irclog2html for #openmoko on 20070220

00:01.57stefan_schmidtMagon: You mean http -> https, right?
00:02.13Magonno ..all https -> http
00:02.13stefan_schmidtMagon: it's only neede for svn.o-hand.com/repos/dates/branches/private
00:02.25Magonsince i have no access to https svn
00:02.32Magonbut this one is abnormal
00:02.53stefan_schmidtah, you changed it in the past
00:03.08Magonyes
00:03.33MagonNo such file or directory: '/opt/openembedded/openmoko/trunk/oe/packages/openmoko-pim/openmoko-dates/./compile-fix.patch'
00:03.36Magon??
00:04.18stefan_schmidtiirc the patch was removed
00:04.40Magonok..co i need to remove it from aplaying
00:04.49stefan_schmidtyes
00:05.15*** join/#openmoko cathal (n=cathal@89.100.102.170)
00:05.21stefan_schmidtBut it should be fixed in the same commit while removing the patch
00:05.36Magoni have head..i hope
00:05.42stefan_schmidtPerhaps some caching?
00:05.51*** part/#openmoko suspence (n=spencer@208.187.196.34)
00:05.58stefan_schmidtYou can try to bitbake -c clean
00:06.25Magonok
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00:10.30CIA-7openmoko: 03mickey * r1046 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/panel-plugins/openmoko-panel-battery/ (3 files in 2 dirs): openmoko-panel-battery: first version working w/ matchbox-panel-2
00:11.07robtaylorooh, CIA for openmoko
00:11.08robtaylornice
00:11.15LuitvDlol
00:12.16Eleafbut seriously..
00:12.19Eleafwhat is this moko project?
00:12.35LuitvDEleaf: read openmoko.org ;)
00:12.51Eleafthere isn't much info there LuitvD
00:12.54Eleafthat's why I came here.
00:13.04EleafIt's just like... get ready for an open phone...yay.
00:13.05LuitvDEleaf: summary: It's a linux distro for mobile phones,
00:13.19Eleafand what is the status?  Support?
00:13.28LuitvDEleaf: and the first open mobile phone will be the FIC Neo 1973
00:13.32EleafIt would be cool if it ran on my 15 year old cell phone.
00:13.47Eleafhmm
00:14.05LuitvDwhich will be tested for a while now (the hardware has just been 'finished', and will be tested from now on)
00:14.11LuitvDand the software is Openmoko :)
00:14.15stefan_schmidtEleaf: No chance. It uses linux. Means you need linux support for your phone.
00:14.35Eleafhmm
00:14.46Eleafso almost any new phone?
00:14.56EleafOr is it even then still restricted to a few phones.
00:15.00stefan_schmidtEleaf: ...which has a linux port.
00:15.13Eleafuhh
00:15.21EleafI have no idea which those are ;)
00:16.17stefan_schmidtPeople working on support for some motorola and HTC smartphones.
00:16.33LuitvDEleaf: the Neo1973 ('the' openmoko phone for now) is quite a cool device... take a look at the specs: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Hardware
00:17.05EleafLuitvD, so does openmoko work with anything yet?
00:17.20LuitvDEleaf: yes, that device
00:17.33Eleafoh, but how well?
00:17.36EleafStable?
00:17.38LuitvDthough, openmoko is still in a testing and development phase
00:17.43Eleafah yes
00:17.47LuitvDfar from stable I guess...
00:18.01EleafThat looks like a cool phone, but quite expensive.
00:18.12LuitvDEleaf: look at the alternatives...
00:18.31LuitvDthe Greenphone is even more expensive (about $800 IIRC)
00:18.35EleafI'm not seeing it
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00:18.57Eleafso then how do you connect with a service provider LuitvD ?
00:19.20LuitvDEleaf: just insert a SIM card, and the GSM daemon will connect
00:19.27LuitvDas usual
00:19.32Eleafhmm
00:19.37LuitvD(just like on most smartphones)
00:19.48EleafThat's pretty cool
00:20.10LuitvDthat's maybe even the most uncool part :P
00:20.14SuNGet subscription from online store -> get them to cashback the sum the provider pays so you can normally get a free phone -> not so expensive.
00:20.22rwhitbyEleaf: have you read wiki.openmoko.org yet?
00:20.39rwhitbyevery single question you have asked so far is answered there.
00:20.43EleafI was there only quickly
00:20.49rwhitbywell, be there slowly :-)
00:20.52Eleafit's interface scared me off ;)
00:21.08LuitvDEleaf: then use the search ;) I bet you know how to use that
00:21.12EleafI must have gone to the mailing list page.
00:21.21EleafI thought I went to the wiki page ;)  that's why it scared me.
00:21.24rwhitbyEleaf: asking questions here that are answered in the wiki will only get people irritated at you.
00:21.43Eleafwell I didn't know there was a wiki page.
00:21.53EleafBecause when I tried to go to it, it just looked like a squeeze page.
00:22.10Eleafit's more fun talking to people
00:22.11LuitvDmust be lists.openmoko.org then :P
00:22.20Eleafyea
00:22.33Eleaferr, maybe not
00:22.47rwhitbyEleaf: so you think everyone of the thousands of new people finding out about openmoko should come here and ask the same FAQ questions every time?
00:22.58LuitvD:P
00:23.12LuitvDEleaf: start there >> wiki.openmoko.org
00:23.22EleafLuitvD, I have been
00:23.31Eleafrwhitby, maybe
00:24.37LuitvDEleaf: I guess that if everybody who wanted to know something about the project that has already been documented and still asks on the IRC channel, we won't have any time left to discuss some more serious things about this project
00:24.56Eleafthen just link to the wiki page
00:25.10LuitvDEleaf: we do... look at the channel topic ;)
00:25.32EleafIt just says wiki, but not a link..
00:25.39rwhitbysigh
00:25.45EleafMost people don't look at long topics anyways, but I'm not arguing anything here.
00:26.03natetruelots of clients truncate long topics
00:26.14natetrue...but this channel's topic is by far the shortest i've seen lately
00:26.43rwhitbyoh good, Harald just confirmed they have a full time developer working on qemu to get an emulator for the neo
00:26.45Eleafokay..
00:26.45LuitvDnatetrue: yeah...
00:26.56CIA-7openmoko: 03laforge * r1047 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-s3c2410-nand.patch: add nand pagesize definition
00:27.08Eleafbut there isn't a link to the wiki... doesn't matter.
00:27.22LuitvDrwhitby: i heard jannu had it running already :)
00:27.51Eleafthat's pretty darn cool though
00:28.29rwhitbyLuitvD: did you get the mokomakefile build to complete?
00:28.40LuitvDnot me...
00:28.51LuitvDmy desktop kernel was too unstable somehow :P
00:29.02LuitvDright now I'm running a fresh Ubuntu installation
00:29.24LuitvDrwhitby: but I guess jannu did complete the mokomakefile, for qemuarm ...
00:30.00LuitvDrwhitby: he told me he'd upload it soon... the images...
00:30.18LuitvDrwhitby: and I guess he'll announce it on one of the lists
00:30.30LuitvDrwhitby: not sure which
00:32.38rwhitbyLaF0rge: any possibility of getting svn://svn.projects.openmoko.org to accept connections?  and the viewcvs there to show the project repos?
00:33.20LuitvDhmm, does anybody know the hardware diffrences between p0 and p1 devices?
00:33.27CIA-7openmoko: 03mickey * r1048 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-mainmenu/ (configure.ac src/Makefile.am src/mokodesktop.h): openmoko-mainmenu: make it build. See #184 and please ACT ASAP!
00:33.46rwhitbynight mickey|zzZZzz
00:33.50mickey|zzZZzzg'night
00:34.12rwhitbyLuitvD: I doubt there would be any differences, given the short time-frame between p0 and p1.
00:34.17LuitvDaargh, still hate it that I can't apply for google SoC
00:34.40LuitvDrwhitby: a month time is short? how many devices will be produced? :S
00:35.35rwhitbya month time is very short to change a production line setup and test a new hardware revision and change the software to match
00:35.48CIA-7openmoko: 03mickey * r1049 10/trunk/oe/packages/openmoko-apps/openmoko-mainmenu_svn.bb: oe/openmoko-apps: openmoko-mainmenu depends on libmatchbox. See #184
00:36.19LuitvDmickey|zzZZzz: updating in your sleep? :P
00:37.29rwhitbysome people say prayers, some people commit their day's work ...
00:37.37LuitvDlol
00:37.52LuitvDI prefer the second one...
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00:44.54LuitvDwhy on earth isn't the flash rom directly connected to IO_3v3? :S
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01:00.11LuitvDbye
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01:07.56jebbaok. i got openmoko qemuarm emulation going with mouse (more or less) and 480x640 video...  r1004
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01:13.35accumulatorthanks for r1049
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01:37.22jebbaftp://ftp.blagblagblag.org/pub/BLAG/developers/jebba/openmoko/qemu-r1004            <-- qemu images
01:38.00fluffsgoodnight all
01:42.34maydaytxcool, jebba
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01:48.08fabshi all
01:49.01fabsI am just starting linux dev, how can I get the FIC Neo1973
01:49.21jebbafabs, see /topic
01:49.57fabsjebba: ops, sorry
01:50.10fabscan u direct me to the right place?
01:50.26orospakropenmoko.org, I think. ;)
01:50.34SpeedEvil$350, late march.
01:50.57fabsworldwide?
01:51.01jaebirdjebba: is X supposed to start with your images?
01:51.04SpeedEvilyes
01:51.06SpeedEvilto anyone
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01:51.16fabsorospakr: thanks, been there and read the wiki ;)
01:51.29fabsSpeedEvil: superb, thanks
01:51.43fabsopenmoko is the distro used isn't it?
01:52.41fabsI mean, is it based on some other existing stuff, say Debian or else?
01:52.51pjzorospakr: I think the only difference will be software, not hardware
01:53.44orospakrpjz: I asked that question before, and someone thought the hardware would be different.
01:53.45orospakrbut they may not have actually known anything...
01:55.35jebbajaebird, what do you mean "with your images"?  It's basically matchbox, with rxvt starting first.
01:55.59jaebirdjebba: ok X started...I had to delete the .X0* file in the tmp dir...it is rotated 90 degrees
01:56.17jebbaah, ya. It /is/ rotated.  And so is my LCD next to me.
01:56.25jaebird:)
01:56.26jebbasee:  /etc/X11/Xserver
01:57.12jaebirdno mouse cursor...right?
01:58.43loufoquejebba: could you write a tutorial explaining how to emulate the neo1973 ?
01:58.46jbnetorospakr: I have the same problem :(... I figure I'll wait a couple weeks to see if there are any major problems and grab the Phase 1 version
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02:00.22jebbajaebird, jbnet ya, you can't see it, but it's there.  I updated the README slightly.
02:00.39jebbai'm more interested in getting a current image built, then will do more of a writeup.
02:00.51orospakrjebba: hm, I just tried out your qemu images, and same here, no X.
02:00.56jebbayou can see the cursor under rxvt, for example.
02:01.01jaebirdjebba: thanks for making this
02:01.06orospakryeah, thanks. :)
02:01.21jaebirdorospakr: go delete the /tmp/.X0* file
02:01.35jebbaah, lemme fix that then ;)
02:01.44orospakrjaebird: done. how do I restart X?
02:02.08jaebirdI restarted my qemu since `reboot` did not work :)
02:02.24jaebirdstartx also did not work for me
02:02.25orospakr`sync` && x button in the corner ;)
02:02.51jaebird:)
02:03.08orospakrI wonder what kind of ARM box qemu is emulating.
02:03.18orospakrit's not like there's a standard or anything.
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02:04.07orospakrwell, X is running, and I have a sideways terminal.
02:04.39orospakrooh, and there's the desktop.
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02:06.29toxic_hi, quick question, is it possible using ARM ASM in openmoko
02:06.42orospakrI'd imagine so.
02:06.48orospakrdo you mean regular gcc inline asm?
02:07.28toxic_orospakr: no, pure asm files
02:07.39toxic_maybe compiled using gas or something like that
02:07.47orospakryeah, I'm sure you can.
02:07.52orospakrbut that's all I know.
02:08.14toxic_orospakr: thanks  anyway
02:08.20orospakrsorry.
02:08.23jebba<PROTECTED>
02:08.34jebbato kill X you ctrl-alt-del   :)
02:08.57orospakrjebba: I gather you have to do some incantation at the qemu monitor to do ctrl-alt-del. ;)
02:08.59toxic_orospakr: it's fine - another thing, is gcc on the device or there is the need of cross compilation?
02:09.14orospakrI'd imagine the latter.
02:09.17orospakrtoolchains are huge.
02:09.53jebbaorospakr, if qemu has focus, it grabs it. Just make sure you're in the window ;)  
02:10.04orospakrright. :D
02:10.19toxic_orospakr: that's cool, thanks.
02:11.08jebbanote this image is from an older revision, not the current svn...
02:18.39jebbajaebird, i put one up there that shouldn't have a lockfile in it already ;)
02:18.52jaebirdok...thanks
02:20.35jaebirdjebba: no vi?
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02:21.19jebbajaebird, ya, it has vi.  no vim tho
02:21.37jaebirdweird version tho..
02:21.49jebbai think it's the busybox version
02:22.21jaebirdlooking for @270
02:23.38jebbain /etc/X11/Xserver  under ARM section
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02:32.49rwhitbyjebba: do you want to use the latest MokoMakefile to build the latest image?
