| 00:00.30 | LuitvD | I think many things come down to bad communication... |
| 00:00.39 | LarstiQ | LuitvD: a bug can be reintroduced all kinds of ways, a testsuite is one way to catch regressions |
| 00:00.42 | LuitvD | (good thing we have this channel here :) ) |
| 00:01.21 | alphaone | SpeedEvil: Like that? echo -ne "\x80" > /dev/ttySAC1 |
| 00:01.27 | LarstiQ | sure, having svn will prevent lots of reintroductions over just copying directories around :) |
| 00:01.39 | SpeedEvil | It's supposed to need lots of 0x80's. |
| 00:01.48 | SpeedEvil | 100 should be safe. |
| 00:01.57 | LarstiQ | LuitvD: but I've seen the same thinko being made more than once in version controlled projects |
| 00:02.54 | LuitvD | i think this OneCare-deletion-bug-reappearance is either because of using the wrong code (bad codebase management), or because of someone reintroducing a 'feature' who didn't know the dangers of (bad communication) |
| 00:02.58 | LuitvD | or both :) |
| 00:03.47 | LuitvD | guess both apply to microsoft because they try to manage every single aspect of an operating system, using a gigantic team of developers that don't really code for the things they want to code for |
| 00:04.24 | alphaone | SpeedEvil: Doesn't seem to affect it at all |
| 00:04.25 | Elrond | *G* |
| 00:04.34 | Elrond | alphaone - It wont answer. ;-) |
| 00:04.48 | Elrond | alphaone - Now send a 0xfa und see, if it answers. :) |
| 00:05.29 | SpeedEvil | Sigh |
| 00:06.20 | SpeedEvil | or send as 'ascii' /dev/urandom |
| 00:06.24 | Elrond | alphaone - It should answer with a single byte. |
| 00:06.32 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - *G* |
| 00:06.41 | alphaone | Nope |
| 00:06.54 | Elrond | hmpf. |
| 00:08.06 | alphaone | :-/ |
| 00:08.33 | Elrond | alphaone - How have you done "send 0xfa, wait for one char"? |
| 00:11.16 | *** join/#openmoko billstevenson (n=billstev@c-71-58-61-130.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 00:12.08 | alphaone | Elrond: Yes |
| 00:12.26 | alphaone | echo > on one shell and cat on the other |
| 00:12.49 | Elrond | Ahh. :-) |
| 00:14.03 | Elrond | I never tried this echo/cat combination... |
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| 00:17.58 | Elrond | Hmmm. |
| 00:17.58 | Elrond | Is cat buffering? |
| 00:19.24 | Elrond | dd if=/dev/ttysomething bs=1 |
| 00:19.25 | Elrond | ? |
| 00:20.03 | Elrond | Not to mention I haven't used stty to set 8n1 for ages. |
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| 00:29.54 | alphaone | Elrond: That always worked for me.. |
| 00:30.08 | alphaone | What should I set the tty to? |
| 00:31.46 | SpeedEvil | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:33.09 | alphaone | SpeedEvil: What speed |
| 00:34.05 | *** part/#openmoko lincman (n=LINCMAN@adsl-216-102-232-14.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net) |
| 00:34.42 | SpeedEvil | It's relatively unimportant. |
| 00:34.45 | SpeedEvil | it autosyncs |
| 00:34.56 | SpeedEvil | tot eh stream of 0x80's it's sent. |
| 00:35.27 | alphaone | well, I tried that without any success |
| 00:35.28 | SpeedEvil | 38400 should be safe. |
| 00:35.30 | Elrond | Well, the speed should be probably not less than 4800. |
| 00:35.56 | Elrond | Right, 38.4 sounds good. |
| 00:37.17 | Elrond | alphaone - And 8n1. |
| 00:38.06 | alphaone | yeah |
| 00:38.15 | CoreDump|home | anyone here got an untouched /e/n/interfaces on his neo and could pastebin it? |
| 00:38.20 | SpeedEvil | I'd try the /dev/urandom thing next if it doesn't. |
| 00:38.37 | alphaone | SpeedEvil: Just did that, too |
| 00:39.31 | SpeedEvil | hmmm. |
| 00:40.29 | SpeedEvil | I'd now try putting a multimeyter on the battery to read current iut - to see if gps was really on. |
| 00:40.36 | SpeedEvil | but... |
| 00:42.15 | Elrond | Or put a dso probe at the gps chip. ;o) |
| 00:42.41 | SpeedEvil | power is easier |
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| 00:44.07 | Elrond | apropos: Did you find your PSU? |
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| 00:47.20 | Elrond | all of this adds to my suspicion, that the reset pin on the gps is not set correctly in the power_up-cycle. |
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| 01:01.59 | Elrond | Night people. |
| 01:02.20 | Readon | | -- |
| 01:02.20 | Readon | | Successfully terminated. |
| 01:02.20 | Readon | | Collected errors: |
| 01:02.20 | Readon | | ERROR: Cannot satisfy the following dependencies for task-openmoko-demo: |
| 01:02.20 | Readon | | mplayer |
| 01:02.20 | Readon | | -- |
| 01:02.38 | alphaone | Night Elrond |
| 01:02.46 | wansti | Night Elrond |
| 01:03.14 | Readon | I have never built successfully.... |
| 01:10.38 | aevin | Readon: are you using MokoMakefile? |
| 01:12.02 | Readon | aevin, yes |
| 01:12.57 | aevin | is it a long time since yourlast source update, i.e. "make update"? |
| 01:13.25 | *** join/#openmoko jipi (n=jipi@mnc07.mei.co.jp) |
| 01:13.42 | aevin | i read something a couple of days ago that mplayer was taken out of the openmoko-devel-image build receipe. |
| 01:14.39 | Readon | i updated it yesterday |
| 01:14.43 | aevin | Readon: btw, what target machine are you building for? (in your build/conf/local.conf ) |
| 01:15.26 | Readon | fic-gta01 i think |
| 01:15.33 | aevin | okay. |
| 01:16.11 | aevin | i think you should try an update and then rebuild. |
| 01:16.37 | Readon | i just rebuild it totally yesterday. |
| 01:19.24 | aevin | i have no idea, then. isn't there a log file with further error info? |
| 01:20.11 | rwhitby | the mplayer one might be a real problem |
| 01:21.14 | rwhitby | hmm - no, my rebuild overnight worked. |
| 01:21.35 | rwhitby | Readon: please pastebin the output of "make update-makefile ; make update ; make setup ; make all" |
| 01:22.02 | Readon | ok, i will do it in a minutes |
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| 02:01.27 | Psi_ | i see someone said the word mplayer |
| 02:02.47 | Readon | yes, we are |
| 02:03.02 | Readon | <Readon> | ERROR: Cannot satisfy the following dependencies for task-openmoko-demo: |
| 02:03.03 | Readon | <Readon> | mplayer |
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| 03:25.42 | Readon | aevin, this is the error reported. http://rafb.net/p/9VOgmU15.html |
| 03:26.51 | aevin | Readon: sory, but I was just about to *zzz*. maybe rwhitby can have a look at it. |
| 03:27.09 | aevin | *hopefully trigger his highlighting* |
| 03:27.48 | rwhitby | yep |
| 03:27.51 | aevin | s/sory/sorry/ |
| 03:27.52 | Readon | http://rafb.net/p/9VOgmU15.html |
| 03:28.00 | Readon | ^^ |
| 03:29.56 | rwhitby | try bitbake -c clean task-openmoko-demo then rerun make |
| 03:30.24 | rwhitby | (do that in the build dir, after sourcing ../setup-env) |
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| 03:33.02 | Readon | ERROR: Unable to open conf/bitbake.conf |
| 03:33.12 | Readon | ? |
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| 03:37.52 | aloril | microSD writing/reading bug (in reality > 64MB memory corruption bug) fix is literally 1 bit change in source ;-) |
| 03:37.59 | aloril | http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=245 |
| 03:45.40 | parag0n | :) |
| 03:45.57 | parag0n | you never know, we may have a usable phone by p1! |
| 03:46.16 | rwhitby | Readon: did you source setup-env like I said? |
| 03:50.34 | rwhitby | Readon: ? |
| 03:54.01 | Readon | source setup-env? |
| 03:54.02 | rwhitby | Readon: ? |
| 03:54.36 | rwhitby | cd build |
| 03:54.40 | rwhitby | source ../setup-env |
| 03:54.47 | rwhitby | bitbake -c clean ...... |
| 03:56.35 | Readon | roger |
| 04:03.07 | aloril | (nothing new really, though this is linked from news.google.com) http://blogs.pcworld.co.nz/pcworld/techsploder/2007/03/openmoko_makes_total_sense.html |
| 04:05.23 | *** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru) |
| 04:06.00 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03rwhitby * r53 10mokomakefile/trunk/Makefile: Added build-package-* and clean-package-* targets |
| 04:08.45 | aloril | problems getting "text-mode phone interface" working: http://pavelmachek.livejournal.com/35666.html |
| 04:10.47 | rwhitby | not a very good blog entry. Perhaps he should use the supported toolchain ... |
| 04:12.17 | peepsalot | aloril, there is nothing at your tui.sf.net page that you link to. just and "Index of /" directory listing with nothing in it. |
| 04:12.20 | *** join/#openmoko dirakx (n=judith@200.58.198.4) |
| 04:13.41 | peepsalot | ah, nevermind, that link belongs to pavelm |
| 04:13.59 | aloril | rwhitby, peepsalot: don't know more about it than blog I linked to (except possibly same person as pavelm in this channel (not present now)) |
| 04:14.22 | aloril | "2007 will be exciting, oh yea…" http://diary.e-gandalf.net/2007/03/07/2007-will-be-exciting-oh-yea/ |
| 04:14.41 | aloril | blah, topic is twice there ;-) |
| 04:15.48 | rwhitby | aloril: yep, my comment wasn't directed at you specifically. just a general point that phase0 developers shouldn't really complain if they are not using the supported toolchain. |
| 04:18.44 | aloril | blog: http://technofrek.blogspot.com/2007/03/linux-smartphones.html |
| 04:19.45 | aloril | "including a torque screwdriver" 'scores point' ;-) http://torque-screwdriver.dewaltpowertoolsite.com/35373/ |
| 04:20.21 | peepsalot | i think that technofrek blog copied that whole article from somewhere else. I remember seeing it a few days ago on digg i think, but IIRC was a different site |
| 04:23.08 | aloril | peepsalot: that might, it did look a bit familiar |
| 04:25.21 | peepsalot | and it's called a torx screwdriver |
| 04:26.37 | peepsalot | i hate blogs |
| 04:26.37 | bhima | I read "torque screwdriver" and was thinking of one with adjustable torque. |
| 04:27.19 | bhima | Here's a great blog: http://bosker.wordpress.com/ |
| 04:27.27 | bhima | I wish I could understand some of it. |
| 04:29.55 | peepsalot | i like functor, cool sounding word |
| 04:30.12 | bhima | The guy who pointed me to it said, "This guy has a super awesome category theory blog." |
| 04:30.39 | peepsalot | s/Functor/Functor of Blog Slaying |
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| 04:50.31 | peepsalot | hmm, is the hole above the neo1973 logo really the mic? |
| 04:53.00 | rwhitby | that's the speaker |
| 04:54.11 | peepsalot | ok, just checking because i saw some confusion about that in an article online |
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| 05:08.41 | Readon | rwhitby, the same problem appears |
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| 07:49.11 | Hopscotch | good morning |
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| 08:01.49 | antenagora_study | morning |
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| 08:04.42 | ping_tu | I get Makefile, make setup success, and run to make openmoko-devel-image,this an error, |
| 08:04.42 | ping_tu | regex.c:132:error:previours declaration of 'malloc' was here |
| 08:04.42 | ping_tu | who can tell me why? |
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| 08:09.47 | Readon | http://rafb.net/p/9VOgmU15.html |
| 08:10.14 | Readon | anyone met this before? |
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| 08:27.04 | pH5 | Readon: mplayer is built? look at /home/sbox/moko/build/tmp/work/fic-gta01-linux/openmoko-devel-image-1.0-r0/temp/log.do_rootfs.6330 to check why the mplayer dependency cannot be satisfied. |
| 08:30.17 | bluelightning | woot! fixed my sticky ALT button... just the tiniest spray of contact cleaner was all that was necessary |
| 08:31.30 | Readon | Configuring zeroconf |
| 08:31.31 | Readon | Successfully terminated. |
| 08:31.31 | Readon | Collected errors: |
| 08:31.31 | Readon | ERROR: Cannot satisfy the following dependencies for task-openmoko-demo: |
| 08:31.31 | Readon | <PROTECTED> |
| 08:31.31 | Readon | + export D=/home/sbox/moko/build/tmp/rootfs |
| 08:31.33 | Readon | + D=/home/sbox/moko/build/tmp/rootfs |
| 08:31.37 | Readon | there is no reason |
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| 08:50.57 | pH5 | Readon: hm, no idea then. I'd try to run bitbake with -vvv/-DDD. or maybe there is a version mismatch between what mplayer provides and what task-openmoko-demo wants. |
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| 08:59.46 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03laforge * r1322 10/trunk/oe/packages/openmoko-apps/openmoko-simplemediaplayer_svn.bb: add datadir/applications and datadir/images on request of Ken Zhao. |
| 09:00.41 | rwhitby | Readon: why don't you just comment out mplayer from task-openmoko-demo so it will continue to the end |
| 09:03.33 | Readon | rwhitby, i am not familiar with oe, is there a file task-openmoko-demo.bb? |
| 09:19.25 | hrw | rwhitby: can you help me with gsm modem? |
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| 09:20.21 | hrw | rwhitby: I do not have anything usin gsm modem port, it is powered but when I connect to it with cu or picocom then no response and application is frozen |
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| 09:24.05 | aloril | consider 2 cases: closed WiFi driver for chip which in theory can do illegal frequences and GSM modem software stack |
