irclog2html for #openmoko on 20070303

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00:16.17Elrondcounter
00:16.17alorilP0: 2 days 11:43:42 (2.489 +-1.0 days);  P1: 34.489 +-10.0 (see faq) (452)
00:16.28CoreDump|homeyeah baby!
00:16.57ElrondWaiting a month...
00:17.17CoreDump|homeWaiting a few days =)
00:26.02aevinCoreDump|home: can you video tape your dance and wiki it? :)
00:26.31aevinthe first one to do will have the freedom to define the Neo dance.
00:26.34rwhitbyCoreDump|home is such a neoform ...
00:26.58CoreDump|homeheh
00:27.26aevinCoreDump|home: and that someone can be YOU!
00:28.04CoreDump|home;)
00:28.11aevindoh! me neither :)
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00:30.29ElrondCoreDump|home - not even a digicam?
00:30.44ElrondI mean, one for still pictures, or how it's called.
00:31.15ElrondAnyway: Good night people.
00:31.23CoreDump|homeElrond: right, I got one of those. But my last working CF storage card kinda crapped out on me =)
00:31.31CoreDump|homen8 Elrond
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00:44.55CIA-7openmoko: 03laforge * r1229 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/lowlevel_foo.patch: board/neo1973/Makefile has arm-linux-objcopy hardcoded, use CROSS_COMPILE. (Closes: 230)
00:49.00CIA-7openmoko: 03laforge * r1230 10/trunk/oe/packages/linux/ (linux-gta01_2.6.20.1.bb linux-gta01_2.6.20.bb):
00:49.00CIA-7openmoko: Need to add ${STAGING_BINDIR} prefix to calls to the just-build uboot-mkimage. (Closes: #224)
00:49.00CIA-7openmoko: --Thi line, and those below, will be ignored--
00:49.01CIA-7openmoko: M oe/packages/linux/linux-gta01_2.6.20.1.bb
00:49.01CIA-7openmoko: M oe/packages/linux/linux-gta01_2.6.20.bb
00:49.32pjzx| [: 49: ==: unexpected operator
00:49.32pjz| ./configure: 49: function: not found
00:49.32pjz| ./configure: 49: Syntax error: Bad fd number
00:49.49pjzanyone know how to fix that? error in mtpaint-3.02-r0
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02:23.09CIA-7openmoko: 03rwhitby * r38 10mokomakefile/trunk/patches/openmoko-HEAD/ (linux-gta01.patch series): Removed kernel.bb patch - applied upstream.
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02:45.04aevinMoRpHeUz: quick! we must evacuate Nebucanezzar! ;)
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02:58.54MoRpHeUzaevin: =P
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03:31.37peepshas anyone here used the mokomakefile?
03:31.57peepsCannot determine version for monotone using "mtn --version"
03:32.03peepsi get this error for some reason
03:32.32peepsrunning "mtn --version" in terminal tells works for me
03:47.01rwhitbypeeps: what version of mtn are you running?
03:48.43peeps0.24
03:50.03rwhitbytoo old - you need 0.27 at least
03:52.08peepsok, upgraded to .33, thx
03:55.26peepsdoh, version is too new now
03:56.49peepsgot a 404 from for the .33 file at http://www.openembedded.org/snapshots
04:00.39rwhitbyyep.
04:00.48rwhitbydownload the 0.32 version, and use that
04:02.44peepsyeah, i got it
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04:03.28peeps-goldilocksjust right
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04:05.14aevinthis should take hours, right?
04:05.32aevinperhaps i better just go to sleep... hm.
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04:11.57aevinrwhitby: great mokomakefile you've made.
04:12.42aevinnow it should be at least 2 of 2 people recommending it :P
04:14.04rwhitbyaevin: thx - my goal is to take the problem of supporting external developers trying to build the image off the shoulders of the core devs (at least for this initial period).  Then they have more time to make my phase0 phone better :-)
04:16.00peeps-goldilocksmaybe it is a nitpick, but it might help to change to mtn version error message to say "version too old" instead of saying it couldn't determine the version.
04:16.14aevinyes, it seems like the core devs is insanely busy atm. i feel kind of sorry for them, but it's their job, so ...
04:16.39rwhitbypeeps-goldilocks: what did "mtn --version" print for your old version?
04:17.01rwhitbythat check is meant to catch when people don't even have mtn installed
04:17.13rwhitbyI bet you have a monotone -> mtn shell alias or something, right?
04:17.52peeps-goldilocksI don't know exactly what it said verbatim.  i did have to do an alias for the old version though
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04:19.40peeps-goldilocksmonotone 0.24 (base revision: d59847072bb689e952ab21db7f9fababdb80a19f)
04:19.42rwhitbyright - that message says that the noninteractive shell cannot find a 'mtn' command (which yours couldn't)
04:19.58peeps-goldilocksi reinstalled just for you ;-)
04:20.00rwhitbyso the message it printed it correct.
04:20.31rwhitbythe diagnosis could be one of a couple of things.  'mtn' not being a real command, monotone not installed at all, mtn not in path, ....
04:20.46rwhitbyso "version too old" would not be accurate in a lot of cases.
04:20.52peeps-goldilocksyeah, i put the alias in my .bashrc
04:21.14peeps-goldilocksdon't know why the script wouldn't see that though
04:22.11peeps-goldilocksnot a huge deal though
04:22.37rwhitbya makefile calls /bin/sh non-interactively, so a .bashrc may not get executed.
04:22.52rwhitby(it's a makefile, not a script - very different beasts)
04:23.50aevinall the sources and builds for openmoko-devel-image requires ~7 GiB disk space?
04:28.29rwhitbyaevin: if you put INHERIT += "rm_work" in your local.conf, then it reduces that significantly
04:28.49aevinwhat does that mean?
04:28.50rwhitby(it removes each tmp/work/*/foo dir after each one builds correctly)
04:30.06aevinlocal.conf accepts '#' for comments, right?
04:30.14rwhitbyyep
04:30.35rwhitbycan you put that on the mokomakefile wiki page please?
04:31.43aevinokay.
04:40.05catchjoshI'm sure you guys get hundreds of these a day, but has any developer received their 'gratis' hardware yet?
04:40.05alorilcatchjosh: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
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04:40.56aevincatchjosh: no, the phase 0 devs are still waiting
04:41.00aevincounter
04:41.00alorilP0: 2 days 07:18:59 (2.305 +-1.0 days);  P1: 34.305 +-10.0 (see faq) (453)
04:41.47aevinaloril: sorry, didn't see you'd already answered his question :) *tired*
04:43.13alorilaevin: np, that was auto answer ;-)
04:43.41catchjoshaevin: Thanks -- are there any developers dedicated to 'blogging' (via photo, video, etc) their experience when they receive their unit? Obviously, there are far more important things to be done, but I have a feeling there are a lot of us who would like to see the evolution on YouTube or whatever...
04:44.46aevincatchjosh: yes, several P0 devs have promised us pics/vids. You should also keep an eye with the OpenMoko Planet website: http://planet.openmoko.org/
04:44.58alorilhttp://planet.openmoko.org/
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04:45.39catchjoshaevin: Thanks -- I've been reading the main mailing list for a while, but that doesn't seem to be the primary source of information. Sorry to take up your time, happy developing!
04:47.54aevincatchjosh: don't worry. btw, this IRC channel is quite a good source for keeping you updated, in addition to the mailing lists (MLs)
04:48.37catchjoshaevin: Thanks. As primarily a web / python developer, I know there's not much I can do to help except generally remain quite excited. :)
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07:22.27PBeckhi
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09:39.22NTNPsalut tlm
09:39.35PBeckhey yours :D
09:39.55PBeckis this correct english?
09:41.37NTNPeuh nope its french :p
09:41.47NTNPhello all here
09:41.49NTNP:)
09:42.17PBeckNTNP: i mean can i say "hey yours" for all user in the channel
09:42.46NTNPah :)
09:42.51atlahum
09:43.04PBeckthe same meaning as "hello all here"?
09:43.07bluelightningPBeck: wouldn't you just say "hey all" ?
09:43.12atlaD
09:43.12atla:D
09:43.22PBeckor is it better so say "hey you"?
09:43.42bluelightning"you" isn't plural though
09:43.43PBeckor how can i translate the german word "ihr" ;)
09:43.59bluelightningand you can't really say "yous" although some people in my country try...
09:44.18PBeckbluelightning: ok than i say "hello all" :D
09:44.32bluelightningPBeck: I do :)
09:44.57PBeckhehe :D
09:45.53PBeckhave the phase0 devices already arrived the first developers?
