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| 00:00.13 | aloril2 | counter |
| 00:00.14 | aloril | 1 week, 4 days 23:59:46 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 2 days for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 1 week, 6 days for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
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| 04:50.20 | Morgret | Just had this link sent to me: |
| 04:50.24 | Morgret | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:51.33 | Morgret | Very competitive market. Success at selling to mom and dad is going to be hard when there are gadgets like that out there, and we really can't take anything for granted. |
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| 06:51.46 | CM | Morgret: Wow, that's a nice phone :) |
| 06:53.53 | CM | 3.3" 720 x 480 display, 3 megapixel camera, ARM11 processor and 3G in 57mm x 105mm x 11.5mm. If only we could run OpenMoko on it.. |
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| 07:14.10 | glam | help |
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| 07:53.41 | l3010o | the phone by chinese? |
| 07:53.49 | l3010o | such a big screen |
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| 08:35.49 | TomWork | lo |
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| 08:45.13 | xkr47 | yo |
| 08:45.15 | xkr47 | gug |
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| 08:46.28 | xkr47 | it would only allow to make one call or send one sms, would limit the call length and not allow access to anything else, including phone book |
| 08:48.10 | *** join/#openmoko _den-ros_ (n=Den@86.111.18.50) |
| 08:48.33 | xkr47 | .. but then of course not limiting an emergency call |
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| 08:49.14 | xkr47 | is it possible to figure out the (local) emergency number somehow? |
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| 08:51.50 | douglee | wiki.openmoko.org needs an account and password ? |
| 08:52.42 | CM | douglee: It's not open yet |
| 08:52.45 | CM | counter |
| 08:52.45 | aloril | 1 week, 4 days 15:07:14 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 2 days for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 1 week, 6 days for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
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| 08:53.41 | douglee | CM: Ok, thanks. |
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| 09:00.56 | l3010o | local emergency no? hardcode? |
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| 10:07.18 | rwhitby | mickeyl: any thoughts on my altboot question? |
| 10:07.35 | rwhitby | are there any other candidates? |
| 10:08.02 | mickeyl | i'm afraid it's the best we have |
| 10:08.05 | mickeyl | let me answer to that mail |
| 10:12.30 | mickeyl | done |
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| 11:19.36 | greentux | counter |
| 11:19.36 | aloril | 1 week, 4 days 12:40:23 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 2 days for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 1 week, 6 days for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 11:25.52 | XorA | time to register neowhores.com for people to pay to get shown a neo |
| 11:27.04 | Stephmw | hmmm, should do a cutout cardboard Neo for those |
| 11:27.10 | Stephmw | like it's been done for the iphone |
| 11:29.28 | xorAxAx | you consume whores :) |
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| 11:34.53 | XorA | I like whores, but I couldnt eat a whole one |
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| 13:22.37 | Morgret | CM: It's possible that someone's been playing with GIMP/PS and that that Meizu M8 phone picture isn't real, because engadget also has a Meizu M8 article and it's different. Here are the two URLs: |
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| 13:22.46 | supastuff | hi |
| 13:23.14 | Morgret | <PROTECTED> |
| 13:23.28 | Morgret | <PROTECTED> |
| 13:23.38 | Morgret | See, they don't agree. |
| 13:23.45 | supastuff | poor iphone, it's five years late, muahahaha |
| 13:26.43 | Morgret | The iPhone will sell on the basis of hype, and in Phase 2, Neo/OM has to compete against it to sell to Mom and Dad, so we can't ignore the competition. |
| 13:27.09 | SpeedEvil | We need to talk to cisco to get the iphone name :) |
| 13:28.02 | Morgret | Just feeding money to lawyers never achieves anything, except fattening the lawyer wallets on all sides. |
| 13:29.43 | Morgret | We need to sell on the basis of tech, since that's our forte. If we can't create killer apps that appeal to mom and dad and everyone who isn't wedded to Apple hype, then commercially this project will fail. So we have to work at it. |
| 13:30.14 | Morgret | Put your lateral thinking caps on ;-) |
| 13:30.17 | supastuff | Morgret: hopefully there will be enough geeks to develop cool apps and that would drive more mainstream acceptance |
| 13:30.50 | supastuff | apps would have to be well polished, however |
