| 00:00.31 | mjr | I suspect they're planning for wifi but don't want to say it yet because of uncertainties in everything getting screwed up |
| 00:00.34 | CoreDump|home | LuitvD: Its gotta be wifi. Every one was/is bitching about missing wifi |
| 00:00.36 | LuitvD | Then I might even wait for P1+, and buy a P1+ for my birthday :) |
| 00:00.43 | Elrond | I don't want a cam on my handy. I already carry a 0.5kg real camera around, when and if I want to take useful pics. ;) |
| 00:00.55 | LuitvD | lol |
| 00:01.02 | LuitvD | mjr: oh yes you were ;) |
| 00:01.22 | mjr | was not |
| 00:01.22 | LuitvD | Elrond: true :) same here |
| 00:01.30 | Elrond | I wasn't bitching either. :) |
| 00:01.39 | Elrond | I don't even want edge. |
| 00:01.43 | mjr | I _was_ whining a bit about BT for about one message in the distant past, though |
| 00:01.49 | sixfeet | video runs in flash9 |
| 00:01.59 | LuitvD | mjr: why? |
| 00:02.28 | mjr | LuitvD, umm, for local wireless connectivity? :] |
| 00:02.41 | LuitvD | lol |
| 00:02.48 | LuitvD | mjr: bluetooth is cool :) |
| 00:02.54 | Elrond | Okay, I admit: I at least of exactly one wifi device at home already (ruter), but nothing I really care for. |
| 00:03.13 | Elrond | (and no BT device... maybe the phone of my dad has BT?...) |
| 00:04.09 | mjr | I've a 1.2 one ready, sufficient for most uses |
| 00:04.18 | Elrond | LuitvD - USB? How's the linux support for those? |
| 00:04.25 | _muk_ | http://www.pastebin.ca/373768 |
| 00:04.31 | mjr | Elrond, very good |
| 00:04.34 | LuitvD | Elrond: I'll find out soon :) |
| 00:04.52 | mjr | practically every dongle should work, though theoretically there may be exceptions |
| 00:05.09 | mjr | haven't heard of one yet |
| 00:05.12 | LuitvD | :P |
| 00:05.26 | Elrond | mjr - So it's usually "buy and be happy"?! |
| 00:05.28 | LuitvD | mjr: yeah, nearly every BT dongle uses the same chip |
| 00:05.31 | mjr | there's basically a limited set of bt chipsets in wide use which helps |
| 00:05.36 | mjr | *nod* |
| 00:05.42 | LuitvD | lol |
| 00:06.32 | Elrond | Hmm, fun. I'm still used to "buy and be screwed" or "investigate 2 months, buy and be 98% happy". |
| 00:06.35 | LuitvD | rwhitby: what's the range of that? |
| 00:06.36 | rwhitby | the cheap ones from ebay have very poor range, even though they say they are 100m |
| 00:06.55 | rwhitby | LuitvD: it covers my house |
| 00:06.57 | _muk_ | http://www.pastebin.ca/373774 |
| 00:07.15 | LuitvD | rwhitby: the BT device in my "Livebox" covers my whole house too :) |
| 00:07.34 | LuitvD | and it's actually a WiFi + BT PCMCIA card |
| 00:07.45 | LuitvD | which does very wel |
| 00:07.58 | Elrond | Anyway. Good night people. |
| 00:08.00 | LuitvD | WiFi and BT through the house |
| 00:08.12 | rwhitby | _muk_: looks like something has changed upstream |
| 00:08.29 | LuitvD | though the Firmware (linux based, they say... which I doubt...) crashes nearly every day |
| 00:08.44 | LuitvD | 'night Elrond |
| 00:08.58 | _muk_ | rwhitby: Well, seems like it's time to take a nap :-) |
| 00:09.11 | _muk_ | rwhitby: thanks for the help so far |
| 00:09.15 | mjr | (and my flat rate plan covers it as well as UTMS for future upgrades) |
| 00:09.36 | LuitvD | mjr: lol, I can recieve HSDPA here already :) |
| 00:09.44 | mjr | (though it has a 128k cap since I don't want to pay through my nose) |
| 00:10.03 | mjr | yeah well, as said, I could get UTMS if I had a phone for it |
| 00:10.04 | LuitvD | mjr: then what do you want to pay through? :P |
| 00:10.18 | mjr | and my next one ain't gonna be UTMS either, you know ;P |
| 00:10.35 | rwhitby | _muk_: pushing fix now |
| 00:10.39 | mjr | but the one after that may or may not be EDGE, hence its relevance :) |
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| 00:10.59 | LuitvD | I could have HSDPA, If I'd have the money for a phone and a contract |
| 00:11.02 | mjr | 'scuse me, UMTS |
| 00:11.05 | rwhitby | _muk_ (and others): note how well a full log pastebin speeds up the debug process ... |
| 00:11.26 | LuitvD | :) |
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| 00:11.35 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03rwhitby * r23 10mokomakefile/trunk/patches/openmoko-HEAD/linux-gta01.patch: Refreshed kernel build patch |
| 00:11.42 | LuitvD | anyways... good night everybody |
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| 00:11.57 | rwhitby | _muk_: patches apply now |
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| 01:02.01 | rwhitby | ah, the quiet time of the day ... |
| 01:03.20 | CoreDump|home | #openmoko is the channel with most traffic on my list |
| 01:03.30 | CoreDump|home | by far |
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| 01:09.18 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03ken_zhao * r1143 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/libmokoui/ (moko-alignment.c moko-finger-tool-box.c): moko-finger-tool-box:use "gtk_widget_style_get" to reset padding because "gtk_alignment_get_padding" can't get padding from gtkrc. |
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| 01:21.38 | rep | counter? |
| 01:21.38 | aloril | source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; a week, 2 days 10:38:21 (0.443 - 9.443 days) for devices for selected developers (2007-03-07); a month, 2 days (23.443 - 33.443 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-31); 7 months, 2 days (186.443 - 216.443 days) for mass market (2007-09-30): see topic for more info (410) |
| 01:25.37 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03jiang_li * r1144 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-simplemediaplayer/beep/Makefile.am: this commit add the link to libz. |
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| 02:09.05 | _muk_ | The pastebin thing shouöd maybe be documented in the Wiki... |
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| 02:22.39 | _muk_ | Now added to the wiki |
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| 03:27.37 | newbie_test7 | foo? |
| 03:27.40 | newbie_test7 | bar???? |
| 03:27.40 | aloril | newbie_test7: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ |
| 03:28.15 | aloril | uups, forgot /msg aloril prefix |
| 03:30.01 | aloril | last 2 nick count records: 263 2007-02-19; 270 2007-02-26 |
| 03:33.50 | newbie_test8 | bar |
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| 03:47.13 | Lo-Down | aloril, what are you doing? |
| 03:48.16 | aloril | did minor bug fix and minor feature addition |
| 03:48.37 | Lo-Down | to...? I'm a fairly new lurker to the chan |
| 03:48.38 | aloril | Lo-Down: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ |
| 03:49.24 | aloril | well.. it was related to above autotrigger (which might or might not be appropriate ;-) |
| 03:49.34 | Lo-Down | haha |
| 03:49.43 | aloril | Lo-Down: anyway, welcome here, not seen you talk earlier here |
| 03:49.50 | Lo-Down | i was like...ummm... |
| 03:50.07 | Lo-Down | not too much...used to lurk on oe and ipaq and gpe... |
| 03:50.25 | Lo-Down | this whole openmoko thing fascinates me |
| 03:53.17 | aloril | even if P1.5 had multi-touch, wifi, camera, HS[DU]PA, etc.. I would still buy P1, won't wait 4 months for any other device |
| 03:53.38 | aloril | of course P1.5 won't be this big upgrade ;-) |
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| 04:15.48 | bintut | hello all.. is the neo 1973 have its built-in wlan? |
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| 04:16.11 | aloril | wifi? |
| 04:16.11 | aloril | When version 1 was designed there was no sufficiently low-power WiFi chip available which has an open driver. You can attach (battery) powered USB hub to Neo1973 and then use supported WiFi USB stick. Also some later model at unknown time will include WiFi. For more information see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F |
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| 04:28.32 | aloril | probably keynote at FOSDEM 2008 and also about battery: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-February/003758.html |
| 04:32.27 | DesktopMa | aloril: Agreed :) I'm getting v1 as a dev/play toy |
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| 04:43.17 | bintut | aloril: yes.. wifi.. which at least an 802.11b/g |
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| 04:50.21 | rwhitby | bintut: aloril answered your question with the FAQ entry |
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| 05:50.09 | cbpage | heh i have an ngage qd which uses that battery |
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| 05:59.16 | CM | stefan_schmidt: Good clean slides :) |
| 05:59.32 | CM | That they run samba is truly weird %) |
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| 06:13.27 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03zhiyong_sun * r1145 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-footer/data/ (icon_app_history.png icon_app_toggle.png): update icon image: icon_app_history.png icon_apptoggle.png |
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| 06:56.50 | aloril | wifi, camera, faq will now trigger without question mark and upper case too (saw faq being invoked upper case without '?') |
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| 07:45.00 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03caowai_song * r1146 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-keyboard/layouts/ (211 files): Add all pixmaps to the source. |
| 07:45.51 | rwhitby | wow |
| 07:45.58 | CM | Just thinking the same.. |
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| 07:46.33 | koen | can we have the source of those pixmaps? |
| 07:46.47 | rob_w | so will the phase 0 units now travel out end of Feb ? |
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| 07:47.53 | rwhitby | all png files ... |
| 07:47.59 | CM | rob_w: In the fosdem talk sean said 26th or 27th, so early march |
| 07:48.29 | rob_w | thanks .. i didnt wathch it yet just downloaded it .. |
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| 07:49.34 | koen | The talk was like a renaissance painting |
| 07:49.45 | koen | a visionary leader and his devoted followers :) |
| 07:50.00 | CM | hehe |
| 07:51.11 | rwhitby | koen: was the trolltech guy asking a genuine question about carriers blocking the phones, or was it just FUD and politics? |
| 07:51.15 | *** part/#openmoko jicknan (n=jick@222.92.90.170) |
| 07:51.30 | rwhitby | (the one right in the middle of mickey's talk, not at the end) |
| 07:53.08 | koen | genuine |
| 07:53.22 | koen | although he's biased of course |
| 07:53.40 | koen | rwhitby: the TT guy was Knut, btw |
| 07:54.57 | koen | later all |
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| 08:04.21 | buz | could the carriers even know your phone is a neo |
| 08:04.45 | buz | where does the imei live? inside the gsm module? |
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| 08:12.44 | aloril | buz: I think somebody mentioned that here |
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| 08:20.35 | dneary | hi |
| 08:20.51 | dneary | Does Mickey every come in here? |
| 08:21.09 | aloril | new article referred from news.google.com (nothing new in there): http://www.manilastandardtoday.com/?page=business6_feb27_2007 |
| 08:21.11 | CM | dneary: Every day I'd say |
| 08:21.49 | CM | dneary: But he doesn't seem to be a morning person |
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| 08:34.12 | dneary | CM: Cool, thank you |
| 08:34.21 | dneary | CM: What's his nick? mickey? |
| 08:34.49 | CM | dneary: Usually mickeyl |
| 08:35.06 | CM | But maybe he has switched to dr.mickey now ;) |
| 08:35.45 | CM | ~seen mickeyl |
| 08:36.04 | apt | mickeyl <n=mickeyl@linuxtogo.org> was last seen on IRC in channel #oe, 3d 19h 19m 59s ago, saying: 'cya in a couple of hours'. |
| 08:36.48 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03tony_guan * r1147 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/ (3 files): to remove the segment fault on input panel |
| 08:37.46 | CM | ~seen mickey |
| 08:37.58 | apt | mickey <n=mickey@deneb.tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de> was last seen on IRC in channel #oe, 379d 13h 37m 5s ago, saying: 'ups'. |
| 08:47.29 | rd_ | what's the link to the latest MokoMakefile? |
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| 08:53.24 | alphaone | rd_: wget http://www.rwhitby.net/files/openmoko/Makefile |
| 08:53.42 | alphaone | or make update-makefile if you already have one |
| 08:54.07 | rd_ | alphaone, thanks |
| 08:55.01 | alphaone | np |
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| 09:28.42 | CM | I want the default dialer on OpenMoko to be a list with the last 20 numbers |
| 09:29.48 | CM | I'd say 80% of all calls I make with my k750 is by selecting the most common numbers, and 15% is from the address book |
| 09:29.48 | Stephmw | hey |
| 09:29.50 | CM | Typing in a number is maybe once a week |
| 09:29.56 | CM | Stephmw: Morning :-) |
| 09:30.38 | koen | CM: I think it's 90% over here |
| 09:31.04 | CM | koen: I think I'll start to actually cound it from now on |
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| 09:38.44 | CM | t0nY: Hello. Are you the dialer guy? :) |
| 09:38.58 | *** join/#openmoko altomkins (n=altomkin@81-86-47-56.dsl.pipex.com) |
| 09:39.20 | t0nY | no, i am tony tu |
| 09:39.25 | t0nY | :) |
| 09:40.26 | CM | Ok, just reading on the dialer page in the wiki and it says Tony guan, same as the CIA message above about updates to the dialer |
| 09:41.34 | t0nY | k, ic |
| 09:42.21 | t0nY | do you get phase 0 phone? |
| 09:42.37 | CM | No, but I'll buy at phase 1 |
| 09:43.03 | *** join/#openmoko Nik0 (n=lewmnik@host-137-163-16-202.edu.hel.fi) |
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| 09:49.50 | rwhitby | rd_: that link is now a redirect to the latest version of the MokoMakefile in the svn repo, so it's guaranteed to be up to date :-) |
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| 09:53.38 | Psi | phase0 phones out yet? |
| 09:53.52 | vmaster | http://embedded.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=197008670&pgno=1 |
| 09:54.11 | CM | Psi: Should be sent now, according to the fodsdem presentation |
| 09:54.19 | Psi | cool |
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| 10:01.07 | *** join/#openmoko ping_tu (n=ping_tt2@61.185.246.242) |
| 10:03.05 | ping_tu | hello |
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| 10:03.07 | aloril | CM: FOSDEM presentation said early March? |
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| 10:05.47 | ping_tu | ping |
| 10:06.12 | ping_tu | have you get it |
| 10:11.34 | aloril | counter? |
| 10:11.34 | aloril | source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; a week, 2 days 01:48:25 (0.075 - 9.075 days) for devices for selected developers (2007-03-07); a month, 2 days (23.075 - 33.075 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-31); 7 months, 2 days (186.075 - 216.075 days) for mass market (2007-09-30): see topic for more info (411) |
| 10:15.26 | *** join/#openmoko SirCrow (n=sircrow@sd511685b.adsl.wanadoo.nl) |
| 10:20.15 | Magon | _muk_: so finally i have rootfs for X86...but dont know what was the problems before |
| 10:21.36 | Elrond | jffs2 on x86? |
| 10:21.52 | Magon | just rootfs |
| 10:22.11 | Magon | since i dont have phone. it is best to work in x86 build |
| 10:23.15 | CM | aloril: It sounded like Sean said that because of the Chinese Newyear, the P0 phones would get shipped on Feb 26th or 27th, so arriving in the beginning of March |
| 10:23.50 | CM | It was somewhere in the middle of the talk |
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| 10:28.30 | aloril | in that case unmodified P0 counter was right, hmm.. |
| 10:28.37 | aloril | 2007-02-26 02:38:13 <SpeedEvil> phase 0 - early march, phase 1 - late march |
| 10:28.51 | aloril | so .. its about arriving, not when its shipped then.. |
