| 00:05.29 | *** join/#openmoko rwhitby (n=rwhitby@nslu2-linux/rwhitby) |
| 00:09.29 | *** join/#openmoko DukeOfURL (n=chatzill@vc7-1-39.dsl.netrack.net) |
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| 00:31.51 | duffyd | btw, are there many taiwanese developers on this channel? |
| 00:32.26 | duffyd | just curious as we're going to Taiwan in May and was wondering if I'll have a better chance of buying an openmoko there |
| 00:33.16 | DukeOfURL | Does anyone have experience with a GSM gateway? http://www.2n.cz/products/gsm_gateways.html |
| 00:50.27 | *** join/#openmoko voodoosmurf (n=voodoosm@209.168.162.146) |
| 00:51.36 | duffyd | well, I'm just guessing from the fact that FIC is a Taiwanese company that there must be quite a few Taiwanese developers here :-) |
| 00:51.45 | duffyd | that makes me feel happy |
| 00:52.02 | voodoosmurf | I didn't think anyone was in here |
| 00:52.25 | duffyd | voodoosmurf: :-) |
| 00:52.32 | duffyd | cool name btw ;-) |
| 00:52.36 | voodoosmurf | thx :) |
| 00:52.41 | newmedian | We're just the ghosts in the machine. |
| 00:52.46 | voodoosmurf | heh |
| 00:52.51 | duffyd | yeah |
| 00:53.04 | duffyd | well it's about 10am in Taiwan |
| 00:53.15 | duffyd | well actually 9am |
| 00:53.37 | voodoosmurf | it's.... 8 here on the east coast in the us |
| 00:53.39 | voodoosmurf | pm |
| 00:53.56 | newmedian | I think it tends to be busier "earlier" in the day. (It's 00:54 UTC) |
| 00:54.16 | voodoosmurf | yea, prob so... there a lot of developers that hang around in here? |
| 00:54.24 | duffyd | ok |
| 00:54.38 | duffyd | sorry that was a question ;-) |
| 00:54.42 | voodoosmurf | heh |
| 00:55.05 | newmedian | I've seen a few from the Planet here, but I've not been around long enough to identify everyone. |
| 00:55.26 | voodoosmurf | either of you know when this phone is goin to go on sale? |
| 00:55.38 | newmedian | 3/11/2007 |
| 00:55.45 | DukeOfURL | counter |
| 00:55.45 | aloril | a week, 3 days 05:04:14 (10.21 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.21 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.21 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 00:57.27 | duffyd | aloril: wow :-) |
| 00:58.46 | duffyd | I'll be in Taiwan when they go on sale :-) |
| 00:58.49 | duffyd | yay |
| 01:00.25 | DukeOfURL | My chatzilla shows ~200 people on the channel. How do I tell who is actually signed in? |
| 01:01.06 | voodoosmurf | hmmm... |
| 01:01.21 | parag0n | use a proper irc client? most of them have userlists |
| 01:01.43 | DukeOfURL | chatzilla isn't "proper"? |
| 01:01.49 | duffyd | wonder where Sean Moss-Pultz lives? |
| 01:01.52 | duffyd | US or Taiwan? |
| 01:05.12 | DukeOfURL | duffyd: how many hours from NZ to TW? |
| 01:06.20 | duffyd | well I've got a stopover in Sydney so from Sydney is 8 hours 15 mins |
| 01:07.00 | DukeOfURL | LA to Sydney is 14+ hours. |
| 01:07.20 | DukeOfURL | Big ocean |
| 01:08.05 | duffyd | yeah :-) |
| 01:08.21 | *** join/#openmoko bkuhn (n=bkuhn@atheist.ebb.org) |
| 01:08.31 | duffyd | DukeOfURL: what do you do for a living? |
| 01:08.52 | DukeOfURL | Voip telephone systems for small business |
| 01:09.04 | DukeOfURL | Asterisk |
| 01:09.13 | DukeOfURL | You? |
| 01:10.04 | duffyd | Plone developer |
| 01:10.10 | duffyd | i.e. plone.org |
| 01:10.37 | duffyd | DukeOfURL: interesting job, though - I can tell why you have come here ;-) |
| 01:10.47 | duffyd | your job is interesting that is ;-) |
| 01:11.06 | duffyd | I do use Asterisk personally - great platform |
| 01:11.08 | newmedian | Asterisk integration with OpenMoko would be good. |
| 01:12.11 | duffyd | newmedian: yeah :-) |
| 01:12.25 | voodoosmurf | Asterisk? |
| 01:12.33 | duffyd | asterisk.org (iirc) |
| 01:12.40 | DukeOfURL | I'm wondering about running Asterisk in the Neo... |
| 01:12.42 | duffyd | voip pabx |
| 01:12.58 | duffyd | in the Neo? |
| 01:12.59 | duffyd | wow |
| 01:14.17 | DukeOfURL | That's why I asked if anyone had experience with a GSM gateway. |
| 01:14.53 | DukeOfURL | mobile to mobile calls on Cingular are free. SIM in the Neo, SIM in the gateway, controlled by an Asterisk system. |
| 01:14.57 | newmedian | The first version of the phone .. does not have Wifi, right? |
| 01:15.04 | DukeOfURL | Does not |
| 01:15.13 | newmedian | Unfortunately. |
| 01:15.39 | duffyd | shame |
| 01:15.49 | newmedian | Especially since GPRS is $$$$ in Canada. |
| 01:15.59 | DukeOfURL | Am looking at establishing a modem (FSK) connection over the GSM connection... |
| 01:16.24 | newmedian | TDD? |
| 01:16.29 | DukeOfURL | Yes |
| 01:16.38 | newmedian | Interesting. |
| 01:26.41 | *** join/#openmoko parag0n (n=parag0n@popeshoe.gotadsl.co.uk) |
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| 03:50.37 | aloril | counter |
| 03:50.38 | aloril | a week, 3 days 02:09:22 (10.09 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.09 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.09 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
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| 04:33.40 | aloril | counter |
| 04:33.40 | aloril | a week, 3 days 01:26:20 (10.060 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.060 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.060 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 04:33.50 | LoRez | damn that's annoying. |
| 04:34.17 | Agrajag- | i reckon |
| 04:34.41 | aloril | LoRez: hehe, I changed it slightly again ;-) |
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| 04:51.35 | cying | any openmoko team folks around? |
| 04:58.52 | *** join/#openmoko eikonos (n=eikonos@S0106001310d36705.gv.shawcable.net) |
| 05:04.40 | wiml | *crickets* |
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| 06:44.22 | koen|gprs | counter |
| 06:44.23 | aloril | a week, 2 days 23:15:37 (9.969 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 2 days (37.969 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 2 days (221.969 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 07:00.58 | CM | aloril: That google video of Bob Brodersens lecture was interesting, thanks :) |
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| 08:12.08 | *** join/#openmoko TRIsoft (n=mac@p57A2D155.dip.t-dialin.net) |
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| 08:14.25 | rob_w|mis | is that TRIsoft from Trisoft ? |
| 08:14.35 | *** join/#openmoko TRIsoft_ (n=mac@p57A2CEB2.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 08:15.28 | rob_w|mis | is that TRIsoft_ from Trisoft ? |
| 08:16.06 | TRIsoft_ | Yes, it is :-) |
| 08:16.53 | rob_w|mis | nice .. how is the Lisa stuff .. is that still alive ? |
| 08:17.36 | TRIsoft_ | *lookspuzzled* Lisa stuff ? We're the Zaurus guys... |
| 08:23.58 | rob_w|mis | oh ... didn you guys some years back also sell Ipaq`s with the strange lisa linux ? |
| 08:24.01 | rob_w|mis | sorry then |
| 08:24.14 | rob_w|mis | ah right ,,i bought my old zaurus back then from you |
| 08:29.55 | TRIsoft_ | ah, right. But the Ipaqs came from Lisa Systems in Hamburg. |
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| 09:06.38 | hrw | "I'm cuirous too, if we're lucky Marcin or Stefan will have a bit of news that will help us out." - why people on openmoko-community think that I have more about openmoko then they? :D |
| 09:06.43 | hrw | morning |
| 09:07.00 | TRIsoft | morning |
| 09:07.23 | TRIsoft | Maybe because you're hanging around here all the time ? |
| 09:09.01 | hrw | 25 hits from planet openmoko to my website and it will be top referrer instead of oesf forums |
| 09:09.04 | hrw | ;D |
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| 09:29.58 | slava | hi all |
| 09:34.58 | aloril | hi slava |
| 09:35.40 | slava | i'm interested in porting my language to the openmoko phone when it becomes available |
| 09:36.16 | dottedmag | slava: language? |
| 09:36.25 | slava | http://factorcode.org/ |
| 09:38.07 | aloril | slava: to quote koen: Follow the instructions on http://openembedded.org, MACHINE=ep93xx, DISTRO=generic should build compatible binaries. |
| 09:38.31 | slava | its not as easy as that :) |
| 09:38.31 | aloril | until we have source code release, it has some additional stuff but is mostly based on openembedded |
| 09:38.36 | slava | i'm still working on the ARM compiler backend |
| 09:38.40 | slava | should be done in a few adys |
| 09:38.44 | *** join/#openmoko dneary (n=dneary@251.9.39-62.rev.gaoland.net) |
| 09:38.49 | slava | mostly i'm interested in writing libraries for accessing the cellular and gps hardware |
| 09:38.59 | aloril | slava: yeah, I saw, but still.. I guess you eventually need above info |
| 09:39.01 | hrw | ah that ep93xx machine ;d |
| 09:39.27 | aloril | ah.. in that case you need to wait about 10 days |
| 09:39.29 | slava | will your arm9 cpu have an fpu? |
| 09:39.29 | aloril | counter |
| 09:39.29 | aloril | a week, 2 days 20:20:30 (9.848 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 2 days (37.848 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 2 days (221.848 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 09:39.59 | aloril | slava: no: http://www.openmoko.com/press/index.html -> http://www.samsung.com/Products/Semiconductor/MobileSoC/ApplicationProcessor/ARM9Series/S3C2410/S3C2410.htm |
| 09:40.51 | slava | ok thanks |
