| 00:03.19 | pavelm-goingtosl | tobix: you have that old linux pda? |
| 00:03.19 | aloril | pavelm-goingtosl: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
| 00:03.33 | pavelm-goingtosl | aloril: YOu are annoying |
| 00:03.41 | prom | *grml* does anyone have the debug port pinout at hand? somehow cant find it in the wiki. |
| 00:03.55 | SpeedEvil | It's not public |
| 00:04.01 | TobiX | pavelm-goingtosl: Yes, It's sitting on my desk. Got it last year from a friend who had no use for it... |
| 00:04.03 | SpeedEvil | and is changing for V4 |
| 00:04.16 | SpeedEvil | (which is the phase 1 hardware) |
| 00:04.34 | pavelm-goingtosl | tobix: Poor you.. that's even slower hardware than collie (sharp zaurus sl-5500), right? |
| 00:04.59 | TobiX | pavelm-goingtosl: Yes, it's awfully slow... |
| 00:05.27 | prom | SpeedEvil: damn. ive got the board, but harald forgot the FPC. and id like a hard reset. ;) |
| 00:05.35 | SpeedEvil | Ah. |
| 00:05.45 | *** join/#openmoko gambler (n=orion@203-206-59-67.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 00:05.54 | SpeedEvil | You have the debug board? |
| 00:05.55 | pavelm-goingtosl | prom: What is FPC? |
| 00:06.03 | *** join/#openmoko helb (n=helb@84.244.90.159) |
| 00:06.03 | SpeedEvil | Flat connecotr wire |
| 00:06.19 | Elrond | pavelm-goingtosl - flexible printed circuit. |
| 00:06.29 | *** part/#openmoko AndrewB (n=andy@tuxhacker/pdpc.supporter.student.AndrewB) |
| 00:06.30 | SpeedEvil | One of the test points next to the connector isn't labelled 'reset' is it? |
| 00:06.58 | prom | pavelm: literally flexible printed circuit. just a cable in this case. |
| 00:07.27 | pavelm-goingtosl | prom: Aha, yes, that stuff near the debug board that I hope I'll never have to use. |
| 00:08.15 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - BTW: Part of the debug board port seems to be a standard 20pin ARM JTAG thingy. |
| 00:08.33 | Elrond | ... or maybe the 20ping standard thing is _also_ on the debug board. |
| 00:08.47 | prom | SpeedEvil: there are labels, including reset. but i dont know how they correspond to the TPs. the counts dont match. ;) |
| 00:09.31 | TobiX | pavelm-goingtosl: 43,32 BogoMIPS, 66MHz mipsel |
| 00:09.44 | prom | but never mind, this can wait. thanks for the help. |
| 00:09.59 | pavelm-goingtosl | tobix: 66MHz is quite okay (it has mono display, iirc?), but 8MB ram or something is not. |
| 00:10.32 | rwhitby | the 20 pin empty header spot on the debug v2 board is a standard arm 20 pin jtag port. |
| 00:10.34 | pavelm-goingtosl | tobix: port openmoko to _that_ and you can be sure it will be _very_ fast on neo ;-). |
| 00:11.16 | *** join/#openmoko DukeOfURL (n=chatzill@vc7-1-39.dsl.netrack.net) |
| 00:11.17 | TobiX | Yes, only 8 megs RAM, totally sucks. Awfully slow with Kernel XIP from Flash and RAM totally full with Kernel loaded to RAM... |
| 00:12.20 | *** join/#openmoko jebba (n=jebba@220-179-89-200.fibertel.com.ar) |
| 00:12.22 | pavelm-goingtosl | tobix: Ouch. If you managed to get palmos running there.. maybe it would improve its usability :-) |
| 00:12.52 | pavelm-goingtosl | tobix: Would like to see agenda some day. Its really grand-grand-father of pretty much every linux pda. |
| 00:13.16 | TobiX | pavelm-goingtosl: But PalmOS is closed... On the other hand I have a Palm m505 as a "real" PDA here... |
| 00:13.58 | pavelm-goingtosl | tobix: aha... (That palmos was pretty much joke) |
| 00:14.02 | *** join/#openmoko orion_ (n=orion@203-206-109-183.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 00:14.13 | SpeedEvil | PalmOS got much right. |
| 00:14.25 | pavelm-goingtosl | tobix: Does agenda have some halfway-reasonable productivity apps? |
| 00:14.32 | pavelm-goingtosl | tobix: Calendar/contacts/notes? |
| 00:15.32 | TobiX | pavelm-goingtosl: Yes, they are there. It can even rotate the screen, if only by restarting the X server ;) |
| 00:15.43 | pavelm-goingtosl | tobix: It has X server? |
| 00:16.07 | pavelm-goingtosl | tobix: wow. Someone should port them to openmoko |
| 00:16.15 | pavelm-goingtosl | ...anyway, I have to sleep now. Good night. |
| 00:16.17 | TobiX | pavelm-goingtosl: Yeah, the Tools are all written in fltk... |
| 00:25.00 | Elrond | Good night people. |
| 00:27.02 | *** join/#openmoko loufoque (n=loufoque@smj33-1-82-233-64-48.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 00:45.12 | *** join/#openmoko ping_tu (n=ping_tt2@61.185.246.242) |
| 00:51.10 | *** join/#openmoko cworth (n=cworth@c-67-160-161-141.hsd1.or.comcast.net) |
| 01:06.56 | *** join/#openmoko jsgotangco (n=jsg123@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco) |
| 01:16.41 | *** join/#openmoko danilos (n=danilo@adsl-236-193.eunet.yu) |
| 01:21.10 | *** join/#openmoko gabaug (n=gabe@207-229-164-50.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.cable.rcn.com) |
| 01:21.24 | *** join/#openmoko rejo1 (n=rejon@rrcs-71-42-148-130.sw.biz.rr.com) |
| 01:21.54 | *** join/#openmoko lincman (n=LINCMAN@adsl-216-102-232-14.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net) |
| 01:22.31 | *** part/#openmoko rejo1 (n=rejon@rrcs-71-42-148-130.sw.biz.rr.com) |
| 01:22.31 | *** join/#openmoko fralef (n=fralef@dsl-147-177.aei.ca) |
| 01:22.56 | lincman | evening all |
| 01:25.47 | *** join/#openmoko behdad (n=behdad@CPE0014bf4b2f0e-CM0011e6c3f3e9.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 01:26.26 | ping_tu | hello everyone |
| 01:26.32 | ping_tu | binutils-2.14.90.0.6-r0/binutils-2.14.90.0.6/libiberty/regex.c:132: error: previous declaration of `malloc' |
| 01:26.43 | ping_tu | anyone meet before |
| 01:26.44 | lincman | hello |
| 01:31.39 | *** join/#openmoko jaebird (n=jae@53-89.netblk-69-41-89.coolaccess.net) |
| 01:37.43 | roh | NOTE: package glibc-2.5-r5: task do_install: started |
| 01:38.08 | roh | *wait* ... somehow the buildsys doesn't really bring this machine to its knees |
| 01:50.59 | *** join/#openmoko jacobfan (n=jacob@221.223.218.226) |
| 01:51.25 | *** join/#openmoko jipi (n=jipi@mnc08.mei.co.jp) |
| 02:04.00 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@dsl093-060-111.pit1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 02:06.56 | *** join/#openmoko slomo__ (n=slomo@pD954775A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 02:27.09 | *** join/#openmoko orospakr (n=orospakr@bas11-ottawa23-1088839898.dsl.bell.ca) |
| 02:30.40 | *** part/#openmoko lincman (n=LINCMAN@adsl-216-102-232-14.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net) |
| 02:33.08 | *** join/#openmoko DukeOfURL (n=chatzill@vc7-1-39.dsl.netrack.net) |
| 02:38.11 | *** join/#openmoko whiskeydrinker (n=shon@ool-4579a5e7.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 02:38.50 | whiskeydrinker | Does anyone here have one yet? |
| 02:38.50 | aloril | whiskeydrinker: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
| 02:39.03 | SpeedEvil | several people - not me do. |
| 02:39.15 | SpeedEvil | There artew a total of 36 with hardware outside the core team |
| 02:39.45 | DukeOfURL | Speed, don't you ever sleep? |
| 02:39.56 | SpeedEvil | I sleep at unfortunately irregular times. |
| 02:40.41 | whiskeydrinker | Hey does anyone have any video sources besides the one on youtube? |
| 02:41.15 | MacNorth | on the wiki |
| 02:41.34 | whiskeydrinker | hyperlink please? |
| 02:41.44 | MacNorth | wiki.openmoko.org |
| 02:42.10 | whiskeydrinker | no to the actual page with the video sources |
| 02:42.17 | DukeOfURL | SpeedEvil: I'm glad I didn't stay up last night waiting for the Makefile to complete... |
| 02:42.34 | MacNorth | heh, it's not that hard. if you can irc, you can read :) |
| 02:43.13 | whiskeydrinker | Thanks :) |
| 02:43.15 | loufoque | whiskeydrinker: click on "videos" |
| 02:45.05 | whiskeydrinker | Thanks loufoque |
| 02:46.02 | whiskeydrinker | I hope openmoko can support active sync for the exchange server |
| 02:47.06 | SpeedEvil | It's pretty irrelevant at this stage. |
| 02:47.21 | SpeedEvil | You're asking where the plane will fly to before it's been built. |
| 02:47.48 | SpeedEvil | It is possible to submit feature requests on the wiki though. |
| 02:48.00 | SpeedEvil | DukeOfURL: how long? |
| 02:48.47 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03werner * r1381 10/trunk/src/host/devirginator/ (openocd.in setup.sh): |
| 02:48.47 | CIA-7 | openmoko: setup.sh: pass USB ID cleanly |
| 02:48.47 | CIA-7 | openmoko: openocd.in: increased wait_halt timeout from 300 sec to 500 sec (ouch !) |
| 02:48.56 | DukeOfURL | SpeedEvil: At least 12 hours on an old Athlon i386 system. It wouldn't work on the super duper Opteron X86_64. |
| 02:49.38 | DukeOfURL | where can I find the file with the image? what is file OE.mtn? |
| 02:50.16 | whiskeydrinker | Are any of you guys here system admins? |
| 02:50.25 | SpeedEvil | i3? |
| 02:51.03 | SpeedEvil | I thought AMD started out with i486 compatible chips. |
| 02:51.56 | *** part/#openmoko whiskeydrinker (n=shon@ool-4579a5e7.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 02:52.00 | rwhitby | DukeOfURL: build/tmp/deploy/images, monotone database |
| 02:52.40 | DukeOfURL | rwhitby: How will the Neo find this? Does u-boot use tftp? |
| 02:53.16 | rwhitby | DukeOfURL: dfu-util |
| 02:53.40 | rwhitby | (or you can use tftp from u-boot if you want to do it the hard way) |
| 02:54.33 | DukeOfURL | rwhitby: I'll have to research dfu-util. Thanks. |
| 02:56.22 | DukeOfURL | rwhitby: Always something new. I bought an Embedded Linux book today, but it doesn't talk about OpenEmbedded :-( |
| 02:56.31 | *** join/#openmoko koen|recife (n=koen@201.38.11.131) |
| 02:57.19 | DukeOfURL | rwhitby: the other day you said the GUI was the stumbling block? What are the problems with the GUI? |
| 02:57.47 | loufoque | DukeOfURL: the theme sucks |
| 02:58.33 | rwhitby | DukeOfURL: I don't remember saying anything about that. I haven't even looked at the GUI yet. |
| 02:59.05 | rwhitby | (remember, my neo is sitting in a test rig which is usually between 10metres and 15km away from me) |
| 02:59.09 | DukeOfURL | Someone was talking about the core developer group and the problems they had. |
| 02:59.50 | DukeOfURL | 15Km is a long way |
| 02:59.58 | DukeOfURL | km |
| 03:00.18 | rwhitby | that's when I'm at home, and the neo is still in the test rig at work. |
| 03:00.35 | DukeOfURL | I sure would like to experience the look and feel of the finger GUI. |
| 03:00.36 | rwhitby | (I can still reflash it from bare metal from that distance) |
| 03:00.53 | *** join/#openmoko eikonos (n=eikonos@S01060020ed569ad7.gv.shawcable.net) |
| 03:01.18 | DukeOfURL | would an application developer ever need to reflash u-boot? |
| 03:03.12 | rwhitby | well I did, to fix the 64M bug |
| 03:04.23 | *** join/#openmoko dullard_ (n=jim@adsl-static-1-30.uklinux.net) |
| 03:04.44 | DukeOfURL | so can I try your Makefile on my x86_64 now? |
| 03:05.57 | DukeOfURL | sorry, you said 64M bug. I misread that. |
| 03:07.50 | MacNorth | 15k, that's like a ride from brunswick to st kilda |
| 03:09.10 | DukeOfURL | why are the development images so large? 25MB? |
| 03:10.06 | DukeOfURL | or is that the root file system? |
| 03:16.22 | DukeOfURL | how long does it take to flash the kernel? |
| 03:16.34 | cjb | DukeOfURL: yes, rootfs. |
| 03:17.09 | aloril | wiki RecentChanges: [[Bootloader]] [[WiFi_support_in_OpenMoko]] [[User:Cezz]] [[Translation]] [[Manually_using_GSM]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Getting_Openmoko_working_on_host_with_Xoo]] [[Main_Page]] [[FAQ/de]] |
| 03:24.19 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03zhiyong_sun * r1382 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-taskmanager/src/ (12 files): delete '^M' |
| 03:26.18 | *** join/#openmoko ajturner (n=ajturner@c-68-42-68-205.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) |
| 03:26.48 | *** join/#openmoko libervisco (n=libervis@tuxhacker/libervis) |
| 03:31.45 | MacNorth | heh, pesky CRLFs |
| 03:31.52 | aloril | libervisco: btw.. IMHO, you can paste url here every time you have new content (or again if it answers some question) |
| 03:31.59 | *** join/#openmoko dilinger (n=dilinger@c-66-30-202-112.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 03:35.43 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@dsl093-060-111.pit1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 03:36.22 | *** join/#openmoko eikonos (n=eikonos@S01060020ed569ad7.gv.shawcable.net) |
| 03:40.28 | *** join/#openmoko stryderjzw (n=stryderj@216.232.85.137) |
| 03:41.40 | libervisco | aloril, thanks |
| 03:47.09 | aloril | libervisco: what I meant is that repeatedly pasting same content without any useful reason, but of course this is obvious to you ;-) |
| 03:47.23 | *** join/#openmoko mrlua (n=typn@unaffiliated/chairuou) |
| 03:48.28 | libervisco | of course |
| 03:48.30 | libervisco | :) |
| 03:49.43 | aloril | "Harald said that the Phase 1+ hardware will probably include an upgrade to 1GB on-board flash." http://sicherheitsschwankung.de/post/jan/2007-03-15/openmoko-chaosradio-express-german ( updated [[Neo1973]] |
| 03:50.58 | libervisco | that's great to hear :) |
| 03:51.20 | libervisco | I intend to buy probably this summer.. can't before unfortunately... |
| 03:51.33 | libervisco | the mass version after September at the latest |
| 03:54.05 | *** join/#openmoko Tv (n=tv@207.181.6.2) |
| 04:04.54 | *** join/#openmoko msroest (n=msroest@S01060040f41dad58.cg.shawcable.net) |
| 04:29.53 | *** join/#openmoko mrlua (n=typn@unaffiliated/chairuou) |
| 04:37.01 | *** join/#openmoko nm (n=hongtd@58.187.131.148) |
| 04:48.59 | *** join/#openmoko tg (i=tg@2001:618:1a23:0:0:0:0:1) |
| 04:49.29 | *** join/#openmoko tg (i=tg@x-net.hu) |
| 04:53.21 | *** join/#openmoko mrlua (n=typn@unaffiliated/chairuou) |
| 04:56.46 | *** join/#openmoko Zoolooc__ (n=Zoolooc@p54951f4e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 05:01.05 | aloril | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: 2 weeks, 2 days 06:59:01 (16.291 +-7.0 days) (see faq) |
| 05:01.27 | aloril | later reply to yesterday counter request ;-) |
| 05:01.28 | *** join/#openmoko _ASK (n=chatzill@189.146.153.96) |
| 05:01.44 | _ASK | hi guys |
| 05:01.44 | aloril | hi _ASK |
| 05:02.05 | _ASK | can you give me opinions on this http://mikemex.t35.com/phone/teclado2.png |
| 05:03.17 | _ASK | it's a concept phone; uses a single finger (thumb) optimized keyboard; it's also optimized for slim profile |
| 05:04.50 | Agrajag- | keys look too small (especially for use with your thumb), too many buttons, key order would take some time to get used to |
| 05:05.44 | _ASK | well, it's just a "draft" |
| 05:05.54 | _ASK | i will make a 3D model in autocad later |
| 05:06.24 | _ASK | keys are prism shaped, so even if they look too close, there is plenty of tactical feedback |
| 05:10.00 | jipi | counter |
| 05:10.01 | aloril | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: 2 weeks, 2 days 06:49:58 (16.285 +-7.0 days) (549) |
| 05:10.42 | _ASK | the size of that "phone" is 50x100 mm |
| 05:13.24 | *** join/#openmoko dilinger (n=dilinger@c-66-30-202-112.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 05:14.24 | *** join/#openmoko mrlua (n=typn@unaffiliated/chairuou) |
| 05:17.56 | _ASK | as for the key number, a treo phone has 41 keys and this one 43 |
| 05:18.08 | _ASK | about the same, just arranged differently |
| 05:18.42 | _ASK | the key order is optimized for reduced finger movement |
| 05:19.09 | _ASK | most common keys are in the center, with the most associated keys (bigrams) nerby |
