| 00:01.22 | MacNorth | yes? |
| 00:05.56 | loufoque | this quality of this video is pretty low |
| 00:06.10 | loufoque | the quality* |
| 00:06.20 | SpeedEvil | Sorry - I was coding it to get it under 100M - the original diddn't look much better at 640x480 |
| 00:07.05 | loufoque | too bad what's written on the screen is not really readable |
| 00:07.27 | SpeedEvil | You do have the 100M version, not the 66? |
| 00:07.27 | Stephmw | Video? |
| 00:07.49 | MacNorth | zomming will let you read the slides :) |
| 00:07.51 | Stephmw | SpeedEvil: you were at the presentation yersteday? |
| 00:07.54 | SpeedEvil | No. |
| 00:07.57 | Stephmw | *yesterday |
| 00:08.00 | SpeedEvil | <CoreDump|home> http://hentges.net/tmp/FOSDEM/ <- 66mb version now |
| 00:08.00 | SpeedEvil | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:08.06 | Stephmw | aha! |
| 00:08.08 | SpeedEvil | 100M/66M versions |
| 00:08.17 | loufoque | I have the big version |
| 00:08.26 | Stephmw | I'll get it at work tomorrow - might see myself on there :) |
| 00:08.28 | loufoque | 95.4 MiB |
| 00:08.53 | Stephmw | got a nice photo of mickey + neo |
| 00:09.07 | *** join/#openmoko msroest (n=msroest@S0106001839653457.cg.shawcable.net) |
| 00:09.07 | Stephmw | ... will dig it out when my camera finishes dumping the lot |
| 00:09.09 | SpeedEvil | Annoyingly I diddn't realise it was a fixed cam, as I could only d/l 30s clips. |
| 00:09.24 | SpeedEvil | Otherwise I'd have just cropped+rotated. |
| 00:12.58 | loufoque | the speech to lead to "closed source leads to predicted evolution" was pretty weird |
| 00:13.21 | SpeedEvil | Interesting buisness model. |
| 00:13.28 | *** join/#openmoko DukeOfURL (n=chatzill@vc7-1-39.dsl.netrack.net) |
| 00:14.44 | SpeedEvil | Being a really large maker of phones already, and competitive with other makers, partner in hardware to make other openmoko devices that companies want. |
| 00:14.45 | Stephmw | he was a very good speaker in person, very energetic |
| 00:14.52 | SpeedEvil | (FIC) |
| 00:23.36 | _muk_ | Unknown host anoncvs.gnome.org. |
| 00:23.37 | _muk_ | GNOME switched from CVS to Subversion. Please use http://svn.gnome.org instead of cvs.gnome.org. You will be redirected in 10 seconds |
| 00:23.42 | _muk_ | oops? |
| 00:24.23 | _muk_ | or? |
| 00:24.33 | *** join/#openmoko msroest (n=msroest@S0106001839653457.cg.shawcable.net) |
| 00:36.55 | SpeedEvil | Ok, of the talk, the only bits that will be new to people here and on the mailing list is FICs reasoning - currently they are a subcontractor selling phones to distributors (nokia). There is not much profit in this - as each phone goes to 5 companies to bid on it. Even if other companies start making hardware that runs openmoko, FIC still wins, as they are now selling to end users. Plus, they can take the phone componenets that they have already, |
| 00:37.10 | SpeedEvil | they have for existing phones for much less than someone else could order 10K. |
| 00:37.43 | SpeedEvil | And they can potentially get into other markets. |
| 00:38.13 | SpeedEvil | phase 0 - early march, phase 1 - late march |
| 00:38.21 | SpeedEvil | phase 2 - 6 months on. |
| 00:38.58 | vmaster | i only watched the first 5 minutes and then the questions at the end - were the other 40 minutes as much marketing as the first? |
| 00:39.17 | SpeedEvil | No - the middle was rather better than the first few minutes. |
| 00:39.38 | vmaster | heh, thanks, then i'll have to watch the rest of it, too |
| 00:39.44 | SpeedEvil | However, there was little that someone that had read most of the wiki and mailing list diddn't know. |
| 00:39.52 | SpeedEvil | But it brings some of it into clearer focus. |
| 00:40.31 | vmaster | so the middle part is a nice wrap up of all the things i don't know - cool |
| 00:40.46 | SpeedEvil | In that case, it's definately worth a look - though it would be nice if a decent shot of the screen turned up. |
| 00:40.54 | SpeedEvil | As little of the text is readable. |
| 00:41.07 | vmaster | it's all about being open, would be nice if the slides were available |
| 00:41.21 | vmaster | but that can be arranged, i guess/hope |
| 00:41.40 | SpeedEvil | Many of them are on teh wiki. |
| 00:41.58 | SpeedEvil | None of them are important. |
| 00:46.29 | Stephmw | I can't wait to see some designers play with some sleeker designs for the Neo V2 |
| 00:46.39 | SpeedEvil | It's been said that they won't be phones in the traditional sense,. |
| 00:47.58 | SpeedEvil | Has anyone actually youtubed it, I don't see it. |
| 00:50.10 | MacNorth | or maybe, does anyone have a directors' account? |
| 00:50.11 | denis^da | I will the problem is that there is a limit of 10 minutes |
| 00:50.18 | denis^da | I have to cut it into pieces |
| 00:52.08 | MacNorth | archive.org ;) |
| 00:57.44 | SpeedEvil | Currently uploading the small one to video.google.com |
| 01:04.04 | DesktopMa | would be kinda nice if mokomakefile checked for all requirements before starting |
| 01:04.12 | DesktopMa | so it doesn't halt during it's run |
| 01:05.56 | CoreDump|home | !praise Dr. mickey|fosdem07 |
| 01:06.19 | DesktopMa | which of the presentations? |
| 01:06.23 | *** join/#openmoko hads (n=hads@reef80.anchor.net.au) |
| 01:06.36 | hads | counter |
| 01:06.36 | aloril | P0: 3 days 10:53:23 (-2.546 - 3.454 days); P1: 19.454 - 34.454; P2: 187.454 - 217.454 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (403) |
| 01:08.10 | CoreDump|home | DesktopMa: the openmoko one of course heh |
| 01:08.57 | rwhitby | 512MB SD card included |
| 01:09.02 | CoreDump|home | rwhitby: indeed |
| 01:09.11 | DesktopMa | none of the files say openmoko :P |
| 01:09.11 | *** join/#openmoko sonokie (n=eikonos@S01060020ed569ad7.gv.shawcable.net) |
| 01:09.11 | CoreDump|home | should be enough for hacking |
| 01:09.29 | CoreDump|home | DesktopMa: http://hentges.net/tmp/FOSDEM/ |
| 01:09.43 | SpeedEvil | Oh the expense! |
| 01:09.52 | DesktopMa | ah different hosts. thanks |
| 01:10.11 | SpeedEvil | Seriouslyt, I'm planning on ripping apart the reader, and adding a battery. |
| 01:10.11 | CoreDump|home | DesktopMa: what's the other host? |
| 01:10.31 | DesktopMa | http://ftp.belnet.be/mirrors/FOSDEM/2007/ |
| 01:10.34 | DesktopMa | I just noticed that url |
| 01:10.35 | CoreDump|home | SpeedEvil: what for? most readers are USB powered anyway |
| 01:10.45 | Stephmw | So... anyone wanna see a photo of Mikey holding up a Neo? |
| 01:10.54 | rwhitby | yep |
| 01:10.57 | CoreDump|home | yep |
| 01:10.59 | SpeedEvil | Thge neo has no power. |
| 01:11.08 | SpeedEvil | Is it naked? |
| 01:11.20 | SpeedEvil | Or does it have sexy case on :) |
| 01:11.22 | DesktopMa | powered usb and edge/3g/umts would own :) neo v2 |
| 01:11.49 | CoreDump|home | btw, seans remark about the v2 features rocked |
| 01:12.45 | rwhitby | heh - FUD from the trolltech guy interjecting into the talk at 29 minutes in. |
| 01:12.50 | CoreDump|home | "it will have X, Y and Z........and the other thing everyone keeps asking about" =D |
| 01:13.23 | CoreDump|home | rwhitby: that wasn't FUD actually. Sounded like a genuine question about a valid concern |
| 01:13.50 | SpeedEvil | Annoyingly, many of the questionaers are utterlyu inaudible. |
| 01:14.01 | Stephmw | .. gotta figure out how to upload an image, there we go.. |
| 01:14.03 | Stephmw | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User_talk:Stephmw |
| 01:14.07 | CoreDump|home | yeah :\ |
| 01:14.32 | Stephmw | I didn't see a 'photos' page, so I'll leave it in my talk area for now |
| 01:14.44 | rwhitby | CoreDump|home: the timing of the question (i.e. in the middle of the talk, not at question time) said to me that he was trying to make a political point. |
| 01:15.02 | loufoque | Stephmw: would you be one of the guys that were at FOSDEM? |
| 01:15.03 | CoreDump|home | rwhitby: maybe he was =) |
| 01:15.04 | rwhitby | but I wasn't there, so I could be completely off-base |
| 01:16.00 | Stephmw | loufoque: yup, got about 3gb of photos from the two days |
| 01:16.00 | Stephmw | loufoque: very few of the moko event though |
| 01:16.00 | CoreDump|home | Stephmw: =D |
| 01:16.01 | Stephmw | that room was _dark_ and overcrowded |
| 01:16.34 | Stephmw | like TT, FIC didn't appear to have anticipated the interest |
| 01:16.44 | loufoque | Stephmw: are the slides of your talk available somewhere? |
| 01:16.44 | Stephmw | .. or maybe the overcrowding was a merketing ploy *shrug* |
| 01:16.51 | Stephmw | loufoque: oh, I didn't do a talk |
| 01:16.55 | SpeedEvil | That's what flash is there for, silly :) |
| 01:17.05 | Stephmw | meh, Flash is overrated |
| 01:17.31 | Stephmw | loufoque: I was just there to enjoy it and take photos |
| 01:17.42 | Stephmw | loufoque: mostly went there for the Java-related stuff |
| 01:18.59 | *** join/#openmoko gambler (n=orion@203-206-59-67.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 01:19.31 | loufoque | is there a jvm for openmoko by the way? |
| 01:20.28 | Stephmw | just needs someone to try it, and hook it up to the moko widget lib |
| 01:21.02 | Stephmw | anyhow, time for me to catch some sleep, Fosdem doesn't give you enough :D |
| 01:21.40 | loufoque | #openmko ? |
| 01:21.59 | loufoque | there is an 'o' missing |
| 01:22.54 | CoreDump|home | fixed ;) |
| 01:33.14 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03jiang_li * r1126 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-simplemediaplayer/beep/ (9 files): This commit just aims to eliminate warning message |
| 01:34.40 | CoreDump|home | hmm |
| 01:35.01 | rwhitby | new committer :-) |
| 01:36.48 | CoreDump|home | yep =) |
| 01:37.33 | CoreDump|home | rwhitby: what was the date sean mentioned about P0? |
| 01:37.59 | SpeedEvil | EArly march |
| 01:38.12 | SpeedEvil | late march for P1 |
| 01:38.17 | SpeedEvil | 6 months on for P2 |
| 01:39.12 | cbpage | i wonder how the P0 phones are coming along |
| 01:39.44 | CoreDump|home | SpeedEvil: thanks |
| 01:41.32 | loufoque | counter? |
| 01:41.33 | aloril | source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; 3 days 10:18:27 (-2.571 - 3.429 days) for devices for selected developers (2007-02-28); a month, 3 days (19.429 - 34.429 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-31); 7 months, 3 days (187.429 - 217.429 days) for mass market (2007-09-30): see topic for more info (404) |
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| 01:57.23 | SpeedEvil | yay - video.google.com is processing the 66M video. |
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| 01:59.39 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03jiang_li * r1127 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-simplemediaplayer/mkinstalldirs: This commit try to solve the problem we face when we compile the the mediaplayer. |
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| 02:40.49 | sixfeet | n8 |
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| 03:00.57 | aloril | based on 2007-02-26 02:38:13 <SpeedEvil> phase 0 - early march, phase 1 - late march |
| 03:01.06 | aloril | which is based on Sean talk |
| 03:01.13 | aloril | at FOSDEM |
| 03:01.19 | aloril | counter? |
| 03:01.19 | aloril | source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; a week, 3 days 08:58:40 (1.374 - 10.374 days) for devices for selected developers (2007-03-07); a month, 3 days (24.374 - 34.374 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-31); 7 months, 3 days (187.374 - 217.374 days) for mass market (2007-09-30): see topic for more info (405) |
| 03:03.31 | noidd | thats good to know |
| 03:03.32 | noidd | thanks man |
| 03:04.15 | aloril | doesn't sound big delay |
| 03:06.41 | loft306 | heh |
| 03:07.16 | aloril | (lower limit for P0 should be when March starts on Earth ;-) |
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| 03:15.29 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03werner * r1128 10/developers/werner/TODO: Feb 25 update |
| 03:16.10 | SpeedEvil | Sigh. |
| 03:16.24 | SpeedEvil | video.google.com is still 'processing' that video. |
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| 03:24.02 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03laforge * r1129 10/trunk/src/host/dfu-util/src/main.c: * if status is bad, retry |
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| 03:40.59 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03laforge * r1130 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/ (uboot-dfu.patch uboot-s3c2410_udc.patch): |
| 03:40.59 | CIA-7 | openmoko: * major re-write of EP0 handler and state machine of u-boot S3C2410 UDC driver, to |
| 03:40.59 | CIA-7 | openmoko: ** correctly cope with endpoint size of 16 bytes, which results in faster transfers |
| 03:40.59 | CIA-7 | openmoko: ** use lowercase hex digits in 'filesize' parameter of DFU-to-RAM upload |
| 03:41.00 | CIA-7 | openmoko: * enable 16bytes control pipe size |
| 03:41.03 | CIA-7 | openmoko: * make DFU correctly deal with 'set configuration' messages |
| 03:58.09 | *** join/#openmoko eupham (n=eupham@130-127-79-31.calhoun.resnet.clemson.edu) |
| 04:01.44 | chihchun | cool |
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| 04:21.53 | abstrakraft | rwhitby: having a problem downloading gtkhtml2 cvs - apparently upstream switched to SVN, CVS is no longer current, and accessible only through ssh. Have you already run into this? |
| 04:34.20 | rwhitby | abstrakraft: nope |
| 04:35.00 | rwhitby | see if the cvs tarball is available in the openmoko src tarball stash |
| 04:41.34 | abstrakraft | rwhitby: where would that be? |
| 04:45.33 | rwhitby | http://downloads.openmoko.org/sources/ |
| 04:46.31 | rwhitby | e.g. http://downloads.openmoko.org/sources/gtkhtml2_anoncvs.gnome.org__20060717.tar.gz |
| 04:47.32 | abstrakraft | thanks - good to know |
| 04:47.49 | rwhitby | on my todo list is getting OE to look there automatically. |
| 04:49.14 | [g2] | rwhitby do you run vmware at all ? |
| 04:49.18 | [g2] | vmplayer |
| 04:49.36 | rwhitby | [g2]: I do *all* my linux development inside vmware |
| 04:50.46 | [g2] | has there been any thought about a vmware ubuntu/openmoko/oe setup ? |
| 04:51.11 | [g2] | basically, a full-on pre-rolled, just boot and upgrade kinda thing |
| 04:51.11 | rwhitby | yes, robtaylor was talking about doing that. |
| 04:51.41 | rwhitby | but if you want to beat him to it, that would be fine too :-) Have you got the nslu2/loft vmware image done yet? |
| 04:51.41 | [g2] | one of the guys did that for the OSD (neuros) |
| 04:52.00 | [g2] | except it's scratchbox |
| 04:54.12 | rwhitby | [g2]: create a vmware image, which has openmoko-devel-image *already* *built* in it. That's the killer app which saves you 7 hours time. |
| 04:54.29 | *** join/#openmoko bluelightning (n=blueligh@125-237-65-118.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) |
| 04:54.37 | [g2] | rwhitby yeah that's what I'm talking about |
| 04:54.51 | rwhitby | (oh, and you need to keep that image up to date automatically, so that when you download it from your site, it always has the latest version already built) |
| 04:54.59 | [g2] | not only a 1-time build, but the update too |
| 04:55.29 | rwhitby | [g2]: I'd say "Just Do It" :-) When will you have it ready? |
| 04:56.17 | [g2] | my mac mini have the hw support for para-virt |
| 04:56.45 | [g2] | the other option is to get a process that supports native/binary virt |
| 04:56.57 | [g2] | then it'd just be a "normal" distro |
| 04:57.26 | abstrakraft | can't say I have any interest in vmware, but I'd be interested in maintaining/helping maintain a tarball to be included in the vmware image, as well as made available by itself |
| 04:57.35 | [g2] | since I don't have a phone, it's really a need to be ready by late March thing |
| 04:58.10 | [g2] | abstrakraft thx for the offer |
| 04:58.26 | rwhitby | abstrakraft: someone should be able to continuously run mokomakefile inside a pristine vmware image, and then just snapshot it nightly. |
| 04:59.38 | [g2] | rwhitby we should just snapshot the working versions of the builds |
| 05:00.29 | abstrakraft | is there anything to prevent the vmware generated build from being tarballed and used in native Linux. I'm not aware of anything distro-specific inside the build dir, although I'm still learning the layout |
| 05:00.44 | [g2] | rwhitby actually, imho it should go further and boot the image on the phone |
| 05:01.14 | *** join/#openmoko gyaresu (n=gyaresu@124.243.158.56) |
| 05:02.45 | abstrakraft | g2: I agree - building HEADs is frustrating - snapshot the combinations that work |
| 05:02.57 | abstrakraft | s/combinations/revisions |
| 05:03.47 | [g2] | abstrakraft or actually, there should be API level for the upper layer application devs |
| 05:04.01 | [g2] | those may be updated say every 2 weeks or something |
| 05:04.10 | [g2] | or maybe once a month |
| 05:07.04 | abstrakraft | you'd only need to download the snapshot once, update from within after that - the app guys just wouldn't need to update as often |
| 05:09.13 | abstrakraft | why Ubuntu? user-friendly? |
| 05:10.09 | rwhitby | robtaylor had decided on debian edge. |
| 05:10.48 | rwhitby | it should just be whatever the core team has decided to standardise on, to minimise the risk of incompatibilities giving false errors and wasting time. |
| 05:10.58 | aloril | buz had right idea, maybe he was joking though: way to use 2 sims at same time: |
| 05:11.36 | abstrakraft | fair enough - is that Debian Edge? |
| 05:11.59 | aloril | just buy 2 Neo1973, put separate SIMs inside them, then keep one of them in pocket and use only one of them for actually calling/answering: use bluetooth to network them together |
| 05:12.29 | aloril | when you talk either it works directly on phone in your hand as usual or |
| 05:13.08 | jebba | ping Kero, what's up? |
| 05:13.09 | aloril | when you have call for SIM that is in side phone that is in pocket, then use bluetooth to transmit voice to/from it from/to Neo1973 in your hand |
