| 00:09.33 | mickeyl | XorA|gone: ping |
| 00:11.54 | *** join/#openmoko loft306 (n=^_^@tuxhacker/pdpc.supporter.sustaining.loft306) |
| 00:22.39 | *** join/#openmoko rwhitby (n=rwhitby@nslu2-linux/rwhitby) |
| 00:28.24 | Morgret | Hiya mickeyl :-) |
| 00:28.42 | Morgret | Just finished watching V for Vendetta -- what an excellent film :-) |
| 00:29.57 | Morgret | Sad that with each passing year, the UK police state gets stronger stronger and eventually Parliament will have to go ... I hope it goes up in such style :-) |
| 00:30.30 | Morgret | Police surveilance through cellphones will happen long before that, so maybe OpenMoko comes just in time ;-) |
| 00:31.41 | mickeyl | heh |
| 00:31.49 | mickeyl | sounds like i need to watch that film |
| 00:32.20 | Ycros | I've have the original comic, which I read before having watched the film |
| 00:32.27 | Ycros | it's also quite good |
| 00:32.34 | Ycros | (some small differences in plot here and there) |
| 00:35.43 | Morgret | Oh, I've heard that if one likes the comic then the film won't appeal, unless you can treat it as a different work. |
| 00:40.18 | Ycros | both appeal to me, so I don't know what those people were talking about |
| 00:41.58 | Morgret | Oh, mickeyl, we were trying to read between the lines on your blog entry about the GPS. You make it plain that the agpsd daemon is closed, and you explain why, but as the Neo's accessible hardware was always said to be open, presumably that means we'll have access to the raw GPS device. The question is, is FIC going to document the interface, or do we have to reverse engineer it without help? |
| 00:42.20 | pvanhoof | Wondering, will there be developer devices be sent to software developers? |
| 00:42.33 | mickeyl | i don't think we will be allowed to publish it :/ |
| 00:42.34 | pvanhoof | I'm quite interested to port some of my stuff to it .. |
| 00:42.41 | mickeyl | i'm afraid this is GL IP |
| 00:42.58 | Morgret | pvanhoof: the phase 0 developers have already been selected. Phase 1 devs will have to buy it. |
| 00:43.19 | pvanhoof | okay I see |
| 00:43.27 | Morgret | counter |
| 00:43.27 | aloril | a week, 2 days 23:16:32 (9.97 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 2 days (37.97 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 2 days (221.97 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 00:43.53 | pvanhoof | well, it's a typical GPE on it right? |
| 00:44.05 | mickeyl | there is that super secret binary module gathering the actual GPS data out of the datastream containing algorithms which they base their business on... even FIC won't get the source to that lib |
| 00:44.46 | SpeedEvil | It's probably the modelling which is the sekrit bit. |
| 00:44.50 | thedaniel | mickeyl: but is there a way to get NMEA strings from the agpsd? |
| 00:44.55 | SpeedEvil | The basic GPS isn't really hard. |
| 00:44.56 | SpeedEvil | yes |
| 00:44.59 | SpeedEvil | you get NEMA |
| 00:45.01 | SpeedEvil | NMEA |
| 00:45.17 | SpeedEvil | You can't get psuedoranges or range-rate information AIUI. |
| 00:45.21 | Morgret | mickeyl: they can keep their secret algorithms ... we only want access to the data. |
| 00:45.25 | thedaniel | hmm |
| 00:45.34 | SpeedEvil | You'd almost never want that. |
| 00:45.42 | thedaniel | well, many FOSS programs that use GPS will function with NMEA just fine |
| 00:46.07 | thedaniel | s/many/most/ |
| 00:46.10 | Morgret | You can't copyright a data stream, nor even the format of one ... it's not a copyrightable work. So we just need the stream spec. |
| 00:46.26 | SpeedEvil | This is speculation: |
| 00:46.27 | *** join/#openmoko cworth (n=cworth@c-67-160-161-141.hsd1.or.comcast.net) |
| 00:46.34 | SpeedEvil | The GPS datastream is not at all secret. |
| 00:46.45 | SpeedEvil | The output to NEMA isn't secret either. |
| 00:47.14 | SpeedEvil | The interesting bit, which may be wanted to keep secret is how you go from bits off the antenna, to NEMA |
| 00:47.51 | SpeedEvil | For example, there are all sorts of things that might be done, feedforward of the estimated position into a correlator, to attempt to keep a marginal satellite locked |
| 00:48.33 | Morgret | Aye, GPS isn't secret. But Infineon/Global Locate will undoubtedly be over-extend their secrecy. |
| 00:48.48 | Morgret | be trying to* |
| 00:49.08 | SpeedEvil | Feedback of the dopplers of other satellites through a model, to give the decoder jerk information to again aid in locking. |
| 00:49.28 | SpeedEvil | Smart use of interrupted ephemirides data. |
| 00:49.45 | Morgret | There's plenty of university project code for GPS decoding and analysis. |
| 00:49.58 | SpeedEvil | And also, it's quite possible that the velocity limiting code may be in software. |
| 00:50.27 | SpeedEvil | The export regulations for a GPS which can read out at >1000Kt/30000ft get nasty |
| 00:50.37 | SpeedEvil | Yes, there is university project code. |
| 00:51.15 | Morgret | If we can decode the data stream presented to us, we'll probably eventually have a better open-source daemon than the proprietary ones. I bet the Neo will be used in university projects. |
| 00:51.15 | SpeedEvil | If your buisness is GPS, and you've taken man-decades of work in getting 10cm better than the other guys position, you want to keep that advantage. |
| 00:51.56 | SpeedEvil | It may not be legal to import/export/own the neo if it can do that though. |
| 00:52.30 | SpeedEvil | As the regulations aimed at stopping consumer GPSs being used on missiles are very much still on the books. |
| 00:53.19 | Morgret | The same chip is available in millions of gadgets ... any hardware hacker can break into the i2c lines or whatever the interface is. So banning it would be pretty silly. |
| 00:53.53 | SpeedEvil | Silly or not. If it can do that, it's illegal in many places (including the US) |
| 00:54.03 | Morgret | They could of course lock up all radio amateurs and other hardware hobbiests ;-) |
| 00:54.40 | SpeedEvil | It's actually decidedly non-trivial to make a GPS, though it's a hell of a lot more trivial than it was - now there are chips that do half the work for you. |
| 00:54.44 | mickeyl | g'night |
| 00:54.50 | SpeedEvil | Neglecting the chips that do all of the work for you |
| 00:54.55 | Morgret | NN M ;-) |
| 00:55.32 | SpeedEvil | But those that do all the work won't output fixes when you go too fast/high |
| 00:57.55 | Morgret | Here's one way of developing a GPS decoder: feed the sat fixes readings into a neural net, and run it in training mode with a commercial GPS as the authority. Come back in a few weeks, and you have a working decoder ... although you won't know how it does it. ;-))) |
| 00:58.51 | Robot101 | Morgret: with the slight proviso that if you go anywhere you didn't go whilst training, it will probably produce incorrect results. |
| 00:59.02 | Robot101 | :P |
| 00:59.14 | Morgret | Robot101: that unfortunately could well be so, yes :P |
| 00:59.35 | Robot101 | even commercial GPSes had things like if you go above 85 degrees latitude, they get your position wrong by a few hundred miles :P |
| 00:59.43 | Morgret | Oops |
| 00:59.56 | Robot101 | people in north Norway weren't too happy, but the manufacturers never tested up around the Arctic Circle |
| 00:59.57 | Morgret | Maybe they did it with NNs then :P |
| 00:59.59 | Robot101 | :) |
| 01:01.05 | SpeedEvil | GPS decoding isn't fundamentally hard - you get output of differential velocities between satellites, and their orbits. From that you generate a position. Annoying and tedious rather than hard. |
| 01:01.53 | Morgret | Does the hardware take care of doppler etc? |
| 01:02.58 | SpeedEvil | No. |
| 01:03.07 | SpeedEvil | You do not get ranges to the satellites. |
| 01:03.15 | SpeedEvil | You get relative doppler shifts. |
| 01:03.42 | SpeedEvil | You can only take care of the doppler by computing a position/vector at which the doppler is 0 |
| 01:04.08 | SpeedEvil | Of course, in some chipsets, there is a micro in there, and you get 'cooked' info out. |
| 01:04.45 | Morgret | Hmmm, I wonder how much we can infer from the glossies on the Hammerhead. |
| 01:04.58 | SpeedEvil | hang on, I haven't looked. |
| 01:05.50 | *** join/#openmoko thedaniel_ (n=daniel@38.98.1.19) |
| 01:05.55 | Morgret | I have a URL on another box, one sec |
| 01:08.24 | SpeedEvil | Ok - there is no position determining going on in the hammerhead |
| 01:08.40 | SpeedEvil | It just spits out the raw doppler information it gets from the satellites. |
| 01:08.48 | SpeedEvil | And that's then decoded in the host CPU. |
| 01:09.03 | SpeedEvil | Assuming there is no CPU in the module, that'll be by the neo. |
| 01:10.16 | Morgret | http://www.globallocate.com/SEMICONDUCTORS/SEMI_HAMMER_Frameset.htm |
| 01:10.35 | Morgret | speedEvil: Where do you look to find that? |
| 01:10.36 | SpeedEvil | So the 'consumer GPS' limits have to be applied in the neo. Which is at least one reason it's a binary module. |
| 01:10.56 | SpeedEvil | http://www.globallocate.com/SEMICONDUCTORS/HAMMERHEAD_PB.pdf |
| 01:11.27 | SpeedEvil | The block diagram shows just 'correlator engine and postprocessor' |
| 01:11.30 | Morgret | Ah yeah, that's the glossie on the page I linked |
| 01:12.01 | SpeedEvil | The correlator is the bit that 'lines up' the signal from the satellite with what the satellite should be transmitting. |
| 01:12.14 | SpeedEvil | So getting range-rate information per satellite |
| 01:12.39 | SpeedEvil | Postprocessor will be stuff like decoding the data that the GPS satellite sends minimally. |
| 01:12.50 | SpeedEvil | Each satellite sends the current time, and its orbit. |
| 01:13.05 | SpeedEvil | Orbital parameters - exactly where it is in the sky. |
| 01:13.18 | *** join/#openmoko dw_swe (n=kvirc@h-215-34.A162.cust.bahnhof.se) |
| 01:14.03 | SpeedEvil | If you already know the orbits - which is what all the 'load it over the internet' stuff is, then you don't have to wait for the orbits to download. Also, you can lock onto the satellite faster as you know approximately what doppler they should all have. |
| 01:17.51 | Morgret | Well in respect of what that means for the data coming out to us over the interface, does that look promising to you, or bad? |
| 01:18.30 | SpeedEvil | Umm... |
| 01:18.55 | SpeedEvil | The chip looks too simple for any decent encryption or anything to ba happening. |
| 01:19.09 | SpeedEvil | So I suppose it can only be at best obfuscation. |
| 01:19.43 | SpeedEvil | And the satellite orbits are all known, and which are over the horizon, so that should give big clues if you can observe both sides of the datastream |
| 01:20.00 | Morgret | Oh, I bet there is none ... after all, it's been designed for normal consumer devices, which are entirely closed. They prolly didn't figure on the OM. |
| 01:20.16 | SpeedEvil | More that it's not their problem. |
| 01:20.45 | SpeedEvil | It's illegal in many places to sell GPS hardware which can work over the limits. It's not illegal to sell GPS chips that can be assembled into stuff that can. |
| 01:21.23 | SpeedEvil | I'll have to look into the legalities - I last looked at this around a decade ago seriously. |
| 01:23.23 | Morgret | The legal restriction are entirely bollocks anyway. Any moderately sane terrorist would buy an unrestricted military device on the black market, or if they're on a budget, they'd plant a $50 foxhunt transmitter on the target and just home in on it. |
| 01:23.51 | SpeedEvil | Being entirely bollocks does not mean that they will not come and lock you up. |
| 01:24.00 | Morgret | Indeed. :P |
| 01:24.16 | SpeedEvil | And more importantly, take away your neo. |
| 01:24.24 | Morgret | Arghhhhh!!!!!!! |
| 01:28.06 | Morgret | Presumably the military has a way of telling the sats to shift their coords by a few miles, to be invoked in the event of a launch detection. I wonder if they've ever tested it momentarily. |
| 01:28.55 | Morgret | Not shift their coords, shift their *reported* coords, hehe |
| 01:29.33 | DukeOfURL | I was biking in Moab on 9/11--my Garmin lost the signal entirely... |
| 01:29.41 | SpeedEvil | Google Selective Availability |
| 01:29.49 | Morgret | Wow! |
| 01:30.00 | SpeedEvil | GPS was degraded significantly before 93? |
| 01:30.05 | cbpage | yeah |
| 01:30.12 | SpeedEvil | With large errors - tens of meters. |
| 01:30.35 | SpeedEvil | They can basically cause any satellite to lie in many ways. |
| 01:31.00 | Morgret | What year was 9/11? |
| 01:31.19 | DukeOfURL | Real comforting when the pilot is on an instrument approach using GPS |
| 01:31.29 | cjb | Morgret: 01. |
| 01:31.30 | DukeOfURL | 2001 |
| 01:31.35 | Morgret | ta |
| 01:31.56 | *** join/#openmoko TimRiker (n=timr@216.49.181.128) |
| 01:42.54 | DukeOfURL | How often does a Bluetooth emitter announce its presence? |
| 01:49.25 | *** join/#openmoko eikonos (n=eikonos@S0106001310d36705.gv.shawcable.net) |
| 01:49.57 | *** join/#openmoko ciastek (i=subclub@nat-dom.aster.pl) |
| 01:55.52 | Morgret | Oh, that depends on the profile in use. There's a General Access Profile with a short 10ms of Inquiry Scan every 2 seconds, while remaining discoverable for 30s. But dunno beyond that. |
| 01:56.50 | Morgret | In general you try to keep the duty cycle that low, in order to reduce power consumption. |
| 01:57.08 | Morgret | That's why inquiry takes such a long time. |
| 01:57.47 | Morgret | I guess you could transmit with a higher duty cycle if you had the power, and discover would be quicker. Just guessing though. |
| 01:58.05 | mjr | if a bt device is hidden, does it actually transmit anything unless an outside source that knows the address initiates? |
| 01:58.28 | SpeedEvil | You really want to turn off the reciever too, if you can. |
| 01:58.46 | SpeedEvil | Which is the other reason it takes a while. |
| 01:58.49 | Morgret | mjr: guessing again, but I believe it transmits nothing at all when not discoverable, unless it's paired with a device already. |
| 01:59.03 | mjr | yeah |
| 01:59.10 | SpeedEvil | As you have to transmit much more often to be sure that you hit the device in the window when it's listening |
| 01:59.40 | mjr | ahh, so they don't listen all the time either |
| 01:59.46 | mjr | so that's what it was about... |
| 02:05.50 | DukeOfURL | Does bt advertise a unique ID when it announces? |
| 02:07.08 | DukeOfURL | i.e., if in a room full of bt devices, will Neo be able to determine which is which? |
| 02:10.10 | *** join/#openmoko wiix (n=vetetix@98.27-218-195.adsl.internet.lu) |
| 02:11.55 | cbpage | BT devices have MAC addresses |
| 02:16.37 | DukeOfURL | So the Neo could detect the presence of a specific bt device... |
| 02:16.56 | DukeOfURL | without establishing a connection... |
| 02:19.28 | *** join/#openmoko jessta (n=jessta@203-214-97-210.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 02:25.25 | *** join/#openmoko comicinker (n=simeon@R151f.r.pppool.de) |
| 02:25.34 | *** join/#openmoko darmou (n=darmou@203.222.101.150) |
| 02:28.44 | Morgret | DukeOfURL: yep, inquiry and connection phases are entirely separate in Bluetooth. |
| 02:28.57 | DukeOfURL | cool |
| 02:29.25 | Morgret | Inquiry and Inquiry Scan is like a client and server pair, for discovery only. |
| 02:30.00 | Morgret | For connection you have Paging and Page Scannning, again a client + server type pair. |
| 02:32.13 | DukeOfURL | Is there any way for a phone to recognize the GSM RF emmissions of another phone? |
| 02:32.27 | DukeOfURL | to determine presence? |
| 02:32.29 | Morgret | I quite like Bluetooth. Didn't go into it too deeply, but had some fun interfacing to my GPS and my laser scanner. Bluez had some quirks when I did it a year or so ago, but no doubt it's better now. |
| 02:32.53 | Morgret | I don't know anything about GSM, sorry. |
| 02:35.13 | DukeOfURL | Need the ability to determine the presence of another phone within ~100m |
| 02:37.06 | Morgret | Well cellphone are pretty powerful transmitters even on lowest power, so that's not hard. Radio amateurs commonly pick up 100mW across the other side of the globe, although not in this band, hehe. |
| 02:37.54 | DukeOfURL | Will we have access to GSM or is it all on-chip? |
| 02:38.30 | Morgret | We'll have access only to the AT-type serial interface. That will be only a tiny subset of GSM chip functionality --- the safe subset, no doubt. |
| 02:39.34 | Morgret | It'll probably be exactly the same subset you have available on a PDA when you connect it to your mobile as a modem. |
| 02:40.03 | *** join/#openmoko fatty (n=fatt@74-140-162-93.dhcp.insightbb.com) |
| 02:41.08 | DukeOfURL | When I place my Motorola next to my VoIP phone, I can hear the cell transmissions on the VoIP set. When idle, the cell announces every hour or so. |
| 02:41.29 | DukeOfURL | So there's not that much RF anyway. |
| 02:42.50 | *** join/#openmoko quinton (n=quinton@84-45-151-51.no-dns-yet.enta.net) |
| 02:49.51 | *** join/#openmoko gabaug (n=gburt@207-229-164-50.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.cable.rcn.com) |
| 02:50.13 | gabaug | wow, popular channel |
| 02:50.55 | gabaug | can somebody clarify for me, are the GSM and GPS the two and only two proprietary stacks on the Neo1973? |
| 02:51.32 | SpeedEvil | I wonder about the openness of the SD stack |
| 02:51.39 | SpeedEvil | But have no info |
| 02:52.13 | gabaug | SpeedEvil: there are Linux drivers for SD no? if so, I'd assume they'd just use them.. |
| 02:52.17 | SpeedEvil | And the GSM isn't really a stack, it's a limited interface to external hardware. We get all of the access anything would. |
| 02:53.00 | gabaug | SpeedEvil: meaning any app on the device can have permissions to initiate calls, etc? |
| 02:53.07 | SpeedEvil | yes. |
| 02:53.56 | gabaug | SpeedEvil: that's awesome, more open than I was even thinking.. |
| 02:53.58 | SpeedEvil | The modem basically looks (AIUI) like a modem talked to via AT commands, with a mixer to route the sound around into it. |
| 02:54.12 | SpeedEvil | You can't do 'interesting' GSM hacking. |
| 02:54.29 | SpeedEvil | The GPS basically gives position/... info, as it is at the moment. |
| 02:54.46 | gabaug | SpeedEvil: do you work at FIC? |
| 02:55.01 | SpeedEvil | No. Lurked here a while, read what's out there. |
| 02:55.14 | gabaug | SpeedEvil: cool, well thanks for helping clear some things up for me |
| 02:55.18 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 02:55.26 | SpeedEvil | It is a nice phone potentially. |
| 02:55.42 | SpeedEvil | More info when the first devices hit the devs |
| 02:55.45 | SpeedEvil | counter |
| 02:55.45 | aloril | a week, 2 days 21:04:14 (9.88 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 2 days (37.88 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 2 days (221.88 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 02:56.02 | gabaug | nice :) |
| 02:58.14 | gabaug | it's hard to believe how busy the lists are and how many people are in this channel :) |
| 02:58.22 | gabaug | speaks to the potential of this product/idea |
| 03:00.34 | *** join/#openmoko gambler (n=orion@203-206-86-98.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 03:01.30 | fatty | i thought it was supposed to be released sooner than later |