| 09:24.23 | aloril | both are clearly legal or at least accepted by FCC for example |
| 09:24.53 | aloril | why would these *binaries* become illegal if they release source code? |
| 09:25.46 | *** join/#openmoko florian (n=fuchs@217.146.132.69) |
| 09:25.48 | hrw | because you can tweak it to go beyond? |
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| 09:25.50 | hrw | hi Fletch |
| 09:25.52 | hrw | hi florian |
| 09:26.14 | aloril | hrw: you can buy other hardware where you can do anything already ;-) |
| 09:27.40 | florian | hi all |
| 09:28.19 | bluelightning | hi florian, hrw |
| 09:28.54 | hrw | can someone help me with gsm modem? |
| 09:28.58 | pH5 | hrw: stefan_schmidt and I have the same problem, http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=256 |
| 09:29.00 | *** join/#openmoko balrog-kun (i=balrog@174-mo5-1.acn.waw.pl) |
| 09:29.09 | hrw | thx pH5 |
| 09:29.25 | aloril | is this actually assumption that things must be closed or is there some statement (by FCC for example) that says so? |
| 09:29.54 | alp | aloril: if you are a hardware vendor and you want to minimise the risk that your users abuse the device, you'd choose chipsets that have the least history of being "hacked" |
| 09:30.24 | *** join/#openmoko meandtheshell (n=markus@85-124-207-193.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at) |
| 09:31.59 | aloril | alp: is hardware vendor responsible if user abuses the device? |
| 09:33.17 | alp | aloril: yes, it adds the risk that their name will be tarnished when the hacks get publicised on the register, slashdot etc. and also when they get loads of RMAs |
| 09:34.12 | xkr47 | "The killed used a Fiskars knife" |
| 09:34.23 | xkr47 | killer* |
| 09:34.25 | hrw | pH5: added myself to #256 list |
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| 09:34.49 | aloril | alp: OK, but this is not legal requirement though, just 'soft' pr thing |
| 09:35.18 | alp | aloril: i agree. they might claim it's a "legal department" decision but it's really damage control, less effort |
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| 09:36.08 | alp | for the few winmodems that were fully supported by open source drivers, i don't think we ever saw cool hacks that pushed the hardware beyond its specification |
| 09:37.58 | *** join/#openmoko Stephmw (n=steph@212.69.51.139) |
| 09:38.22 | hrw | other serial question: does someone got gps part working? |
| 09:38.29 | buz | mhh if hacks get to slashdot, the vendor gains (at least in case of linksys and the like) |
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| 09:40.18 | rwhitby | Readon: the "find" utility is your friend. |
| 09:40.34 | rwhitby | hrw: I've been able to make a gsm call - want to run through it? |
| 09:40.39 | *** join/#openmoko greentux (n=lemke@ip-217-18-181-130.static.reverse.dsi.net) |
| 09:40.57 | *** join/#openmoko balrog-kun (i=balrog@174-mo5-1.acn.waw.pl) |
| 09:41.09 | Readon | rwhitby, i know but i did not find any file named task-openmoko-demo.bb |
| 09:41.37 | rwhitby | look in openembedded/packages/tasks/task-openmoko.bb |
| 09:41.57 | hrw | pH5: added link to that bug into 'manually_using_gsm' wiki page |
| 09:42.07 | *** join/#openmoko dom (n=dom@juicy.ecs.soton.ac.uk) |
| 09:42.10 | hrw | rwhitby: my device hang on connecting to modem |
| 09:42.17 | *** join/#openmoko dom_ (n=dom@juicy.ecs.soton.ac.uk) |
| 09:43.57 | rwhitby | hrw: ok, let's step through http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Manually_using_GSM |
| 09:44.06 | rwhitby | you've changed u-boot menu to use usbtty? |
| 09:44.50 | antenagora_study | counter |
| 09:44.51 | aloril | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review P1: 2 weeks, 6 days 02:15:09 (20.094 +-7.0 days) (see faq) (523) |
| 09:45.05 | *** part/#openmoko antenagora_study (n=antenago@147.162.137.251) |
| 09:46.04 | hrw | rwhitby: last time when I was using uboot menu it was set to console. |
| 09:46.20 | rwhitby | usbtty? or serial console? |
| 09:46.23 | hrw | rwhitby: I also disabled serial console in kernel cmdline |
| 09:46.25 | hrw | rwhitby: rootfstype=jffs2 root=/dev/mtdblock4 console=tty0 mtdparts=neo1973-nand:0x00040000(u-boot),0x00004000(u-boot_env),0x00200000(kernel),0x000a0000(splash),0x03d1c000(rootfs) |
| 09:46.44 | rwhitby | hrw: now, this is the u-boot menu you get when you hold in the AUX key on power-up |
| 09:46.47 | rwhitby | s/now/no/ |
| 09:47.22 | rwhitby | you shouldn't need to disable it on kernel cmdline |
| 09:47.33 | XorA | so the openmoko laser pointer goes at least 200 yards :-) |
| 09:47.47 | pH5 | XorA: you should add that to the wiki ;) |
| 09:48.37 | hrw | rwhitby: I'm now in bootmenu - 'console to usb' has to be set - right? |
| 09:48.49 | rwhitby | right |
| 09:48.59 | hrw | rwhitby: and boot now? |
| 09:49.02 | rwhitby | yep |
| 09:49.07 | hrw | booting |
| 09:49.36 | rwhitby | then when you get to linux cmdline, edit /etc/inittab to disable getty on ttySAC0 |
| 09:49.47 | hrw | disabled already |
| 09:50.13 | rwhitby | and lsof | grep ttySAC0 reports nothing using it? |
| 09:50.23 | hrw | moment - booting still |
| 09:50.45 | hrw | nothing |
| 09:50.57 | Stephmw | mornin |
| 09:51.08 | hrw | echo "1" > /sys/bus/platform/devices/gta01-pm-gsm.0/power_on |
| 09:51.10 | hrw | done |
| 09:51.23 | hrw | got <6>gta01-pm-gsm gta01-pm-gsm.0: powering up GSM, thus disconnecting serial console |
| 09:51.26 | hrw | in dmesg |
| 09:52.04 | hrw | picocom /dev/ttySAC0 gave "terminal ready" and hang |
| 09:54.06 | *** join/#openmoko Magon (n=Magon@archangel.kolej.mff.cuni.cz) |
| 09:55.43 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@dsl093-060-111.pit1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 09:55.51 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03werner * r1323 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/early-powerdown.patch: |
| 09:55.52 | CIA-7 | openmoko: board/neo1973/neo1973.c (board_init): power down immediately if we haven't been woken up by the power button or the RTC. This can be overridden by pressing |
| 09:55.52 | CIA-7 | openmoko: AUX, i.e., to allow resets to succeed. |
| 09:55.52 | CIA-7 | openmoko: Experimental ! Note that this change means that the phone has to be powered up |
| 09:55.53 | CIA-7 | openmoko: manually in order to fast-charge when a charger is connected. |
| 09:56.50 | pH5 | same here (cu -l /dev/ttySAC0 shows "Connected." and then nothing more). |
| 09:57.17 | hrw | I recommend picocom - does not need fancy permissions |
| 09:58.10 | rwhitby | hrw: you don't get "AT-Command Interpreter Ready"? |
| 09:58.53 | hrw | rwhitby: exactly |
| 09:59.10 | rwhitby | hrw: I'd talk to stefan_schmidt then. |
| 10:02.01 | hrw | yep |
| 10:03.39 | *** join/#openmoko mrlua (n=typn@unaffiliated/chairuou) |
| 10:06.26 | *** join/#openmoko parag0n (n=parag0n@popeshoe.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 10:10.16 | *** join/#openmoko gambler (n=orion@203-206-59-67.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 10:10.23 | *** join/#openmoko jicknan (n=jick@222.92.90.170) |
| 10:13.46 | *** join/#openmoko mave_pan (i=me@nat/ibm/x-60937cf7b2c87bc7) |
| 10:14.49 | *** join/#openmoko atla (n=atla@p3EE3D0BE.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 10:27.30 | hrw | someone got some kind of output from gps chip? |
| 10:27.36 | CoreDump|afk | hrw: I wish =) |
| 10:31.14 | hrw | someone here is familiar with blueprobe script from OE? it can be used to turn on BT on boot.. |
| 10:31.52 | jeddy3 | has anyone confirmed that bluetooth ethernet bridge works? |
| 10:32.00 | SpeedEvil | Is there any way on the wiki to get 'diffs only' for the last days changes? I.E. a big list of diffs? |
| 10:32.11 | SpeedEvil | jeddy3: IIRC, yes. |
| 10:32.36 | jeddy3 | nice |
| 10:33.04 | hrw | jeddy3: bnep works for me |
| 10:33.07 | CoreDump|afk | jeddy3: yes, works fine |
| 10:33.11 | alphaone | jebba: Yes |
| 10:33.20 | *** join/#openmoko MacNorth_ (n=daijobu@c-67-174-113-128.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 10:33.22 | alphaone | I surfed via bluetooth |
| 10:33.43 | jeddy3 | ok, nice! thanks everybody |
| 10:34.41 | alphaone | Has anyone succeeded in making the phone discoverable? |
| 10:34.44 | jeddy3 | thats a reasonable replacement for wifi for me at home |
| 10:34.51 | pH5 | hrw: the blueprobe script isn't of much use for usb dongles |
| 10:35.00 | pH5 | alphaone: hciconfig hci0 piscan |
| 10:35.17 | *** join/#openmoko libervisco (n=libervis@tuxhacker/libervis) |
| 10:36.29 | hrw | pH5: it can detect machine and do anything. |
| 10:36.43 | hrw | pH5: so it detect gta01 and can power on bt |
| 10:36.51 | *** join/#openmoko etf|work (n=etf|work@proxy.salfordsoftware.co.uk) |
| 10:39.43 | *** join/#openmoko _MacNorth (n=daijobu@70-59-58-234.hlrn.qwest.net) |
| 10:42.55 | alphaone | pH5: Okay, it was discoverable once. Then I tried to change the name in hcid.conf and now I can't find the device anymore |
| 10:44.26 | pH5 | hrw: it could, but currently it's not used for powering up bt. it just sets the correct parameters for hciattach (assumes that bt chip is connected via tty). |
| 10:44.55 | hrw | ok |
| 10:45.05 | pH5 | alphaone: I think there is a default timeout of three minutes |
| 10:55.57 | *** join/#openmoko borg_ (n=olaf@80.149.17.21) |
| 10:58.22 | SpeedEvil | aloril: the issue with open source and regulation is that historically everything has been closed source, and there has been no problem with it, though in theory, people can hack binary blobs. With open source, you have a very public, documented interface to all the 'bad' options. The regulator(s) in some cases may view this differently, however much we'd wish that they won't. And this can only be answered by the regulators in question. |
| 10:59.51 | Stephmw | s/no problems/no publicly visible problems/ |
| 11:00.29 | Stephmw | if it didn't get bad press, it didn't happen (hell, if it got bad press, it also didn't happen) |
| 11:00.49 | Stephmw | the only things that happen are in PR releases |
| 11:01.55 | SpeedEvil | Yeah - and the maker can - in teh case of hacked binaries claim it was the evil hackers with no help from them with much more credibility. |
| 11:03.22 | aloril | SpeedEvil: are there actual examples or is it just speculation? |
| 11:04.32 | SpeedEvil | This is just speculation. I should have said 'possible issue with open source', not 'issue'. |
| 11:07.23 | aloril | SpeedEvil: there are things on sale like w[[Universal_Software_Radio_Peripheral]] that are designed to allow almost anything |
| 11:08.34 | *** join/#openmoko denis^da (n=denis@p5B07ED98.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 11:10.13 | *** join/#openmoko TRIsoft (n=mac@p57A2CE96.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 11:10.22 | hrw | hi Mac |
| 11:10.27 | TRIsoft | morning :-) |
| 11:12.31 | SpeedEvil | Certainly - however, will the regulator view differently Sure - however, it's very obviously test equipment, not a GSM radio that's going to be sold in the hundreds of thousands, that someone just wrote a 'jam other phones' app for. |
| 11:12.52 | SpeedEvil | (which the neo radio certainly can't do) |
| 11:19.29 | aloril | you can download binary stuff that does that for either product (in theory) |
| 11:19.55 | *** join/#openmoko holycow (n=hello@mail.wjsgroup.com) |
| 11:20.04 | holycow | hey guys |
| 11:20.12 | holycow | what toolkit does openmoko use? |
| 11:20.12 | SpeedEvil | True - but with the FLOSS, the barrier to entry is much lower, and it's harder to argue that you did as much as any other maker. |
| 11:20.25 | holycow | qtopia maybe? |
| 11:20.35 | SpeedEvil | faq? |
| 11:20.35 | aloril | See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ |
| 11:20.44 | SpeedEvil | Don't actually know - been concnetrating on the hardware. |
| 11:21.14 | holycow | allrighty |
| 11:21.15 | holycow | danke |
| 11:21.53 | aloril | USRP is FLOSS too ;-) |
| 11:22.30 | SpeedEvil | And it's a bit of test equipment. |
| 11:22.34 | aloril | holycow: gtk2+ (see OpenMoko link from FAQ for specifics) |
| 11:22.41 | holycow | aha! |
| 11:22.44 | holycow | interesting |
| 11:22.47 | buz | heck you can buy premade gsm jammers |
| 11:22.49 | holycow | aloril, thank you |
| 11:22.59 | *** join/#openmoko bluelightning (n=blueligh@222-155-210-81.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) |
| 11:23.45 | holycow | sweet, openmoko is certainly looking more interesting than qtopia + greenhone |
| 11:23.55 | SpeedEvil | Which is rather different from a phone - where you have to get the GSM radio approved before sale. |
| 11:24.14 | aloril | SpeedEvil: so, sell 2 version: 1) source code + hardware as test equipment 2) binary only + hardware as end user item ;-) |
| 11:26.23 | aloril | 2) item could checksum binaries and compare to FCC accepted list |
| 11:26.24 | buz | since you dont have the source to the gsm stack, wheres the issue |
| 11:26.34 | SpeedEvil | For the neo, there isn't one. |
| 11:26.53 | aloril | buz: ah, I was pondering case where there would be and was thinking is there really issue or are we just imaging it? |
| 11:26.57 | buz | and unless one wants to lug around giant batteries, software radio is not really feasible |