| 05:13.44 | aloril | this also gives possibility to have net (GRPS) and voice (GSM) at same time |
| 05:14.02 | rwhitby | aloril: *and* it sells more neo's too :-) |
| 05:14.18 | abstrakraft | aloril: better yet - use the Neo1973 to emulate a bluetooth headset, and it works with any bluetooth capable phone |
| 05:14.20 | aloril | also this way you could get wifi too without dangling wires! |
| 05:14.51 | aloril | well.. dangling wires, but inside pocket inside some extra size case |
| 05:17.44 | aloril | abstrakraft: yeah, but then you might need to use that other phone to do actual dialing, with 2 Neo's you can use just one phone and forget existence of the other (except for charging) |
| 05:18.33 | abstrakraft | good point.....there aren't any devices out there for remote dialing? |
| 05:18.51 | *** join/#openmoko behdad (n=behdad@CPE000fb55e466d-CM0012c9c84bc4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 05:19.19 | aloril | just select SIM when dialing from one device |
| 05:19.58 | aloril | (or have 3 Neo's and 3 SIM's ;-) |
| 05:19.58 | abstrakraft | I get what you're saying, I'm still trying to work the kink in the headset emulation version of the idea |
| 05:20.01 | aloril | anyway, this is linux, so more than 1 device is natural for it |
| 05:22.13 | abstrakraft | I wonder if there's any advantage to multiple Neo-coordinated sims on either side - redundance, higher bandwidth, better voide quality, etc. |
| 05:22.26 | abstrakraft | s/voide/voice |
| 05:23.16 | abstrakraft | seems more a novelty than a practical application, but an interesting one |
| 05:24.27 | aloril | 1) simultaneus net+voice 2) 2 SIMs active at same time 3) wifi without dangling bits from device in you hand |
| 05:24.54 | *** join/#openmoko Marex (n=Marex@85.132.236.161) |
| 05:24.55 | aloril | (1 and 3 can be gotten with better device though) |
| 05:26.15 | abstrakraft | rwhitby: in reference to my earlier comment, except for differences in native compiler versions, are there any distro or native environment-specific bits left in the build directory? |
| 05:26.30 | rwhitby | abstrakraft: dunno |
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| 05:58.31 | aevin | thanks for sharing it, SpeedEvil and rwhitby :) |
| 05:59.19 | friedel | aevin: Hi! URL? |
| 06:00.07 | rwhitby | http://hentges.net/tmp/FOSDEM/ |
| 06:00.48 | friedel | rwhitby: Thanks! Are both the same video, just different size? |
| 06:00.53 | rwhitby | yep |
| 06:03.03 | aevin | if you choose the largest one you're able to read most of the text (not all), i don't think you'll be able to do that with the 66 MB version |
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| 06:07.34 | rd_ | rwhitby, thanks for video :) |
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| 06:09.41 | CM | rwhitby: Do I have to manually sync something with the makefile? |
| 06:09.50 | CM | I get this error: http://pastebin.ca/372645 |
| 06:10.11 | CM | That's when running "make update-makefile ; make setup" |
| 06:11.09 | rwhitby | type make update then make setup |
| 06:11.17 | rwhitby | (cause you need to update the openmoko svn repo too) |
| 06:11.27 | CM | Thanks :) |
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| 06:29.24 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03zhiyong_sun * r1131 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-mainmenu/src/ (main.c mainmenu.c mokodesktop.h): matchbox vfolder patch change: /usr/share/matchbox |
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| 06:44.47 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03jiang_li * r1132 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-simplemediaplayer/beep/ (Makefile.am bmp.desktop.in): This commit change the app name from "openmoko-media-player" to "openmoko-simple-media-player" and adjust the desktop file to this change. |
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| 07:25.24 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03werner * r1133 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/boot-menu.patch: |
| 07:25.25 | CIA-7 | openmoko: u-boot/board/neo1973/bootmenu.c (bootmenu): return and power-off if "Boot" |
| 07:25.25 | CIA-7 | openmoko: command fails |
| 07:25.25 | CIA-7 | openmoko: u-boot/board/neo1973/neo1973.c: removed setting of "nobootdelay" |
| 07:25.25 | CIA-7 | openmoko: u-boot/board/neo1973/neo1973.c (board_late_init): enter the boot menu when |
| 07:25.25 | CIA-7 | openmoko: "AUX" was pressed at least half the time |
| 07:25.29 | CIA-7 | openmoko: u-boot/board/neo1973/neo1973.c (board_late_init): minor code cleanup |
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| 07:44.54 | Hadaka | hi! what's the scripting language of choice on the openmoko platform? eg. what's the language to use if you don't want to code C? |
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| 07:59.42 | aloril | Hadaka: current image doesn't seem to have either Python or Perl, but you can install any of course |
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| 08:18.37 | tigert | are there bindings? |
| 08:18.49 | Magon | does anyone know why bitbake openmoko-deve-image havent builded any image, just ipk files?? |
| 08:19.28 | rwhitby | did you look in build/tmp/deploy/images? |
| 08:20.30 | Magon | tmp/deploy have just ipk |
| 08:21.13 | Magon | it have no foldef images... |
| 08:21.36 | Magon | it had when i have builded with uboot, but there was just u-boot images |
| 08:21.45 | rwhitby | mokomakefile builds a kernel, modules.tar.gz and rootfs.jffs2,ext2.gz,tar,gz ... |
| 08:22.01 | Magon | i am missing the rootfs.* |
| 08:22.10 | rwhitby | (and it just runs bitbake openmoko-devel-image ...) |
| 08:22.41 | rwhitby | pastebin your log.do_rootfs if you want us to debug further |
| 08:23.27 | Magon | where is one? |
| 08:23.43 | rwhitby | have you run "find" to find it? |
| 08:24.04 | Magon | find ./ -iname '*rootfs*' |
| 08:24.26 | Magon | in folder containing org.openembedded.dev |
| 08:24.29 | Magon | and tmp/ |
| 08:24.35 | Magon | and openmoko svn shure |
| 08:24.54 | Magon | but wait a sec..found problem with fin |
| 08:24.55 | Magon | d |
| 08:25.36 | rwhitby | mine is in build/tmp/work/fic-gta01-linux/openmoko-devel-image-1.0-r0/temp/log.do_rootfs.8032 |
| 08:25.36 | rwhitby | <PROTECTED> |
| 08:25.48 | rwhitby | yours will differ (which is why I suggested you use find) |
| 08:26.16 | Magon | scanning whole OE tree for rootfs string |
| 08:26.58 | Magon | and this is third time i builded that tree..no time it had rootfs |
| 08:27.47 | Magon | do_rootfs missing |
| 08:27.49 | Magon | why?? |
| 08:28.21 | Magon | i have an idea |
| 08:29.02 | Magon | gpe-image have at the end inherit image, openmoko-image have inherit image_ipk...can that be a problem? |
| 08:34.04 | rwhitby | Are you using MokoMakefile to build? |
| 08:34.16 | Magon | no.. |
| 08:34.26 | Magon | but i have looked througth mokomakefile |
| 08:34.35 | Magon | and there is nothing special in it |
| 08:34.40 | rwhitby | then I have no idea how your OE/openmoko/bitbake environment is set up |
| 08:34.46 | Magon | i mostly did made the changes by myself |
| 08:34.59 | rwhitby | the special bit is that it sets up one's environment in a known state, which means that others can replicate results easily. |
| 08:35.08 | rwhitby | I can't replicate your results, so I can't help you. |
| 08:35.28 | Magon | i know..probably will try to use that |
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| 08:36.11 | rwhitby | that's the main reason why I suggest people use it. There's nothing magic about it otherwise. |
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| 08:40.54 | Magon | have my problem |
| 08:41.04 | Magon | and mokofile woudnt solve that |
| 08:41.19 | Magon | i want to compile it for my machine |
| 08:41.50 | Magon | so i used machine=x86 |
| 08:42.18 | Magon | but some packages were made in work/x86-linux and some in work/i486-linux |
| 08:44.01 | CM | For me the mokomakefile fails on updating the kernel from svn :/ |
| 08:44.20 | rwhitby | CM: yeah, we can't control upstream |
| 08:44.38 | CM | I know, I'll wait until it works. |
| 08:44.39 | Magon | ok problem..the rootfs have hardly anything in it :-( |
| 08:44.50 | CM | Never seen "svn: REPORT request failed on '/!svn/vcc/default'" before though |
| 08:45.09 | _muk_ | what's up with mokomakefile and gnome CVS? anoncvs.gnome.org does not exist anymore. |
| 08:45.30 | _muk_ | have anyone changed it to use SVN or should I give it a try? |
| 08:45.37 | CM | _muk_: According to the mailinglist, changing SRC_IRI to svn://svn.gnome.org/svn/;module=gtkhtml2 solved that |
| 08:45.54 | CM | For gtkhtml2 that is |
| 08:46.01 | _muk_ | ok, has it been committed in svn? |
| 08:46.17 | _muk_ | seems to be a bunch of modules that use anoncvs.gnome.org |
| 08:47.17 | _muk_ | AFAICT there are 8 packages |
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| 08:48.59 | rwhitby | CM: just testing the tarball stash fix now ... |
| 08:50.48 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03rwhitby * r18 10mokomakefile/trunk/patches/openmoko-HEAD/ (series tarball-stash.patch): Added downloads.openmoko.org/sources as CVS_TARBALL_STASH for openmoko |
| 08:50.48 | rwhitby | ok, there it is. |
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| 08:51.41 | _muk_ | Gah, the weather just sucks... 1 degree C and it is snowing :-( |
| 08:51.53 | rwhitby | as usual, "make update" to get and apply the new patchset. |
| 08:52.06 | _muk_ | rwhitby: updating now |
| 08:53.27 | CM | rwhitby: Thanks for all your relentless work :) |
| 08:53.58 | Magon | rwhitby: http://www.ms.mff.cuni.cz/~kupem6am/log.do_rootfs.6148 |
| 08:54.35 | Magon | it does go througth all control.tar.gz, but actually does unpack nearly no files |
| 08:55.06 | rwhitby | http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=214 |
| 08:58.14 | Magon | rwhitby: do you have any hint why it is so? |
| 08:58.26 | rwhitby | Magon: nope |
| 09:01.07 | Magon | rwhitby: does build for x86 using mokomakefile work? |
| 09:02.21 | rwhitby | Magon: the line in your pastebin which has "+ '[' '!' -z ' ipkg ipkg-collateral' ']'" in it, has lots of task-openmoko-* entries in it in a normal build. |
| 09:03.48 | rwhitby | so the problem is that when building for x86, IPKG_INSTALL is not being set properly. |
| 09:04.02 | rwhitby | your guess is as good as mine as to why that is happening. |
| 09:04.27 | Magon | ok..i have no experiences with OE..i used scratchbox before |
| 09:11.30 | rwhitby | you might want to wait until the OE core team guys get back from FOSDEM then ... |
| 09:12.13 | Magon | probably |
| 09:12.22 | Magon | i am digging in it |
| 09:12.31 | Magon | and have been whole weekend |
| 09:12.52 | Magon | main problem is inherit image_ipk |
| 09:13.09 | Magon | it doesnt build rootfs at all with that..i had to change it to image |
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| 09:13.44 | Magon | can you pls look at your openmoko/trunk/oe/packages/images/openmoko-image.bb |
| 09:13.52 | Magon | there is at the end inherit..what you have? |
| 09:15.15 | rwhitby | image_ipk |
| 09:15.31 | Magon | ok..so i am missing something ales somewhere else |
| 09:15.51 | Magon | i had to change it to image in order to get at least start do_rootfs |
| 09:16.59 | rwhitby | I suspect it's simply not designed to build on x86, and something needs to be changed somewhere, rather than something being wrong in your usage or build environment. |
| 09:17.23 | Magon | proble is that even for fic-gta01 machine it doesnt build |
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| 09:18.17 | rwhitby | ah, well MokoMakefile definitely builds for fic-gta01 and qemuarm machines. |
| 09:18.50 | Magon | ok..going to make diff |
| 09:19.06 | Magon | i have main diff...i am at head :-) |
| 09:19.15 | rwhitby | meanwhile, I'll kick off an x86 build |
| 09:19.46 | rwhitby | head of openmoko or head of openembedded? |
| 09:19.48 | Magon | since i doesnt have phone..building for x86 is good idea |
| 09:19.52 | Magon | both |
| 09:20.04 | rwhitby | (MokoMakefile builds openmoko head, but uses frozen openembedded on advice from mickey|fosdem07) |
| 09:20.31 | rwhitby | (since that is what the core team uses) |
| 09:21.17 | Magon | ok |
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| 09:35.59 | robtaylor | rwhitby: well, its even stevens on edge or feisty/edgy. it doesnt really matter, tbh |
| 09:45.31 | Magon | building OE with Mokofile |
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| 10:01.26 | rwhitby | robtaylor: nod - I'm easy either way. |
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| 10:10.57 | Magon | :-) |
| 10:11.39 | rwhitby | heh - it won't be the last time ... |
| 10:12.11 | buz | what kind of company wont respond to people wanting to buy stuff from them |
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| 10:13.10 | buz | especially when they say they want to develop stuff for the phones thus furthering their platform |
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| 10:17.04 | aloril | buz: what about sending initial image of encrypted volume, then keep image of that locally, then update another image, send some kind of binary diff encrypted |
| 10:17.26 | buz | i thought about that |
| 10:17.27 | aloril | and at some point do rsync of whole encrypted volume |
| 10:17.32 | buz | but it seems easier to simply rsync it |
| 10:17.35 | aloril | (to reduce amount of diffs) |
| 10:17.44 | buz | if you gonna deal with images at all |
| 10:18.03 | aloril | yeah, rsync is easier of course, but diff is probably much faster if you want to do it daily |
| 10:18.06 | buz | but i think i'll just send whole file based diffs |
| 10:18.09 | buz | i doubt it |
| 10:18.20 | buz | rsync is highly efficient at what it does |
| 10:18.45 | buz | and diff was never really fast in my view |
| 10:19.01 | aloril | well.. if you do diff you only do actual differences, but with image you have 1024 byte blocks or something like that instead of few bytes in worst case |
| 10:19.24 | buz | well most time will be spent reading the whole image figuring out what actually changed |
| 10:19.28 | buz | a journal would help |
| 10:19.41 | buz | but there is not really any sane journalling fs that can do that for linux |
| 10:20.06 | buz | duplicity essentially does something like that |
| 10:20.11 | buz | but it doesnt really work reliably |
| 10:20.21 | Magon | btw...when i manage to get enviroment, what is good idea to start hacking? |
| 10:20.21 | aloril | didn't find in rsync any option to dump needed changes though |
| 10:20.27 | Magon | bugfixing? |
| 10:20.30 | buz | librsync can do that |
| 10:20.42 | buz | i think there's a batch mode in rsync, too |
| 10:21.03 | aloril | that should be faster than doing rsync of whole encrypted volume |
| 10:21.05 | buz | mhh thinking of it maybe that batchmode is actually quite useful |
| 10:21.40 | aloril | maybe use batchmode for daily changes and rsync of whole volume once / month |
| 10:21.52 | buz | still means you need two entire trees on the client |
| 10:22.14 | buz | if you have that, it's quite trivial |
| 10:22.18 | aloril | well.. microSD size is quite small compared to hard disk sizes ;-) |
| 10:23.18 | buz | yeah but i want to use the same thing on my desktop ;) |
| 10:24.48 | aloril | ah, hehe |
| 10:25.02 | aloril | well.. consider another copy as backup |
| 10:25.13 | buz | usually i would |
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| 10:25.20 | buz | but on a laptop its kinda pointless if its on the same drive |
| 10:25.31 | aloril | run it twice: 1) to generate rsync diff which you encrypt end send |
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| 10:25.47 | aloril | ummm.. only once actually, just use this diff to update backup |
| 10:25.55 | buz | i was about to say ;) |
| 10:26.02 | buz | you can even run it and let it apply the diff at the same time |
| 10:26.29 | buz | or maybe i should dig into duplicity code and fix it |
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| 10:29.14 | buz | Unlike most diff programs, librsync does not require access to both of the files when the diff is computed. Computing a delta requires just a short "signature" of the old file and the complete contents of the new file. The signature contains checksums for blocks of the old file. Using these checksums, rdiff finds matching blocks in the new file, and then computes the delta. |
| 10:29.20 | buz | i think that is how duplicity actually works |
| 10:29.33 | buz | and by any means the most efficient way to do it |
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| 11:36.04 | denis^da | http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=-3742589179435830945&q=Openmoko <- add some tags if there are missing ones |
| 11:36.25 | denis^da | has someone here a directors account for youtube ? |
| 11:47.04 | aloril | interesting if same person: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-February/003751.html http://www.fic.com.tw/about.htm |
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| 11:55.44 | madwoota | why wouldnt it be ? |
| 11:56.04 | CoreDump|afk | aloril: interesting indeed |
| 12:01.26 | aloril | madwoota: common name? |
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| 12:20.00 | SpeedEvil | Aha - someone saw the FOSdem talk video complete on google. I went to bed while it was still processing. :) |
| 12:20.00 | DesktopMa | hmm compile failed on makekeys.c |
| 12:20.00 | DesktopMa | I'm missing libs ;) |
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| 12:20.08 | madwoota | emerge -uD world ! |
| 12:20.08 | madwoota | er, wait, wrong distro :P |
| 12:20.21 | DesktopMa | :P |
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| 12:21.09 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 12:21.26 | rwhitby | thx SpeedEvil for all your work in getting it there. |
