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| 00:16.12 | _ASK | hi |
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| 00:49.01 | ninHer | hi all |
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| 06:03.06 | what_nick_ | hi all |
| 06:06.41 | aloril2 | counter |
| 06:06.41 | aloril | a week 23:53:18 (7.995 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week (35.995 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week (219.995 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 06:07.36 | what_nick_ | cool |
| 06:07.41 | what_nick_ | so ... |
| 06:07.55 | what_nick_ | 8 days eh |
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| 09:39.42 | rwhitby-treo | what will be the preferred IRC client on the Neo? |
| 09:48.21 | MetaBookfoziS | irssi;) |
| 09:48.52 | MetaBookfoziS | (it just a tip) |
| 09:49.28 | buz | irc is seriously crappy with a touchscreen |
| 09:55.54 | MDK | it's not on n800 with thumb keyboard |
| 09:57.22 | buz | you must have different definition of crappy ;) |
| 09:57.40 | buz | unless by thumb keyboard you mean a real small one |
| 09:58.01 | MDK | no, I mean a fullscreen touch scree nkeyboard you use with your thumbs |
| 09:58.10 | koen | my thumbs are too big for that |
| 09:58.12 | MDK | we did some tests against mylo hw keyboard |
| 09:58.26 | MDK | and the thumb touchscreen keyboard is WAY faster |
| 09:58.38 | buz | havent seen a mylo in real |
| 09:58.42 | koen | if you don't have bug thumbs |
| 09:58.55 | MDK | koen: could be... |
| 09:59.19 | MDK | koen: but if you have big finger you're screwed anyways with other smallish hw-keyboards |
| 09:59.25 | koen | right |
| 09:59.25 | MDK | *fingers |
| 09:59.43 | koen | guess why I don't use small keyboards :) |
| 10:00.32 | MDK | obviously, that's not to say that thumb keyboard is better than hw keyboard |
| 10:00.53 | MDK | since the thumb fullscreen keyboard has an disadvantage that it covers the screen while you're typing |
| 10:01.04 | MDK | but for irc/chatting that's not that important |
| 10:01.26 | MDK | since you usually do "one sentence fire and forget" |
| 10:03.27 | MDK | the real problem with all thumb-usable devices is that the screen gets greasy |
| 10:03.29 | koen | MDK: I'd love to see the thumbkb include the last line of text in the text entry |
| 10:03.38 | MDK | and, AFAIK, there is no any solution to that |
| 10:03.55 | MDK | koen: that would be cool |
| 10:03.58 | koen | wash your hands more often :) |
| 10:04.10 | MDK | I'm afraid it would need a bigger input methods integration |
| 10:04.17 | SpeedEvil | voice recog is a solution |
| 10:04.49 | SpeedEvil | vopi to india + typist. |
| 10:04.57 | MDK | hah |
| 10:05.52 | MDK | i wonder how they solve the grease problem with iphone |
| 10:06.07 | SpeedEvil | marketing |
| 10:07.00 | MDK | hhehe |
| 10:07.07 | buz | RDF |
| 10:08.01 | buz | i just noticed my laptop has 80/8/6 as system date |
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| 10:08.56 | rwhitby | japanese locale settings? (6 Aug 1980) |
| 10:25.33 | buz | yes |
| 10:25.40 | buz | somethings very wrong |
| 10:25.47 | buz | i can set it to be ok again, no problem there |
| 10:25.55 | buz | i wonder if it will happen again next time i suspend to ram |
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| 12:21.54 | tuxmaniac | counter |
| 12:21.54 | aloril | a week 17:38:05 (7.735 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week (35.735 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week (219.735 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
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| 13:13.29 | strawberryjam | hi |
| 13:15.23 | sean_mosko | quite a bit of people sitting and not much talking. How's everyone doing? [I'm sitting behind a painfully slow firewall in a teashop in Shanghai] |
| 13:15.48 | SpeedEvil | I am currently trying to get up the energy to put my house walls insides back on. |
| 13:15.53 | SpeedEvil | After ripping them all out. |
| 13:16.11 | sean_mosko | hehe...nice. |
| 13:16.30 | wbx | hmm, i just cleaning my flat and have a umts connection to the internet. nothing interesting ;) |
| 13:17.27 | SpeedEvil | oops |
| 13:17.51 | SpeedEvil | http://www.mauve.plus.com/walls/ hte current state |
| 13:18.20 | Stephmw | howdy sean |
| 13:19.05 | Stephmw | I think mostly we've left the 'blue-sky' stuff to the mailing list now :) |
| 13:19.05 | koen | hey sean_mosko |
| 13:19.05 | koen | counter |
| 13:19.05 | aloril | a week 16:41:11 (7.695 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week (35.695 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week (219.695 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 13:20.31 | sean_mosko | koen: you'll be at FOSDEM right? |
| 13:21.02 | Stephmw | he's better be, I want to drool over that device :) |
| 13:21.32 | Elrond | Hi Sean! |
| 13:21.51 | koen | sean_mosko: yes |
| 13:21.51 | sean_mosko | hehe...I'll have some there with me. |