| 10:29.37 | aloril | then just consider modified P0 as "arrives" counter ;-) |
| 10:29.43 | so_solid_moo | I thought people had P0 devices already? |
| 10:29.57 | aloril | so_solid_moo: who had them? |
| 10:30.09 | mjr | so_solid_moo, it was supposed to go that way, but there was still a bit of a delay |
| 10:30.20 | mjr | of course, the main developers have samples... |
| 10:30.23 | so_solid_moo | well, someone on the planet obviously has one :D |
| 10:30.26 | *** join/#openmoko dd1234 (n=test@61.185.246.242) |
| 10:30.42 | aloril | so_solid_moo: that is older prototype, software in it is several months old |
| 10:30.48 | so_solid_moo | ah, ok |
| 10:31.10 | dd1234 | hello |
| 10:31.11 | aloril | if you download source, compile and run you see its different now |
| 10:31.19 | aloril | hi dd1234 |
| 10:31.24 | _muk_ | Magon: nice! Well, I was stuck on some package that didn't downlod, but I downloaded it manually and it is still compiling. |
| 10:31.48 | Magon | _muk_: dropbear? |
| 10:31.53 | _muk_ | Magon: yes |
| 10:32.02 | Magon | _muk_: same as me.. at 4 am :-) |
| 10:32.18 | Magon | but i continued it when i woke up..at 7 |
| 10:32.46 | _muk_ | Magon: BTW, I added a note to the Wiki about pastebin, since I have never used it before, and maybe others haven't used it either :-) |
| 10:34.09 | Magon | :-) |
| 10:34.22 | Magon | what to do to be able to chroot as normal user? |
| 10:35.51 | inz | Magon, install fakechroot ;) |
| 10:36.25 | Magon | inz: thx |
| 10:38.03 | aloril | mjr: cool, you made just the reply I wanted to make/see ;-) |
| 10:38.09 | *** join/#openmoko buz (n=buz@80-218-148-33.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 10:38.22 | mjr | you're welcome :) |
| 10:39.07 | *** join/#openmoko chairuou (n=typn@unaffiliated/chairuou) |
| 10:41.22 | Magon | inz: i misread that and installed fakeroot :-( |
| 10:41.59 | Magon | ok..no fakechroot package in portage |
| 10:42.14 | mjr | damn, a typo in the mail. Ah well. |
| 10:44.16 | koen | LOL: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-February/003791.html |
| 10:45.21 | Elrond | koen - *giggle* |
| 10:45.21 | *** join/#openmoko florian_ (n=fuchs@217.146.132.69) |
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| 10:46.33 | florian_ | good morning |
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| 10:48.59 | VeSCeRa | hi all, where can i buy a Neo1973 :) |
| 10:49.44 | altomkins | in Sept |
| 10:50.33 | aloril | counter? |
| 10:50.33 | aloril | source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; a week, 2 days 01:09:27 (0.048 - 9.048 days) for devices for selected developers (2007-03-07); a month, 2 days (23.048 - 33.048 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-31); 7 months, 2 days (186.048 - 216.048 days) for mass market (2007-09-30): see topic for more info (412) |
| 10:50.41 | koen | aloril? |
| 10:50.51 | koen | ok, that one doesn't work :) |
| 10:50.54 | aloril | koen: hehe |
| 10:51.00 | koen | ~koen? |
| 10:51.03 | apt | you are, like, our regular image monkey |
| 10:51.08 | koen | :) |
| 10:51.24 | koen | ~factinfo koen |
| 10:51.24 | apt | koen -- created by Rroet64 <~rroet@coffeemachine.kalf.org> at Fri Dec 24 19:12:00 2004 (794 days); it has been requested 20 times, last by koen, 21s ago. |
| 10:51.36 | koen | ~factinfo openmoko |
| 10:51.36 | apt | openmoko -- last modified at Tue Nov 14 12:39:50 2006 by mickeyl!n=nmickeyl@linuxtogo.org; it has been requested 5 times, last by thedaniel_ at Wed Jan 24 18:49:09 2007. |
| 10:51.40 | *** join/#openmoko ysg (n=ysg@81.214.133.115) |
| 10:55.33 | ysg | can i run openmoko in windows using an emulator? |
| 10:57.00 | mjr | yeah sure |
| 10:57.23 | mjr | first of all, you can run linux in a number of VMs or coLinux |
| 10:57.54 | mjr | and that right there along with an X server and certain applications such as Xoo will give you mostly what you need |
| 10:57.59 | aloril | ooh, emulator question that is not in faq ;-) |
| 10:58.12 | mjr | aloril, indeed, it was very refreshing :) |
| 10:59.01 | mjr | ysg, if you want to emulate the ARM processor (though not perfectly the one in Neo at this point), you can use qemu to boot |
| 10:59.09 | mjr | pun not intended |
| 10:59.41 | ysg | hmm, but how can i build openmoko on the emulator? |
| 10:59.41 | aloril | ysg: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (this autotrigger for new nick and 2 question marks during 15min done only once) |
| 10:59.45 | ysg | ok reading it |
| 11:00.29 | ysg | hmm let me try jeff's image then |
| 11:00.31 | ysg | thanks |
| 11:00.45 | aloril | cool, autotrigger worked perfectly |
| 11:01.32 | mjr | hmm, the faq doesn't from a quick peek seem to mention that you can compile and run the openmoko software on an x86 without any particular emulation, so I'll mention that as well here |
| 11:01.51 | mjr | well, on Linux/x86 anyway |
| 11:02.28 | mjr | this was implicit in my first three lines, but let's make it explicit |
| 11:04.43 | aloril | "Currently it can run on any Linux distribution, and plans are in place to allow it to work under Windows." from http://www.openembedded.org/ |
| 11:06.00 | aloril | umm.. running openmoko apps directly under windows using cygwin might be easier that trying to run whole distro under windows directly ;-) |
| 11:06.31 | aloril | gtk2+ seems to have windows port, etc.. anyway I guess going vmware, etc.. route is easier |
| 11:06.52 | *** join/#openmoko _MacNorth (n=daijobu@c-75-71-250-33.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 11:07.19 | mjr | yeah, probably easier since that'll get you on a system most people will be using |
| 11:07.49 | *** join/#openmoko friedel (n=fwolff@dsl-242-245-18.telkomadsl.co.za) |
| 11:07.50 | mjr | since I mentioned qemu anyway, that can also be used as a VM to run a Linux distro inside Windows, though less efficiently than VMware |
| 11:08.27 | *** part/#openmoko friedel (n=fwolff@dsl-242-245-18.telkomadsl.co.za) |
| 11:09.08 | buz | looks like updating and resetting all settings fixed my p900 |
| 11:09.14 | buz | so i can wait some longer ;) |
| 11:09.47 | aloril | mjr: for v2 I suspect there might be even some NDAs in place that prevent telling some items |
| 11:10.00 | mjr | aloril, quite possibly |
| 11:10.05 | aloril | (guess, CPU might be so new that its not yet really announced (except by arm for core)) |
| 11:10.10 | *** join/#openmoko empty_mind (n=test@59.176.103.149) |
| 11:10.17 | buz | gimme cortex |
| 11:10.23 | buz | SCNR |
| 11:12.52 | buz | realistically, what cpu could be in 1.5? |
| 11:12.56 | buz | s3c2440? |
| 11:13.01 | empty_mind | How do i compile my libs on openmoko. Tried using "how to run openmoko apps on pc" but of no use |
| 11:13.05 | vmaster | isn't 24xx ARM7? |
| 11:13.23 | vmaster | ah, no, that was 44x |
| 11:13.39 | *** join/#openmoko chairuou (n=typn@unaffiliated/chairuou) |
| 11:13.50 | vmaster | buz: TI has an Cortex-A8 OMAP: http://focus.ti.com/general/docs/wtbu/wtbuproductcontent.tsp?templateId=6123&navigationId=12643&contentId=14649 |
| 11:13.53 | aloril | buz: no idea, but v2 should have *much* faster CPU (thus above NDA speculation) |
| 11:13.59 | mjr | buz, I don't know, but I seem to recall Sean saying in Tampere that it'd clock at ~5xx MHz max |
| 11:14.05 | buz | *droool* |
| 11:14.34 | buz | omap3430 would be neat |
| 11:14.44 | buz | but that's gonna cost some serious money |
| 11:15.24 | aloril | mjr: that is for P1.5 (as reply to "buz: realistically, what cpu could be in 1.5?") |
| 11:15.55 | buz | mhh imx31 clocks at 533 |
| 11:16.06 | buz | bulverde and xscale at 520 |
| 11:16.18 | vmaster | definitely some ARM11 - don't think ARM9 scales up that high |
| 11:16.24 | mjr | aloril, yeah |
| 11:16.34 | buz | and likely graphics accelerator |
| 11:16.41 | buz | we might still get those transparent guis fpr p2 lol |
| 11:16.43 | koen | don't use intel (Marvell) chips, those are powerhungry, slow and expensive compared to the alternatives |
| 11:17.02 | vmaster | and you have to offer your soul to marvell to get a look at a datasheet ;) |
| 11:17.02 | buz | yeah use imx31 |
| 11:17.21 | buz | actually, s3c2440 can go to 533 too |
| 11:17.32 | buz | ARM920T |
| 11:17.41 | vmaster | oh, nice |
| 11:17.55 | buz | but that one is still on 130nm |
| 11:18.02 | buz | a 65nm omap would be sweet |
| 11:18.03 | aloril | buz: yeah, my guess is yet to be announced i.MX33 using Cortex-A8 |
| 11:18.05 | *** join/#openmoko v3rmap (n=puser@unaffiliated/v3rmap) |
| 11:18.16 | buz | aloril: for 2.0 or 1.5 |
| 11:18.57 | aloril | buz: definitely for v2 (next year) |
| 11:19.06 | buz | yeah |
| 11:19.10 | aloril | ie.. what they plan to just announce ;-) |
| 11:20.29 | buz | in worst case i must buy one in sept and one in march 08 lol |
| 11:20.36 | aloril | buz: I suspect also it will be 2x or 3x in price too |
| 11:20.43 | v3rmap | Hi guys who's the manufacturer of the phone OpenMoko will run on? |
| 11:20.48 | vmaster | FIC |
| 11:20.49 | buz | i doubt you can sell very many 900$ phones |
| 11:20.56 | buz | on an as yet unproven platform |
| 11:21.04 | vmaster | well, of the "first" phone OpenMoko will run on |
| 11:21.17 | vmaster | OpenMoko is also said to be running on a Motorola phone |
| 11:21.45 | aloril | buz: maybe there will be high more normal model, well.. this is speculation of course |
| 11:22.01 | buz | i expect more than one device |
| 11:22.09 | buz | one platform, different formfactors |
| 11:22.10 | aloril | umm.. I meant there probably will be high end model and more normal level model |
| 11:22.29 | buz | yeah |
| 11:22.43 | aloril | so would not surprised if most packed model was $900 ;-) |
| 11:23.01 | buz | it better come with xga out then |
| 11:23.13 | buz | if it costs more than a laptop it must have features like one ;) |
| 11:23.55 | aloril | hehe |
| 11:24.17 | aloril | smaller size is usually expensive though |
| 11:24.43 | buz | you can get x86 based umpc for that price |
| 11:25.28 | buz | do omap come with baseband integrated? |
| 11:25.32 | buz | or just some of them |
| 11:25.53 | buz | doesnt seem to me like omap2 and 3 have baseband on chip |
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| 11:33.48 | aloril | buz: aren't those still significantly bigger than Neo1973? (while being significantly smaller than laptop) |
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| 11:51.33 | spo0nman | hmm gtk-2.0 or gtk-2.4 is fine too? |
| 11:53.15 | spo0nman | v3rmap: the doc |
| 11:53.20 | spo0nman | damn! |
| 11:53.28 | spo0nman | v3rmap: the doc's mention gtk-2.0 |
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| 11:56.13 | v3rmap | spo0nman, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMokoFramework shows gtk+-2.6 |
| 11:56.58 | XorA | 2.6.10 is I beleive the version used, as I always confuse it with 2.10.6 the version I use |
| 11:57.53 | v3rmap | It's been a while since I coded using gtk, but I recall that if your app uses 2.0, it will run on all systems with gtk+ with the major version - "2" |
| 11:58.06 | koen | sort of |
| 11:58.14 | koen | 2.10 had a small ABI break |
| 11:58.18 | v3rmap | ok |
| 11:58.40 | XorA | on arm every 2.XX to 2.XX+2 has an ABI break :-( |
| 11:59.03 | koen | don't forget about glib..... |
| 11:59.14 | spo0nman | kubuntu sucks. |
| 11:59.24 | XorA | s/k// |
| 11:59.32 | XorA | apt: no I didnt |
| 11:59.41 | koen | apt: you suck |
| 11:59.43 | apt | no, *you* suck! |
| 11:59.51 | XorA | ~fish apt |
| 11:59.52 | apt | ACTION slaps apt around with a large trout |
| 11:59.59 | spo0nman | heh |
| 12:00.15 | v3rmap | apt, you're cool. |
| 12:00.16 | apt | Of course I am! |
| 12:00.21 | v3rmap | oops |
| 12:00.26 | aloril | counter |
| 12:00.26 | aloril | P0: a week, a day 23:59:34 (-0.000 - 9.000 days); P1: 23.000 - 33.000; P2: 186.000 - 216.000 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (413) |
| 12:00.28 | v3rmap | not the expected response. |
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| 12:04.18 | *** join/#openmoko spikebik3 (n=bill@iris.t-s.net) |
| 12:05.25 | aloril | interesting, openmoko search on news.google brings up N800 article (from several sources): http://news.google.com/news?q=openmoko&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tab=wn&scoring=d |
| 12:05.54 | koen | I just get iphone stuff |
| 12:06.04 | koen | since google localizes the search |
| 12:06.33 | *** join/#openmoko mickey|zzZZzz (n=mickeyl@linuxtogo.org) |
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| 12:08.55 | aloril | hi mickeyl |
| 12:09.01 | mickeyl | cheers |
| 12:09.19 | koen | hey dr. mickeyl |
| 12:09.35 | mickeyl | :) |
| 12:09.43 | alphaone | Got home safe? |
| 12:10.12 | mickeyl | yes, thanks. you too? unfortunately zecke infected me with his throat thingy |
| 12:10.20 | mickeyl | so I'm feeling a bit weak atm. |
| 12:10.26 | alphaone | oh |
| 12:11.30 | koen | mickeyl: that makes 3 in 3 |
| 12:11.35 | alphaone | Yeah, the weather was a nuisance but we got home quite fast |
| 12:11.41 | koen | seems you get sick after each fosdem |
| 12:13.22 | *** join/#openmoko Marex-debian (n=Marex@85.132.236.161) |
| 12:14.17 | mickeyl | koen: no kidding. it's always I'm a bit weak when FOSDEM starts, then drinking beer doesn't really helps either ;) |
| 12:14.28 | *** join/#openmoko zween (n=zween@80-47-43-169.lond-hex.dynamic.dial.as9105.com) |
| 12:15.04 | Elrond | Hi mickeyl! |
| 12:15.11 | mickeyl | hi Elrond |
| 12:15.42 | *** join/#openmoko Marex (n=Marex@85.132.236.161) |
| 12:16.06 | *** join/#openmoko ecraven (i=nex@eutyche.swe.uni-linz.ac.at) |
| 12:16.54 | Elrond | mickeyl - http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Battery notes some "internal protection circuitry". Do you know, if hthe Nokia ones have that too? |
| 12:17.03 | CM | mickeyl: fyi, dneary was asking for you earlier :) |
| 12:17.06 | SpeedEvil | yes |
| 12:17.32 | SpeedEvil | they have IIRC a thermal fuse inside the battery |
| 12:17.44 | SpeedEvil | I opened one once. |
| 12:18.06 | SpeedEvil | The nokia that is |
| 12:19.00 | Elrond | So buying a new nokia one from a trusted dealer wont make the neo more dangerous? |
| 12:19.07 | dneary | Thanks CM |
| 12:19.19 | mickeyl | hi dneary. got back safe? |
| 12:19.25 | dneary | mickeyl: We met at FOSDEM - I said I'd follow up about FOSTEL |
| 12:19.29 | dneary | Ah - yeah :) |
| 12:19.36 | dneary | Cool - you know who I am |
| 12:19.45 | mickeyl | sure :) |
| 12:19.56 | mickeyl | i don't remember a lot, but i remember you |
| 12:20.08 | dneary | I *think* that's a good thing |
| 12:20.16 | buz | could be both ;) |
| 12:20.17 | mickeyl | hehe |
| 12:20.21 | SpeedEvil | Elrond: shouldn't. |
| 12:20.29 | dneary | Anyway, I'll be back in a while |
| 12:20.31 | Stephmw | mickeyl: did you get to see your photo btw? |
| 12:21.00 | mickeyl | Stephmw: hehe, i did, yes. I'm looking a bit odd, but I guess that's me |
| 12:21.23 | Stephmw | mickeyl: everyone looks a bit odd at FOSDEM, I think that's part of the fun :) |
| 12:21.29 | mickeyl | heh, right |
| 12:21.49 | *** join/#openmoko silwol (n=silwol@194.152.122.177) |
| 12:22.04 | mickeyl | dneary: so, Sean looks like he wants to make FOSTEL. I'm trying to rearrange schedule to join him, but can't promise yet |
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| 12:31.52 | SpeedEvil | I hope the faster CPU doesn't use more power at idle. Faster CPU, bigger battery, larger screen, ... may not be a win. |
| 12:34.00 | *** join/#openmoko mzb (n=ubernut@ppp108-88.static.internode.on.net) |
| 12:34.02 | v3rmap | I think those mobile CPUs slow down if the load is less. |
| 12:34.27 | koen | no, you can configure them to do dyntick or cpufreq scaling |
| 12:34.34 | koen | they don't do that by default |
| 12:35.07 | koen | (or rather, you can tell the kernel to do that) |
| 12:35.31 | *** join/#openmoko vetetix (n=vetetix@138.27-218-195.adsl.internet.lu) |
| 12:35.38 | SpeedEvil | CPU scaling doesn't really help if the electrical minimum draw is bigger. |
| 12:35.40 | v3rmap | koen, ok, so does the OpenMoko kernel have this feature? |