| 13:32.01 | Morgret | supastuff: it's a saturated market, just polish isn't enough. The cellphone shops are full of polished phones, pushed very strongly by marketting agreements. |
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| 13:32.22 | supastuff | I'd want to see gps rather than agps and wlan built in, though |
| 13:32.24 | CM | Really polish an app isn't so common for an open source app. Usually all devs just want to try new things and optimize more :) |
| 13:32.36 | Morgret | Neo has GPS. |
| 13:33.59 | supastuff | Morgret: I agree completely. |
| 13:33.59 | CM | The AGPS degrades to normal GPS |
| 13:33.59 | supastuff | AGPS != GPS |
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| 13:34.01 | Morgret | supastuff: AGPS is just GPS hardware plus local RF assist. It's still pure GPS if you ignore the assist. |
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| 13:34.16 | supastuff | ok, thanks for that |
| 13:35.12 | supastuff | I'd say having wlan is a key feature, especially for office/corporate users. sadly it's easier said than done. |
| 13:35.35 | Marex | yeah ... wlan is important |
| 13:35.36 | CM | Seems possible for v2, but that's over a year away |
| 13:35.36 | supastuff | even home users nowadays would make calls with their cell via wlan |
| 13:35.46 | supastuff | advanced home users, that is |
| 13:36.31 | supastuff | If the world geek community unites to push this phone forward, it can go mainstream |
| 13:36.52 | supastuff | I'll buy v1.0 as soon as it's out |
| 13:37.01 | Morgret | Just run a Bluetooth access point at home, it's only 40 quid. There's an argument for WLAN out and about in hotspots, but I don't think the argument is so strong at home. |
| 13:37.21 | supastuff | it's not about the money or comfort |
| 13:37.31 | supastuff | 1. bluetooth has a much lower range |
| 13:37.39 | supastuff | 2. then we can't use the phone for wardriving |
| 13:38.13 | supastuff | Morgret: the argument is strong at home too, as there are more wlan APs than bluetooth APs or whatever you call them. |
| 13:39.48 | supastuff | for many it's not about the cost of yet another piece of hardware but comfort |
| 13:40.40 | morricone | but the problem as discussed many times, is that they are no low power, open WIFI chips |
| 13:40.51 | supastuff | whomever worked on this phone as well as its software deserves a bit thumbs up |
| 13:42.21 | Morgret | So, can anyone confirm which of those two pages is correct about the Meizu M8? |
| 13:44.46 | Morgret | I'd never heard of Meizu before. But if it's a Samsung brand, then it might well be a Linux phone from that nutty LiMo consortium that doesn't seem to understand the GPL. |
| 13:45.02 | CM | Morgret: I think they make mp3-players |
| 13:45.19 | supastuff | just let me know where to buy the moko ;) |
| 13:45.34 | Morgret | CM: yeah, the engadget page seems more genuine that that blog site. |
| 13:49.35 | Ycros | I have an ap at home, I don't want to buy another ap just for a phone |
| 13:49.45 | Morgret | supastuff: well, rwhitby is working on a Bluetooth AP companion for the OM to run on the NSLU2, code-named MokoSlug ... :-) I'm looking forward to that. |
| 13:49.52 | Ycros | but meh |
| 13:50.09 | supastuff | that's all good. but a wlan option is important nowadays. |
| 13:50.19 | supastuff | I'll buy it with or without it. ;) |
| 13:50.35 | supastuff | I need a new phone and this is better than any at the moment |
| 13:51.35 | Morgret | v2 is bound to have wifi because the demands for it have been so huge, and geeks everywhere would react badly if it wasn't present. But our problem is now, how to handle home connectivity in v1. |
| 13:52.35 | ynezz | usb cable :p |
| 13:53.06 | supastuff | Morgret: a bit sad but understandable. |
| 13:53.47 | Morgret | It can't power an Ethernet interface directly, so you'll need a powered hub as well. Not ideal. |
| 13:54.55 | Morgret | Really Bluetooth is the only viable solution at home, unless your idea of "mobile" included trailing wires. |
| 13:55.40 | supastuff | I can see bluetooth as only being good for sync with a laptop or desktop, very close range |
| 13:55.43 | Morgret | So we need to work on good Bt access point connectivity. Bt dongles for home machines only cost a fiver anyway. |
| 13:56.29 | Morgret | supastuff: well in that case your Neo will be disconnected most of the time. You happy with that? I'm not. So I'll have to leverage the Bt connectivity. |
| 13:56.56 | Robot101 | bzzt! use of leverage as a verb. :P |
| 13:57.15 | Morgret | Yeah, I've been talking to too many americans, forgive me :-) |
| 13:57.29 | supastuff | disconnected from what? |
| 13:57.31 | Robot101 | pand works nicely over 10m or so ranges |
| 13:57.45 | Morgret | supastuff: from the net |
| 13:57.58 | Robot101 | I used bluetooth to hook my laptop and my desktop at college |
| 13:58.02 | supastuff | I don't think that's a big deal. do you have applications that need it constantly connected? |
| 13:59.05 | buz | can PAN go thru traditional walls? (i.e. rocks, not concrete with steel) |
| 13:59.10 | Robot101 | its more like, why should I have to pay for data when I'm in my house? :) |