| 09:42.14 | aloril | qemu is emulator (don't recall arguments or so, but they have been mentioned in mailing list (I guess searching for qemu at archives should work: http://lists.openmoko.org ) |
| 09:42.21 | aloril | ) |
| 09:42.54 | slava | i'm running qemu and i also have a gumstix |
| 09:43.28 | slava | i planned on doing an arm port for a while and started a few days ago, then i came across the openmoko |
| 09:46.39 | slava | will it support GSM or GPRS only? |
| 09:46.40 | *** join/#openmoko ValiSystM (n=ValiSyst@81.56.207.165) |
| 09:48.30 | aloril | GSM and GPRS only |
| 09:48.41 | slava | is GSM the same thing as GPRS (forgive my ignorance)? |
| 09:49.25 | madwoota | no |
| 09:49.25 | aloril | GSM voice, data connections, fax, etc..: GSM is reserved connection |
| 09:50.50 | aloril | GPRS is packet protocol (usually IP) |
| 09:50.54 | *** join/#openmoko ValiSystM (n=ValiSyst@81.56.207.165) |
| 09:50.57 | slava | oh, ok |
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| 10:02.29 | Morgret | slava: Hi. I've just been reading your site. Interesting. Like a sort of Lua combined with Smalltalk but with a default set of libraries ... |
| 10:06.36 | Stephmw | mornin' |
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| 10:40.54 | Morgret | slava: where's the source code to the various images? I've got 'f' compiled, but I'm not going to run it on an unknown binary image. |
| 10:41.15 | slava | the images are built from the source code in the distribution |
| 10:41.22 | slava | you need a working factor build new images |
| 10:41.59 | Morgret | Does "a working factor" mean a working 'f'? |
| 10:42.13 | slava | no, it means a f plus bootstrapped factor.image |
| 10:43.14 | Morgret | But factor.image* are binaries. I want the source code of one. Can't start with a binary to generate a binary. :-) That's what killed Smalltalk. |
| 10:43.39 | slava | the factor.image and boot.image.* are generated from source. but the parser/compiler is written in factor |
| 10:43.50 | slava | now do you build gcc without having gcc? :) |
| 10:44.45 | Morgret | Using an earlier gcc, which is a standalone program. |
| 10:45.04 | slava | well, you need factor to build factor |
| 10:45.36 | slava | i think java killed smalltalk, not the nature of the implementation. and javac is written in java, you need sun's jdk installed to compile sun's jdk :) |
| 10:45.40 | Morgret | The image isn't the equivalent of gcc though. It's the equivalent of all the runtime libraries dumped together, plus the 'f' that you compile independently. |
| 10:45.49 | slava | 'f' isn't part of the image file |
| 10:46.05 | Morgret | I know, I've compiled it. What is 'f', conceptually? |
| 10:46.21 | *** join/#openmoko cbx33 (i=c2df514b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/ircatwork.com/x-4902c99349be74b8) |
| 10:46.22 | slava | its a loader, GC, and interpreter |
| 10:46.35 | slava | when you bootstrap, the compiler runs in the interpreter and compiles code in the boot.image to producce a factor.image |
| 10:47.33 | Morgret | OK, I understand that. Unfortunately, it presents a security problem, because the contents of boot.image are unknown in advance. |
| 10:47.58 | jouka_ | java is crappy |
| 10:48.10 | Morgret | Is there a standalone pretty printer at least, so that the contens of the boot.image can be examined? |
| 10:48.15 | slava | Morgret: the contents of the sources are in a sense unknown too, unless you happen to learn the language and study everything |
| 10:48.32 | slava | the image format is documented in vm/layout.h; get a hex dump tool and start digging :) |
| 10:49.07 | slava | a pretty printer would be easy to write, though. |
| 10:49.30 | Morgret | Well, your dev approach has cycles. Why not use a DAG approach and make the runtime image a composition of more primitive elements each of which can be produced independently? |
| 10:49.46 | slava | because that would entail writing large parts in C, such as the parser and core data structures |
| 10:49.47 | Elrond | What are you talking about? |
| 10:49.49 | cbx33 | hi all |
| 10:49.57 | cbx33 | heard about openmoko on lugradio |
| 10:50.06 | cbx33 | sounded cool so I thought I'd pop in and say hi |
| 10:50.08 | Morgret | Elrond: we're talking about slava's language "factor" |
| 10:50.35 | slava | Morgret: when one factor image builds another factor image, nothing is 'carried over'. its built up completely from sources |
| 10:50.39 | Elrond | cbx33 - Hi. |
| 10:50.41 | slava | its just that, eg, the parser is written in factor |
| 10:50.56 | slava | so 'f' cannot parse sources by itself |
| 10:51.21 | Elrond | Hmmm. |
| 10:51.25 | Morgret | slava: yeah, I'm fine with that. The stumbling block is not being able to see what's inside the pill before you swallow it. |
| 10:51.48 | cbx33 | the thought of having linux running on a phone so I can use a bash shell...is just awesome ;) |
| 10:51.50 | slava | when you download a piece of software, do you inspect every line of source code for potential vulnerabilities? ;) |
| 10:52.02 | cbx33 | slava good point |
| 10:52.15 | Morgret | slava: I don't inspect every last piece of code ... BUT I COULD IF I WISHED. |
| 10:52.56 | *** join/#openmoko pH5 (n=ph5@e178226191.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 10:53.22 | Morgret | slava: your security issue could be addressed simply by providing an image examiner, *not* written in Factor. |
| 10:53.32 | Elrond | Right. One of the ideas of (free) opensource. Reviewability. |
| 10:54.01 | slava | if somebody wishes to write such a tool, they're free to do so. personally i'm more interested in improving the compiler, libraries, GUI, etc. |
| 10:54.06 | Elrond | How does one bootstrap factor on a plain box? |
| 10:54.18 | slava | you use a boot image from the web site |
| 10:54.27 | Morgret | slava: for most languages it's not an issue, because their base code is text. Here yours is a binary format, so you have an issue. You ought to find a solution. |
| 10:54.28 | Elrond | aka binary? |
| 10:54.38 | slava | the image is not the 'base code'. |
| 10:54.43 | slava | the base code is plain text source. |
| 10:55.25 | Morgret | I've compiled up f. Now I want another piece of plain text source to start building up a small binary image, compositionally. Apparently, I can't. |
| 10:55.35 | slava | right, you can't. |
| 10:55.59 | Morgret | slava: so, Factor has a problem, for anyone who doesn't dismiss security as a valid concern. |
| 10:56.03 | Elrond | Huh. I'm missing something here. |
| 10:56.21 | slava | gcc has the same problem. |
| 10:56.23 | slava | so does the linux kernel |
| 10:56.26 | Morgret | slava: which is a pity, because I think Factor sounds terrific. |
| 10:57.04 | Elrond | slava - gcc can be compiled using another c compiler. |
| 10:57.16 | Morgret | Elrond: yep, good point |
| 10:57.17 | slava | anybody can implement a new factor compiler |
| 10:57.37 | Elrond | gcc comes in source only. ;) |
| 10:57.55 | slava | the boot image doesn't even have machine code. |
| 10:58.08 | slava | its just a serialized object graph of the source code in core/, generated by core/tools/image.factor |
| 10:58.28 | *** part/#openmoko friedel (n=fwolff@dsl-242-233-175.telkomadsl.co.za) |
| 10:58.33 | Elrond | So there is some sort of assembler for factor? |
| 10:58.50 | Elrond | Which converts "bytecode" to machine code? |
| 10:59.00 | slava | when you bootstrap, the compiler compiles all library definitions to machine code and saves a factor.image |
| 10:59.04 | hrw | slava: anyway - to get software to openmoko it has to be buildable in a way that if I start from clean dir then I fetch/unpack/patch/configure/compile all dependencies, toolchain and finally package. |
| 10:59.05 | slava | the compilation step is optional |
| 10:59.26 | slava | so how do you plan on building gcc? |
| 10:59.58 | Elrond | Using a cross compiler. :) |
| 11:00.09 | Morgret | Yeah, I understand how it hangs together. Slava, it's cool. Unfortunately, I can't run it, for the reasons I gave, which is a pity (for me) because I'd like to. The unknown binary image needs to be composable from smaller visible elements first, or at the very least convertible into a viewable form. |
| 11:00.33 | slava | i'm not pushing for factor to be included with the openmoko distribution, anyway. |
| 11:00.39 | slava | i'm just interested in putting some time into porting it over. |
| 11:00.48 | dottedmag | slava: factor just need the trust path. How did you bootstrapped it from the beginnings? |
| 11:00.59 | dottedmag | s/ed// |
| 11:01.08 | slava | it used to be implemented in java, and the java implementation would run entirely from source |
| 11:01.12 | slava | this was back in 2004 |
| 11:01.18 | Elrond | slava - Can you give me a short (three sentence) intro on factor? |
| 11:01.27 | slava | the first image for the native implementation was generated by the java implementation |
| 11:01.30 | Morgret | factor.sf.net |
| 11:01.38 | Elrond | ahh. |
| 11:02.08 | dottedmag | slava: well, it will enormously helpful if you can restore this implementation which can build at least subset of factor enough to compile full image. |
| 11:02.40 | slava | the java implementation is too out of date now. i haven't worked on it for 3 years |
