irclog2html for #openmoko on 20070221

00:01.39Elrond~change 60 usd to eur
00:01.51CIA-7openmoko: 03werner * r1063 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/ (7 files):
00:01.51CIA-7openmoko: split uboot-s3c2410-splash.patch into its components: raise-limits.patch,
00:01.51CIA-7openmoko:  set-hwswp.patch, enable-splash-bmp.patch, splashimage-command.patch, and
00:01.51CIA-7openmoko:  cmd-unzip.patch
00:06.41pirulostupid question, why not power the usb port?
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00:17.13Elrondpirulo - Because that would need 5V and 100mA. The battery has only 3.7V.
00:18.17ElrondAnyway. Good night people.
00:20.23piruloElrond - thanks, I'll just carry a battery around,
00:25.16CIA-7openmoko: 03werner * r1064 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/ (series splashimage-command.patch):
00:25.16CIA-7openmoko: Changed order of patches: enable CONFIG_UNZIP only after it's actually
00:25.16CIA-7openmoko:  supported.
00:30.10LetoToohh ciabot here too. cool :)
00:34.56MacNorthhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/How_to_run_OpenMoko_Apps_on_PC :: Compiling sample apps -- there isn't an autogen.sh in OM-2007/examples . there isn't even a configure.ac/configure.in for autoreconf to use
00:35.38MacNorthhow can i build the example applications?
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00:51.38SpeedEvilCoreDump|home http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Bootloader - serial questions anwsert
00:53.51CoreDump|homeIn other words: the debug board provides a true serial port
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00:58.10jaebird_Just got the March issue of Linux Magazine...there is an article about Motorola and their Linux phones.
00:58.17CIA-7openmoko: 03werner * r1065 10/trunk/src/host/splash/ (. README splashimg.pl): Splash screen image converter with usage and install instructions.
00:59.01jaebird_I cannot believe the gushing that was in there. No mention of other truly open efforts like OpenMoko
00:59.19stefan_schmidtjaebird_: Who is the author?
00:59.39jaebird_Elizabeth Millard freelance tech writer
01:00.04cjbjaebird_: I have an openmoko here and a bunch of people have no idea what it is.  The publicity hasn't been *that* good.
01:00.28stefan_schmidtjaebird_: hmm, never heard. Is the article available online?
01:00.35jaebird_She talks a bit about motodev initiative...but moto does NOT want people coding on their phones...must use Java :(
01:01.09stefan_schmidtcjb: It's still a pre developer device. I hope for better marketing in September
01:01.09parag0njaebird_, write in
01:01.36jaebird_Here is a quote... "In addition to being the open source phone king of the hill, Motorola also wants to be a major part of driving Linux adoption and development within the industry"
01:01.50jaebird_:)
01:01.54stefan_schmidtaargh
01:02.02stefan_schmidtbullshit detector
01:02.09jaebird_Isn't it Montavista...not motorola
01:02.20stefan_schmidtBoth bullshit
01:02.24stefan_schmidtheh
01:02.25jaebird_motorola doesn't do kernel development, unless it is ther power mgmt hack
01:03.06jaebird_i mean that motorola didn't start anything...they got an old kernel from montavista and proceeded to poop on it some more.
01:03.13stefan_schmidtjaebird_: They have done kernel dev. They changes the mad to the *2.4.20* kernel have moto copyright and moto email addresses
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01:03.29jaebird_:)
01:04.08jaebird_if seen some of the threads at motodev begging motorola to release an sdk so people can actually do stuff (full disclosure... I have an E2)
01:04.16jaebird_s/if/I've/
01:04.57stefan_schmidtIndeed they have a native linux SDK, but only for cooperate partners...
01:05.20jaebird_it just burns me up...and I WILL write in. There are several telecom articles in this issue...I have not seen any OpenMoko reference yet.
01:05.46jaebird_stefan_schmidt: yes ofcourse...we take visa or mastercard!
01:05.53jaebird_augghh
01:06.55jaebird_I should write an alternate view article highlighting OpenMoko as the "King" of Mobile...yadayada
01:07.22stefan_schmidtheh
01:08.21jaebird_one more quote and I'll stop..."Some hurdles that will likely have to be jumped include policies on how security is implemented. Making the phones absolutely rock solid and unable to be cracked is a possibility, but not yet a reality."
01:09.07stefan_schmidtAt least not if they have a root shell without password open.
01:09.32jaebird_This is quoting Mark VandenBrink, Senior Director and Chief Platform Architect of Motorola Mobile Devices
01:09.46jaebird_man that is a long title!
01:10.04stefan_schmidtWhy should a author write something about locked down phones in a linux magazine. It's all about freedom. sigh
01:10.14jaebird_people do NOT get it.
01:10.39jaebird_I don't know how many times I try to get it across it is like talking to a "deer in the headlights"
01:10.54stefan_schmidtAh, and I'm Lead architect system level of OpenEZX
01:10.54CIA-7openmoko: 03werner * r1066 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-neo1973-resume.patch: http://www.fluff.org/ben/openmoko/uboot-neo1973-resume5.patch
01:11.24jaebird_Kinda like Steve Balmer blaiming pirates in China and Russia for Vista's slow sales...what about the 2 gig of ram and 256mb video card requirements?
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01:11.49jaebird_He said they will have to increase WGA lock downs
01:12.35MacNorththe debian repos on http://www.openembedded.org/wiki/OEandYourDistro won't work with apt-get :-\
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01:13.00jaebird_I want to see FIC make a billion dollars on their Neo hardware platform to prove to the world that this is not a joke
01:15.07stefan_schmidtI doubt that. But we can help by spreading the word. Ask people what they hate about their mobiles, etc...
01:15.57jaebirdNot if they stick with it long enough. If FIC is committed to this market that should be doable in some years
01:16.34CoreDump|afkMacNorth: deb http://www.openembedded.org/dl/ packages/ works fine here
01:17.08jaebird238 yrs if they sell 1000 per month :)
01:17.18stefan_schmidtheh
01:18.38MacNorthErr http://sicherheitsschwankung.de unstable/main Packages is 404 for me
01:20.23stefan_schmidthttp://sicherheitsschwankung.de/~jluebbe/debian/unstable/
01:21.17MacNorthnope: E: Malformed line 19 in source list /etc/apt/sources.list (dist)
01:21.29MacNorthit wants main|contrib|non-free
01:22.51stefan_schmidtMacNorth: moment let me test.
01:22.52jaebirdstefan_schmidt: can you point me to the gpl violation issue that motorola had/has?
01:23.14CoreDump|afkdeb http://sicherheitsschwankung.de/~jluebbe/debian/ unstable/ should work just fine
01:23.28MacNorth/should// is the operative word, apparently :)
01:24.40CoreDump|afkdeb http://sicherheitsschwankung.de/~jluebbe/debian/ unstable/
01:24.47CoreDump|afkworks for me, just tested on SID
01:24.50stefan_schmidtMacNorth: It works. Just verified. I use this repo for a long time now.
01:25.14CoreDump|afknote the [space] before unstable
01:25.17stefan_schmidtjaebird: It's a bit complicated
01:25.47MacNorthspace noted and used, trailing unstable slash noted and used, no dice in etch app
01:26.09stefan_schmidtjaebird: They don't sell the A780 in germany anymore. Means Harald is not able to make pressure on them.
01:26.41jaebirdnice...
01:26.53stefan_schmidtjaebird: The code shoudl be mostly there, but normally they need to release the code for every firmware version. And it should build.
01:27.24jaebirdagreed...and the spirit of the law would say there should be someway to get that onto the phone!
01:27.28stefan_schmidtjaebird: ATM you still need fixes for the released code.
01:27.40stefan_schmidtjaebird: right
01:27.48CoreDump|afkMacNorth: http://rafb.net/p/lPSsLN23.html <- my working sources.list
01:27.51jaebirdthx
01:28.26stefan_schmidtjaebird: Thy getting better with opensource.motorola.com, release for every firmware, directly when phones came out...
01:28.52MacNorthi have lines 3 & 5 verbatim. i dunno
01:30.08stefan_schmidtjaebird: If they came to us we could work it out. But I doubt they will ever.
01:30.09CoreDump|afkMacNorth: I'm out of ideas =)
01:30.52MacNorthme too, i'll just wait a few days. weird flukes like this usually sort themselves out
01:30.53jaebirdyeah...i'll mention openezx in my email too
01:31.52MacNorthhas anyone had any luck with http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/How_to_run_OpenMoko_Apps_on_PC ?
01:32.13MacNorthCompiling sample apps -- there isn't an autogen.sh in OM-2007/examples . there isn't even a configure.ac/configure.in for autoreconf to use
01:35.51jaebirdstefan_schmidt: I'll send you an email of my response...you can comment if you like and reply back.
01:36.39stefan_schmidtjaebird: ok, thanks. But first I go to bed now. It's already 2:30 am. cu
01:36.41stefan_schmidtnight all
01:36.48[g2]stefan_schmidt night
01:36.49jaebirdsure
01:36.58jaebirdno hurry for me!
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02:52.31CIA-7openmoko: 03werner * r1067 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/ (dynenv-harden.patch series):
02:52.31CIA-7openmoko: common/cmd_nand.c: globalized arg_off_size
02:52.32CIA-7openmoko: include/util.h: new header to convenience functions, such as arg_off_size
02:52.32CIA-7openmoko: common/cmd_dynenv.c (do_dynenv): use arg_off_size to sanity-check offset and to
02:52.32CIA-7openmoko:  allow use of partition name
02:52.32CIA-7openmoko: common/cmd_dynenv.c (do_dynenv): indicate in no uncertain terms when an update
02:52.36CIA-7openmoko:  would not work due to Flash bits already cleared
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02:59.54claudio_Hello. Where's the source of libgsmd?
03:00.30CIA-7openmoko: 03werner * r1068 10/developers/werner/TODO: Feb 20 updates
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03:25.01aevinclaudio_: have you checked the tree in svn ?
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03:27.35aevinclaudio_: it may of course be work-in-progress, i don't know. but here: http://svnweb.openmoko.org/trunk/src/target/gsm/src/libgsmd/
03:39.04alorilseen this yet? (didn't link in logs): http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2007/02/20#20070220-hardware_problems
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03:53.10aevinaww. hw bugs aint funny. luckily it's still early.
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04:03.23claudio_thanks aevin
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04:11.39claudio_I don't get it, where is your gsm protocol stack? I was wondering if I could contribute to it, but I cannot find it. Or is it in the kernel?
04:12.05dottedmagclaudio_: IIRC it is in h/w
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04:16.53claudio_dottedmag: I see. Nothing to do for me then.
04:17.35alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Hardware#GSM.2FGPRS
04:20.14claudio_tx aloril.
04:22.20abstrakraftso...any devs in here?
04:28.27LunvedFor those having trouble building openmoko-dates: The repository has been re-organised and you need to edit the openmoko-dates_svn.bb file
04:28.47cjbDoes X work on the device in the latest images yet?
04:29.12LunvedThe SRC_URI needs the '/private' removed and the module changed to openmoko.
04:29.52LunvedAnd the S setting need omoko changed to openmoko
04:30.31claudio_so this device works by speaking 07.* to /dev/ttySAC0 ?
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04:33.11alorilabstrakraft: you had some questions?
04:33.45aloril(not openmoko team developer)
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04:44.12abstrakraftjust came across the project today, building the host environment, wondering what needs doing
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06:06.23tigerthmm
06:06.31tigertmorning
06:06.35tigertmorn
06:06.43tigertoopss :)
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06:38.34CMHyvää huomenta ;)
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06:40.45alorilmorning
06:40.47sureshkumarHi Good morning to all
06:41.29sureshkumarcan anyone of you help me in knowing the advantage or difference between dbus and dbus-glib?