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| 13:22.42 | koen | hey lrg |
| 13:22.49 | Elrond | <-- get's some food. |
| 13:23.04 | Stephmw | sean_mosko: you do realise you're not sleeping the whole 3 days, right? |
| 13:23.14 | sean_mosko | koen: great. we'll have to get some beers with mickey. he's got his PhD defense really soon. Probably be all stressed out at that point. |
| 13:23.24 | sean_mosko | stephmw: i don't sleep. |
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| 13:24.19 | Stephmw | sean_mosko: I remember working with a supplier in .tw, they had their guys working 11-hour days, are you on those too? |
| 13:24.46 | sean_mosko | oh man...i seriously work from 8 AM to 2 AM. Sometimes even longer. |
| 13:24.47 | lrg | hey koen |
| 13:26.33 | Stephmw | sean_mosko: planning a well deserved holiday after the launch? |
| 13:27.00 | koen | sean_mosko: I suspect it will go like this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/koenkooi/379165991/ |
| 13:27.14 | sean_mosko | stephmw: you bet! I'm searching out islands now in the south pacific. my favorite is tavarua. but it's really expensive to stay there. |
| 13:29.12 | Stephmw | hmm, the only one I know of is vanuatu - but I don't think it's a tourist heaven |
| 13:29.12 | Stephmw | koen: you need to add notes with names to that pic |
| 13:29.13 | Stephmw | sean_mosko: for mickey, http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=810 |
| 13:29.37 | Stephmw | oh, and http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=816 |
| 13:29.49 | sean_mosko | stephmw: http://www.tavarua.com/ (it's THE surfers' paradise) |
| 13:30.42 | sean_mosko | koen: looks like mickey's about to puke ;-) |
| 13:31.28 | Stephmw | sean_mosko: aaaaah, Fiji, figures |
| 13:32.03 | koen | Stephmw: notes added |
| 13:32.39 | Stephmw | koen: ta muchly |
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| 13:39.47 | strawberryjam | i am très bored |
| 13:49.07 | koen | Stephmw: with the notes added you should have enough information on how to bribe mickey|tv :) |
| 13:50.31 | Stephmw | koen: bribing is good, it's separate category in my kphotoalbum :) |
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| 15:50.41 | DukeOfURL | hello up there... |
| 15:53.13 | DukeOfURL | Does anyone have speaker recognition software running on Linux? (a.k.a. voice print) |
| 15:53.40 | DukeOfURL | a.k.a. speaker verification |
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| 16:04.54 | aloril2_ | nice, Sean was here |
| 16:06.02 | Elrond | Reminds me to write him a mail. |
| 16:07.45 | Stephmw | Elrond: surely he's used to your "Is it ready yet?" emails by now? :D |
| 16:08.08 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - *lol* |
| 16:08.20 | Elrond | Huh. |
| 16:08.24 | Elrond | Stephmw - *lol* |
| 16:08.35 | Elrond | Stephmw wants to try the pillory ;) |
| 16:19.23 | *** join/#openmoko zecke (n=ich@dsl-62-220-14-162.berlikomm.net) |
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| 17:59.57 | noidd | counter |
| 17:59.57 | aloril | a week 12:00:02 (7.500 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week (35.500 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week (219.500 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 18:00.00 | noidd | :-P |
| 18:01.10 | SpeedEvil | A week is a long time in phonetics. |
| 18:02.28 | Clint | who wouldn't? |
| 18:02.47 | SpeedEvil | I wouldn't. |
| 18:03.03 | SpeedEvil | I probably can't devote enough time to it at teh moment. |
| 18:03.21 | wm_eddie | I probably can't either, but if I had one I'd try really hard. |
| 18:03.52 | SpeedEvil | I have actual large holes in my house. |
| 18:03.53 | DukeOfURL | has anyone received a phone yet? |
| 18:03.58 | SpeedEvil | That I really need to fix. |
| 18:04.02 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 18:04.10 | koen | DukeOfURL: scroll up ~4 minutes |
| 18:04.20 | *** join/#openmoko jserv2 (n=jserv@linux3.cc.ntu.edu.tw) |
| 18:04.32 | wm_eddie | Since the phone is made in tw should I expect cjk support... I'm mostly interested in J though. |
| 18:04.42 | DukeOfURL | so nobody here has actually seen one? |
| 18:05.33 | wm_eddie | The people who have built the ones that are going to be shipped in a week probably have. |
| 18:05.42 | DukeOfURL | duh |
| 18:05.54 | DukeOfURL | nobody *here* |
| 18:06.43 | noidd | maybe :-) |
| 18:06.59 | DukeOfURL | SpeedEvil: holes? are you in Florida? |
| 18:07.06 | koen | search for 'openmoko' on flickr |
| 18:07.27 | wm_eddie | Hopefully SpeedEvil isn't in Pittsburgh, it's going to be nearly -20C tonight. |
| 18:07.37 | SpeedEvil | No - I'm ripping off all the plasterboard to insulate, then replacing with new. |
| 18:08.04 | SpeedEvil | Also - needing to replace tiles in one strip, and lead over the eaves. |
| 18:13.10 | DukeOfURL | The water boiler under my kitchen sink is flooding--I've got water all over the floor :=( |
