irclog2html for #openmoko on 20070207

00:03.38MorgreetLOL.  Viacom has a script running that checks YouTube video titles against copyrighted film title names and matches on any single word ... then automatically sends YouTube a takedown notice.
00:03.51MorgreetSome people really deserve a good kicking.
00:07.22MorgreetHow did the MPAA and RIAA get such a concentration of community-hating lawyers anyway ...
00:07.40rwhitbyisn't that phrase a tautology?
00:08.20MorgreetYes, but I was focussing on the *concentration* aspect :P
00:08.40MorgreetOops, he's gone.
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01:06.36pvanhoofhttp://tinymail.org/demos/tinymail_doing_lemonade_idle.mpg
01:36.05SpeedEvill/window size 10
01:36.08SpeedEvilsigh
01:39.28pvanhoofhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFBqqdIghz0
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02:55.59alorilnick count records: 106 2006-12-04; 108 2006-12-07; 109 2006-12-12; 114 2006-12-13; 116 2006-12-20; 134 2007-01-11; 141 2007-01-12; 143 2007-01-13; 157 2007-01-15; 163 2007-01-16 ; 182 2007-01-17; 185 2007-01-19 ; 197 2007-01-20 ; 201 2007-01-21; 205 2007-01-22; 206 2007-01-23; 211 2007-01-25; 215 2007-01-26; 219 2007-02-01; 228 2007-02-05; 231 2007-02-06
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03:03.45SpeedEvilI want to see 2007/10 numbers...
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03:11.35alorilhehe, channel is near top of 31-40 list: http://irc.netsplit.de/channels/?net=freenode&query=&num=30 (was number one entry yesterday)
03:13.21alorilhmm.. moving to 1..10 page requires only 'doubling' ;-)
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04:16.44rwhitbyaloril: I'd like to see stats on the number of people in the channel who have sent a certain mumber of messages - e.g. 196 people in channel, but only 20 of those are 'active'.
04:16.54rwhitby(and the other 176 are lurking)
04:18.03alorilrwhitby: OK, I will add another thing to: automatic answer to wifi/camera questions (ie.. nick has never said anything and it matches wifi.
04:18.11alorilwifi.*\?
04:18.21cbpagewifi!  
04:18.24cbpage(kidding)
04:19.16alorilaccording to quick test this seems to be most of time relevant: wifi + \? in same line by nick not having talked before almost always means that (s)he is asking about wifi
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04:23.49ioneonhello test
04:24.01alorilhi ioneon
04:27.40rwhitbyaloril: I was more thinking about a histogram of the number of messages sent by each nick who has ever been connected to the channel, and then apply a cut-off point to identify 'active' participants vs drop-ins or lurkers.
04:28.06rwhitbysomeone who says 'wifi' 50 times a day would still be marked as active :-)
04:28.17rwhitby(annoyingly active)
04:28.25Zer0her0wifi
04:28.31Zer0her0?
04:28.33Zer0her0wifi
04:28.35Zer0her0:-D
04:29.49Agrajag-by doing all those things you're just making this channel a monkey ground. how about you put those stats up on some site, instead of announcing it here with triggers and stuff all the time, that way people who are interested can look, and those who aren't don't have to see it all the time
04:31.45alorilAgrajag-: about stats, yeah, no sense to talk unless there actually is something new
04:32.06alorilAgrajag-: about wifi.*\? trigger: I think 80% of time it would be right reaction
04:32.32aloril(ie.. when somebody who has never talked matches above, it means (s)he is actually asking wifi)
04:34.15rwhitbyAgrajag-: I wasn't suggesting the stats would be triggered - a web site would be best.
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04:34.40Agrajag-yeah.. but im talking about the counter and nick count records as well
04:34.48rwhitbynod
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04:35.55alorilquite often counter is requested here when somebody asks "when" (and I don't know easy good regex for that)
04:36.14alorilbut yeah, website too would be good
04:37.26alorilabout nick count records, maybe I should do that only when there is significant differentce (ie.. 3 more is not enough, %10 increase is interesting)
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04:53.34aloriltalk+action stats: 8 nicks >= 1000, 78 nicks >= 100, 337 nicks >= 10, 677 nicks >=1 (from 2006-12-04)
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05:17.04alorilnow plain "wifi?" and "camera?" triggers canned answers
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05:18.02hadswifi?
05:18.02alorilWhen version 1 was designed there was no sufficiently low-power WiFi chip available which has an open driver. You can attach (battery) powered USB hub to Neo1973 and then use supported WiFi USB stick. For more information see http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/InternetAccess
05:18.03test_newbieOMG, there is no WIfi, is that right?
05:18.36test2_newbieOMG, there is no camera, this phones is useless?
05:18.43alorilhmm..
05:19.01kjshifdsisdOMG, there is no camera, this phones is useless?
05:19.19alorilbah, it worked in another channel, back to testing ;-)
05:19.30hads:)
05:21.31test3_newbieOMG, there is no camera, this phones is useless?
05:21.31alorilThere is no camera included. With (battery) powered USB hub, you should be able to attach to (almost) any external camera. See http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/Hardware for details on what is included.
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05:23.39SpeedEvilwifi?
05:23.39alorilWhen version 1 was designed there was no sufficiently low-power WiFi chip available which has an open driver. You can attach (battery) powered USB hub to Neo1973 and then use supported WiFi USB stick. For more information see http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/InternetAccess
05:24.02alorilwhoever, this does not trigger, unless you are newbie, wifi?
05:24.24alorilre.match(r".*wifi.*\?", cmd.lower()) and nick not in nick_stats
05:24.26SpeedEvilstar-trek-replicator?
05:24.31aloril(and same for camera)
05:24.34alorilSpeedEvil: hehe
05:24.44hadsI've already matched wifi?
05:24.51hadsExcellent
05:25.00alorilhads: you have already talked something ;-)
05:25.04SpeedEvilmaybe add wireless?
05:26.17hadsaloril: Yup, just testing :)
05:27.01*** join/#openmoko maydaytx (i=johndoe@cpe-67-9-70-44.hot.res.rr.com)
05:27.16SpeedEvilIMO, it's got at least three variables - attraction to males, attraction to females, attraction to anyone that'll stay still long enough.
05:27.18SpeedEviloops
05:27.46SpeedEvilOn topic, I think I've got funds for a month and a bits time :)
05:27.57alorilanyway, stats are not kept up to date (yet, if somebody says hi and then wifi? I want it to trigger)
05:28.33wimlwifi?
05:28.34alorilWhen version 1 was designed there was no sufficiently low-power WiFi chip available which has an open driver. You can attach (battery) powered USB hub to Neo1973 and then use supported WiFi USB stick. For more information see http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/InternetAccess
05:28.40wimlbah!
05:28.51alorilwiml: wifi? alone always triggers
05:28.55SpeedEvilavailable that had an
05:28.58wimloh, okay
05:29.05wimlblah blah blah blah blah wifi?
05:29.07wimlyeah
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05:29.19alorilthat is just easy way to answer, just like counter is easy for when?
05:29.27maydaytxwifi.
05:29.36wimlneat
05:31.28maydaytxis it $350 in march?
05:31.36SpeedEvilyes.
05:32.56alorilif cmd==keyword + "?" or (re.match(r".*%s.*\?" % keyword, cmd.lower()) and nick not in nick_stats):
05:33.01SpeedEvilI don't think the final price has been decided yet.
05:33.07aloriland nick_stats is counted when module is loaded
05:33.35alorilkeywords: wifi, camera, wireless
05:33.55SpeedEvil802.11?
05:33.59SpeedEvilprolly not.
05:34.21maydaytxso multitouch is being developed?
05:34.25maydaytxor nay
05:35.05alorilmaydaytx: in theory if there was multiple connections to display "cheap" multitouch would be possible, but .. I suspect v1 won't have even that
05:35.34wimlthere's a maillist posting somewhere saying that they think the hardware might be capable of multitouch, but it would require writing a driver that could do it
05:35.46maydaytxhttp://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2006-December/000576.html
05:35.53maydaytxthat the one youre talking about?
05:35.55alorilbut then there is still fake software possibility: if touch suddenly jumps, you can infer another finger touched
05:36.11wimlmaydaytx: yes
05:36.44wiml"a considerable driver effort" :/
05:36.53alorilwiml, maydaytx: I remember that too, but I think that requires 'multiple connections' or something like that, dunno if its there
05:37.10maydaytxwhat do you mean by multiple connections?
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05:37.49wimlI'm not even sure what touch-sensing technology it's using in the first place
05:37.58alorilresistive
05:37.59SpeedEvilIt'll be resistive film.
05:38.03SpeedEvilThat's the cheapest.
05:38.16SpeedEvilThe alternatives are all more expensive or bulkier.
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05:38.41SpeedEvilSAW would be really nice, as you could use a nice diamond coated screen glass.
05:39.21SpeedEvilRather than a plastic film that's pressed onto the screen and scratches to hell.
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05:40.22maydaytxwireless?
05:40.23alorilWhen version 1 was designed there was no sufficiently low-power WiFi chip available which has an open driver. You can attach (battery) powered USB hub to Neo1973 and then use supported WiFi USB stick. For more information see http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/InternetAccess
05:40.26wimlyeah, the whole case could be one block of vapor-depositied diamond
05:40.38alorilSpeedEvil: quoting you from 2007-01-25:
05:40.41aloril<SpeedEvil> Well. With this sort of touchscreen, you can sort of fake it.