06:42.53sureshkumarAnyone there?
06:43.01CMsureshkumar: I'd say dbus-glib is the glib bindings to dbus
06:43.39CMThere's dbus bindings in many lanuguages
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08:29.27CIA-7openmoko: 03rwhitby * r10 10mokomakefile/trunk/patches/openmoko-HEAD/ (openmoko-dates.patch series): Added openmoko-dates svn repo patch
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08:35.14hrwmorning
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08:39.59hrwGTA01Bv4 will be created..
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08:40.14buzis that good or bad
08:42.38koengood, since that's supposed to the the p1 phone :)
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08:51.11buzwell in that case "has been created" would be better even ;)
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09:36.57Stephmwmornin
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09:56.54LuitvDhello
09:57.12Fletchcounter
09:57.12alorilP0: a week, a day 02:02:47 (2.085 - 8.085 days);  P1: 24.085 - 39.085;  P2: 192.085 - 222.085 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (375)
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09:58.19hrwaloril: according to recent LaF0rge blog post there can be next delay
10:00.02rob_w|mishrw, link ?
10:00.34Fletchhttp://planet.openmoko.org/
10:01.27koenor http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2007/02/20/#20070220-hardware_problems
10:03.46LuitvDhmm, that's not very nice...
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10:04.08Elixir-Maybe its just me but do you think most OpenMoko users will want to config their device a bit?
10:04.37LuitvDElixir-: that's an obvious question...
10:04.50Elixir-I'm curious because all the preliminary docs I've read seem to be fairly ... monolithic in their design. Not a lot of talk about modular design
10:05.45LuitvDElixir-: the default theme is monolithic, tho' it's still GTK/matchbox, which is compleetly modular/configurable
10:05.55rob_w|misdamn it .. valgrind doesnt support mips
10:06.10Elixir-hrm ok just curious
10:06.15Elixir-thx
10:06.21rob_w|misopps wrong channel , soory
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10:06.56Elixir-I can't imagine myself using an openmoko phone with anything default =P
10:08.12LuitvDElixir-: think of it as any other linux distro... it's distributed with a default theme that fits the projects' theme
10:08.35Elixir-I hope they make it easier than most distros to strip down =P
10:09.50buzphase1 looks pretty bare to me
10:09.59CMI'm guessing that the official base install is pretty bare, yes
10:10.33CMThere's only 64mb after all. :)
10:11.13buzthats actually more than many smartphones have
10:12.05hrwbuz: windowsmobile 5.0 req 128mb flash
10:12.21buzi wouldnt call winmob smart
10:12.28Elixir-Hehehe
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10:13.24Elixir-How slow is uSD?
10:13.38Elixir-microSD flash I mean
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10:19.40CMElixir-: The kingston ones I've seen has 8.8/6.5 MB/s r/w
10:19.51floriangood morning
10:19.53CMHeh, a bit too many / there to be clear..
10:20.25CMThere's 10/8 mb/s too. Don't know what the card reader on the neo has
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10:26.38mjrreporting to you live from the openmoko seminar at Tampere, Finland; starting in 4 minutes
10:27.19koenmjr: preparing to bribe sean?
10:27.32LuitvDlol
10:27.42koenLuitvD: 8kB/s is about average gprs speed
10:28.05LuitvDkoen: thanks ... let's see how much traffic / day is possible on 1GB
10:28.17koena lot :)
10:28.21LuitvDlol
10:28.45jannumjr: and I'm stuck in Helsinki. damn
10:28.50hrwapt: 1024*1024/8
10:29.00apt131072
10:29.00LuitvD:P
10:29.17hrwapt: 131072/3600
10:29.19apt36.408888888889
10:29.24mjrkoen, wonder how much his phone would cost, being just a development model and _used_ and all...
10:29.42hrwso 1GB is 36.4h of 8KB/s transfer?
10:29.48CMThat's only 1h 12 min per day..
10:30.26LuitvD1048576 kb/day
10:30.29LuitvDeh
10:30.30LuitvDmonth
10:30.51LuitvDabout 35000kb/day
10:31.25LuitvDkB, sorry :P
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10:32.32LuitvD35MB/day...
10:33.46LuitvDsomebody should write a widget/applet to montior the GPRS-traffic and show the traffic today + traffic this month
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10:34.43hrwLuitvD: and cost of it
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10:35.19LuitvDyeah... well.... not if you've got a 1GB/month traffic limit for a fixed cost...
10:35.34LuitvDhrw: and block traffic when it exceeds a certain limit
10:35.50LuitvDand warn at 80% of that limit
10:35.52CMI'd say warn when you don't have much left
10:36.00CMHeh, you're quicker
10:36.03LuitvDlol :)
10:36.14LuitvDwarn + stop is my fav...
10:36.18LuitvDnot just warn...
10:36.59LuitvDhmm, should be some ingenious way to calculate the quotum...
10:37.28LuitvDbecause you can't always know on what day the quotum will be cleared...
10:37.39CMLuitvD: How does those monthly 1gb deals work? Is it 30 days, or the actual month?
10:37.55LuitvDCM: I have no idea :P ask koen
10:38.15LuitvDhe's the one who told me of that plan :)
10:38.21CMI guess they count from one bill to the next
10:38.30koenbill-to-bill
10:39.16LuitvDkoen: okay :) so the exact quotum days are shown on the bills...
10:39.38LuitvDkoen: did you ever reach that limit?
10:40.06koenI think I got as high as 120MB
10:40.19LuitvDXD
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10:43.25LuitvDwhoops :)
10:44.07CMI wonder what gprs costs here.. Have to check
10:44.40LuitvDCM: where is here?
10:44.46CMSweden
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10:45.06CMMy company is paying my bills, so I don't know what it costs
10:45.13LuitvDlol
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10:49.05CMSeems to be between 0.70 and 1.50 EUR/MB.. Less the more you use
10:49.15CMGlad I never see that bill..
10:49.58LuitvD:P
10:50.05buz~4EUR/mb in ch
10:50.17buzor 2GB for 30EUR each month
10:50.27LuitvD0,7eur/MB isn't that expensive...
10:51.03buzid love a 100mb for 10EUR deal
10:51.07LuitvD2GB of GPRS traffic each month?
10:51.14buzLuitvD: yes
10:51.14LuitvDlol
10:51.21buz(which they then call "unlimited")
10:51.24LuitvDthat won't really happen...
10:51.27buzactually it's gprs or UMTS
10:51.39buzi.e. mobile communication
10:51.44LuitvDyeah...
10:51.51buzi think you can also use it for hotspots, not sure though
10:52.05mjr*whistle* flat rate 10 eur/month (and yeah, umts too, but only up to 128k with that deal)
10:52.24LuitvD:|
10:52.25koenI'd love to have umts included in that deal
10:52.32koenexcept I have no umts phone
10:53.04mjryeah I don't either, and apparently my next one isn't umts either ;)
10:53.04koenand most umts phones seem to be designed by people that think fridge sized phones are 'c00l' and '1337'
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10:53.41LuitvDwhat can the iPhone do ? 3G?
10:53.52LuitvDor is that one 2,5G too?
10:54.18koenthe iphone can't do shit without paying $$$$$$ to unlock features
10:54.30LuitvDyeah, i know
10:54.57LuitvDand you're stuck to a way too expensive plan anyways... with that phone
10:54.59mjriphone is actually gsm/gprs too
10:55.10mjrdunno if that does edge (sometimes called 2.75g)
10:55.42LuitvDmjr: edge is mostly called 2,75... not just sometimes :P
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12:32.36Koffahello there... is there an emulator?
12:32.45Koffa(sorry, couldn't resist)
12:36.02hrw~seen emulator
12:36.25apthrw: i haven't seen 'emulator'
12:36.25buzanyone ever seen one of the e21 linux phones in the wild?
12:36.26buzthat http://www.digital-living-magazin.de/index.php?pid=17&art=2050&dispimg=1&img=6 lucks tasty
12:37.13KoffaStephmw :(
12:37.49buzhttp://www.e28.com/e28mobile/mobile_e2881_spec.htm yum, only qvga but otherwise perfect
12:43.04LuitvDlol, that thing has one fourth of the nuber of pixels on the same size of screen
12:44.40buzqvga is pretty much standard for smartphones
12:44.52buzso far, i think universal is the only widely shipped vga phon
12:45.01buzand universal barely qualifies as phone anyhow
12:45.15buz12.5mm thickness?
12:45.17buzyum
12:45.20SpeedEvilI'm not really sure if VGA is much better than QVGA on 2.8" anyway.
12:45.42buzSpeedEvil: it might be if it allows to run some desktop apps mostly unmodified
12:45.45buzother than, i doubt it
12:45.51LuitvDSpeedEvil: sure it is
12:46.04SpeedEvilYEMV.
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12:46.07LuitvDscalability :)
12:46.17SpeedEvil(eyes)
12:46.25LuitvD[eating]SpeedEvil: glasses ;)
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12:46.30LuitvD[eating]reading glasses
12:47.01SpeedEvilWell - yes - but if it's combined with holding the phone at 20cm...
12:47.24buzqvga screen will still have what 150dpi?
12:47.45buzthats still 50% than most desktop screens have
12:47.46SpeedEvilyeah.
12:48.18mjrKoffa, starting off with a bang, I see
12:48.30Koffahad to make an entrance...
12:48.46mjr(Koffa is sitting here with me at the Tampere seminar)
12:51.32koencan someone port the qvga screens into vga?
12:51.39koens/can/can't/
12:52.44buzthats one thing i've been wondering about
12:52.54buzare there any plans for a qvga openmoko version
12:53.07hrwbuz: there are
12:53.09koenbuz: http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=197
12:53.31buzis that only a matter of theming?
12:53.34buzor rewriting half the widgets
12:53.56koen85% is theming
12:54.12buzmaybe i'll try to get my hands on that qwerty thingy ;)
12:54.15koenthe other 15% is small layout changes
12:54.32XorAkoen: we could always vnc on x to show another x with scale 50% :-D
12:54.48koen~fishslap XorA
12:54.56aptACTION slaps XorA up side the head with a wet fish.
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12:55.31buzvirtual framebuffer than just scale down?
12:55.32hrwXorA: qvfb under x11 with opie inside. then opie-rdesktop back to x11
12:55.35LuitvD[eating]what are the minimal ram requirements for moko?
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12:56.25LuitvD[eating]some qvga devices might need more ram to run moko, or mount swap on the flash...
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12:57.21hrwswap on flash? I prefer swap on tmpfs
12:57.37LuitvDthat's what i mean...
12:57.51LuitvDjust swap.. don't care where...
12:58.06LuitvDbut what amount of ram is needed to run without any ?
12:58.14XorAswap on nfs->GPRS
12:58.25hrwXorA: that would be best
12:58.25woglindexora *g*
12:58.33Koffaswap on gmailfs?
12:58.35koenXorA: nbd over gprs :)
12:58.35LuitvDXorA: lol
12:58.37XorAwe can rent swap servers to people
12:58.45LuitvDthat's bad
12:58.48Koffa~3G should be enough :)
12:58.57mjrXorA, come now, that's silly. swap on NBD over GPRS!
12:59.08hrwmjr: I had to write it ;)
12:59.37mjroh damn, koen got there first
13:00.20hrwnbd: can I ask openwrt question?
13:00.25nbdsure
13:00.44hrwnbd: why no jffs2 images for WR newer then rc5?