| 11:03.10 | Morgret | I love the idea behind it. It's just blocked by a security/trust problem. You've done a good job building up a bootstrap path, but you need a deconstruct path too. Security is a concern these days. |
| 11:03.47 | slava | squeak smalltalk and various lisps such as sbcl follow a similar approach |
| 11:04.17 | Morgret | I know, that's why I chucked out Smalltalk here. I loved the language. |
| 11:04.20 | slava | i understand security is a concern; are you worried that I could hypothetically be inserting backdoors into the boot image? |
| 11:04.33 | slava | or that the boot images on the web site are comporomised? |
| 11:04.48 | Morgret | slava: not worried about you personally. But one needs to be consistent. |
| 11:06.37 | Morgret | I especially love Factor's philosophy of "If you can't understand the stack, your code segment is too long". |
| 11:06.47 | Elrond | Yep, web site compromises weren't too uncommon in the old days. ;) |
| 11:08.23 | *** join/#openmoko mikesh (n=mikesh@x133.net.upc.cz) |
| 11:09.37 | slava | i guess you're ruling out anything other than gcc, and a handful of scripting languages |
| 11:09.41 | slava | for your own use |
| 11:10.06 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (i=foobar@dslb-084-057-156-217.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 11:11.08 | Morgret | Just an image walker would probably be enough to provide the trust, as long as the image structure is defined and can't contain hidden inserts. I don't think recreating an alternative implementation is viable. |
| 11:11.37 | Elrond | Right. |
| 11:12.29 | Elrond | I still haven't really gotten the runtime model... |
| 11:12.55 | slava | its something i'll keep in mind for the future. i don't have a lot of time or resources right now. |
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| 11:14.48 | *** part/#openmoko hipitihop (n=hipitiho@c211-30-214-40.belrs1.nsw.optusnet.com.au) |
| 11:15.14 | slava | Elrond: the part written in C is an executable named 'f'; when you run it, it loads an image into memory and relocates it to its final address. this becomes the heap |
| 11:15.44 | slava | the heap holds data and code and is managed by a garbage collector and can be saved back to disk at any time |
| 11:15.57 | slava | you can also generate a new image from scratch, instead of taking a snapshot of the current heap |
| 11:16.15 | slava | where 'from scratch' means running a program inside your image which loads all the sources and serializes them in the correct format |
| 11:16.52 | Elrond | Ahhh. |
| 11:17.06 | Elrond | So how do you port to a new CPU? |
| 11:17.36 | slava | the C part has an interpreter, which is trivial to port. |
| 11:17.46 | slava | to get the interpreter running, i emit a boot image with the correct word size and endianness. |
| 11:17.53 | slava | then i port the compiler |
| 11:18.27 | Morgret | slave: You're porting the compiler from its binary. |
| 11:18.41 | Elrond | So the boot images aren't really CPU dependent, but only word size / endianness dependent? |
| 11:18.45 | *** join/#openmoko aloril2 (n=aloril@kaar72.airix.fi) |
| 11:18.58 | slava | Elrond: right. |
| 11:19.18 | slava | the files on the web site have cpu extensions because the relevant compiler backend is pre-loaded |
| 11:19.25 | slava | but one can do ./f boot.image.x86 -no-compile on an ARM, for instance |
| 11:20.00 | Elrond | So you really could put a boot.image.32bit-little-endian up? |
| 11:20.07 | slava | yes |
| 11:20.24 | slava | i could also create minimal boot images without any libraries other than the bare minimum to load other libraries. |
| 11:20.26 | Elrond | And the c runtime has an interpreter for that? |
| 11:20.28 | slava | this is very easy and i've done it before, just for fun |
| 11:20.44 | slava | Elrond: yes |
| 11:20.56 | Elrond | Ahh. |
| 11:21.11 | Elrond | It reminds me a bit of the labview runtime model. ;) |
| 11:21.33 | Morgret | slava: given such a barebones image, how would it be extended? I ask, because it it can then you have a means of growing your image compositionally, instead of used an opaque lump. |
| 11:21.50 | slava | you can load new code into a factor instance at any time. |
| 11:22.08 | slava | i'm doing this as we speak, testing bits of the ARM compiler, changing the source, and reloading it, without shutting down and restarting the environment. |
| 11:23.09 | Elrond | So there could be a minimal image, which only has the parser in it, and enough to parse/extend itself? |
| 11:23.11 | Morgret | slava: there's your solution then -- defactor everything into individual uncoupled images, write an image walker to display what' inside of each. Then let images grow by composition of only those parts needed. |
| 11:23.16 | Eblis | does anyone have the possibility to test Mono on an arm cpu ? |
| 11:23.33 | slava | Elrond: yes |
| 11:23.40 | slava | i've built such an image, its around 500kb |
| 11:24.06 | Elrond | That, and a image-pretty-printer would make Morgret happy. :) |
| 11:25.25 | Elrond | One could then compare the pretty printed with the shipped sources and say "Okay, there are no easter eggs in the image. I'm happy." |
| 11:25.41 | Morgret | Hehe. Well I love the idea behind the language. Just got a security concern here, and it's a concern that everybody else *should* have too, although of course that's for them to decide. |
| 11:26.07 | slava | Elrond: dumping the image won't give a byte for byte reproduction of the source |
| 11:26.22 | slava | it is possible to reconstruct source from the image -- you can use the 'see' function inside factor to do that |
| 11:26.29 | Elrond | slava - Yes. But a structural. The rest is Morgret's problem. ;) |
| 11:26.31 | slava | however you don't get the same whitespace, etc |
| 11:26.41 | slava | and comments are lost |
| 11:27.00 | Elrond | Yeah, yeah. |
| 11:27.23 | Elrond | How hard would it be to write see as a standalone program in *any* other language? |
| 11:27.34 | Elrond | s/see/"see"/ |
| 11:27.43 | slava | 'see' isn't an image dumper, its a function which takes a function as as parameter and shows its source |
| 11:27.48 | slava | but to answer your question, not very hard |
| 11:28.13 | Morgret | slava: how come that comments would be lost? The image contains the full source as I understand it, but fully tokenized. This must contain the comments too, surely. |
| 11:28.24 | slava | no it doesn't contain the full source. |
| 11:28.32 | Elrond | Well, that tool could be extended to recursively walk all functions, that are referenced from the main entry function. |
| 11:28.35 | Morgret | slava: so where is the source? |
| 11:28.40 | slava | the source is in text files |
| 11:29.14 | Elrond | Morgret - The images on the web site are pre-compiled. ;) |
| 11:29.16 | Morgret | So ... we *do* have source for the image? |
| 11:29.21 | Elrond | Yes. |
| 11:29.26 | slava | yes, but you need to run an image to produce a new image. |
| 11:29.29 | Elrond | But you can't compile them on a bare system. |
| 11:29.50 | Elrond | Unless you write a compiler in some other language. |
| 11:30.11 | Elrond | So you have two options: |
| 11:30.22 | Elrond | - Either write a pretty printer and compare with shipped sources. |
| 11:30.31 | Elrond | - Or write another compiler. |
| 11:31.51 | *** join/#openmoko chrustinho (n=christop@p57B000D8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 11:33.46 | Morgret | It needs addressing, slava. You see, if this ever became popular, and virus/malware/spyware/crapware/crime writers ever discovered it ... it would be absolutely end of story. No means of verifying what one has running locally. |
| 11:34.52 | Elrond | Morgret - Well, except for the boot-strapping issue, you can verify all sources. |
| 11:34.55 | slava | have any crapware writers discovered squeak and managed to inject malicious code into the base system? |
| 11:35.15 | Morgret | slava: you know that's a logical fallacy :-) |
| 11:35.21 | Elrond | Morgret - So slava has a little point in pointing us at gcc: How did you install the box you're sitting front of? ;o) |
| 11:36.17 | slava | Morgret: yeah, but its 6:30am and i got sucked into a long, drawn out discussion on irc. and my development is proceeding slowly because qemu isn't a speed demon. :) |
| 11:36.20 | slava | takes a long time to run tests |
| 11:36.58 | Elrond | ;) |
| 11:37.07 | Elrond | counter |
| 11:37.07 | aloril | a week, 2 days 18:22:52 (9.766 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 2 days (37.766 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 2 days (221.766 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 11:40.09 | slava | i need to reflash my gumstix. qemu is far too slow |
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| 13:35.10 | buz | can one use udp to send packets to GRPS phones? |
| 13:35.31 | *** join/#openmoko [g2] (n=g2@nslu2-linux/g2) |
| 13:35.39 | buz | or is that prevented by nat? |
| 13:37.46 | *** join/#openmoko eikonos (n=eikonos@S0106001310d36705.gv.shawcable.net) |
| 13:38.37 | Stephmw | buz: it's operator-specific |
| 13:38.58 | Stephmw | buz: Orange-France, for instance, allowed such stuff in 2005... whether that's still the case though... |
| 13:39.07 | buz | im wondering how much traffic jabber on grps would ause |
| 13:39.15 | buz | to be just online 16h a day |