| 11:27.26 | SpeedEvil | You can't answer the 'is there really an issue'. It's only the FCC that can answer this. |
| 11:27.32 | aloril | buz: just pointing for example where system capable of all of problems is already sold |
| 11:27.51 | buz | yes |
| 11:27.52 | SpeedEvil | It's _utterly_ different though. |
| 11:28.00 | aloril | SpeedEvil: OK, so answer is basically "unknown" currently, that is what I was thinking |
| 11:28.04 | SpeedEvil | For a phone, you _have_ to get teh GSM bit pre-approved. |
| 11:28.19 | SpeedEvil | If they don't like it, you can't sell the phone. |
| 11:28.28 | aloril | SpeedEvil: yup, and thus checksum binaries and refuse to work if it doesn't match FCC approved ones |
| 11:29.19 | aloril | not proposing actual DRM, just simple checksum comparison: now.. if user bypasses that, then its users fault for doing illegal stuff |
| 11:30.10 | SpeedEvil | Yeah - that might be enough. Unfortunately, it's going to depend probably on which regulator, and which person you get at that regulator, as to their understanding. |
| 11:30.14 | aloril | aka.. DMCA: scheme can be simple, only thing that matters is that you break it ;-) |
| 11:30.54 | aloril | (not saying either that hardware manufacturer should use DMCA to lean on users doing stuff not approved, saying that FCC can do that ;-) |
| 11:32.06 | SpeedEvil | The scary case (for phone vendors) would be that they get phones into the field, someone starts doing bad network hacks, and the networks ban all the phones. |
| 11:32.07 | aloril | umm.. not really DMCA, but "your configuration is not approved" -thing or something |
| 11:32.41 | SpeedEvil | Leading to massive warranty claims. |
| 11:32.55 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@24.crcr10.xdsl.nauticom.net) |
| 11:34.18 | aloril | hmm.. this question is still open for mobile networks in USA: can mobile operators ban conforming phones? |
| 11:35.17 | aloril | there is one method: they can just ban that SIM (and sue its owner) |
| 11:35.25 | holycow | SpeedEvil, one network already has ... verizon i thin |
| 11:35.30 | SpeedEvil | Ban by IMEI |
| 11:36.32 | SpeedEvil | And if there was a widespread 'jam all phones in area' or 'free f0ne call5' app, they would probably be able to make it fly. |
| 11:36.42 | aloril | holycow: which might be illegal, but we will see (in past FCC has been against this on normal phones, but current FCC boss likes stuff like this I think) |
| 11:36.46 | SpeedEvil | Especially as the regulator would likely be able to pull the approval for the radio. |
| 11:37.07 | holycow | aloril, indeed, the thing is that cel phone carriers don't want to be reduced to common carrier status i think |
| 11:37.09 | holycow | thats their big thing |
| 11:37.23 | holycow | they think they can upsell on various services and triple dip |
| 11:37.26 | aloril | SpeedEvil: for free calls, you only need to hack SIM? |
| 11:37.35 | hrw | if someone want to see lsusb info then I added "lsusb -v" with enabled bluetooth to the wiki |
| 11:37.58 | aloril | maybe I'm understanding something wrong, but its not actually phone but SIM that is important (and I'm proposing opening up that) |
| 11:38.02 | holycow | ah so a few people here have the openmoko device then? |
| 11:38.06 | holycow | how do you guys find it? |
| 11:38.08 | aloril | s/proposing/not proposing/ |
| 11:38.08 | SpeedEvil | I'm not saying only sim - just if some way were found exploiting a vulnerability in the network. |
| 11:38.11 | holycow | i'd love to see some pics :) |
| 11:38.13 | noidd | yup |
| 11:38.23 | noidd | I find it by looking in my shirt pocket :-) |
| 11:38.23 | SpeedEvil | You can also ban by phone. |
| 11:38.25 | noidd | counter? |
| 11:38.25 | aloril | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; P0: devices shipped at 2007-03-05; 2 weeks, 6 days 00:21:34 (20.015 +-7.0 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-31); 6 months, 4 days (188.015 +-15.0 days) for mass market (2007-09-15): see topic for more info (524) |
| 11:38.37 | holycow | noidd, haha! |
| 11:38.44 | SpeedEvil | Most stolen phones are useless shortly after theft for resale in the UK, for exmaple. |
| 11:38.48 | noidd | holycow: there are links to photos on that link |
| 11:38.58 | noidd | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review |
| 11:38.58 | holycow | thank you, thats superb, lemme check it out |
| 11:39.05 | holycow | i'm thinkin of getting one 'just because' |
| 11:39.13 | SpeedEvil | (They still get sold on to third world countries though) |
| 11:39.58 | Hopscotch | ;5~ |
| 11:40.17 | SpeedEvil | I want one as I hate all my Mp3 players. |
| 11:40.24 | SpeedEvil | And I want one with a decent interface. |
| 11:40.29 | holycow | *oooo* |
| 11:40.31 | holycow | *aahhhh* |
| 11:40.35 | holycow | damn, nice |
| 11:40.44 | noidd | the display is breathtaking |
| 11:40.49 | noidd | as is the case btw |
| 11:40.50 | holycow | lol i tactually looks like the 3d rendered previz stuff |
| 11:40.58 | holycow | noidd, it really is stylish |
| 11:41.00 | noidd | and yes I have dropped it already and yes it did survive :-) |
| 11:41.06 | holycow | i can imagine we can build the iphone ui on top of this |
| 11:41.10 | SpeedEvil | The lack of actual being able to call people is also breathtaking :) |
| 11:41.14 | holycow | and kick steve around a bit :) |
| 11:41.25 | SpeedEvil | It can't do multi-touch |
| 11:41.27 | noidd | holycow: not quite the graphical processing power quite yet |
| 11:41.33 | holycow | SpeedEvil, lol, i've never been able to find anyone i could call regarding my motorola either |
| 11:41.34 | holycow | >_> |
| 11:41.37 | SpeedEvil | And it has _nowhere_ near teh CPU power. |
| 11:41.41 | noidd | You know you've got a hackers phone when the FAQ tells you how to overclock it |
| 11:41.43 | holycow | noidd, oh yes probably *nod* right |
| 11:42.19 | noidd | later this year there is a hardware refresh |
| 11:42.37 | holycow | okay this is very exciting |
| 11:42.44 | noidd | there are rumours that it will involve more processing power and either wifi or camra |
| 11:42.51 | holycow | i totally hat emy phone, i would get this if only it can be connected to my carrier |
| 11:42.59 | holycow | which i bet is no problem right? |
| 11:43.10 | noidd | who is your carrier? |
| 11:43.17 | holycow | fido/rogres in canada |
| 11:43.17 | SpeedEvil | No, no problem if it's a GSM carrier. |
| 11:43.24 | noidd | are they GSM? |
| 11:43.27 | SpeedEvil | If it's CDMA, then no. |
| 11:43.34 | aloril | if there is actual hole, then you can use it using "test systems" too, so they will need to close it anyway |
| 11:43.36 | holycow | not sure actually, i need to look it up ... i think yes |
| 11:43.42 | holycow | cdma is on its way out anyway right? |
| 11:43.43 | bluelightning | of the top of their head, anyone know how to check/enable fast charge mode from user space? |
| 11:43.43 | noidd | do you have a SIM card? |
| 11:43.52 | holycow | yep |
| 11:44.03 | noidd | checking the list |
| 11:44.06 | SpeedEvil | aloril: maybe not. If there are a few dozen test systems, it may not be an issue. |
| 11:44.36 | holycow | ha |
| 11:44.41 | holycow | noidd, oh i didn't know there was a list |
| 11:44.41 | SpeedEvil | If there are 20 thousand devices that can just click on 'get free calls' and they do, then it's a bigger issue for them. |
| 11:45.04 | SpeedEvil | holycow: it's a 200Mhz unaccellerated totally dumb framebuffer device with no floating point. |
| 11:45.19 | holycow | ah, thats okay, first generation |
| 11:45.22 | SpeedEvil | You don't get _that_ much computational eye-candy. |
| 11:45.28 | holycow | have you seen the demos of th elatest nvidia mobile chips? |
| 11:45.37 | aloril | SpeedEvil: its just matter of time before hardware is enough powerful and small so that you can do this with "test systems" too, so problem will just keep increasing |
| 11:45.41 | holycow | it wont be long before either that or something from intel makes it into these |
| 11:45.49 | aloril | (and probably black market will emerge if they don't actually fix it) |
| 11:46.00 | noidd | holycow: Microtell/Fido and Rodgers are noth GSM networks |
| 11:46.06 | noidd | according to: http://www.gsmworld.com/roaming/gsminfo/cou_ca.shtml |
| 11:46.12 | holycow | aloril, oh totally he sony has that 1.3 ghz palm laptop dealie |
| 11:46.22 | holycow | one can squeeze most of that into something not much bigger than a moto |
| 11:46.24 | holycow | noidd, aha! |
| 11:46.29 | SpeedEvil | aloril: Sure - however, it's a long way off, and it's irrelevant to the issue of a widely distributed hackable phone getting banned. |
| 11:46.37 | holycow | noidd, sweet i'm bookmarking that link, thanks! |
| 11:47.20 | holycow | http://www.flickr.com/photos/koenkooi/412663954/in/set-72157594573486523/ <-- NEATO |
| 11:47.21 | SpeedEvil | The nvidia chip _probably_ won't appear in the hardware refresh. It seems likely that it'll be a bit faster processor - but it seems likely that it will still have no accelleration. |
| 11:47.43 | holycow | SpeedEvil, oh yeah that was just a demo at cebit or something |
| 11:47.44 | aloril | SpeedEvil: I guess you can look at history of phreaking for answer ;-) |
| 11:47.49 | SpeedEvil | As from what I understand of the lineup of chips from the CPU maker, they don't do ones with accellerations. |
| 11:47.54 | noidd | The software is growing |
| 11:47.55 | holycow | we won't see those chips for a year or more in live devices |
| 11:48.07 | SpeedEvil | Sure - like the carriers in general don't really care until the fraud hits over a certain level. |
| 11:48.17 | SpeedEvil | Because addressing it is more expensive. |
| 11:48.26 | holycow | SpeedEvil, intel does ... i don't know if they are low power for devices like this ... they are low power for laptops tho |
| 11:48.36 | holycow | intels are all open source too |
| 11:48.36 | *** join/#openmoko cathal (n=cathal@89.101.192.70) |
| 11:48.44 | SpeedEvil | Low power for laptops isn't low power for phones :) |
| 11:48.50 | holycow | ah, thats what i thought |
| 11:49.03 | holycow | yeah i don't think intel is too interested in that area, maybe they should |
| 11:49.04 | holycow | nvidia is |
| 11:49.09 | noidd | don't the ix cpus have some kind of graphical accel functions? |
| 11:49.23 | holycow | i think ati has something cooking on the amd side |
| 11:49.50 | SpeedEvil | Even really basic accel - blitters and scalers - would be handy. |
| 11:49.53 | holycow | lol okay this device is totally l33t |
| 11:49.56 | holycow | i hate to say it but it is |
| 11:50.01 | holycow | i'm buying one just for looks :) |
| 11:50.11 | SpeedEvil | But. |
| 11:50.23 | CM | holycow: Did you read the ars technica article about mobile gpus? |
| 11:50.26 | SpeedEvil | For stuff that requires high motion, you have the 240*320 modew. |
| 11:50.32 | holycow | CM, nope, linkage? |
| 11:50.42 | SpeedEvil | which a 200Mhz CPU can drive quite fast. |
| 11:50.56 | aloril | SpeedEvil: banning popular device might actually lead to class action suit against mobile provider: I think they would take this risk into account |
| 11:51.03 | CM | holycow: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070308-amd-brings-xbox-360-tech-to-handhelds.html |
| 11:51.04 | *** join/#openmoko l4rs (n=laprican@hsiproxy.astra-net.com) |
| 11:51.07 | aloril | ie.. suddenly banning phone that is in wide use |
| 11:51.14 | holycow | SpeedEvil, indeed they can *nod* i still have a pda with a 200mhz cpu |
| 11:51.19 | holycow | CM, danke, reading |
| 11:51.30 | SpeedEvil | If the regulator removes the approval for the radio - and they would, they have a cast-iron excuse. |
| 11:51.55 | noidd | the radio is a standard gsm module |
| 11:52.04 | SpeedEvil | yes - not for the neo, sorry |
| 11:52.11 | noidd | which is in numerous other cellphones |
| 11:52.19 | hrw | ok. I finally managed to brick neo |
| 11:52.30 | noidd | hrw: gratz :-/ |
| 11:52.34 | SpeedEvil | We're talking of a hypothetical case of a future phone with an opensource radio. |
| 11:52.34 | hrw | who has recent working u-boot available online? |
| 11:52.37 | holycow | CM, oh sweet, so what i heard was pretty close to the truth |
| 11:52.38 | noidd | tell me you have the jtag board |
| 11:52.38 | holycow | neato |
| 11:52.43 | SpeedEvil | How brick? |
| 11:52.53 | hrw | SpeedEvil: updated uboot |
| 11:52.56 | SpeedEvil | Ah. |
| 11:53.07 | SpeedEvil | Yeah - the 64M bug is pretty important to fix. |
| 11:53.17 | noidd | I was advised to do the update but I'm chicken :-) |
| 11:53.39 | CoreDump|afk | hrw: I can upload a known-working one, hold on |
| 11:53.39 | noidd | which 64M bug? |
| 11:54.01 | bluelightning | hrw: http://buildhost.openmoko.org/tmp/deploy/images/u-boot-gta01bv3-r3_0_0_1321.bin <- worked for me |
| 11:54.49 | CM | holycow: Lets just hope there's some kind of open specifications to make use of that openGL stuff under linux too :) |
| 11:55.02 | hrw | bluelightning: thx. will flash it when find time to unpack debugboard |
| 11:55.23 | holycow | CM, thats sorta what i'm hoping to see out of amd getting their hands on ati .. amd has seemed like a pretty forward thinking company |
| 11:56.01 | TRIsoft | hrw: Congrats ! Was about time ;-) |