| 12:21.45 | SpeedEvil | I'm surprised with all the computing power of google, that it took so long to 'process'. |
| 12:22.25 | SpeedEvil | When did it appear? |
| 12:22.42 | rwhitby | My understanding is they have a small set of humans who review each contribution to make sure that goatse doesn't get in there ... |
| 12:23.22 | aloril | s/OpenMoko/thinks OpenMoko/ |
| 12:23.50 | SpeedEvil | Aha - they missed the one I stuck in at frame #48532 then :) |
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| 12:26.49 | Hadaka | well, there's probably going to be plenty of applications on the openmoko that would benefit from some sort of scripting ability |
| 12:27.41 | Hadaka | and it'd probably be helpful for performance to have just one or two interpreters there, instead of everybody using whatever... |
| 12:28.08 | rwhitby | ah, but who decides which? |
| 12:28.21 | aloril | rwhitby: hehe |
| 12:28.26 | DesktopMa | the first guy who releases something awesome, I bet |
| 12:28.28 | DesktopMa | :) |
| 12:29.04 | rwhitby | OE already has more scripting languages in it already, that already compile for the Neo, than you have space for on a 2GB microSD card ... |
| 12:29.23 | aloril | it might be just that at the moment its low priority compared to getting basic functionality working |
| 12:30.49 | Hadaka | hmmh, I wonder which would be most suitable - I don't really care if it's Java or Haskell or C# or whatever |
| 12:30.50 | aloril | rwhitby: yeah, but I think bindings for OpenMoko additions would be needed for default inclusion (again, definitely post P0 thing and also maybe post P1 thing) |
| 12:31.17 | madwoota | whats wrong with /bin/sh ? :) |
| 12:31.35 | rwhitby | aloril: yes, the openmoko specific bindings will decide which language wins the natural selection ... |
| 12:31.53 | Hadaka | madwoota: embedding /bin/sh and doing GUI's with it doesn't sound too reasonable |
| 12:31.54 | rwhitby | (combined with choice of scripting language made by killer application authors) |
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| 12:32.48 | Hadaka | I wonder if python is a decent option hardware wise - it's a bit big I guess, but is it going to be slow, too? |
| 12:33.15 | madwoota | you dismiss a 20k shell in favour or a 10meg language ? |
| 12:33.28 | Hadaka | madwoota: did you read my argument? |
| 12:33.29 | rwhitby | I vote for elisp ;-) |
| 12:33.45 | Hadaka | rwhitby: librep wouldn't be too bad size wise |
| 12:34.14 | madwoota | obviously sarcasm doesnt convey very well here |
| 12:34.22 | Hadaka | perhaps :) |
| 12:34.57 | buz | night |
| 12:35.15 | Hadaka | nitey |
| 12:36.18 | Hadaka | how is the dialing/call control stuff controlled? which daemon handles that and does it have a dbus api? |
| 12:36.38 | SpeedEvil | gpsd |
| 12:36.41 | SpeedEvil | eerr |
| 12:36.43 | SpeedEvil | gsmd |
| 12:36.54 | DesktopMa | hmm looks like it tries to compile using x64 headers |
| 12:37.31 | Hadaka | is the dialer gui in gsmd (I hope not)? how does the dialer gui communicate to gsmd? |
| 12:38.56 | Elrond | Hadaka - Use libgsmd to talk to gsmd. |
| 12:39.29 | Hadaka | Elrond: ah, okay |
| 12:40.10 | aloril | stripped down python is not that big |
| 12:40.17 | SpeedEvil | How big? |
| 12:50.37 | Hadaka | hmmh, I guess it would be python then |
| 12:51.41 | Elrond | counter |
| 12:51.42 | aloril | P0: a week, 2 days 23:08:18 (0.964 - 9.964 days); P1: 23.964 - 33.964; P2: 186.964 - 216.964 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (406) |
| 12:52.26 | DesktopMa | mokomakefile on x64=eeeek |
| 12:52.28 | DesktopMa | :) |
| 12:54.00 | aloril | hmm.. more like 1MB, for useful maybe even 2MB: http://mirror.hentges.net/www.openzaurus.org/3.5.4.1/feed/python/ |
| 12:54.14 | aloril | uups, those are compressed numbers too |
| 12:56.26 | aloril | python-pygtk2_2.6.2 786K libpython2.4-1.0_2.4 452K python-core_2.4.4 94K python-dbus_0.23 70K |
| 12:56.41 | aloril | or something like that |
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| 13:10.46 | LuitvD | omg, a response from e28 :D |
| 13:10.59 | LuitvD | oh no wait.. |
| 13:11.22 | LuitvD | damn :( |
| 13:15.38 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03laforge * r1134 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-arm920t_cp15_cmd.patch: sync cmd_arm920 with upstream uboot changes in makefile |
| 13:16.45 | *** join/#openmoko MetaMorfoziS (n=sajt@dsl54009E1D.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 13:16.52 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03laforge * r1135 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-mokoversion.patch: bump moko version |
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| 13:24.23 | MetaMorfoziS | what program created this: http://wiki.openmoko.org/images/2/28/Openmokoframework.png ? |
| 13:24.29 | MetaMorfoziS | it's cool. |
| 13:24.39 | LuitvD | lol |
| 13:24.59 | MetaMorfoziS | i wanna the graph maker program:) |
| 13:25.17 | LuitvD | it's a flowchart, not a graph |
| 13:25.24 | MetaMorfoziS | thank you |
| 13:28.39 | MetaMorfoziS | so , what program created that flowchart? |
| 13:28.39 | LuitvD | I don't know |
| 13:28.39 | koen|train | MetaMorfoziS: via, omni-graffle or dia |
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| 13:28.40 | LuitvD | koen|train: irc on the train? |
| 13:28.41 | LuitvD | koen|train: via GPRS? :P |
| 13:28.41 | koen|train | LuitvD: via EDGE |
| 13:28.41 | LuitvD | ah :) |
| 13:28.41 | MetaMorfoziS | thank you |
| 13:28.41 | LuitvD | where are you headed? |
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| 13:28.42 | koen|train | home |
| 13:28.42 | LuitvD | where is home? |
| 13:28.43 | MetaMorfoziS | near koen's monitor:) |
| 13:29.15 | LarstiQ | heh |
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| 14:07.39 | *** join/#openmoko BrianHV (n=bhv1@copland.brianhv.org) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 14:07.39 | *** join/#openmoko voidans (i=adam@dieor.freelive.org) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 14:08.02 | *** join/#openmoko vlo (n=valentin@lsa1pc7.epfl.ch) |
| 14:08.04 | LuitvD | wow, huge netsplit |
| 14:08.06 | *** join/#openmoko ericthefish (n=ivan@82-71-36-214.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) |
| 14:08.08 | buz | lol |
| 14:08.08 | buz | konversation lists 38s lag |
| 14:08.08 | LuitvD | did everyone get that? |
| 14:08.08 | LuitvD | sterling just split up, and I'm on sterling... |
| 14:08.08 | buz | LuitvD: got my mail? |
| 14:08.08 | buz | i get you |
| 14:08.09 | LuitvD | buz: yeah, I thought it was mail from the chinese people :P |
| 14:08.09 | buz | LOL |
| 14:08.09 | LuitvD | XD |
| 14:08.10 | buz | i sent the hk office the same mail i sent shanghai last week |
| 14:08.10 | LuitvD | ah, okay |
| 14:08.11 | buz | but probably got them right at end of the day |
| 14:08.12 | *** join/#openmoko l3010o (n=leo@n219079066049.netvigator.com) |
| 14:08.13 | buz | is the fosdem talk worth watching (i.e. anything new?) |
| 14:08.13 | LuitvD | it's 22:00 there now |
| 14:08.14 | buz | sent it 17:30HK time |
| 14:08.14 | buz | then again, hk never sleeps |
| 14:08.14 | LuitvD | lol |
| 14:08.15 | LuitvD | what, you found the video of the moko talk at fosdem? |
| 14:08.16 | vmaster | buz: 01:40 < SpeedEvil> However, there was little that someone that had read most of the wiki and mailing list diddn't know. |
| 14:08.16 | vmaster | 01:40 < SpeedEvil> But it brings some of it into clearer focus. |
| 14:08.16 | buz | ok not worth the time then |
| 14:08.18 | vmaster | LuitvD: it's on google video |
| 14:08.18 | LuitvD | okay :) |
| 14:08.19 | noidd | interesting videa |
| 14:08.19 | noidd | vid |
| 14:08.19 | noidd | nearly finished in it. |
| 14:08.19 | stefan_schmidt | buz: I found it interesting anyway. Some more details and business model. |
| 14:08.21 | noidd | buz: There is some new info such as talk of another hardware release |
| 14:08.22 | noidd | it was eitehr between June and P2 or March and June |
| 14:08.22 | noidd | I think the latter. You'd need to watch the vid and check. |
| 14:08.22 | buz | mpf |
| 14:08.23 | buz | goolge video thottles to 2mbit |
| 14:08.23 | buz | or my isp does |
| 14:08.24 | LuitvD | lol |
| 14:08.24 | LuitvD | mine stalled... |
| 14:08.24 | LuitvD | but that's because my cache is full :) |
| 14:08.25 | buz | mhh now its picking up |
| 14:08.26 | buz | konqueror and flv somehow dont mix well |
| 14:08.26 | buz | keeps stuttering |
| 14:08.27 | LuitvD | :P |
| 14:08.27 | LuitvD | got 0 traffic :) |
| 14:08.27 | aloril | P1+ at June? |
| 14:08.27 | LuitvD | aloril: yeah... something like that |
| 14:08.27 | buz | so what itmes are the interesting bits |
| 14:08.28 | *** join/#openmoko ljp (n=lpotter@203.94.178.46) |
| 14:08.28 | Stephmw | Simon Phipps and ESR endorsing Sun at Fosdem :) http://picasaweb.google.com/stephanemw/Fosdem2007/photo#5035835563754946434 |
| 14:08.28 | Stephmw | hey ljp |
| 14:08.28 | Stephmw | I missed you at fosdem :( |
| 14:08.29 | buz | i thought esr was primarily bashing fedora this week |
| 14:08.30 | SpeedEvil | loft306:20 |
| 14:08.30 | SpeedEvil | loft306:20 |
| 14:08.30 | SpeedEvil | gah |
| 14:08.30 | SpeedEvil | <PROTECTED> |
| 14:08.31 | Stephmw | mickey|fosdem07: when you get back :) http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Image:CF2_IMG_0041.jpg |
| 14:08.31 | buz | so my download is finished, but where exactly did i save it |
| 14:08.31 | SpeedEvil | is the 'something else everyone is asking for' in respect of phase 2 |
| 14:08.32 | SpeedEvil | Presumably either wifi or camera. |
| 14:08.32 | SpeedEvil | I've updated the wiki - [[neo1973[[ |
| 14:08.32 | SpeedEvil | I've updated the wiki - [[neo1973]] |
| 14:08.32 | SpeedEvil | times, according to the limited info in the speech. |
| 14:08.33 | LuitvD | Stephmw: lol, that's a bright screen :) |
| 14:08.34 | Stephmw | LuitvD: it's not a great photo of the screen unfortunately |
| 14:08.34 | Stephmw | LuitvD: it was very dark in there |
| 14:08.35 | SpeedEvil | No, the screen doesn't have much vital info on it though - most is in the wiki. |
| 14:08.35 | Stephmw | LuitvD: so to get mickey to show up at all I had to blow the highlight |
| 14:08.36 | LuitvD | :) |
| 14:08.36 | SpeedEvil | oops |
| 14:08.37 | *** join/#openmoko marcel_ (n=marcel@gentoo/contributor/marcel) |
| 14:08.38 | noidd | wish I knew which way around it was |
| 14:08.38 | noidd | but oh well |
| 14:08.39 | LuitvD | loool, doctor mickey :) |
| 14:09.27 | aloril | SpeedEvil: you mean that "something else everyone has been asking for" is for P2, not v2? |
| 14:09.42 | SpeedEvil | It will be introduced in P2 |
| 14:10.07 | SpeedEvil | Presumably it'll be available for P1 - which continues through P2, it's not a one-off buy. |
| 14:10.26 | SpeedEvil | for late P1 |
| 14:10.30 | noidd | btw, thanks for doing the video SpeedEvil |
| 14:10.42 | buz | is he making fun of us |
| 14:10.49 | buz | or are they really shipping the ultimate one in june |
| 14:10.51 | SpeedEvil | I played little part - and now wish I could re-do it. |
| 14:11.05 | SpeedEvil | That wasn't explicitly stated. |
| 14:11.20 | noidd | that kind of enviromment is impossible to film well without setting up the lighting in advance |
| 14:11.32 | SpeedEvil | I suspect it will be nearer september than june that the first ones (P1.5) will turn up. |
| 14:11.33 | buz | are the slides online somewhere |
| 14:11.44 | buz | well yes |
| 14:11.48 | SpeedEvil | But not putting out hardware to devs, before going mass market would be insane. |
| 14:11.49 | buz | but still in 2007 |
| 14:11.58 | noidd | What frustrated me was "We debated long and hard about whether to include this slide" |
| 14:12.04 | noidd | and then we couldn't actually see it |
| 14:12.04 | *** join/#openmoko Marex-debian (n=Marex@85.132.236.161) |
| 14:12.07 | noidd | tease |
| 14:12.18 | SpeedEvil | Was that the buisness model slide? |
| 14:12.30 | LuitvD | buz: I now know what distro it uses... but only the name... can't find any other info... |
| 14:12.37 | LuitvD | buz: SmarCore |
| 14:12.46 | buz | is that really a distro |
| 14:12.51 | buz | or more of a marketing gimmick from e28 |
| 14:13.10 | buz | i know it lists it on a screenshot somewhere |
| 14:13.23 | buz | aloril might want to update his wifi? trigger |
| 14:14.01 | buz | ok i now need a cheap phone that will work til september ;) |
| 14:14.09 | LuitvD | buz: it's really the name of the software I guess... it appears in some chinese sheet with a list of software on various smartphones |
| 14:14.23 | LuitvD | buz: why september? |
| 14:14.23 | buz | maybe its the stack above linux |
| 14:14.33 | buz | because i sure dont believe june |
| 14:14.37 | LuitvD | :P |
| 14:14.43 | aloril | hmm.. so does "something else everyone has been asking for" refer to P1+ device introduced between June and September? |
| 14:15.01 | buz | imho, that would be the wifi device |
| 14:15.04 | aloril | unfortunately my understanding of spoken English is not good :-( |
| 14:15.26 | buz | anything else worthy of watchin in that vide |
| 14:15.44 | SpeedEvil | IMO, yes. |
| 14:15.51 | SpeedEvil | It's interesting, he's not a boring speaker. |
| 14:15.51 | buz | essentially that would be neov2 then |
| 14:15.57 | buz | if they really replace the cpu, too |
| 14:16.01 | aloril | I guess business case and reply to trolltech 'troll' ;-) |
| 14:16.22 | SpeedEvil | Well, IMO, around the same number of newbies ask about camera and wifi. |
| 14:16.36 | buz | camera would probably be simpler |
| 14:16.38 | SpeedEvil | CPU replacement is quite major - possibly. |
| 14:16.40 | aloril | umm.. did it say replacing CPU? that sounds like v2 to me |
| 14:16.50 | buz | did say more processing power |
| 14:16.55 | buz | possibly new gsm module too (i think |
| 14:16.59 | buz | must watch it again |
| 14:17.02 | SpeedEvil | It could be minor - another version of the chip, with absolutely compatible pinout. |
| 14:17.14 | SpeedEvil | It could simply be different flash on the existing GSM module. |
| 14:17.24 | buz | or it could bump it to edge |
| 14:17.36 | buz | which would be sensible |
| 14:17.42 | *** join/#openmoko bkuhn (n=bkuhn@atheist.ebb.org) |
| 14:17.52 | buz | if they want to please the geeks (and they should) they add wifi, then camera |
| 14:18.01 | aloril | wifi? |
| 14:18.01 | aloril | When version 1 was designed there was no sufficiently low-power WiFi chip available which has an open driver. You can attach (battery) powered USB hub to Neo1973 and then use supported WiFi USB stick. For more information see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F |
| 14:18.07 | LuitvD | :P |
| 14:18.09 | aloril | maybe I just update link? |
| 14:18.10 | buz | but from an engineering point of view camera is probably easier |
| 14:18.20 | *** join/#openmoko l4rs (n=laprican@hsiproxy.astra-net.com) |
| 14:18.21 | SpeedEvil | I dunno. |
| 14:18.29 | buz | nmuch less rf trouble |
| 14:18.38 | SpeedEvil | If you can find a wifi+ bluetooth module in the same space as the bluetooth module it might work easily. |
| 14:19.06 | SpeedEvil | And you really want to integrate those two anyway, as they can do stuff by knowing when the other side is going to transmit. |
| 14:19.19 | buz | LuitvD: i think smarcore is some e28 stuff |
| 14:19.45 | SpeedEvil | EDGE however, is not a firmware upgrade possible. |
| 14:19.45 | LuitvD | yeah |
| 14:19.51 | aloril | hmm.. I should probably make autotrigger for '?' repeated 3 times during 15 minutes for newbies (->faq?) (needs research to see what should work, wifi? has worked reasonably well so far) |
| 14:19.56 | LuitvD | buz: i'm afraid it's quite closed... |
| 14:20.38 | sameo | SpeedEvil: most of the embedded wifi chips have BT-WLAN coexistence feature in their firmware. |
| 14:20.53 | buz | i think there is even bt-wifi-gsm combo chips now |
| 14:20.54 | LuitvD | aloril: yeah, that script did well lately :) |
| 14:21.02 | SpeedEvil | Yeah - ATM they're using a canned module connected over USB AIUI though. |
| 14:21.18 | SpeedEvil | Rather than a 'home rolled' solution. |
| 14:21.35 | *** join/#openmoko Marex (n=Marex@85.132.236.161) |
| 14:21.42 | *** join/#openmoko Rac0r (n=Rac0r@p5081DC5A.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 14:21.42 | buz | http://eetimes.eu/197007586;jsessionid=SMFDY4UXZWHDEQSNDLSCKHA they are already using CSR for BT no? |
| 14:22.09 | buz | uuh that url is f***** |
| 14:22.49 | LuitvD | aaaaargh, I like these pics: http://www.e28.com/e28mobile/images/image/4_1.jpg |
| 14:22.51 | LuitvD | :( |
| 14:22.53 | LuitvD | :( :( |
| 14:23.07 | aloril | wifi? |
| 14:23.08 | aloril | When version 1 was designed there was no sufficiently low-power WiFi chip available which has an open driver. You can attach (battery) powered USB hub to Neo1973 and then use supported WiFi USB stick. Also some later model at unknown time will include WiFi. For more information see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F |
| 14:23.09 | aloril | ;-) |
| 14:23.20 | aloril | (+ Also some later model at unknown time will include WiFi. ) |
| 14:24.01 | buz | mhh csr also makes gps now |
| 14:24.09 | buz | that would be ideal |
| 14:24.20 | buz | gps+wifi+bt all in one chip |
| 14:24.20 | SpeedEvil | I suppose it's concievable that if P1 goes well enough - FIC may decide - Hey, this is interesting! |
| 14:24.27 | LuitvD | buz: the e2881 would be ideal... :) |
| 14:24.39 | SpeedEvil | And bump the development budget for hardware by an order of magnitude. |
| 14:24.44 | buz | actually, if fic gives me wifi in fall, the QVGA screen is too bad ;) |
| 14:24.59 | SpeedEvil | To give it a more cutting edge phone. |
| 14:24.59 | buz | i agree |
| 14:25.04 | LuitvD | buz: hmm... what about full sized SD card slot? |
| 14:25.06 | buz | but otoh, this cannibalizes sales of p1 phoines |
| 14:25.14 | buz | LuitvD: i dont htink its fullsized |
| 14:25.18 | buz | theres a microsd logo on the back |