| 18:15.33 | cbpage | ouch :( |
| 18:15.37 | SpeedEvil | Do you know where the isolator valve is? |
| 18:15.45 | SpeedEvil | Gas or electric? |
| 18:16.05 | wm_eddie | electric + water doesn't sound like a good combination. |
| 18:16.12 | SpeedEvil | It can be quite safe. |
| 18:19.46 | *** join/#openmoko bursuc17 (n=fff@244.Red-88-19-178.staticIP.rima-tde.net) |
| 18:20.10 | DukeOfURL | I've got everything turned off and have mopped the floor. |
| 18:20.25 | DukeOfURL | A plastic fitting on the water main broke. |
| 18:20.56 | DukeOfURL | And nobody supplied parts for Franke appliances. |
| 18:21.03 | DukeOfURL | supplies |
| 18:22.12 | DukeOfURL | Back to Neo--does anyone know about speaker recognition aka speaker identification aka speaker verification? |
| 18:22.28 | DukeOfURL | I'm looking for a biometric identification method. |
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| 18:25.59 | zipola | Sounds a bit utopistic on such a small device. |
| 18:26.13 | DukeOfURL | just software... |
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| 18:30.51 | emacsen | With the openmoko, will users be able to access the gps? |
| 18:31.08 | koen | of course not |
| 18:31.15 | koen | you have to pay $$$ for that |
| 18:31.22 | emacsen | har har. I didn't see the wiki before |
| 18:31.22 | koen | </US carrier> |
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| 18:33.24 | emacsen | me.dium + gps :) |
| 18:37.40 | pvanhoof | koen, little correction: tinymail does not fork the entire eds framework |
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| 18:38.04 | pvanhoof | it only uses a modified part of a version of a component of eds |
| 18:38.15 | pvanhoof | being camel :) |
| 18:38.37 | pvanhoof | which is a component that is very disconnected form the rest of the eds framework |
| 18:38.41 | pvanhoof | s/form/from |
| 18:38.52 | koen | yes, I read your mails and blog posts |
| 18:38.57 | pvanhoof | ok :) |
| 18:38.59 | pH5 | pvanhoof: so if we compile eds without camel there is no duplication? |
| 18:39.02 | koen | I'm not a user, I get things the first time around |
| 18:39.06 | pH5 | koen: :) |
| 18:39.10 | pvanhoof | pH5, exactly |
| 18:39.20 | pvanhoof | koen, I just wanted to echo that, to avoid any confusion :) |
| 18:39.28 | pvanhoof | but I understand that it might have been unclear |
| 18:39.49 | koen | evo2 is a mess |
| 18:39.53 | pvanhoof | pH5, the duplication will be limited to ... a reeeaaallly small piece of code |
| 18:40.10 | pvanhoof | https://svn.tinymail.org/svn/tinymail/trunk/libtinymail-camel/camel-lite/libedataserver/ |
| 18:40.15 | pvanhoof | that part of eds |
| 18:40.18 | pvanhoof | and .. |
| 18:40.37 | pvanhoof | if you want to really really avoid that, you can also let the configure.ac of camel-lite link with eds's original libedataserver |
| 18:41.04 | pvanhoof | https://svn.tinymail.org/svn/tinymail/trunk/libtinymail-camel/camel-lite/camel/Makefile.am |
| 18:41.16 | koen | 268K usr/lib/libcamel-1.2.so.0.0.0 |
| 18:41.19 | pvanhoof | $(top_builddir)/libedataserver/libedataserver-${API_VERSION}.a |
| 18:41.20 | pvanhoof | that one |
| 18:41.33 | koen | 140K usr/lib/libebook-1.2.so.5.0.2 |
| 18:41.34 | koen | 300kB |
| 18:41.36 | pvanhoof | replace it with the location of the .la (the la yes, not the a) of libedataserver |
| 18:41.40 | koen | that's not "really small" |
| 18:41.42 | pvanhoof | a means statically linked |
| 18:41.50 | pvanhoof | la means dynamically linked |
| 18:42.08 | pvanhoof | koen, oh but I mean the libedataserver part |
| 18:42.25 | pvanhoof | that 300kb is just part of tinymail. If you add everything together .. you must count ~ 2MB for tinymail |
| 18:42.37 | pvanhoof | storage space for the libraries and include files and etc etc |
| 18:42.58 | pvanhoof | and without debugging symbols, ~1.5 MB I think |
| 18:43.04 | pvanhoof | wait, I have a page for this on the trac |
| 18:43.14 | koen | pH5: I think a bit more granular packaging for eds-dbus would help a lot |
| 18:43.18 | pvanhoof | http://tinymail.org/trac/tinymail/wiki/LibrarySizes |
| 18:43.34 | koen | pH5: compare http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/repo/?name=tinymail&action=search with http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/repo/?name=eds&action=search |
| 18:43.41 | pvanhoof | right, it was 1.4 MB for the stripped binaries for tinymail |
| 18:43.48 | zipola | With OpenMoko ipkg-files, what should one put in the architecture field? |
| 18:43.58 | pvanhoof | by that I mean that if you put that 1.4 MB on it, next to a recent glib, that you have it running fully |
| 18:44.01 | koen | zipola: nothing, let OE handle it |
| 18:44.17 | pvanhoof | so that's all of tinymail, including the libedataserver pieces and the camel pieces |
| 18:44.24 | pvanhoof | gtg now |
| 18:44.36 | zipola | Does that mean that I should create packages through OE? |
| 18:44.42 | koen | zipola: yes |
| 18:45.04 | pvanhoof | gone... feel free to ask more when I'm back :) |
