| 00:00.00 | Morgaine | Seems to be a proper Touchstone production. But if ripoffs avoided all the usual lead-in crap, they'd be worth buying in preference. :-) |
| 00:06.08 | Elrond | *G* |
| 00:09.24 | Elrond | Apropos "marketting droid": Will FIC have them for the Neo in phase 2? ;o) |
| 00:13.49 | *** join/#openmoko _rob_ (n=rob@ACAE9973.ipt.aol.com) |
| 00:23.26 | CM | Leon is a good movie :) |
| 00:25.24 | *** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru) |
| 00:27.17 | bluelightning | CM: it is... I just bought the uncut version as well |
| 00:27.29 | bluelightning | can't say I thought the extra bits added much to the film |
| 00:28.15 | CM | bluelightning: I haven't seen the uncut version, but thanks for hinting it didn't add much :) |
| 00:28.21 | Morgaine | Elrond: hehe, let's hope Sean can isolate us from marketting droids ;-) |
| 00:28.34 | Morgaine | CM: yes, Leon is absolutely supreme. |
| 00:28.42 | CM | Is marketing really spelled with two t's? |
| 00:28.55 | CM | Everyone seem to do it on this channel and I can't figure out why |
| 00:28.58 | CM | .P |
| 00:29.00 | CM | :P |
| 00:30.14 | Morgaine | CM: I don't really know. I've always spelt it with two t's, just looks right. Think it looks better with just one? |
| 00:30.17 | bluelightning | CM: well I won't spoil it any further for you then :) |
| 00:30.52 | *** join/#openmoko Tv (n=tv@205.147.39.198) |
| 00:31.12 | bluelightning | for the record, marketing has one and only one T |
| 00:31.46 | bluelightning | gotta love english... I mean net goes to netting and yet market goes to marketing |
| 00:31.46 | CM | I just did a google fight, it's 491 million for one t versus 513 thousand for tt ;( |
| 00:32.01 | Morgaine | bluelightning: yeah, I had the region 1 DTS version, was fantastic. But I seem to have lost it somewhere, maybe lent it to family, so replaced with this cheap one. |
| 00:32.23 | Morgaine | CM: hehe |
| 00:32.25 | Tv | btw, anyone at SCALE5x? |
| 00:32.43 | CM | Tv: I wish, but I'll be stuck here in sweden.. |
| 00:33.23 | bluelightning | Morgaine: when you look at the movie it's very obviously a European-directed film... doesn't feel like Hollywood (which is nice for a change) |
| 00:33.35 | Morgaine | bluelightning: true |
| 00:35.15 | Morgaine | V for Vendetta made me want to see Leon again: I hadn't liked any film with Natalie Portman since Leon, but she was great in VforV, I thought. |
| 00:35.42 | bluelightning | Morgaine: yeah I agree... she did a near-perfect accent too (I thought) |
| 00:35.49 | CM | Morgaine: Ah, thanks for reminding me.. Want do see that one :) |
| 00:37.39 | *** join/#openmoko parag0n (n=parag0n@popeshoe.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 00:38.01 | Morgaine | bluelightning: the whole V thing just worked for me, really ties in to the belated 1984 here. Very original Batmanesque too. |
| 00:39.11 | Morgaine | And I didn't even notice her accent, so it was in character. |
| 00:49.04 | *** join/#openmoko apakatt (n=apakatt@89.207.216.81.static.j.siw.siwnet.net) |
| 00:58.59 | *** join/#openmoko vetetix (n=vetetix@206.26-218-195.adsl.internet.lu) |
| 01:13.37 | *** join/#openmoko jtoy_ (n=jtoy@mail.backchannelmedia.com) |
| 01:14.10 | *** join/#openmoko vetetix (n=vetetix@206.26-218-195.adsl.internet.lu) |
| 01:16.14 | *** join/#openmoko asdf_ (n=tkxue@agp.Stanford.EDU) |
| 01:16.36 | *** join/#openmoko Psi_ (n=benw@203.152.97.213) |
| 01:16.38 | asdf_ | not to so dissent; just geniuenly curious; what guarantee do all developers, investing much of their time into openmoko, has that FIC won't just fold / kill the product line? |
| 01:17.42 | SpeedEvil | Well. |
| 01:17.53 | SpeedEvil | Once the source is open, there is little they can direclty do. |
| 01:18.11 | SpeedEvil | Other than stop providing hardware. |
| 01:18.28 | stefan_schmidt | asdf_: Your wrote code for the framework not for a special phone. It will be ported on non FIC phones. |
| 01:18.28 | SpeedEvil | Hopefully, with sales, FIC have no desire to. |
| 01:18.56 | asdf_ | currently is there any other phone that comes even close to what FIC provides? |
| 01:18.57 | SpeedEvil | If, of course the phase 2 sales tank, then they may stop supporting the project. |
| 01:19.07 | SpeedEvil | There are many that are on the horizon. |
| 01:20.08 | *** join/#openmoko dilinger (n=dilinger@dsl092-076-224.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 01:20.09 | stefan_schmidt | asdf_: If you change the display res motorola A780 is pretty near. |
| 01:20.25 | SpeedEvil | Whether they will come over the horizon in the promised shape is a different question. |
| 01:20.26 | stefan_schmidt | asdf_: And of course all the branded HTC phones |
| 01:20.40 | SpeedEvil | Is the A780 actually open? |
| 01:21.01 | SpeedEvil | Or is it like the A1200, where they use the linux kernel, but you can't actually run your own stuff on it. |
| 01:21.31 | stefan_schmidt | SpeedEvil: Moto only open the source the need to. |
| 01:21.50 | stefan_schmidt | SpeedEvil: For A780 we have a 2.6 kernel almost running. |
| 01:21.59 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 01:22.06 | SpeedEvil | Talking to the hardware? |
| 01:22.10 | stefan_schmidt | SpeedEvil: With openmoko on top this will be fun. |
| 01:22.35 | SpeedEvil | I don't have a working decent connection ATM - what's the a780 compared to the a1200, or neo? |
| 01:22.36 | stefan_schmidt | SpeedEvil: Booting kernel and even GPE or OPIE |
| 01:23.20 | asdf_ | I have a motorola razr |
| 01:23.20 | stefan_schmidt | A1200 has just a nicer design. |
| 01:23.25 | asdf_ | can I do any cool developemnt on it? |
| 01:23.51 | stefan_schmidt | asdf_: Not linux. It's the old P2k OS |
| 01:24.21 | SpeedEvil | K. |
| 01:24.37 | stefan_schmidt | SpeedEvil: Some A780 also have GPS. Pretty near to Neo. But A780 is a flip phone and has only 320x240 |
| 01:24.51 | SpeedEvil | I'm not wholly convinced that I care about 640*480. |
| 01:25.11 | SpeedEvil | I mean, yes, I can put an 80*25 terminal on it, and peer at it from 25cm. |
| 01:25.30 | stefan_schmidt | heh |
| 01:25.41 | stefan_schmidt | Anyway, have to sleep now. cu |
| 01:25.42 | SpeedEvil | But, other than for nethack, why would I :) |
| 01:25.44 | SpeedEvil | Wave. |
| 01:31.35 | rwhitby | stefan_schmidt: do you know of any way to get a standard A1200 to connect to a bluetooth access point running pan? |
| 01:31.51 | rwhitby | doh! just missed him. |
| 01:58.52 | rboehme | counter |
| 01:58.52 | aloril | a day 04:01:07 (1.167 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a day (29.167 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a day (213.167 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (212) |
| 01:59.13 | xkr47 | boink |
| 02:03.09 | *** join/#openmoko JiffyJeff (n=JiffyJef@cpe-24-161-137-121.hawaii.res.rr.com) |
| 02:14.13 | *** join/#openmoko rwhitby (n=rwhitby@nslu2-linux/rwhitby) |
| 02:14.17 | *** join/#openmoko jaebird (n=jae@53-89.netblk-69-41-89.coolaccess.net) |
| 02:17.24 | *** join/#openmoko Geo[pala] (n=Geo@128.26-218-195.adsl.internet.lu) |
| 02:22.51 | *** join/#openmoko eikonos (n=eikonos@S01060020ed569ad7.gv.shawcable.net) |
| 02:24.57 | *** join/#openmoko DukeOfURL (n=chatzill@vc7-1-39.dsl.netrack.net) |
| 02:31.36 | DukeOfURL | counter |
| 02:31.37 | aloril | a day 03:28:22 (1.145 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a day (29.145 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a day (213.145 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (213) |
| 02:31.45 | *** part/#openmoko JiffyJeff (n=JiffyJef@cpe-24-161-137-121.hawaii.res.rr.com) |
| 02:39.11 | DukeOfURL | does anyone know where to obtain a login for wiki.openmoko.org? |
| 02:39.23 | SpeedEvil | I don't think it's open yet. |
| 02:44.20 | *** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru) |
| 03:01.22 | aevin | wow, soon we'll have the official wiki and svn repo! :) |
| 03:01.36 | Clint | sourcetastic |
| 03:01.39 | aevin | tick tock :) |
| 03:08.00 | Morgaine | asdf_: there are no guarantees. The future is uncertain, and that applies to all things. |
| 03:08.53 | *** join/#openmoko Tv (n=tv@adsl-75-36-71-227.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 03:09.08 | asdf_ | lol |
| 03:09.10 | DukeOfURL | does anyone know about tools? cross compiler? emulator? |
| 03:10.12 | DukeOfURL | can we build a development platform on an x86 Linux platform? |
| 03:10.35 | DukeOfURL | upload/download to the phone? |
| 03:10.38 | Morgaine | DukeOfURL: wait a day. Or you can go to OE site and get general stuff. 99% of will apply to OpenMoko. |
| 03:10.44 | bluelightning | DukeOfURL: given that OE can do that and it's apparently based on OE I would say definitely to build on x86 |
| 03:11.12 | DukeOfURL | k |
| 03:15.03 | *** join/#openmoko cprf_ (n=rzinkov@oss-staff.rutgers.edu) |
| 03:26.14 | *** join/#openmoko Zer0HiT (n=Z@cpe-24-195-252-248.nycap.res.rr.com) |
| 03:30.38 | *** join/#openmoko aloril2 (n=aloril@kaar72.airix.fi) |
| 03:36.03 | l3010o | counter |
| 03:36.03 | aloril | a day 02:23:56 (1.100 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a day (29.100 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a day (213.100 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (214) |
| 03:36.09 | l3010o | wow..1 day left |
| 03:40.11 | *** join/#openmoko Zer0HiT (n=Z@cpe-24-195-252-248.nycap.res.rr.com) |
| 03:45.20 | *** join/#openmoko jebba (n=jebba@OL80-42.fibertel.com.ar) |
| 03:48.19 | rwhitby | If anyone is in LA - nslu2-linux is exhibiting at SCALE (http://www.socallinuxexpo.org/scale5x) |
| 03:48.28 | rwhitby | (LA = Los Angeles) |
| 03:49.14 | rwhitby | Booth #62. We're holding a Birds of a Feather session right now, and we mentioned OpenMoko :-) |
| 03:50.37 | WillySilly | I want a NCALE :P |
| 04:29.22 | *** join/#openmoko rwhitby (n=rwhitby@nslu2-linux/rwhitby) |
| 04:31.08 | *** join/#openmoko TimRiker (n=timr@rikers.org) |
| 04:39.41 | *** join/#openmoko thedaniel (n=daniel@netblock-68-183-179-95.dslextreme.com) |
| 05:13.50 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=bob@p85.212.133.110.tisdip.tiscali.de) |
| 05:27.55 | *** join/#openmoko l3010o_ (n=leo@n219079066049.netvigator.com) |
| 05:32.05 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=bob@p85.212.133.110.tisdip.tiscali.de) |
| 05:32.05 | *** join/#openmoko Psi_ (n=benw@203.152.97.213) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 05:32.05 | *** join/#openmoko uffe (n=uffe@point.to) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 05:32.05 | *** join/#openmoko robtaylor (n=robtaylo@63.99.9.131) |
| 05:32.05 | *** join/#openmoko romulus_ (n=romulus@S0106000625a403af.vc.shawcable.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 05:32.06 | *** join/#openmoko Flusher (i=flusher@filer.euroserv.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 05:32.06 | *** join/#openmoko rep (n=rep@vs187078.vserver.de) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 05:32.09 | *** join/#openmoko loft306 (n=^_^@tuxhacker/pdpc.supporter.sustaining.loft306) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 05:32.09 | *** join/#openmoko skome (n=skome@li4-40.members.linode.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 05:32.09 | *** join/#openmoko BenC (n=bcollins@debian/developer/bcollins) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 05:32.10 | *** join/#openmoko Odin- (n=odin@s121-302.gardur.hi.is) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 05:32.10 | *** join/#openmoko unknown_lamer (n=clinton@c-68-49-172-183.hsd1.md.comcast.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 05:32.10 | *** join/#openmoko nh_work (n=nh@aurora.msi.umn.edu) |
| 05:32.10 | *** join/#openmoko ynezz (i=inezz@195.113.97.158) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 05:32.10 | *** join/#openmoko nbd (n=nbd@openwrt/developer/nbd) |
| 05:32.10 | *** join/#openmoko ozzloy (i=ozzloy@unaffiliated/ozzloy) |
| 05:32.11 | *** join/#openmoko keescook (n=kees@ubuntu/member/keescook) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 05:32.11 | *** join/#openmoko d0tslash (i=dotslash@217-68-170-38.dynamic.primacom.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 05:32.11 | *** join/#openmoko Kaloz (i=kaloz@openwrt/developer/Kaloz) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 05:32.11 | *** join/#openmoko mickey|sports (n=nnnnnnnm@linuxtogo.org) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 05:52.48 | *** join/#openmoko rwhitby (n=rwhitby@nslu2-linux/rwhitby) |
| 06:00.16 | aloril2 | counter |
| 06:00.16 | aloril | 23:59:43 (1.000 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (29.000 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (213.000 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (215) |
| 06:00.31 | Clint | nicely timed |
| 06:02.05 | aloril2 | if I was with PC, then it might have been exactly to second ;-) |
| 06:02.14 | aloril2 | counter |
| 06:02.14 | aloril | 23:57:45 (0.998 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.998 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.998 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (216) |
| 06:08.10 | aloril2 | counter has been called quite often yesterday |
| 06:12.40 | k-y | there should be a counter for counter |
| 06:15.59 | aloril2 | 16 times |
| 06:16.30 | aloril2 | there is, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned it yet ;-) |
| 06:17.50 | fluffs | that counter is starting to get on my nerves |
| 06:18.03 | madwoota | /ignore aloril!*@* |
| 06:20.06 | aloril2 | counter works privately too though most call it publicly |
| 06:24.47 | *** join/#openmoko dilinger (n=dilinger@146-115-126-156.c3-0.arl-ubr1.sbo-arl.ma.cable.rcn.com) |
| 06:35.06 | fluffs | the counter could output a lot less text... |
| 06:35.39 | fluffs | so it looks like i need to be up early tommorow as well |
| 06:37.13 | aloril2 | main function should be an easy way to answer newbies, that's why its so verbose |
| 06:39.56 | *** join/#openmoko netx (n=rlange@osiris.darkempire.org) |
| 06:44.58 | *** join/#openmoko rd__ (n=redragon@segfault.net) |
| 06:45.35 | *** join/#openmoko meandtheshell (n=markus@85-124-37-123.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at) |
| 06:55.04 | aloril2 | hopefully counter is correct and thus it will get shorter in a day ;-) |
| 06:56.04 | *** join/#openmoko cprf (n=rzinkov@oss-staff.rutgers.edu) |
| 07:00.13 | aloril2 | alternatively "counter" could reply privately with short message and "counter?" would be long newbie reply |
| 07:00.32 | *** join/#openmoko etahhhh (n=etah52@c-24-10-163-135.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 07:03.08 | *** join/#openmoko friedel (n=fwolff@thbh-ip-vsat-2-p254.vsat.telkom-ipnet.co.za) |
| 07:07.10 | *** join/#openmoko srikantux (n=sri@59.92.155.202) |
| 07:25.48 | *** join/#openmoko cying (n=cying@adsl-75-41-120-47.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) |
| 07:28.22 | *** join/#openmoko Eblis (n=Miranda@86.34.3.192) |
| 07:28.28 | Eblis | counter |
| 07:28.28 | aloril | 22:31:31 (0.939 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.939 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.939 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (217) |
| 07:36.31 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@9.80-202-160.nextgentel.com) |
| 07:41.27 | *** join/#openmoko Eblis (n=Miranda@86.34.3.192) |
| 08:13.58 | *** join/#openmoko buz (n=buz@80-218-148-33.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 08:14.38 | *** join/#openmoko friedel (n=fwolff@thbh-ip-vsat-2-p254.vsat.telkom-ipnet.co.za) |
| 08:15.12 | Eblis | hmm, when did the core team email change to contrib ? :) |
| 08:19.16 | rwhitby | hmm |
| 08:20.29 | rwhitby | the web server says it was modified on Friday, 26 January 2007 6:14:37 AM |
| 08:20.55 | Eblis | aww |
| 08:20.59 | Eblis | i didn't check the email in a while |
| 08:21.38 | Eblis | and the Mono/portable .net mail i sent was for coreteam@ |
| 08:21.48 | Eblis | should i have sent it at contrib@ ... ? |
| 08:22.07 | *** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru) |
| 08:22.36 | *** join/#openmoko gambler (n=orion@203-206-22-227.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 08:28.17 | Eblis | no ideea ? :) |
| 08:30.28 | *** join/#openmoko chrustinho (n=christop@p57B03F35.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 08:30.35 | rwhitby | can't hurt sending it to both. |
| 08:31.04 | Eblis | do you think i should send it now ? |
| 08:44.26 | *** join/#openmoko koen (n=koen@dominion.kabel.utwente.nl) |
| 09:01.05 | *** join/#openmoko Eludias (n=eludias@wingding.demon.nl) |
| 09:04.43 | *** join/#openmoko den-ros (n=den@ppp91-76-76-18.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) |
| 09:05.12 | *** join/#openmoko zween (n=zween@80-47-249-244.lond-th.dynamic.dial.as9105.com) |
| 09:15.18 | greentux | counter |
| 09:15.18 | aloril | 20:44:41 (0.864 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.864 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.864 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (218) |
| 09:24.02 | *** join/#openmoko tr2x (n=alvar@80-218-185-55.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 09:25.50 | *** join/#openmoko Marex (n=Marex@85.132.236.161) |
| 09:35.07 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@9.80-202-160.nextgentel.com) |
| 09:47.15 | *** join/#openmoko cprf (n=rzinkov@oss-staff.rutgers.edu) |
