| 00:00.11 | jebba | actually, the phone isn't really "shitty" it's just low-end. It's really "perfect", but nearly featureless. Cheap + good keypad. |
| 00:00.29 | LuitvD | :P |
| 00:00.40 | LuitvD | good keypad is essential for good texting :P |
| 00:01.25 | jebba | ya, i just saw the e28 stuff for the first time here today. Looks very interesting, but it all depends if it's open or not. I mean there is already nokia/mot/etc stuff with linux, but so what? Get a QTphone devkit for $400? The huge difference here is that it's freakin open. |
| 00:01.42 | LuitvD | I bought this device once, and it was well worth it's price (not that difficult, because it was cheap) : http://www.actu-mobile.com/sagem/517-Sagem-myZ-5.jpg |
| 00:02.05 | LuitvD | QTphone? |
| 00:02.07 | jebba | ya, whatever. Cute phones everywhere. But a cute /open/ phone. Now that's different. |
| 00:02.16 | LuitvD | hmm |
| 00:02.20 | jebba | QTphone=whatever that trolltech greenphone(?) thing is. |
| 00:02.27 | LuitvD | well... it runs linux natively... that's a start... |
| 00:02.34 | LuitvD | the greenphone is 800 dollars ;) |
| 00:02.37 | LuitvD | don't forget that |
| 00:02.49 | LuitvD | and the SDK is another Neo on top of that |
| 00:02.53 | LuitvD | :P |
| 00:02.54 | benJIman | 800 dollars is only about £400 though |
| 00:03.03 | LuitvD | is that so? |
| 00:03.13 | benJIman | Not much more than most other unlocked phones |
| 00:03.13 | LuitvD | ~convert 800 usd to gbp |
| 00:03.15 | jebba | a start... but still. Just getting all the code up front in svn versus spending the first week getting a fkn terminal are two totally different things. I have no interest on trying to get going on something that's so closed, no matter what it is.... |
| 00:03.27 | benJIman | apt: you suck |
| 00:03.28 | apt | no, *you* suck! |
| 00:03.32 | LuitvD | lol |
| 00:03.39 | LuitvD | apt sucks |
| 00:03.40 | apt | only if you ask nicely and pay well. |
| 00:03.49 | LuitvD | AAAAAH |
| 00:03.53 | LuitvD | DO NOT WANt |
| 00:03.53 | benJIman | 0:03:42 <SUSEhelp> 800 USD (U.S. Dollar) is 409.3544 GBP (British Pound). |
| 00:03.54 | LuitvD | : |
| 00:04.02 | LuitvD | :| |
| 00:04.04 | *** join/#openmoko cathal (n=cathal@89.100.102.170) |
| 00:04.04 | benJIman | Dollars are worth nothing |
| 00:04.04 | LuitvD | right... |
| 00:04.14 | LuitvD | ~convert 800 usd to eur |
| 00:04.28 | LuitvD | apt is being a dick... |
| 00:04.30 | Psi | ~convert 800 usd to usd |
| 00:04.37 | Psi | heh |
| 00:04.37 | LuitvD | lol |
| 00:04.46 | LuitvD | that's not true! |
| 00:04.49 | LuitvD | :P |
| 00:04.53 | benJIman | 00:04:47 <SUSEhelp> 800 USD (U.S. Dollar) is 608.8280 EUR (Euro). |
| 00:05.10 | Psi | ~convert 800 usd to nzd |
| 00:05.11 | LuitvD | 600 euro's ... that's expensive for a device like htat |
| 00:05.15 | jebba | there are some other very cool free fone approaches though that look even "nicer" than the FIC neo, in that they publish their schematics as well. But they are not like Neo production. See: www.hbmobile.org opencellphone.org widgetry.org |
| 00:05.23 | LuitvD | ~calculate 800 usd in eur |
| 00:05.24 | *** join/#openmoko MacNorth_ (n=daijobu@c-75-71-250-33.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 00:05.26 | LuitvD | hmm... |
| 00:06.10 | benJIman | The neo is $350? |
| 00:06.18 | jebba | If FIC/openmoko made their schematics free/open so people could replicate the hardware, tehen we'd really have taken another leap :) |
| 00:06.20 | LuitvD | benJIman: yes |
| 00:06.33 | LuitvD | jebba: not really... |
| 00:06.33 | benJIman | less than £180, nice |
| 00:06.35 | jebba | benJIman, it's more like $infinity right now, but eventually it'll be $350 |
| 00:07.10 | LuitvD | jebba: not really... I guess you could buy a GTA01v2 off some developers, because it doesn't work :P |
| 00:07.19 | jebba | heh |
| 00:07.38 | LuitvD | hell, maybe you can even buy the one sean is showing on each event untill now |
| 00:08.17 | *** join/#openmoko behdad (n=behdad@63.250.163.170) |
| 00:08.52 | LuitvD | jebba: that widgetry stuff looks ... expensive... |
| 00:08.53 | LuitvD | big |
| 00:09.11 | LuitvD | gumstix + 60GB microdrive + 200$ touchscreen |
| 00:09.17 | jebba | I'm really waiting for openmoko (distro) + tuxphone + reprap :) |
| 00:09.34 | LuitvD | wonder what the battery on that one will be... lead-acid? :P |
| 00:09.46 | LuitvD | tuxphone? |
| 00:09.53 | jebba | LuitvD, ya, at that point it becomes your PC.... just come home & plug in USB keyboard etc. |
| 00:09.53 | LuitvD | bah... |
| 00:10.02 | LuitvD | yeah... |
| 00:10.10 | LuitvD | that thing is more like an UM-UMPC |
| 00:10.27 | jebba | well, i'm not saying now. I'm just saying hardware that is that open would rock too. But it's not called a Frankenphone for nothing... |
| 00:11.07 | *** join/#openmoko yacc (n=andreas@h1634.serverkompetenz.net) |
| 00:11.24 | LuitvD | damn, the GSM-GPRS-EDGE-GPS device they use in that widgetry thing is 170$ off the shelf... |
| 00:11.58 | jebba | prices always come down. It's about openness/freedom ;) |
| 00:12.01 | LuitvD | it's the most expensive one on sparkfun.com |
| 00:12.12 | jebba | sparkfun.com itself kicks ass..... |
| 00:12.34 | LuitvD | yeah, prices will come down... though only after the next hype has initiated... |
| 00:12.42 | jebba | now if the FIC people could just send their schematics to the sparkfun.com guys..we'd have a damn interesting combo :))))) |
| 00:13.03 | LuitvD | it's not fair the open-source developers always have to use outdated or expensive hardware to be comfortable |
| 00:13.25 | Clint | one battle at a time |
| 00:13.38 | jebba | They made gsm phones from old Western Electric rotary handsets. That kicks ass. |
| 00:13.46 | LuitvD | jebba: not really... building your own pcb on that is way more expensive then building the design in batches of 100s |
| 00:13.53 | *** join/#openmoko cathal_ (n=cathal@89.100.101.244) |
| 00:14.15 | LuitvD | jebba: how do you text with a rotary knob? |
| 00:14.36 | jebba | sparkfun + open schematics... I'm not taking expense/scalability, i'm talking full breakable toy ;) |
| 00:15.02 | LuitvD | lol |
| 00:15.29 | LuitvD | of what use is making your own device, if you can't produce a nice case for it? |
| 00:15.41 | jebba | LuitvD, this was a "standard" cell phone, not SMS and stuff. http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=286 |
| 00:15.41 | LuitvD | or do you think you actually can? |
| 00:16.14 | LuitvD | yeah, i know... |
| 00:16.17 | jebba | the case comes from Reprap (in fantasy future world here...) |
| 00:16.48 | LuitvD | I rather have my sagem myz5 then that rotary phone |
| 00:17.24 | LuitvD | jebba: reprap is nice... |
| 00:18.06 | LuitvD | it laser-prints into some sort of liquid plastic, hardening it that way, right |
| 00:18.07 | LuitvD | ?? |
| 00:18.33 | jebba | ya, well it can use a bunch of different materials. check wikipedia. there is another similar free project out there as well. |
| 00:18.40 | LuitvD | lasering a thermosetting plastic... |
| 00:20.09 | LuitvD | lol, how much does a reprap cost? :P |
| 00:20.59 | LuitvD | it'd be fun to try to create a custom FIC neo backplate with that RepRap device |
| 00:25.10 | *** join/#openmoko maydaytx (i=johndoe@cpe-67-9-70-44.hot.res.rr.com) |
| 00:42.44 | PasqualeBF | comeawn! |
| 00:43.02 | PasqualeBF | (ill be back later with another random message) |
| 00:44.32 | LuitvD | :) |
| 00:44.38 | LuitvD | entertaining... |
| 00:46.59 | LuitvD | damn, a GSM+GPRS+GPS device is pricey... |
| 00:47.08 | LuitvD | 150$... |
| 00:50.55 | cbpage | got a link for one? |
| 00:51.26 | LuitvD | sparkfun has some |
| 00:51.38 | LuitvD | http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8246# |
| 00:51.42 | LuitvD | for example |
| 00:52.02 | LuitvD | this is the cheapest one: http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=757 |
| 00:52.16 | LuitvD | 120$ tops, 102$ at 100+ volumes |
| 00:53.53 | LuitvD | hmm, the PCB design needs to be perfect too... |
| 00:54.07 | LuitvD | voltage spikes up to 2A, at 216Hz |
| 00:54.27 | LuitvD | (means thick tracks...) |
| 00:54.55 | LuitvD | (and some well-calculated capacative functions) |
| 00:56.12 | LuitvD | and you can't use a switching power supply on that module... |
| 00:58.53 | parag0n | LuitvD, i have a gm862 for sale if you want to buy it |
| 00:59.27 | LuitvD | parag0n: nah... maybe if you sell it for a nice price... |
| 00:59.28 | *** join/#openmoko Sufflope (n=Sufflope@crj95-3-82-237-151-219.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 01:00.02 | LuitvD | but I guess I won't be able to use it until I'm halfway through college... |
| 01:02.26 | LuitvD | parag0n: where did you get it? |
| 01:02.41 | parag0n | a mate of mine bought it from sparkfun |
| 01:03.06 | parag0n | he's decided to sell it now, because he wants to buy about 12 tonnes of watches or something |
| 01:03.25 | parag0n | i've got it in the UK because its easier to ship from here |
| 01:04.38 | LuitvD | parag0n: don't think you can get me to buy it... or the price should be really interesting :P |
| 01:05.05 | LuitvD | if not, I'm just waiting for either a Neo or an e2881 |
| 01:05.44 | parag0n | i'll have to find out how much he wants for it |
| 01:07.22 | LuitvD | hmm... guess it's too much anyways... looking at the sparkfun prices... |
| 01:07.46 | LuitvD | off the shelf it's a third of the Neo |
| 01:15.19 | *** join/#openmoko Psi (n=benw@203.152.97.213) |
| 01:23.50 | *** join/#openmoko skout (i=skout@impulse.vortex.org) |
| 01:24.41 | LuitvD | oehhh, |
| 01:25.17 | LuitvD | reading on linuxdevices about the "low-cost"-ness of those device :D |
| 01:25.20 | LuitvD | +S |
| 01:29.23 | *** join/#openmoko jebba_ (n=jebba@OL80-42.fibertel.com.ar) |
| 01:32.24 | LuitvD | http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS4475809720.html |
| 01:32.25 | LuitvD | :) |
| 01:33.03 | LuitvD | that was one year ago, for a GSM/GPRS/GPS linux device... for 300$ :D |
| 01:33.11 | LuitvD | no, wait... |
| 01:33.12 | LuitvD | euros |
| 01:33.22 | LuitvD | somewhat similar price as the neo |
| 01:33.24 | jebba_ | 2.4.20 |
| 01:33.33 | LuitvD | yes |
| 01:33.35 | jebba_ | java blah |
| 01:33.42 | LuitvD | though with wifi too :) |
| 01:33.56 | jebba_ | and their source code? Where can I `svn`? |
| 01:34.25 | LuitvD | :P |
| 01:34.33 | LuitvD | not saying it's an alternative... |
| 01:34.46 | LuitvD | just showing what I'm reading and what's interesting... |
| 01:34.57 | LuitvD | one full year ago tomorrow... |
| 01:35.01 | LuitvD | that device |
| 01:36.41 | LuitvD | lol, look at the title of that article: http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS4035002888.html |
| 01:36.43 | LuitvD | so true |
| 01:36.55 | jebba_ | ya, no problem. I'm just commenting on the "if it ain't got source code with it, to hell with it i'm not gonna bother" ;) This is where openmoko is really everything, no matter the hardware (which is still excellent). Add open schematics and you have euphoria ;) |
| 01:37.03 | *** join/#openmoko dirakx (n=dirakx@69.79.145.81) |
| 01:38.59 | *** join/#openmoko Psi_ (n=benw@ip-58-28-158-238.ubs-dsl.xnet.co.nz) |
| 01:39.04 | jebba_ | OT but i'm really looking forward to making asterisk_1.4.bb :) |
| 01:39.10 | *** join/#openmoko cathal (n=cathal@89.100.101.244) |
| 01:39.40 | LuitvD | "Qtopia® by Trolltech® | One Platform, No Limits" ... :| |
| 01:39.43 | LuitvD | yeah right... |
| 01:40.23 | LuitvD | 400$ for an SDK is quite a limit... |
| 01:40.46 | *** join/#openmoko [g2] (n=g2@nslu2-linux/g2) |
| 01:42.34 | jebba_ | ok. I'm gonna MACHINE="spitz" but i'm not promising i'm gonna replace my zaurus/openbsd ;) (self-hosted--all packages built on the device itself--openbsd rocks too!) |
| 01:43.09 | LuitvD | jebba_: then just backup the openbsd? ,,, |
| 01:43.30 | LuitvD | jebba_: did you recompile for qemuarm + rotation patch yet? |
| 01:43.35 | LuitvD | :) |
| 01:44.17 | jebba | LuitvD, no, i haven't done a qemu with rotation yet. |
| 01:44.47 | LuitvD | jebba: somebody wrote a hacky patch for that right? |
| 01:45.46 | *** join/#openmoko behdad (n=behdad@CPE000fb55e466d-CM0012c9c84bc4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 01:46.02 | LuitvD | hmm... how do I get a cursor pointer in that qemuarm build... reconfiguring the pointer device to "mouse" ? |
| 01:46.21 | *** join/#openmoko nm (n=hongtd@58.187.131.188) |
| 01:48.02 | jebba | the screen rotation comes in due to my change to /etc/X11/Xserver just take out the whole "-screen 640x480@270" and you'll have more like default (which incorrectly shows landscape mode). The next qemu images I have will likely be unmodified. |
| 01:48.59 | jebba | i haven't figured out the cursor thing yet. It appears to be matchbox(?) related, as it shows up ok over the rxvt screen. I tried -softCursor but it didn't help (i guess at things to make them work--i'm not an engineer ;) |
| 01:49.34 | LuitvD | hmm |
| 01:51.25 | LuitvD | but can't you force matchbox to take a mouse-like pointer device instead of a touchscreen-like pointer device? |
| 01:55.53 | LuitvD | uhh, should try to go to sleep now... |
| 01:56.01 | LuitvD | 3 am already |
| 01:58.26 | LuitvD[sleeping] | there |
| 01:58.34 | LuitvD[sleeping] | sleeping sequence initiated |
| 01:59.53 | *** join/#openmoko nm (n=hongtd@58.187.131.188) |