| 13:59.20 | Morgret | supastuff: it's 2007, I don't regard connectivity as just an option anymore. But for those who do, fine. My Neo will be on and connected full time at home. |
| 13:59.38 | Robot101 | buz: one or two, yes. |
| 13:59.59 | buz | as for access point, get a USB wlan router or a NSLU and stick the dongle in there |
| 14:00.00 | buz | done |
| 14:00.09 | supastuff | Morgret: I'd say for short range connetivity bt is definitely the better choice especially in terms of power draw |
| 14:00.09 | Robot101 | buz: I was able to use it in the room upstairs for example |
| 14:00.16 | supastuff | but it's not an option beyond a few good meters |
| 14:00.24 | buz | should easily cover my 40m^2 flat then |
| 14:00.45 | buz | supastuff: save for the fact that you will rarely have BT on the road |
| 14:00.48 | supastuff | I must be out of date with bt's capabilities |
| 14:00.57 | supastuff | buz: that we already know .. |
| 14:01.00 | Morgret | buz: give us a URL for a wifi AP that allows connection of Bluetooth dongles and runs Bt PAN over them. Not seen one personally. |
| 14:01.18 | buz | asus has a bunch of linux based USB WLAN AP |
| 14:01.33 | buz | if it runs linux, it can do PAN |
| 14:02.22 | Morgret | Well an AP that you have to hack is better than nothing, but it's no use to the non-hacker. |
| 14:03.01 | buz | i'd venture to say that it wont take long until someone comes up with a ready made distro for that |
| 14:03.07 | buz | i know there's openslug alpha's already |
| 14:03.41 | Morgret | The Slug doesn't have wifi. |
| 14:03.45 | buz | yes |
| 14:03.51 | buz | but if someone builds a slug distro |
| 14:03.56 | buz | maybe someone gets openwrt to do it... |
| 14:04.09 | buz | shouldnt be terribly har |
| 14:04.09 | Morgret | Maybe maybe maybe .... |
| 14:05.39 | supastuff | everything is easy for the geek, it's the non-geek we should think about. |
| 14:06.04 | buz | so prepare an openwrt image with it set up |
| 14:06.15 | Morgret | I wonder if the Nokia 770 and its new version are a viable Bt->wifi gateway, since the gadget has both interfaces and Maemo is Linux. |
| 14:06.43 | buz | terribly expensive way to do a gateway |
| 14:06.53 | Morgret | Just a tad :P |
| 14:07.05 | buz | would be cheaper to get gumstix or something like that |
| 14:07.07 | buz | and add wifi |
| 14:07.10 | buz | smaller, too |
| 14:07.39 | SpeedEvil | Gumstix have a fundamental problem. |
| 14:07.45 | SpeedEvil | You get wifi, or you get storage. |
| 14:07.51 | Morgret | buz: I think you've missing the point ... geek solutions there are 10 million. What we're looking for is a solution for mom and dad. And there seem to be zero. |
| 14:08.04 | XorA | windows |
| 14:08.13 | buz | mom and dad probably dont surf the net on bluetooth |
| 14:08.19 | buz | and neither care to do so |
| 14:09.04 | Morgret | buz: they don't care that it's Bluetooth. But when we buy them a Neo for Xmas, and they're at home, they'll say it's crap if we don't provide them with a way to be connected. It's 2007, fer crissake. |
| 14:09.05 | buz | cant speak for your parents, but my mother is happy with her ibook, thats light enough for her |
| 14:09.31 | buz | see, normal people dont surf the web on 2,8" screens |
| 14:09.37 | buz | only geeks do that in the first place |
| 14:09.50 | Morgret | buz: you do realize that in Phase 2, Neo/OM has to sell well to mom and dad, right? Or the project fails? |
| 14:10.07 | buz | yeah |
| 14:10.11 | buz | but for that it needs be a good phone |
| 14:10.16 | buz | not a webpad |
| 14:10.26 | XorA | I think for my parents/in laws, if it can send SMS with pictures thats all they want |
| 14:10.29 | buz | solving that issue would be best done with wifi |
| 14:10.32 | CM | The Neo will sell enough anyway |
| 14:10.37 | buz | XorA: exactly |
| 14:10.46 | Morgret | Good. So we're asking for solutions for them. There's no point offering just geek solutions, nor saying that mom and dad don't need net connectivity. |
| 14:10.51 | CM | But of course, the bigger the Moko part of the sales is the better :) |
| 14:11.18 | buz | chances are only parents of geeks will even know about the phones |
| 14:11.26 | buz | their child can install them a BT hub in 20min |
| 14:11.41 | *** join/#openmoko Zer0Her0_ (n=Z@17.255.240.70) |
| 14:12.52 | buz | proper way to solve the issue is adding wifi |
| 14:13.00 | buz | not telling people to buy a 200$ gadget |
| 14:13.46 | Morgret | buz: jeez man, live in the present. Neo1 doesn't have wifi |
| 14:13.52 | buz | yes |
| 14:13.54 | buz | i do live in the present |
| 14:14.22 | buz | if you think you can sell people a >100$ solution to surf the web with their phone, well think again |
| 14:14.45 | *** join/#openmoko silwol (n=silwol@193.170.68.74) |
| 14:15.18 | buz | XorA at 4E a MB thats not an option here |
| 14:15.20 | Morgret | CM: I don't think we can take "enough sales" for granted. The cellphone shops are closed up tight by manufacturer deals, most people expect their phones to be free with contract anyway, and the Neo doesn't have a really advanced h/wfeature set. It's going to need some hard work. |