13:01.22nbdit's been deprecated in favour of squashfs+jffs2+mini_fo
13:02.00nbdsame level of flexibility, better compression, better recovery if you screw up the filesystem
13:02.03hrwnbd: I run rc5/jffs2 on wrt54gs and wanted to do it with newer ones
13:02.39nbdi think this discussion should go in #openwrt instead
13:02.51buzswap on iscsi over gprs
13:02.58hrwsure - just wanted to know reason. thx for answer
13:03.27hrwswap on nfs on floppies over gprs
13:03.37XorAhrw: sneaker net :-)
13:04.41SpeedEvilOn 'large 3G phones' - http://www.sonyericsson.com/spg.jsp?cc=us&lc=en&ver=4000&template=pip1&zone=pp&pid=10653#
13:04.46LuitvDhrw: nfs on iram ... over gprs.
13:06.21StephmwI personally feel that there's no need for such instant retrieval of swap contents...
13:06.29Stephmwswap over SMS is the answer
13:06.48LuitvD:D
13:07.12LuitvDI'd like to see the protocol specification for that :P
13:08.08mjrwell, I think people have been running IP over SMS already...
13:08.21Stephmwthere's an implementation around, aye
13:08.25mjrapparently there were these "unlimited SMS" deals here a few years back
13:08.52mjrnowadays they have limits :]
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13:10.56SpeedEvil'or any activity which impacts negatively on our network' - clauses tend to be common though.
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13:21.01CIA-7openmoko: 03thomas * r1069 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-contacts/ (ChangeLog src/contacts-contact-pane.c):
13:21.02CIA-7openmoko: * src/contacts-contact-pane.c:
13:21.02CIA-7openmoko: - Add support for handling multi-valued attributes.
13:21.02CIA-7openmoko: - Prevent removal of a field if it is the last of its type in the editor.
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13:36.25SpeedEvilOdd. Tegic has a bogus UK patent number on their website.
13:36.44SpeedEvilAnd the UK patent search engines can't seem to find any patents by them...
13:36.47Stephmwnot yet granted?
13:36.56Stephmwor just a typo?
13:37.32so_solid_mootry looking on esp@cenet
13:37.39so_solid_mooall patents applied for should be listed.
13:39.54SpeedEvilAh.
13:39.56SpeedEvilGB2238414A
13:40.05SpeedEvilThere was a B on the end.
13:40.27SpeedEvilAnd for some reason - I can't see the full text on esp...
13:40.35SpeedEvil(WRT T9)
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13:42.02so_solid_mooSpeedEvil: it's valid from 1989
13:42.39SpeedEvilYeah.
13:42.47SpeedEvilI was looking for the actual text.
13:42.57SpeedEvilDoesn't really matter.
13:43.07Stephmwweird... can't find my application on esp@cenet
13:43.15StephmwI think they just use shitty search technology
13:43.22SpeedEvil(tm)
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13:43.56StephmwSpeedEvil: esp@cenet does the 1-embedded-pdf-per-page malarkey
13:44.03StephmwSpeedEvil: but they do have the patents online
13:44.19SpeedEvilIt's not working for me, downloading files which then want passwords.
13:44.21so_solid_mooSpeedEvil: it is on there
13:44.22SpeedEvilOh well.
13:44.29so_solid_mooSpeedEvil: it's for chinese text I think?
13:45.38StephmwSpeedEvil: that's probably the problem - I've only ever had it work embedded
13:45.45StephmwSpeedEvil: never have been able to save the pdfs
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13:47.18so_solid_mooevince opens the espacenet pdfs fine IME
13:47.37SpeedEvilI should probably try something else.
13:47.38koentry epdfview, much faster as evince
13:47.54koenhttp://trac.emma-soft.com/epdfview/
13:48.19koenthat reminds me...
13:48.42XorAkoen: yeah, make poppler even faster :-)
13:48.51rob_w|misqeustion : having prepaid cards , you do send a provider specific call like *100# and dial this ,, quickly you see a mesage on the phone display which tells you the money left. .. how is this implemented in AT .. cant find a reference ?
13:49.06SpeedEvilI need to update my GTK - from 1.2 :)
13:49.37SpeedEvilrob_w|mis: It's implementation dependant AIUI.
13:49.42SpeedEvilIt may not be possible.
13:49.54SpeedEvilIt's sometimes done in the phone software.
13:50.08rob_w|misAIUI
13:50.09SpeedEvilSometimes by a custom SMS
13:50.09rob_w|mishmm
13:50.16SpeedEvilAs I understand it.
13:50.49rob_w|misoh
13:51.01rob_w|misthough aiui is yet antother at crap
13:53.28SpeedEvilI'm basing this on the fact that it doesn't work often if you put another providers SIM in, so there must be several ways.
13:55.10rob_w|misi just test it on a crappy prepaid card and on my sonic ericsson it worked ..
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13:56.51hrwrob_w|mis: its simple: ATDT*100#
13:57.10hrwrest is on operator side
13:59.03rob_w|misthats the easy part hrw , , but then ?
13:59.47rob_w|misthen the operator send something magically back which displays a normal phone on its display .. i want to know how this works
14:00.53XorArob_w|mis: its an SMS with target phone and instant flag set
14:01.22buzi dont think prepaid balance checking is done in software
14:01.35buzi use a regular phone with mine and *121*# works just fine
14:03.58*** join/#openmoko DukeOfURL (n=chatzill@vc7-1-39.dsl.netrack.net)
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14:09.28Hadakacounter?
14:09.28alorilsource: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; a week 21:50:31 (1.910 - 7.910 days) for devices for selected developers (2007-02-28);  a month, a week (23.910 - 38.910 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-31);  7 months, a week (191.910 - 221.910 days) for mass market (2007-09-30): see topic for more info (376)
14:09.38buzlooks very much like a flash sms or whatever they are called to me
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14:13.56DukeOfURLDid I read somewhere that a micro-sized HDD has been developed for cell phones?
14:14.31hrwDukeOfURL: yep. but you need strong glasses to see them..
14:14.38DukeOfURLHeh
14:14.55hrw1" hdd are available from some time
14:15.10hrwits just a matter of connecting and fitting them
14:15.21DukeOfURLLooking at the openmoko wish list, we're gonna need a lot of storage for all the apps we'll have :=)
14:15.39hrwbut I prefer few GB of flash rather then moving parts
14:15.39hrwand now I have to go
14:15.39hrwcu
14:15.44DukeOfURLok
14:15.45SpeedEvil2G of flash isn't unreasonable.
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14:16.32rob_w|misXorA, oh cool .. you know details
14:16.34DukeOfURLI read where it really isn't 2GB.  The vendors were claiming 2GB pre-compression,
14:16.44SpeedEvilErr - no.
14:16.54SpeedEvilThere are actual 2G micro-SD out there.
14:17.09XorArob_w|mis: cant remeber exactly how its done, but there used to be a windoze app that could send that type of message to any phone
14:17.20DukeOfURLKinda like the "500GB" Samsung drives I brought last week.  Linux is reporting 465GB.
14:17.30SpeedEvilErr - no.
14:17.40rob_w|misgreat , so i need to figure out to delete that instant flag so it stores it
14:17.41SpeedEvilThat's different definitions of the megabyte.
14:17.52DukeOfURL1024 v 1000?
14:18.03SpeedEvil1024*1024*1024 vs 1000000000
14:18.25SpeedEvilStorage makers have been doing that for a long time.
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14:23.21rob_w|misXorA, is it a cell broadcast ?
14:25.23XorArob_w|mis: I dont think so as vodofone in the OK use the cell messages to tell you what dialing code you are in
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14:27.43SpeedEvilOK?
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14:39.48parag0na gigabyte IS 1000000000 bytes
14:40.05parag0n1024^3 is a gibibyte
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14:49.15noiddmeh
14:49.26noiddits the difference between a metric and imperial gigabyte ;-)
14:51.31aevin"imperial"? more "binary".
14:51.33aevin:)
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14:56.02CIA-7openmoko: 03laforge * r1070 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-20061030-qt2410.patch:
14:56.02CIA-7openmoko: * fix compilation due to missing last line in qt2410.c
14:56.02CIA-7openmoko: * update config to become closer to what neo1973.h does these days
14:56.39CIA-7openmoko: 03laforge * r1071 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/ (series uboot-qt2410-resume.patch):
14:56.39CIA-7openmoko: * add QT2410 port of fluffs' resume patch
14:56.39CIA-7openmoko: This eventually needs to move into cpu/arm920/start.S
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15:03.13PBeckhi
15:03.47alorilPBeck: hi
15:06.40buzwill there be Neos at cebit?
15:07.11*** join/#openmoko florian (n=fuchs@217.146.132.69)
15:07.15*** join/#openmoko bkuhn (n=bkuhn@fsf/member/bkuhn/bkuhn)
15:09.29CIA-7openmoko: 03thomas * r1072 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/libmokoui/moko-alignment.c: Actually commit the changes for r1053
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15:13.50LuitvDbuz: when will CeBit 2007 be?
15:14.17LuitvDwait, found it :P hannover, 15 march
15:15.17LuitvDs/(\d+)\s(\w+)/\\0 \\1/
15:15.18LuitvDlol
15:15.25LuitvDmarch, 15th
15:15.32LuitvDtill 21st
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15:19.52PBeckhey aloril :D
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15:27.41alorilabout week - 2 weeks before we hear p0 'reviews'
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15:29.23aevincounter
15:29.23alorilP0: a week 20:30:37 (1.855 - 7.855 days);  P1: 23.855 - 38.855;  P2: 191.855 - 221.855 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (377)
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15:34.27LetoToare the e28.com phones fic phones?
15:35.29*** join/#openmoko nibbler_de (n=nibbler@some.host.name)
15:35.32LuitvDlol e28.com is an unconfigured adress...
15:35.38LuitvDwww.e28.com is
15:35.53LuitvDstupid webmasters/servermanagers
15:36.06*** join/#openmoko schurig (n=schurig@pD95F944E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
15:36.10LuitvDhow could people having control over those things be so stupid :S
15:36.58LetoTohttp://www.digital-living-magazin.de/index.php?pid=17&art=2050&cid=DLnewsletter
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15:37.17LetoToi am still confused over the big photo there. It has subscript "neo1973" but it doesnt look like the neo at all
15:37.25LuitvDlol
15:37.28buzits not the neo
15:37.36buzand e28 is not fic
15:37.42buzwish they were
15:37.47LuitvDlook belop the line that says "neo1973" ;)
15:38.08CIA-7openmoko: 03thomas * r1073 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/libmokoui/ (moko-search-bar.c moko-tree-view.c): * Fix some compiler warnings
15:38.11LuitvDhttp://www.digital-living-magazin.de/index.php?pid=17&art=2050&dispimg=1&img=5
15:38.15buzi'd so get the e2881 if it was an openmoko device
15:38.18LuitvDthat is a nice device though...
15:38.24LuitvDwonder what it costs...
15:39.05LuitvD(too bad it's only 1,8" QCIF+
15:39.09buzi'm trying to figure that out)
15:39.17LuitvDlol
15:39.20LuitvD2881...
15:39.28LuitvDthat one is bulky...
15:39.28ElrondQCIF+ ?
15:39.33buzbulky?
15:39.35buzit's very smal
15:39.38LuitvDis it?
