| 00:06.16 | *** join/#openmoko [g2] (n=g2@nslu2-linux/g2) |
| 00:11.40 | rejon_office | that would be cool |
| 00:20.12 | *** join/#openmoko edit_lp2 (n=me@87-194-38-189.bethere.co.uk) |
| 00:20.23 | edit_lp2 | evening all |
| 00:25.20 | edit_lp2 | does anyone know when the source code will be released? |
| 00:26.43 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@dsl093-060-111.pit1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 00:28.54 | spikebik1 | edit |
| 00:28.56 | spikebik1 | counter |
| 00:28.56 | aloril | 1 week, 3 days 23:31:03 (10.98 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 3 days (38.98 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 1 week, 3 days (222.98 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 00:29.27 | edit_lp2 | ah thanks |
| 00:30.18 | edit_lp2 | ok so i'll wait for the preorder, i may have a mapping project i would be intresting on porting over |
| 00:31.44 | spikebik1 | oh? |
| 00:31.45 | spikebik1 | whcih one? |
| 00:31.49 | edit_lp2 | my own |
| 00:31.51 | spikebik1 | I'm pondering similar |
| 00:32.04 | spikebik1 | I really like maemo mapper on the nokia 770 |
| 00:32.08 | edit_lp2 | i was going to port it over to symbian |
| 00:32.32 | edit_lp2 | on to the 9000 series with gps module |
| 00:32.35 | spikebik1 | you are going to write a mapper from scratch? |
| 00:32.57 | edit_lp2 | not exactly, working with 2 devs |
| 00:33.03 | spikebik1 | I was pondering writing a java implementation that can use an external GPS on any cell phone |
| 00:33.15 | spikebik1 | or maybe a native one for the openmoko that can use the internal gps |
| 00:33.28 | *** join/#openmoko vetetix (n=vetetix@8.27-218-195.adsl.internet.lu) |
| 00:33.31 | edit_lp2 | ours is more aimed at automatiion |
| 00:34.07 | edit_lp2 | yeah we are very intresed in the onchip gps |
| 00:34.19 | spikebik1 | although to be honest I might still use the external |
| 00:34.28 | edit_lp2 | =) |
| 00:34.34 | *** join/#openmoko n (n=n@BSN-210-240-82.dial-up.dsl.siol.net) |
| 00:34.46 | spikebik1 | $60-$70 and I suspect dramatically better performance |
| 00:34.54 | edit_lp2 | we know any details of the internal gps as yet? |
| 00:35.04 | spikebik1 | yeah the chipset is mentioned |
| 00:35.24 | spikebik1 | it's a-gps |
| 00:35.32 | spikebik1 | forget the company/model. |
| 00:35.37 | spikebik1 | I^ |
| 00:35.38 | edit_lp2 | yep well thi is all new to us, only stumbled in here thanks to #lugradio |
| 00:35.50 | spikebik1 | cool |
| 00:35.56 | spikebik1 | yeah interesting project |
| 00:35.59 | edit_lp2 | but something we have been looking/waiting for for ages |
| 00:36.01 | spikebik1 | I'm trying to nurse my phone to last |
| 00:36.09 | edit_lp2 | ha |
| 00:36.10 | spikebik1 | or I'll just get a motorola linux phone |
| 00:36.22 | edit_lp2 | what are th restraints of getting preorder? |
| 00:36.33 | edit_lp2 | any idea's? |
| 00:36.45 | spikebik1 | in 38 days if you want it you can buy it |
| 00:36.57 | edit_lp2 | cool |
| 00:37.20 | spikebik1 | but they aren't promising a perfect user environment |
| 00:37.27 | edit_lp2 | im going to go hunt specs |
| 00:37.34 | edit_lp2 | well its a beta isnt it, |
| 00:37.36 | spikebik1 | for end users the cool stuff isn't promise till 7 months |
| 00:37.55 | edit_lp2 | a platform |
| 00:37.58 | edit_lp2 | aha |
| 00:38.07 | spikebik1 | so calls should work, but don't bet on auto synchronization with some arbtrary other app |
| 00:38.30 | edit_lp2 | thats what the community is for :-) |
| 00:38.35 | spikebik1 | right |
| 00:39.31 | edit_lp2 | are there any progect reps in chan? |
| 00:40.57 | edit_lp2 | ah cool, toolchain |
| 00:53.57 | cworth | edit_lp2: Is this a free software mapper you're talking about? |
| 00:54.16 | edit_lp2 | it will be yes |
| 00:54.43 | edit_lp2 | will/hope =) |
| 00:55.04 | thedaniel_ | speaking of mapping, i assume we've seen this GTK+ mapping soft designed for touchscreens? http://navit.sourceforge.net/ |
| 00:55.21 | edit_lp2 | nacit . yes |
| 00:55.25 | edit_lp2 | v' |
| 00:55.43 | thedaniel_ | i just saw it for the first time today, it also seems like a perfect fit to run on moko |
| 00:55.54 | edit_lp2 | =) |
| 00:56.07 | cworth | edit_lp2: I have a special place in my heart for mapping software, (after starting a mapping project and getting distracted for the next 4-5 years by writing a graphics library to support it). |
| 00:56.27 | edit_lp2 | heh |
| 00:56.43 | edit_lp2 | distractions ++ |
| 00:57.23 | edit_lp2 | im lucky i stumbled on to this chan =) |
| 00:58.41 | edit_lp2 | is there a roadmap for ver2? |
| 00:58.46 | cworth | edit_lp2: So I have to ask what you're using to draw stuff? |
| 00:59.26 | edit_lp2 | cworth, its not that kind of mapper,more trigger |
| 01:00.01 | edit_lp2 | i guess you could call it location triggering |
| 01:00.20 | cworth | edit_lp2: Ah, I see. |
| 01:02.28 | *** join/#openmoko disguy__147 (i=ariel@gateway/tor/x-a8fe533c7fa60086) |
| 01:02.38 | edit_lp2 | but there is no reason why it cannot be deployed with vector mapping, but i do not know much about the rendering out side of things |
| 01:08.17 | cworth | edit_lp2: Sure. And presumably one might want a graphical interface to manage or query the current triggering setups, right? |
| 01:08.43 | cworth | edit_lp2: Anyway, like I said, the rendering side is something I've been working on for the last few years with the cairo graphics library. |
| 01:09.35 | edit_lp2 | for what we are doing, it would not be needed , but would be a intresting fork |
| 01:16.36 | *** join/#openmoko aloril2 (n=aloril@kaar72.airix.fi) |
| 01:16.58 | *** join/#openmoko BryceL (n=root@nj-71-53-31-202.dhcp.embarqhsd.net) |
| 01:17.17 | BryceL | ello all |
| 01:17.23 | edit_lp2 | hi |
| 01:17.32 | BryceL | hello |
| 01:27.48 | BryceL | any devs in the house? |
| 01:30.11 | BryceL | anyone else watching the wootoff? |
| 01:32.28 | Clint | only to get angry that i've missed stuff |
| 01:37.34 | BryceL | Clint: lol i so know exactly how you feel |
| 01:37.54 | BryceL | Clint: you don't happen to be the same clint from Software for Starving Students eh? |
| 01:38.09 | Clint | not that i know of |
| 01:38.29 | BryceL | cool figured i'd check. damn i just decided i wanted one of those damn sets of speakers |
| 01:46.31 | *** join/#openmoko disguy__147 (i=ariel@gateway/tor/x-671ee6fec40731ef) |
| 01:47.08 | *** part/#openmoko n (n=n@BSN-210-240-82.dial-up.dsl.siol.net) |
| 01:49.57 | *** join/#openmoko disguy__147 (i=ariel@gateway/tor/x-01287190a1f72f0a) |
| 01:54.47 | *** join/#openmoko greentux_ (n=lemke@Ycb92.y.pppool.de) |
| 02:11.19 | *** join/#openmoko vetetux (n=vetetix@14.24-218-195.adsl.internet.lu) |
| 02:39.38 | *** join/#openmoko rwhitby (n=rwhitby@nslu2-linux/rwhitby) |
| 02:51.18 | *** join/#openmoko tomjoad4500 (n=tomjoad4@adsl-70-130-201-119.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net) |
| 03:01.21 | *** join/#openmoko amarsh04 (n=amarsh04@CPE-124-177-207-179.sa.bigpond.net.au) |
| 03:05.20 | *** join/#openmoko XVampireX (n=serge@unaffiliated/xvampirex) |
| 03:05.27 | XVampireX | whoa, this is pretty neat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRvtAAXTIlg |
| 03:11.48 | *** join/#openmoko Mortimus (n=mortimus@pool-71-250-177-228.nwrknj.east.verizon.net) |
| 03:11.51 | Mortimus | counter |
| 03:11.52 | aloril | 1 week, 3 days 20:48:08 (10.87 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 3 days (38.87 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 1 week, 3 days (222.87 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 03:14.25 | XVampireX | haha |
| 03:17.09 | *** join/#openmoko daxxar_ (i=daxxar@daxxar.com) |
| 03:17.55 | aloril | one reason I hope completely open phone takes over is that maybe then there will be top of line 3D card with driver that has GPL compatible sources; maybe openmoko based things could achieve it or maybe some of them will succumb to non freeness |
| 03:18.51 | Agrajag- | your reasoning there really makes no sense to me |
| 03:19.05 | Mortimus | the ending killed it |
| 03:21.01 | Mortimus | i think what he is trying to say that with the community involvement that is seen here may inspire companies to freely document and share source code to the community so that they can develop the best software |
| 03:23.17 | Mortimus | anyways isn't ATI releasing open source drivers |
| 03:23.24 | XVampireX | YEAH? |
| 03:23.27 | Mortimus | or did i read something incorrectly |
| 03:23.34 | Agrajag- | i think you read incorrectly.. |
| 03:23.43 | Mortimus | thats poo |
| 03:23.53 | aloril | I mean that eventually most mobile phones will get 3D accelerator |
| 03:23.55 | Agrajag- | projects like nouveau are more likely to succeed with that sort of thing anyway |
| 03:24.12 | aloril | and maybe eventually mobile computing might be major way we use computers in future |
| 03:24.31 | Mortimus | eh i like my beastly desktop |
| 03:24.57 | Mortimus | i just hate waiting for bug fixes in binary drivers |
| 03:25.08 | Mortimus | ex. nvidia drivers |
| 03:25.39 | *** join/#openmoko wabz (n=wabz@c211-30-4-5.artrmn1.nsw.optusnet.com.au) |
| 03:25.49 | Mortimus | thats why i hope nouveau gets to be better than nvidia drivers |
| 03:30.37 | *** join/#openmoko AcidBurn1 (i=AcidBurn@cpe-071-076-046-082.sc.res.rr.com) |
| 03:30.43 | AcidBurn1 | good evening |
| 03:31.44 | AcidBurn1 | ? |
| 03:31.59 | SuN | I don't know! |
| 03:32.06 | BryceL | Lol acid you just walked in on a "they'lre so going to open source the world" debate |
| 03:32.40 | *** join/#openmoko stryderjzw (n=stryderj@216.232.85.137) |
| 03:32.41 | SuN | My comment: "Not bloody likely, and definitely not any time soon" :) |
| 03:33.28 | PirateHead | I'm just hoping that the Wine and ReactOS projects move ahead and make the win32 API trivial. |
| 03:33.33 | PirateHead | Once that's not even a restriction, it will remove a lot of barriers to adoption. |
| 03:33.50 | SuN | Yeah, so people can run Office 2010 on it. |
| 03:33.53 | PirateHead | It might not help on mobiles much, but then again with improvements to miniturization, it might eventually apply in that arena as well. |
| 03:34.04 | BryceL | ReactOS and wine have a very very long way to go |
| 03:34.16 | BryceL | very good and the ReactOS guys are great but they've got a hell of alot of work |
| 03:34.24 | PirateHead | SuN: obviously not, but you know they're going to come out with Windows Live stuff for mobiles. |
| 03:34.38 | *** part/#openmoko ryanlerch (i=user@lilacold.lennox.com.au) |
| 03:34.48 | PirateHead | I know ReactOS has a long way to go, but the fact that they're doing it is great. |
| 03:35.00 | BryceL | and open source graphics drivers have a shot. Intel open sourced theirs and now they're working on an actual graphics card so there's a small shot |
| 03:35.25 | SuN | One advantage of the mobile world is that it's not really settled on one system yet. |
| 03:35.34 | BryceL | PirateHead: well that's for sure in 3 or 4 years i think it'll be xp like enough for your average user |
| 03:35.37 | SuN | Unlike say, the desktop. |
| 03:36.02 | SuN | Yeah, in 3 or 4 years when being Vista-like is already pretty dull. |
| 03:36.31 | BryceL | SuN: good point, i mean in the mobile world you have palm who's sadly dying, access who's failing, symbian who's living because nokia's a beast, motorola who's using linux to hell, windows mobile devices, and good old RIM |
| 03:37.30 | SuN | And a hell of a lot of other proprietary platforms that don't support much more than J2ME. |
| 03:37.30 | BryceL | SuN: yes but reactos by then will run most games |
| 03:37.31 | alphaone | And people are used to learning a new UI for their phone every two years |
| 03:37.31 | BryceL | alphaone: hell every new phone, even if it's the same manufacturer |
| 03:37.35 | alphaone | counter |
| 03:37.36 | aloril | 1 week, 3 days 20:22:24 (10.85 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 3 days (38.85 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 1 week, 3 days (222.85 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 03:37.50 | BryceL | still nto soon enough |
| 03:38.00 | BryceL | can't wait til the 11th |
| 03:38.10 | BryceL | i've already got 450 aside for the phone and lunchbox |
| 03:38.30 | alphaone | BryceL: But usually you get a new phone every two or so years |
| 03:39.42 | *** part/#openmoko evanpro (n=evanpro@pdpc/supporter/silver/evanpro) |
| 03:39.42 | BryceL | alphaone: very true, but alot of people break their phones yearly and go from their nice new phone to the cheapest on the block in this terrible cycle |
| 03:39.52 | BryceL | i'm thinking of a particular vixen next to me on her computer |
| 03:40.19 | alphaone | Heh |
| 03:40.43 | SuN | Women can't handle phones :) They're too delicate. |
| 03:40.47 | alphaone | BryceL: Make sure she doesn't read that :-) |
| 03:40.49 | SuN | The phones, I mean :D |
| 03:41.51 | BryceL | lol.... she's run over one, drowned another, and put a third through the wash (she's still on the third it just doens't have a backlit screen now) |
| 03:42.21 | SuN | My sister drops phones ALL the f'in' time. |
| 03:42.23 | SpeedEvil | There is a market for bulletproof phones. |
| 03:42.52 | SuN | I cherish mine as if it were my child. |
| 03:43.03 | SpeedEvil | Replace the LCD cover with a nice thick bit of sapphire, use SAW to do the touch-sensing, waterproof it, shockproof it, ... |
| 03:43.16 | Mortimus | speedevil : those phones musk look like sea monsters |
| 03:43.35 | SuN | Have had my E680 for 2 years now, and all that's wrong with it is declining battery capacity. |
| 03:43.37 | SpeedEvil | Not literally bulletproof - but capable of being kept in pocket with keys. |
| 03:43.43 | SuN | Barely a scratch. |
| 03:44.04 | Mortimus | i lose mine thats why its in new condition |
| 03:44.09 | SuN | Heh |
| 03:44.28 | alphaone | I have dropped mine quite often now, but then I got the cheapest phone available at that time |
| 03:44.37 | SuN | Hmpf |
| 03:44.38 | Mortimus | never found a use for my phone besides establishing credit |
| 03:44.48 | SuN | I need to get me a Nokia N800 or something, I get bored when I poop! |
| 03:44.50 | alphaone | Since real organizer phones were way too expensive - even with contract |
| 03:44.56 | Mortimus | but that will change soon |
| 03:44.56 | BryceL | i have a treo... if you've ever owned one... you know that they're nothign but trouble |
| 03:45.19 | SuN | Well... just your comments alone have put me off from ever buying one :) |
| 03:45.20 | BryceL | i wish that the Fic ran on Verizon's network then i could use my existing plan |
| 03:45.34 | SuN | That's a really lame trick they pull in the US. |
| 03:45.40 | BryceL | SuN: ohh trust me do not under any circumstances if you want a good reliable phone buy one |
| 03:45.51 | Mortimus | you can cancel in march |
| 03:46.03 | Mortimus | due to the txt messaging hike in march |
| 03:46.25 | BryceL | Mortimus: heh.. yes that's going to be a bit of an argument to fight |