| 02:00.44 | *** join/#openmoko eikonos (n=eikonos@S01060020ed569ad7.gv.shawcable.net) |
| 02:01.12 | *** join/#openmoko libervisco (n=libervis@tuxhacker/libervis) |
| 02:02.23 | jebba | hey libervisco. I've appointed myself official channel timewaster. How's things? |
| 02:02.42 | libervisco | hehe hi jebba, all is good :) |
| 02:02.43 | libervisco | you? |
| 02:03.35 | jebba | not bad at all. It's nice to work on a project for a few days and to build enthusiasm and ideas more & more with each passing hour. Sounds foo perhaps, but a fun free project beats the hell out of an open one ;) |
| 02:04.10 | libervisco | sure it does :) |
| 02:04.27 | libervisco | you mean BLAG? |
| 02:05.25 | jebba | oh, i dig blag too, but I'm biased... I'm getting cracking away @ iBLAG cuz iPhone is for *($@ |
| 02:05.44 | libervisco | oh |
| 02:06.06 | libervisco | is there a site for iBLAG? |
| 02:07.08 | jebba | no, it's just a joke in development. |
| 02:07.20 | libervisco | ah I see :) |
| 02:07.41 | jebba | but you can check out BLASTERISK, which will definitely be a part: http://www.blagblagblag.org/BLASTERISK/ |
| 02:08.16 | libervisco | yeah :) |
| 02:08.22 | jebba | once neo 'net is solid (e.g. koen's OMFG wifi), integrating VoIP will be, well, speechless (pawn) |
| 02:08.36 | jebba | in fact, feel free to abuse blasterisk voip |
| 02:08.55 | libervisco | some time next month I am also gonna launch a web site about open phones like OpenMoko, powered by Free Software and standards |
| 02:09.04 | jebba | irc.indymedia.org #indytel -- free voip/asterisk |
| 02:09.58 | jebba | libervisco, I really don't know any other than tuxphone and opencell The rest just take the code a'la OSX ... |
| 02:10.32 | libervisco | yeah |
| 02:10.39 | libervisco | I only knew of asterisk actually |
| 02:10.42 | jebba | but it shouldn't be forgotten that the GPS and GSM of neo are /not/ free but binary evil spies. Good enough can suck., |
| 02:11.48 | jebba | i've spent quite awhile @ asterisk. Looked like sendmail.cf the first time I tried to do something with it. But i've managed to route "millions" of calls and other oddness with it (streaming radio in/out, speech recognition tricks, etc..) |
| 02:12.48 | libervisco | cool |
| 02:12.54 | jebba | libervisco, btw thanks for you blag review you did a few months ago. I think it was our 3rd press mention ;) |
| 02:13.08 | libervisco | only third? :) |
| 02:13.11 | leventhal | . . . blag? |
| 02:13.13 | *** join/#openmoko pirulo (n=andres_p@70.56.223.76) |
| 02:13.19 | libervisco | hmm maybe we should write another one then :) |
| 02:13.25 | libervisco | for new versions |
| 02:13.32 | leventhal | so you guys aren't all just paying homage to xkcd then? |
| 02:13.37 | libervisco | jebba, btw, I didn't write that review, it was one member |
| 02:13.40 | jebba | heh. pretty much. lwn mentions "obscure FSF distros such as..." and we even get left out of /that/ shortlist.. ;0 |
| 02:13.43 | libervisco | Iestyn Price |
| 02:14.50 | jebba | libervisco, anyway your site looks like a nice addition to the newspace. somewhere between lwn and /. |
| 02:15.04 | *** join/#openmoko vetetux (n=vetetix@174.25-218-195.adsl.internet.lu) |
| 02:15.13 | libervisco | newspace? |
| 02:15.22 | SpeedEvil | net |
| 02:15.25 | jebba | newspace? man, i've definitely lost my mind. sorry for the noise, those of you looking at the scrollback, but i may continue to spew... |
| 02:16.09 | jebba | news space i meant. like linux reporting which got obnoxiously corporate (except for lwn's corbet [wondernews]) |
| 02:16.11 | SpeedEvil | Although if it was a sound-a-like, nudespace almost works. |
| 02:16.13 | SpeedEvil | ah |
| 02:16.50 | libervisco | oh thanks jebba |
| 02:16.53 | jebba | the tone of libervisco was much more "one guy sitting down and saying it like it was" than some cnet review or someshit. |
| 02:17.28 | jebba | and not obnoxiously provocative ("OMFG ESR switched distros") |
| 02:17.40 | libervisco | hehe |
| 02:18.31 | pjz | I liked that /. tagged that with 'slownewsday' |
| 02:18.40 | libervisco | though our sites aren't really news sites.. more like discussion sites and commentary (Libervis.com) and tech support for Free Software (Nuxified.org) |
| 02:18.56 | SpeedEvil | Anyone here happen to have hardware, can ask agpsd for a position every second, and strace it for an hour or so, so I can have a look at the bitstreams? |
| 02:19.07 | SpeedEvil | To see if I can reverse them. |
| 02:19.52 | SpeedEvil | (in and out) |
| 02:20.16 | SpeedEvil | Ideally, a lock cycle too. |
| 02:20.36 | jebba | libervisco, BLASTERISK was initially set up for tech support. The idea was to build a list of SIP/IAX2 addresses that would be willing to do gnu/linux tech support + DIDs in as many parts of the world as we could spot. Local user calls local number and gets routed to volunteer geek around the world to say "type '/sbin/ifconfig' instead of just 'ifconfig'". But everyone just jumped on the free long distance. ;) |
| 02:21.28 | libervisco | :) |
| 02:21.37 | jebba | SpeedEvil, i aint got no neo, but i can run gpsd against a shitty usb gpd device on my laptop if that noise would help. |
| 02:21.43 | SpeedEvil | Nope. |
| 02:21.59 | SpeedEvil | I'm looking for the bitstream into/out of the hammerhead. |
| 02:22.06 | SpeedEvil | To see if I can reverse engineer it. |
| 02:22.14 | jebba | ya, that's some rare piece of info right now... |
| 02:22.25 | libervisco | I'm wondering if it'd be possible to install some free mobile software on SonyErricson K310i.. |
| 02:23.16 | libervisco | tho I plan to buy Neo when it gets better |
| 02:23.21 | jebba | libervisco, i think that's the wrong approach. Lets stop reverse engineering non-helpful hardware. Fuck them. Lets go for supporting the forward looking folks like PIC and the opencell/tuxmobile approaches. |
| 02:23.42 | libervisco | PIC? |
| 02:23.56 | jebba | Uh, FIC ;) |
| 02:24.03 | libervisco | oh |
| 02:24.05 | libervisco | right :) |
| 02:24.07 | libervisco | I agree |
| 02:24.17 | libervisco | gonna buy Neo definitely (if they'll ship to Croatia) |
| 02:24.19 | jebba | the company has a kind of generic acronym. They need some radical marketing ;) |
| 02:24.22 | libervisco | just not right now... |
| 02:24.54 | libervisco | $350 is a bit much for something I'll probably want to replace soon |
| 02:25.02 | jebba | ya, funny the fact that everyone in this channel wants the hardware yet, HOW MANY PEOPLE IN THIS CHANNEL WONDER IF THE DEVICE CAN BE SHIPPED TO THEIR COUNTRY? |
| 02:25.06 | libervisco | since this is the first and probably weakest version |
| 02:25.06 | jebba | woah, caps lock |
| 02:25.26 | cjb | jebba: the website says shipping worldwide. |
| 02:25.40 | libervisco | oh that's cool :) |
| 02:25.51 | jebba | ya, /they'll/ ship worldwide. But will argentina customs let me play with the thing? |
| 02:26.10 | libervisco | hmm yeah will it work with local ISPs? |
| 02:26.11 | pjz | FIC needs to get Laurence Fishburne to do a matrix-ish commercial: I can just hear him saying 'Free your Phone' |
| 02:26.36 | pjz | libervisco: thing is, if you don't buy one they might not be around to make v2 |
| 02:26.48 | jebba | libervisco, "will replace soon". The reason people usually replace is that they can't change the device software. 200MHz arm can be taken a long way. Hell, stretch it for a decade@! |
| 02:27.14 | libervisco | jebba, yeah, but why not a bit more space? |
| 02:27.20 | jebba | more space? |
| 02:27.23 | libervisco | can I at least attach a USB stick to it? |
| 02:27.40 | jebba | libervisco, you can do mini-SD which is presently @ 4gig. |
| 02:27.52 | libervisco | oh |
| 02:28.01 | cjb | jebba: I don't think the Neo SD support SDHC. |
| 02:28.05 | jebba | the future, will of course, contain much less space, so you'll have to content yourself with 512k. That's just the way it goes. |
| 02:28.05 | cjb | So 4G wouldn't work/ |
| 02:28.06 | cjb | . |
| 02:28.18 | libervisco | :\ |
| 02:28.26 | SpeedEvil | is SDHC hardware? |
| 02:28.31 | SpeedEvil | Or is it just software? |
| 02:28.40 | cjb | both. |
| 02:28.42 | SpeedEvil | 'just' being... |
| 02:28.45 | jebba | every 18 months there will be less space, so you better update your Contacts immediately or they won't fit. |
| 02:28.51 | SpeedEvil | It can't be implemented in current hardware? |
| 02:29.12 | cjb | the controller needs to support being put into SDHC, the driver needs to send the command and deal with the data format change. |
| 02:29.41 | jebba | In 5 years all of openmoko will have to fit in 64k |
| 02:30.07 | SpeedEvil | Can the current hardware do this? Or is there a hack like - it'll work in the slow serial mode only. |
| 02:30.29 | cjb | SpeedEvil: it has nothing to do with speed. |
| 02:30.35 | libervisco | 64 MB (expandable with 2 GB microSD) |
| 02:30.38 | libervisco | says wiki |
| 02:30.46 | SpeedEvil | I was meaning the 'compatibility' mode. |
| 02:30.48 | libervisco | so no more than 2GB microSD? |
| 02:31.07 | SpeedEvil | (that he doesn't have.) |
| 02:31.09 | cjb | SpeedEvil: I don't think the standard's public, actually. |
| 02:31.19 | cjb | SD is notoriously closed. |
| 02:31.24 | SpeedEvil | I diddn't download it off edonkey at all. |
| 02:31.26 | libervisco | and how much software can you really install on just 64MB anyway? |
| 02:31.42 | jebba | libervisco, well, you can get your self booted + functional. |
| 02:31.42 | SpeedEvil | Quite a bit. |
| 02:31.44 | libervisco | apt-get and so little space kind of don't fit :\ |
| 02:31.49 | SpeedEvil | If you are careful about stuff. |
| 02:31.53 | jebba | but no music sitting around... |
| 02:32.11 | jebba | libervisco, on openembedded ipkg=apt |
| 02:32.21 | libervisco | jebba, well music is ok, I can have an USB stick for that, but will neo allow me to plug my USB stick to it? |
| 02:32.26 | jebba | and is quite lean. IIRC i've done it with OpenWRT |
| 02:32.44 | SpeedEvil | It will be functional. Do normal phone things, and maybe have a 5M spare for contacts and voice call records and PIM stuff. |
| 02:33.02 | jebba | libervisco, with USB the device has to be self powering. Most devices I understand will need a USB hub with power. I assume this includes USB drive. |
| 02:33.18 | libervisco | ah |
| 02:33.20 | SpeedEvil | However, you can keep a library of micro-SDs. |
| 02:33.29 | SpeedEvil | And a SD-reader. |
| 02:33.34 | jebba | SpeedEvil, ya, but the best thing is to pop in 256M+ into SD slot... then you really open up what you can do.... |
| 02:33.38 | SpeedEvil | yeah. |
| 02:34.18 | SpeedEvil | sdmicro that is. At least first. |
| 02:34.21 | libervisco | another issue is that I've got only EDGE with my ISP, no GPRS.. and wifi isn't supported in my area anyway... |
| 02:34.43 | jebba | libervisco, there is a micro SD reader if you missed my nonsense above. 2gb SD is available, and 4gb exists. Even 256m is "common" and really allows much more on the device than the mere 64M.... |
| 02:35.05 | libervisco | cool |
| 02:35.09 | SpeedEvil | The 64M is 'base' state. |
| 02:35.19 | SpeedEvil | It needs to work, otherwise you can't swap the SD |
| 02:35.34 | jebba | libervisco, I haven't wrapped my head around the different data systems. In that I mean GPRS, EDGE, and some other one they had in new orleans... |
| 02:35.47 | SpeedEvil | (or you need SDs with predefined blobs on them. |
| 02:36.12 | jebba | Like I think I can get GPRS from my local telco, but I don't understand what the other GSM data systems are. |
| 02:36.16 | *** join/#openmoko chairuou_home (n=chairuou@58.187.61.219) |
| 02:37.35 | libervisco | you can get GPRS here too I think, but it's mostly EDGE and UMTS now |
| 02:37.38 | libervisco | I use EDGE right now |
| 02:38.06 | libervisco | since I'm in an area not supported by T-Com's ADSL yet (and they're a monopoly), I use EDGE + satellite DSL |
| 02:38.18 | jebba | I have gsm in argentina, but i have no idea what they have wrt EDGE (gsm data) |
| 02:38.21 | libervisco | so I'm thinking I could use the same EDGE account on mobile.. but Neo wont support it |
| 02:39.13 | libervisco | What is such a big difference anyway that OpenMoko can't support EDGE instead of GPRS, USB 2.0 instead of USB 1.1 etc.. why this insistence on older versions? |
| 02:39.27 | SpeedEvil | USB2/1 is more expensive. |
| 02:39.33 | SpeedEvil | requires a faster CPU |
| 02:39.46 | SpeedEvil | and more expensive CPU, with a USB2 controller. |
| 02:39.56 | SpeedEvil | And USB2 controllers use lots more power. |
| 02:40.07 | SpeedEvil | It's also a market thing. |
| 02:40.15 | SpeedEvil | EDGE would be utterly useless to me. |
| 02:40.42 | libervisco | EDGE is GPRS+ basically |
| 02:40.51 | libervisco | and is supported wherever GSM is |
| 02:40.53 | jebba | i think usb 1/2 reason is that 2 requires more power (?) |
| 02:41.02 | bmidgley_ | umts/hsdpa! |
| 02:41.49 | SpeedEvil | My bad - EDGE has come to the UK. |
| 02:42.00 | SpeedEvil | It requires upgraded software/hardware in the towers. |
| 02:42.29 | jebba | hsdpa is a EDGEesque buzzword I came across @ broadcom's site. They seemed to have a pretty kick-as SoC GSM/phone chip. But again, it all boils down to "do you have the docs?" Well, here LaF0rge has them, so we're safe. ;) |
| 02:42.31 | libervisco | What about the EDGE in phones? |