15:39.42LuitvDlooks big on the pics
15:39.43buz110x50x13mm
15:39.49LuitvDoeh :|
15:39.51buzmuch smaller than neo
15:39.52LuitvDniiice
15:39.54buzvery thing especially
15:40.02buzthin
15:40.02LuitvD13 mm thick :|
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15:40.09LuitvDthat's not much
15:40.14buzthats half the thickness of my p900
15:40.35buzi sent a mail to the guy who said he sold e2800 asking if he could get the e2881
15:40.52buzif that doesnt work out, i will ask some guys in hongkong to find it
15:41.01LuitvD" Leider gibt es bisher keine Information dazu, ob, wann und wenn überhaupt zu welchem Preis diese beiden Geräte in Europa auf den Markt kommen. "
15:41.18buzwho cares
15:41.26LuitvDso not sure if, when, how pricey it;'ll hit the european market
15:41.28buzjust because nobody sells them here doesnt mean we cant have them
15:41.35LuitvD:)
15:41.39LuitvDbuz: i know
15:41.45LuitvDit's a nice device...
15:42.06buzyes
15:42.07LuitvDwonder what the quality of the default linux distro is...
15:42.10buzi wonder what about sources
15:42.20buzmaybe harald needs to go bug them ;)
15:42.23LuitvD:)
15:42.53LuitvDand wifi, quadband, 2mpixel cam
15:44.32buzits perfect
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15:45.07*** join/#openmoko bipolar (n=bflong@146.145.26.91)
15:46.00buzhowever, that omap 730 is single chip
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15:46.11buznot sure if theres anything like open interface for that one
15:49.47LuitvDand it has a Sirf star 3
15:49.48LuitvD:)
15:50.01LuitvDand full size SD? :S
15:50.20buzmicro i think
15:50.41LuitvD"microSD/SD/MMC"
15:50.44LuitvDso full size ...
15:50.58LuitvDmaybe microSD inside, and en external SD/MMC slot...
15:50.59buzoh nice
15:51.00LuitvDwould be nice :D
15:51.09buzprobably no sdhc
15:51.11LuitvDboth micro and full size would be awesome
15:51.21buzyeah
15:51.30LuitvDerr... isn't SDHC depending on software, not hardware?
15:51.35buznot sure
15:51.39buzit needs FAT32 sure
15:51.44buzbut i think it also uses another protocol
15:51.47LuitvD:P
15:52.21buzreads whole sectors instead of just bytes
15:52.21LuitvDyes... standard SPI/I2C variant
15:52.21buznot sure what the omap really does itself
15:52.21LuitvDthe protocol can't have changed much... it's still SPI...
15:52.21buzand what is just driver related
15:52.35buzhttp://focus.ti.com/general/docs/wtbu/wtbuproductcontent.tsp?templateId=6123&navigationId=12003&contentId=4676
15:52.37LuitvDI think a new driver can fix a lot
15:53.26buzARM926EJ-S V5 architecture up to 200 MHz (maximum frequency)
15:53.29LuitvDarm926... two ticks higher then arm920?
15:53.46LuitvDthought there was arm924 too...
15:54.01buzUSB On-the-Go
15:54.40LuitvDsecondary lcd...
15:54.46*** join/#openmoko meandtheshell (n=markus@85-124-39-201.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at)
15:54.52koenLuitvD: arm926 is armv5, arm920 is armv4
15:55.00LuitvDah, okay...
15:55.00buzso its faster probably
15:55.14LuitvDmaybe... maybe not... maybe just more efficient
15:55.20buz130nm
15:55.27buzi think the s3c2410 is 180nm
15:55.41LuitvDah, so at least more efficient..
15:55.45buzDMA with 4 physical and 17 logical channels and a dedicated 2D graphics engine
15:55.52buzw000t
15:55.53*** join/#openmoko gtodd_ (n=webart@198.62.158.205)
15:55.56LuitvDyeeehaa
15:56.09LuitvDso it has a 2D graphics accelerater
15:56.12buzthis might just do those transparencies
15:56.16LuitvDlol
15:56.40LuitvDpossibility of an EDGE co-processor...
15:56.42buzi wonder what the e2881 costs
15:56.47buzi just might pay 500USD for it
15:57.14LuitvDlol, I won't
15:57.16LetoTonot if it is not opensource friendly
15:57.22LetoToI've had it with phone hacking
15:57.25LetoTono more!
15:57.27gtodd_there surprisingly large use of mobile in poor countries
15:57.32LuitvDif it's 400 I might buy it, if openmoko runs on it
15:57.42gtodd_hopefully price points of openmoko phones are competitive
15:57.55buz350usd is ok for neo
15:58.04buzbut only because it got vga screen
15:58.12LuitvD:)
15:58.25buzhow big is the screen on the e thingy
15:58.25LuitvDi meant htat e28 device
15:58.43LuitvD2,8", just like the FIC, though with QVGA
15:58.45LuitvDinstead of VGA
15:58.46buzoh
15:58.48gtodd_how much $ to start your own cel company :-)
15:58.53LuitvD:D
15:58.59buzcarrier or phone maker?
15:59.06LuitvDphone maker ofcourse
15:59.09LuitvD:P
15:59.11buzmhh
15:59.13gtodd_carrier too
15:59.14gtodd_:)
15:59.25buzwell, 10mio usd might be start
15:59.29gtodd_carrier for say just one urban region
15:59.31LuitvDgtodd_: worldwide?
15:59.38LuitvDoh
15:59.38LuitvDlol
15:59.42gtodd_with a few antennae towers etc
15:59.49buzyou need spectrum
15:59.49DukeOfURLIn the early 90s, everyone in Hong Kong had a cell phone.  The reason was the 10 year wait for a land line.
15:59.51buzwhich you wont get
15:59.56CIA-7openmoko: 03thomas * r1074 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-contacts/ (ChangeLog src/contacts-main.c): * src/contacts-main.c: (main): Fix some compiler warnings
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16:00.13gtodd_voip peering/trunking to like minded little cel companies around the world
16:00.24buzwhich dont get spectrum either
16:00.33gtodd_:)
16:00.47buzthat market is basically carved up
16:00.52buznow wimax otoh
16:01.04gtodd_ok so to have a really open infrastructure (along with the phone platform) wifi is needed :-D
16:01.12gtodd_wimax I mean
16:01.15gtodd_except here
16:01.17gtodd_(Canada)
16:01.29koenwifi?
16:01.29alorilWhen version 1 was designed there was no sufficiently low-power WiFi chip available which has an open driver. You can attach (battery) powered USB hub to Neo1973 and then use supported WiFi USB stick. For more information see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F
16:01.35gtodd_the big telcos/cel providers go to auctions and by wimax spectrum!
16:01.36LuitvDlol
16:01.41buzROTFL
16:01.47gtodd_they buy it
16:01.50gtodd_and sit on it
16:01.55buzwifi needs a LOT of cells
16:02.06buzonly chance i see with wifi is what FON is doing
16:02.23gtodd_or roll out wimax based services that cost more than their current offerings
16:02.23buzbut i dont trust FON one bit
16:02.30LuitvDlol
16:02.33buzgtodd_: sounds about right
16:02.42LuitvDyou could build 50dBi wifi antennae
16:02.55LuitvDthat'd have a nice reach...
16:02.59gtodd_it should be illegal for them to spectrum squat
16:03.19*** join/#openmoko pirulo (n=andres_p@65.19.28.123)
16:03.37buzyeah spectrum should come with an usage requirement
16:03.41gtodd_but as someone said when asked why they get away with it .... "cause they have money"
16:04.00gtodd_buz why no trust in FON?
16:04.16gtodd_think they will become rapacious and costly?
16:04.24buzbecause i wont have some weird hacked up firmware in router
16:04.28gtodd_yeah
16:04.54gtodd_they are a lot like skype
16:04.56raynetfirst thing that my friends who use FON is that they remove the backdoor
16:05.03gtodd_and guess who invests in them :)
16:05.19raynetif you dont do it then FON can reprogram and log in as root whenever they want
16:05.30gtodd_yeah damnit!
16:05.36alorilhere is one idea about spectrum: you pay yearly fee about it, at the end of near cheapest provider one gets significant amount of fees back (if you provide for free, then you get all of it back)
16:05.40buzsee thats why i wont use it
16:05.53buzaloril: that's what a sane person would manage it like
16:05.59buzunfortuantely, it's managed by bureaucrats
16:06.08*** join/#openmoko gtodd_ (n=webart@198.62.158.205)
16:06.16gtodd_oops :)
16:06.19buzcould even give people who provide it for free back more than they paid
16:06.22buztaking from the rip offs
16:06.33*** join/#openmoko gabaug (n=gburt@207-229-164-50.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.cable.rcn.com)
16:06.46gtodd_is there a python version that'll run on openmoko?
16:06.56alorilassuming they actually provided it and not few/single tower(s) ;-)
16:07.04buzwould 64mb be ram enough for openmoko
16:07.33gtodd_which I could run openmoko as a vmware image or something
16:07.35gtodd_:)
16:08.20alorilbuz: my guess is yes
16:08.28buzhttp://www.e28.com/e28mobile/mobile_e2881_image.htm looking at the side it might use sd
16:08.35buzthe slot could just about fit sd i think
16:08.42robtaylorbtw, both wifi and wimax have nosupport at the radio level for seamlessly moving between cells
16:09.02robtaylorthe only soultion is to have two radios
16:09.16robtaylori suspect that would suck for power consumption
16:09.47LuitvDbuz: it does, SD and MMC
16:09.55LuitvD(and prob. SDIO too)
16:10.00raynetWIFI handover has nasty 200ms or more lag
16:10.15buzdont think i would need SDIO in that hardware
16:10.24buzi mean what could you possibly add
16:10.29buzok maybe spectecs vga thingy
16:10.58buzand frankly, i like the design much more than neos
16:11.10LuitvDlol
16:11.15LuitvDme too
16:11.18buzmaybe its just me, but neo looks like playmobil toy
16:11.31LuitvDtho' if it doesn't run moko, I'm not sure what to buy...
16:11.44buzyou could always port moko to it ;)
16:11.56buzheck i might post a bounty for that ;)
16:12.01rd_<PROTECTED>
16:12.10LuitvDif it's as expensive or even cheaper then the neo, I'll defenately import it
16:12.11buzdont know
16:12.13buztrying to figure out
16:12.20buzi doubt it will be cheaper
16:12.40rd_LuitvD, the spec of that phone is much better then neo
16:12.46LuitvDyeah
16:12.51buzrd_: aside the fact that is has only qvga
16:12.54LuitvDapart from the screen, that is
16:12.58buzthis is essentially a linux running tytn
16:13.01LuitvDdamn, beaten :P
16:13.06buzbetter even, tytn has no gps
16:13.17LuitvDtytn? doesn  the tytn have HVGA?
16:13.20LuitvD:S
16:13.24buztytn is qvga
16:13.29LuitvDdamn...
16:13.36buzthis is probably 600USD or so
16:13.40LuitvD:P
16:14.13mjrho hum
16:14.22buzi wonder how many youd have to buy to get a steep discount
16:14.26*** join/#openmoko rob_w|mis (n=rob_w@p549B8C29.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
16:15.28buzthis is what v2 should look like ;)
16:15.51LuitvDyeah, and what the v2 should be capable of...
16:15.52raynetbuz: with the exception of sliding keyboard
16:16.06buzmhh im indifferent to sliding or treo like
16:16.09buzsliding is easier to type
16:16.14buzbut you cant use it onehanded
16:16.28LuitvDsliding like the HTC wizard?
16:16.52LuitvDyeah, I like this blackberry-style keyboard
16:17.39buzbesides, this one doesnt even look too geeky
16:18.17LuitvDand it's very thin
16:18.21LuitvDvery sexy
16:18.29buzthinness must be a new record
16:18.52LuitvDfor smartphones...
16:19.02buzwell for do it ALL smartphones especially
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16:19.07LuitvDthere's a 11mm motorola I guess...
