| 00:00.29 | pavelm | speed: Actually I like the torch idea. |
| 00:00.43 | pavelm | speed: I already had my t68i modded to include torch, and I use it a _lot_. |
| 00:00.48 | SpeedEvil | Using a Cree 1W LED - one of the most efficient LEDs out there. |
| 00:01.14 | jbnet | I use my current cell's backlight as a flashlight sometimes |
| 00:01.16 | SpeedEvil | Prolly hooking it up to the vibrator motor output (with buffering) |
| 00:01.19 | Elrond | torch? |
| 00:01.26 | SpeedEvil | Flashlight. |
| 00:01.57 | pavelm | jbnet: yep, backlight is useful.. but do not try to ride bike using it as sole source of light ;-). |
| 00:02.08 | jbnet | this just goes to show google needs and English->English option in their translator |
| 00:02.49 | SpeedEvil | LEDs have gotten astoundingly more efficient in the last 3 years. |
| 00:03.03 | SpeedEvil | From competing with halogen, to competing with linear fluorescant tubes. |
| 00:03.17 | SpeedEvil | (20 lumens/watt to 90 lumens/watt) |
| 00:03.25 | Elrond | Wee. |
| 00:03.27 | pavelm | speed: Are the improvements really that dramatic...? |
| 00:03.31 | SpeedEvil | Yes. |
| 00:03.34 | *** join/#openmoko Ryushin (i=proxy@windwalker.openinnovations.com) |
| 00:03.52 | SpeedEvil | To the extent that the cream of the crop now has 35% wallplug to photon efficiency. |
| 00:03.53 | pavelm | speed: I was not aware of that. Does it go only for white leds, or did green/red leds improve, too? |
| 00:04.07 | SpeedEvil | White and blue have gotten better. |
| 00:04.19 | SpeedEvil | Green and read have really stuch in the mud comparatively. |
| 00:04.23 | SpeedEvil | red |
| 00:04.42 | SpeedEvil | red is at 50lm/W, green at 40, and white at 80 or so (for the best) |
| 00:05.09 | jbnet | How come people don't use white in 7 segs? I've never seen it |
| 00:05.10 | Elrond | Where are normal wolfram based lightbulbs? |
| 00:05.25 | SpeedEvil | The best ones are around 20. |
| 00:05.37 | pavelm | speed: _that_ good? Really? |
| 00:05.49 | pavelm | speed: But that is not the ones you'd find in lightbulb, right? |
| 00:05.55 | SpeedEvil | Common 100W ones are at around 14, and flashlights down as low as 1. |
| 00:05.55 | pavelm | speed; (in flashlight) |
| 00:06.34 | SpeedEvil | Flashlights can be _horrible_ I replaced my 1AAA minimag-solitare keyring light (2.5 hours on AAA) with a similar sized LED one from http://www.fenix-store.com/ |
| 00:06.49 | SpeedEvil | On 'mid' brightness it's around 20 times brighter, and the same life. |
| 00:06.56 | SpeedEvil | On high, around 40 times. |
| 00:07.05 | SpeedEvil | This is extreme though. |
| 00:07.16 | SpeedEvil | 2AA/3AA lights are not so bad. |
| 00:07.32 | SpeedEvil | http://www.candlepowerforums.com/ is worth a quick look. |
| 00:08.00 | SpeedEvil | The 20lm/W figure was for high prices automotive lights IIRC, with special IR reflective coatings. |
| 00:08.13 | SpeedEvil | 50W or so power. |
| 00:08.45 | pavelm | (still searching for a reasonable light system for horseback riding. LEDs are nice, but more power would be welcome. Only need 1.5hour or so of battery life...) |
| 00:09.07 | benJIman | You can get very bright LEDs |
| 00:09.12 | SpeedEvil | There are _lots_ of solutions for that sort of thing on candlepowerforums. |
| 00:09.35 | benJIman | 2.5W bike LED lights can compete with car headlights |
| 00:09.39 | SpeedEvil | Everything from CR123 keychain lights (that are astoundingly bright for their size) to 55W HID lights. |
| 00:10.01 | SpeedEvil | 55W HID lights may set fire to the horse though :) |
| 00:11.11 | pavelm | speed: Horse has few kilowatts of power at maximum, should be quite hard to set on fire. |
| 00:11.20 | pavelm | What is "HID"? |
| 00:11.32 | SpeedEvil | High Intensity Discharge. |
| 00:11.41 | SpeedEvil | It's the bluish light found in high priced cars. |
| 00:11.54 | SpeedEvil | Which is 4-5* as efficient as filliment. |
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| 00:12.18 | pavelm | speed: Yep, I see. |
| 00:12.19 | SpeedEvil | (though there are now other colours of light available in that form factor) |
| 00:12.51 | pavelm | benji: I have seen 1W led... and they seem expensive. Light is nice, but I do not think it can compete with 100W of car's frontlight. |
| 00:13.17 | benJIman | pavelm: 100W car front lights are halogen or similar, extremely inefficient |
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| 00:13.53 | SpeedEvil | Actually - not. They are around 20lm/W. |
| 00:14.01 | SpeedEvil | The _best_ LEDs are around 4 times that. |
| 00:14.18 | pavelm | 55W HID should should be enough.. unfortunately batteries for that would be heavy. |
| 00:14.18 | benJIman | They put out stupid amounts of heat |
| 00:14.22 | SpeedEvil | You can get LEDs which will put out a comparable amount of light - well clusters. |
| 00:14.40 | SpeedEvil | But they use more like 20W than 1W. |
| 00:14.45 | pavelm | speed: But we are talking $300 for such a system in LEDs, right? |
| 00:14.52 | SpeedEvil | About that. |
| 00:14.54 | benJIman | clusters arn't as bright eraly |
| 00:15.05 | benJIman | http://extreme-geek.blogspot.com/2006/11/fire-starter-flashlight.html this torch is quite impressive |
| 00:16.00 | pavelm | ..actually, two B class batteries are ~12Whours. |
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| 00:17.11 | pavelm | ...enough to power 20W for half an hour. That's good enough... as long as it can go on 1W and less, too. |
| 00:17.36 | pavelm | how big light is in average motorbike? |
| 00:17.43 | pavelm | ...that one should be enough for a horse ;-). |
| 00:17.51 | SpeedEvil | I think they are typically around 30W. |
| 00:17.57 | SpeedEvil | It may be more on larger bikes. |
| 00:18.21 | SpeedEvil | I don't know how much floodlight vs spill you want. |
| 00:18.32 | SpeedEvil | I.E. a spotlight, or a more wide angle light. |
| 00:18.37 | SpeedEvil | Is this for riding on roads? |
| 00:19.13 | pavelm | speed: not roads. basically terain. (Horses suck on roads, as the surface is too hard) |
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| 00:20.28 | pavelm | speed: top speed is ~40kph... you basically want to have light everywhere around, as that is useful for orientation. |
| 00:20.33 | pavelm | ...and top speed is not that big. |
| 00:20.56 | SpeedEvil | I wonder if the horse could learn to use a head-mounted light. |
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| 00:21.12 | SpeedEvil | A light mounted on its head I mean. |
| 00:21.25 | SpeedEvil | As one on the rider I could understand would be deeply anoying. |
| 00:22.03 | pavelm | speed: I actually placed head-mounted light on horse's head |
| 00:22.06 | pavelm | speed: it worked okay. |
| 00:23.05 | rwhitby | (don't forget that some people read the logs of these channels from overnight their time, and are still expecting to see reasonably on-topic discussion.) |
| 00:23.18 | SpeedEvil | Personally, I'd ask over on the candlpowerforums.com site, and ask there. Rather than here :) |
| 00:23.45 | pavelm | rwhitby: Ok :-) |
| 00:24.02 | pavelm | rwhitby: Still LED on the phone would be very useful. |
| 00:24.18 | rwhitby | pavelm: indeed. |
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| 00:29.49 | emulsion | anyone want to sell me their neo1973? |
| 00:30.04 | SpeedEvil | Nobody actually has one yet. |
| 00:30.15 | SuN | How about a Zaurus? |
| 00:30.18 | SpeedEvil | It's 'late march' before you can buy for $350. |
| 00:30.27 | emulsion | somebody has one. |
| 00:30.40 | SpeedEvil | Not with actual case. AIUI. |
| 00:31.29 | emulsion | Sean does. I wonder how much for his? |
| 00:31.38 | emulsion | I just can't wait |
| 00:32.41 | SpeedEvil | Ask on the mailing list if you really want to try. |
| 00:32.58 | SpeedEvil | It might be fun actually ebaying one of the dev phones to raise interest. |
| 00:33.17 | SpeedEvil | (I mean FIC doing it, not one of the devs) |
| 00:33.18 | emulsion | naa, I'll wait. Yea, that's a great idea, to ebay one. |
| 00:33.26 | pavelm | emulsion: Mail said 7% of the batch was successful... so there's more than Sean's phone. |
| 00:33.41 | emulsion | cool |
| 00:34.07 | SpeedEvil | 7% yield for the bluetooth module cable IIRC. That may not translate into 7% of the first batch of phones. |
| 00:34.46 | emulsion | so bluetooth will be available, after that last email, I couldn't figure out if they were going to have btooth or not |
| 00:34.51 | SpeedEvil | Yes. |
| 00:34.57 | pavelm | speed: Aha, I probably misparsed that email. |
| 00:35.01 | SpeedEvil | Bluetooth is available, wifi/camera is not. |
| 00:35.19 | emulsion | thought so, good choice |
| 00:35.20 | SpeedEvil | The wiki has what's in and what's not, and what people would like. |
| 00:35.44 | SpeedEvil | I added up mass estimates for all teh things people would like, and it added around 300g to the phone. |
| 00:35.50 | pavelm | speed: That beast is not going to have a camera? |
| 00:35.55 | SpeedEvil | No :( |
| 00:36.13 | SpeedEvil | Not at least for the first revision (on sale in november) |
| 00:36.21 | SpeedEvil | September |
| 00:36.31 | SpeedEvil | the one announced in Sep may or may not have wifi/camera. |
| 00:36.43 | pavelm | speed: I forgot to check... I thought noone even does phones w/o cameras these days. |
| 00:37.02 | pavelm | speed: I will not miss one.... camera in phone is usable... as a sensor for turning of phone backlight. |
| 00:37.30 | SpeedEvil | I find many more uses for it - not taking pictures of people, but pricelabels in shops, ... |
| 00:37.41 | SpeedEvil | I can live without it with voice notes. |
| 00:38.04 | SpeedEvil | Cameraless phones are also needed for some that can't have cameras on phones at work. |
| 00:38.16 | emulsion | why do you take pics of pricelabels? |
| 00:38.23 | emulsion | just curious |
| 00:38.50 | pavelm | speed: Actually, I seen one cool use for phone's camera. Remove infrared filter and add superbright IR leds... for night vision system. |
| 00:38.51 | SpeedEvil | Because if I'm wandering round a shop, just for general interest, and not actually intending to buy stuff, I can have a nice easy to read later note of what it is and how much it is. |
| 00:38.52 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 00:39.19 | pavelm | speed: and with some 2mpix / AF cameras in ericsson phones... that may actually be usable for taking pictures. |
| 00:39.33 | SpeedEvil | Indeed. Some phone cameras are getting to not suck. |
| 00:39.50 | emulsion | it's about time |
| 00:40.01 | pavelm | (Unfortunately AF is expensive AFAICT, so it will not appear in openmoko series.) |
| 00:40.18 | emulsion | that's fine with me, |
| 00:40.37 | SpeedEvil | Upgradable/removable camera would be nice, though complex. |
| 00:41.17 | pavelm | speed: I do not think upgradable anything is viable for as small beast as a cellphone :-( |
| 00:42.17 | jbnet | barcode reader? |
| 00:42.37 | jbnet | I've heard of software barcode readers |
| 00:42.45 | SpeedEvil | Well - As long as you don't want it trivially upgradable. A camera that's removable from the back with screws, when the battery cover is opened is a possibility, with a flat connector to the PCB. |
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| 00:43.27 | jbnet | one of my friends' senior projects in school was a software barcode reader, the idea is the phone would automatically do price comparisons |
| 00:43.31 | SpeedEvil | It's not easy, and wastes some space, but given that the camera is going to want the full depth of the phone anyway, it's not that bad. |
| 00:43.44 | pavelm | speed: unfortunately 2mpix/AF assembly is likely going to be much bigger than normal VGA resolution beast. |
| 00:43.54 | noidd | ~convert 6500SWF to USD |
| 00:44.12 | noidd | ~convert 6500 CHF to USD |
| 00:44.20 | noidd | hmm |
| 00:44.55 | SpeedEvil | Quite a lot. A fixed focus 1MP or so camera wouldn't be too bad. And can be modestly improved as time goes on. |
| 00:45.20 | pavelm | speed: As long as it is fixed focus... it can't be usable. |
| 00:45.23 | rwhitby | someone design a camera add-on which fits in the semicircular hole. plenty of space there. |
| 00:45.42 | SpeedEvil | not really. |
| 00:45.52 | SpeedEvil | Ad it's next to the antenna, which will screw that up. |
| 00:45.58 | pavelm | speed: I did some _nice_ pictures with 1.3MPix /AF /3x optical zoom beasts; not good enough for large prints, but good enough for screen. |
| 00:46.52 | SpeedEvil | pavelm: yeah - there are so many compromises round small hardware. Adding more constraints (upgradability) is horrible. |
| 00:47.41 | SpeedEvil | rwhitby: I'm pretty sure a camera can be fitted in a 5mm thicker back. Along with some other stuff. Making it aimable as well is fun. |
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| 00:49.50 | Elrond | I can see one use of a camera: If it's connected with OCR/festival: It can be used to read stuff to people with bad eyes. ;) |
| 00:49.57 | SpeedEvil | I've got to be driving long distances tomorrow, so better roll over and go to sleep. |
| 00:51.03 | Elrond | Yeah. Good night people. :) |
| 00:51.30 | pavelm | Good night everyone |
| 00:53.22 | Lunved | rwhitby: Thanks for the help yesterday. Have successfully built now. I would have take ages to find the dash thing ... |
| 00:53.49 | rwhitby | Lunved: glad to help other developers. I'm building svn head now ... |
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| 02:34.00 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03rwhitby * r7 10mokomakefile/trunk/ (6 files in 2 dirs): Now builds openmoko svn HEAD revision, as of 20070218. |
| 02:34.42 | rwhitby | Still can't release that until the projects.openmoko.org anonymous svn access is fixed ... |
| 02:35.38 | aevin | hmm. |
| 02:35.52 | aevin | keep up the good work, rwhitby :-) |
| 02:36.14 | aevin | btw, what time zone to you belong to? |
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| 02:36.54 | rwhitby | http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=5 |
| 02:41.00 | aevin | okay, i was just wondering. you seem to always be around :-) i'm stuck in CET (UTC+1h), .no |
| 02:44.02 | jebba | rwhitby, you gonna update it here too? http://www.rwhitby.net/files/openmoko/ thanks for this, btw :) |
| 02:44.27 | rwhitby | jebba: "Still can't release that until the projects.openmoko.org anonymous svn access is fixed ..." |
| 02:45.49 | rwhitby | aevin: I often leave the laptop running overnight building stuff ... |
| 02:46.27 | rwhitby | jebba: if anon svn is not fixed in the next 24 hours, I'll implement a different means of getting the required patches. |
| 02:48.55 | jebba | i think koen said most everything was already in OE, at least for now.... |
| 02:49.30 | jebba | perhaps if your Makefile points at that it will encourage a quicker migration/merge of the two repos (which will make the whole thing a lot easier for new devels coming onboard) |
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| 02:57.37 | aevin | i'm reading about the flash partitioning and the BBT (bad block table). why is it desirable to distinguish between factory-bad flash blocks and worn-out flash blocks? |
| 02:59.43 | rwhitby | jebba: no, that would just make more trouble for the core team with ext devs reporting bugs in stuff that the core team is not using yet. |
| 03:00.05 | rwhitby | koen's work and my work are both needed until the core team does the merge. |
| 03:00.28 | jebba | ah ya. agreed |
| 03:02.19 | aevin | jebba, rwhitby: are you both phase 0 devs? |
| 03:03.58 | rwhitby | I am. |
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| 03:08.08 | jebba | aevin i'm not. |
| 03:08.20 | aevin | okay. i'm aiming for a phase 1 device. |
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| 03:21.13 | Mortimus | counter |
| 03:21.14 | aloril | P0: a week, 3 days 08:38:46 (4.360 - 10.360 days); P1: 26.360 - 41.360; P2: 194.360 - 224.360 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (357) |
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| 04:12.49 | jebba | hmm, what was the "uboot-mkimage: command not found" fix again? :) |
| 04:17.25 | rwhitby | add ${STAGING_BINDIR}/ before it. |
| 04:24.44 | aloril | rwhitby: js-1.5 and rxvt-unicode-7.9 source have moved (I guess you know at least js-1.5 already, its mentioned in wiki, rxvt is not mentioned) |
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| 04:49.53 | rwhitby | aloril: did you do "make sources" for js? |
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| 05:09.56 | aloril | rwhitby: I just copied js-1.5.tar.gz from older compile try and touch build/tmp/stamps/armv4t-linux/js-1.5-r0.do_fetch |
| 05:13.00 | empty_mind | rwhitby, i am unable to find cause of this error. Help would be apreciated. http://pastebin.com/884137 |
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| 05:16.36 | jebba | empty_mind: I think the reason for this is that this file has been renamed: |
| 05:16.36 | jebba | e-data-server-util.h to e-util.h |
| 05:17.20 | aloril | rwhitby: it seems sources disappear/move places quite often ;-) |
| 05:17.47 | empty_mind | jebba, then why it is not fixed when i do a checkout? do_fetch succeds |
| 05:18.14 | empty_mind | jebba, or should i wait before retring |
| 05:19.42 | jebba | aloril and empty_mind are talking about different missing files. The e-util.h empty_mind issue is due to it changing names in upstream tarball. The aloril rxvt/js issue is due to upstream moving files on their ftp servers. The latter has been fixed in OE, but the openmoko snapshot is older than js-1.6, which replaces js-1.5 |
| 05:52.19 | CM | Hehe: http://xkcd.com/c225.html |
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| 06:34.44 | xkr47 | nice that openmoko is wanting to support USB DFU [ http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/USB_DFU ] |
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| 07:17.34 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03rwhitby * r8 10mokomakefile/trunk/Makefile: Reduced all lines to under 80 chars |