| 13:39.29 | buz | messages would obviously be on top of that |
| 13:40.56 | buz | i guess it would depend on the timeout of a tcp connection first and foremost |
| 13:42.45 | *** join/#openmoko libervisco (n=libervis@tuxhacker/libervis) |
| 13:43.52 | buz | http://www.freesoft.org/CIE/RFC/1122/114.htm |
| 13:44.03 | buz | mhh does that mean a sane NAT server would hold open TCP for at least 2 hours? |
| 13:44.58 | buz | maybe i should go dig for my good old tcp ip illustrated |
| 13:45.35 | *** join/#openmoko dneary (n=dneary@251.9.39-62.rev.gaoland.net) |
| 13:54.34 | Elrond | buz - Straight TCP should have NO timeout. |
| 13:55.18 | Morgret | TCP sessions don't break *EVER* on principle, but a timeout can be specified in socket options. Unfortunately quite a while back networking libraries and/or TCP stacks started making non-inifinite timeout the default socket option for TCP, as a result of which TCP is nowadays flakey by design, for the simple pragmatic reason of self-cleanup of old sessions. |
| 13:55.20 | Elrond | Of course, many people enable keep-alive, or something alike in the application layer. |
| 13:55.36 | SpeedEvil | Isn't the max timeout 10 hours? |
| 13:55.45 | Morgret | Only in the socket options |
| 13:56.03 | SpeedEvil | Ah - I'm probably thinking of max RTT |
| 13:56.16 | Morgret | TCP used to be 100% reliable ... no breakage ever, regardless of how long you were at max retransmission interval. |
| 13:56.41 | SpeedEvil | I mean, it fails in terms of bandwidth use if the link you are on exceeds 10 hours RTT |
| 13:56.45 | Morgret | But that was back in the old days, before the socket options thing. |
| 13:57.13 | SpeedEvil | Because it can't back off far enough adn will always retransmit packets. |
| 13:57.24 | Morgret | Yeah, but only as a socket option. |
| 13:58.17 | SpeedEvil | I mean the RTT counter only goes up to 10 hours - it's impossible in tcp/ip to have a longer one. |
| 13:58.22 | Morgret | Cleanup of effectively dead streams used to be considered an application problem. In practice it no longer is, because long-dead streams will self-break. It's bad on principle, but good in practice. |
| 13:58.44 | SpeedEvil | This is only generally a problem for ip-via-mail, or space apps though. |
| 14:00.30 | Stephmw | buz: FWIW, current phone IM clients for multi-protocols tend to use a proxy host |
| 14:00.35 | Morgret | It's also a problem for covert communications, using very low bandwidth covert channels. |
| 14:00.42 | Stephmw | buz: specifically to reduce traffic |
| 14:01.26 | SpeedEvil | It'd be nice if there was some way to authenticate packets. A router for a host will only accept packets with a given signature, which is revokable, and many signatures per host are possible. (say 256) |
| 14:01.39 | Morgret | So I'm guessing the spooks don't use TCP anyone. It's actually a good concept to have a fully reliable, non-breaking stream capability, decoupled from data rate. |
| 14:01.47 | SpeedEvil | Yeah. |
| 14:02.05 | SpeedEvil | Or just tweak the rtt algorithm on stuff you're using to alter the RTT algorithm. |
| 14:02.28 | SpeedEvil | I did that once - to limit backoff to 1 second, when I was having trouble with packet loss. |
| 14:03.41 | Morgret | Well you can always set your comms app socket options to 0, and TCP will remain retrying forever. But you can't use default comms apps for it anymore, as they'll use default socket settings. |
| 14:04.51 | Morgret | After all, TCP only really exists at the two endpoints. For everyone else in between, they're just IP datagrams, nothing to break :P |
| 14:05.23 | Elrond | Unless the boxes in between are "smart" ;o) |
| 14:05.48 | Morgret | Yeah, they could send a reset back. |
| 14:06.42 | Morgret | It's one of the problems with stateful inspection in firewalls ... effectively they encode networking *policy*. It's not particularly good, just pragmatic. |
| 14:07.12 | *** join/#openmoko terrex (n=terrex@84-122-63-17.onocable.ono.com) |
| 14:07.15 | Elrond | Right. |
| 14:08.32 | nnpiggy | SpeedEvil, your revokable packet signature exists as part of IPSec. |
| 14:09.49 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 14:10.22 | nnpiggy | :-) |
| 14:10.26 | Elrond | nnpiggy - Do you have any experience with ipsec? Is it still a nighmare to setup? |
| 14:10.33 | Morgret | Interestingly, socket timeouts will raise there head again as soon as the Internet starts getting connected to the planets ;-) |
| 14:10.50 | Morgret | their* |
| 14:10.57 | Elrond | Morgret - *biggrin |
| 14:10.58 | Elrond | * |
| 14:11.08 | Elrond | ssh will be fun. ;o) |
| 14:11.29 | nnpiggy | http://www.ipnsig.org/ |
| 14:11.31 | SpeedEvil | Yeah - the moon isn't so bad. |
| 14:11.43 | nnpiggy | Yes, IPSec is still a pain to set up. |
| 14:12.45 | nnpiggy | And ipnsig is not a joke or purely speculative activity... |
| 14:12.47 | Morgret | Neo2050 ... GSM-9.5G using asteroid-belt GPS. |
| 14:13.19 | Elrond | Morgret - *lol* ;) |
| 14:13.27 | Elrond | Neo2010 ;o) |
| 14:13.51 | Morgret | Well you never know, this might be the start of something big ;-) |
| 14:14.44 | *** join/#openmoko quinton (n=quinton@84-45-151-51.no-dns-yet.enta.net) |
| 14:16.18 | sannes | counter |
| 14:16.18 | aloril | a week, 2 days 15:43:41 (9.655 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 2 days (37.655 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 2 days (221.655 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 14:16.51 | Elrond | less then 10 days and we'll have agpsd in our hands. ;) |
| 14:18.05 | leventhal | i'll have to wait a little longer.. i was a bad dev and blew all my money for the month already |
| 14:19.04 | leventhal | hm.. or i could just download the framework and see if the gps data can be simulated. |
| 14:19.26 | SpeedEvil | You can surely just strap a standard GPS in, or use a simulator. |
| 14:19.32 | SpeedEvil | BTDT. |
| 14:19.38 | Elrond | leventhal - For real hw, people have to wait 10 days + shipping anyways. ;) |
| 14:19.41 | leventhal | simulator it is |
| 14:19.59 | SpeedEvil | + shipping + dancing up and down time. |
| 14:20.17 | *** join/#openmoko Matt_PI_ (n=chatzill@209.198.66.141) |
| 14:20.18 | buz | and looking at the software |
| 14:20.24 | Elrond | objdump --disassemble-all. ;o) |
| 14:20.31 | buz | i just hope there will a non orange theme |
| 14:20.39 | SpeedEvil | you get the software when it's shipped. |
| 14:20.44 | SpeedEvil | So before you get it - prolly |
| 14:21.21 | Elrond | buz - *duck* Create the theme yourself. ;o) |
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| 14:29.02 | Morgret | The standard theme won't matter until September. It's only then that it needs to sell on the basis of looks. |
| 14:29.35 | Morgret | I bet there will be 100 themes before then ;-) |
| 14:29.48 | aloril2 | slava: you need to get factor included in Fedora, Debian, etc.: then its in same situation as gcc ;-) (no need for images, just use system suplied factor compiler) |
| 14:30.33 | *** join/#openmoko prpplague (n=dave@65.71.224.163) |
| 14:30.54 | Elrond | aloril2 - hehe ;) |
| 14:31.01 | Morgret | aloril2: yep, trust by association is also valid trust. However, that doesn't make the problem of hacks go away. If your image is compromised, you need some way of cleaning it without running it. |
| 14:31.06 | Elrond | Morgret - Only 100? ;) |
| 14:31.36 | Morgret | Elrond: hehe, OK, as many these as there are people ;-) |
| 14:31.46 | Morgret | s/these/themes/ |
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| 14:34.22 | Tantalum | Hi I was just on the openmoko website but it doesnt have alot of usefull info... what exactly is openmoko? |
| 14:35.11 | Morgret | It's the same thing as having a compromised root volume. The first thing you do is turn off the power switch, no waiting, no clean shutdown, just BANG, off. Then you bring up another box and mount the old root elsewhere, and start poking. |
| 14:35.57 | zipola | Tantalum: Did you check http://openmoko.com/press/index.html ? |
| 14:36.36 | *** join/#openmoko dneary (n=dneary@251.9.39-62.rev.gaoland.net) |
| 14:37.39 | Tantalum | cool I'v heard about that, I remember the pictures. |
| 14:38.48 | buz | if your / is compromised and you're not into investigating it, you simply nuke it booting froma livecd |
| 14:39.03 | Tantalum | I tried google but there doesnt seem to be much in the way of documentation other then the spec sheet ;-( |
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| 14:40.20 | zipola | Tantalum: Look at http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-January/000000.html |
| 14:41.44 | Tantalum | I need a login for the openmoko wiki?! |
| 14:42.06 | CM | counter |
| 14:42.07 | aloril | a week, 2 days 15:17:53 (9.637 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 2 days (37.637 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 2 days (221.637 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 14:42.14 | SpeedEvil | There is currently very little info out there. |
| 14:42.27 | SpeedEvil | Other than the spec sheet, and that derived from it. |
| 14:42.28 | CM | Tantalum: The wiki and more will open in about a week :) |
| 14:42.33 | SpeedEvil | The official wiki is not open |
| 14:42.36 | SpeedEvil | yet |
| 14:42.54 | buz | i wished release would be delayed until 19th |