| 14:25.32 | LuitvD | buz: it is full sized AND microsd |
| 14:25.36 | LuitvD | it has both |
| 14:25.41 | buz | i still doubt that |
| 14:25.43 | buz | theres simply no space |
| 14:25.46 | buz | look how thin it is |
| 14:25.49 | *** join/#openmoko ljp (n=lpotter@203.94.178.46) |
| 14:26.01 | LuitvD | look at the thing on the left side |
| 14:26.05 | buz | yeah |
| 14:26.16 | buz | e28 should bloody answer our mails |
| 14:26.24 | LuitvD | looks like a rubber flap on the side |
| 14:26.30 | LuitvD | which covers something |
| 14:26.32 | SpeedEvil | dock connector? |
| 14:26.36 | noidd | I'm not saying I don't care about wifi, but honestly - the camera would be more useful to me day-to-day |
| 14:26.38 | buz | usb maybe |
| 14:26.39 | LuitvD | beïng a SD/MMC connector |
| 14:26.44 | LuitvD | usb is on the other side |
| 14:27.02 | LuitvD | so it's not a dock connector either |
| 14:27.06 | noidd | I have unlimited data so there really is no great advantage for me personally |
| 14:27.14 | buz | i dont think omap730 can run two sd cards |
| 14:27.25 | buz | ok maybe in spi mode somehow |
| 14:27.25 | LuitvD | buz: ofcourse it can... |
| 14:27.45 | buz | in any case, it's a weird design decision |
| 14:27.45 | SpeedEvil | I don't think there is unlimited data available here - it's 3 quid a meg or so, or a quid a day. |
| 14:27.46 | LuitvD | buz: SPI can add a new device with one new SS pin |
| 14:27.52 | LuitvD | buz: why? |
| 14:27.59 | buz | because the device is so small |
| 14:28.09 | buz | why add TWO slots |
| 14:28.10 | LuitvD | but still it all fits |
| 14:28.15 | SpeedEvil | SPI mode it can run with no new pins. |
| 14:28.16 | noidd | yeah, so some functionality is user/plan/geographically specific |
| 14:28.22 | SpeedEvil | You can electrically parallel the pins. |
| 14:28.37 | buz | SpeedEvil: yes but in a 12.5mm thick touchscreen qwerty device, space for the slot itself becomes a problem |
| 14:28.38 | SpeedEvil | And it can auto-discover the card IDs, and put one to sleep. |
| 14:28.41 | LuitvD | SpeedEvil: that's I2C/SPI |
| 14:28.41 | *** join/#openmoko greentux (n=lemke@88.128.38.167) |
| 14:28.42 | SpeedEvil | Damn slow though. |
| 14:28.57 | SpeedEvil | For the SD card, in MMC compatibility mode. |
| 14:29.00 | LuitvD | AFAIC |
| 14:29.09 | LuitvD | c > k |
| 14:29.19 | SpeedEvil | You need seperate chip selects for SDIO though. |
| 14:29.32 | LuitvD | I think it doesn't have SDIO |
| 14:29.52 | SpeedEvil | The hardware is the same. |
| 14:29.54 | buz | also please add sd slot to neo 1.5 |
| 14:30.01 | LuitvD | "External memory: MicroSD/SD/MMC" |
| 14:30.02 | SpeedEvil | for SD and SDIO |
| 14:30.06 | SpeedEvil | it's just software. |
| 14:30.09 | LuitvD | yeah |
| 14:30.13 | buz | if you dont add anything else, gimme sd slot |
| 14:30.19 | LuitvD | lol |
| 14:30.25 | buz | somewhere where rf can go |
| 14:30.33 | SpeedEvil | You could in principle bring the P1 microSD slot out to the back of the phone, and use a wifi card in it. |
| 14:30.35 | buz | not sandwiched between battery and screen |
| 14:30.39 | LuitvD | buz: SDIO, so you can add a Wi-Fi SDIO device |
| 14:30.40 | SpeedEvil | Of course, then you have no storage. |
| 14:30.57 | buz | LuitvD: sd slot is good enough |
| 14:30.59 | buz | sdio we can hack |
| 14:31.02 | buz | (somehow) |
| 14:31.12 | LuitvD | hardware on SD and SDIO is the same |
| 14:31.14 | SpeedEvil | SDIO you can only hack if there is a chip enable pin. |
| 14:31.26 | SpeedEvil | SDIO and SD cards cannot be electrically paralleled. |
| 14:31.52 | buz | why cant i find combo chips on csr.com |
| 14:31.59 | LuitvD | you don't even want an electrically paralelled SD card slot... |
| 14:32.07 | SpeedEvil | No, as the speed sucks. |
| 14:32.44 | buz | 500kb/s would be plenty for me |
| 14:32.54 | denis^da | But what would be so cool about a closed hardware E2881 ? |
| 14:33.03 | buz | denis^da: look at the specs |
| 14:33.23 | LuitvD | denis^da: you think it's more closed then the Neo? |
| 14:33.35 | SpeedEvil | I hope P1 on the neo goes well enough that FIC decide to invest lots of money in P2. |
| 14:33.43 | SpeedEvil | And give us a nice phone. |
| 14:33.47 | LuitvD | denis^da: I think the GSM/GPRS and the GPS are closed on that device too, and the rest is open |
| 14:34.08 | denis^da | how do you know that the other things are open ? |
| 14:34.11 | buz | SpeedEvil: for p2 to be a different phone, fic needs to invest money NOW |
| 14:34.22 | buz | denis^da: omap730 has linux stack from TI |
| 14:34.26 | LuitvD | SpeedEvil: maybe even multiple case designs :) |
| 14:34.35 | buz | omg qwerty |
| 14:34.38 | buz | gimme qwerty |
| 14:34.39 | LuitvD | lol |
| 14:34.49 | buz | and imx31 |
| 14:34.52 | denis^da | I mean the features are cool but it is marketing ;) VOIP etc are buzzwords nothing else |
| 14:34.56 | LuitvD | imx31? |
| 14:34.57 | noidd | I've already informed my father-out-law that he is making me a nice walnut case for me new phone ;-) |
| 14:34.59 | SpeedEvil | buz: pretty much, though putting more people on it can help - especially ifg you've got similar hardware already. |
| 14:35.49 | SpeedEvil | And a good design team already competant in the area. |
| 14:36.48 | denis^da | where do you have WLAN... at home ok there I don't need my mobile. And outside Wlan is expensive (except the open ones in cities but at the other parts... no wlan) -> useless atm |
| 14:36.53 | noidd | FIC already has those people in place i'm sure |
| 14:36.59 | buz | http://www.freescale.com/imx31 |
| 14:37.09 | buz | are any cortex SOC shipping already? |
| 14:37.14 | denis^da | -> you can't use voip at all. |
| 14:37.15 | noidd | I'm guessing its going to be a matter of fighting to have their resources dedicated to you as opposed to another FIC project. |
| 14:38.00 | vmaster | buz: Cortex-M3 has been available for some time, and i remember reading about Cortex-A just recently, too |
| 14:38.04 | SpeedEvil | noidd: Treue - it's a matter of how much time you budget to each device. |
| 14:38.23 | buz | in hardware or just schematics? |
| 14:38.41 | SpeedEvil | http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=755 looks interesting for add-ons. A 7mm trackball. |
| 14:38.41 | denis^da | and the camera hmm that's a toy. For real pictures and videos you have a real camera |
| 14:38.43 | noidd | there is no doubt they have the skills already in shouse |
| 14:38.43 | LuitvD | denis^da: I'll have free blasting-fast Wi-Fi at school next year :) (college) |
| 14:38.48 | noidd | in-house |
| 14:38.55 | *** join/#openmoko cprf (n=rzinkov@oss-staff.rutgers.edu) |
| 14:38.57 | buz | wtf do you need a trackball on a touchscreen device |
| 14:39.04 | LuitvD | noidd: yeah :) that thing is cool |
| 14:39.14 | denis^da | LuitvD, at school yeah but tha's something you don't have forever ;) |
| 14:39.16 | buz | i think blackberry pearl has trackball |
| 14:39.21 | SpeedEvil | I was thinking of putting it on the back. |
| 14:39.24 | denis^da | LuitvD, I have Wlan at university as well |
| 14:39.36 | LuitvD | denis^da: a phone isn't something I'll have forever either :) |
| 14:39.41 | denis^da | but at school, university I have a notebook ;) |
| 14:39.42 | buz | by the time neo has wifi, i'll likely be done with school |
| 14:39.50 | buz | unless i go for a phd |
| 14:39.54 | LuitvD | :P |
| 14:40.45 | denis^da | Yeah but the thing is a mobile is for my mobile usage and not for static things (that would be at home, school wherever I can have a table) |
| 14:41.05 | *** join/#openmoko ake (n=ake@h148n2fls34o895.telia.com) |
| 14:41.08 | buz | i dont like carrying alaptop to school very much |
| 14:41.12 | buz | even though mine is sub2kg |
| 14:41.15 | denis^da | Therefore I have a notebook which is much more powerful and doesn't run out of energy |
| 14:41.37 | buz | he says "we're gonna up processing power, move to a faster gsm system [..]" |
| 14:41.38 | SpeedEvil | Consider wandering past a hotspot, and it automatically updating all your local cache of interesting web pages, or whatever. |
| 14:41.41 | buz | so that's edge and a new cpu |
| 14:41.43 | denis^da | yeah but you will never do the things on your mobile that you can do at a normal nb |
| 14:41.56 | buz | i would totally read slashdot |
| 14:42.00 | SpeedEvil | Without you taking it out of your pocket. |
| 14:42.08 | denis^da | the limiting thing is the screen and the keyboard |
| 14:42.29 | vmaster | put one of those laser-projecting keyboards in it ;) |
| 14:42.43 | denis^da | SpeedEvil, but therefore I have to log in in the hotspot ;) |
| 14:42.50 | SpeedEvil | Automatic. |
| 14:42.58 | denis^da | not really |
| 14:43.00 | *** join/#openmoko mikesh (n=mikesh@feldconf.feld.cvut.cz) |
| 14:43.07 | SpeedEvil | If have set it up for that spot. |
| 14:43.18 | SpeedEvil | Or if you're using the 'any open wifi network' option. |
| 14:43.21 | buz | vmaster: those laser thingies are supposedly rather useless |
| 14:43.31 | SpeedEvil | The fundamental problem is feel. |
| 14:43.37 | buz | my uni needs VPNC for networking |
| 14:43.42 | SpeedEvil | I mean, try typing on a picture of a keyboard. |
| 14:43.43 | buz | but thats easily solved with linux |
| 14:43.59 | denis^da | open networks ;) how many do you count outside the cities ? |
| 14:44.07 | SpeedEvil | I'm as fast as I am on a keyboard because I can feel the edges of the keys, and auto-correct as to where they are. Laser - nope. |
| 14:44.15 | SpeedEvil | Actually. |
| 14:44.29 | SpeedEvil | In my little village of 1000, about 4. |
| 14:44.45 | SpeedEvil | And some of those are hittable from the road as driving along. |
| 14:44.57 | denis^da | yeah and they cover let me say 4% of the area you are going through |
| 14:45.09 | buz | thats good enough |
| 14:45.11 | SpeedEvil | For asynchronus updates, they are ideal. |
| 14:45.19 | SpeedEvil | Well, not ideal, but not totally useless. |
| 14:45.21 | denis^da | I have wlan in my pda but the usage is quite null |
| 14:45.31 | buz | whenever i get a wifi fix, get me mail, and all rss streams and their likns |
| 14:45.40 | SpeedEvil | yeah. |
| 14:45.42 | buz | usage of my pda itself is null ;) |
| 14:45.57 | denis^da | buz, haha that is true but why :D |
| 14:46.11 | buz | because winmobile sucks soooo badly |
| 14:46.18 | buz | and the thing is old |
| 14:46.33 | denis^da | I see a lot of things you could do with Wlan but not much you actually can do atm :) |
| 14:46.48 | denis^da | + I |
| 14:47.09 | SpeedEvil | It'd be a hell of a lot better if 802.11* had included a vlan, plus micropayment scheme. |
| 14:47.26 | denis^da | in my opinion wlan is not the future for mobile data exchange |
| 14:47.33 | SpeedEvil | So you could pay for access, and people would be motivated to give you that access, and be able to bid for it. |
| 14:47.41 | denis^da | haha yeah :> |
| 14:47.52 | SpeedEvil | wlan is part of it. |
| 14:48.05 | SpeedEvil | I don't think there is a generic solution that works everywhere. |
| 14:48.16 | denis^da | In my opinion it must be some service that is available neraly everywhere like GPRS but much faster |
| 14:48.33 | buz | the BIG advantage of wlan is that everyone can do it, not just greedy telcos |
| 14:48.44 | buz | denis^da: thats called UMTS |
| 14:48.49 | denis^da | UMTS is getting better and better in germany |
| 14:48.51 | denis^da | yeah I know |
| 14:49.03 | SpeedEvil | Wifi runs into problems in congested areas as you can hear far routers. |
| 14:49.04 | buz | its not so much the quality but the price about umts here |
| 14:49.10 | SpeedEvil | 60Ghz comms should help. |
| 14:49.16 | LuitvD | HSDPA is getting denser here :) |
| 14:49.21 | denis^da | the price is not the problem I think |
| 14:49.28 | SpeedEvil | The atmosphere absorbs it, so you can't hear far devices that you couldn't decode. |
| 14:49.29 | denis^da | it is getting cheaper and cheaper |
| 14:49.36 | buz | oh with 3E per mb it is for me |
| 14:49.42 | denis^da | yeah |
| 14:49.44 | denis^da | at the moment |
| 14:49.51 | buz | if i could flat umts for 20? |
| 14:49.56 | buz | that would change everything |
| 14:49.59 | denis^da | but in 5 years you get a flat ;) |
| 14:50.00 | buz | no need for wifi anymore |
| 14:50.05 | denis^da | that's it |
| 14:50.06 | SpeedEvil | Err - no. |
| 14:50.12 | buz | they said that 5 years before |
| 14:50.22 | SpeedEvil | There isn't the spectrum for everyone to go from wifi-3G or whatever. |
| 14:50.39 | buz | i dont care. i will up my rf power as much as it takes lol |
| 14:50.42 | SpeedEvil | Even with advances like directional antennas in phones and mobile towers. |
| 14:52.48 | denis^da | hmm ok :> But then the best thing at the moment would be EDGE for me |
| 14:53.15 | denis^da | not for voip but the speed for normal data is ok |
| 15:00.48 | buz | i guess faster gsm means edge |
| 15:04.42 | noidd | Hmm, I have an appointment with HR in 55 mins. |
| 15:04.50 | noidd | expecting to be made redundant - wheeee |
| 15:05.11 | SpeedEvil | :( |
| 15:05.22 | noidd | Nah, I'll be happy to get out of here |
| 15:05.25 | SpeedEvil | Good luck. |
| 15:05.30 | noidd | been miserable in this job for a while |
| 15:05.33 | SpeedEvil | Maybe they want to give you a raise. |
| 15:05.38 | noidd | they already did |
| 15:05.57 | noidd | I kid you not. I got 2 raises so far this year and a bonus in 2 weeks which is 10% of my salary |
| 15:06.05 | noidd | yet they're still going to make me redundant |
| 15:06.28 | noidd | My position in the company has basically disapeared so they need to find another dept to put me in. |
| 15:06.53 | noidd | Gimmie 2 weeks pay and my bonus and i'll be out of there with a smile on my face |
| 15:07.58 | buz | CRAP |
| 15:08.10 | buz | why cant business adminsitration students cite correctly |
| 15:08.34 | SpeedEvil | There, no need to post any more URLs. |
| 15:08.36 | SpeedEvil | oops |
| 15:10.34 | *** join/#openmoko rd_ (n=redragon@segfault.net) |
| 15:14.08 | PBeck | hi |
| 15:15.27 | aloril | hmm.. it seems that 2 '?' during first 15 minutes might be reasonable heuristics for faq answer |
| 15:15.52 | SpeedEvil | For new user? |
| 15:15.55 | SpeedEvil | Or anyone? |
| 15:15.56 | aloril | yes |
| 15:16.16 | aloril | new user only, everybody else can trigger it with "faq?" already |
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| 15:17.05 | PBeck | faq |
| 15:17.16 | aloril | false positive is maybe less than 20% |
| 15:17.20 | aloril | with question mark ;-) |
| 15:17.26 | PBeck | faq? |
| 15:17.27 | aloril | See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ |
| 15:17.34 | PBeck | faq? |
| 15:17.35 | aloril | See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ |
| 15:17.38 | PBeck | nice :D |
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| 15:41.58 | SpeedEvil | faq? |
| 15:42.08 | LuitvD | lol? |
| 15:42.26 | SpeedEvil | Anyway. I've just tried to sort the FAQ page into some sort of order. |
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| 15:42.53 | SpeedEvil | I'm now going through it, to merge similar entries, and try to tidy up some of the verbosity if possible. |
| 15:44.15 | aloril | (just testing), there is no wiFI? |
| 15:44.28 | newbie_test6 | (just testing), there is no wiFI? |
| 15:44.28 | aloril | When version 1 was designed there was no sufficiently low-power WiFi chip available which has an open driver. You can attach (battery) powered USB hub to Neo1973 and then use supported WiFi USB stick. Also some later model at unknown time will include WiFi. For more information see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F |
| 15:44.44 | newbie_test6 | (testing) what about source? |
| 15:44.44 | aloril | newbie_test6: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ |
| 15:44.46 | DesktopMa | SpeedEvil: are there any tricks to compile on x64? or is it a no go |
| 15:44.55 | newbie_test6 | oh, nice?! |
| 15:45.40 | aloril | well.. seems to work |
| 15:46.31 | CM | DesktopMa: I've been running the moko makefile on amd-64, seems to work just fine |
| 15:46.49 | CM | But I haven't tried to run it, just build it |
| 15:47.02 | CM | I mean the openmoko image |
| 15:47.21 | DesktopMa | rly |
| 15:47.28 | DesktopMa | when it compiles it uses x64 headers, is that fine? |
| 15:47.42 | aloril | SpeedEvil: your "faq?" didn't work because I was testing at it at the moment ;-) |
| 15:47.43 | CM | I don't think it does |
| 15:47.55 | aloril | SpeedEvil: should work now |
| 15:47.56 | CM | bitbake installs cross-compile things |
| 15:48.01 | CM | faq? |
| 15:48.01 | aloril | See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ |
| 15:48.04 | CM | :) |
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| 15:48.42 | aloril | hopefully autotrigger (? twice during 15 minutes for new nick) works reasonably well (ie.. most of time relevant trigger) |
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| 15:59.11 | SpeedEvil | Ok - it should be in a more readable state now I hope. |
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| 15:59.39 | SpeedEvil | I've reorganised, and polished the [[FAQ#Introduction]] a little. |
| 15:59.50 | SpeedEvil | Still to do software, hardware, and misc. |
| 16:00.13 | aloril | hmm.. testing on log file most of time it would seem to trigger at OK, but there were some useless and even funny replies |
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| 16:06.21 | buz | so how come sean can talk about neo 1.5 but not give specs |
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| 16:07.28 | stefan_schmidt | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Summer_of_code |
| 16:07.45 | stefan_schmidt | I wrote a mail to openmoko-devel about it. Should appear in the next minutes. |
| 16:09.15 | LuitvD | :) |
| 16:09.26 | LuitvD | too bad I can't attend |
| 16:09.42 | koen | stefan_schmidt: did you talk to Leslie at fosdem? |
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| 16:10.21 | stefan_schmidt | koen: Don't think so. Who is it? |