02:35.19jebbarwhitby, ha. i just started it manually, but if you have a Makefile I'll do it :)
02:36.07jebbarwhitby, is it up anywhere? I checked earlier @ projects and i don't see it on your personal site.
02:36.09rwhitbyjebba: what's your projects.openmoko.org username?
02:36.19jebbauh, jebba if I got one ;)
02:36.32rwhitby(anon svn isn't working there yet, so I'll make you a mokomakefile dev)
02:37.21jebbaok, gimme a minute to get an acct
02:38.58rwhitbyadded you
02:39.21rwhitbyupload your ssh key, and checkout mokomakefile trunk with svn+ssh (it might take an hour for your ssh key to be recognised)
02:44.14jebbaok, can you just mail it to me or something in the interim so i can get the build started?  moe@blagblagblag.org
02:47.35loufoquewhat does projects.openmoko.org use CVS and not SVN like openmoko itself?
02:47.38jebbamy key is up there...awaiting cron....   /me goes to food
02:47.39loufoquewhy*
02:47.55jebbait is using svn (perhaps both)
02:56.45rwhitbyloufoque: it can use both - I'm using svn
02:57.14rwhitbyjebba: the new Makefile gets the patches from there, so it's easier just to wait
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03:14.03PasqualeBF_good evening all.
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03:36.59xkr47Elrond, I think adding categories could maybe be flagged as "minor edit".. :)
03:37.56natetruewhoa mokomakefile is still going
03:37.59natetruei'd forgotten about it!
03:39.26xkr47that's linux!
04:01.12jebbarwhitby, Checked out revision 8
04:01.55rwhitbyjebba: give that one a go - I tested it on 1041, but mickey|zzZZzz has checked in some more stuff since then and I haven't done a new build yet.
04:02.49rwhitbyjebba: Feel free to check in any fixes required to get it to build latest.
04:07.01alorilnice, wifi? was tripped automatically twice and both in right context
04:08.02alorilrwhitby: thanks for mokomakefile, finished now here (it fixed some problems automatically, wiki had some, I fixed rest)
04:08.29rwhitbyaloril: great.
04:09.13alorilarm-linux-gcc: /usr/local/src/htmlpp: No such file or directory
04:09.26alorilfor rxvt-unicode-7.9-r0
04:09.57aloril(fixed by editing Makefile and removing last part of ...aging/arm-linux/lib -lXpm -lX11   /usr/local/src/htmlpp )
04:09.57jebbaaloril, i didn't have a problem with rxvt but i do remember someone mentioning issues with it....
04:12.05alorilconfig.log had this: PERLLIB='/usr/local/src/htmlpp'
04:16.15alorillast 2 nick count records: 261 2007-02-16; 263 2007-02-19
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04:35.24jebbarwhitby, build 200702200115: completed
04:35.47rwhitbythat was quick
04:35.59rwhitbywhat rebuilt?
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04:36.49rwhitby(note that mokomakefile currently removes all the SRCDATE="now" stuff to stop everything rebuilding every time, but that might cause some things not to rebuild if the moko folks have not updated PRs.
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04:45.52jebbarwhitby,  openmoko-devel-image-qemuarm-20070220041540.rootfs.*     Not much directly rebuilt with the makefile (a few openmoko-*) as I had been running a `bitbake openmoko-devel-image` while waiting for makefile svn (and I had already resync'd to oe/om).
04:46.12rwhitbynod
04:46.22jebbaya, I saw that patch. I didn't get why it was there (SRCDATE), but now it make sense. Seems like that may come bite us sometime though.
04:47.11rwhitbyyeah, I'm not sure how to handle that yet.  We definitely don't want to rebuild everything every time, but we do want have a way to force the rebuild of all that stuff that they set to "now"
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05:08.57CIA-7openmoko: 03werner * r1050 10/ (6 files in 2 dirs): Experimental splash screen support.
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05:31.53jebbaok newer image,  ftp://ftp.blagblagblag.org/pub/blag/developers/jebba/openmoko/qemu-r1049/  
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06:01.08dottedmagHeh. Where do I put bugs related to the openmoko sites? bugzilla does not seem to contain 'infrastructure' project or component.
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06:13.17LetoTojebba: cool.
06:13.24LetoToexcept for the sideways display :)
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06:52.22rwhitbyjebba: what version of qemu are you using?
06:52.33rwhitby(and is there a pre-packaged deb for debian etch?)
07:01.06jebbaI am currently running 0.9.0 (just released a couple weeks ago) on my "fc6" laptop.  The debian-etch buildbox has qemu 0.8.2 (apt-get install qemu...), which I believe is fine for this.
07:01.33jebbarwhitby
07:01.53rwhitbysweet, installing that now
07:06.56dottedmagrwhitby: 0.9 is in debian experimental
07:11.55dirakx<PROTECTED>
07:12.27CIA-7openmoko: 03rwhitby * r9 10mokomakefile/trunk/patches/openmoko-HEAD/openmoko-mainmenu.patch: Refreshed the openmoko-mainmenu patch - it still requires the -lmb: addition
07:14.14alorilah, "-M versatilepb" was that magic missing thing ..
07:18.32rwhitbyjebba: know any keybindings to make up for the lack of a visible mouse?
07:21.19rwhitbyAha - Alt-F4 exits an app.
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07:24.45rwhitbyhey koen
07:26.22rwhitbyPaavo: spill ...
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07:27.26PaavoDidn't have the chance to try any of the software, but the device felt nice in your hand. Sturdy. Not too big.
07:27.31tigertmorng
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07:29.48glm2kone question i have is ... what's with the "handle" like thingie at the bottom?
07:29.59tigertthe loop?
07:30.04glm2kyou don't need a loop that big do you?
07:30.17tigertever seen asian people with cellphones?
07:30.22tigertneck strap goes there :)
07:30.24glm2kunless there's an antenna there i dunno about ...
07:30.27glm2kaahh
07:30.28glm2klol
07:30.31tigertthere is an antenna too
07:30.31glm2kfigures
07:30.44glm2klooks sturdy enough to hang oneself from
07:31.07glm2k...bad joke but the japs seem the have that demographic cornered ...
07:31.28tigertthose phone straps are coming..
07:31.35tigertwe have the cellphone jewelry now too
07:31.39glm2kwow
07:31.40tigertthat was hot in 1999
07:31.42tigertin korea
07:31.54tigertwe totally follow asia in this crap
07:31.55glm2kum, do we have any female hackers here to try them on? ;)
07:32.04glm2kcuz i'm not ... :D
07:32.39tigertI am sure there are "dude" versions too
07:32.39glm2kwell, it's lost on me
07:32.59glm2keven while i was working in asia, i never went for eyecandy...if it fit in my pocket it's the model i bought
07:33.27tigerta friend lives on tokyo
07:33.33tigerthe has ~2 hour commute to work
07:33.43tigertthe cellphone is his communication device
07:33.49tigerthe does mail etc there on the train
07:33.52tigertchat etcetera
07:33.59tigertyou dont keep your phone much in your pocket :)
07:34.07glm2khehe, agreed
07:34.20tigertand thus the neck strap does make a lot of sense in that kind of situation
07:34.27tigertits there when you need it
07:36.19glm2kcan't wait for march
07:36.34CMIt's fun to see 50 year old business men in japan take out their phone from the suit pockets and it has a big pile of hello kitty and furry trolls and stuff hanging from it :)
07:36.40tigertyep
07:36.51tigertthat stuff is not just for girls there
07:36.54glm2khaven't been this excited since buying an ipaq years ago...just to run linux on
07:37.00tigertglm2k: :)
07:37.05tigertthe device is cute
07:37.08glm2ki saw
07:37.09Harlekin23hehe
07:37.20glm2kanyone with a black/silver graphic?
07:37.23Harlekin23japanese girly style
07:37.26glm2kfor comparison?
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07:46.15koenhey rwhitby
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07:50.55alorilCM: its nice that people have started to put comment by default too (Buying_Interest_List)
07:51.25CMaloril: Yes, nice to know what people are interested in doing :)
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08:11.07CIA-7openmoko: 03werner * r1051 10/developers/werner/splash/imghs.pl: Raw framebuffer image converter, with HWSWP enabled
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08:52.56ElrondIs the wiki a bit slowish just now?
08:53.25Elrond(specifically the "recent changes" page)
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08:56.22koenElrond: it seems that way
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09:01.47koenI wonder if the fix designers realize that pixels are atomic
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09:05.25koen10.329 is not 10 1/3 pixels, but a coordinate!
09:05.42Harlekinyeah, since a good gui is not pixel based
09:05.48Harlekinbut point based
09:06.47Kacoand rendered with subpixel accuracy?
09:07.03Harlekinand the question is, to which pixel does 10.329 map
09:07.10rwhitby(X.Y, WxH)
09:07.10Harlekinwhich is depending on the dpi
09:07.13Harlekinand res
09:07.42Harlekinat least a modern UI _should_ be that way
09:08.50Harlekinbut in this image
09:08.55Harlekin10.329 might mean
09:08.58Harlekinx 10 y 329
09:09.20Harlekinor it pretty sure does
09:09.36Harlekinbut still might be point based, not pixel based
09:09.37Harlekin.-)
09:09.43Harlekinbut I doubt that
09:10.13Harlekin:-)
09:10.28Harlekineuropean?
09:11.13Harlekinanyway, how far is gtk+ regarding resolution independence?
09:13.52Kacoanyway yes it might be european
09:14.03Kacohmm but wait it's not :)
09:14.17Kaco'.' is being used as thousands separator
09:14.25Kacolike 10.000,00
09:14.28Kacothat is 10 thousand
09:14.40Kacocoordinates are always with ','
09:14.53Harlekini ment if koen is
09:15.00Kacolol
09:15.04Kacono idea, but i am :)
09:15.09Harlekinsince in europe you would use , or ;
09:15.13Kacoyeah
09:15.38Harlekinisn't the mockup designer in asia?
09:15.41Harlekinchinese?
09:15.49Kacotaiwanese?
09:16.03Harlekinif you talk to a chinese there is no difference
09:16.05Harlekin*g*
09:16.10Kacoactually no
09:16.14Kacoi spent one year in asia
09:16.23Kacothey're all different .. be it korean, japanese, chinese, vietnames
09:16.26Harlekinthat was a "political" remark
09:16.29Kacohaha
09:16.29Kacook
09:17.12Harlekinsince the "peoples republic" of china does not accept Taiwan as a state
09:17.23Kacoyeah damn those communists :-D
09:17.30Kacosame for hong kong
09:17.39Harlekinthose with the wildest capitalism you can imagine
09:17.42Harlekin:-)
09:18.05Kacohehe the strangest kind of communists
09:18.10Kacomoney changed them ;-)
09:18.30Kacobut still better than those real in north korea
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09:22.31koenHarlekin: shall we normalize the coords and take a bet how long it takes for the designers figure it out?
09:22.54eugeneKaco: there are some chinese in this channel, i.e. me :)
09:23.43Kacoeugene, but you're not in government right? :)
09:23.52eugeneKaco: lol :)
09:23.56Kacoeugene, anyway I know what I am speaking about...
09:24.07Kacoeugene, we were controlled by russians and had communism till 1989
09:24.16Kacoeugene, then we kicked them out :)
09:24.20eugenehehe
09:24.39Kacomaybe you heard of slovakia (or czechoslovakia) in europe
09:24.45eugeneyes
09:24.49Kacook
09:25.13Kacowell i guess it's not that bad in china, except so called freespeech
09:25.23eugenehehe, true, very true.
09:25.26Kaco:)
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09:25.49Harlekin23ups, my ISP just upgraded my dsl connection
09:26.00KacoHarlekin23, increased speed? :)
09:26.13Harlekinyes
09:26.28Harlekinnow 17690/1183
09:26.39Kacowtf? :)
09:26.40Kaconot bad
09:26.45Kacoi'm on 1024/256
09:26.52eugene...
09:26.57XorAonly 512/224 here
09:27.00XorA:-(
09:27.07eugenei'm only 512/128
09:27.09eugene...
09:27.10Kacohmm max with DSL here is probably 2048
09:27.18koen1M/128 iirc here
09:27.26Kacowhen i was in korea i was on 70000/15000
09:27.30Kacoat home :)
09:27.49Kacoand it was really cheap ... i wish i can get it here
09:27.58Harlekinespecially 1 mbit upload is nice for video conferencing
09:28.09Kacoyeah
09:28.17Kaco256 upload sometimes sucks even for Skype
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09:29.52LuitvDhello there
09:29.55PsiKaco, was that 70mbit/15mbit?
09:30.47LuitvD:o
09:30.51LuitvDkoen: how?
09:31.08koenLuitvD: by living on campus
09:31.18LuitvDah, nice :)
09:31.38LuitvDkoen: a friend of mine has 10M/10M at home :)
09:31.43KacoPsi, yes :)
09:31.45Psii just upgraded to 4.6mbit/700kbit   from 1mbit/256kbit
09:32.17KacoPsi, every apartment there had such connection ... in fact this was minimal available
09:32.33Psiheh
09:33.06Kacofor $10/mo
09:33.22Psinice
09:33.24Kacousually it was part of rent
09:33.51Kacowell south korea is the most wired country in the world ... around 70% of people have broadband at home
09:34.28Kacoi'm wondering if Neo1973 will work there, since they're not using GSM
09:34.43Kacobut CDMA, but that is what they've got in US too right?
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09:34.54Kacois Neo GSM/CDMA?
09:35.00mjrneo1973 is gsm-only
09:35.05Kacoso no US?
09:35.38Kacoonly europe/asia?