| 05:23.13 | *** join/#openmoko Marex (n=Marex@85.132.236.161) |
| 05:30.26 | Agrajag- | i don't think a phone should need nearly that many keys, just because another phone has 41, that doesn't make it ok |
| 05:30.44 | _ASK | it's a full keyboard |
| 05:31.19 | _ASK | with a phone which is a small computer already |
| 05:31.26 | _ASK | it's needed a decent keyboard |
| 05:31.36 | Agrajag- | and i personally wouldn't want my keys arranged like that |
| 05:33.04 | _ASK | input devices and ergonomics are the first considerations when designing a phone |
| 05:33.04 | _ASK | why not? |
| 05:33.06 | Agrajag- | im already used to the way a qwerty keyboard is arranged, and used to hwo they are arrange on my normal phone. i don't really see the use of a full keyboard on a phone |
| 05:34.05 | _ASK | have you used both? a phone with a full keyboard (like the treo) and a phone without buttons like the neo? |
| 05:34.53 | _ASK | i find it troublesome to type directly on the screen and to use the stylus i need both hands |
| 05:36.42 | _ASK | besides, that design is even smaller than the neo and doesn't sacrifice much, screen is 2.6, the smallest VGA size available |
| 05:37.27 | _ASK | five way control is also quite useful and accurate |
| 06:10.06 | *** join/#openmoko _law_ (n=law@mail.stiftadmont.at) |
| 06:37.28 | *** join/#openmoko friedel (n=fwolff@dsl-242-218-21.telkomadsl.co.za) |
| 06:38.29 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03zhiyong_sun * r1383 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-taskmanager/src/list_view.c: bug fixed: list_view.c::moko_add_window:pixbuf pointer free error |
| 06:47.06 | aloril | (script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz <sean at openmoko.com> Re: Crossroads |
| 06:48.20 | *** join/#openmoko TarasBulba (n=gorkem@uekae-subnet-out.ume.tubitak.gov.tr) |
| 06:51.34 | *** join/#openmoko pH5 (n=ph5@e178201107.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 06:53.43 | *** join/#openmoko denis^da (n=denis@p54928A70.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 07:16.29 | *** join/#openmoko mrlua (n=typn@unaffiliated/chairuou) |
| 07:28.54 | _ASK | nice, i've finished the curved layout... |
| 07:29.07 | *** join/#openmoko zween (n=zween@80-47-43-169.lond-hex.dynamic.dial.as9105.com) |
| 07:30.47 | CM | Wow, EABI looks nice :) |
| 07:32.01 | _ASK | http://mikemex.t35.com/phone/telefono.png |
| 07:32.49 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03zhiyong_sun * r1384 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-taskmanager/src/ (callbacks.c xatoms.c xatoms.h): small modify |
| 07:36.13 | *** join/#openmoko _ASK_ (n=chatzill@189.146.153.96) |
| 07:36.48 | *** join/#openmoko tr2x (n=alvar@80-218-185-55.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 07:37.51 | *** join/#openmoko buz (n=buz@80-218-148-33.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 07:41.16 | *** join/#openmoko terrex (n=terrex@84.122.65.39.dyn.user.ono.com) |
| 07:43.20 | aevin | i think i would like some kind of almost fullscreen overlay keyboard in horizontal view to type with the thumbs, perhaps... |
| 07:43.50 | aevin | at least a non-stylus keyboard alternative should be present, i think. |
| 07:43.55 | aevin | we'l see. |
| 07:44.00 | aevin | *'ll |
| 07:49.02 | *** join/#openmoko greentux (n=lemke@Z5672.z.pppool.de) |
| 07:52.44 | _ASK | have you seen my design? |
| 07:53.24 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Press_Coverage]] |
| 07:53.29 | _ASK | overlay are the worse of the worse |
| 07:53.55 | _ASK | when you're typing you get confused between the overlay and what's below |
| 07:58.50 | aevin | _ASK: yes, i had a look. |
| 07:59.14 | aevin | the buttons looked a bit tiny. it's meant to use a stylus with it, or what? |
| 08:00.26 | *** join/#openmoko dullard_ (n=jim@adsl-static-1-30.uklinux.net) |
| 08:00.28 | _ASK | no, your thumb |
| 08:00.29 | aevin | _ASK: i know you might get confused, but i think it could be managable for the hardcore people ;-) |
| 08:00.39 | aevin | oh, okay. *have another look* |
| 08:00.49 | _ASK | keys aren't that small |
| 08:01.03 | _ASK | at least, compared to most full keyboards |
| 08:01.10 | *** join/#openmoko Magon (n=Magon@vpn-friends.ms.mff.cuni.cz) |
| 08:01.31 | _ASK | also, it's for a decent sized phone (50mm thick) |
| 08:01.37 | aevin | you plan this for the Neo1973, right? |
| 08:01.53 | _ASK | for the next generation neo, yes |
| 08:03.03 | _ASK | it's a "hardware" keyboard, not on screen |
| 08:03.08 | aevin | aha. |
| 08:03.38 | aevin | i thought it was an on-screen keyboard for the 2.8" VGA touchscreen of Neo1973. |
| 08:04.57 | _ASK | could be |
| 08:05.15 | _ASK | i've spent quite a bit of time refining the layout |
| 08:05.54 | _ASK | just remove the upper part of the keyboard and could serve as on-screen |
| 08:06.24 | aloril | (script) openmoko-devel: "Michael 'Mickey' Lauer" <mickey at openmoko.org> Re: [oe] Why EABI matters |
| 08:06.36 | *** join/#openmoko mrlua (n=typn@unaffiliated/chairuou) |
| 08:08.26 | buz | _ASK: where's that design of yours? |
| 08:08.50 | _ASK | http://mikemex.t35.com/phone/telefono.png |
| 08:10.03 | buz | looks a lot like blackberry pearl |
| 08:10.03 | _ASK | http://mikemex.t35.com/phone/teclado2.png (hand drawn draft, with letters and symbols) |
| 08:10.27 | *** join/#openmoko Teeli (n=tili@cm109.gamma248.maxonline.com.sg) |
| 08:10.34 | _ASK | well, it's one key per letter, with optimized layour for reduced finger movement |
| 08:10.45 | buz | there's one thing i dont understand: why are the key lines bent towards you |
| 08:10.57 | buz | wouldnt it be easier to bend them away from you |
| 08:11.02 | _ASK | ah, that's an ergonomic decision |
| 08:11.10 | _ASK | it's a keyboard for thumb |
| 08:11.24 | _ASK | tumb has an axis of movement that moves in that direction |
| 08:11.25 | buz | assuming your thumb comes from mid-below |
| 08:11.40 | _ASK | yes, center of the keyboard is lower than sides |
| 08:11.50 | _ASK | because of the radious |
| 08:12.03 | buz | but wouldnt it exactly the other side |
| 08:12.22 | _ASK | well, it's supposed to be capable of be used both hands also |
| 08:12.24 | aevin | rwhitby: please have a look at build error, when you get the time... http://rafb.net/p/ztP76197.html |
| 08:12.27 | _ASK | but still thumbs |
| 08:12.40 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03mickey * r1385 10/trunk/oe/packages/openmoko-pim/files/ (4 files): |
| 08:12.40 | CIA-7 | openmoko: oe/openmoko-pim: add files from OE upstream to make it build again |
| 08:12.40 | CIA-7 | openmoko: NOTE: please guys, test compiling before adding recipes overloading OE ones to our buildserver |
| 08:12.45 | *** join/#openmoko Dodji (n=dodji@torimasen.com) |
| 08:12.51 | _ASK | also, it's for left and right handed people |
| 08:14.08 | aevin | i need some sleep. see you later, _ASK. |
| 08:14.17 | _ASK | have a good rest |
| 08:16.14 | rwhitby | aevin: try a newer gcc on your build host |
| 08:16.30 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03alex_tang * r1386 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-messages/src/main.c: |
| 08:16.30 | CIA-7 | openmoko: Remove the ugly code for Ken has make it by configure in .desktop file. |
| 08:16.30 | CIA-7 | openmoko: Use strcasestr instead of in_string. |
| 08:21.14 | *** join/#openmoko greghunt (n=greg@88-108-112-56.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) |
| 08:38.20 | *** join/#openmoko greentux (n=lemke@ip-217-18-181-130.static.reverse.dsi.net) |
| 08:38.26 | mickeyl | morning greentux |
| 08:38.28 | mickeyl | how are things? |
| 08:38.54 | greentux | mickeyl: morning. |
| 08:39.05 | greentux | mickeyl: nice, much todo. waiting for phase 1 :) |
| 08:39.19 | mickeyl | *nod* :) |
| 08:39.36 | CM | Any rumors of how it's going with the hw? |
| 08:39.50 | mickeyl | heh |
| 08:40.00 | mickeyl | you want me to turn the rumour wheel? :) |
| 08:40.02 | CM | Haven't heard anything about huge delays at least.. *cross fingers* |
| 08:40.13 | CM | mickeyl: Of course I do ;) |
| 08:40.30 | mickeyl | LaF0rge and werner are flying to Taiwan today |
| 08:40.52 | mickeyl | trying to get BV4 (what ships in p1) into shape |
| 08:41.11 | CM | Ok, sounds good. :) |
| 08:41.24 | aloril | (script) openmoko-community: "Michael 'Mickey' Lauer" <mickey at openmoko.org> Re: Google SoC, To-Do |
| 08:41.35 | mickeyl | we have an unpleasent number of p0 devices with a dead gsm |
| 08:41.48 | mickeyl | but that is most likely due to the manufacturing plant, not the design |
| 08:42.14 | mickeyl | so i'm confident that the guys will come back w/ some good news in one week |
| 08:42.21 | mickeyl | <--- optimist |
| 08:42.22 | mickeyl | :) |
| 08:42.26 | CM | It it that hard to test that the chip is even wroking? |
| 08:42.32 | mickeyl | *cough* |
| 08:42.33 | mickeyl | no |
| 08:42.34 | mickeyl | supereasy |
| 08:42.38 | mickeyl | 4 commands :/ |
| 08:42.49 | CM | That's what I thought.. |
| 08:43.41 | CM | I have a friend doing RF design for Nokia, and he complains a lit about their Chinese factories.. "Never any QA!" ;) |
| 08:43.54 | CM | /s/lit/lot/ |
| 08:44.03 | mickeyl | ya, sounds familiar |
| 08:44.51 | so_solid_moo | mickeyl: do you think all fic production goes like this? |
| 08:45.04 | mickeyl | no |
| 08:45.18 | mickeyl | there's a) a number of hw teams in FIC |
| 08:45.23 | mickeyl | and b) a number of manuf. plants |
| 08:45.31 | mickeyl | we had a bit of trouble with both a) and b) |
| 08:45.36 | mickeyl | and we will switch |
| 08:45.44 | CM | Maybe they use this certification: http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000818.html |
| 08:46.02 | mickeyl | FIC has a whole lot of good engineers |
| 08:46.12 | mickeyl | we just need to get them into our hw team |
| 08:46.19 | mickeyl | which is tough |
| 08:46.23 | mickeyl | company politics |
| 08:46.24 | mickeyl | *cough* |
| 08:46.27 | so_solid_moo | heh |
| 08:46.30 | *** join/#openmoko pvanhoof (n=pvanhoof@d54C0EE14.access.telenet.be) |
| 08:46.37 | CM | No suprise there.. |
| 08:46.50 | mickeyl | morning XorA! |
| 08:46.55 | XorA | yo Dr mickeyl |
| 08:47.01 | mickeyl | heh, works-on-my-machine. cool sticker |
| 08:47.19 | CM | I hope the management gets that this phone can be a really big thing |
| 08:47.41 | mickeyl | ya, they still don't grok the impact 100%, but it's on its way |
| 08:47.49 | mickeyl | it would help if we got working hardware *cough* |
| 08:47.55 | CM | Hehe |
| 08:48.23 | XorA | We have a dream........ |
| 08:48.29 | mickeyl | no seriously, once we have a solid hw base and see all these ideas being realized, the situation will be much better |
| 08:48.33 | *** join/#openmoko ebbe (n=ebbe@130.226.173.22) |
| 08:48.54 | *** join/#openmoko TarasBulba (n=gorkem@193.140.134.1) |
| 08:48.57 | mickeyl | and there's no point starting w/ new hw designs with this team until we have a solid first iteration |
| 08:49.03 | *** join/#openmoko antenagora (n=antenago@147.162.137.243) |
| 08:49.36 | mickeyl | mmh |
| 08:49.38 | CM | It's always easy to try and do too much at once |
| 08:49.38 | mickeyl | DHL |
| 08:49.44 | mickeyl | ya, it's tempting |
| 08:50.03 | pvanhoof | oh, hey mickeyl |
| 08:50.25 | pvanhoof | What did Sean mean with 'talking with O-Hand'? mickeyl |
| 08:50.37 | mickeyl | cheers pvanhoof, sorry for not responding to your mail yet, but it's been ... well, busy would be belitteling |
| 08:50.47 | pvanhoof | yes I completely understand :) |
| 08:50.51 | pvanhoof | don't worry |
| 08:51.38 | pvanhoof | Are you online in a few hours? I have an appointment with my accountant in a few minutes too :) |
| 08:51.55 | mickeyl | unfortunately not, i'm travelling to Düsseldorf today for a meeting :/ |
| 08:52.05 | pvanhoof | okay, no problem :) |
| 08:52.06 | mickeyl | lets talk when I'm back on weekend, yaß |
| 08:52.07 | mickeyl | ? |
| 08:52.11 | pvanhoof | Sure |
| 08:52.12 | mickeyl | ok, cool |
| 08:52.19 | pvanhoof | Or over mail |
| 08:52.23 | mickeyl | yep. |
| 08:52.29 | pvanhoof | No hurry etc :) |
| 08:52.41 | pvanhoof | have fun |
| 08:52.44 | pvanhoof | poor busy guys :) |
| 08:52.47 | CM | mickeyl: Shipping yourself as an express package? ;) |
| 08:52.49 | mickeyl | ya, it's a bit crazy |
| 08:52.52 | mickeyl | CM: heheheh |
| 08:52.54 | pvanhoof | and it aint going to get better |
| 08:52.54 | mickeyl | what a concept |
| 08:52.59 | pvanhoof | :-) |
| 08:53.23 | mickeyl | CM: no, actually Taiwan shipped me a P0 phone to show off at some Zaurus user group meeting later today |
| 08:53.35 | mickeyl | poor mickey still has a pre-p0 lollypop phone |
| 08:53.37 | mickeyl | ;) |
| 08:54.03 | mickeyl | i'm leaving in a couple of hours and hope DHL will make it in time |
| 08:54.33 | XorA | mickeyl: quick spray it black |
| 08:54.39 | mickeyl | hehe, yeah |
| 08:54.54 | XorA | case us nucer in P0 though, feels more solid |
| 08:54.57 | XorA | is nicer |
| 08:55.07 | mickeyl | i'm actually quite surprised how much of a difference the color and the finish can make |
| 08:55.22 | mickeyl | even your pre-p0 felt better |
| 08:55.36 | XorA | mickeyl: oh, I thought it was same case you had |
| 08:55.44 | mickeyl | no, you already have the one with the slight rubber feel |
| 08:55.49 | mickeyl | mine's totally plastic-feel |
| 08:55.57 | *** join/#openmoko bezlemin (n=bezlemin@cpe-72-179-41-19.austin.res.rr.com) |
| 08:56.07 | mickeyl | and mine even lacks the product name :) |
| 08:56.14 | mickeyl | just some case manufacturer name |
| 08:56.14 | XorA | mine says nomad |
| 08:56.27 | *** join/#openmoko jsgotangco (n=jsg123@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco) |
| 08:56.31 | mickeyl | oh |
| 08:56.36 | mickeyl | so you have the same one, right |
| 08:56.40 | XorA | you thinking of seans phone? |
| 08:56.44 | mickeyl | ya, sean's |
| 08:56.47 | mickeyl | right |
| 08:57.10 | XorA | mine doesnt even have screws :-) |
| 08:57.17 | mickeyl | hehe |
| 08:57.44 | XorA | wise plan I shall fill mine as well |
| 09:00.05 | *** join/#openmoko mikesh (n=mikesh@feldconf.feld.cvut.cz) |
| 09:00.13 | mickeyl | yeah |
| 09:00.55 | CM | I don't even care much about calling from the start.. I want to play mp3's on it ;) |
| 09:01.17 | mickeyl | sounds good. i can confirm this is already working ;) |
| 09:01.38 | mickeyl | i didn't manage to play ogg yet |
| 09:01.38 | CM | The only thing I worry about losing on a phone is the contact information |
| 09:01.43 | mickeyl | but that's due to the FP-codec |
| 09:01.52 | CM | How is that going to be stored when you re-flash it? |
| 09:02.24 | CM | Have to be some kind of easy back up of that. Another goal of mine for sure |
| 09:02.25 | mickeyl | CM: personally, i would suggest writing contacts only to SD |
| 09:02.47 | mickeyl | even if that means you _need_ an SD to operate the phone |
| 09:02.49 | CM | That's what I was thinking too. What format is the db? |
| 09:03.00 | guaqua | mickeyl: i was thinking about a good backup method too |
| 09:03.02 | mickeyl | evolution, so berkely IIRC |
| 09:03.06 | CM | Ok |
| 09:03.21 | mickeyl | guaqua,CM: ya, a really good backup app is a challenge |
| 09:03.24 | guaqua | how are sms messages stores? |
| 09:03.27 | guaqua | stored i mean |
| 09:03.31 | *** join/#openmoko TeringTuby (n=maarten@55-100-dyn.ipact.nl) |
| 09:03.46 | mickeyl | sms support is not there yet |
| 09:03.58 | guaqua | are there any plans? |