| 03:02.22 | gabaug | fatty: what do you mean? |
| 03:02.53 | gabaug | 9.88 days not specific enough for you? :) |
| 03:03.28 | fatty | from what i had seen before today i thought it was going to be available january/february but this says 7 months |
| 03:04.00 | gabaug | "this" is referencing Sean's official timeline |
| 03:04.49 | gabaug | http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-January/000000.html |
| 03:11.29 | *** join/#openmoko Mortimus (n=mortimus@pool-71-250-177-228.nwrknj.east.verizon.net) |
| 03:11.35 | Mortimus | counter |
| 03:11.36 | aloril | a week, 2 days 20:48:24 (9.87 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 2 days (37.87 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 2 days (221.87 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 03:22.14 | *** join/#openmoko MeTa (n=sajt@3e70c809.adsl.enternet.hu) |
| 03:27.20 | jacobfan | fatty: 7 months is for Mass market, not for direct sale phones to developers |
| 03:27.20 | jacobfan | "this" said: |
| 03:27.21 | jacobfan | <PROTECTED> |
| 03:27.42 | DukeOfURL | does Cingular have a "friends and family" deal where you can call another Cingular cell phone without charge? |
| 03:27.56 | Mortimus | yes |
| 03:28.05 | Mortimus | its called mobile to mobile |
| 03:28.13 | Mortimus | its in their plan specs |
| 03:29.24 | DukeOfURL | And would there be a way for a phone to pass data over the GSM connection? One phone calls another and passes its coordinates? |
| 03:29.46 | DukeOfURL | Or would we need a modem? |
| 03:30.25 | Mortimus | DuckeOfURL: i have no idea, i would imagine it could |
| 03:30.42 | *** join/#openmoko xerom (n=jack@81.193.129.22) |
| 03:30.48 | *** join/#openmoko stim (n=stim@203-206-0-185.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 03:36.25 | *** join/#openmoko emulsion (n=emulsion@cpe-071-065-217-026.nc.res.rr.com) |
| 03:40.35 | DukeOfURL | jacobfan: have the developers been chosen? |
| 03:40.41 | *** join/#openmoko Fletch (n=fantasma@doener.lieferservice.cc) |
| 03:41.11 | ciastek | DukeOfURL: yes. |
| 03:41.34 | DukeOfURL | :=( |
| 03:42.09 | gabaug | anybody know how many were? |
| 03:44.11 | jacobfan | DukeOfURL: I do not know. |
| 03:44.50 | jacobfan | DukeOfURL: I think the 2007-03-11 launch is for everybody, not for selected developers. |
| 03:45.46 | cjb | yes. 50 developers get phones on 02-11. |
| 03:47.07 | DukeOfURL | Is the case tamper proof? |
| 03:47.53 | Mortimus | DukeOfURL : how so tamper proof |
| 03:48.33 | DukeOfURL | I'll give the phone to a client, but I don't want him opening it up. |
| 03:48.49 | DukeOfURL | Also, no CLI access |
| 03:50.23 | Mortimus | i think i read that you can interchange the battery |
| 03:52.17 | DukeOfURL | Superglue ;=) |
| 03:54.55 | cjb | DukeOfURL: haha. if you're looking for a locked down environment, you got the wrong phone. there's a terminal option on the main menu. |
| 03:55.15 | DukeOfURL | hmmmm |
| 03:55.43 | DukeOfURL | But he still needs a username and password, right? |
| 04:15.13 | emulsion | I think if you have the phone you can create your own user/pass |
| 04:15.42 | cjb | or just boot to single-user or something; yeah, it's the worst possible phone to attempt to lock down. |
| 04:16.22 | Mortimus | why would you lock down a phone? |
| 04:16.28 | emulsion | seriously |
| 04:16.37 | Mortimus | i can see it for children |
| 04:16.55 | emulsion | or corporate profit |
| 04:17.32 | Mortimus | for clients, I would be a Leary as a client getting a phone just being a client |
| 04:18.03 | emulsion | I just can't freakin wait, I really hope this will take off |
| 04:18.19 | emulsion | I'm worried about providers, but I'm a newb |
| 04:18.43 | Mortimus | for me it will being technologically inclined |
| 04:18.57 | Mortimus | don't like something change it |
| 04:19.23 | emulsion | I'm not sure I follow |
| 04:19.45 | Mortimus | its the ultimate power, besides i really need to put my idea for a texti'ng interface to use |
| 04:20.08 | emulsion | ahh, yes |
| 04:21.03 | emulsion | I'm late on the dev scene for the software, I'm just waiting to get my hands on the hardware before I really dive in. |
| 04:21.16 | emulsion | but a decent texting ui is key |
| 04:22.35 | Mortimus | yup, conversation view for text'ing would be sweet |
| 04:23.07 | emulsion | yes it would |
| 04:28.38 | *** join/#openmoko raetin (n=Thomas@136.218.121.70.cfl.res.rr.com) |
| 04:33.19 | *** part/#openmoko raetin (n=Thomas@136.218.121.70.cfl.res.rr.com) |
| 04:35.20 | *** join/#openmoko darmou (n=darmou@203-206-183-196.perm.iinet.net.au) |
| 04:44.10 | *** join/#openmoko zipola (n=zipola@130.234.179.187) |
| 05:11.32 | *** join/#openmoko dottedmag (n=mag@dottedmag.net) |
| 05:22.11 | *** join/#openmoko dougt (n=chatzill@c-67-188-65-30.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 05:22.21 | *** part/#openmoko dougt (n=chatzill@c-67-188-65-30.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 05:31.12 | *** join/#openmoko Marex (n=Marex@85.132.236.161) |
| 05:36.04 | *** join/#openmoko jessta_ (n=jessta@203-214-97-210.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 05:38.00 | *** join/#openmoko leventhal (n=null@rtfm.google-it.info) |
| 05:44.11 | *** join/#openmoko thedaniel (n=daniel@netblock-68-183-179-95.dslextreme.com) |
| 06:17.42 | *** join/#openmoko dilinger (n=dilinger@c-65-96-191-108.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 06:25.44 | *** join/#openmoko friedel (n=fwolff@dsl-242-233-175.telkomadsl.co.za) |
| 06:33.25 | *** join/#openmoko koen|gprs (n=koen@212.41.157.237) |
| 06:52.31 | *** join/#openmoko quinton (n=quinton@84-45-151-51.no-dns-yet.enta.net) |
| 06:58.04 | *** join/#openmoko rd_ (n=redragon@segfault.net) |
| 07:06.10 | *** join/#openmoko wiml (n=wiml@underhill.hhhh.org) |
| 07:28.12 | *** join/#openmoko Longfield (n=valentin@128.178.145.53) |
| 07:29.09 | *** part/#openmoko wiml (n=wiml@underhill.hhhh.org) |
| 07:34.20 | *** join/#openmoko friede1 (n=fwolff@dsl-242-233-175.telkomadsl.co.za) |
| 07:39.50 | *** join/#openmoko buz (n=buz@80-218-148-33.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 07:45.45 | *** join/#openmoko tr2x (n=alvar@80-218-185-55.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 07:49.35 | *** join/#openmoko xerom (n=jack@81.193.130.127) |
| 07:55.59 | *** join/#openmoko borg_ (n=olaf@80.149.17.21) |
| 08:01.28 | *** join/#openmoko martinh (n=martinh@80.187.151.67) |
| 08:08.02 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=rob_w@p549B997E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 08:08.09 | *** join/#openmoko cying (n=cying@adsl-75-18-222-151.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) |
| 08:08.36 | cying | any openmoko team people around? |
| 08:19.03 | *** join/#openmoko incinerator (n=sabine@82-41-24-164.cable.ubr04.edin.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 08:28.20 | *** join/#openmoko bryan (n=blarsen@CPE001217be860c-CM00111ae01934.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 08:28.44 | *** join/#openmoko bpl (n=blarsen@CPE001217be860c-CM00111ae01934.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 08:33.24 | *** join/#openmoko saljam (n=sio@86.60.111.127) |
| 08:40.49 | *** join/#openmoko dneary (n=dneary@251.9.39-62.rev.gaoland.net) |
| 08:56.02 | *** join/#openmoko Marex (n=Marex@85.132.236.161) |
| 09:19.16 | nnpiggy | Good morning, XorA |
| 09:21.01 | XorA | hey |
| 09:21.12 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=rob_w@p549B997E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 09:23.30 | *** join/#openmoko vics (n=vics@217.21.35.33) |
| 09:39.20 | *** join/#openmoko nbd (n=nbd@ds10.mine.nu) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 09:39.20 | *** join/#openmoko ryd (n=ryd@nons.de) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 09:39.20 | *** join/#openmoko Paavo (i=jplauril@a88-113-2-185.elisa-laajakaista.fi) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 09:39.20 | *** join/#openmoko plaes (n=plaes@ns.store20.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 09:39.20 | *** join/#openmoko ynezz (i=inezz@195.113.97.158) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 09:39.20 | *** join/#openmoko djsuszi (i=f17aba2f@beer.in.lublin.pl) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 09:39.21 | *** join/#openmoko cjb (n=cjb@18.85.46.20) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 09:39.22 | *** join/#openmoko mudyc (n=mudyc@ip.fi) |
| 09:39.22 | *** join/#openmoko Cockroach- (n=saaskoli@gw.solution.yomi.com) |
| 09:39.22 | *** join/#openmoko Longfield (n=valentin@lsa1pc7.epfl.ch) |
| 09:39.23 | *** join/#openmoko vigilant^ (n=abcd@193.167.232.254) |
| 09:39.23 | *** join/#openmoko andreychek (n=eric@ion.openthoughthosting.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 09:39.24 | *** join/#openmoko Stephmw (n=steph@212.69.51.139) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 09:39.24 | *** join/#openmoko cdbot2 (n=cdbot2@81.169.178.128) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 09:39.24 | *** join/#openmoko greentux (n=lemke@195.227.105.180) |
| 09:39.24 | *** join/#openmoko Shoragan (n=shoragan@datenfreihafen.org) |
| 09:39.27 | *** join/#openmoko chihchun (n=nncctsai@tnlug.linux.org.tw) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 09:39.48 | *** join/#openmoko yacc (n=andreas@h1634.serverkompetenz.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 09:39.50 | *** join/#openmoko amarsh04 (n=amarsh04@138.217.208.105) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 09:40.51 | *** join/#openmoko sabor (n=mf@fehu.rola.ch) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 09:42.36 | *** join/#openmoko high-rez (i=gus@38.100.225.50) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 09:43.05 | *** join/#openmoko PhilKC (i=greece@freenode/staff/about.linux.philkc) |
| 09:43.47 | *** join/#openmoko kaatis (i=jkataja@nat/movial/x-aebb5c78647e4c45) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 09:43.54 | *** join/#openmoko PierreTramo (n=gcarrier@88.191.20.33) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 09:43.56 | *** join/#openmoko Naked (i=naked@62.142.249.112) |
| 09:43.56 | *** join/#openmoko daxxar (i=daxxar@213.145.191.129) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 09:44.21 | *** join/#openmoko andrerav (i=andrerav@gaupe.stud.ntnu.no) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 09:45.40 | *** join/#openmoko parag0n (n=parag0n@popeshoe.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 10:08.23 | buz | Removable flash media, such as SD and CF cards and USB flash drives, have a controller (often built into the card) to perform wear-levelling and error correction, so use of JFFS2 or YAFFS does not add any benefit |
| 10:08.33 | buz | so can i use ext3 on sd card without any issues? |
| 10:11.04 | XorA | buz: yes |
| 10:11.07 | *** join/#openmoko jeddy3 (n=mattiast@gw.sbg.se) |
| 10:11.13 | buz | mhh good |
| 10:11.27 | buz | with 8G flash going for 60E these days i just might stick system and home on flash in my laptop |
| 10:11.39 | XorA | buz: yup |
| 10:11.49 | buz | probably compact flash |
| 10:11.54 | buz | thats easiest to handle in pcmcia |
| 10:12.00 | mjr | I'd still use ext2 rather, to reduce the wear even if it's leveled |
| 10:13.09 | buz | mhh 8G compact flash is hideously expensive |
| 10:13.20 | buz | and i dont even know for sure if i can boot from it |
| 10:14.28 | Kaloz | aloril: probably.. the most powerful omap is based on that as well |
| 10:15.00 | *** join/#openmoko ValiSystM (n=ValiSyst@lns-bzn-50f-81-56-207-165.adsl.proxad.net) |
| 10:15.13 | buz | were is the specsheet for imx33 |
| 10:15.13 | aloril | hmm. that sounds nice for v2 |
| 10:15.28 | vlo | aloril: yes this new ARM processor looks very exciting |
| 10:15.30 | Kaloz | aloril: i guess it's _way_ more expensive :) |
| 10:15.32 | aloril | buz: I think its 'secret' project currently ;-) |
| 10:15.58 | Kaloz | aloril: arm9 is armv4, cortex is armv7 (latest stuff, highest price) |
| 10:16.07 | vlo | aloril: I'm currently working with i.MX31, it's already an amazing embeddded microprocessor |
| 10:16.08 | buz | well yes |
| 10:16.16 | buz | but until 2008 it should get down a lot |
| 10:16.25 | buz | NEON? signal processing extensions to accelerate media codecs such as H.264 and MP3 |
| 10:16.25 | Kaloz | vlo: that's arm11 (eg armv6), right? |
| 10:16.27 | buz | sweet |
| 10:16.35 | vlo | Kaloz: exactly |
| 10:16.51 | vlo | arm1136JF-S core to be precise |
| 10:16.51 | Kaloz | vlo: yup, those seem to be nice |
| 10:17.09 | Kaloz | so same as the new omap stuff in the n800 |
| 10:17.29 | aloril | Kaloz: yeah, v2 with wifi, fast CPU, etc.. might be quite a lot more expensive than v1 |
| 10:17.37 | buz | i wonder if there are any 65nm arm by the time they need to design v2 |
| 10:18.17 | vlo | we considered omap too, but TI did not consider our application as interesting ... Freescale was more receptive, so we chose i.MX31 |
| 10:18.34 | buz | with cpu power like that, one should get vga out |
| 10:19.50 | *** join/#openmoko TRIsoft (n=mac@p57A2D155.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 10:19.56 | dottedmag | counter |
| 10:19.56 | aloril | a week, 2 days 13:40:03 (9.57 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 2 days (37.57 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 2 days (221.57 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 10:21.18 | vlo | but for a "mass-product" like a mobile phone (NEO), I may think Cortex-core based CPUs may be a little too young |
| 10:21.29 | *** join/#openmoko mikesh (n=mikesh@x133.net.upc.cz) |
| 10:21.38 | *** join/#openmoko tm_ (n=tm@home.e-life.fr) |
| 10:21.46 | buz | vlo mind you v2 is off at least 1 year |
| 10:22.15 | vlo | We've been developping for i.MX31 for a little bit more than one year, and at the beginning (we were under NDA) the dev process was very hard because of missing information from Freescale |
| 10:22.21 | buz | stupid me, cortex IS 65nm |
| 10:22.36 | vlo | and ARM11 was announced a lot earlier |
| 10:23.01 | aloril | vlo: v2 should be *announced* at 2007-09-11 ;-) (and maybe some really select developers with NDA get one like with v1 last year) |
| 10:23.02 | buz | i think eten wants to release a imx31 phone in h1 07 |
| 10:24.36 | buz | i just hope there will be some variations for v2 |
| 10:24.42 | buz | ONE phone per year isnt exactly a lot |
| 10:24.59 | buz | like say one with qwerty |
| 10:25.02 | buz | and one withuot |
| 10:25.09 | aloril | buz: yeah, that might be case |
| 10:25.49 | buz | also if there is a cam, make it vga @30fps capable |
| 10:26.51 | aloril | ETA change would add 1.25 days to counter |
| 10:26.51 | l3010o | actually the version is for the phone or OS or both? |
| 10:27.19 | aloril | but maybe more likely estimate than UTC 00:00:00 |
| 10:28.00 | vlo | so i.MX31 may be a very good processor candidate for v2 ... but for a Cortex-based chip, I'm less optimistic: ARM announces their core ok, but then the manufacturers still have to integrate in into their design |
| 10:28.24 | aloril | vlo: umm.. v2 ETA is more likely something like 2008-09-11 ;-) |
| 10:28.37 | aloril | vlo: feature announcement at 2007-09-11 |
| 10:28.48 | buz | how much does a imx31 cost? |
| 10:28.58 | buz | as opposed to s3c2410? |
| 10:29.11 | vlo | aloril: well, anyway we will see, I'm no future seeing guy ;) |
| 10:30.01 | vlo | buz: i.MX31 is about 30$ if I remember right |
| 10:30.27 | buz | mhh thats not that bad |
| 10:30.48 | Kaloz | vlo: well, i guess it will be quite mature in 2008 |
| 10:30.58 | vlo | no, it's even 20$ for 1000 pieces |
| 10:31.39 | vlo | that would be greate to have an i.MX31 in v2 |
| 10:32.04 | buz | imx31, wifi,cam, CSR bluetooth/GPS combo |
| 10:32.18 | l3010o | maybe wimax :p |
| 10:32.33 | buz | is wimax being rolled out ANYWHERE at all? |
| 10:32.48 | vlo | but let's play with v1 during a few months, it will already be quite fun |
| 10:32.48 | l3010o | i dont thk so but maybe for the next yr? |
| 10:33.19 | buz | i just figured i can justify buying a v1 on the basis that i havent bought a phone in 3 years |
| 10:33.25 | buz | and v2 as my graduation gift hehehe |
| 10:33.44 | l3010o | anyone knows will i be able to order the developers' phone in May? |
| 10:33.55 | buz | l3010o: sure |
| 10:34.00 | buz | march even |
| 10:34.37 | l3010o | yes i know but no preorder is needed? |
| 10:34.55 | l3010o | coz i will only have enough money in may, hehe |
| 10:35.00 | l3010o | or even in june :( |
| 10:35.05 | vlo | buz: I haven't bought a phone for nearly 3 years too, I would love to get a v1, but I want to get some real feedback first ! |
| 10:35.32 | buz | yeah |
| 10:35.37 | buz | i dont want a phone that crashes every day |
| 10:35.41 | buz | see windows mobile |
| 10:35.54 | l3010o | windows mobile sucks! |
| 10:36.01 | buz | you dont say |
| 10:37.19 | buz | if windows mobile didnt suck so bad i owuld have got a tytn months ago |
| 10:38.53 | XorA | buz: the tytn is probably very close to the neo, buy one, do a linux port :-) |
| 10:39.03 | l3010o | TyTN looks cool, i love its outlook |
| 10:40.13 | buz | tytn has only qvga |
| 10:40.21 | buz | and no specs available |
| 10:40.36 | buz | besides im no kernel hacker |
| 10:44.20 | *** join/#openmoko pH5 (n=ph5@e178232090.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 10:44.29 | buz | a nokia communicator like neo would be neat, that would truly be a sub sub notebook then |
| 10:47.13 | hrw | someone here use(d) google desktop search? |
| 10:47.59 | aloril | currently: 2007-02-11 00:00:00 UTC: |
| 10:48.01 | aloril | a week, 2 days 13:11:59 (9.55 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-10); a month, a week, 2 days (37.55 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-10); 7 months, a week, 2 days (221.55 days) for mass market (2007-09-10): see topic for more info |
| 10:48.35 | aloril | changed to: 2007-02-12 00:00:00 CST - Plank time: |
| 10:48.37 | aloril | a week, 3 days 19:11:23 (10.80 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.80 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.80 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 10:48.56 | hrw | aloril: stop that - I'm getting more impatient when I see that... |
| 10:49.01 | aloril | hehe |
| 10:49.20 | hrw | but atleast I have to wait month less then others ;D |
| 10:49.53 | *** join/#openmoko zween (n=zween@vpn-051.vpn.net.ed.ac.uk) |
| 10:50.27 | aloril | well... in 1.5 weeks source code and then 0.5 weeks more, maybe more info from selected developers about hardware .. might tide over month until its generally available |
| 10:50.34 | stefan_schmidt | hrw: Perhaps *your* package get lost. Just kidding. :) |
| 10:50.45 | TRIsoft | hrw: Don't forget the two weeks in the Polish customs :D |
| 10:51.02 | hrw | TRIsoft: last time it was 1-2 days |
| 10:51.09 | XorA | valentines phones :-) |
| 10:51.22 | TRIsoft | XorA: Yep, FIC loves us :D |
| 10:52.19 | *** join/#openmoko wabz (n=wabz@c211-30-4-5.artrmn1.nsw.optusnet.com.au) |