| 12:36.09 | koen | it has the feature (any linux kernel has), dunno if it's enabled |
| 12:37.18 | mickeyl | not yet. IIRC fluffs is currently working out S3C24xx cpufreq support |
| 12:37.30 | *** join/#openmoko bkuhn (n=bkuhn@atheist.ebb.org) |
| 12:37.38 | SpeedEvil | For example, the one in the neo uses around half the power at idle, unless you do CPU specific stuff. The lowest power mode is still 10% of the maximum. |
| 12:37.40 | *** part/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@24.crcr10.xdsl.nauticom.net) |
| 12:38.06 | SpeedEvil | Which translates to a couple of days, you can't throttle back to a couple of megahert and run for a week. |
| 12:40.23 | *** join/#openmoko zecke (n=ich@91.64.160.193) |
| 12:41.26 | CM | Does anyone have an estimate how long the Neo will run on the standard battery? |
| 12:41.43 | SpeedEvil | there are my estimates on the wiki. |
| 12:41.50 | SpeedEvil | Worst case, around 3 hours |
| 12:41.58 | SpeedEvil | this is playing a movie for example. |
| 12:42.11 | SpeedEvil | 2 days, keeping the CPU in slow mode all the time, with the screen off. |
| 12:42.25 | CM | SpeedEvil: Ok. Looking at the battery page now, but didn't see that. On the :Talk page? |
| 12:42.31 | SpeedEvil | Maybe 40 hours playing MP3, with the CPU going between active and slow mode. |
| 12:42.41 | SpeedEvil | lnink off FAQ |
| 12:42.46 | CM | ok |
| 12:42.52 | SpeedEvil | I forget the exact name |
| 12:44.34 | CM | np, I'll look around |
| 12:51.44 | *** join/#openmoko empty_mind (n=test@59.180.42.239) |
| 12:51.46 | CM | SpeedEvil: I shortened the title a bit, hope that's ok. |
| 12:51.52 | SpeedEvil | Fine |
| 12:52.03 | CM | SpeedEvil: Nice text, thanks :) |
| 12:52.25 | SpeedEvil | They are guessword, taking the datasheet CPU figures, and adding a fudge factor for RAM. |
| 12:53.57 | aevin | what stresses the CPU the most: decoding MP3 or Ogg vorbis? |
| 12:54.38 | SpeedEvil | Dunno. |
| 12:54.42 | xkr47 | depends on bitrate I guess |
| 12:54.53 | clem-vangelis | hi all |
| 12:54.59 | SpeedEvil | And much more, the decoder. |
| 12:55.30 | hrw | SpeedEvil: both formats has integer decoders |
| 12:55.30 | xkr47 | sure |
| 12:55.31 | SpeedEvil | As a completely unrelated point, a single purpose OGG decoder used slightly more power than a MP3 chip. |
| 12:56.09 | clem-vangelis | i was searching for media about Neo1973 running OpenMoko but i didn't found a lot of things... |
| 12:56.18 | SpeedEvil | There is very little. |
| 12:56.27 | SpeedEvil | Only several developers have hardware at the moment. |
| 12:56.33 | SpeedEvil | Expect more in march. |
| 12:56.39 | clem-vangelis | ok thanks :) |
| 12:56.45 | SpeedEvil | When some 50 phones go out to preselected developers. |
| 12:56.47 | clem-vangelis | i'll be waiting |
| 12:57.01 | SpeedEvil | And you can even buy your own in late march :) |
| 12:57.12 | clem-vangelis | this project seems very good |
| 12:57.35 | clem-vangelis | it will work with any GSM operators ? |
| 12:57.39 | SpeedEvil | yes. |
| 12:57.59 | SpeedEvil | Unless they do wierd stuff like only letting you use their own phones. |
| 12:58.08 | clem-vangelis | yes... |
| 12:59.11 | aloril | faq |
| 12:59.11 | aloril | See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ |
| 12:59.12 | clem-vangelis | thanks |
| 12:59.26 | clem-vangelis | hum late march is for developers... |
| 12:59.27 | Lo-Down | you were a little slow on that aloril |
| 12:59.32 | Lo-Down | ::grin:: |
| 13:00.10 | aloril | Lo-Down: it wasn't autotrigger (no 2 '?') ;-) |
| 13:00.21 | Lo-Down | haha |
| 13:00.47 | aloril | questions without '?' ;-) |
| 13:01.39 | Lo-Down | aloril, you been on all night? |
| 13:02.00 | aloril | night? its day here ;-) |
| 13:02.07 | SpeedEvil | It's gotta be tiring hearing the beep on 'FAQ', and waking up to press the button. |
| 13:02.24 | Lo-Down | aloril: so american centric of me |
| 13:02.58 | Lo-Down | SpeedEvil: its a tough job, but someone has to do it |
| 13:04.09 | aloril | SpeedEvil: beep on f*a*q? I guess you have this keyword trigger that? |
| 13:06.48 | CM | aevin: I can't seem to find any recent comparisons of ogg and mp3 playback cpu usage |
| 13:08.08 | CM | But in the old ones (2000-2001) ogg is 10-15 times higher, an order of magnitude worse. I assume it's more optimized now though |
| 13:08.32 | SpeedEvil | It's going to depend heavily on the CPU and player. I suppose similar ARM platforms would be a reasonable benchmark. |
| 13:09.42 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (i=foobar@dslb-084-057-189-028.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 13:09.42 | CM | Yes, this paper http://ietfec.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/E88-A/8/2124 (Design of Ogg Vorbis Decoder System for Embedded Platform) is probably interesting |
| 13:09.55 | CM | As a result of hardware implementation, 73% improvement in CPU load is achieved by specific hardware modules for IMDCT and residue decoding process. |
| 13:10.05 | SpeedEvil | Well, that's useless. |
| 13:10.18 | SpeedEvil | We don't care about that, because there isn't one. |
| 13:10.21 | SpeedEvil | :( |
| 13:10.27 | CM | Hmm.. |
| 13:10.28 | SpeedEvil | OMG! FPGA! |
| 13:10.30 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 13:10.35 | CM | Hehe |
| 13:10.49 | *** join/#openmoko LuitvD (n=luitvd@beigetower/luitvd) |
| 13:10.55 | LuitvD | hello |
| 13:11.01 | SpeedEvil | Welcome! |
| 13:11.16 | LuitvD | thank you :) |
| 13:11.37 | SpeedEvil | I wish I had an arm box with no FPU to play with. for OGG/mp3 |
| 13:12.03 | LuitvD | FPU? |
| 13:12.22 | SpeedEvil | The neo peocessor has no floating point in hardware. |
| 13:12.23 | *** join/#openmoko cheesy (n=cheesy@mnch-4db0d6c8.pool.einsundeins.de) |
| 13:12.36 | SpeedEvil | All mine do. |
| 13:12.38 | LuitvD | why? |
| 13:12.42 | *** join/#openmoko vlo (n=valentin@lsa1pc7.epfl.ch) |
| 13:12.51 | SpeedEvil | Because they forgot to add it. |
| 13:12.55 | SpeedEvil | Diddn't they feel stupid :) |
| 13:12.59 | LuitvD | the ARM920T doesn't have floating point units? |
| 13:13.10 | SpeedEvil | Seriously, floating point is a relatively large chip area. |
| 13:13.28 | LuitvD | hmmz... |
| 13:13.33 | SpeedEvil | AIUI, no. I may be utterly wrong. |
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| 13:14.12 | LuitvD | so you're trying to build some library for FPU-less processors to use OGG/MP3? |
| 13:14.32 | SpeedEvil | No - I'm trying to do basic benchmarks for the neo. |
| 13:14.36 | *** join/#openmoko msroest (n=msroest@coloc1.beyond.ca) |
| 13:14.45 | SpeedEvil | And trying different approaches perhaps. |
| 13:16.25 | *** join/#openmoko MoRpHeUz (n=morphbr@200.184.118.132) |
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| 13:24.22 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03werner * r1148 10/trunk/src/host/dfu-util/src/sam7dfu.c: |
| 13:24.22 | CIA-7 | openmoko: sam7dfu.c (sam7dfu_do_upload): initialize total_bytes to zero |
| 13:24.23 | CIA-7 | openmoko: sam7dfu.c (sam7dfu_do_upload): set "ret" to total_bytes on short write |
| 13:26.17 | aevin | CM: okay. thanks for trying to find out :-) |
| 13:33.19 | dneary | mickeyl: That's great - if you manage to fit it in, let me know |
| 13:34.50 | aloril | theoretical 200wpm: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shorthand |
| 13:35.18 | SpeedEvil | Not on a 40*50mm screen |
| 13:36.04 | SpeedEvil | There is a lot of possibility for someone that cracks it though. |
| 13:36.26 | SpeedEvil | I suspect the eventual answer for fast text input is going to be something that takes a fair bit of learning. |
| 13:36.49 | aloril | yes, also shorthand doesn't take timing information into account |
| 13:37.16 | aloril | timing information + geometry fully taken advantage -> something pretty fast even on small screen |
| 13:40.16 | aloril | nice 280 wpm: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregg_Shorthand |
| 13:41.31 | *** join/#openmoko loufoque (n=loufoque@smj33-1-82-233-64-48.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 13:43.28 | SpeedEvil | Wow - and looking at the athletics page, I find I can run 100m in 9.77 seconds! :) |
| 13:43.40 | aloril | hehe |
| 13:43.56 | SpeedEvil | Graphs of average users per time for various systems would be very nice. |
| 13:45.55 | aloril | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WPM |
| 13:46.24 | *** join/#openmoko Demitar (n=demitar@c-212-031-191-031.cust.broadway.se) |
| 13:46.41 | aloril | according to that peak speed record is 212wpm using keyboard, so .. shorthand seems to be faster in theory |
| 13:48.08 | aloril | 280/3.5=80 for average user (if same ratio with top temporary speed and average user) |
| 13:48.53 | aloril | anyway, as I said, no timing information used, so I strongly suspect its possible to input quite fast on even a small touch screen |
| 13:49.01 | SpeedEvil | Can't seem to find any free papers or studies on it. |
| 13:49.05 | *** join/#openmoko darmou (n=darmou@59.167.149.37) |
| 13:49.05 | SpeedEvil | Lots of pay for ones. |
| 13:49.57 | aloril | step 0: asking question: can you achieve nice speed on small touch screen by using all information? |
| 13:50.10 | aloril | done. |
| 13:50.21 | CM | I'd still like to try hexinput :) |
| 13:50.40 | *** join/#openmoko darmou (n=darmou@59.167.149.37) |
| 13:50.47 | aloril | ;-) (anyway, I think asking question is important first step in doing something) |
| 13:51.19 | CM | Heh, that's not in the wiki yet!?! |
| 13:52.13 | aloril | http://www.tengo.net/ (though patented) claims nice speeds also and has some nice reviews |
| 13:53.13 | *** join/#openmoko l4rs (n=laprican@hsiproxy.astra-net.com) |
| 13:53.39 | aloril | (dunno if this is useful or if you have seen it already) SpeedEvil: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregg_Shorthand has links, especially http://gregg.angelfishy.net/ |
| 13:53.42 | SpeedEvil | 16 buttons, 2 buttons per char. |
| 13:53.46 | koen | re ogg vorbis: google for 'tremor' and 'ivorbis' |
| 13:53.46 | SpeedEvil | yeah. |
| 13:54.11 | *** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru) |
| 13:55.10 | ynezz | does anybody knows about some camera with bluetooth interface? |
| 13:57.13 | SpeedEvil | I know most DSLR ones can. |
| 13:57.16 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 13:57.21 | *** join/#openmoko SirCrow (n=sircrow@sd511685b.adsl.wanadoo.nl) |
| 13:57.32 | SpeedEvil | I haven't really seen a tiny 1MP camera or so. |
| 13:57.46 | ynezz | yes, I mean 1MP or so :) |
| 13:58.08 | CM | Who can update the wiki configuration settings? Look at this: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Image:Stylus_06_input_keypad.png |
| 13:58.37 | ynezz | SpeedEvil: do you know what kind of BT protocol DSLR one use for video/photo transfer? |
| 13:59.11 | CM | I'm guessing the default image preview is set to be 800x600, resulting in all 640x480 screenshots being reduced to 600x450 looking horrible. |
| 13:59.11 | SpeedEvil | I'm unsure, I've never been able to afford them. |
| 13:59.15 | SpeedEvil | So I diddn't look. |
| 13:59.41 | ynezz | ok |
| 13:59.52 | SpeedEvil | Isn't the camera one of the bluetooth standards? |
| 13:59.56 | CM | s/640x480/480x640/ |
| 14:00.26 | ynezz | i know there are some cameras which transmit over 2.4Ghz, but don't know if it's BT |
| 14:01.03 | ynezz | dunno much about BT proto/standards |
| 14:01.10 | aloril | actually shorthand and other writing mostly do preserve timing information by moving hand across paper ;-) |
| 14:01.41 | SpeedEvil | Oops - I was thinking of SDIO. |
| 14:03.01 | etf|work | CM it seems to be a problem with resizing PNG's, the thumbnail on http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Battery also looks bad |
| 14:03.26 | *** join/#openmoko Rac0r_ (n=Rac0r@p5081E7A4.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 14:03.34 | *** join/#openmoko Ryushin (i=proxy@windwalker.openinnovations.com) |
| 14:03.48 | SpeedEvil | PNGs are also bad bandwidth wise, compared to jpeg. |
| 14:03.53 | SpeedEvil | At least for photos. |
| 14:05.26 | SpeedEvil | 85% qual jpeg is around half the size of png. |
| 14:05.26 | CM | etf|work: Yes, definitely. Still think all 480x640 screenshots should be shown full size when clicked |
| 14:05.26 | etf|work | indeed |
| 14:05.27 | CM | The wiki is pretty fast now though |
| 14:05.27 | etf|work | yes I don't know mediawiki that well but I agree theres probably a setting somewhere |
| 14:05.28 | koen | SpeedEvil: jpg shouldn't be used for screenshots |
| 14:05.28 | SpeedEvil | Well, yes. Not when it gets /.'d. |
| 14:05.28 | SpeedEvil | koen: no, I meant for photos only. |
| 14:05.28 | koen | SpeedEvil: since too many people don't know how to prevent jpeg artifacts :( |
| 14:05.28 | SpeedEvil | using it for screenshots is (usually) bad. |
| 14:05.53 | koen | anything that has high-contrast change-overs |
| 14:05.56 | SpeedEvil | Two pics side by side, looking at zoom for artifacts in HF areas, and smooth contrast changes. |
| 14:06.16 | SpeedEvil | wind up quality till they go away. |
| 14:07.20 | CM | etf|work: Had the same issue on muine-player.org, then it was $wgImageLimits in the configuration settings |
| 14:07.25 | XorA | or s/jpg/png and do sensible thing |
| 14:07.52 | etf|work | CM ok, guess we need to find someone who can change that |
| 14:08.11 | CM | It's not essential, but the wiki would definitely look nicer :) |
| 14:08.13 | SpeedEvil | I'm not meaning for screenshots, just photos of the 'real world'. |
| 14:08.31 | SpeedEvil | If it's invisible under zoom and half the size... |
| 14:09.05 | *** join/#openmoko bh1 (n=bh1@zux006-058-029.adsl.green.ch) |
| 14:12.12 | LuitvD | aloril: that tengo thing looks cool :) |
| 14:12.14 | *** join/#openmoko prpplague (n=dave@mail.americanmicrosystems.com) |
| 14:15.39 | LuitvD | aloril: isn't there a way to create a similar input type that doesn't violate their patent? |
| 14:17.56 | jeddy3 | how about some plugin system where you could easily script a behaviour for input and drop it on top |
| 14:18.13 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03thomas * r1149 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/libmokoui/moko-alignment.c: |
| 14:18.13 | CIA-7 | openmoko: * Prevent MokoAlignment from attempting to allocate negative width or height to |
| 14:18.13 | CIA-7 | openmoko: child widgets |
| 14:19.39 | jeddy3 | not vilolating any patents, but enable the users to use a behaviour they are comfortable or familiar with |
| 14:20.10 | SpeedEvil | End users will be violating the patent in that case - there is no exception for personal use. |
| 14:20.48 | SpeedEvil | Thought hte chances of peoplle going after them is small. |
| 14:20.58 | *** part/#openmoko dirakx (n=dirakx@69.79.145.81) |
| 14:24.53 | Stephmw | the devs might get C&Ds though |
| 14:30.06 | jeddy3 | yes, it will still be a issue if someone uses a patent encumbered method. But, A: their own choice, not openmoko/communitys and B: VERY hard to do something about |
| 14:31.09 | aloril | LuitvD[away]: dunno, anyway sounds like software patent and hopefully those go away ;-) |
| 14:31.44 | loufoque | just make a version for the patented world and another for the free world |
| 14:32.34 | aloril | if one of methods is keyboard, another hexinput, etc.. hard to sue for allowing plugins .. |
| 14:33.24 | SpeedEvil | It should really be at a distance from the openmoko/FIC duality though. |
| 14:33.52 | loufoque | FIC is taiwanese, and I doubt patents really apply in taiwan |
| 14:33.53 | SpeedEvil | We _really_ don't want any 'bad' stuff leading to badness like phones getting banned from sales in countries. |
| 14:34.19 | SpeedEvil | However, if P2 gets stopped at the US border... |
| 14:34.59 | SpeedEvil | Ideally, of course, software patents go away, which would help lots. |
| 14:36.56 | loufoque | I just looked at a tengo video |
| 14:37.03 | loufoque | what's so impressive with that thing? |