| 16:10.34 | LuitvD | stefan_schmidt: on that page you stated one of the Ideas as "optimizing for 48MB ram" ... for how much RAM is it optimized now? |
| 16:11.07 | stefan_schmidt | LuitvD: It is used on 128MB. Not that much optimizing yet |
| 16:11.33 | LuitvD | stefan_schmidt: so It's not sure It'll work on 64MB? |
| 16:12.04 | LuitvD | aargh, want to work on that QVGA stuff :( |
| 16:12.05 | stefan_schmidt | LuitvD: IIRC it already was used on 64MB devices |
| 16:12.13 | LuitvD | oh, okay |
| 16:13.00 | koen | stefan_schmidt: Leslie is the lead SoC woman |
| 16:13.03 | LuitvD | too bad I can't attend untill next year |
| 16:13.14 | stefan_schmidt | LuitvD: Of course you can still work on QVGA stuff. Even if such a proposal gets accepted everybody else can also work on the same stuff. |
| 16:13.26 | koen | I use openmoko on a 64mb device |
| 16:13.31 | koen | works pretty well |
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| 16:13.43 | LuitvD | stefan_schmidt: but now I won't get paid by google :) |
| 16:13.48 | stefan_schmidt | koen: Ah, so definitly not |
| 16:13.49 | koen | and with qvga you can use a lot less memory (smaller pixmaps, etc) |
| 16:13.55 | stefan_schmidt | LuitvD: right |
| 16:14.05 | LuitvD | and openmoko Inc won't get paid either... |
| 16:14.27 | stefan_schmidt | koen: Sean promised us to talk with the designer about an official qvga theme. Would be nice. |
| 16:14.36 | LuitvD | :) |
| 16:14.50 | koen | stefan_schmidt: I know :) |
| 16:15.04 | stefan_schmidt | heh |
| 16:15.29 | koen | btw: http://www.flickr.com/photos/koenkooi/400718251/ |
| 16:15.35 | stefan_schmidt | To much people to much talk, but at least even much fun at FOSDEM. :) |
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| 16:17.06 | stefan_schmidt | koen: Good idea. In the evening I'll have a long photo journey. :) |
| 16:17.39 | LarstiQ | silly question perhaps, but does the 'nomad' on there have any signifigance? |
| 16:17.52 | stefan_schmidt | koen: You have done some photos in the crowed devroom at sean's talk? |
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| 16:18.13 | stefan_schmidt | koen: I know florian has done some. Need to pester him to upload them. |
| 16:23.27 | Fletch | is there a overview about the colors of the cases which r available? |
| 16:23.52 | Clint | the one i played with was orange & white |
| 16:24.04 | LuitvD | koen: why does that device say "nomad" on it? |
| 16:25.13 | koen | LuitvD: we suspect 'nomad' makes the casings |
| 16:25.20 | LuitvD | ah... |
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| 16:30.18 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03laforge * r1136 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-dfu.patch: * add 6th altsetting and allow flashing of rootfs partition |
| 16:30.39 | Magon | koen: hi, do you have and idea why when i build openmoko-devel-image for x86 it puts in rootfs just ipkg stuff and nothing else? |
| 16:30.56 | koen | Magon: no idea, sorry |
| 16:31.27 | Magon | koen: i can post you log.do_rootfs |
| 16:32.11 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03laforge * r1137 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-mokoversion.patch: bump revision to moko3 |
| 16:32.20 | Magon | http://www.ms.mff.cuni.cz/~kupem6am/log.do_rootfs.6148 |
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| 16:36.32 | LuitvD | koen: look at tweakers :D 3 headlines today about either open-source or GNU/Linux :) |
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| 16:43.33 | SpeedEvil | Ok - that's FAQ updated on introduction, and hardware - somewhat, I'll tackle the mess that is some of the run-on USB answers later. |
| 16:44.25 | Magon | what is the difference between image_ipk and image in image files ? |
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| 17:37.07 | sixfeet | moin |
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| 18:01.45 | Skyhusker | hi |
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| 18:12.35 | PBeck | re |
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| 18:25.26 | dwery | counter |
| 18:25.27 | aloril | P0: a week, 2 days 17:34:33 (0.732 - 9.732 days); P1: 23.732 - 33.732; P2: 186.732 - 216.732 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (407) |
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| 18:28.04 | Elrond | Is it only me, or is http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_Will_a_JTAG_port_be_made_available.3F not really up-to-date? Should I just fix it? |
| 18:28.19 | SpeedEvil | Sure. |
| 18:28.35 | SpeedEvil | I haven't looked at that bit - I just reordered, and rewrote a little of it. |
| 18:29.35 | Elrond | No reproach intended. I'm just reading the FAQ and being curious. :) |
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| 18:29.51 | Elrond | *fixing* |
| 18:29.53 | SpeedEvil | I've sorted it into semi-sane order I hope :) |
| 18:33.26 | Elrond | Yep. |
| 18:36.30 | Elrond | done. |
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| 18:48.15 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - I "fixed" the USB heading levels in the FAQ. :) |
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| 18:54.25 | SpeedEvil | K |
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| 19:04.53 | buz | wtf is a simfree phone |
| 19:05.34 | dottedmag | buz: another name for wired phone? :) |
| 19:05.59 | buz | lol |
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| 19:07.03 | CM | buz: I'd want that |
| 19:07.12 | CM | I mean to use the Neo without a sim in it |
| 19:07.18 | buz | oh |
| 19:07.19 | buz | well |
| 19:07.22 | buz | its not a phone anymore then |
| 19:07.24 | CM | To play mp3, or surf via bluetooth ro so |
| 19:07.28 | SpeedEvil | You can use it - but not as a phone. |
| 19:07.28 | CM | or |
| 19:07.43 | CM | Well, sip headset maybe |
| 19:07.50 | CM | If you use bluetooth networking |
| 19:07.59 | SpeedEvil | SIM free usually means 'a phone that's bought without a SIM' |
| 19:08.25 | CM | SpeedEvil: Aha.. I've always bought phones that way, didn't know |
| 19:08.29 | SpeedEvil | Rather than operating the phone without the SIM. |
| 19:08.50 | SpeedEvil | In some places, it can be hard to get one without a contract included. |
| 19:08.56 | SpeedEvil | Or hard to get a SIM without a phone. |
| 19:09.02 | *** join/#openmoko jzs (n=king@217.116.232.184) |
| 19:09.21 | CM | True.. I'm only used to the Swedish market, and it's pretty free.. |
| 19:09.53 | buz | same here |
| 19:09.57 | SpeedEvil | The UK market is pretty free that way - all the carriers have 'SIM only' offers, and phones are widely available too. |
| 19:10.00 | SpeedEvil | Well - almost all. |
| 19:10.03 | buz | easiest and cheapest is actually prepaid phone with sim |
| 19:10.16 | buz | usually the phones are just network locked so you can throw away that prepay card |
| 19:10.26 | SpeedEvil | 3 doesn't let you put their SIMs in non-3G phones, or they ban you. |
| 19:10.32 | buz | which is likely what i'll do tomorrow seeing that my p900 wont receive sms anymore |
| 19:10.33 | dottedmag | hm. I checked how my phone operate without SIM. It starts some pretty stupid demo :) |
| 19:10.37 | dottedmag | *operates |
| 19:11.01 | buz | are any of those super sim thingies with like1G storage standardized? |
| 19:11.18 | SpeedEvil | I think the only standard is 64K isn't it? |
| 19:11.23 | buz | yes |
| 19:11.24 | SpeedEvil | On large SIMs. |
| 19:11.30 | buz | but they are working on USB sims and mmc sims |
| 19:11.46 | dottedmag | omg. what about PCIExpress sims? :) |
| 19:12.04 | SpeedEvil | You mean SIMs that are also USB or MMC cards, or the SIM is a MMC/USB peripheral? |
| 19:12.15 | buz | SpeedEvil: not sure actually |
| 19:12.26 | buz | sim as usb peripheral would be neat |
| 19:12.51 | buz | another thing nobody understands: if you sign a contract, you pay 40 chf for a sim card |
| 19:13.03 | buz | if you get prepay, it's free and comes with credit loaded already |
| 19:13.32 | *** join/#openmoko jim_rayner (n=jim_rayn@beyondvoice.plus.com) |
| 19:14.05 | LuitvD | I can get a prepay simcard with 15 euros-worth of load, for 4 euro's :) |
| 19:15.05 | buz | at some point i could get one with 20chf load for free |
| 19:15.18 | buz | (but they wouldnt switch numbers to it, so it was essentially useless) |
| 19:15.55 | LuitvD | they do switch numbers for that 15 euros-worth for 4 euro |
| 19:16.02 | buz | lol |
| 19:16.15 | buz | still come out 7eur ahead |
| 19:16.27 | buz | kinda painful to always switch numbers thoug |
| 19:16.46 | buz | i want a prepaid card with cheap gprs traffic |
| 19:16.54 | buz | like say pay 10EUR for 1G |
| 19:17.05 | LuitvD | :P |
| 19:17.19 | buz | i can guarantee you they would make more money of me than now |
| 19:17.46 | DeVol | LuitvD: exactly what country is this? Could be interesting now that pay-by-phone is becoming popular ;D |
| 19:17.46 | SpeedEvil | Well - not really. |
| 19:18.00 | SpeedEvil | The charges they face for data traffic can be quite high. |
| 19:18.11 | SpeedEvil | Especially when they have to pay roaming agreements. |
| 19:18.15 | LuitvD | DeVol: just north of yours :) |
| 19:18.30 | SpeedEvil | There is only so much GPRS capacity out there, underpricing it, and letting it get congested would be insane. |
| 19:18.53 | buz | fwiw, they can do it with umts for all i care |
| 19:19.10 | buz | and rate limit it to 64kbit |
| 19:19.42 | buz | i dont believe one second that gprs spectrum is anywhere close to being used up right now |
| 19:20.14 | buz | oh maybe ringtones use it up |
| 19:21.05 | SpeedEvil | In places - it is. |
| 19:21.15 | SpeedEvil | GPRS slows down, when it is congested. |
| 19:21.22 | SpeedEvil | In many places it's very slow. |
| 19:21.35 | SpeedEvil | And GPRS and GSM spectrum are the same thing. |
| 19:21.48 | SpeedEvil | There is a tradeoff between calls and data. |
| 19:23.27 | buz | i NEVER have had issues getting call connection in switzerland |
| 19:23.31 | Psi_ | hopfully thats not so much of a problem now that most places have 3G |
| 19:23.35 | buz | only place that ever was an issue was hk |
| 19:23.56 | Psi_ | ie.. the kind of people who would want lots of data will use 3G and stay off gprs |
| 19:25.29 | greghunt | what are 3G data prices like anyway? |
| 19:27.29 | Psi_ | depends where you are i guess |
| 19:28.59 | *** join/#openmoko Clint (n=Clint@thumb.scru.org) |
| 19:29.06 | DesktopMa | here you can get a static fee of 50$ a month |
| 19:31.49 | *** join/#openmoko Clint (n=Clint@thumb.scru.org) |
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| 19:47.35 | koen | for the people on the community list: http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=224174&cid=18155400 |
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| 19:56.58 | *** join/#openmoko mikesh (n=mikesh@x133.net.upc.cz) |
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| 19:59.47 | |Lupin| | Hello |
| 19:59.52 | woglinde | counter |
| 19:59.52 | aloril | P0: a week, 2 days 16:00:07 (0.667 - 9.667 days); P1: 23.667 - 33.667; P2: 186.667 - 216.667 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (408) |
| 19:59.53 | LuitvD | hi |
| 20:00.21 | *** join/#openmoko gabaug (n=gabe@207-229-164-50.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.cable.rcn.com) |
| 20:01.08 | mikesh | hi, is this counter broken? everytime somebody type "counter" i see more and more days in P0 :O |
| 20:01.24 | *** join/#openmoko MetaBookfoziS (n=sajt@53d82b8d.adsl.enternet.hu) |
| 20:01.52 | LuitvD | mikesh: The p0 release gets postponed time after time |
| 20:03.35 | mikesh | LuitvD: oh, ok :) |
| 20:03.43 | *** join/#openmoko greentux (n=lemke@Z4c2d.z.pppool.de) |
| 20:06.03 | *** join/#openmoko clem-vangelis_ (n=vangelis@AOrleans-152-1-36-73.w90-21.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 20:06.23 | dougt | is anyone using the MokoMakefile and getting a build error when trying to build gta01-kernel because uboot-mkimage is non-existent? |
| 20:07.02 | *** join/#openmoko hoepen (n=hoepen@thor.hrz.uni-oldenburg.de) |
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| 20:09.16 | SpeedEvil | Q)Why did the multithreaded chicken cross the road? |
| 20:09.16 | SpeedEvil | A)to To other side. get the |
| 20:09.16 | SpeedEvil | Q)Why did the multithreaded chicken cross the road? |
| 20:09.17 | SpeedEvil | A)other to side. To the get |
| 20:11.30 | LuitvD | :P |
| 20:11.49 | LuitvD | I always control my legs in parallel... |
| 20:20.19 | buz | so you jump instead of walk |
| 20:22.49 | *** join/#openmoko MacNorth_ (n=daijobu@24.9.77.90) |
| 20:25.44 | buz | what do you need to use galileo, anyway |
| 20:25.46 | LuitvD | somehow the circuit is weird... |
| 20:26.00 | LuitvD | buz: we first need the sattelites :) |
| 20:26.16 | buz | well on the client |
| 20:28.10 | *** join/#openmoko amarsh04 (n=amarsh04@CPE-143-238-192-160.sa.bigpond.net.au) |
| 20:30.23 | *** join/#openmoko rwhitby (n=rwhitby@nslu2-linux/rwhitby) |
| 20:31.58 | SpeedEvil | There is nothing other than those few words. |
| 20:32.02 | buz | i now |
| 20:32.04 | buz | know |
| 20:32.10 | buz | but they dont parse very well |
| 20:32.15 | buz | aside of better than neo 1 |
| 20:32.19 | buz | which is kinda expected |
| 20:32.42 | buz | i wonder if they could really pull it off designing a new device until june |
| 20:32.43 | SpeedEvil | Faster CPU - I wonder if this may imply USB2 - on a faster SOC - which would be very nice. |
| 20:33.02 | buz | faster gsm -> edge |
| 20:33.10 | SpeedEvil | Possibly. |
| 20:33.21 | buz | well going to gprs class a would be stupid |
| 20:33.25 | buz | and umts is not really gsm anymore |
| 20:33.37 | denis^da | new device ? did I miss something ? :> |
| 20:33.42 | SpeedEvil | yeah - GPRS class A is another possibility - that I hope it's not doing. |
| 20:33.52 | buz | watch the fosdem video |
| 20:33.59 | buz | starting at say 30:10 |
| 20:34.00 | SpeedEvil | There was confirmation that P1 and P2 devices are not the same. |
| 20:34.00 | DesktopMa | I'd say yes please to a low end 2d accelerator. |
| 20:34.20 | buz | i think i'll hold out to p2 |
| 20:34.26 | mjr | ah, they announced that stuff there :) |
| 20:34.35 | buz | oh you know anything about that? |
| 20:34.42 | denis^da | yeah I watched it but half sleeping half awake yesterday evening .D |
| 20:34.54 | buz | sean oracle |
| 20:34.56 | mjr | not much, pretty much what you've heard, but a bit earlier in Tampere while sworn to secrecy ;) |
| 20:35.05 | koen | I got some good news on agpsd |
| 20:35.09 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 20:35.12 | koen | it won't be a binary blob |
| 20:35.17 | SpeedEvil | :)) |
| 20:35.21 | buz | open source? |
| 20:35.21 | koen | it will be a binary plugin to gpsd |
| 20:35.27 | SpeedEvil | Oh. |
| 20:35.28 | koen | so slighty better |
| 20:35.32 | SpeedEvil | So it is a blob. |
| 20:35.34 | denis^da | which normal person buys the phone 2 times ? :> |
| 20:35.34 | buz | still a blob |
| 20:35.35 | koen | and we get the standard api |
| 20:35.39 | SpeedEvil | how is a plugin not a blob? |
| 20:35.43 | buz | slightly less L but blob nevertheless |
| 20:36.47 | SpeedEvil | I'm sure it doesn't like you either. |
| 20:37.23 | SpeedEvil | GPS is handy for more things than just the position IMO. |
| 20:37.31 | buz | i wonder if p2 device will have other gps chip |
| 20:37.35 | denis^da | hmm it would be interesting if there will be more facts about the v2 device otherwise it is not really transparent from my point of view |
| 20:37.38 | koen | SpeedEvil: like correct time |
| 20:37.42 | SpeedEvil | Yeah. |
| 20:38.05 | SpeedEvil | Which means that you can do stuff like waking up at time -0.5s, listening for .1s, and going back to sleep if no signal. |
| 20:38.11 | koen | denis^da: I tried to get the people that know drunk, but they still wouldn't tell anything |
| 20:38.28 | denis^da | hmm |
| 20:38.36 | buz | should have called upon some hookers instead of beer |
| 20:38.45 | SpeedEvil | Saving lots of power for wifi and bluetooth. |
| 20:38.46 | denis^da | In my opinion it's quite the opposite of being open... |
| 20:38.47 | rwhitby | it would be commercial suicide to release details of v2 before v1 sales have started |
| 20:38.57 | SpeedEvil | Indeed. |
| 20:38.59 | denis^da | yeah commerical thats it |
| 20:39.00 | buz | possibly |
| 20:39.13 | buz | BUT: this way people may still wait |
| 20:39.16 | SpeedEvil | I suspect V1.5 hardware'll be available a little before mass market. |
| 20:39.17 | buz | then be disappointed |
| 20:39.41 | buz | they should go to e28 and get the e2881 with vga |
| 20:39.44 | SpeedEvil | It's been said that there will be credits for early adopters. |
| 20:39.48 | LuitvD | :P |
| 20:39.48 | denis^da | this secrets suck |
| 20:39.49 | SpeedEvil | Which is good. |
| 20:40.00 | buz | gimme some data about those "credits" |
| 20:40.02 | denis^da | there will be but how do they look like ... |
| 20:40.40 | buz | 10% off doesnt really matter |
| 20:40.43 | buz | 50% would |
| 20:40.50 | *** join/#openmoko _MacNorth (n=daijobu@c-75-71-250-33.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 20:40.52 | DesktopMa | is there a high res version of the moko presentation? |
| 20:40.54 | DesktopMa | can't read the slides |
| 20:41.04 | buz | i'd rather get the slides |
| 20:41.05 | rwhitby | denis^da: the openmoko project is about free software, not free hardware product plans |
| 20:41.23 | buz | not asking for free hardware |
| 20:41.23 | rwhitby | (nor free schematics, nor ....) |
| 20:41.32 | buz | just information to budget my purchasing decisions |
| 20:41.38 | denis^da | at the moment it's quite mysterious for me. I really like the phone but it would suckt if there will be a phone with more features 5 months later |
| 20:41.39 | SpeedEvil | The openmoko project is really about FIC making money. |
| 20:41.50 | buz | obviously |