| 03:46.35 | SuN | Well for some reason all the Treo's always had something wrong with them hardware wise... when they finally upgraded the CPU from that 33MHz dragonball and added wifi, they put this stupid huge antenna on it :/ |
| 03:46.37 | BryceL | but i've got it all planned |
| 03:47.09 | BryceL | SuN: lol yes... ahh the treo *contemplates dropkicking it* |
| 03:47.40 | BryceL | Mortimus: i've got my argument all planned "you've nearly doubled the cost! That's a clear monetary problem!" |
| 03:48.21 | SuN | I have high expectations of Openmoko on my E680... hardware wise it's a pretty neat phone. |
| 03:48.25 | BryceL | any of you done any building with the open embeded env yet? |
| 03:48.30 | SuN | I've waited 2 years for this. |
| 03:48.36 | SuN | Hm I've done some stuff for my Zaurus. |
| 03:48.47 | BryceL | you don't need special tools too flash the e680? |
| 03:48.51 | Mortimus | BryceL : it would cost me an extra 50 cents which i can put to buying a juice box |
| 03:49.07 | BryceL | Mortimus: Lmao i can cite the cost of sips at the local shop rite! |
| 03:49.14 | SuN | Well.. yes and no. |
| 03:49.34 | BryceL | SuN: details? |
| 03:50.05 | SuN | I've updated its firmware (with Motorola images) with Motorola's software, which is legally questionable, since Motorola never formally released that software, it's only available to service centers and partners, I think. |
| 03:50.21 | Mortimus | BryceL : the only thing that kept me from setting up a qemu environment is that it need gcc 3.x i have gcc 4.11 |
| 03:50.23 | SuN | BUT some guys found ways to flash from within Linux. |
| 03:50.29 | SuN | On the phone, that is. |
| 03:51.13 | AcidBurn1 | any tools for Nexetl i930? |
| 03:51.18 | BryceL | SuN: makes sense i guess if you can force a terminal you can explore and run their updater i'd presume, just drop in your own binary |
| 03:51.39 | BryceL | Mortimus: can't you just install the compat package? what distro you use? |
| 03:51.55 | Mortimus | BryceL : gentoo |
| 03:53.12 | Mortimus | BryceL : That would mean emerging gcc and associated tools meaning at least 1 hour of compile time (higher power usage) |
| 03:53.16 | alphaone | SuN: How is flashing from inside Linux achieved? |
| 03:53.42 | BryceL | Mortimus: can't you emerge kernel build tools and have that ocver it |
| 03:53.48 | *** part/#openmoko wabz (n=wabz@c211-30-4-5.artrmn1.nsw.optusnet.com.au) |
| 03:53.49 | AcidBurn1 | Sun can I put openmoko on my Nextel i930? or my i836? |
| 03:54.35 | Mortimus | 4 hours 54 minutes 27.458 seconds to compile openoffice |
| 03:54.53 | BryceL | Mortimus: ouch... that's aloong time |
| 03:55.09 | BryceL | Mortimus: ooo always fails builds on me it's frustrating |
| 03:55.24 | *** join/#openmoko cyphase (n=cyphase@c-71-202-49-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 03:55.31 | alphaone | Mortimus: openoffice and firefox are the worst packages in gentoo :-) |
| 03:55.39 | BryceL | ok all of you go to www.woot.com make accounts and buy three of the current item... please!!! |
| 03:55.47 | alphaone | From compile time |
| 03:56.18 | Mortimus | BryceL : never did on me X86_64 (although dbus 102 broke a WHOLE lot of things) |
| 03:56.29 | AcidBurn1 | Mortimus... |
| 03:57.03 | BryceL | i run gentoo at work and run abiword and dillo |
| 03:58.03 | BryceL | no ooo or firefox |
| 03:58.33 | BryceL | i only have to use the box to write up quick docs and rebuild our pxe server kernel |
| 03:58.46 | Mortimus | BryceL :what desktop? |
| 03:58.52 | BryceL | fwvm95 |
| 03:59.08 | BryceL | wating for E17 |
| 03:59.38 | BryceL | which i'm going to try to port to open moko |
| 03:59.43 | Mortimus | I run gnome on my computer and XFCE on lighter machines |
| 03:59.55 | BryceL | probabably never will succeed but it'll be a nice side project |
| 04:00.14 | *** join/#openmoko gambler (n=orion@203-206-86-98.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 04:00.31 | BryceL | Mortimus: i run Gnome on all my > 900mhz boxes and E16 on the others |
| 04:01.29 | Mortimus | I think my parents would be confused with enlightenment desktop |
| 04:01.42 | BryceL | well that's not quite true, but it's a general rule, alot of the times i'll go into E if i'm just coding or doign terminal work |
| 04:02.24 | Agrajag- | "a lot" |
| 04:02.26 | BryceL | Mortimus: i know what you mean my mom's great because i just tell her to click icons and that's all she knows |
| 04:02.28 | SuN | Sorry, was away for a bit. |
| 04:02.32 | cbpage | raster was interested in ipaq coding and phones waybackwhen |
| 04:02.39 | cbpage | i wonder if he got on the list for a P1 phone |
| 04:02.54 | SuN | alphaone: there's a trick to get the kernel to enable writing on the flash memory. |
| 04:02.57 | BryceL | cbpage: dunno would be awesome though |
| 04:03.23 | cbpage | he was working on the ipaq with phones in mind, at least |
| 04:03.34 | AcidBurn1 | can anyone see what I am typing? |
| 04:03.37 | SuN | THose NExtels are Windows based? |
| 04:03.38 | gambler | so the neo has no up-down-left-right keypad even...thats strange. |
| 04:03.51 | Mortimus | affirmative acidburn |
| 04:03.54 | AcidBurn1 | lol sorry |
| 04:04.01 | BryceL | cbpage: he does great work, E scales amazingly, i mean evas on the Neo1973 could give incredible eyecandy for minimal performance hit |
| 04:04.06 | AcidBurn1 | Nextel i930 SmartPhone the 836 is JRE |
| 04:04.09 | cbpage | yeah :) |
| 04:04.26 | alphaone | SuN: Ah, okay. Would be nice to have an official way to flash a new kernel |
| 04:04.48 | BryceL | cbpage: you a big e guy? i don't normally find people who know or care about the project... which is kinda sad |
| 04:05.13 | SuN | Anything able to run Windows Mobile can potentially run Linux, the i930 looks capable... there's no way of knowing if everything onboard is supported though. |
| 04:05.27 | SuN | It |
| 04:05.36 | SuN | It's like poking around in the dark with a stick. |
| 04:06.50 | SuN | The i836 doesn't look like it will run Linux. |
| 04:07.34 | BryceL | aloril oh that sounds nice |
| 04:08.53 | *** part/#openmoko Mortimus (n=mortimus@pool-71-250-177-228.nwrknj.east.verizon.net) |
| 04:09.18 | gambler | does anyone know the type of touchscreen technology the neo1973 will have (resistive, capacitive, strain gauge...etc) |
| 04:09.45 | BryceL | aloril imagine on demand 3d graphics accell |
| 04:10.38 | aloril | gambler: IIRC, resistive |
| 04:12.00 | *** join/#openmoko thedaniel (n=daniel@netblock-68-183-179-95.dslextreme.com) |
| 04:12.39 | SpeedEvil | strain guage and SAW are a bit expensive on displays the size of the neos |
| 04:12.58 | SpeedEvil | resistive is really cheap on this size of display |
| 04:13.13 | AcidBurn1 | I have a treo 650.... can I mod it? |
| 04:13.47 | SuN | First one to reach a hundred gets Virginity Award! |
| 04:14.00 | AcidBurn1 | lol |
| 04:14.18 | *** join/#openmoko dilinger (n=dilinger@c-65-96-191-108.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 04:14.27 | PirateHead | Do my Glasses of Inexperience give me 1.5x points? |
| 04:14.31 | AcidBurn1 | where do I get started on the i930 or the treo 650? |
| 04:14.32 | BryceL | wow 7300gs 256mb for 50 bucks 5 shipping at woot.com |
| 04:15.08 | BryceL | AcidBurn1: the treo 650 boots but doesn't make calls |
| 04:15.20 | SuN | Naivety shields are not accepted! |
| 04:16.03 | BryceL | lol i would love to have someone give the Neo a iphone skin and get the gimmicks working... i'd die of laughter |
| 04:16.44 | BryceL | and now that everyone has that ringtone lol |
| 04:16.45 | AcidBurn1 | k... where do I get the software to load the 650? just curious to see what it looks like |
| 04:17.40 | BryceL | you dont' still use said 650 do you? |
| 04:19.29 | BryceL | AcidBurn1: http://www.madingley.org/treo-linux/pictures/ |
| 04:19.43 | BryceL | http://www.madingley.org/treo-linux/ |
| 04:20.44 | BryceL | AcidBurn1: i'm currently just googling |
| 04:20.57 | BryceL | AcidBurn1: i did it back about 5 months ago when i bricked my treo |
| 04:22.10 | BryceL | can't find the site.. appears to have gone under |
| 04:25.35 | AcidBurn1 | lol |
| 04:25.45 | AcidBurn1 | So what phones can I use? |
| 04:26.03 | AcidBurn1 | All I need to do is configure a phone / device to use for GPS communications |
| 04:32.21 | ozzloy | does the neo1973 have bluetooth? i don't see it in the prelim spec |
| 04:32.42 | LoRez | no, gen1 doesn't. |
| 04:33.56 | ozzloy | possibly gen2? |
| 04:34.02 | Agrajag- | err it does have bluetooth |
| 04:34.22 | ozzloy | what about wifi? |
| 04:34.31 | BryceL | Neo1973 has bluetooth no wifi |
| 04:34.42 | ozzloy | ... yes or no on the bluetooth? |
| 04:35.03 | Agrajag- | yes it does have bluetooth. |
| 04:35.10 | ozzloy | k |
| 04:35.31 | LoRez | hrm, ok. |
| 04:35.46 | ozzloy | thanks |
| 04:36.18 | AcidBurn1 | Where can I download openmoko? |
| 04:36.18 | BryceL | ozzloy: np |
| 04:36.24 | BryceL | AcidBurn1: can't yet |
| 04:39.04 | BryceL | AcidBurn1: 2007-02-11 |
| 04:39.15 | BryceL | feb 11th you can get it |
| 04:41.55 | AcidBurn1 | im here |
| 04:41.57 | AcidBurn1 | lol |
| 04:42.06 | AcidBurn1 | ah.. lmao |
| 04:42.11 | AcidBurn1 | so no one has it yet? |
| 04:43.03 | AcidBurn1 | I want to write an app for it... GPS App that sends to my server.... |
| 04:44.43 | BryceL | have yougot open embedded build env setup? |
| 04:45.06 | BryceL | checkout the wiki t has some info |
| 04:45.38 | BryceL | yu could get the backend code worked on till then |
| 04:48.51 | BryceL | ok guys i'm off. gonna try and compile Deeply Embedded Python in my OE environment. au revoir! |
| 05:08.05 | *** join/#openmoko Marex (n=Marex@85.132.236.161) |
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| 05:41.39 | Psi_ | be a nice addition for the 2nd neo version http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/01/31/0124237 |
| 05:42.27 | Psi_ | oh, my mistake, i though they were for inside the phone |
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| 06:00.28 | aloril | Psi_: well, you can use it with 1st gen neo ;-) |
| 06:02.33 | Psi_ | aloril, yeah, just isn't as cool now |
| 06:02.50 | Psi_ | a phone with built in 20GB is much better than some external hdd |
| 06:04.14 | Psi_ | its still a nice product, the letdown just spoiled it for me, thats all |
| 06:05.28 | xkr47 | overexpecting is a great way of avoiding to spend money |
| 06:06.20 | Psi_ | heh |
| 06:08.39 | aloril | still.. battery powered USB hub + battery powered USB disk -> 160GB is nice amount of space |
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| 07:36.40 | sureshkumar435 | hi |
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| 07:37.40 | aloril | hi sureshkumar435 |
| 07:37.49 | sureshkumar435 | hi aloril |
| 07:38.11 | sureshkumar435 | I need some info regarding the openmoko |
| 07:38.15 | sureshkumar435 | any idea? |
| 07:39.45 | sureshkumar435 | Hi aloril R U there? |
| 07:40.41 | sureshkumar435 | Hi anyone there? |
| 07:41.46 | sureshkumar435 | I need the information regarding the openmoko support for messaging (SMS or EMS or MMS) |
| 07:42.37 | sureshkumar435 | Hi Chanserv |
| 07:42.51 | sureshkumar435 | helloooooo, anyone there to discuss about openmoko |
| 07:43.08 | *** join/#openmoko mikesh (n=mikesh@x133.net.upc.cz) |
| 07:43.08 | mickeyl | libgsmd is going to get support for sending SMS. i heard EMS or MMS support is _very_ tough to implement so we probably skip that |
| 07:43.09 | moo_tang_clan | sureshkumar435: it will support sms |
| 07:43.11 | aloril | sureshkumar435: ask |
| 07:43.21 | sureshkumar435 | only SMS |
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| 07:43.52 | sureshkumar435 | ok |
| 07:44.19 | koen_ | guten morgen mickeyl! |
| 07:44.34 | aloril | mickeyl: I guess you mean for phase1 and not phase2? |
| 07:44.49 | sureshkumar435 | Can I find any document or web address saying the messaging support of OPENMOKO |
| 07:45.25 | *** join/#openmoko martinh (n=martinh@80.187.222.11) |
| 07:46.20 | mickeyl | koen_: morning. it's too early to call this a good morning, but what gives ;) |
| 07:46.46 | mickeyl | aloril: it may even be that MMS and EMS needs special support from the GSM chipset (which we don't have). LaF0rge can probably comment on that |
| 07:47.09 | mickeyl | worth asking on the mailing list anyway |
| 07:47.28 | aloril | ah, that hard, ouch |
| 07:47.53 | mickeyl | ya, i remember LaF0rge telling something about that |
| 07:47.58 | mickeyl | but i can't quite remember |
| 07:48.03 | sureshkumar435 | mickeyl, are you the openmoko developer? |
| 07:48.03 | *** join/#openmoko koljoman (n=nenni@rb4d109.net.upc.cz) |
| 07:48.24 | mickeyl | sureshkumar435: just a tiny contributor, yes |
| 07:48.55 | sureshkumar435 | also it would be nice of you if you can give me some mail ID or contact info of LaF0rge |
| 07:49.04 | mickeyl | just use the mailing list |
| 07:49.07 | mickeyl | community@openmoko.org |
| 07:49.12 | mickeyl | it will reach us all |
| 07:49.18 | mickeyl | or if it's development related |
| 07:49.23 | mickeyl | openmoko-devel@openmoko.org |
| 07:49.30 | sureshkumar435 | ok. Thanks for the info |
| 07:49.31 | mickeyl | s/openmoko.org/lists.openmoko.org/ |
| 07:49.33 | mickeyl | np |
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| 07:50.08 | sureshkumar435 | So when are you going to release this one? |
| 07:50.28 | mickeyl | mid-february goes the code online |
| 07:50.31 | mickeyl | mid-march the hardware |
| 07:51.48 | koen_ | see the links in the topic |
| 07:53.25 | sureshkumar435 | any info on the net regarding the specifications for the support of messaging (SMS, EMS or MMS)? |
| 07:54.11 | mickeyl | no, the messaging application is not yet written |
| 07:54.17 | aloril | counter |
| 07:54.18 | aloril | 1 week, 3 days 16:05:42 (10.67 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 3 days (38.67 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 1 week, 3 days (222.67 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 07:54.42 | sureshkumar435 | ok |
| 07:57.14 | sureshkumar435 | mickeyl, are you there? |
| 07:58.14 | sureshkumar435 | Sorry to ask you again, can you give me the mail IDS to whom I need to mail for the information regarding the messaging (SMS, EMS and MMS) support in OPENMOKO? |
| 07:58.36 | CM | sureshkumar435: Why so desperate? |
| 07:58.41 | sureshkumar435 | I would put a mail so that I can gather some info regarding this support? |
| 07:58.53 | sureshkumar435 | planning to explore that area |
| 07:58.58 | aloril | https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/ |
| 07:58.58 | CM | sureshkumar435: Patience, the phone isn't out yet :) |
| 07:59.22 | aloril | sureshkumar435: above link has links to community and development mailing lists |
| 07:59.27 | sureshkumar435 | I am planning to have a project in that |
| 07:59.30 | CM | sureshkumar435: Look at the topic, it has links to the mailinglists and an unofficial wiki |