| 07:22.22 | ninHer | g'day all |
| 07:25.53 | rwhitby | g'day ninHer |
| 07:26.08 | ninHer | hi rwhitby |
| 07:28.36 | _law_ | hi, is openmoko designed to work without a touchscreen? |
| 07:28.47 | xkr47 | lol why ?-) |
| 07:29.15 | rwhitby | bluetooth keyboard, for one reason ... |
| 07:29.27 | _law_ | usewith a smartphone... |
| 07:29.47 | rwhitby | (don't want to be continually swapping hands between keyboard and stylus/screen) |
| 07:29.50 | xkr47 | ah you mean like "work with other input methods than the touchscreen" |
| 07:29.59 | xkr47 | aha |
| 07:30.22 | _law_ | xkr47, right |
| 07:30.54 | xkr47 | well at least I know gtk support switching input methods |
| 07:31.32 | xkr47 | I hope the touchscreen input is/was possible to implement as an input method, then you can change it from the commandline |
| 07:31.51 | rwhitby | _law_: operation from a keyboard only would be one of my key use cases - I almost *never* take the stylus of the it's hole when I'm using my Treo650. |
| 07:32.47 | _law_ | rwhitby, so it will be supported? |
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| 07:50.50 | SpeedEvil | Look at the general look+ffeel documenttion. |
| 07:51.14 | SpeedEvil | If the pop-up-keyboard - when it pops up by default accepts keyboard input, then it all just works. |
| 07:51.52 | SpeedEvil | There are several input methods for text - finger + numeric keypad, ... keyboard will be one. |
| 07:53.29 | *** join/#openmoko meandtheshell (n=markus@85-124-207-204.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at) |
| 07:53.33 | jebba | those keys look awfully small. perhaps a rotated view of the keyboard + input window only |
| 07:54.44 | rwhitby | _law_: it will depend on the community making things are supported - it's open source |
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| 08:01.10 | tigert | hm. no hackergotchis on your planet? |
| 08:09.51 | hrw | morning |
| 08:12.33 | tigert | morn |
| 08:16.12 | *** join/#openmoko friedel (n=fwolff@dsl-241-155-70.telkomadsl.co.za) |
| 08:18.09 | SpeedEvil | http://www.google.com/trends?q=openmoko%2Cneo1973%2Ciphone&ctab=1&geo=all&date=all A little way to go :) |
| 08:20.42 | xkr47 | SpeedEvil, hehe I just noticed your wiki change :) |
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| 08:33.06 | xkr47 | hmm, is sean going to be in Tampere, Finland on wednesday? |
| 08:33.38 | xkr47 | seems www.coss.fi is having some seminar then |
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| 08:47.27 | xkr47 | SpeedEvil, is it really 100000? |
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| 08:49.40 | SpeedEvil | Yes - you have to search for flash with much lower endurance these days. |
| 08:49.55 | SpeedEvil | It's typically found only in stuff like small microcontrollers program memory. |
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| 08:51.24 | xkr47 | nice to know, thanks for updating :) |
| 08:51.44 | buz | write balancing is done by jffs2 right? |
| 08:51.55 | buz | and on sd/usb sticks in hardware |
| 08:52.17 | buz | (2G sd cards with jffs is not really feasible) |
| 08:52.17 | SpeedEvil | Yes. |
| 08:52.47 | buz | as iirc jffs2 needs to scan the WHOLE volume upon mounting |
| 08:52.58 | xkr47 | SpeedEvil, how about "1000 erase cycles guaranteed for the first block" on the same page, is it still valid info? |
| 08:53.07 | SpeedEvil | memory cards have their own little chip to do it. |
| 08:53.17 | xkr47 | but the internal NAND does not ? |
| 08:53.24 | buz | i think not |
| 08:53.30 | SpeedEvil | Because the first block is guaranteed to have 1000 cycles without error correction. |
| 08:53.32 | buz | NAND is as pure flash as it comes |
| 08:53.50 | xkr47 | SpeedEvil, ok |
| 08:53.51 | buz | first block really only matters for uboot hackers ig uess |
| 08:53.58 | SpeedEvil | It then has 99000 cycles after which the error correction code can take care of it. |
| 08:54.11 | buz | i hope not |
| 08:54.12 | SpeedEvil | But, boot code can't really use ECC. |
| 08:54.19 | buz | thats a nice way to brick your machine |
| 08:54.37 | xkr47 | :) |
| 08:54.42 | SpeedEvil | 1000 updates should be enough for anyone :) |
| 08:54.44 | xkr47 | SpeedEvil, ok.. maybe that could be mentioned also on the wiki.. :) |
| 08:55.03 | buz | is the error correction code in the s3c? or in the nand chip |
| 08:56.01 | xkr47 | with one update a week, 1000 updates will still give 20 years worth of updates :) |
| 08:56.20 | xkr47 | buz, it sounds to me it's in software |
| 08:56.31 | buz | mhh that means you lose space right? |
| 08:56.50 | *** join/#openmoko quinton (n=quinton@84-45-151-51.no-dns-yet.enta.net) |
| 08:57.09 | Magon | develepers going to have something like 10 updates per day |
| 08:57.45 | buz | not necessarily |
| 08:58.10 | buz | unless they are in fact hacking uboot |
| 08:58.26 | Magon | keeping everything in ram? |
| 08:58.27 | buz | and the ones who really do that will probably get free devices anyhow |
| 08:58.45 | buz | not but you dont need to update uboot just to try your new app |
| 08:58.53 | buz | probably not even when you change a wee bit in your kernel |
| 08:59.32 | Magon | i forgot that you can mount rootfs via nfs |
| 09:00.00 | buz | yeah that too |
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| 09:00.30 | buz | but since rootfs has write balancing, you can easily write years of data to it |
| 09:01.07 | buz | just dont start using it as swap |
| 09:01.39 | buz | i think when fast 16GB flash breaks the 100$ barrier i will convert my laptop to flash |
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| 09:13.25 | Stephmw | mornin |
| 09:16.03 | Magon | <PROTECTED> |
| 09:16.10 | Magon | in package gconf-osso |
| 09:16.18 | Magon | have anyone idea how to fix it? |
| 09:16.35 | Victor_ | hello |
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| 09:19.03 | xkr47 | buz, make a raid-1 array while you're at it :) |
| 09:19.13 | Victor_ | http://www.fourmigration.com/link.php?pid=15&cont=5 |
| 09:19.24 | buz | well two flash chips ;) |
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| 09:19.36 | buz | raid between flash and hd is sort of besides the point |
| 09:20.33 | buz | that is actually one of my main critique points about laptops |
| 09:20.38 | buz | you basically cant get raid1 |
| 09:21.26 | *** part/#openmoko Victor_ (n=chatzill@ANantes-151-1-71-179.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 09:21.32 | buz | ouch, 16gb compact flash cost 400EUR |
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| 10:04.43 | florian | good morning |
| 10:04.53 | Kaco | morgen |
| 10:06.38 | Magon | can someone give me $PKG_CONFIG env working with building openmoko-devel-image? |
| 10:09.11 | hrw | what for? |
| 10:09.41 | Magon | gconf-osso is failing |
| 10:10.39 | XorA | thats because gconf-osso shoildnt be built |
| 10:11.06 | Magon | so why bitbake openmoko-devel-image is trying to build it? |
| 10:12.30 | Magon | do you have any idea? |
| 10:12.33 | XorA | because somewhere along the line PREFERRED_PROVIDER_gconf = "gconf" is missing |
| 10:12.39 | *** join/#openmoko dom (n=dom@juicy.ecs.soton.ac.uk) |
| 10:12.49 | XorA | most likely a local config error |
| 10:12.57 | *** join/#openmoko dom_ (n=dom@juicy.ecs.soton.ac.uk) |
| 10:13.10 | Magon | where to look first? |
| 10:13.31 | XorA | conf/local.conf conf/disto/openmoko* |
| 10:13.32 | Magon | i am a bit new with OE... |
| 10:14.35 | Magon | thx |
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| 10:26.37 | *** join/#openmoko LuitvD (n=luitvd@beigetower/luitvd) |
| 10:26.42 | LuitvD | hello there |
| 10:27.39 | Lazerdye | Hi, I am trying to build using Rod's MokoMakefile, but I end up with this error building libtool-native: "source directory already configured; run "make distclean" there first" which persists even if I clean everything out and start from scratch. |
| 10:28.02 | koen | Lazerdye: you didn't read the docs |
| 10:28.17 | koen | Lazerdye: especially the section about not having symlinks in the path |
| 10:28.41 | LuitvD | aarhg, I hate being too young to apply for summer of code :( |
| 10:28.51 | Lazerdye | koen: yeah, that's it then. |
| 10:29.11 | LuitvD | koen: symlinks in $PATH? |
| 10:29.23 | LuitvD | koen: why would you want that? |
| 10:29.40 | hrw | LuitvD: in $PWD |
| 10:29.49 | LuitvD | ah |
| 10:29.51 | LuitvD | hmmm... |
| 10:29.54 | koen | http://www.openembedded.org/wiki/GettingStarted , section " Setting up the toolchain and doing a build" |
| 10:30.02 | Stephmw | LuitvD: how young is too young? 16< ? |
| 10:30.12 | LuitvD | Stephmw: minimum age is 18 |
| 10:30.14 | LuitvD | :'( |
| 10:31.30 | Stephmw | LuitvD: drat |
| 10:31.49 | LuitvD | Stephmw: what? |
| 10:32.24 | Stephmw | LuitvD: just feel sorry for you ;) |
| 10:32.33 | LuitvD | thanks :P |
| 10:33.02 | LuitvD | it's nice google gives every student attendant 5000 dollars :) |
| 10:33.10 | koen | wrong |
| 10:33.13 | *** join/#openmoko cprf_ (n=rzinkov@oss-staff.rutgers.edu) |
| 10:33.13 | koen | $4500 |
| 10:33.23 | LuitvD | (4500 for the student and 500 for the organisation, i know) |
| 10:33.33 | LuitvD | :P |
| 10:33.37 | LuitvD | easy |
| 10:33.43 | LuitvD | :| |
| 10:33.43 | hrw | LuitvD: and only if student got accepted and his/her work will be finally accepted by mentor |
| 10:33.54 | LuitvD | hrw: yeah... |
| 10:34.38 | LuitvD | hrw: though I guess the people whi get accepted somewhat automatically is good enaugh to get his/her work accepted by the mentor... |
| 10:34.44 | LuitvD | s/whi/who/ |
| 10:34.54 | LuitvD | s/is/are/ |
| 10:35.08 | LuitvD | darn... can only regexp-replace one word :P |
| 10:35.24 | LuitvD | s/can/test/ s/only/this/ |
| 10:35.26 | LuitvD | ... |
| 10:35.31 | LuitvD | nope... :P sorry |
| 10:35.46 | hrw | LuitvD: not aways |
| 10:35.50 | hrw | LuitvD: not always |
| 10:36.15 | LuitvD | zomg, the Amsterdam police is going to organise rap-battles to get new cops :P |
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| 10:53.17 | pengwen_ | request permission to complain a bit? |
| 10:54.10 | XorA | DENIED |
| 10:54.13 | xkr47 | :) |
| 10:54.20 | hrw | -ENOPERM |
| 10:54.38 | pengwen | hihi |
| 10:54.39 | xkr47 | -EAGAIN |
| 10:54.45 | xkr47 | -EALREADY |
| 10:55.55 | LaF0rge | -ECHAN |
| 10:57.18 | Robot101 | -EBADE |
| 10:57.27 | LuitvD | -EBULLSHIT |
| 10:57.42 | ynezz | -enowifi lol!1 |
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| 11:10.25 | LuitvD | ynezz: :( |
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| 11:19.02 | rob_w | NOTE: package gta01-kernel-2.6-moko7-r1: task do_fetch: failed |
| 11:21.45 | fluffs | hehe; http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/open_source.png |
| 11:23.18 | koen | xkcd rocks |
| 11:23.39 | rob_w | i also like userfriendly.org |
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| 11:25.05 | xkr47 | fluffs, :) |
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| 11:39.41 | Lunved | FWIW I got around the e-data-server-util.h missing issue with http://pastebin.com/884287 |
| 11:40.28 | Lunved | I have to go now, but I'll wiki'ify it tomorrow (UTC+10) if no-one else has by then .... |
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| 12:00.37 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03werner * r1042 10/developers/werner/splash-jtag/ (. README img.pl): Load a splash screen image into the frame buffer with JTAG. |
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| 12:09.10 | Elrond | Does u-boot yet support console on usb? |
| 12:10.21 | noidd | mornin |
| 12:10.31 | CoreDump|home | morning |
| 12:13.06 | LuitvD | mornin' |
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| 12:22.11 | hrw | Elrond: yes |
| 12:25.29 | Elrond | hrw - So unless I brick u-boot itself, it should be possible to unbrick a neo using usb (and a microsd card)? |
| 12:25.50 | Elrond | ... with current u-boot. |
| 12:26.23 | koen | no |
| 12:26.33 | koen | unbricking requires jtag |
| 12:26.43 | koen | if it doesn't require jtag, it wasn't bricked |
| 12:27.53 | Elrond | Okay... s/bricked/b0rked kernel image or alike/ |
| 12:32.10 | *** join/#openmoko zmeiat_joro (n=krum@83.228.11.132) |
| 12:32.25 | CM | koen: I know you're a real digg fanboy, so this must be your dream case: http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/2007/02/digg_custom_cas.html ;) |
| 12:46.11 | SuN | NIcely done! |
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| 12:48.18 | sixfeet | tach |
| 12:51.18 | Elrond | Hi sixfeet |
| 12:51.34 | sixfeet | hi Elrond |
| 12:51.45 | sixfeet | counter |
| 12:51.45 | aloril | P0: a week, 2 days 23:08:14 (3.964 - 9.964 days); P1: 25.964 - 40.964; P2: 193.964 - 223.964 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (358) |
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| 12:52.06 | noidd | that p0 has been a week for the last week :-P |
| 12:55.15 | sixfeet | so we have to wait |
| 12:55.51 | LuitvD | :P |
| 12:56.12 | LuitvD | noidd: see that range specified? |
| 12:56.26 | LuitvD | could be 4 days, could be 10 days :P |
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| 13:59.47 | CM | aloril: Already 66 people on it: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Buying_Interest_List |
| 14:00.14 | LuitvD | CM: :) isn't that great? |
| 14:00.41 | CM | Sure is :) |
| 14:00.49 | mitsuhiko | what do i have to do to receive a neo1973 before september 2007? |
| 14:01.05 | CM | mitsuhiko: Order it and pay $350 :) |
| 14:01.13 | mitsuhiko | CM: where? :) |
| 14:01.20 | CM | counter |
| 14:01.20 | aloril | P0: a week, 2 days 21:58:39 (3.916 - 9.916 days); P1: 25.916 - 40.916; P2: 193.916 - 223.916 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (359) |
| 14:01.24 | LuitvD | mitsuhiko: that's not known yet |
| 14:01.31 | mitsuhiko | i would really like to port a few applications to that device |
| 14:01.43 | CM | mitsuhiko: And it's about 1 month until you can buy it |
| 14:02.10 | mitsuhiko | CM: i thought you can only receive a developer openmoko if you are some kind of developer |
| 14:02.11 | CM | What is it you want to "port"? |
| 14:02.11 | LuitvD | mitsuhiko: drop-by on the wiki or this channel every once in a while, you'll notice when the time is there |
| 14:02.12 | LuitvD | :P |
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| 14:02.32 | mitsuhiko | LuitvD: sure ;) |
| 14:02.40 | LuitvD | mitsuhiko: as long as you pay the price they won't really care ... |
| 14:02.51 | LuitvD | mitsuhiko: beta-testing is fine too ;) |
| 14:03.02 | CM | mitsuhiko: The P0 (Phase Zero) will get theirs for free, but at P1 (Phase one) Anyone who wants to try and help out can buy it |
| 14:03.07 | LuitvD | (and everyone who gets the FIC neo is beta-testing |
| 14:03.10 | *** join/#openmoko cathal (n=cathal@89.100.102.170) |
| 14:03.56 | hrw | mitsuhiko: both already works |
| 14:03.59 | LuitvD | CM: too bad I didn't find out about this project earlyer... the 50 P0 people had already been chosen... |
| 14:04.03 | mitsuhiko | cool |
| 14:04.26 | mitsuhiko | LuitvD: the game? |
| 14:04.28 | CM | LuitvD: Great idea!! |
| 14:04.34 | LuitvD | mitsuhiko: yes |
| 14:04.39 | LuitvD | CM: not mine though :P |
| 14:04.40 | Stephmw | LuitvD: write it and send it to some p0 guys to test :) |
| 14:04.49 | LuitvD | Stephmw: impossible... |
| 14:05.02 | xkr47 | this would allow 3rd party manufacturers to produce addon devices that just snap in instead of the regular back cover |
| 14:05.18 | mitsuhiko | is it possible to start a http server on the neo and connect from the pc to it? |
| 14:05.20 | LuitvD | xkr47: ask for the CAD/CAM layout or something... |
| 14:05.27 | LuitvD | mitsuhiko: sure... |
| 14:05.32 | mitsuhiko | LuitvD: over usb? |
| 14:05.46 | xkr47 | LuitvD, not for me.. just thought it would be nice to have |
| 14:05.47 | LuitvD | mitsuhiko: everything is possible, as long as you can write it ;) |
| 14:06.07 | LuitvD | xkr47: ask them to publish the CAD/CAM drawings |
| 14:06.13 | xkr47 | :) |
| 14:06.30 | mitsuhiko | ah. ethernet over usb would work. nice |
| 14:06.53 | mitsuhiko | LuitvD: if python is already running that's enough for me :) |
| 14:06.56 | LuitvD | mitsuhiko: you might have to write your own drivers... but maybe even those are available |
| 14:07.09 | mitsuhiko | jeü |
| 14:07.14 | mitsuhiko | s/ü/p/ |
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| 14:07.47 | LuitvD | mitsuhiko: and because it's linux, many programs can be easily ported |
| 14:08.09 | LuitvD | so getting apache running on openmoko is practically done already |
| 14:08.14 | LuitvD | XorA: heuh? |
| 14:08.15 | mitsuhiko | LuitvD: just because it's linux that does not mean the application will run on arm processors |
| 14:08.26 | XorA | LuitvD: you said that word |
| 14:08.31 | LuitvD | mitsuhiko: with the right compiler you can port it yourself? |
| 14:08.37 | hrw | and again |
| 14:08.37 | LuitvD | XorA: err... which one? |
| 14:08.47 | mitsuhiko | LuitvD: port |
| 14:08.48 | XorA | the p**t one |
| 14:08.49 | LuitvD | lol |
| 14:09.03 | LuitvD | what about it? |
| 14:09.12 | LuitvD | s/port/rebuild/ |
| 14:09.15 | LuitvD | ? |
| 14:09.19 | mitsuhiko | hmmm. wine |
| 14:09.20 | xkr47 | 18:40 < koen> 'ported'? |
| 14:09.20 | xkr47 | 18:40 < koen> you mean cross-compiled? |
| 14:09.30 | *** join/#openmoko apardo_ (n=apardo@87.217.145.219) |
| 14:09.32 | LuitvD | ah, recompile :P |
| 14:09.35 | LuitvD | fine with me |
| 14:10.40 | LuitvD | anyways... nearly every open-source program can be recompiled to work on the FIC Neo1973... right? |
| 14:10.50 | mitsuhiko | LuitvD: guess not |
| 14:11.05 | mitsuhiko | there are many programs that don't even compile on 64 bit processors |
| 14:11.57 | LuitvD | well... |
| 14:12.33 | LuitvD | I guess apache can be compiled for arm... |
| 14:13.03 | LuitvD | ... |
| 14:13.04 | CM | LuitvD: Hmm.. Should make an effort to move the Games page from the unofficial wiki to the real one (And btw, I wrote Bridge Builder and Pipe Dreams in that one ;)) |
| 14:13.21 | LuitvD | :P |