| 02:43.15 | SpeedEvil | It'll require the GSM module to support EDGE I suppose. |
| 02:43.29 | SpeedEvil | Which may or may not be a simple software upgrade. |
| 02:43.30 | jebba | ok, lets barf on the edge/gsm topic and think of new ways to make a neo into a toy :) |
| 02:43.43 | libervisco | hmm |
| 02:43.59 | maydaytx | it has vibrate mode, eh? |
| 02:44.03 | SpeedEvil | I want those little 'carphone warehouse' legs on it. |
| 02:44.15 | SpeedEvil | So it can run around after me if I forget it. |
| 02:44.25 | libervisco | alright so I guess even if I can't connect to the net with it always I guess I can always connect it to the computer to install new stuff on it, and use the phone/SMS and standard GSM features the rest of the time, right? |
| 02:44.25 | jebba | i'm not a gamer, but the txtmob/mmporgoof thing is interesting. (i'm still thinkin last.fm + moko) |
| 02:44.27 | SpeedEvil | It'd probably need a camera, to navigate bumps then. |
| 02:44.40 | *** join/#openmoko MagicFab (n=magicfab@ubuntu/member/magicfab) |
| 02:44.41 | SpeedEvil | libervisco: yes. |
| 02:44.51 | SpeedEvil | libervisco: through bluetooth or USB. |
| 02:45.00 | libervisco | yeah |
| 02:45.31 | libervisco | I've an IR receiver, so I'll use USB |
| 02:45.37 | libervisco | unless it can go over IR too.. |
| 02:45.40 | SpeedEvil | No. |
| 02:45.42 | SpeedEvil | No IR. |
| 02:45.45 | libervisco | (which I haven't managed to set up yet btw) |
| 02:45.47 | jebba | libervisco, let's /assume/ we can connect to the 'net. And automatically. It's not there in P0, but it's 100% coming in future versions. Assuming you have good wifi, what can you do with a neo? |
| 02:46.11 | libervisco | surf the web, SSH to my machine from town? |
| 02:46.12 | SpeedEvil | I think GPS + wifi is interesting. |
| 02:46.15 | libervisco | IRC? |
| 02:46.19 | libervisco | man lots of things |
| 02:46.22 | jebba | bah, ya. duh. |
| 02:46.28 | SpeedEvil | As the GPS gives you a nice absolutely defined timeslot. |
| 02:46.31 | jebba | wow. i can now do IRC with dasher. |
| 02:46.52 | SpeedEvil | Which means that you can have stuff like an encrypted tunnel. |
| 02:47.09 | jebba | i can setup an ssl tunnel to the abyss |
| 02:47.18 | SpeedEvil | That when you wake the radio up every 30s, and login to an AP, tells you you've got packets inbound. |
| 02:47.29 | SpeedEvil | For very low power. |
| 02:47.31 | libervisco | but unfortunately looks like the first Neo wont be quite internet ready :\ |
| 02:48.01 | libervisco | no wifi, low GPRS (which are damn expensive).. not very good |
| 02:48.03 | libervisco | but whatever |
| 02:48.13 | pjz | looks like neo's SoC doesn't support SDHC |
| 02:48.19 | pjz | so no 4GB cards for us |
| 02:48.20 | pjz | just 2GB |
| 02:48.33 | jebba | libervisco, ya. But i really think we need to dream about the device assuming good net. Sure, the first 50 sent out to bootloader hackers doesn't autowifi... Nor will P1. But by the time this device is pimp for mainstream it will have wiif. That's obvious. Now that we know that, how should we make it work? |
| 02:49.18 | libervisco | yeah..... |
| 02:49.26 | SpeedEvil | pjz :( |
| 02:49.32 | libervisco | how? hmm I know what I can do.. participate in popularizing it.. |
| 02:49.37 | libervisco | through my new site ;) |
| 02:49.45 | SpeedEvil | That's a pity - 4G cards will likely hit before Sep. |
| 02:49.49 | libervisco | and open mobiles in general |
| 02:49.53 | jebba | libervisco, yes. that's a natural approach for you. |
| 02:49.53 | pjz | SpeedEvil: yeah |
| 02:50.04 | SpeedEvil | I assume SDHC is for all SD cards >2G? |
| 02:50.04 | pjz | SpeedEvil: I just looked up the SoC spec and the SDHC spec |
| 02:50.09 | pjz | yeah |
| 02:50.14 | pjz | SDHC is 4-32GB |
| 02:50.32 | SpeedEvil | One area where compactflash got it right. |
| 02:50.48 | libervisco | jebba, the drupal install is already here, but there's lots of work to do on the new site: http://www.mobiliberty.com/index.php?q=forum |
| 02:51.00 | libervisco | that forum gives general impression of what will it be though |
| 02:51.02 | SpeedEvil | pjz: and you can't use it in the low-speed 'compatibility' mode? |
| 02:51.10 | SpeedEvil | that I've forgotten the name of. |
| 02:51.10 | pjz | — SD Memory Card Spec. (ver. 1.0) / MMC Spec. (2.11) compatible |
| 02:51.10 | pjz | — SDIO Card Spec (ver. 1.0) compatible |
| 02:51.11 | jebba | man, you're lucky I turned off my drupal=spam filter. |
| 02:51.23 | pjz | that's what the SoC spec says |
| 02:51.36 | jebba | libervisco, honestly it looks like more of the same old. |
| 02:52.14 | libervisco | jebba, what do you mean? |
| 02:52.23 | jebba | i mean you're drupal install. |
| 02:52.31 | libervisco | bah :D |
| 02:52.31 | jebba | ug, i don't want to see it again... |
| 02:52.36 | libervisco | drupal is just a base |
| 02:52.45 | libervisco | and can be made into anything |
| 02:52.53 | libervisco | jebba, both Nuxified and Libervis are drupal sites ;) |
| 02:52.59 | jebba | ya, man, use plain .html files or something. Man, it's like seeing the same commercal 500x times. |
| 02:53.31 | libervisco | heh.. forums with plain html pages? |
| 02:53.38 | libervisco | database driven? |
| 02:53.58 | libervisco | you can't escape a CMS so easily if you want a dynamic site |
| 02:54.02 | jebba | libervisco, take this with a bit of salt or something. I've liked your content I've read, but that same group of boxes + calendar and all that drupal / standard CMS shit is killing me. |
| 02:54.25 | libervisco | we've got no calendar anywhere :P |
| 02:54.31 | libervisco | but yeah I know what you mean |
| 02:54.49 | jebba | well, you know what i mean. I hit your site and i think "default drupal install + 30 minutes" barf |
| 02:55.09 | jebba | at least use emacs or vi ;) |
| 02:55.15 | libervisco | hehe |
| 02:55.30 | libervisco | that new site hasn't been customized at all yet |
| 02:55.33 | *** join/#openmoko cathal_ (n=cathal@89.100.102.170) |
| 02:55.44 | libervisco | it's just a default theme, not what we'll be using |
| 02:56.13 | jebba | but you're in a good place to explain (not hype! advertise! spam!) openmoko. I'm thinking to the lwn.net crowd. Like if openmoko gets lwn.net's respect... well, that will be something quite nice indeed. |
| 02:56.50 | jebba | i hope corbet writes the cam driver ;) |
| 03:06.29 | *** join/#openmoko orospakr (n=orospakr@bas11-ottawa23-1128668249.dsl.bell.ca) |
| 03:22.36 | pjz | SpeedEvil: so I went and looked and the answer is: maybe |
| 03:22.55 | pjz | SpeedEvil: as in there might be no hardware diffs but some software ones (default blocksize) |
| 03:23.30 | SpeedEvil | I wasn't finding much. |
| 03:23.39 | SpeedEvil | Having net problems ATM. |
| 03:24.21 | SpeedEvil | Do you mean that it's possible that 4G may work? |
| 03:24.21 | SpeedEvil | >2 |
| 03:25.06 | SpeedEvil | Fun. |
| 03:26.04 | nibbler_de | 4G? |
| 03:27.35 | SpeedEvil | 4 gigabyte SD. |
| 03:31.38 | pjz | yeah, it's difficult to tell. The SoC will do a 20 or 25MHz clock, and I see 4 pins in the GPIOs |
| 03:32.00 | pjz | so, potentially 100Mb/s |
| 03:32.06 | pjz | no possibility of faster |
| 03:32.10 | pjz | but that might be fast enough |
| 03:41.28 | pjz | so offhand my guess is that it will do it, but slowly |
| 03:42.18 | *** join/#openmoko ynezz (i=inezz@195.113.97.158) |
| 03:55.12 | pjz | best page so far is http://www.hjreggel.net/cardspeed/special-sd.html , found via wikipedia |
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| 04:04.13 | *** join/#openmoko rwhitby (n=rwhitby@nslu2-linux/rwhitby) |
| 04:04.52 | rwhitby | morning |
| 04:05.07 | *** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru) |
| 04:08.07 | aloril | morning (goes looking for where P0 date delay is mentioned) |
| 04:10.42 | jebba | aloril, you rule our fate. Make P1 soon :) |
| 04:11.08 | jebba | hey rwhitby. I've been kicking svn makefile recently... generally fine :) |
| 04:11.36 | rwhitby | jebba: feel free to add patches as required - do you know/use quilt? |
| 04:12.37 | aloril | jebba: ah, there is no news yet? |
| 04:16.04 | *** join/#openmoko tango__ (i=naz@unyew.silverninja.net) |
| 04:18.32 | jebba | rwhitby, i have definitely quilted, but not with software. I can probably figure it out, but I must defy the inertia of laziness to write a patch. Perhaps /msg will do./ |
| 04:19.20 | rwhitby | jebba: here's what I do: |
| 04:19.27 | rwhitby | 1) determine which file needs to be changed |
| 04:19.30 | rwhitby | 2) cd openmoko |
| 04:19.38 | rwhitby | 3) quilt new name-of-patch.patch |
| 04:19.52 | rwhitby | 4) quilt add path/to/file/that/needs.changing |
| 04:19.56 | rwhitby | 5) edit the file |
| 04:20.01 | rwhitby | 6) quilt refresh |
| 04:20.14 | rwhitby | 7) notice that quilt has added the patch, and updated the series file for you |
| 04:20.17 | rwhitby | 8) cd .. |
| 04:20.20 | rwhitby | 9) make setup |
| 04:20.25 | rwhitby | 10) make openmoko-devel-image |
| 04:20.44 | SpeedEvil | aloril2: that was me - that may not be strictly accurate. |
| 04:20.48 | rwhitby | and if you want to change/update an existing patch: |
| 04:20.51 | rwhitby | 1) cd openmoko |
| 04:21.06 | rwhitby | 2) quilt pop name-of-patch-you-want-to-change.patch |
| 04:21.06 | SpeedEvil | It sounds like it probably will support some 4G cards. |
| 04:21.09 | rwhitby | 3) edit the file |
| 04:21.36 | rwhitby | (do a quilt add first if you need to edit a file that is not already touched by the existing patch) |
| 04:21.40 | rwhitby | 4) quilt refresh |
| 04:21.41 | Clint | or quilt edit |
| 04:21.50 | aloril | SpeedEvil: yeah, I thought you had heard something, well some 4GB micro SD announcement by industry said that it would be just firmware update in most mobiles, so I'm still hopeful then |
| 04:22.01 | rwhitby | jebba: and that's about all you need to know to operate quilt. |
| 04:22.07 | rwhitby | Clint: nod |
| 04:22.51 | aloril | jebba: OK, so no news and no need to yet update P0 counter, it could still be right (probably not for lower limit, but upper limit might be (counter doesn't include shipping)) |
| 04:25.28 | SpeedEvil | 4G - maybe. |
| 04:25.33 | SpeedEvil | 8G - no. |
| 04:26.00 | SpeedEvil | 4G - there is the option of using standard cards with larger blocksizes |
| 04:26.09 | SpeedEvil | Though they can be SDHC too - which probably won't work. |
| 04:26.49 | SpeedEvil | I'm unsure if it will in fact work in 'compatibility' mode - which is somewhere around 1.5 megabytes/sec. |
| 04:27.24 | *** join/#openmoko maydaytx_ (i=johndoe@cpe-67-9-70-44.hot.res.rr.com) |
| 04:31.12 | aloril | SpeedEvil: ah, so there are incompatible hardware wise, not just software? |
| 04:31.28 | aloril | "Engineering samples are now available for evaluation, as mobile phone makers will need to upgrade the firmware in their handsets so that memory slots can support the new card." http://www.sandisk.com/Corporate/PressRoom/PressReleases/PressRelease.aspx?ID=3711 |
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| 04:34.51 | aloril | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Digital_card seems to imply driver problem too: "... some device drivers do not handle the larger block size ... " |
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| 04:36.43 | aloril | (uups, it talks about SD, not SDHC in what I quoted) |
| 04:37.48 | SpeedEvil | Seems so - yes. |
| 04:38.15 | SpeedEvil | regular SD cards can - sort-of-incompatibly be 4G. |
| 04:40.44 | aloril | for closed devices this is same, but not for Neo1973 ;-) |
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| 04:43.07 | SpeedEvil | I'm trying to see if I can find someone with the SDHC spec. |
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| 04:51.32 | jebba | rwhitby, thanks for quilt crashcourse :) /me looks manana.... |
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| 04:59.10 | aloril | so if you base screen resolution feeling on print, then you might be pleasantly surprised with actual Neo1973 ;-) |
| 05:06.01 | *** join/#openmoko bluelightning1 (n=blueligh@222-155-222-126.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) |
| 05:11.04 | pjz | SpeedEvil: so what I read seems to say that looking at the CSD (Card Specific Data) will get you the block size you're supposed to use, as well as (for SDHC) the cluster size, and if that's so, then it just requires a driver smart enough to handle those kinds of settings |
| 05:14.17 | SpeedEvil | I'm unsure, I'm trying to get more info. |
| 05:14.32 | SpeedEvil | And what sort of crack-monkey introduces a new standard limited to 32GB. |
| 05:16.53 | *** join/#openmoko bezlemin (n=bezlemin@cpe-72-179-41-19.austin.res.rr.com) |
| 05:26.49 | pjz | I think that's due to trying to be FAT32 compat |
| 05:27.00 | pjz | but I still agree with the sentiment =) |
| 05:33.49 | aloril | hmm.. according to wiki its "format" command limitation, not actual limitation, though bigger problem might be 4GiB file size limit |
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| 06:26.29 | SpeedEvil | aloril: People are going to backlash against this 'must be smaller' thing, and go with CardBus. |
| 06:30.02 | cbpage | nah, compactflash |
| 06:30.09 | cbpage | being ide it's good for at least 138gb |
| 06:30.11 | cbpage | ;) |