| 14:15.35 | XorA | buz: move to UK |
| 14:16.22 | Sketch | the price is quite good for an unlocked phone without service |
| 14:16.22 | XorA | Neo is perfect replacement for my HTC Wizard (MDA Vario) |
| 14:17.14 | buz | mind you, neo needs to recoup the money spent on linux implementation, the hardware costs will be paid for by selling winmobile devices by the 100 thousands |
| 14:17.50 | Morgret | buz: I don't think FIC cross-subsidize their spinoff groups. |
| 14:18.16 | buz | thats why it needs to pay for the development of the software |
| 14:18.25 | buz | the hardware is basically there anyhow |
| 14:18.41 | buz | sunk cost really |
| 14:21.05 | buz | besides if fic is smart they will use the buzz created by openmoko to sell other hardware to the OSS crowds |
| 14:21.05 | supastuff | good luck to everyone involved in the project. bye |
| 14:21.05 | *** part/#openmoko supastuff (n=user@38.99.150.203) |
| 14:21.26 | Morgret | Not really. Even though the modules are from other FIC cellphones, the Neo is a new composite of them, and that cost a substantial amount of money to create and get operational. Add in the h/w unitary costs, and the money spent on OM, and it comes out at 4-5 figure sales before the dev costs are recouped. |
| 14:21.59 | buz | Morgret: i'vce been told repeatedly that the VERY SAME device will sell in china as winmobile phone |
| 14:22.00 | Morgret | Just do various back of envelope scenarios. |
| 14:22.19 | buz | sure it needs 5 figure sales |
| 14:22.37 | buz | but 5 figures is not that much on a global scale |
| 14:22.39 | Morgret | buz: and I heard the same. But I have not heard that they will cross-subsidize the OM team. |
| 14:22.51 | buz | they probably wont |
| 14:23.03 | buz | neo needs to pay for its software development |
| 14:23.13 | buz | the hardware would have been built one way or another |
| 14:23.34 | buz | at least that's what any halfway sane way accounting book would tell you |
| 14:23.51 | *** join/#openmoko parag0n (n=parag0n@popeshoe.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 14:24.10 | Morgret | Humans aren't even half sane. :P Projects don't like other groups leaching off them :-) |
| 14:25.09 | buz | so by that logic apple had the nano pay for the whole amount of firmware development again? |
| 14:25.10 | buz | hardly |
| 14:25.17 | buz | (the customers did pay for it, sure) |
| 14:25.40 | Morgret | One possible approach to appease the bean counters to allow cross-project subsidy is to agree that "Whatever you spend on your WinMobile licenses, we will spend on OM." Makes the accounting balanced for shared h/w development. |
| 14:26.20 | *** join/#openmoko Marex (n=Marex@85.132.236.161) |
| 14:27.01 | buz | or you just buy hte phones at the price fic would sell them without winmobile |
| 14:27.15 | Morgret | buz: 99% the costs of Apple projects are spent by the Hype Marketting Dept, aren't they? ;-) |
| 14:30.48 | CM | Morgret: Sorry for the slow reply, was getting some coffee |
| 14:31.10 | Morgret | It's all speculation since we don't know how FIC work. But they do want mom+dad sales in Phase 2, and I'm guessing that it's not just a desire for profit but because the team need to recoup their costs. So we need to look out for mom+dad in our development. |
| 14:31.21 | CM | Someone here, 3 months ago, said that FIC already had an order of 10.000 phones or so for china |
| 14:31.35 | CM | Neo1973 that is, but with win ce on it or something |
| 14:31.42 | CM | I have to see if I can find it |
| 14:31.48 | Morgret | So that would be ..... 0.000000000000000000000000001% of population? ;-) |
| 14:32.12 | CM | Yes, but supposedly it was some government deal or so |
| 14:32.15 | *** join/#openmoko olaf123 (n=staubus@83.181.83.247) |
| 14:36.07 | *** join/#openmoko chrustinho (n=christop@p57B016D0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 14:37.35 | loufoque | why would they want to put win ce on it |
| 14:37.38 | loufoque | that's so stupid |
| 14:37.57 | CM | I have no idea.. Just found one quote from dec 28th: 18:29 <yacc> Well, I've heard some rumors that the FIC phone will be sold as a WinMobile in China. Which would give the Linux version benefits of the huge numbers from the start. |
| 14:38.41 | CM | Can't say where that rumor comes though, and I don't know if it's true |
| 14:38.46 | loufoque | maybe china needs windows to restrict liberty |
| 14:38.51 | yacc | CM: I admit I have no idea where I've got that thing from. I think somebody mentioned that it will be feasible economically because of that dual-use. |
| 14:39.03 | CM | yacc: Yes, that's what I remember too |
| 14:39.29 | CM | Was it in some early mail on the community list maybe? |
| 14:39.32 | yacc | loufoque: Well, one has to admit it, a winmobile is currently way more massmarketable then a new linux phone. |
| 14:39.37 | yacc | CM: think so. |
| 14:39.47 | loufoque | yacc: for what reason ? |
| 14:40.10 | CM | loufoque: Basicly because it's already working |
| 14:40.19 | CM | And has all basic apps ready and tested |