| 14:37.14 | SpeedEvil | It's not playing for me - for some reason. |
| 14:37.30 | SpeedEvil | '79 wpm' with 'less than a day' |
| 14:39.25 | loufoque | anyway the idea of tengo is rather simple, how could something like that be patented? |
| 14:39.39 | SpeedEvil | Because the patent system is fucked in the US. |
| 14:40.04 | SpeedEvil | To drive down costs, they let almost anything be patented, as it can always be sorted out later inexpensively in court. |
| 14:40.13 | SpeedEvil | It only costs a few hundred million... |
| 14:40.20 | Lo-Down | loufoque: in todays climate you ask the wrong question...how could it not be? :b |
| 14:40.29 | so_solid_moo | if it produces a physical result, it's patentable in the EU also |
| 14:40.32 | aloril | SpeedEvil: yeah, better not include any patented technology now |
| 14:40.43 | SpeedEvil | It's basically T9 with letters isn't it? |
| 14:40.56 | aloril | SpeedEvil: however if plugin system allows user to install their own (or invent their own!) that should now be problem |
| 14:41.16 | SpeedEvil | Yeah - as long as you don't mention on the .us site any ways to infringe. |
| 14:41.29 | mjr | SpeedEvil, incidentall, I rather thought that most patent laws spesifically didn't apply for personal (private) use (however, as soon as you're using your phone to do business...) |
| 14:41.30 | SpeedEvil | And make some token effort to keep .us people out of the .world site. |
| 14:41.41 | CM | Patents for things that are not physical products suck. Parameter patens for instance, such incredible stupidity |
| 14:41.55 | SpeedEvil | mjr: The phrase is typically 'gain' - rather than buisness. |
| 14:42.20 | SpeedEvil | IIRC anything that makes something easier has been held to be 'gain' |
| 14:42.43 | mjr | okay; I'm no intl. patent law expert |
| 14:42.50 | SpeedEvil | Buisness use is just an obvious case, with obvious financial rewards. |
| 14:43.17 | SpeedEvil | Me neither, I looked into it a while back, when I was considering infringing someones patent. |
| 14:44.03 | loufoque | so_solid_moo: it's not really related to the hardware |
| 14:44.43 | so_solid_moo | loufoque: it doesn't have to be |
| 14:45.07 | loufoque | so_solid_moo: I thought only software that were tightly related to hardware were patentable in the EU |
| 14:45.19 | so_solid_moo | loufoque: sadly, no |
| 14:45.32 | so_solid_moo | for example, I can show you a patent on barrel-shifting an array of memory pointers. |
| 14:45.35 | LuitvD | aloril: yeah... but most of the time software (and hardware also) patents are country-based... and you can get around most patents by making your idea a little diffrent |
| 14:45.55 | LuitvD | aloril: nobody can make a completely failsafe patent ;) |
| 14:46.02 | mjr | loufoque, software patenting is against the european patent convention, but EPO grants such patents gladly, as they get money from it. If they're actually valid varies from member state to state |
| 14:46.16 | aloril | can you violate patent by just thinking? |
| 14:46.44 | *** join/#openmoko slomo (n=slomo@ubuntu/member/slomo) |
| 14:47.16 | loufoque | mjr: patents granted by the EPO have no validity in any national european court I know of |
| 14:47.36 | XorA | all PO should be burned to the ground |
| 14:47.52 | mjr | well, also the policies vary within the member countries' own patent offices and courts |
| 14:47.57 | so_solid_moo | loufoque: they are vary rarely thrown out |
| 14:48.01 | so_solid_moo | loufoque: they are assumed to be valid |
| 14:48.10 | LuitvD | aloril: lol, I'd like to patent that :) |
| 14:48.16 | SpeedEvil | What we really need is for all patent granting bodies to - for every patent, have 10 experts in the field think for an hour or so on how to achieve the result that the patent claims, without seing the method. |
| 14:48.24 | LuitvD | aloril: getting royalties on every single dirty thought :) |
| 14:48.34 | SpeedEvil | And seeing if they come up with the same method. |
| 14:48.40 | aloril | write some patented algorithm in English and then execute it in your brain only |
| 14:49.04 | SpeedEvil | If >5 of them do, the person applying pays 100 times the application fee. |
| 14:49.08 | XorA | brains can be patented since USA starting accepting gene patents |
| 14:49.14 | aloril | (or in some programming language and execute that, but English case is more obvious for everybody) |
| 14:49.37 | loufoque | blue eyes can be patented? |
| 14:49.43 | loufoque | so if you're born with blue eyes you've got to pay royalties? |
| 14:51.29 | SpeedEvil | Or pluck them out. |
| 14:52.26 | CM | XorA: Those gene patents are crazy.. If you have a patented disease and test yourself for it, you don't own the tissue they used to do the testing any more. It belongs to the owner of the patent |
| 14:52.46 | LuitvD | http://www.redhat.com/v/magazine/ogg/truthhappens.ogg :) |
| 14:52.50 | CM | Hepatitis C is also patented.. |
| 14:54.05 | mjr | also, doctors testing Ashkenazi jews for a disease (I forget which) have to pay royalties since somebody noticed that said group of Jews have it more often |
| 14:54.07 | aloril | or implement English language (subset of course), also keep execution state (all memory) in pure English and then implement FPGA to run it |
| 14:54.18 | mjr | testing somebody else, you don't infringe the patent |
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| 14:54.28 | aloril | if you examine memory any time, it would contain just English text (for data and code) |
| 14:55.21 | mjr | (in the US) |
| 14:55.28 | denis^da | LuitvD, did you got reply ? |
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| 14:55.31 | loufoque | it is shameful to have to pay royalties to heal people |
| 14:55.43 | aloril | (or s/FPGA/simple C program/) |
| 14:55.55 | LuitvD | denis^da: not yet |
| 14:56.01 | aloril | of course can implement it itself for demonstration, but eventually something is needed to run programs |
| 14:56.10 | denis^da | kk |
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| 14:56.39 | CM | mjr: The extra fees for testing for breast cancer is around $2000, because it's patented |
| 14:56.41 | *** join/#openmoko rd_ (n=redragon@segfault.net) |
| 14:57.02 | loufoque | if we could run program in english that would mean we have AI that is smarter than ourselves |
| 14:58.31 | LuitvD | wow, this one really sounds like the story of sean at fosdem: http://www.redhat.com/f/ogg/choice.ogg |
| 14:58.41 | Stephmw | loufoque: depending on where in the world you are, that may not be so difficult |
| 14:58.41 | LuitvD | the main thought of that film |
| 14:59.42 | aloril | loufoque: I meant subset of English ;-) |
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| 15:03.05 | aloril | loufoque: probably something that resembles Python |
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| 15:23.21 | LuitvD | buz: you there? |
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| 15:24.24 | LuitvD | buz: you said the e2862 would hit the market at about 250 US$? that one has GPS too :) so the only difference with the e2881 is that it has qwerty and a higher resolution |
| 15:25.02 | LuitvD | buz: I might even concider buying that e2862... it looks nice... KRZR like :) |
| 15:26.55 | loufoque | LuitvD: what are those? |
| 15:27.20 | LuitvD | loufoque: some chinese phones, made by the company that launched the first linux smartphone ever |
| 15:27.28 | LuitvD | loufoque: www.e28.com |
| 15:27.31 | jebba | LuitvD, but it isn't open at all, correct? |
| 15:27.41 | LuitvD | jebba: not sure yet |
| 15:27.54 | LuitvD | jebba: gonna find out as soon as those people mail me back.... |
| 15:27.58 | loufoque | it's in a weird language |
| 15:28.07 | LuitvD | lol |
| 15:28.11 | LuitvD | loufoque: http://www.e28.com/e28mobile/mobile_e2881.htm |
| 15:28.15 | LuitvD | that's the nicest device :) |
| 15:28.25 | LuitvD | loufoque: http://www.e28.com/e28mobile/mobile_e2862.htm |
| 15:28.37 | LuitvD | and that's a nice one too :) |
| 15:28.50 | LuitvD | though that first one has some openmoko potential |
| 15:29.05 | LuitvD | especially if it's nicely priced... which it most likely is |
| 15:29.20 | LuitvD | (that second one is most likely 250$ |
| 15:29.42 | loufoque | it has wifi. |
| 15:30.10 | LuitvD | loufoque: indeed it does |
| 15:30.35 | LuitvD | loufoque: GSM/GPRS, BT, WiFi, GPS, qwerty |
| 15:30.47 | loufoque | they also have cameras |
| 15:31.06 | LuitvD | loufoque: the only downside compared to the Neo1973 is half the SDRAM and a quarter of the resolution |
| 15:31.20 | LuitvD | loufoque: forgot that one :) 2Mpix cam |
| 15:31.30 | LuitvD | I just love it... |
| 15:31.33 | LuitvD | that device |
| 15:31.39 | loufoque | those are not the only downsides. |
| 15:31.49 | LuitvD | It'd be magnificent if it'd run openmoko |
| 15:32.00 | LuitvD | loufoque: and that it's not (yet) running openmoko |
| 15:32.17 | LuitvD | loufoque: those downsides are the only I care about |
| 15:32.17 | rd_ | LuitvD, 250$ is a so good price |
| 15:32.21 | rd_ | but i doubt that :) |
| 15:32.22 | LuitvD | rd_: yeah... |
| 15:32.39 | LuitvD | rd_: for that smaller device (QCIF+, smaller cam, no querty) |
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| 15:33.06 | LuitvD | rd_: the e2881 will most likely sell around 300$ |
| 15:33.09 | loufoque | shouldn't the neo 1973 be able to playback video at 25 fps, at least for 320x240? |
| 15:33.28 | jebba | well, if you haven't heard from them, it seems it's not "open"... like if it was open you wouldn't /have/ to hear from them, you'd just hit svn or something........ |
| 15:33.28 | LuitvD | loufoque: that's yet to be tested... |
| 15:33.30 | doublefacer007 | hello |
| 15:33.42 | rd_ | 300$ is still cheap |
| 15:33.58 | LuitvD | rd_: for what it does, yes, it's cheap |
| 15:34.30 | rd_ | if it's open, you would still able to hack its features, or somehow getting oe/openmoko running on it |
| 15:34.44 | aloril | hi doublefacer007 |
| 15:34.51 | doublefacer007 | hi aloril |
| 15:34.56 | rd_ | LuitvD, i like the wifi :) |
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| 15:35.20 | LuitvD | rd_: such a phone for 230 euro's is just great :) |
| 15:35.56 | rd_ | LuitvD, yeah, very cheap |
| 15:35.57 | loufoque | $250 is not 230 euros |
| 15:36.01 | LuitvD | rd_: the thing I like about that e2862 is the secondary display :P fun thing to play with |
| 15:36.11 | doublefacer007 | how mach of the neo 1973? |
| 15:36.14 | LuitvD | loufoque: I was talking about the more expensive one |
| 15:36.20 | loufoque | more like 190 euros |
| 15:36.23 | LuitvD | doublefacer007: what? |
| 15:36.30 | LuitvD | loufoque: yeah, 190 it is |
| 15:36.36 | rd_ | LuitvD, how did u know the price? |
| 15:36.42 | LuitvD | loufoque: but I'd still go for that more expensive one |
| 15:36.43 | loufoque | but you have to add taxes and shipping |
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| 15:36.53 | LuitvD | rd_: the price of e2862 is mentioned on some website |
| 15:36.57 | PBeck | hi |
| 15:37.03 | DesktopMa | shipping US to europe for a phone size package is miniscule |
| 15:37.05 | DesktopMa | 20$ maybe |
| 15:37.14 | doublefacer007 | oh |
| 15:37.27 | LuitvD | DesktopMa: US to europe... the e28 devices are chinese ;) |
| 15:38.00 | DesktopMa | well, I'm assuming they're shipping from US offices |
| 15:38.02 | DesktopMa | but perhaps not |
| 15:38.03 | aloril | impatient ;-) |
| 15:38.13 | DesktopMa | asia->europe costs the same if not cheaper than US->europe |
| 15:38.16 | LuitvD | DesktopMa: They have one US office... |
| 15:38.31 | LuitvD | DesktopMa: yeah, Asia > europe is cheap too |
| 15:38.37 | LuitvD | Asia > anywhere is cheap :) |
| 15:38.43 | DesktopMa | I've shipped boxes that could contain I guess 4 phone boxes fro 20$ |
| 15:38.46 | DesktopMa | yep := |
| 15:38.47 | loufoque | btw, can FIC ship from europe? |
| 15:38.47 | DesktopMa | :) |
| 15:38.50 | LuitvD | even Canada > europe is more expensive then that :) |
| 15:38.57 | LuitvD | loufoque: from or to? |
| 15:39.02 | loufoque | from and to |
| 15:39.14 | LuitvD | loufoque: lol, it ships from taiwan I guess... |
| 15:39.17 | loufoque | for minimal costs for us europeans |
| 15:39.26 | DesktopMa | they should write "production sample: value 20$" on the boxes |
| 15:39.28 | DesktopMa | no taxes ftw |
| 15:39.33 | LuitvD | loufoque: but maybe someone can set up some distribution for shared buying or something... |
| 15:39.48 | LuitvD | DesktopMa: or "gift" |
| 15:39.50 | LuitvD | :) |
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| 15:39.53 | DesktopMa | :) |
| 15:40.03 | DesktopMa | customs probably wonder wtf I did to deserve so many gifts |
| 15:40.05 | DesktopMa | I import alot :P |
| 15:40.08 | LuitvD | lol |
| 15:40.20 | DesktopMa | "used video games: 20$" |
| 15:40.24 | LuitvD | heheh |
| 15:40.30 | DesktopMa | two wiis, 15 games, 10 dvds and a 360 hd-dvd player :P |
| 15:40.33 | LuitvD | production samples is a good one... |
| 15:40.46 | LuitvD | LOL, 20$ my ass :P |
| 15:40.54 | DesktopMa | :) |
| 15:40.55 | LuitvD | shipping maybe... |
| 15:40.57 | LuitvD | :P |
| 15:41.06 | DesktopMa | nah shipping for those was close to 80$ |
| 15:41.08 | DesktopMa | huge package |
| 15:41.10 | LuitvD | lol |
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| 15:41.36 | LuitvD | two wiis, 15 games, 10 dvds ... etc. : 300$ |
| 15:41.57 | LuitvD | getting it taxed like 20 dollars-worth: priceless |
| 15:42.10 | LuitvD | :) |
| 15:43.40 | DesktopMa | lol :) |
| 15:43.52 | DesktopMa | even with shipping I saved like, 200$ on that shipment |
| 15:43.56 | DesktopMa | Norwegian prices are insane |
| 15:44.04 | SpeedEvil | If it does ship from within europe, then that's a big plus. |
| 15:44.09 | DesktopMa | plus I get proper 24 fps movies |
| 15:44.23 | SpeedEvil | As - for example, in the UK, that'd save 24% or so of tax/duty. |
| 15:44.29 | DesktopMa | yeah |
| 15:44.37 | DesktopMa | or they could lie, as I suggested |
| 15:44.39 | SpeedEvil | Especially if the $350 price is held. |
| 15:44.54 | SpeedEvil | Companies lying on declaration forms is a really bad idea. |
| 15:45.48 | DesktopMa | shhh |
| 15:45.49 | DesktopMa | :P |
| 15:46.19 | SpeedEvil | For example, if it goes missing, then they only get paid the declared value in insurance. |
| 15:46.48 | SpeedEvil | And then there is the potential fraud problems in the target country. |
| 15:46.59 | SpeedEvil | As it is defrauding the tax authorities. |
| 15:47.11 | DesktopMa | that's why you need a shady individual to ship it to you |
| 15:47.17 | LuitvD | lol |
| 15:47.31 | DesktopMa | I'm not getting the phone if it means playing taxes on it twice |
| 15:47.39 | LuitvD | maybe "production sample" will come across the border without taxation? |
| 15:47.50 | DesktopMa | you still need a lower value |
| 15:47.55 | DesktopMa | unfortunatly... |
| 15:47.56 | LuitvD | dunno... |
| 15:47.58 | SpeedEvil | It only gets taxed once into the EU. |
| 15:48.07 | DesktopMa | I'm not in the EU |
| 15:48.11 | SpeedEvil | Oh. |
| 15:48.39 | SpeedEvil | I thought that .no was. |
| 15:48.41 | DesktopMa | guess I could order one to a swedish PO box |
| 15:48.47 | DesktopMa | and drive over and get it |
| 15:50.05 | CM | DesktopMa: Is it that much cheaper to get it here? (Gothenburg, sw) |
| 15:50.33 | DesktopMa | yeah because you don't have to pay taxes twice |
| 15:50.38 | XorA | LuitvD: declaring gift probably is, but adding Gift as a christianname for yourself is not, such a pity its ambiguous :-) |
| 15:50.39 | DesktopMa | I'd save 25% + 20$ |
| 15:51.06 | LuitvD | XorA: lol :) |
| 15:51.21 | aevin | will there be any point in trying to order collectively to reduce shipment costs, you think? |
| 15:51.27 | CM | DesktopMa: If you buy some alcohol on that trip over you'll save even more ;) |
| 15:51.40 | DesktopMa | yep! |
| 15:51.51 | *** join/#openmoko srikantux (n=sri@59.92.182.191) |
| 15:52.00 | XorA | although I filled in all the documentation properly for zaurus I ordered from Japan and I have never seen a customs bill |