| 11:56.37 | bluelightning | I thought I had bricked mine due to bad u-boot flash... fortunately dfu still worked so I was able to reflash it using that |
| 11:56.39 | CoreDump|afk | http://hentges.net/tmp/snapshots/OpenMoko/u-boot/ <- md5sum |
| 11:56.49 | aloril | SpeedEvil: is there any example of FCC decertifying widely used device? |
| 11:57.03 | holycow | i've not heard of any such thing aloril |
| 11:57.13 | SpeedEvil | AIUI, no. |
| 11:57.48 | SpeedEvil | In the current climate, would there really be any great outcry if it was spun as 'anti hacker' though :( |
| 11:58.17 | aloril | SpeedEvil: there is one way to make it not widespread: require extra hardware for updating GSM firmware |
| 11:58.25 | SpeedEvil | Yeah. |
| 11:59.19 | noidd | If you havn't bricked your device you're not developing enough :-) |
| 11:59.33 | noidd | what is the 64M uboot bug you were reffering to? |
| 12:00.05 | aloril | noidd: http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=245 |
| 12:00.06 | bluelightning | noidd: it's ok to brick your device, if you have a debug board... otherwise you could be in trouble :) |
| 12:00.56 | SpeedEvil | There was a mistake on the 64M address line - it was set wrong, and would corrupt memory |
| 12:01.05 | CoreDump|afk | my god, bugzilla w/o xml plugin should be forbidden by law |
| 12:01.55 | SpeedEvil | aloril: also, note that this is exactly what the various HD-DVD/... standards do to players that have bugs. |
| 12:02.06 | SpeedEvil | that release their keys into the wild. |
| 12:02.29 | noidd | otherwise you wait another 4 weeks ;-P |
| 12:02.35 | noidd | <-- no debug board |
| 12:03.13 | aloril | SpeedEvil: have they revoked key to any popular hardware? (or even less popular, I have vague memory that this might have happened) |
| 12:03.47 | SpeedEvil | No, but it's published policy. |
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| 12:06.03 | *** join/#openmoko cdbot2 (n=cdbot2@hentges.net) |
| 12:06.27 | aloril | SpeedEvil: indeed, we will see if they will revoke key for recently broken software player |
| 12:07.21 | bluelightning | noidd: I don't have one either |
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| 12:15.37 | buz | i'm waiting for the terrorist phone propaganda |
| 12:17.10 | holycow | heh |
| 12:17.12 | holycow | just wait |
| 12:17.57 | holycow | i have no doubt our friends in redmon or at sco have their fud pencils sharpened |
| 12:19.38 | xkr47 | maybe they are on this channel here :) |
| 12:21.52 | Elrond | aloril - So one HD-DVD key was leaked from a software player lately? (I missed that) |
| 12:22.33 | aloril | Elrond: yes (AIUI) |
| 12:22.36 | vmaster | powerdvd and windvd, iirc |
| 12:23.10 | aloril | also I wonder if any CSS key was ever revoked? (now pointless of course) |
| 12:23.36 | hrw | someone has devirginator recipe? |
| 12:23.54 | rboehme | wiki page on buying is where? |
| 12:23.57 | vmaster | Elrond: http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/86373 |
| 12:27.12 | Elrond | vmaster - Thanks *reading* |
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| 12:29.22 | hrw | someone remember which exactly wiki page describe unbricking? |
| 12:31.10 | Elrond | hrw - Either use divirginator... or... *searching* |
| 12:31.15 | TRIsoft | hrw: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Sjf2410-linux |
| 12:31.31 | vmaster | sjf2410-linux doesn't work with v2 of the debug board |
| 12:31.40 | Elrond | hrw - http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Phase_0#Restoring_original_Software_Image |
| 12:31.47 | TRIsoft | vmaster: Ouch. OK. |
| 12:32.12 | Elrond | TRIsoft - Sjf2410-linux is AFAIK not any more recommded. |
| 12:32.38 | Elrond | vmaster - Should the link to Sjf2410-linux be removed from Main_Page? |
| 12:33.02 | hrw | Elrond: thx |
| 12:33.41 | Elrond | hrw - Read the part about -0 carefully! |
| 12:34.02 | hrw | I know |
| 12:34.09 | sannes | counter |
| 12:34.09 | aloril | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review P1: 2 weeks, 5 days 23:25:50 (19.976 +-7.0 days) (see faq) (525) |
| 12:35.04 | vmaster | Elrond: well, the sjf2410 accesses jtag via the parallel port (wiggler), while the v2 debug board comes with a FT2232 USB chip for debugging, so sjf2410 should be a thing of the past, but i don't know if openmoko has other plans |
| 12:36.48 | Elrond | vmaster - Let me rephrase: Is sjf2410 useful to any current P0 owner? |
| 12:37.02 | Elrond | s/Is/Is current/ |
| 12:37.21 | hrw | Elrond: no |
| 12:37.22 | vmaster | Elrond: if any of them has a debug v1 board yes |
| 12:37.50 | Elrond | vmaster - I heard, that sjf2410 does not handle BBT correctly? |
| 12:38.03 | vmaster | neither does the current deviriginator, as i understand it |
| 12:38.11 | Elrond | I think it does. |
| 12:38.30 | vmaster | ah, ok, it's only the -0 option that kills bbt then? |
| 12:38.36 | Elrond | As I heard, it uploads u-boot to RAM and then uses u-boot on the device to handle BBT?! |
| 12:38.50 | Elrond | vmaster - Yes, that's, what I gathered. |
| 12:39.17 | vmaster | ah, ok, then sjf2410 should be removed, as it's only of use for very few people, and might do harm |
| 12:40.33 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (i=foobar@dslb-084-057-185-197.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 12:40.52 | Elrond | vmaster - Stage 0: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Devirginator#Stage_0 |
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| 12:41.12 | vmaster | Elrond: ah, ok, thx |
| 12:42.16 | Elrond | vmaster - Scroll down for phase 1, which suggests to me, that all this is BBT compliant. |
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| 12:45.47 | vmaster | Elrond: yeah, i missed that devirginator uses u-boot to do the flashing |
| 12:52.12 | Elrond | vmaster - http://svnweb.openmoko.org/trunk/src/host/devirginator/openocd.in?rev=1227&view=markup AIUI it loads u-boot into RAM and starts it there. |
| 12:52.13 | *** join/#openmoko dom_ (n=dom@152.78.191.7) |
| 12:52.24 | rboehme | Does anyone know where the info on how to buy at the end of the month is? I can't find it on the wiki. |
| 12:52.57 | Elrond | rboehme - AFAIK there is no info yet. The remour is, that www.openmoko.com will have "the shop" ;) |
| 12:53.45 | rboehme | elrond - thanks. Guess I'm just impatient to know as much as I can about preordering |
| 12:54.17 | Elrond | rboehme - If you want to be notified, get yourself on the announce ML: But all this is AFAIK in the FAQ. |
| 12:55.48 | hrw | ~lart usb |
| 12:56.07 | aloril | rboehme: subscribe to announce mailing list |
| 12:57.01 | rboehme | elrond - thanks. Already on the announce ml. |
| 12:57.22 | Elrond | <-- getting to the next presentation/talk. |
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| 13:05.57 | *** join/#openmoko Ryushin (i=proxy@windwalker.openinnovations.com) |
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| 13:12.50 | hrw | heh.. getting it all working is nightmare |
| 13:13.22 | CM | hrw: Still a brick? |
| 13:13.47 | hrw | CM: openocd has problems |
| 13:13.56 | CM | ok |
| 13:14.23 | *** join/#openmoko buz (n=buz@80-218-148-33.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 13:18.49 | vmaster | hrw: what problems do you have with openocd? |
| 13:19.40 | hrw | vmaster: takes quite lot of time to get connected to neo and no information (-d2) what is going on |
| 13:19.55 | *** join/#openmoko Stephmw_ (n=steph@212.69.51.139) |
| 13:21.04 | hrw | btw, can I use neo with debug cable connected or have to disconnect it? |
| 13:22.19 | vmaster | you should be able to use it that way - it also gives you a serial console |
| 13:23.35 | hrw | I used "devirginate -1" to flash uboot and it does not turn on |
| 13:25.30 | *** join/#openmoko slomo (n=slomo@ubuntu/member/slomo) |
| 13:25.42 | *** join/#openmoko Liane (i=Liane@125-230-181-78.dynamic.hinet.net) |
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| 13:37.24 | mjr | oops, ehdokkaita |
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| 13:40.12 | hrw | ok. devigrinator with newer uboot, newer kernel, my image |
| 13:41.22 | hrw | shit. have to dig under desk and disconnect bt |
| 13:41.46 | hrw | my BT dongle is DFU too |
| 13:43.31 | SpeedEvil | DFU? |
| 13:43.58 | SpeedEvil | Oh - wacky. I thought they all had downloaded firmware every time. |
| 13:47.26 | noidd | I really need to get nfsroot working |
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| 13:59.14 | SpeedEvil | How should Sean be cited? |
| 13:59.25 | SpeedEvil | 'One of the creators' 'One of the instigators', ...? |
| 14:04.19 | aloril | the instigator ? |
| 14:04.43 | TRIsoft | one of the creatures ? |
| 14:04.49 | *** join/#openmoko esden (n=esden@p57AEC2E0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 14:06.02 | xkr47 | "one of us" :) |
| 14:06.02 | jsgotangco | lol |
| 14:06.19 | hrw | Starting download: [###################dfu_download error -62 |
| 14:06.19 | hrw | Error during download |
| 14:06.28 | hrw | wtf... |
| 14:07.15 | SpeedEvil | I hate overly verbose errors. |
| 14:07.23 | SpeedEvil | I mean, is - really needed there? |
| 14:07.30 | vmaster | hehehehe |
| 14:09.11 | aloril | hehe, /.: GPRS == brick (Score:2) |
| 14:10.42 | aloril | it should be: "no source code == brick" |
| 14:12.20 | *** join/#openmoko libervisco (n=libervis@tuxhacker/libervis) |
| 14:12.33 | libervisco | 404: http://www.openmoko.com/files/OpenMoko_Neoforms.pdf |
| 14:12.35 | libervisco | anyone has a copy? |
| 14:13.45 | TRIsoft | I guess, this one is meant : http://www.openmoko.com/files/OpenMoko_Neologics.pdf |
| 14:14.27 | libervisco | thanks, I'll look.. |
| 14:14.31 | SpeedEvil | works for me. |
| 14:15.09 | libervisco | just blogging about phase0 so I wanted to show that roadmap graph |
| 14:15.37 | ecraven | counter |
| 14:15.37 | aloril | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review P1: 2 weeks, 5 days 21:44:22 (19.906 +-7.0 days) (see faq) (526) |
| 14:15.37 | libervisco | (preparing mobiLiberty for launch ;) |
| 14:18.46 | *** join/#openmoko bkuhn (n=bkuhn@thurgood-marshall.sflc.info) |
| 14:19.33 | noidd | hrw: flow control? |
| 14:24.45 | libervisco | I've got a few questions |
| 14:24.50 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03thomas * r1324 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/ (2 files): |
| 14:24.50 | CIA-7 | openmoko: * src/openmoko-dialer-window-dialer.c: Remove some old code |
| 14:24.50 | CIA-7 | openmoko: * src/openmoko-dialer-window-history.c: Fix a signal connection |
| 14:25.01 | libervisco | In Phase 0 only some developers get free phones, right? |
| 14:25.19 | libervisco | and Phase 1 other interested developers are able to buy |
| 14:25.21 | *** join/#openmoko koen|galinhas (n=koen@189.16.225.54) |
| 14:25.30 | holycow | *hmmm* |
| 14:27.08 | vmaster | libervisco: yeah - the P0 phones have already been sent to 30+ developers - afaik 50 were admitted at first, but some of them decided not to get their P0 phone |
| 14:27.20 | vmaster | libervisco: at P1 everyone is going to be able to buy the phone for $350 |
| 14:27.30 | libervisco | ok |
| 14:27.41 | libervisco | but it will still be mainly targetted to devs |
| 14:27.45 | libervisco | in P1 I mean.. |
| 14:28.09 | vmaster | yeah - it's definitely not going to be ready for users at the beginning of P1 |
| 14:28.10 | libervisco | mass market is P2 |
| 14:28.14 | vmaster | right |
| 14:28.24 | libervisco | ok thanks :) |
| 14:28.43 | vmaster | there's been rumour about a P1.5 with a refreshed phone, but I don't know how certain that is |
| 14:30.01 | Stephmw | the hw refresh is documented on the wiki afaik |
| 14:31.15 | guaqua | counter |
| 14:31.16 | aloril | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review P1: 2 weeks, 5 days 21:28:44 (19.895 +-7.0 days) (see faq) (527) |
| 14:32.12 | *** join/#openmoko gabaug (n=gabe@207-229-164-50.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.cable.rcn.com) |
| 14:32.18 | *** join/#openmoko gabaug (n=gabe@207-229-164-50.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.cable.rcn.com) |
| 14:33.16 | noidd | I didn't realise until watching this project how hard hardware refresh is |
| 14:33.20 | hrw | ARGHFW%@^@$^@ |
| 14:33.28 | noidd | and FIC are masters of it given their large OEM status |
| 14:33.31 | hrw | devirginator SUXX |
| 14:33.39 | vmaster | hrw: hehehe |
| 14:33.46 | hrw | Starting download: [#########################################dfu_download error -62 |
| 14:33.49 | hrw | Error during download |
| 14:33.55 | noidd | Did it fix it enough to at least get uboot reflashed? |
| 14:34.22 | hrw | noidd: flashed: yes. started: no |
| 14:34.29 | noidd | looking at the sources for dfu-util can you determin what that really means? |
| 14:34.35 | noidd | eew |
| 14:34.44 | hrw | noidd: nevermind how I try to poweron phone it refuse to do it |
| 14:35.18 | vmaster | hrw: is the battery charged? |
| 14:37.19 | hrw | vmaster: atleast partially and device is connected to usb bus |
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| 14:40.32 | hrw | uf. disconnected debugboard so atleast uboot start. but no menu == no usb console |
| 14:41.26 | noidd | I had problems getting to the debug menu a few times |