05:40.41aloril<SpeedEvil> As you can - with a couple more electrodes get a bounding touch area
05:41.03SpeedEvilYes - however, that's unlikely.
05:41.23SpeedEvilas you don't do that unless you intend to implement it in this model.
05:41.36SpeedEvilI could be wrong. It does need more electronics
05:42.06alorilSpeedEvil: yeah, it I bet multitouch drivers/software will appear if hardware just supports it
05:42.32alorilthere is no need for phase0 or phase1 to have software multitouch support
05:43.42SpeedEvilWe'll prolly know in 10ish days.
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05:44.30maydaytxare you gonna be able to use the phone's bluetooth to access internet with an ethernet bridge?
05:44.34alorilpossibly even faster by looking at source
05:44.42cjbmaydaytx: of course; it's open-source.
05:44.43SpeedEvilOr open it up :)
05:45.10SpeedEvilUnfortunately, source often won't tell you about hardware features the source does not support.
05:45.33alorilSpeedEvil: true, but if it needs to do "averaging" in software, that would tell something
05:45.45wimlIf nothing else, the source will tell us what the touchscreen controller chip is, and we can hunt down its datasheet
05:45.55SpeedEvilNo, it won't.
05:46.01maydaytxcjb: that only works with certain bluetooth devices, doesnt it
05:46.08SpeedEvilIt may well be it's just an A/D chip.
05:46.17SpeedEvilWhich tells you nothing a bout how it's connected.
05:46.44alorilmaydaytx: if other side is linux, then any bluetooth dongle should work?
05:47.42wimlSpeedEvil: that's true, but my impression is that it's common to use a specialized touchscreen controller chip, which has whatever analog goo is needed etc. and maybe even does the conversion to x-y coordinates
05:47.50*** part/#openmoko behdad (n=behdad@209.172.123.250)
05:47.50wimlfewer components overall
05:48.08wimlbut yeah, if it's a nonspecialized chip then we're still kind of in the dark
05:48.41maydaytxi guess the relevant question is...does the bluetooth device support "Personal Area Network"
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05:55.01test4_newbieis it true that there is no camera?
05:55.02alorilThere is no camera included. With (battery) powered USB hub, you should be able to attach to (almost) any external camera. See http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/Hardware for details on what is included.
05:55.13test4_newbiecool, then I have better camera than any other phone ;-)
05:55.18aloril;-)
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06:03.11alorilcounter
06:03.11aloril4 days 23:56:49 (4.998 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11);  a month, 4 days (32.998 days) for devices for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11);  7 months, 4 days (216.998 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info
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06:22.59rd_counter
06:22.59aloril4 days 23:37:00 (4.984 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11);  a month, 4 days (32.984 days) for devices for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11);  7 months, 4 days (216.984 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info
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06:55.18CMaloril: Nicely done there with the camera and wifi answers :)
06:55.38alorilCM: thanks
06:56.28CMMaybe match "when" or "buy" to the counter trigger too..
06:57.30CM"When can I buy it?" or "Is it available in <country>" is also common first question.. As well as "cost"
06:57.44CMBut maybe not over do it ;)
07:00.16aloriladded "wi-fi?" (and .*wi-fi.*\?) too
07:02.57alorilumm.. when is used in too many other questions..., but available is maybe possibility: anyway, hand trigger by counter works, availability in different counters, hmm..
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07:15.14jeddy3wi-fi?
07:15.14alorilWhen version 1 was designed there was no sufficiently low-power WiFi chip available which has an open driver. You can attach (battery) powered USB hub to Neo1973 and then use supported WiFi USB stick. For more information see http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/InternetAccess
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07:25.33alorilprivate message for counter, etc.. should now also work
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08:24.22hrwgood thing is that in next few weeks we will have working gpl driver for marvell 8385 chipset
08:24.54koenyay!
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08:59.45roxthere has been a discussion on the mailing list
09:00.09roxthat the GSM chip has its own analog connection to the microphone
09:00.16roxsurely we can bypass that
09:01.00roxi would need to feed sound into the GSM chip, any ideas how this would be possible?
09:01.53roxthe only idea i had was this: microphone and a speaker are essentially the same device, so if you send a sound signal into the microphone, the GSM chip is simply going to pick it up
09:02.39XorArox: wait until Feb 11 and I will explain the whole sound system to you
09:02.48roxthis is rather messy, though, so i was wondering if there are better ideas floating around
09:03.49roxXorA: since you seem to know a lot about it, could you just confir that feeding sound into the GSM chip will be possible?
09:04.03roxs/confir/confirm/
09:04.26XorArox: you will be able to feed mp3 in if you wanted to
09:04.42roxXorA: great, that's what i wanted to hear
09:05.38koen"please hold..." *death metal* "thank you for holding"
09:05.45XorAkoen: :-D
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09:06.30XorAkoen: my friend and I used to have an answering machine that play O Fortuna (The Damien Music from Omen) with us saying we are out sacraficing virgins at the moment, please leave a messafe
09:06.48koenheh
09:06.54koenCarmina Burana?
09:06.59XorAkoen: yeah
09:07.26hrwXorA: where did you find virgins? :D
09:07.32koenI should have some other versions of that
09:07.38koenah, right, the Therion version
09:08.00XorAOrff
09:08.07XorAor however you spell it
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09:14.25XorAmono in OE, that'll make some neo owners happy
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09:15.17Eblisno compiler yet :(
09:16.42XorAEblis: you want to compile on a 200Mhz arm?
09:17.09Eblishehe, i know
09:17.14Eblisthat's why i don't think it's an issue yet
09:17.22Eblisalthough you have to do it once to get a file :(
09:18.14koenXorA: the java people seem to be keen on running everything through a JIT first
09:18.21koenso, yes, compiling on 200MHz
09:19.17hrwXorA: 266MHz iirc
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10:12.04MorgreetJust under 5 days to go ... woohoo!
10:14.03ecravenindeed :)
10:14.08ecravenand then another month :(
10:14.10koenFWIW: http://www.openembedded.org/filebrowser/org.openembedded.dev/packages/gpephone
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10:25.18tialcounter
10:25.18aloril4 days 19:34:41 (4.816 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11);  a month, 4 days (32.816 days) for devices for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11);  7 months, 4 days (216.816 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info
10:25.25tialiiiik
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10:38.07MorgreetLOL.  "RIAA says CDs should cost more."  (Slashdot)
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10:51.13CMSpeech recognition on mobiles by using a server to translate it: http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=37477
10:51.45CMNot oss, but the idea is nice. (Probably 100 US patents on it too)
10:52.15CMNuance claim that the compression gets the data down to 5kb/s
10:55.00CMCan the Neo use GPRS 3+2, meaning 60kbit/s down and 40kbit/s up?
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10:55.34CMI doubt it would be fast enough anyway
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11:04.59Stephmwthe latency is still an issue
11:05.21StephmwI've had latencies of up to 7s on average in a past project
11:05.25Stephmwon GPRS
11:06.10CMouch
11:06.43XorA7s is good :-)
11:07.06mjrsheesh
11:07.21mjrit's never nowhere near that bad here
11:07.31mjrperhaps just a function of lesser use per base station, I dunno
11:08.04CMI thing gmail-mobile works great over gprs
11:08.16CMs/thing/think/
11:09.16XorAmjr: Well when I go through mountains it can take almost 2 minutes for tcp packet to go through
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11:14.35MorgreetWe know the Neo is *loud*, but has any core developer commented on the sound quality when heard through top-quality headphones?  (Ie. is the analogue output circuitry reasonable?)
11:15.18CMI wonder about that too.. I'll use it as an mp3-player for sure
11:15.41hrwI would miss FM radio which I use in my current phone
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11:16.20MorgreetI bet 95% of purchasers will be listening to music on the go, even Phase 1 peeps, hence the question.
11:17.00koenwhich probably has the same wolfson chip as the neo
11:17.12XorAMorgreet: I have heard the headphones quality
11:17.53MorgreetOh, the digital sound is bound to be fine.  It's the analogue output that sometimes screws it up, if designed badly.
11:18.03hrwkoen: wm8753?
11:18.25koencould be
11:18.36MorgreetXorA: can you say anything about the quality?
11:18.39Morgreetk
11:18.58XorAMorgreet: Id like not to until I receive a final board
11:19.16XorAMorgreet: there is a lot of extra stuff hanginf off, and Ive got a kinda makeshift setup
11:19.16MorgreetXorA:  indeed, could change I suppose.
11:19.23hrwkoen: 8721 in 1st/2nd gen, 8731 in 3rd ipod gen
11:19.50raynethumm.. headphones quality.. is that bad or good :)
11:19.56CMAs long as you have 128kbit mp3's or so I don't think the phone will limit the quality
11:21.22MorgreetCM: you mean the opposite.  As long as you have lower than 128kbps MP3, then the phone won't limit quality.  The phone only limits the quality of high bitrate streams.
11:22.03CMMorgreet: True.. But I have almost all of my mp3's in 192 or higher
11:22.31CM64 or 96 sounds horrible, unless it's an audio-book or so
11:23.01MorgreetCM: aye, 128k is still discernibly different to the original through any kind of half-reasonable sound system.