| 15:52.11 | DesktopMa | aevin: a shipping center in uk/sweden/denmark/germany would be preferable |
| 15:52.18 | XorA | seems its pot luck what gets charged and what doesnt |
| 15:52.27 | aevin | i guess import taxes will be more expensive anyways... but probably unavoidable. |
| 15:52.40 | SpeedEvil | I'm willing to be the shipping centre in the UK. All I want is a couple of free ones :) |
| 15:52.44 | DesktopMa | not if you have a regular person shipping to you |
| 15:52.49 | LuitvD | XorA: true... many 100€+ packages passed customs here too |
| 15:53.31 | DesktopMa | everything is checked here |
| 15:53.35 | DesktopMa | they're all nazis |
| 15:53.45 | DesktopMa | all my packages have a samp that says "no customs" |
| 15:53.49 | DesktopMa | because of the downwritten value |
| 15:53.52 | DesktopMa | *stamp |
| 15:55.50 | SpeedEvil | The problem is that customs do open stuff occasionally. |
| 15:55.57 | SpeedEvil | And they know a phone isn't worth $20. |
| 15:56.15 | SpeedEvil | Then you have to prove it. |
| 15:56.46 | SpeedEvil | And incur extra costs usually, in addition to paying the tax anyway. |
| 15:59.41 | loufoque | you could say it was a printing error, it's actually $200 |
| 16:00.02 | LuitvD | wahahah |
| 16:00.46 | LuitvD | I hate customs... I hate tax... |
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| 16:02.25 | loufoque | It's just normal that the government gets its share in trades. |
| 16:02.28 | LuitvD | another good feature of the e2881: Full size SD |
| 16:02.56 | loufoque | another bad feature : mono speaker |
| 16:03.07 | SpeedEvil | LuitvD: with SDIO? |
| 16:03.10 | LuitvD | loufoque: they take a part of the money I make already... they got a part of the money I worked for |
| 16:03.14 | LuitvD | SpeedEvil: not sure |
| 16:03.21 | SpeedEvil | And SDIO isn't of much use anyway with only one slot. |
| 16:03.49 | *** join/#openmoko Magon (n=Magon@archangel.kolej.mff.cuni.cz) |
| 16:05.21 | LuitvD | SpeedEvil: it has internal microSD, and external full-size SD/MMC |
| 16:05.28 | LuitvD | SpeedEvil: that's one thing that's for sure |
| 16:05.28 | SpeedEvil | Ah. |
| 16:05.32 | aloril | SpeedEvil: fill phone with your own info so that it looks like it was yours already ;-) |
| 16:05.34 | SpeedEvil | I think you said that before. |
| 16:05.38 | LuitvD | SpeedEvil: yeah :) |
| 16:05.52 | aloril | SpeedEvil: then claim you lost it and nice person mails it to you |
| 16:06.26 | LuitvD | it's lying too... |
| 16:06.35 | SpeedEvil | Not when the tracking says 'held up in customs'. |
| 16:06.48 | *** join/#openmoko jpcass (n=chatzill@dyn221-210.ad.ic.ac.uk) |
| 16:07.35 | LuitvD | free* |
| 16:07.45 | aloril | anyway, best solution is to have shipped from EU ;-) |
| 16:08.16 | LuitvD | aloril: not sure about that... |
| 16:08.56 | aloril | LuitvD: if you live in EU, then no customs (and its honest) |
| 16:09.06 | LuitvD | aloril: are you sure? |
| 16:09.32 | loufoque | of course there are no customs between members of the EU |
| 16:10.06 | LuitvD | loufoque: you'd be surprised... |
| 16:10.12 | aloril | just needs to have where its shipped from be cheapest one to import outside EU |
| 16:10.14 | LuitvD | loufoque: everything is possible... |
| 16:10.43 | aloril | LuitvD: do you have some example? |
| 16:11.35 | LuitvD | aloril: I can't simply buy a computer from germany without the proper forms filled in declaring the tax has been applied in germany already... |
| 16:11.44 | LuitvD | aloril: they are suspicious as hell... |
| 16:12.10 | *** join/#openmoko mikesh (n=mikesh@x133.net.upc.cz) |
| 16:14.08 | LuitvD | lol, those e28 devices are quite new :) nearly all were launched early this year (the 2831, 2832, 2861, 2862 and 2881 are) |
| 16:14.40 | LuitvD | (and the e2831 has got FCC approval already :)) |
| 16:15.32 | vmaster | for a customer, the best thing about buying in the EU is that jurisdiction is at the customer's living place, not whereever the merchant sits |
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| 16:42.09 | rboehme | counter |
| 16:42.09 | aloril | P0: a week, a day 19:17:50 (-0.196 - 8.804 days); P1: 22.804 - 32.804; P2: 185.804 - 215.804 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (414) |
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| 17:03.46 | anselm | "we do have an irc channel" |
| 17:03.53 | anselm | (sean on stage) |
| 17:05.25 | SpeedEvil | What sort of a name is Pultz? |
| 17:05.27 | SpeedEvil | Polish? |
| 17:08.27 | vmaster | who's name is pultz? |
| 17:08.52 | vmaster | doesn't sound polish to me |
| 17:09.51 | vmaster | ah, sean's |
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| 17:12.11 | pH5 | SpeedEvil: just second hit on google, so take with a grain of salt: http://www.houseofnames.com/xq/asp.fc/qx/pultz-family-crest.htm |
| 17:16.19 | SpeedEvil | Interesting. |
| 17:17.21 | buz | for starters, reply from e28 would be neat |
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| 17:28.09 | robtaylor | mickeyl: ping? |
| 17:29.41 | robtaylor | koen: bloody-as-hell? :) |
| 17:29.46 | koen | yep |
| 17:29.52 | robtaylor | heh :) |
| 17:30.14 | robtaylor | right, i'm going to do some LTTng profileing of udev and hal |
| 17:30.32 | koen | isn't that RP-ware on arm as well? |
| 17:30.40 | robtaylor | i've ben thinking about what we were discussing re cutting down on probing |
| 17:31.05 | robtaylor | koen: LTTng? yep, i've got some kernels built with it for my N800 |
| 17:33.13 | *** part/#openmoko rejo1 (n=rejon@adsl-75-5-124-98.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) |
| 17:33.57 | robtaylor | koen: wish i had a 2410 to prfile on. something that show would show up problems much more clearly :) |
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| 17:35.20 | koen | robtaylor: because it lacks vfp? |
| 17:35.51 | robtaylor | koen: no cos its memory bandwidth sucks |
| 17:36.02 | koen | ah, right |
| 17:36.12 | LuitvD[eating] | buz: did you read what I said an hour or 2 before? |
| 17:36.13 | robtaylor | s/show/slow |
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| 17:37.27 | koen | robtaylor: the 2410 doesn't support a 32bit 200MHz bus? |
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| 17:39.42 | robtaylor | koen: don't know why its slow, just that a 200MHz 2410 is at least twice as slow than a 200Mhx OMA |
| 17:40.08 | LuitvD | buz: ? |
| 17:40.35 | koen | robtaylor: armv5 has an insanely optimized memcpy in the kernel and glibc |
| 17:40.52 | robtaylor | koen: 2410 is v4? |
| 17:40.57 | koen | yes |
| 17:41.01 | koen | v4t to be exact |
| 17:41.03 | robtaylor | ah |
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| 17:42.23 | koen | robtaylor: fingers crossed for a armv5 cpu in phase 2 :) |
| 17:42.53 | SpeedEvil | Does armv5 use more power? |
| 17:42.54 | robtaylor | yeah, something with a bit more oomph would be good |
| 17:43.09 | SpeedEvil | Specifically in the low power modes. |
| 17:43.15 | robtaylor | SpeedEvil: no, less, i think |
| 17:43.18 | hrw | koen: omap2430? i.mx? |
| 17:43.23 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 17:43.35 | robtaylor | SpeedEvil: depends a lot on trhe implementation |
| 17:44.00 | SpeedEvil | Yeah - the '33mW' of the 'slow mode' will be quite a lot higher, due to RAM power use, for ex. |
| 17:44.01 | koen | hrw: omap would give us a dsp, but the dsp tools aren't really open |
| 17:44.23 | nbd | and texas instruments code is really ugly |
| 17:44.26 | robtaylor | koen: well, they are usable though |
| 17:44.31 | vmaster | arm926ej-s is armv5, too, and not that much better than the arm920t |
| 17:44.45 | robtaylor | koen: but i think dsps are apof limited use |
| 17:44.54 | koen | they are |
| 17:46.04 | robtaylor | on the 770, it was only really useful for video playback, for ausio any gains were lost on the context switching on the mailbox |
| 17:46.10 | robtaylor | *audio |
| 17:46.23 | koen | right |
| 17:46.26 | LuitvD | does an arm chip run it's basic commands as single-cycle instructions?... |
| 17:46.39 | koen | I never understood why nokia decoded audio and video on the dsp |
| 17:46.41 | robtaylor | its notable on tha N800 most media pipelines are all on the arm core |
| 17:46.42 | SpeedEvil | Depends how stupid it is. A little fast RISC thingy with access to main memory and peripherals would be quite good. |
| 17:48.54 | SpeedEvil | As you could shut down the main CPU. |
| 17:48.54 | SpeedEvil | But... |
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| 17:49.21 | robtaylor | koen: well, they wouldn't have been able to do mpeg2 playback on the omap without dsp |
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| 17:49.22 | vmaster | LuitvD: most non-memory instructions execute single-cycle, except for multiplies for example |
| 17:49.22 | koen | robtaylor: right, but the cpu is being idle while the dsp is at a constant 100% |
| 17:49.22 | robtaylor | one of the nokia kernel guys did some interesting work on ways to talk to other cores, but its kinda been orphaned now |
| 17:49.23 | koen | vmaster: armv5e fastmult is singe cycle? |
| 17:49.23 | sixfeet | hi |
| 17:49.48 | koen | robtaylor: philips has a 'sea of dsp' project which is like openmosix for dsp |
| 17:50.18 | koen | if the main dsp isn't beefy enough it would offload cycle to the cpu or other dsps |
| 17:50.20 | koen | pretty neat |
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| 17:52.41 | robtaylor | dspfs |
| 17:52.58 | robtaylor | http://linux.omap.com/pipermail/linux-omap-open-source/2006-September/007921.html |
| 17:53.04 | vmaster | koen: yeah, the dsp multiplies can execute in a single cycle in most cases |
| 17:54.24 | koen | robtaylor: yeah, sort of like dspfs |
| 17:56.36 | LuitvD | two splits in 10 minutes? |
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| 17:57.04 | koen | LuitvD: it's called splitnode for a reason |
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| 17:57.05 | LuitvD | koen: haven't seen two splits occur in 10 minutes... |
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| 17:59.39 | LuitvD | lol, nearly my whole IRC screen full of "has joined" and "has quit" messages :D |
| 18:00.05 | LuitvD | sterling isn't that stable lately... |
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| 18:27.44 | buz | Phase 1+ June - Hardware Refresh - faster CPU to allow alpha blend UI |
| 18:27.44 | buz | etc. The #1 "request" i.e. WiFi - will be in the refresh hardware. |
| 18:27.50 | buz | w000t |
| 18:29.24 | buz | take that iphone |
| 18:29.39 | buz | twice the pixel, hundred times the apps |
| 18:29.41 | koen | buz: where did you read that? |
| 18:29.47 | buz | mailinglist |
| 18:30.11 | buz | OpenMoko workshop at ETel |
| 18:30.11 | buz | From: |
| 18:30.11 | buz | "adrian cockcroft" <adrian.cockcroft@gmail.com> |
| 18:30.17 | TheKarn | anyone have experience running openmoko on a universal? |
| 18:30.32 | koen | buz: ignore that message |
| 18:30.52 | buz | oh come on i still have some drool left |
| 18:31.01 | koen | buz: sean only said "faster cpu" and "the thing everyine is asking for" |
| 18:31.15 | koen | he never said wifi |
| 18:31.37 | CM | I'd doubt that wifi is that simple to add |
| 18:31.47 | CM | 128mb flash instead of 64 maybe? |
| 18:31.53 | koen | or a cam |
| 18:31.55 | buz | cm: i think csr has combo chips |
| 18:32.00 | koen | or small keyboard |
| 18:32.12 | buz | by far number one request was wifi i believe |
| 18:32.15 | koen | or putting "gnu" in the name |
| 18:32.21 | CM | hehe |
| 18:32.36 | buz | cam would probably be simpler than wifi yes |
| 18:32.50 | koen | I wouldn't hold my breath for wifi |
| 18:33.03 | buz | this is why rumours are deadly |
| 18:33.13 | buz | either give people facts or shut up |
| 18:33.34 | CM | buz: It creates buzz ;) |
| 18:33.43 | koen | so tell mr cockcroft to shut up |
| 18:34.05 | koen | the 512MB sd card wasn't for sure as well |
| 18:34.19 | buz | who cares for the card |
| 18:34.25 | SpeedEvil | € Well - it's not a large investment. |
| 18:34.26 | buz | you can get 1G for like 8EUR now |
| 18:34.37 | CM | The card is more important in phase 2 |
| 18:34.37 | koen | it shows that http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-February/003833.html is full of errors |
| 18:35.01 | CM | Right now it might as well ship with no card, we'll all buy one anyway if we need it |
| 18:35.03 | koen | so going OMG WIFI!!! is a bit naive |
| 18:35.15 | buz | CM: exactly |
| 18:35.39 | SpeedEvil | I've wondered about ripping out the BT module, and jamming in a wifi one. |
| 18:35.51 | SpeedEvil | i've got a USB stick that looks around the same size - sans connector/case. |
| 18:35.54 | CM | But if it's to be used by the average consumer, they just want to be able to put music on it |
| 18:36.07 | buz | cm: even most music phones dont ship with cards |
| 18:36.16 | LuitvD | koen: what's a feed eader? :P |
| 18:36.22 | CM | buz: True, or a 64mb one |
| 18:36.27 | LuitvD | koen: yeah... it's naive... but it's hope :) |
| 18:36.30 | buz | which is none in my view |
| 18:36.51 | buz | if this is a cam, sean shouldnt have told us about |
| 18:37.01 | buz | there were actually people who were decidedly against cam |
| 18:37.04 | LuitvD | buz: you said that the e2862 would be about 250$? |
| 18:37.12 | buz | 2831 i thnk |
| 18:37.18 | LuitvD | hmm |
| 18:37.28 | LuitvD | :) |
| 18:37.37 | CM | I guess we'll see soon. Maybe they're still negotiating some parts |
| 18:37.40 | buz | heard anything from e28? |
| 18:38.03 | LuitvD | nope |
| 18:38.13 | buz | and IF it is a cam, better make it 2mp+ |
| 18:38.18 | buz | everything else is worse than useless |
| 18:38.29 | koen | CM: I'll wait for the device to get delivered to my home :) |
| 18:38.30 | LuitvD | CM: once the mail is recieved, it is an official announcement |
| 18:38.41 | CM | koen: :P |
| 18:38.46 | buz | CM: only when the mail comes from some official source |
| 18:38.50 | LuitvD | CM: oh wait... is that about e28 or neo? |
| 18:38.54 | LuitvD | :P |
| 18:38.55 | LuitvD | sorry |
| 18:39.05 | buz | oh wrong nick |
| 18:39.18 | LuitvD | lol |
| 18:39.20 | CM | LuitvD: I meant the neo 1.5 rumors, but I did read your pastebin mail before so I know what you mean too |
| 18:39.22 | LuitvD | my bad |
| 18:39.41 | LuitvD | confusion all around :) |
| 18:39.59 | buz | i wonderif one could add sliding keyboard DIY |
| 18:40.08 | LuitvD | to what device? |
| 18:40.12 | buz | neo1 |
| 18:40.13 | SpeedEvil | Sure. |
| 18:40.19 | SpeedEvil | You can do whatever you have the skills for. |
| 18:40.24 | CM | buz: I'd rather add that tiny bt keyboard and some clever carrying thing for it |
| 18:40.26 | buz | can you buy sliding keyboards |
| 18:40.38 | buz | folding keyboards look weird |
| 18:40.41 | SpeedEvil | Probably not of a suitable size, you'll need to make it. |
| 18:40.53 | LuitvD | buz: all you'll practically need is a USB connection and a power source... and some replacement backplate |
| 18:41.02 | buz | could even go bluetooth |
| 18:41.09 | buz | kinda stupid, but hey |
| 18:41.13 | buz | one less wire |
| 18:41.24 | SpeedEvil | Or even use a speak-and-spell, and voice recognition. |
| 18:41.28 | LuitvD | kind of difficult, holding both the neo and a BT keyboard in two hands |
| 18:41.35 | buz | yeah thats why i want sliding |
| 18:41.40 | LuitvD | lol |
| 18:41.41 | buz | or clamshell |
| 18:41.50 | LuitvD | clip-on bluetooth/usb |
| 18:42.19 | LuitvD | (some new smartphones have some sort of clip-on keyboard ... clicking into some docking-station-like connector |
| 18:42.36 | buz | mhh which ones |
| 18:42.39 | LuitvD | bt-click-on wouldn't need that) |
| 18:42.48 | buz | never seen that (well excep that weird htc prototype) |
| 18:42.49 | LuitvD | I think some new nokia's |
| 18:43.01 | buz | i generally follow nokia quite closely |
| 18:43.03 | SpeedEvil | BT means battery + volume + ... |