| 14:13.52 | LuitvD | the wiki is being slow again... |
| 14:14.03 | LuitvD | has it been slashdotted or something similar? |
| 14:14.20 | etf|work | CM: if you move the Games page can you make sure you title it Wishlist:Games ? |
| 14:14.35 | CM | etf|work: Surely :) |
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| 14:14.51 | etf|work | I'm trying to sort out the fact from the fiction ;) |
| 14:16.10 | xkr47 | minime created a Wishlist category while there is a Ideas category already.. |
| 14:16.36 | etf|work | yeah... hmm which should we use? |
| 14:16.47 | xkr47 | etf|work, you minime ?- |
| 14:16.58 | xkr47 | ?-)* |
| 14:17.07 | etf|work | nope. ericthefish |
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| 14:17.20 | xkr47 | ok sorry :) |
| 14:17.25 | etf|work | no probs |
| 14:17.27 | xkr47 | Ideas (9 links) |
| 14:17.32 | xkr47 | Wishlist (2 links) |
| 14:18.50 | etf|work | I think we should use Ideas then |
| 14:18.56 | xkr47 | me too |
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| 14:19.13 | LuitvD | err... |
| 14:19.15 | xkr47 | maybe I should add "Use Category:Ideas instead" on User_Talk:Minime :) |
| 14:19.24 | LuitvD | but there is a "Hardware Wishlist" and stuff... |
| 14:19.24 | etf|work | sounds good |
| 14:19.31 | etf|work | yeah not sure what to do about those |
| 14:19.42 | xkr47 | woot! |
| 14:19.50 | xkr47 | gaah :) |
| 14:19.57 | LuitvD | why not Wishlist:Games? |
| 14:20.07 | xkr47 | let's try to keep this sane pls |
| 14:20.08 | LuitvD | Ideas sounds like the GSoC Ideas :P |
| 14:20.10 | mitsuhiko | rofl |
| 14:20.16 | mitsuhiko | who proposed the "alcohol sensor"? |
| 14:20.24 | etf|work | hahaha |
| 14:20.24 | LuitvD | heheheh |
| 14:20.29 | LuitvD | not me... |
| 14:20.36 | LuitvD | but I'd love to have it on mine (A) |
| 14:20.43 | Fletch | does some1 know if openttd (transport tycoon deluxe) will be port on neo? |
| 14:20.50 | CM | Ok, Ideas or Wishlist? |
| 14:21.02 | CM | Fletch: Some guy said he'd work on that |
| 14:21.08 | Fletch | :) |
| 14:21.11 | mitsuhiko | the aerometer would be a good idea indeed |
| 14:21.14 | LuitvD | Fletch: Possibly... There's enough people willing to work on that :P |
| 14:21.15 | koen | does it need porting? |
| 14:21.16 | etf|work | I think everbody wishes the ideas will be implemented, so wishlist gets my vote |
| 14:21.20 | LuitvD | koen: :) |
| 14:21.23 | koen | openttd already runs fine on my ipaq |
| 14:21.24 | mitsuhiko | just look at the iphone. they use it for automatically rotating images |
| 14:21.35 | LuitvD | koen: on what os? |
| 14:21.43 | koen | linux, duh..... |
| 14:21.47 | CM | xkr47: Ok, I'm with you on that :) |
| 14:21.50 | Fletch | is it playable with the screen size? |
| 14:22.32 | mutrox | it has an x86 based processor ,isn't it? |
| 14:22.46 | LuitvD | Fletch: some screenshots on the official OpenTTD site are 640x480 :P |
| 14:23.00 | koen | mutrox: what has? |
| 14:23.08 | koen | both the iphone and neo are ARM |
| 14:23.22 | mutrox | ok |
| 14:23.26 | LuitvD | most smartphones are ARM |
| 14:23.45 | LuitvD | many use TI's OMAP chips... |
| 14:24.07 | Fletch | sure it runs in 640x480, i mean playable cause its on 2,8" screen |
| 14:24.21 | LuitvD | Fletch: if it isn't you should get some glasses ;) |
| 14:24.31 | LuitvD | s/some/a pair of/ |
| 14:24.32 | XorA | get an old gameboy magnifier |
| 14:24.37 | LuitvD | lol |
| 14:24.38 | mutrox | so things had to be recompiled to arm arquitecture |
| 14:24.50 | Fletch | ^^ |
| 14:26.11 | mutrox | I was talkin about neo |
| 14:26.35 | mutrox | the interesting one ;) |
| 14:30.14 | Stephmw | ~V12 |
| 14:30.23 | apt | v12 is, like, the next must-have in the Neo1973, http://www.ultimatestupidity.com/pics/1/diesel/ |
| 14:31.46 | Stephmw | I'm sorry, it just had to be done. |
| 14:33.12 | SpeedEvil | The alcohol sensor at least can be constructed according to known physics. |
| 14:33.22 | SpeedEvil | I'm more worried about the teleporter. |
| 14:33.27 | xkr47 | Stephmw, :) |
| 14:34.05 | SpeedEvil | Is there a way to search the wiki saying 'yes, I really want the search results even if there is an exactly matching pagename? |
| 14:34.24 | etf|work | SpeedEvil: Doesn't the search button do that (rather than the Go button) |
| 14:34.24 | xkr47 | yeah, click the "Search" button |
| 14:34.29 | SpeedEvil | Ah. |
| 14:34.48 | SpeedEvil | I was hitting enter. |
| 14:34.54 | xkr47 | we all were :) |
| 14:35.35 | xkr47 | the wiki currently has an average of two edits per minute :O |
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| 14:40.44 | MetaMorfoziS | eeeee |
| 14:40.45 | MetaMorfoziS | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Image:Gta01b_v3_bottom.jpg |
| 14:41.01 | MetaMorfoziS | what is that gray (wifi-like) connector near bottom left? |
| 14:41.35 | etf|work | CM: Can I move your Wish List:Games page to Wishlist:Games just for consistancy sake? sorry |
| 14:41.52 | CM | etf|work: Sure, sorry for the _ |
| 14:42.19 | etf|work | it's ok |
| 14:42.21 | xkr47 | :) |
| 14:42.24 | Stephmw | MetaMorfoziS: wifi-like? I'm not sure I understand |
| 14:42.35 | xkr47 | I see ony a grey cable, no connector |
| 14:42.40 | MetaMorfoziS | that gray cable is like a wifi antenna conenctor |
| 14:42.46 | MetaMorfoziS | on it's end |
| 14:44.29 | CM | etf|work: I'm off to a meeting, but I'll look at that page later. It needs to be cleaned up :) |
| 14:44.52 | etf|work | CM: ok if I find time I'll see what I can clean up |
| 14:44.53 | CM | I put a notice to go edit the official one in the unofficial too. |
| 14:45.03 | etf|work | excellent |
| 14:45.14 | xkr47 | MetaMorfoziS, "Immediately above this with the grey wire connection is the connection to the built in GPS antenna." |
| 14:45.18 | CM | Don't want to remove that one yet |
| 14:45.19 | MetaMorfoziS | so, what is that cable's function? |
| 14:45.20 | xkr47 | MetaMorfoziS, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Disassembling_Neo1973 |
| 14:45.28 | MetaMorfoziS | oh okay |
| 14:46.09 | MetaMorfoziS | yes i see |
| 14:46.11 | MetaMorfoziS | :/ |
| 14:46.17 | MetaMorfoziS | i thought the project changed |
| 14:46.20 | MetaMorfoziS | and wifi planned:D |
| 14:48.20 | SpeedEvil | It's planned - it won't be for the first release of phones (late march) |
| 14:48.53 | SpeedEvil | Exactly when it will resolve into hardware is an open question, and |
| 14:49.24 | SpeedEvil | at least there has been statements saying that people buying earlier hardware get some credit towards upgrades. |
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| 14:51.27 | MetaMorfoziS | what is that x name that it uses? i'm not found in wiki |
| 14:51.45 | SpeedEvil | that what? |
| 14:52.10 | MetaMorfoziS | mini x? or how it named |
| 14:52.18 | SpeedEvil | How is what named? |
| 14:52.19 | MetaMorfoziS | it's a separated x11 project iirc, not? |
| 14:52.29 | MetaMorfoziS | the x that neo uses |
| 14:52.32 | MetaMorfoziS | X |
| 14:52.42 | SpeedEvil | I'm pretty sure it's stock. |
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| 14:53.40 | CoreDump|home | SpeedEvil: ahem, a stock "x11" wouldn't fit into the neos flash. I'm pretty certain it uses Kdrive, a small X server for embebedded devices |
| 14:53.45 | SpeedEvil | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMokoFramework |
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| 14:54.15 | SpeedEvil | says libX11 (7.1) |
| 14:54.25 | pengwen | can i whine abit now then? |
| 14:54.41 | koen | SpeedEvil: it's kdrive + dietx11 |
| 14:54.45 | Harlekin | CoreDump|home: why not |
| 14:55.00 | Harlekin | CoreDump|home: x.org is quite modular |
| 14:55.07 | SpeedEvil | Can't find any detail on it. |
| 14:55.08 | SpeedEvil | ah. |
| 14:55.20 | MetaMorfoziS | dietx:D |
| 14:55.35 | koen | SpeedEvil: Use The Source (TM) |
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| 14:56.56 | Elrond | RTFS? ;o) |
| 14:57.05 | MetaMorfoziS | :) |
| 14:57.06 | *** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru) |
| 14:57.35 | koen | just look at the output if 'bitbake -s' or 'bitbake -nv openmoko-image' |
| 14:58.05 | CoreDump|home | Harlekin: well, there has to be _some_ reason people put up w/ kdrive and friends. If it isn't installed-size I dunno what it could be |
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| 15:00.02 | prpplague | CoreDump|home: generally speaking the kdrive is optomized for lower speed processors |
| 15:01.46 | prpplague | CoreDump|home: x11 has developed alot of legacy support stuff over the years, x.org has made some progress at cleaning that up, but kdrive was originally developed to run on smaller processors such as the sa-1100 |
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| 15:02.15 | CoreDump|home | prpplague: thanks for clearing that up =) |
| 15:03.02 | *** join/#openmoko amarsh04 (n=amarsh04@CPE-124-177-196-211.sa.bigpond.net.au) |
| 15:03.11 | prpplague | CoreDump|home: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KDrive fairly accurate description |
| 15:03.17 | *** join/#openmoko PBeck (i=PBeck@unixboard/users/pbeck) |
| 15:03.22 | PBeck | hi |
| 15:04.27 | CoreDump|home | prpplague: that article speaks of Kdrive in the past-tense (sic?) heh |
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| 15:05.50 | prpplague | CoreDump|home: yea, not sure why, since its still actively used |
| 15:06.13 | koen | kdrive is now --with-kdrive from a regular xorg tarball |
| 15:06.20 | jannu | "As of X.Org Server version 7.1, the KDrive framework was integrated into the reference implementation and is now part ofthe generic source code release of the server." |
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| 15:07.08 | MetaMorfoziS | how the on screen touchpad usable, on a 43.2 x 57.6 display? |
| 15:07.23 | MetaMorfoziS | i saw a screenshot from an onscreen qwerty keyboard |
| 15:07.51 | koen | MetaMorfoziS: no, you sprobably aw a mockup |
| 15:07.51 | hrw|gone | MetaMorfoziS: MOCKUP |
| 15:07.52 | jannu | That's designed to be used with a stylus |
| 15:07.59 | hrw | re |
| 15:08.33 | Elrond | Is someone working on the onscreen keyboard? |
| 15:08.51 | hrw | for me matchbox-keyboard looks ok |
| 15:09.04 | hrw | and it takes custom layouting |
| 15:09.31 | *** join/#openmoko amarsh04 (n=amarsh04@CPE-124-177-196-211.sa.bigpond.net.au) |
| 15:09.36 | jannu | I'm working on mock ups with different layouts |
| 15:10.01 | MetaMorfoziS | it's have an fsck'n big resolution on an extremely little display size:/ |
| 15:10.05 | Stephmw | jannu: how's the butter-fingers layout coming along? |
| 15:10.33 | MetaMorfoziS | the sonyericson's K* series have this size of display (nd 160*120 resolution |
| 15:10.33 | Stephmw | jannu: as I'm seeing myself losing that stylus fairly quickly :) |
| 15:10.38 | jannu | Stephmw: I've got a few layouts, which imho are semi-sane |
| 15:10.55 | CoreDump|home | counter |
| 15:10.56 | aloril | P0: a week, 2 days 20:49:04 (3.867 - 9.867 days); P1: 25.867 - 40.867; P2: 193.867 - 223.867 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (360) |
| 15:11.07 | parag0n | mokomakefile doesnt work :< |
| 15:11.19 | LuitvD | parag0n: no shit, sherlock :P |
| 15:11.21 | jannu | Stephmw: Full qwerty in landscape orientation seems actually usable |
| 15:11.33 | LuitvD | parag0n: sorry :) |
| 15:12.23 | jannu | Stephmw: Provided that the framework has some sort of vocabulary-based auto-correction |
| 15:12.36 | *** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru) |
| 15:16.22 | prpplague | hrw: you see all the latest marvell dev on the list? |
| 15:17.37 | hrw | prpplague: have to check |
| 15:18.37 | hrw | prpplague: argh. was not subscribedin janary and forgot to do it later - will read in a moment |
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| 15:23.56 | hrw | reading |
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| 15:28.15 | Elrond | xkr47 - I'll do that, when I come home ;) |
| 15:28.44 | xkr47 | ?-) |
| 15:29.20 | hrw | prpplague: thanks |
| 15:29.22 | prpplague | hrw: np, just wondering if you were uptodate on it |
| 15:29.42 | prpplague | hrw: np, i've got most of mine working but its a mess, i've started looking at some of those patches |
| 15:30.00 | Elrond | xkr47 - wiki-runabout ;) |
| 15:30.32 | xkr47 | Elrond, I'm adding appropriate categories to applications |
| 15:30.34 | xkr47 | :) |
| 15:31.15 | hrw | prpplague: so we should move to libertas and cowork with them |
| 15:31.37 | hrw | prpplague: and we have user with device with 8305 |
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| 15:34.20 | prpplague | hrw: yea, sounds that way |
| 15:36.48 | LuitvD | :) |
| 15:36.53 | LuitvD | CM: it's cheap already... |
| 15:37.08 | CM | LuitvD: 1gb is, 2gb isn't |
| 15:37.17 | CM | At least not the ones i've seen |
| 15:37.18 | LuitvD | CM: 2GB is too... |
| 15:37.20 | LuitvD | :P |
| 15:37.44 | LuitvD | but it's not cheaper then 1x 1GB :P |
| 15:37.51 | LuitvD | s/1x/2x/ |
| 15:38.19 | CM | No, it's a bit more than 3 times 1gb, at least in Sween |
| 15:38.30 | CM | s/ween/weden/ |
| 15:38.48 | LuitvD | sween lol :) |
| 15:39.14 | LuitvD | sween >> s-ween >> strange weener? |
| 15:39.15 | LuitvD | :P |
| 15:39.38 | LuitvD | CM: then why not buy 3 1GB cards? |
| 15:40.06 | CM | LuitvD: Possible, but then you have to take out the battery to change |
| 15:40.10 | LuitvD | yeah I know, the mini-SD slot is hard to reach |
| 15:40.22 | *** part/#openmoko Imp3_ (n=Imp3@m0hr.de) |
| 15:40.35 | xkr47 | Elrond, 44 edits in 60 minutes.. beat that :D |
| 15:41.07 | hrw | prpplague: and your one is more or less working? |
| 15:41.10 | LuitvD | CM: that aftermarket-backpanel should really be created... to host a full-size SD card slot, on an easier location... |
| 15:42.19 | Elrond | xkr47 - *G* I can't. Even if I wanted to. |
| 15:43.42 | prpplague | hrw: more or less, hehe |
| 15:43.51 | LuitvD | xkr47: all edits in 'recent changes' except for 2 of them :P |
| 15:43.53 | prpplague | hrw: terrible hacks |
| 15:44.03 | xkr47 | LuitvD, :) |
| 15:44.16 | prpplague | hrw: i need to sync up with the posted patches and start over |
| 15:44.25 | LuitvD | xkr47: nice one :) |
| 15:44.28 | prpplague | hrw: since i intend on adding sdio support |
| 15:45.16 | LuitvD | prpplague: how? creating an adapter for microSD > SD? |
| 15:45.54 | prpplague | LuitvD: i'm sorry, i did not understand your question |
| 15:46.24 | LuitvD | prpplague: how do you want to add SDIO support ... |
| 15:46.35 | LuitvD | you'll need a full-size SD card slot for that anyway |
| 15:47.06 | LuitvD | or do you intend to just write the firmware patches to support it? |
| 15:47.37 | prpplague | LuitvD: i have a fully sdio slot |
| 15:47.43 | prpplague | s/fully/full |
| 15:47.51 | LuitvD | prpplague: on a fic-neo? |
| 15:48.35 | prpplague | LuitvD: no, different device, but based on both the 2410 and 2440 |
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| 15:56.13 | jebba | OMFG, `make openmoko-devel-image` finally suceeded. thx rwhitby :) |
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| 15:59.17 | xkr47 | SpeedEvil, nice Oops page there :) |
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| 16:06.04 | *** join/#openmoko rudemon (n=iamnotno@123.nat.tascom.ru) |
| 16:07.06 | rudemon | hi all |
| 16:07.17 | rudemon | what about openmoko in russia? |
| 16:07.59 | hadara | why should it be different than in any other country ? |
| 16:08.09 | rudemon | oh :) it good ^) |
| 16:08.19 | rudemon | is OS translated to russian? |
| 16:09.12 | rudemon | if no, i can do it |
| 16:09.25 | leventhal | hm .. what happened to the openmoko announce list on gmane? |
| 16:09.34 | dottedmag | rudemon: add yourself to the translators list on wiki |
| 16:10.06 | hadara | rudemon: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Translation#Russian |
| 16:11.13 | rudemon | hmm look nice |
| 16:11.40 | rudemon | i think that smartphone can be...hmm... great... |
| 16:11.58 | xkr47 | :) |
| 16:12.13 | xkr47 | no swedish translators yet.. maybe I should jump in |
| 16:12.33 | xkr47 | wonder how much text there is to translate |
| 16:13.04 | xkr47 | what kind of stuff will be translated etc.. |
| 16:13.28 | *** join/#openmoko gabaug (n=gburt@207-229-164-50.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.cable.rcn.com) |
| 16:14.46 | rudemon | all done |
| 16:15.06 | *** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru) |
| 16:16.21 | *** join/#openmoko univac_ (n=univac@148.81.191.193) |
| 16:16.53 | rudemon | what about wifi? is it integrated to openmoko? |
| 16:16.53 | aloril | When version 1 was designed there was no sufficiently low-power WiFi chip available which has an open driver. You can attach (battery) powered USB hub to Neo1973 and then use supported WiFi USB stick. For more information see http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/InternetAccess |
| 16:17.23 | rudemon | ohhh |
| 16:18.49 | *** join/#openmoko dom__ (n=dom@juicy.ecs.soton.ac.uk) |
| 16:20.14 | rudemon | openmoko really need: |
| 16:20.18 | rudemon | wifi adapter |
| 16:20.28 | rudemon | multi-touch screen |
| 16:20.42 | hrw | rudemon: and also need users which can read and think |
| 16:20.52 | LuitvD | rudemon: why? that's not openmoko's problem ;) |
| 16:20.57 | *** join/#openmoko dmp (n=dmp@suita.chopin.edu.pl) |
| 16:21.18 | rudemon | hmm... more internal space |
| 16:21.20 | LuitvD | rudemon: it's the FIC Neo1973 that lacks those functions |
| 16:21.26 | rudemon | more RAM |
| 16:21.42 | hrw | rudemon: 3GHz dual xeon too? |
| 16:21.54 | hrw | rudemon: one simple question I have to you |
| 16:21.55 | LuitvD | rudemon: yeah, and a G80? |
| 16:21.55 | rudemon | 2Xdual xeon :) |
| 16:22.08 | dottedmag | rudemon: you are welcome to solder phone with more ram, wifi, multitouch, 2xdual xeon and running openmoko. |
| 16:22.16 | hrw | rudemon: did you ever USED linux pda or more advanced phone then nokia 3210? |
| 16:22.18 | rudemon | haha |
| 16:22.27 | LuitvD | hrw: good one |