| 18:45.55 | morricone | somehow the right one looks cheap: http://www.flickr.com/photos/palmsolo/350847584/in/photostream/ |
| 18:47.11 | koen | "Hi, I'm made of uebercheap plastic" |
| 18:48.02 | koen | http://www.flickr.com/photos/palmsolo/353166962/ looks pretty neat |
| 18:48.31 | pH5 | I wonder if you can open that with a flick of the wrist. |
| 18:49.14 | koen | "SXGen"? |
| 18:50.00 | koen | http://www.prnewswire.com/mnr/sxgen/26495/ |
| 18:50.23 | koen | "Based around the intel PXA 270 Xscale™ 520 MHz processor, the base S-XGen includes 256MB of RAM, a 20GB hard drive and Wi-Fi, Bluetooth and tri-band cellular wireless and direct Ethernet, USB and RJ45 connectivity. A 4-inch TFT 470 x 280 resolution touch screen" |
| 18:50.36 | *** join/#openmoko orospakr (n=orospakr@CPE000ce54d00d0-CM0011ae92b8aa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 18:52.09 | pH5 | http://www.slwf.net/main-site/downloads/SXGENData.pdf: M.S.R.P with Microsoft Office included: $1,395.00 :) |
| 18:52.26 | koen | 5 neos :) |
| 18:54.30 | *** join/#openmoko timonator (i=timo@anno.name) |
| 18:54.55 | timonator | hello folks. my father just asked me if the openMoKo cellphone would be able to connect to the cellphone communication network something in germany |
| 18:55.00 | SpeedEvil | YUes. |
| 18:55.09 | SpeedEvil | germany uses GSM. |
| 18:55.18 | SpeedEvil | So it will make calls there. |
| 18:55.23 | SpeedEvil | If that's what you are asking. |
| 18:55.25 | timonator | he says something about a "D-netz" and an "E-netz" and something |
| 18:55.36 | timonator | and that america uses something completely different |
| 18:55.43 | SpeedEvil | it used to. |
| 18:55.51 | SpeedEvil | The whole of europe now uses GSM. |
| 18:55.59 | SpeedEvil | And large parts of america are switching to it. |
| 18:56.09 | SpeedEvil | The neo only supports GSM. |
| 18:56.28 | emacsen | timonator, umm... the US doesn't have a single system. we have 3 or so |
| 18:56.28 | SpeedEvil | It will work with any german carrier, though only some USA ones. |
| 18:56.31 | emacsen | including GSM |
| 18:56.52 | SpeedEvil | Clarification: It will not work with '3G' carriers. |
| 18:57.21 | emacsen | the next version will though I hear |
| 18:57.32 | pH5 | SpeedEvil: are there 3G only carriers in germany? |
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| 18:57.40 | dottedmag | SpeedEvil: aren't 3G networks backward-compatible with GSM? |
| 18:57.48 | SpeedEvil | No. |
| 18:57.56 | SpeedEvil | There are seperate frequency allocations. |
| 18:58.00 | koen | '3G' means GSM + UMTS |
| 18:58.09 | koen | it will use gsm for voice and UMTS for data |
| 18:58.18 | mjr | the phones generally, yeah, work on "2g" networks also |
| 18:58.31 | koen | the *UMTS* frequencies were allocated seperately |
| 18:58.33 | SpeedEvil | However, the carrier may not allow you to use a 2G only phone. |
| 18:58.39 | SpeedEvil | Oh. |
| 18:58.55 | SpeedEvil | For example, '3' in the UK will blacklist a SIM if you're using it in a 2G only phone. |
| 18:59.31 | SpeedEvil | As there buisness plan is selling video clips/... content through the UTMS side. |
| 18:59.35 | koen | that just makes '3' a crummy provider |
| 18:59.51 | SpeedEvil | Well - yes - they were the first with UTMS to the UK. |
| 18:59.54 | koen | my '3g' subscriptions allows me to use a 2.5G phone |
| 19:00.13 | SpeedEvil | By quite a margain, with _heavily_ subsidised handsets. |
| 19:00.48 | SpeedEvil | To the extent that some retailers were offering on some phones 100% cashback after 1 year. |
| 19:03.00 | timonator | will the openmoko software/cellphone play those java based games? (i see no reason it wouldn't) |
| 19:03.33 | noidd | a friend of mine worked for "3" for a while |
| 19:03.48 | noidd | she had 4 3G phones which she took to london.pm meetings |
| 19:03.58 | noidd | and we played with video conferencing across the bar :-P |
| 19:04.10 | dottedmag | timonator: if someone ports closed-source java me (IIRC, Sun did not publish open-source ME yet) - yes. |
| 19:04.21 | timonator | ah i see |
| 19:04.28 | noidd | that was 5 years ago tho, before the company actually started selling service. |
| 19:04.33 | mjr | actually, sun _did_ publish java ME as free |
| 19:04.50 | mjr | and yeah, it needs porting and adapting to openembedded |
| 19:05.04 | *** join/#openmoko mikesh (n=mikesh@x133.net.upc.cz) |
| 19:05.05 | dottedmag | mjr: free as a speech or beer? |
| 19:05.21 | wm_eddie | speech. |
| 19:05.26 | dottedmag | good. |
| 19:06.17 | mjr | yeah, the release was part of their java-gpling campaign |
| 19:06.36 | emacsen | it's just a matter of time. they will release it |
| 19:08.13 | mjr | as said, they did already (if we're still talking ME) |
| 19:08.19 | emacsen | Free Java's in Debian already |
| 19:08.24 | *** join/#openmoko ajturner (n=ajturner@d14-69-64-67.try.wideopenwest.com) |
| 19:08.33 | emacsen | so it'll be in openembed soon I espect |