10:03.02SpeedEvilThe time in counter is only time to ship.
10:03.31SpeedEvilI'd assume it'd be posted to the mailing lists when it does, anyway.
10:03.49SpeedEvilAs sending stuff when the recipient does not know it's arriving is silly.
10:06.51PBeckSpeedEvil: yes thats right
10:07.36PBeckhehe the "Getting Started with your Neo1973" site have content :D
10:08.03PBeckhm can i add the photo of the neo to the photo page? I think thats usefull?
10:08.50PBeckso the new user can faster find any cool pics :D
10:09.18SpeedEvilClick 'edit' up at the top of the page. And see how the syntax works.
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10:10.56PBeckyes i know. i ask only if that is a mistake ;)
10:13.01PBeckhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Introduction#Outside
10:13.03PBeckis this ok?
10:18.02PBeckhm is it possible to print with the neo on a usb printer? I mean when the usb port it not powered?
10:18.10SpeedEvilLooks ok.
10:18.15SpeedEvilWell...
10:18.17SpeedEvilIt depends.
10:18.27PBeckfrom what?
10:18.32SpeedEvilSome peripherals will not recognise an unpowered host.
10:18.51SpeedEvilthey trigger on teh 5V being available to wake up.
10:19.20SpeedEvilIn that case, you'll need a powered hub (some of those also don't work on unpowered hosts)
10:19.27PBeckhm i can buy a mini usb hub with a power supply
10:19.32SpeedEvilYes.
10:19.43SpeedEvilWhere are you?
10:20.00PBeckhow you mean?
10:20.12SpeedEvilActually - irrelvant, mostly.
10:20.28PBeckyou mean from which country i am?
10:20.38SpeedEvilIt's just that US tends to have smallest adaptors, as they fold down nicely (the pins in the plug)
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10:21.00PBecki live in germany
10:21.26SpeedEvilIf you have a 'USB charger' - one of many devices with a 5V USB socket on it, then all you eed is a special cable.
10:21.39SpeedEvilTo make the USB port powered.
10:22.41PBeckhttp://www.amazon.de/Trekstor-220V-Netzladeger%C3%A4t-mit-USB-Anschluss/dp/B000ANW1YK/ref=pd_ka_1/303-0046159-2013877?ie=UTF8&s=ce-de&qid=1172917342&sr=8-1
10:22.46PBecki have this power supply
10:23.12PBeckwhich special cable i need?
10:23.25SpeedEvilA custome non-0standard one for the neo.
10:24.06SpeedEvilIt takes the power and ground lines, and connects them in parallel with the power and ground ones from the charger.
10:24.33PBeckfor the neo i need a mini usb connector
10:24.47SpeedEvilyes.
10:24.53SpeedEvilIt's be a cable with three plugs.
10:25.06SpeedEvilOne plugs into the neo. One into the charger, and one into the USB device.
10:26.18PBeckyes that will possible
10:26.31mjrby golly, I didn't even think that one can of course power a gadget from a wall socket when available
10:26.55PBeckperhaps we can build the cable self
10:27.04mjrand don't I recall that Sean said the basic kit would contain a wall charger? (Not sure, don't blame Sean if I don't recall correctly, but IIRC...)
10:27.09SpeedEvilOf course, the charger can be replaces by a battery with a 5V converter.
10:27.19SpeedEvilI think they said 'mini charger'.
10:27.33SpeedEvilHowever.
10:27.40SpeedEvile&qid=1172917342&sr=8-1
10:27.44SpeedEvilops
10:27.52PBeckhm what is a wall charger?
10:27.59SpeedEvilhttp://www.ebuyer.com/UK/product/106335
10:28.03SpeedEvilwors very well.
10:28.07SpeedEvilworks.
10:28.17PBeckwe have only a usb-cable to charge the neo in de basic kit
10:28.23SpeedEvilcharger that plugs into the wall.
10:28.49SpeedEvil(url is international multi-standard adaptor in a very compact package)
10:29.00PBeckyes no power plug
10:30.57mjrok
10:31.03mjrSpeedEvil, seems interesting
10:31.20PBeckbut it give a mass of power plug to usb charger
10:31.43SpeedEvilI've only used the UK plug, bit it seems to work well.
10:32.21PBeckmy mother use the trekstor charger i posted above to charge her music player
10:33.00SpeedEvilI like the above as there are no sticky-out bits, so you can put it in cases without worrying about it scratching stuff.
10:34.14mjrthere are those three-pronged USB cables with some (old?) usb hard drives so they can be powered from two parallel ports, are those sold separately?
10:34.44SpeedEvilPossibly.
10:34.56SpeedEvilThat won't actually work, as they are for full-sied hosts.
10:35.07PBeckSpeedEvil: yes that charger is nice too.
10:35.11SpeedEvilYou'd need a converter.
10:35.43PBeckyes i know
10:35.46SpeedEvilI'm considering ordering some cables and connectors, and aking a few USB cables for neo.
10:35.51PBeckSpeedEvil: where you are from?
10:35.54SpeedEvilUK.
10:35.56SpeedEvilScotland.
10:35.58PBeckok
10:36.10PBecki think it give connectors for germany too
10:36.14mjrSpeedEvil, I do have set of adapters that would come handy with that
10:36.35PBecki dont buy a UK charger when i can get a charger for germany ;)
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10:37.10SpeedEvilCurrently 15m nw of http://maps.google.co.uk/?q=56.21678+-3.111850+(home)&ie=UTF8&z=11&om=0
10:37.26SpeedEvilIt has connectors for almost everywhere.
10:37.33mjrthough with those I could only connect the Neo to a gadget with a large port, would need an extra adapter for a small port
10:38.43PBeckmjr: you can use the cable that would be in the basic kit
10:38.51PBeckSpeedEvil: nice ;)
10:38.54SpeedEvilYeah - I was considering a >3 headed cable.
10:39.17SpeedEvilwith host and device connectors of several sorts.
10:39.35SpeedEvilProblem is, it could get rather complex.
10:39.37mjrPBeck, umm, wouldn't combo with these adapters
10:40.18PBecki belief that the cable is a usb mini b to a usb typ A?
10:40.25mjrI'd need to convert a standard usb a male to usb mini b
10:40.35mjr(male)
10:41.11PBecka cable usb mini A to usb mini b is not usefull
10:41.36PBecki think it would be a mini to normal cable
10:42.06mjryou don't know what I have already, so you don't know what I need :]
10:43.22SpeedEvilHmm! http://www.maxim-ic.com/quick_view2.cfm/qv_pk/3639 USB host with SPI interface.
10:43.35PBeckmjr: i speak from the charger that postet from SpeedEvil
10:44.09PBeckmjr: and i speak from the provided cable in the basic kit
10:44.13PBeckwhich would it be
10:44.24PBeckmjr: perhaps i dont understand all what you mean ^^
10:44.30mjryes and I was talking about a three-pronged cable with two A males and one B male
10:44.40mjrused with that wall adapter
10:45.17mjrand the adapters one would need to connect the neo and a gadget with power being injected from the wall socket
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10:47.07PBeckmjr: oh ok.
10:47.17PBeckthis cable are already avaible?
10:47.39SpeedEvilThey are commonly available in some 2.5" drive cases.
10:47.43SpeedEvilOr at least were.
10:48.21SpeedEvilI think I've actually - somewehre - got a 2*A plugs, to mini-ab
10:48.53PBeckthat would be a nice accessories for the neo i think
10:48.59SpeedEvilBecauseUSB ports will not reliably provide enough current for a hard disk.
10:49.14PBeckwe should look at a good modell
10:49.51PBeckso we can perhaps speak with the manufacturer for a good price
10:50.20SpeedEvilI'm in a couple of days probably going to order some bits to make some prototype cables. Maybe $15 per.
10:50.33PBeckit would be very nice to connect with usb devices how printer and so on
10:51.26SpeedEvilAlso a small battery powered hub.
10:51.35SpeedEvilnot hub - cable.
10:51.39PBeckSpeedEvil: good idea, keep me informed ;)
10:52.10SpeedEvilI'll add a page to the wiki hardware page proll, if it becomes available.
10:52.18SpeedEvil'third party hardware' or something.
10:52.19PBeckSpeedEvil: super
10:52.52SpeedEvilOr maybe neo1973:third party hardware.
10:52.54PBeckso i have lunch now ;) See you later
10:52.59SpeedEvilwave.
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10:53.14PBeck:)
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11:07.00PBeckso i am back :D
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12:47.52aloril2counter4
12:48.03aloril2counter
12:48.04alorilP0: a day 23:11:56 (1.967 +-1.0 days);  P1: 33.967 +-10.0 (see faq) (454)
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12:57.53greentuxwhere in the faq I can read something for P1 in 33d +-10d?