| 16:22.28 | rudemon | i use nokia 6260 |
| 16:22.40 | LuitvD | rudemon: have you ever used linux? |
| 16:22.41 | rudemon | and use linux as my OS |
| 16:22.45 | LuitvD | okay |
| 16:22.46 | LuitvD | good |
| 16:22.50 | rudemon | kubuntu, debian |
| 16:22.53 | rudemon | freebsd |
| 16:22.59 | hrw | rudemon: so you are not |
| 16:23.16 | hrw | rudemon: so for now I will just add you into 'useless users' category |
| 16:23.19 | LuitvD | rudemon: have you ever used an advanced portable device? (more advanced then a phone) |
| 16:23.26 | rudemon | PDA |
| 16:23.39 | rudemon | dell axim x51v |
| 16:23.49 | LuitvD | rudemon: ever wondered what functions that device might need? |
| 16:23.56 | rudemon | hmm |
| 16:24.06 | rudemon | i can't install linux on this dell |
| 16:24.07 | LuitvD | rudemon: don't answer, it's a retorical question |
| 16:24.14 | hrw | LuitvD: he does. quake4, doom3 etc. |
| 16:24.25 | rudemon | but i see familiarlinux on HP |
| 16:24.25 | LuitvD | hrw: lol |
| 16:24.44 | ynezz | there is linux for x51v |
| 16:25.07 | LuitvD | rudemon: have you ever thought of 'fully open platform, with all hardware fully documented + open drivers'? |
| 16:25.13 | LuitvD | ;) |
| 16:25.25 | rudemon | no |
| 16:25.26 | LuitvD | that's all I'll ever need on my phone |
| 16:25.27 | ynezz | s/fully/near fully/ |
| 16:25.38 | accumulator | begin open means the lid can come off easily, right? |
| 16:25.39 | *** join/#openmoko dyrne (i=pike@server1.freeshells.ch) |
| 16:25.44 | accumulator | muhaha |
| 16:25.48 | LuitvD | lol |
| 16:26.13 | LuitvD | accumulator: if that's so, then the FIC Neo isn't that open at all... it uses 2!! torx screws... |
| 16:26.52 | leventhal | uh oh, torx! |
| 16:27.01 | accumulator | hmm |
| 16:27.10 | hrw | OMG!!! TORX!!! |
| 16:27.26 | hrw | ;P |
| 16:27.27 | rudemon | what about packet management? apt? rpm? or other? |
| 16:27.33 | hrw | ipkg |
| 16:27.38 | leventhal | upsetting.. as soon as i get mine i'm modifying the screwdriver head to something more common! :| |
| 16:27.39 | hrw | rudemon: read wiki |
| 16:28.36 | accumulator | rudemon: I usually get my packets from eth0 |
| 16:28.49 | rudemon | no |
| 16:29.05 | rudemon | i ask about packet management and dist type |
| 16:29.16 | rudemon | deb? rpm? source-based? |
| 16:29.20 | accumulator | grr |
| 16:29.22 | jebba | rudemon, and you got your answer ipkg. and read the FAQ, wiki.... |
| 16:29.24 | LuitvD | rudemon: ipkg |
| 16:29.40 | LuitvD | rudemon: http://wiki.openmoko.org ... please |
| 16:29.42 | jebba | *plonk* |
| 16:29.48 | rudemon | thanks. thats what i need |
| 16:30.24 | ynezz | and koffeine++; |
| 16:30.26 | *** join/#openmoko zween (n=zween@80-47-249-244.lond-th.dynamic.dial.as9105.com) |
| 16:30.32 | LuitvD | ynezz: where? :) |
| 16:30.50 | rudemon | really nice |
| 16:30.52 | loufoque | LuitvD: the gps and gsm chips aren't fully documented and don't have open source drivers |
| 16:31.17 | LuitvD | loufoque: what do you mean not fully documented? |
| 16:32.04 | LuitvD | loufoque: I bet they are... otherwise no sane hardware developer of any kind (commercial/private/opensource) would want that in their device... |
| 16:32.42 | ynezz | yes, under brutal^2 NDA |
| 16:33.29 | LuitvD | loufoque: by 'fully documented hardware' i mean that the device developer documents what controllers are used, and in what way. |
| 16:34.08 | LuitvD | and if the names of the chips/controllers are known, the chipdeveloper can give you more information about those |
| 16:34.15 | SpeedEvil | Haha. |
| 16:34.30 | LuitvD | what's so funny? |
| 16:34.32 | jebba | LuitvD, ya, but like ynezz said, they are under NDA, so they can't. don't let theo know ;) |
| 16:34.37 | SpeedEvil | 'Yes, sign this NDA, and commit to buying 10K chips per annum, and we'll gladly sell you docs' |
| 16:34.51 | LuitvD | lol |
| 16:34.56 | SpeedEvil | Chipmakers are not all that open for more complex chips. |
| 16:35.17 | *** join/#openmoko wbx (n=wbx@gprs-pool-1-027.eplus-online.de) |
| 16:35.20 | loufoque | we don't know what really lies behind that serial port |
| 16:35.26 | SpeedEvil | of the GPS? |
| 16:35.30 | LuitvD | yeah, i know... they buy dozens of patents on each chip design |
| 16:35.43 | SpeedEvil | The GPS is actually quite a simple chip. |
| 16:35.43 | ynezz | well i understand it's different with gsm |
| 16:35.45 | jebba | I can /kind/ of see it for the gsm but I don't like it. But the GPS? That sucks that a free version of /that/ couldn't be found.... |
| 16:36.11 | SpeedEvil | The reason it's closed source is because all the proprietory smarts is in the software. |
| 16:36.15 | SpeedEvil | Not the cheap hardware. |
| 16:36.29 | loufoque | I think the only problem is that assisted gps requires to use a server |
| 16:36.32 | SpeedEvil | The GPS chip outputs basically doppler rates from the satellites. |
| 16:36.39 | SpeedEvil | No, it doesn't. |
| 16:36.46 | SpeedEvil | Go and look at the AGPS entry on the wiki. |
| 16:36.47 | loufoque | and the only free server imposes restrictions on what the gps chip should be able to do |
| 16:37.06 | *** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru) |
| 16:37.08 | SpeedEvil | You can get _all_ the AGPS information by turning on the GPS for 12.5 minutes every 3 weeks. |
| 16:37.34 | jebba | would be nice to have a free version of the gpsd, even if it had less features than the binary one. |
| 16:37.35 | SpeedEvil | And 'good enough' for 30 seconds every day. |
| 16:38.21 | SpeedEvil | All you get from the chip is the relative speeds of the satellites, and the 50bps transmission from them. |
| 16:38.32 | SpeedEvil | You have to 'cook' the position from that. |
| 16:39.15 | SpeedEvil | There may be ways to feed back to the chip speed estimates, to help with lock under poor conditions. |
| 16:39.59 | SpeedEvil | An interesting case is DGPS - this really does require a few hundred bytes a minute - but gives you sub-metre positioning. |
| 16:40.16 | SpeedEvil | compared to maybe 2-3m from normal GPS. |
| 16:40.41 | Elrond | Right. |
| 16:41.08 | SpeedEvil | Has to be over IP annoyingly, as there is no DGPS reciever in the phone. |
| 16:43.18 | *** part/#openmoko zoolooc (n=lucian@p549519E6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 16:43.18 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Any idea how the waas/egnos sats send? |
| 16:43.32 | SpeedEvil | In a different band than the GPS. |
| 16:43.49 | SpeedEvil | It would I assume be mentioned on the hammerhead docs in large letters if it could do htis. |
| 16:44.04 | Elrond | Right. |
| 16:44.35 | Elrond | It feels like a "simple" sirfIII would have been "better". |
| 16:45.11 | SpeedEvil | However, I can see where asking some server for local current GPS info (coupla hundred bytes) to get a one-off accurate position. |
| 16:45.20 | SpeedEvil | could be nice. |
| 16:45.34 | SpeedEvil | Yes, but the sirfIII is maybe 10 dollars more. |
| 16:45.39 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@206.80-202-161.nextgentel.com) |
| 16:46.34 | Elrond | $360 instead of 350 would not have scared me notably more, really. |
| 16:46.45 | SpeedEvil | $380 |
| 16:46.53 | SpeedEvil | And probably another 4g. |
| 16:46.57 | LuitvD | :P |
| 16:47.25 | LuitvD | I'd even pay 50 dollars more for WiMAX... |
| 16:47.38 | SpeedEvil | The 'dumb' chip offers interesting possibilities with an optimised driver. |
| 16:47.50 | Elrond | It would have stopped all the gpl discussion and trojamned agpsd rumours. |
| 16:47.59 | SpeedEvil | For example, peer-peer DGPS, where stationary Neos report the errors in the area. |
| 16:48.15 | mjr | heh |
| 16:48.40 | Kero | gprs-enhanced gps? |
| 16:48.49 | SpeedEvil | yes. |
| 16:49.06 | LuitvD | I hate GPS... I hope the Gallileo project will be finished soon... more precise, not owned by the USA, just better... |
| 16:49.09 | Kero | i'm all for it :) |
| 16:49.10 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Does one need the raw gps data for that? |
| 16:49.32 | SpeedEvil | Not quite, but you need raw GPS data that some recievers won't output. |
| 16:49.41 | SpeedEvil | You need to apply per-satellite corrections. |
| 16:49.48 | Elrond | LuitvD - I heard, one has to pay monthly fees for the higher precision with galileo. |
| 16:49.56 | SpeedEvil | And then compute the position based on these. |
| 16:49.59 | LuitvD | we'll probably have to wait for 2010 for gallileo |
| 16:50.07 | Kero | we need some OpenSatellite project.... |
| 16:50.16 | Elrond | *G* |
| 16:50.27 | LuitvD | :) |
| 16:50.28 | SpeedEvil | The ionosphere has 'weather', which makes the GPS satellites appear to vary in range by 2m or so. |
| 16:50.31 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - the sirf binary protocol outputs some stuff per sat. |
| 16:50.40 | SpeedEvil | I don't know it's enough. |
| 16:51.03 | SpeedEvil | If you have a local stationary comparison site, you can get better positions. |
| 16:51.18 | SpeedEvil | Not lookes at SIRFIII. |
| 16:51.43 | Elrond | It outputs the PRN per sat. Is that enough? |
| 16:52.17 | Elrond | (and you can request the almanac/ephemeris also) |
| 16:52.38 | SpeedEvil | I am unsure - it may be possible. |
| 16:52.48 | Elrond | (and even feed it into the gps. so simple Agps might be possible with it too.) |
| 16:53.05 | SpeedEvil | However, the Hammerhead is in the neo. |
| 16:53.23 | *** join/#openmoko helb (n=helb@84.244.90.159) |
| 16:53.36 | Elrond | Right. |
| 16:54.19 | *** join/#openmoko rsavoye_ (n=rob@moongulch.net) |
| 16:54.26 | SpeedEvil | Still doesn't help with the hard part - the maps :( |
| 16:54.50 | rsavoye_ | Hey, as far as I can tell the registration for projects on the web site is broke... |
| 16:55.14 | rsavoye_ | I'd love to port Gnash to the OpenMoko platform. |
| 16:55.17 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - I don't know, if navteq sells map data stright to customers... |
| 16:55.21 | SpeedEvil | So do. |
| 16:55.36 | SpeedEvil | Elrond: I'd imagine they'd sell to anyone - for the right price. |
| 16:55.53 | Elrond | rsavoye_ - Do at home... and when you have gone anywhere and the registration works again, register. |
| 16:56.02 | XorA | rsavoye_: its been 90% done already, check bugs.openembedded.org |
| 16:56.45 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Yeah. ;) Add "at reasonable price" ;) |
| 16:56.51 | rsavoye_ | Elrond: only 90% ? I've had Gnash running on OpenEmbedded for months just fine. |
| 16:56.52 | XorA | rsavoye_: http://bugs.openembedded.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1480 |
| 16:57.31 | rsavoye_ | So OpenMoko runs OpemEmbedded ? |
| 16:57.39 | Elrond | rsavoye_ - Yes. |
| 16:57.45 | XorA | rsavoye_: no, openmoko is built using openembedded |
| 16:57.49 | rsavoye_ | I didn't use the OE build environment, too strange. |
| 16:57.51 | LuitvD[eating] | :P |
| 16:57.54 | *** join/#openmoko mlpug (n=user@a85-156-253-211.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 16:58.32 | SpeedEvil | All you need to do is to wait till late march, then simply install GCC on a phone :) |
| 16:58.34 | rsavoye_ | XorA: ah... so I gues Gnash will come along with the rest if somnebody makes a goo .bb file ? |
| 16:58.47 | XorA | rsavoye_: yup |
| 16:59.01 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Have the law/itar issues been evaluated to a pint, where we know, wethere writing a free gpsd would make this all into a munition or not? |
| 16:59.03 | rsavoye_ | SpeedEvil: I've got two machines here running OpenEmbedded already. :-) |
| 16:59.04 | XorA | rsavoye_: if you have experience, then updates to that bug I just posted would be most appreciated |
| 16:59.12 | *** join/#openmoko wansti (n=wansti@b062.apm.etc.tu-bs.de) |
| 16:59.33 | rsavoye_ | SpeedEvil: Plus I build cross-development tool chains, instead of these werid semi-"native" development things. |
| 16:59.51 | rsavoye_ | I did all the work to make Gnash work under OE, but the bb files |
| 17:00.00 | rsavoye_ | still don't quite work... |
| 17:00.51 | SpeedEvil | Elrond: the comments I got back say that both of the people with experience say 'possibly'. |
| 17:01.19 | SpeedEvil | I'm Fairly certain that simply shipping the closed source daemon, and then the user putting the open source one if they want works. |
| 17:01.27 | SpeedEvil | However, this is a very silly area of law. |
| 17:01.41 | natetrue | i would say in SVN for the open-source one keep the limitation |
| 17:01.44 | SpeedEvil | And one that is probably needing the opinion of an actual lawyer in the area to resolve. |
| 17:01.52 | *** join/#openmoko l4rs (n=laprican@hsiproxy.astra-net.com) |
| 17:01.54 | natetrue | and allow no one to patch it |
| 17:02.13 | natetrue | or perhaps detect whether it is in the USA, and have the limitation only if it is |
| 17:02.36 | mjr | natetrue, that's probably not enough to satisfy US requirements :] |
| 17:02.54 | SpeedEvil | That wouldn't work, it doesn't say 'capable of ...' only inside the US. |
| 17:02.55 | mjr | happily, an open replacement can be developed elsewhere and then people can use it if they think it's safe :] |
| 17:03.02 | SpeedEvil | Yeah. |
| 17:03.06 | SpeedEvil | _probably_. |
| 17:03.19 | wansti | i'm trying to come up with some ringtones you can use... any ideas? |
| 17:03.23 | SpeedEvil | I'd still want the opinion of an actual lawyer. |
| 17:04.26 | natetrue | might find some ringtone music in creative commons |
| 17:04.34 | natetrue | "simple" ringtones are easy enough to compose anyway |
| 17:04.52 | Elrond | Well, if things go crazy, downloading/installing the replacement could be a crime in the us. I really don't know. |
| 17:05.07 | natetrue | just let people put their MP3s on as ringtones and you have happy customers |
| 17:05.15 | SpeedEvil | Actually - the ITAR regulations are import/export only. |
| 17:05.46 | SpeedEvil | So - if a US user was to - in the US - download from the US something written in the US, they don't touch it. |
| 17:05.59 | Elrond | Ahhh. |
| 17:06.00 | Kero | any .mp3 .mod .mid .wav you want, per user, depending on the time of day, whatever. |
| 17:06.01 | wansti | but i think it'd be cool to have an official ringtone... like some kind of "project theme song" |
| 17:06.01 | SpeedEvil | Unless the person goes abroad, in which case they are an arms smuggler. |
| 17:06.07 | hrw | avoid midi |
| 17:06.19 | Kero | hrw: why? |
| 17:06.27 | Kero | (not that I intend to use it) |
| 17:06.35 | mjr | "Shit, I forgot to change in my travelling non-arms microSD when leaving home" |
| 17:06.41 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 17:06.50 | SpeedEvil | Yes, it's insane. That doesn't stop them locking you up. |
| 17:06.59 | hrw | Kero: on machines which lack midi hardware you need to use cpu to play it. it can take more power then mp3/ogg ;) |
| 17:06.59 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - And if they download from outside the US, it's grey, probably? |
| 17:07.13 | SpeedEvil | Elrond: yes - at that point it gets horribly grey. |
| 17:07.22 | SpeedEvil | As the software isn't a GPS device. |
| 17:07.28 | mjr | yeah, one supposes it's not clear-cut, since, yeah, what SpeedEvil said |
| 17:07.32 | Kero | hrw: ok (esp when using non-fpu, like madplay, I guess) |
| 17:07.47 | natetrue | hrw, ring tones play something like 5 minutes out of the day total |
| 17:07.49 | SpeedEvil | But, is importing it, and combining it to make one... I supsect the only resolution you'd get would be in a court. |
| 17:07.55 | natetrue | they're not exactly a key power consumption area |
| 17:08.06 | SpeedEvil | However, holding up a legal opinion at least says you tried. |
| 17:08.49 | Kero | SpeedEvil: which, with "malevolent intent" or whatever it is called, is *important* |
| 17:08.52 | SpeedEvil | I mean for FIC - an opinion saying 'In our opinion, a closed source agpsd, shipped with the phone is OK' |
| 17:09.05 | mickeyl | we have no FM-chip in the Neo, hence no GM, hence we would have to use an emulation, which we don't want. mp3/ogg/mod/sid should be quite enough... |
| 17:09.31 | SpeedEvil | I have real doubts that midi costs more to play than mp3. |
| 17:09.38 | mickeyl | runtime, no |
| 17:09.50 | Elrond | costs more than .mod. ;o) |
| 17:09.51 | mickeyl | but probably the flash ROM to store all the samples |
| 17:09.57 | SpeedEvil | Oh - of course. |
| 17:10.00 | hrw | timidity took lot |
| 17:10.10 | *** join/#openmoko liberweesco (n=daniel@hsiproxy.astra-net.com) |
| 17:10.10 | hrw | 8-64M for waveforms |
| 17:10.18 | SpeedEvil | If you just load the required samples, it's not bad I suppose. |
| 17:10.25 | SpeedEvil | But that adds complexity. |
| 17:10.50 | *** join/#openmoko libervisco (n=libervis@tuxhacker/libervis) |
| 17:10.51 | *** join/#openmoko liberweesco (n=daniel@hsiproxy.astra-net.com) |
| 17:11.13 | natetrue | yeah, as far as shipping goes |
| 17:11.23 | natetrue | have most of them midi or .mod for space concerns |
| 17:11.34 | natetrue | and one or two short mp3 ones to demonstrate the mp3 capability |
| 17:11.52 | Elrond | s/mp3/ogg/ should be shipped, for political correctness. ;) |
| 17:12.01 | natetrue | of course |
| 17:12.35 | mjr | yeah I've been wondering if they're gonna ship mp3 players, and if they therefore probably have licensed it |
| 17:12.49 | natetrue | looks like the regulations for import/export says "... Capable of providing navigation information under the following operational conditions; (i) At speeds in excess of 515 m/sec (1,000 nautical miles/hour); and (ii) At altitudes in excess of 18 km (60,000 feet); ..." |
| 17:12.52 | Elrond | mjr - tihi. |
| 17:12.59 | mjr | (I'd rather not pay for the license myself, though that's not gonna stop me from buying the phone) |
| 17:12.59 | natetrue | what bothers me is the 'capable' |
| 17:13.13 | natetrue | if an open-source daemon is available but not preinstalled, does that render it 'capable'? |
| 17:13.27 | Kero | "capable of providing some futile piece of information" ?? |