| 10:52.31 | XorA | hmmm, wonder how fast fuse will go on Neo |
| 10:52.40 | XorA | Manic Miner is tempting |
| 10:52.40 | aloril | actually, didn't use plank time, used 1s/infinity ;-) |
| 10:52.49 | hrw | http://www.pocketfactory.com/2007/01/28/reinventing-the-palm-os-a-how-to-guide/ - interesting can be |
| 10:52.58 | wabz | I see that the gps is actually agps - does this mean it won't work without the a part? |
| 10:53.02 | mjr | XorA, thinking googlefs over gprs? :] |
| 10:53.10 | mjr | wabz, it doesn't mean that |
| 10:53.10 | wabz | as in, can it just work from the satellites without assistance? |
| 10:53.11 | hrw | wabz: A is extension to GPS |
| 10:53.15 | mjr | it can. |
| 10:53.16 | XorA | mjr: wrong fuse |
| 10:53.39 | wabz | oh okay cool |
| 10:54.10 | mjr | the "A" bit simply means that you can get the ephemeris data required for a fix from other sources besides the satellites, thus making the _initial_ position fix possibly faster than without A |
| 10:54.46 | mjr | but the satellites transmit that periodically too, so you don't need assistance |
| 10:54.54 | wabz | cool - I thought it might mean that you need (pay) for the assistance part |
| 10:55.46 | mjr | seems like you don't, besides the gprs bill (if you have A turned on) |
| 10:56.08 | mjr | the chip provider apparently provides the service on the proceeds of the chip selling |
| 10:56.13 | mjr | but of course, things like that can change |
| 10:56.23 | *** join/#openmoko martinh (n=martinh@80.187.151.67) |
| 10:56.31 | mjr | but even if they do, as said, we'll still have positioning |
| 10:57.03 | aloril | FIC pays some extra so they can use global locate servers to get A part |
| 10:57.10 | mjr | ok |
| 10:57.17 | mjr | wasn't clear on that |
| 10:57.53 | mjr | also, if you're paranoid, you might want to turn the A off anyway to avoid telling Global Locate where you are ;) |
| 10:57.55 | aloril | but you can use any server, not only global locate ones |
| 10:58.34 | aloril | its supposedly standard protocol SUPL |
| 10:58.35 | mjr | I wasn't clear on that either (that what kind of protocol the agps daemon uses; supposed it may've been tied to GL) |
| 10:58.42 | mjr | righto |
| 10:59.51 | mjr | makes the daemon that tiny bit easier to replace ;P |
| 11:01.01 | aloril | mjr: see http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/002600.html |
| 11:01.25 | aloril | well.. that FIC pays part is implied |
| 11:01.51 | CM | aloril: Thanks for keeping track of the community list. I'm too lazy to read all of them.. ;) |
| 11:03.43 | *** join/#openmoko lrg (n=liam@lumison.wolfsonmicro.com) |
| 11:07.08 | Psi_ | hehe reading all the messages on the lists is a full time job |
| 11:07.16 | mjr | but have to get over that :] |
| 11:17.50 | aloril | a week, 3 days 18:42:10 (10.78 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.78 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.78 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 11:18.41 | aloril | it seems quite many thing "*any* developer" means "not available unless you are developer" |
| 11:18.50 | aloril | s/thing/think/ |
| 11:28.09 | *** join/#openmoko rwhitby (n=rwhitby@nslu2-linux/rwhitby) |
| 11:32.38 | xkr47 | why not s/developer//g ;) |
| 11:33.00 | xkr47 | oh well |
| 11:36.05 | *** join/#openmoko etf|work (n=etf|work@82-71-36-214.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) |
| 11:36.37 | mjr | it's there so that people are aware that at that point it's targeted for developers, and not necessarily end-user-ready |
| 11:37.04 | aloril | xkr47: hehe, well I still want to keep it implied that its mainly meant for developer while keeping clear that anybody can still get one |
| 11:37.24 | xkr47 | yeah.. keep tuning :) |
| 11:38.02 | *** join/#openmoko parag0n (n=parag0n@popeshoe.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 11:38.23 | aloril | xkr47: for plain phone usage: probably not |
| 11:48.09 | *** join/#openmoko friedel (n=fwolff@dsl-242-233-175.telkomadsl.co.za) |
| 11:52.19 | *** join/#openmoko xerom (n=jack@bl4-135-105.dsl.telepac.pt) |
| 11:57.57 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (i=foobar@dslb-084-057-179-065.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 11:58.04 | *** part/#openmoko friedel (n=fwolff@dsl-242-233-175.telkomadsl.co.za) |
| 12:03.55 | *** join/#openmoko zween (n=zween@vpn-058.vpn.net.ed.ac.uk) |
| 12:24.11 | aloril | about AT commands: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/002708.html |
| 12:24.20 | aloril | (for controlling GSM part) |
| 12:25.16 | aloril | hmm... "There are some vendor-specific, proprietary TI AT commands which will remain undocumented." |
| 12:25.55 | aloril | + earlier mail by Sean: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/002653.html |
| 12:26.22 | aloril | "Sure. We're using a Ti Calypso chipset. Unfortunately this stuff is all under _super_ NDA :-( |
| 12:26.22 | aloril | AKA: If I post a datasheet I would get the CEO of FIC fired within 24 hours ;-)" |
| 12:26.40 | aloril | wild guess: those undocumented AT commands allow reflashing |
| 12:27.41 | aloril | or maybe something else that is actually illegal (except for testing) |
| 12:32.11 | XorA | aloril: changing IMEI is illegal in uk |
| 12:34.19 | aloril | XorA: OK, so no surprise its under "super NDA" ;-) |
| 12:35.04 | XorA | aloril: one function is probably read ROM, GSM algorithm isnt allowed to be read |
| 12:35.27 | ynezz | its NSA stuff |
| 12:36.45 | aloril | XorA: no? isn't GSM algorithm published one? |
| 12:37.22 | ynezz | it's know and published i think |
| 12:38.05 | ynezz | i've read about it at some docs for gsm card clonning by CCC |
| 12:38.10 | XorA | its known and published, but GSM organisation still thinks its a trade secret |
| 12:38.21 | XorA | same as DeCSS |
| 12:38.48 | *** join/#openmoko cyphase (n=cyphase@c-71-202-49-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 12:39.24 | *** join/#openmoko meus (n=bjartka@kremt.pvv.ntnu.no) |
| 12:39.42 | aloril | hehe, wasn't there something about it being deliberately weakened so that French 'NSA' can snoop? |
| 12:40.11 | XorA | bah, the "NSA" just turn off cell encryption |
| 12:41.41 | ynezz | it might be possible to use phone microphone for listening although you're not calling anybody |
| 12:41.56 | ynezz | some AT command via gsm network :p |
| 12:42.12 | XorA | well on Neo, just ssh in |
| 12:42.18 | ynezz | `:) |
| 12:42.47 | *** join/#openmoko terrex (n=terrex@84-122-63-17.onocable.ono.com) |
| 12:44.07 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@24.crcr10.xdsl.nauticom.net) |
| 12:46.01 | aloril | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSM#GSM_security (and then links to A5/1, A5/2): interesting |
| 12:46.05 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@24.crcr10.xdsl.nauticom.net) |
| 12:46.54 | *** join/#openmoko terrex (n=terrex@84-122-63-17.onocable.ono.com) |
| 12:47.25 | *** join/#openmoko slowcoder (n=jaja@195.1.151.177) |
| 12:47.46 | l3010o | join #linux |
| 12:47.54 | aloril | specifically: Security researcher Ross Anderson reported in 1994 that "there was a terrific row between the NATO signals agencies in the mid 1980's over whether GSM encryption should be strong or not. The Germans said it should be, as they shared a long border with the Evil Empire; but the other countries didn't feel this way, and the algorithm as now fielded is a French design." |
| 12:48.32 | *** join/#openmoko zween (n=zween@vpn-053.vpn.net.ed.ac.uk) |
| 12:49.52 | robtaylor | why is it anytime any media wants a quote about security, they ask Ross Anderson?... i mean, he's good, but he's not that good |
| 12:50.36 | XorA | robtaylor: because most security people tend to be hermit freak mathematicians |
| 12:50.54 | robtaylor | XorA: thats true, and Ross likes the limelight, it means he gets more funding... |
| 12:51.41 | XorA | My friend once asked me to look over his simple optimisation to the RSA algorith, he handed me 8 A4 pages of maths |
| 12:52.13 | robtaylor | XorA: how's it going btw? I remember ages (years?) ago you were looking for a job in embedded linux. I take it you got one? :) |
| 12:52.28 | XorA | robtaylor: I work at wolfson now |
| 12:52.53 | XorA | robtaylor: and Im just finishing audio drivers for Neo :-) |
| 12:53.05 | robtaylor | Wolfson Microelectronics ? |
| 12:53.07 | robtaylor | cool |
| 12:53.09 | XorA | robtaylor: yeah |
| 12:53.47 | CM | hrw|gone: Nice blog post you linked at 11:52. Great rant about the scrollbars :) |
| 12:53.50 | robtaylor | linux driver development? |
| 12:54.21 | XorA | robtaylor: yes |
| 12:54.30 | robtaylor | XorA: very cool :) |
| 12:56.14 | aloril | XorA: with "changing IMEI is illegal in uk" were you thinking about reflashing or that there would be AT command to change IMEI? |
| 12:57.31 | XorA | aloril: probably a command to write to flash |
| 12:57.53 | XorA | aloril: or a serial eeprom |
| 12:58.17 | XorA | its a stupid law enacted to harrass people who run phone fixing shops |
| 13:01.11 | *** join/#openmoko DukeOfURL (n=chatzill@vc7-1-39.dsl.netrack.net) |
| 13:05.17 | *** join/#openmoko glommer (n=gcosta@201.72.62.94) |
| 13:05.20 | ynezz | but they change them anyway... |
| 13:05.40 | ynezz | law is there just for obeying |
| 13:06.35 | *** join/#openmoko krau (n=cktakaha@200.184.118.132) |
| 13:13.17 | ynezz | that's good rap |
| 13:13.49 | aloril | > If anyone knows of a (non-compliant) powered hub that supplies upstream power, please note it on the wiki. I have a feeling that this will be a much-demanded accessory in a month or so. |
| 13:13.49 | aloril | We're working on something like this now. I'm not sure when I can sell it, but it's on my To Do list. |
| 13:13.50 | aloril | http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/002746.html |
| 13:13.57 | aloril | great news |
| 13:14.49 | noidd | lookin |
| 13:14.52 | noidd | and mornin :-) |
| 13:14.54 | Robot101 | well... it's a very easy hack |
| 13:15.08 | buz | i think you can buy GSM decoders for a few 10K these days |
| 13:15.14 | buz | not legal to operate but... |
| 13:15.29 | buz | maybe you could even build your own |
| 13:17.00 | aloril | does network keep encoding of voice or will it reencode it if needed? (I guess later) |
| 13:17.47 | aloril | if we had better access to GSM, we could let it encode sounds then encrypt it with stronger algorithm and then encrypt with A5/1 (GSM encryption) |
| 13:18.02 | aloril | assuming network part doesn't want to decode voice |
| 13:18.08 | *** part/#openmoko saljam (n=sio@86.60.111.127) |
| 13:18.10 | buz | use gprs for that |
| 13:18.36 | buz | seems easier, might even work with J2ME handsets |
| 13:18.57 | aloril | how is GSM voice latency vs VoIP GPRS latency? |
| 13:19.08 | buz | i think gprs latency sucks far and by large |
| 13:19.23 | buz | but you can use GSM as 9600bps CSD channel |
| 13:19.31 | buz | that should be plenty for speex |
| 13:19.48 | mjr | yeah, if you want voip, you want a data call with reserved bandwidth, not gprs |
| 13:20.13 | mjr | with gprs you can do that push-to-talk thing, which was talked about on list, and encrypt how you wish (gpg suggested) |
| 13:21.06 | buz | speex over openssl over CSD -> crypt call |
| 13:21.11 | mjr | *nod* |
| 13:21.28 | buz | should work fine |
| 13:23.06 | aloril | OK, so CSD latency == GSM voice latency (basically) (though I guess with GSM voice you have more bandwidth, but then is speex is better codec? (or its about "its enough good")) |
| 13:23.47 | buz | http://www.speex.org/samples/ |
| 13:24.19 | buz | 6kbps could work |
| 13:24.31 | buz | tho 8 really wouldnt hurt |
| 13:25.27 | *** join/#openmoko dneary (n=dneary@251.9.39-62.rev.gaoland.net) |
| 13:25.39 | buz | probably gsm voice is lossily compressed |
| 13:28.00 | CM | buz: European GSM 06.10 standard for full-rate speech transcoding, prI-ETS 300 036,uses residual pulse excitation/long-term prediction coding at 13 kbit/s. |
| 13:28.20 | buz | mhh then why is CSD only 9.6 |
| 13:28.42 | CM | Not udp? |
| 13:29.28 | CM | I've mostly been playing with umts, and the packet loss is horrible |
| 13:29.51 | aloril | hmm.. GSM voice can also be 6kb/s, then CSD is in 'middle' |
| 13:30.59 | aloril | mickeyl: changed counter so that it now counts to 2007-02-12 00:00:00 CST - 1s/infinity instead of 2007-02-11 00:00:00 UTC |
| 13:31.19 | mickeyl | hehe, good |
| 13:31.19 | aloril | mickeyl: I guess it has better chance of being 'right' now? |
| 13:31.22 | mickeyl | yeah |
| 13:31.51 | aloril | additional 1.25 days for you and others ;-) |
| 13:31.56 | aloril | (for source code release) |
| 13:34.31 | ynezz | counter |
| 13:34.31 | aloril | a week, 3 days 16:25:28 (10.68 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.68 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.68 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 13:34.35 | *** join/#openmoko bomanizer (n=janne@a88-114-60-167.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 13:34.50 | buz | do w e know what microsd sizes are supported now? |
| 13:35.39 | madwoota | 32gb |
| 13:35.54 | buz | so sdhc is ok? |
| 13:38.51 | l3010o | openmoko isn't based on kde or gnome? |
| 13:39.09 | CM | gtk |
| 13:39.40 | aloril | hmm.. CST 23:59:59 is actually next day 08:00 AM in Finland (and even more in Taiwan, so not anymore Sunday there) |
| 13:40.51 | l3010o | so the gtk themes are compatible? |
| 13:42.08 | aloril | l3010o: I think kde/gnome use too much flash space (for internal 64MiB) |
| 13:42.39 | *** mode/#openmoko [+o ChanServ] by irc.freenode.net |
| 13:43.05 | aloril | l3010o: I heard that its stock (or almost stock) gtk+ 2.6.10 |
| 13:43.44 | aloril | see Roadmap link in topic |
| 13:44.10 | stefan_schmidt | KDE/Gnome GUI does not work on a cellphone. |
| 13:46.47 | l3010o | is it possible to install other OSes on neo? |
| 13:47.44 | mjr | IIRC the phone itself supports also winmobile, but not sure |
| 13:47.50 | mjr | porting some other free os should be possible given the example |
| 13:48.34 | aloril | at the moment there are persons at FIC working on OpenMoko and LaF0rge ('linus'), mickeyl ('debian'), XorA (sound) outside FIC, I wonder if there are any other than these 3 outside FIC |
| 13:48.48 | aloril | l3010o: I guess it won't take long before some BSD is ported |
| 13:50.28 | stefan_schmidt | aloril: mickeyl has nothing to do with debian and LaF0rge do all system level not only kernel |
| 13:51.03 | aloril | stefan_schmidt: yeah, I just picked 'some distro' ;-) |
| 13:51.11 | l3010o | aloril, how about the familiar project? |
| 13:51.26 | Ycros | stefan_schmidt: they potentially could work on a cellphone :) |
| 13:51.55 | *** join/#openmoko Administrator_ (n=chatzill@p57A0C033.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 13:52.40 | stefan_schmidt | l3010o: Not sure if your really like to port use familar on it, but you can try it. |
| 13:52.49 | *** join/#openmoko xerom (n=jack@bl4-130-230.dsl.telepac.pt) |
| 13:53.17 | l3010o | stefan_schmidt, just curious abt them :p |
| 13:54.08 | mickeyl | there is no benefit in using Familiar Linux |
| 13:54.08 | mickeyl | Familiar Linux is an OE-produced distribution |
| 13:54.08 | mickeyl | so is OpenMoko |
| 13:54.16 | mickeyl | if you're into GPE; install GPE on your Neo |
| 13:54.40 | *** join/#openmoko Administrator_ (n=chatzill@p57A0C033.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 13:54.48 | l3010o | mickeyl, whts the main difference between GPE and openmoko? |
| 13:55.20 | mickeyl | gpe is larger |
| 13:55.21 | mickeyl | :) |
| 13:55.36 | mickeyl | gpe contains a lot of cool apps |
| 13:55.36 | l3010o | mickeyl, with similar functions? |
| 13:55.40 | mickeyl | however they grew historically |
| 13:55.42 | mickeyl | and it shows in some cases |
| 13:55.58 | mickeyl | OpenMoko aims to produce a more "integrated" (for whatever that means) solution |
| 13:56.10 | mickeyl | more look&feel guidlines and stuff |
| 13:56.24 | l3010o | mickeyl, that means openmoko is going to replace GPE? |
| 13:56.31 | mickeyl | i wouldn't go so far |
| 13:56.42 | mickeyl | however it might be that GPE apps get OpenMoko interfaces eventually |
| 13:57.03 | mickeyl | or GPE replaces OpenMoko, who knows. it's up to us (the community) to decide on a system |
| 13:57.10 | l3010o | i just saw the screenshots of GPE, and it looks old |
| 13:57.28 | mickeyl | i just hope that it won't be "freedom of choice" in a sense that we have 100s of non-matching apps |
| 13:57.35 | mickeyl | all half finished |
| 13:57.51 | mickeyl | that's the curse of the ipaq and zaurus world until now |
| 13:58.09 | l3010o | it seems that handheld os is becoming the desktop ones, with many distros? |
| 13:58.12 | stefan_schmidt | It's up to us to change this |
| 13:58.38 | noidd | Well, having look and feel easily comdifiable by changing your root GtkVBOX to an OpenMokoMainVBOX (or whatever you called it) |
| 13:58.48 | noidd | should help enforce the look and feel |
| 13:58.55 | noidd | hopefully it will be that easy :-) |
| 13:59.21 | l3010o | i thk normal users in the mass market weighs the look and feel very much |
| 13:59.24 | noidd | I have to be honest, my first port of call will be the new OpenMoko Gtk widgets |
| 14:00.43 | mickeyl | let's put it that way: in my opinion, the mobile linux world is redoing the same evolution as the desktop world. honestly there is not much more than KDE and GNOME now (yes, i know, lots of tiny other things) whereas we had much more fragmentation a decade ago. I think we are in the same way in mobile Linux, but just a couple of years later than desktop Linux. |
| 14:00.46 | mickeyl | So the good news is |
| 14:00.50 | mickeyl | We will eventually get there :) |
| 14:01.02 | *** join/#openmoko stim (n=stim@203-206-0-185.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 14:01.04 | stefan_schmidt | OT: Any redhat/centos admin can tell how to enable to enable services during systemstart the redhat way? I don't have a chkconfig on this box. |
| 14:01.08 | noidd | depends if you believe the desktop made it there :-P |
| 14:01.11 | *** join/#openmoko Ryushin (i=proxy@windwalker.openinnovations.com) |
| 14:01.20 | mickeyl | desktop is not there either |
| 14:01.23 | mickeyl | but has advance |
| 14:01.25 | mickeyl | :) |
| 14:01.49 | mickeyl | look at the good things, not the bad things |
| 14:01.49 | noidd | xforms, wxwindows, qt, gtk1, gtk2, fltk |
| 14:01.51 | mickeyl | dbus |
| 14:01.57 | mickeyl | inotify |
| 14:02.05 | mickeyl | glibc |
| 14:02.11 | noidd | heh, nearly forgot - motif :-P |
| 14:02.36 | noidd | Yup - I see that. |
| 14:02.49 | mickeyl | bottom-up standardization always takes much longer than top-down |
| 14:02.49 | noidd | btw, I love the look of dbus - I spent some time digging through the docs yesterday |
| 14:02.51 | mickeyl | but it's free |
| 14:03.01 | noidd | looks like CORBA but might actually work :-P |
| 14:03.04 | mickeyl | yeah, dbus is quite good nowadays |
| 14:03.24 | mickeyl | the c++ interface still suffers a bit, but that's just a question of time |
| 14:04.30 | noidd | thats just a language binding |
