/*/*.bb ${OMDIR}/oa/packages/*/*.bb ${OMDIR}/oe/package\
07:58.52rwhitbys/*/*.bb"
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07:59.30dotmefOpenAppliance?
07:59.44koenopenalchemy?
07:59.49rwhitbyOpenAccess (old PalmOS?)  OpenAngstrom?
08:00.09dotmefOpenAllHours?
08:00.11rwhitbykoen: know of any other package repos forked from OpenEmbedded?
08:00.37koenrwhitby: harald is involved with http://openalchemy.org/index.php/Main_Page
08:00.39dotmefrwhitby: I know to ignore it now - ta
08:01.05dotmefahh. that makes sense then
08:01.05koenrwhitby: http://openalchemy.org/pipermail/openalchemy-general/2007-March/000009.html
08:01.32rwhitbythat explains it then.
08:01.43dotmefone to add to the Wiki?
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08:05.31MandarinoHi everyone :)
08:05.32Mandarinocounter
08:05.33alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, 5 days 03:54:27 (12.163 +-7.0 days) (621)
08:07.21rwhitbysomeone with better autofoo than I will need to look at this gpstk problem.
08:08.00koenrwhitby: iirc someone promised to send a request to the gpstk list to fix the install targets
08:08.57koenrwhitby: http://purl.rikers.org/%23openmoko/20070110.html.gz
08:09.14koen~seen pben
08:09.51aptpben <n=pben@nat-205-223.arlut.utexas.edu> was last seen on IRC in channel #openmoko, 73d 11h 50m 37s ago, saying: 'koen: I can't reproduce your problem with gpstk's make system. problem with my system. i'll post a question to the developer list to see if anyone has actually installed using make and not with jam'.
08:10.53rwhitbykoen: ah, you've been through all this before I see.
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08:11.18koenyes
08:11.38koenI didn't check in gpstk since make install didn't work
08:12.12rwhitbyshould I remove it?
08:12.23koennah
08:12.38koenlet's see if we can fix is with some cp, grep and awk :)
08:12.46rwhitbyheh
08:12.52rwhitbyback later ...
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09:21.42koenrwhitby: do_install is a bit better now
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10:23.34Hopscotchgood morning
10:25.48PBeckhi
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10:47.32alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, 5 days 01:12:27 (12.050 +-7.0 days) (622)
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10:54.58aloril2evanm89mob: in 5 days counter will start to reduce uncerainty (and counter will also move in half speed)
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11:46.41amayerahi
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11:59.47amayerawill the mass market price of the Neo be lower than the developer price?
11:59.47alorilamayera: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
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12:29.20Hopscotchwhile(1) counter;
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12:33.48ElrondHopscotch - while(1) sleep(10), counter;
12:35.37Hopscotchah, with power-management now?
12:36.53ElrondYep. ;)
12:37.21Elrond10 seconds should be enough to recharge ;)
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12:58.00dhoHas there been any interest expressed in porting other OSes to the Neo1973?
12:58.01alorildho: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
12:59.01balrog-kundho: what OSes?
12:59.17balrog-kunknowing NetBSD folks they are probably working on it
12:59.20guaquanetbsd probably could be doable
12:59.20vmasterbalrog-kun: WinCE ;)
12:59.28balrog-kunconsidering that Neo1972 is not a toaster
12:59.36balrog-kun*1973
12:59.37dhoI was personally thinking Plan 9/Inferno
13:00.09Elixir-Just as long as its binary compatible with the GSM modules ;)
13:00.09balrog-kunand from NetBSD support immediately gets ported to OpenBSD
13:00.38dhoOh, ok. I guess not then. I was under the impression that was done via serial only.
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13:01.23SpeedEvilIt is.
13:01.27SpeedEvilGPS is binary
13:01.37dhoAh
13:02.00dhoAre there details of the ABI or just ``Linux glibc xyz''\
13:02.58mjrhmm, did it switch yet to EABI?
13:03.16SpeedEvilIt's not been stated.
13:03.27dho(Not that Plan 9 would be compatible with it anyway)
13:03.42buzactually since gps is userspace and the BSDs have linux userspace emulation gps might work, too
13:03.44SpeedEvilIt is just 'the GPS will be enabled by a binary plugin to GPSd" with no more details.
13:04.05buzheck i have run binary java on FreeBSD
13:04.27buzif that works, a small GPSd probably does so, too
13:05.11SpeedEvilprolly.
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13:05.26dhoDepends on the syscalls it uses.
13:05.32balrog-kungpsd should be rather portable,
13:05.36SpeedEvilIIRC it just talks over a serial port.
13:05.37balrog-kunit's a userspace code
13:06.00SpeedEvilplugin to gpsd - not gpsd...
13:06.03SpeedEvilgpsd is portable
13:06.11buzi think someone even ran oracle linux on freebsd
13:06.19buzjust to prove it's possibl
13:06.19buze
13:06.22balrog-kunthe plugin to gpsd works in userspace as well
13:06.41buzmake world on neo, muahahaha
13:06.47balrog-kunthe OS should make no difference
13:06.53dhoWell, it does :)
13:07.12dhoPlan 9 will never be binary compatible. Its stack doesn't even go in the same direction ;)
13:07.21buzi say gpsd would run on the bsds
13:07.28dhoI'm sure it would
13:07.31balrog-kunthere's no need for any binary compatibility
13:07.44buzprobably not
13:07.50buztho it depends just how the plugin works
13:07.54balrog-kungpsd is supposed to manage the loading of the binary plugin and calling it
13:08.12dho(Plan 9 doesn't have an rtld either)
13:08.14dho:)
13:08.46balrog-kunthe same plugin is used on all system that use this gpd chip
13:08.48dhoInferno does though. Anyway, the GPS is a small portion of functionality of the phone.
13:08.51balrog-kun*systems
13:09.21balrog-kun*gps
13:09.47dhoBut the general concensus is that based on specifications and what's currently running, it should be possible?
13:10.01SpeedEvilSure.
13:10.07dhoSounds fun.
13:10.22SpeedEvilThere are completely open hardware specs - well - documented in the code.
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13:10.33SpeedEvilso it's simply a matter of porting.
13:11.18balrog-kunthe bootloader also does a significant part of hardware setup, so you get this free
13:11.23dhoRight
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13:12.53dhoWell. My 8125 broke so I may as well get one of these and play around with it.
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13:13.57buzyou should een be able to boot from an sd card
13:14.08buzso you can actually keep the installed stack for general use
13:14.25dhoHm, does it virtualize that at all? I'd probably have to prot the SD stack too.
