| 00:03.56 | Elrond | Night people. |
| 00:04.02 | SuN | G'night |
| 00:04.35 | SuN | LittleIdiot: if you have a network that more or less covers say, your home, it's an interesting way to turn your cellphone into a VOIP handset. |
| 00:06.24 | LittleIdiot | i thought about 3 other locations i'll put some. after all this is way cheaper than subscribing to a cellphone flatrate plan |
| 00:06.45 | LittleIdiot | ...actually pays after <6 months |
| 00:06.52 | SpeedEvil | Annoying that the range will only be 10 metres or so. |
| 00:07.04 | SuN | Yeah |
| 00:07.05 | LittleIdiot | uhm, isn't it class 1? |
| 00:07.14 | SpeedEvil | AIUI, no. |
| 00:07.33 | SpeedEvil | Or at least the general consensus last time was probably not. |
| 00:07.53 | SpeedEvil | Probably wise to wait a few days for reports. |
| 00:08.14 | SpeedEvil | Weekish till phones hit people. |
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| 00:38.00 | thedaniel | counter |
| 00:38.00 | aloril | 4 days 05:21:59 (4.224 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 4 days (32.224 days) for devices for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 4 days (216.224 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
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| 00:46.24 | *** join/#openmoko emacsen (n=serge@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/emacsen) |
| 00:47.24 | emacsen | so, on the 11th, they send some of you all a phone. when can the rest of us get one? |
| 00:47.32 | SpeedEvil | a month on. |
| 00:47.38 | SpeedEvil | For $350 |
| 00:47.53 | SpeedEvil | Then 6 months on is the general public. |
| 00:48.04 | emacsen | yeah I knew the price, I'd never heard the date |
| 00:48.17 | SpeedEvil | The price for the general release is AIUI not set. |
| 00:48.19 | emacsen | All I know is I want Emacs on my phone :) |
| 00:48.35 | emacsen | and it should be possible, damnit :) |
| 00:48.37 | SpeedEvil | Emacs on a device with no keyboard... |
| 00:48.45 | emacsen | SpeedEvil, sure. why not? |
| 00:48.52 | SpeedEvil | No reason. |
| 00:49.15 | emacsen | SpeedEvil, there's toolbar, there's mouse, there's gestures |
| 00:49.30 | rep | :) |
| 00:50.28 | rep | i can't imagine using vi on my phone... this is... weird.. but a dream for sure |
| 00:50.43 | leventhal | vi on the phone isn't so bad |
| 00:51.17 | emacsen | it's not the editor I want, it's Gnus and BBDB and Planner and Diary |
| 00:51.20 | leventhal | Though gprs has lousy latency so it is best to send packets line by line rather than character by character.. usually ssh compression is good enough |
| 00:51.22 | rep | hacking away and compiling stuff while sitting in a train - just with my phone. this will be truely a perfect world |
| 00:51.35 | SpeedEvil | Prolly want a keyboard. |
| 00:51.53 | SpeedEvil | And a 1.8" screen is a little small. |
| 00:52.04 | emacsen | for text? That's my big question |
| 00:52.18 | emacsen | Trust me, keyboard won't be needed... screen may be an issue... maybe |
| 00:52.31 | SpeedEvil | 2.8 |
| 00:52.40 | emacsen | Yeah I know the size... |
| 00:52.46 | emacsen | and the resolution |
| 00:52.50 | maydaytx | bring a big ass usb keyboard wherever you go |
| 00:52.55 | emacsen | that doesn't tell me how well it'll work :) |
| 00:53.17 | emacsen | I mean, if there's no good way to look at text, why get the phone at all? |
| 00:53.28 | SpeedEvil | Take a 480*640 window on your screen. Now back off till you get to the equivalent of 300DPI |
| 00:53.50 | SpeedEvil | 80*25 sort of works for me at 20cm range. |
| 00:54.01 | SpeedEvil | (experiments with paper) |
| 00:54.11 | rep | can't see a thing... but that's because i really need to get new glasses i think... |
| 01:02.17 | emacsen | thumbstick? |
| 01:02.43 | SpeedEvil | Like a little joystick, to move mouse pointer. |
| 01:03.20 | SpeedEvil | for when you want to point to more things than fingers alone will comfortably do |
| 01:03.53 | emacsen | how would you do that with a screen? |
| 01:04.24 | SuN | A rotary dial that emulates a classic phone would be particularly nice. |
| 01:04.44 | emacsen | SuN, how old are you? |
| 01:04.57 | SuN | 24. why? :) |
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| 01:05.06 | emacsen | Because I'm 28 and I hardly remember those |
| 01:05.12 | SpeedEvil | Imagine a 1.5*1.5cm patch in the corner of the screen. |
| 01:05.32 | SpeedEvil | Now, move your finger to one edge of this patch, and the pointer moves that way. |
| 01:05.35 | emacsen | ah |
| 01:05.41 | SpeedEvil | and keeps moving till you center it. |
| 01:05.46 | SpeedEvil | or leave it alone. |
| 01:05.48 | SuN | I probably haven't seen one in ten years, but I clearly remember them. |
| 01:05.50 | emacsen | that's an interesting idea, but when your whole screen can be touched, why do you want that? |
| 01:05.52 | SpeedEvil | tap for click where it is. |
| 01:06.10 | SpeedEvil | Because if tapping with finger, the finger covers _lots_ of stuff. |
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| 01:06.40 | emacsen | well, there's a lot to be said for this kind of experimentation |
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| 01:26.04 | aevin | emacsen: that type of touchpad/joystick could be useful for games etc when you don't want to block the view with your fingers. |
| 01:26.26 | aevin | like an analog/d-pad |
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| 01:34.52 | Morgreet | Well, if they put 3 accelerometers in v2, we can use it as a Wiimote ;-) |
| 01:35.03 | Clint | eep |
| 01:36.09 | Morgreet | Wave a light sabre at your enemy, then blast them with GSM radiation .... |
| 01:36.11 | Morgreet | :P |
| 01:36.27 | SpeedEvil | 3 accels and IR camera |
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| 01:37.05 | Morgreet | Hey, it's been a while since the last v2 wishlist, time for another. :P |
| 01:37.09 | SpeedEvil | You can't get orientation from accell - reliably. |
| 01:37.25 | Morgreet | wifi, 3 accels, camera ... what else? |
| 01:37.37 | Morgreet | Powered USB |
| 01:38.03 | Morgreet | 3G or EDGE |
| 01:38.59 | Morgreet | A tiny bit of 3D graphics acceleration, like on the Axim. |
| 01:39.21 | leventhal | bottle opener |
| 01:39.43 | cbpage | direct brain interface |
| 01:39.45 | Morgreet | A Hall device compass, so that it knows orientation without movement. |
| 01:39.46 | SpeedEvil | You need gyros, to do much interesting 'wave it around' stuff. |
| 01:40.16 | SpeedEvil | 3 chip gyros are not horribly expensive or large. |
| 01:40.40 | SpeedEvil | http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/ideas/DistanceMeasuring?highlight=%28OpenMokoIdeasWithAccelerometer%29 |
| 01:40.46 | Morgreet | None of those things are expensive, apart from 3G |
| 01:40.54 | SpeedEvil | 3G would be nice. |
| 01:41.10 | SpeedEvil | I want a thumbstick - ideally analog. |
| 01:41.21 | leventhal | also cool but not really useful at all: easily controllable LEDs down the side |
| 01:41.23 | Morgreet | Oh yeah, good point, many more buttons. |
| 01:41.50 | SpeedEvil | I mentioned an OLED display with buttons on top. |
| 01:41.52 | leventhal | cause this sort of stuff is fun and i've occasionally wanted a big bright sign to stick out in a crowd: http://wearcam.org/ece385/pushbroom2006/imgp2362c.jpg |
| 01:41.54 | SpeedEvil | On the mailing list. |
| 01:42.14 | Morgreet | Oh, and FIC to produce a credit-card size Bluetooth keyboard, at half the price of the Freedom one. |
| 01:42.17 | SpeedEvil | Oh - the wave it around. |
| 01:42.21 | SpeedEvil | Yeah. |
| 01:43.14 | SpeedEvil | And I want the next version to go from resistive - SAW touchscreen, with a diamond coated glass. |
| 01:44.00 | SpeedEvil | Which isn't actually _horribly_ expensive - based on prices of grocery scanner windows. |
| 01:44.48 | jiffyjeff | Is 3/11 still the date for the expected developer launch? |
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| 01:48.43 | Morgreet | That's it for the wishlist? Eww |
| 01:49.47 | Morgreet | Oh, I'm changing "wifi" to "wifi with mesh" |
| 01:49.52 | SpeedEvil | Gotta keep it realistic. |
| 01:50.19 | SpeedEvil | Wind-up charger. |
| 01:50.20 | Morgreet | So far very cheap ... we're not being adventurous enough :P |
| 01:50.40 | SpeedEvil | Though that's more a seperate item. |
| 01:51.00 | Clint | zigbee! |
| 01:51.16 | Morgreet | Accessories are fine too, like the CC keyboard |
| 01:51.47 | Morgreet | In fact, FIC would probably make more money from accessories than the phone :P |
| 01:51.47 | SpeedEvil | Biometric finger scanner - 256*4 - with fast update rate so you can use it like a optical mouse in reverse with finger. |
| 01:53.16 | Morgreet | Clint: zigbee makes more sense as an accessory, with interface to wifi or Bluetooth. After all, it makes no sense to take a zigbee device out with you. |
| 01:53.36 | Clint | well, i wasn't serious |
| 01:53.41 | Morgreet | lol |
| 01:53.58 | SpeedEvil | Zigbee driver however makes sense. |
| 01:54.05 | SpeedEvil | To turn on and off zigbee switches |
| 01:54.08 | Morgreet | Yeah |
| 01:54.22 | SpeedEvil | Or read sensors. |
| 01:55.19 | SpeedEvil | Being able to clone RF tags'd be nice. |
| 01:56.41 | SpeedEvil | http://www.gsmarena.com/motorola_a1200-1429.php - I want a flip-cover like this. But with the microphone able to act as a thumbstick even with the device closed. |
| 01:57.13 | fattyJ | a good amount of storage |
| 01:57.48 | SpeedEvil | Yeah - at least several cubic feet in a TARDIS compartment. |
| 01:58.00 | SpeedEvil | Isn't 2/4G enough? |
| 01:58.20 | SpeedEvil | Presumably more in a few years. |
| 01:58.56 | jiffyjeff | hi all, without ruffling feathers -- does anyone have the neo1973 hardware yet? or is development being done in qemu exclusively at this point? |
| 01:59.01 | fattyJ | yea thats a good amount |
| 01:59.07 | SpeedEvil | People have hardware. |
| 01:59.11 | SpeedEvil | Tehy cannot talk of it. |
| 01:59.33 | SpeedEvil | The hardware will be widespread in around a week |
| 01:59.35 | jiffyjeff | why? isn't this open? |
| 01:59.42 | SpeedEvil | and lots of poeple will be reporting on it. |
| 01:59.43 | jiffyjeff | oh, for public relations |
| 01:59.52 | SpeedEvil | the source opens in 4 days. |
| 02:00.02 | SpeedEvil | You can buy one in 5 weeks or so. |
| 02:00.21 | jiffyjeff | great -- i look forward to coding on an open platform... it's about time! |
| 02:00.59 | SpeedEvil | Yeah - it's so deeply annoying. There are hardware platforms I'd rather have. - the neo has limits. |
| 02:01.05 | SpeedEvil | But if you can't get to them, ... |
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| 02:05.17 | Morgreet | I wonder if you can implement an iButton/1-wire interface through some creative use of USB pins ... ie. no additional socket. |
| 02:08.00 | SpeedEvil | Almost certainly not. |
| 02:08.20 | SpeedEvil | The 1-wire interface requires some quite specific drive conditions. |
| 02:08.46 | SpeedEvil | And unless the USB output has been designed to do it - which would not be hard - it won't. |
| 02:09.16 | SpeedEvil | A 1-wire low-drive bus would probably be easy to bit-bang given a free GPIO though. |
| 02:11.55 | Morgreet | Yeah, but those conditions on the 1-wire change slowly. And I did say "creative", ie. looking for USB controls that might provide something suitable, just like DSR/DCD/DTR are sometimes used creatively in ways not intended. |
| 02:14.06 | Morgreet | You're probably right that it's not possible though, simply because USB is an intricate protocol. |
| 02:14.43 | SpeedEvil | It's not quite that - it's more that there has to be provision to drive the pin without the USB hardware getting in the way - whihc it will. |
| 02:15.38 | SpeedEvil | There is a quite cheap USB-1wire chip anyway. |
| 02:17.41 | Morgreet | I used to pine for an iButton crypto ring, hehe. |
| 02:21.10 | SpeedEvil | Annoyingly, they are hard to build into stuff. |
| 02:21.18 | SpeedEvil | You can't get the crypto chips seperately. |
| 02:22.02 | SpeedEvil | I was wanting to build one into a flashlight. |
| 02:22.39 | Morgreet | I seem to recall that the crypto ring was under export control. |
| 02:23.00 | SpeedEvil | Diddn't see mention of it in the datasheets. |
| 02:23.05 | SpeedEvil | It's nothing really special. |
| 02:23.24 | SpeedEvil | It is handy in one package. |
| 02:24.41 | Morgreet | And the cheaper iButtons lost out bigtime to the vastly cheaper RFID tags |