| 06:40.24 | aloril | average (lowest) prices for 2GB using http://www.mbnet.fi/hintaseuranta/tuote.aspx/26304 : |
| 06:40.30 | aloril | CF: 55 EUR (22 EUR), Memory Stick (cheapest type): 59 EUR (40 EUR), xD: 68 EUR (44 EUR) |
| 06:40.35 | aloril | MicroSD: 66 EUR (31 EUR), Mini SD: 35 EUR (16 EUR), MMC: 53 EUR (51 EUR), SD: 38 EUR (14 EUR) |
| 06:42.33 | aloril | 4GB: CF: 104 EUR (45 EUR), SD: 66 EUR (32 EUR) |
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| 06:44.05 | SpeedEvil | Annoyingly. I had a nice script to pull all of http://www.ebuyer.com/ and graph price versus media type. |
| 06:44.38 | SpeedEvil | Unfortunately, it broke, and I realised that I have no idea what each bit does. |
| 06:44.50 | aloril | it looks like SD is now cheaper than CF (while in past it was other way around) |
| 06:44.58 | SpeedEvil | yep. |
| 06:46.12 | *** join/#openmoko BenC (n=bcollins@debian/developer/bcollins) |
| 06:47.21 | aloril | what would it take to buy 256 4GB SD cards and combine them to 1TB flash memory? (other than costing probably more than 10000 EUR ;-) |
| 06:47.48 | aloril | or maybe more realistically 32x4GB for 128GB about 2000 EUR |
| 06:48.45 | daxxar | Wouldn't it be cheaper using 2GB? |
| 06:49.25 | aloril | yes, but 2x bigger |
| 06:49.55 | aloril | umm.. actually for average price 4GB is cheaper |
| 06:49.57 | daxxar | True |
| 06:50.06 | aloril | for cheapest price difference is small |
| 06:50.42 | SpeedEvil | A while back, I did sums. |
| 06:51.01 | SpeedEvil | The volume/capacity is about the same for top-end 3.5,2.5, flash |
| 06:51.52 | daxxar | Hm, the neo1973-UI looks sleek |
| 06:52.43 | SpeedEvil | I meke it a couple of hundred CC for a terabyte of microSD. |
| 06:54.39 | aloril | external mobile harddrive 160GB: 1MB/1mm^3 http://www.lacie.com/fi/products/product.htm?pid=10868 |
| 06:56.41 | aloril | 2.5MB/1mm^3 for 4GB SD, 12MB/1mm^3 for 2GB microSD |
| 06:56.54 | *** join/#openmoko borg_ (n=olaf@80.149.17.21) |
| 06:57.22 | aloril | however if you took just SD as such then you need extra space of course, if you create from raw, then ... dunno what is possible |
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| 07:00.12 | aloril | external USB harddisk seems to be about 0.7MB/1mm^3 (500 GB model) (not including power source ;-) |
| 07:01.51 | SpeedEvil | I think when I did the numbers, microsd wasn't around. |
| 07:02.15 | SpeedEvil | MicroSD + near field would be iteresting. |
| 07:02.17 | SpeedEvil | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_Field_Communication |
| 07:02.35 | SpeedEvil | Nobodies made one yet though. |
| 07:04.08 | aloril | anyway, considering these: http://most-expensive.net/cell-phone-mobile http://www.geckoandfly.com/2006/09/09/vertu-diamond-cellphone-world-most-expensive-phone/ |
| 07:04.18 | aloril | WinCE .... ;-) |
| 07:04.28 | aloril | on million dollar phone |
| 07:05.15 | aloril | I mean if you are going to pay million bucks, wouldn't want to get in features also more than just standard phone? |
| 07:05.46 | SpeedEvil | No. |
| 07:05.47 | aloril | if you had million bucks, what kind of phone you would make? |
| 07:06.01 | SpeedEvil | I want a pretty phone, and I want a flunky to make calls for me. |
| 07:06.31 | aloril | hehe |
| 07:06.49 | SpeedEvil | I dunno. There are hard tech limitations. |
| 07:07.11 | SpeedEvil | You can't push much beyond the state of the art, without spending _huge_ sums. |
| 07:07.18 | aloril | yes, developing new tech is *very* expensive |
| 07:07.20 | SpeedEvil | And a million bucks really isn't a lot. |
| 07:07.37 | *** join/#openmoko mschuoi (n=typn@unaffiliated/chairuou) |
| 07:07.40 | SpeedEvil | So you're pretty much limited to really fancy cases, and maybe new software. |
| 07:07.59 | aloril | so yeah, you can't get much more than what is offered in standard top of line phone anyway.. |
| 07:08.37 | aloril | well I think memory might be a bit exception: bluetooth (or wifi..) + big flash memory could be both expensive and make difference |
| 07:08.40 | SpeedEvil | I think to - say - halve the volume of a small phone and keep all the features you'd be looking at hundreds of millions. |
| 07:08.57 | SpeedEvil | Well - maybe half might just about be doable. |
| 07:09.01 | *** join/#openmoko Harlekin23 (n=Harlekin@p5496988A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 07:09.02 | SpeedEvil | Much more not. |
| 07:09.24 | aloril | lets assume current size and that you don't need to have all inside case because of wireless |
| 07:09.29 | SpeedEvil | well - ten prolly. |
| 07:09.56 | SpeedEvil | Pretty much problematic. |
| 07:10.02 | SpeedEvil | Large screen or buttons |
| 07:10.10 | aloril | actually, phone itself can be small if you use belt to house actual stuff |
| 07:10.12 | SpeedEvil | there are all the usual compromises. |
| 07:10.33 | aloril | hmm.. well.. still limited |
| 07:11.06 | SpeedEvil | A phone with 'smart' fascias might be interesting. |
| 07:11.17 | *** part/#openmoko dirakx (n=dirakx@69.79.145.81) |
| 07:11.21 | SpeedEvil | Where the pop-off bits contain various sized LCDs |
| 07:11.34 | SpeedEvil | and different button arrangements. |
| 07:11.52 | SpeedEvil | So you could pick between hardware qwerty and large screen |
| 07:11.57 | aloril | what kind of bandwidth you need between SoC and LCD on cell phone? (too much for wireless?) |
| 07:12.06 | SpeedEvil | Pretty much. |
| 07:12.17 | SpeedEvil | Wireless raises the other horrible issue - power. |
| 07:12.35 | SpeedEvil | You can't have power over wireless, and you need power hungry devices at either end. |
| 07:12.40 | aloril | and HMD displays are too immature |
| 07:14.07 | SpeedEvil | It's more the mounting that's the problem. |
| 07:15.05 | SpeedEvil | Magnets that worked on bone or flesh would solve so many issues. |
| 07:17.51 | *** join/#openmoko dirak1 (n=dirakx@69.79.145.81) |
| 07:19.03 | aloril | hmmm.. lets assume traditional display for now with touch screen: |
| 07:19.14 | *** join/#openmoko koen (n=koen@dominion.kabel.utwente.nl) |
| 07:19.21 | aloril | and 2 unit design (belt + hand) |
| 07:19.36 | aloril | when you put phone away in belt, it would automatically charge |
| 07:20.13 | aloril | hand unit: display, CPU, wireless, at least some local memory (RAM + flash), battery |
| 07:21.48 | *** join/#openmoko buz (n=buz@80-218-148-33.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 07:22.11 | aloril | belt: more flash (up to 100 GB at least, maybe 1TB?), much bigger battery (like 10Ah LiPo?) |
| 07:22.22 | aloril | sounds expensive, especially that flash part ;-) |
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| 07:23.17 | SpeedEvil | Hmm. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_memory_cards starts at compactflash. |
| 07:23.17 | SpeedEvil | It should really have PCMCIA |
| 07:25.55 | SpeedEvil | And actually - punched cards wouldn't be inappropriate. |
| 07:25.57 | dottedmag | SpeedEvil: IIRC, adapter CF<->PCMCIA is just mechanical |
| 07:26.02 | SpeedEvil | Yes. |
| 07:26.18 | dottedmag | SpeedEvil: punched cards? :) |
| 07:26.19 | SpeedEvil | But PCMCIA cards were used as camera storage before CF arrived. |
| 07:26.47 | cbpage | yup |
| 07:26.58 | dottedmag | well. they are also memory cards as well :))) |
| 07:27.06 | cbpage | there were some industrial pcmcia memory cards for a while |
| 07:27.10 | cbpage | *quite a while |
| 07:27.21 | SpeedEvil | I can't think of an earlier read-write solid-state memory card. |
| 07:27.37 | SpeedEvil | DEsigned for mass market use than PCMCIA |
| 07:27.42 | cbpage | yeah |
| 07:27.44 | *** join/#openmoko dneary (n=dneary@mne69-9-88-163-116-163.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 07:27.53 | cbpage | i think ibm even used pcmcia ram cards for a while! |
| 07:27.54 | SpeedEvil | There were game cartridges. |
| 07:28.03 | *** join/#openmoko TarasBulba (n=gorkem@81.214.127.147) |
| 07:28.04 | SpeedEvil | Those weren't PCMCIA |
| 07:28.07 | SpeedEvil | But JEDEC |
| 07:28.18 | SpeedEvil | Which had the pins in a zigzag, not two rows. |
| 07:28.19 | SpeedEvil | IIRC |
| 07:28.30 | aloril | I think most of custom job would be that huge flash memory, I wonder how much extra cabling, control logic, etc. you would need to create 128GB flash memory module using microSD cards |
| 07:29.01 | SpeedEvil | I think it's reasonable that you could get double the volume. |
| 07:29.10 | SpeedEvil | With optimised sockets. |
| 07:31.55 | aloril | 135*75*15mm^3 / (11*15*1mm^3 * 4) * 4GB -> almost 1TB in same size as mobile hard drive: http://www.lacie.com/fi/products/product.htm?pid=10868 |
| 07:32.15 | aloril | or if double, then 2TB in same space |
| 07:33.37 | aloril | of course for part of $million you would have freeNX connection to some reasonably powerful supercomputer too ;-) |
| 07:35.13 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=rob_w@p549BAFD9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 07:36.19 | *** join/#openmoko mschuoi (n=typn@unaffiliated/chairuou) |
| 07:39.04 | aloril | so.. I do see 'useful' use for lots of money even without using *huge* research budget |
| 07:39.29 | buz | like that has ever been an issue |
| 07:39.31 | buz | finding use for money |
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| 07:43.17 | aloril | buz: yes, I was just thinking more 'useful' usage of $million for mobile phone than diamonds + standard phone + WinCe ;-) |
| 07:43.31 | buz | ah yes |
| 07:43.37 | buz | i can see uses too ;-) |
| 07:44.05 | buz | hire some assistant to carry it for you |
| 07:45.05 | buz | as for 128gb flash, that should be more in the 4 digit range |
| 07:45.17 | *** join/#openmoko Issac-S (n=Issac-S@CPE001839c1c0d8-CM0018c0c62322.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 07:45.26 | buz | for the flash alone, obviously |
| 07:45.54 | aloril | yes and for 1TB in 5 or 6 digits |
| 07:46.05 | buz | 5 should be enough |
| 07:46.27 | buz | at <10usd per gb of flash |
| 07:47.09 | buz | might even just about get it in the last 4 digit region ;) |
| 07:47.09 | aloril | yeah, but you need to assemble it into one module, wires, controllers, etc.., custom job might not be very cheap ;-) |
| 07:47.10 | tigert | but do you want your data in yet another device? |
| 07:47.41 | tigert | i rather take a fast always present net connection than lots of storage |
| 07:47.42 | aloril | tigert: faster access than over wireless |
| 07:47.54 | buz | mhh wires and all? stick it on a pcb for chrissakes |
| 07:48.04 | tigert | well, sure for movies maybe |
| 07:48.25 | tigert | but with that screen, maybe not :) |
| 07:48.51 | tigert | all these mobile devices rock with good connectivity |
| 07:49.32 | koen | Google <foo> Beta makes it mandatory |
| 07:49.37 | tigert | <PROTECTED> |
| 07:50.14 | buz | not even with 5mbit at home i like that idea |
| 07:50.29 | buz | and if google is involved it could as well be 1gbit and i still wouldnt use it |
| 07:50.48 | tigert | it depends what you want to do |
| 07:51.24 | tigert | i have been chatting with this N800 while my laptop fscks its disk |
| 07:51.44 | buz | its not like that needs any major amount of storage ;) |
| 07:51.47 | tigert | i streamed podcasts on the commute drive over 3G |
| 07:52.03 | tigert | but yea. some storage of course |
| 07:52.29 | tigert | but the connection is what makes handhelds interesting for me |
| 07:53.06 | tigert | an ipod is nice but thats pretty specific use case |
| 07:53.47 | tigert | this connectivity + gps location is what is really interesting |
| 07:54.10 | *** join/#openmoko wbx (n=wbx@213.23.202.22) |
| 07:54.43 | tigert | ooh. fsck is done :) |
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| 08:13.25 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03mickey * r1077 10/trunk/oe/packages/openmoko-apps/openmoko-dialer_svn.bb: oe/openmoko-dialer: add missing eds-dbus dependency (from OE) |
| 08:20.25 | *** join/#openmoko koen (n=koen@dominion.kabel.utwente.nl) |
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| 08:22.05 | empty_mind | iam getting this meaage suring "make openmoko-devel-image" http://pastebin.com/886417 . any idea whats worng |
| 08:22.52 | *** join/#openmoko zoolooc (n=lucian@p5495287C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 08:22.58 | empty_mind | iam getting this message suring "make openmoko-devel-image" http://pastebin.com/886417 . any idea whats wrong (with typo corrections) |
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| 08:51.43 | greentux | counter |
| 08:51.43 | aloril | P0: a week 03:08:16 (1.131 - 7.131 days); P1: 23.131 - 38.131; P2: 191.131 - 221.131 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (382) |
| 08:58.40 | *** join/#openmoko tr2x (n=alvar@80-218-185-55.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
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| 09:08.58 | *** join/#openmoko LuitvD (n=luitvd@beigetower/luitvd) |
| 09:12.18 | LuitvD | hi |
| 09:14.15 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=rob_w@p549BAFD9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 09:17.47 | hrw | tomorrow fosdem. I hope that there will be atleast one phone |
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| 09:19.58 | *** join/#openmoko so_solid_moo (n=moo@barney.alcoholicsunanimous.com) |