| 20:41.57 | SpeedEvil | FIC at the moment are one of several companies called by nokia/... to make a new phone. |
| 20:42.00 | buz | but me buying stuff is about me getting the most for the least |
| 20:42.02 | SpeedEvil | Profit is small. |
| 20:42.15 | SpeedEvil | Sell to end-users directly - profit is big. |
| 20:42.26 | wbx | SpeedEvil: i see no problem in making money with openhardware. |
| 20:42.27 | SpeedEvil | Even if you have competitors in the same market. |
| 20:42.37 | SpeedEvil | Me neither. |
| 20:42.44 | rwhitby | SpeedEvil: that to, but the fact is that they've only ever promised that the software will be free (as in speech) - yet everyone continues to seem to expect them to open up absolutely everything (including future product plans). |
| 20:42.53 | buz | but if you're gonna go the "be fair route" you better stick to it |
| 20:42.53 | SpeedEvil | yeah. |
| 20:42.57 | koen | SpeedEvil: it's about creating new devices which make money |
| 20:43.02 | SpeedEvil | I'd like open schematics. |
| 20:43.08 | SpeedEvil | I really doubt it'll happen. |
| 20:43.11 | *** join/#openmoko cathal (n=cathal@89.100.102.170) |
| 20:43.17 | SpeedEvil | Unless anyone does the reverse engineering thing. |
| 20:43.27 | buz | open schematics is so niche it really doesnt pay for fix |
| 20:43.29 | buz | fic |
| 20:43.30 | DeVol | maybe they only want to patent good software ideas |
| 20:43.30 | denis^da | rwhitby, if we would talk about a V2 that would come out in 2008 that would be ok but not 4 months later ... |
| 20:43.31 | wbx | SpeedEvil: on Fosdem they speak open about their new business model. |
| 20:43.37 | rwhitby | buz: I don't think OpenMoko promised to "be fair" - they promised to open the phone software stack. that's all. |
| 20:43.39 | buz | denis^da: exactly |
| 20:43.47 | SpeedEvil | I know I'm going to be trying to find a way of getting the I2C bus accessible. |
| 20:43.52 | DeVol | or at least, some companies will |
| 20:43.54 | buz | rwhitby: seans rhetoric kinda implies being fair |
| 20:44.07 | rwhitby | implies != commits to |
| 20:44.12 | denis^da | buz, yeah I searched that sentence :) |
| 20:44.36 | buz | you dont want to piss off the very people that will make or break your platform |
| 20:44.52 | rwhitby | anyway, all I'm saying is that people shouldn't bust FIC's or OpenMoko's balls when they don't do things they never committed to do in the first place ... |
| 20:45.06 | buz | and if you drop much improved hardware upon without announcing you're gonna do so you WILL piss them off |
| 20:45.12 | koen | like renaming to GNU/FIC? |
| 20:45.48 | DesktopMa | hmm start of the presentation sounds like bullshit bingo material :P |
| 20:45.50 | buz | rwhitby: however, fic should expect to be held to higher standards than other cellphone makers now |
| 20:46.18 | rwhitby | buz: why? FIC is a hardware company. OpenMoko is the company that is producing a free phone software stack. |
| 20:46.31 | DeVol | the guy from trolltech at Fosdem mentioned more guys trying to open up the phone-software is a good thing |
| 20:46.31 | *** join/#openmoko cprf (n=rzinkov@oss-staff.rutgers.edu) |
| 20:46.33 | denis^da | rwhitby, I can understand your point. But at the moment they are not better than any other provider. |
| 20:46.52 | buz | so who owns openmoko ltd |
| 20:46.52 | DeVol | so far the interface to the GSM network is done via a closed chip, with AT-commands |
| 20:47.02 | koen | buz: openmoko inc |
| 20:47.07 | rwhitby | denis^da: why should they be? at the moment (i.e. before the OpenMoko movement takes off) it doesn't make them any more money. |
| 20:47.28 | buz | koen: i dont really care for legalese right now |
| 20:47.29 | denis^da | rwhitby, yeah that is right but FIC and the hardware NEO is connectet to OpenMoko. And if they piss people off with getting out one phone after the other. They won't any hardware. |
| 20:47.46 | denis^da | +sell |
| 20:47.55 | buz | exactly |
| 20:47.58 | buz | geeks remember well |
| 20:48.07 | rwhitby | Neo is only the first OpenMoko hardware. Should you apply the same arguments to Motorola or Nokia (cause OpenMoko *will* get ported to their phones)? |
| 20:48.20 | koen | so you will get pissed of when openmoko works on the htc universal as well? |
| 20:48.27 | buz | neo has official support for openmoko |
| 20:48.29 | buz | native even |
| 20:48.29 | rwhitby | koen: exactly |
| 20:48.30 | koen | since that's got better hardware, but didn't announce it? |
| 20:48.33 | denis^da | I don't think it will be ported to Nokia |
| 20:48.50 | denis^da | not with that freedom of accessing nearly every hardware |
| 20:49.08 | DeVol | nearly every hardware... |
| 20:49.16 | DeVol | but not the GSM chip |
| 20:49.17 | buz | if another vendor sells openmoko native phones, we will hold them to the same level |
| 20:49.28 | denis^da | at the nokia phones ? never |
| 20:49.31 | buz | as for porting openmoko to $hardware, thats another story |
| 20:49.45 | rwhitby | geeks may remember well, but geeks are a very small market, so a business person at FIC (or any other hardware manufacturer) probably wouldn't care. |
| 20:50.06 | buz | they will if their intended developers jump ship |
| 20:50.18 | rwhitby | buz: openmoko != FIC |
| 20:50.23 | koen | jump ship to exactly what? |
| 20:50.28 | rwhitby | developers are developing for openmoko, not FIC hardware |
| 20:50.32 | buz | sure |
| 20:50.51 | buz | but right now, fic hardware (and possibly the universal but that barely qualifies as a phone) are the only phones that really run it |
| 20:51.24 | DeVol | openmoko simply is the experiment from FIC to get the 'building blocks' out there, to see if new 'lifeforms' (neoforms) will be created by the community |
| 20:51.55 | DeVol | or rather, the experiment from this sean-dude, he mentioned at fosdem he still has to convince his boss about all this |
| 20:51.55 | buz | exactly |
| 20:52.03 | denis^da | DeVol, but that is a lot of marketing ;) |
| 20:52.13 | buz | its far from unheard of |
| 20:52.23 | buz | much cheaper than vista marketing in any case |
| 20:52.32 | koen | the neo, htc magician, htc universal and the motorola a780 have run openmoko last week |
| 20:52.49 | buz | as far as earth shattering platforms go, openmoko is a cheap one |
| 20:53.03 | buz | possibly earth shattering |
| 20:53.14 | pH5 | but the htc magician can't make calls because the dial button is off screen ;) |
| 20:53.19 | DesktopMa | :D |
| 20:53.37 | denis^da | In my opinion such a open mobile os needs open hardware to get everything out of it. |
| 20:53.42 | koen | pH5: I called that a 'minor issue' ;) |
| 20:56.34 | buz | can openmoko be run on tytn |
| 20:57.41 | buz | ah forget it, unsubsized tytn is way too expensive |
| 20:57.54 | buz | but the p990i has gotten quite reasonably prized later |
| 20:58.08 | buz | bummer the software is even worse than winmob |
| 21:00.08 | *** join/#openmoko dirakx (n=dirakx@69.79.145.81) |
| 21:12.21 | Elrond | How are the HTC thingies price And do they happen to run OM, or is that a a proper "supported" thing? |
| 21:12.21 | buz | LuitvD: http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS6946488091.html |
| 21:12.44 | buz | but the e2881 is muuuch sleeker |
| 21:13.19 | *** join/#openmoko _rob (n=rob@ACB097D9.ipt.aol.com) |
| 21:13.21 | buz | 2200mah is impressive though |
| 21:13.55 | buz | looks like it comes straight out of a happy meal or something |
| 21:14.08 | LuitvD | yeah... yuck |
| 21:14.17 | Stephmw | very ugly |
| 21:14.22 | CM | Very fat |
| 21:14.36 | Stephmw | mind you, to be fair, the Neo does look like it fits the OLPC family of products |
| 21:14.39 | KimuSan^ | damn the gupp is an ugly thingie |
| 21:14.49 | cjb | koen: ping |
| 21:14.49 | *** join/#openmoko jannu (n=jannu@hoas-fe34dd00-216.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 21:14.51 | buz | the guck looks like neo's evil twin |
| 21:14.55 | buz | VERY evil |
| 21:15.06 | buz | yeah neo looks like playmobil |
| 21:15.21 | buz | e2881 has the by far neatest linux phones so far |
| 21:15.26 | buz | (ok a1200 is neat too) |
| 21:15.50 | DesktopMa | v2 sounds awesome |
| 21:15.59 | DesktopMa | I'll still get v1 for dev etc though |
| 21:16.19 | stefan_schmidt | hmm, everybody talks about the e28, but has anybody asked them about source? |
| 21:16.33 | LuitvD | stefan_schmidt: both buz and me |
| 21:16.41 | stefan_schmidt | ok |
| 21:16.43 | buz | also about price |
| 21:16.47 | buz | no answer to either |
| 21:16.47 | stefan_schmidt | Waiting for reply? |
| 21:16.53 | stefan_schmidt | ah, ok |
| 21:16.54 | LuitvD | stefan_schmidt: did I show you the mail, or did I show mickey? :P |
| 21:16.55 | buz | yeah for a long while not |
| 21:16.56 | buz | now |
| 21:17.10 | buz | you did show it to me, that i know |
| 21:17.13 | stefan_schmidt | LuitvD: Must be mickey |
| 21:17.29 | buz | should have sent it to LaF0rge instead |
| 21:17.59 | LuitvD | no, wait, I showed rwhitby |
| 21:18.00 | LuitvD | :P |
| 21:18.03 | Stephmw | koen: don't forget to tag your fosdem photos with Fosdem 2007 |
| 21:18.03 | LuitvD | http://pastebin.com/887592 |
| 21:18.22 | buz | btw, rwhitby, heard anything about linksys nas200? |
| 21:18.29 | buz | thet hing doesnt seem to exist |
| 21:19.03 | LuitvD | damn, pastebin is slow :P |
| 21:19.09 | buz | never use pastebin.com |
| 21:19.15 | LuitvD | lol |
| 21:19.22 | LuitvD | pastebin.ca ftw |
| 21:19.56 | rwhitby | buz: nope |
| 21:20.09 | rwhitby | yet to ship as far as I kno |
| 21:20.21 | buz | no specs either right |
| 21:23.10 | LuitvD | stefan_schmidt: did I forget anything in that mail? |
| 21:23.39 | stefan_schmidt | LuitvD: You mean the mail you showed buz and not me? :) |
| 21:24.00 | LuitvD | ... |
| 21:24.07 | LuitvD | pastebin link... |
| 21:24.27 | rwhitby | mokomakefile finished an x86 build overnight. |
| 21:24.54 | DesktopMa | mine still isn't done :) |
| 21:25.05 | LuitvD | http://pastebin.ca/373569 |
| 21:25.06 | DesktopMa | stops on random stuff I'm missing all the time :P |
| 21:25.06 | LuitvD | there |
| 21:25.11 | CM | rwhitby: Cool :) |
| 21:25.12 | LuitvD | that one is faster :) |
| 21:25.30 | rwhitby | DesktopMa: that just means you didn't complete step 1 properly :-) |
| 21:25.44 | *** join/#openmoko fijal (n=fijal@host-53-19.compi.net.pl) |
| 21:25.44 | DesktopMa | pfff, makefile should get what it needs ;) |
| 21:25.52 | *** part/#openmoko fijal (n=fijal@host-53-19.compi.net.pl) |
| 21:26.23 | rwhitby | DesktopMa: absolutely not. Too many hosts OS's (that I can't test) to support that. |
| 21:26.33 | DesktopMa | :D |
| 21:27.41 | LuitvD | stefan_schmidt: http://pastebin.ca/373569, what do you think? did I forget anything? |
| 21:28.37 | stefan_schmidt | LuitvD: Let me read... |
| 21:29.07 | LuitvD | stefan_schmidt: no speedreading? |
| 21:29.10 | LuitvD | :) |
| 21:31.56 | stefan_schmidt | LuitvD: Looks ok. It's a polite start. Keep me informed. |
| 21:32.32 | LuitvD | stefan_schmidt: I will :) |
| 21:33.15 | LuitvD | stefan_schmidt: (as soon as I can't stop talking about how great e28 is, you'll know I had a response :) ) |
| 21:33.28 | koen | Stephmw: it seems my flickr uploader messed up the tags |
| 21:33.29 | stefan_schmidt | heh |
| 21:33.36 | *** join/#openmoko SpeedEvil (n=mauve@tor/regular/SpeedEvil) |
| 21:33.56 | Stephmw | koen: drat |
| 21:34.18 | Stephmw | koen: I'm going through my shots now, selecting which ones I'll postprocess for flickr |
| 21:34.21 | CM | LuitvD: Only qvga, and sucky battery, but otherwise it looks nice :) |
| 21:34.33 | LuitvD | CM: what? |
| 21:34.48 | LuitvD | QVGA is big enaugh for me... |
| 21:34.49 | CM | LuitvD: e2881? |
| 21:34.51 | LuitvD | and the battery? |
| 21:34.56 | LuitvD | what's wrong with that? |
| 21:35.07 | CM | Talk time 3 hours (either VoIP or GSM); Standby 120 hours |
| 21:35.18 | *** join/#openmoko Zoolooc_ (n=Zoolooc@p5495029C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 21:35.34 | LuitvD | CM: you think the neo can do better? |
| 21:35.52 | CM | Probably not, considering the screen |
| 21:35.57 | LuitvD | :) |
| 21:36.10 | CM | But I hope it can with that nokia battery |
| 21:36.10 | koen | Stephmw: it seems I missed meeting you at fosdem |
| 21:36.27 | Stephmw | koen: yeah, I missed everyone in here :( |
| 21:36.29 | CM | xx-c5 or something (Can't remember the first two letters) |
| 21:36.38 | Stephmw | koen: I didn't realise the Java track would take so much of my time |
| 21:36.49 | DeVol | CM: where did you find the fosdem presentation? |
| 21:36.56 | LuitvD | BL-5C |
| 21:37.21 | LuitvD | most BL-5C batteries available are 850mAh |
| 21:37.21 | LuitvD | :P |
| 21:37.25 | CM | DeVol: It's on google video |
| 21:37.32 | buz | i think i goto sleep |
| 21:37.33 | DeVol | k tnx |
| 21:37.34 | buz | night |
| 21:37.34 | CM | DeVol: And also as a downloadable avi |
| 21:37.45 | rwhitby | DeVol: the location was posted to community list |
| 21:37.48 | LuitvD | CM: where as an avi? |
| 21:37.50 | CM | http://hentges.net/tmp/FOSDEM/ |
| 21:37.55 | CM | Same movie, two sizes |
| 21:37.59 | SpeedEvil | Is the 350M version available anywhere? |
| 21:38.12 | Stephmw | surely it'll hit piratebay soon |
| 21:38.15 | SpeedEvil | I want to try cropping and perspectiving so it gets only the screen. |
| 21:38.23 | DeVol | well i was there live, but just wondering if there was more where that came from :) |
| 21:38.25 | SpeedEvil | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:38.30 | CM | SpeedEvil: That would be sweet :) |
| 21:38.40 | CM | Good presentation.. Worth watching |
| 21:38.45 | SpeedEvil | Yep. |
| 21:38.57 | Stephmw | DeVol: agreed - I was there too... by the door. If you grumbled at the lights coming on a few times... one of those was me ;) |
| 21:39.02 | CM | rwhitby: Do you have the 350 mb version to send to SpeedEvil? :) |
| 21:39.03 | rwhitby | SpeedEvil: there is an official FOSDEM video that hasn't been released yet as well |
| 21:39.11 | SpeedEvil | Oh - OK. |
| 21:39.17 | CM | Nice |
| 21:39.27 | DeVol | Stephmw: hehe |
| 21:39.29 | rwhitby | CM: not any more |
| 21:39.30 | DesktopMa | how much do the gps affect price? |
| 21:39.31 | SpeedEvil | I was just wanting to get the one on the wiki good, in case it gets /.'d |
| 21:39.50 | SpeedEvil | I'd guess the GPS component parts BOM is around $15 |
| 21:40.04 | SpeedEvil | Which probably adds $30 to the cost. |
| 21:40.27 | koen | Stephmw: yeah, fosdem is just too much fun for only two days |
| 21:40.31 | cjb | SpeedEvil: really think it's that high? that's usually higher than the CPU for high-volume builds. |
| 21:40.48 | SpeedEvil | There is lots of stuff. |
| 21:40.52 | greentux | stefan_schmidt: nice talk @fosdem... good |
| 21:40.57 | buz | i think i read about 5USD for hammerhead somewhere |
| 21:41.10 | SpeedEvil | Then you've got the RG frontend. |
| 21:41.20 | SpeedEvil | The SAW crystal filters |
| 21:41.27 | SpeedEvil | the filters, the active antenna. |
| 21:41.34 | stefan_schmidt | greentux: Thanks. First english talk so far. Anyway, I'm more or less happy with it. |
| 21:42.28 | SpeedEvil | Plus, the seperate cost of having to attach the antenna, and fit it in the case manually. |
| 21:42.51 | greentux | stefan_schmidt: yes, was interesting. hope the moko stuff will come up on that thingy |
| 21:43.00 | DesktopMa | SpeedEvil: I see. |
| 21:43.12 | SpeedEvil | I wouldn't be astonished to hear $10 - but probably not much less. I could of course be completely wrong. |
| 21:43.26 | DesktopMa | how much would edge/3g affect it? I don't have much knowledge about hardware |
| 21:43.33 | DeVol | stefan_schmidt: you were the technical guy in the fosdem talk? |
| 21:43.40 | SpeedEvil | As I understand it, GPS is much much more. |
| 21:43.44 | SpeedEvil | Err |
| 21:43.50 | SpeedEvil | 3G is much mucm more |
| 21:43.54 | DesktopMa | I see |
| 21:43.58 | SpeedEvil | The modules are more complex. |
| 21:44.01 | DesktopMa | will, I'd throw in 50$ for edge+4g |
| 21:44.02 | DesktopMa | atleast |
| 21:44.02 | stefan_schmidt | DeVol: No, not at the OpenMoko talk. I gave one about OpenEZX |
| 21:44.05 | SpeedEvil | and higher tech. |
| 21:44.11 | DesktopMa | * |
| 21:44.12 | DesktopMa | 3 |
| 21:44.14 | SpeedEvil | I'd say that's not unreasonable. |
| 21:44.18 | *** join/#openmoko koen (n=koen@dominion.kabel.utwente.nl) |
| 21:44.26 | SpeedEvil | Which translates to $100 or so on the sticker. |
| 21:44.38 | DesktopMa | I'd buy it. :P |
| 21:45.34 | DesktopMa | low end nvidia 2d accelerator would be extremely sweet too. but would require a bigger hardware design change unfortunatly. |
| 21:45.51 | SpeedEvil | And more importantly, a seperate chip. |
| 21:45.56 | DesktopMa | yep |
| 21:45.58 | SpeedEvil | And much more complex memory bus. |
| 21:46.22 | DesktopMa | but it would sweet it up quite a bit |
| 21:46.22 | DesktopMa | and lower power usage |
| 21:46.35 | SpeedEvil | I don't know. I don't really see where the 2D hardware need comes from. |
| 21:46.47 | SpeedEvil | Unless you want to do hardware wipes. |
| 21:47.22 | SpeedEvil | Zoomed video really helps too, though QVGA mode almost works for that. |
| 21:47.37 | DesktopMa | cpu usage, image processing, games |
| 21:47.52 | DesktopMa | MOTORAZR V3xx has a 5300 |
| 21:48.10 | DesktopMa | or, no, 4800 I think |
| 21:49.20 | SpeedEvil | I was surprised on looking at MP3 chip powers. I was under the impression that feeding the MP3 stream to a hardware decoder in 'slow mode' would be a win. |
| 21:49.31 | SpeedEvil | It's not, it's more or less a wash. |
| 21:49.50 | SpeedEvil | You have to turn the CPU off, and have a chip reading the flash itsself to actually win. |
| 21:50.18 | DesktopMa | yeah I noticed the advantages in lower cpu speed wasn't really that ibg |
| 21:50.30 | denis^da | LuitvD, keep us informed if you get replay to your mail :) |
| 21:50.35 | denis^da | reply |
| 21:50.46 | LuitvD | denis^da: I will |