| 09:48.19 | *** join/#openmoko silwol (n=silwol@194.152.122.177) |
| 09:48.30 | *** join/#openmoko pH5 (n=ph5@p5485F50D.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 10:06.09 | *** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru) |
| 10:10.52 | *** join/#openmoko l4rs (n=laprican@hsiproxy.astra-net.com) |
| 10:16.17 | *** join/#openmoko pleemans (n=peter@d51A5E76A.access.telenet.be) |
| 10:16.34 | *** join/#openmoko lightyear (n=lightyea@p54875E5D.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 10:30.18 | *** join/#openmoko jacobfan (n=jacob@fw.exoweb.net) |
| 10:38.17 | *** join/#openmoko koen (n=koen@dominion.kabel.utwente.nl) |
| 10:40.24 | *** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru) |
| 10:41.56 | *** join/#openmoko toi (n=pleemans@d5152D3B4.access.telenet.be) |
| 10:43.51 | *** join/#openmoko chaoticz-blue (n=leo@81-208-31-213.ip.fastwebnet.it) |
| 10:45.55 | *** join/#openmoko _rob_ (n=rob@ACB05481.ipt.aol.com) |
| 10:55.37 | *** join/#openmoko guerby (n=guerby@gut75-4-82-235-162-148.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 10:59.52 | *** join/#openmoko aloril2 (n=aloril@kaar72.airix.fi) |
| 11:04.13 | CoreDump|home | countdown |
| 11:04.21 | *** join/#openmoko chaoticz-blue (n=leo@213-140-11-133.fastres.net) |
| 11:04.30 | dottedmag | .counter |
| 11:04.35 | dottedmag | counter |
| 11:04.35 | aloril | 18:55:24 (0.788 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.788 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.788 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (219) |
| 11:04.45 | *** join/#openmoko quinton (n=quinton@84-45-151-51.no-dns-yet.enta.net) |
| 11:04.45 | CoreDump|home | dottedmag, thx ;) |
| 11:04.51 | dottedmag | :) |
| 11:06.22 | *** join/#openmoko guerby (n=guerby@gut75-4-82-235-162-148.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 11:07.50 | *** join/#openmoko cprf (n=rzinkov@oss-staff.rutgers.edu) |
| 11:10.09 | *** join/#openmoko aloril2 (n=aloril@kaar72.airix.fi) |
| 11:10.50 | *** join/#openmoko LuitvD (n=LuitvD@beigetower/luitvd) |
| 11:12.17 | *** join/#openmoko Marex-Yggdrasil (n=Marex@85.132.236.161) |
| 11:17.15 | *** join/#openmoko libervisco (n=libervis@tuxhacker/libervis) |
| 11:22.25 | *** join/#openmoko koljoman (n=nenni@rb4d109.net.upc.cz) |
| 11:22.38 | koljoman | counter |
| 11:22.39 | aloril | 18:37:20 (0.776 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.776 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.776 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (220) |
| 11:24.16 | Psi_ | is that counter until its the 11th, or until the actual time when the source will be out? |
| 11:24.38 | Psi_ | because it could really be up to a day out otherwise |
| 11:25.16 | *** join/#openmoko init_alx (i=alx@gotnull.net) |
| 11:30.21 | *** join/#openmoko ml8128 (n=ml8128@75.161.97-84.rev.gaoland.net) |
| 11:32.44 | aloril2 | counter is up to 23:59:59.999... CST |
| 11:34.03 | *** join/#openmoko Lazerdye (n=thaddock@82-41-154-116.cable.ubr01.linl.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 11:35.08 | *** join/#openmoko trithemius (n=paul@wsip-70-167-244-195.dc.dc.cox.net) |
| 11:35.44 | *** join/#openmoko guerby (n=guerby@gut75-4-82-235-162-148.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 11:36.31 | *** join/#openmoko wbx (n=wbx@gprs-pool-1-016.eplus-online.de) |
| 11:36.31 | *** join/#openmoko zipola (n=zipola@cable-vrk-feb6dd00-89.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 11:37.35 | Elrond | counter |
| 11:37.36 | aloril | 18:22:24 (0.766 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.766 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.766 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (221) |
| 11:41.15 | *** join/#openmoko Rac0r (n=Rac0r@p5081DEE1.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 11:49.00 | *** join/#openmoko ml8128 (n=ml8128@75.161.97-84.rev.gaoland.net) |
| 11:51.18 | *** join/#openmoko apakatt (n=apakatt@89.207.216.81.static.j.siw.siwnet.net) |
| 12:06.41 | *** join/#openmoko Eludias (n=eludias@wingding.demon.nl) |
| 12:06.57 | *** join/#openmoko borg_ (n=olaf@80.149.17.21) |
| 12:15.02 | *** join/#openmoko Marex (n=Marex@85.132.236.161) |
| 12:15.13 | *** join/#openmoko dw_swe (n=dw@h-215-34.A162.cust.bahnhof.se) |
| 12:16.24 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (i=foobar@dslb-084-057-150-024.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 12:16.24 | dw_swe | counter |
| 12:16.25 | aloril | 17:44:04 (0.739 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.739 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.739 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (222) |
| 12:17.59 | hrw | morning |
| 12:18.04 | Stephmw[Zzzzz] | howdy |
| 12:18.05 | hrw | still no open wiki? |
| 12:18.35 | *** join/#openmoko greentux (n=lemke@195.227.105.180) |
| 12:18.35 | Stephmw | still at least 0.5day for global 11-ness |
| 12:18.59 | *** join/#openmoko Marex (n=Marex@85.132.236.161) |
| 12:19.02 | *** join/#openmoko TRIsoft (i=Mac@p57A2A9A4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 12:19.17 | *** join/#openmoko parag0n (n=parag0n@popeshoe.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 12:19.20 | koen | counter |
| 12:19.20 | aloril | 17:40:39 (0.737 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.737 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.737 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (223) |
| 12:21.24 | Morgaine | Excited is we! |
| 12:21.27 | Morgaine | :P |
| 12:21.45 | morricone | http://projects.openmoko.org/ is already online |
| 12:22.04 | Morgaine | Was a week ago, but only had 4 projects. |
| 12:22.10 | koen | oh dear |
| 12:22.21 | koen | the java people are even more clueless than I thought |
| 12:22.38 | koen | "inux-openmoko" is their project name |
| 12:22.45 | koen | linux-openmoko* |
| 12:23.07 | Morgaine | Hehe. Comes with the territory. Something to do with peer groups. |
| 12:25.48 | Morgaine | You have to remember that they have this "Pure Java" religion which makes them completely oblivious to reality, so not surprised at the name. They might have called the project "Computing" too. ;-) |
| 12:26.22 | Morgaine | The rest of the world doesn't exist ;-) |
| 12:26.36 | koen | right |
| 12:26.47 | koen | they also seem to be very good at not doing any usefull work |
| 12:26.56 | Stephmw | that name needs moderation |
| 12:27.00 | Morgaine | Yeah |
| 12:27.03 | Stephmw | java-openmoko would be fine |
| 12:27.12 | Morgaine | Aye |
| 12:27.20 | koen | java people == committee |
| 12:27.28 | Stephmw | ... and I'm as much of a java-nut as it comes... but that's stupid |
| 12:27.56 | Stephmw | koen: Sun gives the illusion with the JCP that committees actually work |
| 12:28.04 | Stephmw | koen: which is a whole load of bollocks |
| 12:28.15 | koen | right |
| 12:28.30 | Stephmw | JCP is rule by closed-door politics |
| 12:28.38 | rwhitby | anyway, the project should be named gnu-linux-openmoko ... (rwhitby ducks) |
| 12:29.05 | Stephmw | koen: and I so wish I was allowed to help on that one :( |
| 12:29.12 | Stephmw | rwhitby: hahaha |
| 12:29.16 | Morgaine | lol |
| 12:30.05 | parag0n | gnu-linux-openmoko-maybe-i-should-add-java-here-somewhere-too |
| 12:32.06 | *** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru) |
| 12:32.10 | Morgaine | It's a wierd community. "Interoperability" with other languages seems to mean rewriting them in Java, rather than interfacing with them. Very odd. |
| 12:32.27 | *** join/#openmoko aloril2 (n=aloril@kaar72.airix.fi) |
| 12:32.51 | Stephmw | Morgaine: that's java's fault really |
| 12:33.05 | Stephmw | Morgaine: sharing resources across the java/native boundary is a hassle |
| 12:33.17 | Stephmw | Morgaine: cross-language locks are a nightmare |
| 12:33.35 | Stephmw | Morgaine: the GCJ guys have the right idea there... don't use JNI |
| 12:33.51 | Stephmw | Morgaine: their CNI is much, much better |
| 12:33.57 | Morgaine | It's only a hassle because they don't allow tidy interfaces to be defined. Engineering-wise, it would be trvial. It's just a VM after all. |
| 12:34.16 | Stephmw | right, see CNI |
| 12:35.55 | Stephmw | *ahem* |
| 12:36.03 | Stephmw | anyway... are we there yet? |
| 12:36.35 | Morgaine | I really loved the language during its early days. I had to leave the community though, because it turned into a religion instead of an engineering tool. My language agnosticism was treated as heresy. :-) |
| 12:36.48 | Elrond | Hmmm, What's the foobar project? ;) |
| 12:37.56 | Stephmw | Morgaine: what are you into these days? other than moko? |
| 12:40.23 | Morgaine | Anything and everything, from parallelism to languages to graphics. Currently just started playing with OpenGL in Lua. Or maybe the right answer is: "nothing". :-) Perhaps I'm looking for a nice project. |
| 12:40.23 | aloril2 | Elrond: if you mean channel, I have been testing counter there ;-) |
| 12:40.23 | Stephmw | Elrond: it's a test of GForge |
| 12:40.24 | Stephmw | Elrond: note the project admins |
| 12:40.44 | koen | http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-devel/2007-February/000298.html |
| 12:41.47 | Morgaine | Stephmw: I'll probably start OM work with the GPS side though. That could be dead handy, and OSM needs help and map data from us anyway. |
| 12:42.23 | koen | an easy to use editor for OSM would be neat |
| 12:43.03 | Morgaine | I've not played with their standard one, is it bad? |
| 12:43.07 | alphaone | counter |
| 12:43.08 | aloril | 17:16:52 (0.720 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.720 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.720 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (225) |
| 12:43.21 | Stephmw | it would be very nice to start a parallel IA pool project to help the other projects through making usable user interfaces |
| 12:43.26 | koen | Morgaine: stefan_schmidt found it cumbersome |
| 12:43.35 | Morgaine | koen: k |
| 12:43.57 | koen | Stephmw: and having a clear HIG with examples to fall back to |
| 12:43.58 | Stephmw | IA=>Information Architects |
| 12:44.07 | Elrond | Morgaine - It's a bit tricky to get used to. And it's .... java. |
| 12:44.18 | Morgaine | Elrond: hehe |
| 12:44.28 | Stephmw | koen: that could be more difficult, unless FIC lends us the start of one |
| 12:44.35 | Elrond | Morgaine - It surprisingly fast though. |
| 12:44.52 | aloril2 | btw, for registered nicks this works too: /msg aloril counter |
| 12:45.09 | Stephmw | Elrond: what's the underlying platform? Netbeans, Eclipse... JEdit? |
| 12:45.23 | koen | Stephmw: I'd hate to see to get openmoko KDE-ized |
| 12:45.32 | Stephmw | koen: agreed! |
| 12:45.37 | koen | Stephmw: a zillion config options in weird places without sane defaults |
| 12:45.47 | Elrond | Stephmw - You mean, where it was developed? No idea. I'm an ignorant on java and just download the .jar and run it. ;) |
| 12:45.57 | koen | and on the other hand I'd hate it to be gnome-ified |
| 12:46.07 | Stephmw | Elrond: can you do a screenie? |
| 12:46.21 | Elrond | Stephmw - Yeah. |
| 12:46.31 | *** join/#openmoko wbx_ (n=wbx@gprs-pool-1-027.eplus-online.de) |
| 12:46.35 | Elrond | Stephmw - Give me a few secs. |
| 12:46.53 | Morgaine | Java apps tend to be extremely bloaty without need. Not sure why they bring in so many dependencies, maybe some linker problem. |
| 12:47.40 | Stephmw | Morgaine: I think the problem is always the Keyboard-Chair interface |
| 12:47.42 | Elrond | Stephmw - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Image:Josm-screenshot.png |
| 12:47.55 | Elrond | (not mine, just found it quickly) |
| 12:48.14 | Stephmw | Elrond: custom jobbie |
| 12:48.59 | Stephmw | Morgaine: it's easily doable to make small, tight Java software, but most java devs just don't seem to bother |
| 12:49.16 | Stephmw | Morgaine: Sun's to blame, again |
| 12:49.32 | Morgaine | Very bad for embedded |
| 12:50.07 | Stephmw | I write java core APIs for embedded :) |
| 12:50.12 | Stephmw | mixed C/Java |
| 12:50.38 | Stephmw | So, with experience, I can say it's doable. But there needs to be a will to do so. |
| 12:50.42 | Elrond | 885842 Jan 13 03:30 josm-snapshot-194.jar |
| 12:50.56 | Elrond | ... but it needs java 1.5 (only works on sun java.) :-| |
| 12:51.15 | Morgaine | "<Stephmw>: mixed C/Java" --- heretic!!! ;-) |
| 12:51.36 | Elrond | s/!!!/11eleven/ ? ;o) |
| 12:52.44 | Elrond | Morgaine - There's also a qt editor in the workings, but it has its own issues. (and since it uses antiaaliasing, etc. it's even slower than the java one.) |
| 12:53.16 | koen | they should use jambi |
| 12:53.18 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@9.80-202-160.nextgentel.com) |
| 12:53.31 | koen | and a recent qt4 |
| 12:53.37 | Elrond | What's jambi? |
| 12:53.51 | koen | a java interface to qt4 iirc |
| 12:54.01 | Elrond | Ahh. |
| 12:54.19 | Elrond | Well, is qt4 available for windows? |
| 12:54.55 | Morgaine | Why are editors being written in such low level languages? Just makes no sense to me. 95% should be in a higher level scripted language, and after profiling, the hot 5% should be replaced by C or C++. It's the only sane engineering way. |
| 12:55.57 | Elrond | Morgaine - There is a python one. But it feels unmainainted and crappy TO ME. YMMV. |
| 12:55.59 | Stephmw | like FF? |
| 12:56.06 | Stephmw | FF is a monster |
| 12:56.48 | Morgaine | Elrond: sure, but that's just a reflection on that particular project. |
| 12:57.02 | LittleIdiot | well... if you compare vim to eclipse, you see the difference. vim works perfectly for me |
| 12:57.28 | LittleIdiot | ...and eclipse needs minutes to load and then eats all the ram... |
| 12:57.43 | Elrond | tihi. |
| 12:58.00 | Ycros | eclipse is awesome though, mainly for java |
| 12:58.02 | LittleIdiot | thats why they should not be written in high level languages ;) |
| 12:58.08 | Ycros | if you're programming something else, then meh |
| 12:58.36 | Elrond | LittleIdiot - The idea is to mix and match. Our labatory control system is a C++ backend controling the real hardware. It interfaces by IPC with a python frontend. |
| 12:58.53 | *** join/#openmoko pierrox (n=pierrot@ns1.1000wallpapers.com) |
| 12:59.18 | *** join/#openmoko Marex-Yggdrasil (n=Marex@85.132.236.161) |
| 12:59.41 | Morgaine | LittleIdiot: wrong. The problem stems in trying to write all parts of an app in just one language. If you combine a high level one and a low level one, you get the speed without the bloat. |
| 13:00.04 | Elrond | Right. |
| 13:00.44 | LittleIdiot | but yet i don't see any advantage in abadoning vim ;) |
| 13:00.55 | Elrond | high level scripted languages allow nice things, like user scripts. Without even thinking. (out lab system is based on this. Any experiment is pure python. _any_) |
| 13:02.03 | Morgaine | <PROTECTED> |
| 13:02.03 | Morgaine | 32 |
| 13:02.09 | Morgaine | Typical :-) |
| 13:02.10 | Stephmw | LittleIdiot: refactoring is Eclipse's forte. If you're happy doing such things with vim+grep+find+perl, it's all good |
| 13:02.43 | Morgaine | Eclipse brings in 32 dependencies ... and that doesn't include all the ones I already have installed here :-) |
| 13:03.01 | Morgaine | Anyone surprised? ;-) |
| 13:03.21 | Kero | only 32? :P |
| 13:03.31 | Elrond | *g* |
| 13:03.44 | Elrond | Morgaine - josm "only" needs the base sun-java-1.5 |
| 13:04.02 | Morgaine | Hehe. It's probably hundreds in total, but I have many Java things running already so lots of deps fulfilled on this box. |
| 13:06.00 | LittleIdiot | hmm, i'll see if eclipse can do refactoring for the asm code i wrote for an atmega chip ;) |
| 13:06.22 | Kero | "Rename assembler instruction" ? |
| 13:07.01 | CoreDump|home | trisoft hangs out in here, too? interesting =) |
| 13:07.12 | Kero | "Use other register" ? |
| 13:07.45 | Morgaine | Well we have almost a whole day to go, so here's food for language wars: |
| 13:07.53 | Morgaine | <PROTECTED> |
| 13:07.53 | Morgaine | <PROTECTED> |
| 13:07.53 | Morgaine | <PROTECTED> |
| 13:07.53 | Morgaine | <PROTECTED> |
| 13:07.54 | Morgaine | <PROTECTED> |
| 13:07.54 | Morgaine | <PROTECTED> |
| 13:07.55 | Morgaine | <PROTECTED> |
| 13:07.57 | Morgaine | <PROTECTED> |
| 13:07.59 | Morgaine | <PROTECTED> |
| 13:08.01 | Morgaine | :P |
| 13:08.05 | rd_ | refactoring asm code? interesting -/- |
| 13:08.18 | rd_ | lua & python r0x :D |
| 13:08.40 | Kero | only a factor 100 for n=180? reasonable code :) |
| 13:09.06 | Morgaine | All languages rock, and all languages suck. They're just tools. You have to know when they're good, and not use them where they're less good. ;-) |
| 13:09.19 | Kero | so which Ruby engine is that :P |
| 13:09.22 | Kero | Morgaine: exactly |
| 13:10.19 | Morgaine | Kero: it doesn't matter which. Nobody remotely sane reads anything into a benchmark, even less into a benchmark without source. It's only fun. ;-) |
| 13:10.38 | Ycros | woo, go lua. |
| 13:10.56 | Ycros | but that's a very specific problem domain |
| 13:11.07 | rd_ | Ycros, yep |
| 13:11.22 | Kero | I know. I'm surprised ocaml doesn't do better. must be something 'wrong' with that code. |
| 13:12.06 | Ycros | Kero: I am surprised as well actually |
| 13:12.25 | Morgaine | Ruby is one of the highest level languages around. It's a defensible argument that that coding 95% of an app in it, with the profiled 5% hot spots rewritten in C, will give you the best quality app. |