| 02:24.52 | SpeedEvil | Yeah. |
| 02:25.05 | SpeedEvil | Though few tags actually have reasonable crypto. |
| 02:25.15 | SpeedEvil | Fewer still specified crypto. |
| 02:25.50 | SpeedEvil | And the number with specified good crypto that are small and cheap is exactly 0 IIRC |
| 02:33.32 | emacsen | yeah of course the big thing is crypto on the phone itself |
| 02:33.48 | emacsen | if nothing else, to other owners of the same thing |
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| 03:34.15 | spikebik1 | counter |
| 03:34.15 | aloril | 4 days 02:25:44 (4.101 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 4 days (32.101 days) for devices for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 4 days (216.101 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
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| 04:44.44 | Mortimus | counter |
| 04:44.44 | aloril | 4 days 01:15:15 (4.052 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 4 days (32.052 days) for devices for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 4 days (216.052 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
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| 09:09.17 | sidfeeT | moin |
| 09:09.32 | hrw | moring |
| 09:10.03 | sidfeeT | ;) i tried to google a shop or price for the hw ?! |
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| 09:10.11 | hrw | 350 usd |
| 09:10.22 | sidfeeT | did u have a link 4 europe? |
| 09:10.44 | hrw | not yet |
| 09:10.52 | sidfeeT | ok thx |
| 09:11.14 | hrw | TRIsoft: ping |
| 09:11.33 | sidfeeT | perhaps it starts here a little bit later |
| 09:11.40 | aloril | counter |
| 09:11.40 | aloril | 3 days 20:48:19 (3.867 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 3 days (31.867 days) for devices for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 3 days (215.867 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (171) |
| 09:12.41 | TRIsoft | hrw: pong :D |
| 09:12.43 | sidfeeT | ahh |
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| 09:13.43 | hrw | TRIsoft: will you sell neo1973 for europe? |
| 09:14.17 | hrw | XorA: 3 days and I will finally be able to open some links which I see on one jabber conference from time to time |
| 09:15.12 | TRIsoft | hrw: Let's say, we're working on it ;-) |
| 09:15.42 | sidfeeT | TRIsoft: thats nice to notice ;)) |
| 09:16.42 | TRIsoft | Lot of work / talks in the last weeks, no final info yet |
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| 09:18.40 | sidfeeT | ok i keep watching |
| 09:19.16 | TRIsoft | Actually we wait for out samples next week, like you all do ;-) |
| 09:19.22 | TRIsoft | *our |
| 09:20.11 | sidfeeT | hehe |
| 09:20.32 | sidfeeT | but if u got them .. there will be a post on the website |
| 09:21.47 | TRIsoft | Sure. Pics and everything. I guess that we can announce something more in 1-2 weeks |
| 09:22.01 | sidfeeT | oki ^^ |
| 09:22.14 | aloril | no idea yet about when preorders are open? |
| 09:22.52 | sidfeeT | so i have to be a developer to get one |
| 09:23.22 | aloril | for 2007-03-11: anybody can get one |
| 09:23.31 | TRIsoft | Personal guess: The preorders will be avail. short before March 11th |
| 09:23.36 | aloril | just don't except too much from device yet ;-) |
| 09:24.30 | TRIsoft | The ppl. at FIC try to work 25/7 but only manage 24/7... :D |
| 09:24.56 | aloril | can this be read wrong?: "devices for anybody (targeting developers) (2007-03-11)" |
| 09:25.13 | aloril | (ie.. "you have to be developer to get one") |
| 09:25.22 | xkr47 | ? |
| 09:25.35 | xkr47 | ah |
| 09:25.41 | xkr47 | I read your sentence wrong :DD |
| 09:25.58 | xkr47 | (the one before the question mark...) |
| 09:26.15 | aloril | what about: "devices for *anybody* (targeting developers) (2007-03-11)" ? |
| 09:26.22 | xkr47 | :) |
| 09:27.18 | hrw | *ANYBODY* |
| 09:27.47 | aloril | OK ;-) |
| 09:28.09 | aloril | still mentioning that is meant for developers anyway |
| 09:28.20 | aloril | just that you can get even if you are not one |
| 09:28.49 | TRIsoft | It's the "Google Beta" trick. You may use it, but you can't complain, cause it's in beta-stage ;-) |
| 09:29.46 | xkr47 | neo beta :P |
| 09:30.17 | *** join/#openmoko Cockroach- (n=saaskoli@gw.solution.yomi.com) |
| 09:30.38 | hrw | ;D |
| 09:39.43 | sidfeeT | i'll be back *g* |
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| 10:15.16 | buz | samsung iphone http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=17203 |
| 10:15.57 | buz | looks very neat |
| 10:16.02 | buz | and the keyboard is much appreciated |
| 10:17.46 | buz | still wondering about the nokia e90 though |
| 10:17.55 | buz | that's gonna cost at least a kidney |
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| 10:32.15 | CM | buz: I hope Neo v2 is something like that :) |
| 10:33.22 | mjr | oh _that_ keyboard |
| 10:33.31 | mjr | yes, please, something like that for future Neos ;) |
| 10:40.41 | jannu | personally i'd much rather take a form factor, which makes it actually usable as a phone |
| 10:40.42 | *** join/#openmoko buz (n=buz@80-218-148-33.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
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| 10:41.09 | jannu | you know, something like 110x45x20mm |
| 10:41.40 | jannu | or 110x50x20mm, or less |
| 10:42.13 | jannu | plus a 3.5mm audio jack and a mass-market reachabe price point |
| 10:44.08 | jannu | because if you look at it from joe six-pack's point of view, the cell phone is mainly useful as a communication device plus music player |
| 10:44.35 | jannu | because those are the two things most people carry around all the time |
| 10:46.05 | jannu | before cell phone optimised web services become a lot more numerous, mobile internet is a joke for most people |
| 10:47.19 | Stephmw | opera-mini all the way ;-) |
| 10:47.38 | jannu | yep. java rocks |
| 10:48.18 | XorA | some smart person needs to make a linux app that can load through the opera mini proxy |
| 10:48.33 | CM | jannu that samsung phone is 104x50x16.4 |
| 10:48.41 | Stephmw | don't think opera have opened up their protocol |
| 10:49.00 | jannu | CM: and costs under 150€? |
| 10:49.09 | CM | Heh, probably add a 0 to that. |
| 10:49.18 | jannu | CM: the size is good though |
| 10:49.36 | CM | Yes, and the keyboard looks nice |
| 10:50.06 | jannu | for mobile internet you fist of all need a browser which starts up really really fast and can handle ajax stuff |
| 10:50.17 | jannu | ..first of all.. |
| 10:50.51 | jannu | coupled with services and sites, which are actually optimised for mobile screen sizes |
| 10:52.34 | jannu | thanks to the latencies in mobile networks, without ajax the web experience is horribly slow |
| 10:53.21 | jannu | everything takes 2-5 seconds. even with 3g |
| 10:54.29 | Stephmw | it's mostly ok with opera-mini without ajax... what it could do with is image scaling |
| 10:55.12 | jannu | Stephmw: yes it's ok, but is it a pleasure to use? |
| 10:55.35 | jannu | because that's what it usually is on a computer |
| 10:55.56 | Stephmw | you have a point. I don't break out in goose-pimples using it. |
| 10:57.45 | jannu | I think it's a pretty good measurement that with a 3g phone, my favourite way to e.g. find out where a certain store or place is, is to call one of my friends and as if he/she's close to a computer |
| 11:00.04 | jannu | yes, I have a browser on it, and it handles full size-pages surprsingly well, but still calling 6 or 7 people is much better |
| 11:01.02 | Stephmw | probably cheaper too, unless you have a flat datarate? |
| 11:01.26 | jannu | iirc it's 1,50€/MB |
| 11:02.04 | jannu | so it probably costs more or less the same |
| 11:03.02 | jannu | that said, mobile internet all in all isn't that bad |
| 11:03.28 | jannu | on the nokia n800 it's actually pretty close to the pc experience |
| 11:03.37 | Stephmw | it's just the problem with the circuit switched hangovers from PSTN that made into the mobile network |
| 11:04.20 | jannu | yep. and the fact that the form factor is just too small for regular web pages |
| 11:05.40 | jannu | I mean you can have a screen that's large enough for browsing normal web pages, or you can have a device which is actually usable with one hand |
| 11:07.47 | *** join/#openmoko zween_ (n=zween@vpn-053.vpn.net.ed.ac.uk) |
| 11:14.54 | Mirv | I've 4€ / 25MB rate |
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| 11:35.23 | jannu | hmm. would it be useful to collect some information about carrier pricing in different countries into the wiki? |
| 11:35.45 | jannu | cost of calls, sms, data and other things |
| 11:36.15 | jannu | someone mentioned on the ml that in France even receiving an sms costs something |
| 11:36.55 | jannu | knowing details like that would probably help in designing new cheaper to use applications |
| 11:38.15 | emacsen | yeah it often costs something in the US as well |
| 11:38.20 | emacsen | depending on the plan you're on |
| 11:39.24 | emacsen | something better be pretty darn important for me to pay .10 to receive that SMS message |
| 11:39.30 | jannu | in Finland charging for receiving an sms is illegal, so I was pretty surprised to hear about that |
| 11:39.58 | emacsen | do you charge the sender? |
| 11:40.03 | emacsen | or is the whole thing just free? |
| 11:40.25 | jannu | yes. sending costs something like 0.07 € |
| 11:40.38 | emacsen | wow that's expensive... |
| 11:40.57 | emacsen | Now, see here most carriers let you send to someone via email |
| 11:41.23 | emacsen | like there's a magic email address associated with each carrier where you can send your message and it'll get routed through them |
| 11:41.56 | emacsen | but Finland may be the odd case too, you guys have weird services (not that there's anything wrong with being weird) like buying tickets over SMS. we don't have anything like that here |
| 11:42.14 | jannu | you mean something like number.sms@carrier.com? |
| 11:42.17 | emacsen | yeah |
| 11:42.59 | jannu | weird, but then again understandable what with cdma and all |
| 11:43.45 | jannu | how much does it cost then? |
| 11:43.58 | emacsen | how much does what cost? email? |
| 11:44.02 | jannu | yes. |
| 11:44.06 | emacsen | nobody charges for email |
| 11:44.07 | emacsen | it's email |
| 11:44.23 | emacsen | the receiver pays their normal rate |
| 11:44.36 | jannu | ok. so the normal data rates apply |
| 11:44.44 | emacsen | some plans include a certain number of sms messages a month |
| 11:44.59 | emacsen | I have a prepaid phone because I hardly use it |
| 11:45.10 | jannu | yep. we have those package things too. |
| 11:45.16 | hrw | I have minutes in plan. 1 minute == 4 sms |
| 11:45.59 | jannu | here it's funnily enough roughly 0.07€ /minute and /sms |
| 11:46.20 | jannu | which basically makes the sms is a huge rip-off |
| 11:47.16 | emacsen | okay, on my prepaid phone, it's .10 to send, .05 to receive |
| 11:47.33 | emacsen | so, even with my expensive plan, it's cheaper for me to send then it is for you |
| 11:47.34 | jannu | which is why a phone with integrated msn or irc would sell like crazy here |
| 11:47.57 | emacsen | most phones in the US have AIM and or Yahoo, but they charge per message like SMS |
| 11:48.01 | emacsen | it's an SMS gateway |
| 11:48.27 | emacsen | no one but Microsoft people use SMS in the US, compared to AIM and even Google Talk, it's small |
| 11:48.43 | jannu | yep. i can see why |
| 11:48.52 | emacsen | i meant msn sorry |
| 11:49.10 | jannu | ok. |
| 11:49.21 | jannu | that's surprising in a way |
| 11:49.47 | jannu | aim is a given obviously, but i would've quessed that msn is above google talk |
| 11:49.52 | emacsen | people only use a message service if people they know are on it. Everyone had AIM |
| 11:50.03 | emacsen | it may just be my friends... |
| 11:50.14 | emacsen | but Google Talk is popular because you can use it anywhere |
| 11:50.18 | emacsen | (ie at work) |
| 11:50.37 | emacsen | you don't have to install software |
| 11:50.49 | jannu | so people don't really know about meebo |
| 11:50.59 | emacsen | not many |
| 11:51.33 | jannu | over here it's basically msn or irc |
| 11:51.43 | emacsen | and then there are holdouts like me who say "You have MSN... and not AIM, Yahoo or GTalk? I guess we won't talk to one another over IM..." |