16:19.20buzthere are just very few gps/cam/wifi/qwerty smartphones
16:19.32raynetsamsung has 6.9mm phone i think
16:19.40buzthats not a smartphone
16:19.49LuitvDgps/cam/wifi/qwerty/touchscreen/full-size-SD
16:20.01LuitvDray: yeah, that one is scary...
16:20.10buzthey now have a 5.9mm one
16:20.13raynet:P
16:20.14LuitvDs/ray/raynet/
16:20.24buzi think the only other device to do all of this is some weird toshiba winmobile thingy
16:20.29buzloox830 or some such
16:20.35koenbuz: I think for v2 (or v3) FIC needs to have 2 different models: one for people that like a smallish, but powerfull phone, and one model with 4" vga, qwerty, etc
16:20.47buz4" is too big
16:20.51LuitvD4"? :|
16:20.58LuitvDwaaay too big
16:21.06LuitvD3,5" tops
16:21.09buzgimme qwerty on 3" wvga
16:21.13LuitvD:P
16:21.19LuitvDbuz: slide qwerty?
16:21.23LuitvDthat'd be possible
16:21.25buzyes
16:21.38buzotherwise 2,8" vga and blackberry style
16:21.43buzbut keep the touchscreen
16:21.49LuitvDlol
16:21.53buz(main reason i didnt buy a nokia e61)
16:22.03buzwtf am i supposed to surf with joystick
16:22.09LuitvDdoes the nokia n73 have touchscreen?
16:22.30rayneta phone with 4" screen with couple mm borders would be great
16:22.30buzno nokia phones with TS
16:22.44raynetwith slide qwerty
16:22.55buzraynet: maybe if its widescreen
16:23.02buz4:3 is way to wide
16:23.19LuitvDraynet: like the iphone, but a higher res, slide-out keyboard, open software :P
16:23.20raynetbuz: sure, something like 2:1 or even 3:1
16:23.21tigerta 21" internet table(t) :)
16:23.36LuitvDlol, table :D
16:23.38buzi have a 12" tablet pc
16:23.38LuitvDgood one
16:23.42buzrather useless devices
16:23.46tigertwould be fun
16:23.46tigertand so inconvenient
16:23.52LuitvDtigert: a 21" tablet pc is more like a food tray :D
16:24.00LuitvD35" would be a table
16:24.00buzi have actually seen something like this a few month ago
16:24.14buza 17" touchscreen mounted in a coffeetable
16:24.17*** join/#openmoko chairuou (n=chairuou@58.187.61.219)
16:24.28raynetdoesnt Dell hve that silly luggable laptop with 22" screen or something
16:24.29buzseemed pretty stupid to me
16:24.31tigertlui: yea. many uses :)
16:24.38robtaylorits like spaceinvaders all over again
16:25.20LuitvDcintiq devices are nice :D
16:25.39LuitvDthat's actually 21,3" touchscreen
16:25.39rayneta blackberry like device with extra slide-in display would be cool
16:25.58LuitvDerr. slide-in display?
16:26.07*** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru)
16:26.12buzdual screen phone?!?
16:26.18raynetyup
16:26.26buzsounds awkward to handle
16:26.28tigertheh
16:26.29SpeedEvilI like the motorola A780s approach - fake dual screens.
16:26.29tigertpong table :)
16:26.29tigert(t)
16:26.38raynetwhere you see both screens at the same time.. with Nokia Communicators you need a mirror for that
16:26.39LuitvDbuz: there are already dual-screen phones... clamshell type...
16:26.41SpeedEvilUsing the real LCD to fake the backlight.
16:26.43SpeedEvilerr
16:26.49SpeedEvilexteral scree.
16:26.51buzwell i wouldnt call clamshell true dual head
16:26.52SpeedEviln
16:27.03LuitvDbuz: not all...
16:27.06SpeedEvilIf done right, with a low power LCD, it could work well.
16:27.18buzSpeedEvil: motorola a1200 does it better even
16:27.30buzif that one had wifi, i would have soooo bought it
16:27.45SpeedEvilYeah.
16:27.49SpeedEvilI like the A1200.
16:28.03SpeedEvilI'd like it more if you could actually develop native apps for it.
16:28.11buzeasily the sleekest linux phone ever built
16:28.46SpeedEvilI'd slightly debate the term 'linux'.
16:28.58SpeedEvil'phone with a linux kernel' yes.
16:28.59buzwell point
16:29.05buzmotux maybe
16:29.16*** join/#openmoko mako_ (n=mako@bork.hampshire.edu)
16:29.23SpeedEvilThey've taken tux, and locked him behind bars.
16:29.35LuitvDnot bars... stakes... :P
16:29.38koenOMG GNU!!!!!ONE!!!ONEONE!!
16:29.46koenthere, pre-emptive gnu-ing
16:30.38LuitvDlol? SDHCi driver built-in in the 2.6.17 vanilla kernel?
16:30.41LuitvD:D
16:31.04rayneti wonder if we are ever gonna get a gnuphone
16:31.12LuitvDbuz: the e28 thing most likely does SDHC :D if you'd be able to hack it to openmoko
16:31.25buzschweet
16:31.26buz8GB sd
16:31.30buzmuuuust have
16:31.33koenSDHC is just a driver
16:31.46LuitvDyeah :)
16:31.48koenSDHC is present in 2.6.20 iirc
16:31.52buztake that, iphone
16:31.58LuitvDkoen: 2.6.17
16:32.13koenno
16:32.15LuitvDbuz: why not a 32GB SD2.0?
16:32.22LuitvDkoen: no?\
16:32.35buzbecause there arent any
16:32.46LuitvD"The driver has been merged in the main kernel starting with 2.6.17-rc1." ...
16:32.51LuitvDhttp://mmc.drzeus.cx/wiki/Linux/Drivers/sdhci
16:32.51koenhttp://intr.overt.org/blog/?p=42
16:33.11koensdhci != sdhc
16:33.23LuitvD...
16:33.27koensdhci is the generic SD driver
16:33.35LuitvDhell... it's only one character off...
16:33.36koenSD-HC is SD High Capacity
16:33.54LuitvDah, yeah, now i see...
16:34.10LuitvDSD Host Controller Interface...
16:34.12LuitvDmy mistake
16:34.44koenwell, SDHC isn't in 2.6.20 as I said either :)
16:35.22koenshouldn't be hard to patch it into the neo 2.6.20.1 kernel
16:35.35LuitvDhope so...
16:37.26LuitvDthat e2881 is sooooo unbelievably thin :D
16:38.02LuitvDtoo bad the link to the user manual is broken...
16:43.45aloril4" HD 720 (1280x720) ;-)
16:44.52*** join/#openmoko bkuhn (n=bkuhn@fsf/member/bkuhn/bkuhn)
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16:47.41alorilaccording to wikipedia he doesn't have cell phone at all
16:48.12XorAaloril: I think it would catch fire in his hands
16:49.01SpeedEvilIt could be concealed in the beard.
16:49.10Stephmwor on a flunkie
16:49.21mjraloril, were you in Tre, by the way?
16:49.32alorilmjr: no
16:49.49alorilmjr: sometimes rarely visit it
16:50.24mjryeah
16:50.50mjrjust wondering if there were some faces from this channel that I didn't connect
16:51.00koenmjr: how's the meetup coming along?
16:52.03mjroh we had to leave already back to Helsinki
16:52.14mjrit was fun, typically finnish though, not very interactive
16:52.42mjrI made some remarks and asked a bit trying to breathe life into it a bit, but my mind's been rather elsewhere recently too ;)
16:52.57mjrwe almost saw a neo boot
16:53.05mjrbut it didn't have enough power
16:53.10koenheh
16:53.15mjrso all we really saw was the penguin boot logo and some text
16:53.22koenI keep hearing about discharged batteries
16:53.38mjrSean claimed that they'd succesfully made a phone call with it, though
16:53.54XorAmjr: I have made a phone call on Neo
16:54.42SpeedEvil:)
16:54.48SpeedEvilWith actual talking both sides?
16:54.58*** join/#openmoko rejo1 (n=rejon@adsl-75-5-124-98.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
16:54.59alorilabout RMS: "Owning a cell phone is giving into being monitored by mobile phone companies, he argues." (from http://www.redherring.com/Article.aspx?a=18757 )
16:54.59XorASpeedEvil: yes, lrg one end, me the other
16:55.29SpeedEvilkoen: There is uboot stuff to ask about and change the charger state.
16:56.42mjraloril, well, that's true. But if it gives me internet access, so be it :]
16:57.46alorilit sounds like even completely non proprietary cell phone is not OK for RMS, I guess one with wifi only (ie. no GSM) might be OK ;-) (but then that is probably better called PDA or mini laptop ;-)
16:58.23koenaloril: RMS only needs a phone to call the Lord of GNU
16:58.27mjroh wait, a "webpad"
17:00.15mjranyway, the live phone is surprisingly small even if I have seen the measurements
17:00.34mjrnot that light though, but that's of course because it's jam-packed with goodies!
17:01.35mjrapparently they're going to put in a bigger microsd by default than I thought, but I shan't mention a size since I might've gotten it wrong
17:02.06koen32MB instead of 16MB :)
17:03.41alorilanybody seen speed tests with various micro SD cards yet?
17:04.15*** join/#openmoko anarchris (n=anarchis@84.94.111.109.cable.012.net.il)
17:04.21inzmjr, 512 is what he said
17:04.35mjrok so he said it ;)
17:05.18koeninz: time for openmoko-hackers.org?
17:05.44inzkoen, not quite yet, maybe later ;)
17:05.50koen:)
17:08.11*** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=bob@p85.212.185.44.tisdip.tiscali.de)
17:09.27*** join/#openmoko rejo1 (n=rejon@adsl-75-5-124-98.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
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17:13.27*** join/#openmoko Eludias (n=eludias@wingding.demon.nl)
17:13.41LuitvDhas anyone found the price-tag on that e2881 yet? :P
17:14.57*** join/#openmoko loufoque (n=loufoque@smj33-1-82-233-64-48.fbx.proxad.net)
17:15.25*** join/#openmoko apardo (n=apardo@87.217.145.247)
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17:30.57LuitvD:P
17:31.20LuitvDs/gols/gold/ ?
17:33.59Kerophones devaluate as fast as they shrink
17:34.09Keroand openmoko can survive, even when neo fails
17:34.20LuitvDdottedmag: I'll never again be brainwashed by M$
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17:43.47hrwLuitvD: both yes. xchat rather unusable on vga
17:44.07LuitvDerr... not really...
17:44.20LuitvDit's useless on qvga... but vga is doable
17:44.27*** join/#openmoko suspence (n=spencer@208.187.196.34)
17:45.09Kerowith the size of openmoko's gtk theme, xchat will be unusable :P
17:45.39koenright
17:46.23LuitvDtelepathy?
17:46.29LuitvDconsole-style?
17:46.43harleypigWhat about voice recognition?
17:46.47LuitvD(don't know much IRC clients...)
17:46.49harleypigIs there enough power to do that?
17:46.51*** join/#openmoko TimRiker (n=timr@216.49.181.128)
17:47.05harleypigs/power/resources/
17:47.18Kerosmall-font text-based on 640x480 should be doable for IRC
17:47.26Keroand voice synthesis?
17:47.31SpeedEvilSimilar phones have forms of voice recognition.
17:47.33harleypigNo, voice recognition.
17:47.35SpeedEvilSynthesis is easy.
17:47.37Kero(answering machine in your cellphone, anyone?)
17:47.46LuitvDlol
17:47.52LuitvDyeah... possibly
17:47.57SpeedEvilAnswering machine in cellphone is a commonly thought of app.
17:48.12Kerosomeone will make it, I guess
17:48.19koentelepathy: http://telepathy.freedesktop.org/wiki/
17:48.45Kerohopefully with a better config language than asterisk (say, full scripting language, like ruby or python)
17:49.06SpeedEvilWe really want to use whatever anything else does.