| 13:13.16 | Kero | Morgaine: if only there were a better option than C :) |
| 13:13.25 | Ycros | D? |
| 13:13.34 | benJIman | It will also give you an unmaintainable app thanks to duck typing |
| 13:13.42 | rd_ | Morgaine, http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/ have benchmarks for most of languages with source codes |
| 13:13.46 | Elrond | Morgaine - I never playd with ruby, is it worth looking at it? |
| 13:13.48 | Morgaine | Ocaml has a supremely good compiler. I'm not surprised it wins so many speed contests, and speed of design/coding contests too because it's so high level. |
| 13:13.55 | benJIman | Which also means the compiler can't verify the code as much, which arguably means lower quality |
| 13:14.07 | benJIman | Elrond: it's nearly as bad as python. |
| 13:14.08 | Kero | benJIman: have you ever actually used Ruby such that duck typing hurt you? |
| 13:14.26 | Ycros | Morgaine: I've been meaning to properly try out O'Caml |
| 13:14.35 | benJIman | No, but it means it's unsuitable for large applications |
| 13:14.46 | Kero | benJIman: and did you then ask ruby coders what they do to prevent it? |
| 13:15.02 | rd_ | well, to me, python is balance of the high level language, convenient & fast enough :) |
| 13:15.06 | Kero | benJIman: why do you jump to that conclusion, if you never experienced the conclusion? |
| 13:15.12 | benJIman | They always fall into the trap of thinking that unit tests and documentation are a replacement |
| 13:15.19 | Ycros | I love python, it's my favorite all-round programming language |
| 13:15.25 | *** join/#openmoko `k (i=glitch@unaffiliated/k/x-000001) |
| 13:15.31 | Kero | benJIman: I just had a four-day course on testing. It's not a trap :) |
| 13:15.35 | benJIman | I have tried to make changes to large (50,000 line) python apps, it's not pretty |
| 13:15.50 | benJIman | Kero: they are both excellent things, but not a replacement for maintainable code |
| 13:16.15 | Ycros | code is as maintainable as you make it, heh |
| 13:16.25 | benJIman | Ycros: python and ruby can't be made maintanable |
| 13:16.26 | Kero | tests make your code more maintanable, since they point out where things go wrong. |
| 13:16.29 | rd_ | BenC, well, it always depends on the people who design & code the app :) |
| 13:16.42 | Ycros | benJIman: yes they can |
| 13:16.53 | benJIman | But you can't see how to make changes when you have things passed from method to method with no way of knowing what they are without understanding the entire programme. |
| 13:17.04 | benJIman | You can't look at a single method and see how it can be changed |
| 13:17.12 | Morgaine | Well C is barely higher level than assembler, in fact it is merely structured assembly code, so it's not surprising that it's fast. But coding a whole app in it is an extremely bad idea, unless it's a very trivial one. |
| 13:17.16 | Kero | benJIman: you need to know the abstractions, not the entire program |
| 13:17.29 | Kero | benJIman: you can handle 7 +/- 2 conceps in your brain |
| 13:17.33 | rd_ | Morgaine, woa :) |
| 13:17.41 | Kero | any program exceeds that with orders of magnitude |
| 13:17.46 | benJIman | Kero: you have a method that takes an argument, passes it onto another method, which passes it onto another method, and so on, nowhere without reading the entire thing do you know what that actually is |
| 13:17.54 | benJIman | you don't know what operations can be performed upon it |
| 13:18.00 | benJIman | you don't know what making a change will break |
| 13:18.05 | benJIman | the compiler can't verify that it won't |
| 13:18.15 | Kero | if you need the call-stack in your brain, the code is unmaintainable |
| 13:18.35 | benJIman | indeed, which python and ruby encourage |
| 13:18.36 | Kero | refactor it. |
| 13:18.48 | benJIman | Strongly typed languages are self documenting, and can be verified further by the compiler |
| 13:18.57 | Kero | int month = 145 |
| 13:19.27 | Kero | month /= 3 |
| 13:19.38 | rd_ | benJIman, again, it's depends on what you're going to do |
| 13:19.52 | benJIman | We want to be moving towards languages that are clearer and can be verified more, not languages like python and ruby which are an order of magnitude worse than VB6 |
| 13:19.56 | *** join/#openmoko mickeyl (n=mickeyl@linuxtogo.org) |
| 13:20.07 | benJIman | python is like VB where the programmer has used Variant for everything |
| 13:20.18 | Kero | and now I've had enough of the flaming, benji |
| 13:20.29 | Morgaine | I second Kero in that. The so-called Software Crisis is just a problem in complexity management ... basically a mismatch between our mental capabilities and the complexity of programs. It can't be overcome while people continue to code as they currently do. |
| 13:21.27 | *** join/#openmoko `k (i=glitch@lambda.cultofray.net) |
| 13:21.39 | Elrond | I give benJIman one thing: When rewriting large apps, static typing is helpful. Note my word choosing "helpful". |
| 13:21.56 | benJIman | It's about damage limitation |
| 13:22.11 | rd_ | again, it's about how you design & code it :p |
| 13:22.23 | Elrond | rd_ - Right. |
| 13:22.34 | rwhitby | hey mickeyl, it's almost 12 Feb 2007 here ... |
| 13:22.34 | Ycros | I agree with rd_ |
| 13:22.45 | Morgaine | Hehehe |
| 13:22.53 | Ycros | it's the 12th here |
| 13:23.16 | rwhitby | Ycros: east coast? |
| 13:23.24 | Morgaine | Leave poor Mickey alone, he hasn't had any sleep for a week I bet ;-) |
| 13:23.26 | Elrond | Sun, 11 Feb 2007 14:26:52 +0100 |
| 13:23.29 | Kero | tests can also help you design :) hence test DRIVEN design |
| 13:24.10 | Elrond | Kero - Oh yeah. it helped my python refactoring things :) |
| 13:24.22 | Stephmw | rwhitby: no fair flying out to Fiji to get the earliest 11 Feb :) |
| 13:24.35 | rwhitby | Sun Feb 11 23:54:08 CST 2007 |
| 13:24.35 | rwhitby | , here in Adelaide, Australia. |
| 13:24.52 | rwhitby | so I expect source code in the next five minutes :-) |
| 13:25.09 | Elrond | rwhitby - ;)) |
| 13:25.39 | rd_ | rwhitby, :D |
| 13:25.59 | hrw | rwhitby: HST is the last one? |
| 13:26.08 | rwhitby | I believe so. |
| 13:26.08 | Morgaine | benJIman: no language is self-documenting. A program at most expresses the static properties of a computing system, but all the complexities are in the dynamics, and no language (except possibly an FSM table in some cases) documents system dynamics. |
| 13:26.31 | rwhitby | Go any further west, and you hit Chatham Islands, which are GMT+13:45 at the moment. |
| 13:26.56 | *** join/#openmoko jeddy3 (n=data@h-193-67.A148.cust.bahnhof.se) |
| 13:27.20 | rwhitby | (Adelaide is GMT+10:30 at the moment) |
| 13:27.32 | *** join/#openmoko guerby (n=guerby@gut75-4-82-235-162-148.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 13:35.16 | l3010o | counter |
| 13:35.16 | aloril | 16:24:43 (0.684 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.684 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.684 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (226) |
| 13:36.36 | *** join/#openmoko NamNT (n=namnt@cm96.delta197.maxonline.com.sg) |
| 13:37.51 | hrw | s/it/own |
| 13:37.59 | rwhitby | ... and then goes to bed dreaming of a parcel arriving tomorrow ... |
| 13:38.23 | rwhitby | oh, make that *today* (the 12th) |
| 13:39.04 | Morgaine | It's lunchtime here, and so through the Adamsian dilation effect, it's the 13th here already. |
| 13:40.32 | hrw | rwhitby: 12th Feb is a day when they will ship it... |
| 13:41.06 | rwhitby | hrw: yeah, I know. But I can still dream, can't iI? |
| 13:41.30 | hrw | sure |
| 13:42.00 | rwhitby | ooh yeah, I forgot about that part of the dream ... |
| 13:44.02 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (i=foobar@dslb-088-064-125-235.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 13:44.23 | Elrond | Which versions do exist? |
| 13:44.42 | hrw | white/orange and black/grey |
| 13:44.51 | hrw | second color is sides |
| 13:45.16 | Elrond | Ahh |
| 13:45.28 | rwhitby | white is for northern hemisphere, and black is for southern. |
| 13:45.30 | Elrond | I hope you guys post pics as soon, as they arrive. ;) |
| 13:45.59 | hrw | rwhitby: argh |
| 13:46.13 | CoreDump|home | you betcha |
| 13:46.31 | CoreDump|home | hrw, yo |
| 13:46.45 | *** join/#openmoko _rob_ (n=rob@ACB3AC18.ipt.aol.com) |
| 13:48.36 | hrw | CoreDump|home: long time no see |
| 13:48.44 | hrw | CoreDump|home: welcome |
| 13:48.48 | CoreDump|home | indeed |
| 13:48.54 | CoreDump|home | and thanks =) |
| 13:49.30 | CoreDump|home | I'm looking at the awful task to setup OE from scratch again *cry* |
| 13:49.39 | hrw | CoreDump|home: did you read last oz-devel mails? |
| 13:49.54 | CoreDump|home | topic? |
| 13:50.23 | *** join/#openmoko Marex (n=Marex@85.132.236.161) |
| 13:50.26 | hrw | 3.5.5 - call for help |
| 13:50.57 | CoreDump|home | I've seen it. But at the moment I really can't help :\ |
| 13:51.58 | hrw | CoreDump|home: please send a mail in thread about. this will give as a sign too |
| 13:51.58 | CoreDump|home | will do. I'm sorry about that, really. |
| 13:52.32 | hrw | CoreDump|home: life |
| 13:53.06 | CoreDump|home | indeed. And as we all know, life can be a bitch. It's been a total w**re to me lately, so to speak. |
| 13:53.56 | CoreDump|home | anyway, I _so_ can't wait for the neo to arrive =D |
| 14:03.41 | Morgaine | CoreDump|home: it only gets worse with time. ;-) Use the same solution that works for most of tech ... decouple from bad stuff. ;-) |
| 14:04.06 | CoreDump|home | Morgaine, if it were that easy =) |
| 14:04.38 | *** join/#openmoko loufoque (n=lofoque@smj33-1-82-233-64-48.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 14:04.42 | Morgaine | CoreDump|home: nothing's easy, I tend to be happy when it's merely possible ;-) |
| 14:05.05 | CoreDump|home | hehe |
| 14:05.22 | Elrond | hihi |
| 14:05.39 | Morgaine | And the "impossible" just makes it more of a challange. :-) |
| 14:06.12 | loufoque | hoho |
| 14:07.13 | Morgaine | Is there a prize for the first non-core person to get their Neo? |
| 14:07.38 | CoreDump|home | theres a video of sean on youtube. And he's got my phone 8) |
| 14:07.52 | koen | Morgaine: yes, a neo :) |
| 14:08.13 | Morgaine | That was just the plastic case that he carries his sandwiches in. ;-) |
| 14:08.19 | CoreDump|home | doh |
| 14:08.34 | CoreDump|home | It looks almost large enough for that hehe *ducks* |
| 14:08.49 | Morgaine | Who was the interviewer in that video btw? Looked familiar. |
| 14:09.17 | *** join/#openmoko _morricone (i=foobar@dslb-084-057-179-251.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 14:09.43 | koen | Morgaine: RMS after a haircut? |
| 14:10.39 | Morgaine | Wrong build. Reminded me more of the actor in Crossworlds |
| 14:11.19 | Morgaine | Rutger Hauer |
| 14:11.33 | Morgaine | http://imdb.com/name/nm0000442/ |
| 14:12.10 | hrw | CoreDump|home: so soon we will get some polishing for neo? |
| 14:12.20 | CoreDump|home | yep |
| 14:12.47 | hrw | Core 'I will polish every system' Dump |
| 14:13.15 | hrw | I like Polish |
| 14:13.24 | CoreDump|home | hehe |
| 14:13.40 | CoreDump|home | that pun was soo not intended ;) |
| 14:13.58 | mickeyl | you know that dumb joke with the language? |
| 14:14.12 | mickeyl | no? |
| 14:14.14 | mickeyl | good here it is |
| 14:14.16 | mickeyl | Polishman and Englishman meet |
| 14:14.17 | CoreDump|home | nope |
| 14:14.22 | mickeyl | Polishman: I need to polish my english |
| 14:14.29 | mickeyl | Englishman: No, I think your english is polish enough |
| 14:14.34 | mickeyl | :D |
| 14:14.34 | CoreDump|home | lol |
| 14:14.36 | Morgaine | LOL |
| 14:14.40 | CoreDump|home | good one =) |
| 14:14.46 | hrw | yes |
| 14:15.11 | hrw | the question is.. 'Englishman: No, I think your english is polish enoug' or 'Englishman: No, I think your english is Polish enoug' ;D |
| 14:15.32 | mickeyl | right |
| 14:15.34 | CoreDump|home | ummm |
| 14:15.36 | mickeyl | need to be capitalized |
| 14:15.42 | CoreDump|home | both uppercase or not? |
| 14:16.04 | Morgaine | LOL, it wasa perfectly good joke until hrw got hold of it ;-) |
| 14:16.12 | mickeyl | hehe |
| 14:16.47 | *** join/#openmoko boulix (n=email@log77-2-82-242-11-232.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 14:16.51 | *** part/#openmoko boulix (n=email@log77-2-82-242-11-232.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 14:17.05 | *** join/#openmoko boulix (n=email@log77-2-82-242-11-232.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 14:17.08 | *** part/#openmoko boulix (n=email@log77-2-82-242-11-232.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 14:17.14 | *** join/#openmoko boulix (n=email@log77-2-82-242-11-232.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 14:18.37 | Morgaine | counter |
| 14:18.37 | aloril | 15:41:22 (0.654 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.654 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.654 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (227) |
| 14:20.20 | Morgaine | Oh dear, I'll have to stay up to 6am for Big OM to chime ;-) |
| 14:21.59 | Morgaine | Actually, that's not a bad idea ... somebody put a Big Ben chime on the OM site at zero hour. ;-) |
| 14:23.00 | hrw | Morgaine: I know that joke for too long ;) |
| 14:23.01 | Elrond | :-) |
| 14:23.13 | Morgaine | hrw: hehe |
| 14:28.49 | *** join/#openmoko guerby (n=guerby@gut75-4-82-235-162-148.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 14:31.18 | *** join/#openmoko Stephmw (n=steph@212.69.51.139) |
| 14:34.25 | *** join/#openmoko DukeOfURL (n=chatzill@vc7-1-39.dsl.netrack.net) |
| 14:38.08 | *** join/#openmoko xerom (n=jack@bl4-144-218.dsl.telepac.pt) |
| 14:41.29 | Morgaine | "In 1975, on the eve of May Day, Czechoslovakian secret police dressed in chemical warfare suits sealed off the zoo in the small Czech town of Dv\u016fr Králové nad Labem and orchestrated the slaying of the zoo's entire population of forty-nine giraffes" |
| 14:41.39 | Morgaine | Fact is much, much stranger than fiction/ |
| 14:41.59 | Morgaine | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giraffe_%28novel%29 |
| 14:45.57 | *** join/#openmoko Marex-Yggdrasil (n=Marex@85.132.236.161) |
| 14:48.55 | Stephmw | giraffe allergy? |
| 14:55.51 | *** join/#openmoko ajturner (n=ajturner@d14-69-64-67.try.wideopenwest.com) |
| 14:59.46 | Morgaine | Hehe |
| 15:01.43 | Morgaine | Probably turf wars, someone high up in the police force or government thought someone needed a lesson. |
| 15:02.10 | Morgaine | That's humans for you. |
| 15:03.37 | Morgaine | The sooner we merge with our machines and leave humanity behind, the better. |
| 15:03.52 | CoreDump|afk | agreed |
| 15:04.23 | Morgaine | Responding while AFK ... ESP? |
| 15:04.46 | CoreDump|afk | kinda =) |
| 15:04.49 | Morgaine | Hehe |
| 15:06.06 | *** join/#openmoko lupp0l0 (n=miche@81-174-6-236.f5.ngi.it) |
| 15:07.04 | Morgaine | I guess we can start with a Beowulf cluster belt of Neos .... ;-) |
| 15:07.27 | CoreDump|afk | not really, since nobody actually has one heh |
| 15:07.31 | SpeedEvil | It's a pity the display doesn't go to the edge. |
| 15:07.38 | SpeedEvil | Otherwise you could tile them. |
| 15:07.46 | Morgaine | Hehe, nice idea. |
| 15:07.48 | Stephmw | you could always strip the casing |
| 15:08.12 | Morgaine | Hmmm ... worth adding to v2 spec? Reduced frame thickness? |
| 15:08.46 | mjr | I wouldn't :] |
| 15:09.04 | Stephmw | and another thing... I'd like the display glass to be seamless with the casing |
| 15:09.08 | Morgaine | Doubt they could be tiled in both directions anyway, and a single strip won't help. |
| 15:09.55 | Morgaine | Stephmw: you mean no raised frame lip? Reason? |
| 15:10.03 | Stephmw | on the greenphone, p910, etc, the bevel with the screen makes a major dust trap |
| 15:10.09 | Morgaine | Aha |
| 15:10.21 | mjr | why don't we add all-lcd exterior to the spec while we're at it |
| 15:10.25 | SpeedEvil | I want the display glass to be all over the face. |
| 15:10.26 | CoreDump|afk | greenphone...yuck |
| 15:10.32 | mjr | then we can theme the casing |
| 15:10.32 | *** join/#openmoko srikantux (n=sri@59.92.168.98) |
| 15:10.36 | Stephmw | CoreDump|afk: now, now |
| 15:10.42 | SpeedEvil | And completely flat, with a SAW touchscreen that goes all over this face. |
| 15:10.50 | Clint | oh my |
| 15:11.22 | CoreDump|afk | sounds like the iphone? SCNR |
| 15:11.23 | Stephmw | mjr: Nokia did something kinda like that with their led-loaded, removable casings a few years back |
| 15:11.52 | Stephmw | mjr: from the lack of more such devices, you can guess how it did |
| 15:12.17 | Morgaine | It's doable to have a full-LCD front with minimal frame, would certainly stand out from other devices. Means losing even our two buttons though. |
| 15:12.39 | Stephmw | mjr: hmmm, what _could_ be done, is an e-ink inner shell, covered with a clear protective layer |
| 15:12.55 | Morgaine | Personally I think 2 buttons makes no sense. Either a full row, or none, I'd prefer. |
| 15:12.59 | Stephmw | mjr: themeable, and low power |
| 15:13.55 | noidd | mornin |
| 15:14.00 | Stephmw | hiya noidd |
| 15:14.01 | Morgaine | Hiya noidd |
| 15:14.05 | noidd | Only here for a few mins but .... |
| 15:14.06 | noidd | counter |
| 15:14.06 | aloril | 14:45:53 (0.615 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.615 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.615 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (228) |