09:35.38mjrUS has two large GSM providers plus a load of smaller ones, from what I've heard
09:35.39Kacoah ok
09:36.02mjrAT&T / Cingular and T-mobile were the names, I think
09:36.13Kacohm Cingular ... so iPhone is GSM too? :)
09:36.14LuitvDT-mobile i'm certain about :P
09:36.23Kacoyes t-mobile is GSM, even in my country
09:36.51HarlekinKaco: iPhone is GSM (us version
09:36.53Harlekin)
09:37.01LuitvDKaco: in all of europe T-Mobile is GSM (+ 3G in some places)
09:37.13mjrso then you can use it in their network; no fancy 3G, but the first neo doesn't do 3G anyway
09:37.30Harlekinwho is their
09:37.36LuitvDall network carriers in the netherlands do GSM and GPRS :)
09:37.36Kacook
09:37.38mjrT-Mobile, apparently
09:37.42Harlekin3g is not that wide spread in the US
09:37.53Kacowe've got 3G here
09:37.59LuitvDKaco: where?
09:38.03Kacoand even that faster .... was it HDSPA? HDSCA?
09:38.05KacoSlovakia
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09:38.12LuitvDNL has about 50% coverage of HSDPA
09:38.13HarlekinKaco: 2.5G
09:38.29LuitvDHarlekin: no, 3,5G
09:38.33Kaco:-D
09:38.35LuitvDhsdpa is 3,5G
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09:38.43HarlekinLuitvD: ups. yes
09:38.44Kacowell i'm not using it, i would prefer if Neo had wifi :)
09:38.51LuitvD:P
09:39.09LuitvDhmm, script doesn't trigger...
09:39.18HarlekinLuitvD: was thinking about EDGE
09:39.27LuitvDHarlekin: ah :P
09:39.42Harlekinwas somehow still in the iPhone context
09:39.54LuitvDshame on you :)
09:40.13Harlekinyeah, real life sometimes interferes
09:40.37floriangood morning
09:41.31LuitvDbluh, I hope my PDA and cellphone are still worth some money...
09:41.47LuitvDgoing to sell both and buy a Neo ASAP
09:42.22HarlekinLuitvD: so you do not need a reliable phone?
09:42.58zooloochi folks, is the Neo already available? Do you insider guys know when a Wifi + BT enabled version will hit the market?
09:42.58alorilWhen version 1 was designed there was no sufficiently low-power WiFi chip available which has an open driver. You can attach (battery) powered USB hub to Neo1973 and then use supported WiFi USB stick. For more information see http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/InternetAccess
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09:44.12Kacoaloril, that will work, but it's not very convinient
09:44.35Harlekinand probably not very mobile
09:44.38aloril2counter?
09:44.38alorilsource: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; a week, 2 days 02:15:21 (3.094 - 9.094 days) for devices for selected developers (2007-02-28);  a month, a week, 2 days (25.094 - 40.094 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-31);  7 months, a week, 2 days (193.094 - 223.094 days) for mass market (2007-09-30): see topic for more info (366)
09:44.44Psizoolooc, im pretty sure they said they plan to keep the current distribution cycle, so, following the current one, you should be able to buy the next neo model march 11th 2008
09:45.25Psithats a pretty big extrapolation tho, there are many factors to consider
09:45.25zooloocalright, thanks Psi
09:45.47aloril2about wifi version: either september or next year (guesses)
09:45.58Psiyeah
09:46.03zooloocguess so.. I hope that openmoko will be usable on other pda-phones, too
09:46.22zooloocwhat open-source GPS app is supposed to be used?
09:46.35zooloochow is the map material situation?
09:46.45Psino idea
09:46.46d0tslash[x] openstreetmap
09:46.54tigertthe young man is asking tough questions :)
09:46.59Psiheh
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09:48.04d0tslashzoolooc: and gpsdrive was available for zaurus too. it might work as well. and it also supports openstreetmap data in newer versions afaik
09:48.12koenheh
09:48.18koengpsdrive suckls donkey ass
09:48.25koenI wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole
09:48.37tigertmaemomapper would fit nicely I guess
09:48.38d0tslashkoen: yeah, but do you have a better one? :>
09:48.39tigertits nice and small
09:48.48koenand I know of no sane person that wants to work on it after seeing the source
09:48.52koend0tslash: yes, maemo-mapper
09:49.00d0tslashi have seen the source when i tried to fix some bug ...
09:49.07d0tslashi was ... shocked
09:49.12d0tslashbut it works after all O_o
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09:50.09d0tslashthanks for the hint, i'll have a look at maemomapper ..
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09:52.10LuitvDHarlekin: reliable? what do you mean reliable? Everything I run has open-source software in beta-testing fase...
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09:52.35HarlekinLuitvD: you might want to consider to keep your other phone while doing development on the neo
09:53.49LuitvDHarlekin: I'm not going to develop my own kernel or gsmd... so I guess it'll always be able to make a phone call...
09:53.50aloril2phase 2 phone probably has some hardware changes from phase 1, but don't know if those changes will include wifi; also developers byuing phase 1 phone will get discount
09:53.56tigertLuitvD: if you hack something, there will be times when it won't boot or such
09:54.22LuitvDaloril2: what kind of discount? :O
09:54.30koen"rm /sbin/init" oopos
09:54.36koen-o
09:54.58LuitvDhaveing both p1 and a p2 device would be nice :)
09:55.21koenwhat's the difference between those?
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09:55.25LuitvDtigert: if I hack the wrong something then I won't be able to boot...
09:55.41LuitvDkoen: what aloril2 said...
09:55.46aloril2LuitvD: that was not specified
09:56.00LuitvDkoen: a possible difference...
09:56.13LuitvDkoen: if the p2 device has wifi, I'd love to have that one too :P
09:56.20koenLuitvD: maybe a small board layout change, that's it
09:56.22koenno wifi
09:56.27LuitvDah, okay
09:56.48Psiyeah, id be very surprised if they added wifi to p2
09:56.55LuitvDme too :)
09:56.57koenadded *anything*
09:57.24Psithere was something about a external jtag connector that i read somewhere
09:57.32koenthat's in p0 as well
09:57.41hrwfrom recent mails it looks like they will add few i2c pins available
09:57.53LuitvDanyways, I'm off to install linux on a friend's computer
09:57.55LuitvDbye all
09:58.00Psiisnt p0 jtag an internal connector?
10:00.45koenyes
10:00.58koenbut why on earth would FIC make it external?
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10:01.28Psii can imagine that undoing the phone every time you want to use jtag might be quite annoying
10:01.48koenhow many times do you want to use jtag?
10:01.56vmasteryou wont have to use JTAG very often unless you're working on the bootloader
10:02.04*** join/#openmoko parag0n (n=parag0n@popeshoe.gotadsl.co.uk)
10:02.15vmasteror maybe some linux driver development
10:02.28hrwvmaster: even bootloader can be tested inside of bootloader
10:02.38Psiisn't jtag also used for general debugging of applications?
10:02.49vmasterPsi: no, you can use gdbserver for that
10:02.49hrwvmaster: you can load uboot into ram, jump to it from uboot/flash and do testing
10:02.50koenPsi: no, that's gdb
10:02.52mjraloril2, IIRC it's been clear enough that phase 2 may change a bit (though I also doubt very much there will be large changes like wifi)
10:02.52aloril2if hardware is same in p2 than p1, why would you needto buy new? just reflash new software ;-)
10:02.55Psiah, ok
10:03.30Psifair enough then
10:03.30vmasterhrw: well, if I have JTAG available I would use it for bootloader development, as it makes things easier, but that's probably a matter of personal taste
10:04.06hrwvmaster: I wonder why people likes to work on bootloaders... if it works dont fix it
10:04.12LunvedI'm trying to run openmoko under xoo, but it looks for openmoko-footer which doesn't exist
10:04.21XorAhrw: s/fix/broke/
10:04.26LunvedDoes this mean I need to do a native build?
10:04.28mjranyway as said I'll probably buy p2 too so I'll use that and my SO will get my p1 and we'll be able to use all the nifty communications apps that you guys have developed at that point ;)
10:04.50vmasterkoen: that never worked afaik
10:05.22hrwmjr: what about p0/p1/p2 collecting?
10:05.33LunvedIf so, does a native build mean setting MACHINE=x86?
10:05.37koenvmaster: oh well, I managed to avoid bricking stuff the past 4 years, so I'll manage it another few years from now as well :)
10:06.21vmasterkoen: heh, yeah, but with the number of developers openmoko is attracting i believe it's quite likely that at least some of them manage to brick their phone
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10:07.01Psii agree
10:07.02koenvmaster: the people on the mailing seem capable of bricking their precious emulator
10:07.33mjrhrw, yes well. Not getting a p0 *snif*. I'll have to buy one used it seems...
10:07.59koenXorA: part0!
10:08.38hrwright, part0 - because why waste it
10:09.07vmasterhehehe
10:09.56koenhrw: right, how needs a bootloader when the BIOS can boot linux just fine
10:10.02koens/how/who/
10:12.51Psigetting the 3.3v wont be easy
10:13.03Psiits not like there is an external 3.3v plug on the phone
10:13.22XorAPsi: or Vbatt -> DCDC -> 5v as thats easy
10:13.36mjrit won't be hard, since the connectors are visible when you open the back
10:13.44Psiah, do you mean, put a little dcdc inside the phone casing?
10:14.09XorAPsi: yeah, I expect someone to do the mod to get a wireless dongle running :-)
10:14.45Psilooking at the pics of inside the phone there doesn't look to be much room
10:14.59XorAPsi: it would have to be an extended back
10:15.10Psithat would work :)
10:17.19hrwXorA: you have case for neo or not?
10:17.26XorAhrw: I do
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10:17.52hrwXorA: so you can tell does it fit or how much it will not fit
10:18.27XorAhrw: there is no way it would fit with the back as is, but any plastic bender should be able to fit a new back
10:18.47XorAhrw: also note, its not the real case I have
10:18.57hrwhm I have to check dimensions of phone to compare with current one
10:19.38parag0ni'm sure theres enough room in there for a smt linear reg + thin wires
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10:34.20rwhitbyXorA: do you know what host distro the core team members such as yourself, mickey|zzZZzz and LaF0rge use?
10:34.50rwhitby(i.e. is there a "standard" host distro config that you guys have chosen)
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10:35.18fish_hi
10:35.26XorArwhitby: Im not core, I work for Wolfson, I personally use openSuSe
10:36.03rwhitbyXorA: do you know what the others use?
10:36.31hrwrwhitby: debian
10:37.02XorArwhitby: I beleive mickey|zzZZzz is a Mandriva man
10:37.23robtaylorrwhitby: as in you're thinking of making one?
10:37.45rwhitbyrobtaylor: gathering info to see whether it is possible to converge on one.
10:38.08XorArwhitby: the easieast way to do it would be a debian chrootable/vmwareable image
10:38.17rwhitby(i.e. there is no point in making one if it's not the same as the majority of the core devs are using)
10:38.19robtaylorrwhitby: i was actually going to look at doing a vmware/livecd developers environ today
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10:39.23robtaylorrwhitby: really, it doesnt matter
10:39.34robtaylorrwhitby: oe isn;t very distro-dependant
10:39.56rwhitbyrobtaylor: I'm thinking things like software like on this page, not OE: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Debug_Board
10:40.00robtaylorand everyone just uses terminal windows and vim :)
10:40.19rwhitbyi.e. making sure it has the right ftdi drivers and stuff.
10:41.42rwhitbyand qemu, and xoo, ....
10:41.47*** part/#openmoko pengwen (n=pengwen@156.80-203-38.nextgentel.com)
10:43.18rwhitbyand openocd
10:44.58rwhitbyor at least have all those things buildable natively (with the right configurations and patches) in OE ...
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10:51.20robtaylorrwhitby: but... noone's going to be using the debug boards
10:52.30robtaylorrwhitby: i'd vote debian or ubuntu. I can always package the tools up as and when they're neede
10:52.33robtaylord
10:52.39rwhitbyrobtaylor: all phase0 devs get a debug board apparently
10:52.59robtayloroh, thats a new one to me :)
10:53.02rwhitbyrobtaylor: I use Debian Etch here
10:53.39robtayloryeah, etch is probably the right thing.
10:54.34rwhitbyrobtaylor: on openmoko-devel, I asked Werner "Is a debug v2 board included in the Phase 0 dev package?" and the response was "Yep. It'll be optional for phase 1, though."
10:54.36robtaylorrwhitby: any good at packaging? :)
10:55.05rwhitbyrobtaylor: I use VMWare with Debian for all my development, but have never tried to package anything ...
10:55.33robtaylorrwhitby: ok, i'll get openocd and ftdi packaged up then
10:55.48robtaylorif noone's already done it
10:58.10rwhitbythey are packaged, but need bleeding edge patches it seems.
10:59.50robtaylorrwhitby: already in etch?
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11:01.19robtaylorrwhitby: where's the packaging you've seen?
11:01.38rwhitbyhttp://people.openmoko.org/laforge/dpkg
11:03.09robtaylorcool
11:03.46robtaylorhmm, badly packaged, actually :/
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11:45.28Genesis_yo
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11:49.02rastercrapola there are a lot of peeps in here
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11:56.01Genesis_thanks to put photo of the neo without case
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12:06.44Magondoes anyone had problems with intltool and openmoko-dates package?
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12:39.50tigertrobtaylor: I wonder if openmoko could run on scratchbox?
12:41.59robtaylortigert: why would you want to do that?