| 11:52.33 | jannu | yep. that's why it would be critical to get most of the im protocols working on openmoko |
| 11:52.51 | emacsen | well, you need internet for that really... |
| 11:53.14 | jannu | donät you have open gprs gateways over there? |
| 11:53.35 | jannu | or is it all carrier controlled |
| 11:53.55 | emacsen | I think it's all carrier controlled but I'm not a phone expert, but I suspect it's carrier controlled |
| 11:54.21 | jannu | ouch |
| 11:54.30 | emacsen | most things in the US are carrier controlled, which is why we have roaming, etc. |
| 11:55.02 | emacsen | it's pretty common to not be able to use your phone while your friend can use his in the same area. it's gotten better but it still happens |
| 11:56.23 | sjoerd | So your carriers only allow you to do http/mail over gprs or ? |
| 11:56.39 | emacsen | I'm not a phone guy, that was speculatioon |
| 11:56.44 | emacsen | speculation |
| 11:57.29 | sjoerd | ok |
| 11:58.23 | emacsen | telepathy? |
| 11:58.42 | jannu | telepathy.freedesktop.org |
| 11:58.48 | sjoerd | IM/voip framework |
| 11:59.18 | emacsen | I'd like to see jabber.el :) |
| 11:59.50 | sjoerd | It runs openmoko as OS, not emacs :p |
| 12:00.12 | CM | sjoerd: do a whois on Robot101 on this channel ;) |
| 12:00.28 | sjoerd | CM: not necessary |
| 12:00.33 | CM | :) |
| 12:01.25 | CM | I wonder how good telepathy works over gprs, anyone tried? |
| 12:01.44 | jannu | I suppose it'll depend on the protocol |
| 12:02.04 | sjoerd | yeah |
| 12:02.21 | CM | Sure, but voip over gprs? |
| 12:03.19 | jannu | no way |
| 12:03.19 | sjoerd | Ah, i doubt anyone tried that |
| 12:03.20 | jannu | the latencies are way way too high |
| 12:03.20 | sjoerd | Well if you have an N770/N800 and have done a voice call with them over gprs, you've basically done that.. |
| 12:03.20 | jannu | it sort of works over 3g |
| 12:03.35 | jannu | but gprs & edge are just too slow |
| 12:03.37 | CM | Sure, that's how the 3g video calls work |
| 12:04.25 | jannu | costs like hell though |
| 12:04.37 | jannu | unless you have a flat-rate data plan |
| 12:05.35 | veroli | whois on Robot101 |
| 12:05.43 | Robot101 | CM: I've made a gtalk voice call over 3g, not tried GPRS |
| 12:05.47 | veroli | whois Robot101 |
| 12:05.53 | Robot101 | veroli: you need a / |
| 12:06.09 | veroli | thanks |
| 12:06.12 | Robot101 | 12:03 [FreeNode] -!- Robot101 [n=robot101@light.bluelinux.co.uk] |
| 12:06.12 | Robot101 | 12:03 [FreeNode] -!- ircname : Robert McQueen |
| 12:06.12 | Robot101 | 12:03 [FreeNode] -!- channels : #gpephone #gpe #darcs #openmoko #jokosher #olpc #sugar #tapioca-voip #gstreamer #hal #maemo #telepathy #farsight #Galago #ubuntu-devel #dbus #freedesktop #gift #gaim |
| 12:06.16 | Robot101 | it says that |
| 12:06.19 | Robot101 | :D |
| 12:06.23 | CM | Hehe |
| 12:09.12 | Robot101 | I think the espresso machine was one of the wisest investments this company has made. :D |
| 12:09.17 | LittleIdiot | uhm, gprs is usable for voice calls according to the ones who held the "secure voip" talk on 23c3 |
| 12:09.33 | LittleIdiot | ...well unless the network is too crowded ;) |
| 12:09.40 | *** join/#openmoko Marex (n=Marex@85.132.236.161) |
| 12:10.04 | sjoerd | In my experience the latency of gprs is quite high.. But that might have changed in recent years/depend on your provider |
| 12:10.27 | LittleIdiot | http://wwwcip.cs.fau.de/23c3/official/video/23C3-1495-en-green_phone.m4v < there's the video |
| 12:10.34 | CM | I've used ssh over gprs, worked pretty ok |
| 12:11.13 | mjr | it's usable for ssh here as well |
| 12:11.17 | mjr | not a party, but okay |
| 12:11.19 | LittleIdiot | gprs uses spare time slots, so if you have many people making gsm calls in your cell, you won't get much data trough |
| 12:12.19 | sjoerd | That depends on your operator. I know that some operators here give priority for gprs over gsm calls |
| 12:12.24 | LittleIdiot | well, take a look at the video - quite inspiring ;) |
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| 12:28.30 | noidd | ' |
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| 12:37.12 | buz | mhh i wonder how carriers account for video calls. if those have a per minute instead of traffic fee, maybe one could push tcp/ip inside the video stream? |
| 12:37.23 | jannu | collecting gprs ping times from different networks might be useful |
| 12:37.26 | buz | (not really an option without 3G in neo though) |
| 12:37.43 | jannu | To get an idea whether voip over gprs has any base in reality |
| 12:38.09 | buz | voice over CSD gsm-data should work |
| 12:38.25 | buz | http://go.theregister.com/feed/http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/02/08/nokia_frees_smart2go/ w00000t |
| 12:39.02 | jannu | inho the main selling point of voip is still true flat rate calls |
| 12:39.30 | SuN | " Free maps covering 150 countries will also be made available," |
| 12:39.32 | SuN | What the hell... |
| 12:39.35 | SuN | Why?? |
| 12:39.42 | SuN | I mean, it's nice and all. |
| 12:39.43 | SuN | But why? |
| 12:39.47 | buz | to fuck over tomtom and others? |
| 12:39.54 | SuN | What's the point? |
| 12:40.00 | buz | predatory pricing |
| 12:40.05 | *** join/#openmoko Rac0r (n=Rac0r@84.170.78.43) |
| 12:40.15 | buz | pushing gps onto phones |
| 12:40.19 | jannu | turning navigation into a commodity |
| 12:40.26 | raynet | jannu: yup |
| 12:40.28 | SuN | I'm going to have to get used to this kind of stuff. |
| 12:40.33 | jannu | and charging for extra services on top |
| 12:40.33 | buz | then make money from location based advertising |
| 12:40.38 | jannu | exactly |
| 12:40.45 | buz | going head to head with google, too |
| 12:40.53 | jannu | or location based service databases |
| 12:40.58 | *** join/#openmoko quinton (n=quinton@84-45-151-51.no-dns-yet.enta.net) |
| 12:41.05 | SuN | OH! It doesn't navigate for free. |
| 12:41.16 | buz | just like the mobile phone companies didnt like to be dependent on ms, they want to avoid dependence on google |
| 12:41.25 | SuN | In fact... they're turning it in a usage license. |
| 12:41.31 | SuN | That's sort of evil. |
| 12:41.47 | buz | in many countries that might not even hold up in court |
| 12:41.57 | buz | in switzerland, for example, only software itself is truly protected |
| 12:42.10 | buz | other copyrighted things fall under share use |
| 12:42.14 | buz | fair |
| 12:43.10 | mjr | wonder how "free" the maps will be... |
| 12:43.23 | jannu | if the map data has road information and isn't closed with restrictive licenses is shouldn't too ahrd to reimplement navigation |
| 12:43.24 | raynet | mjr, free for that specific program probably |
| 12:43.31 | buz | basically, if you can download them free as in beer, people will use them for whatever |
| 12:43.31 | mjr | raynet, yeah, seems likely |
| 12:43.42 | mjr | buz, seems equally likely |
| 12:43.50 | buz | maybe not entirely legal |
| 12:43.59 | buz | but then again, life itself might be illegal these days |
| 12:44.01 | jannu | in mapping and navigation the hardest part is getting the data |
| 12:44.04 | mjr | buz, that would probably depend on jurisdiction |
| 12:44.10 | buz | mjr: likely |
| 12:44.25 | mjr | here in Finland as well there are stricter rules for software and a bit less strict, personal use-wise, for other stuff |
| 12:44.33 | buz | mjr: same in switzerland |
| 12:44.41 | buz | and maps would hardly be considered software i guess |
| 12:44.45 | mjr | yes, I noticed that, hence "as well" :) |
| 12:44.52 | buz | oh |
| 12:45.35 | buz | actually even the copyright law overhaul looks like it will continue to allow downloading citing the idea that customers cant possibly figure out what sources are legit |
| 12:46.20 | jannu | iirc there already was a court decision in italy leaning in that direction |
| 12:46.41 | jannu | downloading for non-profit uses is always legal |
| 12:46.47 | jannu | or something like that |
| 12:47.05 | mjr | here, on the other hand, since start of 2006, it is only legal to download from legitimate sources |
| 12:47.09 | buz | that possibly true for the US even. the RIAA always sues you about uploading |
| 12:47.22 | mjr | which has raised several questions on how are people supposed to know |
| 12:47.26 | *** join/#openmoko Matt_PI (n=chatzill@209.198.66.141) |
| 12:47.34 | jannu | no, actually it was along the lines of sharing for non-profit reasons is legal |
| 12:47.45 | buz | around here sharing likely is not legal |
| 12:47.50 | buz | but it never went to court |
| 12:48.19 | jannu | anyway, in five years were probably going to be in a more or less drm-free world |
| 12:48.20 | buz | i'm waiting for the day the IFPI bullies the children of some judge or something |
| 12:48.47 | raynet | jee.. päivän voitto.. ifdown -a väärässä terminaalissa. kyseinen kone 100km päässä |
| 12:49.18 | jannu | onneks on kivat ajokelitkin |
| 12:49.32 | raynet | ups.. wrong channel :) |
| 12:49.38 | *** join/#openmoko [g2] (n=g2@nslu2-linux/g2) |
| 12:49.39 | raynet | not my day it seems.. |
| 12:49.45 | jannu | double whammy |
| 12:49.53 | raynet | need more coffee |
| 12:49.59 | jannu | raynet: or less |
| 12:50.08 | buz | jannu: you must be an optimist |
| 12:50.30 | jannu | buz: no. a sarcastic actually |
| 12:50.48 | buz | well i'm waiting for the ultimative drm |
| 12:50.54 | buz | once that comes, consumer backlash will be huge |
| 12:51.24 | buz | (not that drm could actually work like it's supposed to) |
| 12:51.40 | jannu | buz: didn't we already have the sony rootkit |
| 12:51.52 | buz | much more stringent |
| 12:51.58 | jannu | buz: ok, most people never heard about it, but still |
| 12:52.05 | buz | think vista hd stupidity ++ |
| 12:52.23 | buz | or something like "wait, why can't i watch my very own wedding video?" |
| 12:52.55 | raynet | i wonder how map copyrights go globally. |
| 12:53.11 | raynet | in some countries maps cannot be copyrighted (except for their "art") |
| 12:53.27 | *** join/#openmoko careo (n=djensen@208.71.31.193) |
| 12:53.50 | raynet | unless you add errors to the maps, thus it wont represent reality and can be copyrighted (basicly the errors are copyrighted) |
| 12:54.46 | jannu | raynet: not sure about maps copyrights as such, buut iirc the EC is working on opening up all geodesic data gathered by european government institutions |
| 12:55.07 | jannu | i.e. coordinates |
| 12:55.17 | Stephmw | raynet: indeed, Ordnance Survey maps have such errors, purposefully to catch copyright infringements |
| 12:55.39 | raynet | jannu: great. hope they make it free. not like the finnish GIS info that you can buy with annual fee |
| 12:56.11 | jannu | raynet: well, it's EC so the results of that might come around 2050 or so |
| 12:56.35 | noidd | Hmm, do we know for sure if the neo1973 will take a 2Gb mini-sd card? |
| 12:56.37 | raynet | jannu: just in time for Openmoko V43 |
| 12:56.44 | noidd | I know it will take a 1G, any news on the 2G? |
| 12:56.52 | buz | not yet |
| 12:57.53 | mjr | yeah, on the 2G there's still just the word via Sean from their vendors that it should work |
| 12:57.56 | jannu | raynet: hopefully someone will come up with the immortality drug before that |
| 12:58.26 | mjr | oh, wait, you asked about mini-sds. The Neo won't take any of those ;] |
| 12:58.29 | buz | not sure just how hard it would be for them to actually test with a real card you know |
| 12:59.01 | jannu | buz: testing with one card isn' the whole story |
| 12:59.26 | buz | well test with sandisks 2G card and tell if it works with that one |
| 12:59.33 | buz | it's available globally |
| 13:00.13 | jannu | buz: true. plus it's likely to be among the cheapest options almost everywhere |
| 13:00.40 | buz | kignston is much cheaper here |
| 13:00.46 | buz | but not sure if they sell a 2G one |
| 13:00.51 | buz | 1G is like 10? now |
| 13:01.25 | jannu | buz: yep. those prices drop really fast nowadays |
| 13:01.25 | SpeedEvil | Yeah - there is a premium for tiny ones a bit though. |
| 13:01.59 | jannu | SpeedEvil: plus you can't get 4G on either mini or micro yet |
| 13:02.00 | buz | supposedly theres a 4G microsdhc one even |
| 13:02.05 | *** join/#openmoko dneary (n=dneary@251.9.39-62.rev.gaoland.net) |
| 13:02.08 | buz | 4G minisdhc is out |
| 13:02.29 | jannu | ok. supposedly being a bit pricey? |
| 13:02.46 | hrw | [g2]: hi |
| 13:02.52 | buz | dooh, 2G sandisk is 4 times the price of 1G kingston |
| 13:02.57 | [g2] | hrw hey! |