| 14:43.00 | buz | thats when my last exam takes place |
| 14:43.03 | buz | grmbl |
| 14:43.05 | CM | Hehe |
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| 14:43.35 | Tantalum | ok... does openmoko work in the us? |
| 14:43.58 | buz | should |
| 14:44.03 | buz | with GSM provider anyway |
| 14:45.00 | Tantalum | damn... Getting GSM here is a pain |
| 14:45.09 | *** join/#openmoko Jo2 (n=Joe@217-170-144.541110.adsl.tele2.no) |
| 14:45.12 | bmidgley_ | tmobile, cingular |
| 14:45.21 | bmidgley_ | what's a pain is pay-as-you-go |
| 14:45.33 | bmidgley_ | no prepaid data afaict |
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| 14:46.09 | *** join/#openmoko silwol (n=silwol@193.170.134.179) |
| 14:46.41 | Tantalum | yeah but where I live me and every one else uses verizon..... I never use my out of network minuets ;-) |
| 14:46.51 | SpeedEvil | In the UK - it's not too bad - contract phones - many of - come with a meg of data a month, and 3 pounds ($6) / Mb |
| 14:47.19 | SpeedEvil | 3G is a whole nother ballpark of course. |
| 14:47.35 | bmidgley_ | yeah I am sticking w verizon but getting prepay for devel |
| 14:47.39 | SpeedEvil | But AIUI, all the providers require you to have a 3G capable phone. |
| 14:48.03 | leventhal | SE: Yeah, I'm jealous.. GPRS rates in Canada are a ripoff |
| 14:48.39 | aloril2 | Tantalum: OpenMoko is OE based Linux distribution for mobile phones that initially runs on Neo1973 phone |
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| 14:49.00 | SpeedEvil | For 3G - IIRC you cang et a gigabyte a month for 40 quid. |
| 14:49.12 | leventhal | Fido dropped the unlimited GPRS because $50 was too cheap |
| 14:49.14 | Sketch | though i'm theoretically not supposed to tether to another device with that ;) |
| 14:49.19 | leventhal | Now it's $50 for 50mb and 0.03/kb after that |
| 14:49.31 | leventhal | Rogers has their $100 for 100mb |
| 14:50.01 | XorA | ouch, 7.50 UKP for 2Gig here |
| 14:50.04 | bmidgley_ | in my area coverage is good enough that I could switch from cdma to gsm |
| 14:50.09 | aloril2 | OpenMoko will be released in 10 days, you can order Neo1979 in 40 days |
| 14:50.14 | bmidgley_ | but I am used to 3g :( |
| 14:50.19 | leventhal | I'm clinging to my hiptop solely for the data plan |
| 14:50.26 | leventhal | It's very closed and limited though |
| 14:50.28 | Sketch | i think tmobile is the cheapest for data in the US (dunno if they support 3G though) |
| 14:50.48 | *** join/#openmoko ans (n=anselm@pool-71-244-143-199.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net) |
| 14:51.27 | Tantalum | I dont think they do |
| 14:52.05 | leventhal | Oh wtf.. fido dropped all of their data plans except the 2mb for $5 plan |
| 14:53.00 | leventhal | Which is idential to the rogers plan |
| 14:53.16 | Tantalum | Thanks every one for the info..... I'll probably be back when the phone is released and if I get one |
| 14:53.57 | *** join/#openmoko MeTa (n=sajt@3e70c809.adsl.enternet.hu) |
| 14:54.48 | bmidgley_ | tmobile has edge at least |
| 14:56.04 | Clint | t-mobile and cingular both have edge |
| 14:56.09 | Clint | in many areas |
| 14:56.44 | buz | neo doesnt have edge |
| 14:57.16 | Clint | 2.5-not-edge |
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| 14:59.07 | Sketch | cingular also has 3G |
| 14:59.26 | Sketch | (in some areas, of course) |
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| 15:27.31 | aloril2 | SpeedEvil: why would you need external GPS? Just route chip communication both to binary agpsd and your own agpsd and compre outputs |
| 15:28.16 | Elrond | aloril2 - All of that gets down to reverse engeneering. ;) |
| 15:30.48 | aloril2 | Elrond: yup, but no need for external GPS for it |
| 15:32.37 | Morgret | Might not need to reverse engineer. We'll just have to wait and see whether Sean can open enough of it up. I think he *wants* to, from reading some of his visionary statements about openness. Perhaps he can reach agreement with Infineon/GL to release just the basics of the positional data formats. |
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| 15:38.48 | buz | somehow i doubt it |
| 15:38.58 | buz | from what i understand, most of the work is done in software with GL chips |
| 15:39.11 | buz | and i dont think they will want to give their crown jewels away |
| 15:40.16 | SpeedEvil | aloril: I was assuming that the context was for devs without physical devices. |
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| 15:41.28 | SpeedEvil | The crown jewels however isn't involved in the output of the hardware. |
| 15:41.44 | SpeedEvil | That's probably pretty simple and relatively irrelevant. |
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| 15:42.08 | Morgret | SpeedEvil: agree |
| 15:43.30 | SpeedEvil | It's the converting, filtering, ... |
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| 15:44.29 | Morgret | I bet that's true for the interfaces to nVidia's and ATI's graphics cards too, and that opening those interfaces would have no commercial impact whatsoever. They just want the control. In this GPS case it's even more-so. |
| 15:46.01 | SpeedEvil | I think the thinking is that in the graphics case, the worry is that someone will take the detailed hardware specs and clone. |
| 15:46.01 | SpeedEvil | Probably also there are horrible IP risks. |
| 15:49.50 | XorA | having worked in a gfx chip manufacturer the number 1 reason for no open specs is they expose bugs in the chips, your competitor then does "demos" that expose those bugs |
| 15:49.51 | hadara | anyone who has capability of actually cloning the hardware will probably have no problem doing so without the hardware interface specs |
| 15:50.10 | XorA | but work perfectly on their chips |
| 15:50.38 | XorA | PHB's who are involved in buying depts dont know technicall details, they can just tell perfectly rendered boobs from ones with flaws |
| 15:56.51 | aloril2 | SpeedEvil: agree about crown jewel, but if you know chip protocol then you can feed it to existing GPL implementation |
| 15:57.11 | SpeedEvil | Yeah - then tweak that. |
| 15:57.42 | SpeedEvil | Nope. |
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| 16:04.45 | Morgret | Well if the competition can find your bugs for you, that's a bonus :-) |
| 16:05.48 | hrw | hi |
| 16:06.00 | SpeedEvil | Not if they are hardware, and would cost you tens of millions to fix. |
| 16:06.18 | SpeedEvil | And they can be exposed by competitors in shipped product. |
| 16:06.35 | Morgret | Nah, it all goes through your driver ... easy to fix. |
| 16:06.55 | aloril2 | SpeedEvil: bundled agpsd can have those ITAR limitations regardless whether proprietary binary is used or one compiled from GPL sources. Neither ase changes availability of GPL sources ;-) |
| 16:07.06 | Morgret | And so it should be. Covering up bugs is a mark of incompetence, not engineering. |
| 16:07.30 | nbd | ITAR limitations? |
| 16:07.37 | SpeedEvil | Basically: |
| 16:07.51 | SpeedEvil | GPS that can report speeds over 1000 knots and 60000 feet are a munition. |
| 16:07.57 | SpeedEvil | As defined in the ITAR regulations. |
| 16:08.09 | Morgret | SpeedEvil: can the Hammerhead? |
| 16:08.12 | SpeedEvil | You need a special licences to import or export them. |
| 16:08.19 | nbd | ah |
| 16:08.24 | SpeedEvil | The hammerhead basically can - however, it's half of the story. |
| 16:08.34 | SpeedEvil | The hammerhead outputs uncooked data. |
| 16:08.43 | SpeedEvil | The gpsd cooks it and produces a position. |
| 16:09.12 | SpeedEvil | It's pretty clear that if you sell the device with an unlimited gpsd that it is in fact subject to the ITAR regs - which means basically it can't be sold. |
| 16:09.47 | Morgret | Well if the Hammerhead is a munition and is being distributed to hundreds of thousands of consumers worldwide, then Infineon/GL are idiots. |
| 16:09.48 | SpeedEvil | It's as I understand it not been tested in law if an easy to alter source gpsd that has the limits imposed is allowed. |
| 16:09.53 | SpeedEvil | No. |
| 16:10.19 | SpeedEvil | It's only a munition when it's combined into hardware + software that reports positions over the limits. |
| 16:10.45 | SpeedEvil | And it's the manufacturer of the units problems, not infinieons. |
| 16:11.03 | Morgret | Well in that case the Hammerhead isn't a munion when it's standalone. Simply logic. So, let's have the documentation. ;-) |
| 16:11.45 | SpeedEvil | No, it's not. However, it's possible a court could rule - pushed by apple - that an open source gpsd makes the neo a munition. |
| 16:11.45 | Morgret | s/munion/munition/ |
| 16:12.31 | Morgret | SpeedEvil: I think you aren't using enough layers of speculation. How about another 10? That would do it .... ;-) |
| 16:12.52 | SpeedEvil | The ITAR regs are pretty clear. They are still enforced. |
| 16:12.53 | Morgret | If ... if ... if ... if ... |
| 16:13.16 | SpeedEvil | It is totally clear that if you sell the neo with an unlimited GPS that it is a munition. Yes, this is insane. |
| 16:13.35 | Morgret | And by the ITAR, you just said the Hammerhead alone isn't a munition. So they don't apply. Everything else is speculation about the future. |
| 16:13.37 | nbd | SpeedEvil: well, the chipmaker will also have an interest in not having all of their sold gps chips become munition |