13:14.25buz~/een/even/
13:14.41dhos,prot,port,
13:14.44buzdho: the bootloader itself treats it as mmc card i think
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13:15.24buzas for the os itself, you will have to port an SD stack i guess
13:15.50balrog-kunopenbsd understands SD
13:15.53dhoYeah, I can figure out details of what needs what later, I suppose.
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13:16.02dhoFreeBSD too, so it shouldn't be too big a problem
13:16.03balrog-kunNetBSD does too
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13:16.09buzmoko/openbsd
13:16.12buzfor the truly paranoid
13:16.29dhoI was mostly just wondering if there had been explicit express interest
13:16.40buzi think youre the first to ask
13:16.41SpeedEvilIIRC you're the first.
13:16.53guaquafingerprint, retina scanning and a password to unlock, and the flash is off course encrypted
13:16.53SpeedEvilAt least you seem saner than the iSCSI over GPRS guy.
13:16.56buzbut i had wondered when people would start with that ;-)
13:17.17guaquaiscsi over gprs :D
13:17.51buzwell they dont have hardware
13:18.00buzbut yeah they might have ;)
13:18.04balrog-kuntrue..
13:18.16buzwouldnt put it beyond them to release a distro before the hw even ships
13:18.31dhoI would
13:18.37dhoThey're largely busy with other stuff right now
13:18.43dhoEspecially since 4.x is late
13:18.52buzpersonally i want to see kde ;)
13:19.49buzis there kde in openembedded?
13:19.57balrog-kunthere's OPIE
13:20.11buzthats like Qt 2 based right?
13:20.29balrog-kuni'm not sure
13:20.37dhoOh yeah
13:20.40buzthen again, to kde neo should mostly be a somewhat limited pc
13:20.42dhodoes the S3C2410 have an MMU?
13:20.48balrog-kundho: yes
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13:20.49dhook
13:20.56balrog-kunotherwise they wouldn't use Linux on it :p
13:21.00dhoucLinux
13:21.23dhocan run MMU-less
13:21.26balrog-kuni doubt they would go with uclinux then
13:21.34dhoYeah, was just making sure.
13:21.49dhoThough I guess Inferno can run MMUless
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13:24.58Elrondkde on the neo wouldn't be fun.
13:25.13guaquaopie doesn't look good at all
13:26.30buzElrond: about the same as gnome ;)
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13:27.00buzwhich is to say largely not very useful without a keyboard
13:27.09buzthen again, amarok...
13:27.17dhoAnyway, it might be a fun SoC project for someone too, and I'd be glad to mentor that over in that camp.
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13:28.10buzi've seen kde run (maybe walk is better) on p-100
13:28.14buzso its not that out of touch
13:28.41buzthe neo packs about as much punch as the pcs we had 10 years ago
13:28.46buzand double the ram
13:28.46ElrondIs inferno used anywhere notable?
13:29.04Elrondbuz - Yeah. :)
13:29.06dhoElrond: various government and academia projects, I don't know details.
13:29.28threshkde2 should be almost good on p-100 with reasonable amount of ram
13:29.29dhoboth at this point are really for research for general purposes.
13:30.00Elronddho - So it's more a research os then a real useful thing?
13:30.17dhoDepends on what you're defining as useful
13:30.38dhoFor most people, probably not.
13:31.08dho(Of course, most of the Plan 9 / Inferno nuts would probably go berzerk trying to tell you how much better it is than whatever you're using)
13:31.19buzi keep thinking that my pentium m 1.6ghz kde laptop is slow ;)
13:31.20balrog-kunthe believe that older software is more suitable for older hardware is often wrong
13:31.38balrog-kuni'm pretty sure current kde would run better than kde2
13:31.39buzbalrog-kun: true enough, kde got faster with every release in 3.X
13:31.56dhoIt has a lot of good ideas that could make it better for practical purposes, but right now, it's not really useful for most people, and the learning curve is probably steeper than learning any give UNIX or UNIX-like OS
13:32.01buzand kde4 will make another leap
13:32.29buzsome benchmarks i've seen put qt4 apps at about 20% faster while using 20% less ram
13:32.34Elrondbuz - But kde tends to get larger, no?
13:32.48dhoThey at least try to compartmentalize it
13:32.51ElrondOhh, less ram. I'm surprised!
13:32.55dhoNot as much as the gnome people, I guess.
13:32.58buz(same goes for osx, btw, it's just MS land where each subsequent release needs more of everything)
13:33.23balrog-kunsame goes with MS sometimes, too, take the windows 2003
13:33.34buznever used that
13:33.46buzbut it might be the one exception in the whole family
13:33.58Elrondbalrog-kun - Is 2003 better then 2000? Really? It just feels better thought out, but really better to resources?!
13:34.05balrog-kunit was extremely stable and a lot faster than windows xp, also required less ram
13:34.28ElrondWell, xp is "for the dumb users at home/desktop" ;)
13:34.41balrog-kunand it supported both windows 2000 and windows xp drivers, themes etc
13:34.42Elrond... those want to buy new hardware every half year. ;o)
13:35.06dhoEr, didn't mean to start a UI/OS flame war in case it goes in that direction, heh
13:35.19buzseems quite civilized so far
13:35.22Elronddho - Don't yet see the flamewar :)
13:35.42buzits rare but you actually CAN discuss os objectively ;)
13:35.44dhoI'm pre-empting it ;)
13:36.03Elronddho - Okay. ;)
13:36.17ElrondSo what's about hurd? ;o))
13:36.21buzin that case you cant discuss Win9X objectively
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13:41.13balrog-kunhurd has no arm support whatsoever at the moment :p
13:41.40ElrondShouldn't be too hard?
13:41.56balrog-kuni don't know, but that's more work than for linux or BSD
13:42.23dhoARM's not that difficult at all
13:42.23dhobut
13:42.31dhoIt's always really application specific
13:43.37balrog-kunporting an os to a whole new architecture is hard i think, even if it's a relatively simple arch
13:43.43balrog-kunall the caches stuff
13:44.12ElrondHmm, yeah.
13:44.21balrog-kunyou see even the ARM Inc. people on linux-arm-kernel mailing list sometimes get lost in this
13:44.44dho(there are 5,000,000,000,000,000 different ARM processors in 50 times as many applications)
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14:26.39Prayaghi people
14:27.29Prayagany GoSoC mentor here :)
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14:30.31KablamoIs there anyway for a non-programmer to help in the OpenMoko Project?