| 19:08.35 | emacsen | expect |
| 19:09.48 | mjr | koen did some preliminary package attempts but there was some problems; nobody else has been game to try it for now. Probably will at some point, though, yeah. |
| 19:09.49 | timonator | kdrive is the X server it uses, yes? i'm a little bit of a gamer person. will the cpu power allow for some small games to be developed with, say, SDL or directly in xlib? (ugh!) |
| 19:10.21 | mjr | timonator, yes, and SDL seems to be the recommended thing for things like that |
| 19:13.22 | mjr | (the developers have also mentioned that hardware scrolling across a larger virtual viewport is possible, though not sure if software support for switching to an arbitrary virtual res will be in at first) |
| 19:15.20 | timonator | but the whole flash memory of the phone can be altered and updated? |
| 19:15.33 | SpeedEvil | It's not. |
| 19:15.41 | mjr | SpeedEvil, avk |
| 19:15.43 | mjr | ack |
| 19:15.45 | SpeedEvil | The display hardware only supports one res. |
| 19:15.59 | SpeedEvil | It's the display itself that switches to qvga |
| 19:16.05 | SpeedEvil | 320*240 |
| 19:16.26 | SpeedEvil | Or rather - there is no possible way to 'stretch' things to fill the screen. |
| 19:16.29 | emacsen | timonator, you can play nethack at full resolution with all the action you demand! |
| 19:16.35 | *** join/#openmoko ajturner_ (n=ajturner@d14-69-64-67.try.wideopenwest.com) |
| 19:16.37 | mjr | fair enough, however, I was talking about virtual scrollable res, not physical |
| 19:17.04 | timonator | emacsen: how about the input? nethack uses quite a lot of keys |
| 19:17.14 | SpeedEvil | nethack with 0 buttons. |
| 19:17.15 | mjr | (QVGA aside, though that's great too, whatever component does that) |
| 19:17.16 | SpeedEvil | Oh joy. |
| 19:17.32 | emacsen | gestures, or buttons for most actions, or menus. there are gui nethack versions |
| 19:17.38 | SpeedEvil | There are. |
| 19:17.49 | SpeedEvil | But they typically take up a lot of the screen with the UI. |
| 19:18.00 | SpeedEvil | And there isn't much screen. |
| 19:18.35 | emacsen | SpeedEvil, yeah I have concerns about text on the openmoko too |
| 19:18.40 | emacsen | erm the neo |
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| 19:21.19 | *** join/#openmoko behdad (n=behdad@pool-71-243-11-232.bos.east.verizon.net) |
| 19:21.25 | behdad | heya |
| 19:23.04 | CM | morning :) |
| 19:24.36 | SpeedEvil | I think 80*25 is going to be readable at 20cm. |
| 19:24.43 | SpeedEvil | For me at least - not 30cm. |
| 19:27.51 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w|usa (n=bob@64-60-160-98.static-ip.telepacific.net) |
| 19:28.10 | rob_w|usa | hey all |
| 19:29.15 | *** join/#openmoko terrex (n=terrex@84-122-65-39.onocable.ono.com) |
| 19:29.36 | behdad | so, what's the screen resolution of the Neo device? |
| 19:29.48 | cbpage | 640x480 |
| 19:31.51 | behdad | at what dpi? |
| 19:31.56 | behdad | 200? |
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| 19:32.08 | pH5 | 285dpi |
| 19:32.11 | MetaBookfoziS | ~counter |
| 19:32.19 | behdad | OMG |
| 19:32.21 | behdad | really?! |
| 19:32.23 | pH5 | 200dpi equals a 4" screen at 640x480 |
| 19:32.24 | pH5 | yup |
| 19:32.35 | behdad | O...M...G |
| 19:32.51 | timonator | "omfg it's so fucking good" or "omfg noone can read that stuff"? |
| 19:33.08 | behdad | f good |
| 19:33.10 | koen | behdad: http://www.openmoko.com/press/index.html would have told you the same |
| 19:33.25 | cjb | pH5: that would be the highest resolution small screen I've ever seen, so I expect you made a mistake? |
| 19:33.32 | behdad | koen: sorry. kinda wanted to open up a conversation :) |
| 19:34.07 | behdad | cjb: seems like its true |
| 19:34.15 | mickey|tv | cheers behdad: you're the behdad from gnome-performance? |
| 19:34.45 | behdad | mickey|tv: yeah. I'm kinda the only behdad in free software |
| 19:34.46 | koen | mickey|tv: Mr Pango would be a better title :) |
| 19:35.29 | mickey|tv | behdad: excellent. glad you found your way in here. I'm following your pango magic with interest. |
| 19:36.14 | behdad | mickey|tv: I recently found some time to setup my n770 and olpc for development, so I thought I may hang around here too. |
| 19:36.31 | mickey|tv | behdad: cool. we are having serious performance problems w/ pixmap engines in gtk+ 2.6... think you could do your magic to that when you have a chance? :) |
| 19:36.34 | MetaBookfoziS | olpc is out? |
| 19:36.47 | cjb | MetaBookfoziS: for developers. |
| 19:36.51 | behdad | mickey|tv: where can I read about it? |
| 19:36.53 | MetaBookfoziS | opjep. |
| 19:37.22 | mickey|tv | behdad: unfortunately i didn't have time to publish anything yet. it's just that drawing takes ages on our s3c2410 |
| 19:37.27 | behdad | mickey|tv: we have lots of hardcore hackers around cairo these days. pixmap engines in gtk+ should seriously be deprecated and/or merged with cairo |