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13:12.10aloril2greentux: hrw estimated yesterday 4-6 weeks for P1 in this channel
13:20.28greentuxaloril2:  mmh but no official statemant by sean...
13:21.03CIA-7openmoko: 03laforge * r1231 10/trunk/oe/packages/tasks/task-openmoko.bb: add base-files-doc to make sure /usr/share/common-licenses is populated
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13:26.52LuitvDcounter
13:26.53alorilP0: a day 22:33:07 (1.940 +-1.0 days);  P1: 33.940 +-10.0 (see faq) (455)
13:29.56bmidgleyhow sure are we about p0? :)
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13:32.16LuitvDbmidgley: bmidgley as sure as a week ago... i guess
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13:35.59LuitvDhey buz
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14:03.10aloril2greentux: fosdem video has comment by Sean
14:04.52aloril2or look at slides: they say late March (lower limit in P1 counter is 2007-03-25)
14:07.23aloril2P0 recipients got mail that said something like "no later than 2007-03-05"
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14:35.51CoreDump|homehi
14:41.01CIA-7openmoko: 03laforge * r1232 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/gta01-power_control.patch:
14:41.01CIA-7openmoko: * the gsm 'download' pin is only present in GTA01v4 and GTA01Bv2, so only export in sysfs on
14:41.01CIA-7openmoko:  those revisions
14:41.02CIA-7openmoko: * add a description on the empty suspend/resume functions
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16:04.32buzhttp://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/weblogsinc/engadgetmobile/~3/98948396/ seems quite positive
16:04.42buzand correct afaict
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16:33.50PBeckre
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16:50.20parag0nphase 1 is only $250?
16:50.26SpeedEvils/2/3/
16:50.48parag0nthats what i thought, but that engadget link says 250
16:51.09parag0nhttp://www.engadgetmobile.com/2007/03/03/openmoko-details-pricing-availability-for-neo1973/
16:51.18LuitvDit's 350
16:51.23PBeckhm nice 350 Dollar = 264.950795 Euro :D
16:51.26LuitvDeverything else says 350 ...
16:52.15LuitvDtheir info is false
16:52.31LuitvDthe hackers lunchbox was indeed 200 - 250 $
16:52.41LuitvDbut that one doesn't include a phone IIRC...
16:52.54SpeedEviloots :)
16:52.56SpeedEviloops.;
16:53.04parag0nahhh
16:53.23LuitvDFIC will offer the Neo1973 in two packages. A $250 "Hacker's lunchbox" comprises a development board, battery, charger, shoulder strap, USB A-B cable, and a boss-looking reinforced lunchbox container.
16:53.35LuitvDThe "Standard Kit," priced at $350 and likely available this fall, will include a phone, battery, headset, charger, case, stylus, lanyard, microSD card, MicroUSB cable, and manual.
16:53.53LuitvDThat's what linuxdevices says...
16:54.13LuitvDbut that "hacker's lunchbox" doesn't include a phone, does it?
16:54.19atlawho say 350dollars are 264e PBeck?
16:54.21atlas
16:54.41LuitvD~convert 350 USD to EUR
16:54.47atlaomg
16:54.56LuitvD...
16:55.01LuitvD~convert 350 USD in EUR
16:55.03atlayouve seen that ever happen on an electronic device?
16:55.07PBeckatla: http://www.google.de/search?hl=de&q=350+Dollar+in+Euro&btnG=Google-Suche&sourceid=Mozilla-search&start=0
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16:55.43PBeckthats the official conversion rate
16:55.46atlamost electronic products cost in germany same price in euro as in american dollar
16:55.50greghunt(stupid question) can you still hack with the standard kit?
16:56.38PBeckatla: i hope that 350 dollar are the fixed price
16:56.39atlamost of the times products just get same pricing in euro
16:56.57atlainstead of convertion
16:57.08PBecki think the end price will be ca. 280 euro
16:57.11PBecki hope so
16:57.57atlalook at the Wii, 250$ = 250$
16:58.01atlabad suckers :/
16:58.06atlaoh
16:58.09atla250€
16:58.21PBeckatla: 350 Euro => 462 dollar
16:58.29atlai know
16:58.42PBeckthats daylight robbery
16:58.56PBecki hope FIC will sell the phone to the normal price
16:58.57atlathats the truth here at least
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16:59.20PBeckno differences between the countrys
17:00.08PBeckatla: we have no official statement so we musst wait till september for the mass market
17:00.41PBecki think you hope too, that you only musst collect 250 Euro ;)
17:02.34parag0ni'm hoping for £180 in the UK
17:02.55parag0nits not going to happen, but i can always hope ;)
17:03.07PBeck<PROTECTED>
17:03.09SpeedEvilLook at the prices for phones with similar feature sets.
17:03.13PBeckyes that would be nice
17:03.14SpeedEvilIt's not dissimilar.
17:03.23SpeedEvilApart from the camera.
17:04.13PBeckgreghunt: lol
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17:07.44bhz_I will pay $20 via paypal if you DoS someone for 5 hours. will pay $4 every hour. message me if interested
17:08.03PBeckbhz_: lol
17:08.04peepsi didn't see it on the wiki, but does the neo have any buttons?  I assume there is at least one for power?
17:08.13SpeedEvilpeeps 2.
17:08.20SpeedEvilon/off, and '911'
17:08.22PBeckpeeps: two hardwarsbutton as far as i know
17:08.29PBeck*hardwarebutton
17:08.44SpeedEvilMine is going to grow several more when it arrives.
17:08.51PBeckSpeedEvil: rofl
17:08.54SpeedEvilI need a picture of the upper case inside.
17:09.08PBeckSpeedEvil: you buy the hackers lunchbox?
17:09.12SpeedEvilNo.
17:09.20peepsa 911 button, really?  will it be configurable for any other uses?  sounds like it will be too easy to accidentally dial 911
17:09.34SpeedEvilyes, it's totally configurable.
17:09.51PBeckso i will pick up greghunts question
17:10.01PBeckcan i hack the phone without the lunchbox?
17:10.11SpeedEvilSure.
17:10.25SpeedEvilThe only reason the lunchbox is handy is the debug connecotor.
17:10.30SpeedEviland the debug board.
17:10.43SpeedEvilHowever, that's only needed if you somehow manage to overwrite u-boot.
17:11.22PBeckpeeps: you can all do what you like. You can configure your phone for example with one number that you can call ;)
17:11.38SpeedEvil<PROTECTED>
17:11.50PBeckSpeedEvil: what can i do with the lunchbox in detail?
17:12.00SpeedEvilIt's got a debug board in.
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17:12.13SpeedEvilSo you can play with hardware debugging through JTAG.
17:12.18PBeckSpeedEvil: is the debug board only for the bootloader?
17:12.24SpeedEvilNo.
17:12.30peepsCould a single application temporarily override the default functionality of the button?  Or would it be a specific setting that the user would configure each time it needs changing?
17:12.33SpeedEvilIt also exposes a serial port.
17:12.54PBeckSpeedEvil: hardware debbuginh to find a defect component?
17:12.58SpeedEviland the JTAG. In practice, you should never need to use it to do 'normal' development.
17:13.13PBeck*debbuging
17:13.22PBeckSpeedEvil: what you will develop?
17:13.24SpeedEvilYou don't need JTAG to develop stuff on PCs, nor on the phone.
17:13.38PBeckSpeedEvil: thats good
17:13.39SpeedEvilLook at [[Expansion Back]]
17:14.38SpeedEvilFirst cut is probably an I2C GPIO chip soldered onto the expansion pads on the PCB, and some buttons/LEDs/thumbsticks.
17:14.49PBeckA flex cable from the microSD slot, to a full-size SD socket on the right-middle of the edge of the back of the phone (top right on the image)
17:15.00SpeedEvilThat sort of thing, yes.
17:15.26PBeckin the basic kit is a 512 mb mircosd card right?
17:15.30SpeedEvilyes.
17:15.40SpeedEvilIIRC. They are really cheap now though.
17:16.13SpeedEvilFullsize SD gives you cheaper cards, and SDIO.
17:16.42PBeckSpeedEvil: and intern we have a 64 mb memory?
17:16.48SpeedEvilyes.
17:16.57PBeckSpeedEvil: yes fullsize are cheaper
17:17.40SpeedEvilCheaper, and actually safe to handle :)
17:17.53PBecki think the neo should have a offset slot ^^
17:18.00PBeckwhy safe?