14:30.32alorilKablamo: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
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14:51.04aloril2SpeedEvil: I think mickey mentionet that they hope to move to EABI between P1 and P2
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14:55.38aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wishlist:Bootable_USB_device_emulation]] [[Summer_of_code]]
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15:02.29rbs-titoIf it was a bootable device it would be handy. You could implement a good few features that way without having to worry about cross-OS support.
15:05.24MortenLysgaardBootable like when booting you're pc from a usb pendrive?
15:05.41mjrthat shouldn't be exactly difficult assuming usb block device support
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15:13.34rbs-titoMortenLysgaard: Yup
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15:23.23quickdevIs it possible to develop openmoko applications with an emulator?
15:23.48MortenLysgaardYeah, I think so, 2 sec.
15:25.31MortenLysgaardThink this says it: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_Is_there_an_emulator_available_for_OpenMoko.3F gotta love wiki =)
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15:26.37quickdevMortenLysgaard: I just read it, thanks. So I would be able to see the openmoko ui, too?
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15:27.25MortenLysgaardI don't think i'm the right person to ask, sorry, I'm just a student who got to hear of this project
15:28.36MortenLysgaardBut, of general knowledge i can say this. I's wery hard to emulate the neo on a pc. Because it has so many functions, your pc doesen't. Eg. touch screen.
15:28.46SpeedEvilNot really.
15:28.53SpeedEvilthe touchscreen is about it.
15:28.57SpeedEvilyou can fake the rest.
15:29.07MortenLysgaardgps and gsm?
15:30.16guaquaplain text files
15:30.20koen300DPI?
15:30.23guaquacalling really is another thing
15:30.35SpeedEvil285DPI and the touchscreen is the biggy.
15:30.47SpeedEvilgpsd already comes with a 'fake' module
15:30.52SpeedEvilor you could just plug in a GPS.
15:30.57balrog-kunwhat's the problem with touchscreen?
15:31.01MortenLysgaardTrue
15:31.07SpeedEvilmost PCs don't have them.
15:31.13MortenLysgaard:P
15:31.17SpeedEvilwhich makes developing a little harder.
15:31.37balrog-kuni think it doesn't matter for the emulator whether there's a touchscreen or a mouse or trackabll
15:31.47SpeedEvilStrictly, no.
15:31.56koenif you don't care about touchscreen and dpi, why do you need an emulator?
15:31.58SpeedEvilFor usability, it may help a fair bit.
15:32.01koenjust run your app under X
15:32.10balrog-kunqemu already emulates a couple of touchscreens, including the neo one (this is not public code though, but will be public in not too long)
15:32.51SpeedEvilFor example, you simply can't get an idea with a mouse about what gestures on the screen 'feel' like in real life.
15:33.05SpeedEvilAnd how practical drawing glyphs on the screen is.
15:33.38balrog-kunyou can do less things with a touchscreen than with a mouse,
15:33.52SpeedEvilYou can do different things with a touchscreen than a mouse.
15:33.54balrog-kunemulating the other way would be more problematic, but not mch more
15:34.12zipolaOne could test is with those wacom tablets.
15:34.17SpeedEvil'finger painting' with a touchscreen, and using a mouse are _very_ different actions.
15:34.24balrog-kunSpeedEvil: well, yes, but thinking in terms of the set of possible signals that X receives
15:34.40balrog-kunthe touch event is equivalent with mouse left button press
15:34.52SpeedEvilIn terms of that, hundreds of buttons on the screen at once would make sense.
15:35.16SpeedEvilI have wondered about a mouse wanderer.
15:35.26SpeedEvilit makes mouse clicks displaced by a given radius.
15:35.34SpeedEvilup to a given radius.
15:35.34balrog-kunno, X receives through evdev only three kinds of data: single x coordinate, y coordinate and touch (up/down, no pressure)
15:35.39SpeedEviland tracks a bit blobby.
15:35.51SpeedEvilno - I mean to simulate finger inaccuracy.
15:36.40SpeedEvilwind it up for finger, down for pointer.
15:37.38balrog-kuntouchscreen doesn't know what is touching the screen
15:37.46SpeedEvilNo - for the emulator.
15:37.59SpeedEvilto make the mouse as inaccurate as a finger.
15:38.13balrog-kunah
15:38.14dhoFor practical purposes, how accurate is qemu as far as developing things for OpenMoko
15:38.21dhofrom an OS standpoint
15:38.51balrog-kunactually qemu is inserting slight noise in touchscreen measures that it reports, because tslib depends on this (which i think is a tslib bug)
15:39.36dhoIt seems like it emulates two different platforms, and it's not clear whether it serves as good enough of a hardware reference to implement support for the phone in another OS
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15:51.59PrayagI cannot say about UI but afa Network connectivity and GPS is concerned, ther have been emulators for mobile devics which do a pretty decent job
15:52.23Prayagand me too think Mouse Pointer is nearly as good as styles
15:53.56Prayagi read in the FAQ, if your first question is about an emulator, chances are you would never develop. =P
15:55.38aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wishlist:Bootable_USB_device_emulation]]
15:56.55dhoPrayag: excuse me?
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15:58.54mjryeah, that jab is due to the fact that for most stuff that you'd usually use an emulator for in developing for a cell, there is no _need_ with openmoko
15:59.30dhomjr: Only if you're planning on using Linux on it.
15:59.54dhoIf you're planning on porting an OS to it, you need either the device or some sort of reference
16:00.13SpeedEvilOpenmoko is a 'distribution' for linux.
16:00.16dhoI'm trying to figure out how easy it would be to entice an SoC student to do it, and whether I'm going to have to spend $550 on it.
16:00.22SpeedEvilit's not inherently linux.
16:00.24mjr"for _most_ stuff that you'd usually use an emulator for in developing for a cell" :]
16:00.40dhoPardon the terminology
16:00.42ElrondIs it me, or is the wiki slowish?
16:01.30SpeedEvil<PROTECTED>
16:01.44quickdevElrond: the wiki
16:01.53quickdevit seems to be down
16:02.03ElrondOkay.
16:02.12SpeedEvilloaded recentchanges in 8s or so for me.
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16:02.24Prayagquickdev: working fine for me
16:03.10quickdevmight be ;)
16:04.36Prayaghey whats the security on an OpenMoko device ?
16:04.58mjrin what way?
16:04.59SpeedEvilIt has a poultergeist.
16:05.04dhohaha
16:05.04mjrit's a linux system.
16:05.09SpeedEvilIt throws things at potential thieves.