| 16:13.53 | SpeedEvil | The hammerhead is part of a hardware+software package that makes up the GPS. |
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| 16:14.17 | SpeedEvil | It is not a munition unless both parts of that package report positions/speeds outside the limits. |
| 16:14.35 | SpeedEvil | The hammerhead can - but when tied to software that imposes the limits, it's fine. |
| 16:15.01 | SpeedEvil | The hammerhead doesn't output a position, it outputs relative speeds of satellites in view. |
| 16:15.18 | SpeedEvil | The position is generated by the gpsd |
| 16:16.02 | Sketch | sounds like you would be fine if you distribute it with a gpsd that obeys teh limits? if someone replaces the software to get around the limits, that's their own problem? ;) |
| 16:16.13 | SpeedEvil | Probably. |
| 16:16.27 | Sketch | if it's already being distributed by other vendors with different software, that software could surely be replaced by someone who knows enough... |
| 16:16.57 | SpeedEvil | Yes - however essentially all GPSs with flashable firmware are in that boat too. |
| 16:17.16 | nbd | well, just because something is binary-only doesn't mean it's secret, so that problem exists already |
| 16:17.25 | nbd | it's already replacable |
| 16:17.30 | Morgret | SpeedEvil: I don't know why you're trying to put a damper on GPS in OpenMoko, but it's not helping. If you think there is an ITAR issue, please take it up with Sean, and let's see if he says "You are forbidden from using the Hammerhead directly." Without that, it's just negative speculation. |
| 16:17.34 | nbd | for anyone smart enough to reverse engineer the gpsd |
| 16:17.35 | SpeedEvil | I think it's pretty safe to say you won't get a court to rule that a closed binary+hardware violates ITAR |
| 16:18.34 | SpeedEvil | I am not. I just don't want any trivial way of taking the thing off the shelves, when it goes volume. |
| 16:19.29 | nbd | this looks like the same old free wifi drivers vs fcc regs discussion |
| 16:19.31 | Morgret | SpeedEvil: Yes you are. You are saying that we cannot freely program those things FIC presents us in the hardware, and you use some FUD about possible ITAR problems to stop us. It's very bad. |
| 16:20.39 | Sketch | SpeedEvil: yeah, but there are many "closed+binary system" devices which have later had linux installed on them |
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| 16:22.14 | SpeedEvil | I want neo to succeed - I want one - well - maybe of v2, I may not have cash for v1. I'm waiting on responses from some people who have worked in this area. Hopefully they may have more insight. |
| 16:22.21 | Sketch | so when someone figures out how to install linux on some random GPS (like the cheap ARM based one I got that runs WinCE, i bet would not be too difficult) that has been on the market a few years, does that make the manuf suddenly liable? |
| 16:22.51 | SpeedEvil | I don't know - it depends on what you can get a court to decide. |
| 16:23.21 | SpeedEvil | I would say almost certainly not, as it's closed, and the person doing it is not doing it with the makers approval. |
| 16:23.28 | Morgret | SpeedEvil: Good, that sounds progressive. FUD about possible ITAR problems in the future is in contrast not progressive, it's as negative as all FUD. |
| 16:24.16 | buz | that sounds about as much as fud as the playstation could be used in missiles stupidity |
| 16:24.37 | buz | people who build missiles can get proper gps for it, rest assured |
| 16:24.43 | SpeedEvil | Go and look at the ITAR regs - they do in fact apply. |
| 16:24.48 | SpeedEvil | Even if the GPS is civilian. |
| 16:25.00 | SpeedEvil | If it can produce positions outside the limits. |
| 16:25.23 | SpeedEvil | Anyway - I'll stop talking of this aspect till I get more info. |
| 16:25.33 | buz | then put that limits in an open source gpsd as well and it's legal |
| 16:26.21 | SpeedEvil | IMO, that'd be a matter for the courts, as it's essentially a documented 'delimit' switch. |
| 16:26.53 | SpeedEvil | Anyway - on another topic - has it been cleared up if the 'hole' in some of the pictures is a lanyard attach, or a button? |
| 16:27.02 | buz | its a hole |
| 16:27.23 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 16:27.32 | aloril2 | SpeedEvil: I fail to see difference between bundled binary A and binary B both obeying limits |
| 16:27.51 | SpeedEvil | Bundled binary B comes with a documented off-switch. |
| 16:27.56 | SpeedEvil | (the source) |
| 16:28.14 | SpeedEvil | I wish LCDs were not so damn fragile. |
| 16:28.39 | SpeedEvil | Worn round the neck, with no cover, I'll break it. :( |
| 16:32.31 | hadara | it's rather unlikely that this kind of logic will hold in court, most of us here can probably reverse engineer the communication protocol in the matter of days without any source whatsoever so the "off switch" in the binary blob case is only marginally harder to find |
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| 16:34.58 | aloril2 | SpeedEvil: *both* come with off switch: download from net binary C without limits |
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| 16:38.31 | buz | courts and logic arent exactly close friends though |
| 16:42.55 | ans | I hope I don't get chewed out for this question... I'm not as tech savy as many of you are, but I was wondering I develop in flash and would there be a way to get flashlite on openmoko? |
| 16:43.42 | *** join/#openmoko l3010o (n=leo@n219079066049.netvigator.com) |
| 16:44.18 | Morgret | I'm not worried about courts here, but about the project being FUD'd out of sight. FIC is a large company, they have lots of lawyers. Let them deal with possible ITAR issues please. We're given an open piece of hardware at the interfaces, and our job here is to improve it with open source work in all areas. |
| 16:46.45 | Morgret | ans: anything that you can get to work with OpenEmbedded should work on the Neo. |
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| 17:04.03 | Matt_PI_ | and why worry about flash when you can use Moble SVG |
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| 17:04.57 | Matt_PI_ | Mobile SVG |
| 17:05.16 | Matt_PI_ | SVG is a open standard |
| 17:06.57 | Matt_PI_ | http://mobilemonday-ny.com/ |
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| 17:09.54 | nelt | so is swf |
| 17:10.23 | nelt | but so far the open source implementations are lagging... |
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| 17:18.16 | Matt_PI_ | the SVG guys are moving big time into mobile |
| 17:19.20 | Matt_PI_ | and they are working on Joost ....and if you've seen Joost you know it wants to be a Mobile app |
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| 17:24.55 | hadara | hmm since when is swf open ? last time I checked it was something like "you can get the specs if you agree not to use them to write flash player." |
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| 17:35.54 | nelt | AFAIK that is not the case. I doubt there would be a GNU flash project if that were the case. |
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| 17:36.26 | nbd | the gnu project is based on reverse engineering, imho |
| 17:36.27 | nbd | not on open specs |
| 17:36.58 | notsmack | Can I use the File Format Specification to create a SWF interpreter or player? |
| 17:36.58 | notsmack | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:42.00 | Elrond | Nearly as closed as sdal. ;o) |
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| 18:02.43 | Morgret | Adobe recently announced that they were going to turn over the reigns of PDF to open standards committee, although people say that's because of pressure from MS's document formats. Well Adobe now own Macromedia, so perhaps flash will one day be properly open. But yeah, currently it's not. |
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| 18:05.11 | SpeedEvil | 12/window new |
| 18:05.14 | SpeedEvil | sigh |
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| 18:08.01 | SpeedEvil | Typos still appear. |
| 18:08.08 | SpeedEvil | Unless you go to point+click |
| 18:08.09 | Morgret | Talking of documents ... I wonder what the best ebook/document reader will be for us, given the size of the screen. |
| 18:08.29 | SpeedEvil | I've used xpdf - it's probably not best though. |
| 18:09.03 | SpeedEvil | plus enscript |
| 18:10.36 | SpeedEvil | Do we have an accurate number for the screen dimensions? |
| 18:10.36 | hrw | cu |
| 18:10.45 | Morgret | I wonder if that info is on the xoo template |
| 18:10.52 | SpeedEvil | I suppose it's reasonable to assume that the 2.8" is 4:3 |
| 18:10.59 | SpeedEvil | It looks about tht. |
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| 18:25.43 | Mortimus | counter |
| 18:25.43 | aloril | a week, 2 days 11:34:16 (9.482 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 2 days (37.482 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 2 days (221.482 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
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| 18:30.14 | koen|gprs | good morning all |
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| 18:34.16 | fluffs | right, finally sorted out the hw ecc |
| 18:34.25 | fluffs | http://www.fluff.org/ben/linux-26/2620/2620-rc6-s3c24xx-nand-hwecc.patch |