17:18.12SpeedEvilSafe, as in microSD are comparatively fragile.
17:18.13bhz_I will pay $20 via paypal if you DoS someone for 5 hours. will pay $4 every hour. message me if interested
17:18.17SpeedEvilBeing so damn small.
17:18.34SpeedEvilbhz_: FOAD, wrong channel.
17:18.57PBeckbut this is ok, preferably a intern slot as no one
17:19.22PBeckSpeedEvil: hm that sounds not good
17:19.28SpeedEvilTrue - it'd be nice to share data easily.
17:19.42SpeedEvilThe cards are somewhere around 15*10mm*1mm
17:19.49PBeckhm i will bhz ip-adress :>
17:20.20PBeck+s ;)
17:21.05PBeckSpeedEvil: when the hardware refresh comprised wifi we have the beste phone on the world :D
17:21.11PBeck*best
17:21.15SpeedEvilI want a camera too.
17:21.27SpeedEvilEven not a great one is _very_ handy.
17:21.33PBeckSpeedEvil: hm i think wifi ist usefuller ;)
17:21.39SpeedEvilGesture interfaces, reading barcodes, ...
17:22.02PBeckhm ok nice ideas
17:22.20PBeckperhaps we can add a camera extern, but we need a power plug
17:23.01PBeckrespectively the camera musst powered
17:23.52PBeckbut i think wifi, gps would be very nice for the first model
17:24.36PBecklinux without network is how a biker without a bike ^^
17:25.37Lumpio-Exactly :I
17:25.41Lumpio-That's what really annoys me
17:25.52Lumpio-The phone runs Linux, which has awesome networking features
17:26.14Lumpio-But the only ways to get connected to the Internet is GPRS, which is slower than a 56k modem or Bluetooth which requires you to stand within 10m from the five Bluetooth Internet APs in the entire /world/.
17:26.21Lumpio-one of the five*
17:27.23Lumpio-My ideal phone would be the current model + wifi + camera + slightly larger screen + actual buttons (touchscreen only is kinda limited for... games)
17:27.36Lumpio-EDGE or something wouldn't hurt either
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17:28.11PBeckLumpio-: we have two hardwarebuttons
17:28.35Lumpio-Yeah, one of which is the power button
17:28.42PBeckyes?
17:28.51PBeckwhat is the other?
17:29.05PBeckLumpio-: wifi can be in the hardware refresh in june
17:29.08Lumpio-A general-purpose one?
17:29.09Lumpio-I really like the idea on the wishlist page about having directional buttons on one side of the screen and some action buttons on the other side (like a game controller)
17:29.18PBeckLumpio-: bluetooth would be a option at home
17:29.25Lumpio-Indeed it would
17:29.41Lumpio-Wouldn't be too hard to plug a Bluetooth dongle into the server... the range covers the whole house methinks
17:29.55Lumpio-And I'm asking for a lot :P I said that would be "my ideal phone", but true idealness rarely happens IRL.
17:30.16Lumpio-Not saying "you better implement all that or I'll be very angry and bad things will happen"
17:31.11PBecki think the neo with openmoko gps and wifi would be come near to my ideal phone ^^
17:31.11Lumpio-Hm, what is that hole doing in the phone btw?
17:31.28PBeckwhich hole?
17:31.42Lumpio-http://www.gadgets-reviews.com/images/gadget-moko-2.gif <- that one
17:32.13PBeckat the bottom?
17:32.16Lumpio-Yes
17:32.41SpeedEvilthe hole is a lanyard attach point.
17:32.49PBeckyou can i hang on your neck ;)
17:32.51SpeedEvilIf you mean the big one next to the screen.
17:32.52PBeckit
17:32.57Lumpio-I guessed that but isn't that a bit huge for a lanyard >_>
17:33.12SpeedEvilIt's actually the GSM antenna.
17:33.22SpeedEvilThe round bit.
17:33.33Lumpio-I think that hole is a nice place for an image sensor ;)
17:33.35SpeedEvilWhich is a bit silly - as the GPS points downwards.
17:34.05PBeckSpeedEvil: what you mean with the gps points?
17:34.10PBeckhow downwards?
17:34.23Lumpio-Ah well, I'll probably end up buying some version anyways... can't really see better phones ATM
17:34.44SpeedEvilthe GPS antenna, when you have it hanging on the lanyard points down.
17:34.55PBeckLumpio-: i too. i would that the project will be a success
17:35.04SpeedEvilSatellites, by definition are sort of upwards, so it's a compromise :)
17:35.14PBecki will ...
17:35.26PBeckSpeedEvil: hä?
17:35.42PBeckmy typos are very bad -.-
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17:38.00PBeckSpeedEvil: oh ok i understand -.-
17:38.31PBeckthe antenna musst point to the satellites ...
17:38.49SpeedEvilIt will sort-of-work, it won't be as accurate as if it was the right way up.
17:38.58Lumpio-Hm, actually, speaking of GPS
17:38.59SpeedEvilAs it won't pick up the overhead ones.
17:39.03Lumpio-Does the phone have a compass sensor? o_O
17:39.06SpeedEvilNo.
17:39.11PBecki didnt see your post above ..
17:39.28Lumpio-It would be incredibly neat to be able to hold the phone horizontally and have a map on the screen automagically turn the right way.
17:39.36SpeedEvil3 axes fluxgate would be _very_ cool.
17:39.43PBeckLumpio-: i a compass possible with the coordinates?
17:39.46SpeedEvilThough in practice...
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17:39.54Lumpio-PBeck: Nah, GPS only gives you a position
17:39.55SpeedEvilYou can get heading from the GPS.
17:39.59Lumpio-If you keep moving you can get a heading
17:40.00SpeedEvilif you're moving.
17:40.06Lumpio-But if you turn while standing still...
17:40.11PBecki walk few meters in all directions
17:40.31SpeedEvilThe only way to fix that would be either a compass, or gyros.
17:40.32PBeckhow exactly is the gps chip?
17:40.41SpeedEvilHow exactly?
17:41.11SpeedEvilIntegrated gyros are available in very small packages, for $10 or so, but still...
17:41.11PBecki mean how exactly can i locate my position
17:41.23SpeedEvil5m in 1s.
17:41.38SpeedEvilProbably 2-3m over 10s averaging.
17:41.46PBeckSpeedEvil: ok then i walk 10 m in every direction and i have my compas
17:41.47PBecks
17:41.48SpeedEvilAnd sub 1 meter if you average for 12 hours.
17:41.54PBecki think that would be a nice application
17:42.18SpeedEvilUnder .5m may be possible if differential GPS can be done. But this requires a network link.
17:43.04Lumpio-Actually, how much of GPS error is "random"?
17:43.29SpeedEvilComplex.
17:43.30PBeckwhat you mean with differential GPS?
17:43.31SpeedEvilThe major source of error is the upper atmosphere.
17:43.32Lumpio-I mean, if you move "slowly enough" the errors caused by the atmosphere and everything would be quite much constant, right?
17:43.41SpeedEvilThis introduces systematic per-satellite errors.
17:44.05SpeedEvilI wrote this up on the wiki - look up [[agps]] and the bit on dgps, and the link.
17:44.08SpeedEvilBriefly.
17:44.20SpeedEvilDGPS is a local 'ionospheric weather' forecast.
17:44.33SpeedEvilThat lets you predict the ripples in the atmosphere.
17:44.42SpeedEvilAnd get sub-metre predictions.
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17:45.47borg_counter
17:45.47alorilP0: a day 18:14:12 (1.760 +-1.0 days);  P1: 33.760 +-10.0 (see faq) (456)
17:46.30PBeckhm ok is it so possible to walk a few meter so find the direction?
17:46.31Lumpio-Hm
17:46.42SpeedEvilyes.
17:46.50Lumpio-Take one phone with a mobile data connection, camera and GPS, put it onto a robot... WORLD DOMINATION right from your own home!
17:47.12Lumpio-Remote controllable no matter where in the world it is \o/ (Well, almost)
17:47.32LuitvD:P
17:47.52PBeckLumpio-: lol
17:47.56Stephmwisn't that the idea behind some of the X10 stuff?
17:48.02LuitvDmy robot can possibly carry a neo...
17:48.05SpeedEvilX10 is local-only.
17:48.21PBeckSpeedEvil: where can i see your robot?
17:48.59Lumpio-I don't have a robot either :(
17:49.02Lumpio-(Legos don't count >_>)
17:49.07Lumpio-Need to build one.