| 19:37.40 | behdad | mickey|tv: are you scaling? blending? |
| 19:38.26 | cjb | we're getting pretty awful performance on OLPC, 'cause our CPU only supports alpha-blending in the same graphics format, and cairo doesn't know about the format our CPU accelerates. |
| 19:38.30 | mickey|tv | behdad: I'm using engine "pixmap", both scaling pixmaps and alphablending (where it works... it doesn't for some critical UI elements like GTK_SHADOW but that's another sad story) |
| 19:38.53 | cjb | it would be good to have a generic gtk/gnome-performance-on-small-devices mailing list :) |
| 19:39.11 | behdad | cjb: there is an embedded-list iirc. not open unfortunately |
| 19:39.24 | koen | we tried to get on the embedded-list |
| 19:39.28 | koen | no response sofar |
| 19:39.42 | koen | maybe FIC should donate to the gnome-foundation |
| 19:39.44 | koen | *cough* |
| 19:39.47 | behdad | cjb: and dan was telling about your problems to us (krh mostly) . the problem is that you can't get sensible alpha and color in 16bits |
| 19:40.14 | cjb | behdad: yeah. |
| 19:40.44 | behdad | silly q: are arms bigendian? |
| 19:41.02 | mickey|tv | they can do both |
| 19:41.08 | mickey|tv | switchable |
| 19:41.11 | behdad | I see |
| 19:41.21 | behdad | so what do nokia and openmoko systems use? |
| 19:41.27 | koen | LE |
| 19:41.30 | behdad | k |
| 19:41.32 | mickey|tv | armv4le |
| 19:41.36 | koen | but it gets better |
| 19:41.42 | koen | openmoko stores floats in BE |
| 19:41.44 | behdad | so do they have a fast LE<->BE convertor opcode? |
| 19:41.49 | Kero | all arms? I know the armv4l can do both |
| 19:42.07 | mickey|tv | Kero: IIRC anything above arm7, but i'm not sure on that |
| 19:43.35 | mickey|tv | behdad: so, back to the performance problems. atm., we are trying to finish hardware and base integration issues to ship the first batch of phones. once this is somehow stable, i'd like to give you and [perhaps you can recommend someone] a Neo to take a look at the performance problems. Would you be interested? |
| 19:44.04 | mikesh | counter |
| 19:44.04 | aloril | a week 10:15:55 (7.428 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week (35.428 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week (219.428 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 19:44.56 | koen | behdad: see http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=350973 for an explanation from BE/LE and floats on arm |
| 19:45.19 | behdad | mickey|tv: sure. I'll pass you name(s) for other people who surely will help you. |
| 19:46.03 | mickey|tv | behdad: excellent. please send us a mail to coreteam@internal.openmoko.org introducing you and I'll make sure you guys get handsets once hw is stable. |
| 19:46.22 | behdad | mickey|tv: will do. thanks! |
| 19:46.30 | mickey|tv | np, thank you for all your work. |
| 19:47.28 | behdad | any plan to move to gtk+ 2.10 here? |
| 19:47.35 | behdad | cairo's so sexy these days... |
| 19:48.04 | koen | gtk 2.10.x is still slower as 2.6 |
| 19:48.52 | behdad | koen: text rendering has catched up at least :) |
| 19:48.58 | koen | I know |
| 19:49.35 | behdad | hopefully we can get back to core performance hacking when gnome 2.18 is out |
| 19:49.35 | koen | I (and a few others) maintain cairo/pango/gtk+ in OE |
| 19:49.50 | Kero | is the graphics chip capable of opengl (glitz?) that cairo supports? |
| 19:50.11 | koen | Kero: there isn't really a graphics chip, just a dump framebuffer |
| 19:50.43 | koen | the 3d capable chips found on ARMs (omap2, pxa270w) all have closed drivers |
| 19:52.07 | timonator | try mesa |
| 19:52.09 | timonator | lol |
| 19:52.25 | koen | better try vincent, or some other opengl-es implementation |
| 19:53.57 | zipola | Who needs 3D graphics? ;) |
| 19:54.39 | Kero | to make fancy 3D renderings of mountains I'll hike! |
| 19:54.40 | wm_eddie | not I. I just need Japanese input and ability to read Japanese e-mails. |
| 19:54.43 | timonator | dude haven't you heard of microsofts new smartphone that runs vista? i heard it uses a holographic display which makes windows appear to float in front of the screen! ant it does 1024x786 resolution! |
| 19:55.50 | Kero | O wait, I'll have a view on the real mountains, then. |
| 19:55.50 | morricone | me, too |
| 19:55.50 | cbpage | tim - and 5 seconds battery life! |
| 19:55.50 | timonator | cbpage: the 5 seconds of YOUR LIFE! |
| 19:55.51 | timonator | :) |
| 19:55.51 | wm_eddie | 5 seconde PS3 |
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| 19:58.15 | pH5 | wm_eddie: do you know if there is any free HWR system for linux that supports kanji+kana? |
| 19:58.58 | wm_eddie | There's a couple... |
| 19:59.59 | behdad | pH5: there was KanjiPad that Owen Taylor did years ago |
| 20:00.05 | wm_eddie | Kanjipad... yeah |
| 20:00.17 | pH5 | behdad: I know, but this is for kanji only. |
| 20:00.18 | behdad | http://fishsoup.net/software/kanjipad/ |
| 20:00.23 | behdad | right |