| 17:14.04 | mjr | I wouldn't think it would be "capable" still, but what do I know of US law |
| 17:14.22 | natetrue | even if they don't ship mp3 support i'm sure there will be a lame mp3 plugin for the media player |
| 17:14.33 | natetrue | (i'm supposing they'll use something like TCPMP as a base for the media player) |
| 17:14.55 | Kero | capable, it'll never have been tested at either the speed or the altitude... |
| 17:15.22 | natetrue | well the law is just words and interpretations of it... if i wanted the phones not to come into the US i think 'capable' would fit my interpretation |
| 17:15.25 | mjr | natetrue, of course one will be made available by someone, but at that point it wouldn't be fic's problem, and lo, patents pretty much bypassed |
| 17:15.35 | natetrue | hooray |
| 17:16.16 | natetrue | i would recommend shipping with software or links to software that converts mp3 to ogg for the phone |
| 17:16.29 | natetrue | for the non-power users |
| 17:16.34 | natetrue | who don't know what ogg is yet |
| 17:17.20 | natetrue | oh, here's a definition from the same document |
| 17:17.20 | natetrue | "Usable In" or "Capable Of" describes equipment, parts, components or software which are suitable for a particular purpose. There is no need for the equipment, parts, components or software to have been configured, modified or specified for the particular purpose. For example, any military specification memory circuit would be "capable of" operation in a guidance system. |
| 17:18.04 | SpeedEvil | However. |
| 17:18.06 | natetrue | so it divides equipment, parts, components and software |
| 17:18.12 | mjr | well then, any GPS chip that didn't in-chip limit those things would be in violation |
| 17:18.20 | natetrue | good point |
| 17:18.27 | SpeedEvil | 99% of commercial GPS recievers are the same as this. |
| 17:18.35 | natetrue | bonus in our case though |
| 17:18.35 | SpeedEvil | They have a binary blob, which can be changed. |
| 17:18.49 | natetrue | since the software is divided from the equipment in that definition |
| 17:18.52 | SpeedEvil | Flash upgrade, or whatever. |
| 17:18.59 | natetrue | only the software that does not limit it will be embargoed |
| 17:19.23 | natetrue | at least, that's my non-lawyerific opinion |
| 17:19.36 | wm_eddie | Why is it that Sony can force people to use their crappy codec and nobody complains but we can't force people to convert their MP3s into OGGs? |
| 17:19.45 | natetrue | because sony is powerful |
| 17:19.50 | natetrue | they own many things |
| 17:19.55 | natetrue | we're a bunch of losers in our basements |
| 17:20.07 | hrw | cu |
| 17:20.25 | Kero | natetrue: at least we can phone each other from our basements, soon |
| 17:20.34 | natetrue | woop |
| 17:20.41 | natetrue | and i assume there'll be an IRC app |
| 17:21.13 | natetrue | hey, if the text entry system is worth its salt |
| 17:21.26 | SpeedEvil | The screen more than anything. |
| 17:21.55 | natetrue | well especially with the neo |
| 17:21.55 | natetrue | the screen is everything :) |
| 17:22.02 | natetrue | i like light laptops too, mine converts into a tablet |
| 17:22.10 | natetrue | ...though it's a shade heavy for a tablet |
| 17:22.16 | natetrue | arm fatigue and all |
| 17:22.18 | SpeedEvil | Mine doesn't, unless I attack it with a hacksaw :) |
| 17:22.31 | mjr | mine isn't particularly light |
| 17:22.33 | SpeedEvil | 1.1Kg/6 hour battery life isn't bad though. |
| 17:22.39 | natetrue | that is nice |
| 17:22.45 | SpeedEvil | If only it was faster than PII/300 |
| 17:23.00 | natetrue | mine gets 6 hours when it's set to dim screen / 800mhz cpu |
| 17:23.13 | natetrue | i usually do bright screen, 1.53ghz cpu, which gets me 3-ish hours |
| 17:23.52 | natetrue | battery's huge though |
| 17:24.03 | SpeedEvil | Only 6 hours after I re-celled from the stock batteries. |
| 17:24.05 | natetrue | so have we heard anything about how text entry on the neo will work |
| 17:24.06 | SpeedEvil | Though. |
| 17:24.31 | SpeedEvil | stylus keyboard |
| 17:24.36 | SpeedEvil | probably number pad |
| 17:24.37 | SpeedEvil | ... |
| 17:25.00 | SpeedEvil | I don't think the exact interface has been nailed down. |
| 17:25.10 | natetrue | i suppose it would be ultimately customizable |
| 17:25.28 | natetrue | 9-button T9 for folks who used that on their old phone |
| 17:25.38 | natetrue | stylus keyboard for people who like typing slow |
| 17:25.42 | SpeedEvil | T9 is impossible. |
| 17:25.43 | jannu | On the subject of irc, I've been working on a few sketches for the ui of the messaging application |
| 17:25.47 | natetrue | maybe an open-source Graffiti/Jot clone for fingernailing the screen |
| 17:25.49 | SpeedEvil | patented |
| 17:25.53 | natetrue | crap |
| 17:26.04 | SpeedEvil | Grafiti would be interesting. |
| 17:26.09 | SpeedEvil | Also patented I spose. |
| 17:26.21 | jannu | the best idea I've come up with is to base the ui around conversations. |
| 17:26.37 | *** join/#openmoko koen (n=koen@dominion.kabel.utwente.nl) |
| 17:26.38 | natetrue | i use Jot on my palmos watch, it's terribly inaccurate, but i bet on the neo it would be better, bigger screen |
| 17:26.41 | SpeedEvil | 'Damn you you bastard, do what I want' 'No'. |
| 17:26.49 | jannu | so basically you have a conversation with each person in you addressbook |
| 17:27.18 | SpeedEvil | you mean threading? |
| 17:27.23 | jannu | along with a conversation for each irc channel |
| 17:27.33 | jannu | SpeedEvil: basically yes |
| 17:27.39 | natetrue | that'd be cool |
| 17:27.53 | natetrue | and each contact has preferred methods of contact, AIM, IRC, text message, etc? |
| 17:28.08 | jannu | natetrue: yep, that's the idea |
| 17:28.11 | natetrue | so if they're off AIM it can text them |
| 17:28.17 | natetrue | i like that |
| 17:28.19 | SpeedEvil | Of course there is always the option of teaming up with OLPC to do voice recognition. |
| 17:28.19 | natetrue | i like that a lot |
| 17:28.32 | natetrue | voice recognition can be awkward sometimes |
| 17:28.34 | SpeedEvil | (VOIP to kids in africa :) |
| 17:28.35 | natetrue | like in public |
| 17:28.56 | jannu | natetrue: me too. hopefully something like that will actually materialize one day |
| 17:29.00 | natetrue | "hey girl you want to backspace backspace WANT to hook up tonight backspace TONIGHT" |
| 17:30.26 | jannu | imho a better approach than voice recognition is to work on some kind of push 2 talk protocol |
| 17:30.26 | jannu | so you can just send the voice |
| 17:30.26 | jebba | sphinx voice recognition is decent, if its a limited vocubulary. Like it's not so hot for writing a book, but answering "yes/no" or "dial $foo" is ok. |
| 17:30.45 | natetrue | voice dialing is a concept i can get behind |
| 17:30.49 | SpeedEvil | If only microsoft hadn't eaten all the voice recognition companies. |
| 17:31.10 | *** join/#openmoko pirulo (n=andres_p@65.19.28.123) |
| 17:31.12 | jebba | and it looks like neo has very good audio parts, which will make for a clear wavefile for sphinx to grok |
| 17:31.15 | *** join/#openmoko pvanhoof (n=pvanhoof@d54C0EE14.access.telenet.be) |
| 17:31.39 | natetrue | i'd love a USB keyboard accessory designed for the neo |
| 17:31.50 | SpeedEvil | Why designed for neo? |
| 17:31.56 | natetrue | yeah, to hug the design a bit |
| 17:32.00 | natetrue | and be thumb-board small |
| 17:32.07 | natetrue | though i'd loath carrying it around |
| 17:32.09 | jannu | we could do T9 in sane areas like Europe |
| 17:32.27 | *** join/#openmoko mintee (n=mintee@72-165-177-90.dia.static.qwest.net) |
| 17:32.30 | mjr | jannu, well, at least we're still trying to stay sane, but yeah |
| 17:32.39 | loufoque | why can't you do T9 elsewhere? |
| 17:32.42 | natetrue | well does T9 only cover looking up partial words in a dictionary |
| 17:32.44 | jannu | do the T9 patents basically cover all forms of predictive text input? |
| 17:33.00 | SpeedEvil | natetrue: there is always the [[expansion back]] keyboard option. |
| 17:33.01 | loufoque | because of patents? |
| 17:33.09 | SpeedEvil | it is quite small though. |
| 17:33.16 | mjr | loufoque, apparently at least in some parts of the world yea |
| 17:33.16 | natetrue | i don't mind small keyboards |
| 17:33.21 | jannu | mjr: yes, some of us are |
| 17:33.39 | loufoque | there is better than T9 though |
| 17:33.46 | loufoque | the advantage of T9 is that people are quite used to it |
| 17:33.57 | mintee | Hi All, So has the Neo shipped out to devs yet? |
| 17:34.02 | SpeedEvil | Not AIUI. |
| 17:34.05 | SpeedEvil | counter |
| 17:34.05 | aloril | P0: a week, 2 days 18:25:54 (3.768 - 9.768 days); P1: 25.768 - 40.768; P2: 193.768 - 223.768 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (361) |
| 17:34.11 | loufoque | AIUI? |
| 17:34.18 | SpeedEvil | As I Undersant TI |
| 17:34.20 | SpeedEvil | gah |
| 17:34.25 | SpeedEvil | As I understand It. |
| 17:34.33 | loufoque | never saw this one before |
| 17:34.34 | mintee | ah, i see |
| 17:34.36 | mintee | danla |
| 17:34.40 | mintee | danka* even |
| 17:34.46 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 17:34.50 | *** part/#openmoko mintee (n=mintee@72-165-177-90.dia.static.qwest.net) |
| 17:34.54 | Elrond | loufoque - I haven't seen it before either. But it's on wikipedia or so. |
| 17:35.20 | *** join/#openmoko Zoolooc (n=Zoolooc@p549519E6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 17:35.21 | jannu | anyway, using few buttons with many glyphs each is actually a worse approach than using many small buttons with one glyph each |
| 17:35.28 | Elrond | How far does the BT chip/anteanna probably reach to the next Neo? |
| 17:35.38 | *** join/#openmoko arekm (n=arekm@pld-linux/arekm) |
| 17:35.48 | pirulo | no wifi? |
| 17:35.48 | aloril | When version 1 was designed there was no sufficiently low-power WiFi chip available which has an open driver. You can attach (battery) powered USB hub to Neo1973 and then use supported WiFi USB stick. For more information see http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/InternetAccess |
| 17:35.50 | natetrue | max 10m isn't it? |
| 17:36.01 | loufoque | bluetooth works up to 20m I think |
| 17:36.20 | jannu | because with many buttons you can do smart error correction / word prediction based on the position of the fingerpress |
| 17:37.01 | jannu | i.e. you can assign higher weights to glyphs which are drawn near the keypress position |
| 17:37.28 | natetrue | and add weights to bayesian probability that the letter is the next one after the previous one typed |
| 17:37.37 | jannu | whereas with few big buttons all the glyphs in one button will get the same weight |
| 17:37.44 | Elrond | 10-20m ... not really much for the neo<->neo communication ;) ("There's a neo user near you. Locating him... it's the guy over there at the wall" ;o) |
| 17:37.46 | *** join/#openmoko TarasBulba (n=gorkem@81.214.127.147) |
| 17:38.07 | natetrue | ooh can we send DRM'd songs to nearby neo users |
| 17:38.08 | jannu | natetrue: exactly. and do vocabulary-based prediction as well |
| 17:38.33 | jannu | natetrue: and stream drmed music to them over BT |
| 17:39.08 | *** join/#openmoko sameo (n=samuel@217.193.129.58) |
| 17:39.16 | natetrue | remember the Zune though, no one liked it enough to reach the critical mass required for "the social" to be welcoming |
| 17:39.23 | jannu | the only problem is that I'm sort of guessing that apple has patented the small button approach |
| 17:39.31 | loufoque | actually according to wikipedia there are three classes of bluetooth devices, which have a range of 100m, 10m, or 1m |
| 17:39.48 | natetrue | i don't think they're putting that much power into the neo |
| 17:39.52 | natetrue | 100m is a bit long |
| 17:39.54 | jannu | because that's exactly how the iphone's on screen qwerty keyboard works |
| 17:40.20 | natetrue | we can have a keyboard that dynamically rearranges itself according to probabilities |
| 17:40.33 | natetrue | the letters most likely to be used next are directly under your thumb so you can't see them |
| 17:40.37 | *** part/#openmoko wansti (n=wansti@b062.apm.etc.tu-bs.de) |
| 17:40.43 | jannu | natetrue: you don't want that |
| 17:40.52 | natetrue | no, i don't |
| 17:40.58 | natetrue | because that would be terrible |
| 17:41.07 | Elrond | *G* |
| 17:41.08 | stefan_schmidt | Any o-hand dude around? would be nice to get a new certificate for svn.o-hand.com/repos/dates/branches/private . The old one expired 12 Dec 2006. |
| 17:41.12 | jannu | natetrue: if the keyboard isn't stable, you'll never learn to type fast with it |
| 17:41.31 | koen | stefan_schmidt: mail mallum@o-hand.com |
| 17:41.32 | jannu | natetrue: just like all other ui elements |
| 17:41.39 | natetrue | i like the graffiti clone so far |
| 17:41.42 | jebba | would be /perhaps/ nice if the keyboard input would rotate so the keyboard would run along the long side, thus making it a bit bigger.... |
| 17:41.48 | natetrue | i mean, what's more intuitive than "write the letter on the screen" |
| 17:41.55 | stefan_schmidt | koen: The big boss personal? :) Will do. |
| 17:42.20 | jebba | dasher is quite interesting, but would be a bit much to unlease on "regular" users. |
| 17:42.25 | jannu | jebba: I've got sketches of on screen keyboards in both portrait and landscape mode |
| 17:42.40 | jebba | jannu, got URL? |
| 17:43.11 | jannu | jebba: the problem is though that the v1 hardware can't do automatic screen rotation based on real-world orientation |
| 17:43.12 | Elrond | Can single X-windows be rotated? |
| 17:43.38 | jannu | jebba: nope, I'm still actually sketching on paper |
| 17:44.39 | jebba | i was thinking not rotating the whole screen, just the keyboard and putting the input box too. This would only work for some apps though (e.g. if you hit "search"). Might be annoying though. just brainstorming while compiling.... |
| 17:45.10 | Elrond | jebba - Yeah. That's why I asked, wether X supports rotating single windows. |
| 17:45.50 | jebba | well, even if it doesn't, it would be easy enough to just design a sideways keyboard. |
| 17:45.54 | natetrue | if it had a camera you could take pictures of letters you want to type! |
| 17:46.01 | stefan_schmidt | koen: Mail is done |
| 17:46.12 | koen | stefan_schmidt: cool |
| 17:48.30 | Elrond | koen - Is that in xoo, or what? |
| 17:48.42 | jebba | ah. How about a gyro like are in the IBM drives to detect tilting and such. :) |
| 17:48.53 | koen | Elrond: on an ipaq hx4700 |
| 17:49.01 | koen | Elrond: emulation is overrated :) |
| 17:49.19 | Elrond | koen - Ahh. ;) |
| 17:49.27 | jebba | sure, if you have an ipaq emulation is overrated... |
| 17:49.31 | SpeedEvil | An accellerometer costs maybe $5 in large bulk. |
| 17:49.39 | SpeedEvil | Which'll add $10 or so to the pirce. |
| 17:50.44 | jebba | it could make the GUI function differently if it was laying flat on a desk or held upright |
| 17:50.47 | roh | wifi would be nice... but do not overdesign ;) 3g, wifi and better batterylife would be my wish for v2.. |
| 17:50.49 | Elrond | Which brings us back to the whole "add a V12" theme ;o) |
| 17:51.01 | roh | but first... v1 ;) |
| 17:51.02 | SpeedEvil | TARDIS - it's the only solution. |
| 17:51.14 | SpeedEvil | How else do you fit PCI cards in a phone. |
| 17:53.44 | *** join/#openmoko alphaone (n=daniel@datenfreihafen.org) |
| 17:55.52 | pirulo | i am buying v1 but will surely uy v2 with wifi, just imagine adding voip to the whole equation |
| 17:55.55 | koen | buying is overrated ;) |
| 17:56.27 | pirulo | not when paying, 8) |
| 17:57.24 | pjz | @rn |
| 17:58.55 | natetrue | everyone wants better battery life |
| 17:58.57 | Elrond | I like this headset emulation idea. |
| 17:59.26 | Elrond | natetrue - I will ask for better battery life, when I know the current numbers. |
| 17:59.35 | natetrue | what are the current numbers? |
| 17:59.42 | natetrue | 15 minutes talk time, 3 hours standby? |
| 17:59.51 | SpeedEvil | I wanna know too! |
| 17:59.52 | Elrond | I don't know them. |
| 17:59.56 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 18:00.15 | SpeedEvil | You can probably get hard minimum and maximum numbers from the datasheet. |
| 18:00.33 | SpeedEvil | But, those are not likely to be usefull. |
| 18:00.57 | natetrue | i read 1200mAh |
| 18:01.04 | natetrue | so depending on current consumption |
| 18:01.30 | natetrue | for 24 hours standby it wuold have to consume 50mA in standby |
| 18:01.38 | natetrue | and that is a lot of current for a cell phone |
| 18:01.38 | SpeedEvil | I was meaning take all the chip and module datasheets and integrate. |
| 18:01.42 | natetrue | oh |
| 18:01.54 | natetrue | that would very much be inaccurate |
| 18:01.58 | natetrue | though wild estimation isn't much better |
| 18:02.12 | natetrue | i would put standby current at 10mA |
| 18:02.23 | natetrue | peak at say, 200mA |
| 18:02.50 | natetrue | though i've never designed a phone before |
| 18:02.50 | natetrue | so who knows |
| 18:04.20 | Elrond | I only looked at the CPU once... something like 8h at full speed was my guess. ;) |
| 18:06.52 | natetrue | that's not bad |
| 18:07.07 | natetrue | i really don't mind if the battery life gets me through one day |
| 18:07.09 | jebba | it hugely depends upon whether parts of chips are shut down correctly when not in use (e.g. not running headphones if nothing is plugged in) |
| 18:07.14 | natetrue | i charge my current phone every night |
| 18:07.22 | natetrue | not that i have to, i could charge it every other night |
| 18:07.43 | *** join/#openmoko sircrow (n=sircrow@sd511685b.adsl.wanadoo.nl) |
| 18:07.43 | SpeedEvil | Being able to not have to worry about charger, when you're away is nice though. |
| 18:07.46 | natetrue | jebba, i suppose we can trust FIC to get that right? |
| 18:08.05 | natetrue | nice but i have a laptop and always have a mini-usb cable around |
| 18:08.09 | natetrue | they're almost ubiquitous |
| 18:08.09 | SpeedEvil | A large part of this is apps. |
| 18:08.10 | jebba | well, some of that would be in software, but headphone sensing i'm sure they built into the hardware. |