| 09:03.59 | mickeyl | i hope we can (ab)use the evolution db for that as well |
| 09:04.06 | mickeyl | i'm not too fond of different data storage solutions |
| 09:04.21 | mickeyl | absolutely, sms is on the agenda, some guys in taiwan are working on it |
| 09:04.22 | guaqua | i'd actually be fond of pure text files, but that's just me |
| 09:04.27 | CM | *nod* Just adds more dependencis and complexity |
| 09:04.40 | CM | I mean multiple dbs |
| 09:04.44 | mickeyl | my idea was to stuff everything into the evo db |
| 09:04.44 | guaqua | ;= |
| 09:04.51 | mickeyl | i'm not sure yet whether we can do that |
| 09:04.54 | mickeyl | but it looks good so far |
| 09:04.54 | *** join/#openmoko Any_Key (n=Any_Key@sedova.highlink.ru) |
| 09:05.09 | mickeyl | the concept of a filesystem really is a technical one |
| 09:05.18 | XorA | mickeyl: mplayer has fixed point codec for ogg |
| 09:05.31 | guaqua | as long as there is a centralized way that actually works and is easy to implement stuff on, i'm happy with that |
| 09:05.43 | mickeyl | XorA: ah, good, i need to try that. vorbis is using 100% without tremor |
| 09:05.54 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03caowai_song * r1387 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-appmanager/src/ (detail-area.c tool-box.c): Remove the warnning in tool-box.c and detail-area.c. |
| 09:05.54 | guaqua | but that's not as easy equation it sounds :) |
| 09:06.23 | XorA | extend tinymail to work with SMS store as well |
| 09:06.46 | mickeyl | guaqua: *nod* top goal is having _one_ _consistent _ way of dealing with PIM data. We really want to discourage parallel storage models since they don't allow for cross-referencing and increase backup complexity |
| 09:06.53 | XorA | Ive got a good mail client on WinCE that treats SMS the same as email and it works nicely |
| 09:06.58 | guaqua | true |
| 09:07.34 | guaqua | i was also thinking about backup as not only in neo -> computer, but neo -> usb drive |
| 09:07.49 | guaqua | maybe webdav also |
| 09:07.52 | mickeyl | yeah |
| 09:07.57 | mickeyl | multiple backup "sinks" |
| 09:09.05 | guaqua | with computer backup you have to implement the computer side too, with these others we would only need special stuff on the OS side |
| 09:11.52 | mickey|bbl | cu l8er, need to pack |
| 09:12.28 | pH5 | XorA: what is the fixed point ogg decoder in mplayer? playing 192k .oggs with mplayer/ffvorbis eats 95% cpu |
| 09:13.28 | XorA | pH5: tremor |
| 09:13.47 | XorA | pH5: dont use ffvorbis |
| 09:14.00 | XorA | pH5: thats ffmpeg using a floating point codec |
| 09:14.22 | XorA | pH5: I think the codec you want is actually just called vorbis |
| 09:15.06 | buz | i think it's actually quite impressive that it can run fp based oggs at 192k |
| 09:15.18 | buz | does it stutter? |
| 09:16.04 | pH5 | buz: when loading from flash/sd, yes. just playing from memory is fine. |
| 09:16.34 | buz | with 128mb ram you could likely cache to memory easily |
| 09:16.35 | pH5 | XorA: thanks, with -ac vorbis it uses 23-24% cpu |
| 09:16.57 | buz | has anybody tried 320kbit mp3? |
| 09:18.27 | XorA | ~lart me for not being a student and not being able to apply for OpenMoko SoC |
| 09:19.09 | buz | apt doesnt seem to understand self references ;) |
| 09:19.26 | XorA | pH5: bonus points if you know how to turn off ffvorbis on ARM targets as I get that question lots |
| 09:20.06 | pH5 | XorA: yeah, I was just about to ask ;) |
| 09:22.16 | XorA | --disable-decoder=DECODER |
| 09:22.23 | XorA | looks promising |
| 09:23.00 | pH5 | EXTRA_OECONF_append_arm = " --disable-decoder=ffvorbis" ? |
| 09:23.20 | XorA | pH5: looks like that would do it, are you in position to try, I dont have my zaurus today |
| 09:24.21 | XorA | --disable-decoder=oggvorbis I think is the right way |
| 09:24.58 | pH5 | XorA: ok, I'll try |
| 09:26.25 | XorA | _libavdecoders=`grep 'register_avcodec(&[a-z0-9_]*_decoder)' libavcodec/allcodecs.c | sed 's/.*&\(.*\)).*/\1/'` is how the codecs are found |
| 09:26.31 | XorA | nasty |
| 09:27.13 | *** join/#openmoko jzs (n=jzs@217.116.232.184) |
| 09:31.54 | *** join/#openmoko wbx (n=wbx@213.23.202.22) |
| 09:36.18 | pH5 | hm.. that didn't do the trick. |
| 09:36.22 | pH5 | root@fic-gta01:~$ mplayer -ac help | grep ffvorbis |
| 09:36.26 | pH5 | ffvorbis ffmpeg working FFmpeg Vorbis decoder [vorbis] |
| 09:41.58 | XorA | pH5: -ac help always lists all possible codecs even if they arent built in |
| 09:42.51 | pH5 | XorA: Strange. But it is selected to play my ogg files, too. |
| 09:43.00 | XorA | arse |
| 09:44.48 | XorA | ah wait, that sed doesnt strip the _decoder bit |
| 09:45.01 | XorA | oggvorbis_decoder vorbis_decoder both come out of it |
| 09:47.01 | XorA | looking again I think it might be the --disable-decoder=vorbis_decoder |
| 09:48.32 | *** join/#openmoko atla (n=atla@p3EE3D298.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 09:48.33 | pH5 | XorA: oggvorbis_decoder, rather. I'll try again. |
| 09:49.00 | XorA | pH5: oggvorbis uses libvorbis which I think we already disable |
| 09:55.54 | pH5 | You are right, of course. --disable-decoder=oggvorbis_decoder has no effect. |
| 09:56.04 | pH5 | But vorbis_decoder has: http://en.pastebin.ca/397183 |
| 09:56.17 | XorA | libavcodec/libavcodec.a(vorbis_enc.o): In function `cb_lookup_vals': |
| 09:56.17 | XorA | | /home/gg/zaurus/moko/build/tmp/work/armv4t-linux/mplayer-0.0+1.0rc1-r8/MPlayer-1.0rc1/libavcodec/vorbis_enc.c:177: undefined reference to `ff_vorbis_nth_root'| libavcodec/libavcodec.a(vorbis_enc.o): In function `ready_codebook': |
| 09:56.18 | XorA | shit |
| 09:57.24 | pH5 | so just disable vorbis_encoder, too? |
| 09:57.31 | XorA | pH5: what Im trying |
| 09:59.34 | XorA | NOTE: package mplayer-0.0+1.0rc1: completed |
| 09:59.58 | pH5 | hm, hm.. very good, that should be it. |
| 10:02.10 | pH5 | yes! |
| 10:02.15 | pH5 | Forced audio codec: ffvorbis |
| 10:02.18 | pH5 | Cannot find codec 'vorbis' in libavcodec... |
| 10:02.39 | XorA | bastards |
| 10:03.00 | pH5 | no, that's my fault (-ac ffvorbis). without -ac it uses vorbis just fine. |
| 10:05.45 | *** join/#openmoko sureshkumar (n=suresh@196.12.43.162) |
| 10:06.24 | sureshkumar | Hi all, can anyone help me with the information of the release of OpenMoko scheduled in March 2007? |
| 10:06.32 | XorA | pH5: yay |
| 10:06.53 | XorA | pH5: cheers for doing that |
| 10:07.12 | sureshkumar | I had put the same query yesterday, but unfortunately I had missed out the responses, due to the crash of my PC |
| 10:07.21 | pH5 | XorA: thanks for deciphering those mplayer config/makefiles :) |
| 10:07.35 | XorA | pH5: I got used to it over the years |
| 10:08.53 | sureshkumar | Hi all, can anyone help me with the information of the release of OpenMoko scheduled in March 2007? |
| 10:08.55 | sureshkumar | I had put the same query yesterday, but unfortunately I had missed out the responses, due to the crash of my PC |
| 10:09.09 | XorA | sureshkumar: wiki.openmoko.org |
| 10:09.19 | sureshkumar | thanx |
| 10:10.36 | *** part/#openmoko lu_zero (n=lu_zero@gentoo/developer/lu-zero) |
| 10:11.26 | *** join/#openmoko _buz (n=buz@dhcp-202-163-vpn.unizh.ch) |
| 10:12.06 | sureshkumar | XorA: I haven't find any info regarding the release dates. Can you help me with some more precised link |
| 10:12.24 | XorA | sureshkumar: thats because there isnt any |
| 10:13.59 | sureshkumar | but i remember that yesterday someone had provided me the link where I can see the information regarding the release dates |
| 10:14.14 | XorA | counter |
| 10:14.14 | aloril | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: 2 weeks, 2 days 01:45:45 (16.073 +-7.0 days) (550) |
| 10:15.46 | vmaster | in an interview on the german ccc express radio, Harald mentioned first week of april as a likely date for P1 |
| 10:16.46 | sureshkumar | ok. thanks for the info |
| 10:17.33 | sureshkumar | aloril: Can you help me in getting the counter information for the release? I mean how can I get that info "P1: 2 weeks, 2 days 01:45:45 (16.073 +-7.0 days) (550)" |
| 10:18.27 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@dsl093-060-111.pit1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 10:19.57 | jgm | Nice to see the counter have accuracy down to the second and an error bar of +/- 7 days :) |
| 10:20.33 | sureshkumar | Can you help me in getting the counter information for the release? I mean how can I get that info "P1: 2 weeks, 2 days 01:45:45 (16.073 +-7.0 days) (550)" |
| 10:22.19 | sureshkumar | Can anyone help me in getting the counter information for the release? I mean how can I get that info "P1: 2 weeks, 2 days 01:45:45 (16.073 +-7.0 days) (550)" |
| 10:22.33 | jgm | Dunno where it comes from, I'm afraid |
| 10:22.34 | *** part/#openmoko friedel (n=fwolff@dsl-242-218-21.telkomadsl.co.za) |
| 10:22.35 | so_solid_moo | sureshkumar: what do you mean? You already have the information. |
| 10:23.25 | sureshkumar | I agree that I have this information for now |
| 10:24.08 | sureshkumar | Instead of asking in this room, may be I would keep an eye on this, for verifying an delay or not. |
| 10:24.21 | *** join/#openmoko antenagora (n=antenago@147.162.137.243) |
| 10:25.10 | so_solid_moo | sureshkumar: maybe subscribe to the announce mailing list on lists.openmoko.org |
| 10:25.14 | sureshkumar | Just learning on how we can check this so that I can have an idea of these small things |
| 10:25.54 | *** part/#openmoko sureshkumar (n=suresh@196.12.43.162) |
| 10:28.39 | *** join/#openmoko jsgotangco (n=jsg123@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco) |
| 10:33.08 | *** join/#openmoko buz_ (n=buz@80-218-148-33.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 10:34.08 | *** join/#openmoko larstobi (i=larstobi@theseus.fa-s.ntnu.no) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 10:34.25 | *** join/#openmoko aevin (n=brootvor@150.80-203-127.nextgentel.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 10:36.21 | *** join/#openmoko pavelm (n=pavel@gprs189-60.eurotel.cz) |
| 10:37.19 | pavelm | Heya, everyone. |
| 10:37.30 | pavelm | I'm trying to get my own openmoko image running from SD... |
| 10:37.50 | pavelm | ...is there binary of kernel and binary of root filesystem available somewhere? |
| 10:37.55 | pavelm | ...I do not feel like compiling everything just yet... |
| 10:38.51 | *** join/#openmoko CM (i=cm@shaka.acc.umu.se) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 10:39.00 | rtp | pavelm: buildhost.openmoko.org |
| 10:46.03 | pavelm | rtp: Thanks. |
| 10:46.43 | pH5 | pavelm: or ask alphaone to share his kernel binary. I think the ones in the buildhost might not have s3cmci compiled in. |
| 10:48.09 | aloril2 | mickeylbbl: you said that P1 wll ship with tested GPS: do you mean that hardware is tested or do mean that agpsd will work? |
| 10:51.09 | pavelm | ph5: What is s3cmci? |
| 10:51.41 | pavelm | ph5: I think I'll just get it booting first, then play with different binaries. |
| 10:52.44 | pH5 | pavelm: it's the mmc/sd driver for the s3c2410's controller. |
| 10:53.24 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Booting_from_SD]] |
| 10:53.45 | alphaone | pavelm: Just a sec |
| 10:53.47 | pavelm | ph5: Ok, that sounds useful for booting from SD :-) |
| 10:54.17 | alphaone | pavelm: Yeah, it really is :-) |
| 10:55.58 | alphaone | pavelm: http://thebe.totalueberwachung.de/~alphaone/openmoko/uImage-with-sd |
| 10:57.15 | pavelm | alphaone: Thanks... (if you'd generated image with ppp support, that would be very useful, too :-) |
| 11:02.29 | *** join/#openmoko ajturner (n=ajturner@c-68-42-68-205.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) |
| 11:03.38 | pavelm | ...kernel booted -- so far so good, but then I learn that it can't switch card to high-speed mode. It detects partitions okay... but then refuses to mount it. |
| 11:04.33 | *** join/#openmoko pvanhoof (n=pvanhoof@d54C0EE14.access.telenet.be) |
| 11:04.47 | *** join/#openmoko ajturner (n=ajturner@c-68-42-68-205.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) |
| 11:05.33 | alphaone | pavelm: It is there as module |
| 11:05.42 | alphaone | I'll copy them, too |
| 11:05.53 | alphaone | hmm |
| 11:06.03 | alphaone | Never had that problem here.. |
| 11:06.20 | alphaone | pavelm: Are you using the provided SanDisk SD cars? |
| 11:06.28 | alphaone | s/rs/rd/ |
| 11:09.29 | pavelm | I guess I should check bootloader commandline. |
| 11:10.48 | pavelm | alphaone: Using provided SD card, just did mke2fs /dev/mmc1 |
| 11:12.19 | *** join/#openmoko koen|recife (n=koen@201.38.11.131) |
| 11:12.40 | pavelm | ...i wonder if I should have done mke_3_fs? |
| 11:16.13 | alphaone | pavelm: mke2fs -j |
| 11:16.14 | pavelm | yep. ext3 works, ext2 does not. |
| 11:16.42 | alphaone | pavelm: Right, ext2 is modular in the defconfig |
| 11:16.57 | alphaone | pavelm: http://thebe.totalueberwachung.de/~alphaone/openmoko/modules-2.6.20.2-moko8.tar.bz2 |
| 11:17.53 | pavelm | ...I got oops during boot, but it sems to continue. |
| 11:18.38 | alphaone | what does it say? |
| 11:19.04 | pavelm | ...it said it in _very small_ font, then scrolled away. It was initial "long" boot. |
| 11:19.51 | pavelm | uff... latest image of the day no longer includes rxvt in menu :-( |
| 11:20.24 | pH5 | hmm.. werner's "stty -F /dev/ttySAC0 crtscts" trick for bug 256 has an effect here, too. |
| 11:20.45 | pH5 | It still hangs, but now I can see the (garbled) interpreter ready message sometimes. |
| 11:21.05 | pavelm | Oops is in bluetooth. Are you interested? |
| 11:22.06 | pavelm | ...strange, openmoko dialer failed at first launch attempt, now it works? |
| 11:22.26 | pH5 | pavelm: first launch doesn't show the gui, it says that on stdout. |
| 11:22.45 | pavelm | ph5: ok.. |
| 11:23.02 | pavelm | ph5: unfortunately the dialer does not really work. |
| 11:23.18 | *** join/#openmoko zween (n=zween@80-47-43-169.lond-hex.dynamic.dial.as9105.com) |
| 11:24.30 | pH5 | pavelm: I will start to worry about that when I either find a way to communicate with the gsm modem in my p0 device or after the start of p1 :) |
| 11:25.14 | pavelm | ph5: I followed the "do the calls manually" steps, and it seems to work. |
| 11:30.32 | *** join/#openmoko atla (n=atla@p3EE3D298.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 11:31.12 | *** join/#openmoko gambler (n=orion@203-206-109-183.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 11:32.40 | *** join/#openmoko renihs (n=penguin@83-65-34-34.arsenal.xdsl-line.inode.at) |
| 11:35.13 | *** join/#openmoko MetaBookfoziS (n=sajt@dsl54007F4C.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 11:37.03 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@24.crcr10.xdsl.nauticom.net) |
| 11:43.06 | *** join/#openmoko DukeOfURL (n=chatzill@vc7-1-39.dsl.netrack.net) |
| 11:45.17 | pavelm | bye for now... will play with ppp on openmoko |
| 11:50.19 | *** join/#openmoko danilos (n=danilo@adsl-236-193.eunet.yu) |
| 11:53.24 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Manually_using_GSM]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Booting_from_SD]] |
| 11:56.42 | *** join/#openmoko l4rs (n=laprican@hsiproxy.astra-net.com) |
| 11:58.26 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (i=foobar@dslb-084-057-187-197.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 11:59.52 | *** join/#openmoko florian (n=fuchs@217.146.132.69) |
| 12:00.11 | florian | good morning |
| 12:00.22 | CM | :) |
| 12:00.32 | pH5 | hi florian |