12:42.46robtaylortigert: OE's the build environment, so there's not much point in using sb
12:43.08tigertrobtaylor: to use my existing sbox :)
12:43.11robtaylor(and OE is a lot nicer a build env than sb ;)
12:43.56robtaylortigert: its a bit like asking about building linux without gmake
12:44.15tigert:)
12:44.24tigertI tried building emacs on IRIX
12:44.25tigertonce.
12:44.39robtaylorindeed =)
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13:23.43Fletchcounter
13:23.43alorilP0: a week, a day 22:36:16 (2.942 - 8.942 days);  P1: 24.942 - 39.942;  P2: 192.942 - 222.942 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (367)
13:24.45SpeedEvilA week is a long time in politics.
13:24.59SpeedEvils/po/p0/
13:25.37xkr4739.942 would suit me perfectly
13:25.51SpeedEvil?
13:25.55koennot 39.963?
13:26.07xkr47certainly not!!
13:26.08xkr47:)
13:26.25xkr47I'm busy with moving to a new flat in march so.. :)
13:26.32xkr47better not have any distractions :)
13:26.42SpeedEvilAh.
13:27.59andreravas a regular consumer not afraid to hack, should I buy an openmoko now or wait?
13:28.17eugene0/j #linux.conf.au
13:29.15xkr47andrerav, it's like asking an investor whether to invest :)
13:29.30andreravhm :)
13:29.30xkr47INVEST!! is the only answer you can get :)
13:29.42andreravyou got one?
13:29.52xkr47in 39.9 days yes
13:29.57xkr47not yet
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13:36.18SpeedEvilxkr47: I'm editing the 1-wire suggestion - USB is high power and there isn't a spare port in the phone. I2C is daisy-chainable. Adding 1-wire suggestion (as one app of an externally accessible I2C bus)
13:37.34xkr47so there is i2c-to-1wire also ?
13:38.06XorAcareful with that i2c bus
13:38.25xkr47SpeedEvil, thanks.. it was just an idea after all.. 1wire has some nice easily usable, quite small parts that can be used for a lot of stuff
13:38.37xkr47XorA, elaborate ?
13:39.14XorAxkr47: remeber that the chips internally are controlled, so dont fsck the bus or the phone will cease to work/damage itself in interesting ways
13:40.36SpeedEvil1 wire has lots of nice small parts.
13:40.36xkr47yeah.. some diodes etc should be placed on the 1wire side to protect the stuff
13:40.36SpeedEvilBut the interface chips are quite large.
13:40.45SpeedEvilIt'd make more sense to bring out I2C, if possible, and use an I2C - 1-wire bridge.
13:40.53xkr47SpeedEvil, is 10x15mm too large?
13:41.10xkr47SpeedEvil, I was more thinking of fitting it inside somewhere..
13:41.15xkr47at least the temperature sensor
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13:41.26SpeedEvilCompared to 1*2mm for a stand-alone I2C sensor, yes.
13:41.46xkr47the ds1820 is quite reactive and certainly would beat the current nokia temperature meter which is ~5-10 degrees off :)
13:41.48SpeedEvilWhich does not need an interface chip, and just sticks on to the I2C bus somewhere.
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13:42.13xkr47SpeedEvil, I'm not into i2c, sounds from you like there are temp sensors already directly for i2c..
13:42.20SpeedEvilYes.
13:42.37SpeedEvilAlso I2C - 1wire bridges.
13:42.50xkr47but I think XorA's point is valid.. some protection is needed if i2c is going out from the phone
13:43.32xkr47SpeedEvil, thanks for updating the article :)
13:43.42xkr47or if you didn't, for the discussion :)
13:44.10SpeedEvilTrue.
13:45.52xkr47how about the debug card, where does it get it's usb port from? does it take over the onboard usb port ?
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13:47.11SpeedEvilAIUI - it doesn't have one.
13:47.21SpeedEvilThe USB port is to talk to the debug board.
13:47.24daxxarAIUI?
13:47.28daxxarAs I understand it?
13:47.29SpeedEvilAs I Understand IT.
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13:47.46xkr47daxxar is fast on the keys, slow on the brain bandwidth :)
13:47.46XorAxkr47: I will also point at http://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/i2c-permit_invalid_addrs.patch and swear about chips that dont follow i2c spec
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13:48.00xkr47good point
13:48.01daxxarxkr47: xD
13:48.04daxxarTrue
13:48.15xkr47no worries, I'm like that too
13:48.20daxxarOh, can't wait for the phone.
13:48.31DukeOfURLcounter
13:48.32alorilP0: a week, a day 22:11:27 (2.925 - 8.925 days);  P1: 24.925 - 39.925;  P2: 192.925 - 222.925 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (368)
13:48.38daxxarWish I had prior experience with embedded development so I could get one of those developer-prereleases.
13:48.43SpeedEvilI'm pretty sure it was one of the people with existing hardware.
13:48.54daxxarHorrendous pain being a simple C-developer ;P
13:49.09SpeedEvilYou diddn't need embedded skills really.
13:49.15xkr47daxxar, heh
13:49.22SpeedEvilJust a sort-of-relevant history.
13:49.31daxxarHm, I recall reading something about prior embedded experience
13:49.40SpeedEvilThat's a plus, of course.
13:49.51SpeedEvilHowever, too late now.
13:50.00daxxarYepyep
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13:50.27vmasterregarding debug: I found the wiki entry for the OpenOCD with the list of known bugs - I think I fixed the libftdi initialization in revision 131, would be nice if the person who reported that bug could check if this works now
13:51.09SpeedEvil<LaF0rge> speed: there's no usb on the debug connector
13:51.17DukeOfURLWhat's the protocol between a cellphone and the BT earpiece?
13:51.30koenDukeOfURL: depends on the earpiece
13:51.30DukeOfURLIs there an IP stack on both sides?
13:51.36DukeOfURLBluetooth
13:51.38SpeedEvilIt's not IP.
13:51.40daxxarWouldn't IP be a bit overkill? :o
13:51.55koenyou can run IP over bluetooth
13:52.01DukeOfURLs/IP/ethernet/
13:52.04koenthat's what PAN and NAP do
13:52.05SpeedEvilSure - but the headsets don't.
13:52.07koenas well as BNEP
13:52.24daxxarkoen: Does that change the fact that using it for 1:1-communcation with a headset would be overkill/bloat?
13:52.32DukeOfURLIs it ethernet, or is there a different protocol?
13:52.36koennewer headsets do a2dp, no idea what older ones use
13:52.50koendaxxar: no idea
13:52.50DukeOfURLa2dp?
13:54.06XorAkoen: you dont normally run GSM over A2DP
13:54.07DukeOfURLis Bluetooth another MAC layer with discovery capabilities?
13:54.07koenXorA: a2dp is the hifi thing?
13:54.28XorAkoen: yeah, lossy comrpession running over the data link
13:54.59koenDukeOfURL: http://www.bluetooth.com/Bluetooth/Learn/
13:55.22DukeOfURLYea, I'm looking at the wikipedia now
13:55.48DukeOfURLKoen: thx
13:56.45koenman, some of my fellow students really are ignorant
13:57.19DukeOfURLhuh?
13:57.19koen"I discovered this site abread (russia I guess) with all the answer to our assignments"
13:57.25koenthe link: http://www.sm.luth.se/csee/courses/sms/028/engelska.html
13:57.32SpeedEvil...
13:57.35vmasterlol
13:57.42SpeedEvilYes, because .se means russia, you see.
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13:58.27DukeOfURLse=Singapore?
13:58.35SpeedEvil.sg
13:59.01koensweden
13:59.39xkr47se = sweden
13:59.44xkr47oops
13:59.47koenit was an example of how saying less can make you seem more intelligent
14:00.08xkr47and I did the opposite example as well
14:00.26koennah, you were just making sure :)
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14:03.45DukeOfURLSo it looks like BT has a lower media layer with 27 upper layer "profiles", one of which is a2dp
14:04.02DukeOfURLProbably a different API for each profile.
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14:11.08xkr47DukeOfURL, are you adding a2dp support to openmoko so it will be more on par with iphone ?-)
14:12.26DukeOfURLI would like to develop a headset emulator, over the USB cable as well as over BT.  This is all a learning experience for me.
14:14.05DukeOfURLthe Neo would be the headset and the PC would run the softphone program.
14:14.27DukeOfURLSo when you're at your PC you wouldn't be using GSM
14:15.24xkr47nice
14:15.27koenyou could (ab)use pulseaudio for that
14:15.45koenthat already has network capabilities and should be installed on your desktop
14:16.05koenhttp://pulseaudio.org/
14:16.11DukeOfURLlooks like the audio stream to a BT headset is 8KHz.  would that be uLaw or aLaw?
14:16.32Magonkoen: had you problems with intltool while building openmoko-date?
14:16.48koenI had, and I solved them, see bugzilla
14:16.54Magonok
14:17.08Magonthx
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14:19.15DukeOfURLI read somewhere that the Bluetooth organization tightly controls the name--that before you can say your device is BT compatible it must be blessed by the organization.  Is this true?
14:19.59DukeOfURLI remember that megabucks were involved in product certification
14:20.24koencorrect
14:20.51Magonkoen: bugzilla.openmoko.org?
14:21.09koenMagon: yes
14:21.20Magoncannot find it
14:25.00tigertcall it cyanjaws? :)
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14:49.24aloril2counter?
14:49.25alorilsource: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; a week, a day 21:10:35 (2.882 - 8.882 days) for devices for selected developers (2007-02-28);  a month, a week, a day (24.882 - 39.882 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-31);  7 months, a week, a day (192.882 - 222.882 days) for mass market (2007-09-30): see topic for more info (369)
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14:50.22aloril2a month, a week, a day and many hours for upper limit of phase 1
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14:57.42xkr47but I was pretty tired and I think it was some cvs server of some matchbox-panel-2 or so that didn't answer
14:57.48xkr47might even be my firewall blocking :P
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15:08.07SpeedEvilIf they are available early enough, they could speed up the second batch.
15:08.22SpeedEvilUnless FIC get the prediction right (or wrong the other way)
15:09.01SpeedEvilI can only afford one ATM.
15:09.09SpeedEvilI'm going to be playing with adding hardware.
15:09.55SpeedEvilI think first off is a torch, fitted next to the GPS antenna.
15:10.59SpeedEvilWhy would it brick itself then?
15:11.17xkr47SpeedEvil, maybe one of those torches with this magnetic thing - if you shake it, it generates electricity
15:11.23xkr47so you can charge your moko by shaking it :D
15:11.38xkr47SpeedEvil, I've heard my friends n800 did it just by battery discharging
15:11.50xkr47s/I've heard //
15:12.02SpeedEvilYes! Let's call it the Free Alternative Power Moko
15:12.07SpeedEvilOr FAP-Moko.
15:12.12xkr47:D
15:12.32SpeedEvilTo recap a post I made over on candlepowerforums.
15:12.35prpplagueSpeedEvil: blue or white led ?
15:12.44SpeedEvilThe arm + moko weighs a couple of kilos.
15:13.07xkr47not to mention the leg!
15:13.08SpeedEvilThe magnet moving weighs maybe 20g, or 1% of the total weight.
15:13.30LetoTono blue leds! :P
15:13.33LetoTothat are overused :)
15:13.33xkr47I think an external generator would be quite nice
15:13.35SpeedEvilThe efficiency of extracting the energy is perhaps 10% - for .1% overall efficiency.
15:13.44LetoTocan we have one of the photon led colours? :
15:13.46SpeedEvilSo to charge at .1W, you need to provide 100W.
15:13.47xkr47if anyone know any sold online, let me know :)
15:13.49SpeedEvilPersonally.
15:13.55SpeedEvilI'm going with a 1W Cree LED.
15:14.07SpeedEvilAs bright as a 4W halogen bulb.
15:14.23prpplagueSpeedEvil: interesting, wonder what the current draw is
15:14.31SpeedEvil1W, 3.?V
15:14.38SpeedEvil350mA
15:15.04prpplagueSpeedEvil: ahh had to do a double take, didn't realize you had 1W there
15:15.15prpplagueSpeedEvil: not enough coffee eyt this morning
15:15.24xkr47I have a 12V 100mA 18-led halogen-cased light
15:15.42SpeedEvilLEDs vary a hell of a lot though.
15:15.43prpplagueSpeedEvil: hehe that's more than the entire rest of our 2440 system
15:15.52xkr47I put it on my bicycle, it works great, much brighter and less power
15:16.00SpeedEvilYou can easily get 10* variations in efficiency.
15:16.15SpeedEvilThe cree is nice in that at low powers it gets even more efficient.
15:16.51PBeckhi
15:16.52SpeedEvilI'm probably wiring it across the vibrator motor, with a extra transistor.
15:16.56SpeedEvilHi.
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16:15.00LuitvDhello
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16:17.31jebbahey LuitvD.  IIRC you were asking about the qemu images yesterday. i mailed the list. They're here:  ftp://ftp.blagblagblag.org/pub/BLAG/developers/jebba/openmoko/
16:18.13LuitvDjebba: thnkx
16:18.23LuitvDthat was me :)
16:19.03xkr47I think the domain is a bit overbranded :)
16:19.04LuitvDjebba: doesn't qemu need a .img file?
16:19.27jebba.ext2 works
16:20.06LuitvDoh wait, now I see how XD
16:20.23LuitvDyeah, directly passing the ext2 file to the kernel
16:22.10LuitvDthanks a lot :)
16:22.43Magondoes anyone know how to solve intltool problem in openmoko-devel-image? i cannot find the bug in bugzilla
16:23.40LuitvDMagon: if there's no bugzilla report... then maybe it's an unknown bug?