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| 09:41.06 | *** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru) |
| 09:41.20 | LuitvD | welcome, my friend |
| 09:41.57 | LuitvD | hrw: You mean just a device, or a working device? |
| 09:42.10 | hrw | working |
| 09:43.06 | LuitvD | lol... the pictures I've seen were all with either a non-working device, or a working one without the case :P |
| 09:43.24 | XorA | hrw: define working :-) |
| 09:44.27 | *** join/#openmoko bedboi (n=bedboi@c3lab.poliba.it) |
| 09:44.30 | bedboi | hi there. |
| 09:44.49 | hrw | XorA: ;;) |
| 09:44.49 | *** join/#openmoko empty_mind (n=orion@59.176.103.149) |
| 09:45.03 | hrw | XorA: something which is not a mockup ;) |
| 09:46.33 | *** join/#openmoko jdav_ (n=james@d142-179-3-51.bchsia.telus.net) |
| 09:49.02 | LuitvD | to me, working is when the device is fully assembled, and some software/firmware is doing something with the LCD... preferrably showing the openmoko desktop |
| 09:49.57 | *** join/#openmoko silwol (n=silwol@193.170.68.74) |
| 09:50.32 | *** join/#openmoko LuitvD (n=luitvd@beigetower/luitvd) |
| 09:50.38 | LuitvD | whoops |
| 09:51.03 | XorA | hrw: I guess you have to ask mickeyl to play with his toys then |
| 09:52.26 | hrw | XorA: time will show. mickeyl has more important thigns then openmoko today |
| 09:52.58 | empty_mind | well receiving this error while making using mokomakefile http://pastebin.ca/367394 any hints ? |
| 09:54.03 | koen | don't use the svn bbcollection, it's broken |
| 09:56.55 | *** part/#openmoko SirCrow (n=sircrow@sd511685b.adsl.wanadoo.nl) |
| 09:59.48 | *** join/#openmoko livingdaylight_ (n=conrad@82-45-205-43.stb.ubr03.camd.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 10:00.11 | livingdaylight_ | does this phone have a camera? |
| 10:00.12 | aloril | There is no camera included. With (battery) powered USB hub, you should be able to attach to (almost) any external camera. See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Hardware for details on what is included. |
| 10:00.31 | *** join/#openmoko greghunt (n=greg@88-108-3-147.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) |
| 10:00.32 | LuitvD | yay for aloril's scripts |
| 10:00.44 | livingdaylight_ | no camera? that sux |
| 10:01.00 | livingdaylight_ | a 21st century phone without a camera? |
| 10:01.29 | *** join/#openmoko Eblis (n=Miranda@miranda/contributor/eblis) |
| 10:01.29 | LuitvD | it's not a 'phone' ... |
| 10:01.32 | livingdaylight_ | i can hardly believe it, and at that price....geez...they're not making supporting an open-source initiative easy then |
| 10:01.39 | LuitvD | :P |
| 10:01.53 | koen | some people have real cameras and don't need useless toys in their phone |
| 10:02.01 | livingdaylight_ | XorA, no, ididn' talready know |
| 10:02.13 | livingdaylight_ | koen, its not a useless toy |
| 10:02.37 | LuitvD | it is for many people... |
| 10:02.38 | XorA | a 1MP camera with no optics is a fairly useless toy |
| 10:02.40 | livingdaylight_ | now just coz this camera falls short on functionality no reason to rationalize |
| 10:02.55 | rwhitby | empty_mind: see the patch sent to openmoko-devel recently. |
| 10:03.08 | empty_mind | rwhitby, ok |
| 10:03.13 | livingdaylight_ | XorA, no because it fulfills the funtion to take pictures of a quality that is sufficient for certain things |
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| 10:03.32 | *** join/#openmoko Eblis_ (n=Miranda@86.34.3.192) |
| 10:03.55 | livingdaylight_ | like on the street; accidents, in london with the bombings quick snaps from mobile phones was very useful in getting information out |
| 10:03.58 | *** join/#openmoko Marex (n=Marex@85.132.236.161) |
| 10:04.54 | livingdaylight_ | fact is every phone has a camera now, if openmoko are competing then they should also have a basic camera. It does serve a function, especially in emergency situations |
| 10:05.13 | CM | livingdaylight_: Not every phone has one |
| 10:05.38 | CM | livingdaylight_: And I's say 50% never use their phone, and 90% of the others barely use it |
| 10:05.51 | vmaster | lol, in the few days i've been idling this channel i've seen people complain about a lot things, but you're the first to complain about the missing camera |
| 10:05.58 | vmaster | *of |
| 10:05.59 | hrw | livingdaylight_: there are companies which does not allow employers to use phones with camera etc |
| 10:06.08 | koen | no camera |
| 10:06.27 | CM | I'm not allowed to have a camera here.. (Volvo Cars factory) |
| 10:06.28 | LuitvD | 0,3Mpixel... useless |
| 10:06.55 | koen | CM: right, there are a lot of work sites where I'm not allowed to have a cameraphone either |
| 10:07.00 | hrw | I have 3 phones at home. two with cameras (2.0Mpx in my se k750i, 1.3Mpx in Ania's se k510i) |
| 10:07.07 | XorA | and the one on the HTC Wizard is fucking annoying |
| 10:08.27 | CM | koen: If I'd take a pic of the new XC70 or XC60 jeep or so I'd get a hefty fine, besides banned forever for doing any work here |
| 10:08.46 | LuitvD | :) |
| 10:09.26 | LuitvD | it's a good thing the Neo doesn't have a cam then isn't it? :P |
| 10:09.37 | CM | Definitely |
| 10:10.27 | CM | I even considered the SE M600 phone for a while. |
| 10:10.28 | *** join/#openmoko greghunt (n=greg@88-108-3-147.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) |
| 10:10.35 | LuitvD | lol, the neo should be able to fit a SID chip :D |
| 10:10.37 | CM | No cam, nice screen.. |
| 10:10.44 | livingdaylight_ | Xora, well my phone takes picutres worth looking at that do the job |
| 10:11.09 | livingdaylight_ | hrw, is that to protect industrial secrets? are you talking of communist China? |
| 10:11.19 | CM | I hope there's some nice sid-files to be used as ringtone |
| 10:11.23 | aloril2 | CM: if you really wanted to take pic, could they actually prevent/detect it? |
| 10:11.24 | LuitvD | CM: wow, that's a really nicedevice |
| 10:11.32 | livingdaylight_ | koen, is that an old model? |
| 10:11.38 | LuitvD | CM: why not create .sid files? |
| 10:11.45 | *** part/#openmoko friede1 (n=fwolff@dsl-241-155-70.telkomadsl.co.za) |
| 10:11.48 | CM | aloril2: No, and security here sucks |
| 10:11.54 | koen | CM: mickey|defence was in "the scene" for making those sid files :) |
| 10:12.05 | LuitvD | CM: years ago there even were sid composers... |
| 10:12.29 | LuitvD | you could get a career in the game-audio business by then already |
| 10:12.29 | CM | koen: I noticed that in some of his old blog posts |
| 10:12.38 | koen | I suspect I need a floppy drive... |
| 10:12.45 | XorA | doink doink doink doink weepoo weepoo weepoo weeepoo |
| 10:12.54 | XorA | and repeat :-) |
| 10:13.04 | livingdaylight_ | well, this is their first project like this. In future they will surely have camera function on their phone like everyone else now too. I shall have to wait till then to support this open-source phone |
| 10:13.40 | LuitvD | http://bff.netswarm.net/mods/Muzak/ |
| 10:13.48 | CM | livingdaylight_: Wait a year for version 2 of the Neo :) |
| 10:13.50 | LuitvD | CM: think daisychain is in that too |
| 10:13.56 | CM | :D |
| 10:14.19 | LuitvD | daisychain and daisychain2 |
| 10:14.31 | CM | Sweet! |
| 10:14.37 | hrw | koen: Mickeyl was amiga musician so protracker/med rather then sid |
| 10:14.47 | livingdaylight_ | CM, yes, thank you. The current model is not good enough for me, not at that price |
| 10:14.58 | CM | Don't expect to find Aerodyn though.. The full name is far from PC |
| 10:15.10 | XorA | hrw: get soundtracker on your progear and get mickey|defence to do some live stuff at FOSDEM :-) |
| 10:15.10 | CM | And in swedish.. |
| 10:15.33 | LuitvD | where does aerodyn come from? |
| 10:15.58 | LuitvD | keygenmusic :D |
| 10:16.38 | CM | LuitvD: The full name was "Aerodynamisk Neger" wich is both strange and somewhat racist.. :/ |
| 10:16.47 | LuitvD | :P |
| 10:18.59 | hrw | XorA: first have to get x11 starting nice on it |
| 10:20.04 | LuitvD | :) yeah |
| 10:20.47 | LarstiQ | nice to see the channel filled with demosoceners ;) |
| 10:21.00 | *** join/#openmoko sureshkuma1 (n=suresh@196.12.43.162) |
| 10:21.45 | sureshkuma1 | Hi all, can anyone help me in building the library lips_im-0.1 |
| 10:22.41 | sureshkuma1 | Anyone there? Waiting for your responses............... |
| 10:23.43 | koen | sureshkuma1: I think you need #gpe or #oe for that |
| 10:23.59 | LuitvD | CM: lol, that site contained 300 .mod files :D |
| 10:24.10 | sureshkuma1 | koen: ok |
| 10:25.23 | LarstiQ | LuitvD: try scene.org |
| 10:25.46 | LuitvD | LarstiQ: what's that? |
| 10:25.59 | LarstiQ | LuitvD: the demoscene archive |
| 10:26.42 | *** part/#openmoko sureshkuma1 (n=suresh@196.12.43.162) |
| 10:27.59 | LuitvD | stereoprimer is cool :) |
| 10:29.38 | LuitvD | CM: so why didn't you buy that SE M600i ... it's quite a nice phone... |
| 10:30.01 | CM | LuitvD: I got a k750i for free.. ;) |
| 10:30.11 | LuitvD | CM: :O nice |
| 10:30.43 | CM | And some crappy siemens I can use at work, but I just switched sim-cards and use the k750 here anyway ;) |
| 10:31.30 | LuitvD | CM: that k750i is soo much cheaper :P |
| 10:31.42 | LuitvD | the m600i is 370 euro's :P |
| 10:31.50 | LuitvD | (including dutch taxes...) |
| 10:32.38 | CM | rwhitby: Well, that screen sure is shiny.. ;) |
| 10:33.02 | *** join/#openmoko slomo (n=slomo@ubuntu/member/slomo) |
| 10:33.06 | CM | But I agree, the whole thing is that it's open and you're free to do what you want :) |
| 10:34.06 | rwhitby | right - pick your favourite hardware with your specific set of must-have features, and port openmoko to it. |
| 10:34.35 | empty_mind | rwhitby, this error comes after applying the patch http://pastebin.ca/367450 |
| 10:35.00 | rwhitby | who cares if the first hardware target has this or that feature. openmoko is not about the first piece of hardware that it happens to run on. |
| 10:35.30 | rwhitby | go to #neo1973 if you want to complain about the hardware. this channel is about openmoko. |
| 10:35.59 | *** join/#openmoko jannu (n=jannu@hoas-fe34dd00-216.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 10:36.04 | rwhitby | empty_mind: the solution to that has been posted to openmoko-devel a number of times. |
| 10:36.05 | LuitvD | rwhitby: does that exist? :O |
| 10:37.01 | empty_mind | rwhitby, ok |
| 10:37.26 | CM | LuitvD: I guess not, but it will if you join it. |
| 10:37.42 | CM | Point is that OpenMoko != Neo 1973 |
| 10:37.48 | LuitvD | CM: true... |
| 10:41.10 | *** join/#openmoko zinetwin (n=zinetwin@cpe-024-088-002-234.sc.res.rr.com) |
| 10:41.41 | *** join/#openmoko bluelightning (n=blueligh@222-155-128-101.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) |
| 10:42.00 | rwhitby | we all should resolve to just point anyone who starts complaining about the Neo1973 hardware to #neo1973 ... |
| 10:42.19 | LuitvD | CM: http://www.modarchive.com/cgi-bin/download.cgi/A/AERODYN.MOD |
| 10:42.33 | CM | LuitvD: Cool! :) |
| 10:42.52 | *** join/#openmoko MacNorth (n=daijobu@24.8.201.249) |
| 10:42.52 | LuitvD | CM: http://www.modarchive.com/A/index6.shtml has so many more :D |
| 10:42.55 | CM | Thanks :-) |
| 10:46.32 | *** join/#openmoko meandtheshell (n=markus@85-124-207-17.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at) |
| 10:50.00 | *** join/#openmoko __doc__ (n=doesnt@62-2-90-134.static.cablecom.ch) |
| 10:50.11 | Stephmw | bleh. as expected, everything I want to see at FOSDEM somehow clashes |
| 10:50.29 | __doc__ | hm, the first openmoko capable phone will have only bluetooth right? |
| 10:50.34 | __doc__ | no wlan |
| 10:51.07 | *** part/#openmoko highvoltage (n=jaagaan@ubuntu/member/highvoltage) |
| 10:52.15 | LuitvD | wifi? |
| 10:52.15 | aloril | When version 1 was designed there was no sufficiently low-power WiFi chip available which has an open driver. You can attach (battery) powered USB hub to Neo1973 and then use supported WiFi USB stick. For more information see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F |
| 10:52.18 | __doc__ | ya |
| 10:52.47 | koen | __doc__: depends on how hard the htc-universal people write support for gsmd |
| 10:52.52 | *** part/#openmoko zinetwin (n=zinetwin@cpe-024-088-002-234.sc.res.rr.com) |
| 10:52.58 | __doc__ | koen: huh? |
| 10:53.21 | koen | any phone that runs linux is openmoko-capable in principle |
| 10:53.37 | __doc__ | hm |
| 10:53.39 | *** join/#openmoko chrustinho (n=christop@p57B0099F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 10:54.11 | __doc__ | it's kind of a bummer to buy a device for about $350 only to spend that money a year or two later to get one with wifi |
| 10:54.37 | hrw | __doc__: then do not buy it |
| 10:54.40 | LuitvD | __doc__: if you don't like it, then don't buy it... |
| 10:54.44 | __doc__ | but I want it! :) |
| 10:54.45 | LuitvD | damn, beaten :P |
| 10:54.57 | __doc__ | but I don't want to buy it twice |
| 10:55.02 | hrw | __doc__: then do not complain? |
| 10:55.13 | __doc__ | huh |
| 10:55.14 | *** join/#openmoko bluelightning_ (n=blueligh@222-155-140-210.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) |
| 10:55.15 | LuitvD | hrw: damn, you're too fast for my typing :P |
| 10:55.29 | __doc__ | what's that a philosphy? |
| 10:55.41 | LuitvD | if you want it, then don't complain.. if you want to complain, then don't buy it :P |
| 10:55.47 | __doc__ | hm |