11:24.30raynetyeah, 112kbps is absolutely the minimum for music, 160kbps for orchestral music. generally i prefer to encode at 192kbps
11:27.21MorgreetCan the micro-SD be read/written in an SD slot?
11:29.29hrwyes
11:29.32hrwwith adapter
11:29.36Morgreethttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MicroSD
11:29.48MorgreetYeah, just read it in that page
11:31.31ecravenare there self-powered (battery?) usb wifi cards?
11:33.11MorgreetDon't recall seeing one.  Most are just simple USB dongles, which we won't be able to use directly.
11:33.46ecravenwould it be feasible to provide a powered usb bus for v2?
11:33.51ecravenor is that just too much strain on the batteries?
11:34.38ecravenlet's use fuel cells <*g*>
11:35.38Morgreetv2 will have to be powered, or interest will plummet.  There's just too much you can't do with an unpowered USB.  Drain doesn't matter ... the user should decide whether to trade off battery life for outboard facilities.
11:36.31ecravenwhat kind of connectors does v1 have? 1 usb, 1 audio jack?
11:36.33MorgreetAnyway, it's just a good opportunity for FIC to market larger power packs as options.
11:37.22ecravendoes fic have a homepage? i couldn't find anything on google
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11:39.18hrwecraven: let me guess... www.fic.com.tw
11:43.20koengoogle 'fic' and it's the top link
11:43.45MorgreetThought I might have an adapter for it, but it turned out to be an SD device that your snap out for plugging the SD directly into a USB socket.  Very oddball.
11:46.15MorgreetUh oh:  (Wikipedia) -->  "Since all cards up to and including the 1 GB card uses a fixed 512 block size some device drivers do not handle the larger block size and will not even recognize the 2 GB card.[citation needed] Citation for this is more difficult as the SD organization hides this problem."
11:46.53hrw2GB cards also use fixed 512 block size
11:48.14MorgreetYeah, that's what it says on the WP page too, so the problem is for > 2G only.  That's prolly a typo in that quoted paragraph.
11:51.48MorgreetThe choice of SD/microSD for this open phone seems odd to me, since the SD spec is secret.  MMC would have made a lot more sense:  open, and available in larger sizes.
11:51.59SpeedEvilYou can if you are away from your authorised copy of the standard find it on edonkey.
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11:53.35SpeedEvilSDIO only happes with SD standard.
11:53.55MorgreetSpeedEvil: handy, since one wouldn't want to drag one's authorized copy around everywhere.
11:54.30XorASpeedEvil: you wouldnt happen to have a hash for that file?
11:54.43hrwMorgreet: MMC specification stopped on 128MB cards iirc...
11:54.45MorgreetSDIO becomes a bit irrelevant when the device is under the battery ;-)
11:54.55SpeedEvilNot compleltey.
11:55.00XorAthere is a GPL SDIO stack posed to enter the kernel anyway
11:55.02hrwMorgreet: newer MMC cards are more complex then SD ones iirc
11:55.18SpeedEvilIt's probably pretty easy to have a SD extender on a printed wire.
11:56.12SpeedEvilgoing round the battery.
11:56.13Morgreet"MMC cards are currently available in sizes up to and including 4 GB with 8 GB models announced but not yet available."
11:56.13SpeedEvilAre micro-mmc cards available?
11:56.15MorgreetYeah, "RS-MMC"
11:56.32hrw1st was MMC (1bit, up to 128MB), then SD came (1 or 4 bit, up to 2-4GB), then MMCv4 (1,4,8bit)
11:56.35SpeedEvilOf course the extender runs into the 'storage or wifi/...' preoblem.
11:56.46hrwthen rs-mmc, mmc-mobile, mini-sd, micro-sd
11:56.58hrwand few extra names like transflash etc
11:57.12SpeedEviltransflash = micro-sd?
11:57.47MorgreetThat's what WP says
11:57.56Morgreethttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SD_card
11:58.03Morgreethttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MultiMediaCard
11:58.13XorAMorgreet: yes it does (have a card in front of me)
11:59.22MorgreetXorA: trying to tie your Yes to a question, hehe
11:59.53XorAMorgreet: transflash == micro sd
12:00.10MorgreetXorA: that was SpeedEvil's question
12:00.12XorAMorgreet: I sent to wrong person :-)
12:00.17Morgreet:-)
12:02.14MorgreetWe'll have to build a list on the Wiki of which 2G micro-SD cards work on the Neo.
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12:02.32hrwMorgreet: its useless would be
12:02.57Morgreethrw: OK then, a list of which don't ;-)
12:03.00hrwMorgreet: many 'manufacturers' of cards just buy them from other companies and sell as own ones
12:03.13hrwMorgreet: same useless
12:03.18hrwI had few identical Kingston cards in hands
12:03.25Morgreethrw: how can it be useless to help people not buy a non-working card?
12:03.27hrwsome were Toshiba, some Hitachi
12:04.02SpeedEvilI think the point is that cards may change without notice ont he packet.
12:04.02hrwMorgreet: how to differ one red kingston from other red kingston when you cannot unpack it and check which brand it really is?
12:05.29Morgreethrw: Sounds like a "Some Kingston cards won't work with the Neo because they are rebranded XXX" then.  Info helps.  I'd stay away from Kingston if I knew that.
12:06.03SpeedEvilI don't think it's limited to one.
12:06.12SpeedEvilkignston
12:06.29hrwit can be any brand
12:06.43MorgreetOnly if bought from a rebrander.
12:08.43XorAI know 512M kingston works with NEo :-)
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12:09.10hrwXorA: argh you
12:09.21MorgreetWill the Neo boot from the micro-SD out of the box, given an appropriate image on it?  (I'm assuming it comes empty, and boots from the 64M flash by default)
12:09.33hrwMorgreet: it can boot from sd
12:09.53MorgreetSuper
12:10.23MorgreetI'll start looking around for an adapter to full-size SD.
12:10.44SpeedEvilMany micro-sd cards come witht hem.
12:11.23MorgreetAha, even better.  Like the small memory sticks do too.
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12:40.22MorgreetWolfson WM8753: "External component requirements are reduced as no separate microphone or headphone amplifiers are required, and Cap-less connections can be made to all loads."
12:40.44MorgreetSo I guess we can assume headphone quality will be as good as on any other gadget that uses that chip.
12:41.03SpeedEvilIs that the audio output chip?
12:41.13MorgreetSeems to be, yeah.
12:41.32MorgreetAccording to OM's WP entry
12:41.43SpeedEvilIt depends.
12:41.57SpeedEvilPower supply and feeding quality may not be as high as they should be.
12:42.01SpeedEvilBut generally, yes.
12:42.11MorgreetGood point, yeah.
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12:58.34MorgreetWhen I upgraded my dbus here recently to v1, a lot of packages ended up having to be revdepped afterwards.  OM uses 0.9 according to Sean's page ... does that mean we'll be maintaining that version throughout product lifetime?  Or that we'll have a rather large revdep upgrade at some point?
12:59.58Morgreethttp://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-January/000000.html
13:00.11hrwit will be bumped to 1.0.2
13:00.12Morgreet"dbus 0.9"
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13:04.28MorgreetHopefully before September then.  Because upgrading all the packages that have dependencies on 0.9 on Mom+Dad phones will not be much fun.
13:10.16buzmhh nokia e90 might appear at 3GSM
13:10.27buznow THAT phone with linux i'd buy in a heartbeat
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13:12.45Stephmwall I can say is... don't hold your breath
13:12.56hrwMorgreet: I see that in this way: now we will get ssytem which works. then we (devs) will  some stuff, update other and prepare system which will works nice. then users will get this
13:14.08rayneti guess when Openmoko becomes available for the masses, Benefon will open their gsm-phone platform, or go out of business
13:14.15raynets/guess/hope
13:15.04Morgreethrw: indeed.  That's why I suggested dbus-1 before September.  We can cope with rather wide-ranging upgrades, but it's scary for Joe Bloggs.
13:15.21hrwcu
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13:19.11Morgreetbuz: what I'd like to see is a *modular* open phone.  Ie. slots for optional modules inside, so that you can mix'n'match any devices you want in the gadget, including GSM, 3G, wifi, 2ndary power, Ethernet, Firewire, thumb drive, VGA adapter, etc etc ...
13:19.34SpeedEvilDoesn't really work.
13:19.58SpeedEvilYou end up losing horrible, horrible amounts of volumes to the fixed sizes.
13:20.04raynetyup
13:20.29raynetwith non-modular design you can integrate all features in a chip or two and make it smaller and more power efficient
13:20.37raynetand cheaper too
13:21.22SpeedEvilIt's not really that - more that without modules, you can more or less put the bits in a (virtual) case, and bang on it with a hammer, till they all fit, even in strange positions.
13:21.45MorgreetCheaper yes, smaller yes.  More power efficient no ... within such a localized form factor, you wouldn't need driver power for the plugs.
13:21.54raynetand you can get a open phone already, just buy PC/104 board and required extension cards (GSM/Firewire/Whatnot)
13:22.04SpeedEvilYeah :)
13:22.22SpeedEvilAnd the battery life with a car battery is awesome!
13:22.26MorgreetBe serious.  I know PC/104, and that was a silly suggestion.
13:22.52SpeedEvilThe next great trend, phones integrating excersize machines.