16:05.13mjrit probably doesn't have many servers on by default
16:05.22mjrI mean servers listening on network sockets
16:05.24SpeedEvilMore seriously - it's a linux box.
16:05.29SpeedEvilwith some prototype phone stuff.
16:05.48Prayagno i mean like other phones have a 4 digit "unlocking code"
16:05.52SpeedEvilquestions about features - rather than desires for features is mostly misplaced at the moment.
16:05.56SpeedEvilnot implemented.
16:06.12mjrPrayag, that's actually the SIM that has the code
16:06.35PrayagYEs the SIM does have PIN code (Personal IDentification doe)
16:06.49Prayagbut do does most of the phones....
16:07.45Prayag*so do most of the phones
16:08.05Clintso if you steal the phone, you need to know the code before taking out the battery and sim
16:08.21mjryeah well, that
16:08.35quickdevthe battery power won't be the critical factor ;)
16:08.38mjrthere have been a lot of ideas for "stolen mode" etc. but probably not much implemented so far :]
16:09.03dhocall 911 and play a wav that says i'm stolen
16:09.11quickdevrhrr :)
16:09.21quickdevwith gps position reported ;)
16:09.21dhoand giving the location with the gps
16:09.25dhohahahaha
16:09.51PrayagPIN protection has a problem that because its a smartcard if u enter the code wrong three times.. its locked
16:10.32quickdevWho is comparing the code? the card internally?
16:10.38Prayagyes
16:10.47Elrondquickdev - for sim-pin: Yes, the card.
16:10.51Prayagnot exactly... because the card is the client
16:10.57quickdevWho is it at the moment? Is no pin code required?
16:11.02dhothe card has minimal processor and RAM on it.
16:11.18dhoPrayag: doesn't have to be
16:11.26Prayagdho: asolutely, but it does have a PIN
16:11.49Prayagdho: din't get u :/
16:11.50dhoPrayag: you can choose to not boot without a certain SIM without a certain PIN
16:12.18*** join/#openmoko MacNorth_ (n=daijobu@c-75-71-250-33.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
16:12.22Prayagdjo: still din't get u
16:12.56PrayagIMHO, this security is not for the phone, its for the card
16:13.00*** join/#openmoko maydaytx (i=johndoe@cpe-72-178-73-122.hot.res.rr.com)
16:13.10dho....Right, I'm not arguing that.
16:13.24Prayagto access certain files on the card, you need to have certain previledges...
16:13.53dhoThan I don't understand the base of your question. Why ask about security if you already know about smart card security implementations?
16:13.54Prayagtherecan be upto 16 key sets, as they are called
16:14.10Prayagthere is inherent problems with SIM security
16:14.22dhoFor who? The card or the phone?
16:14.32Prayagfor the user
16:14.49dhoIn what sense?
16:15.13Prayag1. The problem of locking as i already said
16:15.15Elronddos? A malicious software could disable the sim. ;o)
16:15.39dhoElrond: require escalated privileges to write to that memory
16:15.41dhoIf the user is too stupid to remember a 4 - 6 digit code, they _should_ be locked out.
16:15.41Prayag2.Since its a 4 digit code... brute force doesn't take much time
16:15.46dhoYes it does
16:15.48Prayag:)
16:15.59dhoIt gets locked after 3 tries
16:16.02Prayagyes..
16:16.06dhoAnd then you need a much longer PUK code.
16:16.12Prayagand u need a PIN2 to unlock that
16:16.23Prayag10 tries to that
16:16.31Prayagand after that .. puff!! its gone
16:16.38dhoSo
16:16.38Prayagunusable
16:16.53dhoWhy is this not a problem for any other phone company?
16:17.05dhoI don't see the issue here.
16:17.24Prayag:) its not an issue because they have their security mesures
16:17.28dhoBrute forcing a 10000 digit space with 13 tries
16:17.52dhois 1/13th of 1 percent chance of unlocking the device
16:18.10dhoWhich is sufficiently small IMO
16:18.24dhoI'd be more concerned about someone stealing the phone and using a different SIM card in it
16:18.26ElrondPrayag - I still don't get the issue.
16:18.39dhoIn that case, I would have it trash the SIM card
16:18.46ElrondYou can buy a gsm module for about $50, which lets you do the same.
16:18.55PrayagThe issue is phone security thats all
16:19.07Prayagu might have sesitive data on phone, how do u secure that
16:19.15ElrondAhh.
16:19.17dhoHow I said.
16:19.17Elrondencryption.
16:19.25guaquayes, encryption
16:19.29dhoRequire a valid SIM code to boot
16:19.34dhopossibly encrypt data
16:19.51dho``don't store something really private on your phone that you leave at the restaurant?''
16:19.53Prayagand how do u authorize the user then  ???
16:20.04mjrPrayag, several methods
16:20.16Prayagmjr:for example
16:20.19mjryou could store the encryption key on the sim card, in which case it'd be behind the PIN
16:20.20Elrondpassprhase to decrypt.
16:20.27dholet's go back 45 years when the idea of user authentication first came up
16:20.28mjror you could just have a separate passphrase, yes
16:20.53mjr(or one of the keying methods customized for a touchscreen)
16:21.11mjrdraw a complex squiqqle ;)
16:21.12Prayagmjr: exactly, biometrics...
16:21.48Prayagmost secure methods... keystrokes or voice recognition
16:21.52mjrwell, _you_ brought up biometrics
16:21.52rbs-titothe touchscreen is nowhere near sensitive enough to read biometric data
16:22.07Elronddho - Okay, we're 45 years back in time. Now what?
16:22.11rbs-titoExcept a custom squiggle
16:22.13dhoElrond: read :)
16:22.20rbs-titoDid we get the time machine out for nothing?
16:23.00dhorbs-tito: I'm hoping Prayag will hop in and research the myriad successful, secure, proven user authentication schemes that have been devised in that timespace.
16:23.04mjrElrond, buy IBM
16:23.08dhohahaha
16:23.09Prayagi know that a user can recodnised by the way he presses the keys.. can we do it using touch screen too
16:23.41rbs-titoWhat about a dental check, you impy bite the touch screen
16:23.44rbs-tito*simply
16:24.14mjr:)
16:24.14dhohaha
16:24.14dhorbs-tito: better
16:24.14dhorbs-tito: DNA
16:24.14Prayag:D
16:24.14dhosneeze on it
16:24.15dhoit will identify the level of bacteria in your snot
16:24.29dhoPossible DoS methods:
16:24.32dhoGetting sick
16:24.34Prayagbtw dental marks is a biometric method u see... but the problem is.. how do u ask a user to bite his own phone ???