| 12:02.43 | *** join/#openmoko abraxa_ (i=moehre@pD95FD535.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 12:05.54 | SpeedEvil | pH5: so what are the conclusions on CPU use with vorbis? |
| 12:06.15 | XorA | SpeedEvil: 23% on a 200Mhz Neo |
| 12:06.24 | SpeedEvil | Bitrate?> |
| 12:06.40 | SpeedEvil | How does that compare with mp3? |
| 12:06.42 | XorA | 160Kbits |
| 12:06.49 | XorA | SpeedEvil: about the same |
| 12:07.22 | thresh | and h264? =) |
| 12:07.38 | SpeedEvil | Be lovely if it could get to 6% - but that's probably not happening. |
| 12:08.02 | XorA | h264 wont even play on my 500Mhz px |
| 12:08.03 | XorA | a |
| 12:08.19 | XorA | linux codecs for it seem to suck just now |
| 12:08.50 | thresh | and they wont ever suck good enough on such a machinee |
| 12:08.59 | *** join/#openmoko denis^da (n=denis@p54929F9F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 12:10.15 | CM | SpeedEvil: You a masochist? ;) |
| 12:10.16 | SpeedEvil | The problem is upgrading is _expensive_ to a comparable machine. (1.1Kg, 6 hour battery life) |
| 12:10.34 | XorA | SpeedEvil: libretto? |
| 12:10.41 | SpeedEvil | Toshiba Portege 3110CT. |
| 12:10.47 | SpeedEvil | It diddn't start out with wireless. |
| 12:11.16 | thresh | and the screen is 2", right? |
| 12:11.25 | SpeedEvil | 10" :) |
| 12:11.31 | SpeedEvil | Actually - 10.9 |
| 12:11.59 | SpeedEvil | However, it's light enough to hold like a book, which is a big plus. |
| 12:13.07 | CM | What about the Q2010 or what they're called? Seems nice too |
| 12:13.48 | *** join/#openmoko bkuhn (n=bkuhn@thurgood-marshall.sflc.info) |
| 12:14.19 | SpeedEvil | Not exactly cheap though. |
| 12:14.54 | CM | Unfortunately.. :( |
| 12:15.15 | SpeedEvil | And battery life on the 6 cell battery sucks compared to what I have. |
| 12:15.23 | SpeedEvil | (re-celled of course) |
| 12:16.45 | *** join/#openmoko Rac0r (n=Rac0r@p5081D2BD.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 12:19.18 | *** join/#openmoko darmou (n=darmou@ppp143-161.lns3.mel6.internode.on.net) |
| 12:19.54 | *** join/#openmoko msroest (n=msroest@coloc1.beyond.ca) |
| 12:22.35 | *** join/#openmoko cktakahasi (n=Claudio@200.184.118.132) |
| 12:29.15 | *** join/#openmoko Magon (n=Magon@archangel.kolej.mff.cuni.cz) |
| 12:29.17 | *** join/#openmoko Zenton (n=vincent@212.166.192.135) |
| 12:29.19 | Zenton | hi all |
| 12:29.22 | Zenton | has openmoko already released and open their code? |
| 12:29.23 | aloril | Zenton: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
| 12:30.02 | CM | Zenton: They sure have, I recommend using the MokoMakefile |
| 12:30.12 | CM | Look in the wiki for that too :) |
| 12:30.59 | Zenton | thanks CM. I am looking at the wiki right now :) |
| 12:31.25 | *** join/#openmoko borg_ (n=olaf@80.149.17.21) |
| 12:32.58 | *** join/#openmoko Ryback_ (n=ulisses@200.184.118.132) |
| 12:43.45 | *** join/#openmoko denis^weg (n=denis@p54929911.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 12:53.25 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Summer_of_code]] [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] |
| 13:00.33 | *** join/#openmoko Marex (n=Marex@85.132.236.161) |
| 13:02.39 | *** join/#openmoko RedDog_ (n=reddog@mastersword.de) |
| 13:03.27 | *** join/#openmoko bahadunn (n=bahadunn@65.75.82.10) |
| 13:10.39 | *** join/#openmoko [g2] (n=g2@nslu2-linux/g2) |
| 13:11.14 | *** join/#openmoko sjoerd (n=sjoerd@tunnel3460.ipv6.xs4all.nl) |
| 13:11.54 | *** join/#openmoko atla (n=atla@p3EE3D298.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 13:12.28 | *** join/#openmoko inz (i=inz@inz.fi) |
| 13:13.56 | *** join/#openmoko ajturner (n=ajturner@c-68-42-68-205.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) |
| 13:17.43 | *** join/#openmoko sannes (i=ace@har.sagt.no) |
| 13:21.26 | *** join/#openmoko MoRpHeUz (n=morphbr@200.184.118.132) |
| 13:22.54 | *** join/#openmoko Xyrouz (n=Xyrouz@0x3e42caa9.adsl.cybercity.dk) |
| 13:26.39 | *** join/#openmoko mikesh (n=mikesh@feldconf.feld.cvut.cz) |
| 13:36.14 | *** join/#openmoko zecke (n=ich@88.134.99.50) |
| 13:40.48 | *** join/#openmoko pvanhoof (n=pvanhoof@d54C0EE14.access.telenet.be) |
| 13:44.59 | *** join/#openmoko msroest (n=msroest@coloc1.beyond.ca) |
| 13:45.27 | *** join/#openmoko pvanhoof (n=pvanhoof@d54C0EE14.access.telenet.be) |
| 13:48.26 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03laforge * r1388 10/trunk/oe/packages/ipkg/files/is-processing.patch: add new is-processing.patch from Ken Zhao |
| 13:48.51 | *** join/#openmoko cktakahasi (n=Claudio@200.184.118.141) |
| 13:53.24 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Summer_of_code]] [[Wishlist:Location_based_reminders]] [[User:Ajturner]] |
| 13:55.44 | *** join/#openmoko Matt_x (n=chatzill@209.198.66.141) |
| 14:04.18 | *** join/#openmoko krau (n=Claudio@200.184.118.141) |
| 14:04.39 | *** join/#openmoko Zenton (n=vincent@212.166.192.135) |
| 14:08.09 | Stephmw | dammit, got bitten by a prototype... not a neo1973 though ;) |
| 14:08.37 | XorA | Stephmw: carniverous Neos worry me |
| 14:08.51 | SpeedEvil | It is an alternative power source. |
| 14:11.06 | SpeedEvil | Furrygate 1: http://img.7chan.org/fur/src/117404519645.png |
| 14:11.09 | SpeedEvil | oops |
| 14:11.19 | SpeedEvil | (worksafe though) |
| 14:11.57 | *** join/#openmoko rd_ (n=redragon@vnsecurity.net) |
| 14:11.57 | *** join/#openmoko KeKeSeB (n=kekeseb@cl-306.bru-01.be.sixxs.net) |
| 14:12.17 | CM | SpeedEvil: Fords stupid gateway gave me this: "Access denied by WebWasher DynaBLocator content category. The requested URL belongs to the following category: Pornography." ;) |
| 14:12.39 | SpeedEvil | It is actually completely worksafe. |
| 14:12.48 | SpeedEvil | The site it is on is completely work-unsafe though. |
| 14:13.15 | CM | Well, Ford blocked that v12 boat engine with the reason "Extreme" |
| 14:15.44 | XorA | SpeedEvil: you dodgy 7chan reader |
| 14:31.50 | *** join/#openmoko Matt_x (n=chatzill@209.198.66.141) |
| 14:35.01 | Moo^^^ | CM: haha |
| 14:38.07 | *** join/#openmoko MetaBookfoziS (n=sajt@dsl54007FE0.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 14:40.09 | *** join/#openmoko technil (n=technil@c-75-68-237-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net) |
| 14:42.14 | *** join/#openmoko apakatt (n=apakatt@c83-252-108-234.bredband.comhem.se) |
| 14:45.08 | CM | Moo^^^: :P ;) |
| 14:45.43 | CM | ~v12 |
| 14:45.48 | apt | somebody said v12 was the next must-have in the Neo1973, http://www.ultimatestupidity.com/pics/1/diesel/ |
| 14:45.49 | Moo^^^ | luckily your corporate IT deparment knows what's safe for you - it would be pity if unmoral workers surf around bad sites or irc during worktime ;) |
| 14:45.58 | CM | That page.. |
| 14:46.32 | CM | At least they haven't blocked google reader and youtube.. |
| 14:46.55 | CM | How am I supposed to be a productive developer without them.. ;) |
| 14:46.59 | Moo^^^ | CM: you are .se? |
| 14:47.08 | Moo^^^ | I thought you were US |
| 14:47.11 | Moo^^^ | well |
| 14:47.34 | CM | Yes, but consulting at Volvo Cars, that's owned by Ford |
| 14:47.41 | Moo^^^ | time |
| 14:47.51 | CM | Hehe |
| 14:49.35 | CM | Thankfully they haven't blocked this either: http://www.sr.se/webbradio/start.asp?namn=p3rockster |
| 14:50.01 | Stephmw | hrmph. we're now supposed to work on multiple tasks in parallel... "errors, review requests, meetings, other minor activities as well as looking at your new features/implementations" |
| 14:53.25 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Neo1973]] [[Meet_the_Core_Team]] [[Main_Page]] |
| 15:01.04 | *** join/#openmoko atla (n=atla@p3ee3d298.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 15:01.08 | zecke | LaF0rge: I fear you need to look into gforge and the svn repositories |
| 15:12.05 | *** join/#openmoko danilos (n=danilo@adsl-236-193.eunet.yu) |
| 15:17.17 | *** join/#openmoko empty_mind (n=orion@59.176.111.177) |
| 15:23.46 | *** join/#openmoko Psi_ (n=benw@ip-58-28-158-238.ubs-dsl.xnet.co.nz) |
| 15:31.11 | PBeck | hi |
| 15:35.22 | *** join/#openmoko cydork (n=vihang@unaffiliated/cydork) |
| 15:35.51 | *** join/#openmoko meandtheshell (n=markus@85-125-230-215.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at) |
| 15:45.46 | *** join/#openmoko cathal (n=cathal@89.100.101.244) |
| 15:48.47 | *** join/#openmoko suspence (n=spencer@208.187.196.34) |
| 15:53.34 | *** join/#openmoko theholyduck (n=theholyd@ti541210a080-12045.bb.online.no) |
| 15:54.34 | *** join/#openmoko atla_ (n=atla@p3EE3E25A.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 15:55.16 | SpeedEvil | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:55.16 | SpeedEvil | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:55.16 | SpeedEvil | Slashdot Poll |
| 15:55.16 | SpeedEvil | Poll What is the most annoying thing to help mom with? |
| 15:55.16 | SpeedEvil | Download music |
| 15:56.06 | *** join/#openmoko SpeedEvil (n=fjjfjf@mauve.plus.com) |
| 15:56.23 | SpeedEvil | Did I actually flood? |
| 15:56.26 | CM | SpeedEvil: Paste-problem today? |
| 15:56.29 | SpeedEvil | Sigh. |
| 15:56.35 | CM | Only 5 rows |
| 15:56.50 | SpeedEvil | I was _trying_ to paste http://www.networkworld.com/news/2007/031507-military-systems-provide-instant-cell-phones.html |
| 15:57.01 | SpeedEvil | Which would be a fun device for your neo in the wilds :) |
| 16:12.44 | *** join/#openmoko prpplague (n=dave@mail.americanmicrosystems.com) |
| 16:23.12 | *** join/#openmoko balrog-kun (n=balrog@174-mo5-1.acn.waw.pl) |
| 16:24.34 | *** join/#openmoko helb (n=helb@84.244.90.159) |
| 16:24.34 | *** join/#openmoko mikesh (n=mikesh@feldconf.feld.cvut.cz) |
| 16:44.48 | *** join/#openmoko merriam (n=merriam@84-12-173-95.dyn.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 16:44.58 | *** join/#openmoko lmveloso (n=lmveloso@201.89.4.199) |
| 16:45.23 | *** join/#openmoko pleemans (n=peter@d51A5E76A.access.telenet.be) |
| 16:47.42 | *** join/#openmoko _ASK_ (n=chatzill@189.146.153.96) |
| 16:52.20 | *** join/#openmoko zibin (n=zibinche@83.233.231.60) |
| 16:52.36 | zibin | hello there |
| 16:53.00 | _ASK | hi |
| 16:53.06 | zibin | I am actually a student |
| 16:53.14 | zibin | currently looking at the openmoko SoC projects |
| 16:53.15 | zibin | :) |
| 16:53.23 | _ASK | http://mikemex.t35.com/phone/telefono.png |
| 16:53.41 | _ASK | http://mikemex.t35.com/phone/teclado2.png |
| 16:53.45 | *** join/#openmoko loufoque (n=loufoque@smj33-1-82-233-64-48.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 16:53.51 | *** join/#openmoko renihs (n=penguin@83-65-34-34.arsenal.xdsl-line.inode.at) |
| 16:54.00 | _ASK | what do you think about this layout? |
| 16:56.39 | *** join/#openmoko don-o (n=donp@206.163.122.98) |
| 16:56.42 | SuN | Rather... unorthodox, but it might work. |
| 16:56.43 | don-o | counter |
| 16:56.43 | aloril | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: 2 weeks, a day 19:03:16 (15.794 +-7.0 days) (551) |
| 16:56.51 | *** part/#openmoko don-o (n=donp@206.163.122.98) |
| 16:58.13 | *** join/#openmoko noidd (n=red@thievery.criticalintegration.com) |
| 16:58.21 | _ASK | well, puting linux in a phone is also somewhat unorthodox... |
| 16:59.43 | high-rez | counter |
| 16:59.43 | aloril | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: 2 weeks, a day 19:00:16 (15.792 +-7.0 days) (552) |
| 17:00.52 | *** join/#openmoko dilinger (n=dilinger@wireless-19-25.media.mit.edu) |
| 17:03.02 | *** join/#openmoko theholyduck (n=theholyd@ti541210a080-12045.bb.online.no) |
| 17:09.16 | *** join/#openmoko terrex (n=terrex@84.122.65.39.dyn.user.ono.com) |
| 17:10.53 | *** join/#openmoko Magon (n=Magon@archangel.kolej.mff.cuni.cz) |
| 17:23.32 | *** join/#openmoko abraxa__ (i=moehre@pd95fed46.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 17:27.27 | *** join/#openmoko dneary (n=dneary@AMarseille-256-1-70-178.w90-4.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 17:33.10 | *** join/#openmoko wookieface (n=benjamin@x1-6-00-03-2f-29-99-b9.k334.webspeed.dk) |
| 17:34.54 | *** join/#openmoko koen|recife (n=koen@201.38.11.131) |
| 17:35.30 | *** join/#openmoko abraxa_ (i=moehre@pd95fed46.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 17:53.25 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Introduction]] |
| 17:56.51 | *** join/#openmoko SirCrow (n=sircrow@sd511685b.adsl.wanadoo.nl) |
| 17:59.49 | *** join/#openmoko zipola (n=zipola@zip.kortex.jyu.fi) |
| 18:05.51 | *** join/#openmoko drWyrM (i=c88e3026@gateway/web/cgi-irc/ircatwork.com/x-0db13695672e408d) |
| 18:12.14 | *** join/#openmoko greentux (n=lemke@Z5672.z.pppool.de) |
| 18:15.13 | *** join/#openmoko ajturner (n=ajturner@c-68-42-68-205.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) |
| 18:15.41 | *** join/#openmoko TarasBulba (n=gorkem@81.214.127.147) |
| 18:16.32 | PBeck | re |
| 18:18.06 | LaF0rge | zecke: somebody needs to look into it, yes :( |
| 18:21.19 | *** join/#openmoko Eludias (n=eludias@wingding.demon.nl) |
| 18:22.29 | *** join/#openmoko Airschte (n=Miranda@pD95D54E6.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 18:25.18 | *** join/#openmoko Stephmw[1way] (n=steph@212.69.51.139) |
| 18:28.08 | *** join/#openmoko theholyduck (n=theholyd@ti541210a080-12045.bb.online.no) |
| 18:30.34 | PBeck | http://chaosradio.ccc.de/cre042.html <= german interview with Harald Welte |
| 18:32.17 | *** join/#openmoko ajturner (n=ajturner@c-68-42-68-205.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) |
| 18:32.40 | buz | any maemo device owners here? |
| 18:32.56 | ajturner | yes |
| 18:34.01 | *** join/#openmoko wbx (n=wbx@213.23.202.22) |
| 18:34.26 | buz | is the cx3110 driver fully opensource now? |
| 18:34.47 | buz | https://garage.maemo.org/projects/cx3110x/ says its gpl but i'm not sure if umac is still needed? |
| 18:35.50 | *** join/#openmoko behda1 (n=behdad@CPE000fb55e466d-CM0012c9c84bc4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 18:35.58 | *** join/#openmoko Zoolooc (n=Zoolooc@p54952D15.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 18:36.07 | ajturner | buz - not sure, I haven't dug in |
| 18:36.09 | ajturner | to that part |
| 18:36.15 | ajturner | you should check on #maemo |
| 18:36.18 | buz | i'll go ask in maemo then |
| 18:36.21 | buz | lol ;) |
| 18:49.05 | *** join/#openmoko friedel (n=fwolff@dsl-243-124-218.telkomadsl.co.za) |
| 18:51.23 | buz | i'm not particularly convinced people will want to learn a new layout |
| 18:51.38 | buz | oops wrong channel |
| 18:51.51 | MacNorth | i'd be open to learn :) |
| 18:53.25 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[WiFi_support_in_OpenMoko]] [[Gpsd]] [[Neo1973_Hardware]] |
| 18:54.14 | *** join/#openmoko zipola (n=zipola@zip.kortex.jyu.fi) |
| 18:54.51 | buz | sort of fits here too ;) |
| 18:55.02 | *** part/#openmoko jgm (n=jgm@host-87-74-179-156.bulldogdsl.com) |
| 18:55.28 | *** join/#openmoko jgm (n=jgm@host-87-74-179-156.bulldogdsl.com) |
| 18:56.55 | buz | i have done some more research into wifi http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/WiFi_support_in_OpenMoko#ST_Electronics |
| 18:57.34 | buz | maybe i should put ST and Conexant into the upper part though |
| 18:58.21 | buz | thoughts? |
| 18:59.06 | *** join/#openmoko jebba (n=jebba@220-179-89-200.fibertel.com.ar) |
| 19:00.47 | MacNorth | separate is good :) |
| 19:03.06 | *** join/#openmoko jannu (n=jannu@hoas-fe34dd00-216.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 19:03.45 | *** join/#openmoko MoRpHeUz (n=morphbr@200.184.118.132) |