| 14:40.26 | yacc | loufoque: People know it. Assuming that the Neo will be way more usable/cool, it will still take months if not years till some of the mass population hears about it. |
| 14:40.28 | *** join/#openmoko leventhal (n=null@das.komputery.name) |
| 14:40.53 | loufoque | linux is already working, ready and tested. |
| 14:41.56 | *** join/#openmoko PhilKC (i=greece@freenode/staff/about.linux.philkc) |
| 14:42.12 | yacc | loufoque: but not the opensource application stack to be used as a phone. |
| 14:44.59 | *** join/#openmoko mikesh (n=mikesh@x133.net.upc.cz) |
| 14:45.00 | Morgret | Selling well isn't related to the O/S inside. There are a ton of Motorola phones that sell well to people who have no idea that they're Linux inside. Selling well is a matter of business deals with cellphone shops / chains. |
| 14:46.08 | Morgret | There are only a limited number of shelves and stands inside a cellphone shop. Getting your phone on there requires paying for placement. |
| 14:46.27 | yacc | Morgret: Yeah, but the Neo shines on the fact that it's an open smartphone. As a simple phone, it lacks a keyboard. As a smartphone it's probably not yet recognized by the massmarket? |
| 14:46.44 | CM | And it is cheap |
| 14:47.25 | Morgret | I grant you, it does have the benefit for "cheap for an OK unlocked mobile". |
| 14:47.27 | yacc | CM: yeah, it's cheap as a smartphone. It's not so cheap as a simple phone. No EDGE, no UTMS, no MP3 player probably, no WLAN. |
| 14:48.08 | yacc | Morgret: If that's ok depends strongly on the region. E.g. a non-smartphone without a keyboard will have it hard in Europe ;) |
| 14:48.31 | Morgret | Tons of MP3 players, just probably not from FIC since they might not want to pay for the license. Until 2010 anyway. |
| 14:48.51 | CM | I think they'll have to sell it as a GPS phone with a nice screen |
| 14:48.51 | yacc | Morgret: exactly. But the massmarket will take the phone as it is in the shop ;) |
| 14:49.06 | Morgret | yacc: true |
| 14:49.26 | yacc | Yeah, but for GPS being useful, what about a navigation app? None available? To bad. |
| 14:50.01 | yacc | Yeah, I know GPS has a number of other useful uses, but all these are non-classical apps that will probably start being driven by the community. |
| 14:50.07 | buz | tomtom runs on linux natively |
| 14:50.13 | buz | they might port it to neo |
| 14:50.26 | yacc | buz: will they sell it on the Neo, when it gets released? Don't think so. ;) |
| 14:50.31 | stefan_schmidt | http://navit.sourceforge.net/?page=home |
| 14:50.49 | buz | anyway, the app isnt so much a problem as the MAPS |
| 14:51.08 | yacc | buz: exactly. |
| 14:51.44 | loufoque | CM: it's not that cheap. |
| 14:51.52 | yacc | buz: perhaps the cheap Neo will drive a popular digitization campaign (as it becomes easy to register data), but currently the map data is the issue with navigation. |
| 14:51.53 | Morgret | Thanks stefan, downloading and trying with my GPS receiver. |
| 14:52.04 | buz | yacc: i doubt it |
| 14:52.09 | yacc | loufoque: it's cheap. |
| 14:52.10 | buz | seems like too much trouble |
| 14:52.14 | CM | ~change 350 USD to EUR |
| 14:52.15 | *** join/#openmoko silwo1 (n=silwol@193.170.68.74) |
| 14:52.22 | loufoque | yacc: for what reason couldn't it read mp3s ? |
| 14:52.29 | yacc | loufoque: licenses? |
| 14:52.29 | buz | yeah consindering it's not even EDGE and no wlan, it's not that cheap |
| 14:52.33 | buz | then again GPS and VGA are neat |
| 14:52.42 | yacc | loufoque: FIC will not be able to include a free mp3 player. |
| 14:52.44 | CM | It can already, but it uses 30% cpu decoding it |
| 14:53.07 | Morgret | ~change 350 USD to pounds |
| 14:53.08 | yacc | CM: yeah, but FIC cannot include it in the firmware image. |
| 14:53.14 | loufoque | 30% cpu to decode an archaic codec like MP3 ? |
| 14:53.23 | buz | fic could simply license MP3 |
| 14:53.30 | Morgret | ~change 350 USD to UKP |
| 14:53.33 | buz | bseides the MP3 patent is not globally valid |
| 14:53.41 | Morgret | grrrr |
| 14:53.42 | yacc | 270EUR + 19%VAT makes again 320EUR ;) |
| 14:53.43 | CM | ~change 350 USD to GBP |
| 14:53.44 | silwo1 | how about cpu usage for playing ogg-vorbis? |
| 14:53.56 | Morgret | Thanks CM :P |
| 14:54.12 | loufoque | then playing h264 videos is definitely impossible I bet |
| 14:54.15 | yacc | buz: they can simply license it, but then they would have to put a non-GPL program in the firmware, and I think Sean won't like that. |
| 14:54.29 | buz | they already do that |
| 14:54.32 | loufoque | what's the license of libmad ? |
| 14:54.35 | buz | even a NON opensource one |
| 14:54.50 | yacc | buz: we'll see. |
| 14:55.32 | loufoque | AFAIK, libmad decodes MP3 and is GPL licensed |
| 14:56.11 | moo_tang_clan | it's the license of the patent, not the source code, that is the problem |
| 14:56.29 | moo_tang_clan | e.g., the gstreamer mp3 decoder is bsd licensed |
| 14:57.12 | yacc | navit looks cool, even it relies on a commercial DVD to extract the maps. Which might be a tad illegal. |