17:49.35PBeckoh ok wrong nick ^^
17:49.47Lumpio-You know it would be quite possible to build a remote-controllable robot that can "survive" for a long time without maintenance
17:49.55Lumpio-Have it charge off any outlets you find
17:50.03Lumpio-(Okay, assuming nobody breaks it >_>)
17:50.40peepswhat do you guys think of this idea: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wish_List#Vibrate_Pattern_Recorder
17:50.47peepsi just added it
17:51.12denis^wegLuitvD, did you got reply ? :D
17:51.19denis^weg(everyday the same question :) )
17:51.41Lumpio-peeps: Heh, seems easy enough to code :P
17:51.41SpeedEvilpeeps: sounds not insane.
17:51.50LuitvDdenis^weg: every day the same answer also
17:51.55peepslol, not insane is good
17:51.58LuitvDdenis^weg: which is: not yet
17:52.39PBeckhm anybody can add the compas :D
17:52.56PBeckpeeps: nice idea
17:53.05PBecki think thats new ;)
17:53.20SpeedEvilConsider that accellerometer and compass and gyros would cost around $50 all-in.
17:53.29Lumpio-Ouch
17:53.35SpeedEvilThat would add $100 to the sticker.
17:54.00peepsi think an accelerometer chip is only like $5, probably less in mess
17:54.01SpeedEvilAnd I don't want a compass at all, just an accellerometer.
17:54.11Lumpio-oo
17:54.12peepss/mess/mass
17:54.38PBeckSpeedEvil: hm we dont need a compass extra. But when we have gps its very easy
17:54.58PBeckwe only musst analyse the coordinates
17:55.30SpeedEvilThe gyros and compass are more expensive than the accellerometer.
17:55.30SpeedEvilThe accellrometer is indeed around that in bulk.
17:55.30SpeedEvilA compass is a nice addition to GPS.
17:55.58SpeedEvilBeing able to simply swing round, and get your heading directly, rather than having to walk in the direction makes it considerably easier.
17:59.35Lumpio-Having a map automatically turn in the right direction or having an arrow point at your destination would be incredibly neat.
17:59.35PBeckyou can swing your neo with your arm 5 m around you?
17:59.35Lumpio-lol
18:00.08PBeckLumpio-: where you get the map?
18:01.51peepshttp://www.analog.com/en/prod/0%2C2877%2CADXL330%2C00.html
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18:04.21CoreDump|homeanyone else having problems compiling / configuring gconf-osso?
18:04.27peepswith an accelerometer, you could make the phone scream for it's life while in freefall.  lol
18:05.16LuitvDhehehe
18:05.36CoreDump|homeI can see the headlines: "The last sound you will ever hear!"
18:05.39PBeckpeeps: rofl
18:05.47LuitvDlolz
18:06.30Lumpio-PBeck: Where I'd get the map? I'd probably steal it from Google Maps.
18:06.44Lumpio-Or this Finnish equivalent (has better street maps for Finland :P)
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18:09.07PBeckLumpio-: ok but you dont can use the maps with gps
18:09.31PBeckthe neo have a micrphone?
18:10.19peepshehe, well, it is a phone...
18:10.37PBeckomg rofl
18:10.45PBeckyes you are right
18:10.51PBecki am silly :P
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18:11.23Lumpio-PBeck: Why can't I use the maps with GPS
18:11.37PBeckis this possible?
18:11.42Lumpio-Um, of course?
18:11.48PBeckhow?
18:11.54Lumpio-Why not
18:11.55PBeckwithout a data connection?
18:12.03Lumpio-Duh, of course with a data connection
18:12.26Lumpio-Even GPRS is fast enough for this
18:13.00PBeckthen it is not a good option, when you havent a flatrate ...
18:14.32PBecka phone flatrate is expensive beside a flaterate for the pc at least in germany
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18:14.55Lumpio-Well I'm talking about a map software that's suitable for me, of course
18:15.04Lumpio-I'm not sure if I'd even want to distribute software that leeches off Google Maps
18:15.07Lumpio-They don't like it
18:15.23Lumpio-I can get flatrate GPRS for 10€/month here in Finland
18:15.59PBeckthat sounds good
18:16.03PBeckhere 15 euro or more
18:16.05peepsit is possible to put coordinates into google maps though
18:16.09peepshttp://maps.google.com/maps?q=37%2057%2011.98%20N%20121%2005%2015.76%20W
18:16.39Lumpio-Why not?
18:16.43Lumpio-It's just some maths :P
18:16.56LuitvDpeeps: these coördinates are more interesting: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=38%C2%B013%2736.38%22N,+112%C2%B017%2756.59%22W&layer=&ie=UTF8&z=18&ll=38.22631,-112.298598&spn=0.002019,0.005332&t=k&om=1&iwloc=addr
18:16.57PBeckpeeps: yes with a data connection it will very easy
18:16.59Lumpio-Google does it, of course anybody else can do it too
18:17.59LuitvDa bloody cruise missile, in google maps :)
18:18.17PBeckopenstreetmap is a nice project, but it will be hard work for a few maps
18:18.48Lumpio-It's too bad that there are no truly free maps out there :\ That cover more than a little of the globe :P
18:18.54peepswow, is that really a missile?
18:19.17peepswonder where it was headed...
18:19.18LuitvDpeeps: it's a cruisemissile, yes :)
18:19.26LuitvDa real one
18:19.36LuitvDmaybe without a payload, but it's flying :)
18:19.46Lumpio-It's probably headed to a... test site :P
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18:22.00PBeckLumpio-: you can make maps for finnland ;)
18:22.05Lumpio--_-
18:22.10Lumpio-Too lazy to
18:22.14PBeckfrom all big cities :>
18:22.19Lumpio-I'm a coder, not a cartographist...
18:22.32PBeck:D
18:22.48GaKkGaKkThe missile was propably heading for lunch.
18:23.06LuitvDlol
18:23.08GaKkGaKkFrom launch to lunch in just 10 minutes.
18:23.16peepsXD
18:24.55PBeckrofl
18:25.22Lumpio-o_O
18:26.14PBeckhm we can buy commercial maps from tomtom or other manufacturs
18:26.27Lumpio-They cost mone
18:26.27PBeckits only a price question
18:26.28Lumpio-y
18:26.42peepsmost maps come from navteq anyways.  google, yahoo, etc
18:26.46PBeckLumpio-: then you cant buy the neo
18:26.51Lumpio-lol
18:26.51PBeckthat cost money too :P
18:27.00Lumpio-No I mean
18:27.05PBeckLumpio-: what you mean :P
18:27.09Lumpio-Good enough maps are available for free at maps.google.com
18:27.11PBecksay it me ;)
18:27.11Lumpio-Why pay for them
18:27.18Lumpio-Of course hardware costs money
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18:27.22Lumpio-Maps are not hardware
18:27.29PBeckLumpio-: you pay for your flatrate ;)
18:27.48Lumpio-Because there is no free service.
18:28.34PBeckyes of course
18:28.43PBeckhow maps => anybody musst create the maps
18:28.57Lumpio-o_O
18:29.01PBeckwhen we create them that are free of course
18:29.09Lumpio-Well yeah, but they're still "free" to be downloaded from maps.google.com...
18:29.39Lumpio-They're not going to notice my client's requests if I make them look like ones created by their software :P
18:29.54Lumpio-With the correct Referer and User-agent headers they won't be able to tell the difference >_>
18:29.57PBeckLumpio-: can we legal use the material from google in our applications?
18:30.01Lumpio-No, you can't
18:30.07Lumpio-That's why I wouldn't distribute my map software.
18:30.26PBeckLumpio-: yes ok ...
18:30.44PBeckwe muss find a better solution for all, perhaps we have later a good idea ;)
18:30.50PBecki go now eating ;)
18:30.51Lumpio-Yeah, it's not very nice considering the community but it's not nice to receive a cease-and-desist letter from Google either >_>
18:30.54PBecksee you later
18:31.01Lumpio-Byes
18:31.04PBeckLumpio-: yes of course
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18:34.21peepsLooks like maps for GPS devices cost about 99USD from navteq
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18:35.34peepsif there was software to read them, it would be a nice option for some.  would not require a connection
18:36.37peepsi don't think there will ever be good free & legal maps for complete download.
18:37.08peepsI imagine it takes an enormous amount of effort to make them and keep up to date
18:40.17SpeedEvilCheap satellites will happen eventually.
18:40.21SpeedEvilWhich helps.
18:40.53peepswell, ok for satellite data, but I think there has to be people to enter all the road data
18:40.53SpeedEvilTrue.
18:41.08SpeedEvilYou can pickup the locations of the roads - sort-of-reliably, given good imagery.