| 08:01.44 | sureshkumar435 | I am unable to access them |
| 08:01.54 | sureshkumar435 | Shall I register for this |
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| 08:04.07 | CM | sureshkumar435: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/ |
| 08:04.16 | CM | There you have the archives. :) |
| 08:04.45 | aloril | sureshkumar435: and for devel archives: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-devel/ |
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| 08:12.24 | sureshkumar435 | ok guys thanks for the info |
| 08:12.54 | sureshkumar435 | Anyhow if you have any webaddress or specification documnet, kindly mail me at sureshkumar435@gmail.com |
| 08:13.27 | sureshkumar435 | bye for now and waiting for responses from you all |
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| 08:15.20 | CM | Some people always expect others to do all the work for them |
| 08:15.44 | mickeyl | *nod* |
| 08:15.54 | CM | And they seem to be more common in certain countries.. |
| 08:18.17 | koen_ | yes, why aren't you doing all the work for me? |
| 08:18.21 | koen_ | lazy bastards |
| 08:18.24 | koen_ | :p |
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| 08:37.29 | Stephmw | yo |
| 08:37.39 | aloril | hi Stephmw |
| 08:39.55 | koen_ | hey Stephmw |
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| 09:25.22 | aloril | sureshkumar435: have you looked at wikipedia SMS page? |
| 09:25.39 | sureshkumar435 | no, why? Any info there? |
| 09:25.47 | XorA | counter |
| 09:25.47 | aloril | 1 week, 3 days 14:34:12 (10.61 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 3 days (38.61 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 1 week, 3 days (222.61 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 09:26.09 | aloril | sureshkumar435: there seems to be links to docs about SMS, I haven't looked at those though |
| 09:27.35 | XorA | aaah SMS such a lovely set of specs, 03.40 11.11 11.14 |
| 09:28.05 | sureshkumar435 | hey XorA, where do I find these specs? |
| 09:28.14 | XorA | www.etsi.org |
| 09:29.00 | XorA | 03.48 for secure messaging |
| 09:31.17 | xorAxAx | ROT13? |
| 09:31.28 | sureshkumar435 | XorA, do you have any idea about the messaging (SMS, EMS or MMS) support in OPEMMOKO? |
| 09:31.32 | XorA | xorAxAx: DES and triple DES |
| 09:31.40 | xorAxAx | hehe |
| 09:32.04 | XorA | sureshkumar435: no, and as there seems to be no software for linux that does MMS I guess it might take a while in developing |
| 09:32.19 | sureshkumar435 | ok |
| 09:32.46 | XorA | but they have 8 months |
| 09:32.54 | sureshkumar435 | XorA: Anyhow, are you a developer of OPENMOKO? |
| 09:33.35 | XorA | sureshkumar435: do, but I do write the sound drivers for that platform |
| 09:34.15 | sureshkumar435 | XorA: Sorry I didnot understand that. |
| 09:34.39 | XorA | sureshkumar435: I dont code openmoko I code kernel stuff |
| 09:34.59 | sureshkumar435 | XorA: ok. Can you give me some info regarding the developer dealing with messaging? |
| 09:35.12 | pH5 | XorA: wow, that took a while to find http://pda.etsi.org/pda/queryform.asp on that site :) |
| 09:35.14 | hrw|work | sureshkumar435: XorA works on audio subsystem in neo1973 to be exact |
| 09:35.19 | XorA | sureshkumar435: Feb 11th it will all become clear |
| 09:35.19 | CM | sureshkumar435: All the info is availible on the net, I'm sure you know how to use google :) |
| 09:35.43 | XorA | pH5: my last company was a full member of ETSI so we had them on DVD |
| 09:35.55 | sureshkumar435 | hrw|work: who r u? are you also a developer? |
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| 09:36.12 | pH5 | lucky :) |
| 09:36.40 | hrw|work | sureshkumar435: I'm one of OpenEmbedded core developers. I'm also one of those 50 lucky bastards^Wdevelopers which will get neo1973 for free |
| 09:36.43 | XorA | pH5: I really should have remebered to take one home on my last day |
| 09:36.49 | aloril | sureshkumar435: less than 11 days you should be able to get source code to OpenMoko |
| 09:38.10 | CM | sureshkumar435: Feel free to write a summary of all info about sms and mms that you've manage to gather. No one will do your work for you, but feel free to contribute yours to the official wiki once it's open. :) |
| 09:38.31 | sureshkumar435 | Sure |
| 09:38.41 | XorA | mms is just a mime email |
| 09:38.54 | XorA | network sends you an sms to tell phone to pull the mms |
| 09:39.19 | CM | Doesn't sound all that complicated |
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| 09:39.36 | sureshkumar435 | hrw|work: do you have idea of messaging (SMS, EMS or MMS) support in Openmoko? |
| 09:39.58 | sureshkumar435 | CM: Ya it seems to be |
| 09:44.49 | hrw|work | sureshkumar435: from what I heard there is none at the moment |
| 09:45.16 | sureshkumar435 | you mean to say that there is noo support at all? |
| 09:46.12 | pH5 | I'd love to see an integrated client for SMS/EMS/MMS + POP/IMAP based on tinymail |
| 09:46.34 | XorA | pH5: you dah man |
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| 09:48.33 | pH5 | XorA: did lrg finish rc3 already? |
| 09:49.34 | dygituljunky | I'd like a mail/sms/mms/etc client that shows a combined view of inbox/outbox/sentbox/draftbox and threads the messages in that. I've used FirstClass (not OSS; firstclass.com) and I'm really used to the interface. |
| 09:49.37 | XorA | pH5: Im am just about to test on neo |
| 09:50.25 | hrw|work | XorA: neo mixer is less complicated then c7x0^Wwm8731 one? |
| 09:50.38 | XorA | hrw|work: nope, worse |
| 09:50.47 | XorA | hrw|work: worse than spitz as well |
| 09:51.16 | pH5 | XorA: does gsm <--> bt pcm go through the codec on neo? |
| 09:51.56 | XorA | pH5: I cant release hardware info |
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| 09:52.29 | pH5 | ah right, guess I'll have to wait and see for myself :) |
| 09:52.49 | sureshkumar435 | Hey guys, sorry to say this, I am unable to understand any of the above messages? |
| 09:53.08 | hrw|work | sureshkumar435: I do not know do you able or not. |
| 09:53.15 | CM | Hehe |
| 09:53.35 | sureshkumar435 | Anyhow, I need to confirm the messaging support in Openmoko along with some supporting document or link? |
| 09:53.57 | CM | sureshkumar435: We do not get what you want either. It seems like you talk another languge some times. |
| 09:54.00 | XorA | sureshkumar435: let me guess, you are not a developer and expect to just right in and code complex stuff like SMS :-) |
| 09:54.18 | fluffs | right, i've just sorted out hardware ecc correct code for the 2410 nand flash driver |
| 09:55.34 | sureshkumar435 | XorA: Yes, I am not a developer and I was planning to collect this info, so that I can plan for a project in this? Can anyone of you developers give me some info regarding this support? |
| 09:55.44 | aloril | sureshkumar435: I think its too early to answer your question, OpenMoko is under development |
| 09:56.17 | XorA | sureshkumar435: we have given you a ton of info, you dont seem to know enough about SMS to understand what we talk about |
| 09:56.21 | Stephmw | sureshkumar435: really the only way you can get more info is to contact FIC directly - especially if you're thinking of a commercial project |
| 09:57.12 | aloril | sureshkumar435: for some of what you want it seems answer is "not yet" but then at 2007-02-11 answer might be different and again at 2007-03-11 answer is probably different |
| 09:57.41 | aloril | and of course at 2007-09-11 again different ;-) |
| 09:57.47 | *** join/#openmoko lrg (n=liam@lumison.wolfsonmicro.com) |
| 09:57.49 | sureshkumar435 | XorA: Let me be clear, I am not asking for info regarding SMS? I am keen to get the suppotive information for openmoko? |
| 09:58.17 | sureshkumar435 | aloril: I understand that, but my collection of information is regarding the current status |
| 09:58.49 | sureshkumar435 | aloril: May be it can change everyday also |
| 09:58.54 | aloril | sureshkumar435: I think when you can get device 2007-03-11 it will support SMS, but maybe not EMS or MMS (but I'm guessing of course) |
| 09:59.47 | aloril | sureshkumar435: also I suspect sending SMS is probably going to be fairly easy from your own code |
| 09:59.56 | sureshkumar435 | aloril: I hope we can make it by 2007-02-11 after knowing the source code. what do you say? |
| 10:00.30 | aloril | sureshkumar435: I think you won't get much info before source code is released at 2007-02-11 |
| 10:00.57 | aloril | sureshkumar435: developers are under NDA |
| 10:01.03 | sureshkumar435 | aloril: yep, may be? anyhow, are you also a developer of Openmoko? |
| 10:01.24 | CM | sureshkumar435: Take a look at libgsm once the code is released |
| 10:01.27 | *** join/#openmoko who_stole_my_nic (n=me@87-194-38-189.bethere.co.uk) |
| 10:01.32 | aloril | sureshkumar435: well.. in a sense I'm, I have coded Linux programs |
| 10:01.45 | MDK | hrw|work: ping |
| 10:01.47 | sureshkumar435 | aloril: NDA ==> Non-disclosure Agreement |
| 10:01.56 | sureshkumar435 | aloril: ok |
| 10:02.01 | aloril | sureshkumar435: but if you mean OpenMoko specific things, then no, I'm waiting for source code release as is any other developer without NDA |
| 10:02.11 | sureshkumar435 | aloril: ok |
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| 10:32.08 | koljoman | what will be filesystem on openmoko? |
| 10:32.26 | *** join/#openmoko tg (i=tg@x-net.hu) |
| 10:32.54 | Elrond | koljoman - As I heard: jffs2. |
| 10:33.13 | hrw|work | MDK: pong |
| 10:34.41 | hrw|work | CM: libgsm is other thing |
| 10:35.14 | Elrond | libgsm1 - Shared libraries for GSM speech compressor |
| 10:36.02 | Elrond | (I know, that's another libgsm. But still there is a naming conflict.) |
| 10:36.24 | sureshkumar435 | Elrond: Can you be clear on the libgsm? |
| 10:36.41 | hrw|work | OT: can someone fix spelling? 'hunt for foxes' |
| 10:37.57 | Elrond | sureshkumar435 - openmoko's libgsm is for talking AT-commands to the gsm module. The normal libgsm is for the gsm-audio-codec. |
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| 10:38.42 | sureshkumar435 | Elrond: Thx for the explanation. |
| 10:38.45 | *** join/#openmoko rd_ (n=redragon@segfault.net) |
| 10:39.30 | Elrond | We probably need to resolve that erarlier or later. |
| 10:40.15 | sureshkumar435 | Elrond: Anyhow are you one of the developers of OpenMoko? |
| 10:41.01 | Elrond | sureshkumar435 - You mean one of the paid ones: No. |
| 10:41.30 | sureshkumar435 | Elrond: I mean the ones under NDA |
| 10:41.37 | CM | Elrond: Ah, thanks for clearing up that libgsm thing :) |
| 10:42.15 | Elrond | sureshkumar435 - tihi... No NDA here. :) |
| 10:42.48 | Elrond | CM - No problem. |
| 10:44.11 | sureshkumar435 | Elrond: Anyhow, I need to confirm the messaging support in Openmoko along with some supporting document or link? Any idea on this |
| 10:44.30 | CM | sureshkumar435: Wait a few weeks |
| 10:44.46 | Elrond | sureshkumar435 - What do you mean by "messaging support"? |
| 10:44.50 | CM | Of course there will be sms support, it's a phone |
| 10:45.11 | sureshkumar435 | Elrond: Support for SMS, EMS and MMS |
| 10:45.13 | CM | sureshkumar435: And what kind of "confirmation" is it that you're after? |
| 10:45.32 | Elrond | CM - Except, there's no text entry currently. ;o) |
| 10:45.56 | Elrond | (at least, that's, what I gathered. ;) ) |
| 10:46.22 | CM | (text input, sms, mms later maybe..) |
| 10:46.24 | sureshkumar435 | CM: I need to submit my primary information gathering to my Project guide |
| 10:46.50 | sureshkumar435 | So planning to collect any supportive document |
| 10:46.55 | CM | sureshkumar435: I see. Guess you can say that it's planned but not developed yet. About ems I don't know |
| 10:47.08 | Elrond | sureshkumar435 - You can expect the phone to work for calling your mom, when it is open for order. But for anything else, you have to wait at least 3 weeks. |
| 10:47.38 | Elrond | sureshkumar435 - See CM. |
| 10:47.49 | hrw|work | sureshkumar435: what is done and working we will now after 2007.02.11 |
| 10:48.08 | Elrond | Right. |
| 10:48.25 | sureshkumar435 | ok |
| 10:48.34 | hrw|work | sureshkumar435: then devs will start coding misc things for phone. 2007.03.11 more devs will buy phones so more code will be released |
| 10:48.38 | Elrond | hrw|work - BTW: Please use dashes ("-") if you use yyyy-mm-dd :-) |
| 10:48.59 | hrw|work | Elrond: it depend on locale settings etc.. I'm also used to 20070211 format |
| 10:49.16 | CM | Elrond: Is that the ISO standard or? |
| 10:49.22 | Elrond | CM - Yep. |
| 10:49.47 | Elrond | hrw|work - dashes make clear, that the order is Y,M,D. |
| 10:50.10 | CM | I never get the yyyy/dd/mm format.. |
| 10:50.27 | b_lindeijer | Actually in Netherlands we do dd-mm-yyyy, so with dashes. |
| 10:50.41 | CM | Or why so many countries swap the lowest two digits in number when you speak |
| 10:50.44 | Elrond | b_lindeijer - yuck... |
| 10:50.54 | b_lindeijer | Yeah, whatever. :P |
| 10:51.16 | Elrond | I hope, there is no locale doing YYYY-DD-MM ? |
| 10:51.28 | b_lindeijer | When you tell somebody a date, you say 28th of August, 2007, right? Well so that's what we write. :P |
| 10:51.48 | CM | 123 -> one hundred three and twenty in at least Germany and Denmark.. Where else? |
| 10:52.05 | Elrond | b_lindeijer - We (germans) write the same, just with dots. ;) |
| 10:52.27 | friedel | CM: Afrikaans too :-) |
| 10:52.29 | b_lindeijer | Elrond: Yeah I realized that. I've been living in Germany for a year now. :) |
| 10:52.38 | xorAxAx | counter |
| 10:52.38 | aloril | 1 week, 3 days 13:07:21 (10.55 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 3 days (38.55 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 1 week, 3 days (222.55 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 10:52.42 | Elrond | Anyway, I need to catch a bus. |
| 10:52.44 | b_lindeijer | CM: Also in Netherlands, but I think it's strange anyway. :) |
| 10:53.26 | CM | aloril: Nice addition with the days :) |
| 10:53.47 | aloril | CM: thanks |
| 10:54.06 | *** part/#openmoko xorAxAx (n=xorAxax@moinmoin/coreteam/alexander) |
| 10:54.33 | CM | Is that bitchx logout messages? |
| 11:02.16 | *** join/#openmoko buz (n=buz@80-218-148-33.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
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| 12:07.36 | MDK | hrw|work: I'm going to fosdem. Let's make sure we meet there |
| 12:08.01 | *** join/#openmoko koen____ (n=koen@vpn006065.vpn.utwente.nl) |
| 12:22.25 | hrw|work | MDK: I will be at OpenEmbedded booth |
| 12:22.55 | XorA | Murder Death Kill |
| 12:22.59 | XorA | :-D |
| 12:24.00 | CM | Suresh is waiting for express replies from the dev-list :) |
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| 12:35.53 | b_lindeijer | Ah FOSDEM, that'd be cool. I went there in 2005, but at the moment I would have to search hard for travel companions. |
| 12:36.06 | b_lindeijer | At least so far I don't have any open-source crazy friends here in Darmstadt, heh. |