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| 19:32.19 | Morgret | Cripes, Dell and Intel are in one hell of a heap of costly trouble. (Slashdot story from Reuters) |
| 19:38.17 | SpeedEvil | Where do we sign up to get a quarter of a billion to put only intel CPUs into the neo? :) |
| 19:39.08 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: i think that kind of incentive went away when intel sold its arm dev to marvell |
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| 20:39.54 | koen | http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/pipermail/llvmdev/2007-January/007813.html |
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| 21:02.48 | Stephmw | koen: J2ME job posting :-) http://tinyurl.com/ypuwwo |
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| 21:18.49 | cying | koen: ah ha! saw my article didja? |
| 21:24.41 | CM | cying: Did a quick search to see if I could find the article you mentioned, and this is what I got: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Ying |
| 21:25.05 | cying | CM: hehe, that's not me :) |
| 21:25.23 | cying | CM: http://www.satine.org/archives/2007/02/01/connect-the-dots-iphone-graphics-os-x-llvm-arm-and-ruby/ |
| 21:25.23 | CM | cying: I kind of guessed that, but it was still funny.. :P |
| 21:25.38 | CM | Ah, thanks |
| 21:25.40 | cying | CM: yea... you would not believe how much crap i get for that |
| 21:26.08 | cying | CM: "OMG charles i heard you were dating Janice, is that true?" |
| 21:26.16 | CM | Hehe |
| 21:27.50 | *** join/#openmoko _rob (n=rob@ACB6A68B.ipt.aol.com) |
| 21:31.04 | *** join/#openmoko ninHer (n=ninHer@unaffiliated/ninher) |
| 21:34.45 | *** join/#openmoko thedaniel_ (n=daniel@38.98.1.19) |
| 21:38.20 | SpeedEvil | I once got invited on an expedition (paid) to the pole, to consult on polar bear mating habits. |
| 21:38.27 | Polar | 0.o |
| 21:39.13 | SpeedEvil | I even look sorta-similar. |
| 21:39.28 | SpeedEvil | I suspected they'd have worked out it wasn't me though. |
| 21:39.53 | cying | hehe |
| 21:46.41 | Morgret | Better get all the research done before they go extinct :-( |
| 21:48.49 | noidd | There is no-one else on the web with the same name as me |
| 21:48.55 | noidd | I'm every single web hit baby |
| 21:49.54 | noidd | cat is sitting on my shoulder like a pirate parrot |
| 21:50.02 | cying | yarrrr |
| 21:50.07 | SpeedEvil | Yaaaarr. |
| 21:50.45 | cying | parley! |
| 21:50.45 | cying | parley! |
| 21:50.45 | SpeedEvil | You need to train it to wave a little sabre. |
| 21:51.06 | Morgret | Hehe, nice image |
| 21:52.38 | noidd | her body is curled around the back of my neck |
| 21:52.39 | noidd | too |
| 21:52.51 | noidd | so, neck warmer |
| 21:52.57 | Morgret | Pr0n on OpenMoko! |
| 21:53.22 | noidd | you can be sure that's comming |
| 21:53.26 | prpplague | nothing like tamale's made with cat |
| 21:53.28 | Morgret | Hehe |
| 21:53.32 | noidd | I do after all live in the worlds fastest growing porn city |
| 21:53.48 | LittleIdiot | hmm, two mokos + bluetooth app that syncs them = stereo pron ;) |
| 21:53.49 | Sketch | what city is that? |
| 21:53.53 | CM | noidd: I seem to be the only one with my name on google too :) |
| 21:53.54 | SpeedEvil | Las Vegas? |
| 21:53.55 | cying | rochester? |
| 21:53.55 | noidd | Charlotte, NC |
| 21:54.02 | cying | oh right |
| 21:54.04 | noidd | the buckle of the bible belt |
| 21:54.18 | mjr | I already suggested a porn image (perhaps background), changing according to your location |
| 21:54.47 | cying | did they give you a free neo to implement that? |
| 21:54.54 | mjr | no, those bastards |
| 21:55.03 | SpeedEvil | on the neo. |
| 21:55.10 | mjr | SpeedEvil, indeed. |
| 21:55.17 | SpeedEvil | ping if someone matching your stated interests is in range. |
| 21:55.37 | noidd | did you get a free greenphone? |
| 21:55.58 | cying | not yet |
| 21:56.01 | LittleIdiot | first app, i'll write is a rss feed grabber to read the daily news in the subway |
| 21:56.03 | cying | i've been promised one |
| 21:56.17 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 21:56.19 | Stephmw | what framework is this? |
| 21:56.36 | cying | me? |
| 21:56.38 | noidd | a day after the p0 launch |
| 21:56.39 | Stephmw | yah |
| 21:56.44 | noidd | someone is going to sell it, |
| 21:56.58 | noidd | 50 people, there has to be at least one person who fancies their chances |
| 21:57.02 | cying | Stephmw: a non sucky next gen UI framework for mobile apps |
| 21:57.04 | LittleIdiot | i've just searched for cheap grps rates in germany. there is none :/ |
| 21:57.12 | Stephmw | cying: unnamed as yet? |
| 21:57.15 | cying | Stephmw: unnamed |
| 21:57.19 | LittleIdiot | all around 0.2 eur/mb |
| 21:57.27 | LittleIdiot | err, 0.1 |
| 21:57.28 | cying | Stephmw: prototype first, then name :) |
| 21:57.47 | cying | though if the openmoko folks come up with a VMware simulator image, that might be just as good |
| 21:57.56 | cying | with all the tools set up and everything |
| 21:58.32 | Stephmw | koen: did you check out that link? |
| 21:58.35 | Morgret | Greenphone may end up being just as open, depends. If it turns out that documented access to the GPS serial port is denied us, then I guess Neo is no more open than the Greenphone. We'll just have to see. |
| 21:58.36 | cying | toolchain setups, linkers, projects |
| 21:58.45 | cying | so i can just boot, load and start hacking |
| 21:59.01 | cying | koen: the setup is the big bugger... it's all about the usability to get the developers in |
| 21:59.02 | mjr | Morgret, "no more"? I beg to differ, even in that case. |
| 21:59.17 | mjr | (as for access to the serial port, it would really boggle me if there wasn't) |
| 21:59.19 | koen | Stephmw: heh, another nokia job offer |
| 21:59.31 | koen | cying: ehm, a toolchain is not a simulator |
| 22:00.00 | cying | koen: well when i run the built executable, i'd want it to come up on screen |
| 22:00.06 | koen | cying: it's saddening people keep giving the same answers as you did when I ask what they want to have simulated |
| 22:00.29 | cying | koen: oh, well then if you want simulator features: |
| 22:00.32 | Morgret | mjr: it boggles me too, since the whole point of Neo is openness. But we'll just have to wait a few days and see, unless Sean speaks up before then. |
| 22:01.07 | Stephmw | koen: hey, it's the glamorous world of API development :) |
| 22:01.10 | cying | koen: emulated screen, touch input, and either build cross binaries or emulate the processor speed |
| 22:01.33 | cying | koen: so i can do "hello world" w/o much setup |
| 22:01.40 | koen | cying: the only actually useful thing for a simulator would be a gsm module |
| 22:02.13 | koen | telling yourself you need a simulator for 'hello world' is just sad |
| 22:02.34 | cying | koen: why? is screen access standardized across all linux distributions? |
| 22:02.41 | cying | koen: what do i do to blit to the screen? |
| 22:02.46 | cying | koen: and what do i do to get mouse input? |
| 22:02.54 | mjr | cying, Neo will run X |
| 22:03.22 | koen | and looking at the currently available emulators for arm makes wanting one foolish as well |
| 22:03.26 | cying | mjr: do i learn X to get at the screen buffer? |
| 22:03.30 | mjr | and X is pretty much standardized across most linux distributions; some other embedded ones don't use it, but anyway |
| 22:03.55 | mjr | cying, not really, you should learn SDL instead for things like that |
| 22:04.07 | SpeedEvil | SDL is a layer over X. |
| 22:04.08 | cying | mjr: and does SDL work with openmoko hardware? |
| 22:04.13 | cying | ahhh |
| 22:04.15 | SpeedEvil | that is a bit simpler to use. |
| 22:04.27 | koen | sdl is a layer over pretty much anything |
| 22:04.27 | cying | so if i built a SDL codebase, would that just port over to openmoko? |
| 22:04.32 | SpeedEvil | It brings up a SDL window, and you write to that. |
| 22:04.35 | CM | The only thing that bothers me is that qemu arm doesn't work well with gcc-4.x.x |
| 22:04.37 | mjr | well, a layer over X and a whole lot of other stuff; yeah, what koen said |
| 22:04.50 | CM | qemu in general that is.. |
| 22:05.20 | mjr | You probably can kill Neo's X and just use sdl on the framebuffer. Not that I'm suggesting it. |
| 22:05.24 | cying | mjr: so really, this would be the recommended way to write a openmoko app? |
| 22:05.29 | koen | cying: what I'm trying to say is this: "In contrary to other shitty environments, most openmoko stuff doesn't need to be emulated for you to test" |
| 22:05.43 | mjr | cying, it would be if the app in question wants to access a framebufferish thingy |
| 22:05.53 | *** join/#openmoko stim_ (n=stim@203-206-0-185.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 22:05.58 | mjr | if you want widgets and stuff, you use the openmoko libs, based on gtk |
| 22:06.38 | cying | koen: what i'm trying to say is that "packaging matters". from my POV, having extensive background in RTOS phone development, but 5 year old UNIX programming background, the less i need to learn to start writing openmoko targetted apps the better |
| 22:06.58 | koen | cying: I agree on that |
| 22:06.58 | cying | mjr: hmmm |
| 22:07.51 | cying | koen: from my POV, a VMware image that has linux, a simulator, and the openmoko package all set up in directories and such, with one script you run to get something built, is very very nice |