| 14:41.52 | noidd | didn't realize that you have to leave it off usb and battery for some arbitrary amount of time or it completyely ignores your request via aux |
| 14:42.02 | *** join/#openmoko parag0n_ (n=parag0n@popeshoe.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 14:51.18 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03thomas * r1325 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/libmokoui/ (moko-finger-window.c moko-window.c): |
| 14:51.18 | CIA-7 | openmoko: * libmokoui/moko-window.c: Don't try to access windows that don't exist yet |
| 14:51.18 | CIA-7 | openmoko: * libmokoui/moko-finger-window.c: Create the window correctly |
| 14:55.25 | PBeck | hi |
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| 14:57.30 | Elrond | hrw - Did you finally unbrick your device? |
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| 14:59.36 | prpplague | hrw: what application are you guys using to do jtag based flashing? |
| 15:00.03 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=rob_w@p549B997B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 15:00.35 | hrw | prpplague: openocd |
| 15:00.40 | hrw | Elrond: I have uboot |
| 15:00.42 | prpplague | ahh cool deal |
| 15:00.53 | hrw | Elrond: now I need to get access to it ;D |
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| 15:04.52 | Elrond | prpplague - openocd loads u-boot into RAM. u-boot on device writes itself to flash. |
| 15:05.16 | Elrond | hrw - Doesn't it prompt on the serial console? |
| 15:06.04 | hrw | Elrond: first I have to findout how to get debugboard saying that there is serial there |
| 15:06.26 | Elrond | aloril - I guess, P1 will start, when u-boot is rockstable. Without debug board, one does not want to update u-boot. |
| 15:06.57 | Elrond | hrw - Huh. The debug board should just be some cdc_acm device, like the neo itself. |
| 15:07.01 | hrw | hi Cliff |
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| 15:07.13 | hrw | Elrond: but it does not |
| 15:07.35 | prpplague | Elrond: ahh, we normally write directly to flash |
| 15:07.40 | Elrond | hrw - *arg* So you got a brick'd debug board?! |
| 15:08.03 | Elrond | prpplague - OM stopped doing so, when the BBT came to life. |
| 15:08.11 | Elrond | s/came to life/was born/ |
| 15:08.36 | hrw | Elrond: it shows as usb hub with debug board after hub. it just does not give serial |
| 15:08.42 | prpplague | Elrond: BBT? |
| 15:08.49 | Elrond | prpplague - bad block table. |
| 15:09.03 | *** join/#openmoko balrog-kun (i=balrog@174-mo5-1.acn.waw.pl) |
| 15:09.20 | Elrond | hrw - *grrr* After the hub should also be a serial thingy... *grrr* |
| 15:09.29 | prpplague | Elrond: ahh |
| 15:09.38 | hrw | `-Dev# 1 Vendor 0x0000 Product 0x0000 |
| 15:09.38 | hrw | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:09.39 | hrw | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:09.51 | hrw | hosthub -> dbhub -> db |
| 15:10.06 | prpplague | Elrond: yea currently we are using a 2mb nor flash for all of the boot stuff, but next gen stuff will be all nand flash |
| 15:10.15 | *** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru) |
| 15:10.17 | hrw | anyway I think that I need to connect neo to external power as dbhub gives too small |
| 15:10.24 | Elrond | prpplague - http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/NAND_bad_blocks#Solution |
| 15:11.36 | Elrond | prpplague - What's the major difference between nor and nand flash? |
| 15:14.33 | prpplague | Elrond: silicon aspects aside, the primary difference is that nand flash requires the usage of software checks for things like crc, bit flipping, and valid writes |
| 15:15.20 | prpplague | Elrond: NOR is much more like an old style eeprom that is accessed on the standard address/data bus |
| 15:15.22 | SpeedEvil | NOR flash is supposed to be perfect |
| 15:15.29 | SpeedEvil | 100%, no errors. |
| 15:15.55 | Elrond | Ahh. So why is everyone switching to nand, when nor is "perfect"? |
| 15:16.10 | SpeedEvil | NAND flash is supplied with some extra blocks, and the guarantee is that after 100000 writes (or whatever) to each block, you will only have used up the spare blocks. |
| 15:16.12 | SpeedEvil | cheaper |
| 15:16.14 | SpeedEvil | smaller |
| 15:16.26 | prpplague | and requires less communication lines |
| 15:16.30 | SpeedEvil | Yeah. |
| 15:16.59 | prpplague | Elrond: lovely introduction - http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT4422361427.html |
| 15:17.28 | SpeedEvil | So a 64M NAND flash starts out with maybe 66M raw capacity, 300K of factory bad blocks (first is guaranteed OK) and develops bad bloicks over the life of hte device |
| 15:17.50 | SpeedEvil | There are algorithms to avoid data loss published. |
| 15:18.29 | Elrond | Ahh. |
| 15:18.48 | Elrond | I assume those algorithms are either in the mtd drivers or on the nand controllers. |
| 15:19.27 | Elrond | prpplague - Thanks for the URL, just reading... looks good. |
| 15:19.36 | prpplague | Elrond: problem is that SoC manufacturers have to "trick" the SoC into booting from NAND flash since the current models for booting an ARM system generally look at a device on the standard A/D bus |
| 15:20.01 | hrw | Nokia DT-14 costs 20 eur (external charger for bl-5c batteries which neo1973 use) |
| 15:20.04 | hrw | cu |
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| 15:26.22 | buz | can be had much cheaper on ebay |
| 15:26.30 | buz | i wonder if those set the batteries on fire though |
| 15:27.10 | SpeedEvil | On fire battereies are rare. |
| 15:27.42 | *** join/#openmoko balrog-kun (i=balrog@174-mo5-1.acn.waw.pl) |
| 15:28.08 | SuN | So are hurricanes and homocides :D |
| 15:28.11 | guaqua | has someone run the make setup with the mokomakefile recently? |
| 15:28.37 | *** join/#openmoko MoRpHeUz (n=morphbr@189.16.225.54) |
| 15:28.54 | guaqua | this is what i'm getting. might be a horribly easy thing to fix, but i know nothing of monotone...so... monotone: error: database schema 48fd5d84f1e5a949ca093e87e5ac558da6e5956d is unknown; cannot perform migration |
| 15:30.14 | CM | guaqua: I ran it this morning, worked just fine |
| 15:30.22 | guaqua | hmm |
| 15:30.25 | guaqua | nevermind |
| 15:30.30 | guaqua | i'm being dumb |
| 15:30.35 | CM | make update-makefile;make update; make setup ? |
| 15:30.37 | Elrond | What's wrong with charging in the neo anyway? |
| 15:30.52 | *** join/#openmoko MoRpHeUz_ (n=morphbr@189.16.225.54) |
| 15:31.07 | guaqua | CM: i have too old version of monotone i guess |
| 15:31.16 | SpeedEvil | I'm guessing the basic problem is that when you plug it in and the battery is dead, it tries to boot. |
| 15:31.23 | CM | Use 32 at least |
| 15:31.32 | *** join/#openmoko lkm` (n=c@gated.datecs.bg) |
| 15:31.32 | SpeedEvil | However, booting uses more power than is available. |
| 15:31.39 | SpeedEvil | so it crashes, and loops. |
| 15:32.00 | guaqua | monotone 0.24 here... |
| 15:32.21 | CM | guaqua: Hehe.. What distro are you using?? |
| 15:32.24 | SpeedEvil | My Nokia 3330 does the same at very low battery, with very old (high resistancE) battery. |
| 15:32.28 | loufoque | why does booting require more power than running? |
| 15:32.37 | SpeedEvil | It doesn't. |
| 15:32.58 | guaqua | CM: this is ubuntu edgy :S |
| 15:33.02 | SpeedEvil | It's just that drawing power at 100mA from the USB bus, there is not enough energy to charge the battery and boot at the same time. |
| 15:33.05 | SpeedEvil | AIUI. |
| 15:33.21 | *** join/#openmoko balrog-kun (i=balrog@174-mo5-1.acn.waw.pl) |
| 15:33.30 | *** join/#openmoko atla (n=atla@p3EE3F65C.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 15:34.04 | CM | guaqua: I know 0.32 is availible for ubuntu, but not where. I'm on gentoo |
| 15:35.47 | guaqua | for dapper |
| 15:35.55 | guaqua | i'll compile it myself |
| 15:36.12 | guaqua | don't fancy installing wrong distributions |
| 15:38.55 | pH5 | SpeedEvil: the ti calypso in my htc magician takes over 20 seconds to boot and to get a connection to the gsm network (although I have bad signal quality here). I hope that FIC have a better firmware than HTC had. |
| 15:40.40 | SpeedEvil | Hopefully. |
| 15:40.47 | bhima | pH5: Why do you turn your phone off? |
| 15:40.51 | SpeedEvil | 'off' mode should just normally be suspend-RAM. |
| 15:41.06 | SpeedEvil | So it should turn back on within a couple of seconds. |
| 15:41.15 | bhima | I'm hoping that the phone does suspend like the Nokia 770 and N800. |
| 15:41.16 | SpeedEvil | Then it's up to the GSM modem boot time. |
| 15:41.50 | SpeedEvil | In normal use, the GSM modem will be active, sucking down 1/6th or so of the battery per day, and the CPU in suspend-RAM |
| 15:41.52 | bhima | They don't actually go to sleep. But they get a week or so with the kernel booted and actually running. |
| 15:42.08 | SpeedEvil | You will get at best 2 days with the CPU on. |
| 15:42.09 | *** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru) |
| 15:42.19 | bhima | SpeedEvil: How will you receive bluetooth stuff? |
| 15:42.52 | bhima | Two days is quite tolerable. |
| 15:43.04 | pH5 | bhima: wakeup irq from the bluetooth chipset |
| 15:43.48 | *** join/#openmoko balrog-kun (i=balrog@174-mo5-1.acn.waw.pl) |
| 15:44.17 | bhima | One of my iPaq WinCE devices turned bluetoth off when it went to sleep. |
| 15:44.27 | SpeedEvil | More like 1, with CPU and bluetooth and GSM on. |
| 15:44.27 | SpeedEvil | I don't know how much the BT module can do. |
| 15:44.27 | SpeedEvil | If it can do 'wake' interrupts, like the GSM and touchscreen can. |
| 15:44.27 | bhima | The other one was weird, and had bluetooth in a half-on state. |
| 15:44.52 | bhima | dyntick would be so much nicer if it could do that. |
| 15:45.59 | bhima | I suspect that Nokia has a lot more experienced kernel sleep type people, though. |
| 15:46.28 | bhima | dyntick also is a bit risky, since bad apps can suck the battery down easily. |
| 15:49.35 | bhima | Ok, time to go to work. |
| 15:49.50 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Do I read the estimates right? CPU in slow + gps would be like 35 hours? |
| 15:50.18 | *** join/#openmoko rd__ (n=redragon@segfault.net) |
| 15:51.18 | bhima | The WinCE device I used could also be woken by incoming GPRS traffic. If you left a TCP stream open, and put it to sleep, it would wake up when data came in. |
| 15:51.32 | bhima | But then it wouldn't go back to sleep for awhile. |
| 15:51.50 | bhima | It didn't really "know" why it had been woken at the OS level, it seemed. |
| 15:52.01 | bhima | It wouldn't go to sleep more quickly if there hadn't been any user interaction. |
| 15:52.28 | bhima | So that would drain the battery, since I had it set to 10 minutes. |
| 15:52.36 | *** join/#openmoko RbdPngn (n=ningerso@uslink-66.173.44-135.uslink.net) |
| 15:52.38 | bhima | Plus, the touch screen would be active. |
| 15:52.43 | bhima | and now I really go. |
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| 15:55.02 | SpeedEvil | Elrond: somewhere around that. |
| 15:55.17 | SpeedEvil | The GPS can get a position in a second though. |
| 15:55.43 | SpeedEvil | So it rarely needs to be turned on all hte time. |
| 15:56.28 | libervisco | May I post an OpenMoko related link? :) |
| 15:56.32 | SpeedEvil | The GSM modem can wake the device. |
| 15:57.00 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Well, I'm considering to use the phone to replace my non-existent handheld gps. ;) And for osm having a full track is often very useful. ;) |
| 15:57.02 | lkm` | what are major/minor numbs for touchscreen device node ? |
| 15:57.03 | aloril | lkm`: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
| 15:57.16 | *** join/#openmoko rd_ (n=redragon@vnsecurity.net) |
| 15:57.18 | SpeedEvil | Do you need a full track though. |
| 15:57.28 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Yes, sometimes. |
| 15:57.29 | SpeedEvil | Or would a position every 5 seconds do just as well. |
| 15:57.50 | Elrond | It depends a lot. :) |
| 15:57.55 | SpeedEvil | True. |
| 15:57.56 | pH5 | I guess there is quite a bit of measurement ahead of us to find the best gps/gsm intervals for power those saving modes. |
| 15:58.08 | Elrond | people usually prefer full tracks for averaging, etc. |
| 15:58.20 | guaqua | turning gsm off altogether would be a nice thing |
| 15:58.28 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03mickey * r1326 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/ (8 files in 8 dirs): openmoko-*: remove generated INSTALL files |
| 15:58.34 | SpeedEvil | Depending on the design of the device, it _may_ be possible to boost the GPS lock time to well under a second. |
| 15:58.35 | pH5 | The GPS could be started up every few seconds only, but stay on once there is movement detected. |
| 15:58.38 | Elrond | guaqua - Easily done. :-) |
| 15:58.44 | guaqua | Elrond: yep :) |
| 15:58.52 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03mickey * r1327 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/INSTALL: openmoko-libs: remove generated INSTALL file |
| 15:58.55 | SpeedEvil | If you can feed the GPS hardware 'here is the likely doppler shifts, start there'. |
| 15:59.02 | SpeedEvil | rather than it actually searching. |
| 15:59.14 | SpeedEvil | As if it's only been off for 5s, then you pretty much know htem. |