| 12:36.47 | *** join/#openmoko ozamosi (n=ozamosi@cust.fiber-lan.vnet.lk.85.194.49.186.stunet.se) |
| 12:40.48 | *** join/#openmoko zween (n=zween@vpn-085.vpn.net.ed.ac.uk) |
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| 12:50.08 | MDK | hrw|work: ok. i don't think we/nokia are going to have a booth |
| 12:50.10 | MDK | prolly not |
| 12:51.06 | hrw|work | MDK: you work for nokia? |
| 12:58.50 | MDK | yes, osso |
| 12:59.05 | MDK | 770 & n800 stuff that is |
| 12:59.52 | hrw|work | I missed n770 devel program. or wrote bad letter then |
| 13:00.18 | jaebird | MDK: hi |
| 13:00.30 | CM | can the 770/800 share the wlan through bluetooth? |
| 13:01.10 | CM | Or vice versa, using the bluetooth for networking |
| 13:01.39 | jaebird | MDK: With the N800 is there any way / plan for a completely open SW stack? without the proprietary bits? |
| 13:01.41 | Stephmw | MDK: I was going to ask how you got onto IRC, but then saw you're not connecting from the corporate firewall ;) |
| 13:03.14 | aloril | counter |
| 13:03.14 | aloril | 1 week, 3 days 10:56:45 (10.46 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 3 days (38.46 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 1 week, 3 days (222.46 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 13:03.20 | aloril | less than 1.5 weeks now |
| 13:03.32 | hrw|work | aloril: shipping takes time... |
| 13:03.45 | aloril | hrw|work: hehe, I was counting to source code release |
| 13:06.19 | aloril | (dunno if it will be released exactly 2007-02-11T00:00:00 UTC though ;-) |
| 13:09.11 | *** join/#openmoko incinerator (n=sabine@82-41-24-164.cable.ubr04.edin.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 13:09.13 | CM | aloril: Count on Hawaian time, like with the press release.. ;) |
| 13:11.01 | aloril | CM: hehe and 23:59:59 too |
| 13:11.57 | Stephmw | XorA: I know you can't talk about the hardware... but did they finally agree to stick the V12 in it? |
| 13:12.09 | XorA | Stephmw: V12? |
| 13:12.39 | Stephmw | XorA: http://www.ultimatestupidity.com/pics/1/diesel/ |
| 13:13.16 | XorA | looks like that might take a bit more than a battery to turn over for the first time |
| 13:13.22 | Morgret | Oh boy, I just read back the overnight discussion with sureshkumar435. |
| 13:13.56 | jaebird | Morget: yeah amazing, isn't it |
| 13:14.02 | Morgret | Stunning |
| 13:14.43 | jaebird | What amazes me most is that people here were so polite :) |
| 13:15.01 | Morgret | But I think I got feel for the "project" he is working on. It sounded to me like he's a lawyer, and wanted to pin down an official developer, in order to start litigation over some SMS-related patent crap. |
| 13:15.07 | jaebird | "So you developer of OPENMOKO?" |
| 13:15.38 | jaebird | lol |
| 13:15.52 | Morgret | Yeah, exactly --- that insistence on contacting an official developer says "LAWYER" in capitals to me. |
| 13:16.05 | jaebird | then he cross posted on the lists! |
| 13:16.07 | Ycros | as if lawyers know how to IRC |
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| 13:17.31 | koljoman | Ycros: nice |
| 13:17.34 | koljoman | :) |
| 13:17.44 | Robot101 | I wish mine did |
| 13:18.05 | Morgret | Wouldn't surprise me if it was a lawyer from the LiMo Foundation, since they are making it an official requirement to keep GPL sources closed. |
| 13:18.12 | jaebird | my dog can IRC, and sometimes does...sorry for that btw |
| 13:18.20 | XorA | LiMo? |
| 13:18.28 | Morgret | The big 6 in mobile phones, excepting Nokia. |
| 13:18.37 | jaebird | Ugh...LiMo -- L is for looser |
| 13:18.39 | Morgret | Linux Mobile Foundation |
| 13:19.02 | Morgret | Totally clueless announcement they made recently. |
| 13:19.12 | jaebird | s/looser/loser/ |
| 13:19.35 | SpeedEvil | <PROTECTED> |
| 13:19.45 | Morgret | I've got a quote: |
| 13:19.46 | jaebird | They just don't _get_ it |
| 13:20.11 | Morgret | <PROTECTED> |
| 13:20.11 | Morgret | anasonic, Samsung, and Vodafone. The LiMo specification will be released under an open source license such as the GPL, but kernel a |
| 13:20.11 | Morgret | nd middleware will be released under the Foundation Public License. The FPL forbids source code distribution to non-members of the |
| 13:20.11 | Morgret | Foundation under any terms." |
| 13:20.33 | CM | That last sentence is brilliant... Morons |
| 13:20.37 | jaebird | kernel under FPL, that is a good one |
| 13:20.56 | nbd | someone should tell them to get off the drugs |
| 13:21.01 | jaebird | or share |
| 13:21.07 | stefan_schmidt | Wait and sue :) |
| 13:21.39 | jaebird | it is sad to see moto involved in this |
| 13:22.04 | jaebird | kinda reminds me of that other defunct linux organization with SCO...UnitedLinux |
| 13:22.08 | Morgret | I think we're going to get a lot of comedy from that quarter. I wonder if Linus could sue, since he has the trademark on the word "Linux". |
| 13:22.23 | stefan_schmidt | Elrond: You also need copyright on the code they use. meaning kernel code. |
| 13:22.40 | stefan_schmidt | It's a job for gpl-violations.org, again. |
| 13:22.45 | Morgret | Yep |
| 13:22.49 | Elrond | Yep. |
| 13:22.59 | jaebird | we need a superhero persona for gpl-violations |
| 13:23.00 | SpeedEvil | I suppose it's not impossible they could have reimplemented a kernel. |
| 13:23.06 | Morgret | Plus a job for Linus on the use of his trademark in their Foundation name. |
| 13:23.10 | Elrond | Didn't mickeyl have contacts to gpl-violations.org? |
| 13:23.15 | jaebird | "This is a job for gpl-violations guy!" |
| 13:23.24 | SpeedEvil | Unlikely, but with that sort of money. |
| 13:23.46 | stefan_schmidt | Elrond: LaF0rge is the the half of gpl-violations.org. Doing it alone for many years. |
| 13:24.04 | Elrond | stefan_schmidt - Ahh, right. :) |
| 13:24.08 | jaebird | they have been busy |
| 13:24.49 | stefan_schmidt | Elrond: The problem is that fighting with vendors cost development time. :( |
| 13:25.09 | Elrond | stefan_schmidt - Oh yeah. :-( |
| 13:25.38 | Elrond | Like pointlessly trying to cooperate with people, who do nearly the same. :-| |
| 13:25.41 | aloril | maybe I recall wrong, but some article talked about kernel being GPL and middleware being closed |
| 13:25.49 | Morgret | Perhaps we could get Groklaw interested in the LiMo Foundation. |
| 13:25.50 | aloril | maybe its just error in press release ;-) |
| 13:26.13 | jaebird | maybe the LiMo Foundation doesn't really exist |
| 13:26.23 | Morgret | aloril: yes indeed |
| 13:26.26 | jaebird | and they are trying to get FIC to go back to PC stuff |
| 13:26.40 | CM | Stephmw: Heavy engine btw, 7,600,000 nm torque and 108,920 hp |
| 13:26.41 | Elrond | jaebird - You mean, it's a hoax to distract us from real development? |
| 13:26.55 | jaebird | Elrond: exactly |
| 13:27.06 | jaebird | the mafia does it well |
| 13:27.07 | Stephmw | CM: it's a must-have |
| 13:27.17 | Morgret | Well, the first action of LiMo could have been to appoint lawyer sureshkumar435 and see what he can dig up ;-) |
| 13:27.31 | jaebird | Morgret: nice |
| 13:27.36 | Stephmw | what's the bot's name again? |
| 13:27.44 | jaebird | apt, botsnack |
| 13:27.44 | apt | jaebird: thanks |
| 13:27.52 | stefan_schmidt | Elrond: Which people you mean with doing the same? FSF? They cooperate. |
| 13:27.55 | Stephmw | jaebird: cheers |
| 13:28.27 | Elrond | stefan_schmidt - Nothing relevant to this channel. :) |
| 13:28.44 | stefan_schmidt | Elrond: :) |
| 13:28.49 | jaebird | this was a fun sidetrack tho |
| 13:29.25 | jaebird | conspiracy theories are fun :) |
| 13:29.25 | Elrond | Morgret - What's about sureshkumar435? |
| 13:29.49 | jaebird | night all... |
| 13:29.58 | jaebird | time for work |
| 13:30.48 | Morgret | Elrond: read back from about 0745 GMT to 1100 GMT -- sureshkumar435 was making the kind of annoying insistent remarks that only a lawyer would. |
| 13:31.27 | Elrond | Morgret - I just saw the final questions on sms stuff. |
| 13:32.29 | SpeedEvil | Lawyers can be programmers too! |
| 13:32.47 | CM | He kept insisting on talking to "a developer" that could provide information on "SMS EMS and MMS in OPENMOKO" for him, and he needed a confirmation |
| 13:32.50 | MDK | jaebird: things are changing in the correct directon afaik |
| 13:33.25 | Morgret | I'd have answered: "everyone is a developer of OpenMoko", and "the SMS functionality will be whatever the community puts into it", and "the date for stuff to appear is the date on which someone codes it". |
| 13:33.30 | Elrond | CM - Ahh, yeah. I ran away for food. ;) |
| 13:33.39 | *** join/#openmoko gl (n=gl@CPE-61-9-147-123.static.vic.bigpond.net.au) |
| 13:33.45 | CM | Elrond: I should have too ;) |
| 13:33.58 | Stephmw | Morgret: ahhh, but our way kept him asking and we got an email traiil out of it |
| 13:34.08 | Morgret | Stephmw: hehehe |
| 13:34.27 | Stephmw | Morgret: remember what the police says about nuisance callers... keep em talking so we can trace them |
| 13:34.38 | CM | I really find it hard to be polite and patient some times.. |
| 13:35.01 | CM | hrw|work: You're tireless on that btw, always polite and helpful. Kudos! :) |
| 13:35.11 | Morgret | Stephmw: well done ;-) |
| 13:35.27 | Stephmw | CM: I just step back when that happens |
| 13:35.40 | Morgret | SpeedEvil: yeah, they can, look at the RIAA |
| 13:35.46 | Elrond | CM - I have mostly given up on that. If I don't want to be polite, I go away. :-| |
| 13:35.54 | CM | Stephmw: Guess my problem is that I like to argue.. ;) |
| 13:36.23 | Elrond | "step back" is the polite version of "go away", right? :-) |
| 13:36.24 | Stephmw | CM: oh no you don't! |
| 13:36.34 | CM | :P |
| 13:36.38 | Stephmw | Elrond: just go afk for a cuppa tea |
| 13:36.58 | Stephmw | Elrond: that way you spread the angst amongst more people :) |
| 13:38.07 | Elrond | Stephmw - Yeah. I went for food at sureshkumar435 time. ;) |
| 13:38.19 | Morgret | aloril: In what? |
| 13:38.21 | aloril | ie.. price not too high, power draw enough low and still enough powerful to do stuff |
| 13:38.36 | aloril | Morgret: in phone |
| 13:38.45 | aloril | (for example v3 maybe?) |
| 13:38.58 | Elrond | aloril - I guess, it sounds cool, but wouldn't be used by many developers. |
| 13:39.13 | Elrond | Oh, v3.... let's say v4. ;) |
| 13:39.28 | *** join/#openmoko Rac0r (n=Rac0r@p54AA79F5.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 13:39.29 | *** join/#openmoko Rac0r_ (n=Rac0r@p54AA79F5.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 13:39.31 | SpeedEvil | FPGAs vary in power use. |
| 13:39.48 | SpeedEvil | However, they are very rarely the most power efficient way of doing things. |
| 13:40.07 | Elrond | Right. They're just insanely fast. ;) |
| 13:40.07 | SpeedEvil | They are _not_ a magic bullet by any means, even being 'programmable'. |
| 13:40.51 | Morgret | aloril: well low-end ones cost nothing, but high-end ones like Xilinx's are going to be too costly for a phone. The functionality really depends on one's imagination. |
| 13:40.51 | Stephmw | stick the fpga with a battery into a usb dongle |
| 13:40.51 | aloril | Elrond: many stuff that FPGA could do better than main CPU are done even better with special ASIC (wifi, decdoding video, etc..) |
| 13:40.58 | aloril | Morgret: I suspect high end ones draw too much power too |
| 13:41.06 | Stephmw | Morgret: urgh. that brought back some bad memories... Xilinx and their VSDL (iirc) at Uni |
| 13:41.07 | Morgret | aloril: yep |
| 13:41.24 | SpeedEvil | They are generally suited to much larger tasks than phone, where the power can be compared with desktop type processors. |
| 13:41.31 | SpeedEvil | They don't really scale down well. |
| 13:41.50 | SpeedEvil | Power/compute unit rather, in special tasks. |
| 13:42.01 | aloril | Stephmw: umm.. yes that is option, though USB speed is a bit low in v1 (though if no much communication needed, then could do) |
| 13:42.06 | *** join/#openmoko dyrne (i=pike@server1.freeshells.ch) |
| 13:42.25 | Morgret | Btw, I think I remember reading that the micro-SD was underneath the battery, and not accessible from outside. Is that correct? |
| 13:42.29 | SpeedEvil | yes |
| 13:42.56 | SpeedEvil | It's probably possible to make an extender card, that has a plug on one end, a printed wire coming round the battery and a socket on the back. |
| 13:42.59 | aloril | SpeedEvil: OK, so on desktop there are various tasks where they can outperform cheaply in some tasks generic CPUs (like 10x or more) |
| 13:43.01 | SpeedEvil | Or a replacement battery. |
| 13:43.02 | Elrond | But it's accessible after opening and removing the battery. |
| 13:43.28 | Morgret | K. A bit limiting, but we'll live with it. There's always USB and Bt for transferring data in. |
| 13:43.41 | SpeedEvil | aloril: Basically, yes. They get disproportionately better as the number of gates rises. |
| 13:43.53 | SpeedEvil | And GPRS |
| 13:44.06 | Stephmw | Morgret: that setup simplifies the software a little as well... no live mounting/unmounting by users |
| 13:44.09 | aloril | (based on this hour long video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4969729965240981475 ) |
| 13:44.40 | Morgret | Stephmw: aye, although I'm sure that wasn't the deciding factor. It's a tight place inside a phone. |
| 13:45.02 | aloril | SpeedEvil: OK, so probably doesn't make sense on v1-v3 |
| 13:45.04 | SpeedEvil | I have not looked at FPGAs in the last couple of years though, things may have changed - I suspect not. |
| 13:45.57 | SpeedEvil | I would expect an extender cable round to the back of the battery would work just fine though. Possibly for SDIO cards too. |
| 13:46.24 | SpeedEvil | However, that lets you add wireless at the cost of no storage. |
| 13:47.13 | CM | I remember reading some article a few years ago about ati emulating their next gen gpus in some huge fpga. |
| 13:47.40 | CM | It only ran in 5kHz or so, but they ran quake on it :) |
| 13:47.57 | SpeedEvil | It's faster than software simulation. |
| 13:47.58 | Stephmw | nutters :) |
| 13:48.01 | Stephmw | and true geeks. |
| 13:48.03 | SpeedEvil | Which is your other alternative. |
| 13:48.05 | SpeedEvil | Not really. |
| 13:48.17 | Morgret | Have any radio amateurs expressed interest in Neo/OM, to turn it into a non-GSM ham handheld? |
| 13:48.20 | SpeedEvil | Do you really want to find glitches in built silicon? |
| 13:48.46 | Stephmw | SpeedEvil: SOP for Intel it seems |
| 13:48.47 | SpeedEvil | Where it costs many hundreds of thousands to fix? |
| 13:48.47 | hadara | opengraphics project is building their GPU on top of large FPGA too |
| 13:49.10 | SpeedEvil | Finding glitches like F00F is _hard_. |
| 13:49.23 | SpeedEvil | You simply can't simulate enough to get it. |
| 13:49.42 | SpeedEvil | Even with an actual processor, it's not possible in some cases. |
| 13:49.48 | silwol | Usually it's no problem to run a modern FPGA at about 50MHz |
| 13:50.33 | SpeedEvil | But, if you're having to use multiples, clock speeds will be killed by having to bring internal busses through pins. |