| 14:57.28 | XorA | its 22% load for the s3c2410 running at 200Mhz, extrapolate that to the neo at 266Mhz |
| 14:58.09 | XorA | and that high figure might be becuase I scewed up somewhere |
| 14:58.19 | yacc | loufoque: basically the first one to legally release a mp3 gpl'ed decoder would make mp3 available to all gpl software, because the GPL basically forces that. |
| 14:58.42 | yacc | XorA: Does the memory interface also scale with the clock? |
| 14:59.04 | XorA | yacc: I think the mem clock stays the same |
| 14:59.26 | yacc | XorA: Then it's hard to scale performance values, isn't it? |
| 15:00.04 | XorA | yacc: why, the decode will take x% less based on clocks per second |
| 15:00.11 | *** join/#openmoko terrex (n=terrex@84-122-63-17.onocable.ono.com) |
| 15:00.55 | yacc | XorA: Yeah, if it fits completly into the caches, and nothing else competes for the cache ;) |
| 15:01.35 | yacc | XorA: scaling performance figures is usually an interesting exercise in calculating useless values :-P |
| 15:01.51 | XorA | well when I get final phone model Ill let you know |
| 15:02.05 | yacc | XorA: *g* :) |
| 15:02.19 | XorA | counter |
| 15:02.19 | aloril | 1 week, 4 days 08:57:40 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 2 days for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 1 week, 6 days for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 15:02.23 | loufoque | people don't pay VAT in the united states ? |
| 15:03.01 | LoRez | loufoque: what's VAT? ;) |
| 15:03.34 | LoRez | (and yes, I'm in the US) |
| 15:03.34 | loufoque | value added tax or something like that |
| 15:03.34 | XorA | LoRez: equiv of Sales Tax |
| 15:03.41 | LoRez | just 3x as high |
| 15:03.46 | XorA | what our theiving bastard government steal off us at the tills |
| 15:03.51 | CM | I think you have it in the us, but it's low. Especially on food and clothes and such |
| 15:04.07 | moo_tang_clan | um, who are people planning on paying the vat to? |
| 15:04.23 | CM | I'll try not to of course |
| 15:04.32 | LoRez | CM: it doesn't usually differ between food and other items here. some places might lower the sales tax on food, but it's not that common |
| 15:04.47 | *** join/#openmoko teryial (n=teryial@c-24-0-59-230.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) |
| 15:04.52 | CM | LoRez: Ah, ok. Just something I read somewhere :) |
| 15:04.54 | loufoque | VAT makes 60% of the money of the french government |
| 15:04.57 | teryial | helo when will this be released |
| 15:05.05 | CM | counter |
| 15:05.05 | aloril | 1 week, 4 days 08:54:54 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 2 days for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 1 week, 6 days for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 15:05.06 | *** join/#openmoko PhilKC (i=greece@freenode/staff/about.linux.philkc) |
| 15:05.23 | yacc | CM: At least mine will be a company phone so I don't have to pay the VAT, or get it back, depending where I'll get it from :) |
| 15:05.43 | fluffs | XorA: memclk (hclk) is scaled from cpu core clk (fclk) |
| 15:05.51 | CM | yacc: Heh, I'm just about to start a company, so maybe I'll order it through it. ;) |
| 15:05.52 | teryial | im guessing it works with cingular |
| 15:06.11 | CM | teryial: Should work with any GSM provider |
| 15:06.34 | teryial | hmm |
| 15:06.41 | teryial | i like thi |
| 15:06.43 | teryial | this |
| 15:06.48 | teryial | i was going for an iphone |
| 15:07.09 | teryial | what is the OS on the phone based on |
| 15:07.22 | yacc | teryial: it's linux ;) |
| 15:07.35 | ssvb | moo_tang_clan: what are Neo graphics chip capabilities? Does it support YUV in hardware? Scaling? |
| 15:07.39 | yacc | teryial: it kind of the point of the exercise ;) |
| 15:07.53 | CM | teryial: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-January/000000.html |
| 15:07.57 | moo_tang_clan | ssvb: no |
| 15:08.03 | moo_tang_clan | ssvb: just what comes on the SoC afiak |
| 15:08.16 | teryial | when it is released to the public where will it be sold |
| 15:08.20 | CM | And thats very slow. No fpu either |
| 15:08.22 | ssvb | moo_tang_clan: I'll check specs then |
| 15:08.46 | teryial | im using bitchx and i cant click the url |
| 15:09.01 | *** join/#openmoko bkuhn (n=bkuhn@fsf/member/bkuhn/bkuhn) |
| 15:09.02 | ssvb | moo_tang_clan: if it soes have any YUV support, Neo may be quite good for video |
| 15:09.14 | ssvb | s/soes/does |
| 15:09.23 | moo_tang_clan | ssvb: i'm pretty sure it doesn't. |
| 15:09.28 | loufoque | teryial: you can buy it on the internet. |
| 15:09.47 | teryial | price public release date? |
| 15:10.05 | loufoque | read what was given to you teryial |
| 15:10.09 | CM | $350 |
| 15:10.33 | teryial | 7 months? |
| 15:10.50 | CM | Yes, that's the official launch date |
| 15:11.20 | teryial | Does it have a terminal |
| 15:11.40 | CM | teryial: Read the announcement |
| 15:11.48 | teryial | okay |
| 15:11.49 | CM | or the wiki that's mentioned in the topic |
| 15:11.56 | teryial | later |
| 15:12.01 | loufoque | a terminal !? What do you mean ? |
| 15:12.03 | XorA | fluffs: ah hello Mr Dooks |