| 19:05.56 | *** join/#openmoko vmaster_ (i=vmaster@p5B07FB3A.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 19:10.17 | *** join/#openmoko zipola (n=zipola@zip.kortex.jyu.fi) |
| 19:13.22 | *** join/#openmoko drWyrM (i=c8db8414@gateway/web/cgi-irc/ircatwork.com/x-339918f88f35dd39) |
| 19:14.14 | *** join/#openmoko zween (n=zween@80-47-230-27.lond-th.dynamic.dial.as9105.com) |
| 19:15.45 | *** join/#openmoko BenSee (n=bcollins@collinsap1.phunnypharm.org) |
| 19:17.39 | roh | buz i were on cebit in hannover yesterday and looked a bit for nice wlan-mac/radio combos.. but the only thing i could find was the advise to take a closer look at the marvell stuff. |
| 19:19.27 | roh | especially when looking at power requirements |
| 19:19.30 | *** join/#openmoko bmidgley_ (n=bmidgley@IP-155-101-217-109.media.utah.edu) |
| 19:21.48 | *** join/#openmoko pvanhoof (n=pvanhoof@d54C0EE14.access.telenet.be) |
| 19:32.45 | *** join/#openmoko zween_ (n=zween@80-47-247-152.lond-th.dynamic.dial.as9105.com) |
| 19:33.28 | *** join/#openmoko eidgenosse (n=freespir@84-74-49-140.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 19:33.36 | eidgenosse | good evening |
| 19:35.10 | *** part/#openmoko drWyrM (i=c8db8414@gateway/web/cgi-irc/ircatwork.com/x-339918f88f35dd39) |
| 19:37.41 | *** join/#openmoko zipola (n=zipola@zip.kortex.jyu.fi) |
| 19:47.55 | eidgenosse | laters |
| 19:48.42 | *** join/#openmoko ericthefish (n=ivan@82-71-36-214.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) |
| 19:50.24 | *** join/#openmoko nonickatm (n=chatzill@168.226.104.202) |
| 19:51.11 | nonickatm | a question: how many colours has got the neo1973 screen? it doesn't appear in the wiki |
| 19:56.05 | abraxa_ | It's either 15 or 16 bit, I forgot which |
| 19:56.37 | *** join/#openmoko SBKch (n=SBKch@254.224.unknown.vectranet.pl) |
| 19:57.48 | balrog-kun | it's 16 |
| 19:58.00 | balrog-kun | so 64k colous |
| 19:59.51 | abraxa_ | Thanks for clarifying ;3 |
| 20:00.46 | nonickatm | 64k colors? that sound painful |
| 20:01.25 | balrog-kun | too little? |
| 20:01.35 | abraxa_ | In what way? I'd say it suffices for all tasks except displaying photos |
| 20:01.36 | aloril | abraxa_: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
| 20:01.56 | nonickatm | even my oldish sony ericsson k310 has that quantity of colours in the display |
| 20:01.58 | balrog-kun | i'd say it suffices for displaying photos too |
| 20:03.07 | abraxa_ | Either way is fine with me - it's the resolution that makes me drool |
| 20:03.10 | cjb | balrog-kun: dude, your desktop's screen is probably displaying 16-bit color, mine is. |
| 20:03.29 | cjb | oops, s/balrog-kun/nonickatm/ |
| 20:03.52 | balrog-kun | well, mine is :P and it so happens that i'm retouching some pictures at this very moment |
| 20:04.14 | nonickatm | well, going to other point - is there some page on the wiki with the functions working actually? |
| 20:04.26 | nonickatm | I am too lazy to search :P |
| 20:04.55 | stefan_schmidt | nonickatm: Perhaps we are to lazy help people are to lazy to search. :) |
| 20:04.59 | *** join/#openmoko parag0n (i=Bob@cpc2-bagu2-0-0-cust850.bagu.cable.ntl.com) |
| 20:05.24 | parag0n | woo, apparently openmoko got into the summer of code |
| 20:05.25 | balrog-kun | i haven't seen any such page, like a summary of what's working |
| 20:05.32 | stefan_schmidt | nonickatm: What functions you are looking for? |
| 20:05.39 | balrog-kun | if you mean the software |
| 20:05.44 | SpeedEvil | parag0n: They want an OS for the Gphone. |
| 20:05.51 | balrog-kun | in the hardware i think you can assume everything is working |
| 20:05.54 | stefan_schmidt | nonickatm: It boots up into X and matchbox wm. |
| 20:06.02 | parag0n | SpeedEvil, ^_^ |
| 20:06.45 | stefan_schmidt | nonickatm: Voice calls only hand made without GUI yet. |
| 20:11.17 | nonickatm | I read that vibration and charging for example are working as stated here http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/U-boot (near the end) |
| 20:11.53 | nonickatm | so voicecalls ATM only works via console right? |
| 20:12.41 | SpeedEvil | uyes |
| 20:12.45 | SpeedEvil | minicom or soemthing |
| 20:12.47 | *** join/#openmoko dirak1 (n=pilar@69.79.145.81) |
| 20:14.21 | *** join/#openmoko atla (n=atla@p3EE3E25A.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 20:14.23 | stefan_schmidt | nonickatm: Voice only via console. Charging is still a bit broken, but we are on the way to fix this. |
| 20:15.19 | *** part/#openmoko dirak1 (n=pilar@69.79.145.81) |
| 20:16.32 | *** join/#openmoko MetaBookfoziS (n=sajt@3e44be55.adsl.enternet.hu) |
| 20:17.28 | nonickatm | also, for inputing text is used an external keyboard right? |
| 20:18.11 | stefan_schmidt | nonickatm: You can use on screen keyboard from matchbox |
| 20:18.14 | SpeedEvil | Well, you can. |
| 20:18.35 | nonickatm | ah so the touchscreen works? |
| 20:18.35 | SpeedEvil | bluetooth credit card keyboard, or any of a number of some-to-be-invented text entry methods |
| 20:18.38 | SpeedEvil | yes |
| 20:18.40 | SpeedEvil | At the moment. |
| 20:18.48 | SpeedEvil | It's basically a small touchscreen PC. |
| 20:18.49 | stefan_schmidt | nonickatm: Works fine |
| 20:19.02 | SpeedEvil | With a GSM modem, non-working GPS, and little software. |
| 20:19.11 | SpeedEvil | Running X. |
| 20:19.17 | stefan_schmidt | + bluetooth |
| 20:19.23 | SpeedEvil | yeah. |
| 20:19.26 | stefan_schmidt | But yeah, that's it |
| 20:19.38 | MetaBookfoziS | why gps isn't work? |
| 20:19.45 | nonickatm | well I am too curious today lol |
| 20:19.46 | SpeedEvil | no driver |
| 20:19.58 | SpeedEvil | there will be one soon. |
| 20:20.04 | MetaBookfoziS | it's builded in without driver? |
| 20:20.05 | SpeedEvil | And an open source one fairly soon. |
| 20:20.10 | MetaBookfoziS | ok... |
| 20:20.33 | Psi_ | hehe |
| 20:20.45 | stefan_schmidt | SpeedEvil: Hopefully. :) |
| 20:20.57 | Psi_ | if its possible, someone WILL do it |
| 20:21.04 | SpeedEvil | Well - I'll be going for it, if I can get hardware. |
| 20:21.19 | stefan_schmidt | Psi_: Of course. The question is how long it takes. |
| 20:21.24 | Psi_ | yeah |
| 20:21.29 | SpeedEvil | (/msg me for my address if you want to send it me free) :) |
| 20:21.37 | stefan_schmidt | heh |
| 20:21.47 | MetaBookfoziS | me: no such nick/channel |
| 20:21.50 | stefan_schmidt | SpeedEvil: ATM I only have one myself. |
| 20:21.54 | MetaBookfoziS | ;) |
| 20:22.14 | SpeedEvil | I know. |
| 20:22.38 | SpeedEvil | Are there any V4 hardware samples actually extant? |
| 20:25.10 | Psi_ | its nice that there will be a discount for phase1+ phones for people who bought phase1 |
| 20:25.23 | SpeedEvil | Yeah. |
| 20:25.36 | Psi_ | maybe they will send you out the PCB only |
| 20:25.42 | Psi_ | since the case will be the same |
| 20:26.27 | SpeedEvil | It'll depend. |
| 20:26.28 | stefan_schmidt | Psi_: Unlikely. The case cost more or less nothing |
| 20:26.28 | Psi_ | hehe |
| 20:26.28 | SpeedEvil | The case costs nothing. |
| 20:26.28 | SpeedEvil | The tooling for the case costs a fair bit. |
| 20:26.28 | SpeedEvil | several tens of thousands of dollars. |
| 20:26.38 | stefan_schmidt | Yeah, but having the PCB save on transport is worth it |
| 20:26.40 | Psi_ | isn't there some stuff thats mounted in the case that connects to the PCB over pads |
| 20:26.46 | Psi_ | that stuff could stay too |
| 20:26.57 | SpeedEvil | the speakers and vibrator. |
| 20:27.04 | Psi_ | gps antenna? |
| 20:27.12 | noidd | speaking of keyboards, my bluetooth laser keyboard should be arriving soon ;-D |
| 20:27.12 | SpeedEvil | that's a plug to a connecto0r |
| 20:27.24 | SpeedEvil | Let us know how it is. |
| 20:27.29 | parag0n | the screen could be kept too |
| 20:27.41 | stefan_schmidt | noidd: heh, I also thought about such one. Just to pricey in my opinion. |
| 20:27.49 | Psi_ | well, there is also all the manuals cables etc. that they wouldn't NEED to send, although people might want them so the have two working phones |
| 20:27.57 | Psi_ | the=they |
| 20:28.05 | SpeedEvil | Or so they have a complete set to ebay. |
| 20:28.41 | Psi_ | id prefer two working phones i think |
| 20:28.41 | buz | i hope conditions for discount will be announced at the very start of p1 |
| 20:28.44 | stefan_schmidt | Another kernel another broken colormap. *sigh* |
| 20:28.51 | Psi_ | buz, me too |
| 20:29.00 | SpeedEvil | P1+ details are to be announced at time of P1 availability |
| 20:29.11 | buz | thats what i understand, yes |
| 20:29.28 | Psi_ | we can wait a week/month etc after phase1 starts before deciding to order P1 right? |
| 20:29.31 | SpeedEvil | If P1 hits in enough volume, then P1+ may be upgraded internally in terms of effort. |
| 20:29.34 | buz | sure |
| 20:29.38 | SpeedEvil | However. |
| 20:29.45 | SpeedEvil | There may be 6 week delays if they run out. |
| 20:29.52 | Psi_ | yeah |
| 20:29.54 | Psi_ | noticed that bit |
| 20:30.00 | buz | SpeedEvil: you think p1+ will get another update after april? |
| 20:30.07 | buz | somehow, i doubt that |
| 20:30.10 | SpeedEvil | Well. |
| 20:30.28 | buz | sure, that imx31 would be tasty ;) |
| 20:30.49 | SpeedEvil | If they sell 5-10K of P1, P1+ may get more effort I mean. |
| 20:31.02 | buz | sure, but it might be too late for that then |
| 20:31.11 | buz | but maybe then p2 is yet another phone |
| 20:31.37 | MacNorth | the Duke! |
| 20:31.44 | roh | don't panic.. first the p0 hardware needs to be fixed completely to get a p1 ;) |
| 20:31.53 | hrw | p1+ will probably get newer s3c24xx but still s3c24xx |
| 20:31.56 | SpeedEvil | IMO UTMS or 3G would make it P2. |
| 20:32.07 | buz | UMTS is $$$ |
| 20:32.09 | stefan_schmidt | roh: rightto :( |
| 20:32.12 | SpeedEvil | I assume no s3* is USB2? |
| 20:32.22 | buz | i thought i read usb2 for s3c2443 |
| 20:32.47 | prpplague | buz only for the slave port |
| 20:32.49 | SpeedEvil | IMO, more interesting in some way than the hardware is the vendors. |
| 20:33.12 | buz | prpplague: is that hardware limited to be slave? |
| 20:33.16 | SpeedEvil | If we can get vendors subsidising it in major markets, that's a big plus. |
| 20:33.19 | buz | or just well thought to be used as slave |
| 20:33.28 | prpplague | buz: only the slave port is usb2.0 the host port is still 1.1 |
| 20:33.31 | roh | uh... my mmc does not want to be mounted as ext2? |
| 20:33.43 | buz | yeah but could you emulate a host in software? |
| 20:33.50 | hrw | roh: no ext2 kernel module on rootfs? |
| 20:33.53 | SpeedEvil | no |
| 20:34.03 | SpeedEvil | host and peripheral mode are very diffent |
| 20:34.04 | roh | hrw eh.. should have one |
| 20:34.05 | prpplague | hrw: think they'll go with a 2440 or something like the 2412 ? |
| 20:34.11 | SpeedEvil | You can't do it in hardware. |
| 20:34.16 | SpeedEvil | software rather. |
| 20:34.27 | SpeedEvil | Unless you have a FPGA driving the USB :) |
| 20:34.32 | buz | isnt samsung pushing away from 2440 |
| 20:34.35 | roh | indeed.. only ext3 *sigh* |
| 20:34.51 | hrw | prpplague: I do not know s3c cpus |
| 20:34.54 | prpplague | buz: no, they just don't actively push it |
| 20:34.58 | prpplague | hrw: ahh |
| 20:35.28 | prpplague | buz: we are guaranteed by samsung to have s3c2440's for a min of 5 years with an option for 7 |
| 20:36.02 | SpeedEvil | Do we care so much about the processor? As long as it's a couple of years? |
| 20:36.15 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: yes and no |
| 20:36.17 | hrw | prpplague: I think that to have something for massmarket they cannot change neo1973 hardware too much. |
| 20:36.25 | buz | i dont think its 2412 as someone metioned something about 400+mhz |
| 20:36.30 | SpeedEvil | I mean, I'd hope for a hardware refresh every coupld of years, perhaps going with utterly different CPU. |
| 20:36.35 | SpeedEvil | As long as it's source... |
| 20:36.49 | prpplague | hrw: yea the 244x series 400+mhz |
| 20:36.50 | buz | yeah it would suck selling the same cpu in 2011 |
| 20:37.12 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: yea, main problem with switching processors within the s3c24xx series is the number of pins for bga package |
| 20:37.24 | hrw | prpplague: compatible and only need rerouting PCB? |
| 20:37.25 | SpeedEvil | More layers? |
| 20:37.46 | *** join/#openmoko unmadindu (n=sayamind@gnu-india/admin/unmadindu) |
| 20:38.00 | prpplague | hrw: mostly compatible internally, but has different pinout |
| 20:38.09 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: oh yea, and very very very small pags |
| 20:38.11 | prpplague | pads |
| 20:38.26 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 20:38.29 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: we looked at using the 2443 and the price to do the bga was way out of range |
| 20:38.47 | hrw | prpplague: different pins are matter of rerouting rather... but checking does it works correctly is other thing... |
| 20:38.49 | _ASK | i was wondering |
| 20:38.53 | SpeedEvil | I have actually done rats-nest wiring to BGA chips - that is silly. |
| 20:38.56 | _ASK | to make binary software packages |
| 20:39.12 | _ASK | i think we could use a binary image with FS |
| 20:39.14 | SpeedEvil | Binary compatibility may be an issue. |
| 20:39.15 | _ASK | and mount it |
| 20:39.26 | SpeedEvil | For example, if tomtom produced a GPS for it. |
| 20:39.34 | hrw | all s3c are armv4t iirc |
| 20:39.40 | _ASK | that binary image contains all files needed to run the application |
| 20:39.51 | buz | both have arm920 inside |
| 20:40.02 | *** join/#openmoko _rob (n=rob@ACB76E59.ipt.aol.com) |
| 20:40.09 | parag0n | for mass-market shouldnt the minisd be fat32? |
| 20:40.12 | SpeedEvil | If the rumors of a 1G flash in P1+ are true, that raises interesting possibilities that way. |
| 20:40.19 | prpplague | yea well doing 272 pins for the s3c2410 is one thing, doing 400 pins for the s3c2443 in the _same_ package size, is definetly another |
| 20:40.22 | _ASK | yes paragon |
| 20:40.33 | prpplague | http://www.samsung.com/Products/Semiconductor/common/product_list.aspx?family_cd=MSC0102 |
| 20:40.42 | buz | prpplague: mind you fic has been doing mainboards for 2 decades |
| 20:40.54 | buz | they should know a thing or two about dense packaging |
| 20:40.54 | hrw | SpeedEvil: the problem is how much time will be needed to mount it... |
| 20:41.09 | SpeedEvil | Mainboards are not really dense. |
| 20:41.16 | prpplague | buz: yea, well, so have we, but this is very very small |
| 20:41.27 | SpeedEvil | phones are a whole new level of insanity. |
| 20:41.28 | buz | SpeedEvil: depends a bit on hte chipset |
| 20:41.32 | SpeedEvil | True. |
| 20:43.07 | buz | still s3c2440 is a 2003 design |
| 20:43.24 | buz | and s3c2443 is rather yesteryears too |
| 20:43.51 | SpeedEvil | Fine balance between latest and cheapest |
| 20:43.59 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: based on our design using a 2443, we were looking at a 120% increase in pcb and assembly costs over the s3c2410 with regards to the cpu section |
| 20:44.08 | SpeedEvil | Ow. |
| 20:44.42 | buz | do you manufacture inhouse? |
| 20:45.16 | prpplague | buz: we have inhouse facilities, but also contract out large production runs |
| 20:46.17 | _ASK | prpplague: what about using this design of mine? full keyboard yet slim phone: http://mikemex.t35.com/phone/telefono.png, http://mikemex.t35.com/phone/teclado2.png |
| 20:47.11 | prpplague | _ASK: using it for what? |
| 20:47.12 | _ASK | 50x105 mm is the actual size |