16:24.36dhotaking antibiotics
16:24.58dhoPrayag: By attaching the DentalPro 1000 dongle
16:25.04Elronddho - *LOL*
16:25.09Prayag:D
16:25.39aloril(script) openmoko-devel: Harald Welte <laforge at openmoko.org> Re: agpsd status and 1 other mails
16:26.38aloril(script) openmoko-devel: Harald Welte <laforge at openmoko.org> Re: USB on-the-go (OTG)- how to use the Neo1973 with USB host and
16:26.39aloril(script) openmoko-neo1973: Harald Welte <laforge at openmoko.org> Re: increasing vibrator strength
16:27.25rbs-titoThe Openmoko doubles as a vibrator? O_o
16:28.22dhoHAHA
16:28.38dhorbs-tito: That's the other dongle....
16:29.48rbs-titodho: Ooh, USB or Bluetooth?
16:30.01rbs-titoWait a minute, GPRS sex.
16:30.51SpeedEvilwww.thetoy.co.uk got there first.
16:31.23dhoDammit.
16:31.31dhoI had that idea at least 5 years ago :(
16:31.45rbs-titolol
16:33.27rbs-titoWill the Openmoko decode and play OGGs?
16:33.50mjryes
16:33.53guaquait can do that
16:34.21rbs-titoGood :) This means I might not need to find a seperate MP3 player
16:35.08ewanm89rbs-tito: You'll what a micro SD card for storage space
16:35.40rbs-titoYeah. Maybe a standalone MP3 player would be needed still
16:36.04rbs-titoMaybe that could be the next FIC project, an MP3 player running rockbox
16:36.49*** join/#openmoko danilos (n=danilo@adsl-236-193.eunet.yu)
16:37.17mjrI do intend to use my Neo also for music
16:37.33mjra 2GB microSD has space for a couple of songs too..
16:39.32guaquai'm more than happy with my normal collection of 128 MB
16:44.08theholyduckyoul get a good bit of vorbis encoded music on a 2gb card
16:44.18SpeedEvilIndeed.
16:44.42theholyduckas for a player. you can always just install mplayer on it
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16:45.48theholyduckrbs-tito, ogg is a container not a encoding. just btw
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16:45.49theholyduck:P
16:46.28*** join/#openmoko guerby (n=guerby@gut75-4-82-235-162-148.fbx.proxad.net)
16:48.01guaquatheholyduck: or then again, actually make up a gui
16:48.18guaquavanilla mplayer might not be too handy on touchscreen
16:48.22theholyducktrue
16:48.32*** join/#openmoko koen (n=koen@dominion.kabel.utwente.nl)
16:48.54theholyduckbut console playing is just so cool
16:49.08guaquageneric media player with playlist support. not too complicated. might also be handy to have good podcast integration for seamless podcast updates
16:49.52theholyduckwell for the playlist etc. you could always just use some sort of modifyed mplayer
16:50.06theholyduckwith a gui that works with a touchscreen
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16:50.23guaquayes
16:50.59theholyduckmplayer is a good place to start anyways. since it runs on ARM
16:52.51vmasteri'd use madplay on a non-fpu system like the arm920t
16:53.09*** join/#openmoko vrt (n=vrt@unaffiliated/cherubiel)
16:53.10vmastermad uses only fixed-point arithmetic
16:53.34balrog-kunmpg123 runs too and does only fixed-point
16:54.49koenmplayer -ac mad
16:55.39aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wishlist:Bootable_USB_device_emulation]] [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]]
16:56.35CMDoes gstreamer have any fixed point decoders?
16:56.58CMThey said they were working on a lot of embedded and phone stuff now
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17:01.35guaquatheholyduck: there's xmms-embedded, too
17:04.59koenxmms-embedded is a farce
17:05.30koenCM: gstreamer was targetted at arm years ago
17:05.39koengoogle for ridgerun inc.
17:06.06SpeedEvilmplayer works for ogg IIRC at a little more CPU than mp3
17:06.13SpeedEvil33% IIRC, compared with 25.
17:06.15*** join/#openmoko prom (n=prom@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de)
17:06.43koenI suspect every decoder is using the tremor codec
17:07.18SpeedEvilAs a datapoint - hardware little DSPs that are used for decoding ogg/mp3 uses more power for ogg.
17:09.34CMkoen: Was just thinking of the last lugradio show where Christian Schaller said they were doing a lot of embedded things right now. :)
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17:17.35quickdevHas the display a solid surface or is it rather 'soft' and deformable?
17:18.06balrog-kunrather solid, glass-like
17:18.20SpeedEvilsoft plastic
17:18.25SpeedEvilwith a glass underlay
17:18.35SpeedEvilthe travel is very small till you hit the glass
17:18.44balrog-kunsoftness depends on the force you apply :p
17:19.18quickdevso you can't damage the display very easily? ;)
17:19.20SpeedEvilI mean not very hard. think slightly thinner than a plastic coke bottle, and of much the same stuff.
17:19.37SpeedEvilIt'll shatter as easily as any touchscreen.
17:19.44SpeedEvilProbably.
17:20.13SpeedEvilOne thing I want to find out - when P0 people are upgraded to P1 - or even if only the internal ones are - is drop testing.
17:20.14balrog-kuntouchscreens usually survive and LCDs break from my experience
17:20.54SpeedEvildrop from 10cm onto concrete from all orientations, test functionality, multiply distance by 1.5, repeat.
17:21.01quickdevSpeedEvil: but it won't damage in your pocket? :)
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17:21.17SpeedEvilIt will be instantly scratched by any metal objects.
17:21.29SpeedEvilrepeat with another phone onto carpet.
17:21.45balrog-kunprovoke a collision of a Neo1973 with a OLPC moving with the same velocity in opposite directions :p
17:21.48*** join/#openmoko theholyduck (n=theholyd@ti231210a340-2247.bb.online.no)
17:22.13koenI suspect the lid is the first thing to come off
17:22.37SpeedEvilTrue. I want to know when actual irreversable non-cosmetic damage happens though.
17:23.01SpeedEvilI.E. LCD breaks, or GSM stops working.
17:24.54dhobuy another one!