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13:23.46MorgreetSpeedEvil: well they can certainly control exercise machines.  After all, we were talking about controlling Bluetooth vibrators yesterday ;-)
13:24.00SpeedEvilThe only sort-of option that works not too badly is vertical stacking of modules that make the phone as a whole thicker.
13:24.19SpeedEvilAnd even that has horrible issues.
13:25.48SpeedEvilNot to mention all the fun of all those connectors, which will bounce, oxidise, ...
13:26.16raynetwe need a phone that has just a GSM-module (as it needs to be approved by FCC whatnot), maybe bluetooth/wifi and then just one huge or couple smaller FGPAs, now that would be truely open and customizable phone
13:26.41SpeedEvilAnd a large battery.
13:26.52SpeedEvilFPGAs are not especially power efficient.
13:26.56mjrahh, the fgpa strikes back
13:27.16raynetSpeedEvil: oh, i was thinking of running of the grid, not with batteries (they are optional customization)
13:27.38SpeedEvilWhat is really needed is a couple of large reels, to attach the external turing tape.
13:27.46so_solid_mooa mobile phone with optional batteries?
13:27.52MorgreetSpeedEvil: connector technology solved those problems ages ago.  I have 20-year old DIN41612 plugs and sockets that are still working perfectly.
13:28.01SpeedEvilRight.
13:28.09raynetso_solid_moo: you can still move it (thus mobile) even if it doesnt function :)
13:28.26SpeedEvilNow make them a hundred connectors wide, that fit in a space 20*2*1mm
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13:29.28raynetwhat is the current status of wireless-USB and/or Firewire? that would solve, atleast in theory, all connectivity and expandability problems
13:30.10MorgreetWhat's wireless USB?
13:30.46raynet"Wireless USB is a short-range, high-bandwidth wireless extension to USB that combines the speed and ease-of-use of USB 2.0 with the convenience of wireless technology."
13:31.00MorgreetWP?
13:31.17raynetWUSB
13:31.27MorgreetYep, on WP -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_USB
13:32.00raynetah.. WP=wikipedia :)
13:32.19MorgreetInteresting, not come across that before.  Looking up vendors.
13:32.21raynetnot WordPerfect
13:32.25MorgreetHehehehe
13:32.27MorgreetRetro :P
13:32.35raynetyeah.. i feel old again
13:32.47MorgreetWell RAYNET's been around a long time too :P
13:33.16Clintnono, WP means wordpress now
13:33.44raynet*sigh* there should be a law that prohibits reusing old acronyms
13:33.46MorgreetClint: Wikipedia is a bit more popular than Wordpress ... just slightly ;-)
13:34.00Clintyet i have never seen anyone use 'WP' to mean wikipedia until now
13:34.24raynetusually i see people just refer wikipedia as wiki
13:34.26Clinti miss wordperfect
13:34.31MorgreetAcronym space is a cache ... old entries get flushed out by new ones :P
13:35.21Clintjust like ical isn't ical anymore
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13:35.48MorgreetWireless USB: " It operates in the 3.1 to 10.6 GHz frequency range and spreads communication over an ultra-wideband of frequencies."
13:35.50MorgreetWow!
13:36.15MorgreetVery cool, bye bye ISM band
13:37.55raynetstill waiting for first laptops with Wireless USB. havent seen one yet
13:37.56MorgreetHehe, let's get FIC to investigate using that in v2.
13:38.18raynetand Apple will probably put Wireless Firewire in their laptops
13:38.29mjr"Firewireless"
13:38.37MorgreetHehe
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13:39.36MorgreetWell, musicians won't rejoice if the wireless bit adds latency to Firewire.  Which it will of course;  just hope it's not a lot.
13:42.41raynetah, temperature has warmed up from -31C to -20C and the engineblock heater has been on for about 2 hours, perhaps it will now start. -> Away
13:43.19MorgreetYou live on Titan? ;-)
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13:44.22Clintfinland and canada aren't quite as exciting as titan
13:44.55MorgreetWe've not had winter here in UK yet.  I have a rose blooming in the garden right now.
13:45.36so_solid_moowe've had snow in the UK, depending where you live.
13:45.41so_solid_moomore tomorrow.
13:45.49MorgreetOh!
13:45.59fluffsit was -5 last night (degC)
13:46.07so_solid_mooit's warm in the sun, but it is getting cold now and then
13:46.14so_solid_moo(I have an apple tree blossoming as well, though)
13:46.17noiddhmm, I saw an 8 port firewire microphone input with phantom power the other day
13:46.20MorgreetMy rosebush must be an import from Titan then. ;-)
13:46.22noiddI covererted it.
13:46.54noiddno snow in luton then huh?
13:47.09noiddWe had snow here in Charlotte NC last week
13:47.11noiddtres nice
13:47.23noidd'cept southerners can't drive in snow for shit.
13:47.24Stephmw-8C last night in Farnborough
13:47.33Stephmw... and the pond is still frozen :)
13:47.57Stephmwtomorrow the trains might be so screwed up that I could get away with staying home
13:48.47MorgreetDunno about Luton, I'll check its weather station.
13:48.52MorgreetLuton Airport , United Kingdom (EGGW) 51-52N 000-22W
13:48.57MorgreetTemperature: 35 F (2 C)
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13:50.37MorgreetHey, weather is a killer app for Brits, they talk about nothing else. :P  We'll have to have a weather app on the Neo :P
13:52.39xkr47http://stolendata.ath.cx/~djinn/spot_that_error.jpg
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13:56.41noiddgo go SEGV
13:56.44noiddI don't see the deliberate mistake
13:56.46noiddwanna give a clue?
13:56.46MorgreetWb :P
13:56.49noiddfirst thing I looked for was porn in the icons tho :-)
14:00.25SpeedEvilUsers inputting current weather conditions + GPS + distributed computing = neo forecast!
14:01.58Eblisthe possibilities are endless, eh ? :)
14:02.58SpeedEvilV2 must have a complete weather station to support this! With hat-mounted rain collector.
14:03.45Eblisrain/snow
14:03.46MorgreetHaha
14:03.46noiddOk, so you're not going to tell us the error huh?
14:04.05noiddits probably a typo in the languge from processor to penis or something
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14:04.33hadarahand holding the device has one finger too many
14:05.08MorgreetMake the rain collector tin foil and it's have other uses ... satellite dish and anti-spook shield all in one ;-)
14:05.15noiddhaha
14:05.16noiddnice
14:05.37noiddnow you say it, I can see it
14:05.52SpeedEvilAnd steerable wifi antenna!
14:07.09MorgreetAnd when it's not raining, beer drip feed tank :P
14:07.34dnearyhi
14:07.52dnearyAre maky OpenMokotes in Europe?
14:08.14rwhitbymost it seems
14:08.22Ganneffcounter
14:08.23aloril4 days 15:51:37 (4.661 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11);  a month, 4 days (32.661 days) for devices for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11);  7 months, 4 days (216.661 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info
14:08.42Ganneffwääh. one month still.
14:09.01dnearyEveryone know about this: http://www.fostel.org ?
14:10.36MorgreetOpen Moko: Sean Moss-Pultz    --- we're on it
14:11.16dnearyYup
14:11.24dnearySean will be there
14:11.34dnearyI was wondering if anyone else handy to Paris was interested in coming along
14:14.13dnearySpeedEvil: Pourquoi? Porqué? Cén fa? Why?
14:14.26SpeedEvilMoney problems mainly.
14:14.55Eblissaving for the phone ? :)
14:15.16SpeedEvilAnd time problems. Partially :)
14:15.37SpeedEvilIt all adds up - and no convenient airport where I could get to paris.
14:17.08CMxkr47: Hehe.. ;)
14:18.19MorgreetJust read a very odd thing in WP's Firewire entry:  "Cable TV providers (in the US, with digital systems) must, upon request of a customer, provide a cable box with a functional FireWire interface. The relevant law is CFR 76.640 Section 4 Subsections i and ii."
14:20.13raynetMorgreet: not that odd if you thing that US law says that tomato is a vegetable (as it is not eaten with other fruits/berries as desert) and because ketchup mostly is made of tomatoes it is also a vegetable
14:20.34MorgreetLOL
14:23.00SpeedEvil<PROTECTED>
14:24.49xkr47CM ?-)
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14:29.27Morgreetcounter
14:29.27aloril4 days 15:30:32 (4.646 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11);  a month, 4 days (32.646 days) for devices for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11);  7 months, 4 days (216.646 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info
14:30.30Marexaloril, counter
14:30.37Marexcounter
14:30.38aloril4 days 15:29:22 (4.645 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11);  a month, 4 days (32.645 days) for devices for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11);  7 months, 4 days (216.645 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info
14:31.04xkr470.001 days less!
14:31.09Marex:)
14:31.19MorgreetI guess we'll get the OM code repository and wiki login in 4 days' time.  Anything else beyond that?
14:31.40alorilno mention of encryption on WUSB wiki page
14:31.50alorilMarex: s/,/:/ works ;-)
14:36.08*** join/#openmoko koen (n=koen@212.41.157.237)
14:36.10*** join/#openmoko terrex (n=terrex@84-122-65-39.onocable.ono.com)
14:36.29CMxkr47: About the link you pasted.. Good grip on that Creative
14:37.09*** join/#openmoko terrex (n=terrex@84-122-65-39.onocable.ono.com)
14:37.17MorgreetDunno, looks a bit unsafe.  I think it needs another thumb to hold up the bottom right corner.