| 20:47.18 | buz | i would prefer cloning of htc excalibur |
| 20:47.20 | _ASK | next generation neo |
| 20:47.22 | buz | with vga upgrade |
| 20:48.09 | prpplague | _ASK: oh, well i have no clue about that |
| 20:48.18 | _ASK | don't you work at fic? |
| 20:48.23 | prpplague | uh no |
| 20:48.26 | _ASK | oh. |
| 20:48.58 | prpplague | _ASK: http://www.amltd.com |
| 20:49.05 | prpplague | _ASK: we do industrial handhelds |
| 20:49.17 | prpplague | _ASK: nice looking keypad layout though |
| 20:49.50 | _ASK | it's not ranrom the key placement, it was derived from a study of unigram, bigram and trigram frequencies in the language |
| 20:50.01 | _ASK | offers reduced finger movement |
| 20:50.07 | _ASK | for single thumb typing |
| 20:50.34 | buz | problem with such designs is that generally they work well for one language |
| 20:50.41 | hrw | _ASK: to much keys.. |
| 20:50.46 | buz | and occasionally suck totally for other ones |
| 20:51.41 | _ASK | no, because i derived the keyboard from spanish and english |
| 20:51.48 | _ASK | it works well for both |
| 20:51.57 | hrw | _ASK: polish, rusian greek too? |
| 20:52.11 | guaqua | looks bad for finnish |
| 20:52.27 | _ASK | english 800 million speakers, spanish 450, 1250 million compared to like 300 of the other languages... |
| 20:52.32 | roh | _ASK not that i'm a fan of touchscreens either, but when the decicion to do a mechanical keyboard, especially one with more keys than 'numberpad' comes to mind, i'd really not want sth not querty |
| 20:52.51 | buz | wtf do you find 800mio native english speakers |
| 20:52.54 | *** join/#openmoko cworth (n=cworth@dhcp-223-37.seas.pdx.edu) |
| 20:52.57 | SpeedEvil | wikipedia |
| 20:52.59 | _ASK | not native |
| 20:53.07 | SpeedEvil | IIRC there is _major_ disagreement on that article. |
| 20:53.12 | guaqua | you don't count the non-natives, _ASK |
| 20:53.15 | roh | nobody wants to learn a new keyboard. thats why dvorak did not get major layout |
| 20:53.17 | SpeedEvil | However. |
| 20:53.25 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]] |
| 20:53.40 | buz | i would venture out to say that there are more native spanish speaking people htan english |
| 20:53.43 | SpeedEvil | Add england (60m) US (250) Au (100?) and you're up to 400m. |
| 20:53.45 | _ASK | nobody? or maybe marketing people thinks they can think for others |
| 20:54.04 | buz | nobody |
| 20:54.07 | buz | not even the geeks |
| 20:54.12 | _ASK | internet is dominated by english, thus it's important |
| 20:54.14 | guaqua | us ~286 |
| 20:54.18 | buz | or how many dvorak keyboards have you seen out in the wild? |
| 20:54.37 | SpeedEvil | guaqua: some of which are too old or young to speak english. |
| 20:54.38 | buz | (i think it would be rather hard to even order one of those) |
| 20:54.44 | hrw | _ASK: THINK about 'mam & dad' type of users |
| 20:55.01 | _ASK | but it's not the same a desktop keyboard than a phoe keyboard; most people has to get used to the phone model, anyway |
| 20:55.02 | peepsalot | i think people might be more open minded with keyboard layouts on a phone |
| 20:55.05 | guaqua | SpeedEvil: or a significant minority who are too dumb to speak proper english ;) |
| 20:55.08 | buz | it's bad enough switching between qwerty and qwertz |
| 20:55.12 | SpeedEvil | That too. :) |
| 20:55.26 | buz | there's just NFW i'm gonna use some other double plus weird layout |
| 20:55.30 | guaqua | where do you have qwertz? |
| 20:55.32 | SpeedEvil | IME _radically_ different layouts aren't too bad. |
| 20:55.37 | buz | german languages |
| 20:55.49 | hrw | _ASK: to use keyboard I do not need to learn new layout as my fingers known qwerty and I can type blindly |
| 20:56.00 | SpeedEvil | If double plus wierd actually gives very good results with moderate learning, ... |
| 20:56.08 | hrw | _ASK: any new layout will make me slower |
| 20:56.17 | buz | SpeedEvil: i never got good results with t9 myself |
| 20:56.17 | SpeedEvil | Not if the keys are too small. |
| 20:56.22 | _ASK | but there are new generations |
| 20:56.34 | _ASK | just because you can't adapt it doesn't mean that everybody can't |
| 20:56.44 | buz | they cant either |
| 20:56.46 | *** join/#openmoko atla (n=atla@p3EE3E25A.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 20:56.48 | _ASK | and as i said, it offers real advantages |
| 20:56.52 | buz | because there are like 2billion qwerty keyboards outthere iguess |
| 20:57.19 | _ASK | it's not the same motor program for the mind to type both handed than one handed |
| 20:57.22 | _ASK | so i think it's ok |
| 20:57.31 | peepsalot | hrw: some "mam & dad" types might not yet have qwerty ingrained in their heads either |
| 20:57.50 | SpeedEvil | The right way is complete configurability. |
| 20:57.51 | _ASK | well, i have to go, i'll keep pushing this. |
| 20:57.51 | buz | but teenagers have t9 ingrained |
| 20:58.04 | buz | SpeedEvil: with what like unlabeled keys |
| 20:58.07 | SpeedEvil | Which is harder with actual hardware keybs of course. |
| 20:58.20 | SpeedEvil | Optimus or something similar. |
| 20:58.29 | SpeedEvil | But they are impossibly expensive. |
| 20:58.47 | buz | maybe you could do a bendable touchscreen though |
| 20:58.52 | buz | that would at least give feedback |
| 20:59.00 | buz | but still no hole between keys |
| 20:59.12 | peepsalot | i wonder if a remoavble tacile overlay could be used with a touchscreen to good effect |
| 20:59.27 | buz | i have been wondering about that too |
| 20:59.30 | SpeedEvil | Me too! |
| 20:59.39 | SpeedEvil | especially possibly in a clamshell sort of arrangement. |
| 21:00.00 | buz | i'm not quite sure how it should work yet |
| 21:00.12 | buz | maybe mostly transparent foil type keyboard |
| 21:00.21 | buz | like those silicone keyboards |
| 21:00.36 | hrw | cu |
| 21:00.42 | SpeedEvil | wav |
| 21:00.55 | buz | that could also be very cheap to manufacture |
| 21:01.23 | peepsalot | yes transparency would be necesity, this allows it to have different key layouts with same hardware. screen would display layout for your language |
| 21:01.39 | buz | well then you need very good transparency |
| 21:01.47 | buz | which basically means no silicone |
| 21:01.58 | SpeedEvil | That's actually wrong. |
| 21:02.05 | SpeedEvil | There are optically pure silicones. |
| 21:02.11 | buz | oooh |
| 21:02.16 | SpeedEvil | They are of course more expensive. |
| 21:02.18 | buz | might be $$$ |
| 21:02.35 | SpeedEvil | But they are used for things like the surrounds to 'wrap around' safety glasses. |
| 21:02.39 | buz | plus once you start doing pits and stuff you get all kinds of optical issues |
| 21:02.50 | SpeedEvil | The optical issues are difficult. |
| 21:03.01 | buz | it's probably much easier to simple print on the keys |
| 21:03.07 | peepsalot | so you just need a material with an index of refraction axactly equal to air ;-) |
| 21:03.07 | SpeedEvil | yeah. |
| 21:03.23 | SpeedEvil | Or make the phone waterproof, and supply the user with a bucket of water. |
| 21:03.45 | buz | give him a hud and display the chars there |
| 21:03.48 | *** join/#openmoko terrex (n=terrex@84.122.65.39.dyn.user.ono.com) |
| 21:04.09 | buz | then you can even have semitransparent fingers |
| 21:04.11 | nonickatm | so we must think about an replacement for T9, or in the worst case, create a new one |
| 21:04.32 | peepsalot | T10? |
| 21:04.40 | buz | t13 |
| 21:04.49 | buz | so you can have 26 chars with only shift |
| 21:05.05 | buz | i always thought t9 was borderline stupid |
| 21:05.17 | buz | consdering that you really have 10 keys |
| 21:05.39 | SpeedEvil | You need an escape key. |
| 21:05.41 | buz | (or usually even 12) |
| 21:06.07 | peepsalot | screw it, just perfect voice rec. |
| 21:06.15 | SpeedEvil | Subvocal. |
| 21:06.15 | buz | no |
| 21:06.16 | noidd | SE: England is not 60M |
| 21:06.20 | SpeedEvil | UK |
| 21:06.22 | buz | mindreading |
| 21:06.25 | noidd | thank you :-P |
| 21:06.39 | SpeedEvil | I was cribbing off my memory for wikipedia. |
| 21:06.52 | noidd | then you should know better :-P |
| 21:07.05 | SpeedEvil | I do - I was just going from memory, without thought. |
| 21:07.06 | noidd | wru laser keyboard |
| 21:07.38 | buz | laser keyboard sucks for a variety of reasons |
| 21:07.49 | buz | it basically has one redeeming feature: it's utterly geeky. and it looks cool. |
| 21:08.16 | SpeedEvil | IMO, a flexible keyboard that you could put down on a surface is much better. |
| 21:08.24 | SpeedEvil | Even if it needs a minicamera to read it. |
| 21:08.38 | SpeedEvil | (as it has no real electronics) |
| 21:08.44 | buz | there are rollup keyboards |
| 21:08.47 | SpeedEvil | yeah. |
| 21:08.50 | buz | with real electronics |
| 21:09.00 | buz | but its not integrated into the device |
| 21:09.04 | SpeedEvil | I have doubts as to how well they will survive frequent openings and closings. |
| 21:09.26 | SpeedEvil | You can pretty easily make a keyboard shaped thing that can be crushed into a pocket and survive. |
| 21:09.37 | SpeedEvil | Making electronics in there too is hard. |
| 21:09.53 | SpeedEvil | If all it needs is a little camera to look at your hands, that might be a win. |
| 21:11.44 | buz | yeah but placing the camera in the phone is hard |
| 21:12.00 | buz | it probably cant see the keyboard if you place the phone in any sane direction |
| 21:12.20 | buz | mhh these laser thingies are quite cheap on beay |
| 21:12.37 | SpeedEvil | I was meaning as an alternative to the laser keyb bluetooth thing. |
| 21:12.40 | nonickatm | or maybe we should take advantage of the big touchscreen to make a QWERTY keyboard in it |
| 21:12.48 | SpeedEvil | IME, nice stuff stays off ebay. |
| 21:13.00 | abraxa_ | SpeedEvil: For me, http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/ultraslim-credit-cardsized-bluetooth-keyboard-235252.php would do just fine and matches the "fits into pocket" criteria well |
| 21:13.03 | SpeedEvil | Or at least has a high price. |
| 21:13.07 | SpeedEvil | yeah - saw that one. |
| 21:13.08 | buz | big? that keayboard is not big |
| 21:13.10 | peepsalot | hmm, what about some kind of textured, roll up epaper keyboard for dislpaying different keysets |
| 21:13.23 | buz | wheres the point |
| 21:13.29 | buz | how many keysets do you really need |
| 21:13.30 | SpeedEvil | E-ink are very uncooperative though. |
| 21:13.39 | SpeedEvil | IME |
| 21:13.53 | peepsalot | well, everyone was arguing about different keysets for all these languages |
| 21:13.57 | abraxa_ | peepsalot: Is there even foldable/rollable epaper? |
| 21:14.02 | SpeedEvil | There is. |
| 21:14.04 | SpeedEvil | It sucks. |
| 21:14.06 | SpeedEvil | IMO. |
| 21:14.16 | peepsalot | i thought there was, dunno much about it honeslty |
| 21:14.21 | SpeedEvil | The basic problem is that it requires a flexible matrix backing. |
| 21:14.34 | SpeedEvil | If one wire breaks - out of the few hundred, you get streaks. |
| 21:15.30 | abraxa_ | Doesn't sound all too easy to do then |
| 21:15.53 | peepsalot | Unfortunately, no one can be told what the flexible Matrix backing is. You have to see it for yourself. |
| 21:16.59 | abraxa_ | Neo's not here yet |
| 21:18.22 | *** join/#openmoko libervisco (n=libervis@tuxhacker/libervis) |
| 21:19.16 | *** join/#openmoko yellat (n=tal@adsl-75-44-216-40.dsl.chi2ca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 21:19.20 | *** part/#openmoko yellat (n=tal@adsl-75-44-216-40.dsl.chi2ca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 21:20.53 | peepsalot | just have everyone learn sign language, and use a camera device to interpret it. or some gloves that recognize hand positions |
| 21:24.08 | peepsalot | i have a dream that in the future a basic phone could be made in the shape of a glove. a microphone in the pinky and a speaker in the thumb. to make a call you just form a phone with your hand, and voice recognition would dial for you |
| 21:24.25 | peepsalot | maybe a display in the palm, but not necesary |
| 21:24.27 | abraxa_ | I think I'll stick to the touchscreen and mini-keyboard ;) |
| 21:25.38 | jebba | rwhitby, I cleared out build/tmp, and am getting this again, so the dependency disappeared or something: "configure: error: can't find confuse library" for ftdi-eeprom-native-0.2-r1 |
| 21:25.55 | buz | i think i saw a bracelet concept device a few days back |
| 21:27.12 | peepsalot | i just really want to see a glove phone cause i think it would look hilarious |
| 21:27.13 | prpplague | buz: there is one being marketed in EU |
| 21:27.37 | peepsalot | like a watch/phone? |
| 21:27.49 | prpplague | http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS6361521174.html |
| 21:28.13 | peepsalot | that's a huge "bracelet" |
| 21:28.42 | peepsalot | can't imagine wearing one |
| 21:30.03 | SpeedEvil | If it's large, it's got to be a combination of jewelery and electronics IMO. |
| 21:30.06 | prpplague | we did some early prototypes of a wearable with some cases like this - http://www.okwusa.com/products/okw/ergo.htm |
| 21:30.09 | SpeedEvil | And exposed. |
| 21:32.02 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: hehe, well we find that alot of companies don't want "cooling looking devices" because they don't want their employees taking them |
| 21:33.48 | *** join/#openmoko ebel (n=rory@A-72-64.cust.iol.ie) |
| 21:34.22 | Psi_ | hm.. have they released the entire circuit diagram for the phone? |
| 21:35.07 | *** join/#openmoko cathal (n=cathal@89.101.192.70) |
| 21:35.42 | *** join/#openmoko wbx (n=wbx@gprs-pool-1-001.eplus-online.de) |
| 21:35.43 | SpeedEvil | no |
| 21:35.48 | SpeedEvil | not at all. |
| 21:35.52 | Psi_ | pity |
| 21:35.57 | *** join/#openmoko greghunt (n=greg@88-108-112-56.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) |
| 21:35.57 | prpplague | i doubt they will |
| 21:36.01 | SpeedEvil | there is a component layout diagram somewhere on the web. |
| 21:36.22 | SpeedEvil | However, that tells you nothing more than the piccys. |
| 21:36.31 | Psi_ | wanted to see if there was a test pad for the led backlight power |
| 21:36.37 | SpeedEvil | why? |
| 21:37.04 | Psi_ | see if it would be easy to solder a IR led and resistor across the led backlight |
| 21:37.12 | SpeedEvil | Why |
| 21:37.14 | SpeedEvil | ? |
| 21:37.25 | Psi_ | ir remote control |
| 21:37.33 | SpeedEvil | Prolly easier to do it over the vibrator. |
| 21:37.43 | prpplague | or ever over the rs-232 |
| 21:37.45 | Psi_ | hm.. yes, that might work |
| 21:37.56 | Psi_ | rs232 would need extra components |
| 21:38.44 | *** join/#openmoko koen|recife (n=koen@201.38.11.131) |
| 21:38.58 | Psi_ | i already tested a white LED to see if it could work to control IR devices, (stuck one into my vcr remote) it worked, but only at 10cm |
| 21:39.20 | Psi_ | so it may be possible to hold the phone screen up to a IR device and control it without and hardware mods :P |
| 21:39.39 | Psi_ | and=any |
| 21:41.12 | *** join/#openmoko zween (n=zween@80-47-247-152.lond-th.dynamic.dial.as9105.com) |
| 21:42.38 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03mickey * r1389 10/trunk/oe/packages/linux/linux-gta01/defconfig-2.6.20.2-fic-gta01: add LEDS |
| 21:42.46 | *** join/#openmoko friedel (n=fwolff@dsl-243-124-218.telkomadsl.co.za) |
| 21:46.19 | abraxa_ | Psi_: Interesting idea, though I wonder if maybe the IR LED could be hooked up to the stereo jack as well - if so then we could do with very little hardware, given that the amp doesn't ruin the waveforms |
| 21:47.17 | MacNorth | that's a nice approach :) |