| 15:14.13 | noidd | 14 more hours!!! |
| 15:14.30 | Morgaine | Too long, we're just figuring out how to overclock the counter. |
| 15:14.47 | sannes | Morgaine: use drugs, I'm sure it helps :P |
| 15:14.52 | Morgaine | It's open source, after all ;-) |
| 15:15.08 | Morgaine | I'm already on drugs ... tea ;-) |
| 15:16.04 | *** join/#openmoko mv_ (n=mv@a88-112-60-192.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 15:16.07 | sannes | Morgaine: lucky you, think I've read somewhere that reality is for those that can't take drugs :P |
| 15:16.44 | hrw | cu |
| 15:17.02 | mv_ | Hi, I am not a developer, but like to ask one question on X11 on the OpenMoko phone |
| 15:17.11 | noidd | go right ahead mv |
| 15:17.16 | noidd | and Welcome |
| 15:17.33 | mv_ | My Nokia 770 does not allow the soft keyboard to be used for typing into a remote app. |
| 15:17.54 | noidd | That's wierd |
| 15:17.56 | mv_ | How is that with openmoko? |
| 15:18.01 | noidd | I can't think of any reason why that would be |
| 15:18.12 | Robot101 | noidd: the input methods are plugins into gtk |
| 15:18.22 | mv_ | The keyboard seems to be directly plugged into gtk |
| 15:18.31 | noidd | Ok, but gtk will plug the inputs down to X11 tho |
| 15:18.34 | mv_ | stupid :-( |
| 15:18.48 | noidd | Ok, now that is stupid |
| 15:18.58 | noidd | conventient but still stupid |
| 15:19.04 | Robot101 | not really, it's hooked into certain widgets |
| 15:19.13 | mv_ | I can only tell how it is: a remote app having keyboard input will not bring up the N770's soft kbd |
| 15:19.27 | Robot101 | things that need keyboard input pop up a keyboard when you tap them |
| 15:19.39 | Robot101 | and pop up the full screen keyboard when you hit it with your finger |
| 15:19.49 | Robot101 | number boxes pop up a number keyboard |
| 15:19.50 | mv_ | Robot101: locally yes. Remotely no |
| 15:19.54 | Robot101 | password boxes don't show stuff, etc |
| 15:20.05 | mv_ | Sure :-) |
| 15:20.05 | Robot101 | mv_: yes, I'm explaining why it's not stupid to have it as part of gtk |
| 15:20.17 | noidd | I see the advantag ethere |
| 15:20.31 | noidd | but the disad\vantage just isn't worth it imho |
| 15:20.38 | mv_ | It means I cannot use LyX running on my desktop |
| 15:21.50 | Robot101 | noidd: you need widget set integration to do stuff like word-based prediction, deleting characters, etc |
| 15:21.55 | Morgaine | sannes: well, we're a walking cauldron of drugs of ever-changing composition, highly affected by metabolic intake, so the whole idea of a drug-free reality is somewhat bizarre. |
| 15:22.12 | Robot101 | noidd: the full-screen finger keyboard also shows you the contents of the buffer you're editing, in a smaller window at the top |
| 15:22.41 | noidd | Ok, but if it doesn't allow entry into a generic X11 app then its useless |
| 15:22.45 | noidd | sorry, not useless |
| 15:22.49 | noidd | not useful to me :-) |
| 15:23.04 | mv_ | I see the validity of the password argument though |
| 15:23.25 | noidd | it locks you into one widget set |
| 15:23.45 | mv_ | Anybody tried with a Zaurus or so? |
| 15:23.54 | noidd | which is the reason I'm guessing we use X11 instead of just Gtk to framebuffer |
| 15:23.57 | Robot101 | if you port apps to the 770 its not hard to hook their IM stuff into it |
| 15:24.03 | SpeedEvil | xvkbd! |
| 15:24.06 | noidd | back in a sec |
| 15:24.11 | Robot101 | noidd: gtk on framebuffer is slower than on X |
| 15:24.19 | noidd | eww, |
| 15:24.19 | mv_ | SpeedEvil: yes I looked at that |
| 15:24.30 | SpeedEvil | Not really. |
| 15:24.43 | SpeedEvil | Though it is a handy first cut. |
| 15:26.02 | *** part/#openmoko mv_ (n=mv@a88-112-60-192.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 15:28.44 | SpeedEvil | I have it accessible for whe my keyb locks, but mouse doesn't. |
| 15:32.39 | SpeedEvil | I am maybe faster with grafiti. A means of entry that can be used without looking would be nice. |
| 15:33.15 | noidd | ok, heading to class |
| 15:33.16 | Stephmw | wonder when the various patents on grafiti expire.. |
| 15:33.20 | noidd | see y'al in a while |
| 15:33.39 | Morgaine | Cya noidd |
| 15:33.40 | Stephmw | ciao noidd |
| 15:34.16 | *** part/#openmoko NamNT (n=namnt@cm96.delta197.maxonline.com.sg) |
| 15:36.20 | buz | do we have a stylo on neo? |
| 15:36.25 | buz | cant remember |
| 15:36.30 | CM | buz: Yes |
| 15:36.30 | koen | I'm not sure either |
| 15:36.42 | buz | graffiti with fingers would suck |
| 15:36.45 | CM | LaF0rge confirmed it once |
| 15:37.09 | Stephmw | buz: time to trim those nails into points |
| 15:37.13 | Morgaine | Dasher is fine with fingers though |
| 15:37.40 | buz | Stephmw: now that would be truly geeky |
| 15:37.49 | buz | or maybe some pointy thing to stick on your nail |
| 15:37.55 | SpeedEvil | There are 'pointer rings'. |
| 15:38.06 | SpeedEvil | These are rings, with a flip-down pointer. |
| 15:38.19 | SpeedEvil | Stylus rings, or whatever. |
| 15:38.33 | buz | mhh a ring near the end of my finger? |
| 15:38.37 | Morgaine | Use the antenna ;-) |
| 15:38.38 | SpeedEvil | I wonder how much you can reduce the dasher window, and still get it to work logically. |
| 15:38.39 | buz | you're bound to lose that all the time |
| 15:39.05 | SpeedEvil | I don't remember exactly how it worked - IIRC not. |
| 15:39.33 | SpeedEvil | Dasher works (in theory) quite well - just keeping your finger stationary on a small spot on the display, and rocking it. |
| 15:40.00 | Morgaine | SpeedEvil: probably starts to fail badly as soon as your finger takes up more than 1/4 screen say. |
| 15:40.08 | SpeedEvil | I'm unsure how much of the display has to be devoted to dasher. |
| 15:40.14 | SpeedEvil | Probably most. |
| 15:40.20 | Morgaine | Yeah |
| 15:40.24 | SpeedEvil | yeah - fingers as pointers suck. |
| 15:40.52 | SpeedEvil | And of course you need protective films if you are even thinking about using a pointer. |
| 15:41.50 | Morgaine | Well I've never lost a Palm pointer, and it's not as if they cost much if you do lose one. And if you lose one in the field, any old pointy thing works for a while. So I'd live a pointer slot in v2. |
| 15:41.55 | Morgaine | love* |
| 15:43.58 | SpeedEvil | I'm unsure about the A780 interface. http://www.motorola.com/motoinfo/product/details.jsp?globalObjectId=70 it has interesting features. If you alter the backlight on the screen so that it can only illuminate a small patch, then you can expose that through a flip, for small amounts of power use. |
| 15:44.01 | buz | no slot? then wtf are we supposed to put the pen |
| 15:44.01 | *** join/#openmoko greghunt (n=greg@88-108-72-56.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) |
| 15:44.30 | SpeedEvil | Relatively small. |
| 15:44.55 | buz | any odd pen is fine by me |
| 15:45.00 | buz | as long as it lives inside the phone |
| 15:45.19 | buz | the original p800 must have had one of the most braindead pen storages ever |
| 15:51.44 | *** join/#openmoko ozamosi (n=ozamosi@85.8.4.243.se.wasadata.net) |
| 15:55.07 | *** join/#openmoko ab (n=ab@mail.samba.org) |
| 15:56.53 | Lazerdye | does anybody know when the openmoko source will be available? Or is it already available in the OE repositories? |
| 15:57.23 | Clint | counter |
| 15:57.23 | aloril | 14:02:36 (0.585 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.585 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.585 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (230) |
| 15:57.31 | Lazerdye | Aha! |
| 15:58.06 | Lazerdye | Thanks. |
| 16:03.33 | *** join/#openmoko snatches (n=slapnik@rrcs-70-61-81-90.midsouth.biz.rr.com) |
| 16:04.12 | Morgaine | If a touchscreen is not simply pressure-sensitive, and doesn't respond to random capacitive or inductive junk held by it either, but only to its specific stylus, what technology is it likely to be using? (Actually referring to my Tosh Tecra M4 screen.) |
| 16:05.33 | Morgaine | The stylus isn't tethered nor powered, to eliminate a few options. |
| 16:09.10 | *** join/#openmoko disguy__147 (i=ariel@gateway/tor/x-29efac313777d22a) |
| 16:09.16 | snatches | so when will the source code and the wiki for this project be available? I thought today was the day |
| 16:09.30 | Lazerdye | counter |
| 16:09.30 | aloril | 13:50:29 (0.577 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.577 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.577 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (231) |
| 16:09.36 | Lazerdye | Cool! |
| 16:11.29 | snatches | dang, gotta wait a few more hours :) |
| 16:12.34 | Morgaine | Get in line. (j/k) |
| 16:13.07 | snatches | yea, i know I'm not alone in anticipation |
| 16:15.20 | pH5 | Morgaine: I'd guess it's some kind of electromagnetic resonance digitizer like those wacom tablets. |
| 16:16.09 | Morgaine | pH5: the driver is Wacom-compatible, so that would make sense. But tried to look up what tech Wacom uses, and failed so far. |
| 16:16.43 | snatches | anyone have any info on the web-browser/Flash capabilities? |
| 16:17.55 | *** join/#openmoko cathal (n=cathal@89.100.101.244) |
| 16:18.11 | pH5 | Morgaine: http://www.wacom-components.com/english/technology/emr.html |
| 16:18.33 | Morgaine | snatches: if gnash can do it, it'll work. But I'm not putting an Adobe binary on my phone. prolly won't fit anyway ;-) |
| 16:18.50 | Morgaine | pH5: thanks, you're a better surfer than me ;-) |
| 16:22.48 | Morgaine | Yep, that sounds exactly like the system the Tecra uses. |
| 16:25.58 | koen | heh |
| 16:26.03 | koen | "erm, to be honest, this was already the second attempt to register the java-openmoko project correctly." |
| 16:26.18 | Morgaine | lol |
| 16:31.11 | koen | I wonder when the java deathsquad comes knocking down my door |
| 16:31.42 | Clint | to throw exceptions at you? |
| 16:31.51 | *** join/#openmoko Magon (n=Magon@213.155.227.226) |
| 16:32.26 | SuN | Yeah, I imagine they will try {} to catch {} you. |
| 16:32.51 | Magon | hi, all |
| 16:32.55 | SuN | Hi |
| 16:33.13 | Magon | i finally cautch up with mailing list :-) |
| 16:33.42 | SpeedEvil | So it's 4AM GMT that it's released? |
| 16:33.46 | SpeedEvil | counter |
| 16:33.46 | aloril | 13:26:13 (0.560 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.560 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.560 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (232) |
| 16:33.54 | SpeedEvil | Err - no. |
| 16:34.13 | SpeedEvil | 7ish. |
| 16:34.23 | *** join/#openmoko swissy (n=swissy@84-74-83-99.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 16:35.08 | Magon | have anyone idea to whom will be devices availible in phase-0? |
| 16:35.16 | *** join/#openmoko ab (n=ab@mail.samba.org) |
| 16:35.22 | SpeedEvil | Those that have been notified by email. |
| 16:35.31 | Magon | ok |
| 16:35.32 | Magon | thx |
| 16:36.10 | SpeedEvil | In a month anyone with money can get one. |
| 16:36.24 | Magon | i know..waiting for that |
| 16:36.38 | koen | or if you don't have monney, steal one |
| 16:36.47 | Magon | :-) |
| 16:37.28 | SuN | I sincerely wonder if the neo is small enough for daily use... it's not that much bigger than my E680, but the E680 is not that small to start with. |
| 16:37.38 | SpeedEvil | Make a mockup. |
| 16:37.43 | SpeedEvil | Wood, ... |
| 16:38.12 | SuN | Heh I did that when I was considering buying the E680... 2D, out of paper, but that's enough for me. |
| 16:38.31 | SuN | However, since then, for some reason, all rulers in this house have disappeared. |
| 16:39.05 | SpeedEvil | I just mean get a block of wood of around the right size, knock the corners off with some sandpaper, add a little weight with NiMH AA batteries or something. |
| 16:39.35 | SuN | Yeah, I know. Sounds more trivial than it actually is, though. |
| 16:39.45 | SuN | Where am I going to find wood in 2007! |
| 16:39.47 | SpeedEvil | Well, maybe. |
| 16:40.01 | SpeedEvil | I'm probably influenced by the current project that's taking up most of my time. |
| 16:40.09 | SpeedEvil | http://www.mauve.plus.com/walls.html |
| 16:40.15 | SpeedEvil | Insulating my house. |
| 16:40.44 | SuN | Woa, that's a major overhaul. |
| 16:41.29 | SpeedEvil | Indeed :) |
| 16:41.41 | Morgaine | Anything smaller than a 19" rack unit is too small ;-) |
| 16:41.55 | SuN | For a phone? |
| 16:41.57 | SuN | Hah |
| 16:42.38 | Morgaine | Oh alright, I'll compromise: anything smaller than my Nokia Communicator is too small ;-) But that's almost 19" ... ;-) |
| 16:42.57 | SpeedEvil | It's hard to do. |
| 16:43.19 | SpeedEvil | I want a full sized 102 key keyboard that fits in my pocket, with a 19" monitor. |
| 16:43.36 | SpeedEvil | Though I also want it to be usable when it's held in the hand. |
| 16:43.45 | Morgaine | Size is an issue. Maybe we should just work on clothing suppliers to increase the size of pockets ;-) |
| 16:44.00 | SpeedEvil | I'm coming to realise just how well done my laptop is. |
| 16:44.06 | SuN | Or sell slaves along with the phones. |
| 16:44.21 | SpeedEvil | 1.1Kg, 3 hours stock battery life (6 hours now) 11" display. |
| 16:44.23 | Morgaine | Slaves are cool ... mechanical ones. |
| 16:44.36 | SuN | I don't care whether they're mechanical ;) |
| 16:44.42 | SuN | After all, humans are just machines. |
| 16:44.46 | SpeedEvil | I have previously suggested a pony, with saddlebags for the other accessories. |
| 16:44.48 | SuN | SpeedEvil: which one do you have? |
| 16:44.50 | Magon | SpeedEvil: you can have keyboard projected to solid surface, and screen just like that |
| 16:44.57 | SpeedEvil | Toshiba 3110CT |
| 16:45.00 | SuN | :D |
| 16:45.06 | *** part/#openmoko snatches (n=slapnik@rrcs-70-61-81-90.midsouth.biz.rr.com) |
| 16:45.28 | SuN | Ahh, an old Portege. |
| 16:45.46 | SuN | I've been at the verge of buying one more than once, but I was always skeptic about the battery. |
| 16:45.58 | Morgaine | My Tecra M4 is allegedly a portable tablet. But you'd have to be Arnie to use it so. |
| 16:46.12 | SpeedEvil | It only has 6 hour battery life as I've upgraded the cells to 2400mAh from 1300. |
| 16:46.34 | *** join/#openmoko incinerator (n=sabine@80-192-23-26.stb.ubr04.edin.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 16:46.48 | SuN | SpeedEvil: how much did that cost, and did you have to hack it? |
| 16:47.06 | SpeedEvil | Err... IIRC around $6 (us) per cell. |
| 16:47.15 | SpeedEvil | Times 6, and yes, it involves soldering. |
| 16:47.56 | SpeedEvil | http://www.dealextreme.com/ is where I got them. |
| 16:48.35 | Morgaine | I want a thin and light tablet that I can chuck onto the sofa without demolishing the sofa springs. |
| 16:49.20 | *** join/#openmoko esden (n=esden@p54995AD8.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 16:49.31 | SpeedEvil | That's easy. |
| 16:49.46 | SpeedEvil | Many of them will crack into tiny bits, and not damage anything you throw them onto. |
| 16:53.23 | *** join/#openmoko orospakr (n=orospakr@bas11-ottawa23-1177563819.dsl.bell.ca) |
| 16:55.02 | *** part/#openmoko srikantux (n=sri@59.92.168.98) |
| 17:03.01 | Magon | do anyone know if/where is source for OpenMoko avalible? |
| 17:04.21 | CoreDump|home | Magon, AFAIK it has not been released yet |
| 17:04.36 | LittleIdiot | counter |
| 17:04.36 | aloril | 12:55:23 (0.538 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.538 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.538 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (233) |
| 17:04.53 | LittleIdiot | *sigh* |
| 17:05.41 | *** join/#openmoko _-InFeRnO-_ (n=KeKeKe@cable-84-43-138-4.mnet.bg) |
| 17:05.46 | _-InFeRnO-_ | hello |
| 17:06.11 | _-InFeRnO-_ | anyone knows where can I find the source code? |
| 17:06.14 | _-InFeRnO-_ | thanks |
| 17:07.03 | Magon | _-InFeRnO-_: i asked 2 minutes ago...it hasnt been released |
| 17:07.31 | *** join/#openmoko gw280 (n=george@vm.gwright.org.uk) |
| 17:08.09 | Magon | they said 2007-2-11, but do anyone know where ? :-) |
| 17:08.35 | LittleIdiot | i suppose svn.openmoko.org ;) |
| 17:08.56 | Magon | meening which timezone |
| 17:09.04 | _-InFeRnO-_ | ha |
| 17:09.09 | _-InFeRnO-_ | in my country |
| 17:09.15 | XorA | Magon: they never said at what time in 11-02-2007 though, there are a few more hours to go in Alaska |
| 17:09.31 | _-InFeRnO-_ | it's just 7 PM |
| 17:09.35 | Magon | XorA: that is my poing :-) |
| 17:09.38 | Magon | point |
| 17:09.59 | Magon | i have even 6PM |
| 17:10.29 | XorA | 17:11 here |
| 17:10.30 | Magon | we would definetly need world clock...timezones are killing |
| 17:10.56 | Magon | XorA: i suppose you are in britan |
| 17:11.11 | orospakr | hm, will the devices sold in March be the same (hardware-wise) as the ones sold in September? |
| 17:11.20 | _-InFeRnO-_ | I'm in Bulgaria, and it's 2 hours ahead of UK |
| 17:11.27 | Magon | orospakr: tricky, but probably not |
| 17:11.42 | XorA | Magon: yes, good old Zulu time |
| 17:11.50 | Magon | i am in the middle in Czech :-) |
| 17:12.03 | Magon | GTM is best timezone |
| 17:12.17 | _-InFeRnO-_ | it seems that I hit the right day to search for OSS phone code |
| 17:12.26 | Magon | _-InFeRnO-_: yes |
| 17:12.55 | Magon | but i missed the right day to get development one in phase-0 |
| 17:13.20 | Magon | it took me too long to catch up with mailing list |
| 17:14.48 | ajturner | Magon - have they notified everyone receiving a phase0/1 dev phone? |
| 17:16.10 | Magon | ajturner: someone said me that yes for phase-0..in phase-1 you have to buy it :-) |
| 17:16.30 | ajturner | understood - was just curious about phase 0 phones |