| 13:51.19 | Morgret | http://wiki.duskglow.com/tiki-index.php?page=Open-Graphics |
| 13:51.23 | SpeedEvil | Morgret: why would any want to? |
| 13:51.23 | Morgret | (opengraphics) |
| 13:51.27 | SpeedEvil | (ham) |
| 13:51.41 | SpeedEvil | Neglecting the fact that the GSM radio can't do that. |
| 13:51.50 | fluffs | you could use an fpga, but most are designed for speed and not power consumption |
| 13:52.08 | Morgret | SpeedEvil: to save reinventing the open-PDA half of it a ham handheld. |
| 13:52.36 | *** part/#openmoko friedel (n=fwolff@dsl-242-233-175.telkomadsl.co.za) |
| 13:53.16 | Morgret | SpeedEvil: after all, radio amateurs can do a lot more original stuff with the airwaves than we can over GSM. Doing that with a fully programmable Linux handheld would rock. |
| 13:53.31 | silwol | i don't know if there is *any* fpga that does not consume a whole lot too much power for a portable device |
| 13:53.43 | SpeedEvil | There are limits on what you can send as a ham though. |
| 13:54.01 | SpeedEvil | Not to mention limited bandwidths. |
| 13:54.15 | SpeedEvil | Most places prohibit mobile data, and code other than voice. |
| 13:54.41 | SpeedEvil | many anyway |
| 13:54.59 | XVampireX | Can speex codec be used in a mobile phone? |
| 13:55.25 | SpeedEvil | speex? |
| 13:55.34 | Morgret | SpeedEvil: sure, but there is also a lot more flexibility in general. You have direct access to channel selection for example, which you don't in GSM, and you can scan across a ton of repeaters and bands etc. The ham scanners are really powerful (closed) devices, and it could be done in OM. |
| 13:55.40 | SpeedEvil | Oh - sure, over GPRS |
| 13:55.52 | SpeedEvil | Hmm. |
| 13:55.59 | *** join/#openmoko Zer0Her0_ (n=Z@17.232.17.195) |
| 13:56.17 | SpeedEvil | The easy way I suspect is a USB radio. |
| 13:56.24 | SpeedEvil | Or bluetooth. |
| 13:57.03 | *** join/#openmoko [g2] (n=g2@nslu2-linux/g2) |
| 13:57.52 | SpeedEvil | XVampireX: we don't have (on the neo) complete access to GSM. Just AT codes talking to the modem. It's possible that we can't send random data over the air during a call. |
| 13:58.37 | SpeedEvil | It'd be really nice for neo-neo calls to be able to drop to another codec and have a low-bitrate side-channel alongside the voice call. |
| 13:59.22 | Morgret | Presumably the AT interface is one that FIC or HTC used in a previous phone. I guess we'll get specs in a week anyway. |
| 13:59.52 | fluffs | there is, iirc, an at command spec for accessesing phone mdoules |
| 13:59.59 | Elrond | Morgret - We'll get libgsm (which has a naming conflict) in a week. ;) |
| 14:00.11 | Morgret | Good good |
| 14:00.21 | Elrond | counter |
| 14:00.21 | aloril | 1 week, 3 days 09:59:38 (10.42 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 3 days (38.42 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 1 week, 3 days (222.42 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 14:00.26 | XVampireX | SpeedEvil: True :P |
| 14:00.30 | Elrond | s/a week/`counter`/ |
| 14:01.52 | Morgret | The AT spec can't be *too* limiting anyway, because in theory our Neo is the exact same hardware that FIC will be selling in huge numbers as WinMobile phones. |
| 14:03.19 | Elrond | Morgret - Any info on the price for that? |
| 14:04.40 | aloril | counter |
| 14:04.40 | aloril | a week, 3 days 09:55:19 (10.41 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.41 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.41 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 14:05.54 | Morgret | aloril: lol, is there only one phone in the A-list, the Nokia N93? Or is my browser screwed ... |
| 14:06.51 | Elrond | Will the "mass market" phone be also $350? |
| 14:08.04 | aloril | Morgret: yeah, though I think some upcoming nokia too will be there (from nokia site of upcoming phones, maybe next version of N93 (N94 or N95?, don't recall)) |
| 14:08.04 | Morgret | Don't think we really know. Obviously they'll change the price as sales proceed, it's natural. |
| 14:08.38 | *** join/#openmoko Matt_PI (n=chatzill@209.198.66.141) |
| 14:08.46 | Elrond | Yeah. I hope, they wont make it more expensive. |
| 14:09.19 | Elrond | Although resellers like to make some money. ;o) |
| 14:10.50 | leventhal | Eh.. I'd pay more for something with more power and wifi when open wifi drivers can be made available |
| 14:11.02 | Elrond | aloril - Yep. My other toy-of-choice is 400Eur (not a phone). |
| 14:11.33 | *** join/#openmoko chef (n=chatzill@p5090F39E.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 14:11.45 | Elrond | leventhal - The neo looks straight perfect to me. Except I like more buttons. ;o) |
| 14:12.05 | chef | any idea what kind of nand flash is used? |
| 14:12.23 | leventhal | GPRS is ridiculously expensive here but wifi is widely available downtown |
| 14:12.52 | leventhal | My ideal phone would let me use centericq and skype over wifi |
| 14:13.01 | aloril | there are 2 features I would like: multitouch support in hardware (software no need, that can be added later) and simultaneous voice/data |
| 14:13.19 | Elrond | skype. yuck. |
| 14:13.39 | leventhal | But the neo is pretty close to what I'd want.. And cheap enough that I might buy it as a holdover to phase 2 once my current phone dies. |
| 14:14.29 | leventhal | Well.. skype or a sip softphone |
| 14:14.58 | Elrond | sip is fine. |
| 14:15.23 | Elrond | I'm quite pissed by any closed source currently. |
| 14:16.07 | leventhal | Understandable.. just when I'm calling Canada-Malta, skype to skype is a hell of a lot cheaper than any voip to ptsn network here |
| 14:16.28 | leventhal | and no go getting folks to switch to, say, voip-user.org |
| 14:16.35 | Elrond | I even bought my pc for work, so I do not have to install any closed x11 graphics driver. And then was urged to install skype. ;o) |
| 14:16.47 | leventhal | Er.. voipuser.org |
| 14:17.02 | ynezz | what |
| 14:17.09 | ynezz | 's wrong with skyp? |
| 14:17.13 | chef | anybody knows if the flash is directly supported by the mtd drivers of the kernel, or if it is some proprietary stuff (e.g. diskonchip)? |
| 14:17.57 | ynezz | they're samsungs probably too :p |
| 14:18.14 | Elrond | chef - It's probably either supported by mtd, or FIC will release a change to the kernel (under gpl). |
| 14:18.44 | Elrond | ynezz - skype is closed binary stuff. You can't audit it. |
| 14:18.49 | chef | elrond - i am somewhat pissy, 'cause trolltech used diskonchip and trueffs |
| 14:18.56 | Elrond | ynezz - I'm paranoid enough to run it in a sub-X-Server. |
| 14:19.22 | chef | i hope that there will be a really free phone... |
| 14:19.43 | Stephmw | chef: how much free-er than the Neo are you looking for? |
| 14:19.45 | SpeedEvil | The neo comes close - though the GSM bit isn't open. |
| 14:20.15 | SpeedEvil | If the GSM bit wassas open, it'd be an imprisonable offecnce to operate many places I expect. |
| 14:20.38 | Stephmw | SpeedEvil: maybe not prison, but very, very big fines |
| 14:20.40 | chef | i only read the prelim. specs and have no idea how free it will be |
| 14:20.57 | hrw|work | GSM part is open. it is gsm modem which is operated with AT commands. |
| 14:21.05 | Stephmw | SpeedEvil: iirc, in some countries the fines for violating airwave regulations are uncapped |
| 14:21.06 | SpeedEvil | I think the UK legislation on 'chipping' would cover it. |
| 14:21.14 | hrw|work | list of commands is available, gsm specs are available. |
| 14:21.18 | SpeedEvil | And they are imprisonable offences. |
| 14:21.36 | hrw|work | you should not need datasheet of gsm chipset to be able to use it as GSM |
| 14:21.42 | SpeedEvil | Well - the GSM part isn't really open then is it - if you can't for example run multiple SIMS connected over bluetooth |
| 14:21.43 | hrw|work | closed is GPS daemon |
| 14:21.48 | Stephmw | SpeedEvil: and most of the reason behind those harsh regulations is cold war and WW2 stuff |
| 14:22.01 | SpeedEvil | Don't forget terrorism! |
| 14:22.37 | Stephmw | yah. I'm surprised strong crypt hasn't been re-embargoed |
| 14:22.37 | SpeedEvil | A lot of cool stuff could be done by a truly open GSM radio. Without any illegality at all. |
| 14:23.14 | SpeedEvil | Though for strong crypt, neos with one-time-pads loaded on the SD could be pretty good. |
| 14:24.45 | fluffs | chef - it is very difficult to get a nand chip that isn't just directly supported by the s3c2410 nand driver (via mtd) |
| 14:24.57 | leventhal | I bet the cryptophone.de guys could be persuaded to sell software for neo |
| 14:25.20 | leventhal | And since they offer their source for review there'll probably be a few copies floating in the phreak circles before they do |
| 14:25.45 | fluffs | i'm just finishing the update for the s3c2410 nand to correct any bit errors when using the hardware based ecc generator |
| 14:25.59 | chef | are all licensing issue solved so far? or are these things still rumours? |
| 14:26.44 | fluffs | dunno, part of my job is to do core 2410 work |
| 14:26.51 | Morgret | People need to stop saying that the GPS daemon is closed. It's an A-GPS daemon, and the GPS control itself is entirely open -- we talk to the device in the same way as agpsd talks to it. Ignore the agpsd, it's a cukkoo. |
| 14:27.18 | *** join/#openmoko chrustinho (n=christop@p57B003CB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 14:27.54 | Elrond | Morgret - You sure? We could just drop the closed daemon and drop in some free (as in free speach) one? |
| 14:28.02 | aloril | why would GPL firmware for GSM subsystem be illegal? I guess using modified version of it without re-certifying would be in many places ;-) |
| 14:28.22 | chef | fluffs - i think i'll give it a try sometime -- as said i am disappointed from trolltech and the greenphone. the support is somewhat bad |
| 14:28.26 | Elrond | aloril - "it would be too easy to modify". bla bla. ;) |
| 14:28.44 | Stephmw | aloril: I believe that _distributing_ such a modifiable would itself breach regulations |
| 14:28.51 | aloril | Morgret: umm... yes, but you need to 1) decipher what GPS chip talks 2) have software that does actual calculations (I think part 2 already exists) |
| 14:28.53 | chef | fluffs - and installing a recent kernel seems impossible without the trueffs drivers (only with nda) |
| 14:28.54 | Morgret | If our only access to GPS were through the closed agpsd daemon, then FIC would have broken their promise of fully open hardware. And what's more, they then could have included wifi on the same basis. |
| 14:30.06 | *** join/#openmoko l4rs (n=laprican@hsiproxy.astra-net.com) |
| 14:30.07 | aloril | Stephmw: is actually illegal or is just impossible to certify one? ;-) |
| 14:30.09 | Elrond | Morgret - We probably should wait 1,5 weeks. ;) |
| 14:30.42 | Morgret | aloril: no, we won't need to decipher the comms at the h/w interface, because we'll be told them. Otherwise it's closed (or at least undisclosed) hardware, and that's NOT the message we've been getting from FIC. |
| 14:30.50 | Morgret | Elrond: yeah |
| 14:31.06 | chef | morgret - the problem with fully open hardware starts with the manufacturers of the chips. they do not publish data sheets for decent stuff. |
| 14:31.28 | aloril | Morgret: well.. they did say it was closed daemon from start, didn't they? (but I except replacement should be too hard to write, we can observe output/input of daemon) |
| 14:31.29 | Stephmw | aloril: I believe it's actually against the regulation. Illegality will vary greatly in each jurisdiction |
| 14:31.40 | Morgret | chef: yes, but we don't have direct access to the chips, only to the h/w interface that FIC provides to it. |
| 14:32.13 | aloril | Morgret: ah.. hm.. I suspect there won't be datasheet, that we need to decipher (but hopefully I'm wrong) |
| 14:32.25 | chef | morgret - of what chips are you speaking? some will surely be mapped to memory. |
| 14:32.56 | Morgret | chef: this is how they've made the phone "open" ... by taking the stuff which can't be accessed directly behind a hardware interface that we *can* access. |
| 14:33.05 | aloril | Stephmw: ah.. hmm... but you can flash Neo GSM susbsystem ;-) (though doing that without turning it into brick would require something extra ;-) |
| 14:33.48 | Stephmw | aloril: I doubt the flash distributable would be anything other than a blob - likely signed |
| 14:34.04 | Elrond | aloril - Well, you can wait for the first gsm firmware to be downloadable... and then have fun disassembling it. ;o) |
| 14:34.05 | Morgret | chef: we don't know yet, but it must apply to *all* chips that cannot be openned fully. |
| 14:35.29 | aloril | Stephmw: actually there might not be any binary blob even, what I mean is that its possible to reflash GSM: problem is to find something useful to flash it with without making it brick ;-) |
| 14:35.30 | chef | ok, but then e.g. gsm could be only accessible via at commands which then fulfills this promise --- but possibly gives not enough freedom |
| 14:35.34 | Elrond | Has Sean ever been in here? Or only under disguise? ;) |
| 14:36.13 | Stephmw | aloril: ah, I see what you mean |
| 14:36.27 | Morgret | If we need to reverse engineer anything at all that is accessible by the host CPU, then I think the promise of openness has been broken. Obviously binary blobs for the GSM and other loadable firmware are exempt -- they don't run on the SoC. |
| 14:36.29 | Elrond | chef - It will give already a lot of freedom. |
| 14:36.33 | aloril | chef: yeah, I think its like PC with GSM modem |
| 14:37.05 | Stephmw | aloril: from experience with other manufacturers's handsets, typically the on-board flasher does a certificate check against incoming flash requests (and in more than one case also authenticates the flashing device) |
| 14:37.46 | Stephmw | aloril: that's not necessarily GSM-related though ;) |
| 14:37.59 | Stephmw | aloril: some OEMs are just bloody paranoid |
| 14:38.03 | chef | elrond - what about e.g. processing the voice stream? simple example: detection of voice stress |
| 14:38.26 | Elrond | chef - All the audio can be routed through the host cpu, if you want. |
| 14:38.28 | Morgret | chef: you mean for the sex industry? :-) |
| 14:39.07 | Elrond | Morgret - He wants to run that isreal lie detection system ;o) |
| 14:39.10 | chef | elrond - routed and processed or just recorded? |
| 14:39.22 | Elrond | chef - routed and processed. |
| 14:39.36 | Morgret | chef: if you have access to the stream, you can do anything you like with it. |
| 14:39.53 | Elrond | chef - You can either let the mic go direct to the gsm, or go into the CPU (ADC), process, and then feed to the GSM (DAC) |
| 14:40.02 | aloril | Morgret: well.. http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2006/11/08#20061108-openmoko-gpl-clarification |
| 14:40.20 | chef | morgret - not neccessarily |