| 18:08.28 | SpeedEvil | IIRC, the headphone amp uses microamps statically. |
| 18:08.36 | natetrue | not at high volumes |
| 18:08.42 | natetrue | gotta get that power somewhere |
| 18:08.58 | natetrue | oh i get you |
| 18:09.10 | natetrue | no sound, no power? |
| 18:09.22 | *** join/#openmoko kc_6363 (i=7aa79d65@gateway/web/cgi-irc/ircatwork.com/x-a79441083f1208c6) |
| 18:09.25 | Elrond | The amplifier can be switched of from kernel. |
| 18:09.30 | SpeedEvil | Pretty much. |
| 18:09.38 | *** join/#openmoko Ar1 (n=arihut@80.247.253.118) |
| 18:09.45 | SpeedEvil | The sound chip can be totally contrtolled over I2C. |
| 18:10.05 | Elrond | Right. |
| 18:10.07 | SpeedEvil | The power amp that is. |
| 18:10.21 | natetrue | woop |
| 18:10.35 | Elrond | Isn't it connected to the PMU also? So we can just cut it from the power? |
| 18:10.38 | jebba | i don't quite get why there was an amp added to the system as well as the WM8753 seemed pretty powerful/featureful without an amp. |
| 18:11.54 | SpeedEvil | Elrond: dunno, not seen circuit diags :) |
| 18:12.09 | SpeedEvil | jebba: you also need headphone,speaker, and earpiece amps. |
| 18:12.16 | SpeedEvil | Doesn't the WM only have 2 channels? |
| 18:12.44 | jebba | no, the WM has all sorts of channels. |
| 18:12.56 | Elrond | Does the WM have 0.5W ? |
| 18:13.01 | SpeedEvil | Hmm. At 200MHz, the CPU uses 250mW. |
| 18:13.12 | SpeedEvil | Fully active. |
| 18:13.30 | SpeedEvil | Which is about 12 hours fully active, indeed. |
| 18:13.36 | SpeedEvil | Maybe 8 hours with the screen on. |
| 18:13.47 | natetrue | not terrible |
| 18:13.50 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - 3.3V? Or what did the CPU take? |
| 18:14.06 | arekm | http://pastebin.ca/363804 ? |
| 18:14.14 | Kero | 250 mW, not too bad |
| 18:14.17 | SpeedEvil | That's mixed over 1.8/3.3 |
| 18:14.34 | jebba | SpeedEvil, ya, WM is .5W for speaker driver |
| 18:14.50 | SpeedEvil | jebba: how many channels power out though? |
| 18:15.03 | *** join/#openmoko sameo (n=samuel@217.193.129.58) |
| 18:15.05 | SpeedEvil | And is that .5W @ 3.3Vcc? |
| 18:15.11 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - We don't have figurtes on the backlight... |
| 18:15.32 | jebba | .5W just for speakers. plus headphone, differential microphone |
| 18:15.36 | SpeedEvil | Sigh. |
| 18:16.27 | gabaug | jebba: you're going to use the speakers at the same time as the headphone? |
| 18:16.33 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: 42 |
| 18:16.47 | jebba | gabaug, well, it can use speakers at same time as headphones if needed. |
| 18:16.51 | SpeedEvil | Semi-educated. |
| 18:17.03 | SpeedEvil | It can be computed from the display brightness, and the viewing angle. |
| 18:17.18 | SpeedEvil | And the likely efficiency of the LEDs and backlight optics. |
| 18:17.50 | jebba | "stereo headphone, BTL speaker, and BTL earpiece may be connected simultaneously." |
| 18:20.41 | natetrue | usually you run LEDs at 30mA each |
| 18:20.49 | SpeedEvil | 20mA is common nominal |
| 18:20.53 | SpeedEvil | Anyway. |
| 18:21.01 | natetrue | yeah, i guess 30 is pushing it |
| 18:21.07 | SpeedEvil | Instead of doing the above, I looked for powers of many similar modules. |
| 18:21.14 | natetrue | smart |
| 18:21.24 | SpeedEvil | They seem to cluster around 200mW for backlight or so. |
| 18:22.20 | LuitvD[eating] | SpeedEvil:are there 10 leds in the backlight? :S |
| 18:22.23 | SpeedEvil | Which is probably reasonable, so 6-8 hours with everything fully active - say playing videos - is likely. |
| 18:22.36 | SpeedEvil | There are many higher power LEDs than the 20mA ones. |
| 18:22.59 | SpeedEvil | I've got a 1W AAA flashlight that's 20 times brighter than the one it replaced and uses the same power. |
| 18:23.00 | natetrue | 6-8 hours of video playback is pretty good |
| 18:23.16 | natetrue | granted you'll be hard pressed to store 6-8 hours of video on there |
| 18:23.23 | LuitvD[eating] | SpeedEvil: I think the LCD backlight contains standard 20mA@3V SMD leds... |
| 18:23.51 | LuitvD[eating] | so there must be at least 9 of them to get to 200mA alltogether |
| 18:23.53 | SpeedEvil | @3V is unlikely, they are more likely to be around 3.6 or so. |
| 18:23.59 | SpeedEvil | 200mW, not mA. |
| 18:24.31 | SpeedEvil | 3 or so is likely. |
| 18:24.46 | LuitvD[eating] | ah |
| 18:24.48 | LuitvD[eating] | right :P |
| 18:24.53 | LuitvD[eating] | sorry, misread... |
| 18:24.58 | Kero | those numbers for backlight and CPU are a factor of 4 better than my (old) iPAQ. promising :) |
| 18:25.14 | natetrue | i hope it also has a doze state |
| 18:25.16 | SpeedEvil | LED brightness has gotten a hell of a lot better over the last 4 years or so. |
| 18:25.18 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - 12MHz. |
| 18:25.36 | SpeedEvil | useful as in what can it do - do all of the peripherals work, or do some stop. |
| 18:25.48 | Elrond | Ahh. |
| 18:25.50 | SpeedEvil | It's useful in that it's low enough power that it is concievable to run it all the time. |
| 18:26.18 | Elrond | Right. The core question is: Does the TFT work with that low speed... |
| 18:26.20 | SpeedEvil | 50mW maybe with everything running and idle, say 3-4 days. |
| 18:26.29 | SpeedEvil | The TFT is... |
| 18:26.37 | SpeedEvil | The datasheet says that it has RAM. |
| 18:26.53 | LuitvD | SpeedEvil: for self-refreshing yes |
| 18:26.57 | SpeedEvil | But the controllers linked are very, very dumb ones, just shift registers. |
| 18:27.13 | SpeedEvil | Well - LCD product info, it's not a datasheet. |
| 18:27.14 | *** join/#openmoko LetoTo (n=paul@bofh.xelerance.com) |
| 18:27.51 | SpeedEvil | Though the LCD has to be pretty dimly backlit to make much difference - the CPU at full speed idle uses around half of the backlight at full. |
| 18:29.19 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Can you add the numbers we guessed up to the unresolved hardware questions wiki page (and heavily marking them as "educated guess")? |
| 18:31.38 | xkr47 | http://xkcd.com/c149.html |
| 18:31.39 | SpeedEvil | Sure. |
| 18:31.54 | SpeedEvil | PCLK must be over 20MHZ for USB device controller to work stably |
| 18:32.14 | SpeedEvil | I'm trying to work out how USB works at low speed, and LCD first. |
| 18:32.20 | Elrond | So no USB at 12MHz. |
| 18:32.31 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Cool. :) |
| 18:34.58 | jebba | actually the LM4857 does .5W for stereo speakers @ 3.3V too. |
| 18:35.49 | Elrond | jebba - Yep. |
| 18:35.54 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: discussing slow and suspend modes? |
| 18:36.31 | jebba | Elrond, so then why have the LM4857? I just don't see what it brings to the table that's not already in the WM8753. |
| 18:37.05 | koen | jebba: loud distorted sounds to satisfy the asian market |
| 18:37.43 | jebba | but how is it louder than the WM8753 if they both have the same .5W? |
| 18:38.13 | koen | maybe it's more efficient as the WM amp |
| 18:38.19 | koen | but I seriously doubt that |
| 18:38.48 | Elrond | jebba - You verified the .5W for the WM? |
| 18:40.06 | jebba | "On-chip speaker driver with 0.5W into 8R" according to WM pdf |
| 18:40.30 | Elrond | hmpf. Not even numbers for power consumption on this *hrm* gps thing. |
| 18:41.25 | natetrue | has to be pretty efficient if they're even thinking of putting it in a phone |
| 18:41.47 | koen | natetrue: nah, just needs good marketing |
| 18:42.54 | Elrond | The GL thing looks much like marketing. |
| 18:43.11 | SpeedEvil | Elrond: prpplague: yes - I think the LCD works - but it may be too slow to actually be useful. Most other stuff seems to work too. |
| 18:43.15 | *** join/#openmoko buz (n=buz@80-218-148-33.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 18:43.24 | SpeedEvil | As in - it may not meet the timing constraints of the LCD. |
| 18:43.33 | SpeedEvil | Which there is no data on at all which is public. |
| 18:44.15 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Good. :-) |
| 18:44.21 | Elrond | Hmm. USB might not work, right? |
| 18:44.35 | SpeedEvil | There are _lots_ of clocking registers. |
| 18:44.47 | SpeedEvil | I'm trying to work out what PCLK over 20MHZ means. |
| 18:44.59 | Elrond | Ahh. |
| 18:45.02 | natetrue | pixel clock |
| 18:45.14 | SpeedEvil | If it means that it has to run at 20MHz, not 12MHz, then that's not so bad. |
| 18:45.18 | SpeedEvil | No, it's not pixel clock. |
| 18:45.36 | natetrue | pants clock? |
| 18:45.45 | gabaug | SpeedEvil: what else would it mean? |
| 18:46.03 | SpeedEvil | It's not - it's one of the key clock lines in the processor. |
| 18:46.15 | SpeedEvil | There is nothing so simple as pixel clock - as it's a generic LCD interface. |
| 18:46.19 | natetrue | peripheral clock? |
| 18:46.22 | SpeedEvil | Which may have several clocking schemes. |
| 18:46.25 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@24.crcr10.xdsl.nauticom.net) |
| 18:46.30 | SpeedEvil | The name of it helps not at all. |
| 18:46.35 | natetrue | pie clock? |
| 18:47.03 | natetrue | NO NOT A BATH |
| 18:47.06 | natetrue | i mean |
| 18:47.09 | natetrue | NO DON'T STAB ME |
| 18:47.19 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - USB might be a problem. Read the end of http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2007/02/05/#20070205-usbserial-neo1973 |
| 18:48.11 | fluffs | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:48.19 | *** join/#openmoko greentux (n=lemke@195.227.105.180) |
| 18:48.55 | natetrue | weird, timing issue |
| 18:52.23 | *** join/#openmoko vmaster_ (i=vmaster@p5B07C996.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 18:53.22 | *** join/#openmoko GaKkGaKk (i=Viko@vpn-222102.vpn-s.ntnu.no) |
| 18:54.59 | *** join/#openmoko woglinde (i=woglinde@e178076073.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 18:57.27 | *** join/#openmoko apardo_ (n=apardo@87.217.145.219) |
| 18:58.20 | *** join/#openmoko AcidBurn1 (n=None@rrcs-70-61-64-56.midsouth.biz.rr.com) |
| 18:58.27 | AcidBurn1 | Are we there yet? lol |
| 18:58.49 | xkr47 | at least we are here |
| 18:58.50 | *** join/#openmoko Eludias (n=eludias@wingding.demon.nl) |
| 18:59.24 | AcidBurn1 | lol |
| 18:59.33 | AcidBurn1 | so when can we download for testing? |
| 19:00.24 | koen | since last week |
| 19:00.36 | koen | google is your friend |
| 19:00.37 | Elrond | AcidBurn1 - It's nearly all online and public. |
| 19:00.42 | AcidBurn1 | lol |
| 19:00.59 | Elrond | ... unless you want to download the phone itself... |
| 19:01.03 | AcidBurn1 | have been very busy setting up servers... havent had time to read the 1,00 releases sent from the list this week |
| 19:01.04 | AcidBurn1 | lmao |
| 19:01.51 | *** part/#openmoko sircrow (n=sircrow@sd511685b.adsl.wanadoo.nl) |
| 19:02.12 | AcidBurn1 | hmm I cant find a dl on google |
| 19:02.32 | Elrond | AcidBurn1 - Start at www.openmoko.org |
| 19:03.07 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - a sirfIII module is 75mA at 3.3V. (just to add some guess-numbers to your list) |
| 19:04.39 | AcidBurn1 | Can I put openmoko on my windows mobile nextel i930 lol |
| 19:05.22 | Elrond | AcidBurn1 - If you get to port the kernel... |
| 19:06.10 | AcidBurn1 | K... i must be stupid lol... I dont see a dl for openmoko online.... i am blind today |
| 19:06.52 | koen | or just lazy |
| 19:07.31 | AcidBurn1 | nah... im looking... im trying to work on my clients pc's and look for the dl... |
| 19:09.01 | Elrond | AcidBurn1 - It depends on what you want to dl. |
| 19:09.09 | Elrond | source: Get it by svn. |
| 19:09.22 | Elrond | binary for arm: It's linked in the wiki. |
| 19:10.52 | *** join/#openmoko Kaco (n=kanzels@adsl-dyn183.91-127-116.t-com.sk) |
| 19:16.59 | AcidBurn1 | I am using Windows.. do I need Linux to install? |
| 19:23.19 | *** join/#openmoko ericthefish (n=ivan@82-71-36-214.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) |
| 19:26.00 | greentux | counter? |
| 19:26.01 | aloril | source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; a week, 2 days 16:33:59 (3.690 - 9.690 days) for devices for selected developers (2007-02-28); a month, a week, 2 days (25.690 - 40.690 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-31); 7 months, a week, 2 days (193.690 - 223.690 days) for mass market (2007-09-30): see topic for more info (362) |
| 19:26.42 | *** join/#openmoko Kite_DH (n=Kite_DH@p57B3546E.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 19:26.47 | Kite_DH | hello everybody |
| 19:31.00 | LuitvD | hello Kite_DH |
| 19:31.17 | *** join/#openmoko aevin (n=brootvor@150.80-203-127.nextgentel.com) |
| 19:31.25 | Kite_DH | are there any screens yet of openmoko? |
| 19:31.33 | LuitvD | Kite_DH: yeah :D |
| 19:31.38 | Kite_DH | can i see them? |
| 19:31.47 | SpeedEvil | Elrond: Thanks - I'm looking for better numbers. |
| 19:31.48 | LuitvD | Kite_DH: take a guess ;) |
| 19:31.53 | *** join/#openmoko cato` (i=hcm@91.135.33.159) |
| 19:31.55 | Kite_DH | i would like to |
| 19:31.57 | LuitvD | Kite_DH: look at the channel topic ;) |
| 19:32.13 | Kite_DH | eeeh..whats with it |
| 19:32.21 | LuitvD | www.openmoko.org |
| 19:32.22 | LuitvD | ;) |
| 19:32.25 | Kite_DH | oh |
| 19:32.27 | Kite_DH | thx |
| 19:32.29 | LuitvD | :D |
| 19:32.31 | Stephmw | Interesting contraption... http://1024k.de/dualsim/dual-sim-adapter.html |
| 19:32.46 | Kite_DH | amazing |
| 19:33.17 | Kite_DH | looks almost like my imaginary cellphone layouts |
| 19:33.20 | cato` | will the neo1972 bluetooth-stack support a2dp? |
| 19:33.22 | Kite_DH | wanna see them?? |
| 19:33.25 | Kite_DH | i designed some with PS |
| 19:33.28 | Kite_DH | for motorola |
| 19:33.59 | Stephmw | there's really only so many shapes you can make a phone ;) |
| 19:34.03 | LuitvD | Kite_DH: you're free to do what you want :) |
| 19:34.05 | [g2] | Morgaine around ? |
| 19:34.49 | Kite_DH | http://i5.tinypic.com/2d7ahl2.jpg |
| 19:34.53 | Kite_DH | http://i5.tinypic.com/2yjpo5v.jpg |
| 19:34.56 | Kite_DH | http://i19.tinypic.com/2eed5ag.jpg |
| 19:34.59 | Kite_DH | http://i5.tinypic.com/2vk1get.jpg |
| 19:35.02 | Kite_DH | http://i18.tinypic.com/4ibfwxi.jpg |
| 19:35.03 | Kite_DH | :( |
| 19:35.16 | Kite_DH | not as nice as OpenMoko is |
| 19:35.22 | Kite_DH | but maybe i can use it for my plans |
| 19:36.04 | LuitvD | Kite_DH: i like this one: http://i5.tinypic.com/2yjpo5v.jpg |
| 19:36.18 | Kite_DH | hehe KRZR |
| 19:36.18 | LuitvD | slidephone right? |
| 19:36.19 | Kite_DH | =) |
| 19:36.32 | Kite_DH | i think its a slider |
| 19:36.34 | Kite_DH | im not sure tho |
| 19:36.38 | Kite_DH | wait a second |
| 19:37.07 | Kite_DH | yes |
| 19:37.08 | Kite_DH | slider |
| 19:37.09 | Kite_DH | ^^ |
| 19:37.24 | LuitvD | I like the design... |
| 19:37.25 | Kite_DH | actually cellphones are a sideproject of us |
| 19:37.42 | Kite_DH | we're makin' an OS |
| 19:37.44 | LuitvD | but I'd change it a bit to apply it to be an openmoko device... |
| 19:38.04 | Kite_DH | does ur cellphone have OpenMoko? |
| 19:38.09 | LuitvD | (I'd love to see a WVGA screen in that size) |
| 19:38.21 | LuitvD | Kite_DH: my current doesn't, but my next will :) |
| 19:38.25 | Kite_DH | heheh |
| 19:38.38 | LuitvD | the only openmoko featured device as-of now is the FIC Neo1973 |
| 19:38.42 | Kite_DH | is there a hardware support for every cellphone? |
| 19:38.47 | Kite_DH | oh |
| 19:38.58 | LuitvD | which will be available for testing next week |
| 19:39.05 | LuitvD | for some people |
| 19:39.12 | woglinde | counter |
| 19:39.12 | aloril | P0: a week, 2 days 16:20:47 (3.681 - 9.681 days); P1: 25.681 - 40.681; P2: 193.681 - 223.681 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (363) |
| 19:39.15 | LuitvD | and in a month any developer can buy it |
| 19:39.20 | Kite_DH | how big is the team? |
| 19:39.59 | woglinde | hm I read once about 20 people |
| 19:40.04 | SpeedEvil | Elrond: the closest match I can find is the maxim http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/an_pk/3447 - 13ma @ 3V |
| 19:40.06 | Kite_DH | do you need somebody to translate? |
| 19:40.09 | Kite_DH | im german u c |
| 19:40.09 | woglinde | but dont know fre sure |
| 19:40.29 | Kite_DH | maybe u could make a translation job |
| 19:40.29 | woglinde | kite here are enough over germans too |
| 19:40.34 | SpeedEvil | Hjowever, this is without the correlators and addition hardware - which is not very much. I'd say 20mA @3V is probably reasonable. |
| 19:40.37 | Kite_DH | ok |
| 19:40.39 | Kite_DH | sry^^ |
| 19:40.49 | LuitvD | Kite_DH: more translators is better... IMHO |
| 19:40.51 | *** join/#openmoko apardo (n=apardo@87.217.145.219) |
| 19:41.39 | woglinde | kit_dh sorry I misunderstand your question |
| 19:42.39 | *** join/#openmoko yacc (n=andreas@h1634.serverkompetenz.net) |
| 19:43.52 | Kite_DH | woglinde: what do you mean |
| 19:46.48 | *** join/#openmoko parag0n_ (n=parag0n@popeshoe.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 19:48.10 | LuitvD | bluh, hell does exist... |
| 19:48.17 | *** part/#openmoko GaKkGaKk (i=Viko@vpn-222102.vpn-s.ntnu.no) |
| 19:48.29 | *** join/#openmoko vrt (n=vrt@unaffiliated/cherubiel) |
| 19:48.48 | LuitvD | desoldering IC's without desoldering-litze or tin-sucker with a regular soldering iron |
| 19:49.09 | LuitvD | :( |
| 19:49.23 | SpeedEvil | What ICs? |
| 19:49.33 | SpeedEvil | And do you want to keep them? |
| 19:49.55 | LuitvD | yes, i do want to keep them, that's why I'm desoldering them |
| 19:50.13 | LuitvD | but I just ran out of litze, and my tinsucker doesn't work anymore |
| 19:50.35 | LuitvD | (it's a DIP8 PIC12F507) |
| 19:51.00 | LuitvD | PIC12C508, sorry :P |
| 19:55.02 | SpeedEvil | You don't need litz for DIP8. |
| 19:55.17 | SpeedEvil | Take solder, blob it onto the 4 pins on one side. |
| 19:55.29 | SpeedEvil | heat up, while gently lifting one side of the chip. |
| 19:55.40 | SpeedEvil | repeat on other side. |
| 19:55.51 | SpeedEvil | do this 4-5 times, and it pops out. |