17:49.13SpeedEvil64M flash and all that.
17:52.53*** join/#openmoko tuxmaniac (n=aanjhan@unaffiliated/tuxmaniac)
17:53.37tuxmaniaccounter
17:53.38alorilP0: a week 18:06:22 (1.754 - 7.754 days);  P1: 23.754 - 38.754;  P2: 191.754 - 221.754 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (378)
17:54.41koenrobtaylor: are you still working on telepathy?
17:55.17tuxmaniacHi People. Is there any way I can contribute to without the Neo1973 hardware?
17:55.29tuxmaniacIs there a say "emulator" that I can use ?
17:55.38koenemulator, schemulator
17:55.41dottedmaglol
17:56.16*** join/#openmoko dilinger (n=dilinger@wireless-19-36.media.mit.edu)
17:56.31SpeedEvilYes - wander over the wiki.
17:57.02SpeedEvilIn some cases you don't even need an emulator at all - it's just an X box, with 480*640 screen.
17:57.55jebbakoen, at least now you can point 'em to qemu images and be done with it  ;)
17:58.56tuxmaniacqemu images available? ;-)
17:59.18koenjebba: heh
17:59.36koenjebba: "the display is the wrong way <whine>"
17:59.42dottedmagtuxmaniac: http://ftp.blagblagblag.org/pub/blag/developers/jebba/openmoko/
17:59.47koenjebba: "it's slow <whine>"
18:00.02jebbaah, ya.  koen here's why I have the display that way:  http://wiki.openmoko.org/images/5/5d/Openmoko-jebba-devel.jpg
18:00.05koenjebba: "qemu doesn't work on my OMG 64bit pc <whine>"
18:00.33SpeedEvilIs there anything that'll give me psuedo-accurate timings? Will QEMU?
18:00.35jebbabut i think i'll make default qemu images with no mods. Then it'll be "it's stuck at 'Align your pointer'" or whatever it is... ;)
18:00.36koenjebba: and you need qemy to display that?
18:00.40koenSpeedEvil: nope
18:00.47tuxmaniackoen> heh.. You study at utwente.. ? LOL
18:00.48jebbaqemu /does/ work on 64bit pc. I use it on that too.
18:00.51SpeedEvilWell - other than hardware :)
18:01.14koenSpeedEvil: there's a hilarious pressrelease somewhere where some debian dude says that qemu on a 4GH cpu outperforms his 133MHz arm device
18:01.24SpeedEvil:)
18:01.43tuxmaniackoen> err. How ?
18:02.12jebbakoen, no, it's not /needed/.   But I would note that you bothered to put it on your ipaq too... By running it in qemu I finally got an idea of where things were at.  I understand all of your arguments and agree, but it's still nice to be like  "ok here's the picture".....
18:02.52*** join/#openmoko LuitvD (n=luitvd@beigetower/luitvd)
18:02.53koenjebba: qemu nor Xoo work well on a mac
18:03.13jebbawell tough shit for mac users, i couldn't care less about that....
18:04.22SpeedEvilHmm. I suppose, looking at it, it seems like the cheapest way to do MP3 will be to decode a several M buffer to RAM, go to slow mode and play till it nearly empties, repeat.
18:04.24*** join/#openmoko morricone (i=foobar@dslb-084-057-149-107.pools.arcor-ip.net)
18:05.21koenjebba: the main reason is that I hate packaging, which OE does for me, so installing it on my ipaq way easy (ipkg install task-openmoko)
18:07.07*** join/#openmoko Magon (n=Magon@archangel.kolej.mff.cuni.cz)
18:07.16jebbaanyway, it doesn't /hurt/ to have qemu images, i don't think, if only to answer the emulator question. ;)
18:07.28koenyeah
18:07.49koenbut as Xora said: " XorA guesses that if your first question is "is there an emulator" then your not actually ever going to do dev work :-)"
18:08.30hrwanyway there will be neo1973-qemu but not in month or two
18:09.26jebbabut doing dev work isn't the /only/ thing either...  just kicking it around and getting excited has it's own merit...
18:09.29koenmaybe after keel-hauling the hardware dudes
18:10.15tuxmaniacjebba> true.
18:10.51koenjebba: "just kicking it around and getting excited" still doesn't need an emulator
18:11.07koenjebba: but I guess people are to used to proprietary crap requiring an emulator
18:14.17noiddlooks like there is another hardware problem with p0.  Good news is that at least it seems fixable.
18:14.42koennoidd: isn't that old news?
18:15.41noiddas posted on planet.openmoko.org?
18:15.47noiddI guess i'm just behind in the loop
18:23.04*** join/#openmoko billstevenson (n=billstev@client-128-118-185-125.mobility-up.psu.edu)
18:23.13natetrueunfortunately hardware bugs always happen
18:23.56hrwyes. they are
18:24.16*** join/#openmoko pleemans (n=peter@d51A5E76A.access.telenet.be)
18:24.37jebbabillstevenson? From the Descendents?  :)
18:24.40hrwphase0 devices will delay to march
18:24.58hrwor even end of march
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18:28.08LuitvDwhat?
18:29.08*** join/#openmoko pirulo_ (n=andres_p@65.19.28.123)
18:29.20buzis that just a guess or something more informed
18:29.57hrwsth
18:30.32buzdooooh
18:31.25buzmy p900 is slowly but surely dying
18:31.26*** join/#openmoko chrustinho (n=christop@p57B0099F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
18:31.40natetruehow is it dying?
18:31.56dottedmagbuz: good h/w a bit later is better than bad h/w earlier, I think.
18:32.07buzsure
18:32.08natetrueespecially if the bad h/w doesn't work
18:32.16buznatetrue: the touchscreen doesnt really react
18:32.24buzand ocassionally it gets sms only after reboots
18:32.30natetruesad
18:32.35dottedmagIt's a pity you can't 'apt-get upgrade' buggy chips :)
18:32.50buzits nearly 3,5years old
18:32.54buzserved me well
18:33.05natetruethey were working on self-updateable larger chips
18:33.08koendottedmag: FPGA!!
18:33.10natetrueFPGA-like
18:33.16buzFPGA
18:33.29buznow they just need to add FPGA PCBs...
18:33.30natetruebut FPGA's are expensive and bulky, aren't they?
18:33.39koenjust attach a wire to an FPGA and you have a gsm stack ;)
18:33.42buzand powerhungry
18:33.49natetrueooh, powerhungry is not an option
18:33.51buzand all around stupid to put in a phone
18:35.40koendoes that thing gain an extra number every hour?
18:35.55koena few hours ago it was 'e28' then 'e281' and now 'e2881'
18:36.06buze28 is the manufacturer
18:37.53*** join/#openmoko grgehunt (n=greg@88-108-85-149.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com)
18:39.25florianhi philippe
18:39.34philippehi florian
18:39.49hrwhi philippe
18:39.57natetruehi everyone!
18:40.04philippehi hrw & others...
18:40.13philippeseems to be busy here today :-)
18:41.01natetruewe're all forlorn about the P0 delays
18:43.33LuitvDcounter
18:43.33alorilP0: a week 17:16:26 (1.720 - 7.720 days);  P1: 23.720 - 38.720;  P2: 191.720 - 221.720 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (379)
18:43.34LuitvD?
18:43.35natetruewell, when you have to choose one, sure
18:43.36koen"doesn't happen overnight" to quote nokia
18:43.50natetruebut i wouldn't mind good products on schedule...
18:43.57natetrueesp since i have to wait for P1
18:44.01natetruenot that i'm complaining
18:44.02*** join/#openmoko epx (n=Elvis@200.184.118.132)
18:44.09natetruei know that delays are simply unavoidable
18:44.36koenwe could have had it last month, without bluetooth
18:44.43koenso I think the delay is worth it
18:45.04buzunfortunately the extension doesnt hold, waiting one more month to get wifi :(
18:45.20koenOMG WIFI!!!ONE!!!ONE!!
18:45.29floriangnaaaa
18:45.34hrwI WANT IT 2!!
18:45.47buzbut maybe waiting two months will get you that V8
18:45.51hrw802.11N ROXXX!
18:45.57*** join/#openmoko Zoolooc (n=Zoolooc@p54951A23.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
18:46.00hrwetc crap
18:46.07koenOMG V8!!!!!
18:46.08cjbnatetrue: if this were a typical hardware project, it would have all the same delays; you just wouldn't be hearing about them.
18:46.53natetrueyup
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19:02.59xkr47%query NickServer
19:03.00xkr47oops
19:04.56jebbatrunk/oe/conf/distro/openmoko.conf:      DISTRO_NAME = "OpenMoKo"        Shouldn't be "MoKo" (no upper K)... small, i know... ;)
19:05.09natetruesubmit a patch!
19:05.30jebbas/MoKo/Moko   done.
19:05.44loufoquewhat does Moko stand for?
19:05.58koenloufoque: bad spelling
19:06.12leventhalmobile kommunicator
19:06.19natetrueMoKo
19:06.24*** join/#openmoko jiffyjeff (n=JJacobs@64.128.15.226)
19:06.28mxn-
19:07.04jebbasame for  include/openmoko.inc
19:07.56koenjebba: that's Corporate Consistency at work :)
19:09.10aevinOpenNo-no ;-)
19:10.48aevinIf you check out some of the kernel patches they still suffer from license text inaccuracies as pointed out on one of the MLs. I guess they've got their hands full already...
19:18.28aloril2SeedEvil: I think laforge mentioned support for USB-serial on u-boot: so need for JTAG should be quite rare
19:19.12koenserial and usb-dfu
19:19.29koenjtag would only be needed if you screw up uboot somehow
19:19.34koenwhich is pretty hard to do
19:22.26SpeedEvilaloril2: it's on the u-boot page of wiki
19:22.48CIA-7openmoko: 03mickey * r1075 10/trunk/oe/packages/sidplay-base/ (. sidplay-base_1.0.9.bb):
19:22.48CIA-7openmoko: oe: add sidplay-base, a spartanic console player for SID music
19:22.48CIA-7openmoko: Yes, it feels good emulating 20 year old hardware...
19:22.48CIA-7openmoko: FYI: Playing SID consumes 10% processing power...
19:23.43*** join/#openmoko helb (n=helb@84.244.90.159)
19:24.21xkr47:)
19:25.24SpeedEvilSID?
19:25.24xkr47commodore 64
19:25.25xkr47or maybe commando :)
19:25.28leventhalacid_jazz
19:25.35SpeedEvilAh.
19:25.45hrwxkr47: did you heard Commando played by Press Play On Tape band?
19:25.52xkr47no :)
19:25.59hrwthen try it
19:26.31xkr47youtube ?
19:26.40xkr47:)
19:26.48*** join/#openmoko apakatt (n=apakatt@89.207.216.81.static.j.siw.siwnet.net)
19:26.51hrwxkr47: google: press play on tape
19:27.01xkr47thx
19:27.18SpeedEvil1Khz(?) squarewave, phase reversing at .5 second intervals.
19:27.27leventhali'd go for acid_jazz just for the opportunities to explain how timbaland stole it
19:27.30SpeedEvilVery distinctive.