| 17:16.44 | XorA | ajturner: phase 0 devs got an email a couple of weeks ago |
| 17:16.52 | Magon | ajturner: and i cannot think of other way how to get they address to send it |
| 17:16.55 | ajturner | I only heard Koen exclaim :) |
| 17:16.55 | SpeedEvil | I would not be astonished if a P0 phone turns up on ebay. |
| 17:17.15 | ajturner | well, I've emailed the team and never heard anything |
| 17:17.19 | _-InFeRnO-_ | i wonder if the source code will be GPL right now, or it's under fair use |
| 17:17.21 | SpeedEvil | I don't know what the reaction to that would be though. (other than "bad developer, Bad". |
| 17:17.28 | Magon | that would meen that Sean choosed wrong guy |
| 17:17.42 | SpeedEvil | You do not have to release GPLd code until you release binaries. |
| 17:17.53 | _-InFeRnO-_ | yes |
| 17:18.04 | _-InFeRnO-_ | but will the code be gpl |
| 17:18.10 | _-InFeRnO-_ | before any binaries |
| 17:18.11 | koen | SpeedEvil: not even then |
| 17:18.21 | koen | SpeedEvil: you only have to provide it on request |
| 17:18.22 | SpeedEvil | ? |
| 17:18.26 | SpeedEvil | Oh - yes. |
| 17:19.12 | Morgaine | The one person who gets the sources though is 100% entitled to publish them to the world, by GPL. |
| 17:19.24 | SpeedEvil | True. |
| 17:19.37 | Morgaine | So in practice, might as well just make them public. |
| 17:20.00 | SpeedEvil | There is no problem with having a small team that all agree to release on a given date though. |
| 17:20.21 | SpeedEvil | Also - some of the stuff may be closed source ATM. |
| 17:20.28 | SpeedEvil | With a very restrictive licence. |
| 17:20.37 | SpeedEvil | That will only be GPLd on the day. |
| 17:21.25 | Magon | just wondering, do anyone know pattern how were 'selected developers' selected? |
| 17:22.06 | Morgaine | Well, this isn't any old closed phone company titillating us with possible openness. This is FIC making an open phone *by design* and by expressed intent. Any deviation from that is not going to go down well. |
| 17:22.55 | ajturner | Morgaine - there will probably be closed-source drivers |
| 17:23.03 | ajturner | that's not FIC |
| 17:23.06 | Morgaine | ajturner: no there won't. |
| 17:23.17 | koen | ajturner: no there won't |
| 17:23.31 | ajturner | really? I thought for sure I heard that the AGPS drivers were closed for now |
| 17:23.38 | koen | not with harald welte doing the kernel work |
| 17:23.41 | Morgaine | That's not a drer |
| 17:23.44 | Morgaine | driver* |
| 17:24.18 | Morgaine | There is one closed-source *daemon* in the system, agpsd. Full stop. Use-space. |
| 17:24.18 | Morgaine | User* |
| 17:24.23 | Morgaine | Bad typing today, sorry. |
| 17:24.53 | ajturner | well, where is the daemon getting it's info? |
| 17:25.07 | Morgaine | ajturner: from a serial port that is available to us. |
| 17:25.13 | ajturner | if that's the case, should be simple to port gpsd |
| 17:25.33 | ajturner | or is the agpsd daemon then making data calls for the assistive-part? |
| 17:25.34 | koen | port? |
| 17:25.37 | koen | port?!?!? |
| 17:25.39 | koen | port?!?!?!? |
| 17:25.40 | ajturner | or other closed-source logic? |
| 17:25.55 | XorA|familly | koen: smoke some ganja, they are but young uns |
| 17:26.03 | SpeedEvil | The gpsd daemon cooks the raw hardware output into positioning information. |
| 17:26.04 | Morgaine | ajturner: we hope that some details of the stream will be supplied by FIC, so that we don't have to reverse-engineer from scratch. But we'll do so if we must. |
| 17:26.11 | SpeedEvil | That it can then output as positions. |
| 17:26.28 | SpeedEvil | You do not in practice need to replace the gpsd. |
| 17:26.29 | koen | XorA|familly: gave that up after moving out of the dorms :) |
| 17:26.34 | ajturner | koen - what's the matter? |
| 17:26.34 | SpeedEvil | It gives all the information you need. |
| 17:26.43 | ajturner | I mis-spoke? |
| 17:26.52 | koen | my 'port' alarm went off |
| 17:27.05 | ajturner | do educate |
| 17:27.17 | koen | 'port' and 'ROM' are being abused by too many people |
| 17:27.35 | hrw|tv | kOEn: romkl0n3rZ |
| 17:27.47 | ajturner | well, wouldn't recompiling gpsd to run on the Neo1973 chip (arm?) be porting? |
| 17:27.47 | *** join/#openmoko koljoman (n=nenni@rb4d109.net.upc.cz) |
| 17:27.49 | hrw|tv | wiki still closed ;( |
| 17:27.57 | _-InFeRnO-_ | ROM RLZ |
| 17:28.00 | SpeedEvil | gpsd is a closed-source app. |
| 17:28.01 | koen | ajturner: no, that's recompiling |
| 17:28.05 | SpeedEvil | IT's binary. |
| 17:28.07 | hrw|tv | ajturner: please shut up with 'port' word... |
| 17:28.30 | SpeedEvil | You need to basically write a new interpreter to decode the GPS output, and present it as positioning. |
| 17:28.37 | _-InFeRnO-_ | i will port the porting proces to Portable Porter |
| 17:28.54 | SpeedEvil | The GPS hardware does not output positions, just relative speeds of satellites. |
| 17:28.55 | Morgaine | ajturner: you're confusing the open-source "gpsd" program with the "agpsd" daemon that is supplied with the Neo. They are not related. |
| 17:28.56 | koen | On the highway I port my car to the left lane |
| 17:29.07 | koen | at home I port it to the parking space |
| 17:29.12 | hrw|tv | koen: I ported chicken to food today |
| 17:29.19 | koen | hrw|tv: cool |
| 17:29.26 | koen | I ported beef to food today |
| 17:29.29 | _-InFeRnO-_ | OMG!!! HOW YOU DID THIS |
| 17:29.30 | ajturner | Morgaine - well, I was trying to find out about the agpsd daemon - and wondering if the o/s gpsd would be sufficient |
| 17:29.44 | SpeedEvil | The open source gpsd is irrelevant. |
| 17:29.52 | SpeedEvil | It can't understand the output from the hardware. |
| 17:29.59 | koen | yet |
| 17:30.12 | Morgaine | ajturner: no, it's not sufficient, because the open-source "gpsd" only works on NMEA and Garmin data streams. |
| 17:30.12 | ajturner | well, so why is the agpsd not a 'driver'? |
| 17:30.19 | SpeedEvil | The daemon that's included with the phone does all you need it to. |
| 17:30.35 | SpeedEvil | You will not get any better results by reimplementing it. |
| 17:30.43 | ajturner | SpeedEvil - well this was kicked off by the query if there was closed-source drivers or apps |
| 17:30.45 | dottedmag | ajturner: it would be named driver if Linux is microkernel. |
| 17:30.47 | Morgaine | ajturner: "driver" has a specific meaning in Unix. Sorry, can't call just anything a driver here. |
| 17:30.50 | SpeedEvil | You may of course want to, for philosifical reasons. |
| 17:31.02 | SpeedEvil | I think that was my worst misspelling ever. |
| 17:32.09 | Morgaine | Storm over? ;-) |
| 17:32.20 | SpeedEvil | gpsd actually should work on the output of agpsd |
| 17:32.27 | SpeedEvil | as it outputs EMA (I assume) |
| 17:32.30 | SpeedEvil | ^N |
| 17:32.39 | SpeedEvil | s/EM/ME/ |
| 17:32.40 | Morgaine | SpeedEvil: yes, that could be done as a stopgap. |
| 17:32.41 | dottedmag | counter |
| 17:32.41 | aloril | 12:27:18 (0.519 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.519 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.519 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (234) |
| 17:32.48 | ajturner | well, that's what I'm interested in - what is the interface/output of agpsd then? |
| 17:32.56 | *** join/#openmoko wbx_ (n=wbx@gprs-pool-1-023.eplus-online.de) |
| 17:32.58 | SpeedEvil | It outputs NEMA positions. |
| 17:33.04 | koen | NMEA? |
| 17:33.08 | SpeedEvil | As I understand it. |
| 17:33.10 | SpeedEvil | Gah. |
| 17:33.16 | Morgaine | As long as it's not ENEMA we're OK |
| 17:33.19 | SpeedEvil | I keep making that typo. |
| 17:33.52 | SpeedEvil | The phone probably won't get signal there. |
| 17:33.55 | ajturner | ah, so will include info like DOP and obs sats? |
| 17:34.09 | Magon | but it probably also sets the AGPS chip, and that generic gpsd cannot handle |
| 17:34.11 | koen | no-one knows yet |
| 17:34.15 | Morgaine | In case anyone's interested: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NMEA |
| 17:34.20 | *** join/#openmoko DukeOfURL (n=chatzill@vc7-1-39.dsl.netrack.net) |
| 17:34.41 | SpeedEvil | I have designed a GPS (though not built) and bbased on the datasheet of the chip in the neo: |
| 17:35.12 | dottedmag | ugh. TLS cert on lists.openmoko.org is brain-damaged. |
| 17:35.20 | SpeedEvil | The GPS chip does not output positions. It's not smart enough. It outputs relative speeds of the satellites, and the datastreams that the satellites are sending. |
| 17:35.40 | SpeedEvil | You have to then compute the positon based on these datastreams and speeds. |
| 17:35.53 | SpeedEvil | the 'a' part is implemented entirely in software. |
| 17:36.09 | koen | the tools to compute that are already out there |
| 17:36.16 | SpeedEvil | By modelling where the satellites are, rather than waiting for them to finish telling you. |
| 17:36.38 | Morgaine | SpeedEvil: In the long term, that's very promising because we'll be able to do a "proper job" with that data. In the short term though, it might be hard. |
| 17:36.52 | SpeedEvil | This means you can startup in a second or so, rather than minutes for a 'cold start' |
| 17:37.11 | SpeedEvil | IMO, you won't be able to do significantly better. |
| 17:37.27 | SpeedEvil | As the neo reciever already gets industry standard positioning info. |
| 17:37.46 | SpeedEvil | A lot of the errors are outside the reciever, in the upper atmosphere. |
| 17:38.03 | Morgaine | Well in that case we can definitely do significantly better. Anything commercial is always a compromise ;-) |
| 17:38.08 | SpeedEvil | Per-satellite variations in atmosphere. |
| 17:38.16 | SpeedEvil | Not really. |
| 17:38.49 | SpeedEvil | The errors in commercial recievers - other than what is imposed on them by variations int he timing of the signals through the atmosphere varying is not large. |
| 17:38.54 | SpeedEvil | are not large. |
| 17:39.22 | SpeedEvil | I could see maybe getting from 2m average error to 1.8m _maybe_. |
| 17:39.44 | SpeedEvil | You're not getting to 50cm though with one reciever. |
| 17:40.09 | SpeedEvil | Sharing dgps information or similar over bluetooth/interneet may get you there. |
| 17:40.28 | Morgaine | Nice idea. |
| 17:40.52 | ajturner | well, hopefully future revs will have WiFi as well - then can do some augmentation through that - esp in urban canyons/indoors |
| 17:41.02 | pH5 | fluffs: :) |
| 17:41.09 | SpeedEvil | Though with the class of bluetooth in the neo, it's probably easier just to walk over to the bluetooth AP :) |
| 17:41.12 | fluffs | well, i was up 4am to watch the cricket |
| 17:44.52 | _-InFeRnO-_ | btw, are there plans for camera phone |
| 17:44.59 | SpeedEvil | Maybe. |
| 17:45.08 | SpeedEvil | No announces. |
| 17:45.47 | SpeedEvil | Well - one. |
| 17:45.59 | SpeedEvil | Developers that buy P1 will get discount on P2. |
| 17:46.26 | *** join/#openmoko Stephmw (n=steph@212.69.51.139) |
| 17:49.32 | Morgaine | Oooh, productivity enticement ;-) |
| 17:49.38 | Stephmw | hmm? |
| 17:49.43 | fluffs | right, my first round of 2.6.20 patches done |
| 17:49.46 | fluffs | round two preparing |
| 17:50.15 | Morgaine | Speed prolly meant v1 and v2 |
| 17:50.40 | SpeedEvil | Err, yes. He did. |
| 17:50.45 | Morgaine | :-) |
| 17:50.47 | koen | fluffs: s3c base stuff? |
| 17:51.05 | fluffs | yes |
| 17:53.16 | *** join/#openmoko Zer0Her0 (n=Z@17.255.240.70) |
| 17:53.48 | *** join/#openmoko Rac0r_ (n=Rac0r@p5081EFDD.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 17:54.41 | Zer0Her0 | counter |
| 17:54.42 | aloril | 12:05:17 (0.504 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.504 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.504 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (235) |
| 17:55.03 | Zer0Her0 | argh .504 days :( |
| 17:55.50 | koen | counter |
| 17:55.51 | aloril | 12:04:09 (0.503 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.503 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.503 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (236) |
| 17:57.35 | ajturner | at least February is a short month ;) |
| 17:59.11 | SpeedEvil | 1 min 24s = 1/1000th day |
| 17:59.28 | koen | counter |
| 17:59.28 | aloril | 12:00:31 (0.500 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.500 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.500 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (237) |
| 17:59.36 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 17:59.37 | koen | only half a day left :) |
| 17:59.42 | koen | counter |
| 17:59.42 | aloril | 12:00:17 (0.500 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.500 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.500 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (238) |
| 18:00.07 | Zer0Her0 | woohoo |
| 18:00.33 | Zer0Her0 | i got all excited because i was thinking 11th was monday then i realized it was today..but looks like it might as well be monday then :( |
| 18:10.01 | *** join/#openmoko mlpug (n=user@a85-156-253-211.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 18:11.02 | *** join/#openmoko esden (n=esden@fortuna.bingo-ev.de) |
| 18:11.48 | *** join/#openmoko cathal (n=cathal@89.100.101.244) |
| 18:16.25 | *** join/#openmoko zipola (n=zipola@zip.kortex.jyu.fi) |
| 18:39.46 | *** join/#openmoko wbx (n=wbx@gprs-pool-1-020.eplus-online.de) |
| 18:45.02 | rob_w | does the actual neo really has that big whole on its casings bottom end ? is this tobe as a neglett ?? |
| 18:45.04 | hrw | openmoko wiki still closed ;( |
| 18:45.10 | rob_w | hey hrw |
| 18:47.46 | SuN | What's a neglett? |
| 18:48.07 | rob_w | i dont know the english word , but a chain around your neck .. so to speak |
| 18:49.03 | SuN | A necklace? |
| 18:49.04 | *** join/#openmoko boorad (n=boorad@adsl-219-44-120.asm.bellsouth.net) |
| 18:49.16 | SuN | It's fairly large to be worn as a necklace, I guess. |
| 18:49.19 | stefan_schmidt | lanyard |
| 18:49.23 | SuN | But the hole seems to be there anyhow. |
| 18:49.38 | stefan_schmidt | And yes, the whole is for the lanyard and the lanyard is in the box. |
| 18:49.38 | boorad | stefan_schmidt: feeling okay? |
| 18:50.14 | stefan_schmidt | boorad: More or less. Cold is gone, still learning. |
| 18:50.39 | stefan_schmidt | boorad: So it could be better. thx |
| 18:50.44 | boorad | cool - I've been away for a while - is this thing gonna be opened up today? |
| 18:50.53 | stefan_schmidt | yes |
| 18:51.06 | SuN | Yes, though "today" is quite relative :) |
| 18:51.06 | stefan_schmidt | Not sure which timezone. :) |
| 18:51.21 | boorad | Aleutian Islands... |
| 18:51.54 | hrw | boorad: atleast it had to be today |
| 18:52.39 | buz | 19th would be optimal for me because of that reason ;) |
| 18:53.02 | boorad | will check back later, cya |
| 18:53.34 | koen | counter |
| 18:53.34 | aloril | 11:06:30 (0.463 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.463 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.463 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (239) |
| 18:54.30 | boorad | oh, any D people in here might find this interesting: |
| 18:54.32 | boorad | http://www.dsource.org/projects/tioport/browser/trunk/doc/paint.png?format=raw |
| 18:54.50 | boorad | this is a SWT port to D, natively compiled on Linux |
| 18:56.30 | boorad | and there's now a D compiler that works with gcc 4.1.1 |
| 18:56.37 | boorad | :-D |
| 18:56.48 | buz | http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/weblogsinc/engadgetmobile/~3/89409763/ THIS I want, with linux of course |
| 18:57.26 | SuN | Yeah, awesome hardware. |
| 18:57.43 | SuN | The entire HTC line is very neat stuff as well, but severely crippled by the software. |
| 18:57.58 | SuN | I would have had one ages ago if they ran Linux in a.. productive way. |
| 18:57.59 | buz | well htc only has QVGA for the tytn |
| 18:58.05 | buz | yeah me too |
| 18:58.15 | buz | a linux running VGA tytn i'd buy in a heartbeat |
| 18:58.33 | SuN | I'd even settle for 320x240... that's what my E680 has. |
| 18:59.45 | SuN | Bleh, why are ancient Librettos still so expensive? |
| 19:00.04 | SuN | ~50 euro sounds like a fair price, but not a single cent more. |
| 19:01.31 | SuN | This 120MHz model, 16MB RAM, is at EUR 170 (bids, not BIN) on Ebay right now! |
| 19:03.33 | buz | i dont like libretto |
| 19:03.40 | SuN | Why not? |
| 19:03.42 | buz | not useful as pda and not useful as laptop either |
| 19:03.55 | buz | and i have small fingers |
| 19:04.00 | SuN | :) |
| 19:04.09 | SuN | It'd be a nice machine for me for on the road browsing and perhaps coding. |
| 19:04.27 | SuN | And as a media vault, with a 20GB HD or so. |
| 19:04.46 | SuN | I have a Zaurus now, but it's not as useful as a mini-laptop as I'd want it to be. |
| 19:04.47 | matrx | there are a lot of more contemporary machines to fit that bill |
| 19:05.13 | SuN | In that price range as well? |
| 19:05.31 | buz | coding on 120mhz? |
| 19:05.36 | buz | you'll wait |
| 19:05.38 | SuN | I'd pay ~100 EUR for something faster than 266MHz. |
| 19:05.47 | SuN | Scripting, to be exact, I guess. |
| 19:05.49 | SuN | Web development. |
| 19:06.06 | buz | do scripting languages even fit in 16mb ram these days |
| 19:06.17 | SuN | PHP does, easily. |
| 19:06.21 | matrx | not in the 50-100 euro range, no |
| 19:06.24 | buz | with a whole os? |
| 19:06.41 | buz | that's gonna be slow as hell |
| 19:06.51 | SuN | 16MB is a bit cramped if you want X, but 32MB should be enough for X + php and perhaps a lightweight browser. |