14:37.53xkr47CM, :)
14:43.07noiddhttp://telepathy.freedesktop.org/wiki/
14:43.11noiddanyone seen that before?
14:43.20noiddlooks very VERY similer to our current designs.
14:43.42SpeedEvilSue Them! :)
14:43.53CMWhat does? The layout?
14:44.19*** join/#openmoko Matt_PI (n=chatzill@209.198.66.141)
14:44.21noiddDoing messaging, sms, im, irc, voice, phone, contacts handling all via dbus
14:44.47noiddI've not dug deep to see how much work they've done that way
14:45.10Robot101we've done a lot :P
14:45.17CMsms too?
14:45.22noiddRobot101: that your project?
14:45.30Robot101noidd: I'm one of the lead developers, yes
14:45.37noiddSweet! :-)
14:46.00noiddWere you involved in the discussion on the mailing list about it all?
14:46.50Robot101noidd: I think I fell behind on the community list because it was full of 'tards, I need to catch up on the developer list I guess?
14:46.56*** join/#openmoko mintee (n=mintee@72-165-177-90.dia.static.qwest.net)
14:47.13*** join/#openmoko prpplague (n=dave@12.190.41.146)
14:47.19Clintis there actual content on the devel list yet?
14:47.27MorgreetPlenty
14:47.28*** join/#openmoko koen|gprs_ (n=koen@212.41.157.237)
14:48.01hrwre
14:48.25Clintcan i safely delete the past 800 messages from community without missing anything?
14:48.34Morgreet:P
14:49.18noiddyes
14:49.24noiddClint: probably, yes.
14:49.28Clintexcellent
14:49.35noiddanything worth reading on there was copied to dev
14:49.45noiddor to the wiki
14:50.07*** join/#openmoko koen|gprs_ (n=koen@212.41.157.237)
14:50.22noiddUnless you have a fetish for GNU/Linux and UNIX history flamewars.
14:50.41minteeas many people do
14:50.51noiddRobot101: If you introduce yourself to the dev list I promise you will get a warm welcome.
14:51.22MorgreetEspecially if you start with "Does it have wifi?"  ;-)))
14:51.24noiddRobot101: the coreteam email is pretty much just the core devs and sean and they're REALLY under the gun.
14:51.25Clintwarm flames
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14:54.28alorilhmm... I would like neo to be a bit bigger and include this: 1) 1-2 AA batteries in addition to internal one  2) at least 2 powered USB ports
14:54.31Robot101noidd: ok... I'll join the list and read up on the thread
14:54.52Robot101aloril: I misread that as "I would like neo to be no bigger than 1-2 AA batteries" :D
14:55.11aloril1) would be used to charge internal one and you could change AA's as required without rebooting
14:55.15alorilRobot101: hehe
14:55.25alorilRobot101: sure, if I get HMD ;-)
14:55.40aloril2) obvious ;-)
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14:57.30alorilI guess capacitor would give ability to change battery without powering down, but with internal one I get much more extra time (hours instead of minutes)
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14:58.02Eblisdid my mail about Moko and .Net make it to the devel mailing list yet ? i made an error when i sent the email and then subscribed to the list :) ... so i got a reply saying the email is pending for approval
14:58.04alorilxkr47: ah.. I want to be able to use Neo1973 with full power usage and even  when there is USB items in it
14:58.35xkr47"in" ?-)
14:59.00aloriland with internal battery can run AA's down and then just put another in it: 2-5h intensive usage -> days of intensive usage (assuming enough rechargeable AA's)
14:59.20alorilxkr47: hehe, connected to it
15:00.29xkr47why not glue together all your usb stuff into one necklace and then have an usb connector as the "jewelry".. :)
15:00.31alorilrun AA down -> at suitable point in next hour swap it (before internal battery runs out of juice) -> charge internal battery -> run AA again down, repeat
15:00.53aevincounter
15:00.54aloril4 days 14:59:06 (4.624 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11);  a month, 4 days (32.624 days) for devices for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11);  7 months, 4 days (216.624 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info
15:01.03alorilxkr47: not all USB stuff is that small
15:01.41xkr47(I didn't specifically say "small" =)
15:01.49alorilhehe
15:02.08*** join/#openmoko tomjoad4400 (n=tomjoad4@70.130.201.119)
15:02.20SpeedEvilThe necklace could probably fall afoul of various weapons laws by the time it's fully populates. (24*AA, ...)
15:02.45xkr47:D
15:03.20xkr47"So what if I have 220V DC in my necklace! It's not lethal! Ask edison if you don't believe me!"
15:03.48*** join/#openmoko [g2] (n=g2@nslu2-linux/g2)
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15:06.11xkr47Humidity Monitoring Devices ?-)
15:07.23MorgreetWell a necklace populated with Sony Li-Ion batteries would be well regarded in pro-capital punishment circles.
15:09.13MorgreetHoly Mackerel Devices?
15:10.19MorgreetHer Majesty's Doughnuts?
15:11.07xkr47Hackable Mobile Dil^H^H^HDevice
15:12.12MorgreetWell apparently, the latter are, or will be. ;-)
15:14.29MorgreetI think I need a wander down to Soho, might be some pretty interesting Bluetooth devices around ...
15:14.51XorAfluffs: can the s3c2410 do a trick similar to pxa270 and display a 320x240 framebuffer on a 640x480 screen?
15:15.40MorgreetI had a quick look through the video section of the datasheet, but saw no reference to scaling.  Just panning.
15:16.09XorAarse
15:16.28prpplagueXorA: the s3c2410 does have some virtual window stuff, but i think is mainly for down sizing
15:16.52buzXorA: LaF0rge said so a while ago
15:17.01SpeedEvilThe sc... can't scale
15:17.14SpeedEvilThe LCD can be put in qvga mode
15:17.28buzseems to achieve the same to me
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15:17.49MorgreetSpeedEvil: on the fly, or just on powerup?
15:17.53XorAas long as 320x240 fills the whole of the screen thats fine
15:17.58SpeedEvilpretty much generally - though lower datarate = bit lower power
15:18.07SpeedEvilon the fly AIUI
15:18.16MorgreetGreat!
15:18.23buzgood
15:18.34buzmeans we need xrandr though?
15:18.40buz(i hate the thing)
15:18.47SpeedEvilfor rotate?
15:18.49prpplagueXorA: yea, on horizontal and vertical panning
15:18.53buzfor resize
15:18.53SpeedEviloh
15:18.59SpeedEvilyeah
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15:19.47XorAcount
15:19.49XorAcounter
15:19.50aloril4 days 14:40:10 (4.611 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11);  a month, 4 days (32.611 days) for devices for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11);  7 months, 4 days (216.611 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info
15:19.52XorAthen
15:20.15SpeedEvilMost providers have some sort of credit limit.
15:21.33Morgreetaloril: good point actually.  Might be a good idea to have a limits config outside of apps, so that mistakes don't have too much impact, or Neo will get a bad rep.
15:23.07SpeedEvilYeah - plus, we really, really don't want trojans.
15:23.25prpplagueMorgreet: with support for features like preventing you from sending a message to your wife instead of the intended girlfriend
15:23.48*** join/#openmoko nomasteryoda (n=nomaster@160.sub-75-203-157.myvzw.com)
15:24.01MorgreetAye, sure hope that nobody implements an auto-install system for executables.  That would be real bad.
15:24.17Clintauto-run
15:24.23SpeedEvilSomething like a signed repository maybe.
15:24.33SpeedEvilOr even several.
15:24.37Morgreetprpplague: haha.  An important feature.
15:25.17SpeedEvil'No texting on saturday nights, unless you first solve a logic puzzle.'
15:25.17alorilwhile some_broken_condition; do send_SMS; sleep 60; done  #;-) or some broken forking .... fork SMS bomb ;-)
15:27.11alorilor script is broken and rings everybody on address book  (even worse, play some embarrassing sound file to everybody in address book) or .. I guess there will be some horror stories
15:28.03buza party leader recently called one of her politicians and told her voicebox that she should resign when really she meant to call her co leader
15:28.11buzso stuff like that happens with normal phones, too ;
15:28.32alorilbuz: yeah, but with automation you can amplify effect ;-)
15:28.39MorgreetHas any sort of standard firewall app emerged for other Linux phones?  Configuring netfilter from the commandline isn't for Mom+Dad.
15:28.57buzMorgreet: easy, really. firewall everything
15:29.00alorilOpenMoko is powerful, but that means also potential for huge blunders
15:29.08Clintwhat firewall tasks do mom&dad need to do?
15:29.41buzdeny from any should be fine for most
15:29.46alorilMorgreet: I think phones are behind NAT by default (unless you mean firewall against outgoing connections)
15:30.19SpeedEvilBluetooth - maybe not.
15:30.49Morgreetaloril: yep.  Because they'll quite innocently receive emails that say "Click this for your free prize" ... so I think something that saves them from their innocence would be handy.
15:31.43SpeedEvilOwner/user is also interesting. For example, I buy a phone for my 8yo girl (hypothetical). I certainly don't want someone to be able to install a tracking app on it if it's put down for a moment.