| 18:43.06 | buz | dont think i ever saw something like that |
| 18:44.09 | buz | since my p900 works again, i can wait some more for definitive info ;) |
| 18:44.39 | LuitvD | omg, I'd love to have that samsung-prada phone run moko :) |
| 18:44.57 | LuitvD | (even more expensive/less open device) |
| 18:45.25 | buz | thats lg |
| 18:45.28 | buz | and no vga |
| 18:45.49 | LuitvD | lg? |
| 18:45.53 | buz | i think |
| 18:45.58 | buz | not samsung iirc |
| 18:46.00 | LuitvD | that prada thing is samsung |
| 18:46.13 | mikesh | its lg prada :) |
| 18:46.13 | buz | mhh |
| 18:46.39 | buz | http://www.pradaphonebylg.com/ |
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| 18:46.44 | LuitvD | hmmz |
| 18:46.45 | buz | doesnt get any clearer than that |
| 18:46.58 | buz | now that meizu m8... |
| 18:47.16 | buz | (its inevitable, whenever iphone comes up, m8 must come up too ;) |
| 18:47.20 | LuitvD | buz: I confused that prada phone with this: http://www.mobile-review.com/exhibition/image/2007/3gsm/samsung/f700-4.jpg |
| 18:47.21 | LuitvD | :P |
| 18:47.25 | LuitvD | that one is nice :) |
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| 18:47.39 | buz | thats a dumb phone |
| 18:47.46 | buz | not even symbian or something afaik |
| 18:47.57 | buz | (possibly it's a dumbed down winmobile though) |
| 18:48.11 | LuitvD | yeah... |
| 18:48.22 | buz | i might live with symbian |
| 18:48.22 | LuitvD | that samsung phone runs winmobile |
| 18:48.30 | buz | but not with samsung proprietary weirdness |
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| 18:48.44 | LuitvD | DAMN, that prada thing only has an 800mAh battery... |
| 18:49.03 | LuitvD | that's sad :P |
| 18:49.38 | buz | battery alone would make a case for a bigger neo back |
| 18:49.39 | LuitvD[away] | :P |
| 18:49.39 | buz | could we wire two blc in parallel? |
| 18:50.14 | buz | to get like 2400mah |
| 18:50.44 | SpeedEvil | buz: yes - you shouldn't. |
| 18:50.51 | SpeedEvil | You need to add protection. |
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| 18:51.03 | SpeedEvil | LuitvD[away]: And from the look of the website - a mono display. |
| 18:51.22 | buz | SpeedEvil: if that is mono, you're colorblind |
| 18:51.40 | SpeedEvil | I was meaning the http://www.pradaphonebylg.com/ site |
| 18:52.03 | SpeedEvil | Apparently, it's black and white, and makes you thin. |
| 18:52.15 | buz | will sell by the containers then |
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| 18:56.00 | SpeedEvil | That'll have excellent battery life. |
| 18:56.06 | SpeedEvil | As the backlight uses lots. |
| 18:57.00 | koen | just remove the lcd, backlight and gsm radio |
| 18:57.08 | koen | much better battery life |
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| 18:57.51 | buz | i could see a phone without lcd |
| 18:57.56 | buz | without gsm is kinda hard |
| 18:58.10 | buz | (there ARE cellphone without display) |
| 18:58.39 | SpeedEvil | Yeah - me too. |
| 18:58.50 | SpeedEvil | Voice interface - done well. |
| 18:58.59 | LuitvD[away] | koen: e-ink/e-paper, much better... |
| 18:59.03 | SpeedEvil | And without the display, you can go for much larger buttons. |
| 18:59.13 | buz | oled |
| 18:59.18 | LuitvD | buz: no, not oled |
| 18:59.21 | LuitvD | e-ink |
| 18:59.22 | SpeedEvil | oled uses lots of power when on. |
| 18:59.29 | buz | good luck scrolling with e-ink |
| 18:59.30 | koen | moto has an e-ink phone |
| 18:59.38 | SpeedEvil | Though it can do one or two pixels on very cheaply. |
| 18:59.39 | buz | koen: they claim they have |
| 18:59.44 | buz | i dont think they actually ship it |
| 18:59.52 | Stephmw | koen: I'm curious to know why they don't have more |
| 18:59.53 | LuitvD | buz: the refresh-rate of e-paper/e-ink is great... actually... |
| 19:00.07 | buz | cause thre is no color eink right now |
| 19:00.14 | LuitvD | :) |
| 19:00.18 | LuitvD | who needs that? |
| 19:00.19 | SpeedEvil | There are prototypes. |
| 19:00.24 | LuitvD | grayscale ftw! |
| 19:00.24 | buz | numbers of 0.5s being thrown around dont seem that great to me |
| 19:00.24 | koen | e-ink rocks |
| 19:00.31 | SpeedEvil | Which print filters over the e-ink balls. |
| 19:01.09 | LuitvD | how ill is it? :P |
| 19:01.12 | LuitvD | isn't it iliad? |
| 19:01.57 | buz | i wonder what hostname my neo will have |
| 19:02.11 | buz | trinity or morpheus maybe |
| 19:02.17 | Stephmw | meh, be original |
| 19:02.24 | Stephmw | 'neo' |
| 19:02.29 | TheKarn | anyone here run openmoko on HTC Universal? |
| 19:02.30 | LuitvD | heheheh |
| 19:02.39 | koen | Stephmw: 'smith' |
| 19:02.46 | buz | to find him |
| 19:02.58 | buz | mhh somehow that tab completion doesnt work |
| 19:03.05 | LuitvD | lol |
| 19:03.15 | Stephmw | bwahaha |
| 19:03.47 | buz | merovingian |
| 19:03.58 | buz | (had the hottest chicks by far) |
| 19:05.21 | buz | smith aint half bad |
| 19:05.27 | buz | (after all, i study economics ;) |
| 19:05.53 | buz | a friend of mine atually names his hosts after famous economists |
| 19:06.03 | *** part/#openmoko cying (n=cying@adsl-75-18-228-80.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) |
| 19:06.09 | LuitvD | buz: maybe call it "bananaphone" ? |
| 19:06.31 | LuitvD | (type of phone neo uses all the time) |
| 19:07.06 | *** join/#openmoko jeddy3 (n=mattiast@gw.sbg.se) |
| 19:07.11 | *** join/#openmoko chairuou (n=typn@unaffiliated/chairuou) |
| 19:08.56 | *** join/#openmoko woglinde (i=woglinde@e178109173.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 19:08.59 | buz | maybe call it aragorn, as it shall lead us to victory over the dark forces from redmond |
| 19:09.11 | woglinde | counter |
| 19:09.11 | aloril | P0: a week, a day 16:50:48 (-0.298 - 8.702 days); P1: 22.702 - 32.702; P2: 185.702 - 215.702 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (415) |
| 19:11.27 | aloril2 | or s/LCD/HMD/ ;-) |
| 19:13.20 | *** join/#openmoko disguy__160148 (i=ariel@gateway/tor/x-06261d32aac9215e) |
| 19:15.59 | DesktopMa | the HTC Advantage looks pretty spiffy |
| 19:16.04 | DesktopMa | would be awesome to get openmoko on it |
| 19:17.38 | buz | huge device |
| 19:18.54 | *** join/#openmoko DeVol (n=DeVol@dD5E041D3.access.telenet.be) |
| 19:21.58 | dullard | TheKarn, I've been running gpe on my universal... haven't got round to openmoko yet |
| 19:24.09 | buz | what robot is that anyway |
| 19:24.11 | LuitvD | as soon as this robot is done, I'll be working on openmoko some more I guess :) |
| 19:24.20 | buz | does it bring beer? |
| 19:24.33 | LuitvD | buz: I'm building a robot for some school project... it balances on 2 weels... at least, it's supposed to |
| 19:24.41 | buz | oh segway |
| 19:24.50 | LuitvD | got to get him to do that again in 2 days, for the presentation... |
| 19:24.54 | LuitvD | hope it won't let me down... |
| 19:25.02 | buz | i need to hand in a term paper tomorrow |
| 19:25.07 | LuitvD | right now the ref-resistor is red-hot :) |
| 19:25.15 | buz | but one of the idiots in my group wont submit his sources |
| 19:25.21 | LuitvD | (it's a 10W resistor though...) |
| 19:25.30 | high-rez | counter |
| 19:25.30 | aloril | P0: a week, a day 16:34:29 (-0.309 - 8.691 days); P1: 22.691 - 32.691; P2: 185.691 - 215.691 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (416) |
| 19:25.35 | LuitvD | counter |
| 19:25.35 | aloril | P0: a week, a day 16:34:24 (-0.309 - 8.691 days); P1: 22.691 - 32.691; P2: 185.691 - 215.691 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (417) |
| 19:25.37 | LuitvD | lol |
| 19:25.50 | LuitvD | aloril: why don't you let it /msg... |
| 19:25.52 | Stephmw | you two testing aloril's RTC? |
| 19:26.05 | LuitvD | Stephmw: just me testing :) |
| 19:26.17 | high-rez | Heh, NTPoIRC |
| 19:26.22 | LuitvD | hahah |
| 19:26.36 | LuitvD | got DCF here... |
| 19:26.44 | LuitvD | don't need any NTP |
| 19:27.06 | buz | the neo absolutely needs an atomic time source |
| 19:27.07 | SirCrow | counter |
| 19:27.07 | aloril | P0: a week, a day 16:32:52 (-0.311 - 8.689 days); P1: 22.689 - 32.689; P2: 185.689 - 215.689 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (418) |
| 19:27.12 | LuitvD | (DCF is cool :)) |
| 19:27.17 | stefan_schmidt | mickeyl: To replace the openmoko-standard theme with openmoko-standard-qvga we just need to replace all file in /usr/share/themes/openmko-standard with the new one from bug 197? |
| 19:27.18 | Stephmw | buz: polonium? |
| 19:27.28 | buz | i think cesium is standard |
| 19:27.32 | high-rez | LuitvD: Oh man, you're now my new time resources. :) |
| 19:27.44 | LuitvD | high-rez: what? |
| 19:27.48 | LuitvD | :P |
| 19:28.00 | Stephmw | buz: but polonium is more likely to prevent you flying :D |
| 19:28.11 | LuitvD | loll |
| 19:28.18 | high-rez | What frequency is DCF on ? |
| 19:28.52 | LuitvD | high-rez: I've got no idea... gotta look that up... |
| 19:29.40 | Elrond | 77 something. probably MHz ;) |
| 19:29.40 | high-rez | I've always wanted to setup my own stratum1. |
| 19:29.41 | LuitvD | 66 I guess... |
| 19:29.56 | Elrond | It's called DCF77 for a reason. ;o) |
| 19:29.58 | LuitvD | Elrond: no you're right... DCF77 |
| 19:30.00 | LuitvD | hehehe |
| 19:30.08 | LuitvD | thought it was called DCF66 somehow... |
| 19:30.10 | LuitvD | stupid me |
| 19:30.12 | Elrond | ... or I'm completely on the wrong trip. ;) |
| 19:30.17 | buz | mhh 185g is quite a lot |
| 19:30.31 | LuitvD | Elrond: lol, could be.. |
| 19:30.44 | Elrond | LuitvD - So is it MHz? |
| 19:30.57 | LuitvD | nope |
| 19:31.03 | LuitvD | 77,5KHz |
| 19:31.06 | Elrond | Ahh. |
| 19:31.23 | LuitvD | :P |
| 19:31.41 | LuitvD | 77MHz is shortwave... never gets that far... |
| 19:31.46 | Elrond | Should have guessed... it's so old... in those days people did not use MHz. ;o) |
| 19:31.54 | Elrond | Right. |
| 19:32.08 | LuitvD | you can't carry MHz's over half of europe :) |
| 19:32.14 | LuitvD | you can with KHz's |
| 19:32.21 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03mickey * r1150 10/trunk/oe/conf/distro/openmoko.conf: oe/conf/distro/openmoko.conf: merge CVS_TARBALL_PATCH from Rod Whitby. closes #214 |
| 19:33.11 | Elrond | Yeah. |
| 19:33.15 | LuitvD | Elrond: though the fact that sending one date-time-cycle proves the system is quite old :P |
| 19:33.51 | LuitvD | time/date info is sent in 1sec bits, some 40 bits |
| 19:33.57 | mickeyl | stefan_schmidt: yes, that should be it. I'll merge the patch hopefully soon and will add an .ipk for openmoko-theme-qvga |
| 19:34.03 | mickeyl | well |
| 19:34.09 | mickeyl | s/.ipk/.bb/ |
| 19:34.19 | koen | to OE or mokosvn? |
| 19:34.43 | mickeyl | both :) |
| 19:34.47 | LuitvD | koen: it's not really useful for gta01 right? |
| 19:34.58 | LuitvD | so it should be a different device? |
| 19:35.21 | LuitvD | or doesn't OE really care about that? |
| 19:35.26 | mickeyl | it doesn't |
| 19:35.31 | stefan_schmidt | mickeyl: hmm, ok. This does not work here on E680. But perhaps we do something wrong. |
| 19:35.33 | LuitvD | okay :) |
| 19:35.40 | mickeyl | stefan_schmidt: what exactly is the behaviour you see? |
| 19:35.47 | mickeyl | try starting a gtk program on command line |
| 19:35.55 | stefan_schmidt | mickeyl: We try further. Keep you informed. |
| 19:36.01 | mickeyl | and see whether the gtkrc parser puts out bogus stuff |
| 19:36.06 | mickeyl | ok, crossing fingers |
| 19:36.12 | stefan_schmidt | mickeyl: No input neither ts nor usbnet |
| 19:36.20 | mickeyl | eek |
| 19:36.20 | mickeyl | nasty |
| 19:36.21 | koen | mickeyl: starting from cmdline needs some care |
| 19:36.29 | koen | mickeyl: you need to have the dbus ENV vards |
| 19:36.36 | koen | -d |
| 19:37.28 | LuitvD | sounds like farts... pronounced with a paralized toungue... |
| 19:37.38 | LuitvD | nvm... :) |
| 19:37.56 | mickeyl | cu |
| 19:38.15 | *** join/#openmoko gandoo (n=IceChat7@80.88.175.221) |
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| 19:39.53 | robtaylor | mickeyl: has anyone done an openmoko vmware image yet? |
| 19:40.26 | robtaylor | build-environ type thing? |
| 19:40.28 | mickeyl | robtaylor: to my knowledge, no. [g2] was planning to do that, but i didn't see anything yet |
| 19:40.48 | robtaylor | mickeyl: ok, i've been taking a look at it too |
| 19:40.54 | koen | we need an emulator for vmware first |
| 19:41.03 | robtaylor | mickeyl: i guess it should use the openmoko branch rather than .dev |
| 19:41.26 | mickeyl | robtaylor: for now that's the only thing i can guarantee to work(ish) ;) |
| 19:41.34 | robtaylor | koen: i'm talking about a way to quicly try out the development environment |
| 19:41.38 | mickeyl | i'm still a bit away from maintaining OM in OE |
| 19:41.47 | robtaylor | :S |
| 19:41.55 | koen | robtaylor: I'm just being annoying, since vmware is an emulator |
| 19:42.10 | robtaylor | koen: oh, ok :P |
| 19:42.17 | koen | mickeyl: actually openmoko recipes have less bugs in OE than in svn |
| 19:42.31 | koen | mickeyl: as mokomakefile makes clear |
| 19:42.39 | *** join/#openmoko MetaBookfoziS (n=sajt@53d82b8d.adsl.enternet.hu) |
| 19:43.10 | robtaylor | koen: yeah, but he'll still need a 'stable' branch in OE proper |
| 19:43.58 | LuitvD | should I, or shouldn't I buy that e2881? |
| 19:44.24 | robtaylor | LuitvD: is it availiable? |
| 19:44.36 | LuitvD | robtaylor: not sure... |
| 19:44.43 | aloril2 | LuitvD: did you "/msg aloril counter" or "/msg aloril counter?" |
| 19:45.05 | LuitvD | robtaylor: but I can always get it via someone who lives in hongkong |
| 19:45.16 | koen | robtaylor: ohm mail! |
| 19:45.21 | LuitvD | aloril2: I mean disable the counter on this channel... |
| 19:45.26 | robtaylor | koen: ooh! |
| 19:45.27 | koen | now I have to update procmail... |
| 19:46.46 | *** join/#openmoko rd__ (n=redragon@segfault.net) |
| 19:47.26 | LuitvD | robtaylor: so it's available to me :) |
| 19:47.39 | *** join/#openmoko Nik0 (n=lewmnik@dsl-hkigw8-feedf900-96.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 19:48.05 | robtaylor | koen: hmm, i'm gonna need a while to parse that one, i think :) |
| 19:48.13 | robtaylor | LuitvD: well, why not? :) |
| 19:48.26 | koen | robtaylor: it sums the issues pretty well |
| 19:48.41 | koen | robtaylor: it's only missing gsm and bt headset issues |
| 19:48.46 | robtaylor | koen: yeah, i need to split it down a bit |
| 19:49.00 | robtaylor | yeah, i'm not really sure where audio fits in exactaly |
| 19:50.40 | robtaylor | its a very interesting problem domain |
| 19:50.41 | LuitvD | sterling is fucked up lately... |
| 19:50.43 | LuitvD | guess this is the fourth split today... |
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| 19:53.48 | LuitvD | welcome back y'all :P |
| 20:01.46 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@206.80-202-161.nextgentel.com) |
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| 20:05.45 | koen | robtaylor: I don't think openmoko needs a stable branch right now |
| 20:05.59 | koen | robtaylor: after p1, yes, but not at this moment |
| 20:06.55 | robtaylor | koen: well, i think mickeyl would disagree |
| 20:07.13 | robtaylor | koen: the problem is .dev changes too quickly, so you waste development time |
| 20:07.31 | koen | you waste time either way |
| 20:07.47 | koen | dunno which one wasts less |
| 20:07.53 | robtaylor | koen: yes, but with a branch you get to choose when you wate development time |
| 20:08.32 | koen | but it can't garantee it wastes less |
| 20:09.03 | robtaylor | koen: no, it probably doesnt waste less time, but being able to make teh decision when to deal with new changes is very important |
| 20:09.18 | robtaylor | esp on tight deadlines |
| 20:09.35 | pvanhoof | robtaylor, you had a haircut for fosdem? :) |
| 20:09.57 | koen | robtaylor: the fact is that I fixed a shitload of bugs which still aren't in svn, but are in OE |
| 20:09.59 | robtaylor | pvanhoof: yeah :) i'm trying to make a habit of having regular haricuts now :) |
| 20:10.04 | pvanhoof | :) |
| 20:10.15 | pvanhoof | no way, you where just trying to score some Belgian girls |