| 13:03.25 | hrw | [g2]: I read your discussion with noidd few days ago. |
| 13:03.49 | [g2] | hrw Did that sound like a good summary ? |
| 13:03.59 | hrw | [g2]: quite good |
| 13:04.09 | jannu | buz: it seems that the biggest option is always overpriced |
| 13:05.00 | [g2] | hrw you're getting a phone in a couple days no ? |
| 13:05.18 | hrw | [g2]: next week |
| 13:05.29 | [g2] | that's very exciting :) |
| 13:05.45 | hrw | [g2]: yes |
| 13:05.45 | jannu | buz: ouch. in Finland a 2G mini-sd is around 18€ whereas a 2G micro-sd is 45€ |
| 13:05.58 | hrw | jannu: size matters |
| 13:06.09 | buz | much the same here |
| 13:06.25 | [g2] | hrw nod. The micro's are really small and have a SD carrier too |
| 13:06.27 | SpeedEvil | As I see it. 2G micro-sd - 30 quid. Cheapest 1G SD - 6 or 7 |
| 13:07.12 | jannu | here a regular 2G sd costs the same as a mini-sd |
| 13:07.25 | [g2] | hrw I'll probably be compelled to build the openmoko release after it comes out |
| 13:08.04 | jannu | in 1G they all cost the same (c. 10 €) |
| 13:08.31 | [g2] | I've been quite distracted with video/audio streaming stuff |
| 13:09.11 | [g2] | hrw any more news on the BT chipset ? |
| 13:09.53 | jannu | stupid question, but is the BT on the openmoko 2.0? |
| 13:10.08 | jannu | BT 2.0 that is |
| 13:10.15 | hrw | [g2]: its CSR chipset - bt 2.0 with edr |
| 13:10.29 | SpeedEvil | any more on power? |
| 13:10.34 | [g2] | hrw thx |
| 13:10.42 | SpeedEvil | The bluetooth |
| 13:10.45 | hrw | [g2]: usb connected iirc |
| 13:11.21 | jannu | great. bt 2.0 means that music & file sharing over bt should be pretty fast |
| 13:11.30 | [g2] | hrw Harald's post about usb console looked really sweet |
| 13:11.38 | hrw | 2.1Mbps real transfer |
| 13:11.56 | buz | my cablemodem is faster than that ;)= |
| 13:12.09 | hrw | buz: my cable do 1536/170 |
| 13:12.12 | mjr | jannu, plus for using those DAVE storage devices ;) |
| 13:12.21 | SpeedEvil | IRDA would be a nice complement. |
| 13:12.31 | mjr | I consider IRDA obsolete |
| 13:12.38 | jannu | mjr: yep. and it's fast enough for audio streaming over bt |
| 13:12.53 | SpeedEvil | Well, yes. It is very small, and can give high bandwidths at short ranges. |
| 13:13.01 | [g2] | jannu mjr not if you want to do FLAC |
| 13:13.16 | [g2] | but fine for ogg |
| 13:13.40 | SpeedEvil | Even mp3, it's what, 15 seconds a track. |
| 13:13.41 | [g2] | clearly BT 2.0 edr is the way to go |
| 13:13.43 | mjr | I don't think the rest of the phone is quite hifi enough for your flacs ;) |
| 13:13.50 | jannu | [g2]: yep. but I was mainly thinking about for the situations where your friend asks you what you are listening to |
| 13:14.22 | jannu | [g2]: just stream the stuff to his phone over bt |
| 13:14.35 | [g2] | jannu nod, but really that'll be on the micro-sd, ipod, or D.A.V.E device |
| 13:15.25 | jannu | [g2]: yep. obviously |
| 13:15.41 | [g2] | and there's speaker on the a780 |
| 13:15.46 | mjr | incidentally, any news on the upcoming DAVE's extent of openness, ie. can one install a bt-wifi gateway on one? :] |
| 13:16.50 | jannu | [g2]: yes, but i was thinking about public places. where you don't want to annoy people too much |
| 13:17.06 | jannu | [g2]: more like the zune sharing, but without drm |
| 13:17.30 | [g2] | jannu I was thinking about simply securing the device and extending it a little |
| 13:18.12 | jannu | [g2]: i was still speaking about just the phone |
| 13:18.21 | [g2] | jannu stuff like being able to pair/wifi with my wife's/kids/friends devices with access control |
| 13:18.50 | [g2] | jannu I see openmoko as simply a sane linux box |
| 13:19.03 | [g2] | just scp over BT |
| 13:19.16 | [g2] | or NFS over BT or whatever |
| 13:19.26 | [g2] | obex anyone |
| 13:19.34 | jannu | [g2]: i see it as a possibility for an actually usable communication device & audio player |
| 13:20.05 | [g2] | s/audio player/audio play remote control/ :) |
| 13:20.11 | jannu | [g2]: plus possibly a decent notebook & calendar |
| 13:20.18 | jannu | [g2]: yeah. that too |
| 13:20.34 | [g2] | I'm all setup for audio/video streaming |
| 13:20.44 | [g2] | vlc actually has a web interface |
| 13:21.04 | [g2] | so initially, a simple web browsing allows changing video streams |
| 13:21.11 | jannu | [g2]: there are usb-to-vga converters as well |
| 13:21.30 | [g2] | jannu I'm just talking about using the phone as a remote |
| 13:22.17 | jannu | [g2]: ok. I was thinking about hauling your multimedia stuff around with it and plugging it into the home theater system at a friends house |
| 13:22.19 | [g2] | clearly when one is away, it can function as a audio player |
| 13:22.57 | [g2] | jannu that's where DAVE or an ipod/video ipod would come in |
| 13:23.06 | jannu | [g2]: along with the remote you could do all sorts of home autmation things with it |
| 13:23.28 | jannu | [g2]: and that's where the security stuff matters as well |
| 13:23.30 | [g2] | really all A/V fonw |
| 13:23.32 | [g2] | now |
| 13:23.56 | [g2] | exactly on the security end |
| 13:24.23 | hrw | jannu: usb-to-vga need usb 2.0 speed |
| 13:24.43 | jannu | [g2]: i'm actually hoping that memory card sizes will go up so quickly that in a year or so I can get rid of all separate media players |
| 13:24.47 | [g2] | simply doing stuff like locking up the contacts on the phone, then if you lose one's phone or it's stolen, there's still the crypto to crack |
| 13:25.07 | SpeedEvil | jannu: micro-sd pretty much means one chip. |
| 13:25.25 | SpeedEvil | It's going to lag 4 times or so behind the edges of SD. |
| 13:25.30 | jannu | [g2]: yes. I was also thinking about storing all information per sim card and locking it up if the card is changed |
| 13:25.34 | [g2] | jannu IMHO it's a playback/battery issue |
| 13:25.54 | SpeedEvil | Yeah. |
| 13:26.00 | jannu | SpeedEvil: yeah. I know. |
| 13:26.12 | SpeedEvil | IMO, as a MP3 player, the life of the neo won't be great. |
| 13:26.15 | buz | i hope neo will have a bigger sd slot |
| 13:26.22 | SpeedEvil | As it has no hardware decoger. |
| 13:26.27 | jannu | SpeedEvil: which is why a full sd slot would be a must |
| 13:26.28 | SpeedEvil | Decoder. |
| 13:26.32 | [g2] | buz the specs page says micro-sd |
| 13:26.44 | SpeedEvil | So the CPU has to be active all the time. |
| 13:26.54 | SpeedEvil | Which sucks battery down hard. |
| 13:27.12 | buz | i meant to write neo v2 |
| 13:27.14 | SpeedEvil | Full SD slot means the phone gets bigger. |
| 13:27.19 | jannu | SpeedEvil: yep. a separate multi-codec dsp would be a must |
| 13:27.32 | jannu | SpeedEvil: not necessarily |
| 13:27.35 | SpeedEvil | I'd be moderagely happy with hardware MP3 |
| 13:28.06 | SpeedEvil | As the chips are comparatively cheap. |
| 13:28.28 | jannu | SpeedEvil: i quess most people would, but it's the same problem as with the im protocols |
| 13:28.34 | SpeedEvil | Or a DSP with a little memory. |
| 13:28.59 | SpeedEvil | So you can wake the CPU up every second or several, and throw it some data. |
| 13:29.03 | buz | the cpu will have to occasionaly wake up anyhow |
| 13:29.05 | [g2] | jannu almost all of the Sansa line has a micro-SD slot |
| 13:29.46 | buz | sansa audio quality is truly crappy |
| 13:29.46 | buz | worse than even shuffle 2 |
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| 13:29.55 | jannu | SpeedEvil: unless you support all codecs, youäre going to leave some users in the cold |
| 13:29.57 | SpeedEvil | Sure. |
| 13:30.02 | [g2] | buz I doubt the phones music quality will be better |
| 13:30.10 | SpeedEvil | I don't care about leaving some users in the cold. |
| 13:30.11 | jannu | SpeedEvil: besides, imho users shouldn't need to care about file formats |
| 13:30.23 | SpeedEvil | If it means the phone is cheaper and works better for most. |
| 13:30.23 | jannu | SpeedEvil: it's music, it plays. period |
| 13:30.23 | [g2] | rockbox is partially running on the sansa |
| 13:30.37 | SpeedEvil | As unfortunately, multi-standard chips are at the moment more expensive. |
| 13:31.01 | [g2] | SpeedEvil nod, it's a cost/feature trade-off |
| 13:31.36 | [g2] | and will continue to be for another 10-20 years |
| 13:31.36 | SpeedEvil | Especially as 90%+++ people are happy with mp3. |
| 13:31.36 | SpeedEvil | (real people, not geeks) |
| 13:31.38 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 13:31.59 | jannu | [g2]: i'm quessing it'll be like that forever |
| 13:32.14 | jannu | [g2]: the real question is when the cost difference becomes so small that it doesn't matter anymore |
| 13:32.15 | SpeedEvil | In the UK, DAB is an interesting case. Digital radio has recently been brought out nationwide, with several extra channels. |
| 13:32.37 | jannu | SpeedEvil: don't forget itms and aac |
| 13:32.38 | SpeedEvil | However, last year, the regulator dropped the 128K bitrate (MP2, not even mp3) |
| 13:32.47 | buz | id be happy with 192vbr mp3 if the AD converter was decent |
| 13:32.48 | SpeedEvil | No, that's irrelevant. |
| 13:32.55 | noidd | there is a micro-sd? as opposed to mini-sd? |
| 13:32.56 | noidd | crap |
| 13:33.35 | jannu | SpeedEvil: aac irrelevant? |
| 13:33.36 | [g2] | jannu having lived through the last 25 years of PCs, I can imaging that the next 25 years of computing advances will be equally amazing |
| 13:33.43 | SpeedEvil | The regulator now says 'bitrates can be as low as the provider wants, commercial competition will determine bitrate. |
| 13:33.58 | SpeedEvil | It's irrelevant for the currently rolled out DAB network. |
| 13:34.04 | SpeedEvil | In the UK. |
| 13:34.32 | *** part/#openmoko apokryphos (n=francis@unaffiliated/apokryphos) |
| 13:34.36 | SpeedEvil | We now see Digital radio consistently sounding worse than FM. |
| 13:34.46 | SpeedEvil | And most people don't notice. |
| 13:34.54 | jannu | SpeedEvil: oh for that. I was thinking about stored media, not radio |
| 13:35.14 | SpeedEvil | Yeah - at some times, it drops speech programs down to 64K mono. |
| 13:35.35 | SpeedEvil | And music at 96K MP2 is insane. |
| 13:35.42 | buz | people still listen to radio? |
| 13:35.55 | SpeedEvil | In the UK, yes, quite a lot. |
| 13:36.05 | SpeedEvil | The BBC radio services are a large driver. |
| 13:36.07 | jannu | [g2]: I'm not pessimistic about development. it's just that by reality more complex (multi-codec) chips will always cost more than simpler (single codec) ones |
| 13:36.18 | buz | i think the only time i ever listen radio is when the RDS stuff in the car announces traffic stuff |
| 13:36.40 | jannu | [g2]: but I'd daresay that in 6 months time the price difference will become nonexistent |
| 13:37.19 | jannu | me too me too |
| 13:37.37 | jannu | imho right now the main point of edge is internet radio |
| 13:37.38 | [g2] | jannu I'm just saying in the next few years decoding all sane audio formats up to CD quality will be at the same price point |
| 13:37.53 | [g2] | based on .25nm logic |
| 13:38.12 | *** join/#openmoko Eblis (n=Miranda@82.77.126.134) |
| 13:38.14 | [g2] | ok maybe 25nm :) |
| 13:38.18 | SpeedEvil | It'll be a while till your average MP3 /... decoder is on 25nm. |
| 13:38.26 | jannu | [g2]: yep. i'd guess so too |
| 13:38.42 | [g2] | SpeedEvil doubt that. you know Nvida bout PortalPlayer right ? |
| 13:38.59 | SpeedEvil | no? |
| 13:39.12 | Matt_PI | http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/en/news-13261-When+the+Korean+GOD+awake%2C+he+gives+us...+the+Samsung+Ultra+Smart+F700.html |
| 13:39.18 | [g2] | SpeedEvil deals already closed for about a month or so |
| 13:39.29 | *** join/#openmoko Marex_ (n=Marex@85.132.236.161) |
| 13:39.29 | Matt_PI | Now thats a phone |
| 13:39.38 | SpeedEvil | Ah - bought. |
| 13:39.42 | SpeedEvil | yes. |
| 13:40.00 | jannu | Matt_PI: probably with a price to match as well |
| 13:40.23 | SpeedEvil | There is still a fair bit of cheaper fab out there at much, much lower prices per chip than the latest geometry plant. |
| 13:40.25 | Matt_PI | Proably as expenive as the iPhone |
| 13:40.37 | SpeedEvil | And at looser geometry. |
| 13:40.52 | SpeedEvil | Commodity chips, with the exception of RAM are rarely at teh bleeding edge. |
| 13:41.02 | jannu | Matt_PI: so not exactly a mass market gadget |
| 13:41.25 | *** join/#openmoko gambler (n=orion@203-206-26-220.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 13:41.33 | jannu | Matt_PI: still a cool device. too bad the software isn't open |