15:32.00MorgreetAye
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15:33.33alorilof course lots of potential for bigger blunders has been already possible for long time with for example email
15:34.09buzSpeedEvil: you want signed apps then i guess
15:34.24buzor simply root access denied by default
15:34.24SpeedEvilI can't think of another way round it.
15:34.33SpeedEvilOr that.
15:34.39buzand noexec on user partition
15:34.53buzmhh noexec on user partition could do just fine?
15:34.57SpeedEvilYeah - standard stuff - but not so much for phones.
15:35.13buzactually, no exec doesnt reall yhelp if scripting languages are there :(
15:35.55alorilpassword on boot menu (so if user swaps micro-sd -> can't boot there without password)
15:36.07alorilor boot using USB without knowing password
15:36.15hrwnoexec is no limitation
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15:36.34hrwyou can run apps from noexec mountpoint
15:36.45buzyou can?
15:36.48buzthen what is it good for
15:37.14MorgreetOne way around the problem is to prevent installs entirely when in normal operation mode, so that regardless of what bad stuff comes down, it doesn't compromise the system as a whole.  And as long as the root/user divide is maintained, that shouldn't be too hard.
15:37.55buzMorgreet: you dont need to install stuff to run it
15:38.38Morgreetbuz: indeed, but the fact that it's not installed means that you can recover from infection.
15:39.16buzat the beginning, security through obscurity will help
15:39.48SpeedEvilHopefully this platform will attract virus/troja writers tho.
15:39.57SpeedEvil(as it gets very popular)
15:40.41MorgreetIt will, guaranteed, especially since OM will work with OpenEZX phones too.
15:42.23buzsomehow i doubt most of moto's customers will care if OM runs on their phoens...
15:42.50buzare there any LiMo phones announced, btw?
15:43.32Morgreetbuz: no, they're starting with the most important stuff first, ie. their lawyers. ;-)
15:44.11buzprobably got shot at by the FSF fornot calling it Gnu/LiMo
15:45.40MorgreetLOL, they'll get shot by the FSF for a far more important reason .... "Linux kernel and user source code will not be redistributable to non-LiMo members under any circumstances".
15:45.58MorgreetGo figure.  Some people are just clueless.
15:46.01noidddoes it say that?
15:46.14MorgreetYeah, in their announcement.
15:47.19noiddWow.
15:47.25noiddRotate the following 90 degrees
15:47.29noidd(. rit
15:47.37noidd"Hold me, Retard"
15:48.19buzobviously, limo must be a MS project to stop people from using linux on phones ...
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15:49.37robtaylorMorgreet: that's fine, as long asthey don't distribute the binaries
15:49.49robtaylor=)
15:50.10Morgreetbuz: nah, even MS isn't *that* clueless.  LiMo must have been some quickie late-night idea for those 6 companies to not appear irrelevant.  They obviously didn't research the issue.
15:50.32robtaylorMorgreet: unfortunatly not, its been on the cards for some time
15:51.52robtaylorthey'll just implode and fail miserably, but hey, that's thier choice
15:53.23MorgreetWell, if Neo/OM were to get some serious open competition, I'm all for that.  May the best and most open win. :-)
15:56.19*** join/#openmoko Matt_PI_ (n=chatzill@209.198.66.141)
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15:58.23noiddso, they re-implement a closed version of dbus, esb, tipc, dipc, corba and rendezvous.
15:58.26noidd:-P
15:58.32noiddsounds lovely.  I can't wait.
15:58.39MorgreetHehe, and a lot more.  Good luck to them.
15:59.09buzwell if the kernel is there, we could theoretically stick OM or GPE phone on top of it?
15:59.24buzwith a lot less trouble than bringing linux to HTC phones, anyway
16:00.34MorgreetOh, reminds me:  somewhere on the MLs, Sean replied to a post saying that he'd love to get FSF endorsement for Neo/OM.  I wonder if there's any milage in that.
16:00.35MorgreetWould be quite a feather in cap.
16:00.35buzi dont really care if the FSF likes my phone or not
16:01.29Morgreetbuz: but many would see it as affirming the phone's openness.  And after all, openness is the only reason for buying it.
16:01.56buzsure
16:02.06buzbut personally i have a different definition of open than the FSF has
16:02.37Clintdo you have a different definition of "free"?
16:02.45*** part/#openmoko rejon (n=rejon@c-24-23-175-209.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
16:03.06buzin mine, free is free to run whatever software you want
16:03.20_llll_eg debian has a different definition of "free".  i dont understand this notion that the fsf has a monopoly on "freedom"
16:03.21buznot being shot at for deciding proprietary software does the better job for the problem at hand
16:03.42Clintah, you want freedom _from_ something
16:03.57_llll_perhaps i should start the FamousSoftwareFoundation, and then everyone will have to defer to my notion of "fame"
16:04.51Morgreetbuz: fair enough, that's your definition, and your right.  But it doesn't focus on software freedom, which is what the FSF do.
16:05.07_llll_the fsf focus on one notion of freedom
16:05.46_llll_but it's silly for me to argue, OM would benefit form fsf, debian and osi approval :)
16:05.55_llll_and anyone else who care to approve it
16:05.59*** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@9.80-202-160.nextgentel.com)
16:06.19buzjust you wait for DHS to approve it as terrorist friendly
16:06.38Clintit would also benefit from that
16:06.38MorgreetYeah, license wars don't help.  But still, you have to remember that the only point in Neo/OM is openness.  There is no other purpose to the project.
16:07.09_llll_fic dont iuntend to make a profit?
16:08.06Morgreet_llll_: from reading Sean's vision in many different places, profit seems to be very secondary.  FIC knows how to make profit already.  This is an experiment for them.
16:08.28buzyeah, experiment in making new profits
16:08.58buzwhich is fine by me
16:09.52MorgreetMy guess is they'll be making a small profit from the basic hardware sale, and will have a greatly reduced software expenditure because of community development.  That's enough to justify the project, and the rest is "Let's see what happens".
16:10.09buzprobably true
16:10.30SpeedEvilI _suspect_ they can make a profit at $350 even with the onesy-twoesy volume of P1
16:10.33SpeedEvilI
16:10.46buzand they get a lot of recognition in the OSS world
16:10.50buzfor other products as well
16:10.58SpeedEvil'm fairly sure that tehy can make a quite reasonable profiit from p2
16:11.05SpeedEvilEspecially if it hits in volume.
16:11.08MorgreetAllegedly the same hardware will sell in China as a WinMobile anyway.
16:11.16SuNIf they're wise, they base their profit on the hardware and depend/count on the community to make the hardware attractive.
16:11.56SpeedEvilSoftware could work too.
16:12.03SuNHow?
16:12.09SpeedEvilGood voice recognition, mapping.
16:12.14SuNClosed
16:12.14SuN?
16:12.16SpeedEvilfor example.
16:12.18SpeedEvilSure.
16:12.24SuNI guess
16:12.38SuNThey're not about to score points with the community by doing that though.
16:12.57SpeedEvilThe community can come up with alternatives for speech recognition if they want.
16:13.04SuNSelling maps in a portable format would, though.
16:13.09SpeedEvilYeah.
16:13.15*** join/#openmoko jtoy (n=jtoy@mail.backchannelmedia.com)
16:13.37Eblisis any moderator of the openmoko-devel mailing list around ?
16:13.39SuNLet the community develop the apps that use them, or even give them something to begin with, make profit on maps.
16:13.39SpeedEvilI suspect the map data originators are in many ways even more scared than the music people though.
16:14.01MorgreetI bet FIC are not unhappy at being the "bad boys" in the phone manufacturers' community, through openness.  A bit of notoriety never hurt anyone.
16:14.35SpeedEvilI really suspect it's not even on the radar.
16:14.44SuNNot yet, anyway.
16:14.52SuNBut it has the potential to shake things up.
16:15.00MorgreetIt's a small club.  Yep, it'll be on the radar.
16:15.26SuNI'd be surprised if not at least Motorola is maintaining a close watch.
16:15.40SpeedEvilAt some level, yes.
16:16.27MorgreetEspecially if that Slashdot article of a couple of days ago was right .... that Symbian has major problems, and a lot of unhappiness.
16:16.58SuNHm, by any chance do you have that linked?
16:17.09MorgreetThink I do, sec
16:18.00Morgreethttp://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/02/05/139207
16:18.08SuNThanks
16:19.50MorgreetThe last link eally eye openingon the story is r
16:19.56MorgreetOops
16:20.16MorgreetThe last link in that story is really eye-opening.
16:20.37Morgreet(Mouse went into cardiac arrest)
16:21.14SuNHm, for a minute I thought you had multiple indepentend parts of your brain that collaboratively construct sentences.
16:21.20*** join/#openmoko Rac0r (n=Rac0r@p54AA5FF3.dip.t-dialin.net)
16:21.22SuNIndependent even
16:21.29*** join/#openmoko emlprime (n=peter@ip68-6-47-233.sb.sd.cox.net)
16:21.35MorgreetOh I do, but in this case it was the mouse ;-)
16:21.41SuN:D
16:22.27prpplagueSpeedEvil: you know what manufacturers lcd is being used in the neo?
16:23.27MorgreetBtw, if you're a SciFi fan, there's a tremendous novel called "Aristoi" by Walter Jon Williams that has precisely that as the topic -- multiple independent daemons in the brain, cooperative personalities, every liberated person is a team. :-)
16:23.38SpeedEvilNo clue
16:23.41Morgreet(SuN)
16:23.50SuNSounds cool.