| 22:08.39 | cying | mjr: that's good info to know... maybe all i need to get started is just an SDL library |
| 22:09.33 | koen | cying: do you *need* a simulator, or do you _think_ you need a simulator? |
| 22:10.39 | koen | since openmoko is a huge break for conventional platforms, conventional paradigms will most likely be invalid |
| 22:11.01 | cying | koen: i need something that does this: when i launch ./neosim, i get a window that shows me the openmoko UI and my mouse will do touchscreen-ish things on that UI, built from the same code base |
| 22:11.10 | CM | I guess the "OpenMoko Simulator Howto" page in the official wiki will be a favourite.. |
| 22:12.13 | cying | CM: indeed |
| 22:12.23 | cying | koen: but i am curious, why i don't need this |
| 22:12.40 | cying | koen: it's just that from my POV, this is what i would want to get started |
| 22:12.46 | koen | you can get the same using Stefan's Xoo skin |
| 22:12.56 | koen | no need for a simulator |
| 22:12.58 | koen | since |
| 22:13.11 | koen | a) nothing available can emulate the cpu properly |
| 22:13.20 | SpeedEvil | I want to know at the moment - does it simply look like a 'normal' X window with normal mouse? |
| 22:13.23 | koen | b) you don't have a 300dpi screen |
| 22:13.31 | koen | c) a mouse isn't a touchscreen |
| 22:13.59 | cying | what does his xoo skin do? |
| 22:14.00 | SpeedEvil | b and c are annoying. |
| 22:14.15 | SpeedEvil | a) can sort of be worked round by limiting cpu timeslice. |
| 22:14.17 | CM | cying: It just makes it look a bit like the open moko |
| 22:14.23 | SpeedEvil | You can at least get pessimistic. |
| 22:14.26 | cying | CM: "it" ? |
| 22:14.26 | koen | SpeedEvil: nope |
| 22:14.26 | CM | And sets the resolution for Xoo correctly |
| 22:14.34 | CM | It's a png and an xml |
| 22:14.38 | cying | oh XOO |
| 22:14.47 | koen | SpeedEvil: qemu and armulator don't emulate unaligned access faults for example |
| 22:15.07 | CM | cying: It's on the o-hand page |
| 22:15.08 | cying | oh see? |
| 22:15.10 | koen | SpeedEvil: so a+b+c make 'simulation' nothing more but a toy |
| 22:15.10 | noidd | xoo is basically a pretty Xnest |
| 22:15.11 | SpeedEvil | I mean _roughly_ - as in 1/bazth of a Pfoo/barGhz |
| 22:15.11 | cying | this is what i want |
| 22:15.14 | noidd | afaik |
| 22:15.31 | SpeedEvil | Horribly inaccurate, should be within a factor of 5 though. |
| 22:15.35 | cying | koen: i think that can be set |
| 22:15.42 | cying | koen: on armulator at least |
| 22:15.51 | SpeedEvil | For much stuff. |
| 22:16.00 | koen | SpeedEvil: so people that say they *need* a simulator are fooling themselves |
| 22:16.18 | koen | SpeedEvil: or are in for a big surprise when they finally break out the real hardware |
| 22:16.33 | koen | "hey, this screen is smaller than on my CRT" |
| 22:16.47 | CM | Hehe |
| 22:17.03 | koen | "performance profiles are completely different, why's that?" |
| 22:17.03 | cying | koen: if you're doing serious app development, having a desktop development environment helps a lot |
| 22:17.07 | SpeedEvil | Appropriate prescription glasses, and sitting back can ssort of help. |
| 22:17.09 | CM | But it's true, I guess the scrollbars and such will look huge on a normal monitor |
| 22:17.10 | cying | koen: even if the profiles are different |
| 22:17.23 | koen | cying: I didn't say it didn't help |
| 22:18.27 | koen | depending on a simulator is like not taking driving lessons put playing GTA:SA instead |
| 22:18.32 | cying | koen: so create a VMware linux distrib bundle with Xoo and openmoko's base system packaged and ready to go |
| 22:18.46 | koen | cying: right, that's already available :) |
| 22:18.57 | cying | koen: well shit, point me at it! |
| 22:19.53 | noidd | did tha person ever pay up the cash for it koen? |
| 22:19.54 | koen | cying: MACHINE=qemuarm in OE generates an environment like that |
| 22:20.12 | koen | noidd: I have no idea what [g2] and hrw agreed on |
| 22:20.25 | Morgret | koen: can never please everyone. Half will say this phone is smaller than the xoo image, and half will say this phone is too big. :-) |
| 22:20.49 | [g2] | hey koen |
| 22:20.53 | *** join/#openmoko zipola (n=zipola@zip.kortex.jyu.fi) |
| 22:21.08 | cying | good grief |
| 22:21.15 | Morgret | I couldn't care less what its size is. It's open. |
| 22:21.19 | cying | there's about a 20 step process on the openembedded site |
| 22:22.03 | noidd | g2: did you cough up the cash to hrw in the end? :-) |
| 22:22.06 | cying | and where is openmoko's core GUI then? |
| 22:22.12 | cying | is that just OE? |
| 22:22.54 | [g2] | noidd I had talked about a bounty and then I was going to write something up |
| 22:22.54 | cying | oh |
| 22:22.58 | cying | there it is on the home page |
| 22:22.59 | cying | okay |
| 22:23.09 | cying | well a VMware image would help, but i suppose this will do for now |
| 22:23.25 | [g2] | noidd I never wrote anything up, but hrw went ahead and developed something |
| 22:23.53 | [g2] | noidd I haven't tested what hrw created |
| 22:24.49 | noidd | roger that |
| 22:24.54 | noidd | get testing :-) |
| 22:24.57 | [g2] | noidd have you tried it ? |
| 22:25.12 | *** join/#openmoko newmedian (n=newmedia@TOROON63-1168100004.sdsl.bell.ca) |
| 22:25.42 | noidd | No, didn't know it was there until a few lines ago |
| 22:26.05 | [g2] | noidd I've been distracted by two issues: 1) ixp4xx stuff, 2) moving my base build environ from edgy to xfce |
| 22:26.50 | [g2] | and 3) a bunch of video/media streaming things |
| 22:27.52 | *** join/#openmoko quinton (n=quinton@84-45-151-51.no-dns-yet.enta.net) |
| 22:29.44 | noidd | I'm guessing we'll get another mtn feed |
| 22:30.05 | *** join/#openmoko thedaniel_ (n=daniel@38.98.1.19) |
| 22:31.19 | *** join/#openmoko bluelightning (n=blueligh@222-155-213-100.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) |
| 22:32.08 | [g2] | noidd dunno, but it was a 4hour+ monotone conversion for that last one I pulled |
| 22:43.42 | noidd | wow |
| 22:48.09 | newmedian | hmm, what's this terminal laying here in the corner for? someone must have lost it. |
| 22:49.09 | *** join/#openmoko ans (n=anselm@pool-71-244-143-199.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net) |
| 22:56.46 | *** join/#openmoko bkuhn (n=bkuhn@atheist.ebb.org) |
| 23:28.27 | CM | Nice joke, actually: http://degredo.net/ |
| 23:43.02 | *** join/#openmoko cprf (n=rzinkov@oss-staff.rutgers.edu) |
| 23:45.04 | *** join/#openmoko pr3d4t0r (n=cu4cu4@pdpc/supporter/active/pr3d4t0r) |
| 23:45.06 | pr3d4t0r | Greetings. |
| 23:46.25 | cprf | howdy |
| 23:46.39 | cprf | is there anyway to play with some emulator of the openmoko |
| 23:46.54 | cprf | to give the feel for the kind of technology it is |
| 23:47.43 | mjr | counter |
| 23:48.05 | mjr | hmh, the bot is down |
| 23:48.17 | mjr | anyway, cprf, in about a week the platform source will be released |
| 23:48.35 | mjr | that'd be all the "emulator" you'd likely need, except for perhaps some details |
| 23:49.32 | cprf | sweet |
| 23:53.40 | pr3d4t0r | cprf: I read the wiki regarding hardware, etc. Is there a formal process to get a hold of the hardware? |
| 23:54.10 | pr3d4t0r | cprf: I've led development for commercial mobile applications. I'm curious about the actual hardware, even if it is in prototype form. |
| 23:54.29 | pr3d4t0r | s/cprf/mjr/ |
| 23:54.33 | pr3d4t0r | mjr: ^^^ |
| 23:56.09 | pr3d4t0r | mjr: The wiki only says "select developers" - I'm working with a group of people who have interested in the OpenMoko platform and we'd like to evaluate it not only the software/OS but also the hardware. We're based in San Francisco. |
| 23:56.10 | mjr | I'm not with FIC; anyway, phase 0 where free phones are distributed is decided, phase 1 (wolrdwide sales targeting developers) starts 11th March |
| 23:56.17 | newmedian | (Phones given to select developers on Feb 11, available for sale to developers on Mar 11, and general public in Sept, from my memory of the counter) |
| 23:56.22 | SpeedEvil | anyone can buy one for $350 |
| 23:56.24 | pr3d4t0r | mjr: Yes. |
| 23:56.42 | SpeedEvil | The price 6 months on drom then has not been disclosed AIUI, and will presumably depend on the market then. |
| 23:56.43 | pr3d4t0r | mjr: It's not clear if there is a qualification process for 11.March. |
| 23:56.54 | mjr | and when I say decided I mean they've decided already who gets the phase 0 phones |
| 23:56.56 | newmedian | probably a valid credit card. ;) |
| 23:57.18 | mjr | pr3d4t0r, going by what they've said on the mailing list, no |
| 23:57.19 | pr3d4t0r | mjr: Phase 1 would be fine with us if we can put acquiring a couple of devices in our dev plan. |
| 23:57.58 | mjr | anyone should be able to buy on March, just that they're expected to know they're getting a development device |
| 23:58.18 | pr3d4t0r | mjr: Cool, thanks. |
| 23:58.30 | slava | pr3d4t0r! |
| 23:58.34 | pr3d4t0r | slava! |
| 23:58.46 | pr3d4t0r | slava: What are you doing here? |
| 23:58.53 | slava | pr3d4t0r: i'm interested in the device |
| 23:58.56 | pr3d4t0r | slava: This is the last channel I'd expect to find you at. |
| 23:59.01 | pr3d4t0r | slava: So is my posse. |
| 23:59.56 | slava | pr3d4t0r: i'm porting my stuff to ARM/Linux |