| 20:00.44 | pH5 | http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~zabel/gpe-kanjipad/gpe-kanjipad-screenshot.png |
| 20:01.17 | pH5 | that's why I asked, but I never found a free backend for kana recognition that I could use. |
| 20:02.00 | behdad | it's based on jstroke. maybe that has newer versions that do |
| 20:06.18 | wm_eddie | It looks like it's gpl to me... |
| 20:06.23 | wm_eddie | Unless I'm missing something. |
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| 20:22.02 | fluffs | happy 2.6.20 day |
| 20:23.57 | cbpage | woot :) |
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| 20:26.36 | koen | so we only need to update over 3 kernel versions for the neo |
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| 22:03.28 | koen | pvanhoof, rejon: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-devel/2007-February/000230.html |
| 22:04.05 | pvanhoof | cool koen |
| 22:04.26 | pvanhoof | We can certainly put some effort into making it easy to package the camel parts of tinymail |
| 22:04.46 | koen | pvanhoof: http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/repo/?name=tinymail&action=search |
| 22:04.55 | pvanhoof | It would of course be great of ross and mallum could be convinced to have the camel-lite of tinymail into eds-dbus |
| 22:05.13 | pvanhoof | but as I said ... they are only interested to "phased" bring upstream camel to their eds |
| 22:05.44 | pvanhoof | koen, it might be useful to put a SVN-revision number in the filenames somehwere |
| 22:05.53 | pvanhoof | as those are packages of an unreleased tinymail :) |
| 22:06.06 | pvanhoof | so that people *know* that this ain't the final package |
| 22:06.28 | koen | pvanhoof: click on one of the packages |
| 22:06.41 | pvanhoof | ok, I see now |
| 22:06.47 | pvanhoof | cool, thanks for the effort |
| 22:07.01 | koen | sadly I can't get the revision number back from the svn fetcher |
| 22:07.06 | pvanhoof | feel free to post updates about your packages on the mailinglist and/or make a wiki page about it on tinymail's trac |
| 22:07.12 | koen | but with svn dates are almost as good |
| 22:07.13 | pvanhoof | hmm, svn info? |
| 22:07.43 | pvanhoof | oh but at the speed of committing :), dates might not say a lot about the API :D |
| 22:07.52 | pvanhoof | unless you add minutes :) |
| 22:07.53 | koen | I would not be hard to put that into the bitbake svn fetcher, but python is starting to make my eyes bleed |
| 22:08.01 | pvanhoof | I can imagine |
| 22:08.31 | pvanhoof | so are you packaging for openmoko now koen ? ;) |
| 22:08.49 | koen | openmoko uses OE, so I guess "yes" |
| 22:08.58 | pvanhoof | oh, nice |
| 22:09.05 | pvanhoof | are they shipping with a glib 2.8? |
| 22:09.18 | koen | glib 2.12 iirc |
| 22:09.24 | pvanhoof | they don't need to ship gtk+2.6, but glib > 2.8 would be very useful |
| 22:09.30 | pvanhoof | oohhhhhh, nicce |
| 22:09.31 | pvanhoof | :) |
| 22:09.39 | pvanhoof | drewl |
| 22:10.00 | pvanhoof | well, the thing with glib 2.8 is indeed gslice |
| 22:10.20 | pvanhoof | I was fearing that I would have to include a .h file with a macro that translates g_slice_* to g_malloc |
| 22:10.34 | koen | pvanhoof: http://www.openembedded.org/repo/org.openembedded.dev/packages/gtk+/gtk+-2.6.10/compile-against-newer-glib.patch |
| 22:10.35 | pvanhoof | other than gslice isn't tinymail using any *new* > glib 2.8 feature |
| 22:10.56 | pvanhoof | cool |
| 22:11.07 | pvanhoof | that's the only change that was needed for gtk+? |
| 22:11.15 | koen | no |
| 22:11.16 | pvanhoof | you might want to notify the gtk+ maintainers of that patch |
| 22:11.17 | koen | for i in `find . -name "Makefile.am"` |
| 22:11.17 | koen | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:11.17 | koen | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:11.20 | koen | is the other |
| 22:11.27 | pvanhoof | heh :) |
| 22:11.52 | pvanhoof | well, I think it would be interesting for gtk+'s team to know about what was needed |
| 22:12.07 | koen | well, ross told us what to do |
| 22:12.18 | pvanhoof | cool, so listen to ross. He knows :) |
| 22:12.26 | koen | we did :) |
| 22:13.13 | pvanhoof | (but don'y listen to much about camel. I know/think or *feel* that he's not satisfied with my decision to fork-change camel for tinymail |
| 22:13.15 | pvanhoof | :-) |
| 22:13.33 | pvanhoof | which is why I stressed to hard on the evolution-data-server vs. tinymail's camel-lite issue |
| 22:13.50 | pvanhoof | I want to make sure that there's absolutely no way to introduce misconceptions |
| 22:14.00 | pvanhoof | s/to hard/so hard |
| 22:14.31 | pvanhoof | anyway, I simply had to .. if I wanted to get things done |
| 22:14.56 | pvanhoof | it was not much about deciding but rather about facts, reality, and getting things done (c) |
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| 23:06.02 | rejon | koen: what's up? |