| 21:50.58 | LuitvD | denis^da: I think I'll post it on the wiki, if the response is promising |
| 21:51.42 | denis^da | LuitvD, yeah that would be cool. |
| 21:51.44 | SpeedEvil | It's not that bad. It's good, in combination with active mode - with MP3, it saves quite a lot of power if you can blip between the modes decoding MP3. It adds better than half to the mp3 play time. |
| 21:55.38 | vmaster | do you have numbers on the power usage in normal vs slow mode? |
| 21:55.53 | fluffs | SLOW is unlikely to be powerful enough to play mp3s |
| 21:59.20 | vmaster | mhh, yeah, definitely, at 10-20 mhz you wont be able to decode, but maybe decode at full speed to a buffer and then play in slow mode? at 266mhz you should be able to decode quite some in advance? |
| 21:59.58 | fluffs | slow only gets you 12MHz or lower |
| 22:00.26 | fluffs | and iirc, you need at least 20MHz to do mp3 |
| 22:01.25 | SpeedEvil | Slow is 12, yes. |
| 22:01.42 | fluffs | 12MHz divided |
| 22:01.44 | SpeedEvil | IIRC someone said that fast gets you mp3 with 1/3 CPU |
| 22:01.59 | fluffs | iirc, mp3 can be done in about 10-15% CPU |
| 22:02.12 | SpeedEvil | So, the '1/2 extra' number was based on that. |
| 22:02.13 | fluffs | it gets worse if you don't use integer calculations |
| 22:02.33 | cbpage | if slow has a lower voltage it'll take less power |
| 22:02.34 | SpeedEvil | In that case... |
| 22:02.35 | *** join/#openmoko Tv (n=tv@65.212.203.130) |
| 22:02.43 | SpeedEvil | it's a bit better than that. |
| 22:02.46 | cbpage | otherwise it'll be a wash i think |
| 22:02.51 | SpeedEvil | It's not. |
| 22:03.02 | fluffs | slow turns off the PLLs, which take a bit of power |
| 22:03.15 | SpeedEvil | Slow mode uses 50mW or so (inc RAM and stuff) active-but-idle uses 150mW |
| 22:03.16 | fluffs | and the core consumption draws about 1/2 less too |
| 22:03.36 | SpeedEvil | So any time you can swap active-idle for slow is a win. |
| 22:04.41 | fluffs | annoyingly it takes 150-300uS for the PLLs to stabalise changing back to NORMAL |
| 22:05.03 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Any idea how complex (including power wise) the switching to/from slow-mode is? |
| 22:05.04 | fluffs | so there is a penalty involved |
| 22:05.25 | Elrond | Ahh, fluffs has the numbers. ;) |
| 22:05.48 | Elrond | 0.3ms is a lot... |
| 22:06.07 | LuitvD | aha, at some places chinese newyear isn't over yet :) |
| 22:06.12 | SpeedEvil | NoAh - I hadn't got that far. |
| 22:06.19 | SpeedEvil | Damn. |
| 22:06.25 | SpeedEvil | .3ms is a big click. |
| 22:06.36 | SpeedEvil | I wonder if you can prestart teh PLLs |
| 22:06.41 | fluffs | no |
| 22:06.45 | SpeedEvil | And only switch when stable. |
| 22:06.56 | SpeedEvil | :( |
| 22:07.26 | fluffs | but during the stablisation period it outputs the pll input clock |
| 22:07.29 | fluffs | iirdc |
| 22:07.37 | fluffs | still got the cpufreq code to finish |
| 22:07.37 | Elrond | Right. I just wanted to suggest "switch to slow mode" where x86 does HLT to idle. ;) Of course that's a bad idea with 0.3ms "get back to normailty". |
| 22:08.01 | fluffs | Elrond: there's a seperate cpu idle which doesn't shtdown the PLLs |
| 22:08.06 | fluffs | just the ARM core |
| 22:08.24 | Elrond | But that's active-idle with 150mW? |
| 22:08.31 | SpeedEvil | That doesn't save that much power though. |
| 22:08.36 | vmaster | mhh, the user's manual says that you can first enable the pll, then later return to normal mode |
| 22:09.03 | vmaster | so you should be able to prestart the PLL |
| 22:09.12 | SpeedEvil | So, that would otentialoly work with clickless audiol. |
| 22:09.35 | fluffs | vmaster: you may as well switch to the pll and start it |
| 22:10.07 | fluffs | since SLOW and PLL input clocks are the same thing |
| 22:11.17 | vmaster | i guess the point of pre-starting the pll was to stay in SLOW for as long as possible without potentially beeing too late for the necessary decoding |
| 22:11.27 | Elrond | (of course it's confusing to me, that slow takes 50mW, while normal+IDLE takes 150mW) |
| 22:11.39 | fluffs | the PLLs burn quite a bit of power, iirc |
| 22:11.50 | SpeedEvil | You want a stable clock if you are tying to throw samples at teh DAC reliably though. |
| 22:12.01 | SpeedEvil | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:12.23 | SpeedEvil | .3ms of dead time = click |
| 22:12.28 | fluffs | as i said earlier, the PLLs switch the input clock to the output dring the stabilisation |
| 22:12.36 | vmaster | SpeedEvil: ah, ok, that's guaranteed |
| 22:12.54 | vmaster | SpeedEvil: you'll always be running either at the input clock or on the pll |
| 22:13.01 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - The .3ms is the time needed to switch from slow to normal. The CPU -- according to fluffs -- runs in SLOW while switching. |
| 22:13.07 | SpeedEvil | But is there a "I stabilised" interrupt? |
| 22:13.13 | fluffs | no |
| 22:13.32 | Elrond | fluffs - So the CPU just switches to normal at an unknown time? |
| 22:13.50 | fluffs | see the PLL LOCKTIME register |
| 22:14.43 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=bob@p213.54.163.199.tisdip.tiscali.de) |
| 22:14.56 | SpeedEvil | On a sort-of-related topic - the USB controller doesn't work in slow does it. |
| 22:15.02 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Has the WM codec some buffer? If yes, and 12MHz are enough for 0.3ms, there shouldn't be a click. |
| 22:15.17 | SpeedEvil | Err - no. |
| 22:15.19 | fluffs | hmm, maybe i've got this wrong |
| 22:15.25 | SpeedEvil | There is AIUI no buffer at all. |
| 22:15.31 | SpeedEvil | It's just an ADC, with no fifo. |
| 22:16.36 | fluffs | gah, wrong, during locktime FCLK is not supplied |
| 22:16.55 | fluffs | but you can restart the PLL before exiting SLOW |
| 22:17.14 | SpeedEvil | The WM* product info sheet makes no mention of fifo |
| 22:17.23 | SpeedEvil | and I don't see it on the diagram, so I'd say no. |
| 22:17.47 | SpeedEvil | :( |
| 22:17.53 | fluffs | though measurments tend to suggest that it does lock down to EXTCLK |
| 22:17.59 | vmaster | "During PLL lock time, the FCLK becomes SLOW clock." |
| 22:18.40 | SpeedEvil | In the USB section it mentions 'PCLK >20MHZ for this to work' - I assume in slow mode, PCLK = 12MHz? |
| 22:18.49 | SpeedEvil | So USB won't work in slow? |
| 22:19.17 | fluffs | SpeedEvil: I guess it will be still divided by the same chain, so will be it will FCLK / (HDIV+PDIV) |
| 22:19.26 | Elrond | Well, usb hopefully means power... so no real need for slow mode? |
| 22:19.42 | SpeedEvil | True - I though the bluetooth module was USB |
| 22:20.05 | SpeedEvil | So no bluetooth in slow mode - if that's right. |
| 22:20.07 | Elrond | Ohh. I have no idea, how the BT module is connected to the SoC. |
| 22:20.16 | vmaster | SpeedEvil: it is, according to the wiki |
| 22:20.19 | stefan_schmidt | usb |
| 22:20.22 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03laforge * r1138 10/trunk/oe/classes/sourcepkg.bbclass: (log message trimmed) |
| 22:20.22 | CIA-7 | openmoko: some packages (the only known so far is base-files) end up with src_dir=/ and |
| 22:20.22 | CIA-7 | openmoko: thus want to include the contents of the whole buildhost filesystem in their |
| 22:20.23 | CIA-7 | openmoko: source package. |
| 22:20.23 | CIA-7 | openmoko: This is not a fix, but a workaround. If the path is '/', we don't create |
| 22:20.23 | CIA-7 | openmoko: the source backage but rather print an error message into |
| 22:20.25 | CIA-7 | openmoko: $HOME/openembedded-source-missing.log |
| 22:20.36 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03laforge * r1139 10/trunk/oe/packages/linux/ (linux-gta01_2.6.20.1.bb linux-gta01_2.6.20.bb): we don't need two timestamps in the filename |
| 22:20.59 | SpeedEvil | The LCD is also unclear - the product page linked to says it's got memory. |
| 22:21.12 | SpeedEvil | But the controllers listed are simple dumb ones with no memory. |
| 22:21.40 | *** join/#openmoko Tv (n=tv@65.212.203.130) |
| 22:21.49 | SpeedEvil | Though that's less of an issue, as the backlight itself will use 150mW or so, even dimmed a bit. |
| 22:22.09 | DesktopMa | the lcd does keep a frame, I hope? |
| 22:22.34 | fluffs | probably not, most lcds will decay if not refreshed |
| 22:22.54 | DesktopMa | are there any dedicated refresher? or does the cpu have to do it constantly |
| 22:22.57 | LuitvD | couldn't the controller refresh from ram? |
| 22:23.09 | SpeedEvil | The LCD page says it's got RAM. |
| 22:23.14 | fluffs | yes, but the controller is using the HCLK |
| 22:23.14 | SpeedEvil | But... |
| 22:23.33 | fluffs | so you'll end up with Audio and LCD DMA competing with CPU code fetches |
| 22:23.40 | SpeedEvil | We really need to see actual datasheets for the LCD. |
| 22:23.47 | SpeedEvil | To see if it supports lower clock rates. |
| 22:24.06 | DesktopMa | *2d chip cough* :P |
| 22:24.10 | SpeedEvil | For example, a 'slowscan' mode - update at 3Hz. |
| 22:24.34 | SpeedEvil | And refresh from internal memory. |
| 22:25.01 | SpeedEvil | (3hz = 60Hz / (266/12)) |
| 22:25.04 | DesktopMa | 640*480 2xx mhz, will the cpu have time for anything else? :) |
| 22:25.25 | SpeedEvil | A non-trivial fraction of the memory bandwidth is used for that. |
| 22:25.33 | SpeedEvil | At 60Hz, it's a lot of data. |
| 22:25.44 | SpeedEvil | It'll use a fair bit less power in QVGA mode. |
| 22:25.53 | SpeedEvil | If only from the memory bus lower activity. |
| 22:26.29 | SpeedEvil | My laptop uses measurably less power in 4 bit X, than 24. |
| 22:26.37 | DesktopMa | does it purely double the pixels in qvga mode? |
| 22:26.50 | SpeedEvil | It's a LCD command. |
| 22:26.52 | fluffs | trouble is that the memory needs 64uS refresh, so you'll also burn more bus time in memory refresh as the memory bus slows down |
| 22:26.53 | SpeedEvil | IIRC |
| 22:27.03 | Magon | is it normal that I have not maganed to made rootfs since openmoko source releases?? |
| 22:27.47 | SpeedEvil | 64us? |
| 22:27.59 | Vegar | µs? |
| 22:28.21 | rwhitby | Magon: definitely not normal. I build an x86 rootfs overnight. |
| 22:28.34 | SpeedEvil | Sounds faster than I expected. |
| 22:28.50 | rwhitby | (using mokomakefile, and just changing build/conf/local.conf MACHINE to x86 |
| 22:29.14 | Magon | rwhitby: ok...i am building kernel 3-time today...dont know why... |
| 22:29.24 | Magon | rwhitby: i have switched to mokofile :-) |
| 22:29.36 | fluffs | kautobuild goes through a good 43 configs twice a day |
| 22:29.39 | Magon | rwhitby: did it any error or not ? |
| 22:29.41 | SpeedEvil | 64ms says the datasheet. |
| 22:29.43 | vmaster | isn't sdram refresh ~64ms |
| 22:29.47 | fluffs | 64ms |
| 22:29.47 | vmaster | yeah |
| 22:29.49 | rwhitby | Magon: you're rebuilding things cause openmoko core team has chosen to set svnnow on all openmoko packages |
| 22:29.54 | rwhitby | Magon: no errors |
| 22:30.20 | LuitvD | rwhitby: do you have any idea why my make halts on perl-native? |
| 22:30.31 | fluffs | iirc, its about 64uS per refesh access |
| 22:30.33 | rwhitby | no, cause I haven't seen a pastebin yet ... |
| 22:30.36 | LuitvD | rwhitby: is perl-native necessary? |
| 22:30.56 | *** join/#openmoko tr2x (n=alvar@80-218-185-55.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 22:31.00 | rwhitby | everything OE builds is necessary. |
| 22:31.56 | vmaster | you need 8192 refresh cycles in 64ms |
| 22:32.05 | LuitvD | rwhitby: http://pastebin.ca/373653 |
| 22:32.36 | DesktopMa | http://www.nvidia.com/object/hh_compare.html |
| 22:32.39 | LuitvD | rwhitby: is that just a development-package I haven't got installed? |
| 22:32.45 | Magon | rwhitby: ok...so just doing make setup; make openmoko-devel-image should work out of the box? |
| 22:33.08 | DesktopMa | if you have all the requirements |
| 22:33.16 | DesktopMa | so basically no, if you're like me |
| 22:33.27 | Magon | requirements? |
| 22:33.32 | DesktopMa | then no |
| 22:33.32 | DesktopMa | :P |
| 22:33.45 | rwhitby | LuitvD: never seen that one before |
| 22:33.45 | Magon | OE is evil |
| 22:33.56 | LuitvD | rwhitby: lol :) me neither |
| 22:33.59 | woglinde | magon no |
| 22:34.25 | LuitvD | rwhitby: I never heard of perl-native before, and can't find it in my package lists... |
| 22:34.42 | LuitvD | rwhitby: and google has got only a few hits... |
| 22:34.59 | rwhitby | perl-native is the perl that OE builts on the build host |
| 22:35.46 | LuitvD | can I disable it? |
| 22:35.49 | rwhitby | Magon: feel free to use a different build system - let us know when it's ready to compile :-) |
| 22:36.55 | rwhitby | LuitvD: what build host OS are you using again? |
| 22:37.04 | Magon | rwhitby: i know that OE is the best..but it a bit irritate me not to manage to build it after week trying |
| 22:37.16 | fluffs | yes, thats an order of magnitude diff... about 7uS... i think we set 6.4uS to be sure |
| 22:37.31 | Magon | and i is not first time i work with embedded devices, and not first time i do builds or programing |
| 22:37.50 | Magon | so...OE is just a bit different than everything i have seen so far |
| 22:37.59 | DesktopMa | :) |
| 22:38.02 | LuitvD | rwhitby: Ubuntu 7.04 (Feisty Fawn Herd 4) |
| 22:38.17 | rwhitby | Magon: I think your expectations are set a bit too high for the current state of this project's build infrastructure. |
| 22:39.13 | rwhitby | remember that you are being let into the *development* cycle of openmoko, you are not using a released product. it's not even an *alpha* release yet. |
| 22:39.22 | SpeedEvil | Wave fluffs. |
| 22:39.33 | Magon | rwhitby: you are right that building gpe-image is a bit easier.. |
| 22:39.37 | SpeedEvil | Thanks. |
| 22:40.00 | Magon | but main thing is to get enviroment working so i can start actually developing |
| 22:40.11 | Magon | mayby i should start developing build system :-) |
| 22:40.18 | rwhitby | Magon: right - that's why I developed MokoMakefile ... |
| 22:40.35 | rwhitby | (to enable people to get OE/OpenMoko build system working quickly) |
| 22:40.48 | LuitvD | rwhitby: and it's a plain i386 install because of x64 driver issues... |
| 22:41.00 | Magon | rwhitby: i understand...and have to find the difference between my enviroment and mokomakefile one |
| 22:41.11 | rwhitby | LuitvD: no idea - all I can say is that it builds for me on Debian Edge. |
| 22:41.34 | LuitvD | hmm |
| 22:42.00 | LuitvD | rwhitby: do you know if there's someone who has built a recent revision for qemuarm? |
| 22:42.02 | rwhitby | like the dash problem, perhaps Ubuntu 7 is too bleeding edge for OE? |
| 22:42.13 | LuitvD | dash problem? |
| 22:42.32 | rwhitby | LuitvD: /bin/sh linked to /bin/dash, which broke lots of (already broken, but working) things. |
| 22:42.41 | jebba | LuitvD, i've done semi-recent versions. |
| 22:42.49 | jebba | i guess it just depends what you think is recent ;) |
| 22:43.10 | jebba | i've also done it on fc6/i386, but now on debian etch x86_64 |
| 22:43.21 | jebba | with qemuarm targets |
| 22:43.29 | LuitvD | jebba: more recent then the one I have... |
| 22:43.40 | rwhitby | jebba: x86 built fine last night for me too |
| 22:43.40 | LuitvD | jebba: I have your second build for qemuarm |
| 22:43.55 | *** part/#openmoko dirakx (n=dirakx@69.79.145.81) |
| 22:44.04 | jebba | i haven't seen too much change since my builds except with uboot, and that doesnt work under qemu anyway (as i understand it) |
| 22:44.12 | Magon | rwhitby: going to do another clean build...it have to work... |
| 22:44.22 | LuitvD | jebba: that rotation thing? isn't that fixed yet? |
| 22:44.53 | Magon | there was hack to stop uboot from constant building....do anyone know what was it? |
| 22:45.05 | denis^da | so good night guys |
| 22:45.12 | denis^da | I'm leaving now |
| 22:45.15 | LuitvD | 'night denis^da |
| 22:45.25 | jebba | LuitvD, well the rotation thing was something I added for my own set up. My latest image has /no/ changes to it by my and it has some hack that makes `vi` and such work on the console. |
| 22:45.26 | denis^da | night LuitvD ;) |
| 22:46.05 | LuitvD | jebba: where can I find that latest image? |
| 22:46.25 | jebba | the OE/OM build process took awhile for me to get straight (i think a lot of it due to being two split projects), but in the end I think OE's build system is plenty nice :) |
| 22:46.54 | rwhitby | Magon: the patch to stop continuous rebulding (but with the side effect of not building new versions automatically) is in the patches/openmoko-HEAD/series file - just uncomment the first two patches there. |
| 22:47.17 | Magon | thx |
| 22:47.33 | Magon | i know the sideeffect but it is better to build it separatly |
| 22:47.59 | jebba | LuitvD, same place as always: ftp://ftp.blagblagblag.org/pub/BLAG/developers/jebba/openmoko |
| 22:48.14 | Magon | rwhitby: the patch dir is yours? |
| 22:48.59 | Magon | rwhitby: i will try to made clean build with mokofile from scratch again and if i get an error i will try to fix it and made a patch |
| 22:49.24 | rwhitby | Magon: yes, that is the mokomakefile patchset |
| 22:50.05 | Magon | rwhitby: mokofile uses openmoko SVN head and OE svn from some date..right/ |
| 22:50.23 | LuitvD | jebba: thanks :) |
| 22:50.30 | LuitvD | jebba: now I'll just bookmark that url :P |
| 22:50.48 | rwhitby | Magon: yes, as recommended by OM core devs |
| 22:51.03 | rwhitby | ... OE monotone from some revision ... |
| 22:51.26 | Magon | rwhitby: ok..after i have this one working..mayby i will try to get head of everything..better for bugfixing end developement |
| 22:51.57 | LuitvD | jebba: LOL, I can't touch the crosshairs :P |
| 22:52.02 | rwhitby | Magon: if you want head of everything, just build from OE head without any openmoko svn stuff - koen has that working. |
| 22:52.33 | rwhitby | koen does the "OE for everything" build, and I do the "replicate what OM core devs are using" build. |
| 22:52.36 | Magon | rwhitby: but i probably need openmoko stuff |
| 22:52.46 | rwhitby | Magon: koen has merged it all |