| 15:12.18 | CM | loufoque: Hehe.. |
| 15:12.42 | pH5 | XorA: from the S3C2410A manual it looks like the HCLK scales with the FCLK, both are generated by the same PLL. |
| 15:12.51 | loufoque | I doubt it can be run in text mode, but you should be able to run xterm or anything of the like |
| 15:13.27 | CM | loufoque: mickeyl said it has a shell to start with on lugradio :) |
| 15:13.41 | fluffs | pH5: you are right, there is one pll to generate all but the usb clocks |
| 15:13.53 | pH5 | fluffs: I just noticed that you already said that above :) |
| 15:16.40 | *** join/#openmoko MiniMoose (i=dave@c-24-16-216-41.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
| 15:17.48 | loufoque | the micro-SD slot doesn't seem very accessible |
| 15:18.52 | ssvb | moo_tang_clan: anyway, cpu should be fast enough to watch 320x240 mpeg4 video |
| 15:19.13 | XorA | ssvb: at 15 fps |
| 15:19.24 | loufoque | ssvb: what do you mean by mpeg4 ? |
| 15:19.27 | XorA | ssvb: unless someone improves ffmpeg |
| 15:19.28 | fluffs | loufoque: what are you using for mp3 playback? |
| 15:19.30 | *** join/#openmoko MetaBookfoziS (n=sajt@53d834ca.adsl.enternet.hu) |
| 15:19.35 | ssvb | XorA: most likely at 30 fps |
| 15:19.53 | XorA | ssvb: my smdk2440 doesnt manage that |
| 15:20.20 | loufoque | ssvb: depends on codec and bitrate |
| 15:20.22 | ssvb | XorA: a lot depends on memory throughoutput performance |
| 15:20.55 | XorA | ssvb: its not looking hopeful on the neo |
| 15:21.18 | loufoque | fluffs: is what I use personally to play mp3 really important to you ? |
| 15:21.23 | ssvb | XorA: Nokia 770 can easily handle 320x240 30 fps mpeg4 even without hardware yuv |
| 15:22.10 | fluffs | loufoque: you where talking above about cpu usage for mp3 playback? i thought you where quoting measurments from using an s3c2410? |
| 15:23.21 | *** join/#openmoko pike_ (i=pike@server1.freeshells.ch) |
| 15:23.38 | loufoque | fluffs: I do not own one, so I wouldn't know. |
| 15:24.11 | XorA | ~lart ALSA |
| 15:25.01 | XorA | 3629 root S 2996 2635 22.8 2.3 mplayer |
| 15:25.38 | XorA | that is mplayer using libmad to decode |
| 15:26.22 | *** part/#openmoko pike_ (i=pike@server1.freeshells.ch) |
| 15:26.42 | ssvb | XorA: libmad can be configured for low or high quality, so results may differ |
| 15:27.18 | fluffs | XorA: thanks for the work on ASoC btw |
| 15:27.31 | XorA | fluffs: no probs, I do it for cash :-) |
| 15:27.57 | *** join/#openmoko greysun (i=pike@server1.freeshells.ch) |
| 15:29.20 | *** join/#openmoko Ryushin (i=proxy@windwalker.openinnovations.com) |
| 15:29.56 | XorA | one day I might even make it work without driving me insane |
| 15:31.29 | XorA | fluffs: you attending FOSDEM/Debconf/Guadec? |
| 15:32.38 | fluffs | yes |
| 15:32.58 | fluffs | FOSDEM yes, Debconf no, Guadec? |
| 15:33.38 | lrg | hey fluffs |
| 15:33.55 | lrg | fluffs: I may be at guadec |
| 15:35.23 | lrg | fluffs: they had a nice beach party last year, although Birmingham may be to far away and cold for a beach party |
| 15:38.02 | *** join/#openmoko Jo2 (n=Joe@217-170-144.541110.adsl.tele2.no) |
| 15:40.27 | *** join/#openmoko noidd (n=red@thievery.criticalintegration.com) |
| 15:40.30 | noidd | fuck |
| 15:40.32 | noidd | sorry |
| 15:40.39 | leventhal | eh? |
| 15:40.43 | noidd | I dropped a bottle of water on my mouse |
| 15:40.57 | leventhal | got a dead rodent now? |
| 15:41.00 | noidd | heh |
| 15:41.12 | noidd | It cut + pasted pages of crap to the screen |
| 15:41.22 | loufoque | what doesn't the screen support multi-touch ? Is it a software or a hardware problem ? |
| 15:41.23 | leventhal | we didn't get any of it |
| 15:41.27 | noidd | I'm hoping the irc server flooded me out before it spewed too much crap |
| 15:41.32 | noidd | Good! |
| 15:41.36 | Jo2 | Why do the people working with Openmoko think GPRS is 2.5G? |
| 15:41.36 | leventhal | 10:39 -!- PhilKC [i=greece@freenode/staff/about.linux.philkc] has quit ["."] |
| 15:41.37 | leventhal | 10:40 -!- noidd [n=red@thievery.criticalintegration.com] has quit [Excess Flood] |
| 15:41.45 | Jo2 | EDGE is 2.5G |
| 15:41.46 | Clint | Jo2: what do you think it is? |
| 15:42.06 | XorA | EDGE = 2.75G |
| 15:42.14 | Jo2 | nope, sorry |
| 15:42.16 | Clint | 2.25G |
| 15:42.29 | Jo2 | GPRS is 2G |
| 15:42.33 | Jo2 | always has been |
| 15:42.42 | loufoque | not at all. |
| 15:42.44 | Jo2 | Looks like someone got their wires crossed a bit |
| 15:42.45 | loufoque | GPRS is 2.5G |
| 15:42.53 | loufoque | EDGE is actually closer to 3G |
| 15:43.02 | loufoque | but it's still called 2.5G |
| 15:43.02 | Sketch | EDGE = 2.71828183G |
| 15:43.07 | Jo2 | If you only thinkg speed compared to 3g |
| 15:43.17 | Jo2 | I mean compared to UMTS |
| 15:43.19 | Jo2 | hehe |
| 15:43.29 | loufoque | EDGE is indeed called 2.75G sometimes. |
| 15:43.35 | loufoque | see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2.5G |
| 15:43.35 | Jo2 | they are fairly close there, but not the technology |
| 15:43.45 | Jo2 | Never heard of it refered to as 2.75 |
| 15:43.56 | XorA | I just made that up BTW |