| 19:59.25 | SpeedEvil | Elrond: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Power_Management |
| 20:00.25 | SpeedEvil | LuitvD: you do know that's a one-time-programmable chip? |
| 20:01.07 | LuitvD | yes |
| 20:01.13 | LuitvD | but I like the program :) |
| 20:01.15 | LuitvD | ;) |
| 20:01.32 | LuitvD | thanks, it works :D |
| 20:04.06 | jannu | can the touchscreen hardware on the v1 return the area that's pressed, or just a single point? |
| 20:04.17 | jebba | i have the kernel and userspace booting up under qemu fine now (x86 build). I can get xwindows to start, but it looks way "off" (wrong colors, color bars, etc) |
| 20:04.20 | LuitvD | jannu: point |
| 20:04.34 | jannu | LuitvD: damn |
| 20:04.47 | LuitvD | jannu: it's a standard touchscreen, which generally gives you the average ;) |
| 20:05.07 | LuitvD | jannu: if you touch two places, it'll take the average x position and the average y position |
| 20:05.28 | jannu | LuitvD: so there's basically no way to distinguish between a stylus and a finger |
| 20:05.31 | LuitvD | (that is ofcourse the simplified explanation, it's actually more difficult) |
| 20:05.34 | SpeedEvil | no. |
| 20:05.36 | LuitvD | jannu: not really |
| 20:05.38 | SpeedEvil | you can't. |
| 20:05.47 | LuitvD | well... |
| 20:05.52 | LuitvD | lol |
| 20:06.17 | LuitvD | there might be a way... but if you then use your nail, it'll think it's a stylus |
| 20:06.32 | jannu | LuitvD: that's not a problem |
| 20:06.32 | *** join/#openmoko florian_ (n=fuchs@217.146.132.69) |
| 20:06.50 | LuitvD | if the touchscreen can be probed rapidly, the pressure attack rate can maybe be measured... |
| 20:07.02 | LuitvD | s/maybe/possibly/ |
| 20:07.34 | jannu | I was thinking of using that information with the input system |
| 20:07.39 | natetrue | some touchscreen controllers can measure the wideness of the touch |
| 20:08.24 | jannu | the idea being that instead of recording just the on-screen key that was pressed, the system would record the exact position, which was pressed |
| 20:08.50 | natetrue | ah i get you |
| 20:09.02 | natetrue | and use the positions to dynamically recalculate the letters that were pressed before |
| 20:09.04 | natetrue | given new input |
| 20:09.12 | LuitvD | :P |
| 20:09.13 | natetrue | sounds CPU heavy |
| 20:09.16 | jannu | then the system would use the positioning of the on-screen keys and create a probability distribution of glyphs |
| 20:09.41 | natetrue | and use something like particle filtering or kalman filtering to determine what words have been typed |
| 20:10.06 | jannu | natetrue: yes. basically T9, but with a much higher resolution |
| 20:10.24 | natetrue | nice |
| 20:10.58 | *** join/#openmoko Sum1 (n=Sum1@80.175.142.81) |
| 20:11.16 | natetrue | and with that you can have alternate dimensions to filter on too |
| 20:11.24 | natetrue | for example "thumb press offset" |
| 20:11.41 | jannu | and if you can distinguish between a finger and a stulys, you could use that information to weigh the glyphs at different distances accordingly |
| 20:11.46 | natetrue | like when you use your thumb it's always x and y far off the button you want |
| 20:11.52 | natetrue | that makes sense |
| 20:12.24 | natetrue | ...does the hardware design for the neo have a stylus holster? |
| 20:12.28 | *** join/#openmoko MetaBookfoziS (n=sajt@3e70cf46.adsl.enternet.hu) |
| 20:12.29 | natetrue | i don't remember seeing one |
| 20:12.35 | jannu | no |
| 20:12.39 | natetrue | eugh |
| 20:12.45 | natetrue | base on thumbs then :) |
| 20:12.48 | jannu | which is one more reason to make sure finger input works |
| 20:12.53 | jannu | exactly |
| 20:12.56 | natetrue | no one is going to carry a stylus with them all the time |
| 20:12.59 | natetrue | and anyone who does |
| 20:13.08 | natetrue | will lose it quickly |
| 20:13.11 | *** join/#openmoko zecke (n=ich@91.64.160.193) |
| 20:13.29 | jannu | I've always thought that if Iäm carrying a pen, I might as well use paper |
| 20:13.34 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 20:13.38 | natetrue | but are you also carrying paper |
| 20:13.39 | jannu | s/Iäm/I'm/ |
| 20:13.40 | SpeedEvil | Paper ++ |
| 20:13.50 | natetrue | and can you hit 'send' on the paper to message someone |
| 20:14.19 | *** join/#openmoko pirulo (n=andres_p@65.19.28.123) |
| 20:14.37 | jannu | natetrue: surprisingly enough, no |
| 20:14.54 | natetrue | cool though that may be |
| 20:15.22 | jannu | having a stylus is great for some things though |
| 20:15.24 | natetrue | unless there's one of these that supports bluetooth http://www.iogear.com/main.php?loc=product&Item=GPEN200N |
| 20:15.39 | jannu | like sketching |
| 20:16.03 | natetrue | maybe it's just my lack of coordination |
| 20:16.10 | natetrue | but i like sketching better when it's on pen and paper |
| 20:16.39 | jannu | I like most things better with pen and paper |
| 20:16.51 | natetrue | though i'd be loath to try and IRC with a pen and paper |
| 20:16.55 | natetrue | even if it did work somehow |
| 20:16.57 | natetrue | i am better at typing |
| 20:17.08 | SpeedEvil | IRC + drawing would be fun. |
| 20:17.16 | natetrue | granted |
| 20:17.24 | jannu | unfortunately the undo and layer functions of paper aren't exactly state-of-the-art |
| 20:17.32 | natetrue | tracing paper? |
| 20:17.39 | SpeedEvil | Switchable 'whiteboard' and 'scroll with the text' images. |
| 20:17.45 | jannu | SpeedEvil: you can get that with msn |
| 20:17.57 | jannu | SpeedEvil: IRC+drawing I mean |
| 20:18.10 | SpeedEvil | yeah. |
| 20:18.23 | jannu | SpeedEvil: one of the actually useful features |
| 20:18.29 | buz | looks like my p900 is in its last breaths |
| 20:18.33 | buz | fic better hurry up |
| 20:18.46 | natetrue | my treo 600 is still churning |
| 20:18.55 | natetrue | still works great, except for 2-day battery life |
| 20:19.08 | natetrue | beats my palmos watch's one-day battery life |
| 20:19.09 | xkr47 | :O |
| 20:19.16 | buz | well that hass been true for the p900 for a while |
| 20:19.44 | natetrue | gross |
| 20:19.48 | CoreDump|afk | hehe |
| 20:19.51 | buz | i wonder what timeframe these 5 devices should appear in |
| 20:19.52 | natetrue | rubbing alcohol? |
| 20:20.08 | CoreDump|afk | naikan: kidding |
| 20:20.28 | CoreDump|afk | s/naikan/natetrue |
| 20:20.40 | natetrue | /sg? |
| 20:21.35 | natetrue | happy foraging |
| 20:25.49 | jannu | hmm. thumb press area has a diameter of roughly 1cm (well, my thumb does anyway) |
| 20:26.03 | SpeedEvil | The corner of the thumb is less. |
| 20:26.22 | jannu | if you were to put a full qwerty keyboard (11 keys in a row (10 for english layout)) on the v1 screen in portrait mode, you'd have roughle 0,4 cm of horizontal space per key |
| 20:27.03 | SpeedEvil | Yeah - it's gonna sort-of-work. |
| 20:27.09 | SpeedEvil | If you are very, very careful. |
| 20:27.43 | jannu | SpeedEvil: yeah, and if the statistical correction thingie actually works |
| 20:27.43 | SpeedEvil | With a stylus, it should work OK. |
| 20:27.54 | roh | i do not believe in querty on touch... more in adding a numeric-block and gsm-style input for single lines and bt-keyboards for more |
| 20:28.10 | SpeedEvil | I do wonder about dasher. |
| 20:28.51 | jannu | roh: the point is that with a full qwerty keyboard the predictive text system has more infromation to work with |
| 20:28.51 | SpeedEvil | With the thumb in the corner, you rock it to simulate a mouse. |
| 20:29.33 | roh | jannu with a usable querty i do not need any prediction |
| 20:30.07 | SpeedEvil | With human adult fingers, you can't do usable qwerty in portrait. |
| 20:30.10 | jannu | roh: that is, we don't really even expect you to hit a 0,4cm size key, but if you hit anywhere close to it, the prediction system can quess what you wanted to write |
| 20:30.15 | SpeedEvil | And it's really marginal in landscape. |
| 20:30.23 | jannu | yeah. |
| 20:30.39 | jannu | it's bearable in landscape, but I for one wouldn't use it |
| 20:31.00 | roh | jannu i propably need to touch and try it.. but for day-to-day-usage i'd vote for less keys and more smart guis which do not need text to be input |
| 20:31.52 | SpeedEvil | I think 12 button 'standard' texting is probably about OK. |
| 20:32.04 | SpeedEvil | You can just about do it blind, with practice. |
| 20:32.16 | SpeedEvil | Though on a touchscreen, it's still going to be annoying. |
| 20:32.22 | jannu | roh: my main objective is to make it usable for text messaging |
| 20:32.29 | *** join/#openmoko cying (n=cying@adsl-75-41-125-242.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) |
| 20:32.41 | roh | jannu i have a siemens simpad which has 800x600 with a onscreen keyboard on the bottom (4:3 display, 8 or 10 " |
| 20:33.20 | jannu | roh: what's the width of the screen? |
| 20:33.24 | roh | jannu for messaging i'd propably prefer something that zooms when pressing.. and lets me move my finger |
| 20:33.37 | SpeedEvil | On an unrelated topic. |
| 20:33.42 | SpeedEvil | Well - sort of related. |
| 20:33.52 | SpeedEvil | xvkbd + thumbstick gets me around 8wpm. |
| 20:34.17 | SpeedEvil | On a similar sized bit of screen to the neo in portrait. |
| 20:34.26 | roh | jannu its 4:3 aspect in 8-10 inch i think.. so one inch less than a din-A4 paper is wide? |
| 20:34.37 | roh | s/wide/the smaller side of the A4 |
| 20:34.47 | SpeedEvil | with the finger using a small area of the screen to act as a joystick. |
| 20:36.08 | jannu | roh: so basically a lot more than 4,3 cm |
| 20:36.29 | roh | jannu YES |
| 20:37.01 | roh | and i must admit it is pain to type there.. buttons are 1cm wide or so and 0.7 in height |
| 20:38.10 | jannu | roh: that's more or less the minimum size for thumb input |
| 20:38.46 | jannu | roh: and the best we can do on the v1 screen is 0,5cm |
| 20:39.13 | roh | thats what i meant.. will not really be usable without pen.. and still be annoying to type |
| 20:39.19 | jannu | roh: that's full qwerty in landscape orientation |
| 20:39.56 | jannu | roh: that's why I was thinking about the statistical/spatial method |
| 20:40.17 | roh | hm.. yeah.. give it a try.. and surprise me ;) |
| 20:40.49 | jannu | roh: you can obviously just use the normal 12-button keypad, but you still need predictive input with that |
| 20:41.14 | roh | guis are not a technology which is near its perfection.. so there is a lot to try out |
| 20:42.48 | jannu | roh: yep. and even if this statistical thing works out, it still won't solve the complete lack of tactile feedback |
| 20:44.33 | roh | samsung had a nice idea for that... use a piezo buzzer to klick or even a vibra-thingie |
| 20:44.44 | roh | propably patented |
| 20:45.12 | roh | so.. guys.. i have to leave.. to the bar ;) |
| 20:57.11 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03mickey * r1043 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/openmoko-dialer.pro: openmoko-dialer: update .pro file |
| 20:57.22 | CoreDump|home | counter |
| 20:57.23 | aloril | P0: a week, 2 days 15:02:37 (3.627 - 9.627 days); P1: 25.627 - 40.627; P2: 193.627 - 223.627 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (364) |
| 21:00.21 | *** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru) |
| 21:01.37 | *** join/#openmoko tapo (i=tjabo@vmax.unix-ag.uni-siegen.de) |
| 21:07.18 | *** join/#openmoko _rob (n=rob@ACB6D7CA.ipt.aol.com) |
| 21:11.14 | natetrue | i wonder why they left UMTS/HSDPA out of the phone |
| 21:11.26 | SpeedEvil | power |
| 21:11.29 | SpeedEvil | market |
| 21:11.34 | SpeedEvil | volume |
| 21:11.37 | SpeedEvil | price |
| 21:11.57 | natetrue | hmm, i see |
| 21:15.57 | SpeedEvil | Maybe in a future version. |
| 21:16.06 | natetrue | here's hopin' |
| 21:16.33 | natetrue | that said i have a treo 600 with just GPRS and i do plenty of things with it |
| 21:16.39 | natetrue | email is a good app for that slow speed |
| 21:16.47 | natetrue | google maps loads somewhat quickly |
| 21:16.53 | *** join/#openmoko pleemans (n=peter@d51A5E76A.access.telenet.be) |
| 21:16.55 | natetrue | i mean, it's usable |
| 21:17.42 | *** join/#openmoko disguy__ (i=ariel@gateway/tor/x-0b16d85a5a80533e) |
| 21:20.33 | *** join/#openmoko cying (n=cying@adsl-75-41-125-242.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) |
| 21:21.20 | Elrond | Hmmm, should I2C be renamed to "Neo1973 I2C"? |
| 21:24.24 | natetrue | why would they do that |
| 21:25.04 | *** part/#openmoko tapo (i=tjabo@vmax.unix-ag.uni-siegen.de) |
| 21:25.14 | Elrond | natetrue - What? |
| 21:25.58 | natetrue | rename it |
| 21:26.26 | Elrond | I talk about the wiki. Why: Because the page explains the details of i2c on the neo. |
| 21:26.34 | natetrue | ah |
| 21:26.52 | ericthefish | it may mention other devices in the future though, I think it's ok as it is |
| 21:27.04 | Elrond | Okay. |
| 21:27.54 | natetrue | yeah, it has all the neo-specific info under a "neo1973" heading |
| 21:28.03 | ericthefish | mm |
| 21:32.35 | *** join/#openmoko Valed (n=Valed@84.229.67.223) |
| 21:33.45 | *** join/#openmoko vetetix (n=vetetix@50.25-218-195.adsl.internet.lu) |
| 21:45.06 | LuitvD | just soldered 2 new ones for my to-be Neo :D |
| 21:45.23 | natetrue | how sweet |
| 21:45.50 | LuitvD | and tomorrow I'll change the plug on my headphones to 2,5mm :) |
| 21:46.22 | Elrond | *G* |
| 21:46.52 | LuitvD | soon I'll be all-prepared for the big switch to free my phone, and use only free software on my 'computer' hardware |
| 21:46.53 | LuitvD | :) |
| 21:47.12 | Elrond | Except for agpsd. ;o) |
| 21:47.17 | LuitvD | lol |
| 21:47.40 | LuitvD | true... but it's not that bad... never used GPS before in my life... |
| 21:48.01 | LuitvD | I think I'll like it :) not use it, but just toy with it |
| 21:48.31 | Elrond | Yeah. :-) |
| 21:49.04 | LuitvD | what good is GPS for someone who knows his town, and only travels by bike :P |
| 21:49.19 | LuitvD | I think I'll sell my phone and pda... |
| 21:49.31 | xkr47 | :) |
| 21:49.36 | LuitvD | might get some money for those device :) |
| 21:49.41 | xkr47 | LuitvD, you can count how long you go biking :) |
| 21:49.44 | LuitvD | s/ice/icds/ |
| 21:49.46 | xkr47 | far* |
| 21:50.07 | LuitvD | yeah, can use it as a speedometer :P |
| 21:50.11 | mjr | sure he did... |
| 21:50.20 | LuitvD | don't need accurate speeds, just distances :P |
| 21:50.47 | LuitvD | well actually... I'm about to build my own speedometer :P with a microchip or something |
| 21:50.53 | LuitvD | program it, little OLED screen |
| 21:51.02 | LuitvD | some nice extra functions |
| 21:51.24 | Elrond | hihi |
| 21:51.38 | Elrond | LuitvD - You can help osm with your to-be gps. :) |
| 21:51.48 | LuitvD | osm? |
| 21:52.14 | LuitvD | I already made my own bike lighting :) maybe I'll add a micochip and bluetooth, so I'll have a remote control for my lights :) |
| 21:52.17 | LuitvD | that'd be neat |
| 21:52.36 | LuitvD | as soon as the phone is near, *bling* |
| 21:52.54 | Elrond | LuitvD - OpenStreetMap |
| 21:53.59 | LuitvD | (got nearly 50 leds on my bike :) ) |
| 21:53.59 | LuitvD | Elrond: how can I help osm ? |
| 21:54.00 | natetrue | i added lights to the wrists of my jacket |
| 21:54.00 | Elrond | LuitvD - www.openstreetmap.org |
| 21:54.00 | natetrue | very useful as flashlights |
| 21:54.01 | LuitvD | nice |
| 21:54.01 | LuitvD | :D |
| 21:54.01 | LuitvD | powered by what? |
| 21:54.01 | Elrond | LuitvD - Create a free map of your town. |
| 21:54.02 | natetrue | rechargeable li-ion |
| 21:54.09 | natetrue | wires run behind the jacket liner to an internal pocket |
| 21:54.13 | natetrue | gonna publish soon |
| 21:54.15 | LuitvD | Elrond: I guess there are quite some free maps of dutch towns already |
| 21:54.26 | LuitvD | natetrue: nice |
| 21:54.37 | natetrue | soon as i get this frickin' battery holder made |
| 21:54.47 | Elrond | LuitvD - Really? |
| 21:54.50 | natetrue | epoxy putty takes forever to set |
| 21:54.56 | LuitvD | my bike lighting works off the dynamo, and sustains power in a goldcap :) |
| 21:55.02 | Elrond | LuitvD - www.openstreetmap.org/index.html check, if it's in there. |
| 21:55.09 | LuitvD | 0,3F 5,5V |
| 21:56.01 | natetrue | you can get bigger caps |
| 21:56.05 | jebba | qemu: "Touch the crosshairs to calibrate the screen" :) |
| 21:56.16 | LuitvD | jebba: lol |
| 21:56.23 | LuitvD | jebba: what are you running? |
| 21:56.33 | LuitvD | jebba: the qemuarm port of openmoko? |
| 21:57.26 | LuitvD | natetrue: yeah, recently saw some 10F 2.5V caps :D |
| 21:57.39 | LuitvD | link them in series and you have 5F 5V :) |
| 21:57.52 | LuitvD | that's friggin power |
| 21:58.15 | natetrue | still nothing compared to the power densities of li-ion or li-poly |
| 21:58.23 | natetrue | unfortunately |
| 21:58.29 | jebba | LuitvD, ya, the qemuarm openmoko port. |
| 21:58.37 | LuitvD | natetrue: not quite... it's better... |
| 21:58.50 | LuitvD | natetrue: as soon as you're driving it gets charged... |
| 21:59.22 | LuitvD | and with that 0,3F goldcap I can run on the dynamo for a minute or two, and have leds burning for an hour |
| 21:59.33 | LuitvD | jebba: where did you get that? did you build it? |
| 22:00.12 | LuitvD | if you did, can I pleaeeaease have it? :) |
| 22:01.02 | LuitvD | Elrond: how does it work? you run around with your GPS device, and name the streets you're running through? |
| 22:01.08 | *** join/#openmoko bkuhn (n=bkuhn@atheist.ebb.org) |
| 22:02.37 | Elrond | LuitvD - basicly yes. |
| 22:02.45 | LuitvD | Elrond: cool :D |
| 22:03.15 | natetrue | sounds tedious |
| 22:03.22 | natetrue | the US gives away its street data |
| 22:03.24 | LuitvD | Elrond: I'll see if I can do some stuff for the openstreetmap :) |
| 22:03.28 | natetrue | part of the census bureau |
| 22:03.34 | jebba | LuitvD, yes. I built it. openmoko r1004. I'll write up some quick/dirty docs and put the images up before i sleep (but i may not sleep for a long time ;) |
| 22:04.20 | Elrond | natetrue - Other countries do not give it away for free :-| |
| 22:04.36 | LuitvD | jebba: meh... /me wants it |
| 22:04.36 | LuitvD | :) |