| 13:42.12 | buz | SpeedEvil: flash too, i think |
| 13:42.12 | SpeedEvil | yeah. |
| 13:42.12 | SpeedEvil | That too. |
| 13:42.16 | buz | but really, doesnt get any more commodity than memory |
| 13:42.27 | CM | Anoter phone map app: http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/02/08/nokia_frees_smart2go/ |
| 13:42.38 | jannu | Matt_PI: and the bundled software probably won't let you do half the things the hardware is capable of |
| 13:42.38 | *** join/#openmoko nomasteryoda (n=nomaster@59.sub-75-202-97.myvzw.com) |
| 13:42.57 | SpeedEvil | buz: logic, decoder chips, microcontrollers, ... |
| 13:43.02 | Matt_PI | It may be once OpenMoko gets a foothold and flash can be done with SVG |
| 13:43.22 | SpeedEvil | All rarely near the cutting edge of geometry apart from special purpose chips. |
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| 13:49.42 | Matt_PI | http://the.fuchsia-design.com/ this Guy also works on Joost ....Joost is mostly based on open standard /open source coode |
| 13:49.47 | [g2] | SpeedEvil Core 2's are commodity chips and Athlons are both at 65nm now |
| 13:50.01 | SpeedEvil | Yes - processors are an exception. |
| 13:50.05 | [g2] | iirc the PP chips were 130nm |
| 13:50.20 | SpeedEvil | I mean stuff other than stuff which has to be blazingly fast. |
| 13:50.21 | jannu | still. 65nm and 25nm are worlds apart |
| 13:50.27 | [g2] | there's a bunch of FPGA and little ARMS like LPCs |
| 13:50.44 | [g2] | jannu that was 4 years out for the 25nm |
| 13:51.08 | SpeedEvil | For stuff that's designed to be cheap, it rarely sits near the bleeding edge. |
| 13:51.18 | SpeedEvil | Apart from stuff like RAM/flash where it has to. |
| 13:51.21 | [g2] | Intel is goin 45nm in late '07 or '08 |
| 13:51.23 | SpeedEvil | <PROTECTED> |
| 13:52.02 | jannu | [g2]: ok. dsps in 25nm in 4 years. i'd have to agree with that |
| 13:52.33 | [g2] | my point is in 4 years 65-70nm will be "trailing tech" |
| 13:53.01 | jannu | [g2]: but for cpus 25nm is probably going to be trickier |
| 13:53.40 | [g2] | jannu not that much trickier than all the previous generations that were all pretty tricky :) |
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| 14:02.19 | [g2] | jannu Ok... there's the url I was looking for http://www.photonics.com/content/news/2007/January/26/86252.aspx |
| 14:02.35 | [g2] | 160K in a white blood cell |
| 14:02.46 | [g2] | "There's plenty of room at the bottom" |
| 14:06.41 | buz | mh just look at cells, really |
| 14:06.46 | *** join/#openmoko Ryushin (n=Ryushin@windwalker.openinnovations.com) |
| 14:06.48 | buz | a lot of data in there ;) |
| 14:09.59 | *** join/#openmoko terrex (n=terrex@84-122-65-39.onocable.ono.com) |
| 14:10.28 | [g2] | buz nod GBytes :) |
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| 14:30.39 | Morgreet | LittleIdiot: thanks for the video you linked. That's a very interesting talk on cellphone encryption, just watched it. |
| 14:31.12 | Morgreet | I hope those two presenters get a Neo quickly, they're good ambassadors. ;-) |
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| 14:32.42 | Morgreet | In case someone else wants to watch it, here's the URL again: (big download) |
| 14:32.50 | Morgreet | <PROTECTED> |
| 14:35.40 | Morgreet | Hi Mickey, taking a breather from the grind? ;-) |
| 14:39.36 | jannu | [g2]: wow. hadn't heard about this before |
| 14:39.46 | *** join/#openmoko madwoota (n=mad@woota.net) |
| 14:40.10 | jannu | [g2]: have to look a bit more into that. |
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| 14:41.21 | SpeedEvil | Anyone know how GSM data calls are generally charged in the UK and how easy it is to set them up? |
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| 14:41.59 | XorA | SpeedEvil: on most networks take a large sized reamer and bend over |
| 14:42.15 | Morgreet | jannu: It was on Slashdot a week or two ago. This is good infrastructure/enabling tech. Nanotech is coming, in due course. All these things facilitate the way. |
| 14:42.58 | SpeedEvil | Is that based on knowledge of the UK market, or general principles? |
| 14:42.59 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 14:43.12 | jannu | Morgreet: too bad software doesn't seem to be able to keep up |
| 14:43.16 | andrerav | whoa, nanotech? openmoko is leading the way, I understand :) |
| 14:43.25 | SpeedEvil | Nanotech is coming. I would be astonished if it's not here in a thousand years. |
| 14:43.35 | SpeedEvil | Narrowing down _when_ is the hard part. |
| 14:43.54 | XorA | SpeedEvil: knowledge of the prices, a lot of time the bastards wont let you use your pre-paid minutes |
| 14:44.11 | Morgreet | XorA: and that won't change, either, because greed is everywhere. The solution has to lie in peer-to-peer solutions, either wifi or mesh or similar. If a central corp is in the loop, the wallet will always suffer. |
| 14:44.33 | SpeedEvil | Nanotech as in general purpose nanotech, which lets you construct arbitrary objects for only marginal energy cost. |
| 14:44.49 | XorA | SpeedEvil: GPRS is a whole lot cheaper as t-mobile only charge 7.50 GBP for unlimited use |
| 14:44.52 | SpeedEvil | Morgreet: there are _horrible_ problems with mesh. |
| 14:45.10 | SpeedEvil | Thanks. I was wondering about that. |
| 14:45.16 | Morgreet | SpeedEvil: Good. Ee are problem solvers. |
| 14:45.23 | Morgreet | s/Ee/We/ |
| 14:45.23 | *** join/#openmoko arnykane (n=arnykane@gw.solution.yomi.com) |
| 14:45.24 | SpeedEvil | Unsolvable problems. |
| 14:45.28 | SpeedEvil | In many cases. |
| 14:46.01 | Morgreet | SpeedEvil: yesterday you used the word "impossible" a lot. Today you are using "unsolvable". Kind of regressive guy, aren't you. ;-) |
| 14:46.13 | SpeedEvil | If you have a mesh, and the average hop distance to the target device is 20 hops, then your bandwidth drops to around 1/20^2 - 1/400th |
| 14:46.22 | SpeedEvil | And that's best case. |
| 14:46.53 | SpeedEvil | In real life, you're going to get congestion becasue the mesh is not evenly spread. |
| 14:47.07 | SpeedEvil | Then you run into the problem with current wavebands that distant stations you can't recieve up the noise floor. |
| 14:47.14 | mickeyl | heya |
| 14:47.20 | Morgreet | SpeedEvil: Oh, you're so right. And of course that's why P2P can never POSSIBLY work. Oh wait .... |
| 14:47.27 | TRIsoft | Hi Mickey |
| 14:47.48 | mickeyl | Morgreet: indeed. i'm having to schedule between preparing for my thesis defence and openmoko related work. |
| 14:47.51 | SpeedEvil | For evenly spread stations, as r increases, the number of stations goes up by r^2, and their signal contribution goes up linearly with r. |
| 14:47.57 | robtaylor | Morgreet: unsolvable like there's an infinite number of primes |
| 14:48.06 | SpeedEvil | P2P is quite different - it is _not_ a mesh. |
| 14:48.17 | SpeedEvil | It's multiple point to point connections. |
| 14:48.27 | robtaylor | you can work around it with some infrastructure |
| 14:48.30 | SpeedEvil | There is no interference in that sense. |
| 14:48.43 | SpeedEvil | True - however, you need at least several layers. |
| 14:49.04 | Morgreet | mickeyl: good luck on the viva. Most examiners are very helpful, they *want* you to pass if you know your stuff, so you'll do fine. :-) |
| 14:49.14 | mickeyl | thanks :) |
| 14:49.21 | robtaylor | SpeedEvil: yep, something order log (link distance of mesh) |
| 14:49.34 | SpeedEvil | You have to have 'uplinks' to the proper net quite often - especially with adverse conditions where all of the traffic may be routed through one node. |
| 14:49.37 | buz | more often than not you have more clue on the topic than they do anyhow |
| 14:49.41 | buz | and you should have |
| 14:49.54 | SpeedEvil | 60Ghz helps _lots_ in this. |
| 14:50.07 | robtaylor | SpeedEvil: really? |
| 14:50.10 | SpeedEvil | As the atmosphere absorbs it, and you don't get the problem with far stations interfering. |
| 14:50.20 | robtaylor | SpeedEvil: ah, i see |
| 14:50.25 | mickeyl | indeed. I think I'm probably the most educated middleware expert on the panel, however they are allowed to ask questions from their domains and then I must improvise how that correlates to my work. these kind of questions are what I'm afraid of |
| 14:50.25 | SpeedEvil | However, the downside of that is the range. |
| 14:50.26 | robtaylor | make sense |
| 14:50.26 | buz | wtf uses 60GHz networks? |
| 14:50.27 | *** join/#openmoko kurumin (n=kurumin@pb.bes.pt) |
| 14:50.37 | SpeedEvil | 60Ghz is upcoming. |
| 14:50.45 | SpeedEvil | It's recently got licenced in lots of places. |
| 14:50.49 | buz | 11a isnt even 1/10 of that |
| 14:51.06 | SpeedEvil | The idea is that it is line of sight - but it's in a band that is lightly absorbed by the atmosphere. |
| 14:51.17 | SpeedEvil | In a kilometer or so, you can't pick it up. |
| 14:51.22 | SpeedEvil | (might be ten, I forget) |
| 14:51.54 | SpeedEvil | This is a big plus, because you don't have nodes outside your range that you can't decode making the band noisier. |
| 14:52.51 | buz | if it's LoS you might as well go laser or some such |
| 14:53.06 | SpeedEvil | it's not quite LOS. |
| 14:53.10 | SpeedEvil | It goes through some stuff. |
| 14:53.13 | SpeedEvil | Not much. |
| 14:53.24 | buz | so does laser, but afterwards there's not much left |
| 14:53.28 | SpeedEvil | And it has significant rain penetration. |
| 14:53.33 | SpeedEvil | Depends on the power :) |
| 14:53.48 | buz | well lets say IF laser goes thru, not much is left |
| 14:54.40 | SpeedEvil | Imagine a party - how much quieter it would be if the people that you can't understand because they are too far away are inaudible completely. |
| 14:55.00 | Morgreet | counter |
| 14:55.00 | aloril | 3 days 15:04:59 (3.628 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 3 days (31.628 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 3 days (215.628 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (172) |
| 14:55.13 | robtaylor | ooh *exciting* |
| 14:55.22 | Morgreet | :P |
| 14:55.24 | hrw | week... |
| 14:55.54 | hrw | if everything go fast |
| 14:56.12 | Morgreet | Will be nice to get stuck in and produce stuff ... instead of arguing against people who say stuff is impossible. |
| 14:56.12 | SpeedEvil | 5 weeks for me. |
| 14:56.24 | SpeedEvil | I'm not saying it's impossible. |
| 14:56.30 | kurumin | +can't wait ... |
| 14:56.45 | SpeedEvil | I'm saying there are well known papers in the field that argue persuasively that it's impossible. |
| 14:57.00 | SpeedEvil | (a general worldwide mesh network on one frequency) |
| 14:57.21 | *** part/#openmoko ValiSystM (n=ValiSyst@81.56.207.165) |
| 14:57.30 | SpeedEvil | Yes, you can do it with multiple overlaid networks at different frequencies, with some with longhauls. |
| 14:57.36 | buz | theres way too little bandwidth outthere |
| 14:57.39 | SpeedEvil | Yes. |
| 14:57.59 | buz | you dont even need to do the math, it's frigging obvious |
| 14:58.00 | SpeedEvil | Wireless is 'hot' - but never underestimate the bandwidth of a truckload of fibre. |
| 14:58.02 | SpeedEvil | Or something :) |
| 14:58.19 | buz | heck even one multimode fibre |
| 14:58.25 | SpeedEvil | Yeah. |
| 14:58.41 | SpeedEvil | There are ways that you can up the effective carrying capacity of wireless. |
| 14:58.46 | Morgreet | SpeedEvil: yeah, I remember at the time of 14.4K modems, plenty of papers that said we couldn't do domestic networking much faster by Shannon. /sigh Everything is possible in engineering. We just move the goalposts when necessary. |
| 14:58.48 | buz | and you generally dont lay one at a time |
| 14:59.04 | *** join/#openmoko libervisco (n=libervis@tuxhacker/libervis) |
| 14:59.23 | Morgreet | Just needs a basic look-forward attitude, instead of a "we can't" one. |
| 14:59.31 | buz | right now we cant |
| 14:59.33 | buz | and likely not soon either |
| 14:59.35 | SpeedEvil | There are fundamental physical limits. Ignoring them is rather silly. |
| 15:00.15 | SpeedEvil | The caveat on shannon/phone was always 'if the phone channel is a 3.?Khz bandwidth, with n signal-noise ration. |
| 15:00.30 | SpeedEvil | If it's not, then the limits no longer apply. |
| 15:00.32 | buz | yeah but we got progressively better phone cabling |
| 15:00.39 | SpeedEvil | No, we diddn't. |
| 15:00.47 | buz | in some places we did |
| 15:00.51 | SpeedEvil | The link between exchanges went digital. |