16:24.02MagonLuitvD: koen saied that he made a bug in bugzilla
16:24.05koenor you didn't search good enough
16:24.26LuitvDlol
16:24.55LuitvDkoen: like I said... "if there is no ..." not "if you can't find a ..."
16:25.13koenhttp://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/buglist.cgi?short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&short_desc=intltool&long_desc_type=allwordssubstr&long_desc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_file_loc=&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&bug_status=RESOLVED&bug_status=VERIFIED&emailassigned_to1=1&emailtype1=substring&email1=&emailassigned_to2=1&emailreporter2=1&emailcc2=1&emailtype2=substring&email2=&bugidtype=include&bug_id=&votes=&c
16:26.09LuitvDthat's a nasty url :P
16:26.10Magoni see just first 126 bugs....why??
16:26.16Magonbtw thx
16:27.41CIA-7openmoko: 03werner * r1052 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-s3c2410-splash.patch:
16:27.41CIA-7openmoko: include/configs/neo1973.h: remove #if 1 ... #endif around video definitions
16:27.41CIA-7openmoko: common/cmd_mem.c: new command "unzip srcaddr dstaddr [dstsize]" to unzip from
16:27.42CIA-7openmoko:  memory to memory, and option CONFIG_UNZIP to enable it
16:28.47Magonkoen: my pardon....i had choosed wrong status ;-((
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16:31.25ElrondI hope werner tries to get his stuff upstream too.
16:31.27LuitvDMagon: filters, lol
16:31.54MagonLuitvD: i have not noticed that filters
16:32.16Magonbtw: simply adding intltool to dependency is not solving this
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16:33.36hrwopenmoko has too old intltool iirc for some stuff
16:34.04Magonit have 0.35_rcXX
16:34.31Magonand it is sufficent
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16:52.41_-InFeRnO-_it seems that OpenMoko is considered to be ported to Greenphone
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16:53.36CIA-7openmoko: 03thomas * r1053 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/libmokoui/moko-alignment.c:
16:53.36CIA-7openmoko: * Remove access to private parent struct
16:53.36CIA-7openmoko: * Don't set the padding in the size request. Fixes bug 186.
16:53.47LuitvD_-InFeRnO-_: it would be nice... though I'd prefer to buy the FIC-neo1973 instead of the greenphone
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16:54.10_-InFeRnO-_yes, but i find stylus and touch screen very unconfortable
16:54.18_-InFeRnO-_and VGA screen is way too big
16:54.26_-InFeRnO-_(i want to put it in my pocket)
16:54.47LuitvD(featuring WiFi and a keypad doesn't make it 2x as expensive...)
16:55.01LuitvDerr... want to fit in in your pocket? the screen is 2,8" IIRC
16:55.20_-InFeRnO-_yes but its touchscreen
16:55.24_-InFeRnO-_it's very fragile
16:55.29LuitvDnot really..
16:55.36_-InFeRnO-_i must remove it from the pocket
16:56.12LuitvDmy PDA is now being used without any extra pocket or case, and it's been that way for months
16:56.16LuitvDwithout any problems
16:56.19Stephmwtouchscreens usually mean protective membrane...oh and don't keep your keys in the same pocket
16:56.24_-InFeRnO-_at least if i want the device to live atleast 3 yrs
16:56.30LuitvD_-InFeRnO-_: and the Greenphone features a touchscreen too
16:56.43LuitvD_-InFeRnO-_: then you should treat the device well :P
16:56.48Stephmwsmartphone-class device ==> touchscreen these days
16:56.56LuitvD_-InFeRnO-_: there's a thing called "screen protector"
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16:57.07_-InFeRnO-_even so, i find keypad more familiar
16:57.20LuitvD_-InFeRnO-_: and the greenphone has a touchscreen too
16:57.22LuitvD:)
16:57.24_-InFeRnO-_yes
16:57.35LuitvDand is twice as expensive as the Neo1973
16:57.38LuitvDmore then twice
16:58.10Clintand less free
16:58.17_-InFeRnO-_yes, but a Neo1973  model with a keypad (with softkeys) and a TS protector i find very nice to have
16:58.26LuitvDand the SDK of the greenphone is another FIC Neo1973 :P
16:58.53LuitvD_-InFeRnO-_: a touchscreen protector is just a regular piece of adhesive plastic
16:59.14LuitvD_-InFeRnO-_: universal screenprotectors work on every touchscreen device you know...
16:59.20_-InFeRnO-_maybe this is the case only with IPAQ
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16:59.37_-InFeRnO-_(it says "remove device from pocket before sitting)
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17:01.07LuitvDjebba: the /etc/X11/Xserver you refer to in the README... is that in the .ext2 file?
17:03.03loufoquekoen has a weird face
17:03.33_-InFeRnO-_people are different
17:04.35LuitvD:P
17:04.43LuitvDloufoque: wth? :P
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17:06.03_-InFeRnO-_i wonder if N1973 is available in PRC
17:06.03loufoqueor maybe I just confused a tree with his ear.
17:06.09_-InFeRnO-_(FIC is taiwanese)
17:08.37Magonwhere to search for SRCDATE...just conf/site.conf or is there another location?
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17:11.51_-InFeRnO-_i'm sorry for the stupid question, but is Neo1973 made by request of OpenMoko, or by initiative of FIC
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17:19.32Elrond_-InFeRnO-_ - FIC.
17:19.52Elrond_-InFeRnO-_ - But FIC listens to the OpenMoko people for hardware design issues.
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17:22.15Elixir-So how does the OpenMoko community direct development? Is the Wiki a living design doc or is something else in use?
17:24.06SpeedEvilpretty much.
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17:24.30SpeedEvilThat, and the mailing lists.
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17:24.42SpeedEvilAnd project.openmoko.org
17:25.23SpeedEvilAt the moment - the number of devs with hardware is 4? In a weekish, it rises to 50
17:25.25Elronds/project/projects/ I think.
17:25.30SpeedEvilyeah
17:25.34SpeedEvilwell - 54
17:25.50SpeedEvilSo I expect discussion to rise at that point.
17:25.51Elixir-Is the initial run only 50 units?!
17:26.01SpeedEvilFor phase 0 developers
17:26.12SpeedEvilIn phase 1 - late march, ayone can buy.
17:26.16SpeedEvilfor $350
17:26.27SpeedEviland that'll presumably be several hundred units.
17:26.43Elixir-Yea thats when I plan on nabbing one
17:26.51SpeedEvilWith further batches if those all sell in 6 weeks.
17:27.34Elixir-I just wish GSM was cheaper here ;)
17:28.14SpeedEvilhere=?
17:28.42Elixir-Texas/USA
17:28.52SpeedEvilAh.
17:29.07SpeedEvilHere it's relatively cheap - but GPRS is still pounds/meg.
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17:32.44ElrondSpeedEvil - BTW: is the usb connector at the neo side (mini-usb-dunno) hutplug-able? Or only the side to the PC?
17:33.36ElrondElixir- - Yeah. I'd assume so too. Just want to be sure.
17:34.04ElrondFor example the device side of magellan units definitely is not hutpluggable.
17:34.04_-InFeRnO-_here (bulgaria) UMTS is 5 leva per MB
17:34.10_-InFeRnO-_5 leva = 2.5 EUR
17:34.20_-InFeRnO-_it's relatively cheap
17:34.24Elrond~change 5 leva to eur
17:34.39Elrondhoho
17:34.54Elrondapt, cluehammer yourself
17:34.59_-InFeRnO-_~change 5 bgn to eur
17:35.11_-InFeRnO-_ha ha
17:35.17Elrond*G*
17:35.30_-InFeRnO-_actually
17:35.36_-InFeRnO-_~change 4.9 bgn to eur
17:35.46_-InFeRnO-_exactly
17:35.48SpeedEvilElrond: what do you mean hotpluggable? Why would it not be?
17:36.17SpeedEvilActing as a device - certainly, it's just a cable.
17:36.19LuitvD*munch*  *munch*
17:36.45SpeedEvilActing as a host - it's rather more complex, as some hubs don't like hosts with no power.
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17:36.55SpeedEvilIn no case should the neo catch fire.
17:36.59ElrondSpeedEvil - I think, usb hotplugability (at least for devices without battery) depends on the right order of pins getting out, etc.
17:37.38SpeedEvilGenerally
17:37.58SpeedEvilit seems to work just fine - if you pretend that 5V is always connected
17:38.07SpeedEvilFor the neo that is.
17:38.17SpeedEvilThe data line connection order is not specified
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17:39.18SpeedEvilI'm basing this off experience with plugging other stuff into powered-all-the-time adaptors.
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17:40.04ElrondSome magellan units specifically note, that you first should unplug at the pc, then at the unit (the connector at the unit are big connections plates at the back. Much like a mini-docking-station. You can't guarantee ordering there.)
17:40.25SpeedEvilThat's pretty irrelevant - none of the USB wires care.
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17:43.25LuitvDis a regular 3-wire 2,5mm jackplug dangerous in the 4-wire 2,5mm jackplug socket of the neo?
17:43.36SpeedEvilno.
17:43.45SpeedEvilthe connections are the same.
17:43.58SpeedEvilit's only the 'end' connector whihh is used for the headset IITC
17:44.01SpeedEvilIIRC
17:44.02ElrondSo you basicly say "It might not be spec'd for hutpluggability, but it generally works out good"?
17:44.19Elrond(for usb)
17:44.19SpeedEvilUSB is specced for hotplug.
17:44.43SpeedEvilThe Neo isn't quite USB compliant.
17:44.49SpeedEvilBut in general, mostly works.
17:44.49ElrondDoesn't the spec require pin-order for unplugging to be compliant?
17:45.22SpeedEvilIt may require it - the worst that'll happen is a slightly unclean shutdown.
17:45.54ElrondHmm.
17:45.58SpeedEvilI doubt even that though.
17:46.21SpeedEvilAnd if the USB stack gets notified in 50ms later than it should after an error timeout, it doesn't really matter.
17:47.56mikl-dkGood evening. I'm new here - just want to say hi. I have a small question: is the Neo1973 still going to be available within the next month if you're interested in developing to it?
17:48.15SpeedEvilyes
17:48.18SpeedEvilcounter
17:48.18alorilP0: a week, a day 18:11:41 (2.758 - 8.758 days);  P1: 24.758 - 39.758;  P2: 192.758 - 222.758 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (370)
17:48.22Elrondmikl-dk - Try: "/msg aloril2 counter?"
17:48.30SpeedEvilsometime next month
17:48.40Elrondmikl-dk - Try: "/msg aloril counter?"
17:48.43ElrondThat way.
17:48.46mikl-dkahh, cheers, SpeedEvil and Elrond
17:49.54ElrondSpeedEvil - What is not usb compliant on the neo?
17:50.28mikl-dkhow many "specially selected developers" are there - just wondering :-)?
17:51.34Elrondmikl-dk - The rumours say 50.
17:52.54mikl-dkElrond, okay :-) Well, I look forward to being able to order this little bastard of a mobile beauty :-)
17:54.10*** join/#openmoko buz (n=buz@80-218-148-33.dclient.hispeed.ch)
17:55.40ElrondI will wait at least until some people have done some basic testing.(How robust is it? How long does the battery life in the real world? Is the gps really comparable to a sirfIII?  That sort of questions)
17:56.31koen"does the software actually do anything?" is also a good criteria
17:56.39mikl-dkyeah - maybe; but I hope to have the money to get one to "play" with - but I'm studying so the money are not just floating around :-)
17:56.41*** join/#openmoko greentux (n=lemke@195.227.105.180)
17:56.41LuitvDhmm, what would be the best option... €2,38/MB, or €0,24/min?
17:56.49koencriterium even
17:57.01Elrondkoen - Oh you mean like "Does it at least work as a normal phone?" ;o)
17:57.05LuitvD(for GPRS+EDGE+HSDPA)
17:57.17LuitvD(and UMTS)
17:57.28koenElrond: right now the addressbook and calender app don't work
17:57.54koenwell, they display, but you can't add, edit or import stuff
17:58.04ElrondOh well.
17:58.10Magonand building head image is a bit pain ;-)
17:58.42high-rezWhose your carrier?  The company I work for has a decent unlimited HSDPA/UMTS/EDGE/GPRS plan.
17:59.10ElrondWell, for the mum-dad-phase, this all has to become rockstable.
17:59.48Magonkoen: i have fixed the eds-dbus to prodide right header, but still get dates.desktop no rules...how did you solved this one?
18:00.04koenmaybe when people get their heads out of their ass^W^W^Wemulater they might start bugfixing
18:00.15LuitvDhigh-rez: t-mobile has an unlimited-internet plan too... 9,50 on top of the normal costs
18:00.36Magoni am just trying to build it..than start bugfixing
18:00.47Magonbut i need at least compileable head
18:00.55koenI fixed it OE, and mickeyl fixed it in svn
18:00.58high-rezLuitvd: Are you .eu or .us?  TMobile hasn't deployed a WCDMA network (hsdpa/umts) in the US yet.
18:00.58Elrondkoen - Yeah. I hope, that P0 will give lots of bug fixes.
18:01.34Magoni am updating eo...
18:01.38*** join/#openmoko rep (n=rep@vs187078.vserver.de)
18:02.05koenMagon: updating OE won;t help if you use the svn bbcollection
18:02.13LuitvDhigh-rez: europe... the netherlands does have HSDPA coverage of nearly 50% i guess...