19:28.20*** join/#openmoko MetaBookfoziS (n=sajt@3e70cf46.adsl.enternet.hu)
19:28.25xkr47lol http://www.tradebit.com/filedetail.php/1232720
19:30.14xkr47http://www.c64audio.com/productInfo.php?cat=PG01
19:33.21aevingrab the High Voltage SID Collection to feed sidplay :)
19:34.06xkr47yeah I have it :)
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19:34.40florianbbl
19:35.25aloril2koen: I guess this: u-boot is outside disk image so dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sda (or whatever it  is) won't affect it, also you need to deliberately unprotect critical sectors in u-boot prompt and write to there: so it takes a bit knowledge to brick it
19:37.22aevini guess you won't screw up the stepping stone in the s3c2410 by accident either
19:37.52xkr47"accidental copypaste from wiki"
19:41.50koenaloril2: it's on a seperate parition
19:42.08koen<PROTECTED>
19:43.40cjbkoen: You shouldn't use mtdblock.
19:44.06cjbMTD devices aren't block devices.  "mount -t jffs2 md0 /mnt" is the correct way to use the device.
19:44.11cjbuh
19:44.15cjbs/md0/mtd0/
19:44.49cjb(First entry of http://www.linux-mtd.infradead.org/archive/tech/faq.html .)
19:45.32hrwcjb: and usually pda has each /dev/mtdX also available as /dev/mtdblockX
19:46.05cjbhrw: No, I think you're confused -- /dev/mtd0 would be a character device, which isn't mountable.
19:46.36cjbAn MTD0 device is "mtd0", with no /dev in front.  There are some devices that don't have entries in /dev, and an MTD device is one of them.
19:46.46hrwcjb: want a list of /dev/mtd* from one of my devices on desk?
19:46.55koenkoen@hx4700:~$ ls /dev/mtd*
19:47.00cjbsigh,
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19:47.04koen<PROTECTED>
19:47.13cjb/dev/mtd* are character devices.  Try mounting one, it will fail.
19:47.20cjb<PROTECTED>
19:47.36cjb<PROTECTED>
19:48.00cjb<PROTECTED>
19:48.16cjbI don't know how to say it any more clearly, and the FAQ I linked to clearly says the same thing, so I'll stop here.
19:48.48koenactually it doesn't
19:48.56hrwI'll stop too - have to start packing for fosdem rather
19:49.00koen"Yes, the latest nand driver code forces the protection of bad block information. It's safe to erase a NAND flash with erase(all) /dev/mtdX. It's recommended to use eraseall with -j or --jffs2 option set. This will write the cleanmarker to the out of band area. So you can mount the filesystem and no further formatting is needed. This formatting is also neccecary before you copy a fs-image to the chip.
19:49.00koen"
19:49.25cjbkoen: The character device is indeed used for erasing the device.
19:49.38cjbWhy don't you try mounting it?
19:50.38cjbkoen: If you've forgotten what a character device is:  "Character devices were things like keyboards or mice, that you could read current data from, but couldn't be seeked and didn't have a size".
19:51.48koenwell, mtdblock<number> has been working for years and if what the mtd dudes recommended me at the time
19:52.16Elrondaloril2 - If one can write (erase) straight from the cmdline... then erasing the first block on the nand will brick the device. (unless you're fast to ntice and put a uboot back.)
19:52.24cjbIt works, it's just an emulation.  It's certainly not recommended by the MTD maintainers, as that FAQ clearly states.
19:52.34cjb"So mtd is neither a block nor a char device. There are translations to use them, as if they were. But those translations are nowhere near the original ..|
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19:53.24koenthe faq never mentions /dev/mtdblock
19:53.24cjbElrond: Yes, running a cmdline to erase the flash is trivial, as root.
19:54.04cjbkoen: What about the following phrase makes you think that they aren't talking about mtdblock?  This is crazy.
19:54.08cjb"Flash doesn't match the description of either block or character devices. They behave similar to block device, but have differences. For example, block devices don't destinguish between write and erase operations. Therefore, a special device type to match flash characteristics was created: mtd."
19:54.40koenright
19:54.48koennothing about /dev/mtdblock
19:54.52cjb!
19:55.00Clintls -l /dev/mtdblock0
19:57.56cjbkoen: It's a shame that you're unable to infer that "Block debives are inappropriate, so we created mtd0" means "/dev/mtdblock* was inappropriate, so we created mtd0*".  You should consider e-mailing the FAQ maintainer to tell him that you find his FAQ unclear.
19:59.10koenyou just said mtdblock was not a block device, but emulation
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20:03.39cjbkoen: I did not say that.  Quoting from the FAQ, I said that an MTD is not a block device.  It isn't.  It is possible to make a block device emulate an MTD, which you shouldn't do, but which you do do when you use /dev/mtdblock0.
20:04.54poppoWere do i get one of these phones?
20:05.10mjrnowhere as of yet
20:05.37koencjb: right
20:05.46poppoWhat about for testing developing etc
20:06.01koencjb: but the faq doesn't say if /dev/mtdblock shares the disadvantages of regular block devices
20:06.16mjrpoppo, yes, that's what I meant
20:06.18mjrcounter
20:06.19alorilP0: a week 15:53:41 (1.662 - 7.662 days);  P1: 23.662 - 38.662;  P2: 191.662 - 221.662 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (380)
20:06.28koencjb: and to make it worse, it never mentions /dev/mtdblockX nor mtdX
20:06.37poppomjr: So its not working yet
20:07.16mjractually, that's not the implication, though apparently there _have_ been some problems
20:07.18don-opoppo: "All interested developers can purchase Neos starting late March. "
20:07.24don-opoppo: from http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-February/000003.html
20:07.36cjbkoen: Okay.  I agree that the FAQ could go into more detail.  I can assure that its intent is to tell you that you should "mount mtd0 /mnt" and *not* "mount /dev/mtdblock0 /mnt".
20:07.39*** join/#openmoko jim_rayner (n=jim_rayn@beyondvoice.plus.com)
20:07.43don-o"Finally, we will offer Neos to end users sometime in September of this
20:07.43don-oyear."
20:07.57don-othat should probably be in the topic :)
20:08.19koencjb: I read it as "block devices are bad mmmmkay, mtd devices aren't block devices"
20:08.25koenwhich I already knew
20:08.50cjbkoen: You're reading it wrong, I'm afraid.
20:08.57koenI know that now
20:09.06koenbut only after trying to mount mtd3
20:09.10koennot by googling
20:09.15cjbOkay. I understand..
20:09.36*** topic/#openmoko by SpeedEvil -> OpenMoko Community Lounge <> Free Your Phone <> { www|wiki|bugzilla|planet|projects|lists|svn|svnweb } .openmoko.org | You can buy it in a month or so for $350, see the wiki. Mass market in September.
20:10.10koencjb: I initially tried 'mount -t jffs2 mtd0 /mtn/temp'
20:10.14koenwhich didn't work
20:10.23cjbkoen: How come?
20:10.23koensince that was the bootloader :)
20:10.28cjbAh.  :)
20:10.44koenmtd3 worked (/home partition)
20:11.13koenreminds me of my annoyance with linux: everything is a file, except network devices
20:11.37cjbright :)
20:12.27rd_mtd actually has optional char & block device access support
20:12.52koenrd_: right, hence the confusion
20:13.06rd_you can enable/disable it when you compileyour kernel iirc
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20:13.18poppoLooks like a good product umm have to get me one of these
20:13.30poppoIntegrate with sip
20:13.33poppowould be awesome
20:19.55*** join/#openmoko loufoque (n=loufoque@smj33-1-82-233-64-48.fbx.proxad.net)
20:20.45koencjb: http://lists.linuxtogo.org/pipermail/openembedded-devel/2007-February/001490.html
20:21.48cjbkoen: Sorry, I'm on a conf call/only have ssh right now.  I'll look at your URL later.
20:22.04rd_koen, i tho mtdblock would be used for erase purpose only  
20:22.18cjbrd_: no, that's the char device.  :)  /dev/mtd*.
20:22.57rd_cjb, those mtdblock are faster for erasing :)
20:23.11cjbOh!  With dd, right?  That makes sense.
20:23.24cjbI usually use `flash_eraseall -j /dev/mtd0`.
20:23.40cjbI'm not sure dd to the block device would write the bad block table after formatting?
20:23.43koencjb: the subject is "[oe] RFC: stop mounting /dev/mtdblockX but mount mtdX (without /dev) instead"
20:23.50cjbWhich sounds a little dangerous, but maybe isn't.
20:24.00cjbkoen: Ah, thanks.  I'll keep an eye on the thread.
20:24.00koenand starts with "Chris Ball from the OLPC project was kind (and patient) enough to explain the first item of http://www.linux-mtd.infradead.org/archive/tech/faq.html to me."
20:24.06koen:D
20:24.49rd_koen, go to the menuconfig in your kernel src and read the help page for mtdchar & mtdblock
20:25.09rd_there are explaination inside that
20:26.38cjbkoen: ;-)
20:27.11rd_cjb, OLPC is nice :p
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20:35.48aloril2cjb: sounds like you can brick-lart clueless newbie trough irc
20:37.12cjbaloril2: nah, hardly.  kernel stuff is often more complex than it should be.
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20:42.23aloril2cjb: OK, then simple flash_eraseall and/or dd command wont destroy critical u-boot sectors?
20:43.20cjbaloril2: Don't know, sorry.  I'm most familiar with OLPC, which has its bootloader in the BIOS.
20:44.23koendepending on the flash used you can lock sectors/cells
20:44.39koenso you have to use mtd-utils to unlock it first
20:45.37loufoquewhat's the point of locking sectors of a flash drive?
20:46.15buzhow long does it take to boot into the qemu-arm image
20:46.29koenloufoque: to prevent users dd'ing nonsense to them
20:47.29loufoqueI see.
20:48.28aloril2koen: 'unprotect'; dd ..
20:49.04koenaloril2: right
20:49.26koenaloril2: there's no good prevention against PEBKAC
20:49.33koenbut people can try :)
20:50.23vmastermhh, the NAND used on the neo1973 doesn't have protection, and neither does the S3C2410's NAND controller
20:50.41cjbAh, shame.
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20:50.47cjbCan it boot from USB storage?
20:50.52pH5mtd partitions can also be declared write-only in the kernel
20:51.07cjbDo you mean read-only?
20:51.27koenvmaster: I only encountered intel NOR that could do it
20:51.34pH5cjb: yeah :) how did you know?
20:52.07nbdwrite only media are fun
20:52.08aloril2"You should not run commands given in IRC if you don't undrstand them"
20:52.21nbdone could consider /dev/null a device driver that handles write only media in a generic way
20:52.35cjb:)
20:54.20loufoquenbd: it doesn't support seeking though
20:54.24vmastercjb: don't think it can boot from USB - if a user really manages to kill the bootloader he'll need JTAG to unbrick the device
20:54.40cjbvmaster: Ouch.  The JTAG connector is populated, at least?
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20:55.04nbdloufoque: echo foo | dd of=/dev/null bs=1M seek=2
20:55.06nbdloufoque: works for me :)
20:55.27vmastercjb: there's a debug board available that makes JTAG available
20:55.34stefan_schmidtcjb: If you like to work on bootloader you really like to get a debug board which gives you a jtag on board
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20:56.09stefan_schmidtcjb: And use vmaster's OpenOCD to dirive it. :)
20:56.20cjbstefan_schmidt: Oh, that's good, I didn't realise the debug board had JTAG.  We have a Neo here with no debug board..
20:57.08xkr47for phase 1 at least .P
20:57.22stefan_schmidtcjb: Yes, debug board v2 has the jatg chip on the boards.
20:57.40buzi wonder how many might slip through their fingers
20:57.52cjbstefan_schmidt: That's a neat board.
20:57.54stefan_schmidtIt has even a connector for other jtag enabled devices.