| 15:00.51 | buz | shorter hauls too |
| 15:01.00 | SpeedEvil | Which got 56K possible. |
| 15:01.03 | Morgreet | SpeedEvil: lol. You obviously don't know how science works. Those limits are actually only the limits within our models. There are no "Laws of Nature", they're just current limitations in our understanding. |
| 15:01.11 | buz | which is essentially getting better phone cabling |
| 15:01.37 | SpeedEvil | Morgreet: The same argument can be made that it will one day be possible to travel faster than light. |
| 15:01.37 | buz | well you're welcome to proof einstein wrong for one |
| 15:01.51 | buz | for the time being it's the best model we have |
| 15:02.00 | SpeedEvil | This is possible that in the future it will be possible. |
| 15:02.12 | SpeedEvil | It does not become possible solely because we want it to be. |
| 15:02.18 | SpeedEvil | The universe has to allow it. |
| 15:02.40 | SpeedEvil | Yes, we may improve our understanding of the universe beyond what it is, but that does not mean the universe allows it. |
| 15:02.43 | buz | i'm pretty sure stones will drop towards the floor even in 100000 years from now |
| 15:02.47 | Morgreet | I didn't change my cabling, and the PTT is still BT. But I'm getting 10Mbps over ADSL on the same copper that previously was supposedly limited by Shannon to a few Kbps. Current limits are only there to be overcome, and that's all the fun of being an engineer. |
| 15:02.58 | SpeedEvil | No, it wasn't. |
| 15:03.09 | buz | it's not the same copper |
| 15:03.15 | buz | it's only the same copper to the next dlasm |
| 15:03.20 | SpeedEvil | The shannon limit was only ever "with X bandwidth and Y signal-noise ratio" |
| 15:03.29 | SpeedEvil | And Z modem complexity. |
| 15:03.36 | Morgreet | Nobody dug up my front yard to replace the 30 year old copper, I assure you. |
| 15:03.51 | buz | yeah but they dug out the copper behind your local station |
| 15:03.52 | SpeedEvil | However, that copper does not go all the way to my house. |
| 15:03.54 | buz | and put in massive fibre |
| 15:04.10 | Morgreet | It still has to go through my copper. Live with it. |
| 15:04.14 | SpeedEvil | It goes to your local DSLAM, where it gets converted to digital. |
| 15:04.14 | buz | and they sure as hell replaced all CABLE cabling in my house. TWICE. |
| 15:04.24 | SpeedEvil | Yes, it has to go through your copper. |
| 15:04.28 | SpeedEvil | Up to the exchange. |
| 15:04.33 | SpeedEvil | This is at most several miles. |
| 15:04.39 | buz | a few hundred meters in most places |
| 15:04.42 | buz | at most about 8km |
| 15:04.43 | SpeedEvil | _all_ the wiring after that has been changed. |
| 15:04.53 | buz | at which point you will suffer severely limited bandwidth |
| 15:04.56 | SpeedEvil | In my case actually around 9. |
| 15:05.05 | SpeedEvil | 63dB attenuation. |
| 15:05.22 | SpeedEvil | Meh - it's better than dialup. |
| 15:05.25 | Morgreet | You're purposely missing the point. The narrowest part of the pipe will always restrict the bandwith of a composite pipe. The fact of the matter is, it didn't. |
| 15:05.40 | SpeedEvil | It was never the narrowest part of the pipe. |
| 15:05.41 | *** join/#openmoko kurumin_ (n=kurumin@pb.bes.pt) |
| 15:05.53 | SpeedEvil | The 3.4Khz bandwidth limit at the exchange was the narrow part. |
| 15:06.36 | SpeedEvil | Even at the time of 2400 baud modems, there was _much_ _much_ faster coms going over relatively long distances without these filters. |
| 15:06.49 | SpeedEvil | Over leased analog lines. |
| 15:06.51 | Morgreet | I'm not interested in arguing, SpeedEvil. You're regressive by nature, it's that simple. I'm interested in overcoming any current restrictions, rather than declaring things to be impossible. |
| 15:07.56 | buz | yeah |
| 15:08.04 | buz | T1 was mostly copper right? |
| 15:08.32 | buz | there are fundamental limits, Morgreet |
| 15:08.45 | buz | the only question is, are our current approximation of those largely correct or not |
| 15:09.30 | Morgreet | buz: limits are only there to be overcome. We do that no necessarily by a frontal attack, but often by finding an alternative approach. That's what makes engineering so much fun. |
| 15:09.41 | SpeedEvil | The 'shannon limit' with copper cabling in telecoms with regards to modems was always largely the fact that the phone companies had a brick wall filter that simply stopped any frequencies over 3.4Khz. |
| 15:10.27 | SpeedEvil | Because over that frequency the long-haul cables between exchanges would have too much crosstalk. |
| 15:10.34 | *** join/#openmoko Flusher (i=flusher@filer.euroserv.com) |
| 15:10.47 | SpeedEvil | This changed when things went digital in the exchanges - system X. |
| 15:10.48 | robtaylor | Morgreet: yes, but you need to accept limits so you work on the right solution |
| 15:11.09 | SpeedEvil | Which meant that the only real copper was to your local linecard. |
| 15:11.15 | SpeedEvil | After that it was all digital. |
| 15:11.44 | SpeedEvil | This made 56K possible. |
| 15:12.01 | buz | you dont go about doubting laws of thermodynamics do you? |
| 15:12.21 | SpeedEvil | ADSL was made possible, because the linecard was then replaced by one with fewer limits - it can send and recieve over a much, much wider bandwidth than the 3.4Khz of the old ones. |
| 15:12.40 | buz | and adsl2 was more of the same |
| 15:12.59 | Morgreet | robtaylor: accept limits as applying within a specific technology, yes, that's being realistic, and engineers are. The answer is almost always to extend the domain a little so that the limit in question no longer applies. That's what I meant by "moving the goalposts". |
| 15:13.05 | buz | now as for cable, there company actually replaced most cabling out there, at least in switzerland |
| 15:13.13 | buz | they needed backchannel and higher bandwidth cabling |
| 15:13.24 | *** join/#openmoko Flusher (i=flusher@filer.euroserv.com) |
| 15:16.53 | Morgreet | Does anyone know whether Leigh Honeywell or Paul Wouter are on the Phase 0 developer's list? Those were the two presenters in the CCC video on mobile phone encryption, and they mentioned the OpenMoko in a hopeful light. Would be great if they were on the project. |
| 15:17.49 | Morgreet | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:17.57 | Morgreet | That video. |
| 15:18.34 | *** join/#openmoko n (n=n@BSN-210-239-250.dial-up.dsl.siol.net) |
| 15:19.11 | Eblis | really pushing the video :) |
| 15:19.15 | hrw | lets see |
| 15:19.41 | Morgreet | Eblis: wasn't my link, it was posted by LittleIdiot. It's very informative though, and good quality. |
| 15:19.52 | Eblis | watching it right now :D |
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| 15:30.27 | Morgreet | They mentioned the issue of separate SoC's handling the GSM section and the host software, and the embedded SoC being able to turn on the microphone independently of the Linux host SoC. Interesting issue. |
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| 15:36.16 | kurumin | hey jack the ripper ... |
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| 16:07.57 | xkr47 | => noidd is awake again \o/ |
| 16:08.27 | SpeedEvil | Are you sure? |
| 16:08.32 | SpeedEvil | It could just all be a dream. |
| 16:08.34 | *** join/#openmoko libervisco (n=libervis@tuxhacker/libervis) |
| 16:08.44 | xkr47 | do you question my perl scripts ?-) |
| 16:10.10 | noidd | I've not seen your perl scripts |
| 16:10.14 | noidd | lets see'em |
| 16:24.44 | xkr47 | http://xkr47.outerspace.dyndns.org/tools/perl.png |
| 16:24.45 | xkr47 | :D |
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| 16:54.47 | Morgreet | Interesting snippet from a Slashdot headline: "the Ministry of Education in Russia has decided that the school boards will no longer be purchasing any commercial software." |
| 16:57.15 | dottedmag | Morgreet: unfortunately, this is wrong. He said that software will be selected after examining many factors, and only one factor is price. |
| 16:58.07 | dottedmag | Well, it's much better than previous situation when everything was bought from M$ |
| 16:59.34 | Morgreet | Indeed, and for all we know it was a stickup anyway. But Gates didn't do himself any favours. They probably planned it that way, but even so, he do himself any favours. |
| 16:59.42 | Morgreet | stitchup |
| 16:59.52 | Morgreet | Not stickup :-))) |
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| 17:02.38 | Morgreet | Whatever one might think of MS and BG, he's an amateur at intrigue and evil versus any politician. :P |
| 17:03.22 | Morgreet | counter |
| 17:03.22 | aloril | 3 days 12:56:37 (3.539 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 3 days (31.539 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 3 days (215.539 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (173) |
| 17:03.36 | Morgreet | <PROTECTED> |
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| 17:27.59 | LittleIdiot | will any of you be on the ccc camp this summer? ;) |
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| 17:39.59 | Mortimus | counter |
| 17:39.59 | aloril | 3 days 12:20:00 (3.514 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 3 days (31.514 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 3 days (215.514 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (174) |
| 17:41.00 | *** join/#openmoko dneary (n=dneary@86.69.202.144) |
| 17:41.44 | xkr47 | .. if you can't count until next monday without a computer, you're a true nerd :) |
| 17:42.20 | Mortimus | I'm sorry time is irrelevant for me. |
| 17:44.23 | *** join/#openmoko matsch (n=matsch@dyndsl-091-096-004-080.ewe-ip-backbone.de) |
| 17:44.24 | Mortimus | and my clock seems to be 12 hours off |
| 17:44.40 | *** join/#openmoko ninHer (n=ninHer@unaffiliated/ninher) |
| 17:44.56 | Morgreet | Time is a funny thing. Just ask any electron. |
| 17:45.43 | ninHer | hi all |
| 17:45.54 | Mortimus | morning |
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| 17:51.22 | Mortimus | i need to call verizon and get out of my contract and switch to cingular so i can use OpenMoko |
| 17:52.19 | cjb | Mortimus: can you do the text message charge thing? |
| 17:52.22 | Mortimus | question if providers like to lock a phone for their service only how would that work when selling the openmoko since it is so open |
| 17:52.29 | Mortimus | yes sir |
| 17:52.35 | cjb | cool. |
| 17:52.51 | cjb | they like to lock a phone *after* they subsidise it so you buy it from them and then have to stick with your contract. |
| 17:53.07 | *** join/#openmoko TRIsoft (i=Mac@p57A2B94F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 17:53.07 | cjb | with openmoko, you're paying a non-subsidised price for the phone, so they don't have anything to protect. |
| 17:54.06 | Mortimus | even at the mass market stage? |
| 17:55.06 | Morgreet | Mortimus: providers can't lock a phone that you've bought yourself. They only lock phones that they sell at a below-cost price subsidized by the long-term contract. And in some countries they're not even allowed to do that. |
| 17:55.07 | xkr47 | subsidising an open phone is like selling your soul to be free :) |
| 17:55.23 | SpeedEvil | Of course it's not. |
| 17:55.41 | SpeedEvil | Locking a phone to one provider, but still having a mostly open phone otherwise is quite reasonable. |
| 17:55.51 | SpeedEvil | If they significantly subsidise it. |
| 17:56.16 | xkr47 | :) |
| 17:56.49 | Mortimus | I did not know that other countries it is illegal to subsidize a phone |
| 17:56.53 | leventhal | Morgreet: I found out that if I pay full MSRP to a provider around here I still get a locked phone |
| 17:57.15 | Morgreet | leventhal: depends on the country. |
| 17:57.42 | leventhal | Yeah.. greatly pissed me off when I couldn't get Bell to unlock the phone I bought out of contract, full price |
| 17:57.48 | Mortimus | We will also be available in a retail stores and selected carriers around the world. It's going to be interesting in the us because people do not want to pay 350 for a phone they like that their provider subsidizes it |
| 17:58.12 | SpeedEvil | The provider may be willing to subsidise a locked phone on a phone contract, as they get call revenue, like they would with any other phone. No, they would not get a cut of MP3, or video downloads, ... but it could still attract some subsidy. |