| 19:07.11 | matrx | and a lot of swap space |
| 19:07.20 | hrw | SuN: I have 112M device here which has some problems with getting X working |
| 19:07.34 | Morgaine | boorad: very cool re D! No Gentoo ebuild for gdc as yet, and I don't want to build a compiler outside of system support, but I'm sure that'll come soon. |
| 19:07.55 | SuN | hrw: related to hardware limitations? |
| 19:08.16 | SuN | I've ran X on a 486 with 16MB RAM. Couldn't do much more, but it worked. |
| 19:08.20 | matrx | anything slower than a zaurus clamshell is not usefull as a road laptop in my experience |
| 19:08.32 | boorad | Morgaine: http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=48136 |
| 19:08.54 | boorad | Morgaine: it's not in Portage, but compiled just fine for me a couple of days ago |
| 19:08.58 | SuN | A 120MHz Pentium will in most cases be about as fast as a 400MHz XScale (forgive the apples/pears). |
| 19:09.05 | Morgaine | boorad: woot!!!! |
| 19:09.21 | SuN | Well I have my real laptop for when I need serious stuff done. |
| 19:09.22 | boorad | and the 0.22 version is the one working with 4.1.1 |
| 19:09.26 | buz | yeah but most xscales have a lot more ram than 16mb |
| 19:09.44 | SuN | Not a lot, but a bit more, indeed. |
| 19:09.56 | buz | 64mb is like standard for winmobile pda |
| 19:09.59 | SuN | My phone has 48MB. |
| 19:10.04 | boorad | Morgaine: the SWT app was 4MB, so a bit more to trim, but it's early in the Java -> D converter's life |
| 19:10.06 | hrw | SuN: memory outage |
| 19:10.15 | SuN | I think my Zaurus has 64MB, not sure. |
| 19:10.43 | SuN | hrw: that's weird, I can hardly imagine that. |
| 19:10.51 | matrx | most zaurus have 64mb, a few 16 and 32 |
| 19:11.05 | SuN | I'd check, but it's in a different room :) |
| 19:11.06 | Morgaine | boorad: yeah, saw your linked graphic |
| 19:11.28 | SuN | 128MB flash, 64MB RAM if I recall correctly. |
| 19:12.06 | SuN | I guess I could get more out of my Zaurus than I'm currently getting. |
| 19:12.13 | *** join/#openmoko ozamosi (n=ozamosi@cust.fiber-lan.vnet.lk.85.194.49.186.stunet.se) |
| 19:12.14 | koen | any volunteers for adding gdc 0.22 to OE? |
| 19:12.23 | SuN | Perhaps install a Slackware variant on it. |
| 19:14.06 | Magon | is there any how-to for building OE enviroment? |
| 19:14.21 | Clint | check their wiki |
| 19:14.40 | boorad | koen: potentially, although real job is sucking the life out of me recently. |
| 19:15.34 | *** join/#openmoko chrustinho (n=christop@p57B03D9B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 19:15.58 | Magon | i switched to scratchbox after a while trying to get OE, when i needed to compile something for arm |
| 19:16.12 | SuN | A Sony Picturebook would be nice, but those are even more outrageously overpriced than the librettos. |
| 19:16.25 | buz | good look with running linux on sony hardware |
| 19:16.39 | SuN | My laptop is a Sony. |
| 19:16.45 | SuN | It's pretty standard. |
| 19:17.01 | SuN | Even the Memory stick slot is supported now. |
| 19:18.32 | matrx | i'm definately a sony whore |
| 19:18.34 | buz | the sd slot is the only thing not supported on my toshiba portege |
| 19:18.41 | buz | oh and suspend to disk is somehow broken |
| 19:18.57 | *** join/#openmoko thedaniel (n=daniel@netblock-68-183-179-95.dslextreme.com) |
| 19:18.58 | Magon | buz: what graphic adapter? |
| 19:19.02 | SuN | Sony makes nice laptops, but I'm not buying any of their consumer electronics anymore. |
| 19:19.04 | buz | gf5200go |
| 19:19.11 | SuN | DRM-ridden, restricted crap. |
| 19:19.21 | Magon | suspend is mostly broken by graphic cards |
| 19:19.21 | SuN | Always requiring their own crappy software. |
| 19:19.24 | buz | it might be an edgy screwup |
| 19:19.31 | buz | actually graphics seem to work |
| 19:19.34 | buz | but usb doesnt after resume |
| 19:19.57 | buz | i need to kick the whole usb subsystem out to get it to suspend |
| 19:20.02 | buz | and afterwards restarting it wont work properly |
| 19:20.06 | Magon | buz: strange..when suspend doesnt work it is eighter graphic or disk |
| 19:20.21 | Magon | but disk just with suspend to ram |
| 19:20.29 | buz | at least i can do suspend to ram |
| 19:21.03 | buz | supposedly even the tablet feature works |
| 19:21.04 | *** join/#openmoko cying (n=cying@adsl-75-41-120-47.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) |
| 19:21.15 | buz | but since that's rather useless on xp tablet even i never bothered |
| 19:22.41 | *** join/#openmoko pleemans (n=peter@d51A5E76A.access.telenet.be) |
| 19:22.47 | hrw | koen: 401 ;( |
| 19:23.04 | koen | yep |
| 19:26.39 | Morgaine | Um, make that a coke |
| 19:26.47 | Morgaine | Or they'll fall asleep ;-) |
| 19:27.08 | Elrond | *g* |
| 19:28.49 | Elrond | bugs.om and bugzilla.om feel a little different. ;) |
| 19:29.38 | Morgaine | The project has its own TLD? ;-) |
| 19:30.24 | Elrond | of course. ;) |
| 19:30.28 | Morgaine | Hehe |
| 19:30.31 | buz | just dont mix coke and beer |
| 19:30.37 | buz | thats blasphemy if there ever was |
| 19:30.39 | Elrond | Okay: bugs.omo ;o) |
| 19:30.47 | CoreDump|home | buz, damn straight |
| 19:30.53 | Morgaine | That's a washing powder |
| 19:31.02 | Elrond | (note: omo once was a washing powder here. ;o) ) |
| 19:31.11 | buz | i think it still is |
| 19:31.25 | Elrond | Morgaine - *giggle* Two .... same thought. ;) |
| 19:31.26 | buz | not sure why people still bother with powder tho |
| 19:31.53 | Morgaine | Just to be clear, we didn't make the link to washing powder from coke ... |
| 19:31.58 | *** join/#openmoko BenC__ (n=bcollins@collinsap1.phunnypharm.org) |
| 19:32.26 | buz | might occasionally be the same though |
| 19:33.51 | Morgaine | Nice clean insides |
| 19:34.26 | buz | i was thinking nose (powder and all that) |
| 19:34.26 | Morgaine | They might look a bit odd at you frothing at the mouth though ... |
| 19:40.30 | Elrond | People will anyway control their BT washing machine using the moko ;) |
| 19:41.43 | *** join/#openmoko WillySilly (n=WillySil@archlinux/trusteduser/WillySilly) |
| 19:45.30 | *** join/#openmoko _-InFeRnO-_ (n=KeKeKe@cable-84-43-138-4.mnet.bg) |
| 19:47.34 | Morgaine | Elrond: aye, hehe, very worrying ;-) |
| 19:47.39 | *** join/#openmoko cephdon (n=cephdon@71.237.225.166) |
| 19:48.07 | *** join/#openmoko will-sama (n=WillySil@c-67-180-56-160.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 19:49.40 | *** join/#openmoko will-sama (n=WillySil@c-67-180-56-160.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 19:49.49 | Elrond | neo v2 will have IR, so geeks can control mums and dads TV ;o) |
| 19:50.34 | CoreDump|home | well there's IR and there's IR. Will it be a high-power diode or the usual low-range stuff? |
| 19:51.21 | koen | v2 will have a v8 so geeks can cruise on the highway |
| 19:51.32 | Magon | probably something not consuming whole battery at one shot |
| 19:52.10 | CoreDump|home | Magon, indeed, but that kinda rules out using it as a "remote" control ;) |
| 19:52.20 | thresh | v2? |
| 19:52.41 | Morgaine | From GPStk project: |
| 19:52.46 | Morgaine | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:53.57 | Morgaine | http://www.gpstk.org/ |
| 19:55.00 | koen | to bad gpstk autotools seems to be broken |
| 19:55.15 | koen | I made a .bb for it, but it's missing a 'make install' |
| 19:55.21 | Morgaine | koen: yeah, I noticed it bombs out on all: target |
| 19:58.08 | Morgaine | Project still active though, in ML archive, so will prolly get fixed |
| 19:58.24 | koen | well, they don't use autofoo to build it themselves |
| 19:58.36 | koen | they use some other funky system |
| 19:58.38 | Morgaine | Aye, it's jammed |
| 20:00.35 | Morgaine | Methinks this issue will come to a head some day, and autotools will rapidly get chucked out. Eg. the instant that some virus is found to spread through those nutty 100k-line shell scripts. |
| 20:01.00 | Morgaine | We're relatively safe in Gentoo because of the sandbox, but not everyone enjoys that. |
| 20:02.14 | Magon | wonders if everyone uses gentoo |
| 20:02.46 | Morgaine | I meant, not everyone has the benefit of a standard sandbox when installing packages from autotools. |
| 20:02.47 | koen | because of ricers |
| 20:02.55 | koen | -noatime -OMG |
| 20:03.41 | Elrond | Morgaine - So other auto-tools are safer? |
| 20:03.58 | Elrond | s/auto/configure |
| 20:04.19 | Morgaine | On the other hand ... they might respond to a virus vectoring through autotools by adding a sandbox into autotools .... and then those shell scripts will be 1 million lines long :-((((( |
| 20:04.53 | Elrond | *G* |
| 20:05.06 | Morgaine | A few things in FOSS are utterly insane ... and that's one. |
| 20:06.00 | Morgaine | Fortunately, very few ;-) |
| 20:06.20 | thresh | autools is a crap |
| 20:06.24 | thresh | +t |
| 20:06.31 | thresh | but the only one crap that's working |
| 20:06.45 | Elrond | Morgaine - add priesthoods to tht list. ;) |
| 20:07.25 | Morgaine | Yup. Roll on some script kiddie with a nice autools virus, it's badly needed. Because unfortunately autotools works, which means it won't change, until forced. |
| 20:08.29 | Morgaine | Elrond: hehe. Well I can only fix hardware and software ... I'll leave fixing people to someone else ;-) |
| 20:08.30 | Elrond | I don't have script kiddies at hand. ;) |
| 20:08.54 | *** join/#openmoko disguy__147 (i=ariel@gateway/tor/x-9e492b8fb2092bd0) |
| 20:10.09 | *** join/#openmoko terrex (n=terrex@84-122-65-39.onocable.ono.com) |
| 20:10.37 | Elrond | Morgaine - I tried fixing people for 3 years. Took me another 3 years to get "normal" on thise people. |
| 20:11.04 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@9.80-202-160.nextgentel.com) |
| 20:12.10 | buz | tried at being amateur shrink, eh |
| 20:12.25 | Morgaine | Elrond: hehe |
| 20:12.49 | Elrond | "shrink"? |
| 20:13.17 | Morgaine | buz: a professional shrink is just an amateur shrink who wears a tie ;-) |
| 20:13.21 | Elrond | Morgaine - It was no fun. I had to ignore the project for those 3 years. |
| 20:13.29 | buz | and gets money |
| 20:13.37 | Morgaine | Eww |
| 20:14.12 | Elrond | Ahh, headshrinker. ;) |
| 20:14.32 | hrw | http://www.hrw.one.pl/2007/02/11/openmoko-release-day/ |
| 20:15.14 | Morgaine | Elrond: shrink == psychiatrist |
| 20:16.43 | buz | and v12, obviously |
| 20:17.10 | buz | maybe fpga could emulate V12? |
| 20:17.48 | Morgaine | Interesting that in no other country in the world do folks go to shrinks as something normal, except for USA. Are americans more sane as a result? Hard to find evidence of it ... ;-) |
| 20:18.09 | buz | shrinks are basically legal drug dealers |
| 20:18.19 | *** join/#openmoko cprf (n=rzinkov@oss-staff.rutgers.edu) |
| 20:19.05 | Morgaine | They can prescribe stuff that the ordinary doctor won't? |
| 20:19.06 | Elrond | Morgaine - hihi, yeah. |
| 20:19.08 | buz | depends on the country i think |
| 20:19.09 | buz | around here, only shrinks with MD can actually prescribe things |
| 20:19.27 | buz | they are essentially MD who specialise in psychiatry |
| 20:19.41 | buz | and then there's the psychology shrinks |
| 20:20.18 | Morgaine | Ah, but I don't mean in cases of hard physical conditions. I was referring to the more common "therapy" consulations in US. |
| 20:21.34 | *** join/#openmoko dmndru (n=diamond@assorti.komi.com) |
| 20:21.51 | Morgaine | Talking about FPGAs, what happened to all those supercomputers on the desktop we were about to see, using JIT FPGA funkiness? |
| 20:22.16 | Morgaine | People need them NOW, for Vista ;-)))) |
| 20:22.32 | Elrond | *G* |
| 20:24.54 | Morgaine | Might not actually be that bad. |
| 20:25.59 | jannu | Morgaine: might not actually be that sane either |
| 20:26.06 | buz | eh maybe the cell can do software radio umts |
| 20:26.37 | Morgaine | Yeah, was thinking the same thing, it could do a lot of hardware functions in the SPEs |
| 20:27.01 | buz | CELL phone |
| 20:27.06 | Morgaine | HAHAHAHA |
| 20:27.11 | Morgaine | Nice one buz ;-) |
| 20:27.52 | Elrond | SPE? |
| 20:28.49 | Morgaine | The independent slave processors within the Cell, 8 of them (7 in PS3) running under the control of a PPC CPU. |
| 20:28.59 | Morgaine | Fast as hell |
| 20:29.02 | *** join/#openmoko Mafia (n=Mafia@80.239.71.13) |
| 20:29.19 | *** join/#openmoko swissy (n=swissy@84-74-83-99.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 20:29.23 | swissy | counter |
| 20:29.23 | aloril | 09:30:36 (0.396 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.396 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.396 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (240) |
| 20:29.49 | LuitvD | what kind of counter is that? :P |
| 20:30.14 | buz | until the first coming |
| 20:30.14 | LuitvD | wow, that's soon |
| 20:30.18 | Morgaine | Elrond: so really the Cell is a 9-core CPU, but not symmetric: 1+8 |
| 20:30.30 | buz | the second coming will be in approximately 1 year |
| 20:30.32 | LuitvD | 7 months for mass market... that's quick |
| 20:30.43 | Morgaine | And not SMP, as the 8 SPEs are totally disjoint except for DMA-based comms |
| 20:31.02 | Morgaine | Which is why they run like blue light |
| 20:31.03 | buz | and kinda dumb, them SPE |
| 20:31.04 | LuitvD | buz: second coming is the new (second) device? or the first revision? |
| 20:31.16 | buz | device V2 |
| 20:31.28 | buz | (obviously people arent getting the joke) |
| 20:31.40 | LuitvD | which one? :P |
| 20:31.54 | ynezz | counter is in UTC? |
| 20:32.17 | LuitvD | ynezz: counter is countDOWN |
| 20:32.20 | LuitvD | universal |
| 20:32.23 | LuitvD | ;) |
| 20:32.32 | Morgaine | Yes, the SPEs are much more primitive than ordinary CPUs, but with vector ops and extreme speed, they make good slaves to the host PPC thingie. |
| 20:32.56 | *** join/#openmoko clheiny (n=cheiny@vsat-148-64-38-161.c050.t7.mrt.starband.net) |
| 20:33.05 | Morgaine | Basically the Cell is an Amiga for the new millennium :-) |
| 20:33.26 | _-InFeRnO-_ | ;0 |
| 20:33.45 | Morgaine | Water-cooled phone ... |
| 20:33.46 | nbd | with a battery lifetime of almost 3 minutes (!) |
| 20:33.52 | *** part/#openmoko dmndru (n=diamond@assorti.komi.com) |
| 20:33.56 | Morgaine | Hehe |
| 20:33.56 | buz | LuitvD: the thing about second coming |
| 20:34.33 | _-InFeRnO-_ | i think this is a fairly battery efficient CPU |
| 20:34.38 | thresh | anyone compiled apt for openmoko? :) |
| 20:34.42 | _-InFeRnO-_ | ;000 |
| 20:35.07 | buz | maybe you could run a steam turbine on the water cooling for the core2quad |
| 20:35.31 | _-InFeRnO-_ | no |
| 20:36.08 | _-InFeRnO-_ | i would need a nuclear reactor only for the battery and cooling power supply |
| 20:36.31 | thresh | just get some fallout ones |
| 20:36.33 | Morgaine | That was why the Amiga was ahead of Windows for a decade. MS was in denial about consumers needing multitasking ... meanwhile the Amiga's wee 68k was happily controlling a fleet of independent special-purpose chips that make the thing fly. |
| 20:36.49 | *** join/#openmoko PaK (n=kondzior@fbk218.internetdsl.tpnet.pl) |
| 20:37.18 | PaK | no free phones today ? |
| 20:37.19 | buz | only these days its cheaper to buy cpu power than programming brain power |
| 20:38.43 | _-InFeRnO-_ | OMG! I wonder if the final version of the phone will be free too. |
| 20:39.09 | _-InFeRnO-_ | i would like free smartphone, y'know |
| 20:39.36 | buz | i would like free $mostthing |
| 20:40.08 | Morgaine | buz: yeah, today the problem is the big one, finally coming home to roost: management of complexity. The Amiga's benefits wouldn't help today with that, and nor will the SPEs. But there's a 2ndary problem because of multimedia, and SPEs do help with that. |
| 20:40.20 | hrw | cu |
| 20:40.35 | Morgaine | cya hrw |
| 20:40.45 | buz | i rather get general purpose hardware |
| 20:41.32 | Morgaine | SPEs are general purpose multimedia hardware :-) |
| 20:41.51 | buz | in some sense, so is a GF8800 |
| 20:42.19 | Morgaine | With a bit of luck though, Cell v2 will have at least 2 PPC cores though, plus the 8 SPEs. |
| 20:42.21 | _-InFeRnO-_ | if the hardware can run all of my pr0n, it's fine |
| 20:42.33 | _-InFeRnO-_ | ;P |
| 20:43.00 | Morgaine | buz: yes!!!! The G80 is a great general multimedia processing chip!!! |
| 20:43.10 | Morgaine | Very very nice |
| 20:43.18 | Morgaine | My next card will be G80-based. |
| 20:43.30 | *** part/#openmoko PaK (n=kondzior@fbk218.internetdsl.tpnet.pl) |
| 20:43.41 | buz | actually i think i rather go coherent HT if i can |
| 20:43.42 | LuitvD | not R600 based? |
| 20:44.18 | LuitvD | Morgaine: have you seen the specs of the coming R600? They're ridiculous |
| 20:44.58 | buz | 270W |
| 20:45.04 | LuitvD | the card will be 32 centimeters long |
| 20:45.05 | LuitvD | 270Watts |
| 20:45.07 | buz | "Mine's longer" |
| 20:45.07 | Morgaine | LuitvD: nope, not seen them, but saw the ridiculous physical size. |
| 20:45.07 | LuitvD | I bet it weighs at least half a kilogram too |
| 20:45.13 | LuitvD | Morgaine: that's what I meant :P |
| 20:45.48 | Morgaine | LuitvD: but in any case, it's irrelevant for me, as ATI couldn't understand an OpenGL spec if it were stuffed up their nose. |
| 20:46.00 | LuitvD | :P |
| 20:46.01 | LuitvD | true |
| 20:46.18 | Morgaine | I just hope they don't take AMD down after the merger. |
| 20:46.23 | LuitvD | though openGL on windows vista is awkwardly slow... |
| 20:46.37 | LuitvD | even on a GF8800, which is strange |
| 20:46.52 | Morgaine | LuitvD: nVidia doesn't have an official driver for Vista yet, just betas |