| 14:04.43 | noidd | i'm sure someone can abstract or improve on that. |
| 14:05.51 | noidd | I don't have a taste for C++ |
| 14:05.51 | *** join/#openmoko unique (n=unique@ip43071.stuwe.fh-schmalkalden.de) |
| 14:06.00 | noidd | too low risk / reward. |
| 14:06.18 | noidd | for me, personally. |
| 14:06.26 | noidd | I guess I don't like working hard :-) |
| 14:06.44 | yacc | mickeyl: Well, there are other interesting ways for masochism, you don't need to hurt the world at large with your C++ programs ;) |
| 14:06.54 | noidd | have you ever used glade ? |
| 14:07.10 | mickeyl | sure |
| 14:07.15 | noidd | I used to use it mainly for prototyping UIs |
| 14:07.29 | noidd | I picked it up again last week and its come on a lot since I last used it. |
| 14:07.38 | mickeyl | glade3 looks promising |
| 14:07.45 | mickeyl | together with the new GtkBuilder architecture in Gtk |
| 14:07.57 | noidd | I'm not sure I have the skills to add the openmoko widgets to that project but its on my list to try. |
| 14:08.04 | *** join/#openmoko MetaMorfoziS (n=sajt@dsl54009E58.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 14:08.05 | noidd | GtkBuilder? |
| 14:08.08 | noidd | man, I am behind |
| 14:08.11 | noidd | hitting google |
| 14:11.28 | aloril | noidd: if you count it as 2007-02-11 23:59:59 CST, then its Monday already at Taiwan ;-) |
| 14:13.04 | *** join/#openmoko martinh (n=martinh@80.187.150.236) |
| 14:14.52 | *** join/#openmoko libervisco (n=libervis@tuxhacker/libervis) |
| 14:15.57 | noidd | rock, heh |
| 14:16.05 | *** join/#openmoko Any_Key (n=Any_Key@sedova.highlink.ru) |
| 14:16.07 | noidd | 9 days |
| 14:16.24 | noidd | till the first day |
| 14:16.27 | Any_Key | counter |
| 14:16.27 | aloril | a week, 3 days 15:43:32 (10.66 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.66 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.66 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 14:16.39 | noidd | hey, how did that happen |
| 14:16.42 | noidd | I lost a day ? |
| 14:17.06 | noidd | did you add another 24 hours aloril? |
| 14:17.09 | noidd | or did I miscount |
| 14:17.19 | CM | He changed from CET |
| 14:17.55 | noidd | ok, incrementing my calendar :-P |
| 14:18.11 | *** join/#openmoko l4rs (n=laprican@hsiproxy.astra-net.com) |
| 14:18.17 | aloril | noidd: changed from UTC to CST and also changed from 00:00:00 to 23:59:59.99999999... |
| 14:18.47 | *** join/#openmoko dyrne (i=pike@server1.freeshells.ch) |
| 14:19.06 | aloril | press release was in CST and few minutes over 23:59:59, so maybe more likely to be correct for source release too |
| 14:19.29 | aloril | noidd: added 1.25 days |
| 14:19.46 | noidd | totureous |
| 14:20.45 | noidd | Man, I would pay extra to have that happen |
| 14:21.11 | stefan_schmidt | heh |
| 14:21.57 | stefan_schmidt | mickeyl: How long a packet from tw to de takes typically? |
| 14:21.59 | *** join/#openmoko chrustinho (n=christop@p57B03A65.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 14:22.52 | mickeyl | iirc something like 4 to 5 days, but i'm not sure |
| 14:23.25 | mickeyl | LaF0rge gets all the parcels lately :) |
| 14:24.30 | TRIsoft | UPS / FedEx exactly 2 days |
| 14:24.36 | stefan_schmidt | ok |
| 14:24.49 | Kaloz | :) |
| 14:25.09 | Kaloz | stefan_schmidt: really depends on your country |
| 14:25.19 | Kaloz | stefan_schmidt: i get almost everything fast except US stuff |
| 14:25.28 | stefan_schmidt | This would allow us to hack one week on it before leaving to fosdem. We like to bring something for openmoko with us... :) |
| 14:25.36 | Kaloz | stefan_schmidt: for that for some reason the post office works quite weird |
| 14:25.50 | noidd | Well, its possible to get 2 days |
| 14:25.55 | stefan_schmidt | Kaloz: heh, all stuff from us is weird. ;) |
| 14:25.55 | Kaloz | stefan_schmidt: like the package leaves the us by plane on saturday |
| 14:26.04 | Kaloz | stefan_schmidt: and they claim the plane landed on wednesday :D |
| 14:26.16 | noidd | or at least to get from US to Taipai |
| 14:26.22 | noidd | other direction who knows. |
| 14:26.23 | Kaloz | stefan_schmidt: i'm sure quite some military agencies would be interested in such a plane :) |
| 14:26.35 | stefan_schmidt | heh |
| 14:27.16 | *** join/#openmoko silwol (n=silwol@193.170.68.74) |
| 14:27.51 | *** join/#openmoko xerom (n=jack@81.193.132.244) |
| 14:30.28 | *** join/#openmoko andrerav (i=andrerav@gaupe.stud.ntnu.no) |
| 14:31.53 | *** join/#openmoko bomanizer (n=janne@a88-114-60-151.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 14:34.02 | *** join/#openmoko [g2] (n=g2@nslu2-linux/g2) |
| 14:37.16 | *** join/#openmoko srikantux (n=sri@59.92.174.234) |
| 14:44.51 | *** join/#openmoko vetetix (n=vetetix@36.26-218-195.adsl.internet.lu) |
| 14:45.46 | *** join/#openmoko shantanoo (n=shantano@p3m/member/shantanoo) |
| 14:45.49 | shantanoo | :-O |
| 14:45.53 | shantanoo | too many people |
| 14:45.54 | buz | i'm sure they'd hate a encrypted speex over gsm though ;) |
| 14:45.55 | shantanoo | :D |
| 14:46.02 | shantanoo | nice to see that |
| 14:47.54 | Stephmw | don't the regulations mandate the ability of law enforcement to tap in? |
| 14:48.28 | *** join/#openmoko AggroNinja (n=chatzill@cpe-065-190-188-124.nc.res.rr.com) |
| 14:49.03 | shantanoo | little ot, does developers have higher priority to get the handset? |
| 14:49.50 | noidd | counter |
| 14:49.50 | aloril | a week, 3 days 15:10:09 (10.63 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.63 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.63 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 14:50.08 | noidd | shantanoo: you can order as a developer (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days |
| 14:50.35 | buz | Stephmw: well, they cant prevent you from sending arbitrary streams over a data connection now can they? |
| 14:50.35 | noidd | (2007-03-11) |
| 14:50.37 | noidd | even |
| 14:50.38 | noidd | my bad |
| 14:50.45 | buz | it's no longer real GSm if you do that... |
| 14:51.04 | buz | and they can still tap the raw data stream |
| 14:51.12 | buz | wont necessarily make much sense to them though ;) |
| 14:51.30 | shantanoo | if i haven't developed anything specific on linux embeded but i would like to develop, in that case am considered as developer? |
| 14:51.41 | buz | probably not |
| 14:51.50 | buz | developers have already been selected anyhow |
| 14:51.56 | buz | you can order one on 11th march |
| 14:52.10 | shantanoo | on 11th it will be still for developers? |
| 14:52.18 | shantanoo | or to be developers |
| 14:52.23 | shantanoo | or to be end users |
| 14:52.38 | buz | anyone who has courage can order it in march |
| 14:52.43 | buz | for end users it will be in september |
| 14:54.09 | *** join/#openmoko prpplague (n=dave@65.71.224.163) |
| 14:56.18 | *** join/#openmoko sean_mosko (n=mac@124.78.210.158) |
| 14:56.25 | *** part/#openmoko sean_mosko (n=mac@124.78.210.158) |
| 14:56.49 | mickeyl | Sean?? |
| 14:57.12 | *** join/#openmoko sean_mosko (n=mac@124.78.210.158) |
| 14:57.34 | *** part/#openmoko sean_mosko (n=mac@124.78.210.158) |
| 14:58.15 | CM | Seems to be a bit too scary for him to see all those nicks ;) |
| 14:58.59 | Morgret | We need a killer app to wow end users in September. Something that ordinary phones don't have by virtue of being products not of community but of restrictive companies. |
| 14:59.36 | Clint | FreedomApp |
| 14:59.57 | Morgret | Is that a real thing? |
| 15:00.08 | Clint | i don't know; i'm merely being facetious |
| 15:00.13 | Morgret | :P |
| 15:00.51 | Morgret | My lateral thinking hat is at the cleaners. But I'm sure we have lots of lateral thinkers in the community. |
| 15:02.15 | Morgret | How about some social networking thing for kids? They're into peer groups. |
| 15:02.34 | buz | the phone is way over priced for kids |
| 15:02.37 | buz | besides they want cams |
| 15:03.03 | buz | i think killer app must revolve around the gps |
| 15:03.10 | Morgret | True on the cam, not true on the price. They're wearing trainers that cost nearly as much as the Neo. |
| 15:03.13 | buz | because thats really a rather rare feature still |
| 15:03.29 | buz | thats because their phones are free with contract |
| 15:03.33 | CM | buz: I agree, gps is it |
| 15:03.40 | Ycros | some people at my workplace have expensive smartphones with gps |
| 15:03.49 | Ycros | they use them for navigation when they're driving |
| 15:03.50 | CM | Even just as a simple gps-logger |
| 15:04.15 | *** join/#openmoko parag0n (n=parag0n@popeshoe.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 15:04.15 | CM | That you easily can sync to the comp later |
| 15:04.21 | Ycros | OH |
| 15:04.21 | Morgret | I'm talking about mass-market, for september. Gotta stop thinking like the techies we are for that market. |
| 15:04.37 | Ycros | well |
| 15:04.54 | noidd | according to whois, sean is in China. |
| 15:04.58 | noidd | lucky man. |
| 15:05.02 | Ycros | navigation is a killer feature, if people can come up with an open source navigation app |
| 15:05.09 | Ycros | the biggest problem is map data |
| 15:05.21 | noidd | Man, I'd love to spend some time in China and the surrounding countries |
| 15:05.27 | CM | I like the photo apps that can sync gps coordinates with the exif timestamps in the photos |
| 15:05.39 | Ycros | CM: that would be cool. |
| 15:05.41 | CM | So you can have when and where the pic was taken. :) |
| 15:05.43 | buz | noidd: real chinese food isnt anything like what you get sold as chinese food in the west |
| 15:05.50 | Morgret | Or maybe not, dunno. FIC say they want it to sell in mass market in September. Maybe that's not necessary? It's up to FIC really. Will the project die, no Neo v2, if the mass-market doesn't buy the phone? |
| 15:05.53 | CM | Ycros: It already exists :) |
| 15:06.00 | Ycros | or if your phone gets stolen, it can send you its coordinates |
| 15:06.06 | Ycros | CM: i know it exists. :) |
| 15:06.15 | buz | a map with your friends moving around on it? |
| 15:06.27 | Clint | stalker's paradise |
| 15:06.27 | noidd | buz: I know. I lived near Chinatown for years |
| 15:06.29 | buz | (GRPS cost is gonna kill you but for people paying 3E for 20s ringtone?) |
| 15:06.39 | CM | Clint: That's a great name for the app ;) |
| 15:06.45 | noidd | authentic chinese food is REALLY hard to find in my part of the US |
| 15:06.54 | noidd | one restaurant in the whole ciuty that gets close. |
| 15:06.58 | buz | oh and find a way to play videos |
| 15:07.04 | Morgret | That's one possible angle: "Free Ringtones For Life!" |
| 15:07.18 | buz | so they can watch their MMS smut |
| 15:07.27 | noidd | I'm a great fan of MMS |
| 15:07.34 | buz | i still believe teenagers are the main customer for handy porn |
| 15:07.41 | noidd | or more accurately, I'm a heavy user of MMS |
| 15:08.05 | Clint | it's doable in new york, dc, and san francisco |
| 15:08.14 | buz | find a way to have the neo help cheat at school |
| 15:08.20 | CM | last year i've sent 3393 sms and 32 mms... |
| 15:08.20 | buz | and you'll sell them by the 100 thousands |
| 15:09.05 | noidd | My local Chinese restaurants business card says: "We also serve REAL chinese food". |
| 15:09.24 | noidd | making the obvious distinction between Americanized sugary gloop and reality |
| 15:09.36 | buz | i actually prefer chop suey to the real stuff |
| 15:09.51 | Ycros | noidd: what is the difference? |
| 15:10.04 | buz | much more veggies in real chinese food |
| 15:10.40 | CM | From what I've heard it doesn't taste good |
| 15:10.41 | buz | (i still think stir frying salad is a crime) |
| 15:11.32 | buz | i didnt particularly care for real chinese food when i was in HK |
| 15:11.46 | leventhal | I prefer real chinese too.. forget the sugar, load me up with chilis |
| 15:12.05 | buz | mhh isnt chilis more thai than chinese? |
| 15:12.16 | Ycros | mmm, thai. |
| 15:12.20 | Ycros | I'm in australia |
| 15:12.30 | Ycros | so I don't know if we get the same "fake" stuff like in america |
| 15:12.39 | leventhal | Maybe but you can always ask for them to add some |
| 15:12.46 | buz | sure |
| 15:12.48 | leventhal | And there's always that chili paste sauce |
| 15:13.12 | buz | i dont think thats chinese at all |
| 15:13.33 | Clint | sichuan province uses a lot of chili |
| 15:13.43 | buz | point |
| 15:13.49 | buz | i actually like sichuan style the best |
| 15:13.53 | buz | not as bland as many others |
| 15:13.55 | leventhal | http://www.quickspice.com/scstore/images/sambal-olik_lg.jpg |
| 15:14.02 | leventhal | I always see that stuff in every chinese place |
| 15:14.31 | buz | Sambal is a condiment used in Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore and Sri Lanka, made from a variety of peppers, |
| 15:14.43 | buz | but in some ways, it's the asian version of ketchup |
| 15:15.08 | leventhal | i think i'm addicted to it |
| 15:15.35 | buz | hehe i even put it over pasta |
| 15:15.48 | leventhal | me too |
| 15:16.00 | buz | (really the only way to make pasta taste like something= |
| 15:16.05 | *** join/#openmoko MetaMorfoziS (n=sajt@dsl54009E58.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 15:16.18 | leventhal | my pastas are weird though. i like to crush up a scotch bonnet per serving of tomato sauce. |
| 15:16.38 | Clint | that seems reasonable |
| 15:16.59 | leventhal | it also means no one steals my leftovers |
| 15:18.28 | noidd | another chillihead |
| 15:18.48 | Ycros | I've been putting chilli paste/sauce all over everything recently |
| 15:18.52 | Ycros | it's delicious |
| 15:18.55 | Ycros | I also like sweet chilli |
| 15:19.17 | buz | yikes sweet chili sauce |
| 15:19.19 | leventhal | Yeah.. it was hilarious when i went to a caribbean grocery store and tried to buy two twelve packs of scotch bonnet |
| 15:19.25 | buz | basically sugar syrup with some chili |
| 15:19.31 | leventhal | cashier saw it, eyes went wide and he said "no no no! not for you!" |
| 15:19.49 | Ycros | buz: yeah, it's weird, but I like it |
| 15:21.39 | Ycros | http://www.abc.net.au/canberra/stories/s1338479.htm <--- sweet chilli recipe |
| 15:21.41 | leventhal | simple syrup and chili eh.. interesting |
| 15:22.10 | Clint | there's a company that sells chili-infused maple syrup |
| 15:22.39 | leventhal | that's the only thing more wrong than caffeinated hot sauce |
| 15:23.10 | Ycros | leventhal: bah, it's delicious. |
| 15:23.24 | *** join/#openmoko Matt_PI (n=chatzill@c-75-68-22-196.hsd1.nh.comcast.net) |
| 15:23.26 | Ycros | it's sweet and hot at the same time |
| 15:23.26 | leventhal | Ycros: no, I mean the chili-infused maple syrup |
| 15:23.31 | Ycros | oh, right |
| 15:23.41 | Ycros | that sounds like it could be delicious as well |
| 15:23.50 | Ycros | I like maple syrup |
| 15:24.20 | buz | i dont like sugary stuff in general |
| 15:24.27 | buz | maybe except for chocolate and ice cream |
| 15:24.34 | leventhal | going to a maple farm has ruined me towards almost all store bought maple syrup |
| 15:24.40 | Ycros | mmm, chocolate |
| 15:24.41 | buz | and stay away with chili chocolate, that's just wrong |
| 15:24.53 | Ycros | my mother likes dark chocolate, the darker the better |
| 15:25.07 | buz | mhh i like dark, but no more than 65% cacoa |
| 15:25.10 | Ycros | I don't like it so much, too bitter |
| 15:25.13 | buz | 70+ is just too damn hard |
| 15:25.24 | Ycros | oh she likes it |
| 15:25.24 | Ycros | hehe |
| 15:25.36 | Ycros | I like Nutella, the hazelnut spread |
| 15:25.38 | Ycros | delicious. |
| 15:25.43 | Ycros | and nutty |
| 15:25.46 | buz | cant stand the stuff |
| 15:25.54 | buz | i dont put sweet stuff on bread anyway |
| 15:25.58 | noidd | bleugh |
| 15:26.25 | buz | then again in most of the world, there is no bread |
| 15:26.32 | buz | just plastic foam sold as bread |
| 15:26.35 | Ycros | you don't have to put it on bread |
| 15:26.36 | Ycros | :P |
| 15:26.44 | buz | oh i like proper bread |
| 15:26.47 | Ycros | but it's like jam on bread or something |
| 15:26.49 | buz | the darker the better |
| 15:26.50 | leventhal | I hear nutella is good in oatmeal |
| 15:26.57 | buz | yeah i cant stand jam either ;) |
| 15:27.02 | Ycros | I like sour dough bread |
| 15:27.03 | Ycros | heh |
| 15:29.10 | CM | leventhal: How different is a scotch bonnet from a habanero? |
| 15:29.30 | buz | not much according to wikipedia |
| 15:29.35 | buz | slithg difference in taste |
| 15:29.47 | leventhal | CM: Touch sweeter.. and the top end of scotch bonnet intersects with the low end of habenaro on the scoville scale |
| 15:29.58 | Ycros | mm jam, raspberry is my favorite jam, followed by strawberry |
| 15:30.01 | CM | leventhal: Ok, thanks |
| 15:30.21 | leventhal | They're a lot easier to come by here for some reason |
| 15:30.22 | leventhal | np |
| 15:30.27 | *** join/#openmoko xerom (n=jack@81.193.131.253) |
| 15:30.43 | CM | Just remember my dad getting blisters on his fingers after chopping 3 habaneros for a big stew |
| 15:31.02 | *** join/#openmoko MetaMorfoziS (n=sajt@dsl54009E58.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 15:31.02 | Ycros | heh |
| 15:31.12 | leventhal | Yeah.. that sort of thing happens, heh. |
| 15:31.39 | leventhal | For really spicy stuff I have cheap disposable plastic gloves |
| 15:31.50 | leventhal | Otherwise I wind up with red, swollen hands. |
| 15:32.42 | CM | I have some kind of habanero tabasco at home |
| 15:32.57 | CM | It's mango in it too I think. Tasty anyway :) |
| 15:33.21 | leventhal | mmm.. mango.. |
| 15:33.34 | CM | http://www.tabasco.com/tabasco_tent/pepper_sauce/habanero_pepper_sauce.cfm |
| 15:34.05 | CM | My cousin is mad about chilis, got it from him. :) |
| 15:35.29 | leventhal | That stuff is good on hawaiian pizza |
| 15:35.41 | leventhal | unfortunately it's only 7000-8000 scoville |
| 15:35.47 | CM | Only "hot" icons |
| 15:39.12 | leventhal | I wish I brought my hot sauces to work.. I'm craving something spicy now, lol |
| 15:39.31 | Ycros | argh all this talk makes me hungry |
| 15:39.49 | noidd | Yeah, theming is really important |
| 15:39.54 | noidd | eye-candy sells phones ;-D |
| 15:48.44 | *** join/#openmoko LaF0rge (n=laforge@sunbeam.ipv6.gnumonks.org) |
| 15:53.53 | buz | i think eye candy in form of industrial design of the form itself sells even more |
| 15:54.08 | *** join/#openmoko MiniMoose (i=dave@c-24-16-216-41.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
| 15:57.36 | noidd | brushed titanium casings? :-) |
| 15:58.03 | noidd | WRU modular cellphones |
| 15:58.08 | noidd | meaning modular hardware |
| 15:59.35 | *** join/#openmoko bkuhn (n=bkuhn@thurgood-marshall.sflc.info) |
| 16:04.59 | *** join/#openmoko MiniMoose (i=dave@c-24-16-216-41.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) |
| 16:05.45 | *** join/#openmoko koen|gprs (n=koen@vpn006205.vpn.utwente.nl) |
| 16:07.26 | libervisco | Hi |
| 16:08.55 | *** join/#openmoko parag0n_ (n=parag0n@popeshoe.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 16:24.24 | *** join/#openmoko AggroNinja_ (n=chatzill@cpe-065-190-188-124.nc.res.rr.com) |
| 16:26.35 | *** join/#openmoko AggroNinja_ (n=chatzill@cpe-065-190-188-124.nc.res.rr.com) |