| 22:04.40 | *** join/#openmoko jim_rayner (n=jim_rayn@beyondvoice.plus.com) |
| 22:04.41 | Elrond | natetrue - At least not under a "free as in speach"-license. |
| 22:05.12 | natetrue | finally, an area where something about US intellectual property is better than other countries! |
| 22:05.28 | LuitvD | Elrond: who mapped utrecht? it's quite detailed... :| |
| 22:05.46 | xkr47 | Wanda seems to be very active on the wiki |
| 22:05.58 | natetrue | it's cool, all gov't publications are public domain |
| 22:06.10 | Elrond | LuitvD - Ask on irc.oftc.net:#osm I knew who might have been it, but forgot. |
| 22:06.11 | natetrue | so all the TIGER/Line data that describes all the streets is totally free if you can process it |
| 22:06.14 | LuitvD | natetrue: hell, how hard is it to digitize US street maps... it's rasterized as hell |
| 22:06.33 | natetrue | what do you mean |
| 22:06.56 | LuitvD | most cities in the US are all streets and avenues |
| 22:07.14 | LuitvD | not a single town or city in the netherlands is like that... |
| 22:07.30 | benJIman | You don't have roads? |
| 22:07.37 | SpeedEvil | Not in grids. |
| 22:07.38 | *** join/#openmoko zween (n=zween@80-47-249-244.lond-th.dynamic.dial.as9105.com) |
| 22:07.39 | natetrue | or are they all boulevards and causeways? |
| 22:08.08 | benJIman | Streets and avenues don't imply grid |
| 22:08.09 | natetrue | the census data i think is all driving data correlated with aerial photography |
| 22:08.34 | natetrue | lots of it was collected before GPS too, i think |
| 22:09.31 | LuitvD | i've got tons of streetplans of my town, dating from way before there even were computer... |
| 22:09.33 | LuitvD | s |
| 22:10.17 | LuitvD | jebba: if you're going to upload that image, where will you place it? |
| 22:10.41 | Elrond | LuitvD - If you wanted to use them to name streets on osm, you must make sure, that the copyright on those maps is gone. |
| 22:11.16 | natetrue | wow, strict |
| 22:11.31 | *** join/#openmoko wbx_ (n=wbx@gprs-pool-1-020.eplus-online.de) |
| 22:11.33 | natetrue | in the US there's a case that says map data is factual in nature and thus not susceptible to copyright |
| 22:12.05 | LuitvD | Elrond: what do you mean? I'm not going to use those maps :P I'm going to drive around, gps enabled, writing down names of streets from the signs |
| 22:12.17 | Elrond | natetrue - Well, if you put the "real facts" in osm, there really is no issue, where you got them from. |
| 22:12.28 | Elrond | But maps have copyright eastereggs. |
| 22:12.32 | LuitvD | :P |
| 22:12.36 | natetrue | really? |
| 22:12.54 | Elrond | Yes. |
| 22:13.02 | *** join/#openmoko Ryushin (i=proxy@windwalker.openinnovations.com) |
| 22:13.03 | natetrue | heh, make sure not to record the street "Copyright 1997 by Rand McNally inc. Boulevard" |
| 22:13.04 | Elrond | My town is full of wrong data in commercial maps. |
| 22:13.06 | *** join/#openmoko apardo (n=apardo@87.217.145.219) |
| 22:13.15 | natetrue | that's terrible |
| 22:13.20 | natetrue | "buy our maps they're inaccurate" |
| 22:13.33 | natetrue | bad selling point |
| 22:13.45 | Elrond | Buy our maps, they've copyright watermarks" ;) |
| 22:13.49 | LuitvD | :P |
| 22:14.08 | LuitvD | buy our maps too, and find the 10 diffrences :D |
| 22:14.21 | Elrond | *lol* |
| 22:14.37 | natetrue | i found that with epoxy putty if i mix more of the thicker stuff it sets faster! |
| 22:14.51 | Elrond | It's no big errors. Usually no body will enter addresses in those streets. |
| 22:15.06 | natetrue | very useful when you're making your own headphones http://cre.ations.net/creation/create-your-own-noise-blocking-in-ear-headphones |
| 22:15.11 | Elrond | (you wouldn't want to park in front of the courthouse, do you? ;) ) |
| 22:15.18 | LuitvD | natetrue: which is the 'thicker' stuff? the hardener or the base? |
| 22:15.19 | jebba | LuitvD, i'll just upload it to an ftp server i have access to. Right now X is fine, but doing 640x480 instead of 480x640... ;) |
| 22:15.27 | natetrue | i'm not sure, they're not labeled |
| 22:15.34 | natetrue | they're just "part a" and "part b" |
| 22:15.40 | LuitvD | jebba: which FTP server? |
| 22:15.49 | LuitvD | jebba: wanna know where I can find it tomorrow :P |
| 22:16.07 | LuitvD | natetrue: and of which do you need to mix more? a or b? |
| 22:16.15 | LuitvD | (by the description) |
| 22:16.37 | jebba | LuitvD, i'll post to the list |
| 22:16.51 | LuitvD | jebba: great :) |
| 22:19.06 | Elrond | LuitvD - You're in utrecht? |
| 22:19.29 | LuitvD | Elrond: just east of utrecht |
| 22:19.44 | LuitvD | about 10 kilometers east |
| 22:20.18 | Elrond | Ahh |
| 22:20.42 | LuitvD | how about you? do you live in utrecht? :) |
| 22:20.49 | LuitvD | XD |
| 22:21.02 | Elrond | No. ;) |
| 22:21.11 | Elrond | Near Frankfurt,Germany |
| 22:21.32 | fluffs | yay, linus finally merged rmk's tree |
| 22:22.22 | LuitvD | Elrond: I do go to Utrecht on a regular basis though... so the OSM map of utrecht will be usefull for me :) |
| 22:22.57 | Elrond | LuitvD - :) |
| 22:23.05 | xkr47 | gosh I wish wiki had a annotate function :) |
| 22:23.27 | stefan_schmidt | fluffs: The one with the many breaks or a new one? |
| 22:23.28 | LuitvD | Elrond: that way I'll never get lost in utrecht again at night :) |
| 22:23.37 | Elrond | xkr47 - BTW: Should we put Category:Hardware on all hardw<re related pages? |
| 22:23.46 | LuitvD | (happened once, after a performance of Pendulum) |
| 22:24.10 | xkr47 | Elrond, you mean wishlist pages also? |
| 22:24.14 | LuitvD | anybody here fan of Pendulum? or other D'n'B music? |
| 22:24.41 | Elrond | xkr47 - wishlist probably not. |
| 22:24.52 | LuitvD | xkr47: maybe make Hardware:Wishlist redirect to Wishlist:Hardware :P |
| 22:24.58 | xkr47 | Elrond, yeah I would think so too |
| 22:25.04 | xkr47 | LuitvD, naah :) |
| 22:25.08 | LuitvD | why not? |
| 22:25.10 | Elrond | ... Those probably on "Category:WishListHardware" or so. |
| 22:25.13 | LuitvD | makes it neater... |
| 22:25.23 | alp | LuitvD: was at a pendulum gig some weeks back |
| 22:25.34 | LuitvD | alp: where? |
| 22:25.35 | natetrue | LuitvD, it's part 'b' |
| 22:25.39 | xkr47 | Elrond, I guess all the I2C, LM1234 etc would fit the Hardware category |
| 22:25.49 | natetrue | i'm still trying to decide what to do with the other 90 17000mcd 3mm white LEDs i ordered |
| 22:25.55 | natetrue | used 10 in my jacket cuffs |
| 22:26.10 | Psi | what angle? |
| 22:26.18 | natetrue | not sure, probably small though |
| 22:26.20 | natetrue | 15 degrees-ish |
| 22:26.45 | Elrond | xkr47 - Yeah. I was considering going round and adding it to all the pages linked from "Hardware". |
| 22:26.48 | alp | LuitvD: warwick university, hosted at our fortnightly rave night Pressure |
| 22:27.05 | xkr47 | Elrond, I used emacs as help for easy editing :) |
| 22:27.09 | LuitvD | alp: nice :) |
| 22:27.27 | *** join/#openmoko DukeOfURL (n=chatzill@vc7-1-39.dsl.netrack.net) |
| 22:27.27 | xkr47 | I first copypasted all pages to edit to emacs, then macroed together the edit urls and then finally edited all in one swoop |
| 22:27.29 | Elrond | xkr47 - hehe, I should leave the mass-editing job to you. ;o) |
| 22:27.33 | xkr47 | (in multiple tabs :) |
| 22:27.48 | alp | yeah, i wrote some great code after getting back that morning and even made a release |
| 22:27.49 | xkr47 | Elrond, if you want |
| 22:28.24 | Elrond | xkr47 - Let me start at it. When I'm tired, I'll leave the rest to you. ;) |
| 22:28.28 | LuitvD | alp: D'n'B + programming :D |
| 22:28.39 | xkr47 | Elrond, I mean if you collect a list of pages, .. |
| 22:30.39 | natetrue | yo, what is the 'mtn' program |
| 22:30.51 | natetrue | internet says it's monotone but it's apparently not |
| 22:31.05 | natetrue | i installed monotone and there are no files named 'mtn' on my system |
| 22:32.18 | xkr47 | /usr/bin/mtn |
| 22:32.22 | xkr47 | is included in my monotone package |
| 22:32.30 | LuitvD | i've got OE.mtn... |
| 22:32.36 | xkr47 | monotone-0.32 |
| 22:32.53 | natetrue | weird |
| 22:32.53 | LuitvD | a file created by rwhitby's mokoMakefile |
| 22:33.51 | Elrond | xkr47 - http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hardware should be list. If any Hardware page is missing, it should be added there anyway. |
| 22:33.54 | natetrue | mine says 0.24 |
| 22:34.04 | natetrue | weird, apt-get install should install a recent version, shouldn't it? |
| 22:34.12 | LetoTo | natetrue: you must use 0.32 |
| 22:34.40 | xkr47 | ok |
| 22:34.42 | xkr47 | weöö |
| 22:34.45 | LuitvD | natetrue: apt-get doesn't always include the latest stable version, it gets the latest stable verified version |
| 22:34.50 | xkr47 | well.. maybe I postpone this til tomorrow :) |
| 22:35.01 | LuitvD | xkr47: postpone what? |
| 22:35.10 | xkr47 | (Elrond) |
| 22:35.15 | xkr47 | editing.. |
| 22:35.28 | Elrond | Yeah. |
| 22:35.33 | LuitvD | maybe I can do something usefull on the wiki... |
| 22:36.44 | natetrue | better than making lots of misinformative edits |
| 22:36.49 | LuitvD | true |
| 22:37.20 | natetrue | there we go, latest monotone makes the mtn |
| 22:41.40 | *** join/#openmoko suspence (n=spencer@208.187.196.34) |
| 22:43.02 | LuitvD | the neo actually has a quite nice power amplifier... |
| 22:43.03 | *** join/#openmoko ajturner (n=ajturner@d14-69-64-67.try.wideopenwest.com) |
| 22:43.30 | natetrue | i wonder if it can be leveraged to do FM transmission |
| 22:43.58 | LuitvD | what's the impedance of the internal 1W speakers? |
| 22:44.16 | Elrond | LuitvD - No idea |
| 22:44.22 | natetrue | 19kHz i'd wager |
| 22:44.30 | LuitvD | that's no impedance ;) |
| 22:44.50 | natetrue | ahh, you caught me |
| 22:45.33 | LuitvD | "0.5W stereo speaker output, used for the main speakers." says the wiki, and the power amplifier generates 1.2W on 8Ohm |
| 22:46.07 | LuitvD | so it must be 16 Ohms impedance, which means it's powered to 0,6W... |
| 22:47.35 | natetrue | how loud is that in babies |
| 22:47.50 | LuitvD | babies? |
| 22:48.01 | LuitvD | lol, that's not an SI unit now is it? :P |
| 22:48.53 | natetrue | it's in line right behind rhode islands and libraries of congress |
| 22:54.13 | *** join/#openmoko cying_ (n=cying@adsl-75-41-125-242.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) |
| 22:54.16 | LuitvD | natetrue: you can't directly convert output power to amount of noise... because you don't know the amount of energy conversion of the speakers.. |
| 22:54.40 | LuitvD | what do you call that for speakers... amount of electrical energy converted to sound... |
| 22:54.41 | *** join/#openmoko rejon (n=rejon@c-24-7-58-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 22:54.48 | LuitvD | anybody? :P |
| 22:54.54 | *** part/#openmoko rejon (n=rejon@c-24-7-58-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 22:56.07 | Elrond | I once was supposed to know it ;) |
| 22:56.31 | LuitvD | Elrond: lol |
| 22:57.09 | LuitvD | I'd call it "Rendement" ... most translaters convert that to "Yield" ... but that's not it.. I guess |
| 22:57.37 | Elrond | I forgot it... |
| 22:57.57 | ericthefish | I've no idea, but "effective power output"? |
| 22:58.11 | LuitvD | more like relative effective power output... |
| 22:58.28 | LuitvD | effective sounds ... too absolute :P |
| 22:58.39 | ericthefish | I think you're the expert on this |
| 22:59.19 | LuitvD | don't think so... |
| 22:59.25 | ericthefish | me I just crank the volume up as far as it'll go |
| 22:59.36 | LuitvD | I'm dutch :P that makes be a bad english speaker |
| 22:59.52 | LuitvD | ericthefish: lol, and blow up your speakers :) |
| 22:59.57 | Elrond | "efficiency factor" |
| 23:00.14 | Elrond | ? |
| 23:00.14 | ericthefish | write the word in dutch - I wouldn't know the difference anyway ;) |
| 23:00.31 | LuitvD | efficiency sounds good enough :P |
| 23:00.32 | LuitvD | lol |
| 23:00.34 | Elrond | In german it's "Wirkungsgrad". |
| 23:00.53 | LuitvD | in dutch it's "Rendement" |
| 23:01.03 | LuitvD | (I already said that I guess...) |
| 23:02.13 | Elrond | While I play on epay: When will be the first neo on epay? ;) |
| 23:02.41 | *** join/#openmoko rwhitby (n=rwhitby@nslu2-linux/rwhitby) |
| 23:02.58 | LuitvD | epay? |
| 23:03.05 | Elrond | LuitvD - aka ebay. |
| 23:03.25 | LuitvD | lol |
| 23:03.31 | Elrond | aka epain. |
| 23:03.42 | LuitvD | :) |
| 23:06.26 | LuitvD | Elrond: soldering thick double shielded wire into a 2,5mm jackplug socket is more a pain then buying on ebay |
| 23:07.28 | Elrond | I couldn't do something like that anyway. |
| 23:07.38 | *** join/#openmoko Marex-debian (n=Marex@85.132.236.161) |
| 23:07.52 | LuitvD | now I have a 2,5mm male jack > 3.5mm female jack and a 3,5mm male jack > 2,5mm female jack :) |
| 23:08.22 | Elrond | tihi. |
| 23:08.38 | Elrond | You bought the right 2.5mm ones? With 4 rings? |
| 23:09.09 | LuitvD | Elrond: will make one with 4 rings.. but it's not necessary |
| 23:10.15 | Elrond | I guess, the 4 rings are for mic and speakers. |
| 23:10.15 | *** join/#openmoko Rac0r (n=Rac0r@p5081EDFB.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 23:10.16 | LuitvD | soldering thick audio cable in a regular 2,5mm female jack is difficult enough with only 3 rings :P |
| 23:10.50 | LuitvD | Elrond: yeah, but I don't need to connect 3,5mm headsets to my devices... I'll only use it for regular headphones |
| 23:11.11 | LuitvD | the microphone will be pulled to ground that way... |
| 23:11.25 | LuitvD | is that bad? |
| 23:12.55 | LuitvD | but i'm not sure yet... :( |
| 23:13.06 | Elrond | I don't know... I thought, they were powerd/active mics? |
| 23:13.34 | LuitvD | yeah... |
| 23:13.51 | LuitvD | hope shorting the terminals won't short out the mic power... |
| 23:14.04 | LuitvD | err |
| 23:14.19 | LuitvD | they're powered by the plug ;) |
| 23:14.32 | LuitvD | normal headsets don't use batteries or something :) |
| 23:14.58 | LuitvD | (anyways, I can get a decent headset for about 5 bucks, so if this won't work, I'll just buy that |
| 23:15.43 | Elrond | the headset is included with the neo, I hear. |
| 23:17.50 | LuitvD | Elrond: is it now? :O |
| 23:17.54 | LuitvD | Elrond: that'd be nice |
| 23:18.24 | LuitvD | Elrond: just a regular headset, or a fashion-headset like the ipod earbuds? :P |
| 23:19.36 | Elrond | I have no idea. |
| 23:20.04 | Elrond | Hopefully no 50Cent crap... |
| 23:20.45 | LuitvD | honestly, I don't care what kind of headset :P don't even need a headset I guess... |
| 23:20.47 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@dsl093-060-111.pit1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 23:21.14 | LuitvD | Elrond: a mini-usb > usb host connector would be nicer :P |
| 23:21.26 | Elrond | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Audio_Subsystem#using_analog_.284pin_2.5mm.29_headset |
| 23:21.36 | Elrond | Read the first sentence there. |
| 23:22.33 | *** join/#openmoko ray (i=ray@tapthru/operator/ray) |
| 23:23.41 | LuitvD | that wolfson chip really is a nice IC |
| 23:23.52 | Elrond | And the sentence is there from the first version in january of this page. |
| 23:23.58 | LuitvD | I like the bluetooth-headset-function |
| 23:24.18 | Elrond | Yeah, they made a good job. |
| 23:24.23 | LuitvD | Elrond: haven't read that page that thoroughly yet |
| 23:24.38 | LuitvD | no, they've chosen the right chip :P |
| 23:24.59 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03mickey * r1044 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/panel-plugins/openmoko-panel-battery/data/ (Battery_00.png Battery_Warning.png): openmoko-panel-battery: rename warning image to 00 |
| 23:25.26 | LuitvD | what's that? |
| 23:26.04 | Elrond | What's what? |
| 23:26.06 | LuitvD | does CIA-7 report all the changes in the trunk src? |
| 23:26.32 | LuitvD | haven't seen him do that before... |
| 23:28.17 | Elrond | It did it before. While back. |
| 23:29.37 | rwhitby | LuitvD: http://cia.navi.cx/stats/project/openmoko |
| 23:30.46 | LuitvD | rwhitby: ah, nice :) |
| 23:31.10 | LuitvD | rwhitby: does it check changes in the svn automatically? or is it just a place to announce important changes? |
| 23:31.23 | rwhitby | it should be doing it automatically |
| 23:31.29 | LuitvD | okay :P |
| 23:33.22 | LuitvD | that's nice |
| 23:34.54 | *** join/#openmoko CheeseHead (n=CheeseHe@139.182.35.199) |
| 23:36.49 | CIA-7 | openmoko: 03mickey * r1045 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/libmokoui/moko-panel-applet.h: openmoko-libs: revert bogus GtkAlignment -> GtkWidget rename |
| 23:38.13 | daxxar | counter |
| 23:38.14 | aloril | P0: a week, 2 days 12:21:46 (3.515 - 9.515 days); P1: 25.515 - 40.515; P2: 193.515 - 223.515 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (365) |
| 23:40.07 | daxxar | Hm. Will there *be* preorders? |
| 23:51.33 | *** join/#openmoko Eleaf (n=ethan@geek-124.ras-2.gill.wy.vcn.com) |
| 23:51.35 | Eleaf | ooo |
| 23:53.07 | Eleaf | What is the premise of this? |
| 23:53.23 | Eleaf | The website isn't too descriptive |
| 23:53.35 | Elrond | daxxar - "/msg aloril counter?" has the answer. |
| 23:53.55 | Elrond | Eleaf - What does "premise" mean to you? |
| 23:54.11 | Eleaf | what does this project entail? |
| 23:54.12 | daxxar | Elrond: It says 'unknown' - I was assuming it meant 'unknown ETA'. :-) |
| 23:54.22 | daxxar | Not 'unknown wether or not it'll occur' |
| 23:54.22 | Eleaf | How does it work. |
| 23:54.43 | Elrond | Eleaf - Hmm, longer story... I need to go to bed now, really. |
| 23:54.47 | Elrond | Good night people. :) |
| 23:55.04 | Eleaf | goodnight |
| 23:55.31 | Magon | do you have any idea how to download this ? |
| 23:55.31 | Magon | svn: PROPFIND request failed on '/repos/dates/branches/private/omoko' |
| 23:55.51 | Magon | NOTE: Fetch svn://svn.o-hand.com/repos/dates/branches/private;module=omoko;proto=http |
| 23:58.03 | stefan_schmidt | Magon proto=https |
| 23:59.03 | Magon | but i have no login... |
| 23:59.30 | stefan_schmidt | it's anonymous, but only https |
| 23:59.44 | Magon | ok thx |
| 23:59.55 | Magon | i have changed all https to http |