16:23.56SuNIs it public domain? ;)
16:24.33MorgreetDon't think SciFi books have been liberated yet ;-)))
16:24.49*** join/#openmoko loufoque (n=lofoque@smj33-1-82-233-64-48.fbx.proxad.net)
16:24.55SpeedEvilhttp://www.baen.org/library/
16:24.57SpeedEvilSome have.
16:25.08MorgreetYeah, darn good that, and Gutenberg
16:25.43SpeedEvilI like lynx on my laptop.
16:25.52SpeedEvilWith a script to backreference the book.
16:26.01Clintlynx is years overdue for a new release
16:26.30SpeedEvilSo that if a proper name hasn't been mentioned in 50 lines, it makes the proper name a link to the first mention.
16:26.59SpeedEvilMajorly handy for 'cast of thousands' books, or even ones you are interrupted on.
16:35.05*** join/#openmoko chyort_ (n=ChyortVo@66.83.238.170.nw.nuvox.net)
16:43.11leventhalI like w3m for a text browser
16:44.39leventhalThe arrow keys move the pointer rather than select the next hyperlink, which is very handy since a lot of pages have a sidebar before the main content, and you want to follow a link to the main content without tabbing through a hundred items in a sidebar
16:44.59leventhalIt also accepts mouse input
16:45.26SpeedEvilI'd really like a thumbstick on the v1
16:45.29SpeedEvil:/
16:45.45MorgreetNot seen w3m.  Emerging it now.
16:46.19leventhalMorgreet: I use it on my cell phone every now and then, or when I want to browse something nsfw from work
16:46.38Eblisis any moderator of the openmoko-devel mailing list around ? :)
16:46.48ecravenwill there be a Xoo image for the neo?
16:48.23Morgreetecraven:  there is already.  stefan_schmidt links the URL periodically.
16:48.26mjrthere already was a prelim one, though without buttons I think
16:48.30*** join/#openmoko parag0n (n=parag0n@popeshoe.gotadsl.co.uk)
16:48.46mjrnot that there's much to button
16:48.56ecravenoh, does anyone know the link?
16:49.23stefan_schmidtecraven: http://www.datenfreihafen.org/~stefan/OpenMoko/neo1973-xoo-device.tar.bz2
16:49.50stefan_schmidtmjr: Once I have my device I'll add the buttons
16:49.55MorgreetHehehe, IRC service >>> all
16:52.50ecravenlooks nice.. now i just need some software to run
16:53.28Morgreetleventhal: w3m is cute. :P  Still getting my head around the concept of images in a text-mode browser ... but nice. :P
16:55.19SuNDoes it do css?
16:56.04unknown_lamerit can
16:56.11stefan_schmidtecraven: You can start with installing matchbox wm on your host. Everything else is available on sunday.
16:56.12unknown_lamererr
16:56.18unknown_lamersorry, misread
16:56.29unknown_lamerlack of css in w3m is annoying
16:56.42SuNPity
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17:00.52ecravenstefan_schmidt: neo will have matchbox? nice :)
17:04.43*** join/#openmoko thedaniel (n=daniel@38.98.1.19)
17:04.52MorgreetIs anyone intending to run OM under Xen full virtualization?  Or KVM, now that it's in 2.6.20?
17:04.52*** join/#openmoko christoph_ (n=christop@p57B00F9F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
17:05.28buzhttp://www.iol.co.za/html/newideas/page2.php?loadpage=newidea.php&id=3198
17:05.41buzso i get sued for patent violation if i hold the neo upside down?
17:06.27loufoqueMorgreet: I think Xen only provides virtualization, not machine emulation.
17:06.31mjrthe neo that doesn't have a keyboard? :]
17:07.21leventhalOoh, $1.99 domain registrations at yahoo
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17:08.02Morgreetloufoque: yes, you'd still need the arch emulator, but I think think there's a qemu for arm, no?
17:08.11ecravenwtf, 40% said this upside-down has potential as a patent??
17:08.24loufoquebuz: patents aren't meant to be taken seriously.
17:08.36loufoquebuz: most of them are too ridiculous
17:09.03loufoqueMorgreet: what can Xen add on top of qemu?
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17:09.25MorgreetSome time in the future, people will look back on patenting like they now look at slavery.
17:10.57mjryes, I do :]
17:11.57aloril2unless we lose
17:12.40Morgreetloufoque: not sure about Xen, but what KVM would add is the ability to control and interact with the resources of your emulation using ordinary unix tools.  That's just from reading the blurb, not personal experience.  My full-virt box hasn't arrived yet. ;-)
17:12.45loufoquedepends, some patents are actually good things.
17:12.59SpeedEvilSome are insane.
17:13.14loufoquesoftware patents are especially bad.
17:13.18SpeedEvilI recently came across one that patented using a gasket of foam rubber on a SAW display.
17:13.36SpeedEvilIf you're looking for a gasket material, you try stuff around hte shop.
17:13.51SpeedEvilthe third or fourth one will be foam rubber.
17:14.46SpeedEvil(SAW is a method of touchscreen reading that involves no thin plastic overlay on the screen like resistive ones. And can use scratch-resistant glass.
17:14.57Morgreetloufoque: no patent is good unless the holder is actually building and selling an item based on it.  That seems to hold for 0.000000000001% of patents these days.  Patents should expire the instant that the holder stops manufacturing the item, otherwise they just prevent progress.
17:15.26aloril2more and more will be software in future, especially with 3D printers and later with nanotechnology
17:16.14MorgreetThe concept of an idea "belonging" to someone is just insane.
17:16.22loufoque3D printers? What are those things?
17:17.09Morgreetloufoque: they're mechanisms that build up a hardware item by applying successive layers.
17:17.37MorgreetVery experimental atm.
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17:19.07loufoqueyou mean they sculpt the item?
17:19.12SpeedEvilNot really experimental.
17:19.14SpeedEvilJust niche.
17:19.17SpeedEvilNo.
17:19.45SpeedEvilImagine printing out on a laser printer a thousand sheets, each with a different slice of a 3d object on it.
17:20.01SpeedEvilNow, remove the 'white' bits, and you ahve a solid object.
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17:21.14SpeedEvilThe fun bit is making it so that it can print structural/useful materials, rather than just an object with more or less the right shape.
17:22.35loufoquesuch a waste of paper
17:22.38Morgreetlol
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17:23.42tuxmaniaccounter
17:23.43aloril4 days 12:36:16 (4.525 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11);  a month, 4 days (32.525 days) for devices for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11);  7 months, 4 days (216.525 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info
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17:35.21aloril2loufoque: you can build 3D printer for about $2400 IIRC: it squirts material layer by layer instead of using laser: less expensive and less accurate
17:36.12aloril2Wikipedia 3D_printer or something like that has links
17:36.56MorgreetDoes anyone know where the standard "vt7" is configured as the vt for X11?
17:37.35so_solid_moosurely it just uses the first free vt?
17:38.14MorgreetCould be.  Lemme check if 5 and 6 already have ttys on them
17:39.10MorgreetYes they do, so you're probably right about that.  Cheers!
17:39.40so_solid_mooI believe you can play with VT numbers with e.g. gdm, but I've no idea how well it works.
17:40.03mjrMorgreet, /etc/inittab
17:40.06SpeedEvil<PROTECTED>
17:40.46mjrX generally grabs the first available one
17:40.46MorgreetWhat I'm trying to do is run another X11 server.  The vt choice is not the main problem, I'n sure ;-)
17:40.46SpeedEvilYeah
17:40.47SpeedEvilNo
17:40.47SpeedEvilstartx -- :2
17:40.49SpeedEvilusually works
17:41.04SpeedEvilStarts it on the next free VT
17:41.15MorgreetFunny, I tried :1, as it said :0 was used.  Trying :2, hehe
17:41.25SpeedEvilIt's not VT that.
17:41.37SpeedEvil:2/:1 is the X server number
17:41.44SpeedEvilIt can be on any free VT.
17:43.46SpeedEvilI'm not sure server number is the right term.
17:44.20MorgreetThat worked swell, thanks Speed.
17:44.53SpeedEvil:)
17:45.32MorgreetNow I can just switch to matchbox and pretend I'm a PDA ;-)
17:45.45MorgreetWithout mucking up the main system
17:49.06SpeedEvilXnest can be handy too
17:51.59leventhalbah. i just wasted my entire lunch break thinking of a stupid domain name to register, and couldn't.
17:52.04leventhaleverything i want is taken
17:52.57unknown_lamerI lucked out and was able to grab my handle
17:53.14SpeedEvilThree? years ago, I did a test.
17:53.29leventhalleventhal.info and .biz are taken..
17:53.30SpeedEvilI looked up [a-z][a-z][a-z][a-z]
17:53.35leventhalI mean available, others are taken
17:53.41SpeedEvilAbout 50 were not registered.
17:53.44SpeedEvil(.com)
17:53.49leventhalSE: I'm not surprised in the least
17:54.06leventhalAnything that is in the dictionary auctions well
17:54.11leventhalanything random gets used by spammers
17:55.03SpeedEvilI mailed a couple of vendors - xkym and thinks like of parkers. Most wated $400 or so.