17:26.37CoreDump|home"buying" is currently a bit of a problem ;)
17:26.40*** join/#openmoko zween (n=zween@212-139-252-29.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com)
17:26.49koenlid - lcd - gps - gsm antenna
17:26.58koenI suspect it will fail in that order
17:27.03quickdevcounter
17:27.03alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, 4 days 18:32:56 (11.773 +-7.0 days) (625)
17:27.55quickdevI think the first 500 will go away in days ;)
17:28.38SpeedEvilBut if /window goto 3
17:28.39SpeedEvilBut if /window goto 2
17:28.40SpeedEvilBut if /window goto 3
17:28.42SpeedEvilgah
17:28.58inzYour irssi didn't understand conditionals?
17:30.02SpeedEvilI do to - but my alt key has a bit of rice underneath it.
17:30.04dhoI'm in a lot of channels :P
17:30.06promSpeedEvil: the display is a lot hardier than it looks like.
17:30.11CMSpeedEvil: lol
17:30.33dhojeez
17:30.39dhoam I the only one that uses letter keys as well?
17:30.40promSpeedEvil: its quite bendable, too. i think that the biggest danger to it are hard, pointy things. pressure shouldnt be much of a problem.
17:30.40CMbalrog-kun: Thanks, I didn't know about the arrows :)
17:30.44dhoirssi works with q to o by default also
17:30.55*** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@206.80-202-161.nextgentel.com)
17:30.56dhofor 11 to 19
17:31.02CMdho: Nice :-)
17:31.13dhoI just happen to need p to l
17:31.27ElrondStart a second irssi. ;)
17:31.37Elrondand put both in screen ;)
17:31.50inzI use ctrl+p and ctrl+n instead of <esc>arrows
17:32.39CMinz: I didn't know that one either.. Been to lazy to read all man files ;)
17:32.40ElrondSpeedEvil - I wonder, if the FIC people got my screen protctor thread. ;o)
17:33.02inzCM, man files be damned, just blindly press all the keys at random and see what happends... ;)
17:33.03dhobalrog-kun: I'm on other networks too heh
17:33.28ElrondCM - Meta-A switches to another window with activity. I leave the excercise to find out, which of many it chooses to the reader ;)
17:34.09SpeedEvil80*90 terms ftw.
17:34.26inzElrond, I have actually a script that prioritised some windows when pressing meta-a
17:34.37inz-typo
17:35.04dhoto play guitar hero or not to play guitar hero
17:35.07dhothat is the question
17:35.18ElrondThe priority ones are lower numbered, so I can just do Meta-3
17:36.42inzSpeed, 80x50 ftw!
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17:37.03PrayagWhat exactly qualifies as a deliverable ??
17:37.24PrayagCan anyone please tell me... :)
17:37.59abraxa__Prayag: "deliverable" in what context?
17:38.18SpeedEvilA deliverable is something deliverable in terms of a contract.
17:38.22koenGSoC?
17:38.26Prayagin the context of present Projects
17:38.27SpeedEvilIt may - for example be source code
17:38.28SpeedEviloh
17:38.41balrog-kunoh google
17:38.57balrog-kunit means just goals, i think
17:39.11SpeedEvildeliverables are what you are contracted to deliver.
17:39.13SpeedEvilbasically.
17:39.30SpeedEvilin some cases it's just an end product - a binary.
17:39.44SpeedEvilin others it'll be all the working notes, source, binary, documentation, ...
17:39.57Prayagok..  do modules of the project count as deliverable??
17:40.27Prayagi mean... (4 neatly defined module) * integration = project
17:40.51*** part/#openmoko andlo (n=andlo@0x50a4097e.hgnxx4.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk)
17:41.06Prayagnow, can these modules be quoted as deliverables ?
17:42.09Prayagi m sorry i din't realise this is not GoSoC specific channel, I mean in refernce to GoSoC only
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17:45.12koengpstk works on arm
17:45.47PrayagSpeedEvil, if you would please :)
17:46.09SpeedEvilI dunno.
17:46.16SpeedEvilGo and read the GSoC terms and conditions.
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17:48.28Prayagok.. thanks..
17:48.46Prayagthere was nothing given there, so i just asked
17:49.27*** join/#openmoko MetaBookfoziS (n=sajt@3e44be55.adsl.enternet.hu)
17:51.50balrog-kunmaybe think of deliverables as what users get from your project
17:53.03quickdevI'm running mokoMakefile 'make setup' - Is it ordinary, that it runs hours?
17:53.24guaquathe whole thing takes about 7 hours on my computer
17:53.51quickdevargh - mainly depends on the internet connection?
17:55.39aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]]
17:58.31*** join/#openmoko Moo^^ (n=moo@owla-gw.cust.eunet.fi)
17:58.43guaquaquickdev: i have 100/100, so no
17:58.47Prayagbalrog-kun: thanks :)
17:58.50guaquacompile times are notorious
18:00.39quickdevI hope my dual core will proceed fast :P
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18:10.35buzis GTA02 p1.5?
18:11.25balrog-kunare there references to GTA02 somewhere?
18:11.26CMI'd guess on p2
18:12.12buzbalrog-kun: harald mentions on the list that there MIGHT be SOME usb power in GTA02
18:12.22balrog-kunah ok
18:12.34balrog-kunthat would be nice
18:12.46buzgimme enough to run an USB stick on it
18:13.00buzthat shouldnt take much
18:13.03SpeedEvilI did some tests.
18:13.12SpeedEvilAnd found a USB stick took 50-60mA
18:13.15SpeedEvilless at USB1.1
18:13.18buzoh really?
18:13.20balrog-kunthey'll give you half of the voltage :p  so you can keep on dreaming
18:13.35SpeedEvilLogically.
18:13.42SpeedEvilYou'd want 100mA@5V
18:13.52SpeedEvilas that should work for all standards compliant stuff.
18:14.39*** join/#openmoko zween (n=zween@212-139-252-29.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com)
18:15.05buzonly self powered one really
18:15.10buzor very low power devices
18:15.20SpeedEvilprinters
18:15.27SpeedEvilkeyboards, ...
18:15.31buzi dont think i care for a printer on a phone
18:15.42*** join/#openmoko atla (n=atla@p3ee3f023.dip.t-dialin.net)
18:15.46buzbesides, drivers are binary only for my samsung laser
18:15.50SpeedEvilPeople will want to print faxes.
18:15.53SpeedEvilFor example.
18:16.10PBeckre
18:16.19SpeedEvil100mA is guaranteed to be enough power for standards compliant stuff to read the actual device info.
18:16.28SpeedEvilAnd then to set it up in low power mode if it supports it.
18:17.04buzi only care for keyboard and usb memory ;)
18:17.16SpeedEvilYou can tell that a wifi stick has been plugged in, for example, and read the descriptor that says it uses 300mA and not enable it for example.