| 10:56.04 | __doc__ | wherever it's stated that you can't want something and desire something else too |
| 10:56.10 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=rob_w@p549BAFD9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 10:56.31 | LuitvD | __doc__: I mean... to not be idiotic... |
| 10:57.25 | __doc__ | stfu? |
| 10:57.59 | __doc__ | (or at least that's what I have learned would be an appropriate degradation of conversionalist quality at such a point) |
| 10:58.22 | __doc__ | (next up l33tspeek and aoltalk) |
| 10:58.40 | LuitvD | what I mean is... you can't have everything, and you'll have to be able to accept that |
| 10:58.41 | LuitvD | ... |
| 10:59.26 | __doc__ | LuitvD: not beeing able to have something and wanting it nevertheless are not the same things |
| 10:59.32 | *** join/#openmoko l4rs (n=laprican@hsiproxy.astra-net.com) |
| 11:00.13 | LuitvD | __doc__: not really... it's about having priorities... |
| 11:00.47 | LuitvD | if you want something that has too much downsides to really do/get/fix it, then you don't really want it... |
| 11:01.13 | hrw | __doc__: now you have two options: buy neo1973 (bt, nowifi) in 2007 or wait year more for next version |
| 11:01.38 | __doc__ | but both options are crap :D |
| 11:01.50 | LuitvD | meh :P |
| 11:02.07 | __doc__ | one means I don't have it for too long. the other means I don't have wifi and possible buy it again next year. |
| 11:02.21 | __doc__ | I want the 3rd option |
| 11:02.24 | LuitvD | both options are not exactly as you'd like it to be... but that doesn't mean it's all crap... |
| 11:02.43 | __doc__ | can I get an Y? |
| 11:03.00 | __doc__ | orno wait, I take the joke phone |
| 11:03.05 | __doc__ | joker |
| 11:03.12 | LuitvD | 3rd option: try to get an e2881 and hope someone will get openmoko working on that... |
| 11:03.31 | __doc__ | lotsa potential downsides to that too :) |
| 11:03.37 | __doc__ | like buying, hoping, not getting it to work |
| 11:03.54 | LuitvD | the downsides to that device: it's not really as open as the Neo, and the screen has a quarter of the resolution of the neo |
| 11:04.02 | __doc__ | hmmm |
| 11:04.04 | hrw | __doc__: 3rd option: grab other phone which runs linux and run openmoko on it |
| 11:04.35 | __doc__ | I don't actually need gprs, I could consider grabbing an e-ink display, a gumstix and a battery pack and gluing together the device I want :D |
| 11:04.37 | LuitvD | hrw: my 3rd option is part of that :P |
| 11:04.49 | LuitvD | __doc__: good luck... |
| 11:05.24 | LuitvD | __doc__: I'd like to see you do that :P hell, I might even buy one device off you if you'd succeed... |
| 11:05.43 | koen | sound awfully like an iRex Illiad |
| 11:06.51 | __doc__ | it's the 22nd century, devices are no longer produced, they're mashed up ;) |
| 11:07.51 | buz | lol |
| 11:08.03 | buz | LuitvD: did you email e28? |
| 11:08.34 | LuitvD | buz: I'm first trying to contact a person who lives in hong-kong to let him check for the price |
| 11:08.45 | LuitvD | buz: you're interested aren't you? :P |
| 11:08.45 | buz | oh i have friends in HK |
| 11:08.59 | buz | can get them to check |
| 11:09.16 | buz | currently noone i know is in shanghai |
| 11:09.19 | LuitvD | I'm already having someone to check :P |
| 11:09.24 | buz | ok |
| 11:09.43 | LuitvD | might even be able to get someone to check in shanghai too :D |
| 11:09.56 | buz | i'd be more interested in seeing what kind of source they'd provide |
| 11:10.06 | buz | or if they flat out violate gpl, maybe |
| 11:10.13 | LuitvD | :) |
| 11:10.20 | LuitvD | i don't think they do... |
| 11:10.22 | __doc__ | nobody violates the gpl |
| 11:10.23 | buz | would seem kinda stupid if you go on and on about it being linux based |
| 11:10.34 | LuitvD | __doc__: oh you'll be surprised... |
| 11:10.36 | buz | __doc__: ask LaF0rge about that ;) |
| 11:10.42 | __doc__ | no really |
| 11:11.00 | __doc__ | nobody violates the gpl, it's just all a big missunderstanding, everybody interpretes it as they want to |
| 11:11.01 | LuitvD | __doc__: what, do you think you can do anything you want with GPL'd code? |
| 11:11.18 | __doc__ | no |
| 11:11.19 | LuitvD | __doc__: you clearly never had a look at the GPL and LGPL |
| 11:11.24 | __doc__ | I had |
| 11:11.25 | __doc__ | :) |
| 11:11.37 | LuitvD | the GPL is quite uniform... |
| 11:11.48 | __doc__ | ever read RMS and rosenlaw? |
| 11:11.55 | LuitvD | nope, sorry |
| 11:11.58 | __doc__ | well |
| 11:12.23 | __doc__ | both are opensource advocates, both have written about the gpl, both at the same time, both take diametrally different stances to it's application |
| 11:12.25 | koen | ever seen RMS eat soup? |
| 11:12.36 | __doc__ | mercy? :D |
| 11:12.55 | koen | pray you never have to witness that |
| 11:13.02 | LuitvD | XD |
| 11:13.24 | __doc__ | so if two people from the same camp can't agree how the GPL is to be interpreted, what makes you think corporations, courts and the average joe will interprete it as? |
| 11:13.26 | koen | (and the fact that RMS lacks basic social skills and is anooying) |
| 11:13.51 | __doc__ | he doesn't lack them |
| 11:13.56 | __doc__ | he just optimized them away |
| 11:14.35 | __doc__ | (somebody please disengage that RMS -o option again, please...) |
| 11:15.11 | *** topic/#openmoko by LuitvD -> |
| 11:15.19 | LuitvD | heuh... what happened... |
| 11:15.28 | __doc__ | rofl |
| 11:15.55 | *** topic/#openmoko by Fletch -> OpenMoko Community Lounge <> Free Your Phone <> { www|wiki|bugzilla|planet|projects|lists|svn|svnweb } .openmoko.org | You can buy it in a month or so for $350, see the wiki. Mass market in September. |
| 11:16.18 | LuitvD | thank you Fletch |
| 11:17.25 | buz | can anyone connect to openmoko.org? |
| 11:17.32 | buz | seems like hetzner is seriously f***** up |
| 11:18.35 | LuitvD | buz: what do you mean? |
| 11:18.46 | buz | i cant even get a traceroute beyond my own net |
| 11:18.48 | *** join/#openmoko disguy__160 (i=ariel@gateway/tor/x-5548afa8f8d11004) |
| 11:18.52 | buz | but other than those hosts there, my net works |
| 11:18.53 | LuitvD | oh wait... I see... |
| 11:19.01 | buz | dns lookups work |
| 11:19.06 | buz | but other than that, nothing at all |
| 11:19.07 | LuitvD | it's on it's nose here too |
| 11:19.14 | buz | very interesting traceroutes indeed |
| 11:19.16 | LuitvD | lol |
| 11:19.22 | buz | just beyond my isp, theres a blackhole for that route |
| 11:19.35 | __doc__ | about diametrally different views of the gpl. see http://www.rosenlaw.com/html/GPL.PDF |
| 11:19.53 | buz | and from another isp, i get 2 hops then nothing at all |
| 11:20.16 | LuitvD | I get four hops |
| 11:20.28 | LuitvD | and after that no reply anymore |
| 11:20.31 | buz | there is something seriously wrong |
| 11:20.41 | buz | from hongkong i get 5 hops (til the us) then nothing |
| 11:20.55 | buz | oh no til germany |
| 11:20.58 | empty_mind | guys finally managed to compile opnemoko. How should i proceed ? i want to write apps for openmoko |
| 11:21.02 | buz | dtag is fucked |
| 11:21.36 | LuitvD | mine 's going straight through nl.euro.net for about 4 hops, and then get's lost |
| 11:21.45 | buz | i think decix is fucked up |
| 11:22.01 | vmaster | i get through to 11 free.157.110.193.in-addr.arpa (193.110.157.154) 71.942 ms 75.351 ms 75.765 ms |
| 11:22.31 | vmaster | which is one of the ips wiki.openmoko.org resolves to |
| 11:22.31 | vmaster | but the site wont load |
| 11:22.39 | *** join/#openmoko Marex-debian (n=Marex@85.132.236.161) |
| 11:24.26 | *** join/#openmoko jobi_ (n=jobi@sipdev.ssvl.kth.se) |
| 11:26.11 | buz | weird thinsgs going on in german internet it seems |
| 11:26.12 | *** join/#openmoko Lazerdye (n=thaddock@82-41-154-116.cable.ubr01.linl.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 11:26.51 | *** join/#openmoko etf|work (n=etf|work@82-71-36-214.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) |
| 11:26.57 | LuitvD | buz: dutch internet too... |
| 11:27.15 | buz | switzerland seems to work |
| 11:27.20 | LuitvD | vmaster: ofcourse it resolves... the DNS servers you connect to are caching ;) |
| 11:27.41 | buz | and strato still works |
| 11:27.47 | buz | (which is nothing short of a wonder) |
| 11:28.27 | buz | LuitvD: you should check chinese prices for the e28 if you can |
| 11:28.32 | buz | usually that stuff is much cheaper there |
| 11:28.43 | LuitvD | buz: yeah... probably |
| 11:28.48 | *** join/#openmoko MacNorth_ (n=daijobu@c-75-71-250-33.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 11:29.09 | LuitvD | tracepath of openmoko.org is lost, tracepath of wiki.openmoko.org reaches destination... |
| 11:29.35 | LuitvD | that's just the weirdest thing ever... |
| 11:31.36 | LuitvD | hmm, wiki has the same IP adresses in DNS, though in a diffrent order then www |
| 11:32.14 | LuitvD | no, wait, ignore that... dig replies in random order... |
| 11:32.23 | LuitvD | :) |
| 11:32.31 | vmaster | LuitvD: not only could i resolve it, i could also trace it |
| 11:32.32 | *** join/#openmoko zween (n=zween@80-47-43-169.lond-hex.dynamic.dial.as9105.com) |
| 11:32.47 | LuitvD | vmaster: trace what., the wiki? |
| 11:32.51 | vmaster | wiki, www |
| 11:32.58 | vmaster | both the same ips |
| 11:33.25 | LuitvD | www doesn't reach, doesn't trace beyond nl.euro.net, wiki does reach, does trace |
| 11:34.13 | buz | guys, enter deutschland "space" into firefox google search thingy and wait for suggestions to turn up |
| 11:34.19 | buz | so THATs google's hidden intention |
| 11:35.07 | *** join/#openmoko MDK (n=mdk@cs181209253.pp.htv.fi) |
| 11:47.06 | *** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru) |
| 11:47.15 | *** join/#openmoko _MacNorth (n=daijobu@24.8.201.249) |
| 11:48.49 | *** join/#openmoko nbd (n=nbd@ds10.mine.nu) |
| 11:49.28 | LuitvD | hmm, so it was just a glitch? |
| 11:50.15 | Lazerdye | Aha, svn.openmoko.org is working now, wasn't a few minutes ago. |
| 11:51.10 | LuitvD | Lazerdye: a few minutes ago nothing worked... from www to wiki, from svn to planet |
| 11:52.10 | *** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru) |
| 11:55.59 | *** join/#openmoko parag0n (n=parag0n@popeshoe.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 11:57.36 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (i=foobar@dslb-084-057-146-223.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 11:58.28 | *** join/#openmoko jobi (n=jobi@sipdev.ssvl.kth.se) |
| 12:03.25 | LuitvD | buz: do you think you can choose? between QVGA + more features or VGA + a bit less? |
| 12:04.07 | LuitvD | it'd be really nice if the neo's screen would fit in the e2881... |
| 12:10.58 | *** join/#openmoko ynezz_ (i=inezz@195.113.97.158) |
| 12:11.32 | *** join/#openmoko MacNorth_ (n=daijobu@c-75-71-250-33.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 12:16.29 | buz | i'm leaning towards QVGA IF it can run openmoko |
| 12:16.52 | buz | you want to exchange screens? |
| 12:16.56 | buz | good lukc with that hehehe |
| 12:17.06 | robtaylor | koen: building openmoko-image, fails in udev-092-r15 |
| 12:17.11 | robtaylor | ERROR: QA issue: libvolume_id.pc failed sanity test (reference to /usr/include or workdir) |
| 12:17.43 | LuitvD | buz: yeah :P |
| 12:17.52 | koen | robtaylor: I have a fix for that, bit I am waiting on feedback |
| 12:17.59 | *** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru) |
| 12:18.05 | robtaylor | koen: i'll hapilly try it :) |
| 12:18.17 | LuitvD | buz: it should be possible to build a QVGA front-end for openmoko |
| 12:18.26 | koen | robtaylor: you can get around it by removing "insane" from INHERITS in conf/distro/includes/angstrom.inc |
| 12:18.51 | koen | LuitvD: like http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=197 ? |
| 12:19.17 | robtaylor | koen: i don't mind testing or finding a real solution |
| 12:19.39 | LuitvD | koen: exactly... |
| 12:20.10 | buz | i'm more worried about actually getting openmoko stack on there |
| 12:20.13 | koen | robtaylor: I have a real solution: setting PKG_CONFIG_PATH in OE to lib/pkgconfig instead of share/pkgconfig, since Xorg doesn't honour it... |
| 12:20.30 | buz | that openmoko will be ported to QVGA i take as a given, considering that the OpenEZX devices all have qvga |
| 12:20.56 | koen | robtaylor: but it requires everyone to do 'mv <staging>/share/pkgconfig/* <staging>/lib/pkgconfig' |
| 12:21.00 | *** join/#openmoko yacc (n=andreas@h1634.serverkompetenz.net) |
| 12:21.11 | robtaylor | koen: whu? xorg doesnt honour PKG_CONFIG_PATH? |
| 12:21.41 | robtaylor | well, i can fix that, i'm sure, but why does that cause udev build to fail? |
| 12:21.49 | koen | robtaylor: it puts the .pc files in ${prefix}/lib/pkgconfig regardless of PKG_CONFIG_PATH |
| 12:22.27 | koen | robtaylor: it checks all pkgconfig files, not just the one from udev |
| 12:23.19 | robtaylor | koen: well, standard thing is to use $(libdir)/pkgconfig |
| 12:23.27 | *** join/#openmoko ynezz (i=inezz@195.113.97.158) |
| 12:23.58 | *** join/#openmoko Demitar_ (n=demitar@c-212-031-189-208.cust.broadway.se) |
| 12:24.41 | robtaylor | koen: so yeah, share/pkgconfig seems very wrong to me |
| 12:25.32 | koen | well, it could be umbaumba/foo/bar/ for all that matters |
| 12:25.41 | koen | packages should obey PKG_CONFIG_PATH |
| 12:26.02 | koen | but since almost every package doesn't..... |