| 20:10.15 | koen | robtaylor: which means using svn *right now* is wasting dev time |
| 20:10.26 | robtaylor | koen: yeah, i hope mickeyl has the time to check it out really soon |
| 20:10.38 | robtaylor | pvanhoof: would *I* do a thing like that? ;) |
| 20:10.50 | woglinde | lol |
| 20:10.51 | pvanhoof | nope, but you might try |
| 20:10.54 | robtaylor | heh |
| 20:10.56 | koen | robtaylor: the trouble is that the oe-savvy devs in FIC only have time to work on the framework |
| 20:11.43 | pvanhoof | what was that thingy Duke Nukem always said about aliens trying to steal our chicks |
| 20:12.02 | koen | time to kick ass and chew bubble gum? |
| 20:12.27 | pvanhoof | robtaylor, don't forget: Nobody steals our chicks... and lives |
| 20:12.33 | robtaylor | pvanhoof: heh :) |
| 20:12.52 | robtaylor | pvanhoof: didn't get to talk much. did you have a good FOSDEM? |
| 20:13.02 | pvanhoof | yeah, but extremely compressed |
| 20:13.23 | pvanhoof | it wasn't just Macslows fault that we didn't meet (he wrote something about it in his blog) |
| 20:13.26 | robtaylor | i think next year it should be a week long ;) |
| 20:13.38 | pvanhoof | I was really busy talking with IMAP guys, nokians, etc etc |
| 20:13.41 | koen | oi |
| 20:13.59 | koen | and finish with a rum session |
| 20:14.00 | pvanhoof | oh, right, meeting with Koen of course too. Though that was a short meeting |
| 20:14.13 | pvanhoof | :) |
| 20:14.16 | koen | :) |
| 20:14.20 | tigert | haha, i thought this was #maemo by looking at the nicks :) |
| 20:14.41 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03werner * r1151 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-dfu.patch: |
| 20:14.41 | CIA-7 | openmoko: drivers/usbdfu.c (get_partition_nand): mtdparts_init indicates failure with |
| 20:14.41 | CIA-7 | openmoko: non-zero return code, not just negative |
| 20:14.41 | CIA-7 | openmoko: drivers/usbdfu.c (get_partition_nand): check that "devices" is non-empty before |
| 20:14.41 | CIA-7 | openmoko: using its first element |
| 20:14.45 | pvanhoof | maemo, openmoko, what's the difference |
| 20:14.54 | pvanhoof | oh right, some of the hardware |
| 20:14.56 | koen | moko is actually opensource ;) |
| 20:15.11 | pvanhoof | hardware, nobody cares about hardware :), software .. however! |
| 20:15.20 | koen | *lightbulb* |
| 20:15.21 | tigert | i dont have a Neo yet |
| 20:15.29 | pvanhoof | don't blame me, it's a hardware problem etc etc |
| 20:15.38 | tigert | ;) |
| 20:16.01 | robtaylor | koen: ah. well remembered |
| 20:16.44 | pvanhoof | koen, t-dose might not be ready for it yet .. but they should keep the doors open for week-long conferences imo :) |
| 20:16.45 | Elrond | tigert - They're fixing the power issues, I presume ;) |
| 20:16.54 | koen | robtaylor: http://www.bleb.org/software/n800/os2007-src/ |
| 20:17.20 | pvanhoof | in the end, it's not really doable to do both social networking and attending *some* talks on two days |
| 20:17.37 | robtaylor | koen: ooh, well the code is either gonna be in xserver or tslib, i guess |
| 20:19.11 | koen | tslib (0.1.1-6) unstable; urgency=low |
| 20:19.11 | koen | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:19.11 | koen | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:19.11 | koen | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:20.01 | noidd | gpl offer? |
| 20:20.03 | Stephmw | B-D? on a *fixed* l-k-h??? |
| 20:20.09 | noidd | greetings y'all |
| 20:20.23 | robtaylor | koen: interesting comment in pressure.c > |
| 20:20.23 | robtaylor | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:20.33 | koen | Stephmw: I guess build-dep |
| 20:20.46 | robtaylor | koen: ooh |
| 20:20.55 | koen | robtaylor: yeah, it seems the replaced the pressure module |
| 20:21.11 | koen | downloading all 28 megs of xorg-xserver..... |
| 20:21.11 | Stephmw | koen: that type of shorthand should be discouraged - it doesn't improve anything :( |
| 20:22.40 | mickeyl | pvanhoof: i agree. there were at least 10 talks that I wanted to attend, but all I managed was one :/ |
| 20:22.48 | mickeyl | it was super-crazy this year |
| 20:22.55 | mickeyl | should be bumped to at least 4 days |
| 20:22.57 | pvanhoof | jep |
| 20:23.27 | noidd | I'm jelous of the conference peeps |
| 20:23.34 | noidd | I don't even have a valid passport anyone. |
| 20:23.47 | noidd | I can't even get back to my country of citizenship if I need to :-P |
| 20:24.12 | pvanhoof | noidd, I don't think Belgium doesn't disallow travelers from a lot countries |
| 20:24.17 | pvanhoof | oh isee :) |
| 20:24.20 | robtaylor | mickeyl: agreed! |
| 20:24.39 | koen | robtaylor: * Always send button 1, instead of button 8, for thumb events. |
| 20:24.44 | pvanhoof | for example, I don't think it would be a big problem for an Iranian to get in (as a traveler) |
| 20:25.43 | pvanhoof | oh, robtaylor. Wont that be a problem for some folks for the next guadec? |
| 20:27.33 | koen | mickeyl: http://rafb.net/p/vuEQfZ77.html |
| 20:27.36 | koen | robtaylor: http://rafb.net/p/vuEQfZ77.html |
| 20:27.47 | LuitvD | lol |
| 20:29.09 | mickeyl | oh it _is_ pressure based after all? |
| 20:29.13 | mickeyl | hmm |
| 20:29.44 | koen | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:29.45 | koen | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:29.45 | koen | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:29.45 | koen | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:29.45 | koen | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:29.54 | Stephmw | interesting |
| 20:30.55 | LuitvD | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:30.55 | LuitvD | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:30.59 | LuitvD | even more interesting :P |
| 20:31.35 | LuitvD | don't really get that sequence... |
| 20:31.43 | noidd | is pressure literal pressure in this context of amount of surface area which now has pressure |
| 20:31.48 | noidd | if you get what i mean |
| 20:32.06 | koen | LuitvD: it detect "pendown" or "thumbdown", and sometimes you get both |
| 20:32.10 | koen | detects* |
| 20:32.44 | noidd | actually - that makes sense if you think of it in terms of area in contact |
| 20:32.46 | LuitvD | koen: thumb up is mentioned twice... |
| 20:32.49 | robtaylor | yea i guess pressure in this context is to do with the current flow? |
| 20:33.09 | noidd | narrow down, wide down, wide up changes to narrow down |
| 20:33.09 | LuitvD | koen: and I don't see any "pen up" in that sequence... |
| 20:33.19 | robtaylor | larger surface area->greater current flow between the planes? |
| 20:33.19 | koen | right |
| 20:33.24 | koen | you see the problem? |
| 20:33.28 | noidd | thats how I would view it |
| 20:33.42 | noidd | yeah, hello random signal emmissions |
| 20:33.59 | noidd | you want almost a de-bouce for your X server - heh |
| 20:34.11 | noidd | like de-bouncing a switch |
| 20:35.20 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03rwhitby * r24 10mokomakefile/trunk/patches/openmoko-HEAD/ (series tarball-stash.patch): Removed the tarball-stash patch, as it has been applied in the official OpenMoko SVN repo. |
| 20:39.50 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03werner * r1152 10/trunk/src/host/dfu-util/src/ (main.c sam7dfu.c): |
| 20:39.50 | CIA-7 | openmoko: sam7dfu.c (sam7dfu_do_upload, sam7dfu_do_dnload): make error handling more |
| 20:39.50 | CIA-7 | openmoko: consistent by printing errors also if system calls fail |
| 20:39.50 | CIA-7 | openmoko: main.c (main): exit with non-zero exit status if sam7dfu_do_upload or |
| 20:39.50 | CIA-7 | openmoko: sam7dfu_do_dnload fail |
| 20:40.05 | *** join/#openmoko _rob (n=rob@ACB24AEA.ipt.aol.com) |
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| 20:57.42 | CM | ~change 100 SEK to KZT |
| 20:59.08 | aevin | CM: what state uses KZT as currency? |
| 20:59.16 | CM | Kazakhstan |
| 20:59.21 | CM | Have a friend there :) |
| 20:59.28 | aevin | ah :) |
| 21:00.08 | *** join/#openmoko Lars_G (n=lars@unaffiliated/lars-g/x-000001) |
| 21:00.25 | Lars_G | I need help! i want ideas on legal ways to save the $350 from now to March 11th! |
| 21:00.46 | stefan_schmidt | Lars_G: stop eating? |
| 21:00.49 | Lars_G | I would rent my body, but it's not legal. |
| 21:01.20 | Lars_G | Hmm two weeks without food? might work. though I don't spend $175 a week in food. |
| 21:01.30 | mxn | rob somebody? |
| 21:01.40 | stefan_schmidt | mxn: legal? |
| 21:01.41 | Lars_G | nto legal |
| 21:01.42 | mxn | or make weird photos and blackmail |
| 21:01.48 | mxn | oh |
| 21:01.52 | mxn | that makes things harder |
| 21:01.55 | Lars_G | yeah |
| 21:02.01 | stefan_schmidt | Lars_G: Perhaps you have luck and it comes later. :) |
| 21:02.07 | koen | it's only illegal if you get caught |
| 21:02.13 | stefan_schmidt | heh |
| 21:02.13 | Lars_G | stefan_schmidt: that's not luck! |
| 21:02.18 | CM | Do like all retired people, collect and recycle cans and bottles ;) |
| 21:02.26 | mxn | hrm |
| 21:02.28 | Lars_G | hmmm recycling cans.... |
| 21:02.30 | Lars_G | might work |
| 21:02.32 | mxn | Lars_G, are you any good at reverse engineering? |
| 21:02.41 | mxn | i could subcontract you ;> |
| 21:02.56 | Lars_G | mxn: No, I'm down there at between "learning" and "passable" |
| 21:03.53 | *** join/#openmoko cying_ (n=cying@75.44.21.9) |
| 21:03.55 | mxn | win32 programming? |
| 21:04.12 | mxn | only very little work to do there |
| 21:04.41 | Lars_G | win32? never! |
| 21:04.46 | Lars_G | I only code for *nix |
| 21:04.52 | *** join/#openmoko grgehunt (n=greg@88-108-12-5.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) |
| 21:05.03 | Lars_G | sometimes, I do cross platform apps that will work in windows. but only sometimes |
| 21:05.29 | mxn | same here, i had to learn some winapi stuff for this project, but it's so demotivating/boring :/ |
| 21:05.43 | Lars_G | Nah I don't do WinAPI |
| 21:05.56 | Lars_G | either J2SE, or now some c++ / Qt |
| 21:06.05 | *** join/#openmoko cathal (n=cathal@89.100.102.170) |
| 21:06.08 | mxn | you'll have to find some other way to earn the money then ;) |
| 21:06.10 | Lars_G | WinAPI makes me develope blisters |
| 21:06.26 | mxn | ooor.. i subcontract you, and you find somebody else to subcontract ;P |
| 21:06.26 | woglinde | lars_g but openmoko uses gtk |
| 21:06.37 | aevin | Lars_G: if you really need cash you should look for a job. |
| 21:06.37 | Lars_G | woglinde: I don't mind that |
| 21:06.45 | Lars_G | aevin: I have a job |
| 21:06.49 | Lars_G | and I can't take a second right now. |
| 21:09.22 | aevin | okay, then the only solution is to invest your whole next salary into lottery tickets and hope for 1st prize. |
| 21:09.28 | Lars_G | lol |
| 21:10.03 | woglinde | buy some fic stocks |
| 21:10.04 | woglinde | hahahah |
| 21:10.35 | Lars_G | I wonder how hard it'll be to port phoneme to openmoko |
| 21:10.46 | woglinde | lars_g not so much |
| 21:11.02 | woglinde | but there are some problems with gtk as graphical backend |
| 21:11.08 | Lars_G | woglinde: yeah, it already has gtk bindings right? |
| 21:11.15 | woglinde | yeah some |
| 21:11.56 | woglinde | take look here -> http://forums.java.net/jive/thread.jspa?messageID=197519 |
| 21:12.06 | Lars_G | I will. thanks |
| 21:12.38 | *** join/#openmoko parag0n (n=parag0n@popeshoe.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 21:13.12 | Lars_G | I used to dream about porting phoneme to PalmOS but it'd be a lot of hell |
| 21:13.24 | woglinde | lol |
| 21:13.37 | woglinde | cou cant stand this pain I guess |
| 21:13.58 | LuitvD | what's phoneme? |
| 21:14.11 | Lars_G | LuitvD: Open source J2ME vm from sun |
| 21:14.20 | woglinde | gpl java for phones and stuff |
| 21:14.36 | woglinde | some build packages for n770 already |
| 21:14.37 | LuitvD | ah... useless :P |
| 21:14.41 | woglinde | no |
| 21:14.48 | LuitvD | to me it is :P |
| 21:14.49 | woglinde | you can play the java games than |
| 21:14.56 | LuitvD | who wants java games :P |
| 21:15.02 | woglinde | on the moko? |
| 21:15.04 | LuitvD | I'm sure I don't... |
| 21:15.15 | woglinde | lol |
| 21:15.22 | LuitvD | (which is impossible, i know) |
| 21:15.24 | woglinde | but there is no opensource flash yet |
| 21:16.07 | Lars_G | there is open source flash. just it's not complete |
| 21:16.12 | buz | maybe you can convince macrobe to compile linux flash for arm |
| 21:16.15 | *** join/#openmoko bkuhn (n=bkuhn@fsf/member/bkuhn/bkuhn) |
| 21:16.23 | woglinde | hm no its adobe now |
| 21:16.32 | LuitvD | buz: macrobe? |
| 21:16.33 | LuitvD | :P |
| 21:16.49 | LuitvD | buz: it ain't macromedia anymore... |
| 21:16.52 | buz | evil company + evil company = very evil company |
| 21:16.55 | woglinde | macromedia adobe |
| 21:17.38 | buz | LOOOL |
| 21:22.26 | buz | shouldnt give that much work for them really |
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| 21:50.27 | sixfeet | counter |
| 21:50.27 | aloril | P0: a week, a day 14:09:32 (-0.410 - 8.590 days); P1: 22.590 - 32.590; P2: 185.590 - 215.590 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (419) |
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| 22:09.03 | Lars_G | oh my |
| 22:09.21 | Lars_G | really LuitvD? you will buy me my Neo for free? |
| 22:09.45 | LuitvD | Lars_G: what do you mean? |
| 22:10.02 | Lars_G | that you just will gift me a neo, won't you? |
| 22:10.14 | LuitvD | nope, I won't |
| 22:10.28 | Lars_G | awww |
| 22:10.33 | Lars_G | But I was so convinced of it! |
| 22:10.40 | LuitvD | why? |
| 22:12.19 | Lars_G | oh? I just did |
| 22:22.29 | *** join/#openmoko cathal_ (n=cathal@89.100.101.244) |
| 22:26.12 | Elrond | I thought, there were some opensource flash implementatons? Is any of them useful? |
| 22:27.34 | Lars_G | They're half useful |
| 22:27.49 | Lars_G | gnash, the one with most momentum, can run all of flash 5 and some good ammount of flash 7 |
| 22:28.09 | lkcl | elrond... elrond... _the_ elrond?? |
| 22:28.15 | Elrond | lkcl - Yes! |
| 22:28.16 | Lars_G | the delay in adobe's release of flash 9 gave some momentum to gnash, but the problem is as always reverse engineering is slow and legally perilous |
| 22:28.30 | Elrond | lkcl - How did you get in without me noticing you here?! |
| 22:28.51 | lkcl | he he. sorry! |
| 22:29.25 | *** join/#openmoko john_ (n=chatzill@johnkerry.plus.com) |
| 22:29.27 | Lars_G | Elrond: I hide here. but people always seem to see me, no matter how quiet I remain |
| 22:29.44 | Elrond | Lars_G - You're not quiet currently. :) |
| 22:29.56 | Elrond | lkcl - How are you? |
| 22:30.08 | Lars_G | Elrond: See? you saw me! |
| 22:30.16 | Lars_G | lkcl: Will you buy me a neo as a gift? |
| 22:30.18 | lkcl | yeh, i'm good, dude. seriously busy at work |
| 22:30.23 | lkcl | Lars: sure. |
| 22:30.28 | lkcl | what you gonna do with it? |
| 22:30.31 | Lars_G | lkcl: If you will, my ass is yours to kick. otherwise I'll have to charge for that |
| 22:30.41 | lkcl | bennnnd over, dude :) |
| 22:30.58 | Lars_G | lkcl: The first two days, come over it. (don't worry I'll put it in a plastic bag first) |
| 22:31.15 | lkcl | euuw |
| 22:31.19 | Lars_G | the next five months, trying to get phoneme to work perfectly in it. (I'm obsessed about J2ME) |
| 22:31.33 | lkcl | oh dear. jaaavaaa |
| 22:31.39 | Lars_G | Then, do very odd code in it to solve personal needs. Tweak the UI to hell. and slowly add everything I find missing. |
| 22:31.52 | lkcl | were you on the qtopia-interest mailing list? |
| 22:32.16 | Elrond | lkcl sponsors free phones?! |
| 22:32.18 | Lars_G | Maybe try to kick in a working mplayer/ffmpeg/avifile/gstreamer engine so I can get some video love |
| 22:32.41 | Lars_G | lkcl: No i wasn't. i dropped some interest in qtopia when my iPaq with linux (and qt) was mugged from me at gunpoint |
| 22:33.19 | lkcl | i'm happy to buy one or two for people - _if_ they can justify doing something interesting (or i know damn well that they'd do interesting things with it) |