18:41.26SpeedEvilGetting the names requires better resolution :)
18:41.43SpeedEvilIt'd be a whole lot easier if they'd just write the names on the roads.
18:44.11peepslol
18:44.30GaKkGaKkAlthough you would keep getting "car" i rodnames.
18:44.37GaKkGaKks/rod/road
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18:52.27PBeckre
18:52.37LuitvDre?
18:53.49PBeckreturned
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19:02.26PBeckhave all map services a clause to use the data only with they clients of the services?
19:02.51PBeckor from the services
19:05.37SpeedEvilPretty much all of them say 'only use online'.
19:05.41SpeedEvilor equivalent.
19:05.52SpeedEvilThe reason is the underlying data providers require that.
19:05.55CIA-7openmoko: 03werner * r1233 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/gta01-backlight.patch:
19:05.55CIA-7openmoko: drivers/video/backlight/gta01_bl.c (gta01bl_init_hw): removed mysterious
19:05.55CIA-7openmoko:  initialization sequence
19:05.55CIA-7openmoko: drivers/video/backlight/gta01_bl.c (gta01bl_init_hw): reordered TC??B vs. TCON
19:05.55CIA-7openmoko:  according to manual (page 10-5)
19:06.46PBeckSpeedEvil: is it then ok, when you write your own client?
19:06.54SpeedEvilNo.
19:06.57PBeckthat it use online too
19:07.10PBeckno save from the map or so on
19:07.10SpeedEvilIt's not - go and read up the terms and conditions.
19:07.24SpeedEvilgetnerally, you are not permitted to save maps and use them in other than the browser.
19:07.30SpeedEvilThe exact terms are more complex.
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19:08.16PBeckok that answer "and use  them in other than the browser.
19:08.18PBeck"
19:08.36PBeckanswered my question
19:11.20peepshttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Hardware#GSM_Sidetone_too_loud  I wonder if the sidetone could ever be user configurable
19:12.04peepssays it is in GSM firmware, which I think is "untouchable"
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19:13.01PBeckhm ok i think the best solution is to create the maps self
19:13.18*** part/#openmoko rejo1 (n=rejon@c-24-7-58-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
19:13.22PBecki hope that the openstreetmap project will be grow ^^
19:13.22CoreDump|homepeeps: it isn't untouchable. From what I read it _could_ be updated "In The Field" but OM isn't allow to hand out firmware blobs
19:14.22PBeck-be
19:14.28SpeedEvilI'd be willing to pay a reasonable amount for map data.
19:15.16SpeedEvilI think you need to have TI  bless new blobs.
19:16.37SpeedEvilhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Lunar-eclipse-2004.jpg nice composite.
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19:17.19PBeckSpeedEvil: i am too
19:17.26PBeckbut we musst look
19:17.30SpeedEviloops - mischan - the image.
19:17.36PBeckfirst gps is good to mark points
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19:17.46PBeckand track your way
19:18.28PBeckso i look now a movie
19:18.30PBecksee you later
19:18.36SpeedEvilEven simple direction to target is good navigation.
19:18.51PBeckSpeedEvil: yes i think so too
19:19.00PBeckwe only need a good and easy application
19:19.09PBeckso get the direction
19:19.35PBecklog coordinates and mark points
19:19.45PBecks/so/to
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19:53.13peepsI have an idea for another use case for this page: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/PIM_Storage
19:53.25peepsI don't know if it's ok for me to add to that, or if I should put it on the wishlist
19:57.45nnpiggyThe basic principle of wikis is to just edit.
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19:59.41peepsok, i just wasn't sure if some pages were supposed to be more official than other
20:04.48SpeedEvilIn general, feel free, unless it is clearly something that you know nothing about.
20:07.36peepsdoes someone know what the effective range might be between two neo1973 devices over bluetooth?
20:07.43peepsabout 30 feet?
20:07.43SpeedEvil10m
20:07.49SpeedEvilfor the class of devices in the neo.
20:08.12SpeedEvilprobably 5m, if you want to take into account the 'users facing away from each other' case.
20:08.54*** part/#openmoko libervisco (n=libervis@tuxhacker/libervis)
20:09.35peepsare there regulations against putting class 3 chips in devices like this?
20:09.41SpeedEvilPower.
20:10.13peepscould a class 3 chip run in class 2 mode most of the time?
20:10.25SpeedEvilI don't know.
20:10.35SpeedEvilAlso expense and size I think.
20:10.53SpeedEvilPlus, it might interfere with the GPS or GSM bits if too strong.
20:11.27peepsi just have this kind of silly idea of using the devices as a walkie talkie over bluetooth.  but the range is so short that you would probably be able to just talk directly to the person
20:11.40SpeedEvilUnfortunately, yes.
20:12.24peepsthe minutes are free though!
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21:10.10emulsionis there a firm date now for March release of neo1973 hardware for purchase?  I know there have been some delays recently
21:10.41SpeedEvilLate march.
21:10.50SpeedEvilIs a bout as good as it gets.
21:10.53emulsionthx
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21:13.17PBeckpeeps: walkie talkie nice ;)
21:13.35PBeckperhaps, when wifi is avaible you can voip ;)
21:14.42SpeedEvilOr there could be a bluetooth loudhailer.
21:15.10peepswhat is a loudhailer?
21:15.22SpeedEvilMegaphone
21:15.34PBeckhttp://www.picsuk.com/images/loudhailer.gif <= loudhailer ;)
21:15.49peepsman, i can't stop thinking about all the crazy applications that are possible
21:16.27PBeckthat would grow to a big hole, when wifi will be in the device ^^
21:16.52PBeckthen you never cant stop ^^
21:17.38peepslike during a call you could specify to have audio output sent along with your voice.  could play part of a song for someone, etc
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21:18.48peepsor have a soundboard of audio clips and sound effects.  (if anyone has heard the arnold schwarzenegger prank calls for example)
21:19.13SpeedEvilsoundboard has problems.
21:19.13Psi_heh
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21:19.18SpeedEvilyou have to take phone away from ear to press one.
21:19.38peepswell, wear a headset ;)
21:22.11peepsanother idea is that the phone could recognize certain whistles or something(maybe clapper style), to aid in finding it.
21:22.26peepsthat might just waste battery though, processing the mic constantly
21:25.00PBeckpeeps: you mean that you find the name of a song out?
21:25.42peepsno, i mean to find your phone when you lose it.  you could program it to recognize a particular call, and it would respond "I'm over here"
21:26.03PBeckah ok yes that would be nice
21:26.24PBeckbut its easier, you can call the phone :P
21:26.46peepsyeah, i know... they can't all be perfect ideas
21:27.44peepsalso, maybe you could attach an infrared LED to the headphone port, and use it as a universal remote.
21:30.28PBeckpeeps: that should be possible with the 2.5 audio jack
21:30.41PBecki have read about in the mailinglist
21:30.42PBeckone moment
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21:31.57PBeckhttp://features.engadget.com/2004/07/27/how-to-turn-your-ipod-in-to-a-universal-infrared-remote-control/ <= peeps
21:33.51PBeckhttp://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001571.html <= peeps i have search the mail for you
21:35.32PBeckperhaps you find that interresting ;)
21:37.10peepsvery cool, thanks for the links
21:37.41PBecki think that would be a good option wihout a big convert of the neo
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21:40.36PBeckpeeps: perhaps we can advance the good idea
21:41.38peepswhat do you mean?  what should we do?
21:42.43SpeedEvilIt's already on the wiki
21:42.59SpeedEvilsearch on infrared on the hardware ideas page.
21:44.03PBeckhm good question. The neo should able to record direct from a remote control, but thats not easy over a output ;)
21:44.10PBeck+be
21:45.05peepsPBeck: well, the 2.5 audio jack is in/out, so you could theoretically record IR samples with it too
21:45.13PBeckor we can read out a remote controll with many code that we can add direct on the neo
21:45.16SpeedEvilGo and look up SIR/FIR
21:45.27SpeedEvilIt's standard and fast infrared ports.
21:45.31PBeckpeeps: cool
21:45.41PBecki dont know that
21:45.55SpeedEvilIt's quite possible to read sstandard remotes
21:45.59peepsSpeedEvil: yeah, i didn't see that before.  that is talking about having it built into future hardware releases though.  using the audio jack is something that could be done with current hardware
21:46.01SpeedEviland write the outputs.
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21:46.28SpeedEvilActually not - the frequency is too fast - you'd need _some_ smarts.
21:48.03PBeck:(
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21:49.16Elrondcounter
21:49.17alorilP0: a day 14:10:43 (1.591 +-1.0 days);  P1: 33.591 +-10.0 (see faq) (457)
21:49.36peepsdo you know what the frequency of the neo hardware is? for audio jack input and output?