20:58.01stefan_schmidtcjb: indeed
20:58.34stefan_schmidtcjb: Something many hackers thought about already but where not able to produce as FIC can
20:59.17stefan_schmidtNOTE: Update svn://svn.o-hand.com/repos/dates/branches/private;module=omoko;proto=https
20:59.17stefan_schmidtsvn: REPORT request failed on '/repos/dates/!svn/vcc/default'
20:59.17stefan_schmidtsvn: Cannot replace a directory from within
20:59.28koenstefan_schmidt: wait ~2 hours
20:59.40koenstefan_schmidt: that repo didn't exist last midnight
21:00.00stefan_schmidtkoen: ah, ok
21:00.26koenstefan_schmidt: I realised that after the commit, sorry about that
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21:00.44stefan_schmidtkoen: np
21:05.20aloril2koen: probably very rare
21:05.56stefan_schmidtaloril2: I don't think they remove the adapter in P2. Why should they?
21:05.58cjbkoen: Jim Gettys has an iPaq "Valhalla" of bricked devices people sent him to recover.
21:06.26koencjb: that's because people were flashing bootloaders from inside wince
21:06.28cjbkoen: He said people would download random ROMs they found in people's web directories and write them to their iPaqs.  Apparently it was a huge problem.
21:06.42koens/ROM/image/
21:06.53aloril2still would be bad pr if somebod bricks device by pasting 'simple command' and there was no 'easy' way to unbrick
21:07.21*** join/#openmoko Skyhusker (n=fiam@cm-83-97-128-47.telecable.es)
21:07.31koen"rm -rf /"
21:07.31b_lindeijerMaybe it should have something like IE 7's reset button.
21:07.34koenpaste that
21:07.45stefan_schmidtaloril2: I'm sure they make it hard for p2 phase to brick the device
21:07.57LuitvDkoen: lol, that's a nice command
21:08.05Skyhuskerchannel hi
21:08.13Skyhuskererrr, hi
21:08.16koenSkyhusker: hi
21:08.19SkyhuskerXD
21:08.23Skyhuskerhi koen
21:08.23stefan_schmidthi Skyhusker
21:08.29LuitvDhello Skyhusker
21:08.59LuitvDkoen: "rm -rf /" is like windows' "format c:" right?
21:08.59Skyhuskerhi LuitvD
21:09.10LuitvDstefan_schmidt: lol, he ignores you :D
21:09.14leventhalMore like deltree c:\
21:09.16koenLuitvD: no, like deltree -y
21:09.20LuitvDheheh
21:09.31LuitvDsorry, don't know any msdos commands
21:09.39LuitvDapart from dir and cd...
21:10.09b_lindeijerI guess it won't do much as non-root though, so it's not such an easy command.
21:10.13aloril2koen: you can recover from that by following instructions, no need to send/bring Neo1973 to somebody with debug_board
21:10.31leventhaldebug_board? why the underscore?
21:12.25cjbIs the firmware for the Neo open-source too?
21:12.48stefan_schmidtcjb: which firmware you refer to?
21:13.16cjbstefan_schmidt: Whatever boots the NAND.  I was thinking about writing (well, porting) a USB capable bootloader.
21:13.57stefan_schmidtcjb: hmm, NAND needs something else then a driver in the bootloader?
21:14.14fluffscjb: the cpu boots the nand directly
21:14.15cjbstefan_schmidt: Well, I want to do it for when the NAND is unbootable.
21:14.22stefan_schmidtcjb: Bootloader is uboot. And the patches are already started to send upstream
21:14.42fluffscjb: if the nand is unbootable, oyu must use jtag to restore it
21:15.12*** part/#openmoko CheeseHead (n=CheeseHe@139.182.35.172)
21:15.17cjbSo it needs to be a layer above the NAND, in the BIOS/EC.
21:15.17cjbbrb
21:15.45fluffsno, the cpu boots directly from the nand
21:16.02fluffsuboot is the first thing that is executed, and it is loaded from nand
21:16.30vmasterdoesn't it need a first-stage that fits in the 4k stepping stone?
21:16.41fluffsthat 4K is loaded from nand
21:16.41vmasterwhich enables sdram, and then loads u-boot
21:16.54fluffsand is the first 4K of uboot
21:17.07vmasterah, that's already part of u-boot? nice
21:17.44aloril2cjb: OpenMoko u-boot already has USB-seria support
21:17.46fluffsunfortunatley the cpu can only boot from either NAND or directly connected flasg
21:18.02aloril2s/seria/serial/
21:24.54koenand usb-dfu support
21:27.10koenusb-dfu is what is actually usefull
21:27.11buzexactly how am i supposed to change the X config in the qemu arm image???
21:27.11buzremove the 270?
21:27.11koenbuz: use Xoo instead of qemu
21:27.12koenor use Xoo in combination with qemu
21:27.25loufoqueyou just need Xoo really
21:27.33buzi'm lazy
21:27.44koenotherwise read the devel-list
21:27.47buzi just want to download some image and look at it ;)
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21:28.22buzthat lost its shock value long ago
21:28.27loufoquekoen: you're so nasty
21:29.18threshnoway, 2litre/sec flatrate line from brewery
21:29.39leventhalwicked
21:35.08Psi_heh
21:37.13xkr47SpeedEvil, :D
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22:18.21jebbabuilding svn:   "package openmoko-dialer-0.0.1+svn20070221-r0: task do_configure: failed"   because    "configure: error: *** Required libasound not installed ***"
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22:30.18jebbakoen, any hint there ^^^ ?   One thing I don't understand is whether that means it's missing an .ipkg dep that it wants or does it need some local/cross library.  cluebat? :)
22:30.33koenno, you don't understand
22:30.45koenit's missing a build time dependency, not an ipkg
22:30.47LoRezinstall the devel portion of that library
22:30.58koenLoRez: bzzzzt! wrong!
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22:31.27LoRezhow is it wrong when it's very nearly what you said?
22:31.41koenjebba: bitbake alsa-lib or add 'alsa-lib' to the DEPENDS of openmoko-dialer_svn.bb
22:31.50koenLoRez: because it's wrong
22:31.59koenLoRez: go read up on openembedded
22:32.13LoRezI personally don't give a big enough shit :)
22:32.20jebbakoen, actually i did try adding alsa-lib to that...
22:32.27jebbathat's what i did first
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22:34.13jebbaopenmoko/trunk/oe/packages/openmoko-apps/openmoko-dialer_svn.bb
22:34.13jebbaDEPENDS += "libgsmd alsa-lib"
22:35.10koendoes that come before or after the inherit?
22:35.24jebbain fact, I even have libasound2_1.0.13-r1_armv5te.ipk   hmm.
22:35.39jebbabefore.
22:36.52koentry 'bitbake alsa-lib'
22:37.12koenif that runs the staging tasks I think I know what's wrong
22:38.12jebbakoen, ya, that's already built. I thought i may have just been misunderstanding the whole process a bit, but it sounds like the problem is something deeper. Thanks for sanity checking me though.  ;)
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22:53.10jebbakoen, ah, its eds-dbus. The error set me on a wrong path:  http://www.pastebin.ca/366812
22:54.07koenkoen@bitbake:~/OE/monotone/org.openembedded.dev/packages/openmoko-apps$ grep DEPENDS openmoko-dialer_svn.bb
22:54.07koenDEPENDS += " eds-dbus libgsmd"
22:54.08jebbaThat said, what's the best/fastest way to get   ' DEPENDS += "libgsmd eds-dbus" '    added to openmoko-dialer_svn.bb ?
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22:54.21koenthat's why I don't use openmoko svn
22:54.25jebbaheh
22:54.58jebbaya, when OE/OM are combined...will be nice. That's throwing me off a bit.
22:55.19jebba"I'm just here for dictation--don't want to be a sensation..."
22:55.44robtaylorkoen: not really, why?
22:56.17koenrobtaylor: just wondering
22:56.23jebbakoen, ya, so if some OM guy is hacking away at openmoko-dialer how do you get their new $foo feature yet maintain your "eds-dbus" fix?
22:56.43koenrobtaylor: now I know I need to hassle Robot101 for telepathy stuff :)
22:56.55koenjebba: the .bb file is not the source
22:57.30robtaylorkoen: well, i'm working on an application that uses telepathy :)
22:57.46koenrobtaylor: ah right, I fear I asked that question before
22:58.14jebbarobtaylor, telepathy for VoIP IIRC?
22:58.23jebbasoftphones + jingle or something, no?
22:58.36robtaylorjebba: telepathy for im, voip
22:58.55robtaylorjebba: all the im/vvoip on the n800 is done with it
22:59.17jebbaya, i was poking at that once, but the main gui was mono and i don't go there  ;)
22:59.38robtaylorjebba: ah, you can now use gossip
23:00.02jebbai just settled on kiax, which has faults, but works... gossip do IAX2?
23:00.24*** join/#openmoko MDK (n=mdk@cs181209253.pp.htv.fi)
23:04.10jebbagossip does not to IAX2 (nor SIP for that matter).  ...
23:13.13*** join/#openmoko yacc (n=andreas@h1634.serverkompetenz.net)
23:14.03CoreDump|homehi
23:15.11*** join/#openmoko ml8128 (n=ml8128@75.161.97-84.rev.gaoland.net)
23:15.15LuitvDhey
23:17.13LuitvDhmm, not good... they found out they can extract methane from alaska's ice...
23:17.14LuitvDhttp://www.ktuu.com/Global/story.asp?S=6115953
23:17.29LuitvDthere goes the environment...
23:31.25*** join/#openmoko msroest (n=msroest@S01060040f41dad58.cg.shawcable.net)
23:38.45CIA-7openmoko: 03laforge * r1076 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/ (4 files):
23:38.46CIA-7openmoko: * move S3C23410 resume related definitions from udc patch to resume patch
23:38.46CIA-7openmoko: * merge qt2410 and neo1973 resume patches into one which now edits start.S
23:41.43CoreDump|homecounter
23:41.44alorilP0: a week 12:18:16 (1.513 - 7.513 days);  P1: 23.513 - 38.513;  P2: 191.513 - 221.513 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (381)
23:43.04*** join/#openmoko cprf (n=rzinkov@oss-staff.rutgers.edu)
23:45.19*** join/#openmoko dilinger_ (n=dilinger@1cc-dhcp-146.media.mit.edu)
23:48.46jebbahrw|gone, does that push phase1 as well? I assume so, but just chekcing.
23:49.39jebbaaloril, you may have to update your P0 c0unter...
23:52.03LuitvDI hope it doesn't push P1...
23:52.44LuitvDmightn't it be just a good idea to give the P0 people a P1 device? or are the P0 devices already produced?
23:53.18jebbamightn't it be just a good idea to give me a P0/1 device?  ;)
23:53.34LuitvDlol
23:54.01LuitvDmightn't it be just a good idea to give everyone in the world a P2 device?
23:54.25LuitvD(or any other device of choise that'll run openmoko)
23:54.47LuitvDI might be able to get one of those  e2881 devices :)
23:55.37LuitvDI think I'll like that device more then a Neo1973
23:55.50LuitvDbut I'm not sure, because I don't know the price yet...
23:55.55jebbaopenmoko + last.fm + GPS + Neighbors would be interesting...   One issue is getting enough people up on it.  It's like having a telephone that can only call 1 person.
23:56.03LuitvDI do know someone who can find out the price though :)
23:56.25LuitvDhmm...
23:56.36LuitvDlast.fm for openmoko would be cool :D
23:56.50jebbai just have a really shitty low-end cellphone. I've had fancy ones in the past but the thought of fkn with them for 4 hours to get mp3 or something just put me off. Of course I'll spend hundreds of hours on one that's open though. ;)
23:58.07LuitvDyeah... trying to hack your way in to closed source software is annoying
23:58.32LuitvDan hacking your way into open source software isn't possible :)

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