| 16:28.01 | *** join/#openmoko Rac0r (n=Rac0r@p5081D34D.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 16:28.07 | aloril | buz: morse communication between peers during exam (vibration + tap screen) ;-) |
| 16:30.15 | *** join/#openmoko parag0n (n=parag0n@popeshoe.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 16:30.25 | *** join/#openmoko vetetix (n=vetetix@36.26-218-195.adsl.internet.lu) |
| 16:30.29 | aloril | receiving is easy, but how to send morse without anybody realizing is harder |
| 16:31.23 | *** join/#openmoko chrustinho (n=christop@p57B03A65.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 16:33.13 | leventhal | i've seen it done with a switch placed under a toe |
| 16:33.49 | aloril | hmm.. yeah, does neo have mic input? |
| 16:34.42 | leventhal | i think they already stated it has a jack for a hands free kit |
| 16:35.39 | aloril | ah, then it should be ok: connect wires to that... though if it becomes popular, then shoe searches will become common too ;-) |
| 16:36.30 | aloril | or simple collect neos at start of exam and give back when over |
| 16:36.35 | aloril | s/simple/simply/ |
| 16:36.40 | leventhal | that's what mine does |
| 16:37.12 | leventhal | they also take digital watches, ipods, calculators.. |
| 16:38.04 | XorA | counter |
| 16:38.05 | aloril | a week, 3 days 13:21:55 (10.56 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.56 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.56 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 16:38.11 | leventhal | the rule is no electronics on your person at all. they don't exactly search folks but if they see anything, zero on the exam and an interview with the dean to see if they kick you out. |
| 16:38.12 | XorA | the day all questions are answered :-) |
| 16:38.24 | aloril | hmm.. gumstix hidden in shoe ;-) |
| 16:38.31 | leventhal | there's an idea |
| 16:39.19 | leventhal | casino cheats lead the way in concealable computers |
| 16:39.32 | aloril | leventhal: yeah |
| 16:39.55 | leventhal | i was interested in the gadgetry they came up with for roulette cheats |
| 16:40.14 | aloril | once somebody has eye implant -> might not be possible to enforce anymore |
| 16:40.32 | XorA | gadgets to cheat in casinos are legal in the UK :-) |
| 16:40.49 | *** join/#openmoko koen|gprs_ (n=koen@212.41.157.237) |
| 16:41.02 | XorA | hey koen|gprs |
| 16:41.06 | XorA | hey koen|gprs_ |
| 16:41.07 | leventhal | don't know about that here.. but i do remember the casino in niagara swiping my driver's license without my consent, which is illegal |
| 16:41.39 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@9.80-202-160.nextgentel.com) |
| 16:42.21 | XorA | leventhal: I suspect in the legal world you probably consented by walking into their property |
| 16:43.19 | leventhal | nah, requires informed consent to give up all the details contained in the magstripe |
| 16:43.22 | koen|gprs_ | hey XorA |
| 16:43.30 | leventhal | and the sign next to the guard didn't say anything about swiping my card |
| 16:43.51 | leventhal | it's been ruled illegal to do at bars |
| 16:44.17 | XorA | leventhal: unfortuneately in these circumstances they tend to have a bigger legal team :-) |
| 16:44.23 | leventhal | uh huh |
| 16:44.35 | XorA | burning the place down, thats the way to go |
| 16:44.38 | leventhal | if they had told me they were swiping my card i would have turned around and gone to a different casino |
| 16:45.10 | leventhal | instead i just kinda looked sick, then went in to check out the blackjack tables, then went out and crossed the street to hooters |
| 16:45.28 | XorA | mmmmmm, bewbies |
| 16:46.23 | *** join/#openmoko koljoman (n=nenni@rb4d109.net.upc.cz) |
| 16:46.37 | leventhal | uh huh. my wings were sub-par but the waitress apologised profusely. her apology left me slack jawed it was so good. |
| 16:46.39 | koljoman | hi a"moko"s |
| 16:46.41 | *** join/#openmoko orospakr (n=orospakr@bas11-ottawa23-1096658910.dsl.bell.ca) |
| 16:47.16 | aloril | print your own casing |
| 16:50.17 | leventhal | that thing is very cool but the results are often.. not production quality |
| 16:50.19 | leventhal | http://fabathome.org/wiki/uploads/thumb/6/6b/WatchBand_001.jpg/800px-WatchBand_001.jpg |
| 16:50.37 | *** join/#openmoko koen|gprs__ (n=koen@212.41.157.237) |
| 16:51.41 | aloril | related 3D printers: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/002672.html |
| 16:51.50 | *** join/#openmoko bmidgley_ (n=bmidgley@c-67-166-71-203.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 16:53.05 | aloril | leventhal: yeah, I guess its quite early, but still I see start of "personal self build 3D printers" similar to 70s for "personal computers build by hobbyist" |
| 16:53.13 | leventhal | me too |
| 16:53.40 | *** part/#openmoko silwol (n=silwol@193.170.68.74) |
| 16:54.10 | XorA | we need hooters in the UK |
| 16:54.41 | aloril | should become more clear and/or hotter topic with advent of 3D printers ;-) |
| 16:54.54 | leventhal | " |
| 16:54.54 | leventhal | "Imagine typing in page after page of DATA statements for it, copied out of the back of Fabricate! magazine. Ah, those were the days.... |
| 16:58.59 | parag0n | i'm building a 3d printer at the moment :D |
| 16:59.18 | MetaMorfoziS | has that linux support? |
| 17:01.36 | *** join/#openmoko ozamosi (n=ozamosi@cust.fiber-lan.vnet.lk.85.194.49.186.stunet.se) |
| 17:04.36 | *** join/#openmoko christoph_ (n=christop@p57B000D8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 17:04.56 | *** join/#openmoko spikeb (n=spikeb@69-179-67-15.dyn.centurytel.net) |
| 17:07.26 | aloril | thats the difference between mailing list and this channel: |
| 17:07.32 | aloril | ML: "Unless of course you don't mind me coming over and 'sharing' your refrigerator." |
| 17:07.45 | aloril | this: "i'm building a 3d printer at the moment :D" |
| 17:08.08 | SpeedEvil | 3D printers don't get really interesting till you can print 3D printers with them. |
| 17:08.43 | aloril | SpeedEvil: yeah, that's the 'ultimate' |
| 17:08.54 | buz | grey goo comes shortly after |
| 17:08.56 | spikeb | hmm |
| 17:09.01 | spikeb | printing girlfriends would be interesting. |
| 17:09.03 | SpeedEvil | Well - the ultimate is general purpose nanotech. |
| 17:09.19 | buz | spikeb only if they are sterile, could get really expensive otherwise |
| 17:09.29 | spikeb | haha buz great point |
| 17:10.26 | buz | tech for 3d printing seems vastly harder than computer to me |
| 17:10.26 | SpeedEvil | It depends. |
| 17:10.27 | SpeedEvil | It's not really for simple ones. |
| 17:10.27 | buz | i mean, sure 3d silicone printers arent hard |
| 17:10.27 | buz | but multi material ones? |
| 17:10.37 | SpeedEvil | Yeah - if you want it general purpose, that gets hard fast. |
| 17:10.51 | SpeedEvil | Especially if you want the parts to be more than decorative or light duty. |
| 17:10.53 | buz | the whole point of PCs was that they were general purpose |
| 17:11.00 | aloril | might take a while before printing good CPU's is possible ;-) |
| 17:11.10 | SpeedEvil | 3D printers that can print a IC engine for example is hard. |
| 17:11.35 | buz | a 3d mill to cut one out of steel seems more feasible |
| 17:12.02 | SpeedEvil | True. |
| 17:12.06 | buz | 3d printing with metals would be interesting |
| 17:12.11 | aloril | buz: well.. still, PCs are by factor of 1000x worse in energy usage than ASIC made for purpose |
| 17:12.13 | buz | thinking of it, that actually exists |
| 17:12.38 | buz | theres a german (IIRC) company that uses lasers to put layers of metal dust together |
| 17:12.41 | buz | really cool stuff |
| 17:13.05 | aloril | so.. if 3D printer is factor of 1000x worse than special fabs doing latest chips it would be similarly generic ;-) |
| 17:13.17 | spikeb | i have stumbled into geek heaven. horray. |
| 17:13.51 | buz | would that mean i get to print a 486 now? |
| 17:14.20 | buz | thats about 1mio transistors as opposed to the nearly 1billion in latest cpus |
| 17:14.28 | spikeb | hmm that'd be cool. |
| 17:14.42 | buz | or maybe we can print fiats instead of ferraris |
| 17:14.47 | buz | (not sure id want that) |
| 17:15.58 | aloril | buz: hmm.. good point, I wonder what is current ratio of 3D printer accuracy/fab accuracy |
| 17:16.19 | buz | the metal dust things were truly impressive |
| 17:16.27 | buz | quite likely better than most 3d metal mills |
| 17:16.49 | buz | and fully automatic |
| 17:17.19 | buz | oh the procesds is called laser sintering |
| 17:18.00 | buz | well technically chips are still printed i guess |
| 17:18.23 | aloril | buz: yes, but I mean using generic 3D printer ;-) |
| 17:18.24 | buz | only with reaaaallly expensive printers |
| 17:18.35 | buz | http://www.eos.info/home.html?L=1 |
| 17:18.38 | *** join/#openmoko ph5|ma (n=ph5@e178232090.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 17:18.49 | buz | mhh that can do plastic an metal |
| 17:20.25 | buz | You can leverage this effect by integrating several functions into the product design. For example, you can integrate movable hinges. These are manufactured ? ready to use ? in a single laser-sintering process. |
| 17:20.30 | buz | thats f****** impressive |
| 17:20.40 | Robot101 | bzzt, use of leverage as a verb. |
| 17:21.00 | buz | that might print that ICE, right there |
| 17:21.12 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=bob@p85.212.152.122.tisdip.tiscali.de) |
| 17:21.31 | buz | now where can i order the house printer |
| 17:22.00 | XorA | I saw one of those on some website |
| 17:22.18 | Robot101 | buz: reprap.org is making an open source printer |
| 17:22.32 | parag0n | mine is a dual-material one, we're using inkjet technology for the print head, it'll be able to print up to 60cm^3 |
| 17:22.53 | buz | laser seems more promising than inkjet to me |
| 17:23.38 | parag0n | the 3 axes are controlled by worm ears on stepper motors, all driven by AVRs, connected to a linux + ARM sbc |
| 17:24.04 | leventhal | mmm.. AVRs |
| 17:24.13 | buz | how does it do metal with "These extruders produce fine filaments of their working material with a paste-like consistenc" |
| 17:24.23 | aloril | http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3238 |
| 17:24.30 | buz | they must have different metals than i usually see |
| 17:24.39 | parag0n | there are low melting point metals that are normally used |
| 17:24.58 | buz | mhh stuff made out of tin isnt really very durable |
| 17:25.05 | buz | and lead doesnt come near me |
| 17:25.24 | parag0n | the printer melts the material, and deposits it in tiny blobs |
| 17:25.30 | parag0n | its not lead based |
| 17:25.39 | parag0n | all rohs compliant i think |
| 17:25.43 | buz | well that was just an idea for low melting point metals |
| 17:25.47 | buz | tin is RoHS |
| 17:25.52 | leventhal | whoa.. it can print metal? that's awesome! |
| 17:26.02 | rob_w | ah i got mail |
| 17:26.10 | parag0n | it wouldn't be very durable metal, but yes |
| 17:26.59 | *** join/#openmoko TRIsoft (i=Mac@p57A2930A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 17:27.10 | buz | the self replicating thing i'll believe when i see it |
| 17:27.33 | *** join/#openmoko apakatt (n=apakatt@89.207.216.81.static.j.siw.siwnet.net) |
| 17:27.47 | leventhal | If you can get PCB printers to the $2500 range I'll build one |
| 17:28.03 | buz | gimme pcb + wave soldering |
| 17:28.14 | leventhal | yeah.. that would be awesome |
| 17:28.18 | buz | i think you could actually inkjet pcbs |
| 17:28.30 | aloril | just expensive machines ;-) |
| 17:28.32 | buz | there is conducive ink |
| 17:28.54 | parag0n | ours wont be able to 100% self replicate, but it'll be able to print out about 40-50% of the parts for building one |
| 17:30.21 | parag0n | hmm... pinting neo cases.... >:) |
| 17:34.26 | aloril | hmm.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid_freeform_fabrication says 0.005mm, that's about factor of 100x100x worse than chip fabs |
| 17:35.34 | *** join/#openmoko dneary (n=dneary@251.9.39-62.rev.gaoland.net) |
| 17:36.18 | aloril | (or hobby printer: another factor of 20x20x worse) |
| 17:49.00 | *** join/#openmoko Eludias (n=eludias@wingding.demon.nl) |
| 17:49.41 | *** join/#openmoko tr2x (n=alvar@80-218-185-55.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 18:04.51 | *** join/#openmoko rejo1 (n=rejon@adsl-75-5-124-98.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) |
| 18:05.19 | *** join/#openmoko vetetix (n=vetetix@36.26-218-195.adsl.internet.lu) |
| 18:05.48 | *** join/#openmoko awake`zzz (n=Zzz@c211-31-52-146.rivrw5.nsw.optusnet.com.au) |
| 18:05.50 | *** join/#openmoko eikonos (n=eikonos@frrrc01.vic.sfl.net) |
| 18:11.36 | *** part/#openmoko awake`zzz (n=Zzz@c211-31-52-146.rivrw5.nsw.optusnet.com.au) |
| 18:14.25 | *** join/#openmoko zween (n=zween@212-139-182-173.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) |
| 18:24.44 | *** join/#openmoko Elrond (i=[fdcixYq@irc.fem.tu-ilmenau.de) |
| 18:24.59 | Elrond | Evening guys. What's new? |
| 18:25.12 | Elrond | Oh, and girls! |
| 18:27.57 | SpeedEvil | We've decided that the neo V3 needs to come with a star-trek replicator. |
| 18:28.25 | Stephmw | SpeedEvil: we've given up on the V12? |
| 18:28.26 | Elrond | Oh, nice. :-) |
| 18:28.59 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Will it come with a closed areplicatord ? ;o) |
| 18:29.39 | mjr | :D |
| 18:29.40 | *** join/#openmoko MetaMorfoziS (n=sajt@dsl54009E58.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 18:30.34 | mjr | Stephmw, hmm, I only wanted a v8, but 12 _is_ a bigger number, so... no! |
| 18:35.35 | buz | the 3d printer will make any number of v12 |
| 18:36.06 | Elrond | What's the difference between a 3d printer and a startrek replicator? |
| 18:37.36 | Morgret | reality |
| 18:37.52 | Elrond | Huh? |
| 18:38.12 | Morgret | Just answered your question :-) |
| 18:38.59 | Elrond | Hmm |
| 18:39.23 | Elrond | counter |
| 18:39.24 | aloril | a week, 3 days 11:20:36 (10.47 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.47 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.47 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 18:40.32 | Elrond | Huh, has `counter` changed its timezone? |
| 18:41.41 | Morgret | Yeah, it was corrected by Mickey |
| 18:41.56 | Elrond | Ahh. |
| 18:42.17 | Elrond | apropos mickey: Did he give _any_ comment on the (a)gpsd issue? |
| 18:43.02 | SpeedEvil | I had some thoughts on that last night. |
| 18:43.26 | SpeedEvil | From inspection of the hammerhead GPS datasheet, it looks like the position determination is completely done in the gpsd |
| 18:43.36 | Morgret | Yes. He said that while we will certainly have access to the Hammerhead's interface, whether FIC would be able to disclose the details of talking to it was probably in a lot of doubt. |
| 18:44.08 | SpeedEvil | It's actually illegal in many places to supply a device which can provide positions >1000Kt/20000ft |
| 18:44.09 | *** join/#openmoko r4kY (n=Ladder_@ws42107.studby.hig.no) |
| 18:44.21 | SpeedEvil | This may be one of the reasons that gpsd is closed source. |
| 18:44.24 | SpeedEvil | On the flipside. |
| 18:44.48 | SpeedEvil | It looks like the hardware is dumb enough that it's likely to be fairly simple to crack. |
| 18:46.01 | Elrond | Hmm, I wonder, if it's illegal in .de. |
| 18:46.17 | Elrond | (I mean: providing those positions) |
| 18:46.18 | Morgret | I don't doubt that. What I dislike though is that it makes the phone less open than expected. We strongly believed at all the hardware accessible to the host SoC would be fully documented. |
| 18:46.26 | SpeedEvil | Yeah. |
| 18:46.49 | SpeedEvil | However, if the phone cannot legally be imported into major markets, because it's open. |
| 18:46.51 | SpeedEvil | ... |
| 18:46.52 | Elrond | Morgret - Right, right. |
| 18:47.06 | spikeb | best hope this doesn't hurt too badly on the PR front. |
| 18:47.14 | aloril | well.. you can replace that yourself later ;-) |
| 18:47.26 | so_solid_moo | they were open about the nonfree agpsd from the start though |
| 18:47.56 | spikeb | well then it won't hurt any. |
| 18:47.59 | Elrond | so_solid_moo - Basicly: Yes. But it was not 100% clear, what the reason for the non-openness was. |
| 18:48.01 | aloril | I mean if you can't have source included in Neo1973 sold, you can always download replacement |
| 18:48.16 | Morgret | You see, the problem is that seeing as it may not be open or openly documented after all, they might as well have included a closed wifi module in the same way. They said that they didn't because it conflicted with their position on openness. Well ... I see a conflict. |
| 18:48.18 | so_solid_moo | Elrond: I don't think the reason matters; it's the freeness, and they were clear about that |
| 18:48.36 | spikeb | Morgret, i agree there actually |
| 18:48.49 | spikeb | especially considering the usefulness of wifi |
| 18:48.51 | Elrond | Morgret - I 99% agree. :) |
| 18:48.58 | Morgret | Now we have to ask them why no wifi ... seeing as the GPS is closed too. |
| 18:49.12 | so_solid_moo | because the gps doesn't require a kernel driver |
| 18:49.19 | so_solid_moo | non-free kernel wifi drivers aren't legal |
| 18:49.29 | Morgret | GSM doesn't require a kernel driver either. |
| 18:50.00 | Elrond | so_solid_moo - The wifi thing could happen in userspace. |
| 18:50.15 | so_solid_moo | Elrond: sure, if you developed an 802.11 stack for userspace :D |
| 18:50.19 | Elrond | Morgret - The GSM at least has a documented interface/protocol. |
| 18:50.26 | so_solid_moo | even then the speed would suck |
| 18:50.33 | Morgret | Yep. So they have not been consistent. But if they provide GPS documentation, then all will be well. |
| 18:50.35 | Elrond | so_solid_moo - tun/tap exists. |
| 18:50.36 | *** join/#openmoko prpplague^2 (n=dave@12.190.41.146) |
| 18:50.49 | so_solid_moo | Elrond: how is that relevant? |
| 18:51.12 | Elrond | so_solid_moo - wifi is ethernet-like, right? Just play a tap-client in userspace. Job done. |
| 18:51.28 | Morgret | Elrond: the Hammerhead has a well documented protocol? Where? You don't get NMEA from it, that comes from the closed daemon. |
| 18:51.31 | so_solid_moo | Elrond: it doesn't work at all like that I'm afraid |
| 18:51.47 | Elrond | Morgret - GSM! |
| 18:51.49 | *** join/#openmoko thedaniel (n=daniel@38.98.1.19) |
| 18:52.14 | Elrond | so_solid_moo - Huh? |
| 18:52.22 | noidd | GSM kernel interface is fully open, with sources. |
| 18:52.29 | Morgret | Elrond: yep, OK, I misread you saying GPS, not GSM :P |
| 18:52.31 | noidd | it's a serial port. Knock yourself out ;-D |
| 18:52.36 | so_solid_moo | Elrond: you don't develop a wireless driver based over an ethernet device |
| 18:52.47 | so_solid_moo | Elrond: the problem is the wifi ethernet driver in the first place |
| 18:53.13 | Morgret | noidd: we're talking about GPS and what Mickey said about it --- the topic got a bit hijacked onto GSM |
| 18:54.52 | noidd | Well, if you don't like it - kill -9 gpsd :-) |
| 18:55.18 | noidd | the problems we had historically with the closed source stuff was because they were closed source kernel modules |