| 22:52.46 | _muk_ | NOTE: fetch http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/js/js-1.5.tar.gz |
| 22:52.48 | _muk_ | 23:47:07 ERROR 404: Not Found. |
| 22:52.58 | Magon | whole openmoko is in OE? |
| 22:53.07 | rwhitby | Magon: I believe so. |
| 22:53.14 | Magon | will try |
| 22:53.33 | Magon | if he keeps it sync..i can build just OE head |
| 22:53.40 | _muk_ | Anyone else seeing this? |
| 22:54.06 | Magon | but first..keep night build of mokofile just like it is ...so i can have at least anything working |
| 22:54.14 | rwhitby | yep, but there is no guarantee you are building what the OM core devs are building then, so be careful with bug reports (99% should be relevant, be careful of the 1%) |
| 22:54.27 | rwhitby | (if you use OE head for everything) |
| 22:54.28 | _muk_ | it seems like there is only js-1.60.tar.gz |
| 22:54.40 | Magon | rwhitby: that is my point..what are bugreports relevant to? |
| 22:54.44 | rwhitby | _muk_: make setup should have downloaded that for you |
| 22:54.55 | _muk_ | hm... |
| 22:55.10 | Magon | i want to build anything where developement will be posible and relevant and relevant bugreports |
| 22:55.23 | rwhitby | Magon: well, I have taken the position that we should replicate what the core OM devs are building, and report bugs against that, so as not to cause them to waste time looking at bugs that they can't replicate. |
| 22:55.25 | _muk_ | runned it just before make openmoko-devel-image |
| 22:55.26 | Magon | mstly developement is relevant just against head |
| 22:55.48 | Magon | rwhitby: ok.. |
| 22:55.55 | rwhitby | koen has taken the (equally valid) position of getting everything in OE head as soon as possible. |
| 22:55.56 | _muk_ | make openmoko-devel-image tries to fetch version 1.5, but there seems to be only 1.6 available on ftp.mozilla.org |
| 22:56.10 | rwhitby | the two positions should merge into one at some point in the future. |
| 22:56.34 | jebba | LuitvD, re: crosshairs, read the README ;) |
| 22:57.03 | LuitvD | jebba: thanks again :) |
| 22:57.39 | jebba | _muk_, see the HOWTO Build page or whatever under "fixes' |
| 22:58.31 | jebba | _muk_, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Building_OpenMoko_from_scratch#OpenEmbedded_build:_fixes |
| 22:58.45 | Magon | to prevent uboot from building..make setup-patches, uncoment line, and make setup-patches..or what to propagate it? |
| 22:59.38 | _muk_ | jebba: Thanx, didn't realize there was fixes for the mokomakefile... |
| 22:59.49 | LuitvD | jebba: do you know of a workaround to show the cursor? |
| 23:00.21 | _muk_ | hm... |
| 23:00.25 | _muk_ | 1 out of 1 hunk FAILED -- rejects in file trunk/oe/packages/linux/linux-gta01_2.6.20.1.bb |
| 23:00.28 | jebba | _muk_, ah, i think mokomakefile fixes those issues though. You do `make setup` ? |
| 23:00.35 | _muk_ | when running make update |
| 23:00.51 | _muk_ | well did it a couple of hours ago |
| 23:01.14 | _muk_ | 1 out of 1 hunk FAILED -- rejects in file trunk/oe/packages/linux/linux-gta01_2.6.20.bb |
| 23:01.19 | jebba | LuitvD, uh, that README is really short. And one thing it addresses is showing the cursor... |
| 23:01.42 | philippe | _muk_: sounds like you are pulling from svn and OE tries to apply an outdated patch |
| 23:01.58 | jebba | _muk_, not sure about the patch, usually you can just ctrl-d and keep going (depends where you saw it i guess) |
| 23:02.05 | LuitvD | jebba: is it? :| |
| 23:02.14 | LuitvD | jebba: need to clean my glasses I guess |
| 23:02.19 | _muk_ | philippe: I have only followed the instructions on http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile |
| 23:02.26 | jebba | To see the cursor, change /etc/matchbox/session SHOWCURSOR="yes" |
| 23:02.30 | Magon | rwhitby: how to propagate the change in patches/openmoko-HEAD/series? |
| 23:02.31 | _muk_ | philippe: and then I ran make update |
| 23:02.38 | LuitvD | jebba: damn, you're right... :S |
| 23:02.50 | LuitvD | jebba: my eyes must be really tired... |
| 23:02.55 | jebba | heh.. np |
| 23:03.04 | LuitvD | jebba: sorry to have bothered you (again) :P |
| 23:03.13 | CoreDump|home | re |
| 23:04.12 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03rwhitby * r19 10mokomakefile/trunk/Makefile: Touch the do_fetch stamps when downloading missing upstream sources. |
| 23:04.47 | rwhitby | _muk_: try "make update setup" now - it will download the missing sources and touch the stamp files so OE doesn't try and download them again. |
| 23:05.08 | rwhitby | Magon: make update-patches |
| 23:05.12 | philippe | _muk_: there you go :-) |
| 23:05.31 | Magon | thx |
| 23:05.34 | _muk_ | rwhitby: thx, saw your commit. However I now have another problem with a patch that doesn't apply |
| 23:06.42 | rwhitby | _muk_: either your openmoko svn or your mokomakefile patches are out of date. |
| 23:06.49 | rwhitby | make update *should* fix that |
| 23:07.06 | rwhitby | try it now, and pastebin the whole log if it does not |
| 23:07.20 | *** join/#openmoko zween (n=zween@80-47-43-169.lond-hex.dynamic.dial.as9105.com) |
| 23:07.20 | *** join/#openmoko _MacNorth (n=daijobu@c-75-71-250-33.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 23:08.39 | CoreDump|home | counter |
| 23:08.39 | aloril | P0: a week, 2 days 12:51:20 (0.536 - 9.536 days); P1: 23.536 - 33.536; P2: 186.536 - 216.536 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (409) |
| 23:10.37 | jebba | rwhitby, while you're at it (from mokomakefile wiki talk page): "why MokoMake don't resume OE.mtn.bz2 download? why it remove old file and start downloading from beginning?" wget -c p'haps... |
| 23:10.42 | Magon | what does patch prefered versions? |
| 23:11.01 | rwhitby | jebba: nod |
| 23:11.26 | *** join/#openmoko zween_ (n=zween@80-47-43-169.lond-hex.dynamic.dial.as9105.com) |
| 23:14.41 | rwhitby | Magon: don't understand your question |
| 23:14.58 | _muk_ | rwhitby: Hm, downloaded mokomakefile today... |
| 23:14.59 | Magon | openmoko/patches/preferred-openmoko-versions.patch |
| 23:15.16 | Magon | why it is there..you suggested to use it in order not to uboot build |
| 23:15.26 | _muk_ | rwhitby: started a whole new build today |
| 23:15.42 | Magon | _muk_: i did that second time today |
| 23:16.30 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03rwhitby * r20 10mokomakefile/trunk/Makefile: Added -c to wget calls, and fix touching of stamp files |
| 23:16.47 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@dsl093-060-111.pit1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 23:16.50 | _muk_ | Magon: strange... I just don't want to start from scratch again. Have waited to many hours already ;-) |
| 23:17.09 | rwhitby | Magon: it's there so people can choose to not honor "svnnow" |
| 23:17.11 | Magon | _muk_: me the same |
| 23:17.14 | *** join/#openmoko parag0ne (n=parag0n@popeshoe.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 23:17.24 | Magon | without is is does now ? |
| 23:17.55 | rwhitby | it rebuilds all openmoko-* packages (including kernel and uboot) every time you build |
| 23:17.57 | Magon | so to disable constant uboot build just site.patch is needed or any other? |
| 23:18.15 | Magon | ok..understand now |
| 23:18.16 | rwhitby | Magon: the two patches that I told you |
| 23:18.43 | Magon | and what it will take if i patch it..first time now and that the version i have? |
| 23:19.11 | Magon | Applying patch patches/preferred-openmoko-versions.patch |
| 23:19.12 | Magon | patching file trunk/oe/conf/distro/include/preferred-openmoko-versions.inc |
| 23:19.12 | Magon | Hunk #1 FAILED at 6. |
| 23:19.12 | Magon | 1 out of 1 hunk FAILED -- rejects in file trunk/oe/conf/distro/include/preferred-openmoko-versions.inc |
| 23:19.33 | rwhitby | ah, I guess the devs have modified that file since I last used that patch. |
| 23:19.43 | rwhitby | you should be able to use quilt to refresh it |
| 23:20.19 | Magon | how to use quilt..i have not used that so far :-( |
| 23:20.27 | aevin | so.. what's that "other thing that everyone asks" ? |
| 23:21.42 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@dsl093-060-111.pit1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 23:22.12 | mjr | my guess is it starts with "w", but I shan't be holding my breath since he was scared of saying it ;P |
| 23:22.47 | CoreDump|home | mjr: =D |
| 23:23.35 | Magon | what command of quilt to use? fold? |
| 23:24.32 | aevin | mjr: well, that would fit "that everyone asks about", but how can they do that!? |
| 23:24.50 | *** join/#openmoko apakatt (n=apakatt@89.207.216.81.static.j.siw.siwnet.net) |
| 23:25.07 | mjr | aevin, it does seem a bit quick to manage |
| 23:25.32 | SpeedEvil | AIUI - bluetooth is on USB |
| 23:25.46 | aevin | mjr: if they've planned this all along, making "room" to add it later, then it might be possible.. but. |
| 23:25.51 | SpeedEvil | if they found a bt + wifi usb chip |
| 23:26.43 | SpeedEvil | Or a SDIO card, even. |
| 23:26.45 | *** join/#openmoko cying_ (n=cying@adsl-75-18-228-80.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) |
| 23:27.27 | aevin | and besides, it's smart to have an initial device without too much fancy hardware to make it cheap and increase the availability among hackers/developers to create the main software (application). |
| 23:27.42 | aevin | and expand/add hardware/features later. |
| 23:28.38 | aevin | SpeedEvil: a compo RF chip sounds likely. |
| 23:31.07 | aevin | will have to wait and see :) |
| 23:31.21 | aevin | s/will/we\'ll/ |
| 23:31.26 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03rwhitby * r21 10mokomakefile/trunk/patches/openmoko-HEAD/ (preferred-openmoko-versions.patch series): Refreshed the svnnow patch |
| 23:33.39 | LuitvD | lol, by building for qemuarm you're essentially building for ARM926 right? |
| 23:34.05 | _muk_ | rwhitby: I just started with a clean directory and did the following: 1: wget http://www.rwhitby.net/files/openmoko/Makefile 2: make setup |
| 23:34.28 | _muk_ | rwhitby: make setup fails when: Applying patch linux-gta01.patch |
| 23:34.39 | _muk_ | patching file trunk/oe/packages/linux/linux-gta01_2.6.20.1.bb |
| 23:34.39 | _muk_ | Hunk #1 FAILED at 93. |
| 23:34.39 | _muk_ | 1 out of 1 hunk FAILED -- rejects in file trunk/oe/packages/linux/linux-gta01_2.6.20.1.bb |
| 23:35.19 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03rwhitby * r22 10mokomakefile/trunk/patches/openmoko-HEAD/ (openmoko-dates.patch sjf2410-linux-native.patch): Removed old patches that have been applied upstream. |
| 23:36.59 | rwhitby | _muk_: the makefile on the website was out of date with the one in the svn repo - I've pushed the latest, please "make update-makefile ; make update" |
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| 23:38.17 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03laforge * r1140 10/trunk/src/host/dfu-util/src/main.c: |
| 23:38.17 | CIA-7 | openmoko: * be more 'aggressive' in trying to obtain the interface name |
| 23:38.18 | CIA-7 | openmoko: * use quotes around interface name |
| 23:38.18 | CIA-7 | openmoko: * fprintf needs 'stderr', whereas printf doesn't ;) |
| 23:38.23 | *** join/#openmoko Kerberos (n=Kerberos@207.248.51.46) |
| 23:39.12 | _muk_ | rwhitby: Same result, Do I need to restart from a clean directory tree again, or should the make update-makefile and make update do it? make update seems to fail with the same error as before |
| 23:40.07 | rwhitby | is the svn revert command working? |
| 23:40.29 | rwhitby | (it should remove all patches, svn revert, then update the patches from svn, then apply the patches) |
| 23:40.36 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03laforge * r1141 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-dfu.patch: * add support for putting NAND partition names into USB DFU altinterface string descriptors |
| 23:42.40 | _muk_ | rwhitby: svn revert in oe/packages? |
| 23:44.13 | *** join/#openmoko edistar (n=edistar@ip503ddd09.speed.planet.nl) |
| 23:44.32 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@dsl093-060-111.pit1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 23:44.55 | rwhitby | _muk_: the svn revert command that the mokomakefile runs during "make setup-patches" |
| 23:45.24 | _muk_ | rwhitby: How can I tell if it works or not? |
| 23:45.41 | rwhitby | you could pastebin a complete log like I asked before .... |
| 23:45.48 | _muk_ | Currently re running make update, but this time it takes a very long time to run: ( cd patches ; svn update ) |
| 23:46.04 | edistar | if I buy a neo now, will i be able to upgrade it completely to the september model then? |
| 23:46.05 | _muk_ | rwhitby: missed that |
| 23:46.31 | Magon | so doing overnight build of x86 just by mokomakefile...will see at morning, gn |
| 23:46.37 | edistar | hardware the same etc.? |
| 23:46.45 | edistar | gn |
| 23:46.51 | Magon | and OE is simply different |
| 23:46.54 | _muk_ | I think I have to sleep now. The kids have a fever and doesn't sleep that well :-( |
| 23:47.11 | LuitvD | yeah, Bluetooth 2.0 dongle for 12 euro's :D |
| 23:47.12 | rwhitby | edistar: I doubt it will be exactly the same. especially if there are any hardware bugs. |
| 23:47.55 | LuitvD | very useful for a FIC neo1973 :) |
| 23:48.13 | edistar | ok... so actually you would have to buy twice to have an up-to-date model? |
| 23:49.08 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03laforge * r1142 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/ (series uboot-neo1973-defaultenv.patch): * update our compiled-in environment to a somewhat saner default |
| 23:49.17 | mjr | yes (Sean mentioned that he'll arrange a discount for p1 buyers though if they (meaning FIC) "come up with something cool" in the hw upgrade front) |
| 23:49.31 | edistar | thx |
| 23:49.51 | LuitvD | does sean ever hang around on this channel? |
| 23:49.53 | edistar | :) |
| 23:50.07 | Elrond | LuitvD - I saw him once. |
| 23:50.09 | rwhitby | I expect sean is much to busy to be wasting time here :-) |
| 23:50.27 | edistar | ok |
| 23:50.33 | mjr | then, I'm gonna buy the p2 model anyway to have one for me and one for SO |
| 23:50.34 | LuitvD | Elrond: okay :) I haven't, that's why I asked :) |
| 23:50.46 | mjr | yeah, haven't seen Sean here |
| 23:50.56 | mjr | either |
| 23:51.00 | Elrond | LuitvD - But I don't expect him here. |
| 23:51.18 | sixfeet | fred? |
| 23:51.48 | LuitvD | I might even buy a P1 device if I get the e2881 for free... :) |
| 23:52.01 | sixfeet | barnie? |
| 23:52.04 | LuitvD | if I'll have to buy an e2881, I won't buy a neo I guess... |
| 23:52.17 | edistar | hardware is final now then? |
| 23:52.22 | LuitvD | sixfeet: john? |
| 23:52.28 | rwhitby | edistar: hardware is never final |
| 23:52.31 | sixfeet | ^^ |
| 23:52.33 | LuitvD | heh |
| 23:52.49 | edistar | meaning? |
| 23:53.06 | edistar | i mean for this device.. |
| 23:53.12 | rwhitby | meaning as soon as you buy a Neo, a new one will be announced with better features. Same as any other consumer electronics. |
| 23:53.38 | Elrond | Okay, what is the GSM change in 1.5? |
| 23:53.42 | edistar | yes, i meant this model |
| 23:53.54 | rwhitby | if you're asking whether the feature set of the Neo 1973 is frozen, then the answer is yes. |
| 23:54.01 | rwhitby | (as far as I know) |
| 23:54.09 | edistar | thanks |
| 23:54.14 | LuitvD | rwhitby: is that so? |
| 23:54.34 | edistar | gn8 it's nearly 1 am here;) |
| 23:54.36 | LuitvD | rwhitby: that FOSDEM talk made it appear that some hardware might be (will be?) changed? |
| 23:54.46 | LuitvD | edistar: same here :) |
| 23:55.04 | edistar | where are you? |
| 23:55.06 | Elrond | Yeah, will go to bed in 5min. ;) |
| 23:55.14 | rwhitby | LuitvD: well, it's been announced, and they are supposed to be shipping me one this week, so one would assume that the feature set of the piece of hardware they are going to ship me is by definition frozen for this release of this device. |
| 23:55.32 | *** join/#openmoko _muk_ (n=masa@c83-248-200-68.bredband.comhem.se) |
| 23:55.38 | LuitvD | rwhitby: yeah, that's true... |
| 23:55.56 | LuitvD | but the "neo 1973" phase 1+ ... might have some extra functions, right? |
| 23:56.14 | rwhitby | Don't people realise how long it takes to produce, test and qualify a hardware change? |
| 23:56.22 | LuitvD | or will it's name change by then? will it be called neo1973 on mass-market? |
| 23:56.43 | *** part/#openmoko edistar (n=edistar@ip503ddd09.speed.planet.nl) |
| 23:56.46 | LuitvD | rwhitby: it's what sean told on the fosdem talk... AFAIK |
| 23:56.49 | rwhitby | LuitvD: irrespective of what it is called, there will always be another device with better features just around the corner. |
| 23:57.00 | LuitvD | rwhitby: true |
| 23:57.11 | LuitvD | rwhitby: and it's always fun to have those :) |
| 23:57.19 | Elrond | LuitvD - http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Current_events mentions a 1.5 thing. |
| 23:57.23 | mjr | it will be called Neo1973 on the mass market as far as we know |
| 23:57.27 | Elrond | (can't watch the video here) |
| 23:58.00 | LuitvD | Elrond: that's a quote from that video ;) |
| 23:58.37 | LuitvD | that's exactly what I heard... and I hope the "and that other thing everyone asks" is WiFi :) |
| 23:58.39 | Elrond | Okay, so it's unclear, what this "GSM system" means. |
| 23:58.52 | mjr | Elrond, it is indeed |
| 23:58.53 | LuitvD | Elrond: read: EDGE |
| 23:58.57 | mjr | one might speculate EDGE |
| 23:58.57 | LuitvD | ;) |
| 23:59.02 | mjr | yeah |
| 23:59.10 | Elrond | Ahh, okay. |
| 23:59.20 | LuitvD | faster GSM system = newer protocol then GSM actually... which is EDGE |
| 23:59.20 | Elrond | The "other thing" is probably wifi or camera. |
| 23:59.33 | LuitvD | (because GPRS is already featured) |
| 23:59.39 | Elrond | Right. |
| 23:59.44 | LuitvD | Elrond: I don't think it'll be a camera... |
| 23:59.52 | LuitvD | Elrond: I sure hope it isn't :P |
| 23:59.58 | LuitvD | I really hope it's WiFi |