| 21:47.25 | Psi_ | yes, audio port is another possibility |
| 21:47.31 | MacNorth | write a 'song', turn off a tv |
| 21:48.04 | Psi_ | i would like to avoid the audio port though, because it means you cant use the audio port for audio and control stuff at the same time |
| 21:48.48 | Psi_ | and, if you are listening to mp3s, you will be jaming everywhere around you with IR noise :P |
| 21:49.06 | Psi_ | unless you added a switch, and that is just one more piece of hardware to add |
| 21:50.09 | MacNorth | standard audio jack is 2V peak-to-peak. so plenty of voltage for a LED; with 32-Ohm head phones, the unit should be able to source enough current as well |
| 21:50.10 | Psi_ | err. 2v isnt enough for all leds |
| 21:50.10 | Psi_ | some are 3.8v |
| 21:50.10 | MacNorth | only greedy ones ;) |
| 21:50.10 | Psi_ | but i think IR leds are less than 2v so should be fine |
| 21:50.11 | *** join/#openmoko handir (n=handir@pD9EBC07E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 21:50.13 | *** join/#openmoko darmou (n=darmou@ppp143-161.lns3.mel6.internode.on.net) |
| 21:50.45 | peepsalot | yeah, I was discussing this same idea a couple weeks ago on here. I think my approach would be to use the headphone output, and add a switch. would either use headphones or IR, but never both at same time |
| 21:51.36 | SpeedEvil | The forward voltage of an LED is usually closely related to the photon energy that comes out. |
| 21:51.41 | *** join/#openmoko TarasBulba (n=gorkem@81.214.127.147) |
| 21:51.48 | SpeedEvil | IR LEDs are 0.9V or so, blue ones 4V |
| 21:51.49 | Psi_ | id much prefer to cut a small hole in the case and mount an led internally, but i know some people wont what to do internal hw mods |
| 21:52.10 | Psi_ | ^ |
| 21:52.26 | SpeedEvil | You may be able to mount it behind the speaker grill. |
| 21:52.34 | Psi_ | that would be good |
| 21:53.15 | abraxa_ | Personally I'd say that the people who are geek enough to use their phone as an IR remote will be okay with messing with the hardware ;) |
| 21:53.21 | Psi_ | hehe |
| 21:53.40 | *** join/#openmoko ebel (n=rory@A-72-64.cust.iol.ie) |
| 21:57.35 | CM | Yes, the F700 is nice :) |
| 21:58.00 | abraxa_ | pH5: That would indeed rock but seeing how crammed the Neo is even now already.. |
| 21:59.23 | spikebik1 | counter |
| 21:59.23 | aloril | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: 2 weeks, a day 14:00:36 (15.584 +-7.0 days) (553) |
| 22:06.27 | roh | hm.. the F700 looks nice.. but in that case i want the display not only to slide but to tilt upwards to give a better viewing angle and _extremely_ important: one line and one row more keys. a keyboard without <tab> and numbers is worthless |
| 22:07.20 | abraxa_ | The tab key you can do without if you have a touch screen, me thinks |
| 22:07.29 | abraxa_ | The numbers... true that |
| 22:07.45 | SpeedEvil | I _think_ there is space for a button, or maybe a thumbstick next to the GPS. |
| 22:08.04 | SpeedEvil | I need pics of the inside of the front of the case though. |
| 22:08.05 | *** join/#openmoko friedel (n=fwolff@dsl-243-124-218.telkomadsl.co.za) |
| 22:09.01 | roh | abraxa_ when i have to use the touch for extra-buttons its a flawed concept |
| 22:10.01 | roh | but i'm in favor of a communicator style device sometime later after p1/p2 is done... no hurry and no half-baked solutions ;) |
| 22:10.20 | abraxa_ | Dunno, if one of the thumbs can reach up to the display and just activate the control you want to tab to then I don't really see a problem |
| 22:11.13 | roh | abraxa_ the problem is that this would be a hack. and it would break existing software and existing userinterfaces massively |
| 22:12.10 | roh | and i use tab that often while chatting/working in the shell that it woult render the device not worth its money. even the communicator has some kind of usable keyboard |
| 22:12.26 | abraxa_ | I'd dive into the topic more but honestly I think we're beating a dead horse here :) |
| 22:13.04 | roh | abraxa_ we are... as long as P1 is not finished its really wasted time. |
| 22:13.10 | *** join/#openmoko lyakh (n=lyakh@dynamic-unidsl-85-197-31-110.westend.de) |
| 22:14.14 | abraxa_ | Yeah, let's spend it on more important things ;) |
| 22:16.03 | *** join/#openmoko mikesh (n=mikesh@x133.net.upc.cz) |
| 22:16.42 | lyakh | hi, I've had a chance to play with an openmoko prototype for 2 evenings and wrote down a couple of observations / bugs that occurred to me. Where shall I report them? to openmoko-users? |
| 22:16.42 | aloril | lyakh: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
| 22:18.12 | roh | lyakh take a look in the wiki and add your obervations there if not already in. if in doubt just ask here or on a discussion-page in the wiki |
| 22:18.44 | paulproteus | roh, I'm also really interested as a potential future user. (-: |
| 22:20.26 | roh | paulproteus you mean the keyboard-variant of the moko i wanna have? |
| 22:20.54 | SpeedEvil | Or add to the zilla |
| 22:21.51 | *** join/#openmoko abraxa__ (i=moehre@pd95fec30.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 22:22.52 | paulproteus | Oops, I meant that to lyakh, not to roh. |
| 22:23.43 | lyakh | I think it is really better to post to a mailing list - this way respective developers will see the entries at least once, and can directly sort them out as new / redundant / irrelevant / ... |
| 22:24.00 | *** join/#openmoko greghunt (n=greg@88-108-112-56.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) |
| 22:24.08 | SpeedEvil | The ML isn't really volume. |
| 22:24.12 | lyakh | you just seem to have too many of them |
| 22:24.50 | lyakh | exactly, SpeedEvil - too many lists for a relatively small (in terms of traffic) project |
| 22:25.26 | roh | hmmmm.. somehow the bootloader just switches off this moko when i do not type on the usbacm? |
| 22:30.46 | *** join/#openmoko greghunt (n=greg@88-108-112-56.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) |
| 22:33.34 | *** join/#openmoko bluelightning (n=blueligh@222-155-132-230.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) |
| 22:36.06 | *** join/#openmoko merriam_ (n=merriam@84-12-81-29.dyn.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 22:44.45 | *** join/#openmoko DukeOfURL (n=chatzill@vc7-1-39.dsl.netrack.net) |
| 22:45.36 | *** join/#openmoko TimRiker (n=timr@rikers.org) |
| 22:46.17 | darmou | does anyone know anything about the google phone? |
| 22:46.33 | darmou | I've heard it will be a bit like the blackberry with google maps |
| 22:49.14 | lyakh | TimRiker, hi, do you have an idea how one can efficiently report some _possible_ bugs on o-moko? there are about a dozen mailing lists, no idea if they are read and which of them. Bugzilla entries for something that can in the end turn out to be no-issue are dull too |
| 22:49.53 | SpeedEvil | the community mailing list is probably read by everyone |
| 22:50.14 | lyakh | ok, thanks, SpeedEvil, exactly what I needed to know! |
| 22:50.53 | SpeedEvil | I don't think anyone knows. |
| 22:50.56 | SpeedEvil | (gphone) |
| 22:51.18 | abraxa_ | I think that phase 1 experiences may best put onto the -devel list |
| 22:51.55 | vmaster | i'm sure it's going to be web 5.0 interactive community powered multi-tier enhanced aka. just great |
| 22:52.03 | lyakh | heh, comment to community@lists.openmoko.org: "Please Do not post usage or development questions here." - really helpful |
| 22:52.31 | vmaster | the google phone, that is |
| 22:52.54 | SpeedEvil | Of course, they could simply all pile on openmoko to develop the OS. |
| 22:53.19 | *** join/#openmoko bluelightning_ (n=blueligh@222-155-134-152.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) |
| 22:53.25 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Calculator]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] |
| 22:56.44 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@dsl093-060-111.pit1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 22:56.45 | DukeOfURL | SpeedEvil: My clients will have a Neo, but I don't want them tampering with the phone (although replacing the battery will be ok). Is there some way to detect a new SIM card? Detect opening of the case? |
| 22:57.06 | SpeedEvil | AIUI - yes, you can detect SIM change. |
| 22:57.20 | DukeOfURL | SpeedEvil: I'd like to disable the phone upon tampering. |
| 22:57.26 | SpeedEvil | You will need to lock down u-boot. |
| 22:57.34 | SpeedEvil | And they could still reflash it with a debug board. |
| 22:57.44 | cjb | DukeOfURL: Having you ask qyestions about locking down a designed-to-be-open phone is gonna get boring. Of course there are any number of ways for someone to get around anything you want to do. |
| 22:58.12 | SpeedEvil | Why should I not be able to lock down phones that I buy as much as I like? |
| 22:58.16 | DukeOfURL | Boring or not, I have requirements for the vertical market I'll be selling into. |
| 22:58.19 | cjb | You've picked the single least appropriate phone to "disable on tampering". |
| 22:58.50 | cjb | SpeedEvil: I'm not saying you don't have the freedom to, I'm saying that from an engineering standpoint, it's wildly impractical. |
| 22:59.02 | DukeOfURL | Maybe for you. |
| 22:59.02 | SpeedEvil | IMO, not really. u-boot with added password or crypto sum. |
| 22:59.13 | SpeedEvil | glue in the debug connector. |
| 22:59.24 | abraxa_ | SpeedEvil: That was my thought, too |
| 22:59.31 | abraxa_ | The glue, that is |
| 22:59.39 | cjb | Is u-boot going to be detecting the SIM change, or is the kernel that's gonna be the first thing that gets modified? |
| 22:59.49 | SpeedEvil | How can the kernel be modified? |
| 22:59.57 | nnpiggy | I second cjb's position. There are plenty of reference phones to choose from. Why start with one specifically designed to be open to lock down? |
| 23:00.02 | SpeedEvil | If you've disabled jtag, and added signatures to DFU? |
| 23:00.06 | cjb | From userspace. u-boot does not have a monopoly on access to the NAND device. |
| 23:00.26 | cjb | You're now playing the "stop the kernel from accessing the hardware" game, which is lost by definition. |
| 23:00.26 | SpeedEvil | Well - just modify the kernel to dissalow NAND access. |
| 23:00.46 | SpeedEvil | No, the kernel accessing it is fine - if you dissalow the user from changing it. |
| 23:01.14 | cjb | Good luck with that. |
| 23:01.34 | nnpiggy | I would even say that such an effort would be poisoning the Neo1973 and OpenMoko brands. |
| 23:01.51 | SpeedEvil | IMO, not. If I buy a phone, I get to do anything with it. |
| 23:02.10 | SpeedEvil | Part of my freedom is to be able to lock it down as much as I like before giving it to my kids (for example) |
| 23:02.17 | DukeOfURL | Disagree. This phone, with several specialized apps, will be used by people that have no concept of open source or openmoko. |
| 23:02.29 | SpeedEvil | s/kids/employees/ |
| 23:02.46 | cjb | SpeedEvil: I've already said that I don't disagree with your freedom. |
| 23:02.59 | SpeedEvil | You do not have freedom if it's hardware I purchase. |
| 23:03.06 | nnpiggy | If you RESELL a phone in bulk, you are in firmly in the area of trademark law. |
| 23:03.15 | DukeOfURL | Right, since I own the phone my employees use, I'll do anything I like to keep them from tampering. |
| 23:03.38 | DukeOfURL | That's a stretch. |
| 23:03.59 | nnpiggy | Ah, yes, in that case trademark law would not apply. |
| 23:04.20 | SpeedEvil | IMO, locking down the phone is just fine, if the user is told it's locked down, and how it's locked down. |
| 23:04.46 | SpeedEvil | For example, I would be quite happy with a phone locked to one carrier, at half the price, as long as I could install my own apps on it. |
| 23:04.54 | nnpiggy | I disagree. I think it's not a nice thing to do, specifically with this phone. |
| 23:05.13 | SpeedEvil | And as long as there was some way to unlock it at the end of a contract if the user wishes. |
| 23:05.15 | rwhitby | the user always has the option of buying their own neo and sim card if they don't want a locked down phone. that's the whole underlying premise of open source. |
| 23:05.21 | *** join/#openmoko ninHer (n=ninHer@unaffiliated/ninher) |
| 23:05.22 | SpeedEvil | Exactly. |
| 23:05.45 | DukeOfURL | And if they buy their own phone then they won't have the specialized apps. |
| 23:06.06 | cjb | I don't care about the morality so much as the ridiculous irony of choosing this phone to do it with. |
| 23:06.08 | abraxa_ | I don't see the big deal here - we're not talking about crippled re-sold Neos here |
| 23:06.19 | SpeedEvil | Why irony? |
| 23:06.33 | SpeedEvil | it's a platform that you can install your own apps on and give it to users. |
| 23:07.15 | buz | but the platform wasnt built to prevent them from changing it |
| 23:07.15 | DukeOfURL | In fact, I'd like the Neo without any mention of FIC. |
| 23:07.15 | guaqua | the more fic, the better |
| 23:07.15 | DukeOfURL | Unbranded |
| 23:07.22 | buz | if you buy enough, thats certainly possible ;) |
| 23:07.34 | guaqua | the company deserves credit for being the contractor in this one |
| 23:07.38 | rwhitby | buz: the platform wasn't built to restrict your freedom to put whatever you like (including locking provisions for specialised apps) on it either. |
| 23:07.59 | SpeedEvil | I don't see a way to get round it if you disable NAND access, glue the debug port, and require code signatures on upload. For average users. |
| 23:08.06 | DukeOfURL | Maybe I'll manufacture my own case |
| 23:08.09 | SpeedEvil | Of course, chiseling away the glue is possible, or ... |
| 23:08.15 | buz | rwhitby: not disagreeing there |
| 23:08.26 | buz | but one of those hypervisor based phones would probably be better for the job |
| 23:08.29 | guaqua | DukeOfURL: or just paint over the current one |
| 23:08.30 | rwhitby | anyway, this discussion is a good one to have, specifically so the community knows how to get around such locking :-) |
| 23:08.55 | nnpiggy | :-)! |
| 23:09.01 | SpeedEvil | IMO, there should be no way to get round it. If you don't want it locked, don't buy a subsidised locked one. |
| 23:09.28 | SpeedEvil | And some locking is essentially benign. |
| 23:09.30 | rwhitby | SpeedEvil: there will always be a way around it - it's just a matter of technical expertise and resources on the part of the recipient |
| 23:09.36 | SpeedEvil | Sure. |
| 23:10.05 | rwhitby | so if you're just looking for a way to lock in the absence of jtag, that's easy. |
| 23:10.06 | SpeedEvil | However, in practice, from the hardware side, you're talking about making it uneconomic for the person down the local market to have a debug board and flash phones quickly. |
| 23:10.22 | rwhitby | if you're looking to lock even in the presence of jtag, that's much harder. |
| 23:10.35 | rwhitby | (without changing the underlying design) |
| 23:10.54 | DukeOfURL | SpeedEvil: would there be a way to install a tamper switch that would disable the phone if the case were opened? |
| 23:11.02 | rwhitby | a simple cut of the traces going to the debug connector would serve your purpose. |
| 23:11.05 | SpeedEvil | The case needs opened to change the battery. |
| 23:11.34 | DukeOfURL | No, I mean the back cover with the battery mount. |
| 23:11.41 | rwhitby | buy the phone, program it, test it, cut the traces, done. |
| 23:11.47 | SpeedEvil | Switches are hard. |
| 23:12.03 | nnpiggy | Why THIS phone? Can't we have one tiny corner of the cellular industry where we can pretend everybody is grownups and nobody wants to screw someone else? |