| 17:58.20 | Morgreet | What's more, in general they won't sell you an unlocked phone unless you ask for it to be unlocked. Needless to say, they try to keep you tied to their service. |
| 17:58.28 | SpeedEvil | Also, I expect the $350 to possibly change. |
| 17:58.35 | SpeedEvil | For P2 |
| 17:58.36 | benJIman | SpeedEvil: Why does the provider need a locked phone? |
| 17:58.49 | SpeedEvil | So that you can only make calls over their service. |
| 17:58.50 | benJIman | SpeedEvil: they just make you sign a contract for a year and then they don't need it locked |
| 17:58.50 | Mortimus | If they didn't there would be a lot less kids (18+) having cell phones |
| 17:59.14 | benJIman | SpeedEvil: Here contracts generally include enough free calls that you'd never go over anyway |
| 17:59.15 | SpeedEvil | And so that once the contract is over, you have a little more than inertia to stop you switching. |
| 17:59.24 | Morgreet | benJIman: in part justified recoupment of its cost over time, and in part greed once their outlay has been recouped. |
| 17:59.27 | SpeedEvil | (the unlock fee) |
| 17:59.45 | Mortimus | I heard that if you call cingular 90 days after contract they will give you the unlock code. |
| 17:59.47 | *** part/#openmoko chyort_ (n=ChyortVo@66.83.238.170.nw.nuvox.net) |
| 18:00.00 | benJIman | SpeedEvil: noone just switches anyway, they get a new contract with a new free phone |
| 18:00.02 | SpeedEvil | Subsidised phones can be a good or a bad deal depending on provider and phone and circumstances. |
| 18:00.15 | SpeedEvil | It also greatly varies by market. |
| 18:00.19 | benJIman | Usually the same company offers a new phone, or they lose people |
| 18:00.24 | xkr47 | in finland almost everybody has a phone and yet subsidising was legalized only ~one year ago |
| 18:00.35 | xkr47 | including kids from age 5 and up |
| 18:00.44 | benJIman | Basically you pay off the phone over the period of the contract |
| 18:00.52 | SpeedEvil | Yeah - the neo is a possible interesting case - as software upgrades are free to the provider. |
| 18:00.54 | SpeedEvil | Largely. |
| 18:01.25 | Mortimus | and the user would be able to do software updates on their own |
| 18:01.29 | SpeedEvil | Yeah. |
| 18:01.36 | xkr47 | well surely openmoko could still be sold with branded stuff if somebody wanted, with the option to take them out if you know how |
| 18:01.44 | *** join/#openmoko frostschutz (n=frostsch@p54AC794C.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 18:01.48 | SpeedEvil | Though I want to be able to lock down phones that I buy, to give to dependants. |
| 18:02.00 | Mortimus | also if there was wifi the phone could auto-update |
| 18:02.22 | SpeedEvil | (hypothetical, no kids as yet) |
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| 18:02.27 | xkr47 | I hope the auto-update will use ssl certificates |
| 18:02.39 | xkr47 | otherwise we'll have hostile wifi stations faking the openmoko update site :) |
| 18:02.43 | Mortimus | anything can be done with enough programming knowledge |
| 18:02.54 | buz | in switzerland all subsized with contract phones are unlocked |
| 18:02.56 | buz | not an issue there |
| 18:03.11 | buz | and its the same for most of europe i believe |
| 18:03.24 | SpeedEvil | Some phones in the UK come with glued-in-sims. |
| 18:03.30 | buz | in fact, my gf uses one of my nearly free with contract phones with another carrier |
| 18:03.37 | SpeedEvil | Though AIUI, that's just '3' with their cheap PAYG 3G phones. |
| 18:03.40 | Mortimus | im getting a locked krzr as an intermediate (but I could unlock it myself) |
| 18:03.45 | buz | for me locked = sim locked |
| 18:03.59 | SpeedEvil | It's also possible to lock a phone to one network only. |
| 18:04.09 | buz | thats simlock yes |
| 18:04.12 | SpeedEvil | Put any other providers SIM in and it just won't work. |
| 18:04.20 | xkr47 | k |
| 18:04.28 | buz | done with prepay phones in most countries |
| 18:04.31 | SpeedEvil | Put the same providers (different) SIM in and it works fine. |
| 18:04.38 | *** part/#openmoko frostschutz (n=frostsch@p54AC794C.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 18:04.58 | buz | providers even encouraged me once to get a prepay phone when mine broke down and my contract was still running |
| 18:05.55 | Mortimus | that is the stupid logic |
| 18:06.01 | buz | why |
| 18:06.06 | buz | they make more money when i have a phone |
| 18:06.33 | buz | and doesnt really matter to them what sim i use in it now does it |
| 18:06.43 | Mortimus | you had a contract they should be able to offer you something |
| 18:06.55 | buz | sure, if i sold my soul for another 12 months |
| 18:07.23 | buz | which i decidedly didnt like |
| 18:09.19 | *** join/#openmoko zween_ (n=zween@80-47-249-244.lond-th.dynamic.dial.as9105.com) |
| 18:09.33 | Mortimus | that is a tough predicament |
| 18:10.03 | buz | luckily there are more and more MVNO popping up |
| 18:10.09 | buz | i just wait for the flat gprs MVNO now |
| 18:10.21 | Mortimus | i wonder since i had my phone only 9 months what they would like do with it. |
| 18:10.34 | Mortimus | what is gprs MVNO |
| 18:12.13 | buz | mobile virtual network operator |
| 18:12.27 | buz | basically a network that resells another carrier |
| 18:12.37 | noidd | btw, I inserted my "pay as you go" SIM card into my cingular phone and it failed. |
| 18:12.45 | noidd | "This SIM card cannot be used in this phone" |
| 18:12.57 | Eyedrops | ghey |
| 18:13.00 | noidd | I don't know if it is the SIM or the phone that is locked |
| 18:13.05 | noidd | I'll find out in a week or so. |
| 18:13.12 | Eyedrops | is it from the same provider? |
| 18:13.17 | noidd | Nope |
| 18:13.22 | Eyedrops | thats why |
| 18:13.26 | buz | never heard of locked sims |
| 18:13.32 | buz | that would be downright stupid |
| 18:13.52 | Eyedrops | the phone is locked to accept SIm's from only one provider |
| 18:14.32 | SpeedEvil | In the UK, on 3 - you can't swap your 3G SIM into a non 3G phone - or the barr it. |
| 18:14.43 | SpeedEvil | they barr |
| 18:14.55 | SpeedEvil | as their profit comes largely from 3G services. |
| 18:15.12 | *** join/#openmoko creepycrawly (n=creepy@62.135.86.112) |
| 18:16.00 | unknown_lamer | t-mo us's top end phone is still lower end than my three year old nokia 7610 and all |
| 18:16.12 | noidd | well, this SIM is pay as you go and the minute purchase mechanism is via the phone |
| 18:16.19 | unknown_lamer | eww |
| 18:16.25 | noidd | so it would make some sense fo tehm to do that too |
| 18:16.37 | unknown_lamer | it should be done network side |
| 18:16.39 | buz | if they had any clue, they allow web refill |
| 18:17.08 | SpeedEvil | The UK had problems with that - a while back. |
| 18:17.14 | SpeedEvil | Cellnet 'U' phones were very chippable. |
| 18:17.31 | SpeedEvil | As the minute tracking was on the phone. |
| 18:17.36 | buz | lol |
| 18:17.43 | SpeedEvil | Lots of people got free calls. |
| 18:17.53 | SpeedEvil | Witht he aid of a PIC. |
| 18:18.02 | buz | serves them right |
| 18:18.08 | buz | never trust equipment in the hand of the customers |
| 18:18.14 | leventhal | Heh |
| 18:18.20 | leventhal | I just use a callback |
| 18:20.18 | *** join/#openmoko pvanhoof (n=pvanhoof@d54C0EE14.access.telenet.be) |
| 18:20.47 | unknown_lamer | up until a year and a half ago I was able to use my m2m minutes to call anyone by connecting to voice mail and using the "return this call" feature :-) |
| 18:21.21 | Eyedrops | that is a pretty sweet loophole |
| 18:22.49 | leventhal | Heh.. I'm lucky enough to have free incoming on my phone plan, and my employer operates a callback server |
| 18:23.13 | leventhal | So if I'm near the limit of my minutes I just use the callback server and call for free |
| 18:23.23 | Eyedrops | i need to boot into windows to back up my contacts :( |
| 18:23.26 | buz | there's still plans where you pay for incoming? unbelievable |
| 18:23.36 | Eyedrops | a callback server would be like a gateway |
| 18:23.38 | leventhal | buz: Yeah.. I know.. almost every plan in canada is that way. |
| 18:23.48 | leventhal | I only know of two that have free incoming |
| 18:24.09 | unknown_lamer | nowadays I use like 15 minutes a month |
| 18:24.18 | unknown_lamer | and 250-300M over gprs |
| 18:24.23 | unknown_lamer | $20 for unlimited mmm |
| 18:24.32 | leventhal | Heh.. ~100 minutes and 40mb gprs here |
| 18:32.52 | *** join/#openmoko Virtuall (n=virtuall@who.is.virtuall.info) |
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| 19:13.44 | *** part/#openmoko felipefonseca (n=felipe@200.162.214.16.user.ajato.com.br) |
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| 19:27.22 | LaF0rge | yeah, editing multiple bugs doesn't work |
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| 20:52.49 | buz | http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/weblogsinc/engadgetmobile/~3/88197948/ but it being broadcom i'd really doubt linux drivers... |
| 20:57.20 | tg | counters |
| 20:57.36 | tg | counter |
| 20:57.36 | aloril | 3 days 09:02:23 (3.377 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 3 days (31.377 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 3 days (215.377 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (175) |
| 20:57.40 | tg | ah |
| 20:57.48 | xkr47 | 1.337 coming soon :) |
| 20:58.15 | tg | ;) |
| 20:58.23 | thresh | how can one surely know someone's a developer ? |
| 21:00.06 | Clint | that's 3,377 beats in swatch internet time |
| 21:00.08 | Elrond | thresh - You can't. |
| 21:00.41 | thresh | so, being a developer, i can order one ? |
| 21:01.20 | buz | no |
| 21:01.25 | buz | developers get them |
| 21:01.25 | xkr47 | please read *ANYBODY* again |
| 21:01.28 | thresh | :) |
| 21:01.38 | buz | you can order one in march |
| 21:02.37 | Elrond | Anybody can order one. Wether they use it as paper weight or for developing is up to them. |
| 21:03.01 | buz | well in march you should be able to use it as phone |
| 21:03.27 | Elrond | I hope so. :) |
| 21:03.29 | xkr47 | paperweight might be in beta still then ;) |
| 21:03.30 | buz | it might occasionally not do what it is supposed to but in general, it should work for what i understand |
| 21:03.41 | buz | xkr47: lol |
| 21:05.09 | buz | why cant i find some cheap low power board with 4sata ports... |
| 21:05.14 | buz | and gigabit |
| 21:05.23 | Elrond | xkr47 - *lol* |
| 21:06.34 | SpeedEvil | oops |
| 21:06.46 | thedaniel | wrong channel? |
| 21:06.50 | SpeedEvil | Indeed. |
| 21:06.59 | buz | now you scare me |
| 21:07.19 | xkr47 | poor false got no hugs |
| 21:07.51 | *** join/#openmoko Matt_PI__ (n=chatzill@209.198.66.141) |
| 21:07.56 | Elrond | biI wonder, wether roaming will work in march. ;) |
| 21:08.08 | buz | ? |
| 21:08.20 | buz | why wouldnt it |
| 21:08.27 | buz | the gsm module should take care of that |
| 21:08.30 | *** join/#openmoko pleemans (n=peter@d51A5E76A.access.telenet.be) |
| 21:08.44 | xkr47 | maybe he means something non-gsm related |
| 21:09.10 | xkr47 | roaming contacts? |
| 21:09.33 | xkr47 | yeah I was thinking of that |
| 21:09.46 | NAiL | doesn't that kind of certification take months? |
| 21:09.54 | SpeedEvil | Yes, and funds. |
| 21:10.01 | xkr47 | I hope the AT command set does not include any commands to adjust gsm sending power |
| 21:10.18 | SpeedEvil | VEry unlikely. |
| 21:10.26 | xkr47 | well.. after all they're *selling* those phones with windowze installed to china as well |
| 21:10.32 | SpeedEvil | That'll likely all be on the closed side. |
| 21:10.45 | SpeedEvil | China doesn't really need much approval though. |
| 21:10.48 | xkr47 | I don't know when, but I'd certainly believe they will need to certify the phone soon |
| 21:10.52 | SpeedEvil | And the approvals process is _much_ simpler. |
| 21:10.52 | xkr47 | oh |
| 21:11.08 | koen | NAiL: guess why phase 2 is months away |
| 21:11.09 | SpeedEvil | I.E. hand $many to appropriate official. |
| 21:11.19 | xkr47 | "sure, it sends at 1kW, but it works great 100km out at sea when you are fishing!" |
| 21:11.48 | Elrond | buz - I meant choosing the provider for the roaming. |
| 21:12.07 | xkr47 | well.. I don't think they have some unsafe gsm chip in there just to be swamped with fcc problems in the summer |
| 21:12.08 | Elrond | buz - Some phones can be switched from automatic choosing to manual, etc. |
| 21:12.42 | koen | xkr47: FWIW, gsm is limited to 30km, due to maximum RTT |