| 12:26.14 | robtaylor | koen: no, PKG_CONFIG_PATH is just for configure-time |
| 12:26.21 | robtaylor | koen: not for install time |
| 12:26.29 | koen | weird |
| 12:26.37 | koen | I'd expect it to be symmetrical |
| 12:26.53 | robtaylor | koen: not really, its meant for if you've got sepearete prefix's you're using |
| 12:27.03 | buz | LuitvD: we need to figure out how linux support for omap 730 is |
| 12:27.33 | robtaylor | koen: it'd be non-trivial to use it for install-time |
| 12:27.33 | koen | buz: linux.omap.com |
| 12:27.36 | LuitvD | buz: i reckon it's just like for arm... |
| 12:27.41 | hrw | buz: omap730 is supported |
| 12:27.46 | buz | oh thats good |
| 12:27.48 | buz | also in x? |
| 12:27.59 | buz | (says it has 2d accelerator) |
| 12:28.09 | LuitvD | uhu |
| 12:28.20 | hrw | buz: if machine has working framebuffer then it has working X too |
| 12:28.33 | buz | hrw: why use framebuffer if you can accelerated x... |
| 12:28.42 | buz | but ack, framebuffer would be enough for starters |
| 12:29.00 | hrw | buz: the magic word 'if' |
| 12:29.24 | robtaylor | koen: well, tbc, it'd require every project to do AC_SUBST(PKG_CONFIG_PATH) in configure.in and pkgconfigdir = $(PKG_CONFIG_PATH) in the makefile.am |
| 12:29.39 | robtaylor | koen: butthat may well break existing build systems |
| 12:30.11 | robtaylor | and of course require multi-lateral agreement ;) |
| 12:30.13 | buz | the gsm module in neo is from TI right? |
| 12:31.04 | koen | buz: yes, TI calypso |
| 12:31.08 | buz | yeah, docs on getting uboot running on a the omap1610 dev board |
| 12:31.39 | LuitvD | OMAP v3 is nice... |
| 12:32.03 | LuitvD | i mean... OMAP generation 3 |
| 12:32.25 | robtaylor | koen: so is the problem that insanity is checking that the pkgconfig it being put in the right(wrong?) place? |
| 12:33.07 | robtaylor | koen: oh, the other problem with obeying PKG_CONFIG_PATH, is that it'd override make install DISTDIR= |
| 12:33.12 | robtaylor | koen: which would really suck |
| 12:33.13 | buz | mhh if pricing isnt too out of reach i just might buy a e2881 |
| 12:33.13 | buz | and see if it works |
| 12:33.45 | buz | if not, maybe the integrated firmware can be put to use |
| 12:34.00 | *** join/#openmoko mitsuhiko (n=nblackbi@hammett.srv.pocoo.org) |
| 12:34.05 | buz | and if that one sucks badly, its not the first useless gadget i bought ;) |
| 12:34.26 | LuitvD | lol, same here |
| 12:35.01 | LuitvD | tried to hack linux on my PDA, which worked a little... getting your own distro running on a linux phone should be easier... |
| 12:35.07 | koen | robtaylor: the problem is insanity checks all .pc files, which in the the sanitized ones in share/pkgconfig and the broken ones in lib/pkgconfig |
| 12:35.14 | buz | LuitvD: SHOULD |
| 12:35.20 | LuitvD | should, yes :P |
| 12:35.28 | buz | i dont even care so much for actual the distro |
| 12:35.36 | robtaylor | koen: well, have i convinced you that share/pkgconfig is just plain wrong? |
| 12:35.37 | koen | robtaylor: have a look at classes/pkgconfig.bbclass to see what OE does to unbreak pkgconfig files |
| 12:35.38 | buz | openmoko userland would be good for starters |
| 12:35.38 | LuitvD | sure hope it is... coz' I used some nasty hacks to get linux running on my pda... |
| 12:35.44 | koen | robtaylor: yes |
| 12:35.49 | robtaylor | koen: cool |
| 12:35.56 | buz | i just wonder what happens when you brick those |
| 12:36.00 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@24.crcr10.xdsl.nauticom.net) |
| 12:36.15 | LuitvD | buz: a Palm PDA? or that e2881's? :P |
| 12:36.23 | buz | both, really |
| 12:36.29 | LuitvD | lol |
| 12:36.34 | koen | robtaylor: I'm testing a build with http://rafb.net/p/u3fpPS66.html to see how much breaks |
| 12:36.34 | LuitvD | just my thoughts |
| 12:36.42 | buz | i think only more recent kernels can load another one on top of them right? |
| 12:36.50 | robtaylor | koen: cool :) |
| 12:37.09 | buz | sort of like "chain booting" |
| 12:37.36 | buz | if you can get the phone to boot from sd card, perfect |
| 12:37.55 | LuitvD | buz: for my PDA, it required nasty hacks :P |
| 12:38.02 | LuitvD | to simply bood off SD |
| 12:38.08 | LuitvD | s/bood/boot/ |
| 12:38.14 | buz | i know for winmob it needs haret thingy |
| 12:38.27 | LuitvD | it's a palm pda |
| 12:38.29 | LuitvD | :P |
| 12:39.03 | LuitvD | it required garux, a specially partitioned SD card, and early swap allocation |
| 12:39.17 | robtaylor | koen: i don't understand why you need get_pkgconfig_mangle, can you explain? |
| 12:39.21 | buz | is there like loadlin for linux? |
| 12:39.38 | LuitvD | ... |
| 12:39.40 | LuitvD | chroot? |
| 12:40.10 | buz | well can you replace the kernel in flight? |
| 12:40.21 | LuitvD | dunno... |
| 12:40.25 | dottedmag | buz: kexec syscall. dunno whether it works. |
| 12:40.27 | LuitvD | think it'll panic if you try that... |
| 12:40.49 | koen | robtaylor: -I/usr/include -L/usr/lib is not something you want during crosscompiling |
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| 12:41.19 | buz | kexec is 2.5.48 plus i think |
| 12:41.20 | robtaylor | koen: usually its prefix=${pcfiledir}/../.. |
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| 12:42.09 | robtaylor | pcfiledir is the place the pkgconfig is picked up from |
| 12:42.47 | buz | LuitvD: some (old sites) say kexec is x86 only |
| 12:42.48 | robtaylor | koen: so as long as the pkgconfig files are in {STAGING_LIBDIR}/pkgconfig, it should just work |
| 12:43.02 | koen | buz: kexec works on arm as well |
| 12:43.08 | koen | buz: it's in 2.6.21 |
| 12:43.27 | buz | yeah like we have 2.6.21 on an off the shelf phone ;) |
| 12:43.28 | koen | robtaylor: sadly it isn't that simple :( |
| 12:44.31 | robtaylor | oh ? |
| 12:44.50 | koen | not with the old pkgconfig we use in OE |
| 12:45.00 | koen | and newer versions don't compile |
| 12:45.14 | robtaylor | i'm sure i can come up with a patch ;) |
| 12:45.19 | koen | (who's idea was it to fork glib and put it in pkgconfig?) |
| 12:45.28 | robtaylor | ?? |
| 12:45.41 | koen | you didn't know? |
| 12:45.50 | koen | glibc comes with its own private glib |
| 12:45.50 | koen | ehm |
| 12:45.55 | koen | s/glibc/pkgconfig/ |
| 12:46.19 | robtaylor | interesting =) i guess that was due to KDE glib-hatred ;) |
| 12:46.54 | robtaylor | course, everone has glib installed nowadays, so it could probably change |
| 12:47.19 | robtaylor | koen: but pkgconfig 0.15 should work like i just described |
| 12:48.38 | daxxar | Is 2.6.20 out yet? |
| 12:48.53 | buz | daxxar: yes |
| 12:48.58 | buz | i'm running it on my desktop ;) |
| 12:48.59 | daxxar | It has kvm, right? <3 |
| 12:49.05 | buz | should have |
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| 12:49.27 | LuitvD | buz: running your own kernel on that e2881 should be possible with some u-boot hacking... if that's possible on that device |
| 12:49.47 | buz | i guess the whole question is: can you get root |
| 12:50.09 | robtaylor | koen: anyhow, i'll try addinf a pkgconfig_0.20.bb and make some patches. I know tollef pretty well, so i'm sure i can get him to apply them ;) |
| 12:50.23 | buz | LuitvD: unless you are reaaaaly adventurous and just reflash the damn thing ;) |
| 12:50.31 | LuitvD | :) |
| 12:50.42 | koen | sweet, it's payday |
| 12:50.51 | LuitvD | buz: and simply face the risk of bricking it? |
| 12:51.03 | buz | thats why you need to be adventurous |
| 12:52.54 | LuitvD | :) |
| 12:53.00 | buz | it really comes down to what kind of sources you can get from e38 |
| 12:54.18 | LuitvD | buz: are you going to ask them? or is it my turn? :P |
| 12:54.31 | buz | lets wait for a price ;) |
| 12:54.35 | *** join/#openmoko apardo (n=apardo@87.217.145.57) |
| 12:54.43 | buz | or maybe i can ask both |
| 12:54.50 | buz | whom shall i ask, hk, shanghai or us |
| 12:55.23 | LuitvD | err... ask the e28 CEO :P |
| 12:56.12 | LuitvD | buz: i guess contact@e28.com |
| 12:56.27 | LuitvD | the HK email is really just about sales... |
| 12:59.56 | LuitvD | buz: it'd be great if you had access to a JTAG port on that e2881 |
| 13:00.17 | LuitvD | buz: are you mailing or am I? :P |
| 13:00.28 | buz | writing the mail right now |
| 13:00.30 | LuitvD | :) |
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| 13:10.11 | vmaster | what uC is in that e2881? |
| 13:10.20 | SpeedEvil | counder |
| 13:10.29 | SpeedEvil | s/nd/nt/ |
| 13:10.42 | SpeedEvil | counter |
| 13:10.43 | aloril | P0: 6 days 22:49:17 (0.951 - 6.951 days); P1: 22.951 - 37.951; P2: 190.951 - 220.951 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (383) |
| 13:10.59 | buz | vmaster: omap730 |
| 13:11.07 | LuitvD | :) |
| 13:11.09 | vmaster | buz: thx |
| 13:11.12 | LuitvD | which is ARM |
| 13:11.32 | buz | i interpret it to be single chip actually |
| 13:11.41 | LuitvD | d'oh |
| 13:11.58 | buz | arm7 for the baseband, arm926 for applications |
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| 13:19.13 | buz | http://focus.ti.com/general/docs/wtbu/wtbuproductcontent.tsp?templateId=6123&navigationId=11979&contentId=4696 |
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| 14:19.16 | rboehme | counter |
| 14:19.17 | aloril | P0: 6 days 21:40:43 (0.903 - 6.903 days); P1: 22.903 - 37.903; P2: 190.903 - 220.903 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (384) |
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| 14:35.00 | robtaylor | koen|uni: ok, got pkg-config 0.21 building :) |
| 14:35.10 | robtaylor | koen|uni: just failing QA now |
| 14:35.39 | robtaylor | koen|uni: http://rafb.net/p/mrTtno94.html |
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| 14:46.02 | koen|uni | robtaylor: that's unrelated QA (fakeroot and stuff) |
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| 15:01.36 | parag0n_ | does anyone know if the moko supports 2gb MicroSD cards? |
| 15:02.06 | hrw | parag0n_: depends on hardware which runs it |
| 15:02.12 | mjr | heh |
| 15:02.35 | mjr | but yea, the neo1973 has been tested with at least one model of 2gb microsd |
| 15:02.39 | mjr | wasit sandisk or something |
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| 15:03.44 | Lazerdye | List of supported microSD cards: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Supported_microSD_cards |
| 15:03.49 | parag0n_ | i'm assuming there'll be microSDHC cards soon, hope we get support for them :D |
| 15:03.53 | *** join/#openmoko ynezz_ (i=inezz@195.113.97.158) |
| 15:05.32 | PBeck | hi |
| 15:05.51 | mjr | Yah, there's been some indications that sdhc _might_ work with a driver upgrade. But I don't know for sure. |
| 15:06.17 | mjr | I'll probably settle for the default 512M card for a while, see how much extra space I yearn |
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| 15:41.10 | cbpage | the kingston 1gb is pretty cheap at newegg - like $13 w/shipping |
| 15:45.09 | cbpage | ok $15 |
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| 16:04.38 | cjb | ol |
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| 16:08.17 | buz | how much ram is left once teh basic stack is loaded? |
| 16:08.58 | *** join/#openmoko behdad (n=behdad@63.250.163.171) |
| 16:10.29 | LuitvD | and does openmoko run on 64MB's of ram... |
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| 17:04.29 | SpeedEvil | cbpage: is that SD - not microSD though. |
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| 17:42.33 | univac | i emulating jabba's rootfs in qemu and when i kill x and want to start the x session by startx s won't run |
| 17:44.33 | koen | startx? |
| 17:44.34 | *** join/#openmoko mako (n=mako@bork.hampshire.edu) |
| 17:44.35 | koen | what's that? |
| 17:44.59 | univac | http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/1599/49593615jx2.png |
| 17:45.10 | Stephmw | startx is a little oldsKool :) |
| 17:45.41 | univac | so how can i run x session? |
| 17:45.45 | loft306 | xinit is older |
| 17:45.51 | univac | except startx? |
| 17:46.54 | Stephmw | univac: you might want to try adding "127.0.0.1 qmuearm" to /etc/hosts |
| 17:47.27 | Stephmw | err, qemuarm even |
| 17:47.32 | Stephmw | excuse my two left hands |
| 17:47.40 | Stephmw | .. and 10 thumbs |
| 17:47.44 | loft306 | did you configure xorg ? |
| 17:47.49 | koen | xorg? |
| 17:47.54 | koen | what's that? |
| 17:48.27 | koen | Stephmw: giving the answer people need is so boring ;) |
| 17:48.55 | Stephmw | koen: typing on IRC never will be that exciting ;) |
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| 17:50.23 | LuitvD | lol @ koen |
| 17:51.50 | univac | oh, works by init.d/xser.. script |
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| 18:09.03 | sixfeet | tagchen |
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| 18:44.31 | koen | ~botmail for xkr47: http://www.openembedded.org/viewmtn/diff.psp?id1=4b0e693188daff03f827e74d152209f6c65eed49&id2=de732b9edab14596e25612f268a89373d0b775ab |
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| 18:56.11 | florian | hi all |
| 18:57.04 | LuitvD | hello |
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| 19:17.30 | sixfeet | counter |
| 19:17.30 | aloril | P0: 6 days 16:42:29 (0.696 - 6.696 days); P1: 22.696 - 37.696; P2: 190.696 - 220.696 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (385) |