| 23:12.03 | SpeedEvil | It depends what you're protecting. |
| 23:12.19 | guaqua | nnpiggy: exactly :) |
| 23:12.23 | rwhitby | nnpiggy: this is not about screwing - don't paint a picture that is not there. |
| 23:12.30 | DukeOfURL | Maybe the user is not a grownup |
| 23:12.35 | SpeedEvil | Because - for example - it may be the cheapest way to implement a phone + GPS tracker for your employees. |
| 23:12.50 | DukeOfURL | or children' |
| 23:13.00 | SpeedEvil | Or it's your kids phone, and you don't want random people with access to the hardware the ability to add snooping apps. |
| 23:13.02 | guaqua | rwhitby: screwing people is the main purpose of long contracts and no clear connection of the usage and the cost |
| 23:13.22 | rwhitby | guaqua: that's not what anyone is talking about here. |
| 23:13.30 | nnpiggy | 7 years designing cellular infrastructure has left me with a bitter taste. |
| 23:13.33 | guaqua | well, to be blunt... |
| 23:13.42 | guaqua | it's what locking is mainly used for |
| 23:13.53 | nnpiggy | Oh yes, the "we must protect the children" argument. |
| 23:13.53 | SpeedEvil | Buy your own phone, and you get none of the issues. |
| 23:14.07 | SpeedEvil | If they are my children, then I get to protect them. |
| 23:14.37 | SpeedEvil | I expect my children to have mobiles before they can reliably enter passwords. |
| 23:14.46 | rwhitby | gentlemen, you need to be able to separate technical arguments from freedom arguments. |
| 23:14.56 | SpeedEvil | I do not want the phone to be trojanable, however unlikely that is. |
| 23:15.02 | guaqua | well who in this scenario of yours is going to tamper with the software of your kid's phone? |
| 23:15.04 | DukeOfURL | who's flaming? This is an intelligent discussion with many different points of view. |
| 23:15.27 | rwhitby | if someone wants to have a technical discussion about how to do things with this platform, please don't try and turn it into a freedom discussion. both have their places, and should be able to be discussed separately. |
| 23:15.31 | SpeedEvil | guaqua: Anyone who wants to snoop on them or me. |
| 23:15.33 | DukeOfURL | Maybe he himself will tamper with it. |
| 23:15.47 | SpeedEvil | For whatever reason. |
| 23:15.47 | guaqua | SpeedEvil: and how are they going to succeed in it? |
| 23:16.08 | SpeedEvil | The phone will have no password - as it's for a 5 year old. - for example. |
| 23:16.24 | SpeedEvil | I do not want anyone other than me to be able to install anything on the phone. |
| 23:16.30 | DukeOfURL | When I say children I mean teens with a driver's license. |
| 23:16.31 | guaqua | and for what reason would a 5-year old need a phone? |
| 23:16.35 | rwhitby | SpeedEvil: don't feel you need to justify your reasons. stick to the technical discussion. |
| 23:16.44 | DukeOfURL | SpeedEvil: This is what I need in the phone: http://dovelet.en.alibaba.com/product/50156162/51223873/Gas_Sensors/Ethanol_and_Alcohol_Sensor.html |
| 23:16.56 | rwhitby | guaqua: why even ask that question? it's his phone. |
| 23:16.57 | SpeedEvil | Fundamentally. |
| 23:17.03 | SpeedEvil | I buy the phone, I make the rules. |
| 23:17.16 | DukeOfURL | You drive my truck, I make the rules. |
| 23:17.17 | guaqua | i'd like to hear some other possible scenarios where locking would be necessary |
| 23:17.19 | SpeedEvil | The kid/employee buys the phone, he makes the rules. |
| 23:17.37 | SpeedEvil | If the phone has a time managment app on it for employees. |
| 23:17.38 | rwhitby | I pay for the phone calls you make, I make the rules. |
| 23:17.57 | rwhitby | you want to make the rules, swap in your own sim. |
| 23:17.57 | guaqua | SpeedEvil: that i can understand |
| 23:17.59 | SpeedEvil | Or whatever that they could make money from by tampering. |
| 23:18.11 | rwhitby | SpeedEvil: you could make the app only work if a certain sim is inserted, but still allow other sims. |
| 23:18.21 | guaqua | but in general i see very little morally sound reasons for locking a phone |
| 23:18.22 | SpeedEvil | Err - no. |
| 23:18.37 | rwhitby | please separate morality from technical discussions. |
| 23:18.39 | SpeedEvil | For most apps you don't care about the SIM. |
| 23:19.14 | SpeedEvil | For example if it's a employee tracking app, or a data entry app, or ... The employee does not get to alter existing data. |
| 23:19.17 | guaqua | rwhitby: well it's kinda late since it started as one? |
| 23:19.52 | rwhitby | guaqua: no, SpeedEvil started this as a technical discussion of how to lock a phone. |
| 23:19.53 | SpeedEvil | Of course, if there is enough money in it, you're going to need to invest in a secure platform, as there are ways to get round this locking. |
| 23:20.42 | rwhitby | sorry, DukeOfURL actually started the technical discussion. |
| 23:20.52 | guaqua | well, off course if you despise ideological conversation |
| 23:20.55 | guaqua | i might as well shut up |
| 23:21.07 | guaqua | and forget the fundamental ideas of open source |
| 23:21.17 | rwhitby | guaqua: I love ideological discussions. but separate from technical ones. |
| 23:21.36 | rwhitby | guaqua: check my open source record at www.rwhitby.net if you like. |
| 23:21.44 | guaqua | cut the cords, wasn't that it? |
| 23:21.54 | SpeedEvil | With my finances as they are - I might even be willing to look at 'free' neo phones with relatively long contracts. Even if this means the MSPs apps are #1 and #2 in the list, and it's locked to their provider. As long as I can add my own apps that can take over the display and other hardware. |
| 23:21.57 | DukeOfURL | This is not about open source, it's about buying phones from FIC and placing them in very specialized vertical markets. |
| 23:22.19 | guaqua | i have seen no real conversation about technology related |
| 23:22.23 | SpeedEvil | As the cheapest phone contract I've found for data would give me a 'free' phone in many cases. |
| 23:22.33 | SpeedEvil | which I don't want. |
| 23:22.58 | SpeedEvil | (t-mobile, 7 pound 50 GPRS unlimited, but only with 30 quid/mo contract) |
| 23:23.21 | DukeOfURL | Is that the walled garden? |
| 23:23.25 | SpeedEvil | No. |
| 23:23.35 | SpeedEvil | AIUI. 'web and walk' |
| 23:23.56 | SpeedEvil | fair use of 40M/day |
| 23:24.00 | SpeedEvil | which is very reasonable. |
| 23:24.39 | DukeOfURL | Assuming the alcohol sensor is a variable resistance device, is there anywhere to connect it to the Neo? |
| 23:24.52 | SpeedEvil | There is going to be an exposed I2C bus. |
| 23:24.54 | rwhitby | guaqua: an equally good technical discussion to have is how to break such locking schemes. |
| 23:25.12 | SpeedEvil | You can hook whatever to that I2C bus, including ADCs. |
| 23:25.29 | DukeOfURL | cool |
| 23:25.45 | guaqua | 01:11 < rwhitby> buy the phone, program it, test it, cut the traces, done. |
| 23:25.47 | guaqua | there was it |
| 23:25.52 | SpeedEvil | thermometers, extra USB host chips, memory, audio mixers, ... |
| 23:25.56 | rwhitby | if you don't have both technical arguments (without separating the equally valid ideological discussion), then you will never have the technical tools you need to implement your ideology. |
| 23:26.05 | *** join/#openmoko l4rs (n=laprican@hsiproxy.astra-net.com) |
| 23:27.13 | SpeedEvil | And is it really true that any user can fiddle with the NAND? If so that's a bit broken. |
| 23:27.42 | *** join/#openmoko msroest (n=msroest@S01060040f41dad58.cg.shawcable.net) |
| 23:27.42 | koen|recife | SpeedEvil: only root or someone with uboot access |
| 23:27.49 | SpeedEvil | Ah, that makes sense. |
| 23:27.52 | SpeedEvil | (or JTAG) |
| 23:27.53 | koen|recife | SpeedEvil: but then again, anyone can take a hammer to your phone |
| 23:28.05 | DukeOfURL | Is the NAND physically removable? |
| 23:28.07 | SpeedEvil | Taking a hammer to the phone doesn't get them the data. |
| 23:28.10 | SpeedEvil | yes. |
| 23:28.14 | SpeedEvil | it's annoying, but possible. |
| 23:28.23 | SpeedEvil | Keeping the key in RAM helps. |
| 23:28.50 | SpeedEvil | then it becomes really annoying to extract it and decrypt whatever's on the NAND. |
| 23:29.16 | rwhitby | SpeedEvil: anyone with access to the jtag traces on the board can get to the nand. |
| 23:29.21 | SpeedEvil | Sure. |
| 23:29.26 | SpeedEvil | Doesn't help if it's encrypted. |
| 23:29.51 | SpeedEvil | Though of course there are ways to get the key. |
| 23:29.59 | rwhitby | yep, and that's an important technical point for data privacy reasons too. |
| 23:30.22 | rwhitby | (i.e. you don't want someone who finds your lost phone able to get to the jtag traces and read your bank details) |
| 23:30.26 | SpeedEvil | You pretty much need a modified case with tamper detection at least to protect from that. |
| 23:30.53 | SpeedEvil | yeah - mistype PIN a couple of times, and bang goes the in-RAM key. |
| 23:31.03 | SpeedEvil | you've got to enter a much longer passphrase to enable. |
| 23:31.12 | rwhitby | tamper detection done properly will be cost prohibitive for this price range. |
| 23:31.15 | SpeedEvil | Optional of course. |
| 23:31.19 | Psi_ | small amount of C4 inside ya phone, if you lose it, BOOM, no more data on phone, no more phone! |
| 23:31.22 | Psi_ | hehe |
| 23:31.31 | vmaster | hehehe |
| 23:31.34 | DukeOfURL | no, THERMITE |
| 23:31.43 | Psi_ | heh |
| 23:32.12 | DukeOfURL | Ever see what a thermite grenade does to a mortar tube? |
| 23:32.49 | rwhitby | DukeOfURL: NAND is soldered on, but can be removed with the right tools of course. |
| 23:33.18 | DukeOfURL | ok, my users aren't that smart. but their friends may be. |
| 23:33.56 | DukeOfURL | this has been a good discussion. Thank you SpeedEvil and rwhitby and others. |
| 23:34.24 | rwhitby | now, we can discuss how to break such schemes :-) |
| 23:34.35 | rwhitby | anyone heard of pogo-pins? |
| 23:34.56 | vmaster | what's that? |
| 23:35.04 | rwhitby | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogo_pin |
| 23:35.13 | SpeedEvil | If someone has hardware access to the phone, and it has the key still in RAM, then you are vulnerable to skilled funded opponents. |
| 23:35.38 | rwhitby | you design a board with pogo-pins in the right places, and some way to align it with the device under test, and it gets you access to jtag traces. |
| 23:35.43 | SpeedEvil | These however are not the people 99.999% of people have to worry about. |
| 23:35.57 | vmaster | ah, ok |
| 23:36.24 | rwhitby | especially with P0 - they need to keep it powered all the way to their specialised lab :-) |
| 23:36.31 | DukeOfURL | About the SIM, my RAZR stores the address book on the SIM. How many entries will the SIM handle? |
| 23:36.35 | SpeedEvil | If you have a one-time-pad in the phone, then you may be worried about them :) |
| 23:36.42 | rwhitby | DukeOfURL: depends on the size of the sim |
| 23:36.50 | DukeOfURL | Cingular |
| 23:36.51 | rwhitby | (you can get 64Kb, 256Kb, etc I think) |
| 23:37.07 | vmaster | my first SIM card would only hold up to about 50 contacts |
| 23:37.14 | vmaster | haven't managed to fill the current one |
| 23:37.37 | rwhitby | wikipedia says "SIMs are available in many storage sizes, the largest being the 512 KB SIM. Smaller sized SIMs such as the 32 KB and 16 KB are most prevalent in area with less developed GSM networks. There are also Large Memory SIMs, in the order of 128 - 512 Mega Bytes." |
| 23:37.55 | DukeOfURL | Can the phone determine the format of the user data on the SIM? |
| 23:38.28 | roh | DukeOfURL the format is the same. afaik standardized in some part of gsm |
| 23:38.44 | vmaster | there's got to be some kind of standard, as you can keep your contacts while switching phones |
| 23:38.53 | roh | DukeOfURL just the amount of contacts/sms and such is limited and different from size to size |
| 23:39.11 | *** join/#openmoko wvdschel (n=wvdschel@vpna184.ugent.be) |
| 23:39.13 | rwhitby | yeah, the interface to the sim is in the 3gpp specs. |
| 23:39.18 | wvdschel | hi |
| 23:39.20 | DukeOfURL | Is there a user-defined field in the address book that we can play with? |
| 23:39.47 | wvdschel | Is there some kind of emulation available for the neo1973? |
| 23:39.56 | SpeedEvil | faq? |
| 23:39.57 | aloril | See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ |
| 23:39.59 | peepsalot | if you want to deter desoldering, just smear epoxy over the chips. it won't make it impossible, but will deter it, and you should definitely be able to tell if it was tampered with at least. |
| 23:40.15 | SpeedEvil | yes |
| 23:40.29 | DukeOfURL | I promised the wife I would take her to dinner. Thanks for all your input. |
| 23:40.37 | SpeedEvil | To make it really annoying - squirt it _under_ the chips. |
| 23:40.44 | roh | mine here holds 250 contacts + 20sms or so.. i store most data on the phone. faster access and more fields for contacts than on the sim |
| 23:40.45 | SpeedEvil | Amongst the balls. |
| 23:41.01 | rwhitby | TS 11.14 is one of the main sim specs I think |
| 23:41.49 | SpeedEvil | Hmm. |
| 23:42.04 | SpeedEvil | I wonder what'd happen if you put a small bit of pyro stuff under the NAND. |
| 23:42.10 | SpeedEvil | After soldering. |
| 23:42.19 | SpeedEvil | That'd burst into flame at 200C. |
| 23:42.39 | *** join/#openmoko ajturner (n=ajturner@c-68-42-68-205.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) |
| 23:42.44 | SpeedEvil | Not much flame. Just enough to shatter the chip. |
| 23:42.54 | roh | SpeedEvil if you want to secure data nothing will help. |
| 23:43.00 | SpeedEvil | Yeah - I know. |
| 23:43.05 | SpeedEvil | You need a secure case. |
| 23:43.05 | roh | crypt it, or just forget it |
| 23:43.08 | SpeedEvil | Tamper detection. |
| 23:43.17 | SpeedEvil | and destroy the key on tamper. |
| 23:43.23 | roh | SpeedEvil kiddieshit.. look at paytv and learn |
| 23:43.28 | *** join/#openmoko guerby (n=guerby@gut75-4-82-235-162-148.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 23:43.36 | SpeedEvil | Yes, I know all the assorted tricks. |
| 23:43.47 | SpeedEvil | The right way to do it is to put it all on one die. |
| 23:43.55 | SpeedEvil | Then it gets really quite expensive indeed. |
| 23:44.41 | roh | wrong.. you would need crypto on multiple places. e.g. crypted ram which gets crypted and decrypted on the cpu. so tapping ram does not help |
| 23:44.51 | guaqua | "neo", the first phone with self-destructing memory |
| 23:45.12 | guaqua | it could actually sell |
| 23:45.17 | SpeedEvil | I know. I've written on this. I was meaning _all_ on one die. |
| 23:45.23 | SpeedEvil | NAND, CPU, RAM |
| 23:45.29 | SpeedEvil | horribly expensive of course. |
| 23:45.46 | roh | not really..., look at sigma designs soc |
| 23:46.10 | *** join/#openmoko ajturner (n=ajturner@c-68-42-68-205.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) |
| 23:46.56 | roh | they call it secure multimedia soc or so.. can crypt ram, flash and has a embedded otp for signatures/keys |
| 23:47.12 | roh | and the hardware sells for <200E customerprice |
| 23:47.46 | SpeedEvil | Yeah - I was meaning one with 128M RAM, 64M flash, cpu similar to neo, ... |
| 23:49.04 | roh | SpeedEvil its a mips core but its the same range of power.. just not the same mechanical size |
| 23:50.51 | SpeedEvil | Security is easy. |
| 23:51.03 | SpeedEvil | Cheap, small, well-done security is hard. |
| 23:51.55 | abraxa_ | rwhitby: Do you happen to have PMs on ignore by chance? |
| 23:52.00 | roh | the first one is not what it says it is then |