| 20:47.04 | LuitvD | is that true? |
| 20:47.12 | Elrond | tihi. |
| 20:47.18 | Morgaine | I read it yesterday, and pretty sure that was current info |
| 20:47.30 | LuitvD | thought the forceware 97 drivers were finals... |
| 20:48.04 | LuitvD | anyways, blame DX10 ;) |
| 20:48.11 | Morgaine | You could be right. I'll check later. Don't have a card yet, and will never run Vista if I can help it, so it was just background reading. |
| 20:48.13 | buz | i blame nvidia for not fixing aiglx |
| 20:48.16 | Elrond | What current gfx cards have usable FOSS linux drivers? |
| 20:48.23 | buz | intel |
| 20:48.40 | Morgaine | 2D, lots. The problem is 3D |
| 20:49.08 | Elrond | buz - Yeah, I have an intel one at work, like it. :) |
| 20:49.10 | LuitvD | Morgaine: don't try vista, it's ugly, user-unfriendly (geed-unfriendly i mean) and is just bad... evil... microsoft |
| 20:49.39 | buz | i hope nouveau succeed |
| 20:49.43 | Morgaine | LuitvD: don't intend to, lol. I regard my machinery as working for me ... not for some third party. |
| 20:49.46 | buz | open source nvidia drivers would be cool |
| 20:49.46 | Elrond | I'd be surprised to see Morgaine use windows a lot anyway. |
| 20:50.50 | LuitvD | buz: you should try to tell nvidia that... you sound convincing ;) |
| 20:50.59 | mjr | yeah, Intel is the way to go for free drivers. Radeon up to x850 is okay, but no thanks to Ati; still, I bought one for my AMD system (Intel not selling separate cards an issue here...) |
| 20:51.14 | Morgaine | Elrond: I do have a Window box, but it's a games console and nothing else. I would never do anything productive on Windows. In any case, it's mutual, Windows hates me and will shaft me at every opportunity. ;-) |
| 20:51.32 | buz | can radeon express run with OSS drivers? |
| 20:51.51 | mjr | buz, oh yeah, at least 200M express doesn't |
| 20:52.00 | buz | how about 1150 |
| 20:52.05 | mjr | not sure |
| 20:52.08 | LuitvD | Morgaine: then you should definately not try vista... it makes an 8800 preform like a 7900 :P seriously |
| 20:52.28 | LuitvD | 8800 on Vista == 7900 on Win XP... |
| 20:52.43 | LuitvD | (for most games, on the current drivers) |
| 20:52.52 | Morgaine | Matrox has open source drivers too, Matrox G550 PCIe works fine, and it's the only non-16-lane PCIe card in existence. |
| 20:53.01 | buz | and sloooooow |
| 20:53.09 | buz | it was slow when it was released years ago |
| 20:53.15 | thresh | intel makes best cards |
| 20:53.25 | LuitvD | bullsh* |
| 20:53.29 | buz | wee bit hard to use them with amd cpu tho |
| 20:53.39 | thresh | who needs games anyway.. children |
| 20:53.48 | thresh | ;) |
| 20:53.52 | buz | i need beryl |
| 20:53.53 | LuitvD | which I am :) |
| 20:53.56 | buz | but thanks to nvidia i cant use it |
| 20:54.00 | Morgaine | I've never even seen an Intel graphics card, only integrated chips, and they're awful. |
| 20:54.10 | thresh | buz: works fine here on i855GM, i945, i965. |
| 20:54.14 | LuitvD | intel is actually developing one... |
| 20:54.16 | buz | yeah i know |
| 20:54.35 | buz | but my laptop has i855 with a gf5200 |
| 20:54.43 | buz | which at the time was much better supported by linux anyway |
| 20:54.50 | thresh | Morgaine: Compared to blobby crappy closedsource drivers ... |
| 20:55.00 | Morgaine | LuitvD: is Intel developing a card with hardware shaders onboard? |
| 20:55.06 | buz | supposedly |
| 20:55.07 | thresh | Morgaine: i965 |
| 20:55.21 | Morgaine | thresh: interesting |
| 20:55.25 | buz | are there i965 notebooks? |
| 20:55.29 | thresh | no idea |
| 20:55.36 | thresh | only seen desktop one |
| 20:55.46 | buz | for desktops, its not an issue |
| 20:55.48 | LuitvD | Morgaine: no, it's developing some strange sort of decahexacore (16 core ...) processor on a PCI-e card :P |
| 20:55.54 | Morgaine | And the 3D driver is in Xorg? |
| 20:56.00 | thresh | yes |
| 20:56.07 | thresh | in mesa |
| 20:56.22 | Morgaine | I'll look out for it. |
| 20:56.25 | thresh | ut2004 worked on i965 |
| 20:56.34 | thresh | quake4 had some glitches last time we trie |
| 20:56.34 | thresh | d |
| 20:56.57 | thresh | basically, it's something near radeon9200+ |
| 20:57.04 | thresh | like gf4ti4200~4400 |
| 20:57.16 | Morgaine | LuitvD: I tried to pronounce "decahexacore" ... you now owe me 3 teeth. |
| 20:57.24 | thresh | so the guys did a great work |
| 20:57.32 | thresh | especially in writing good drivers |
| 20:57.49 | buz | mhh isnt radeon express 200 supposed to be about r9200 level? |
| 20:58.18 | mjr | impressive enough for me, but would be nicer to have the manufacturer's support... |
| 20:58.19 | LuitvD | Morgaine: then you shouldn't try to learn latin :P |
| 20:58.52 | thresh | mjr: intel is developing drivers inside xorg/mesa, i think |
| 20:59.04 | mjr | thresh, yes I know |
| 20:59.15 | Morgaine | LuitvD: hehe. I speak the language of beaches though, Spanish, so Latin should be OK. |
| 20:59.16 | thresh | so it really is a manufacturer support |
| 20:59.34 | thresh | too bad stupid nvidia and especially ati guys do not care about it |
| 21:00.11 | thresh | i cant remember a xorg release that resulted in non-working fglrx |
| 21:00.11 | Morgaine | thresh: yeah, very annoying |
| 21:00.33 | thresh | err, in working fglrx when released |
| 21:00.39 | Elrond | I have a 945G/GZ :) |
| 21:00.58 | mjr | Just that for intel, you need an intel mb and intel cpu, so basically one would need a whole new system if happens to have AMD. Plus, apparently there are problems with the output plugin cards, whatever they were; I'd need preferrably 2xDVI output, but DVI+VGA okay... |
| 21:01.30 | thresh | there are dvis in recent i9xx |
| 21:01.32 | *** join/#openmoko stryderjzw (n=stryderj@216.232.85.137) |
| 21:01.48 | greghunt | i have a 945g with DVI |
| 21:02.06 | greghunt | though you can only use 1 output |
| 21:02.22 | Morgaine | Matrox G550 PCIe's come with dual DVI plus 2 dongles to convert to VGA if needed. |
| 21:02.25 | mjr | still, it's my impression that for dual-head with intel you'd need one of those funky interface cards? |
| 21:02.42 | thresh | eh? Xinerama should work fine. |
| 21:03.23 | mjr | apparently an ADD card or something... |
| 21:03.46 | mjr | thresh, the question is if they have two outputs nowadays without addons whose support situation is unclear |
| 21:04.07 | thresh | no idea, tbh, i've problems with dual output on 855. |
| 21:04.09 | mjr | if so, that's nice, but not sure |
| 21:04.45 | Elrond | Ms 945 only has one output in VGA/DVI. |
| 21:05.11 | Elrond | I had to kick dell for three weeks to get the DVI-"card" ;) |
| 21:06.06 | Elrond | s/Ms/My |
| 21:09.39 | koen | *.openmoko.org still 401? |
| 21:10.57 | Elrond | koen - Yep. |
| 21:11.02 | koen | drat |
| 21:11.15 | Elrond | Or does the projects-login work on the other sites? ;o) |
| 21:11.24 | koen | nope |
| 21:12.09 | Elrond | <-- gets food. :-) |
| 21:12.10 | koen | buz: I can do 4MPix/8fps if needed |
| 21:12.18 | buz | (this whole unboxing site stuff is kinda weird) |
| 21:12.42 | SpeedEvil | It's a walkthrough of the difficult parcel opening process. |
| 21:13.00 | buz | well if those are sandisk products, opening REALLY is difficult |
| 21:17.49 | Morgaine | Does anyone know the product name of the Cell processor? having trouble finding a proper device datasheet ... |
| 21:20.26 | raynet | Morgaine: maybe Cell Broadband Engine(tm) processor |
| 21:20.50 | Morgaine | Lot of docs under that name, but no datasheet ... |
| 21:20.58 | raynet | Morgaine: are you looking for the one in PS3, or the one you can get for server? |
| 21:21.23 | Morgaine | Don't mind ... I just want to find nominal chip power consumption. |
| 21:24.37 | raynet | Morgaine: found some german paper that says 3GHz eats 30W and 4GHz 80W |
| 21:25.12 | Morgaine | Wow, that's some curve ... a gigwatt at 5GHz? ;-) |
| 21:26.05 | raynet | Morgaine: the next Cell will be at 6GHz and dissapate 98W of heat |
| 21:26.36 | Magon | why it is not used as central heating? |
| 21:26.37 | Morgaine | Aha. So basically like a desktop CPU. We won't see one in a phone ;-) |
| 21:26.58 | raynet | Morgaine: well, it might be handy at winter to keep your hand warm |
| 21:27.24 | raynet | Morgaine: but who says it needs to be clocked to 6GH? why not to 1Ghz, still would be plenty fast |
| 21:27.25 | Morgaine | However, that doesn't tally with the original purpose of Cell ... Toshiba was on the project to put it into TVs and washing machines. |
| 21:28.31 | thresh | washing machine with 9 cpus |
| 21:28.35 | thresh | What-A-Geek-Needs. |
| 21:28.49 | raynet | well, it could dry the clothes with all that heat |
| 21:28.53 | thresh | :) |
| 21:28.53 | raynet | and heat the water |
| 21:30.06 | Morgaine | 9 cores will be very downmarket soon. Commodity computer CPUs will have thousands of cores before long, because you can't scale speed but you can multiply transistor numbers easy as dies shrink. |
| 21:31.00 | raynet | probably at 4-8 cores max. then they start to add specialized cores |
| 21:31.24 | raynet | AMD would be a beast with 8 Altiveccores |
| 21:31.43 | raynet | Altivec Cores.. SSE is so lame compared to that |
| 21:31.52 | Morgaine | Nah. Remember "no computer will need more than 640K ram"? Apply to cores. We'll have thousands, in a NUMA hierarchy. |
| 21:32.08 | raynet | Morgaine: perhaps on servers |
| 21:32.24 | Morgaine | raynet: everywhere. And hundreds in your washing machine. |
| 21:32.45 | raynet | Morgaine: my washing machine will have Z80 |
| 21:32.55 | Morgaine | raynet: hehehe, retro :P |
| 21:32.59 | raynet | and even that would be overkill |
| 21:33.51 | raynet | i have a business partner who has been working with clockless cpus.. they are cool.. and fast (in theory) |
| 21:34.38 | Magon | raynet: FPGA? |
| 21:34.58 | raynet | Magon: nope |
| 21:34.59 | Morgaine | raynet: there is no such thing as an appropriate level of technology. It just advances, regardless. Your washing machine will use 1000 PetaFLOPs in due course, and that'll be the downmarket version. |
| 21:35.31 | raynet | Morgaine: well, that will take years.. my last washing machine lasted for 15years |
| 21:35.41 | Morgaine | raynet: hehe |
| 21:35.42 | *** join/#openmoko behdad (n=behdad@DN800cc407.Stanford.EDU) |
| 21:35.58 | Magon | it will exactly compute moving of cloths inside and than boost performance |
| 21:36.01 | raynet | though i dont think this new one will last that long |
| 21:36.58 | Morgaine | Magon: absolutely!!!! The washing machine will model the exact physics of every particle in the clothing and dirt and determine the best water dynamics to ensure that they separate. |
| 21:37.33 | Morgaine | 1000 PetaFLOPs will be very sub-par .... damn it, how retro. |
| 21:37.59 | raynet | i live in my own reality distortion field.. in this room where i am now working there is 9 computers. slowest one is 8Mhz MIPS cpu, then some 80486s and fastest is 2GHz Core Duo. and every one of them is fast enough for the task i'm using them for |
| 21:38.20 | Magon | mention that average car today have similar computing power as your PC |
| 21:38.29 | Morgaine | raynet: ditto. We're all museum curators ;-) |
| 21:38.50 | hadara | it's more likely that we will have clothes made out of dirt repelling nanofiber and washing machines themselves become obsolete :-) |
| 21:39.16 | raynet | Magon: humm... i think they are still advertising 100-1000 MIPS speeds on cars, that is not close to current PCs |
| 21:39.34 | raynet | and usually they aren't general purpose CPUs in cars |
| 21:39.34 | Morgaine | hadara: true enough. But not if the US administration has its way with nanotech .... although we'll have damn fine tanning sunscreen instead :-( |
| 21:40.34 | Magon | raynet: there is one or 2 general purpose CPU's, but slow ones and than special purpose |
| 21:40.58 | Morgaine | raynet: but top-end cars have a pile of CAN devices in them, one at each control point --- they're real computing clusters! |
| 21:41.01 | raynet | Magon: ah.. Navigator probably has ARM :) |
| 21:41.29 | raynet | still, waiting to run BSD on my car |
| 21:41.59 | Morgaine | raynet: just as long as it's BSD and not BSOD ... ;-) |
| 21:42.03 | *** join/#openmoko terrex (n=terrex@84-122-65-39.onocable.ono.com) |
| 21:42.03 | Magon | you cannot run on car regular OS..it need special purpose program specially tested not to fail |
| 21:42.05 | thresh | to completely ruin it? |
| 21:42.24 | raynet | Magon: humm, i recall some car model running Windows CE |
| 21:42.31 | thresh | do bsds have a compiler nowadays? |
| 21:42.40 | raynet | and when it crashed you couldn't open the doors |
| 21:42.56 | raynet | thresh: GCC? |
| 21:42.57 | Magon | raynet: but not in controling circuts, maybe as frontend |
| 21:43.06 | raynet | Magon: sure.. |
| 21:43.06 | thresh | raynet: hey, it's GNU compiler ;) |
| 21:43.42 | raynet | thresh: but it runs on BSD. so you meant BSD licensed compiler |
| 21:43.49 | raynet | wasnt there some pascal one atleast |
| 21:44.13 | Morgaine | thresh: shhhhh, don't mention that inconsistency ;-) |
| 21:45.23 | raynet | thresh: ah, there is a BSD C compiler, TenDRA |
| 21:45.35 | thresh | and it kinda works ?:) |
| 21:46.34 | Magon | building bootstrab in OE.. do you thing it will just work or will i wake up and see screen full of errors? |
| 21:47.17 | raynet | OE? |
| 21:47.55 | thresh | outlook express |
| 21:49.48 | hadara | bsd and tendra reminds me of the classic freebsd hackers lightbulb joke: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/faq/funnies.html#CHANGING-LIGHTBULBS |
| 21:49.57 | hadara | "Thirty-one to point out that the new lightbulb would shine 0.364% brighter if compiled with TenDRA (although it will have to be reshaped into a cube), and that FreeBSD should therefore switch to TenDRA instead of GCC;" |
| 21:50.25 | raynet | :) |
| 21:50.34 | *** join/#openmoko wbx_ (n=wbx@gprs-pool-1-016.eplus-online.de) |
| 21:51.34 | Morgaine | FFS: |
| 21:51.42 | Morgaine | Cell Broadband Engine Datasheet (1) |
| 21:51.43 | Morgaine | 1. Available under nondisclosure agreement from Sony, Toshiba, or IBM. |
| 21:53.42 | *** join/#openmoko lrg (n=liam@lrg.demon.co.uk) |
| 21:58.06 | *** join/#openmoko esden (n=esden@p549949BE.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 22:04.31 | *** join/#openmoko ajturner (n=ajturner@d14-69-64-67.try.wideopenwest.com) |
| 22:06.30 | Elrond | "Eleven to request a smaller lightbulb so it will fit their Tamagotchi if we ever decide to port FreeBSD to that platform;"... |
| 22:07.11 | Elrond | s/Tamagotchi/Neo1973/ |
| 22:07.16 | Elrond | ;o) |
| 22:08.29 | Morgaine | Actually, something like a Tamagochi could sell the Neo in Phase2 ;-) |
| 22:09.03 | Morgaine | A pet that knows where it is ... |
| 22:10.06 | Elrond | "Where's my neo?" -- "Wait... sms-ing your neo and asking for gps coords.... Your neo is in your left trousers pocket." ;o) |
| 22:11.04 | Morgaine | Hehe |
| 22:11.10 | Morgaine | It'll happen |
| 22:13.16 | Morgaine | And scarier ... your husband/wife will ask your Neo where you are, and discover that you're at your boy/girlfriends' place ... |
| 22:14.33 | Morgaine | At which point she detonates by Bluetooth the bomb she put in your sandwiches .... |
| 22:16.02 | Psi_ | or she sends some code that causes your neo to disable the lithium battery low volt shutdown, so it discharges below 3v and explodes in your pocket :P |
| 22:16.09 | Morgaine | Or just switches on the microphone and records your fun for the alimony proceedings. |
| 22:16.35 | Psi_ | heh |
| 22:16.37 | Morgaine | Psi_: oh, the neo will have a Sony battery? ;-) |
| 22:16.45 | Psi_ | hehe, i dunno |
| 22:17.08 | Psi_ | ive not seen any info on what battery it is |
| 22:17.10 | XorA | just pick a mistress with same name as wife, and its never gonna be admissable |
| 22:17.14 | Psi_ | other than the capacity |
| 22:17.21 | Morgaine | XorA: hehehe |
| 22:17.21 | Psi_ | 1200mAh i thin |
| 22:17.24 | Psi_ | *think |
| 22:17.54 | *** join/#openmoko MetaBookfoziS (n=sajt@3e44acce.adsl.enternet.hu) |
| 22:22.22 | SpeedEvil | 1200mAh Li-ion. |
| 22:22.33 | SpeedEvil | It's in the press release IIRC. |
| 22:22.52 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Yes. But no mention of the brand. |
| 22:22.57 | SpeedEvil | ? |
| 22:23.01 | SpeedEvil | The brand? |
| 22:23.07 | SpeedEvil | That's rather irrelevant. |
| 22:23.52 | Elrond | 23:16 <Morgaine> Psi_: oh, the neo will have a Sony battery? ;-) |
| 22:24.01 | Elrond | I read that as "sonys have issues" ;) |
| 22:24.03 | SpeedEvil | Or do you mean 'will it be available on ebay for $5? |
| 22:24.10 | SpeedEvil | Ah. |
| 22:24.19 | Psi_ | Elrond, ya, they explode alot |
| 22:24.33 | SpeedEvil | Sony have had issues recently with their cylindrical lithium batteries. |
| 22:24.58 | SpeedEvil | Metal particles inside the cells, shorting out the seperator under high levels of charge, and causing them to release all the stored energy rapidly. |
| 22:25.09 | Elrond | FAQ: "Will fic replace my neo, if the battery explodes?" ;) |
| 22:25.09 | SpeedEvil | This is not an issue with the 'flat' batteries. |
| 22:26.04 | Psi_ | Elrond, ive not heard of many cellphone batterys exploding |
| 22:26.09 | Psi_ | its mainly laptops |
| 22:26.10 | SpeedEvil | Those have seperate issues, many of which are quality control from tertiary vendors that don't do QC. |
| 22:26.30 | SpeedEvil | One person (IIRC) had his trousers catch fire due to phones. |