18:02.49LuitvDhigh-rez: though, I won't be able to use it for my to-be openmoko device
18:02.51koenElrond: if people need the 'real device' placebo to start developing I don't have high hopes for the amount or quality of bugfixes
18:03.05Magonkoen: i use svn..so where is it fixed?
18:03.39LuitvDbut is €2,38 / MB a decent GRPS traffic cost?
18:04.02high-rezSounds high to me, I'd rather pay the 9.50 for unlimited.
18:04.03koenLuitvD: no
18:04.09Elrondkoen - I can't convince myself to setup the buildenv for my desktop yet. So the placebo might get me to do it ;)
18:04.20LuitvDkoen: why not?
18:04.29LuitvD:O
18:04.31LuitvDkoen: where
18:04.37koenwirelesscircle.nl
18:04.37LuitvDkoen: which carrier?
18:04.46koenkpn/telfort
18:05.14high-rezIs telefort any good?  They would let my device register (cosmote) but I could never figure out how to make a call while I was in the .nl on telefort.
18:05.25LuitvDkoen: that's a nice one :D
18:05.48LuitvDthanks
18:07.25*** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@206.80-202-161.nextgentel.com)
18:07.32high-rezMan, I wish you could buy prepay sims at schipol.  ;(
18:08.18*** join/#openmoko jim_rayner (n=jim_rayn@beyondvoice.plus.com)
18:08.42LuitvDhigh-rez: lol, found a shop :)
18:08.50LuitvDfound ... euhh... create?
18:09.36high-rezLuitvD: Come again?
18:10.10high-rezLuitvD: Are you sayin there's a shop in schipol (airport) that sells prepaid sims?  :D
18:10.13LuitvDhigh-rez: you should start a shop for prepaid cards at schiphol :P
18:10.26_-InFeRnO-_BTW why you have chosen GPRS and not EDGE or UMTS
18:10.52LuitvD_-InFeRnO-_: you mean for the device?
18:11.00_-InFeRnO-_yes
18:11.01koenEDGE == gprs
18:11.05LuitvD:P
18:11.10_-InFeRnO-_yes
18:11.11LuitvDreally?
18:11.13_-InFeRnO-_but edge is faster
18:11.27koenmultislot gprs, e-gprs, edge all the same thing
18:11.42_-InFeRnO-_ok, and why not UMTS
18:11.53koen"we need a different word, it's FASTER!!" - gsm marketing dude
18:11.54high-rezLuitvD: Hey, I'm sure it would be great business.  I bet the airpor has a regulation against it though, otherwise one of the 10000 electronics stores in the airport would sell em.  ;)  I was through schipol 6 times last year.
18:12.07*** join/#openmoko behdad (n=behdad@63.250.163.171)
18:12.30LarstiQhigh-rez: you sure they don't?
18:12.40LuitvDhigh-rez: hmm... maybe the electronics stores don't know there's a market in prepaid-sims :P
18:13.07LuitvDrecife?
18:13.28high-rezUMTS (wcdma) considerations would be cost for the chipset (due to all of the patents involved), battery life associated with it, and the fact that it's a fairly segmented market at the moment.
18:14.14high-rezLarstiQ: Man I looked all over for one.  I don't think they sell them as it would compete with the communications desk / phone card provider.  It's truly lame though.
18:16.03koenhigh-rez: I'll look around in ~3 weeks when I'm at schiphol
18:16.14koenthat reminds me....
18:16.34koenvaccination against yellow fever
18:16.39LarstiQhigh-rez: weird, I'd expect them to be sold alongside power plugs
18:16.58LuitvDkoen: where're you going then?
18:17.02high-rezkoen: Let me know if you find one there.  My wife is going to be roaming through schipol.  The Cosmote sim I had would roam onto the providers there, but didn't seem to be able to make a call.
18:17.37*** join/#openmoko mikesh (n=mikesh@x133.net.upc.cz)
18:17.37koenLuitvD: http://www.bossaconference.org/public.php
18:18.08koenhigh-rez: schiphol does have *really* bad reception with any network
18:18.40koenit could be your antenna wasn't beefy enough
18:18.44LarstiQhmm, another approach for crosscompiling?
18:18.48high-rezkoen: I was going a voice recording, but i couldn't understand what was being said when I tried to dial out.
18:19.00koenah
18:19.17koenI hate those
18:19.22high-rezkoen: That said, I can understand the but about poor reception.  Additionally, I only have a 850/1800/19000mhz device - so I wasn't able to try the 900mhz providers.
18:19.26koenthey are always in a language I don't understand
18:19.56high-rezkoen: Yeah, in this case it was in dutch.  :)  My dutch skills are lacking.  :)
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18:21.12high-rezI love going to .eu but the 10 hour flight to schipol sucks.
18:22.09koenschiphol is a mess behind the scenes
18:22.19koenespecially the MPs guarding it
18:22.54high-rezkoen: I never left the "international area".  I really need to one day and go see amsterdam.
18:24.36noiddschipol is amsterdam right?
18:24.47koenclose
18:25.17koennoidd: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=nl&q=schiphol,+nederland&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=25.900485,74.970703&ie=UTF8&z=11&ll=52.349183,4.774933&spn=0.15561,0.810928&om=1
18:25.28noiddI vaugly remember that through my sex + drug induced haze
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18:30.34*** part/#openmoko rejo1 (n=rejon@adsl-75-5-124-98.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
18:38.55DukeOfURLI jumped onto a United flight in Dallas, just as they were closing the doors.  Thought I was going to Frankfurt.  The flight landed at Schipol.  Had a great time in Holland!
18:41.00*** join/#openmoko aeXin (n=brootvor@150.80-203-127.nextgentel.com)
18:45.33StephmwDukeOfURL: You're lucky you didn't get shot ;)
18:47.02*** join/#openmoko NatureTM (n=theking@CPE-70-94-38-157.wi.res.rr.com)
18:48.29DukeOfURLHeh.  I almost did get shot once at Zurich airport.  I grabbed my suitcase off the cart while walking on the tarmac and into the terminal building.  They *really* didn't like that...
18:48.58DukeOfURLThose Swiss guards with the machine guns sure are big!
18:49.03*** join/#openmoko rob__w (n=bob@p85.212.185.44.tisdip.tiscali.de)
18:49.19StephmwAye, I wouldn't try that with the French ones either
18:49.41CIA-7openmoko: 03laforge * r1054 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/gta01-core.patch: Add headphone insertion GPIO to list of gta01kbd resources
18:50.23*** join/#openmoko mako_ (n=mako@bork.hampshire.edu)
18:51.00CIA-7openmoko: 03laforge * r1055 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/gta01-pcf50606.patch:
18:51.00CIA-7openmoko: Implement suspend/resume for those registers of the PMU that don't survive
18:51.00CIA-7openmoko: STANDBY mode. This might be bogus, since we can't switch the PMU to standby
18:51.00CIA-7openmoko: in Power_off CPU mode anyway. Anyway, it doesn't make things worse to have it ;)
18:51.42CIA-7openmoko: 03laforge * r1056 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/gta01-inputdevice.patch:
18:51.42CIA-7openmoko: * add HOLD key support to gta01kbd
18:51.42CIA-7openmoko: * make both HOLD and 911 key events wake-up sources
18:52.19DukeOfURLGotta reboot for the new OSX security updates.
18:52.53*** join/#openmoko vmaster_ (i=vmaster@p5B07E22E.dip.t-dialin.net)
18:53.24CIA-7openmoko: 03laforge * r1057 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-s3c2410-mmc.patch:
18:53.24CIA-7openmoko: cosmetic cleanup, as requested by u-boot folks
18:53.24CIA-7openmoko: * use 'debug' function rather than custom macros
18:53.24CIA-7openmoko: * fix indentation
18:54.33CIA-7openmoko: 03laforge * r1058 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-cramfs_but_no_jffs2.patch: Incorporate cleanup as per u-boot developers reviews
18:54.53*** join/#openmoko stefan_schmidt (n=stefan@datenfreihafen.org)
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18:55.35CIA-7openmoko: 03laforge * r1059 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/ (series uboot-neo1973-resume.patch): add (not yet working) suspend/resume from/to RAM support (Ben Dooks)
18:58.05*** join/#openmoko DukeOfURL (n=chatzill@vc7-1-39.dsl.netrack.net)
18:58.43DukeOfURLHmmm.  I don't feel any more secure.
18:59.27PBeckre
19:02.35*** join/#openmoko mako__ (n=mako@bork.hampshire.edu)
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19:12.11LazerdyeHi, I have openmoko running in qemu-arm, but is there a quick/easy way to get a cursor?
19:12.52jebbaalt-tab to rxvt and you can see it on that screen. ;)   It really is there, you just can't see it.
19:13.23*** join/#openmoko Zoolooc_ (n=Zoolooc@p54950ADB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
19:14.06Lazerdyejebba: thanks, that's one way to do it :)
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19:18.33DukeOfURLTwo or three years ago I read where a Japanese company was offering cat translation--it supposedly translated your pet cat's meows into human speech.  Was this a put-on, or is there really such a device?
19:18.56k-ysuch a device exists; whether or not it actually works is an exercise to the buyer
19:19.14k-ythey also have devices that can supposedly translate dog barks and baby noises
19:19.16DukeOfURLIf it was for real, can you imagine how many Neos we could sell with this application...
19:23.14ElrondDukeOfURL - *lol*
19:24.00DukeOfURLNot kidding.   One must be a cat/dog lover to realize the importance of knowing what your pet is telling you.
19:24.35DukeOfURLA portable device like the Neo would be perfect.
19:24.56Elrondyeah.
19:25.02SpeedEvil'Take this damn phone off me, it's heavy'.
19:25.04LazerdyeJust give your cat a Neo and she can call you whenever she wants.
19:25.06ElrondI wonder, wether the builtin mic is good enough.
19:25.24Clint[OT] http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/biztech/03/24/tech.dogs.language.reut/index.html
19:25.34DukeOfURLA BT dongle hanging from the cat collar...
19:25.49DukeOfURL:=)
19:25.58ElrondSpeedEvil - *g* :-))
19:26.19DukeOfURLI see I'm driving people off the IRC.  ok, enough cat talk
19:27.23ElrondNext the cat will use the neo to open the bt-powered door. ;)
19:27.34*** join/#openmoko Matt_PI__ (n=chatzill@209.198.66.141)
19:28.09DukeOfURLWith my cats, it would be the refridgerator door...
19:29.52DukeOfURLOn a serious note...
19:30.22ElrondWont be long until they rule the world. :)
19:30.25SpeedEvilCat claws are bad for touchscreens.
19:30.59DukeOfURLI've lost a lot of my hearing, and hearing aids don't filter the ambient (background) noise.  The ambient noise is a problem when trying to understand speech.
19:31.18ElrondSpeedEvil - They'll control the neo by meowing anyway. ;)
19:31.51DukeOfURLWith the Neo and some signal processing, one could filter the ambient noise without having to purchase a $2500 hearing aid.
19:32.37ElrondDukeOfURL - Don't expect too much from the CPU. It's like a Pentoum at 200MHz or so.
19:33.03*** join/#openmoko morricone (i=foobar@dslb-084-057-157-055.pools.arcor-ip.net)
19:33.29DukeOfURLHeh.  Are you odl enough to remember the Z80?  We did a lot of stuff on that one.
19:33.36DukeOfURLold
19:34.08koen_z80?
19:34.12prpplaguehehe
19:34.17Elrondkoen_ - yeah. ;)
19:34.18koen_almost every highschool kid has one nowadays
19:34.18prpplaguekoen_: zx81
19:34.31prpplaguekoen_: i have a whole box of those, hehe
19:34.34koen_with those TI83 graphing calculators
19:34.52koenthe only assembly I enjoyed writing :)
19:35.30DukeOfURLaddress space was 64K
19:35.36ElrondHmm. In those days I playd with 8890 (370 clones) running VM/ESX ;o)
19:35.53DukeOfURLyup.  1ms cycle time.
19:36.14DukeOfURLs/1ms/1us/   micro sec
19:36.55ElrondDukeOfURL - Hmm... an order 20 IIR should work out, yes... Don't know if that is good enough filtering.
19:38.37*** join/#openmoko parag0n (n=parag0n@popeshoe.gotadsl.co.uk)
19:39.08DukeOfURLmaybe, is there's any room left on the board, sean could give us a signal processing IC
19:40.16DukeOfURLSeriously, how many hearing disabled persons would like to use a cell phone?
19:40.35ElrondI have no idea.
19:41.20ElrondWho would tune the IIR for them?
19:44.11*** join/#openmoko denis^da (n=denis@p549BCFE6.dip.t-dialin.net)
19:44.41*** join/#openmoko tuxperger (n=mv@a88-112-60-192.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
19:45.52tuxperger?
19:48.26SpeedEvilThe CPU can be put in both sides.
19:48.31SpeedEvilAnd can do  pitch bending.
19:48.49SpeedEvilSo if you can't hear high pitched, it can reduce frequency.
19:49.00*** join/#openmoko koen (n=koen@dominion.kabel.utwente.nl)
19:49.56ElrondSpeedEvil - Yeah.
19:50.31Elrondtihi, the neo can be used for voice obfuscation ;)
19:51.03buzuhm
19:51.16buzisnt the gsm module connected to the microphone directly
19:51.21SpeedEvilNo.
19:51.29Elrondbuz - No.
19:51.30SpeedEvilIt's connected through the sound mixers.
19:51.37buzbut analog yes?
19:51.48ElrondThe gsm is analog, yes.
19:51.53SpeedEvilyes.
19:51.54tuxpergerwindow show 2
19:52.01SpeedEvilWhich is a bit annoying.