21:51.59peepsIR remotes mostly work on 38Khz i think
21:52.06Psi_you can use one audio channel to output enough power to run a 555 timer at 40hkz then use the other channel to turn the timer on/off
21:52.43Psi_although, some sound chips dont like you to leave a channel at fullscale for to long
21:53.36Psi_might even be able to use the mic channel to read IR codes into the neo
21:54.41Psi_err ment to say 40kHz
21:55.33PBeckdirect readout would be the best
21:56.00PBeckperhaps we can create a database with the "songs"
21:56.42Psi_just make an application that generates the codes itself, no need to store them as sounds
21:56.44PBeckthe first problem is how we can build this "tool"
21:57.06Psi_its a neo, you dont need to use hacks to get around stuff like you do with the ipod
21:57.08peepshttp://lirc.sourceforge.net/remotes/
21:57.09Psi_:)
21:57.09PBeckget the leds the power over the audio jack?
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21:57.26Psi_PBeck, yea, we dont have a choice
21:57.57PBecki am not the hardware geek so i dont know if the audio jack have power ;)
21:58.17Psi_na, afaik they have ground, 2 output channels and 1 input channel (mic)
21:59.30peepsI would think the audio signal is enough to power an led.  It can power a headphone speaker, so...
21:59.56PBeckPsi_: wow very nice :) We need the hardware and a software that they can use lirc
22:00.12Psi_i seem to remember the sound on the neo was 1Watt per channel,   1 watt / 3.7volts = 270mA
22:00.17PBeckPsi_ und peeps yes you are right
22:00.21Psi_assuming it uses that voltage
22:01.17PBeckyes
22:03.52PBeckhttp://www.weblogsinc.com/common/images/1364949848426816.JPG?0.5853767793427668 <= hm anybody a idea how that can work
22:03.53PBeckwhat is inside?
22:03.57Psi_i know 2 ways it "could" work, dunno which its using though
22:04.07peepsPsi_ concerning voltage, I think most IR leds are around 1.5.  maybe that is why the ipod example link used 2 LEDs
22:04.23Psi_yes, i just checked that too
22:04.39Psi_two also gives you more range
22:05.17peepsPBeck: i doubt there is anything inside that except for two LEDs wired in series
22:05.50PBeckyes?
22:06.10PBeckso easy?
22:06.15*** join/#openmoko greentux (n=lemke@tmo-057-80.customers.d1-online.com)
22:06.35Psi_most soundcards can do 44.1kHz which is high enough to generate the 40khz carrier freq
22:07.08Psi_doing it that way then yes, you just connect the led directly to the audio connector
22:07.35*** join/#openmoko TarasBulba (n=gorkem@81.214.127.147)
22:07.51PBeckthan we can realise this idea i think :)
22:08.13Psi_people are definitely going to do this
22:08.17Psi_its been talked about before
22:08.30PBeckPsi_: yes on the mailinglist
22:08.37Psi_i reckon it would be  better to put the leds inside the neo and cut a small hole to poke the led through
22:08.53Psi_even if you did connect them up to the audio connector inside
22:09.07PBeckthat was the reason why i have posted it to peeps ;)
22:09.32Psi_side effect would be that your neo would act as a JAMMING device for IR systems when you were playing any music/mp3s etc.. :P
22:09.58PBeckrofl
22:10.02Psi_since it would always be outputting ir data when the soundcard was being used. even for music
22:10.10peepsPsi_ yeah that would be a sweet hack.  while you were at it, you could add a little mini switch to enable/disable it
22:10.20Psi_yeah,i think that would be a good idea
22:10.28greghuntbeing able to easily hardware mod the neo might be a nice feature
22:10.47greghunthave a few connectors for people to solder stuff to
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22:10.48PBeckPsi_: when it is in the case we musst change it
22:10.58PBeckthats not for all a good option
22:11.21Psi_your not making much sense PBeck
22:12.08PBeckhm what you mean? my english?
22:12.31Psi_yeah
22:12.46peepsi think he is saying that not everyone wants to cut holes in their brand new $350 device
22:12.54Psi_oh, yeah
22:13.00PBeckyes exactly :D
22:13.01Psi_<-- will
22:13.16PBecksorry. i work on my english.
22:14.30SpeedEvilI suggested a connector for the needed wires, to make [[expansion back]] work better - but it seems not to be happening at least for P1.
22:15.02PBeckwhen my sentence contain mistakes you can say that to me ;) I can only become better ^^
22:15.07Psi_i hope we get some sold points inside on the pcb that are just general i/o
22:15.14Psi_sold=solder
22:16.14peepsPsi_ yes that would be nice
22:16.29PBeckpeeps: you can good translate my funny language ^^
22:16.57SpeedEvilYou don't really need GPIO, if you have I2C.
22:17.03SpeedEvilI2C/SPI is so cool.
22:17.13SpeedEvilTehre is so much available from it.
22:17.58SpeedEvilConnecting GPIO chips to it is easy.
22:18.23Psi_i think the point is that you would need a I2C>GPIO chip in the first place
22:18.32Psi_not exactly alot of room inside there
22:18.47SpeedEvilThere is lots.
22:18.50Psi_for an expansion module yes, i2c, but for a led, its overkill
22:19.02SpeedEvilTrue.
22:19.33*** join/#openmoko ozamosi (n=ozamosi@85.8.1.10.se.wasadata.net)
22:20.10SpeedEvilwiki:  Changes from GTA01Bv3
22:20.10SpeedEvil<PROTECTED>
22:20.11SpeedEvil<PROTECTED>
22:20.22SpeedEvilSo you get one GPIO.
22:20.34SpeedEvilProlly need a transistor too.
22:20.50Psi_yeah
22:21.23PBeckwould be a flexible wire a good solution that you can form how you like?
22:21.41SpeedEvilflexible wire?
22:21.42Psi_hehe wakeup capable, Psi points a tv remote at his neo and turns it on
22:23.03PBeckhttp://onlineshop.rnib.org.uk/local_images/products/thumbnails/tn_dh94.jpg
22:23.08PBecki mean that
22:23.35PBecknot inside
22:23.40PBeckperhaps a good outside idea
22:23.47PBecknot only the connector with the leds
22:24.01Psi_i wonder what they are going to do about warrentys? since people will be modifying them a lot
22:24.16PBeckhum yes that can be a problem
22:24.39Psi_pretty hard to prove if the phone stopped working because the user shorted something or if there was an actual fault
22:24.42SpeedEvilI hope they will take the view that it is part of the design cost.
22:25.07SpeedEvilThey are in effect getting dev work, a hell of a lot of it for free.
22:34.32PBeckso i go offline now
22:34.34PBeckbye
22:35.41peepsbye
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22:47.38Psi_http://www.engadget.com/2007/03/03/openmoko-details-pricing-availability-for-neo1973/
22:47.50Psi_does that say what it looks like its saying?
22:47.58Psi_or am i seeing things
22:48.16SpeedEvilIs that the $250 quote?
22:48.19SpeedEvilit's wrong.
22:48.21Psi_yes
22:48.22Psi_ah,
22:48.34Psi_pity :P
22:48.36SpeedEvilWe think they took the price of the hackers lunchbox and ...
22:48.59CoreDump|homehmmm
22:49.20Psi_so the hackers lunchbox is $250 ontop of the 350 for the phone?
22:49.26SpeedEvilno, it's $200
22:49.33Psi_hehe, so they even got that wrong
22:50.41ElrondAnyone any idea, how partitioning works?
22:51.06Psi_for fat32 yes
22:51.10ozamosiI do that sometimes... Take one part of one number, and one part of another number, and end up with something completely wrong.
22:51.25ElrondPsi_ - on the neo. ;)
22:51.42mjryou make a partition table on the hard disk or other mediain one format or other, indicating which block ranges are to be used for which partition
22:52.02Psi_sounds pretty standard to me
22:52.17Elrondmjr - How do you do that on flash on the neo?
22:52.41Psi_why would it be any different to a hdd?
22:52.52Psi_its just a block of bits
22:53.08mjr*shrug*
22:53.10Elrondflash is not like a hdd.
22:53.16Psi_compact flash is :P
22:53.38Psi_but yeah, i have no idea how minisd works
22:54.05SpeedEvilMicroSD
22:54.09SpeedEvilminiSD is a bit smaller.
22:54.09Psi_ah
22:54.17SpeedEvilerr - larger.
22:54.22SpeedEvilEleectrically identical.