| 18:56.00 | Morgret | noidd: no, you've missed the discussion. We're not talking about agpsd, but about the interface to the Hammerhead |
| 18:56.03 | Elrond | closed source userspace makes live easier. Yes. |
| 18:56.10 | Elrond | But the base issue remains. |
| 18:56.29 | noidd | interface to hammerhead is going to be a serial port i'm guessing |
| 18:56.41 | Elrond | Right. |
| 18:56.43 | Elrond | I guess so too. |
| 18:56.53 | Elrond | But we probably wont get any info on the protocol. |
| 18:56.57 | noidd | anyone good with spherical trig should be able to write it :-) |
| 18:57.07 | Morgret | It's the proprietary stream --- Mickey reckoned FIC will not be able to release the info for it. |
| 18:57.35 | Morgret | noidd: you have to understand the binary gibberish before you can do the math. |
| 18:57.50 | noidd | I guess i'm more pragmatic than most of you guys. |
| 18:58.12 | *** join/#openmoko pleemans (n=peter@d51A5E76A.access.telenet.be) |
| 18:58.12 | spikeb | bah |
| 18:58.15 | Morgret | noidd: you don't care that a part of the Neo that is accessible to the host SoC is not open? |
| 18:58.33 | noidd | after all, if they used a GPS module that emitted NMEA stright to a tty you wouldn't be crying for the firmware sources to that :-) |
| 18:58.48 | *** join/#openmoko Matt_PI (n=chatzill@209.198.66.141) |
| 18:58.53 | pH5 | heh. I wish I could see the firmware sources for the ti gsm chip. |
| 18:59.05 | noidd | you're not the only one ph5 :-) |
| 18:59.10 | Stephmw | if you could, you'd be NDA-gagged :) |
| 18:59.21 | Morgret | Correct, because a firmware blob is just a complex form of initialization. This is more, we need to communicate with the GPS device. |
| 19:00.16 | Morgret | This is why even Theo of OpenBSD has no problem with binary firmware blobs, as long as they are distributable. They are only initialization. |
| 19:00.28 | *** join/#openmoko koen|gprs__ (n=koen@212.41.157.237) |
| 19:00.39 | Morgret | That is very different to lack of documentation at a programmable interface. |
| 19:00.42 | Elrond | Heh, Am I the only one having the impression, that we mix up gsm firmware closedness with gps-stream-proctocol-closedness (and the firmware on the gps chip)? |
| 19:00.54 | Morgret | We're not talking about GSM |
| 19:00.57 | parag0n | gps is closed now too? |
| 19:01.01 | parag0n | jees |
| 19:01.09 | parag0n | why not just buy something from motorola |
| 19:01.20 | Elrond | parag0n - Basicly: Yes. |
| 19:01.31 | noidd | an arbitrary descision made on a pragmatic level by religous zelots to save face |
| 19:01.33 | koen|gprs__ | Elrond: the gps is a softgps, which requires software post-processing |
| 19:01.51 | Morgret | We're just commenting on an answer given by Mickey. However, things could change, and they might be able to document the GPS ... we'll have to talk to Sean. |
| 19:01.52 | SpeedEvil | http://axion.physics.ubc.ca/ITAR.html is the latest one I've found. |
| 19:01.55 | parag0n | why can't they pass nmea data to the cpu :/ |
| 19:01.56 | koen|gprs__ | Elrond: which basically means that the 'stream' is useless to us without agpsd |
| 19:02.09 | SpeedEvil | Is the international regulations. |
| 19:02.17 | noidd | I'm not intending to be a dick but if you're going to stand on principles and claim no exceptions. Make no exceptions. |
| 19:02.17 | SpeedEvil | parag0n: because there is no NEMA signal. |
| 19:02.18 | *** join/#openmoko dneary (n=dneary@251.9.39-62.rev.gaoland.net) |
| 19:02.26 | SpeedEvil | the CPU computes it. |
| 19:02.28 | parag0n | lame |
| 19:02.45 | SpeedEvil | Or ratehre, the gpsd running on the computes it. |
| 19:02.58 | noidd | exactly what koen and speedevil says. |
| 19:03.37 | koen|gprs__ | if the gps is on the uart it shouldn't be much work to reverse-engineer the stream |
| 19:03.38 | Elrond | koen|gprs__ - Which will not stop us from decyphering the stream and writing our own gpsd. |
| 19:03.41 | mjr | the closed gpsd is an imperfection, but should be fixable if motivated enough |
| 19:03.51 | SpeedEvil | the gps is _not_ a uart. |
| 19:03.54 | koen|gprs__ | especially if you have another gps nearby |
| 19:04.08 | SpeedEvil | It's a bitstream representing the doppler shift to satellites in view. |
| 19:04.10 | Morgret | noidd: correct, we're trying to be consistent with Sean's reason for no wifi --- because it would have to be closed hardware. Well, they've included GPS hardware which is accessible to us ... but it turns out that it may well be closed (needs confirming). The agpsd closed daemon is irrelevant to this discussion --- we could just ignore it, if the GPS hardware stream was documented. |
| 19:04.40 | SpeedEvil | This is moderately hard to process into a position, but not very. |
| 19:05.04 | SpeedEvil | And if you have it completely open, it may actually mean that you can't import/export the device, as it comes under ITAR |
| 19:05.12 | SpeedEvil | (see the above link) |
| 19:05.59 | mjr | Curious. So if somebody writes an open agpsd replacement, I'll be an arms smuggler if I install it and travel across borders? :] |
| 19:06.02 | *** join/#openmoko koen|gprs_ (n=koen@vpn006061.vpn.utwente.nl) |
| 19:06.02 | mjr | cool |
| 19:06.03 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Any idea, which countries that would affect? |
| 19:06.23 | SpeedEvil | I'm unsure - I know US. |
| 19:06.37 | Elrond | mjr - That would have been my next question. |
| 19:07.13 | Elrond | Would the software itself also be a weapon? |
| 19:07.22 | *** join/#openmoko koen|gprs__ (n=koen@212.41.157.237) |
| 19:07.22 | SpeedEvil | Current as of 1997 |
| 19:07.25 | SpeedEvil | http://fas.org/spp/starwars/offdocs/itar/p121.htm |
| 19:07.45 | SpeedEvil | It's a munition - under the ITAR regulations if it can produce positioning over 1000kt/60000ft |
| 19:07.54 | SpeedEvil | As an open GPS would be able to. |
| 19:08.23 | Elrond | "kt"? |
| 19:08.27 | SpeedEvil | knots |
| 19:08.45 | Elrond | What does it need to move you people to SI? ;) |
| 19:08.50 | so_solid_moo | assuming that the hardware doesn't stop you |
| 19:08.56 | Morgret | The Hammerhead is a consumer chip, not a military chip. GPS integrators don't need security clearance afaik, so I think this is going off at a tangent. The reason Infineon/GL don't disclose it except to intergators is purely commercial. |
| 19:09.34 | Elrond | Morgret - You're probably right. |
| 19:09.56 | mjr | sounds more plausible than SpeedEvil's speculation |
| 19:10.03 | SpeedEvil | Read the ITAR rules. |
| 19:10.45 | SpeedEvil | Immediately after the section that defines a GPS that can output positions at high speeds/altitudes is the stuff prohibiting nuclear weapon test equipment. |
| 19:11.13 | Elrond | *g* |
| 19:11.13 | Morgret | It's easy to discover: just ask any GPS integrator whether they had to get DoD security clearance. After all, *every single military-precision device* has to be accounted for ... and that is impossible with commercial chips. |
| 19:11.49 | Elrond | Morgret - Yep. |
| 19:12.01 | SpeedEvil | No - it's not DoD cleared. |
| 19:12.10 | SpeedEvil | It's an export regulation. |
| 19:12.43 | SpeedEvil | The military devices are differnt. |
| 19:12.43 | koen|gprs | just don't manufacture in the US |
| 19:12.52 | Morgret | Also, the whole idea that this is a security issue is nutty, because any radio ham could extract a GPS chip and create a military weapon if it had security implications. You think terrorists aren't able to open up a phone? |
| 19:13.27 | SpeedEvil | Of course they are - the fact that it's nutty doesn't mean that they won't come and kick down your doors - especially after the large apple/... legal team |
| 19:13.34 | SpeedEvil | points them at it with glee. |
| 19:13.39 | Morgret | So think "trade secrecy" more than military conspiracies here. |
| 19:14.01 | SpeedEvil | The 'military' GPS recievers are different - they use a seperate code. |
| 19:14.08 | SpeedEvil | Which is _much_ more secret. |
| 19:14.21 | noidd | from morgs statement I brand all open source developers terrorists ;-P |
| 19:14.24 | SpeedEvil | For this, you do need to jump through all sorts of hoops. |
| 19:14.36 | koen|gprs | SpeedEvil: just use dpgs |
| 19:14.40 | SpeedEvil | IIRC 'Y' code. |
| 19:14.40 | koen|gprs | dgps* |
| 19:14.46 | noidd | Gotta go home - they just closed the office cos of 9 |
| 19:14.49 | Morgret | No doubt. Here we're merely hitting our heads against a traditional closed-source manufacturer in Infineon/GL, that's all. |
| 19:14.50 | noidd | "inclement weather" |
| 19:14.51 | SpeedEvil | DGPS doesn't help when they turn off the main GPS. |
| 19:14.52 | koen|gprs | 5milimeter precision |
| 19:15.05 | SpeedEvil | The civilian GPS that is. |
| 19:15.18 | SpeedEvil | It may partially be a closed source issue. |
| 19:15.45 | Morgret | Anyway, all this may be moot. Sean may decide to give us the docs ... or at least an operational subset of them. |
| 19:16.04 | SpeedEvil | It's export and import actually, on looking. |
| 19:16.09 | *** join/#openmoko r4kY (n=Ladder_@ws42107.studby.hig.no) |
| 19:16.20 | noidd | later ya'll |
| 19:16.25 | Morgret | cya |
| 19:16.37 | SpeedEvil | I don't know if just supplying binary/source with limits in the output routines would do. |
| 19:17.18 | parag0n | this isnt just another excuse for a delay is it |
| 19:17.19 | parag0n | :/ |
| 19:17.33 | mjr | what? |
| 19:17.45 | mjr | this gps discussion? no. |
| 19:18.00 | Elrond | parag0n - no. |
| 19:18.03 | Morgret | All we need is enough to feed into our open-source GPS daemon code ... I have no interest in anything except time position. I don't want to shoot down the damn satellites :P |
| 19:18.24 | Elrond | *G* |
| 19:18.26 | parag0n | i do! |
| 19:18.34 | Morgret | All other interface info they can keep to themselves. |
| 19:18.46 | Elrond | parag0n - The black copters are near you. ;o) |
| 19:20.03 | Matt_PI | just putviral marketing light baords up in Boston an you will be branded a Terrorist |
| 19:20.59 | Elrond | Hasn't ms tried this with opensource sometime in the past? |
| 19:23.29 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@9.80-202-160.nextgentel.com) |
| 19:29.19 | Morgret | I'm still hopeful. Even if there are problems with documenting our access to the GPS port like Mickey thought there might be, Sean had a vision and a dream for this project, a gadget that was open from the programming PoV. He may yet give us enough, even if Infineon/GL are bitchy about it. After all, we are developers ... and the docs are given to phone developers. |
| 19:30.12 | Elrond | *G* :-) |
| 19:30.30 | *** join/#openmoko marcususesthis (n=marcus@195.159.95.163) |
| 19:30.40 | marcususesthis | hi |
| 19:31.19 | marcususesthis | so like, is there going to be lots of software for openmoko? |
| 19:31.33 | *** join/#openmoko terrex (n=terrex@84-122-63-17.onocable.ono.com) |
| 19:31.51 | Morgret | There already is ... the vast majority of FOSS software should run :P |
| 19:32.08 | Morgret | Well maybe not majority ... but a ton of it. |
| 19:32.14 | Elrond | except for software needing a keyboard. ;) |
| 19:32.24 | Morgret | Hehehe |
| 19:32.27 | parag0n | ppracer? ;) |
| 19:32.32 | spikeb | hehe |
| 19:32.41 | Morgret | Elrond: external Bluetooth keyboards are fine. |
| 19:32.53 | spikeb | i am extremely interested in this more for the ultraportable computer aspect than the phone functions. |
| 19:32.58 | parag0n | can you get mini bluetooth keyboards? |
| 19:33.04 | marcususesthis | hmm |
| 19:33.14 | marcususesthis | I run a software site.. currently for the mac |
| 19:33.24 | marcususesthis | going to go multiplatform soon. |
| 19:33.29 | leventhal | parag0n: I found a couple bluetooth thumbboards for pdas |
| 19:33.31 | spikeb | cool marcellus |
| 19:33.37 | spikeb | er, marcususesthis |
| 19:33.39 | parag0n | http://www.proporta.com/F02/PPF02P05.php?t_id=1461&t_mode=des :D |
| 19:33.44 | marcususesthis | (iusethis.com) |
| 19:33.46 | Morgret | parag0n: I don't know. My Bt keyboard/mouse would only be mini for a giant :-) |
| 19:34.38 | leventhal | parag0n: that looks ideal, hope there's an easy way to clip it to the phone |
| 19:35.04 | Morgret | parag0n: that's excellent! |
| 19:35.10 | parag0n | theres one by a company called brando which looks goood too |
| 19:35.13 | Morgret | Exactly what I need, cheers man :P |
| 19:35.23 | Elrond | Morgret - Do you know any gps oriented software, that would work nicely? |
| 19:35.34 | parag0n | http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/peripherals/brando-mini-bluetooth-keyboard-slightly-larger-than-tiny-199700.php |
| 19:35.54 | parag0n | spikeb, use an nslu2 with a bluetooth adaptor |
| 19:35.57 | Morgret | Elrond: GPSdrive and navit should work out of the box, but only with the NMEA from agpsd. |
| 19:36.22 | spikeb | parag0n, cool |
| 19:36.52 | SpeedEvil | I've posted the question - if anyone with a clue cares to answer it... |
| 19:37.00 | *** join/#openmoko aloril2 (n=aloril@kaar72.airix.fi) |
| 19:37.03 | SpeedEvil | (on GPS to sci.geo.satellite-nav) |
| 19:37.10 | Morgret | Morgret: I've not tried them under OE though. It's actually been over a year single I played with the Slug. |
| 19:38.13 | parag0n | http://shop.brando.com.hk/minibluetoothkeyboard.php is $56, £30 ish, charges over usb |
| 19:38.18 | Elrond | Morgret talks to herself? ;) |
| 19:38.59 | Morgret | Elrond: often :-) In this case though, it just shows that there are race conditions in IRC client UIs :-) |
| 19:39.35 | Elrond | :) |
| 19:39.56 | Morgret | I find I get less disagreement when talking with myself anyway. But not always. |
| 19:41.27 | Morgret | Btw, I've thought of something to do with Neo v1 when I get the v2 model .... the v1 can be mounted on the Roomba! ;-) |
| 19:41.38 | spikeb | oh dear |
| 19:41.52 | Morgret | Luddite :-) |
| 19:42.30 | SpeedEvil | What sort of roof do you have Morgret ? |
| 19:42.47 | Sketch | so you can call your roomba and remote control it from anywhere? |
| 19:42.54 | SpeedEvil | If the GPS works well enough indoors, that could be interesting. |
| 19:42.59 | spikeb | roomba pacman |
| 19:43.27 | SpeedEvil | Though it's a pity that it's only 2m or so resolution - 10cm would be nice for that app. |
| 19:43.42 | Morgret | My current GPS (a good SIRF-III one) isn't accurate enough for the Roomba, I tried. |
| 19:43.59 | Morgret | So I might stick barcodes on the skirting .... |
| 19:44.08 | Sketch | http://kotaku.com/gaming/roomba/roomba-frogger-makes-me-sad-160868.php |
| 19:44.16 | spikeb | haha Sketch |
| 19:44.39 | SpeedEvil | Webcam + image recognition. |
| 19:44.42 | LittleIdiot | Morgret: barcodes with paintings that only reflect in the uv spectrum work very well ;) |
| 19:45.24 | SpeedEvil | Actually - a compass alone might work well enough. |
| 19:45.45 | Morgret | LittleIdiot: that's an idea. I wonder if there are any UV-relfective laser toners. |
| 19:46.50 | Morgret | I wasn't playing with my Bluetooth laser scanner for nothing ... ;-) |
| 19:47.10 | SpeedEvil | You don't need UV reflective laser toners. |
| 19:47.22 | SpeedEvil | You need ordinary toner, and UV reflective paper. |
| 19:47.28 | Morgret | SpeedEvil: you do for your idea if you print your barcodes. |
| 19:47.51 | Morgret | Ummm .... not sure it works that way around |
| 19:48.45 | Morgret | Are you suggesting barcode modules read the white, instead of the black? Doubt it ... |
| 19:48.45 | SpeedEvil | You print the toner over paper - where you print it, it doesn't reflect UV. |
| 19:48.46 | Morgret | Yeah, but that doesn't mean the scanner logic can cope. |
| 19:48.46 | SpeedEvil | Exactly the same result as if you have reflective toner, and black paper. |
| 19:48.55 | Morgret | Absolutely not |
| 19:48.56 | SpeedEvil | Well, of course you invert before printing. |
| 19:49.13 | Elrond | Morgret - I'm also looking for something to "mark" (nincluding averaging( my current pos nicely. :) |
| 19:49.19 | Morgret | You're mistaking what the human eye/brain can do with what a scanner module can do. |
| 19:49.24 | SpeedEvil | Err - no. |
| 19:49.57 | SpeedEvil | It's really hard to tell white paper and black ink from black ink and white paper, reversed. |
| 19:50.01 | SpeedEvil | err |
| 19:50.08 | LittleIdiot | Morgret: but test it on the material before and expose it to sunlight. some of them turn into slight yellow after some time... quite ugly to have yellow marks on the floor ;) |
| 19:50.10 | SpeedEvil | It's really hard to tell white paper and black ink from white ink and black paper, reversed. |
| 19:50.31 | Morgret | LOLz ... OK, if you invert before printing then I agree. Nice suggestion ;-) |
| 19:50.35 | SpeedEvil | The problem is that there is little UV in the environment, and silicon detectors suck a bit at UV. |
| 19:50.37 | *** join/#openmoko dilinger (n=dilinger@wireless-19-62.media.mit.edu) |
| 19:51.10 | SpeedEvil | Well, suck a lot. |
| 19:51.26 | *** join/#openmoko thedaniel (n=daniel@38.98.1.19) |
| 19:51.32 | SpeedEvil | I suspect that simple reteroreflectors at specific spots, and use the |
| 19:51.38 | SpeedEvil | GPS to disambiguate. |
| 19:51.52 | SpeedEvil | may work well. |
| 19:51.59 | Morgret | What was that word after "simple"? |
| 19:52.11 | SpeedEvil | They are like the bike reflectors. |
| 19:52.19 | SpeedEvil | They reflect light back the way it came. |
| 19:52.26 | Morgret | Gotcha, cheers |
| 19:52.34 | Morgret | Is that the right spelling? |
| 19:52.38 | SpeedEvil | So if you have a light near the camera, it looks several thousand times brighter than 'white. |
| 19:52.45 | SpeedEvil | retroreflector |
| 19:52.47 | SpeedEvil | probably |
| 19:52.52 | Morgret | tnx |
| 19:53.07 | SpeedEvil | You can also get it in tape form. |
| 19:53.18 | *** join/#openmoko MetaBookfoziS (n=sajt@3e70c809.adsl.enternet.hu) |
| 19:55.11 | *** join/#openmoko rwhitby (n=rwhitby@nslu2-linux/rwhitby) |
| 19:55.54 | Morgret | Hi Rod |
| 19:56.26 | Morgret | How's MokoSlug coming along? |
| 19:56.39 | *** join/#openmoko dneary (n=dneary@251.9.39-62.rev.gaoland.net) |
| 19:56.51 | SpeedEvil | Did you see those tiles? |
| 19:56.54 | SpeedEvil | oops - mischan |
| 19:57.39 | Morgret | SpeedEvil: bah, boring, pick a cybor channel next time ;-) |
| 19:58.09 | SpeedEvil | Did you see those tiles - under that naked chick? |
| 19:58.14 | SpeedEvil | Sigh. |
| 19:58.20 | SpeedEvil | Alas, I'm not that interesting. |
| 19:58.21 | Morgret | Hehe |
| 19:58.22 | parag0n | that';d be the worst cyber ever |
| 19:58.26 | spikeb | haha |
| 19:58.35 | parag0n | WE GO SHOPPOING FOR NEW TILES FOR THE BATHROOM |
| 19:58.45 | SpeedEvil | I have pics! |
| 19:58.55 | *** join/#openmoko dneary_ (n=dneary@251.9.39-62.rev.gaoland.net) |
| 19:58.59 | parag0n | i take off the top... of a box of tiles |
| 19:59.01 | *** join/#openmoko jouka (n=a@81-235-183-167-no20.tbcn.telia.com) |
| 19:59.04 | spikeb | haha parag0n |
| 19:59.35 | SpeedEvil | Currently redoing my house, adding insulation, ... all on a very, very tight budget. |
| 20:00.00 | Morgret | "Nice corvette, damn I wish that naked chick/hunk hadn't run across just then" |