| 21:12.51 | xkr47 | I was kidding :) |
| 21:13.08 | xkr47 | is 30km typically 2W sending efficiency ? |
| 21:13.17 | SpeedEvil | No. |
| 21:13.23 | SpeedEvil | For 30Km, you'd need an antenna. |
| 21:13.35 | SpeedEvil | An antenna pointed at the cell. |
| 21:13.43 | Elrond | Oh, there is socket for external antenna, right? |
| 21:13.47 | SpeedEvil | Dunno. |
| 21:13.57 | xkr47 | :) |
| 21:14.03 | koen | 20m? |
| 21:14.05 | Elrond | *lol* |
| 21:14.11 | SpeedEvil | 20m dish, maybe. |
| 21:14.11 | koen | how many lambda is that? |
| 21:14.16 | SpeedEvil | (though there would be no point) |
| 21:14.50 | *** join/#openmoko PhilKC (i=greece@freenode/staff/about.linux.philkc) |
| 21:15.01 | xkr47 | dish washer |
| 21:15.07 | xkr47 | Senior Dish Washer |
| 21:15.23 | xkr47 | (guy cleaning the immense dishes :) |
| 21:16.28 | koen | reminds me of the story how they discovered cosmic background noise |
| 21:16.41 | koen | "must be birdshit on the dish, lets clean it" |
| 21:17.02 | koen | 2 days of cleaning later "it's still there, lets write a paper about it" |
| 21:17.52 | buz | papers like that either give nobel prizes or make you look like a complete idiot |
| 21:17.52 | Elrond | *lol* |
| 21:18.26 | Elrond | Okay, so I should write a paper on the hoping NMR-line ;o) |
| 21:18.39 | xkr47 | was the discovered noise from the guy cleaning birdshit ?-) |
| 21:18.42 | Elrond | s/p/pp/ |
| 21:19.00 | Elrond | apt, botsnack |
| 21:19.00 | apt | thanks, Elrond |
| 21:31.37 | *** join/#openmoko esden (n=esden@p54995159.dip.t-dialin.net) |
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| 22:15.53 | xkr47 | counter |
| 22:15.53 | aloril | 3 days 07:44:06 (3.322 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 3 days (31.322 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 3 days (215.322 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (176) |
| 22:16.05 | xkr47 | doh, I missed the 31.337 timestamp |
| 22:16.27 | *** join/#openmoko wbx_ (n=wbx@gprs-pool-1-016.eplus-online.de) |
| 22:17.06 | Stephmw | xkr47: best hand in your geek card then |
| 22:24.15 | zipola | It's like waiting for Christmas when I was a child. |
| 22:25.05 | xkr47 | :) |
| 22:26.17 | *** join/#openmoko behdad (n=behdad@204.11.230.174.static.etheric.net) |
| 22:31.52 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w|usa (n=bob@adsl-69-224-56-189.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net) |
| 22:34.00 | rob_w|usa | hi all |
| 22:34.04 | rob_w|usa | anyone recieved his sample already ? |
| 22:34.11 | SpeedEvil | counter |
| 22:34.11 | aloril | 3 days 07:25:48 (3.310 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 3 days (31.310 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 3 days (215.310 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (177) |
| 22:34.17 | woglinde | rob *g* |
| 22:34.19 | SpeedEvil | Prolly at least a week. |
| 22:35.05 | rob_w|usa | oh so thats the day when they get shipped out ?? so it will be more like next week when they arive |
| 22:35.22 | rob_w|usa | i thought the mail said the 4th is the shipping day |
| 22:36.08 | woglinde | rob no sunday the 11th |
| 22:36.27 | woglinde | with dhl at least to germany |
| 22:37.45 | SpeedEvil | Hmm. 3 days does take it to the weekend. |
| 22:37.46 | woglinde | I hope the toll will make no stress |
| 22:38.30 | SpeedEvil | The 4th is sunday. |
| 22:38.38 | SpeedEvil | Do any carriers at all accept stuff on sunday? |
| 22:38.42 | SpeedEvil | Oh - hang on. |
| 22:38.45 | rob_w|usa | woglinde, they better dont otherwise i will go crazy |
| 22:38.50 | SpeedEvil | It's shipping from .tw isn't it. |
| 22:38.54 | woglinde | thats what mickeyl asked too :) |
| 22:39.02 | woglinde | speedevil yes |
| 22:39.07 | woglinde | from .tw |
| 22:39.14 | SpeedEvil | I don't know how they regard sunday. |
| 22:39.19 | jiffyjeff | is there a svn/cvs repository available w/ the openmoko platform? |
| 22:39.39 | woglinde | in german forum someone wrote the march stuff will be send form europe |
| 22:39.58 | woglinde | jiffy theire was a counter |
| 22:40.05 | jiffyjeff | counter |
| 22:40.05 | aloril | 3 days 07:19:54 (3.305 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 3 days (31.305 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 3 days (215.305 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (178) |
| 22:40.20 | xkr47 | countress |
| 22:40.21 | woglinde | hehe aeh yes |
| 22:40.28 | woglinde | i meant the website |
| 22:41.33 | jiffyjeff | just out of curiosity, does anyone know why there is a wait for the source to be released? |
| 22:41.55 | woglinde | dont know |
| 22:42.18 | woglinde | I think they are working on it |
| 22:42.25 | wbx_ | jiffyjeff: to keep the attraction high :} |
| 22:43.12 | jiffyjeff | i am digging around looking for some information on the software platform... is this thing real, or vaporware? |
| 22:43.16 | SpeedEvil | http://www.post.gov.tw/post/internet/u_english/aon_dtl.jsp?ID=1302&prsb_no=012100-6 says that at least some .tw post offices are open on a sunday. |
| 22:43.20 | SpeedEvil | It's real. |
| 22:43.27 | SpeedEvil | There is actual hardware out there. |
| 22:43.35 | SpeedEvil | The people that have it are under NDA. |
| 22:43.38 | woglinde | jiffy its real |
| 22:43.57 | SpeedEvil | Actual hardware will prolly hit lots of people ~50 in around a week. |
| 22:45.39 | *** join/#openmoko rwhitby (n=rwhitby@nslu2-linux/rwhitby) |
| 22:46.40 | [g2] | jiffyjeff my understanding is the SW will be OpenEmbedded based |
| 22:47.02 | woglinde | g2 hm its gtk based |
| 22:47.08 | woglinde | the buildsystem is oe |
| 22:47.18 | [g2] | woglinde nod |
| 22:47.19 | *** join/#openmoko dilinger (n=dilinger@wireless-19-55.media.mit.edu) |
| 22:47.49 | [g2] | woglinde isn't it gtk 2.4+ ? |
| 22:48.24 | [g2] | there was some mention about that a while ago... It's only a couple of days away |
| 22:49.10 | woglinde | .tw? |
| 22:49.18 | [g2] | UTC+11 ? UTC-12 ? |
| 22:49.33 | Clint | are they going to release at 0:00? |
| 22:49.47 | [g2] | dunno |
| 22:49.57 | Clint | seems unlikely |
| 22:50.40 | rwhitby | 23:59.59, HST. |
| 23:00.46 | rob_w|usa | [g2], i bet it is later then 2.8 |
| 23:09.31 | *** join/#openmoko Morgreet (n=morgaine@cpc1-hem13-0-0-cust961.lutn.cable.ntl.com) |
| 23:09.43 | *** join/#openmoko gabaug (i=gburt@nat/ibm/x-04b9fed3e633d8fc) |
| 23:21.51 | *** join/#openmoko emulsion (n=emulsion@cpe-071-065-217-026.nc.res.rr.com) |
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| 23:27.59 | *** join/#openmoko terrex (n=terrex@84-122-65-39.onocable.ono.com) |
| 23:30.28 | emulsion | anyone here have the neo1973 in hand yet? |
| 23:31.01 | *** join/#openmoko ag (n=ag@caladan.roxor.cx) |
| 23:31.16 | SuN | The ones that do are probably not allowed to disclose anything anyway. |
| 23:31.52 | emulsion | yea, I didn't think about that, just wanna know overall impressions. Is it still available on 3/11? |
| 23:32.06 | SuN | counter |
| 23:32.06 | aloril | 3 days 06:27:53 (3.269 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 3 days (31.269 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 3 days (215.269 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (179) |
| 23:32.28 | SuN | No contradiction yet. |
| 23:32.50 | emulsion | cool |
| 23:33.24 | emulsion | will preorders be available before 3/11? |
| 23:33.31 | SpeedEvil | Probably. |
| 23:33.35 | emulsion | thx |
| 23:33.40 | SpeedEvil | That's why they call them preorders :) |
| 23:34.56 | emulsion | I guess I should think about getting a sim |
| 23:35.43 | emulsion | will I need a certain type of sim card? |
| 23:36.11 | emulsion | or got any recommendations? If you can't already tell, I'm kinda a phone newb |
| 23:36.35 | SuN | Any sim will do, I guess. |
| 23:37.08 | *** join/#openmoko terrex (n=terrex@84-122-65-39.onocable.ono.com) |
| 23:38.01 | *** join/#openmoko julle_ (n=Raztafar@81-231-126-97-no15.tbcn.telia.com) |
| 23:38.24 | julle_ | hi everyone |
| 23:38.28 | SuN | Hi |
| 23:38.28 | emulsion | but don't some have more memory/storage than others, what's it up to now 256kb |
| 23:38.30 | julle_ | just saw the openmoko phone |
| 23:38.37 | julle_ | on the net |
| 23:38.40 | julle_ | WOW |
| 23:38.49 | julle_ | i am so excited |
| 23:39.12 | emulsion | so are we |
| 23:39.41 | SuN | :) |
| 23:39.46 | SuN | It's something else alright. |
| 23:39.46 | julle_ | so where do i start from here if i wanna know more about the phone, i've been reading on openmoko.com |
| 23:40.54 | SuN | emacsen: well... you can try to get a bigger sim and copy a sim you get from your provider to it or something, but my experience is that sim cards aren't that interesting. |
| 23:41.41 | SuN | julle_: if you like, you can go through the mailing lists. If you're done, you can sit here and wait, venting your frustrations about the deadline being so far away, like the rest of us ;) |
| 23:41.47 | *** join/#openmoko emulsion_ (n=emulsion@cpe-071-065-217-026.nc.res.rr.com) |
| 23:42.31 | emulsion_ | can I just buy a sim on ebay, call a provider and sign up for service? I'm in the US so this can be a pain |
| 23:42.53 | julle_ | SuN hehe okey, when have they said the deadline is supposed to be? |
| 23:43.11 | maydaytx | 5 years |
| 23:43.29 | SuN | I'm not entirely up to date on the situation in the US, but I've never seen sims for sale which aren't already active with a subscription, apart from the useless ones. |
| 23:43.31 | rwhitby | julle_: I hope you've read the links in the /topic before asking questions here ... |
| 23:43.32 | SuN | counter |
| 23:43.32 | aloril | 3 days 06:16:28 (3.261 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 3 days (31.261 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 3 days (215.261 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (180) |
| 23:43.46 | emulsion_ | julle, have you seen the lame youtube interview video? |
| 23:43.58 | SuN | emacsen: what I would do here is get a prepaid package, not sure if those are available in the US. |
| 23:44.45 | emulsion_ | I think they are, prolly a good idea |
| 23:45.37 | SuN | To be honest I've never heard of anyone calling a provider asking to activate a custom sim, since a sim isn't worth a lot. |
| 23:45.49 | SuN | It's the subscription/connection to the network that's important. |
| 23:46.23 | SuN | It'd be interesting to try though :) |
| 23:46.24 | Clint | i'm sure it would confuse the hell out of the call center |
| 23:46.37 | emulsion_ | I think you're correct, and I don't wanna talk to a call center rep |
| 23:47.00 | Clint | just pay the $35 for a new sim with your subscription |
| 23:48.05 | emulsion_ | k |
| 23:48.55 | SuN | If you're lucky, they'll include a phone. |
| 23:49.34 | Clint | and not bind you to a 3-year contract |
| 23:51.34 | *** join/#openmoko sjoerd_ (n=sjoerd@tunnel3460.ipv6.xs4all.nl) |
| 23:51.59 | emulsion_ | any thoughts on skype or voip with this? maybe just whilst at home? |
| 23:52.21 | Clint | people have been discussing the relative merits of voip over gprs |
| 23:52.22 | SpeedEvil | Skype - no. |
| 23:52.28 | SpeedEvil | Way too much bandwidth. |
| 23:52.38 | SpeedEvil | Not to mention no binary for the platform. |
| 23:52.50 | SpeedEvil | voip - it might sort-of work over GPRS. |
| 23:53.01 | SpeedEvil | Especially if you are in a little used portion of the network. |
| 23:53.13 | SpeedEvil | Or are willing to go to push to talk mode, where latancy isn't so important. |
| 23:53.32 | SpeedEvil | In some places, it'll probably work well. |
| 23:53.38 | SpeedEvil | In others practically not at all. |
| 23:54.06 | Clint | i'm surprised that 1500ms latency is even tenable |
| 23:54.26 | SpeedEvil | It's not hopelessly useless for browsing. |
| 23:54.36 | SpeedEvil | Considering most pages'll take seconds to download anyway. |
| 23:54.40 | SpeedEvil | many seconds |
| 23:55.15 | SpeedEvil | Hmm. |
| 23:55.21 | Clint | voice browsing? |
| 23:55.54 | Clint | i know people that do SIP over transatlantic links and it's not supposed to be all that good |
| 23:55.55 | SpeedEvil | Prolly not - though the encryption for the UK-US link was similar. |
| 23:55.59 | julle_ | emulsion no sry a little late in the conversation, but i have not seen the lame interview in youtube. please hook me up with a link |
| 23:56.35 | emulsion_ | just search youtube for openmoko |
| 23:57.18 | emulsion_ | http://youtube.com/watch?v=jRvtAAXTIlg |