| 15:59.22 | guaqua | actually the gps interval could be a whole lot longer |
| 15:59.27 | SpeedEvil | Yeah. |
| 15:59.38 | SpeedEvil | But even 1s/5s saves a lot of power. |
| 15:59.55 | SpeedEvil | And further gains are fairly small. |
| 15:59.55 | guaqua | for it to be actually useful it could be even like 15 secs |
| 16:00.25 | guaqua | i'm now thinking of for example use in navigating |
| 16:00.47 | SpeedEvil | if the screen is on, it's almost irrelevant. |
| 16:00.56 | SpeedEvil | As the screen uses much, much more poert. |
| 16:00.57 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03mickey * r1328 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/examples/ (6 files in 6 dirs): examples: remove autogenerated INSTALL |
| 16:01.03 | guaqua | oh :/ |
| 16:01.44 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03mickey * r1329 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/panel-plugins/ (4 files in 4 dirs): panel-plugins: remove autogenerated INSTALL |
| 16:01.46 | SpeedEvil | IIRC 30mW/150mW or so - 300mW with screen and CPU, as you'll almost certainly need |
| 16:01.49 | *** join/#openmoko vlad-7 (n=chatzill@verniyi-mihayilov9-vpn-450.tsnet.ru) |
| 16:01.52 | aloril | libervisco: sure, go ahead and post link (I don't think you need to ask for that ;-) |
| 16:02.24 | Elrond | libervisco - If it's really useful, add it to the wiki, too. |
| 16:02.33 | aloril | ooh, mickey is back committing |
| 16:02.38 | libervisco | well it's pretty much self promotion which is why I ask :) |
| 16:02.59 | dullard | what's the name of the oe build target for openmoko? do I just do a bitbake openmoko-image? |
| 16:03.05 | aloril | libervisco: as long as it only once / link ;-) |
| 16:03.05 | libervisco | http://www.mobiliberty.com/openmoko_phase_0_shipped |
| 16:03.15 | libervisco | http://digg.com/gadgets/OpenMoko_Phase_0_shipped |
| 16:03.23 | libervisco | er yea :D |
| 16:06.12 | *** join/#openmoko dottedma1 (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru) |
| 16:06.41 | aloril | libervisco: hehe (interesting that source has been released about month ago, P0 phones has been received and still no digg/ /.) |
| 16:08.06 | Moo^^^ | you need to add digg buttons to your blogs! |
| 16:09.12 | libervisco | Moo^^^, yeah I will |
| 16:09.20 | libervisco | that site is barely launched, but approaching it :) |
| 16:10.15 | *** join/#openmoko l3jj (n=chatzill@dsl093-001-038.det1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 16:11.08 | loufoque | is phase 1+ and phase 2 the same hardware ? |
| 16:11.36 | Moo^^^ | FYI if this haven't been here yet http://www.linuxlookup.com/review/trolltech_qtopia_greenphone_and_sdk_review |
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| 16:11.45 | *** part/#openmoko RbdPngn (n=ningerso@uslink-66.173.44-135.uslink.net) |
| 16:12.05 | l3jj | I wish it where not GSM only :( |
| 16:13.59 | aloril | loufoque: possibly |
| 16:14.15 | *** join/#openmoko fralef (n=fralef@142.92.36.177) |
| 16:15.17 | loufoque | Moo^^^: it's too KDE-like |
| 16:16.06 | Moo^^^ | loufoque: the problem being... :) |
| 16:16.48 | SpeedEvil | If we can get a working dialer, then preorder for a week or so, then is the right time for /. IMO. |
| 16:18.30 | aloril | SpeedEvil: yeah |
| 16:20.49 | loufoque | Moo^^^: KDE is not fit for a phone |
| 16:21.34 | guaqua | loufoque: reasons being? |
| 16:21.58 | loufoque | guaqua: it was not made for those, it was made for the desktop |
| 16:22.01 | SpeedEvil | So do your own ncurses version. |
| 16:22.07 | *** join/#openmoko timotimo (n=timotimo@216.127.56.5) |
| 16:22.24 | Moo^^^ | loufoque: that's very untrue. I think Qt is more suitable for phone than GTK. I was in Openmind 2006 where Nokia had presentative tellign about N700 and Qt had presentative telling about Greenphone. |
| 16:23.05 | Moo^^^ | Qt is very well written library made for different environments (i.e. embedded). GTK was born Linux desktop in mind. |
| 16:23.22 | Moo^^^ | Nokia had some challenges making GTK to run in N700 |
| 16:23.55 | Moo^^^ | but that's for technical merits. I think GTK is better choice since it's not controlled by one company. |
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| 16:48.09 | aevin | a recursive bug squashing puzzle? |
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| 17:35.06 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03thomas * r1330 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/libmokoui/ (3 files): |
| 17:35.06 | CIA-7 | openmoko: * libmokoui/moko-finger-tool-box.c: Don't segfault if the theme hasn't specified a background image |
| 17:35.06 | CIA-7 | openmoko: * libmokoui/moko-finger-wheel.c: Don't segfault if the theme hasn't specified a background image |
| 17:35.07 | CIA-7 | openmoko: * libmokoui/moko-finger-window.c: Don't try and access windows that don't exist |
| 17:35.16 | *** join/#openmoko dirakx (n=judith@200.58.198.4) |
| 17:37.14 | PBeck | re |
| 17:42.50 | balrog-kun | does the vibrator work? |
| 17:43.56 | *** join/#openmoko mikesh (n=mikesh@x133.net.upc.cz) |
| 17:44.25 | SpeedEvil | If it doesn't, you can always get a bluetooth one. |
| 17:44.43 | *** join/#openmoko cworth_ (n=cworth@c-67-160-161-141.hsd1.or.comcast.net) |
| 17:46.57 | balrog-kun | i'm only curious if it works in the current phones :) |
| 17:47.09 | balrog-kun | it should vibrate for 50ms on boot |
| 17:47.35 | SpeedEvil | It's hard to screw up. it's just a GPIO and a transistor :) |
| 17:48.12 | balrog-kun | you have to fit the whole motor inside the case too :) |
| 17:48.28 | SpeedEvil | There is a motor - even pictures of it! |
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| 17:49.06 | balrog-kun | it probably works then :) |
| 17:49.37 | SpeedEvil | There are pictures of the GPS too... :) |
| 17:50.37 | *** join/#openmoko Eludias (n=eludias@wingding.demon.nl) |
| 17:54.19 | Elrond | balrog-kun - BTW: The 0x80 / 0xfa didn't seem to work out. :-| |
| 17:56.46 | *** join/#openmoko [g2] (n=g2@nslu2-linux/g2) |
| 17:57.10 | gabaug | balrog-kun: it works |
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| 18:13.04 | wvdschel | lol, huge channel :) |
| 18:13.28 | SpeedEvil | The average waistline is unfortunately large, yes. |
| 18:13.29 | holycow | ha! |
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| 18:15.30 | wvdschel | anyone here that has actually got there hands on a neo1973? |
| 18:15.30 | aloril | wvdschel: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
| 18:15.50 | SpeedEvil | around 36 have bewen given out |
| 18:16.02 | SpeedEvil | 8 or so of them are occasionally in this channel. |
| 18:17.20 | wvdschel | I see |
| 18:17.30 | wvdschel | have they started taking orders yet? :) |
| 18:17.42 | SpeedEvil | No. |
| 18:17.53 | wvdschel | :( |
| 18:18.13 | SpeedEvil | Probably before the end of the month. |
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| 18:23.05 | antenagora_study | counter |
| 18:23.05 | aloril | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review P1: 2 weeks, 5 days 17:36:54 (19.734 +-7.0 days) (see faq) (528) |
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| 18:37.27 | balrog-kun | gabaug: good to know, thanks |
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| 18:44.19 | gabaug | yes |
| 18:45.53 | aloril2 | here are some things that need updating in faq (and related pages): I will do them tomorrow, but then it might be late in case of /.:ing |
| 18:46.42 | aloril2 | (these are based on actual questions here during weekend) |
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| 18:47.11 | *** join/#openmoko orpheus (n=scott@lawn-128-61-120-205.lawn.gatech.edu) |
| 18:47.53 | aloril2 | sorry if some of these are in faq already |
| 18:48.47 | aloril2 | 1) GSM providers: link from faq to page that talks about these (page should already exists) |
| 18:49.59 | aloril2 | 2) closed source parts: agpsd user space binary library, GSM modem |
| 18:50.52 | *** join/#openmoko greghunt (n=greg@88-108-22-143.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) |
| 18:52.04 | SpeedEvil | GSM modem is a seperate one. |
| 18:52.06 | SpeedEvil | though |
| 18:52.24 | SpeedEvil | I mean runs on nother CPU. |
| 18:52.39 | SpeedEvil | The bluetooth module has its own CPU if you want to count that. |
| 18:52.42 | aloril2 | 3) link from Neo1973 to P0_review page (or link from FAQ page to P0_Review page) |
| 18:52.52 | SpeedEvil | yeah |
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| 18:55.40 | *** join/#openmoko ebel (n=rory@A-71-37.cust.iol.ie) |
| 18:56.06 | aloril2 | 4) OpenMoko is linked from FAQ, but does OpenMoko link to OpenMokoFramework (or something like that)? Or does FAQ already link to framework page? |
| 18:56.54 | *** join/#openmoko naveenium (n=naveeniu@12.11.224.4) |
| 18:57.07 | orpheus | the hardware is going to be available (in a few weeks) to anyone with $350 and a fair chance of helping with software, right? |
| 18:57.08 | aloril | orpheus: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
| 18:58.08 | *** join/#openmoko greentux (n=lemke@Z7915.z.pppool.de) |
| 18:58.45 | orpheus | some people here at Georgia Tech are interested |
| 18:59.44 | *** join/#openmoko vmaster_ (i=vmaster@p5B07E8DC.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 18:59.56 | aloril2 | 5) Neo1973 should probably mention P1+ hardware refresh (June AIUI or later; faster CPU, GSM?, maybe wifi) |
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| 19:01.04 | hrw | orpheus: hardware (phase1) will be available for anyone who will pay 350 USD for phone. no warranty that it will include working software |
| 19:01.30 | vmaster | hrw: have you been able to unbrick your phone? |
| 19:01.47 | aloril2 | 6) minor item: link from FAQ EU shipping mention to some email where Sean says so (also for previous P1+ links to source would be good) |
| 19:02.04 | [g2] | vmaster, hey :) |
| 19:02.45 | vmaster | hey [g2] |
| 19:02.49 | Elrond | $350 + shipping (+ VAT/customs maybe) |
| 19:03.21 | *** join/#openmoko _MacNorth (n=daijobu@71-208-108-154.hlrn.qwest.net) |
| 19:03.40 | aloril2 | SpeedEvil: does bluetooth have closed firmware that you can in theory update? |
| 19:05.29 | orpheus | hrw: thanks |
| 19:06.41 | aloril2 | closed nature of agpsd and GSM is problem for P0 devices (GPS not availble yet, GSM part side-tone problem) |
| 19:06.43 | hrw | aloril2: older CSR chips were updatable |
| 19:07.08 | hrw | aloril2: I have old BT dongle which support USB DFU |
| 19:08.37 | hrw | bbiab |
| 19:12.18 | SpeedEvil | I don't know if it's updatable. |
| 19:12.43 | SpeedEvil | All of them have some sort of firmware though. |
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| 19:20.23 | buz | neo is doomed without http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS4758820299.html |
| 19:20.42 | SpeedEvil | Is that the time-travel interface? |
| 19:21.22 | *** join/#openmoko mako__ (n=mako@bork.hampshire.edu) |
| 19:23.42 | timotimo | Anyone having troubles building openmoko-libs package? |
| 19:23.43 | aloril | timotimo: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
| 19:23.47 | timotimo | It seems that it wants to download <http://downloads.openmoko.org/sources/openmoko-libs_svn.openmoko.org_.trunk.src.target.OM-2007._1330_.tar.gz>, but that resource cannot be found. |
| 19:23.48 | *** join/#openmoko koen|galinhas__ (n=koen@189.16.225.25) |
| 19:24.13 | timotimo | I've tried 3x times, per MokoMakefile wiki. |
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| 19:27.01 | *** join/#openmoko mako (n=mako@bork.hampshire.edu) |
| 19:27.02 | Elrond | How much reference to the qt2410 board do we really need on the Main page? |
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| 19:28.30 | hrw | I think that qt2410 can be moved to history part |
| 19:28.44 | hrw | only coreteam used them |
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| 19:29.38 | orpheus | ok another question: is there anything we should do now if we're interested in buying 2 phones from phase one? |
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| 19:30.10 | *** join/#openmoko TimRiker (n=timr@216.49.181.128) |
| 19:30.27 | hrw | orpheus: subscribe openmoko announce ml to get info when they will be ready to sell them |
| 19:30.31 | orpheus | from the site, I get the impression of "look again in two weeks" |
| 19:30.33 | orpheus | ah |
| 19:30.39 | orpheus | ok |
| 19:30.42 | orpheus | thanks |
| 19:31.27 | *** join/#openmoko grgehunt (n=greg@88-108-116-195.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) |
| 19:31.40 | hrw | orpheus: 2-5 weeks iirc |
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| 19:32.20 | woglinde | counter |
| 19:32.20 | aloril | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review P1: 2 weeks, 5 days 16:27:39 (19.686 +-7.0 days) (see faq) (529) |
| 19:32.33 | *** join/#openmoko mako__ (n=mako@bork.hampshire.edu) |
| 19:33.17 | orpheus | cool. we're really liking your hardware, no offense to the greenphone |
| 19:33.33 | Elrond | hrw - Is there a history page? |
| 19:34.57 | Elrond | Oh, there is. |
| 19:35.15 | *** join/#openmoko apakatt (n=apakatt@c83-252-108-234.bredband.comhem.se) |