| 14:40.42 | fluffs | Elrond: you'd have to put the mic into the audio codec. the cpu adcs can't do dma |
| 14:40.44 | Elrond | chef - Same with the other direction. |
| 14:41.12 | *** join/#openmoko Matt_PI_ (n=chatzill@209.198.66.141) |
| 14:41.17 | Elrond | fluffs - The mic is connected to the audio codec via the mixer, I understand. |
| 14:41.38 | Elrond | CM - I think, it should be possible. ;) |
| 14:41.45 | Elrond | modulo CPU power. ;o) |
| 14:41.58 | Elrond | (you know, it's a P100 equivalent "only") |
| 14:42.32 | CM | Sure, but just increase or decrease the tone shouldn't take so much power |
| 14:42.41 | Morgret | aloril: I'm not sure how to interpret Mickey's sentence about the GPS. It's still perfectly possible that the plain GPS functionality is available in the standalone hardware. |
| 14:42.43 | chef | aloril - that link is interesting. is it official? |
| 14:42.50 | Morgret | Maybe we can get Mickey to clarify |
| 14:43.03 | aloril | chef: writer is main hardware developer |
| 14:43.21 | aloril | umm.. main hardware driver developer (and gpl violations guy too) |
| 14:43.24 | chef | that sounds nice |
| 14:43.39 | fluffs | and the kernel developer won't take any shit either |
| 14:43.59 | Morgret | chef: Mickey was on here this morning, battling with sureshkumar435 |
| 14:44.36 | CM | 100 wins out of 100 complaints for gpl-violations shows that ;) |
| 14:44.44 | chef | fluffs - will there be generic patches or some hardcoded stuff? |
| 14:44.54 | aloril | Morgret: other mails I have seen imply that chip does only receiving stuff and actual calculations are done in software (as that "soft modem GPS" says) |
| 14:45.38 | CM | aloril: Yes, but if I interpret it correctly it's done on a separete chip |
| 14:46.16 | chef | aloril - software calculation would mean lots of cpu load |
| 14:46.42 | fluffs | chef: i intend on doing generic patches |
| 14:47.16 | chef | fluffs - nice |
| 14:47.37 | Morgret | aloril: if so, that is both good an bad. Bad because in the early days we won't have open GPS. But very good in the long term, because open GPS code will eventually be vastly better than the closed one. |
| 14:47.50 | fluffs | but i do some of this stuff because work pays me to |
| 14:47.56 | fluffs | like the 2410 nand ecc correction |
| 14:47.59 | *** join/#openmoko amarsh05 (n=amarsh04@CPE-138-217-208-105.sa.bigpond.net.au) |
| 14:48.10 | aloril | CM: GSM is done in separate chip, GSP is dump chip (IMHO) |
| 14:48.19 | mjr | I'm not sure if GPS code can be "vastly better", but I have no doubt that we will have free GPS daemon at some point somehow |
| 14:48.42 | mjr | (just needs somebody to do it ;) |
| 14:48.55 | aloril | s/GSP/GPS/ |
| 14:49.15 | mjr | and yeah, the GPS chip is dumb in the way that it doesn't do (at least all of) the calculations necessary, but needs the daemon for that |
| 14:49.17 | chef | fluffs - currently (in spare time), i try to understand a diskonchip g3 in that d**m greenphone, but i think i'll stop it and wait for this phone |
| 14:49.45 | chef | fluffs - btw: when will it be available (don't flame me)? |
| 14:50.01 | fluffs | most s3c devices just connect nand directly as all s3c24xx chips have dedicated nand controller which understands how to boot the chip from nand |
| 14:50.17 | fluffs | chef - no idea, i've not got any info on the particular hardware yet... waiting for the 11th |
| 14:50.21 | aloril | Morgret: look at it this way: if GPS calculation software was running on separate chip: |
| 14:50.30 | aloril | 1) more expensive chip |
| 14:50.40 | aloril | 2) we could not rewrite that software |
| 14:50.47 | chef | fluffs - so you are developing w/o hardware? |
| 14:51.46 | aloril | Morgret: it uses standard interfaces, so I think its equivalent to it running it separate chip (except now easier to replace it) |
| 14:51.52 | *** join/#openmoko friedel (n=fwolff@dsl-242-233-175.telkomadsl.co.za) |
| 14:53.16 | aloril | (but probably not documentation for content of 'b') |
| 14:53.18 | Morgret | aloril: I guess we'll have to see. Although perhaps Mickey will be able to explain further the level of openness of the actual GPS hardware at its interface to SoC. |
| 14:54.05 | chef | morgret - anyway, i guess that somehow nmea will be available, won't it? |
| 14:55.26 | aloril | there was some guy here that knew person that had written GPS calculation software, so I guess only need to decipher 'b' content |
| 14:55.39 | fluffs | chef: developing without that specific hw... difficult to swing the office cat in here without hitting a samsung chip |
| 14:56.13 | aloril | chef: yeah, I think it outputs nmea and you can disable 'a' part (but again, I'm not developer (yet)) |
| 14:57.12 | chef | aloril - what means yet? |
| 14:59.12 | chef | or - how to become developer and get early access to the phone? |
| 14:59.21 | aloril | counter |
| 14:59.21 | aloril | a week, 3 days 09:00:38 (10.38 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.38 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.38 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 14:59.26 | aloril | 1.5 weeks for source release |
| 14:59.40 | aloril | chef: well.. if you count developing for linux, then I'm already developer ;-) |
| 15:00.07 | Morgret | chef: NMEA's bound to be available out of the closed daemon. But I'm not interested in that, it's not why I'm buying the Neo. |
| 15:00.11 | chef | ok, how to become a selected developer? |
| 15:00.26 | aloril | see openmoko.com |
| 15:00.40 | *** join/#openmoko l4rs (n=laprican@hsiproxy.astra-net.com) |
| 15:01.55 | *** join/#openmoko koen (n=koen@212.41.157.237) |
| 15:02.04 | chef | aloril - ok. and how to become 'any' developer? i have no open project that could count. |
| 15:02.22 | aloril | chef: umm.. just order it online when it becomes available |
| 15:02.30 | Morgret | The selected developers have already been selected, so don't bother. :P After 11th March, we're all developers. |
| 15:03.07 | aloril | chef: that 'developer' just means that "don't except too much from it from software viewpoint yet" ;-) |
| 15:03.16 | hrw|work | selected developers got mails about being selected few days ago |
| 15:04.30 | chef | ok guys, i'll have to split now, but surely will be back around march |
| 15:04.36 | chef | thanks for the information |
| 15:04.40 | Morgret | cya |
| 15:04.45 | Elrond | Morgret - http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2006/11/08#20061108-openmoko-gpl-clarification does sound like a proprietary proctocol between gps chip and agpsd |
| 15:06.04 | mjr | yes, that's pretty much a given |
| 15:06.21 | Morgret | Elrond: it can be interpreted that way, but it can also be interpreted as the daemon developers simply not wanting to reveal their algorithms, while the h/w interface is fully documented. We'll see. |
| 15:06.23 | *** join/#openmoko tuxmaniac (n=aanjhan@unaffiliated/tuxmaniac) |
| 15:07.02 | mjr | Hmm, good point, though, I doubt it a bit. We will. |
| 15:07.18 | Elrond | the h/w interface is most likely documented. As it has to go thorough "our" kernel. ;) But the protocol on top. ;) |
| 15:07.23 | *** join/#openmoko aloril2 (n=aloril@kaar72.airix.fi) |
| 15:07.51 | Morgret | mjr: look at it this way: If I'm wrong about the GPS hardware interface not being open, then FIC have zero reason for not including wifi on that exact same basis. |
| 15:08.11 | Elrond | Right. |
| 15:08.22 | mjr | well, I was thinking of the protocol |
| 15:08.30 | Morgret | mjr: sorry, too many double negatives. I think the h/w interface to GPS will be open, else FIC are inconsistent in what they've said. |
| 15:08.36 | mjr | the interface is an UART, I hear, so no particular closedness there |
| 15:08.37 | aloril | Morgret: wifi requires kernel driver vs agpds being user space? |
| 15:08.44 | Elrond | Except for the closed thing not beig in userspace, but in kernel space (for wifi). |
| 15:08.55 | Elrond | aloril - Right. |
| 15:09.06 | *** join/#openmoko WillySilly (n=WillySil@archlinux/trusteduser/WillySilly) |
| 15:09.12 | mjr | and kernel space closed bits are more contested licence-wise and also cause upgrading grief |
| 15:09.34 | Elrond | Well, userspace causes upgrading grief sometimes too. |
| 15:09.38 | Morgret | Anything running in kernel with few exceptions like MMU and trap and memory and device handling can also be done in user space. |
| 15:10.38 | Morgret | Eg. nVidia's binary drivers could trivially run in user-space, without GPL friction. They don't, because it's slower, and harder. |
| 15:10.59 | Elrond | Right. |
| 15:11.59 | *** join/#openmoko quinton (n=quinton@84-45-151-51.no-dns-yet.enta.net) |
| 15:13.24 | *** join/#openmoko amarsh04 (n=amarsh04@CPE-138-217-208-105.sa.bigpond.net.au) |
| 15:14.30 | Morgret | I remain hopeful. Mickeyl didn't say the whole GPS subsystem was closed, only that the daemon was closed. Given their emphasis on the open AT-type serial interface to GSM, I'm reading into this that access to the GPS h/w is similarly accessible ... it may be very low level and sordid though. |
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| 15:15.17 | *** part/#openmoko amarsh05 (n=amarsh04@CPE-138-217-208-105.sa.bigpond.net.au) |
| 15:15.26 | Elrond | Morgret - And very undocumented. ;o) |
| 15:15.59 | Morgret | Elrond: that would suck, if zero doc and zero help in trying to figure it out. |
| 15:16.41 | CM | Morgret: Totally off topic, but my brain just can't read your nick. |
| 15:17.06 | CM | I just see my lastname, Mogren, every time :P |
| 15:17.18 | Elrond | *G* |
| 15:17.24 | Morgret | It's encrypted, patented, trademarked, and rot13'd for good measure :P |
| 15:17.28 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (i=foobar@dslb-084-057-129-170.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 15:18.24 | Morgret | CM: close to Moglen, as in Eben |
| 15:19.20 | *** join/#openmoko PirateHead (n=piratehe@AC85A73A.ipt.aol.com) |
| 15:21.10 | Elrond | We'll hope, mickeyl can put some light on the gps situation. Otherwise we have to wait until `counter`. |
| 15:26.12 | noidd | counter |
| 15:26.13 | aloril | a week, 3 days 08:33:47 (10.36 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.36 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.36 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 15:26.33 | Stephmw | hopefully we'll get some more, juicy details by FOSDEM-time |
| 15:28.41 | *** join/#openmoko koen (n=koen@212.41.157.237) |
| 15:31.16 | *** join/#openmoko srikantux (n=sri@59.92.201.77) |
| 15:46.40 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Well, when the first people have their phones, you can expect them to run strace on agpsd ;o) |
| 15:47.15 | noidd | -rall -wall # I don't believe in strace :-) |
| 15:48.24 | Stephmw | noidd: go straight for the assembly? |
| 15:48.33 | Elrond | Or: mv /dev/ttyS17 /dev/ttyS17-orig && ln -s /dev/tty-snoop /dev/ttyS17 |
| 15:48.34 | Elrond | ;o) |
| 15:51.17 | *** join/#openmoko loufoque (n=lofoque@smj33-1-82-233-64-48.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 15:54.25 | Morgret | Lots of ways of figuring out what agpsd does. I'd much rather we worked from first principles though, off the serial device stream, because it's not possible to copyright a stream. |
| 15:55.12 | Elrond | Morgret - Right, why I suggested the snoop-tty ;) |
| 15:55.49 | Elrond | Will be a tough job without docs. :-| |
| 15:55.51 | Morgret | Elrond: indeed, although hopefully that's not necessary and we'll have the specs on 11th March. |
| 15:56.20 | Elrond | Let's hope. |
| 15:56.22 | Morgret | Or 11th Feb |
| 15:56.27 | *** join/#openmoko bkuhn (n=bkuhn@fsf/member/bkuhn/bkuhn) |
| 15:58.31 | Morgret | Btw, anyone know how the two buttons are interfaced? Will they send signals to dbus? |
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| 16:00.08 | Elrond | Morgret - No idea. And I wonder, where the power-button is. |
| 16:01.14 | Morgret | Presumably it's just one of those two, held down for a few seconds to toggle on/off. |
| 16:01.35 | Elrond | Yeah. |
| 16:02.00 | Morgret | Unless the touchscreen is such low-power that it's wakeup-on-touch. |
| 16:02.06 | Elrond | My guess for normal-operation of the buttons would have been mouse-button-emulation. |
| 16:02.08 | Morgret | Doubt it. |
| 16:03.07 | Morgret | It's really too few buttons for a geek phone, damn it. |
| 16:03.42 | noidd | wakeup on touch is dangerous |
| 16:03.42 | Elrond | I hope, the touchscreen can be power'd down, so that it doesn't react, while I keep the phone in my jacket... |
| 16:03.57 | *** join/#openmoko simonvc (n=simonvc@host-87-74-77-235.bulldogdsl.com) |
| 16:04.22 | Morgret | Not asking for the 84 buttons on my Nokia Communicator ... but just 2 is .... er, minimalist. :-( |
| 16:04.41 | Elrond | Right. |
| 16:05.07 | simonvc | Hey, is there an open moko faq for potential developers? im wondering if the pphone will allow access to the "gsm cell id" and also if it supports 3g/gsm |
| 16:05.53 | Morgret | simonvc: unknown -- see counter |
| 16:05.57 | Morgret | counter |
| 16:05.57 | aloril | a week, 3 days 07:54:03 (10.33 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.33 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.33 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 16:06.09 | Elrond | simonvc - No 3g AFAIK. |
| 16:06.28 | Elrond | simonvc - cell id: I'd assume yes. But I'm not sure. |
| 16:07.03 | Elrond | What was that? |
| 16:07.14 | Elrond | Are we the quick-answer channel? |
| 16:07.31 | pH5 | :) |
| 16:08.31 | Morgret | This is the OpenMoko Lounge ... we're lounge lizards :-) |
| 16:08.35 | *** join/#openmoko pleemans (n=peter@d51A5E76A.access.telenet.be) |
| 16:09.04 | Elrond | Okay, I'll take the quick-answer-joker then for this one: "Where's the gps-hw-spec?" ;o) |
| 16:09.32 | *** join/#openmoko dyrne (i=pike@server1.freeshells.ch) |
| 16:10.11 | Morgret | Elrond: waiting for Mickey to appear again to ask about what's available at that h/w port ;-) |
| 16:10.34 | Morgret | Elrond: and he may not be able to say, until 11th |
| 16:10.46 | Elrond | Yeah... |
| 16:11.00 | Elrond | I hope he can at least say that he can't say it. ;) |
| 16:11.21 | Morgret | Hehe |
| 16:12.34 | Morgret | Well in the meantime, how about more folks trying out their surfing skills to locate specs on the Global Locate Hammerhead chip? After a solid 2 hours, I only found their 2-page glossy, which is useless for engineering. |
| 16:13.22 | Morgret | Or dumpster dive behind their HQ .... ;-) |
| 16:13.33 | pH5 | Morgret: it's the same with the ti calypso gsm chip, nothing to be found :( |
| 16:13.54 | SuN | Some social engineering seems in order. |
| 16:14.24 | SuN | "Hi, I'm the owner of a company that's making cell phones. Can you please give me technical details on your GPS chip / GSM chip?" |
| 16:14.31 | Morgret | pH5: the difference is, we know that our interface to GSM is via the AT serial i/f. In contrast, we have access to a bit more in the hardware for GPS, it seems. maybe. perhaps. who knows :P |