19:52.06ElrondSo for any "through CPU", it's always ADC->DAC.
19:52.24SpeedEvilIt'd be nice if we could throw raw 'GSM' data to it.
19:52.43*** join/#openmoko jobi (n=jobi@sipdev.ssvl.kth.se)
19:53.17SpeedEvilI note that voice codec data is 13K, which with FEC and lots of error coding could be fun.
19:53.42ElrondFEC?
19:53.54SpeedEvilForward Error Correction
19:54.02ElrondAhh.
19:54.13SpeedEvilBasically - you add correction bits, in the knowledge that there will be errors.
19:54.22SpeedEvilRather than correct afterwards.
19:54.28ElrondYeah, I know.
19:54.51ElrondShouldn't libgsm do all that fun for us?
19:54.57*** part/#openmoko tuxperger (n=mv@a88-112-60-192.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
19:55.00Elrond(not libgsmd)
19:55.12SpeedEvilNo - the modem does all of this on its own.
19:56.09ElrondYes, I know.
19:56.40ElrondBut IF we could send raw data, libgsm should do the encoding for us. So it should be easy.
19:56.54SpeedEvilIn theory
19:57.03SpeedEvilthe modem may not let us
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20:01.12loufoqueif we could send raw data there would be no purpose to the proprietary libgsm
20:01.40Elrondloufoque - libgsmd is not proprietary.
20:02.18*** join/#openmoko Zoolooc (n=Zoolooc@p5495297C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
20:02.27ElrondAt least I would be very surprised, if it was. That would really kill the base point of the phone.
20:02.31loufoqueI didn't write libgsmd
20:03.37Elrondloufoque - libgsm is in debian main.
20:03.47stefan_schmidtAnyone tried native (i686) builds? MACHINE=fic-gta01 and qemuarm worked fine with the fixes from the wiki.
20:04.31*** join/#openmoko TarasBulba (n=gorkem@81.214.127.147)
20:05.08loufoqueElrond: I don't know what the components of the gsm stack is, I just meant that we couldn't send raw data since there was some proprietary things somewhere trying to control what's being sent
20:05.59*** join/#openmoko Zoolooc_ (n=Zoolooc@p54953C13.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
20:06.33Elrondloufoque - _inside_ the gsm module. Which is outside the cpu.
20:07.25buzubuntu seems a wee bit weird
20:07.34buzwhere did qemuarm get lost
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20:09.50mikeshcounter
20:09.50alorilP0: a week, a day 15:50:09 (2.660 - 8.660 days);  P1: 24.660 - 39.660;  P2: 192.660 - 222.660 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (371)
20:10.54greentuxElrond:  dont expect more then 2400bit/s thru speech gsm channel. under best conditions.
20:11.20*** join/#openmoko apardo (n=apardo@87.217.144.34)
20:11.52leventhalhm, that little? I got ~9600 off tdma back in the day
20:12.13greentuxleventhal:  via data channel yes. but they talked about the gsm speech channel I assume
20:12.15SpeedEvilI really doubt 2400.
20:12.34SpeedEvilThe GSM codec is an encryption - for all purposes.
20:12.48SpeedEvilIt converts bit errors mostly into things that sound similar.
20:12.48greentuxSpeedEvil:  no that is also some compression
20:13.34SpeedEvilIf you then try to reverse what it sounds like to reconstruct what the non-errored wavelenth was, it gets horribly complex.
20:14.02SpeedEvilnon-errored bitstream
20:14.21greentuxits complex yes.
20:14.55greentuxthere is a modem on the market. 2400 bit/s. max.
20:15.04SpeedEvilOh - in that case...
20:15.19SpeedEvilI'm not arguing with extant hardware, that'd be silly :)
20:15.43buz"people saying it's impossible should not interfere with people doing it"
20:16.04SpeedEvil2400 is quite an achievement.
20:16.16greentuxSpeedEvil:  you need some DSP or a powerful cpu
20:16.23*** part/#openmoko SirCrow (n=sircrow@sd511685b.adsl.wanadoo.nl)
20:16.24SpeedEvilLots of.
20:16.31greentuxand all these a/d d/a converter are not very helpful
20:16.36SpeedEvilTrue.
20:16.54SpeedEvilYou have to do the 56K - alike thing.
20:16.58goxboxlivestefan_schmidt: I saw your post at planet-openmoko. On HTC universal we have Openmoko running. I have also managed to receive a call, but we havent got the sounddriver ready yet so there where no sound.
20:17.22SpeedEvilEspecially if you don't have greater than the output of the GSM board A/D than D/A
20:17.55stefan_schmidtgoxboxlive: Neat. You really need a complete sound driver or only audio routing.
20:18.05goxboxliveI have also tried to make calls, but it dies when trying. I have to look further in to it, but anyway openmoko runs ok
20:18.30stefan_schmidtgoxboxlive: On EZX it seems we only need audio routing. BP handles audio on is own.
20:18.56stefan_schmidtgoxboxlive: Anyway, one more reason to play with a HTC device at some point. :)
20:19.00goxboxliveI know, cr2 is looking in to it, and some other guy is trying to make a asoc driver.
20:19.13stefan_schmidtgoxboxlive: nice
20:19.19koengoxboxlive: I merged in htc-universal support into the xserver startup scripts openmoko uses, so if you're building for the universal, don't use the OE stuff from openmoko svn
20:19.53greentuxSpeedEvil:  in german: http://www.virtualuniversity.ch/telekom/modem/20.html
20:19.59goxboxlivekoen: ok
20:20.15stefan_schmidtgoxboxlive: We'll perhaps try a small audio-routing-only hack first and start porting to ASoC afterwards. Audio drivers are still a bit scarry for me. :)
20:20.29goxboxlivecr2 says the same
20:20.54*** join/#openmoko dilinger (n=dilinger@wireless-19-71.media.mit.edu)
20:21.02stefan_schmidtgoxboxlive: ASoC is the right way, but I never done audio stuff before.:)
20:21.19goxboxlivewe had the same problem with gomunicator and uucp. The soundchip is quite complex on uni
20:21.25goxboxlivei c
20:22.04stefan_schmidtgoxboxlive: Seems sounds chips on phones are always strange. The EZX stuff is... eh ... strange.
20:22.29stefan_schmidtgoxboxlive: What would be the best HTC to play with?
20:22.29goxboxliveyes i have heard that
20:22.42stefan_schmidtgoxboxlive: Will you be at FOSDEM?
20:22.54goxboxliveWell if you ask me i think the HTC Universal because of it's screen
20:23.30goxboxliveno, i will not join the FOSDEM.
20:23.42stefan_schmidtok, 640x480?
20:23.45goxboxliveyes
20:23.47stefan_schmidtIt's a pity
20:23.50goxboxliveand querty
20:23.56stefan_schmidtusual price?
20:24.24greentuxSpeedEvil:   leventhal : in english http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/N.Katugampala/pubs/iee03.pdf part 2
20:24.27greentuxvery interesting
20:24.28goxboxlivei dont know now, but i guess ebay is a goos place. It's still expensive here in Norway
20:24.47goxboxliveI mean the only think Universal is missing is gps
20:24.55stefan_schmidtgoxboxlive: OK, I'll take a look.
20:25.10goxboxliveI have just bought a A780 now
20:25.17goxboxliveGot it on Ebay
20:25.18stefan_schmidtgoxboxlive: In one week I'll have two GPS phones anyway. ;)
20:25.23goxboxlive:-)
20:25.33stefan_schmidtgoxboxlive: Ah, with GPS this time?
20:25.37goxboxliveyes
20:25.39goxboxlive:-)
20:25.46stefan_schmidtsweet
20:26.52stefan_schmidtgoxboxlive: Is that the one you mean? http://cgi.ebay.de/VPA-IV-HTC-Universal-Qtek-9000-neuwertig_W0QQitemZ190085029743QQihZ009QQcategoryZ38331QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
20:27.24goxboxliveyes thats the onbe
20:28.02goxboxliveIt comes as diffrents branding, QTEK 9000, I-mate JasJar and so om
20:28.36stefan_schmidtgoxboxlive: Not that cheap. Seems I have to wait . :(
20:29.04stefan_schmidtgoxboxlive: A search for QTEK 9000 gives some cheaper results.
20:29.20stefan_schmidtgoxboxlive: Some times branding is funny
20:29.38stefan_schmidtoh, even umts. cool
20:29.38goxboxlive:-) yes still expensive. It's succesor is just about to enter the market (with 5" and gps) so i guess it will drop in the next months
20:29.53goxboxliveeverything beside gps and edge
20:30.27stefan_schmidtnice
20:30.37stefan_schmidtI'll have a look at it.
20:30.56goxboxlivehttp://wiki.xda-developers.com/index.php?pagename=HTC_Universal
20:31.29goxboxlivewell, Prison Break is calling. bbl
20:31.49stefan_schmidtbye
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20:34.32CIA-7openmoko: 03laforge * r1060 10/trunk/oe/packages/linux/linux-gta01_2.6.20.bb: bump to 2.6.20.1 kernel to get nfs bugfix
20:38.38CIA-7openmoko: 03laforge * r1061 10/trunk/oe/packages/linux/ (3 files in 2 dirs): 2.6.20.1 gets a different bbfile and defconfig
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20:47.38LuitvDjebba: do you think both mounting the .ext2 file and using it in qemu can go wrong?
20:48.03mjryes, yes it can
20:48.28*** join/#openmoko _rob (n=rob@AC9E9EDA.ipt.aol.com)
20:48.34LuitvDmjr: ah, okay :P
20:49.14mjrif you want it available on both, use nfs or something over the simulated network
20:49.35LuitvD:P
20:50.05LuitvDor just edit the settings in the virtual serial terminal
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20:55.47LuitvDanybody else using the qemuarm build of openmoko?
20:56.00LuitvDif so, how do I rotate the screen? :P
20:59.30koenLuitvD: see the developers lists
20:59.33LuitvDcjb: you have a device already?
20:59.40LuitvDkoen: okay...
20:59.41koenLuitvD: mickeyl answered that a few hours ago
20:59.51LuitvDgood,
21:00.00*** join/#openmoko pleemans (n=peter@d51A5E76A.access.telenet.be)
21:00.28koenlists.openmoko.org -> devel -> by date would be faster
21:01.43cjbLuitvD: yeah, a friend has one and brought it into work.
21:04.04Clintyou and the rest of the channel
21:04.23koencjb: did you see the screen in action yet, or was the battery completely dead?
21:04.55cjbkoen: dead so far.  apparently it works if you hack the requisite voltage onto the other end of a USB cable, so we'll do that.
21:07.29koencjb: yeah, it should trigger the charging circuit if no communication was received in ~30 secs
21:07.41koenso any 'dumb' usb charger should work
21:07.58Clintlike one for a blackberry?
21:09.46koenthe ones with a wallsocket plug and a usb plug
21:10.05*** join/#openmoko Trular (n=chatzill@ti231110a080-5449.bb.online.no)
21:10.31Clinttoo bad i have one of those
21:10.34koencjb: does the olpc have bt?
21:11.56rohkoen afaik not
21:12.07koenit's missing from the spec page
21:12.15Clintlast i heard you need a usb dongle for it
21:12.29buzwhat do you need BT for on OLPC
21:12.46koento use the neo for internet access :)
21:12.48*** join/#openmoko MDK (n=mdk@cs181209253.pp.htv.fi)
21:13.03mjrwell, you can do that with usb too :]
21:13.10buzrofl
21:13.23buzthat thing is harder to come by than neos ;)
21:13.25*** join/#openmoko chrustinho (n=christop@p57B00B99.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
21:13.41koenespecially if I'm stuck in a small seat
21:13.47koeni.e train and bus
21:14.17rohkoen but as long as http://www.golem.de/0702/50615.html is true... i think it will be a big flop
21:15.26koenheh
21:16.56*** join/#openmoko MacNorth (n=daijobu@c-75-71-250-33.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
21:18.44LuitvDso... mickeyl built a patch for the qemuarm rotation config... and it needs to be rebuilt to use that?
21:20.03*** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru)
21:21.13parag0nhaha, wtf, sg1 are using alienware laptops
21:21.28parag0nwrtong room
21:21.32parag0nbut still :P
21:25.04LuitvD:)_
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21:40.38DukeOfURLAny thoughts on an FSK modem on top of GSM?  For short bursts of data?
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21:46.09LuitvDis the TI GPRS module a class-A GPRS device?
21:47.55mjrapparently B
21:48.03mjrnot sure though
21:48.35LuitvDclass A would be nice :)
21:48.41mjrwell
21:50.11SpeedEvilDukeOfURL: seee the earlier refereenced PDF
21:50.47DukeOfURLtoday?
21:50.57SpeedEvilyes
21:51.02SpeedEvil4 hours ago?
21:51.05SpeedEvil<PROTECTED>
21:51.07SpeedEviloops
21:51.16SpeedEvil<PROTECTED>
21:51.16SpeedEvil<PROTECTED>
21:51.17SpeedEvil<PROTECTED>
21:53.37DukeOfURLgot it, thx
21:57.30LuitvDlol, I wonder ... would a USB HSDPA modem work on the gsmd?
21:59.04*** join/#openmoko Rac0r_ (n=Rac0r@p5081FEA1.dip.t-dialin.net)
21:59.31DukeOfURLJust out of curosity, was the previous discussion about encryption or about data over GSM?
21:59.41DukeOfURLspeech encryption?
22:01.53LuitvDspeech encryption I guess...
22:03.12SpeedEvilIt's generic data over GSM voice.