| 19:35.35 | Elrond | ... not exactly, what I expected. It explains the History app. ;o) |
| 19:35.41 | vmaster | hehehe |
| 19:39.26 | *** join/#openmoko libervisco (n=libervis@tuxhacker/libervis) |
| 19:40.55 | aloril2 | about closed stuff: consider change into EABI, kernel update, BSD port, etc..: will it be problem? |
| 19:42.27 | Elrond | GSM: No. agpsd: IMHO Probably. |
| 19:42.52 | ynezz | gsm is not that important in phone :p |
| 19:43.05 | aloril2 | with bluetooth and GSM firmware answer should be no in all cases, but in agpsd case some of these are problem, with hypothetical binary kernel module even bigger problem |
| 19:43.36 | guaqua | does gps transmit? |
| 19:43.43 | guaqua | if not, open source all the way |
| 19:43.59 | guaqua | it can't interfere, if it doesn't have transmitting capabilities |
| 19:44.08 | Elrond | guaqua - Huh? |
| 19:44.29 | guaqua | interfere with other devices |
| 19:44.45 | Elrond | It's only connected to one uart. That's all. |
| 19:44.51 | Elrond | ... oh, and an antenna. ;) |
| 19:45.27 | mjr | aloril2, well, Sean's been rather adamant about keeping the kernel clean |
| 19:45.46 | *** join/#openmoko MacNorth_ (n=daijobu@168-103-68-55.hlrn.qwest.net) |
| 19:46.11 | Elrond | Which is good. binary drivers in the kernel would have meant "no" for me. |
| 19:46.43 | Elrond | The binary agpsd bothers me already. But it's most likely fixable. And there' seems enough momentum to fix it. |
| 19:46.54 | mjr | yep |
| 19:47.13 | guaqua | btw, will the os be strictly utf-8? |
| 19:47.29 | Elrond | I even heard, that Harald is fighting global locate to get some specs open. |
| 19:47.34 | guaqua | or are there standards? |
| 19:48.11 | *** part/#openmoko drWyrM (i=c8db8414@gateway/web/cgi-irc/ircatwork.com/x-57ac7def31237695) |
| 19:48.35 | mjr | still haven't really had a chance to check it out myself |
| 19:48.53 | mjr | elections next sunday, a bit busy... |
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| 20:40.49 | pirulo | when will the FIC NEO be available?? |
| 20:40.58 | Ganneff | counter |
| 20:40.58 | aloril | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review P1: 2 weeks, 5 days 15:19:01 (19.638 +-7.0 days) (see faq) (530) |
| 20:43.02 | vmaster | faq? |
| 20:43.02 | aloril | See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ |
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| 20:58.00 | charlesnw | yegods! there are 266 people in here |
| 21:00.31 | CM | been about that for quite a while 250-275 :) |
| 21:00.45 | charlesnw | lots of interest in this phone/platform :) |
| 21:01.38 | hrw | 12 22:06 -!- Irssi: Peak for #openmoko@freenode: 283 (Wed Mar 7 21:14:22 2007) |
| 21:02.07 | hrw | in other words: record was 283 users on Wed Mar 7 21:14:22 2007 |
| 21:03.03 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03laforge * r1331 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/ (g_ether-vendor_product.patch series): use FIC's USB Vendor/Product IDs |
| 21:06.07 | *** join/#openmoko antenagora_study (n=antenago@217.171.42.114) |
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| 21:18.56 | hrw | http://www.hrw.one.pl/2007/03/12/programming-tools-which-i-use/ |
| 21:23.46 | *** join/#openmoko TimRiker (n=timr@216.49.181.128) |
| 21:27.31 | noidd | hrw: did you successfully unbrick? |
| 21:28.02 | TimRiker | is the hardware shipping? |
| 21:28.04 | hrw | to get neo booted I need to unplug debugboard. to get uboot control I need debugboard. |
| 21:28.14 | hrw | noidd: interesting situation... |
| 21:28.14 | noidd | TimRiker: P0 is out already |
| 21:28.20 | noidd | P1 is due in 3-4 weeks ish |
| 21:28.44 | paulproteus | !counter |
| 21:28.46 | noidd | hrw: ugh, |
| 21:29.04 | TimRiker | mmm... how do I get one? :) |
| 21:29.06 | hrw | noidd: and I do not have boot menu entries so no way to switch to usb console |
| 21:30.48 | noidd | TimRiker: were you one of the original 50? |
| 21:30.48 | paulproteus | !count |
| 21:30.49 | noidd | counter |
| 21:30.49 | aloril | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review P1: 2 weeks, 5 days 14:30:10 (19.604 +-7.0 days) (see faq) (531) |
| 21:30.49 | noidd | like that paul :-) |
| 21:30.49 | paulproteus | noidd, Thanks... (-: |
| 21:30.58 | hrw | and when I disconnect USB/AC and battery then I can boot into boot menu. but connecting USB/AC === boot |
| 21:31.38 | SpeedEvil | It boots when you have no USB or battery connected? |
| 21:31.41 | SpeedEvil | That's rather odd. |
| 21:32.15 | hrw | s/then I can boot/then I can boot after inserting battery |
| 21:32.30 | SpeedEvil | Ah. |
| 21:33.20 | hrw | in boot menu if I insert usb/ac then it boots. which === reboot endless.. each reboot == vibration + screenflash |
| 21:33.51 | *** join/#openmoko grge (n=greg@88-108-76-118.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) |
| 21:34.15 | TimRiker | noidd: nope. at least not that I'm aware of. |
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| 21:40.30 | paulproteus | Any idea if more precise time-to-availability information will be available somehow? |
| 21:41.36 | noidd | Well, P1 hardware going to be different since its going to fix at least two bugs in the P0 phones. |
| 21:43.41 | *** join/#openmoko _kaiser_ (n=kaiser@74-131-118-200.dhcp.insightbb.com) |
| 21:43.54 | hrw | a bit different |
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| 21:52.27 | SpeedEvil | Clock bug, wakeup sources? |
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| 21:58.29 | TimRiker | noidd: cool. how do I get in the queue for a p1? |
| 21:59.10 | SpeedEvil | there is no queue. |
| 21:59.11 | SpeedEvil | As yet. |
| 21:59.23 | hrw | shit. neo hit the ground/floor from ~80 cm. |
| 21:59.26 | SpeedEvil | There is a 'buying interest list' on the wiki - but this is not aofficial. |
| 21:59.42 | SpeedEvil | hrw: Can you write up your drop testing? |
| 22:00.15 | *** join/#openmoko mchang (n=mchang@nat-pool-128-69.olin.edu) |
| 22:00.21 | Elrond | s/not aofficial/just for fun |
| 22:00.38 | SpeedEvil | There will be a pre-order before the release, however, it's not been revealed how long. |
| 22:00.57 | SpeedEvil | wiki.openmoko.org - look at 'lists' - and then subscribe to the announce list. |
| 22:01.32 | Elrond | <-- isn't either. ;) |
| 22:01.41 | Elrond | I guess, $(counter) will tell me anyway. ;) |
| 22:03.01 | Elrond | Not to mention, that current counter is probably only the P0.999 date. ;) |
| 22:03.37 | Elrond | hrw - Has your neo survived? |
| 22:05.17 | hrw | Elrond: hard to tell as it does not want to power |
| 22:05.26 | hrw | and had problem with it before |
| 22:06.00 | SpeedEvil | Can you get a seperately charged battery? |
| 22:06.14 | SpeedEvil | No lab power supplies, or anything? |
| 22:06.26 | hrw | SpeedEvil: I do not own nokia phones or 3.7V supplies |
| 22:06.43 | Elrond | 3.3V supply should also do, I think. |
| 22:06.45 | SpeedEvil | 3*NiMH cells will actually work just fine. |
| 22:06.55 | SpeedEvil | As will 3.3V supply from PC. |
| 22:07.24 | hrw | will probably have to do such stuff |
| 22:07.24 | SpeedEvil | (connected to the battery connectors.) |
| 22:07.24 | Elrond | Shouldn't the neo also work without battery, but USB? |
| 22:07.25 | SpeedEvil | Getting it the wrong way round _will_ melt stuff. |
| 22:07.34 | rob_w | cool, now my neo keeps rebooting .. |
| 22:07.37 | rob_w | :-( |
| 22:08.09 | Elrond | rob_w - I hope, you have a working debug board? |
| 22:08.56 | SpeedEvil | 3.7 is nominal. |
| 22:08.57 | rob_w | no , i wasnt so lucky |
| 22:09.15 | Elrond | rob_w - :-(( |
| 22:09.16 | SpeedEvil | Lithium batteries vary from 3.0-4.2V or so under normal conditions. |
| 22:09.30 | rob_w | crap |
| 22:09.47 | Elrond | rob_w - How did you break it= |
| 22:09.49 | Elrond | ? |
| 22:10.03 | rob_w | good question |
| 22:11.48 | rob_w | rwhitby, u there ? |
| 22:11.55 | *** join/#openmoko Zer0HiT (n=Z@cpe-24-195-252-248.nycap.res.rr.com) |
| 22:13.54 | noidd | I dropped mine from shoulder height onto concrete |
| 22:13.59 | noidd | and it survived without a scratch |
| 22:15.11 | Agrajag- | heh.. im hoping these drops aren't deliberate |
| 22:15.48 | SpeedEvil | They need to take - when they have P1 phones - if they are mechanically identical - 4 of the P0 phones and drop test them. |
| 22:16.06 | SpeedEvil | from increasing heights, till they break. |
| 22:16.18 | hrw | uf. jtag reports registers |
| 22:16.25 | SpeedEvil | It's data I want to know. |
| 22:16.43 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Have you put that on the Wishlist page? ;o) |
| 22:17.40 | SpeedEvil | I think it's premature. |
| 22:17.45 | rob_w | damn , is it now bricked without the debug board ?? |
| 22:18.03 | SpeedEvil | I think on balance i want P0 people coding. |
| 22:18.07 | vmaster | rob_w: did you try to upgrade u-boot? |
| 22:19.00 | rob_w | no |
| 22:19.08 | balrog-kun | br1ckage |
| 22:19.44 | *** part/#openmoko mchang (n=mchang@nat-pool-128-69.olin.edu) |
| 22:21.31 | Elrond | rob_w - I hope someone with a debug board is near you? |
| 22:22.33 | rob_w | i didnt do any bad to it .. yesterday i turned it off gracefully and now it keeps rebooting |
| 22:22.54 | XorA|gone | does P0 shipped phones have u-boot that does usb-serial? |
| 22:23.11 | Elrond | XorA|gone - think so. Probably from boot menu. |
| 22:23.39 | rob_w | i cant reach that menu .. it reboots before |
| 22:24.33 | Elrond | Disconnect usb, get the battery out, wait 3min. |
| 22:24.37 | rob_w | anyone openmoko at cebit on friday ? |
| 22:24.46 | Elrond | Then put the battery in, hold the AUX button, power-on. |
| 22:24.59 | rob_w | AUX ? |
| 22:25.02 | vmaster | 911 |
| 22:25.05 | Elrond | 911 button. |
| 22:25.09 | Elrond | Somewhere at the top. |
| 22:25.26 | Elrond | I'm still waiting for a pic of the aux/911 button. ;o) |
| 22:25.35 | SpeedEvil | There is one on the wiki. |
| 22:25.40 | SpeedEvil | Ok - it's from the inside... |
| 22:25.43 | rob_w | ahh that is a button .. what a surprise .. |
| 22:25.49 | rob_w | i though that is a IR thingi |
| 22:25.50 | rob_w | tsts |
| 22:26.02 | noidd | the button that looks like an irda port |
| 22:26.05 | XorA|gone | ah I see the menu, I really should upgrade my P-1 to latest stuff |
| 22:26.05 | XorA|gone | two debug boards in Edin scotland if people need de-bricking service |
| 22:26.09 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Let me rephrase: pic of the 911/aux button from the outside, for an assembled phone. ;) |
| 22:27.02 | hrw | XorA|gone: I need to get my p0 working |
| 22:27.48 | Elrond | hrw - Does openocd work? And: have you connected neo's usb to some port on your PC? |
| 22:28.18 | hrw | Elrond: openocd works. devirginator stages 0 1 works. |
| 22:28.27 | rob_w | i need sleep .. i will try tomorrow .. anyway if someone arrives at cebit with such a board would be a nice last resort for -- |
| 22:28.29 | hrw | Elrond: stage 2 fails during download |
| 22:29.33 | Elrond | hrw - Modify the environment, that stage 1 uploads, so you get a usb console. :) |
| 22:29.43 | Elrond | Then put kernel/rootfs on the microflash. |
| 22:30.07 | XorA|gone | hmm, something is wrong here :-) |
| 22:30.09 | hrw | Elrond: to get environment I need to get it booted with debugboard connected. which it REFUSE |
| 22:30.19 | hrw | Elrond: it boot ONLY WITHOUT debug board |
| 22:30.25 | hrw | and this makes me mad |
| 22:30.44 | hrw | SpeedEvil: round one near usb plug is power |
| 22:31.05 | Elrond | hrw - No. You can upload the environment via jtag. |
| 22:31.12 | SpeedEvil | yes, I know. |
| 22:31.40 | Elrond | hrw - devirginator puts the initial env that way in flash. |
| 22:31.57 | hrw | Elrond: which give me boot/factory reset options only |
| 22:32.14 | XorA|gone | hmm, my P0 turns on, immediatly turns off |
| 22:32.33 | Elrond | hrw - You can modify the devirginator env to give you an usb console. |
| 22:32.52 | hrw | SpeedEvil: http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=400718251&size=l - look at cross on left side of phone - thats aux |
| 22:33.26 | SpeedEvil | Yes. _I_ Know - that's why I wrote the FAQ. Is it OK to put that image on the wiki? If that's yours. |
| 22:34.03 | hrw | SpeedEvil: its photo taken by koen. phone owner is XorA |
| 22:34.16 | hrw | the only one white/red model probably |
| 22:34.31 | pH5 | severely limited edition |
| 22:34.46 | SpeedEvil | Ah. |
| 22:34.47 | hrw | Elrond: looking at devirginator default env it has those options already. |
| 22:34.54 | Elrond | Ahhh, using the Full extra large edition, one can see the button very nicely. :-)) |
| 22:35.09 | Elrond | hrw - Strange... |
| 22:35.59 | hrw | SpeedEvil: give notice to koen so he will know |
| 22:36.08 | hrw | Additional Information |
| 22:36.08 | hrw | © All rights reserved |
| 22:36.13 | SpeedEvil | Yeah. |
| 22:36.15 | hrw | thats what flickr say |
| 22:36.56 | SpeedEvil | koen|away: I'm in your flickr, steelin your fotos. |
| 22:38.09 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Using a crop of the extra lage would be useful, really. |
| 22:38.19 | Elrond | But that requires modification permission from koen. |
| 22:39.40 | XorA|gone | http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=212 |
| 22:39.45 | XorA|gone | ahah, thats my problem |