| 20:00.22 | LittleIdiot | i have no house yet, but zillions of plans how to wire it ;) |
| 20:00.44 | parag0n | LittleIdiot, heh, i'm the same |
| 20:01.15 | parag0n | 'hmm, i'll need audio wiring to each room, with a computer tracking people's positions via PIR to control lights / music' |
| 20:01.36 | SpeedEvil | All sockets remotely switched. |
| 20:01.49 | SpeedEvil | With priority for load shedding on the UPS. |
| 20:01.55 | LittleIdiot | yep. but i try to do most stuff without a computer, but a microcontroller instead. |
| 20:02.20 | Morgret | LittleIdiot: I'm wired fairly OK, Cat5 a bit messy but it's there, gigabit on all main machines into 24-port gig switch, and KVM-over-Cat5 for total silence in the study and in the lounge for music. Not too shabby. |
| 20:02.21 | rwhitby | hi Morgret |
| 20:02.29 | LittleIdiot | canbus to every device or ir-communication... maybe zigbee if it gets cheaper one day |
| 20:02.44 | Morgret | Hi Rod. What time is it down there? |
| 20:02.54 | rwhitby | MokoSlug is talking dund bluetooth to a Treo650. Just waiting for the Neo to get pand working. |
| 20:02.58 | SpeedEvil | One-wire looks interesting - dallas. |
| 20:03.05 | rwhitby | it's 6:30am - I have young children :-) |
| 20:03.10 | Morgret | Ew :-( |
| 20:03.10 | LittleIdiot | Morgret: that type of wiring is implicit. i rather meant home automatition ;) |
| 20:03.17 | SpeedEvil | Sensors, switches, ... all on a one-wire multi-drop bus. |
| 20:03.21 | SpeedEvil | Self powered |
| 20:03.26 | Morgret | LittleIdiot: my home automation is crappy, all X10. |
| 20:03.28 | SpeedEvil | For $1-$2 per |
| 20:04.01 | LittleIdiot | x10 is nice, but the devices are too expensive and it's all too closed up |
| 20:04.15 | Morgret | SpeedEvil: I love 1-wire, have a ton of modules and sensors here ... none of which I've yet deployed. /sigh |
| 20:04.20 | parag0n | maybe a bluetooth / wifi GPS system for controlling all the plug sockets in the room i'm in |
| 20:04.29 | LittleIdiot | canbus is cheap and seems to do the job -- given you can solder ;) |
| 20:04.30 | parag0n | s/GPS/PDA/ |
| 20:04.31 | SpeedEvil | Actually wiring it up is the interesting bit. |
| 20:04.36 | Morgret | I've been wearing an iButton on my keychain for 10+ years. |
| 20:04.42 | Sketch | yeah, i've got X10 too...i have issues with lights randomly turning on by themselves on occasion |
| 20:04.44 | SpeedEvil | one-wire is if anything cheaper than canbus. |
| 20:04.45 | rwhitby | Morgret: the next challenge for MokoSlug is getting altboot to work, so that you don't need to keep everything in internal flash. |
| 20:05.02 | parag0n | pfft, i'll be using ethernet for everything |
| 20:05.10 | Sketch | wonder if a neighbor has X10 and is bleeding over into my house |
| 20:05.20 | noidd | or insteon |
| 20:05.22 | SpeedEvil | http://www.maxim-ic.com/1-Wire.cfm |
| 20:05.22 | noidd | btw. |
| 20:05.32 | noidd | -> * spikeb wonders if there's any such thing as a bluetooth wifi adaptor, and if any of them work under linux |
| 20:05.40 | rwhitby | koen|gprs: any I want a pony :-) |
| 20:05.41 | noidd | someone foudn one online a while ago |
| 20:05.45 | rwhitby | s/any/and/ |
| 20:05.54 | Sketch | unfortunately I can't seem to reproram one of the wall controllers i bought, so it's stuck on units A1-5 |
| 20:05.55 | noidd | failing that you should be able to make a simple one out of picotux |
| 20:06.01 | noidd | which are $20 in quantity |
| 20:06.08 | Morgret | rwhitby: I take it that Gujin only works for x86 and PC BIOS, yes? Because that's the kind of bootloader we need, an intelligent one that discovers bootable things by itself. |
| 20:06.19 | LittleIdiot | SpeedEvil: huh? i haven't seen cheap/reasonable priced controllers yet ;) |
| 20:06.32 | koen|gprs | Morgret: LAB does that |
| 20:06.40 | rwhitby | Morgret: eventually, mickeyl wants to get U-Boot to do that for the Neo. |
| 20:06.45 | koen|gprs | but at the cost of including a complete linux kernel |
| 20:07.02 | Morgret | koen|gprs + rwhitby: excellent |
| 20:07.46 | rwhitby | the current slugos turnup/pivot-root implementation is just a few shell scripts - so any replacement has to be as space-efficient as that. |
| 20:07.59 | LittleIdiot | ...and i'll have to power the devices anyway. sure, power supplies in every room would do, but that'd be too inefficient |
| 20:08.34 | Morgret | LittleIdiot: I have PoE modules for where power is hard to extend. |
| 20:08.45 | *** join/#openmoko cying (n=cying@adsl-75-18-222-151.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) |
| 20:10.01 | Morgret | PoE is quite cheap, dunno why it's not used more. |
| 20:10.06 | *** join/#openmoko xerom (n=jack@bl4-145-221.dsl.telepac.pt) |
| 20:10.47 | noidd | http://www.linuxdevices.com/files/misc/ssv_dilnet-pc_dnp5282.jpg |
| 20:10.57 | noidd | linux SBC in dip form |
| 20:11.03 | Morgret | http://www.dlink.com/products/?sec=0&pid=332 |
| 20:11.13 | LittleIdiot | hmm, poe would do as well ;) |
| 20:11.44 | cying | any openmoko team folks around? |
| 20:14.03 | noidd | thats getting close to my goal or linux in a wristwatch :-) |
| 20:14.28 | noidd | hey charles, how goes? |
| 20:14.30 | Morgret | noidd: coldfires have MMU now? |
| 20:14.39 | noidd | yup |
| 20:14.52 | Morgret | Blimey, which model? |
| 20:16.28 | *** join/#openmoko b3stbuddy (n=yourfrie@rrcs-24-227-237-183.sw.biz.rr.com) |
| 20:16.44 | Morgret | You sure they have MMUs? Was only uClinux last time I looked. |
| 20:17.41 | *** join/#openmoko PirateHead (n=piratehe@AC8199C5.ipt.aol.com) |
| 20:17.51 | noidd | it said in the new article that the addition of an MMU means that linux was soon to foolow |
| 20:17.59 | PirateHead | So... anybody got hardware yet? |
| 20:18.36 | Morgret | I found the models noidd: |
| 20:18.39 | Morgret | "Freescale's ColdFire line comprises 8-, 16-, and 32-bit processors. Significantly, the MCF547x and MCF548x ColdFire chips announced today are the first in the ColdFire architecture to be based on Freescale's new V4e core, which includes an on-chip MMU. " |
| 20:18.52 | Morgret | Is that what that module uses? |
| 20:20.59 | Morgret | Nah, that modules uses MCF5282, it's just a uClinux one. |
| 20:23.08 | Morgret | PirateHead: phase 0 hardware not shipping from Taiwan until 11th, we heard yesterday. |
| 20:23.33 | PirateHead | Okay. Can't wait to see the blog posts. |
| 20:24.45 | Morgret | Yeah, they'll be interesting. We need a chronicler to keep us all abreast of them ... I'm not going to run around 55 blogs :P |
| 20:25.03 | rwhitby | planet.openmoko.org |
| 20:26.05 | Morgret | Hey, 55 bloggers all posting to the same place is even worse ;-) |
| 20:27.15 | rwhitby | I doubt more than 20 will blog |
| 20:27.43 | Morgret | We'll need a search on there. |
| 20:28.30 | Morgret | rot13 it twice, it'll all become clear ;-) |
| 20:29.34 | parag0n | ebg13 fhpxf gubhtu :/ |
| 20:29.40 | *** join/#openmoko _Stranger (i=st@213.175.81.100) |
| 20:29.55 | _Stranger | Virtuall kozel |
| 20:30.37 | aloril2 | consider somebody porting BSD to Neo1973 and 2 binary situations: 1) binary user space agpsd daemon 2) binary kernel wifi module |
| 20:31.04 | *** part/#openmoko _Stranger (i=st@213.175.81.100) |
| 20:31.23 | *** join/#openmoko _rob (n=rob@ACB3E608.ipt.aol.com) |
| 20:33.42 | Morgret | Well after our discussions about government phone snooping, watching V for Vendetta last night was great. Today I think I'll watch Gattaca or Minority Report. |
| 20:34.52 | aloril2 | if there is linux binary ABI support, agpsd might even run unmodified on BSD? |
| 20:36.00 | mjr | one would presume so; it should use fairly base apis too |
| 20:36.27 | buz | http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/arstechnica/BAaf/~3/84991318/20070201-8753.html mhh that could possibly act as wifi gateway? |
| 20:36.59 | buz | if it really is open source |
| 20:37.48 | cying | noidd: it goes well, how about you? |
| 20:38.48 | mjr | buz, there's a thought... if. |
| 20:38.55 | buz | says in the article |
| 20:39.11 | buz | if its open source, there's probably linux in there |
| 20:39.16 | buz | if that's true, it should act as gateway |
| 20:39.20 | mjr | possible |
| 20:39.23 | buz | plus you get 20G of storage |
| 20:39.31 | mjr | yep, that'd be pretty alluring |
| 20:39.38 | mjr | have to keep an eye out for the details |
| 20:39.39 | buz | but i doubt it will be anything like reasonably priced |
| 20:39.51 | Morgret | If storage isn't in a 19" rack, I'm not interested. |
| 20:41.19 | koen|gprs | counter |
| 20:41.19 | aloril | a week, 3 days 09:18:53 (10.39 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.39 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.39 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 20:41.19 | Morgret | Anyway, it would be a liability. As soon as DAVE and HAL come together, stuff will stop working, and the rest of us will die. |
| 20:42.15 | buz | 19" stuff is way too noisy |
| 20:42.57 | Morgret | It can be as noisy as it wants ... 3 rooms and a floor away ;-) |
| 20:43.31 | Morgret | But there's no need it to be. I've got a 19" rack unit opened up ready to install some Slugs into it. |
| 20:43.47 | Morgret | No fan, no disk. |
| 20:44.33 | Morgret | And most pro' musician's gear is rackmount too, and they most certainly don't have noisy gear. |
| 20:45.03 | koen|gprs | Morgret: depends on which gear |
| 20:45.15 | koen|gprs | a lot of gear in the FOH is pretty noise |
| 20:45.27 | Morgret | koen|gprs: yup. I'm just saying that it's not inherent in rackmount. |
| 20:45.44 | koen|gprs | true |
| 20:47.54 | Morgret | Scratching deck? |
| 20:48.27 | koen|gprs | no, rackmounted amps |
| 20:48.50 | Morgret | Ah. Why do they have to go on top? |
| 20:48.57 | *** part/#openmoko zep_ (n=zep@next.boca.verio.net) |
| 20:48.58 | koen|gprs | because |
| 20:49.24 | koen|gprs | (I suspect because some desk-jockey doesn't know how heavy those are) |
| 20:49.46 | Morgret | Hehe |
| 20:52.26 | Morgret | My guitar/keyboards amp is only 50cm square, yet I can barely lift it. They sure make road gear solid. Or did, as it goes way back. |
| 20:53.21 | Morgret | Hmmm, that's an idea ... I wonder if the Neo would be any use as a MIDI controller over Bluetooth .... |
| 20:53.35 | koen|gprs | "rock solid" and "huge cooling fins" are different things :) |
| 20:53.56 | *** join/#openmoko _eric (i=eric@gorecki.5stops.com) |
| 20:54.05 | mjr | buz, I see you got to the list with your idea already :) |
| 20:57.45 | SpeedEvil | LittleIdiot: reasonable priced contrtollers, WRT what? |
| 21:00.38 | *** join/#openmoko jessta (n=jessta@203-214-97-210.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 21:02.00 | Morgret | Oh I see someone's mentioned using Synergy on Neo. That's actually my very first goal with the gadget too ... I've got a whole laptop dedicated to it atm, which is silly. |
| 21:02.07 | Morgret | On devel list. |
| 21:02.18 | Morgret | Anyone else using Syngery here? |
| 21:02.21 | koen|gprs | 'bitbake synergy' 'ipkg install synergy' |
| 21:02.30 | LittleIdiot | SpeedEvil: 1 wire controllers |
| 21:02.30 | Morgret | Super super :P |
| 21:02.42 | koen|gprs | ph34r my 1337 p0rt1ng sk177z |
| 21:02.42 | SpeedEvil | Oh - sorry, I was meaning home-cooked ones. |
| 21:03.01 | LittleIdiot | oh, ok ;) |
| 21:03.19 | Morgret | koen|gprs: j00 r 31337 |
| 21:06.59 | buz | Morgret: as for noise, try your average pizza box |
| 21:07.21 | buz | last time i had one on my desk for install it droves me nuts |
| 21:07.37 | Morgret | buz: you must be using the wrong pizza place, mine crunch a bit, but the main sound is "Mmmmm" |
| 21:08.15 | Morgret | counter |
| 21:08.16 | aloril | a week, 3 days 08:51:44 (10.37 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.37 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.37 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 21:08.18 | buz | well mine serve up websites |
| 21:08.29 | buz | also quite expensive |
| 21:08.33 | buz | 1000EUR pizzas |
| 21:08.39 | Morgret | If we don't get frickin phones soon, we're going to run out of jokes |
| 21:09.14 | buz | i'm waiting for the "water" proof silicone skin for the neo |
| 21:09.24 | buz | that should give ample room for jokes |
| 21:09.32 | Morgret | buz: it's the extra truffles and saffron topping that kills the wallet. |
| 21:09.35 | buz | hell make it latex |
| 21:09.53 | SpeedEvil | It's not hard to make a crystal clear silicone flexible cover for the neo. |
| 21:10.05 | buz | the one i'm thinking about is hard |
| 21:10.08 | SpeedEvil | The problem is crystal clear and flexible either scratches or gets gummy |
| 21:10.18 | *** join/#openmoko bkuhn (n=bkuhn@john-marshall.sflc.info) |
| 21:10.19 | buz | how do you get the neo in it if its really water proof |
| 21:10.42 | SpeedEvil | If it's hard, you can't activate the touchscreen. |
| 21:11.01 | buz | oh it better be hard |
| 21:11.01 | SpeedEvil | I have been pondering sapphire LCD covers, and SAW. |
| 21:11.01 | Morgret | How many Microsoft engineers does it take to reflash a Neo? |
| 21:12.20 | Stephmw | None? |
| 21:12.51 | buz | three, two of them to hold down ballmer from throwing chairs? |
| 21:12.53 | Morgret | Correct. They just redefine Neo as Oldio and claim a patent on it. |
| 21:13.43 | buz | no thats way to clever |
| 21:13.49 | buz | the product name must be much more stupid |
| 21:14.00 | Stephmw | the Noon! |
| 21:14.09 | buz | something like that yes |
| 21:14.17 | buz | Seen |
| 21:14.43 | *** part/#openmoko b3stbuddy (n=yourfrie@rrcs-24-227-237-183.sw.biz.rr.com) |
| 21:14.59 | Morgret | Well, it would be insightful if the question was how many does it take to screw in a lightbulb ... because unless you hold him down, there are no chairs to stand on. |
| 21:15.05 | *** join/#openmoko Marex (n=Marex@85.132.236.161) |
| 21:15.19 | buz | needs no engineers. |
| 21:15.30 | buz | only marketers to push darkness as the new "standard" |
| 21:16.08 | TRIsoft | having an office furniture shop in 2nd Microsoft Way must be a hell of a business :D |
| 21:16.14 | cbpage | lol |
| 21:16.14 | Morgret | And make redarkening the new replacement for reflashing. |
| 21:16.32 | Morgret | TRIsoft: hehe |
| 21:17.41 | Morgret | OK ... so if Steve Jobs were launching the Neo, what hype would be hear? |
| 21:19.04 | buz | i DONT wanna know |
| 21:19.19 | SpeedEvil | iNeo |
| 21:19.25 | Morgret | Hahahaha |
| 21:19.41 | SpeedEvil | That's the whole of apple marketing these days. |
| 21:19.45 | buz | i'm waiting for iLeet |
| 21:19.52 | SpeedEvil | 'Stick i on the front, and shovel it out the door' |
| 21:19.59 | buz | now thats a product i'd buy |
| 21:20.02 | Morgret | But instead of Cisco claiming trademark on it, it would be the Wochawski Brothers ... |
| 21:20.35 | buz | comes in shiny black coat or what |
| 21:20.47 | TRIsoft | as long as we don't have to see Sean at Fosdem jumping around, shouting "Developers" 79 times, everything is OK |
| 21:20.48 | Morgret | iTrinity? |
| 21:21.17 | buz | if he does, shoot a video of it ;) |
| 21:21.25 | TRIsoft | Definitely. You bet :D |
| 21:21.26 | koen|gprs | TRIsoft: or going 'OMG!!! WIFI!!!' |
| 21:21.33 | buz | LOL |
| 21:21.36 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@9.80-202-160.nextgentel.com) |
| 21:21.36 | *** join/#openmoko vetetix (n=vetetix@36.26-218-195.adsl.internet.lu) |
| 21:21.36 | koen|gprs | or worse, 'OMG!!! GNU!!!' |
| 21:21.38 | Morgret | Of course, that would be in iBullet time |
| 21:21.39 | buz | well that would be good no'? |
| 21:21.44 | TRIsoft | koen|gprs: What ? No Wifi in the Neo ???????? OMFG !!! |
| 21:21.44 | buz | OMG FPGA |
| 21:21.50 | mjr | v8! |
| 21:22.04 | Morgret | OMG PONIES |
| 21:22.05 | buz | v8 is so 1990s |
| 21:22.06 | Morgret | counter |
| 21:22.06 | aloril | a week, 3 days 08:37:53 (10.36 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.36 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.36 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 21:22.12 | buz | now we need hybrid engines |
| 21:23.00 | LittleIdiot | can we teach the bot to say something when somebody mentions "wifi" again? ;) |
| 21:23.04 | Morgret | Part pony and part FPGA? |
| 21:23.11 | buz | powered with ethanol (made with more fossil energy than burning the ethanol will give you) |
| 21:23.19 | buz | Morgret: EXACTLY |
| 21:23.26 | Morgret | Hehe |
| 21:23.29 | buz | so it will appeal to both geeks and girls |
| 21:23.38 | buz | mhh there's something wrong with that sentence |
| 21:23.41 | SpeedEvil | Can you power ponys with alcohol? |
| 21:23.52 | buz | could try beer |
| 21:24.03 | mjr | LittleIdiot, mmh, there's an idea, but buz here actually managed to use the word in a productive context a while back, so we have to take into account it's not all droning ;) |
| 21:24.28 | buz | only 99% of it |
| 21:24.34 | Morgret | buz: "Syntax error, illegal conjunction of two non-terminals in same sentence: 'geeks', 'girls' |
| 21:24.52 | buz | actually, with regards to girls, geeks are terminal |
| 21:24.58 | mjr | oh, wait, right |
| 21:25.14 | mjr | (excuse me, 3 hours sleep last night) |
| 21:25.53 | buz | around here it's actually the girl that reads scifi and comics |
| 21:25.53 | *** join/#openmoko libervisco (n=libervis@tuxhacker/libervis) |
| 21:26.34 | Morgret | Anyone ggot any technical topic? I think I've exhausted my comedy quota for today. |
| 21:28.00 | TRIsoft | Tech topic... OK. What do you suggest for the hackers lunchbox ? A can of spam or cookies ? |
| 21:28.14 | rwhitby | spaghetti code |
| 21:28.42 | TRIsoft | may abuse the pastafaris among us |
| 21:29.16 | LaF0rge | TRIsoft: for germans: "Kabelsalat ist gesund" |
| 21:29.52 | TRIsoft | LaF0rge: *lol* and hi Harald :-) |
| 21:30.06 | Morgret | rwhitby: wired, not Bluetooth? |
| 21:30.40 | TRIsoft | Ouch |
| 21:31.57 | *** join/#openmoko loufoque (n=lofoque@smj33-1-82-233-64-48.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 21:32.40 | Morgret | I haven't heard much discussion about the hackers lunchbox. Pity about the name though, I'd have called it Access Dock, if we want the Neo to not get ridiculed by the closed-source competition. |
| 21:32.50 | *** join/#openmoko matsch (n=matsch@85.16.18.72) |
| 21:33.56 | buz | mhh fic should bundle the sources for kitchensync and then go about how openmoko includes everything AND the kitchensync |
| 21:34.06 | Morgret | lol |
| 21:34.14 | buz | it woudl even by usefu |
| 21:34.50 | buz | night |
| 21:34.55 | Morgret | NN |
| 21:36.29 | *** join/#openmoko ericthefish (n=ivan@82-71-36-214.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) |
| 21:39.10 | *** join/#openmoko xerom (n=jack@81.193.131.223) |
| 21:40.59 | *** join/#openmoko Bipolar (n=bflong@000-181-838.area3.spcsdns.net) |
| 21:46.03 | *** join/#openmoko dneary__ (n=dneary@251.9.39-62.rev.gaoland.net) |
| 21:46.24 | *** join/#openmoko orospakr_ (n=orospakr@bas11-ottawa23-1128668517.dsl.bell.ca) |
| 21:49.37 | rwhitby | Morgret: that's the server side - your phone at home which can VoIP to the Neo |