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18:06.50Eblisis any openmoko-devel mailing list moderator around ? :)
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18:11.25stefan_schmidtEblis: LaF0rge is the moderator. Not sure if mickey|bbl also can adjust things. But what is your problem?
18:13.32Eblisi sent an email to openmono-devel without subscribing first
18:13.51Eblisthe mail is currently awaiting approval
18:14.14Eblisand i was wondering if i should cancel it and send another one or await for someone to approve it
18:16.33Eblisany suggestion ? :)
18:17.36stefan_schmidtEblis: I would send it again. The worst thing that could happen is that both mails would appear.
18:17.50Eblisyeah, i was trying to avoid that :)
18:17.51Eblisok, thanks
18:19.01stefan_schmidtModerate ml is sometimes a pain. All this SPAM. Not a good chance to filter out the mails you really need to moderate.
18:21.18ElrondHi stefan_schmidt
18:21.23ElrondI hate moderating mls.
18:21.54stefan_schmidthi Elrond
18:23.48Eblishmm, weird ... i still got the approval bounce but now i'm subscribed to the list
18:24.05stefan_schmidtEblis: Right from address?
18:24.13Eblisshouldn't the mail have gone through directly, is there another step involved ?
18:26.09stefan_schmidtElrond: If you're subscribed and wrote with the right from address it should go directly on the ml.
18:26.38Eblisi need to get some sleep :D
18:26.43Eblisfound the problem
18:28.21stefan_schmidtheh
18:28.44Elrond/stefan_schmidt/s/Elrond/Eblis/
18:28.52Elrond;o)
18:29.10Elrondcounter
18:29.10aloril4 days 11:30:49 (4.480 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11);  a month, 4 days (32.480 days) for devices for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11);  7 months, 4 days (216.480 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info
18:29.22stefan_schmidtyeah, again tab-completion fuckup. sorry
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18:31.35Eblisaaaah, better
18:31.41Eblisthe problem: stupid user :)
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20:21.00philippeLaF0rge: ping.
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20:23.23aevinbtw, how many phase 0 devs will there be? any number on that? (just curious)
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20:31.33koen|gprs_50 or 100
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20:35.29aevinkoen|gprs_: that's more than i hoped for. great!
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21:13.20hrw|gonehttp://www.aximsite.com/articles/link.php?id=372 can be interesting ide
21:13.21hrw|gonea
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22:39.57Matt_PIhttp://www.appscout.com/2007/02/appscout_giveaway_golden_joost.php
22:43.37Morgreet"New York to Ban iPods While Crossing Street?"  -- Slashdot headline ;-)))
22:45.18ElrondMorgreet - *lol*
22:47.25MorgreetAnd the story after it .... "Republicans in the U.S. House of Representatives announced yesterday legislation to force ISPs to keep track of what their users are doing. It's part of the Republicans 'law and order agenda,'"
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22:49.11MorgreetPoliticians will probably rejoice once more mobiles have GPS in them.  After all, what better weapon in the War Against Terror than having a full track record of every person's whereabouts ...
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22:51.09ElrondWhen will they get, that real terrorists will use proper crypto and the ISP wont be able to even notice?
22:52.42MorgreetWell that would only matter if they were interested in terrorists.  They're not, that's just the excuse.  The real power trip is controlling the population, and getting tons of money for doing it.
22:53.37ElrondRight.
22:54.19SuNDemocrats FTW!
22:54.21ElrondWe need some nice crypto features on the neo. ;)
22:54.49SuNAES-looped SD cards and files sound nice.
22:55.06MorgreetWell put yourself in their shoes.  Our taxes could either go towards repairing potholes, or they could go into pure contractor profit.  No contest really.
22:55.07Elronds/looped/dm-crypt/
22:55.29rwhitbyLaF0rge has already reported that dm-crypt is standard.
22:55.39SuNOr that!
22:55.53ElrondMorgreet - You're right. :)
22:55.54SuNHmm, the E6 sounds like a really nice replacement for my E680.
22:56.06threshhi guys
22:56.11SuNHi
22:58.41loufoquefortunetely, an open source phone can't be tracked
22:59.19Elrondloufoque - Well, at least the gps not. But the gsm.
22:59.49MorgreetAny phone can be tracked ... the cells can report their signal levels for triangulation.
23:03.46ElrondRight.
23:04.03SpeedEvilNot signal levels only, time differences.
23:04.11ElrondWould be fun, if we can get the signal stength data from the gsm module. ;)
23:04.27SpeedEvilIndeed.
23:04.38wm_eddieBut what would you use that data for?
23:05.01SpeedEvilIt could be useful when you've got a marginal signal.
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23:05.35SpeedEvilTrying to work out where peak signal is when you're presented with the sum of all signals from various gsm towers is hard.
23:06.06SpeedEvilIf it had per-tower bars, that might be easier.
23:06.21MorgreetOh yes, time differences would provide a hugely more accurate fix, if cells can coordinate on a given cellphone's transmissions.  Erk, didn't think of that.
23:07.05SpeedEvilAlso - modern cell towers can AIUI split by orientation.
23:07.05ElrondHmm, if we can change the sent power, we can reduce it, so that only one tower can get us. ;o)
23:07.19SpeedEvilSo they can work multiple phones on the same frequency in different directions.
23:07.20Elrond"AIUI"?
23:07.26wm_eddiebut isn't it better to have many towers?
23:07.46SuNFaulty towers!
23:07.56SpeedEvilSure - however optimising for best signal, in marginal conditions was what I meant.
23:08.01SpeedEvilAs I Understand It.
23:08.15Elrondwm_eddie - If you want to do a phone call: Yes.  If you just walk around and want to know, when someone calls you: one should suffice. ;)
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23:08.49wm_eddieSpeedEvil: But remember cell phones are usually moving.
23:09.11SpeedEvilThere are apps where they are not - much.
23:09.11wm_eddieand 95% of cell phone towers aren't omnidirectional.
23:09.20MorgreetElrond: far less power is needed for just listening in to a cellphone's framing (all that's needed for gathering timing data) than to actually communicate with it.
23:09.22SpeedEvilFor example, trying to get a signal in a building.
23:09.58SpeedEvilHowever, you have to be able to detect the phones signal and demodulate it to make sure you are getting the right phone.
23:10.38SpeedEvilAlso, in most environments, you can't listen for faint phones as other phones stomp on the signal.
23:11.07wm_eddieGSM is just TDMA right?
23:11.15SpeedEvilBasically.
23:11.43SpeedEvilHowever, the time is divided according to the towers point of view.
23:11.55MorgreetAs opposed to DMCA ... ;-)
23:12.10SpeedEvilSo if you are not colocated with the tower, phones can stomp on each others signal, though the tower does not getg that.
23:14.52MorgreetIf you really went to town on cellphone tracking though, you could get the primary master cell to deliver sync data to adjacent cells, so that alll they'd need to do is apply a correlator to the bitstream --- the distance to cellphone pops out automatically!!!
23:15.16SpeedEvilSome places do this already for location services.
23:15.37SpeedEvilThey need to know the time accurately to talk to each other.
23:16.39SpeedEvilAnd it's a service to sell to customers.
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23:17.46MorgreetThat's slightly different though, it's inter-cell sync.  I mean the primary giving adjacent cells not its own sync, but the incoming cellphone's signal sync.
23:18.17MorgreetMakes triangulation pretty simple
23:18.26SpeedEvilNot really.
23:18.30SpeedEvilThere is no need for that.
23:18.49SpeedEvilAll the towers have GPS, with time outputs.
23:19.04SpeedEvilGiving few nanosecond accuracies.
23:19.12SpeedEvilAt least between nearby towers.
23:19.31MorgreetThat's a given, obviously their own position and inter-cell sync is known.
23:19.48Stephmwhah.
23:19.55StephmwNot in the UK
23:20.22StephmwSome operators are famous for now knowing exactly where their towers are
23:20.25Stephmw*not
23:20.30Morgreetlol
23:20.47MorgreetI read that as not knowing where their towels are ...
23:20.52Stephmw;)
23:21.08SpeedEvilNot telling customers where towers are so nutters can campaign to close them does not equal not knowing.
23:21.24SpeedEvilOMG RADIATION!
23:23.28StephmwThat aside, there are still some towers that have accurate coords that aren't correct
23:23.52SpeedEvilI can believe that.
23:24.15Stephmwas for the pico-cells...
23:24.23StephmwI doubt their locations are ever accurately recorded
23:24.29Stephmwnearest building, perhaps
23:24.52MorgreetIt's not nutty to be concerned about radiation.  What's nutty is to overstate or understate the extent of its effect.
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23:33.26Elrondtihi, we can use the neo to track down the tower positions! ;)
23:34.11MorgreetNice one, turns the issue on its head, hehe.
23:35.57SuNWell, cell detection has some potential.
23:36.36SuNThough a lot of that is more or less made irrelevant by the addition of a GPS chip.
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23:45.28ElrondWell, using the gps and cell strength, we should be able to guess up the towers. ;)
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23:54.33SpeedEvilGPS can be turned off by world events at great distance.
23:54.52SpeedEvilCell towers, probably only locally.
23:55.46LittleIdioti'm starting to buy bluetooth accesspoints and plant them everywhere i hang out
23:56.08LittleIdiotfree, encrypted calls ;)
23:56.53*** join/#openmoko Matt_PI (n=chatzill@209.198.66.141)

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