18:17.17buzand for keyboard i can always go bluetooth reall
18:17.40buzwell i really hope for internal wifi for 1.5 ;)
18:17.50SpeedEvilI mean that as an example.
18:17.53buz(atheros ar6001 seems like it could work ;)
18:17.54SpeedEvilScanner for example.
18:18.03SpeedEvilOr joystick with force feedback.
18:18.16buzyou can easily use a powered hub with a scanner
18:18.21SpeedEvilTrue.
18:18.25buzits not like a scanner fits into your pocket
18:18.30buz(not a normal one anywaY)
18:18.42buz(same goes for the keyboard, anyway)
18:18.46SpeedEvilThe point is that you can plug any USB thing into it, and it may function somewhat.
18:19.03buzwebcam =
18:19.04buz?
18:19.06SpeedEvilFor example, a camera might let you read the memory card, though it won't charge or take pictures.
18:19.19SpeedEvilthey tend to be moderately high powered IME.
18:19.26buznever had one
18:19.37SpeedEvilfor webcams I mean.
18:19.43buzyeah i know ;)
18:19.48buzmoderately useless devices
18:20.15buzi wonder if there would be a camera small enough to fit into the frame of glasses
18:20.26buzto get like 24/7 filming of your life
18:21.09buzvga would be quite enough for that purpose
18:21.18quickdevSpeedEvil: are you developer?
18:22.40balrog-kunbuz: depends on the purpose :p
18:23.05buzwell with more than vga you quickly need a lot of cpu power for encoding of the video
18:23.12buzmpeg4@vga is feasible
18:23.25balrog-kunright, and glasses don't have that much cpu power :P
18:23.36balrog-kunat least the usual type
18:23.45buzspace for the camera is more of an issue i gues
18:24.11buzyou could always make bigger frame in the back to host a cpu
18:24.12buzbut ideally it should be stealth
18:24.43balrog-kunyou could have a second camera somewhere under the tongue, recording everything you're eating
18:25.08buzmhh that movies might even make money
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18:40.13MortenLysgaardI just have to say it: Gimme wifi!
18:41.27MortenLysgaardThanks :P
18:41.43MortenLysgaard*laughing*
18:43.43*** join/#openmoko msroest (n=msroest@S01060040f41dad58.cg.shawcable.net)
18:44.42MortenLysgaardBut, I'm wondering. Where I live, in Norway, everybody have wifi in their houses, and many doesn't have encryption. So if Neo had a wifichip I could get internet almost evetywhere where there's people. How is to you?
18:47.30*** join/#openmoko zween (n=zween@212-139-252-29.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com)
18:48.49MortenLysgaardHow much do you pay koen, and neo doesn't have edge?
18:49.11mjrI suspect the plan covers non-edge gprs as well
18:50.24koenI could switch to t-mobile
18:50.38koenflatrate umts/edge/gprs for €9.50/month
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18:51.16guaquahere that costs 10 euros
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18:54.49MortenLysgaardin norway you have to pay 450 nok for flatrate gprs, that about 50eur
18:55.39aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:Summer_of_code]] [[Wishlist:Bootable_USB_device_emulation]]
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19:25.39Prayaghey mentors any project in OpenMoko (GoSoC) not applied for yet ?? :)
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19:56.39aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:Summer_of_code]]
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20:09.10m4t_i want a neo1973
20:09.19CMcounter
20:09.20alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, 4 days 15:50:40 (11.660 +-7.0 days) (626)
20:09.31m4t_r u excited
20:09.49m4t_im gonna try and get my work to buy me one
20:10.03CMHeh, that would be nice
20:11.51m4t_ya
20:12.02m4t_i think i gotta switch providers tho
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20:12.09MandarinoHi ppl :)
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20:47.58BrianHVI'm looking at MokoMakefile, and when I do make setup, I get an error indicating that "branch org.openembedded.dev has multiple heads."  is there a suggested resolution to that issue?
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20:48.58CMBrianHV: I got that too, and had to do a mtn merge or something like that
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20:51.59pavelmHeya, everyone.
20:52.16CMBrianHV: Me neither, sadly ;)
20:52.43pavelmmickeyl blogged that he has working dialer and basic PIM applications...
20:53.35pavelm...ouch and word of warning: Neo charger is crap that puts ~60V AC (relative to ground) on its output. You can feel that.
20:53.53CMHehe
20:54.09Psirelative to which ground?
20:55.26pavelmpsi: relative to earth
20:55.31Psihehe
20:55.49Psiare its outputs floating?
20:56.11pavelm...fortunately openmoko does not seem to have any metal parts on the outside :-)
20:56.16pavelmpsi: probably.
20:56.39aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]]
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20:57.13pavelmOk, I have to get some sleep. Bye bye.
20:57.35CMNight
20:57.43quickdevdream of your neo ;)
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22:51.01darxgreetins
22:51.36darxwhen would openmoko be released?
22:51.37alorildarx: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
22:54.37Elronddarx - What do you mean?
22:56.18darxElrond: i'd like to buy one.. so i'd like to know when it'll be released and when i'll be able to buy one
22:56.21mjrdarx, it has been released already, though a rather early version
22:57.36darxmjr: cool.. and i suppose that would not be available for purchase?
23:00.04balrog-kunnot yet
23:00.49balrog-kunand it'll be overly expensive at first
23:01.48balrog-kuni wonder if they are going to make more money with the developer preview version or the final mass sale version
23:02.50Agrajag-hmm last i heard they were always both going to be US$350
23:03.27balrog-kunoh? i thought that was only the preview version
23:10.02Elrondbalrog-kun - expensive?
23:11.09balrog-kunElrond: as for a phone
23:11.37ElrondYeah, okay.  But for a linux pda?
23:11.39balrog-kunyou can also find cheaper arm based pdas with higher clocking (but probably less ram)
23:12.39ElrondThe rumours tend to say, that the mass market version would have a faster cpu.
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23:13.32ElrondTv - How was your talk?
23:13.58Elrondbalrog-kun - What is a reasonable pricing for a useful linux pda with gps?
23:14.21stefan_schmidtElrond: Faster CPU is for sure. Other stuff is still in progress.
23:15.08SuNStill.. an HTC P3600 is like $600, and it's QVGA.
23:15.22balrog-kunElrond: there probably aren't any with gps
23:15.39balrog-kunyou could count N800 with a bluetooth gpd
23:15.41balrog-kun*gps
23:16.02ElrondSo what'a n800 + bt-gps in $?