| 21:57.09 | *** join/#openmoko billstevenson (n=billstev@c-71-58-61-130.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 21:59.08 | aloril2 | include 3D printer in "Hackers lunchbox" and some recipes: print new case, wifi chip, camera, v8, whateveris missing |
| 21:59.24 | *** part/#openmoko wabz (n=wabz@c211-30-4-5.artrmn1.nsw.optusnet.com.au) |
| 21:59.46 | *** join/#openmoko billstevenson (n=billstev@c-71-58-61-130.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 21:59.55 | TRIsoft | aloril2: You mean a replicator, not a 3d printer. |
| 22:04.20 | *** join/#openmoko zipola (n=zipola@zip.kortex.jyu.fi) |
| 22:04.39 | aloril2 | well, if it works without recipes then it would allow OMG copying of Neo1973 too |
| 22:05.01 | *** part/#openmoko billstevenson (n=billstev@c-71-58-61-130.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 22:05.37 | *** join/#openmoko stim_ (n=stim@203-206-0-185.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 22:06.18 | *** join/#openmoko prpplague (n=dave@12.190.41.146) |
| 22:09.17 | aloril2 | add recipes for pizza, etc. so that "Hackers lunchbox" can actually print food ;- |
| 22:09.39 | *** join/#openmoko Sum1 (n=Sum1@80.175.142.81) |
| 22:11.16 | Morgret | But can ponies be open-source? |
| 22:12.01 | Morgret | Well if they were pink, they'd go well with apple sauce. |
| 22:12.51 | Morgret | counter |
| 22:12.51 | aloril | a week, 3 days 07:47:08 (10.32 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.32 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.32 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 22:13.22 | aloril2 | 219 nicks yesterday (2007-02-01) record (EET) |
| 22:13.26 | mjr | not really; DNA is rather obfuscated |
| 22:13.30 | SpeedEvil | http://www.diamonex.com/products_windows.htm |
| 22:13.35 | SpeedEvil | + LCD = win. |
| 22:14.00 | SpeedEvil | (hard coated windows) |
| 22:14.11 | Morgret | mjr: in principle, you can nanoreplicate something whether it's obfuscated or not, just like you can copy a DVD without having cracked the encryption. |
| 22:14.51 | mjr | I founded the finnish transhumanist association; I know :] |
| 22:15.05 | mjr | but do you call that DVD "open" even if you can copy it |
| 22:15.20 | Morgret | mjr: that's nice, I was on the extropian and TH lists many years ago ;-) |
| 22:15.52 | Morgret | What's Max Moore and Natasha doing these days? |
| 22:16.21 | mjr | I don't really follow the intl. lists all that closely, but as far as I can tell, same ol' ;] |
| 22:16.42 | Morgret | How's the movement going in Finnland? |
| 22:17.09 | mjr | well, we had the Transvision conference last year, and we pulled it off decently |
| 22:18.01 | Morgret | mjr: to answer your question, no, I don't regard having access to components of a system as defining that system to be open. The reason is that a system is *generally* more than an aggregation of its parts. |
| 22:18.05 | mjr | I think we're also the most transhumanistic country per capita if you count by th association membership, sans perhaps some mini island nation I don't recall |
| 22:19.26 | Morgret | mjr: That's nice to hear. Sadly, I can't say the same about the UK. It's a nation of yobos, led by a self-centered egomaniacs within a police state. |
| 22:20.30 | mjr | yes well, I'm not saying the assholes on top here are any better, but you do seem to be further along into a police state at this point, yes |
| 22:20.44 | mjr | (incidentally, I'm running for parliament currently, but we'll see ;) |
| 22:21.08 | SpeedEvil | Hmm - $100 for 3"*2" coated glass replacement for barcode scanner window. |
| 22:21.09 | Morgret | There's no doubt about it, leading the world. Not exactly the kind of lead I'd have wanted. |
| 22:21.31 | SpeedEvil | That's not actually horrible - if it'd mean a scratchproof display. |
| 22:21.54 | Morgret | mjr: wow, you must have a lot of energy. All the best to you, it'll be very hard :-( |
| 22:22.10 | SpeedEvil | What party? |
| 22:22.19 | mjr | Well, I don't have that much. Left ;P |
| 22:23.47 | mjr | we're on the liberal party docket, which makes the job a bit harder as that's not in high demand here. More importantly however, I'm a part of a three-person group running as "machinators", which is a loose-knit information society activism group |
| 22:24.23 | mjr | it's in finnish, but to get a gander at our style, http://vaalimasinointi.org/ |
| 22:24.26 | SpeedEvil | Probably safe to say you won't be forming the next government then :) |
| 22:24.31 | *** join/#openmoko darmou (n=darmou@mail.planforlife.com.au) |
| 22:24.39 | Morgret | aloril2: welcome to the ranks of the minimally sane ;-) |
| 22:25.18 | mjr | SpeedEvil, what, you mean that this guy isn't good enough for government: http://rauhala.name/vaalit/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogsection&id=6&Itemid=37 |
| 22:25.19 | *** join/#openmoko disguy__147 (i=ariel@gateway/tor/x-e039bd5bd6ed8a8d) |
| 22:25.37 | mjr | (again finnish, but you get the idea from the images ;P ) |
| 22:25.54 | Stephmw | SpeedEvil: hey, the electorate need a change :) |
| 22:26.37 | stefan_schmidt | XorA|gone: As you're doing ASoC for business. Is there a good guide to port 2.4 OSS driver to ASoC? I need a start for porting the Motorola EZX driver. |
| 22:27.36 | Morgret | SpeedEvil: "Government" doesn't really have the same meaning for transhumanists as for the usual crowds. It's a wide grouping, from the ultra-libertarians who would disband government on winning an election, to those who would retain it but strictly hands-off people. Very different. |
| 22:28.05 | Morgret | No TH would want to be "in power", in the sense of current government. |
| 22:28.14 | mjr | aloril2, righto |
| 22:28.51 | SpeedEvil | True, but with real actual humans, you can't disband government without some means of enforcing the lack of government. |
| 22:29.02 | SpeedEvil | Otherwise new ones will arise. |
| 22:29.14 | Morgret | Personally, I think there's no chance of individual freedom until we can start to get off this planet, on an individual basis. In orbitals is fine, no need for planets. |
| 22:30.02 | Morgret | SpeedEvil: correct, it's not possible to do away with the current mess, because it's founded on resource scarcity and greed. |
| 22:30.22 | Morgret | And the main resource that is scare is space. |
| 22:30.30 | Morgret | scarce* |
| 22:31.37 | SpeedEvil | The earth is a wonderful resource, it can support quadrillions of people, if you grind it up finely enough. |
| 22:31.45 | Morgret | Hehe |
| 22:32.13 | mjr | heh |
| 22:32.23 | Morgret | It does have loads of room, but not on its surface. We don't have the tech for exploting its space down nor up yet though. |
| 22:33.01 | *** join/#openmoko philippe (n=fille@a91-153-17-113.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 22:35.05 | Morgret | But perhaps saying "space" doesn't convey the real problem: lack of *unclaimed space*. If you think you can bury down into the earth or found an undersea colony and get away from existing power structures, think again. There's only one way out of this crap, and that's beyond the atmosphere. |
| 22:36.03 | SpeedEvil | Not really - beyond national control might be a better way to put it. |
| 22:36.24 | SpeedEvil | It's very unlikely that initial space settlements will be 'free'. |
| 22:36.32 | Morgret | National control is like disk usage. It expands to fill all available space. |
| 22:37.27 | *** join/#openmoko newmedian (n=newmedia@TOROON63-1168100004.sdsl.bell.ca) |
| 22:37.51 | Morgret | SpeedEvil: yeah, they won't. The key is free travel, not tied down quarters in space. |
| 22:37.58 | mjr | in Egan's Distress there was a nationless gen-mod algae artificial island, which was rather nicely portrayed, what with all the hassling from outside governments also. But probably would be usurped. |
| 22:40.27 | Morgret | Nothing in the seas will be left alone, if it's perceived as "showing up" the old nation states. |
| 22:40.51 | SpeedEvil | Unless you have a large army, and nuclear missiles. |
| 22:41.31 | Morgret | A dangerous game, but yes, that could do it. |
| 22:42.15 | SpeedEvil | Sealand gets away with it by not being annoying enough, and not worth the bad PR. |
| 22:42.23 | Morgret | Yep |
| 22:42.45 | SpeedEvil | If an attack on it could be spun into good PR, and it gets annoying enough, bang. |
| 22:44.08 | Morgret | Nanoreplicated mobile submersibles (a swarm city) might be an answer. But thinking about that a little suggests that nanotech would be available to the population in the power blocks too ... in which case their establishments might not survive. |
| 22:44.18 | mjr | yeah, Egan justified the island with PR also; started out quick enough to have a sizable amount of people to be hassled, and then, you know, standard "they'll grow tired" underestimating until the project grows. About the inevitable invasions, well, that would be spoiling ;) |
| 22:44.30 | SpeedEvil | Nanotech is a horrible risk. |
| 22:44.34 | mjr | it is |
| 22:44.44 | *** part/#openmoko newmedian (n=newmedia@TOROON63-1168100004.sdsl.bell.ca) |
| 22:44.49 | mjr | we live in the age of horrible risks |
| 22:44.50 | SpeedEvil | You think nutters are scary now, when they can kill a few thousand... |
| 22:45.40 | SpeedEvil | It may be _marginally_ safe - if you can lock down every resource in reach with security nano first. |
| 22:45.41 | Morgret | It's not more a risk than anything else. It's an engineering problem, that's all. |
| 22:45.45 | SpeedEvil | Of course, that makes the worst current 'police states' look downright friendly. |
| 22:46.32 | mjr | yeah well, transparent society, Friendly AI watching out, there are survival strategies; but it'll be challenging |
| 22:46.48 | Morgret | SpeedEvil: while that's true, you have to remember the imbalance between police state and "citizen" (hahaha) right now. Molecular nanotech would be an equalizer. |
| 22:46.54 | *** join/#openmoko Jellegant (n=Administ@cpe-71-79-142-135.neo.res.rr.com) |
| 22:47.02 | SpeedEvil | Umm, no. |
| 22:47.22 | SpeedEvil | The state has thousands or millions of people working on their nano. |
| 22:47.25 | SpeedEvil | You have one. |
| 22:47.43 | SpeedEvil | And potentially, all the nano you have is locked down and you don't have the keys. |
| 22:47.59 | Morgret | SpeedEvil: Rubbish. The state has a few dozens of thousands. The community has hundreds of millions. |
| 22:48.31 | Morgret | SpeedEvil: by your logic, there would be no open-source now :p |
| 22:48.42 | SpeedEvil | Who none of them have access to the tools, which are secret, and any tampering rings alarm bells that gets the perpetrator reeducated. |
| 22:49.03 | SpeedEvil | Software at the moment can't kill everyone alive. |
| 22:49.13 | SpeedEvil | Nanotech, properly programmed, can. |
| 22:49.22 | Morgret | The tools of nanotech cannot be secret --- it's just chemistry + computing. |
| 22:49.31 | Morgret | And it's a kitchen sink tech. |
| 22:49.36 | *** join/#openmoko bkuhn (n=bkuhn@thurgood-marshall.sflc.info) |
| 22:49.38 | SpeedEvil | The fundamentals cannot be kept secret. |
| 22:49.51 | SpeedEvil | Access to nanotech devices can be keyed though. |
| 22:50.32 | Morgret | LOL, there are nanotech devices all around you. Every living thing is a nanomachine. It just doesn't use a very good engineering material. |
| 22:50.33 | sxpert | you can die from the fact that the nano-particles are nano particles, for instance, if you inhale them |
| 22:50.43 | Jellegant | quick question: where do I have to go to get an openmoko? |
| 22:50.47 | SpeedEvil | If you were at the moment living in a nanotech society, and all your posessions were made of nanomachines - it doesn't help. |
| 22:50.59 | SpeedEvil | Jellegant: wait a month or so, pay $350 |
| 22:51.07 | Morgret | sxpert: that's propaganda, try to see behind it. The environment is ***FULL*** of nanoscale particles. |
| 22:51.16 | SpeedEvil | Wait 7 months, pay an undisclosed amount for a release phone. |
| 22:51.16 | Jellegant | I got that so far -- but where do i need to go. |
| 22:51.55 | Jellegant | hmmmm..... |
| 22:52.01 | Jellegant | I can't wait. |
| 22:52.10 | Morgret | counter |
| 22:52.10 | aloril | a week, 3 days 07:07:49 (10.30 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.30 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.30 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 22:52.24 | mjr | Jellegant, it will be available as world-wide mail order |
| 22:52.26 | *** join/#openmoko Mortimus (n=mortimus@pool-71-250-177-228.nwrknj.east.verizon.net) |
| 22:52.30 | *** join/#openmoko billstevenson (n=billstev@c-71-58-61-130.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 22:52.33 | mjr | anyway, off to sleep now, have fun |
| 22:52.34 | Mortimus | counter |
| 22:52.35 | aloril | a week, 3 days 07:07:25 (10.30 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.30 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.30 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 22:52.40 | *** part/#openmoko billstevenson (n=billstev@c-71-58-61-130.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 22:52.41 | Morgret | NN mjr |
| 22:52.46 | Jellegant | at the site? |
| 22:52.51 | SpeedEvil | The exact order process hasn't been revealed yet. |
| 22:53.15 | Jellegant | I can't stand it! I want one now! |
| 22:53.23 | Mortimus | we all do |
| 22:53.24 | SpeedEvil | counter |
| 22:53.25 | aloril | a week, 3 days 07:06:35 (10.30 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.30 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.30 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 22:53.26 | Mortimus | relax |
| 22:53.27 | Morgret | Get in line :-) |
| 22:53.36 | mjr | Jellegant, hence the counter :] |
| 22:53.43 | SpeedEvil | Your only option at the moment, is to find where they are, who has them, and offer large sums. |
| 22:53.44 | Jellegant | if there were a "line" I would. |
| 22:53.46 | Mortimus | i love the counter |
| 22:53.54 | SpeedEvil | Or steal them. |
| 22:54.00 | *** join/#openmoko whitedrought (n=Jeff@70.98.72.130) |
| 22:54.04 | Morgret | Somebody overclock the counter please |
| 22:54.15 | Mortimus | you can't over clock time |
| 22:54.20 | Jellegant | I wonder if anybody has a similar item available. |
| 22:54.20 | Mortimus | at this moment |
| 22:54.28 | Mortimus | nope |
| 22:54.34 | Mortimus | nothing this open |
| 22:54.36 | Morgret | Sure you can, I'll to to my mate Lorentz |
| 22:54.54 | Jellegant | I've seen people hack the hp ipaqs. |
| 22:55.02 | Mortimus | then again why would you overclock time |
| 22:55.04 | mjr | just move at speeds near C, and the time will breeze you by |
| 22:55.05 | SpeedEvil | The ipaq is not open though. |
| 22:55.09 | Mortimus | you would miss out on life |
| 22:55.13 | Jellegant | the hardware isn't. |
| 22:55.19 | SpeedEvil | It's somewhat hacked to make some portions work. |
| 22:55.30 | *** join/#openmoko terrex (n=terrex@84-122-63-17.onocable.ono.com) |
| 22:55.36 | Mortimus | relativity theory |
| 22:56.17 | Jellegant | is there a commercially available 'nix gps, gsm and wifi phone out there now? |
| 22:56.35 | Jellegant | I mean... in the US? |
| 22:56.49 | Morgret | Nowhere. Neo is as close as it gets. |
| 22:56.49 | SpeedEvil | No. |
| 22:56.51 | Mortimus | nope, U.S. likes stagnation |
| 22:57.08 | whitedrought | not really... there's the greenphone... but that's an open java layer on top of linux... so no |
| 22:57.20 | SpeedEvil | Actually - doesn't the A1200 samsung tick most of those boxes? |
| 22:57.26 | Morgret | The US is *not* stagnated! It's got the greatest lawyer productivity in the world! |
| 22:57.28 | SpeedEvil | Although it is not usefully running linux. |
| 22:57.29 | Mortimus | and its the qt licence |
| 22:57.43 | Mortimus | lawyers == pricks |
| 22:57.44 | SpeedEvil | As in you can't run your own software on it. |
| 22:57.57 | Jellegant | grrr..... |
| 22:59.18 | Mortimus | i wish my entire family ran linux there would NEVER be a problem with their computers |
| 22:59.53 | Mortimus | supporting windows is a pain therefore there is a service industry from it |
| 23:00.10 | Jellegant | amen. |
| 23:00.49 | Mortimus | i can't wait for sources to come out |
| 23:00.57 | Mortimus | counter |
| 23:00.57 | aloril | a week, 3 days 06:59:02 (10.29 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.29 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.29 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 23:00.59 | SpeedEvil | Yes, you can. |
| 23:01.16 | Mortimus | your right |
| 23:01.58 | Mortimus | i wish they would release a flip phone version |
| 23:02.02 | Mortimus | that would be nice |
| 23:02.38 | SpeedEvil | Of the neo? |
| 23:03.07 | whitedrought | yeah, dual touch screens! |
| 23:03.39 | Mortimus | i wonder how that would work with a call? |
| 23:03.56 | SpeedEvil | I like the format of the Motorola http://www.engadget.com/2005/12/22/motorolas-leaked-a1200-smartphone/ |
| 23:04.04 | Mortimus | like my beard triggering the screen |
| 23:04.33 | SpeedEvil | I was trying to work out how you'd do a cheap plastic transparent flip, with working buttons on them. |
| 23:04.36 | Mortimus | can you call with it? |
| 23:05.04 | Mortimus | i looks like it can do everything BUT call |
| 23:05.17 | SpeedEvil | with what? |
| 23:05.23 | *** part/#openmoko bpl (n=blarsen@CPE001217be860c-CM00111ae01934.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 23:05.34 | Mortimus | the a1200 by moto |
| 23:06.28 | SpeedEvil | Yes, it can call. It's a phone. |
| 23:06.36 | SpeedEvil | http://www.gsmarena.com/motorola_a1200-1429.php |
| 23:07.36 | Mortimus | i wish more products have the ability to use OGG |
| 23:08.00 | *** join/#openmoko rwhitby (n=rwhitby@nslu2-linux/rwhitby) |
| 23:09.05 | *** join/#openmoko DukeOfURL (n=chatzill@vc7-1-39.dsl.netrack.net) |
| 23:10.30 | *** join/#openmoko newmedian (n=newmedia@TOROON63-1168100004.sdsl.bell.ca) |
| 23:16.54 | rwhitby | morning |
| 23:17.05 | Mortimus | its evening here |
| 23:17.18 | XorA|gone | ~ugt |
| 23:17.20 | apt | i guess ugt is Universial Greeting Time. Created in #mipslinux, it is a rule that states that whenever somebody enters an IRC channel it is always morning, and it is always late when the person leaves. The local time of any other people in the channel, including the greeter, is irrelevant. http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html |
| 23:17.23 | Mortimus | on the east coast of the us$a |
| 23:21.02 | *** join/#openmoko dilinger_ (n=dilinger@1cc-dhcp-133.media.mit.edu) |
| 23:21.50 | Mortimus | now i am enlighted |
| 23:22.55 | newmedian | (you have a sunny disposition?) ;) |
| 23:33.32 | *** join/#openmoko newmedian (n=newmedia@TOROON63-1168100004.sdsl.bell.ca) |
| 23:38.10 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@dsl093-060-111.pit1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 23:39.10 | *** join/#openmoko xerom (n=jack@bl4-130-194.dsl.telepac.pt) |
| 23:46.53 | *** part/#openmoko whitedrought (n=Jeff@70.98.72.130) |
| 23:51.04 | *** part/#openmoko Mortimus (n=mortimus@pool-71-250-177-228.nwrknj.east.verizon.net) |
| 23:57.33 | *** join/#openmoko dougt (n=chatzill@gw-public.office.mozilla.org) |