22:03.22SpeedEvilYou can put voice there if you want.
22:04.36*** join/#openmoko koen (n=koen@dominion.kabel.utwente.nl)
22:05.01DukeOfURLWhat about DTMF?  How does DTMF handle it?
22:05.12DukeOfURLHow does GSM handle DTMF?
22:05.25SpeedEvilYes, it can do DTMF
22:07.15anselmcounter?
22:07.15alorilsource: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; a week, a day 13:52:44 (2.578 - 8.578 days) for devices for selected developers (2007-02-28);  a month, a week, a day (24.578 - 39.578 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-31);  7 months, a week, a day (192.578 - 222.578 days) for mass market (2007-09-30): see topic for more info (372)
22:09.34*** join/#openmoko slomo (n=slomo@ubuntu/member/slomo)
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22:22.36al3xwin 26
22:23.13koenloose 38
22:24.50al3xwin 42
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22:34.00greentuxdtmf is only via signalling channel done.
22:34.40*** join/#openmoko slomo (n=slomo@ubuntu/member/slomo)
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22:55.49CoreDump|homehi
22:57.01*** join/#openmoko CSDexter (i=csdexter@89.37.42.189)
22:58.34CoreDump|homeI'm wondering if you can access the serial console via Neo-USB <-> Debug Board <-> Notebook or if you need to take apart the neo and use the "debug-port connector"? The wiki isn't entirely clear on this part.
22:58.51SpeedEvilSerial via usb works fine.
22:59.11CoreDump|homeSpeedEvil: excellent, thanks =)
22:59.12SpeedEvilThe debug board is only for when you _really_ have problems.
23:00.19*** join/#openmoko afonit (n=afonit@72.243.23.170)
23:00.41CoreDump|homeso one can indeed access kernel messages and similiar things via Neo's normal USB port?
23:00.55SpeedEvilI presume so, and do other USB-serial stuff over it.
23:01.08SpeedEvilI mean serial-console
23:01.26CoreDump|homerighto
23:01.27SpeedEvilI don't know if you get the messages before the USB subsystem comes up.
23:01.28*** join/#openmoko rwhitby (n=rwhitby@nslu2-linux/rwhitby)
23:01.50CoreDump|homeThat's what I was wondering ;) As USB is usually brought up quite late
23:02.07SpeedEvilRemember - it's a USB gadget, it's not a USB host.
23:02.15SpeedEvilI don't know where that's brought up.
23:02.30SpeedEvils/where/when/
23:02.48CoreDump|homeyeah, well, we'll see heh
23:03.23SpeedEvilAnd if extra debug flex cables'd be available.
23:03.59*** join/#openmoko Harlekin23 (n=Harlekin@p549688EC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
23:05.12CoreDump|homeSomeone hinted the P0 phones ship w/ one
23:05.24SpeedEvilSomeone stated flat out that they did.
23:05.38SpeedEvilI don't remember if it was here or the ML.
23:05.39rwhitbyCoreDump|home: it was stated by Werner on the list as a direct answer to my direct question :-)
23:05.48SpeedEvilOptional extra for P1.
23:07.05LuitvDhmm
23:07.21LuitvDbut for how much? with the P1 devices...
23:07.39vmasterin most cases you wont have to use the debug board
23:07.41*** join/#openmoko morricone (i=foobar@dslb-084-057-157-055.pools.arcor-ip.net)
23:07.50vmasterit is of zero use for application development
23:08.00vmasterpeople have done driver development without JTAG debugging for ages
23:08.09CoreDump|homerighto
23:08.34SpeedEvilWhat's brought out on the debug board? AIUI, there is JTAG, and a serial port. Is it more than that?
23:08.40vmasterof course, using the OpenOCD is the right thing (tm) ;) - but maybe I'm biased
23:09.32LuitvDSpeedEvil: a USB hub I guess...
23:09.58SpeedEvilI meant on the connector
23:10.15SpeedEvilthe board has - IIRC a parallel port - sorta - and a serial port and hub.
23:10.47Elrondcounter
23:10.47alorilP0: a week, a day 12:49:12 (2.534 - 8.534 days);  P1: 24.534 - 39.534;  P2: 192.534 - 222.534 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (373)
23:11.16SpeedEvilthe parallel port talks to the JTAG bits, and the serial port to the internal serial port.
23:11.29stefan_schmidtSpeedEvil: Only v1
23:11.45stefan_schmidtSpeedEvil: v2 uses a ftdi chip for jatg and serial
23:11.53SpeedEvilAh.
23:11.58stefan_schmidtSpeedEvil: USB connection to host
23:12.06stefan_schmidtSpeedEvil: Power over usb
23:12.08SpeedEvilI'd forgotten aout the spiffier FTDU chips
23:12.22ElrondWill P0-people get that board?
23:12.26stefan_schmidtSpeedEvil: and a usb hub the psb
23:12.39stefan_schmidtElrond: I hope so. :)
23:12.53vmaster00:05 < rwhitby> CoreDump|home: it was stated by Werner on the list as a direct answer to my direct question :-)
23:13.01stefan_schmidtElrond: Not complete sure. But I think it is included.
23:13.14vmasterrwhitby gave that answer 8 minutes ago
23:13.15stefan_schmidthi vmaster
23:13.19vmasterhey stefan_schmidt
23:13.19stefan_schmidtah
23:13.32stefan_schmidtSo it should be in
23:13.41stefan_schmidtWill see in ~a week
23:13.50CoreDump|homecounter
23:13.51alorilP0: a week, a day 12:46:08 (2.532 - 8.532 days);  P1: 24.532 - 39.532;  P2: 192.532 - 222.532 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (374)
23:13.55stefan_schmidtvmaster: Promoting OpenOCD or just hanging around?
23:14.05CoreDump|homelets hope the hardware is ready in  days =)
23:14.07Elronda week + shipping + fun at customs. ;)
23:14.13*** join/#openmoko kaboofa (n=tom@c-66-30-106-191.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
23:14.43vmasterstefan_schmidt: waiting for someone to mention the list of known bugs that's on the wiki - I believe I fixed the libftdi initialization bug, and I've never heard about the CP15 problem mentioned
23:15.45vmasterstefan_schmidt: well, and a bit of hanging around, as openmoko seems to be /really/ interesting
23:16.32stefan_schmidtvmaster: hmm, LaF0rge and werner doing most of the system level stuff. Would be best to ask what the bugs refer to.
23:16.32ElrondLuitvD - I guess for the full 40 days... they will only ship, when the base software on the phone is stable enough for the average hacker.
23:16.59LuitvDElrond: well... what makes you think the P0 isn't 'stable' ?
23:17.09*** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru)
23:17.14*** join/#openmoko parag0n_ (n=parag0n@popeshoe.gotadsl.co.uk)
23:17.36stefan_schmidtLuitvD: I'm not even sure if I need to flash the first image myself. :)
23:17.48LuitvD:P
23:18.09LuitvDstefan_schmidt: you mean flash through the development-board?
23:18.50CIA-7openmoko: 03werner * r1062 10/developers/werner/notes/ (. openocd): My OpenOCD setup and usage notes.
23:18.53stefan_schmidtLuitvD: Perhaps. I will see when the box arrives
23:18.54*** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@dsl093-060-111.pit1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
23:19.19stefan_schmidtvmaster: heh, werner reads our minds...
23:19.44vmasterstefan_schmidt: heh, do you happen to know where /developers/werner/notes/ is?
23:19.58stefan_schmidthttps://svn.openmoko.org/developers/werner/notes/openocd
23:19.58LuitvDplease do take many pictures :)
23:20.13vmasterthanks
23:20.27stefan_schmidtLuitvD: http://people.openmoko.org/laforge/photos/ is not enough?
23:20.43*** join/#openmoko msroest (n=msroest@S01060040f41dad58.cg.shawcable.net)
23:20.52stefan_schmidtbtw, we not even know which color we'll get
23:21.12LuitvDstefan_schmidt: last time I checked there were no images with both the lid on and the screen on ;P
23:21.33LuitvDthat's what I'm waiting for, a picture of the hardware and the software together
23:21.40CoreDump|homepuuulleeeeezz not the orange thingy
23:21.43stefan_schmidtLuitvD: I'm pretty sure the will be *many* images once the first boxes arrives.
23:21.45CoreDump|home;)
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23:22.13LuitvDSpeedEvil: already have good black paint...
23:22.14CoreDump|homethe black one looks sexy
23:22.18LuitvDyeah...
23:22.26LuitvDit looks awesome
23:22.31ElrondLuitvD - Well: The average hacker probably will not have the devel-board. Take this into account.
23:22.33LuitvDthough the white-orange is nice too...
23:22.39CoreDump|homeright
23:22.51LuitvDand the hardware is the same...
23:22.57LuitvDit's the inside that counts :)
23:23.10CoreDump|homeyeah.
23:23.19CoreDump|homeshiny new hardware =D
23:23.25LuitvD(just like my desktop computer... it's ugly as hell, and I'm very happy with what it does :)
23:24.06SpeedEvilMy desktop is currently in an advanced composite ceramic case.
23:24.20SpeedEvil(AKA on top of a floor tile, on some bits of wood)
23:24.29CoreDump|homehehe
23:24.30LuitvDif there'll be no black devices before P2 I guess I'll still buy a P1 device, and paint it myself :)
23:24.41LuitvDSpeedEvil: lol
23:24.41Elrondhihi
23:24.43SpeedEvilPaint sucks though.
23:24.50vmasterstefan_schmidt: heh, that's a serious case of mind reading - he ain't in this channel
23:24.51SpeedEvilLeather might work.
23:24.52LuitvDSpeedEvil: not if you buy the right paint
23:25.03LuitvDSpeedEvil: or suede :D
23:25.10ElrondLuitvD - I guess, they will offer both for P1. If you pay bugs, they can really offer some color.
23:25.27LuitvDElrond: yeah, guess so... but what if ;)
23:25.34SpeedEvilThrough coloured is always better.
23:25.36SpeedEvilIMO.
23:25.42SpeedEvilEven though you don't get metallic.
23:25.50SpeedEvilWell - unless it's stainless.
23:25.54stefan_schmidtvmaster: heh
23:26.55ElrondAre there more pics on the wiki? ;)
23:27.07LuitvDhmm, it could be cool to have uncoloured plastic fronts...
23:27.44SpeedEvilUncoloured has issues.
23:27.45SpeedEvilThe colourant tends to mask 'functional' additives.
23:27.45LuitvDwhy?
23:27.45SpeedEvilThat add strength to the plastic, impact resistance and stuff.
23:27.54ElrondAhh.
23:27.55SpeedEvilThat's why you tend to get translucent at best.
23:28.05LuitvDi mean blank, not transparent...
23:28.10SpeedEvilOr really scratchy - polycarbonate.
23:28.15SpeedEvilblank?
23:28.21LuitvDjust plain white, or some other easily dyable color
23:28.24SpeedEvilOh.
23:28.30LuitvDyeah, blank, no added pigments
23:28.36SpeedEvilPlastic doesn't really dye.
23:28.39LuitvDso you can dye it yourself..
23:28.53LuitvDSpeedEvil: candypaint works good enaugh for me :)
23:28.54SpeedEvilIt doesn't have pores for the dye to sink into generally.
23:29.38LuitvDSpeedEvil: if you heat up the plastic a little, it'll become soft
23:30.01LuitvD(not all plastics, only some)
23:30.24SpeedEvilYes, there are ways to paint plastics. My problem is that it always wears off, then looks horrible.
23:30.32SpeedEvilMaybe I just abuse stuff too much.
23:30.33*** join/#openmoko pirulo (n=andres_p@65.19.28.123)
23:31.14LuitvDlol
23:31.24CoreDump|homehehe you guys should see my poor Collie Zaurus
23:31.27LuitvDanyways, everybody likes the black+silver version
23:31.28LuitvD:P
23:31.35CoreDump|homeThere basically no color left =)
23:31.41LuitvDCoreDump|home: show us :)
23:31.48CoreDump|homeno cam
23:31.52CoreDump|homehmm
23:32.09CoreDump|homemaybe tomorrow I'll make a picture
23:32.15LuitvDmy Palm T|E2 has a kind of bare patch on the back :P
23:32.33SpeedEvilI had bad experiences painting a 486/75 laptop. The oven I put it in to dry the paint malfunctioned, and melted most of the case.
23:32.33LuitvDthe paint ruffend up, and finally chipped off
23:32.47LuitvDSpeedEvil: lol, too hot
23:33.36LuitvDbye :)
23:33.44CoreDump|homen8 LuitvD
23:33.55SpeedEvilWAve.
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23:34.54aevini read about the flash partitioning and the BBT (bad block table) in the wiki. why is it desirable to distinguish between factory-bad flash blocks and worn-out flash blocks?
23:36.08Elrondaevin - I wondered that too. Have no answer.
23:37.37aevini guess there is a reason since the partitioning uses the last working blocks for BBT rather than storing the non-working blocks in the OOB.
23:37.59ElrondWeee... I didn't know, there is a standard for firmware update in usb devices... Cool!
23:38.45aevinyou mean on all usb devices? do you think most devices implements it?
23:38.54ElrondI'll have fun and kick some stupid vendors at it and ask them, why they don't support a standard. ;)
23:39.07Elrondaevin - Not many implement it. sadly.
23:39.11SpeedEvilIIRC the factory bad bad blocks are marked specially at the factory - the whole block is locked off.
23:40.34Elrondaevin - See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/USB_DFU
23:54.26*** join/#openmoko gsyoungblood (n=gyoungbl@az.netio.org)

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