| 22:33.30 | Lars_G | lkcl: Not really dropped interest. but since I have not forced myself to save for a zaurus 5500, or an iPaq, I blocked it out to avoid the trauma of having lost it. |
| 22:33.41 | lkcl | well - if you can get myth-tv running on it then that'd be _great_ |
| 22:33.58 | lkcl | Lars_G: o dear! |
| 22:34.04 | Lars_G | lkcl: you're kind. But to be true. if I save for four months all my spare money I might buy one, so don't worry. sponsor someone else. |
| 22:34.41 | Lars_G | lkcl: Hmm personally I don't see much advantage in MythTv on the neo, but one thing I do plan to try to get to work as best as I can as soon as I have the neo is a good VNC client since I use vnc a lot for work |
| 22:35.05 | Lars_G | I want to see if I can addapt a vnc client to work with the openmokoui instead of hooking to gtk or X11 or fb |
| 22:35.07 | lkcl | Lars_G: well, i have about 8 phones i'm not using, of different kinds. a universal, a hermes, an ipaq hw6915, a greenphone, a blueangel, a himalaya, an eten g500 |
| 22:35.17 | Lars_G | YOU HAVE A GREENPHONE? |
| 22:35.19 | lkcl | i'm keeping the a780 though because it works. |
| 22:35.21 | lkcl | yeh. |
| 22:35.30 | lkcl | got one in december. |
| 22:36.02 | Lars_G | to be sincere. I mostly want a neo to liberate myself from the bonds of my current slaver, which is Sony Ericsson |
| 22:36.07 | lkcl | he he. |
| 22:36.19 | Lars_G | I am too tired of being at the mercy of vendors that force me to buy a new device to get a simple to implement feature. |
| 22:36.44 | Elrond | tihi. |
| 22:36.45 | lkcl | seriously, though: would you like to get myth-tv up-and-running on the HTC Universal? |
| 22:37.00 | Lars_G | what use do you see on myth-tv on a portable? |
| 22:37.11 | lkcl | i dunno - anything you like :) |
| 22:37.18 | lkcl | that's the point, duh :) |
| 22:37.24 | Lars_G | hahaha |
| 22:37.25 | Elrond | One of my main interests in the neo is the gps. I was considering buying a garmin thing. But garmin pisses their customers. :-( |
| 22:37.39 | Lars_G | Elrond: yeah |
| 22:37.41 | lkcl | Elrond: you want to borrow my ipaq hw6915, then? |
| 22:37.47 | lkcl | the only thing i didn't get working was suspend. |
| 22:37.59 | lkcl | the hw6915 has the same GPS chipset as the Neo. |
| 22:38.12 | Elrond | hammerhead something?! |
| 22:38.16 | Elrond | connected to uart? |
| 22:38.22 | lkcl | so other than suspend/resume, and the screen being 240x240... |
| 22:38.40 | lkcl | it's a bit more complicated than UART - but i documented the protocol, on wiki.xda-developers.com |
| 22:38.50 | lkcl | it's i2s or something. |
| 22:39.10 | *** join/#openmoko cying_ (n=cying@adsl-75-44-22-199.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) |
| 22:39.15 | Lars_G | i2c I guess. i2s is more comonly used for DACs but I can be wrong |
| 22:39.23 | cjb | Hm, is anyone hosting NAND/kernel/uboot images for the Neo? A seven-hour OE build doesn't sound like much fun. |
| 22:39.49 | Elrond | cjb - buildhost.openmoko.org doesn't have something useful? |
| 22:39.50 | lkcl | cjb: there are ways to optimise that. |
| 22:40.15 | lkcl | you can keep the cross-compiler, you can use ccache |
| 22:40.27 | Elrond | lkcl - Did you also decode the protocol, or only the hardware level connection? |
| 22:40.28 | lkcl | seven hours is only if you're silly about it. |
| 22:40.28 | Lars_G | And maybe add distcc |
| 22:40.37 | lkcl | Elrond: no we didn't decode the protocol. |
| 22:40.43 | lkcl | only the hardware level |
| 22:40.56 | Magon | when i have rootfs(finally) how to add extra package to it? |
| 22:40.58 | Elrond | "we"? |
| 22:41.00 | lkcl | http://wiki.xda-developers.com/index.php?pagename=SableGPS |
| 22:41.12 | lkcl | cr2 (#htc-linux) and i |
| 22:41.25 | lkcl | http://hands.com/~lkcl/hp6915/gps.readwrite.decode.txt |
| 22:41.31 | lkcl | SPI port. |
| 22:41.59 | Elrond | Ahh. spi is a standard on embedded stuff. |
| 22:42.00 | lkcl | the guy from globallocate.com - boaz effroni - is a FUCKING DICKHEAD |
| 22:42.21 | lkcl | he actually _banned_ my email address. |
| 22:42.21 | Lars_G | i2c and i2s are standards too. |
| 22:42.29 | Lars_G | such as 1-wire though that one is propietary |
| 22:42.45 | Elrond | Lars_G - Yep. |
| 22:42.49 | cjb | Elrond: buildhost would be useful if it had any builds newer than last October.. |
| 22:43.07 | Elrond | cjb - Huh. I assumed it has newer ones... |
| 22:43.17 | Elrond | cjb - We should ask mickeyl politely.... |
| 22:43.48 | Elrond | lkcl - So for the start one needs the agpsd from openmoko? |
| 22:43.53 | lkcl | yep. |
| 22:44.13 | lkcl | and then it's easy to reverse-engineer (black-box style) what comes in and goes out of that. |
| 22:45.03 | lkcl | i'd _love_ to tell mr boaz effroni of global locate that he really is a complete tit. he told me that "it's not necessary to reverse engineer, and we don't _need_ to tell you anything" |
| 22:45.25 | lkcl | but seriously, Elrond: do you want to borrow my hw6915? |
| 22:45.43 | lkcl | it's very similar to the Neo. |
| 22:46.37 | Elrond | lkcl - Hmm. Any url on the hw6915 hardware? |
| 22:46.55 | lkcl | i managed to get literally _everything_ going, hardware-wise, except for suspend/resume, in about 6 weeks, because the device is so similar to other HTC devices |
| 22:47.07 | lkcl | yes - http://wiki.xda-developers.com and then search for 'Sable" |
| 22:48.25 | lkcl | it has bluetooth brf 6150, wireless acx100, GPS (GL20000 + LN22), GSM/GPRS, 240x240 screen, Akai AK4641 sound codec, i even got the keyboard working, backlight, _everything_ but suspend/resume. |
| 22:48.53 | Elrond | lkcl - BTW: The problem about the reverse engeenering: It can make the thing into an ITAR "munition". That's possibly one reason (not the top, of course), why GL doesn't give details. |
| 22:49.49 | lkcl | no - if it's free software, all they have to do is send notification to the right department - *notification* not 'ask for permission' - and they're in the clear |
| 22:50.46 | Elrond | Have you read the ITAR regulations on this? |
| 22:51.05 | lkcl | no - jeremy allison did, in 1999. |
| 22:51.22 | Elrond | For encryption that is? |
| 22:51.41 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@dsl093-060-111.pit1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 22:51.49 | CoreDump|home | hi |
| 22:51.56 | lkcl | anything containing encryption algorithms, yes. |
| 22:52.31 | lkcl | free software implementations of 'munitions', he said that all you needed to do was send 'notification' to the right department. |
| 22:52.34 | Elrond | The regulations have a specific section on GPS. |
| 22:52.44 | lkcl | presumably because they can't... oh bugger. that doesn't surprise me. |
| 22:52.55 | lkcl | well, xxxxem then :) |
| 22:53.22 | lkcl | reverse-engineering and publication of the specifications... _outside_ of the stupid united states it is, then |
| 22:53.37 | Elrond | Well, _we_ do not need to care... until we take our <insert your gps toy> into the .us... ;o) |
| 22:53.50 | Elrond | Right. |
| 22:54.27 | lkcl | well, that's ok: you just delete the program, and download it again once you get off the plane ha ha :) |
| 22:54.28 | Elrond | And put big warnings before letting people download stuff. |
| 22:54.57 | Elrond | You have to delete it again when entering the plane. ;) |
| 22:55.10 | Elrond | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:55.10 | lkcl | or put it on a distributed network, and tell the us govt to piss off |
| 22:55.14 | lkcl | :) |
| 22:55.14 | Lars_G | don't forget it'd be rare for you to enter a plane with an electronic device nowadays |
| 22:55.36 | Lars_G | hmm |
| 22:55.36 | Lars_G | the HTCs look cute. are they hard to come by? expensive? |
| 22:55.50 | woglinde | lars_g which one? |
| 22:55.51 | Stephmw | Lars_G: not so rare... rare for it to be on, sure |
| 22:55.55 | woglinde | look at ebay |
| 22:55.57 | lkcl | oh yes, yes, of course. nooobody in europe carries their mobile phones, and nooobody switches them on when the plane lands |
| 22:56.01 | woglinde | they arent cheap |
| 22:56.10 | Lars_G | meh ok |
| 22:56.11 | woglinde | but cheaper as the neo |
| 22:56.17 | Stephmw | lkcl: lol |
| 22:56.30 | lkcl | :) |
| 22:56.34 | Stephmw | lkcl: number of idiots I've seen never switching their phones off |
| 22:57.04 | woglinde | sometimes I like to have a jammer |
| 22:57.21 | Stephmw | <final approach> DING, BEEP, DONG... woops, those are all the roaming SMSs |
| 22:57.33 | Elrond | On my last flight (okay, it's 1,5 years ago), I had my big digicam. ;) |
| 22:57.36 | lkcl | Lars_G: it depends. the OMAP ones (which are pieces of shit) are cheap. the older HTC phones are about $EUR 150, these days. the newer ones are about $EUR 300 to $EUR 400 |
| 22:58.03 | lkcl | Lars_G: _don't_ get an OMAP-based phone. _ever_. complete waste of time. |
| 22:58.15 | Lars_G | I think I'll save for four months abut a neo |
| 22:58.21 | Lars_G | and buy |
| 22:58.22 | lkcl | Lars_G: seriously, do you want to 'borrow' my HTC universal? |
| 22:58.39 | Lars_G | lkcl: you're a little far for me to borrow stuff off you |
| 22:58.40 | lkcl | i haven't used it for a year. |
| 22:58.59 | lkcl | Lars_G: i'm not exactly gonna get on a plane and deliver it myself, _am_ i, dude??? |
| 22:59.11 | lkcl | and i'm in holland |
| 22:59.11 | Lars_G | hahaha |
| 22:59.20 | Lars_G | no you're probably going to send it via CoD mail |
| 22:59.24 | Lars_G | and I'm in Venezuela |
| 22:59.40 | lkcl | "hi, dude, i ran all the way over here. *puff*, *puff*. ..." |
| 22:59.41 | Lars_G | What parts of the universal work? what did you use as a base? |
| 22:59.45 | Lars_G | lol |
| 22:59.55 | lkcl | talk to cr2 on #htc-linux |
| 23:00.02 | lkcl | also see these pages: |
| 23:00.38 | lkcl | if i can get my web browser to work...zzzzzz |
| 23:02.59 | Elrond | lkcl - http://wiki.xda-developers.com/index.php?pagename=Ipaq6915 looks like a lot of details work left... |
| 23:03.28 | *** join/#openmoko neclimdul (n=necro@66-100-226-234-dyndsl.oplink.net) |
| 23:04.09 | lkcl | http://wiki.xda-developers.com/index.php?pagename=SableProgress |
| 23:04.30 | *** join/#openmoko ronny_ (n=r0nny@pD9E687CB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 23:04.33 | lkcl | it looks that way - but that's a _very_ early page with lots of detauls on it. |
| 23:05.20 | lkcl | which i cut/paste to other locations, later. i was in a _really_ big hurry because i only had 3 months available to work in and i managed to do the port in 6 weeks. |
| 23:05.48 | lkcl | and then suspend/resume got in the way, and after another 8 days, i gave up - it was too much. |
| 23:06.24 | lkcl | anyway. enough! |
| 23:06.24 | lkcl | i have to stop. work tomorrow. |
| 23:07.07 | Elrond | Good night, lklc. |
| 23:07.11 | Elrond | Good night, lkcl. |
| 23:07.20 | woglinde | nite lkcl |
| 23:07.21 | lkcl | night dude. send me your address! |
| 23:07.40 | Lars_G | meh |
| 23:07.42 | Lars_G | night lkcl |
| 23:07.51 | Elrond | lkcl - Will you be around the next days? |
| 23:08.18 | lkcl | Elrond: yep. |
| 23:08.29 | lkcl | night woglide |
| 23:08.33 | lkcl | woglinde oops |
| 23:08.42 | Lars_G | see you |
| 23:09.45 | CoreDump|home | counter |
| 23:09.46 | aloril | P0: a week, a day 12:50:14 (-0.465 - 8.535 days); P1: 22.535 - 32.535; P2: 185.535 - 215.535 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (420) |
| 23:09.48 | Elrond | lkcl - Okay, will talk then. |
| 23:10.14 | woglinde | coredump *g* |
| 23:10.38 | CoreDump|home | woglinde: =D |
| 23:14.13 | Lars_G | oh bipolar is here too? |
| 23:14.21 | Lars_G | he's like god. everywhere |
| 23:14.36 | CoreDump|home | ~bipolar |
| 23:14.44 | apt | bipolar would like to be shot twice in the head, but his wife relies on him for really good sex |
| 23:14.54 | CoreDump|home | lol |
| 23:15.03 | Lars_G | ~Lars_G |
| 23:15.05 | apt | somebody said lars_g was ..... errrr... he is... aahhh.. hhuuhhh.. he is Lars_G, you'll understand. |
| 23:15.16 | Lars_G | :) |
| 23:15.26 | CoreDump|home | ~CoreDump|home |
| 23:15.36 | woglinde | lol |
| 23:15.40 | CoreDump|home | hehe |
| 23:15.47 | Lars_G | ~woglinde |
| 23:16.04 | Lars_G | And btw |
| 23:16.13 | Lars_G | you MIGHT understand. but pray you don't. |
| 23:16.19 | Lars_G | that would mean you're as fucked as I am |
| 23:18.07 | woglinde | hihi |
| 23:18.14 | woglinde | yeah I am fucked enough |
| 23:19.40 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@dsl093-060-111.pit1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 23:27.02 | Elrond | ~change 300 GBP to eur |
| 23:28.51 | Lars_G | ~change 350 USD to VEB |
| 23:29.02 | Lars_G | sigh |
| 23:30.54 | Elrond | Lars_G - add shipping. :| |
| 23:35.47 | cjb | hm. I have a debug board -- how do I charge the battery? |
| 23:37.37 | Elrond | You need the neo to charge the battery. |
| 23:38.20 | Elrond | And you don't need the debug board at all. |
| 23:38.58 | CoreDump|home | at least we hope so. this is prototype hard and software after all =) |
| 23:39.06 | CoreDump|home | s/we/I |
| 23:39.32 | cjb | Elrond: when I plug the Neo into the wall charger, it doesn't seem to charge. |
| 23:40.29 | Elrond | cjb - Is u-boot working? |
| 23:40.49 | cjb | dunno. |
| 23:41.03 | cjb | the charging circuit requires the bootloader to do something? |
| 23:41.23 | Elrond | the bootloader can be used to query the charging process. |
| 23:42.10 | Elrond | If you connect the serial console via the debug board, you should be able to see u-boot prompt, when you switch the neo on. |
| 23:42.40 | Elrond | Then: "neo1973 charger status" |
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| 23:44.52 | *** join/#openmoko msroest (n=msroest@S01060040f41dad58.cg.shawcable.net) |
| 23:44.53 | cjb | Elrond: ok! thanks. |
| 23:45.01 | Elrond | cjb - Does it work?! |
| 23:45.15 | cjb | Elrond: It looks like the software build is from 200608, so maybe I don't have the right uboot stuff. I haven't tried yet. |
| 23:46.28 | Elrond | Where did you get the neo from? |
| 23:46.44 | cjb | long story :) |
| 23:46.44 | *** join/#openmoko k-s (n=gustavo@189.12.106.224) |
| 23:47.18 | Elrond | Is there a short version? ;o) |
| 23:48.36 | Elrond | Anyway: connect the debug board and get the serial console to work. The neo should work from zsb power, even if not charged. |
| 23:50.52 | cjb | I wonder what I connect to what. the debug board has a mini-usb-b, two USB-As, and a ribbon cable that I presume is JTAG. |
| 23:51.59 | Clint | i think there's a diagram on the wiki |
| 23:52.21 | Clint | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Debug_Board |
| 23:52.30 | cjb | so I suppose I connect the mini-usb-b to a computer's A port, to power that, and then one of the other USB ports provides power and the other is for serial, or something? |
| 23:53.08 | cjb | ah. we don't have that revision of the debug board, since the jtag isn't populated on ours. |
| 23:53.20 | Elrond | cjb - http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Connecting_Neo1973_with_Debug_Board_v2 |
| 23:53.31 | Elrond | Ahh. |
| 23:53.54 | Elrond | cjb - Have you got this one: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Debug_Board_v1 |
| 23:53.55 | Elrond | ? |
| 23:54.10 | cjb | huh. no. |
| 23:54.34 | cjb | so I guess we have a v2 that happens to not have the JTAG/UART populated. |
| 23:54.38 | Elrond | So I wonder, what debug board you have... |
| 23:54.59 | cjb | oh, it's definitely the v2 in everything but the bottom pins. |
| 23:55.20 | Elrond | cjb - Then: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Connecting_Neo1973_with_Debug_Board_v2 |
| 23:57.17 | *** join/#openmoko behda1 (n=behdad@63.250.163.171) |
| 23:57.31 | cjb | Elrond: ah, I have to disassemble the phone. |
| 23:58.20 | Elrond | disassemble: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Disassembling_Neo1973 |
| 23:58.40 | cjb | yeah. |
| 23:59.02 | Elrond | Does the screen show anything when you power on? |
| 23:59.34 | cjb | yes, if I power it externally. |
| 23:59.56 | Elrond | Hmm, the newer u-boots have a serial-over-usb-console. |