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| 20:03.18 | sixfeet | ich brauche dringendst ein neues tel. ... beeilt euch mal ;) |
| 20:04.53 | LoDown | i agree |
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| 20:06.21 | koen | oh no! |
| 20:06.27 | koen | the feared german cipher |
| 20:06.46 | LoDown | means LoDown is a hott hott man |
| 20:06.49 | LoDown | ::grin:: |
| 20:07.00 | woglinde | koen? |
| 20:07.10 | sixfeet | höö? |
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| 20:08.43 | sixfeet | try to decrypt cipher ;) |
| 20:08.43 | *** join/#openmoko Ryushin (i=proxy@windwalker.openinnovations.com) |
| 20:08.43 | koen | for me it's easy |
| 20:08.55 | sixfeet | ahh unsere nachbarn aus nl *fg* |
| 20:09.57 | sixfeet | koen, u can send me some coffee-pads ;) |
| 20:10.19 | sixfeet | my sanseo needs lots of them |
| 20:12.27 | sixfeet | ^^ |
| 20:13.00 | sixfeet | chocomel is echt lekker |
| 20:13.24 | koen | especially warm with some rum |
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| 20:13.53 | leventhal | i could go for some rum |
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| 20:23.14 | sixfeet | lots of .nl in here |
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| 21:12.39 | *** join/#openmoko MagicFab (n=magicfab@ubuntu/member/magicfab) |
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| 21:33.04 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03laforge * r1078 10/trunk/src/host/dfu-util/ (13 files in 2 dirs): initial (unfinished) version of new DFU utility (dfu-programmer just sucks as something generic, device independent) |
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| 21:36.12 | *** part/#openmoko tampakuro (n=Dave@229-25.73-24.tampabay.res.rr.com) |
| 21:36.39 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03laforge * r1079 10/trunk/src/host/dfu-util/ (configure.ac m4/): add missing configure.ac and 'm4' directory |
| 21:39.08 | *** join/#openmoko rob_ (n=rob@ACB08605.ipt.aol.com) |
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| 21:43.34 | LuitvD | ~last QVGA |
| 21:43.42 | LuitvD | ... |
| 21:44.18 | robtaylor | stefan_schmidt: so, say i build openmoko-image for a780, what do you reckon the chances are it'll wrok in the slightest? ;) |
| 21:45.23 | LuitvD | that motorola thing? |
| 21:45.27 | MagicFab | Hi - I wanted to know what would be the best way to get support for OpenMoko in Ubuntu... I work at Canonical Support, saw the OpenMoko at the last Ubucon - tx. mako :) |
| 21:46.06 | LuitvD | robtaylor: what's the resolution on that thing? |
| 21:46.15 | LuitvD | MagicFab: what do you want to know? |
| 21:46.22 | MagicFab | I mean what resources would OpenMoko need / make available. I'd like to volunteer to make any needed contacts within Canonical |
| 21:46.32 | stefan_schmidt | robtaylor: First of all you need the qvga theme from bug 197. If you have luck it will be useable as PDA. For phone functions you need to *flash* the kernel and port our mux_cli to the new TS07.10 infrstructure. |
| 21:46.50 | woglinde | magicfab? |
| 21:46.51 | MagicFab | This is a personal initiative, BTW, although many people here are excited and follow OpenMoko |
| 21:47.04 | woglinde | fic sponsors openmoko |
| 21:47.19 | woglinde | maybee best is you write sean an email |
| 21:47.32 | stefan_schmidt | robtaylor: If you wait some weeks we will do all these for you. :) |
| 21:47.33 | robtaylor | stefan_schmidt: cool, i'll have a try at the 1st bit then.maybe we can hack a bit on the last bit at fosdem ;) |
| 21:47.48 | stefan_schmidt | robtaylor: Would be cool |
| 21:47.59 | LuitvD | damn, i want to go to fosdem... |
| 21:48.02 | LuitvD | but I can't... |
| 21:48.03 | stefan_schmidt | robtaylor: koen already has build openmoko for a780 |
| 21:48.04 | robtaylor | stefan_schmidt: are you staying in hotel astrid as well, ooi? |
| 21:48.20 | stefan_schmidt | robtaylor: Poor student. I'm in a youth hostel. |
| 21:48.45 | stefan_schmidt | robtaylor: http://www.linuxtogo.org/~koen/index.php?path=a780/ |
| 21:48.52 | robtaylor | stefan_schmidt: damn, you'd think someone would have stumped up for a hotel for you ;) |
| 21:49.31 | stefan_schmidt | robtaylor: I stucked for me at the ts calibration. Somehow the ts had not worked. |
| 21:49.58 | stefan_schmidt | robtaylor: Nobody wrote me about that, so I took the youth hostel. :) |
| 21:50.25 | MagicFab | woglinde, do you have an email for "sean" ? There's no contact info at http://openmoko.org/ |
| 21:50.26 | robtaylor | stefan_schmidt: ah well, maybe next time :) |
| 21:50.36 | stefan_schmidt | Today I got a openmoko x86 build and forst xoo stuff working. |
| 21:50.46 | robtaylor | cool :) |
| 21:50.48 | stefan_schmidt | robtaylor: Jep, perhaps. :) |
| 21:52.22 | stefan_schmidt | http://www.datenfreihafen.org/~stefan/tmp/OpenMoko-x86-xoo.png |
| 21:52.22 | woglinde | magicfab -> http://www.openmoko.com/press/index.html |
| 21:52.23 | robtaylor | i need to remeber to pick up a new transflash card on the way to bruge.. mine's died horribly |
| 21:52.23 | cjb | ok, we have our Neo working here. but the image on it doesn't have X working. how can I log in/throw a new OE build on it? |
| 21:52.23 | stefan_schmidt | robtaylor: I plan some hacking for fosdem. Not sure if I can really do it. Chatting with people could be more interesting |
| 21:52.24 | cjb | Maybe bluetooth networking or something? But I don't know if that comes up by default. |
| 21:52.24 | robtaylor | stefan_schmidt: yeah, it is the real reason we go |
| 21:52.29 | stefan_schmidt | robtaylor: exactly |
| 21:52.31 | mako_ | MagicFab: hah :) |
| 21:52.49 | robtaylor | stefan_schmidt: whenever i plan hacking, it never happens, even last guadec, when there was loads of spare time |
| 21:53.04 | robtaylor | mako_: dude! |
| 21:53.11 | cjb | sweet! |
| 21:53.22 | mako_ | cjb: ah.. did you get it to charge or are you just running it off 3.7v? |
| 21:53.32 | mako_ | robtaylor: hey there |
| 21:53.35 | stefan_schmidt | robtaylor: hmm, guadec. When was it again? |
| 21:53.58 | Clint | cjb: can you get it to show up as a usb device properly? |
| 21:53.59 | robtaylor | stefan_schmidt: last june |
| 21:54.03 | cjb | mako_: We're just running it, but also looking at hooking the battery up to the power supply. |
| 21:54.15 | Clint | cjb: it was giving me address assignment errors |
| 21:54.26 | cjb | Clint: oh, that's no good. |
| 21:54.35 | stefan_schmidt | robtaylor: ah, and this time in july. I see. |
| 21:54.52 | robtaylor | stefan_schmidt: yeah, you coming? |
| 21:54.55 | Clint | cjb: you may be able to get the bootloader to pop up over usbtty.. i'd try that first if you can |
| 21:55.36 | MagicFab | mako, :) I was asking about supporting the OpenMoko in Ubuntu - I am not really familiar with the project but it was suggested I contact Sean Mosko |
| 21:55.57 | stefan_schmidt | robtaylor: hmm, never thought about it until now. |
| 21:56.19 | mako | MagicFab: i think support in ubuntu will be pretty good.. i wouldn't worry about that until its working at all :) |
| 21:56.27 | woglinde | magicfab uh I thought you want to make contact with canonical |
| 21:56.28 | stefan_schmidt | MagicFab: Best would be to have it supported in all distros |
| 21:56.33 | cjb | Clint: ok, do you know how? |
| 21:56.34 | LuitvD | who wants to help me send a request to E28? |
| 21:56.34 | woglinde | magicfab now thats diffrent |
| 21:56.36 | woglinde | *sigh* |
| 21:57.13 | stefan_schmidt | LuitvD: For code? |
| 21:57.23 | LuitvD | stefan_schmidt: for anything... |
| 21:57.29 | Clint | cjb: no, i didn't get that far |
| 21:57.30 | LuitvD | stefan_schmidt: for some info basically... |
| 21:57.40 | MagicFab | woglinde, I *am* at Canonical :) |
| 21:57.46 | LuitvD | stefan_schmidt: we can't just mail them about code at first contact... |
| 21:57.56 | Clint | cjb: the other option was serial over the debug board. i'm not sure if it's an either/or setting |
| 21:58.24 | MagicFab | stefan_schmidt, I know, but the one I can help is Ubuntu. Just preparing for future support calls asking about OpenMoko :) |
| 21:58.26 | LuitvD | stefan_schmidt: that's one of my questions too... |
| 21:58.43 | cjb | Clint: We still don't have a debug board. |
| 21:58.47 | LuitvD | stefan_schmidt: but wouldn't you like to see an e2881 run moko? |
| 21:58.50 | Clint | cjb: i figured |
| 21:58.59 | mako | cjb: yeah... working on that |
| 21:59.25 | stefan_schmidt | LuitvD: Get press address and ask about how to download the code. You can't find something on the www. Mention that not providing the code is illegal. |
| 21:59.47 | MagicFab | mako, I imagine you're still involved with Ubuntu / not sure about that. In any case I offered contact info to Sean Mosko. I'd personally like to see it officially supported the day it comes out, seing the current state of painful setup/support for most phones. |
| 21:59.59 | stefan_schmidt | LuitvD: I like to see it running on every phone with enough power for it. :) |
| 22:00.09 | *** join/#openmoko rwhitby (n=rwhitby@nslu2-linux/rwhitby) |
| 22:00.17 | MagicFab | tx. to all for the answers |
| 22:00.31 | LuitvD | stefan_schmidt: I've set up a part of a draft... I don't intent on getting everything right away... maybe if we treat them nice, they'll help us... |
| 22:01.04 | stefan_schmidt | LuitvD: Perhaps, but I doubt that. Anyway you can try it. |
| 22:01.19 | LuitvD | stefan_schmidt: we should get first contact anyways, and if that all goes well, we can always get the core team involved in possibly getting more info... |
| 22:01.22 | stefan_schmidt | robtaylor: Is guadec nice? |
| 22:02.28 | stefan_schmidt | LuitvD: Go ahead and keep me informed.:) |
| 22:02.58 | LuitvD | stefan_schmidt: I mean... I know I want one of those devices, and I want it to run moko... so I could first find out more about the availability of the device for european countries... and try to get them to say I can reflash u-boot or something :P |
| 22:03.46 | LuitvD | stefan_schmidt: for what I've seen so-far the newer e28 devices are awefully similar to the system the Neo uses... |
| 22:04.46 | stefan_schmidt | LuitvD: Ask them and hope. |
| 22:04.49 | LuitvD | :) |
| 22:05.37 | LuitvD | yeah... hope, pray, scream for mercy and go through any emotion I can find... |
| 22:05.46 | LuitvD | anything for a device like that :) |
| 22:06.33 | woglinde | greenphone |
| 22:06.47 | LuitvD | should I talk to them as an individual, or as a member of the openmoko community? (which I'm not really completely... actually...) |
| 22:07.31 | LuitvD | (I mean... I'm here a lot the last week... but I haven't really done anything for openmoko yet... so far ...) |
| 22:07.45 | LuitvD | (I'd do anything to get moko running on that thing though...) |
| 22:07.50 | hrw | LuitvD: like probably most of people here |
| 22:08.05 | LuitvD | yeah... |
| 22:08.05 | woglinde | counter |
| 22:08.06 | aloril | P0: 6 days 13:51:54 (0.578 - 6.578 days); P1: 22.578 - 37.578; P2: 190.578 - 220.578 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (386) |
| 22:08.42 | LuitvD | hrw: will I become a hero here if I can get E28 to collaborate with openmoko inc. ? |
| 22:09.11 | LuitvD | (or just the openmoko community) |
| 22:11.11 | LuitvD | guess it'll piss FIC of if E28 limited gets too involved at this stage... |
| 22:11.33 | LuitvD | s/of/off/ |
| 22:24.53 | *** join/#openmoko kresp0 (n=kresp0@87.218.150.230) |
| 22:30.08 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@dsl093-060-111.pit1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 22:37.04 | LuitvD | damn, it's as if the national railsagency in the netherlands never heard of redundancy... two hardwarefaillures in rotterdam and utrecht delayed trains for hours... |
| 22:37.13 | LuitvD | :S |
| 22:38.52 | mxn | at least it takes 2 failures |
| 22:39.41 | *** part/#openmoko scott_ (i=scott@crackaddict.com) |
| 22:40.02 | hrw | cu |
| 22:40.13 | woglinde | nite hrw |
| 22:41.04 | hrw|gone | woglinde: cu @fosdem or not? |
| 22:42.08 | CoreDump|home | hi |
| 22:45.24 | woglinde | hi coredump |
| 22:46.04 | CoreDump|home | counter |
| 22:46.04 | aloril | P0: 6 days 13:13:55 (0.551 - 6.551 days); P1: 22.551 - 37.551; P2: 190.551 - 220.551 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (387) |
| 22:46.15 | CoreDump|home | days go by slow |
| 22:47.46 | woglinde | coredump *g* |
| 22:50.02 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03werner * r1080 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/ (3 files): preliminary checkin of small start.S changes |
| 22:58.11 | *** join/#openmoko Magon (n=Magon@archangel.kolej.mff.cuni.cz) |
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| 23:17.52 | LuitvD | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:18.03 | LuitvD | that was one faillure in rotterdam, causing delays |
| 23:18.09 | LuitvD | and one in utrecht causing delays |
| 23:20.12 | mxn | haha, crap |
| 23:23.22 | *** join/#openmoko sixfeet (n=sixfeet@p5484D7CC.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 23:26.37 | sixfeet | re |
| 23:27.49 | LuitvD | mxn: that's why I said... it's like they never heard of redundancy... coz' it's one computer (per location) that froze/broke |
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| 23:48.07 | *** join/#openmoko mikesh (n=mikesh@x133.net.upc.cz) |