| 16:15.00 | SuN | Adjust sentence accordingly to remove or add any lies :P |
| 16:16.09 | Morgret | Pity the old phone phreaker circles kind of died as tech advanced, they were really good at that kind of slyness. Maybe they're still around, but underground. |
| 16:16.16 | Morgret | Or in Guantanamo :-( |
| 16:17.37 | SuN | The technology became less stupid, I guess. |
| 16:17.44 | Morgret | Yeah |
| 16:17.54 | SuN | Phone companies know better than to trust user input nowadays :) |
| 16:18.07 | leventhal | Heh |
| 16:18.28 | Morgret | That's because they're entirely staffed by lawyers, for whom lying is a professional skill. |
| 16:19.06 | Morgret | (Sorry, that was a reference to the LiMo Foundation :P) |
| 16:26.14 | Morgret | Ah, just reading on Mickey's blog ... the phase 0 phones are scheduled to leave Taiwan on the 11th Feb, to those already notified. |
| 16:27.36 | Morgret | So even Phase 0 devs won't see the phone until quite a few days after the source is visible to all. |
| 16:28.10 | PirateHead | did you see the letter to GetAFirstLife.com from linden Labs' lawyers? |
| 16:28.19 | PirateHead | it was something else |
| 16:28.20 | SuN | Pretty cool. |
| 16:28.44 | PirateHead | disclaimer: speaking of lawyers, going on a tangeant, etc |
| 16:30.41 | Morgret | Yeah, I agree re Second Life ... but their lawyers are not representative of the genre. And furthermore, I doubt that the homour comes from them directly. |
| 16:31.44 | Morgret | You have to counterbalance that with RIAA lawyers on the other side, who are barely legal in what they do. |
| 16:33.30 | PirateHead | When I explain to people what evil is, I use the example of RIAA lawyers to explain that evil people don't necessarily break the law. |
| 16:33.47 | Morgret | Yeah, it's sad. |
| 16:34.29 | Morgret | Before anyone asks ... no, we won't be able to run the open-source Second Life client on the phone ;-))))) |
| 16:34.54 | leventhal | /cry |
| 16:35.23 | Sketch | that would be pretty cool ;) |
| 16:35.32 | Morgret | Not because all 3D is out of the question (although that will be really hard), but because the SL client is written very badly, and is a resourse hog even on red hot hardware. |
| 16:36.14 | Morgret | And the S3C2410 is not red hot hardware ;-))) |
| 16:38.01 | XorA | wait until Neo2 with iMX33 hardware :-) |
| 16:38.12 | Sketch | perhaps now that it's open sourced, someone will write a lighter weight client |
| 16:38.50 | Morgret | XorA: that's be old hat by Sept 2008 :-( |
| 16:39.03 | Morgret | Sketch: hahahahaha |
| 16:39.37 | XorA | Morgret: at least it has same gfx chip as Dreamcast |
| 16:39.57 | Morgret | Well actually, their graphics aren't very good, so ncurses "3D" is not a huuuuge step down. ;-) |
| 16:40.33 | Morgret | XorA: you're kidding |
| 16:40.44 | XorA | Morgret: no, the iMX33 is real |
| 16:41.07 | Morgret | XorA: Ah no, I was talking about Neo1 :P |
| 16:43.04 | Morgret | XorA: do you have a URL for iMX33 -- I've googled a lot of scientology crap |
| 16:44.03 | hrw|work | cu |
| 16:44.20 | XorA | Morgret: iMX31 + 2 |
| 16:44.28 | XorA | Morgret: from freescale |
| 16:44.40 | Morgret | XorA: aha, tnx |
| 16:47.07 | *** join/#openmoko aloril2 (n=aloril@kaar72.airix.fi) |
| 16:48.17 | Morgret | http://www.freescale.com/files/32bit/doc/data_sheet/MCIMX31.pdf |
| 16:48.31 | Morgret | So wherever you see a '1', just add '2' ;-) |
| 16:51.09 | buz | gimmegimme neo v2 with imx31 |
| 16:51.35 | vlo | hehe ... iMX31 rocks ! |
| 16:52.12 | buz | and give us the IDE port as headers, maybe we can somehow attach pcmcia then |
| 16:52.18 | buz | or at the very least compact flash |
| 16:52.24 | vlo | I enjoy playing ... euh working with iMX31 ! |
| 16:53.12 | buz | is that mpeg4 simple or asp? |
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| 16:55.36 | Elrond | So bits are 0 or 3? ;o) |
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| 17:11.03 | buz | mhh an electronic dictionary could be handy |
| 17:11.09 | buz | maybe offline version of wiktionary or some such |
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| 17:23.27 | SpeedEvil | I could see arguments for volume shipping the thing with a 2GB mini-SD card. In volume, at the time it ships, it's not that much. If we can find enough worthwhile data. |
| 17:23.43 | SpeedEvil | ^free |
| 17:26.10 | *** join/#openmoko Matt_PI__ (n=chatzill@209.198.66.141) |
| 17:29.38 | SpeedEvil | Canned bits of wikipedia are an obvious choice. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Wikipedia_CD_Selection or similar. |
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| 18:26.36 | Morgret | Wish I could figure out how to turn off people's disconnects from appearing ... but that's a bit like parents figuring out how to stop videos from blinking at 12:00. History runs in cycles. :P |
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| 18:28.13 | Elrond | *g* |
| 18:28.31 | Elrond | Morgret - what client? (not that I really have an answer for my own client ;o) ) |
| 18:28.53 | Morgret | Like everyone else on the planet, "I will write my own client one day." :-))))))))))))))) |
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| 18:33.59 | Elrond | *G* My one is a stock debian install ;) |
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| 18:57.03 | Morgret | Elrond: Gentoo here on most boxes, although there are some older ones on other distros. |
| 18:57.12 | buz | http://www.mobile-review.com/fullnews/main/index_eng.shtml#12208 such with openmoko *droool* |
| 18:58.28 | Morgret | The concept of "stock install" sort of disappears after you've been with Gentoo a while. It just seems odd that despite everything changing all the time, you're stuck with what the distro allows you. |
| 19:00.01 | Morgret | buz: Oh, that's the same Meizu M8 I posted a few days ago. Different URL website though. |
| 19:00.14 | buz | must have missed it |
| 19:01.11 | buz | lol their other products are very blatant osx ripoffs |
| 19:01.25 | buz | http://en.meizu.com/photos_m6.asp this one especially |
| 19:01.26 | Morgret | buz: but we concluded that it was actually a GIMP/PS fraud, because engadget showed the Meizu M8 as a totally different item, successor to the M6 |
| 19:01.39 | buz | mhh that would make sense |
| 19:01.47 | buz | unless of course they add a gsm module to it |
| 19:02.05 | SpeedEvil | Pity - as that's a damn huge screen in a tiny phone. |
| 19:02.21 | buz | fic should look at their design |
| 19:02.24 | SpeedEvil | There is the 'where does the battery go' |
| 19:02.25 | buz | then make v2 accordingly |
| 19:02.27 | SpeedEvil | issue. |
| 19:02.45 | SpeedEvil | The problem is I'm not sure that that design is actually possible to make. |
| 19:02.56 | buz | depends on the thicksness |
| 19:03.03 | buz | theres the lg prada phone that is kinda like it |
| 19:03.12 | buz | and iphone itself |
| 19:03.28 | buz | shouldnt be that hard to put a better os and scren on the iphone |
| 19:03.46 | Morgret | Plastic polymer batteries don't actually need any space. But you can't replace them, short of changing your phone shell :P |
| 19:04.06 | SpeedEvil | You've got 11.5mm - out of that, comes 2mm from the clamshell, 2mm for the screen, 2mm for the inside and outside casings, leaving only 4mm for battery and PCB. |
| 19:04.18 | SpeedEvil | Err - yes they do need space. |
| 19:04.28 | SpeedEvil | They are not structural plastic. |
| 19:04.29 | buz | uhm why does it need clamshell |
| 19:04.47 | SpeedEvil | The 3-view shows - to me a cover for the screen. |
| 19:05.00 | buz | skip the cover |
| 19:05.02 | buz | no use |
| 19:05.17 | SpeedEvil | If you don't have a cover on that size and thinness of screen, it's going to shatter often. |
| 19:05.23 | buz | and if its there, they surely dont count it towards the thickness |
| 19:05.35 | buz | besides as long as its <20mm its fine by me |
| 19:05.52 | *** join/#openmoko DrZeus (n=drzeus@85.8.24.16.se.wasadata.net) |
| 19:05.53 | buz | heck my p900 is over 25mm and thats still good enough |
| 19:06.13 | DrZeus | any fic guys around? |
| 19:06.37 | SpeedEvil | Personally, I'd prefer a phone a little thicker that I can sit on accidentally. |
| 19:06.38 | DrZeus | the mail server at openmoko.org doesn't like me :/ |
| 19:07.03 | Morgret | DrZeus: No, they've all been given offers they can't refuse by Microsoft :P |
| 19:07.36 | DrZeus | I guess that would have to be in the godfather sense then :) |
| 19:07.56 | Morgret | No no, in the american dream sense :P |
| 19:08.21 | Morgret | Which is the godfather in lamb's clothing ... :P |
| 19:09.20 | CM | Morgret: I've been using gentoo since 1.2 btw ;) |
| 19:09.24 | *** join/#openmoko Matt_PI (n=chatzill@209.198.66.141) |
| 19:09.34 | Morgret | CM: gratz :P |
| 19:09.37 | SpeedEvil | Measuring on the picture indicates that it's 11.2m including the cover. |
| 19:09.43 | SpeedEvil | 11.2mm :) |
| 19:10.07 | Morgret | 11 meters is a pretty big screen |
| 19:10.24 | *** join/#openmoko parag0n (n=parag0n@popeshoe.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 19:10.36 | SpeedEvil | No, that's thickness, with a 50*80mm or so screen |
| 19:11.25 | Morgret | SpeedEvil: to place a call, you dive in the deep end. |
| 19:11.28 | SpeedEvil | You'd have to use long zoom lenses, and really careful angles on the afverts. |
| 19:12.53 | Morgret | SpeedEvil: oh I getcha. To place a call, you line up the sniperscope for a headshot. Yeah, that's a different paradigm. :P |
| 19:16.51 | Elrond | *g* |
| 19:17.21 | Elrond | For my current phone, I need to use a monocular to place a call. |
| 19:17.55 | *** join/#openmoko Clind (n=clind@bny92-3-81-56-44-93.fbx.proxad.net) |
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| 19:18.01 | Morgret | Maybe the OM lounge needs a Surrelist's Annex :P |
| 19:19.27 | Morgret | I assume we'll have a devs channel too, where non-tech chat is disallowed. |
| 19:19.48 | Clint | aw, this channel isn't quite so bad as the mailing list |
| 19:20.15 | Morgret | SpeedEvil: but would they survive the shock, our would you get powder out the other end? |
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| 19:22.17 | SpeedEvil | I suspect properly packed, they'd work just fine. |
| 19:22.30 | Morgret | Clint: I have a solution for tech mailing lists: ML comments should have an associated svn code checkin, and unless it compiles successfully, the ML post is rejected ;-)))) |
| 19:22.31 | SpeedEvil | I suspect you'd need to go to 20mm to get it reliable though. |
| 19:22.43 | Clint | Morgret: no one ever enforces those things |
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| 19:25.22 | Morgret | Clint: t'would be trivial to enforce ML post acceptance based on svn/cvs/etc checkin and compile success, scripted. |
| 19:25.57 | Morgret | Not many people would like it, but it would stop non-tech comments. |
| 19:26.18 | koen|gprs__ | counter |
| 19:26.18 | aloril | a week, 3 days 04:33:41 (10.19 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.19 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.19 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 19:26.27 | Elrond | Morgret - The ml-server would apply and commit? |
| 19:26.29 | Clint | Morgret: yeah, i know it WOULD be |
| 19:26.38 | pH5 | koen|gprs_ can hardly wait :) |
| 19:27.08 | koen|gprs__ | djeez |
| 19:27.12 | koen|gprs__ | java people are clueless |
| 19:27.31 | koen|gprs__ | want to go and create a project on gforge instead of doing actually something |
| 19:27.31 | Morgret | Elrond: dunno, we'd have to figure that out. But it's certainly possible to link posting to tech ability. |
| 19:27.59 | Elrond | Morgret - It would allow anyone to do commits? ;o) |
| 19:28.36 | Morgret | Elrond: moderation would roll back bad commits and that would prevent posting for a while. |
| 19:29.02 | *** part/#openmoko jorgis (n=jorgis@ti400720a080-12060.bb.online.no) |
| 19:29.43 | Elrond | Morgret - hihi :) |
| 19:29.57 | Elrond | At least I would like it. Easy bug fixing for me. :) |
| 19:31.32 | Morgret | Hey, although this was a joke, I hope some Sourceforge project does something like that as an experiment. |
| 19:31.47 | pH5 | koen|gprs__: sounds a lot like organization for the sake of it |
| 19:32.15 | koen|gprs__ | pH5: "in case someone gets hit by a bus" |
| 19:32.28 | koen|gprs__ | use the &$*@&$@*( bugtracker or the $*#(@)*$()@$(# ml |
| 19:32.47 | Morgret | Sue the bus driver. It's the american way. |
| 19:33.51 | koen|gprs__ | I was tempted to reply: "since when to java nerds go outside?" |
| 19:34.52 | pH5 | :) |
| 19:34.58 | koen|gprs__ | java people have a great talent for pissing me of it seems |
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| 19:35.10 | koen|gprs__ | you help them, give them hints, but somehow it doesn't get through |
| 19:36.00 | Morgret | Java people are no different to any other missionary cult. The only problem is that there are a lot of them. |
| 19:37.03 | Morgret | "One true language" is no different to "One true God" |
| 19:37.37 | Elrond | How good I don't know too many java people. |
| 19:38.28 | Elrond | Isn't basic anyway the one true language? ;o) |
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| 19:39.23 | Morgret | I'm an engineer. I don't bang in screws with a hammer. Therefore there is no one true language, because they're all tools. QED. |
| 19:39.44 | koen|gprs | what?!?! |
| 19:39.51 | koen|gprs | you don't use a hammer for screws? |
| 19:40.09 | leventhal | if you don't use a hammer for screws your manager isn't clueless and micromanaging enough |
| 19:40.09 | Morgret | No, it's my failing :-( |
| 19:40.19 | Morgret | lol |
| 19:40.42 | Elrond | Isn't every tool used like a hammer? ;) |
| 19:41.41 | Morgret | Yeah, I know what you mean, being freelance I've come across a lot of loopy management |
| 19:41.42 | koen|gprs | "management" isn't in their dictionary |
| 19:41.42 | Elrond | Oh well, don't get me started on that. |
| 19:41.44 | Elrond | koen|gprs - Huh, how comes you work there? |
| 19:42.03 | koen|gprs | Elrond: http://bsst.de |
| 19:42.20 | dougt | anyone get their hardware yet? |
| 19:42.37 | koen|gprs | drat, I left my charger in the car |
| 19:43.46 | Elrond | koen|gprs - Not to mention, that two pictures on that side are b0rked. ;) |
| 19:46.44 | thedaniel | dougt: i think the advance hardware ships 2/11 |
| 19:46.57 | thedaniel | counter |
| 19:46.57 | aloril | a week, 3 days 04:13:02 (10.18 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.18 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.18 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 19:47.13 | thedaniel | (counter is a handy command for the nervous and impatient such as myself) |
| 19:47.28 | Morgret | It's no surprise. I don't know of any place where management requires professional training. And pretty much everywhere, non-management staff get bumped out of their areas of competence into management. So 99% of management being dire is guaranteed, almost everywhere. |