| 22:43.31 | Moo^^^ | hah. I have encountered exactly same bug with different phone :) |
| 22:44.03 | XorA|gone | hrw: whats wrong with your P0? |
| 22:46.27 | hrw | XorA|gone: #212 probably |
| 22:47.07 | *** part/#openmoko _law_ (n=_law_@213.173.86.202) |
| 22:49.36 | SpeedEvil | I'm unsure about how well it'll last though. |
| 22:51.59 | XorA|gone | hrw: managed to boot mine just by leaving it on charge a bit |
| 22:52.08 | XorA|gone | hrw: did you get a debug board? |
| 22:52.44 | hrw | XorA|gone: I have one |
| 22:53.00 | XorA|gone | hrw: at least you can do reset trick then |
| 22:53.12 | hrw | XorA|gone: I did not touched neo during last 10 minutes |
| 22:53.18 | hrw | XorA|gone: which trick? |
| 22:53.31 | hrw | XorA|gone: and maybe you know what is a meaning of leds? |
| 22:53.38 | *** join/#openmoko kmeyer (n=konrad@unaffiliated/konrad/x-000001) |
| 22:53.39 | CoreDump|afk | hrw: I take it you read the bug entry about your problem? |
| 22:53.47 | XorA|gone | hrw: Ive only used debug board v1 |
| 22:53.57 | *** join/#openmoko msroest (n=msroest@S01060040f41dad58.cg.shawcable.net) |
| 22:54.08 | XorA|gone | hrw: according to bug, hold down reset switch on debug board to make Neo charge |
| 22:54.25 | CoreDump|afk | http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=212 |
| 22:54.32 | hrw | CoreDump|home: read |
| 22:56.47 | hrw | ok. nokia770 on reset, digital camera on nokia to keep reset pushed |
| 22:57.05 | vmaster | if all it takes for the "reset trick" is a low on nRESET then you could use the OpenOCD, too, instead of putting something heavy on the button |
| 22:58.26 | hrw | which command to use? |
| 22:59.44 | vmaster | you have to strip the target line from the .cfg file, then telnet in and use "jtag_reset 1 1" (syntax is 'jtag_reset <nTRST> <nSRST>' with 1 meaning 'asserted') |
| 22:59.48 | CoreDump|home | is there a way to read the AUX button from userspace? It doesn't register w/ xev... |
| 23:00.19 | hrw | CoreDump|home: recent kernel has it as key iirc |
| 23:00.31 | CoreDump|home | hrw: ahh excellent, thanks |
| 23:00.47 | hrw | I go sleep |
| 23:00.54 | CoreDump|home | n8 hrw |
| 23:03.04 | hrw | cu |
| 23:04.44 | Elrond | hrw|gone - The stage 1 does NOT do usb console! |
| 23:04.52 | Elrond | At least not in the divirg* in svn. |
| 23:06.13 | hrw|gone | Elrond: cool.. stage 2 fails on rootfs |
| 23:06.38 | hrw|gone | I go sleep. neo is connected to wall usb charger so maybe will get some power. |
| 23:07.07 | hrw|gone | I do not want to buy DT-14 just to get rid of #212 bug (dt14 is nokia external charger for bl-5c battery) |
| 23:07.13 | Elrond | hrw|gone - Okay... ask me tomorrow, I'll tell you where to fix divirg* to make it usb-serial after stage 1. |
| 23:07.21 | hrw|gone | ok |
| 23:07.47 | hrw|gone | Elrond: you can also mail me at openmoko@hrw.one.pl or add this info into wiki and tell me url |
| 23:07.53 | hrw|gone | Elrond: thx a lot for help |
| 23:08.02 | hrw|gone | have a nice talk guys |
| 23:08.55 | Elrond | hrw|gone - Let's see. :-) |
| 23:11.19 | *** join/#openmoko larstobi (i=larstobi@theseus.fa-s.ntnu.no) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 23:11.31 | *** join/#openmoko aevin (n=brootvor@150.80-203-127.nextgentel.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 23:12.19 | *** join/#openmoko CM (i=cm@shaka.acc.umu.se) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 23:12.42 | CoreDump|home | looks like neos kernel in .dev is a bit "lacking" |
| 23:18.27 | *** join/#openmoko orpheus (n=scott@dsl027-165-210.atl1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 23:18.38 | Elrond | ~change usd 794.95 to eur |
| 23:18.50 | Elrond | ~change 794.95 usd to eur |
| 23:22.11 | Elrond | Another strange way of doing thumb based keyboard: http://images.overstock.com/f/102/3117/8h/www.overstock.com/images/products/L10480944.jpg (no idea, if it's copyrighted!) |
| 23:23.08 | grge | looks kinda slow |
| 23:23.41 | grge | as a p900 owner my prefered method of mass text entry is using the keypad + T9 |
| 23:23.45 | Moo^^^ | most cool input methods are patented |
| 23:24.02 | grge | maybe followed by handwriting for short stuff, and the onscreen keyboard for fiddly things |
| 23:24.34 | Elrond | grge - T9 is patented. |
| 23:24.55 | grge | what about that other one |
| 23:25.22 | grge | i remember my friend had to implement it for a project at uni once |
| 23:25.22 | Elrond | (not that I know the answer to your question) Which other one? |
| 23:25.50 | SuN | THe only legal response I can have to that is :( |
| 23:25.53 | grge | it's similar to T9, but can guess the world word i think |
| 23:25.53 | Elrond | vmaster - Please do. ;-)) |
| 23:26.03 | grge | word even :) |
| 23:26.29 | grge | erm whole |
| 23:28.22 | grge | it could be ezitap i'm thinking of |
| 23:28.23 | Moo^^^ | I had one cool input method similiar to Palm Graffiti |
| 23:28.28 | Moo^^^ | but I don't recall its name |
| 23:28.37 | Moo^^^ | it was based on finger/stylus hitting screen corners |
| 23:28.40 | Moo^^^ | very fast |
| 23:28.44 | Moo^^^ | and handicapped friendly |
| 23:29.34 | grge | i guess if it's modular you could let people roll their own and perhaps pay for non-OOS ones... |
| 23:29.37 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (i=foobar@dslb-084-057-185-197.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 23:30.40 | Moo^^^ | there is a lot of input method research available |
| 23:30.46 | Moo^^^ | very well researched subject :)= |
| 23:31.02 | Elrond | Or (dependeing on your region illegally) download patented methods from server in "the free world" ;) |
| 23:31.25 | Moo^^^ | found it! |
| 23:31.26 | grge | i didn't want to be so crass as to suggets that ;) |
| 23:31.27 | Moo^^^ | http://depts.washington.edu/ewrite/ |
| 23:32.12 | Moo^^^ | Elrond: well it exactly doesn't workaround patent holder IP, but for companies suing individuals is not worth of it |
| 23:32.37 | Moo^^^ | a bit like how anime subbers justify their own actions regarding copyright |
| 23:33.05 | Elrond | Moo^^^ - Huh? I don't understand you. |
| 23:33.08 | *** part/#openmoko suspence (n=spencer@208.187.196.34) |
| 23:33.24 | SuN | It's not like that at all. For the "free world" it's indeed free. |
| 23:33.31 | Elrond | grge - well, the free server could check, if the IP is from .us and warn people. :-) |
| 23:33.51 | Elrond | grge - And see Sun. |
| 23:34.02 | Moo^^^ | Elrond: if you are using patented software in US (e.g. MP3 player in Linux) and you don't pay for it, it makes you patent violator. |
| 23:34.05 | grge | using a dictionary with a binary tree style search doesn't really seem like somethign you could patent.. but then again... |
| 23:34.13 | Moo^^^ | Elrond: downloading it from somewhere doesn't change the thing |
| 23:34.21 | Moo^^^ | Elrond: it's just matter who is going to pay for your pleasure |
| 23:34.44 | Elrond | Moo^^^ - Yeah. I noted, that it (the downloading) would be illegal in the US. |
| 23:35.09 | *** part/#openmoko antenagora_study (n=antenago@217.171.42.114) |
| 23:35.21 | Elrond | Moo^^^ - But what's that with anime stuff? |
| 23:35.34 | Moo^^^ | Elrond: do you know anything about Internet anime scene? |
| 23:35.41 | Moo^^^ | Elrond: People fansub anime |
| 23:35.52 | Moo^^^ | Elrond: They rip episodes shown in japanese TV and distribute it to western world |
| 23:36.02 | Elrond | Ahh. |
| 23:36.12 | Elrond | That's pretty illegal. Even in the "free world". |
| 23:36.16 | Moo^^^ | they claim that "anime is not available in Europe" is a valid excuse for such action |
| 23:36.49 | Moo^^^ | but I don't believe that downloading patented code is illegal in US |
| 23:36.56 | Moo^^^ | Elrond: I believe that using it is illegal |
| 23:37.24 | Moo^^^ | and I think I have pretty good insight to this stuff :) |
| 23:37.24 | Elrond | I don't know US law in that area well enough. |
| 23:37.32 | Elrond | Okay. |
| 23:37.48 | Elrond | But anyway: For the "free world", this stuff is still free. |
| 23:37.48 | Moo^^^ | Elrond: if downloading code would be illegal then viewing the patent text itself would be illegal too! |
| 23:37.52 | Elrond | unlike anime. |
| 23:38.07 | Moo^^^ | anyway |
| 23:38.11 | Moo^^^ | there will be a company |
| 23:38.22 | Moo^^^ | who'll pay patents for openmoko and makes it carrier viable |
| 23:38.30 | Moo^^^ | unless there already is one |
| 23:38.39 | Moo^^^ | you need to pay GSM royalties anyway |
| 23:38.41 | *** join/#openmoko darmou (n=darmou@mail.planforlife.com.au) |
| 23:38.42 | Elrond | Yeah, probably. |
| 23:39.03 | *** join/#openmoko fatman2 (n=none@c-75-69-6-21.hsd1.vt.comcast.net) |
| 23:39.04 | fatman2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:39.28 | Elrond | Okay, where is the kick stupid people button? ;o) |
| 23:40.41 | serhei | ... lots of people will hate patent indemnification for OpenMoko phones. |
| 23:40.54 | Moo^^^ | serhei: orly :) |
| 23:41.06 | *** part/#openmoko fatman2 (n=none@c-75-69-6-21.hsd1.vt.comcast.net) |
| 23:41.30 | Moo^^^ | just toss in some money and the problem is solved. Korean GSM manufacturers pay 20% patent royalties of unit price. |
| 23:41.59 | Moo^^^ | because it's physical product you need to pay for something anyway |
| 23:42.06 | Moo^^^ | which actually makes things easier |
| 23:43.01 | Elrond | Yep. |
| 23:45.58 | serhei | Well, already agpsd is a binary blob (because of munitions regulations). Compared to munitions regulations, patents are nothing. |
| 23:47.07 | serhei | So, in the end, I don't give a damn about who has what patented. |
| 23:47.07 | Moo^^^ | laws |
| 23:47.58 | serhei | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hardware:AGPS#Q:_Is_an_open-source_GPS_daemon_able_to_be_distributed_by_FIC.3F |
| 23:48.20 | serhei | That page links to a page of US import restrictions. |
| 23:49.14 | serhei | It also conjures up the strange image of someone strapping a Neo to the front of a homebrew missile. |
| 23:50.45 | aevin | it's just for FIC to ship it with a gpsd blob if that's required by US lolish munition laws, and then everyone who cares about it can download a FOSS gps daemon from the lovely package repository :) |
| 23:51.49 | Elrond | aevin - That someone then shouldn't take the neo outside the US. Otherwise he's a smuggler. ;) |
| 23:52.15 | SpeedEvil | I suspect at the moment it's a binary blob as that's what global locate has always done, and no actual thought has gone into it. |
| 23:52.31 | aevin | Elrond: true. well, if that person often travels to the US of A they should perhaps keep the blob. |
| 23:52.43 | *** join/#openmoko balrog-kun (i=balrog@174-mo5-1.acn.waw.pl) |
| 23:52.55 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - I second that. |
| 23:52.58 | grge | i smuggled a gps into russian and china, they didn't seem to care :] |
| 23:53.12 | grge | well, gps receiver |
| 23:53.31 | Elrond | grge - Commercialy available gps receivers have the needed limitations. |
| 23:53.33 | aevin | but seriously, would the US customs check your daemon if it's compiled by FOSS or it's a blob? they'll have a signature of the blob binary to compare with? |
| 23:54.06 | grge | i think i actually filled out a customs declaration saying i had no gps device though :) |
| 23:54.12 | Elrond | aevin - Well, you could store all that on an encrypted partition. ;-) Without your cooperation, they can't check anything. ;o) |
| 23:54.25 | grge | though china's custom declaration asked if i was carrying any microbes... |
| 23:54.33 | SpeedEvil | IMO, the user will almost never - travelling to most countries - IIRC china is wierd) |
| 23:54.39 | serhei | The guy at customs is not going to bother to take your P1 Neo, connect it to their government computer, then drill into the filesystem to see which gpsd you're using. |
| 23:54.40 | SpeedEvil | get problems with the GPS. |
| 23:54.50 | SpeedEvil | Unless they _do_ strap it to a missile :) |
| 23:54.51 | aevin | "omg, this traveler has a Neo in his pocket. bring the lube and the bluetooth frogpad, Joe. we've got work to do!" |
| 23:54.55 | *** join/#openmoko infernix (i=nix@unaffiliated/infernix) |
| 23:55.04 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Hmmm, I think, I found the next missing picture, which adds to your picture-wish: I haven't seen the ear speaker. ;) |
| 23:55.13 | grge | tbh, unless you speak chinese, you won't get hassled, as nobody can speak any english :) |
| 23:55.18 | SpeedEvil | I've updated the button pics. |
| 23:55.24 | grge | and you are a big scary white westerner |
| 23:56.30 | SpeedEvil | My brother came back from the great wall with the _cutest_ pics of little chinese girl sitting on big stone lion. |
| 23:56.41 | SpeedEvil | Next to 'Do not sit on our national monuments' sign. |
| 23:56.47 | SpeedEvil | (in english) |
| 23:56.56 | grge | lol |
| 23:56.57 | aevin | any P0 devs that has tested the bundled ear plugs? do they deliver decent sound? |
| 23:57.01 | *** join/#openmoko dilinger (n=dilinger@wireless-82.media.mit.edu) |
| 23:57.19 | grge | was the grammar correct and everything?! |
| 23:57.29 | SpeedEvil | Yes. |
| 23:57.31 | grge | wow |
| 23:58.00 | grge | you see some great signs, like "comrades step forward" for a toilet |
| 23:58.21 | grge | comrades is also the word for gays in chinese... |