22:54.26Psi_yea, i ment to say micro
22:54.30SpeedEvilAlso - they are basically block devices.
22:54.40SpeedEvilThough with a wierd interface.
22:54.54SpeedEvilThey do all the wear leveling, and flash 'reality' hiding.
22:55.17SpeedEvilThe NAND flash on the motherboard has all the warts exposed.
22:55.26SpeedEvilYou've got to do the bad block mapping in hardware.
22:55.39Psi_id imagine the driver takes care of everything and you just partition the /dev/hda or sda or whatever with fdisk or whatever linux partitioning app you want
22:56.07SpeedEvilYeah - for the SD.
22:56.16SpeedEvilIt works just like any block device.
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22:57.46Psi_Elrond,  is that what you meant?
22:58.14peepsso there is 64MB Flash built in that the device boots from.  what sort of things are stored in microSD vs builtin flash?
22:58.36Psi_id imagine the built in flash is mounted somewhere, maybe /boot
22:59.43peepsso basically just the kernel and whatever bootloader stuff is there, and all apps and remainder of the distro would be on the microSD?
22:59.51SpeedEvilThe 64M stuff is all that is need to make it a fully featured phone.
22:59.58SpeedEvilwith several meg of user data.
23:00.01SpeedEvilIdeally.
23:00.04Psi_ah, so hehe i had it around the other way
23:00.12SpeedEvilNothing is on the SD.
23:00.24SpeedEvilSo that the user can easily swap it out for music, or ...
23:00.24Psi_the microsd will mount somewhere
23:00.40Psi_yeah, makes sense now that i think about it
23:01.00Psi_does the phone come with a microsd card?
23:01.18ElrondNo.
23:01.24ElrondHuh.
23:01.32SpeedEvilI think it comes with a 512 card.
23:01.33Psi_good, dont want to get a tiny card and have to take it out to but in a big one
23:01.37peepsi thought it did with 512
23:01.37Psi_damn
23:01.40SpeedEvilAnyway - 512 cards are _cheap_
23:01.48Psi_but=put
23:01.52SpeedEvil2G cards I don't think are available yet.
23:02.10peepsi coudn't find one a few months ago.  biggest was 1g
23:02.15SpeedEvilThere are possible hardware problems with using 4G cards.
23:02.15ElrondPsi_ - I meant the partitioning on the 64MB nand ram.
23:02.18Elronds/ram/flash/
23:02.21Psi_2GB MicroSD Memory Card24 prices $52.00
23:02.46Psi_Elrond, yeah, i get you
23:02.54SpeedEvil2G cards may or may not work.
23:03.00SpeedEvil4G cards probably won't.
23:03.16SpeedEvilIt's possible that a SDHC driver may be doable in software.
23:03.18ElrondAnd the nand flash does not appear as /dev/[hs]sda
23:03.28Psi_that price is not US, i was just showing that you can get them
23:03.57mjr(There are some 2G available, and somebody confirmed using a Sandisk one on Neo on-list a while back)
23:04.01SpeedEvilWhat I find is very insane is that the 'new' SDHC standard craps out at 16GB.
23:04.13mjrSpeedEvil, pfft, wussies
23:04.13peepslol, seems funny to me, but the ram is twice the size of the flash storage. :p
23:04.19peepsthat's a good thing though
23:04.48Psi_yeah, bring on the 100GB microSD, i want every ep of stargate on my phone damnit :P
23:05.22SpeedEvilI don't see why the hell they can't get a clue.
23:05.31SpeedEvilI mean, 16GB is coming in maybe 6-7 years.
23:05.33peepsrofl @ stabbing hammer
23:05.52mjrSpeedEvil, but if they supported >16GB now, they wouldn't be able to sell all-new readers later
23:05.58SpeedEvilBy which time there will still be microSD, and some legacy devices will use it.
23:06.40mjrPsi_, a noble goal
23:06.54peepsi can't imagine much smaller than microsd, if you ever dropped it you might not find it again
23:07.17ElrondRight. I find it too tiny.
23:07.33Psi_mjr, heh
23:07.59SpeedEvilI can imagine a better design than microSD.
23:08.12SpeedEvilThe size of the connector for microSD is moderately large.
23:08.46ElrondOkay, I admit, cf is huge. But it at least feels like I can't break it accidentally.
23:09.05SpeedEvilMicroSD is just scary.
23:09.23ElrondYep. It doesn't feel right to me.
23:09.25Psi_PicoSD is just stupid!
23:09.35SpeedEvilI think an interesting form factor would be the size of the plastic bit in the USB plug.
23:09.44SpeedEvilNice and thick, and yet small.
23:10.02SpeedEvilPut the standard USB contacts on the back, and parallel contacts on the end.
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23:10.13Psi_they should layer it, make it a cube with say 5 chips
23:10.20SpeedEvilSo, you can read it just by pressing into a USB port.
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23:11.49ElrondBTW: A neo should be able to talk to another neo via usb-to-usb, right?
23:11.58Elixir-If someone writes it, sure.
23:11.59SpeedEvilWith the right cable, yes.
23:12.09SpeedEvilNobody needs to write anything.
23:12.10peepsi've never seen a cable like that though
23:12.20SpeedEvilIt's just the standard USB-net configs.
23:12.37Elixir-So you have to write some configs at least?
23:12.38Elixir-;)
23:12.39ElrondYep. usbnet should just work.
23:12.45Psi_why not use BT
23:12.49ElrondElixir- - Some "ifconfig". ;)
23:13.10ElrondPsi_ - For top secure transmission of one time pads. ;)
23:13.24Psi_ah
23:14.00SpeedEvilBT a fair bit slower too.
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23:16.23ElrondSpeedEvil - *G*
23:16.24aevinElrond: then you'll need a loooong usb cable!
23:16.36Psi_hehe
23:17.43peepsis BT slower than USB 1.1?
23:18.01Elrondaevin - Why?  Meet up in person, exchange otp, job done.  Not good for voice, but 1GB of SD OTP is enough for LOTS of text.
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23:18.27peepsanyone know why AB port was chosen over B?
23:18.38peeps(mini)
23:18.39SpeedEvilBidirectional.
23:18.49SpeedEvil1GB not enough for voice?
23:18.50ElrondWhat's AB port?
23:19.10SpeedEvilit's several days of voice.
23:19.17peepsUSB mini AB
23:19.18ElrondSpeedEvil - Hmm. 1GB might be good for 60-120minutes voice, maybe more... so: Yes.
23:19.25SpeedEvilDays.
23:19.26ElrondHmm, speex, yeah. :)
23:19.42SpeedEvil120 mins of uncompressed CD quality voice.
23:19.51SpeedEvilphone is not _quite_ CD quality voice.
23:20.26SpeedEvilAt likely codec rates it is about 2 days.
23:20.30peepsso usb mini B is not bidirectional?
23:20.39SpeedEvilAIUI no.
23:21.04peepsI think it works for the RAZRs
23:21.30peepsi just foudn it strange, cause i've actually never seen another device that uses mini AB
23:21.58peepsand I've already got mini B cables ;-)
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23:34.59peepshmm, if you could output sound files into the GSM chip, then another option would be to put people on "hold"
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23:35.57mjryou can control the audio feeds
23:36.08mjr(through the sound chip, not directly digitally)
23:37.22peepswhat do you mean not directly?
23:38.17Psi_i think he means you can specify where the GSM chip gets its sound from, but you cant tell it to output a signal directly
23:38.24Psi_but im just guessing
23:38.41mjrno, I mean that you can't feed digital audio data to the chip or get some from it
23:38.53Psi_isnt that what i said
23:38.55mjrit needs to go through the DSP's d/a or a/d
23:39.05mjrhmh, maybe :]
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23:40.24peepsi guess i don't understand enough about audio hardware
23:40.51Psi_is the mic on the headset a different input to the mic on the audio plug?
23:42.13peepsbuilt in microphone attached to wolfson MIC2/MIC2N, headset mic vial HS_MIC attached to wolfson MIC1
23:42.20peepshttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Audio_Subsystem#using_analog_.284pin_2.5mm.29_headset
23:42.33peepsso looks like they are different inputs
23:42.53Psi_yeah
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23:48.53SpeedEvilI think I got all of the (surprising number) of inaccuracies, then mention the wiki.
23:54.00ElrondOkay, after reading usb connector stuff on wikipedia again: Does the neo have a mini-b receptable or mini-ab receptable?
23:54.24mjrnimi-b
23:54.51peepsmini AB... according to the wiki
23:55.21peepshttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Hardware#USB_Device
23:55.46mjrhmh, misunderstanding, perhaps on my part
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