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| 23:17.16 | rwhitby | hey rejon. I really like the way you are bringing people together on the mailing list. Makes a refreshing change from the stuff that was going on before you joined :-) |
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| 23:20.17 | rejon | thx rwhitby: I just don't want to see the poisonous ppl. take over in any project |
| 23:20.20 | rejon | :) |
| 23:20.32 | rwhitby | rejon: amen to that. |
| 23:20.43 | rejon | I want this project to be successful and have learned from my other projects, inkscape.org and openclipart.org what to do/say to keep it on track |
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| 23:21.05 | rejon | Its hard though because without code released, ppl. tend to spin out without some thing to focus on |
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| 23:21.12 | rejon | hence, the wiki strategy |
| 23:21.22 | rejon | gives one thing to focus on :) |
| 23:21.35 | rejon | yah, I gotta get tinymail running |
| 23:21.37 | rwhitby | rejon: me too - I have over 10,000 subscribers on nslu2-linux mailing lists, and we never seem have these religious debates or poison. |
| 23:21.58 | rejon | Yah, I've foujnd you just have to nip the conversations off offlist |
| 23:22.06 | rejon | ppl. love a good brawl, just like in real life |
| 23:24.00 | cbpage | yeah... i put the community list on digest the moment the devel list came out |
| 23:24.15 | koen | digest? |
| 23:24.30 | cbpage | probably the saner idea ;) |
| 23:24.41 | cbpage | i haven't actually read the digests |
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| 23:25.29 | cbpage | it's too bad the arm's with 2d accel don't have free drivers |
| 23:25.45 | koen | cbpage: you mean 3d |
| 23:25.58 | SpeedEvil | Even 2d'd be nice. |
| 23:26.02 | rejon | Yah, since the dev. list came out, it knocked down the community list |
| 23:26.11 | koen | a lot of 2d accell 'chips' have open drivers |
| 23:26.19 | koen | w100 and pxa270 for example |
| 23:26.26 | rejon | or rather, split participation and the poisonous ppl. ran out of venom |
| 23:26.35 | SpeedEvil | Yeah - you really, really don't want a non-integrated ont. |
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| 23:27.42 | koen | rwhitby: http://lists.linuxtogo.org/pipermail/openembedded-devel/2007-February/001368.html might be interesting for *slug* |
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| 23:36.29 | Morgreet | Heh, if the ML's been cleaned up a bit, maybe I'll join at last. :-) I find knockers and FUDsters and general negativity a total pain, prefer to work silently instead of all that non-tech crap. |
| 23:36.42 | Morgreet | counter |
| 23:36.43 | aloril | a week 06:23:17 (7.266 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week (35.266 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week (219.266 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 23:40.44 | Morgreet | I've been thinking up a possible DJ-type music control app for the phone, after having a ton of fun playing with DJplay. Could be great for parties, controlling the sound still while wandering around with phone -- getting requests while in the crowd, and cueing them up. |
| 23:42.01 | Morgreet | No wifi, so distance could be a bit of a problem, but could put a few Bt access points around. |
| 23:49.59 | SpeedEvil | IU assume the BT in the neo is class I - the 30m - if lucky on a good day one? |
| 23:50.47 | Morgreet | I wonder whether a class 2 (10m) Bluetooth device talking to a class 1 (100m) device would work over a fair bit more than the 10m of the weaker one ... |
| 23:51.00 | Morgreet | Oh, I wouldn't assume that ... I'd assume Neo is class 2 |
| 23:51.21 | SpeedEvil | Assume or hope? |
| 23:52.00 | SpeedEvil | Oh I see - classes roung the wrong way. |
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| 23:52.05 | Morgreet | No, I'd hope it's class 1, but I assume it's class 2. Because I've never seen a Bt gadget of class 1 ... only dongles and access points. |
| 23:53.02 | Morgreet | Not even gadgets like Bt laser barcode scanners are class 1, and that's an application that would make extreme good use of 100m range. Just not done. |
| 23:53.03 | SpeedEvil | A well implemented AP may have a better antenna than a device. |
| 23:53.17 | SpeedEvil | So it may have longer range than to a dongle. |
| 23:53.22 | Morgreet | Not sure why it's so, but it is. |
| 23:53.37 | SpeedEvil | The almighty dollar. |
| 23:53.52 | SpeedEvil | It's probably another $1 for higher power. |
| 23:54.14 | Morgreet | Doubt it, because a class 1 Belkin dongle only costs 10 quid more than a class 2, and that's with shop markups. |
| 23:54.34 | Morgreet | And laser scanners cost up to 800 or so quid, so the extra cost would not be significant |
| 23:54.37 | SpeedEvil | Actually maybe more if it needs extra hardware to do more serious power reductions. |
| 23:54.44 | Morgreet | Yeah |
| 23:54.45 | SpeedEvil | Also battery life. |
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