| 22:26.34 | Psi_ | haha |
| 22:26.35 | SpeedEvil | Well - one phone. |
| 22:26.48 | SpeedEvil | And there have been numerous reports of overheating ones. |
| 22:27.02 | SpeedEvil | Typically traced not to the cells so much, as to their packaging. |
| 22:27.19 | SpeedEvil | Lacking insulation, or proper securing of the cell in place. |
| 22:29.15 | Elrond | yikes. |
| 22:29.33 | Elrond | We need safety boxes for phones then. ;) |
| 22:29.40 | Psi_ | hopefully there is some hardware in the phone to stop you discharging the battery below min V |
| 22:30.32 | Psi_ | although, you might want to override the limiting if you were lost somewhere and needed help with a flat phone |
| 22:31.08 | SpeedEvil | It is _not_ a case of 'may catch fire' when at low voltage. |
| 22:31.24 | SpeedEvil | It's a case of 'may not recharge' |
| 22:31.26 | stefan_schmidt | counter |
| 22:31.27 | aloril | 07:28:33 (0.311 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.311 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.311 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (241) |
| 22:31.38 | stefan_schmidt | sigh |
| 22:32.21 | Psi_ | i was looking at it the other day, found a few places that said that discharge below min volts may cause damage or fire |
| 22:32.31 | *** join/#openmoko careo (n=djensen@208.71.31.193) |
| 22:32.51 | SpeedEvil | Discharge never causes problems. Discharge, then recharge may cause fires due to metallic lithium forming. |
| 22:33.02 | Psi_ | hm.. maybe thats what it meant then |
| 22:33.06 | SpeedEvil | It will certainly reduce the capacity. |
| 22:33.22 | SpeedEvil | That's why chargers typically lock out when presented with a battery of under 2.5V or os. |
| 22:33.26 | Psi_ | yeah |
| 22:33.42 | Elrond | Shouldn't the batteries themselfes have some protecting electronics in them? |
| 22:33.47 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (i=foobar@dslb-084-057-179-251.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 22:33.48 | Psi_ | some do |
| 22:33.48 | SpeedEvil | Some do. |
| 22:33.56 | Psi_ | some have a microcontroller |
| 22:34.05 | SpeedEvil | Almost no cellphone ones. |
| 22:34.16 | SpeedEvil | Microcontrollers are really only needed if you have more than one cell. |
| 22:34.23 | Psi_ | for monitoring in/out current and recording how much power is left in the battery |
| 22:34.45 | Psi_ | yeah |
| 22:34.46 | SpeedEvil | One li-ion cell is pretty simple. More requires more complex stuff. |
| 22:34.51 | Elrond | Psi_ - Ahh... that's, what all this "info-lithium" stuff is about. |
| 22:35.11 | SpeedEvil | Yes, it's not at all about protectionism... |
| 22:35.13 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 22:35.18 | Psi_ | heh |
| 22:35.34 | SpeedEvil | There are evil battery monitor chips coming out. With crypto devices in them. |
| 22:35.51 | Psi_ | all li-ion battery's have thermal protection though |
| 22:35.55 | SpeedEvil | To ensure that you can't use other brands. |
| 22:35.59 | Psi_ | disconnects load if they go overtemp |
| 22:36.03 | SpeedEvil | Most should. |
| 22:36.06 | SpeedEvil | Not all do. |
| 22:36.07 | Psi_ | hehe, should |
| 22:36.14 | Psi_ | thats pretty dangerous |
| 22:36.22 | SpeedEvil | Well - if you don't short it. |
| 22:36.33 | SpeedEvil | Or ifg you've got a fuse there, it's not bad. |
| 22:36.39 | Psi_ | true |
| 22:37.44 | Morgaine | Ah yeah, hehe, it's a popular meme now that Sony batteries explode. And as Dell laptops use them, it's happening a fair bit simply because Dell so many laptops. |
| 22:37.47 | Elrond | Oh well. crypto crap? Like with the ink in ink-droppers? |
| 22:38.04 | Morgaine | In fact, it was on Slashdot again today: " Dell Laptop Burns House Down" |
| 22:38.12 | Morgaine | http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/02/10/2143200 |
| 22:38.28 | SpeedEvil | Yes. |
| 22:38.34 | Elrond | yikes. |
| 22:38.35 | Psi_ | dell laptop explodes http://www.eglobe1.com/word/wp-content/images/PC/dell-1.JPG |
| 22:38.57 | SpeedEvil | The lithium-ion entry on wikipedia is quite good. |
| 22:39.00 | Psi_ | hm.. if that pic isnt working http://www.alrehaili.net/blog/postimages/dell_exp_laptop.jpg |
| 22:39.45 | Morgaine | In fact, didn't Alan Cox's laptop explode? Seem to remember reading that in his wife's diary. |
| 22:40.51 | Morgaine | Telsa --> |
| 22:40.56 | Morgaine | http://zeniv.linux.org.uk/~telsa/boom/ |
| 22:41.49 | SpeedEvil | I once made an small IC generator to fit in my laptops floppy bay. |
| 22:42.03 | SpeedEvil | It actually worked, and charged the batteries. |
| 22:42.18 | SpeedEvil | I came to my senses before actually putting it in the laptop though. |
| 22:42.21 | Elrond | IC generator? |
| 22:42.37 | Morgaine | Internal Combustion |
| 22:42.37 | SpeedEvil | Internal Combustion. Very small model aircraft 2-stroke. |
| 22:42.44 | SpeedEvil | Small motor. |
| 22:42.47 | SpeedEvil | Glow fuel. |
| 22:42.48 | *** join/#openmoko Eblis (n=Miranda@86.34.3.192) |
| 22:42.50 | Eblis | counter |
| 22:42.50 | aloril | 07:17:09 (0.304 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.304 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.304 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (242) |
| 22:43.15 | SpeedEvil | Noisier than fuel cells :) |
| 22:43.46 | Psi_ | i hope we get those nanoparticle capacitors soon, they sound like they should be great |
| 22:44.16 | Morgaine | Yeah, ultracaps |
| 22:44.22 | SpeedEvil | Show me the engineering samples. |
| 22:44.32 | SpeedEvil | (to paraphrase...) |
| 22:45.13 | Psi_ | battery's are badly lagging behind in the technology scene |
| 22:45.54 | Psi_ | should be able to run laptops all day at 100% cpu :) |
| 22:45.57 | SpeedEvil | Well - not really. |
| 22:46.05 | Morgaine | Nanoscale junk sucks anyway. Should do proper MNT, then you can store gigawatt-hours in tiny rotors. |
| 22:46.23 | SpeedEvil | processor ICs are what, 40 years old? |
| 22:46.32 | SpeedEvil | Batteries are closer to 200. |
| 22:46.44 | SpeedEvil | Err - no. |
| 22:46.58 | SpeedEvil | Flywheel energy storage is comparable to chemical energy storage. |
| 22:47.16 | SpeedEvil | Because both of them - one way or another - is storing energy in stretched bonds. |
| 22:49.27 | Morgaine | While that's true in some sense, chemical "storage" doesn't store to anywhere near the breaking point, because nobody sane stores energy by synthesizing TNT ... ;-) |
| 22:49.55 | *** join/#openmoko n (n=n@84.52.177.157) |
| 22:50.01 | SpeedEvil | No, however, burning fuel means that you get a large part of the reactants 'free'. |
| 22:50.08 | SpeedEvil | And that pretty much means that it canccels out. |
| 22:50.24 | SpeedEvil | You may gain a factor of a couple - with absolutely optimistic assumptions. |
| 22:50.32 | SpeedEvil | But it's not a whole lot. |
| 22:50.50 | SpeedEvil | The big advantages are rechargability indefinately. |
| 22:50.54 | SpeedEvil | And speed of output. |
| 22:50.54 | thedaniel | counter |
| 22:50.54 | aloril | 07:09:05 (0.298 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.298 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.298 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (243) |
| 22:51.05 | Morgaine | Actually, you're out by a small factor ... about 10^10 ;-))) |
| 22:51.08 | SpeedEvil | The disadvantages are what happens to the power in an accident. |
| 22:51.16 | SpeedEvil | Actually, I'm not. |
| 22:51.25 | *** join/#openmoko rwhitby (n=rwhitby@nslu2-linux/rwhitby) |
| 22:51.51 | SpeedEvil | Do you really want to go into the maximum energy stored in a single walled nanotube optimal rotor? |
| 22:52.44 | SpeedEvil | Consider if it was 10^10. That would mean the temperature on failure would be some 10^8 C or so. |
| 22:52.59 | SpeedEvil | Now, consider that carbon breaks under thermal strains somewhere around 5000C. |
| 22:54.31 | SpeedEvil | Or going to bed early. |
| 22:54.48 | Psi_ | do you really think the source will be out at exactly 1second into the 11th? |
| 22:55.03 | Psi_ | it could take 23.99 hours after that and it would still be the 11th |
| 22:56.06 | Morgaine | SpeedEvil: you're not talking about nanotech rotors at all, lol, but about macroscale ones using single-crystal rotors. |
| 22:56.23 | SpeedEvil | Right. Now explain why nanotech is better. |
| 22:56.36 | SpeedEvil | As you decrease the size of a rotor, you decrease its mass. |
| 22:56.46 | Morgaine | Because you can create trillions of the buggers? |
| 22:56.57 | SpeedEvil | It doesn't matter. |
| 22:57.23 | Psi_ | no, you get some nanorobots to build you a ZPM, problem solved |
| 22:57.36 | SpeedEvil | Do the numbers. You get the same energy stored in 1Kg rotor stressed to breaking as 1000 1g rotors, or 1 milion .001g rotors. |
| 22:57.38 | Psi_ | heh |
| 22:58.42 | LuitvD | counter |
| 22:58.42 | aloril | 07:01:17 (0.293 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.293 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.293 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (244) |
| 22:58.55 | LuitvD | 7 hours :) |
| 22:59.01 | SpeedEvil | And pure material - of the strongest stuff you can make is best. Adding mass to the ends made of other stuff does nothing to the energy storage. |
| 22:59.14 | Morgaine | I'll look it up in Nanosystems. I'm pretty sure Drexler treated exactly that issue in his scaling sections, and concluded the exact opposite. |
| 22:59.18 | Psi_ | 7 hours until the 24hour window |
| 22:59.37 | SpeedEvil | Consider this. |
| 22:59.54 | SpeedEvil | Where is the energy stored in a spinning flywheel? |
| 23:00.05 | SpeedEvil | Mechanically, not kinetically. |
| 23:00.20 | SpeedEvil | It's stored in the stretched fibres or whatever in that flywheel. |
| 23:00.25 | SpeedEvil | Them acting as a spring. |
| 23:00.37 | aevin | that counter isn't exactly calibrated for .tw time zone. |
| 23:00.37 | SpeedEvil | You can only pull so hard on that spring, before it breaks. |
| 23:00.54 | aevin | but i don't expect them to work on sundays either :) |
| 23:01.04 | SpeedEvil | Double the mass, and you double the number of springs - you can pull twice as hard before it breaks. |
| 23:01.05 | Morgaine | Angular momentum, usual stuff, nothing different in nanotech rotors, they just rotate at terrahertz rates. |
| 23:01.19 | aevin | even if they may have been doing that the last couple of weeks (i dunno). |
| 23:01.21 | SpeedEvil | No, where is it stored in the structure. |
| 23:01.23 | LuitvD | aevin: I think it's GMT |
| 23:02.14 | aevin | LuitvD: then it isn't targetting 0:00 am. |
| 23:02.18 | Morgaine | It's inertial like all rotors. You seem to think it';s stored in the stretch of bonds, but it's not. It's stored in the angular momentum of the rotors. |
| 23:02.31 | SpeedEvil | That's just another way of looking at it. |
| 23:02.31 | LuitvD | aevin: isn't it? |
| 23:02.45 | Morgaine | SpeedEvil: no it is not another way of looking at it. |
| 23:02.49 | LuitvD | It's midnight now... right here... GMT +1 |
| 23:03.10 | aevin | LuitvD: GMT is 23 pm on 2007-02-11 atm :) |
| 23:03.12 | *** join/#openmoko grgehunt (n=greg@88-108-72-56.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) |
| 23:03.23 | LuitvD | yes |
| 23:03.48 | SpeedEvil | The energy stored in the angular momentum is exactly equal to the energy that it would take to strain the flywheel out to it's 'stretched' dimension (when spinning at a given speed) while it is not spinning. |
| 23:03.53 | LuitvD | aevin: oh sorry, it's targeting 12:00am then I think |
| 23:03.56 | LuitvD | hmm |
| 23:05.53 | rboehme | I wonder how far in advance they have to take preorders in order to organize shipping? |
| 23:06.14 | Morgaine | SpeedEvil: lol. Sounds like you've invented a new theory there. The only thing that the bond strength limits is the maximum speed of rotation. For any given rotation speed, the energy stored is proportional to rotor mass, and nothing else. You've got it completely wrong. |
| 23:06.16 | SpeedEvil | Have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_energy_storage |
| 23:06.48 | SpeedEvil | For a given rotation speed, the eergy stored is proportional to the mass distribution, yes. |
| 23:07.27 | aevin | LuitvD: the counter will timeout in 7 hrs, which results in 7am (now)+7hrs = 2pm in taiwan ( or 6am GMT) on the 12 feb. |
| 23:08.29 | aevin | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:09.21 | LuitvD | :P |
| 23:12.49 | *** join/#openmoko rwhitby (n=rwhitby@nslu2-linux/rwhitby) |
| 23:16.55 | aevin | in case someone didn't know, projects.openmoko.org is open for the public :) go register your new project |
| 23:25.05 | LuitvD | all the M's going out? |
| 23:25.15 | LuitvD | wait... |
| 23:25.35 | LuitvD | then I'm late |
| 23:25.42 | fluffs | right, goodnight all |
| 23:25.44 | LuitvD | should be before the M... |
| 23:25.46 | LuitvD | :P |
| 23:25.52 | LuitvD | going to sleep too |
| 23:25.58 | LuitvD | sleep well everyone |
| 23:30.58 | SuN | "If you ended up on this website before Feb 11, 2007, then you basically found an "undocumented feature"." |
| 23:31.00 | SuN | :D |
| 23:32.44 | Elrond | SuN - Yeah. ;) |
| 23:33.34 | SpeedEvil | Hmm. |
| 23:33.39 | Elrond | I wonder, wether the screenshots at http://www.openmoko.com/press/index.html#screenshots are still close to reality. ;) |
| 23:33.49 | aevin | stributions (e.g. DISTRO=openslug, |
| 23:33.57 | aevin | argh. paste error :) |
| 23:34.01 | SpeedEvil | d-up = e |
| 23:34.06 | SpeedEvil | d-down = c |
| 23:34.24 | SpeedEvil | Prolly not very usable. |
| 23:34.37 | aevin | SpeedEvil: will you need three thumbs? ;-) |
| 23:35.09 | SpeedEvil | I mean basically keys that can tell which direction you push them in. |
| 23:35.16 | aevin | ah. |
| 23:35.33 | SpeedEvil | So straight down, you get one result, off to the side another. |
| 23:37.48 | grgehunt | like the ergonomic keyboards? |
| 23:38.00 | SpeedEvil | o - not really. |
| 23:38.02 | SpeedEvil | No |
| 23:38.18 | SpeedEvil | One line of 8 keys. |
| 23:38.42 | grgehunt | i find that my preferred method of writing a lot of text on my P900 is using the keypad + predictive text |
| 23:38.47 | rwhitby | aevin: openslug's not gonna work on this phone ;-) |
| 23:39.02 | grgehunt | handwriting + stylus hurts your hand after a while |
| 23:39.07 | SpeedEvil | Yeah. |
| 23:39.27 | grgehunt | and now i use my fingers since i lost all my styluses :/ |
| 23:39.28 | SuN | THe preferred method on my E680 is the finger pad, but it only works for searching contacts, not for SMS... for whatever reason. |
| 23:39.29 | SpeedEvil | I think part of the problem is we've gotten out of the habit. |
| 23:39.53 | SpeedEvil | I used to have not much problem doing a page of text in school. |
| 23:39.53 | grgehunt | i once wrote a large blog entry on my phone... |
| 23:40.00 | grgehunt | took me a few days and my had hurt |
| 23:40.09 | grgehunt | plus it had lots of interesting typos :) |
| 23:40.14 | Elrond | Bad news.... |
| 23:40.15 | Elrond | http://planet.openmoko.org/ |
| 23:40.25 | SpeedEvil | Now, in addition to my terrible writing getting worse, it's much slower. |
| 23:40.32 | SpeedEvil | As I very rarely do it. |
| 23:40.33 | Elrond | At least, I read that as bad news. |
| 23:41.03 | grgehunt | i found handwriting software improved my writing, or at least changed it |
| 23:41.17 | aevin | rwhitby: i know. i was just reading your post to the community mailinglist about setup of OE on CentOS. and I have this nasty habit of marking the text with the mouse cursor while reading, and thus it got copied. |
| 23:41.27 | grgehunt | i find myself writing "t"'s in one stroke |
| 23:42.18 | rwhitby | aevin: yeah, I have no problem with OE on CentOS, at least for the distros I'm building regularly (which are SlugOS and Angstrom) |
| 23:42.32 | Elrond | Morgaine - Reading http://planet.openmoko.org/ tells me, that we can go to bed and sleep another few days. ;o) |
| 23:44.36 | aevin | good. i thought of installing the necessary OE build environment now. i don't think there'll be much hassle after upgrading my ubuntu to edgy. |
| 23:45.29 | *** join/#openmoko ENd__ (i=user@r236058158.resnet.cornell.edu) |
| 23:55.13 | *** join/#openmoko mjm (n=mjm@74.93.24.218) |
| 23:55.40 | mjm | i was just reading up on this phone... |
| 23:55.55 | mjm | so i can actually write my own apps for this phone? |
| 23:55.58 | SpeedEvil | yes. |
| 23:56.06 | SpeedEvil | It's a standard linux system. |
| 23:56.10 | SpeedEvil | Though rather small. |
| 23:56.19 | SpeedEvil | And with only a touchscreen for input. |
| 23:56.25 | *** join/#openmoko jannu (n=jannu@hoas-fe34dd00-216.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 23:56.39 | SpeedEvil | You can compile and run xlander, or whatever on it. |
| 23:57.08 | mjm | si it available yet? i see limited availability 2-11-07. where is it available? |
| 23:57.11 | mjm | any idea? |
| 23:57.24 | SpeedEvil | The website - $350 |
| 23:57.29 | SpeedEvil | In a month. |
| 23:57.39 | mjm | you mean openmoko.com? |
| 23:57.43 | SpeedEvil | You have to have got one free to develop on to get it sooner. |
| 23:57.48 | SpeedEvil | yes. |
| 23:58.50 | mjm | what carriers? |
| 23:58.51 | SpeedEvil | In 7 months, it should - hopefully - be hitting a local phone shop near you. |
| 23:58.51 | SpeedEvil | It's got no SIM. |
| 23:58.51 | SpeedEvil | You put in your GSM sim, and it works. |
| 23:59.05 | mjm | hmmm |
| 23:59.22 | SpeedEvil | Works over most of the world. |