23:16.17stefan_schmidtbalrog-kun: Which has the same price and no GSM. :)
23:16.18balrog-kundeveloper versions of N800 are EUR 90
23:16.23balrog-kun:P
23:16.46stefan_schmidtbalrog-kun: If you count dev versions, my Neo waa free.
23:17.12ElrondWell, what's an n800 + gps for _me_ ?
23:17.14stefan_schmidtbalrog-kun: The interested numbers to compare are normal prices.
23:17.21balrog-kuntrue..
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23:17.25stefan_schmidtElrond: ~370$
23:17.25balrog-kunElrond: i'm not sure
23:17.47stefan_schmidtElrond: 350 for N800 and 20 or more for GPS
23:18.16stefan_schmidtAnd now add the cheap GSM phone and the space is your pocket for carry this all. ;)
23:18.31ElrondOkay. So in the end, if I want a linux-pda with gps, the neo seems less-expensive.
23:18.54ElrondThe n800 has no gsm?
23:19.02stefan_schmidtThe price is ok imho. We just need to get newer chips in it. :)
23:19.10stefan_schmidtElrond: no
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23:19.25stefan_schmidtElrond: Not designed as a phone
23:19.44ElrondAhh.
23:19.58balrog-kunElrond: nope, you would need a modem for this i think
23:20.04balrog-kunpcmcia or something
23:20.38SuNThat'
23:20.50SuNs not going to last through the day though/
23:21.43stefan_schmidtbalrog-kun: N800 has no PCMCIA, right? Would be braindead in this small case
23:22.54balrog-kunhmm, i thought it had, but i may be wrong
23:23.35stefan_schmidtbalrog-kun: I can't say for sure, only N770 here, but I really doubt it.
23:24.56balrog-kunstefan_schmidt: appears you're right, looking at wikipedia
23:25.06balrog-kunthere are two SD slots instead
23:25.20stefan_schmidtyeah
23:26.26Moo^^Elrond: you want N770 GPS?
23:26.26alorilMoo^^: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
23:27.06ElrondMoo^^ - Huh?
23:27.33Moo^^I just read some random lines above - Navicore has N770 based GPS product: http://www.navicoretech.com/
23:28.10ElrondI guess, the battery life wont be fun. ;)
23:28.22ElrondOn the n800 webpage I read soemthing like 3,5 hours browsing time. ;)
23:29.40Moo^^I think display sucks the most of it
23:29.46Moo^^800x600 is not cheap, you know :)
23:29.59ElrondYep.
23:30.08Elrond800x480 I read.
23:30.18Moo^^ops, sorry
23:30.24ElrondI yet have to find the size of the screen.
23:30.26Moo^^must be 800x480 since it's not 4:3
23:31.25ElrondAnd let me guess, the n800/770 have no free (as in speach) OS?
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23:32.03Moo^^it's debian based
23:32.12Moo^^there are some binary blobs
23:32.23Moo^^but kernel is open AFAIK
23:32.31Moo^^Elrond: maemo.org
23:32.36ElrondAhh. :-)
23:32.47ElrondI thought, maemo.org made only userspace trickery or so.
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23:34.04ElrondMoo^^ - The binary blobs are for wifi or so?
23:34.13balrog-kuntheir kernel changes are slowly pushed to linux-omap-2.6 tree (and from the changes go to mainline, even slower)
23:34.16Moo^^and for handwrite recognition
23:34.39mjrand several other things...
23:34.41Moo^^also, N770 team has done a lot of Gnome tweaks to make it run better
23:35.06Moo^^good evening mjr, my owlery friend :)
23:35.26balrog-kunthey hired o-hand.com for a the Gnome changes and some of the maemo parts
23:36.13ElrondHmmm.
23:37.08ElrondIf I want a linux thingy, I want it to be without binary blobs. The gpsd(-plugin) already annoys me.  If I wanted a binary thingy, I could buy a normal phone, or a garmin gps.
23:38.31rohElrond yes, but as far as i know the question was small binary blob in userspace with only serial to the hardware or no gps at all.. so i'm kinda glad we have at least that
23:40.00Elrondroh - Yeah. Well, a sirf3 would have eaten little more power and would have used open protocols.
23:40.36rohand really shitty reception AND lock time if the specs of the hammerhead are right
23:41.01rohi know sirf3 and it sucks big time to wait 30seconds till it knows where it is when under open sky
23:41.21rohlets not think about locking indoors ;)
23:41.31ElrondMoo^^ - I was dependent on a binary kernel blob for my pc at home. Guess what? Right. The vendor dropped supporr for my hardware I stuck at 2.0.x, when 2.4.20 was out there.  I'm pissed by that.
23:42.11rohand yeah there are other not-softmodem-gps chips for mobile use.. but they are in a completely other cost-domain so are afaik out of the question
23:43.01rohElrond its NOT a kerneel-binary-blob (which is really important) and it does not touch any registers of the hardware (which is important to contain and debug with it)
23:43.26Elrondroh - Yes, I know. That's, why I'm mostly happy with it.
23:44.22ElrondAlthough it might become annoying in 10 years.... imagine the userspace thingy would be a.out ;o)
23:44.45rohand hey.. we can easyly swap the hammerhead out for another, better solution on the way to gtaY where Y is > 1 when we find some chip which is similar in price and fits out licence-problems
23:45.37ElrondI'd be happy with TTFF in the 30sec order. :)
23:45.37rohElrond it might. but lets complete the function first and get it working so we have the time to make it nice before the hardware isn't buyable anymore
23:46.29ElrondYeah. I anyway guess, that some geeks will decode the protocol sooner or later and we'll have a nice open hammerhead library ;)
23:46.46rohyep.. have fun with it :)
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23:48.29rohElrond but hey.. youre in germany... the land of the (mostly/best known) reverse-engineering laws *g*
23:48.46SuNEurope FTW!
23:50.48balrog-kunthe userspace thingy is not in any popular format
23:51.03balrog-kun..or rather, even if it is, the gpsd needs to implement a loader for it anyway
23:54.57balrog-kungood night
23:56.10Elrondroh - What do you mean?
23:56.39aloril(script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:Neo1973_Power_Management]]
23:57.34rohElrond that reverse-engineering is relatively harmless and relaxed here, compared to e.g. the US where you can go to jail for voiding some stiupid eula
23:58.09rohhere you can even disassemble sth. if you only use what youve learned to generate some kind of 'compatibility'
23:58.55rohbut be careful. neither am i a lawyer nor can i give (or are allowed to give by law) any law-wise advise ;)

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