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| 19:49.05 | Morgret | Each area of competence should have its own professional ladder, all the way to board level. Anything else is insane. |
| 19:54.12 | Morgret | It's no surprise though that companies are structured ridiculously with only the clueless people at the top. After all, who organizes company structure? Management! QED. |
| 19:55.20 | Morgret | (This applies only to large companies. Small ones don't succumb to managerial insanity until they grow,) |
| 19:55.38 | thedaniel | i was just about to say - this is why i can only bear to work for small companies |
| 19:56.06 | koljoman | true |
| 19:56.16 | thedaniel | because at a small enough size, it's about the task, and once it grows to a certain point, it becomes more about the status and power of upper mgmt as expressed through engineering / sales / whatever depts |
| 19:57.29 | Morgret | Yep |
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| 19:58.20 | loufoque | Managers and marketers are the root of all evil in our society. |
| 19:58.27 | loufoque | Just my two cents. |
| 19:59.01 | thedaniel | loufoque: as a manager, i can only partly agree there |
| 19:59.13 | thedaniel | i think marketdroids are beings of darkness |
| 19:59.51 | thedaniel | but i can say that all the engineers at my company didn't really like dealing directly with the executives / marketers before i came in to be a sort of human shit shield for them :) |
| 20:00.07 | Morgret | Well, management starts of with a key advantage: 1 brain cell, so the issue is whether they use it properly. Marketting doesn't start out with that advantage. |
| 20:00.14 | thedaniel | lol |
| 20:03.41 | Morgret | Sorry, I should write a blog titled "A Cynic's Travels Through UK Industry". But I'm too jaded for it. :P |
| 20:06.01 | koljoman | small companies and people inside are about ideas and work done, with not so much resources, unlike big companies |
| 20:10.10 | Morgret | koljoman: yes |
| 20:11.16 | MDK | I think there psychological problem comes from the lack of normal leadership structures |
| 20:11.40 | MDK | like, the 'natural' way of things is that the best/strongest is the leader |
| 20:11.58 | MDK | ie. in a hunter tribe, the best hunter was the leader |
| 20:12.15 | MDK | in a tribe that was dependent on trading, the best trader was a leader |
| 20:12.24 | MDK | and so forth |
| 20:12.32 | MDK | in the modern societies, this is totally reversed |
| 20:12.42 | Morgret | If there's one single thing that would raise human intellectual endeavour (as opposed to pure manpower grind) it would be limiting companies to max 1000 employees. And that might be too many. |
| 20:12.44 | MDK | the best/most skilled engineer is rarely the leader |
| 20:13.15 | MDK | instead, you often see incompetent, clueless people above you |
| 20:13.35 | MDK | and that leads to a frustration, bacause it's hard to appect the power coming from above |
| 20:13.53 | MDK | if the leader is 'natural', it's normal to accept the 'orders' |
| 20:14.02 | MDK | ("he's better than me") mentality |
| 20:14.34 | SpeedEvil | You don't want the most skilled engineer as the leader. |
| 20:14.49 | SpeedEvil | You want someone who listens to him, understands his field. |
| 20:14.50 | MDK | big it companies are the proof that darwinism needs a review |
| 20:15.09 | Morgret | MDK: the problem stems from a mismatch between "strongest" (which used to mean muscle and skill with spear, and now means rank/clout) and "most competent in own area". |
| 20:15.09 | SpeedEvil | But the engineer is usually better engineering, not mmaaging. |
| 20:15.25 | meus | SpeedEvil: you want somebody that can do all the stuff so that he can just what he does best. |
| 20:15.43 | meus | so that he can just do what he does best. I meant. |
| 20:16.04 | Morgret | There used to be only one area of competence: bringing in the food. Now there are many, but they are not represented in the command structure. |
| 20:16.22 | MDK | in google most managers (or at lest middle-to-low managers) are engineers |
| 20:16.35 | Morgret | Yes, Google is amazingly insightful |
| 20:17.19 | meus | is it correct that at Goole you have do use 30 mins of your day doing something that you like the most, but that can not add value to any existing project? |
| 20:17.31 | meus | i am not sure where i heard that, but i read it in some blog post |
| 20:17.35 | cjb | meus: no. |
| 20:17.46 | meus | cjb: thanks |
| 20:17.49 | cjb | but you can have "20% time" on a non-Google project |
| 20:17.55 | cjb | but you still have to justify the project somewhat. |
| 20:18.09 | meus | ah ok |
| 20:18.12 | meus | that sounds nice |
| 20:19.19 | Morgret | It doesn't really matter if it's your project or not. What matters is if it's in your area of competence. 99% of management in the world is based on managers managing outside of their area of competence. It's no surprise that you get crap. |
| 20:20.19 | Morgret | I have met some extremely good managers in my travels. God, they're rare. |
| 20:24.04 | meus | Morgret: how do you classify a good manager? i am just curious here. since you seem to have some insight into this |
| 20:24.44 | Morgret | Good management is an extremely delicate balance. It requires trying to guide projects in the direction that some bluesky CEO thinks fit, while doing the utmost you can for the benefit of the people in your team; without the latter, you get absolutely nowhere. |
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| 20:26.25 | Morgret | A good manager will take abuse from above, and defend the team in everything and never blame them, while trying to guide them in the direction that the layers above want. It is hard hard hard hard. |
| 20:28.09 | Morgret | A manager who passes stick on down to the team is a failed manager. You have to stick your neck out and take managerial crap from above, and defend your people. You're hiring and firing them after all, if they're no good, it's your own fault, nobody else's. |
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| 20:32.29 | Morgret | The synergy that comes from that is incredible -- the people you manage look up to you as on their side, defending you against crap from above and putting your neck out on the line for them. And along with the respect, they work their guts out for you. It's a partnership. |
| 20:32.38 | Morgret | Pretty rare, in my experience. |
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| 20:33.54 | Morgret | Only have experience of UK, dunno if like that elsewhere. |
| 20:34.25 | leventhal | i've lucked into a good work environment with very cool managers |
| 20:34.47 | Morgret | leventhal: gratz :-) |
| 20:35.35 | leventhal | some of them I didn't even realize were managers until I looked up their titles. Just sat down with one to bugkill yesterday. |
| 20:35.56 | leventhal | (The stealth managers weren't from my team) |
| 20:36.20 | hrw | for moment or two |
| 20:37.44 | Morgret | leventhal: that's cool. A manager who acts like one just isn't on your side. |
| 20:41.20 | Morgret | That sort of sums it up: a good manager uses confrontation upwards (if needed) and collaboration downwards. Of course, if top management is collaborative (as it seems in Google) then it's collaboration all the way down. Rare though. |
| 20:41.38 | meus | Morgret: thanks |
| 20:41.54 | Morgret | lol |
| 20:42.49 | meus | Morgret: :) |
| 20:42.50 | Morgret | Just a view from moving around in UK industry freelance. I'd like to hear experiences from other countries. |
| 20:49.48 | rejon | is there a development chat channel? |
| 20:49.59 | *** join/#openmoko Ryushin (i=proxy@windwalker.openinnovations.com) |
| 20:51.20 | koen|gprs | is there development yet? |
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| 20:53.27 | rejon | ;) |
| 20:53.50 | rejon | There is a development mailing list, just figured that there would be a development channel with 209 ppl. in this channel :) |
| 20:54.44 | koen|gprs | right, but people in this channel don't go "OMG!!! WIFI!!!" or "OMG!!! GNU!!!" every five minutes |
| 20:54.52 | Psi_ | ^ |
| 20:55.00 | ynezz | just every hour... |
| 20:58.09 | SpeedEvil | OMG !WIFI |
| 21:00.38 | ynezz | core2trio? |
| 21:01.34 | so_solid_moo | 2 x fpga |
| 21:01.51 | so_solid_moo | running opensparc |
| 21:02.29 | SpeedEvil | I want a LCD with a sapphire face, using SAW for touches. None of this scratch crap. |
| 21:03.28 | SpeedEvil | Well - diamond really, but that's harder to fab than artificial sapphire. |
| 21:03.50 | ynezz | good point for v2 |
| 21:07.41 | Morgret | WHAT, NO WIFI? And no PONIES!!! I want PINK PONIES!!! |
| 21:07.43 | Morgret | :P |
| 21:08.26 | Morgret | Sorry, I left out the "OMG", how incompetent of me. |
| 21:08.48 | SpeedEvil | Supply it with a trained pink pony, to carry it round, and run a generator from the methane. |
| 21:09.13 | Morgret | Ah, that's why the USB is unpowered |
| 21:10.07 | Morgret | For the non-technical among you, it's because pink ponies can't generate more than 3.6V. |
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| 21:24.47 | xkr47 | lol @ ponies |
| 21:25.04 | koen|gprs | OMG PONIES!!! |
| 21:25.08 | xkr47 | eah |
| 21:25.11 | xkr47 | y |
| 21:25.20 | koen|gprs | oh dear, now you know I read slashdot |
| 21:26.07 | xkr47 | it's all downhill from here |
| 21:26.55 | xkr47 | has there been any hints about the default typing system in openmoko will be ? |
| 21:26.56 | Morgret | :P |
| 21:27.35 | Morgret | Yes. Only monkies will be allowed to type, and preferably a million of them. The goal is Skakespeare. |
| 21:28.57 | xkr47 | if shakespeare would live today, he would talk C |
| 21:29.05 | xkr47 | or write his plays in C |
| 21:30.22 | ynezz | i bet in office 2007 :p |
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| 21:31.23 | Morgret | Oh, I dunno, he might write each play in a different language, for the widest appeal. And he'd exhume Mohammed to write a religious one in Java. |
| 21:32.12 | Morgret | Although there might be a Jihad there between Java and C++ faithful. |
| 21:32.38 | Morgret | Meanwhile Turing just looks on down from on high and shakes his head ... |
| 21:32.57 | xkr47 | :) |
| 21:33.54 | Morgret | And high above Turning, Church just chuckles and winks at Lambda above him ... |
| 21:35.16 | Morgret | Basically nothing new in computing since lambda calculus. Really pathetic. The stuff about "Dark Ages of Computing" is totally correct. |
| 21:35.28 | Morgret | 40 years of sod all. |
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| 21:38.20 | Morgret | We're excitedly writing new code for a new gadget in 2007 ... which differs in almost nothing significant to writing code for an IBM 370 mainframe of 30 years ago, except that the phone is more powerful. Pretty sad. |
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| 21:38.52 | xkr47 | I wasn't coding at an age of 0 :) |
| 21:39.24 | Morgret | So people were on the moon before your time. And they haven't been there since. Sad, huh? |
| 21:39.51 | xkr47 | people have been reproducing for thousands of years |
| 21:40.04 | b_lindeijer | And they're still doing it. |
| 21:40.07 | xkr47 | yet they keep doing it today.. sad, huh?-) |
| 21:40.11 | Stephmw | xkr47: and they still manage to breed people like GWB |
| 21:40.21 | xkr47 | :D |
| 21:40.22 | Morgret | Bacteria reproduce. It doesn't take much intellect. |
| 21:40.31 | b_lindeijer | I don't think Bacteria have as much fun. |
| 21:40.34 | b_lindeijer | But well, who knows. |
| 21:40.46 | Morgret | How would you know? :P |
| 21:42.06 | b_lindeijer | Well we can only draw one conclusion. Going to the moon isn't as fun as reproducing. |
| 21:42.07 | xkr47 | how about comparing programming to painting paintings? |
| 21:42.57 | xkr47 | b_lindeijer, programming vs reproducing is otoh a different story .. ;-) |
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| 21:43.28 | Morgret | b_lindeijer: and from that, once must conclude that fun is not a companion to progress for most people. |
| 21:44.51 | b_lindeijer | Haha, very true. |
| 21:45.56 | Morgret | It boils down to Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs: depending where you are on it, different things matter to you. If you're a primitive, only instinctive things will matter. |
| 21:46.01 | Morgret | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:46.23 | Morgret | And sex is an instinctive urge, therefore primitive. |
| 21:46.43 | xkr47 | I guess programming could be too |
| 21:54.05 | Morgret | Programming might be an instictive urge, yes, as it's sort of an extension of planning, and primates have been planning since long before a monkey climbed a stump to reach a banana. |
| 21:54.24 | Morgret | But *design* probably belongs in Maslow's top layer. |
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| 21:58.14 | Morgret | About to watch V for Vendetta ... but put off already by the incompetent DVD menu design :-( |
| 21:59.45 | xkr47 | :P |
| 21:59.48 | Morgret | Bah, no DTS either. Serves me right for buying a cheap one. |
| 21:59.52 | xkr47 | mplayer dvd://2 |
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| 22:00.48 | Morgret | Computers suck for whatching DVDs, unless they're hooked up to a large screen in a dark lounge with all the lizard amenities. |
| 22:01.36 | Morgret | And with the comp in a different room so you can't hear the fans and disks. |
| 22:06.29 | Morgret | OK, I know this sounds totally daft ... but is there such a thing as a USB *firewire* interface? I know it makes no sense, but it does in just one small area: interoperability btn USB-only and Firewire-only devices. |
| 22:06.59 | Morgret | Ie. a thingie that plugs into your USB port, and presents a Firewire port out. |
| 22:08.26 | SpeedEvil | IIRC not generic. |
| 22:08.52 | Morgret | But you think there might be a special purpose one around? |
| 22:08.58 | SpeedEvil | I think I've seen hard disk ones |
| 22:09.03 | Morgret | Aha |
| 22:09.32 | SpeedEvil | I mean adaptors to use firewire hard disks. |
| 22:09.45 | Morgret | Yep, that kind of thing. |
| 22:10.17 | SpeedEvil | I diddn't bookmark them. As I diddn't need. |
| 22:10.20 | Morgret | It doesn't make sense on speed or latency grounds. But for interop, can be invaluable. |
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| 22:11.54 | Morgret | I guess I'll go brave those red-on-red V for Vendetta menus ... |
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| 22:33.28 | DukeOfURL | Hellooooo up there... |
| 22:34.07 | DukeOfURL | Who's the Bluetooth expert? |
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| 22:45.26 | noidd | Marcel :-P |
| 22:53.37 | DukeOfURL | Marcel is the Bluetooth expert? |
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