| 15:43.58 | Jo2 | Maybe that is in the US? |
| 15:44.01 | XorA | but GPRS is solidly 2.5G |
| 15:44.51 | Jo2 | Really strange to see this terminology get twisted these last few years |
| 15:45.21 | loufoque | I didn't know WiiMax was actually 4G |
| 15:45.22 | Jo2 | EDGE was a solution between 2G and 3G...while we waited for real 3G |
| 15:45.31 | Jo2 | WiMax 4G? |
| 15:45.57 | Jo2 | I think the G's are being abused and contorted for marketing |
| 15:46.19 | Clint | do they have a purpose besides marketing? |
| 15:46.37 | Jo2 | Marketing is one think...abuse is another. ;) |
| 15:46.57 | XorA | ~troll |
| 15:47.06 | apt | [troll] a race on some muds; a guy under a bridge: an annoying robot; a port scanner, or somebody faking being clueless to be shown the One Linux Way so he can argue against it for his psychology thesis on linux advocates, or an employee of trolltech, or at http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2001/7/27/51233/2979 or http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/entry/troll.html |
| 15:47.07 | loufoque | G's just group mobile protocols together |
| 15:47.26 | loufoque | Sketch: what's 3.5G ? |
| 15:48.06 | loufoque | HSDPA ? |
| 15:48.23 | Jo2 | Isn't HPSDA (hope that is close) 3.5G |
| 15:48.40 | Jo2 | Yeah, I was close |
| 15:48.47 | Sketch | loufoque: according to wikipediat it is |
| 15:48.58 | Jo2 | nbd? Been a while... |
| 15:49.07 | loufoque | I never ever even had 3G |
| 15:49.23 | Jo2 | Have to check out the laste |
| 15:49.30 | noidd | XorA: my Treo 650 is able to download data while I am on a voice call. |
| 15:49.38 | noidd | So you know what protocol / speed it likely uses? |
| 15:49.41 | Jo2 | check out the latest QoS script sometime ;) |
| 15:50.05 | loufoque | my mobile provider is charging more for anything above GPRS |
| 15:50.21 | nbd | Jo2: it's going to get a redesign in the next few days |
| 15:50.27 | Jo2 | Here in Norway we pay per KB regardless of technology |
| 15:50.47 | Jo2 | Joe |
| 15:51.06 | Jo2 | forgot to log in |
| 15:51.12 | *** join/#openmoko tomjoad4400 (n=tomjoad4@adsl-70-130-201-119.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net) |
| 15:52.34 | Jo2 | Hmm, doesn't like my password anymore |
| 15:52.42 | XorA | noidd: probably GPRS or later |
| 15:53.04 | XorA | noidd: my HTC Wizard can surf and talk too |
| 15:53.14 | Jo2 | It talks? Nice. :D |
| 15:54.16 | Jo2 | has the developer launch been delayed, btw? |
| 15:56.41 | l3010o | counter |
| 15:56.41 | aloril | 1 week, 4 days 08:03:18 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 2 days for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 1 week, 6 days for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 15:57.53 | loufoque | when will the price of the neo1973 be cut in half ? |
| 15:58.08 | l3010o | why say so? |
| 15:59.20 | loufoque | $350 is still expensive for a phone |
| 15:59.34 | *** join/#openmoko MiniMoose (i=dave@c-24-16-216-41.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
| 15:59.41 | parag0n | no its not |
| 15:59.54 | l3010o | treat it as a smartphone |
| 15:59.56 | l3010o | :) |
| 16:00.02 | parag0n | with no carrier subsidies, thats really cheap for a smartphone |
| 16:00.02 | loufoque | the last phone I bought cost me $1 |
| 16:00.46 | SpeedEvil | With subsidy? |
| 16:00.46 | robtaylor | loufoque: you didn't actually buy it though, i'd be willing to bet |
| 16:01.07 | loufoque | it was a phone though, not a smart phone |
| 16:01.15 | l3010o | but $1 isn't the cost of the hardware |
| 16:01.16 | SpeedEvil | How do I add an idea page on the wiki? I see no 'create phone' link. |
| 16:01.37 | SpeedEvil | err |
| 16:01.42 | SpeedEvil | 'create page'. |
| 16:01.45 | *** join/#openmoko PhilKC (i=greece@freenode/staff/about.linux.philkc) |
| 16:02.45 | l3010o | how to get an account in wiki.openmoko.org ?? |
| 16:02.58 | SpeedEvil | Click the 'login'/register link |
| 16:04.13 | noidd | SpeedEvil: :-P |
| 16:05.02 | *** join/#openmoko apakatt (n=apakatt@89.207.216.81.static.j.siw.siwnet.net) |
| 16:05.03 | l3010o | from where? |
| 16:05.30 | LittleIdiot | *sigh* another entry to my ignore-list... |
| 16:07.32 | *** join/#openmoko stelt (n=stelt@213.211.163.68) |
| 16:07.35 | *** join/#openmoko [g2] (n=g2@nslu2-linux/g2) |
| 16:09.20 | stelt | anybody here know what sites the SMS-like-crazy youngsters hang out ? |
| 16:09.33 | *** join/#openmoko mintee (n=mintee@72-165-177-90.dia.static.qwest.net) |
| 16:10.07 | mintee | Still looking at a few weeks launch for the Neo1973 ? |
| 16:10.19 | XorA | ~gibber |
| 16:10.37 | *** join/#openmoko MetaBookfoziS (n=sajt@53d834ca.adsl.enternet.hu) |
| 16:10.57 | mjr | counter |
| 16:10.58 | aloril | 1 week, 4 days 07:49:02 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 2 days for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 1 week, 6 days for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 16:11.30 | mintee | danka |
| 16:11.56 | joebush | Will the Neo use the USB connection to a PC for network? Would be a shame if installed were forced through a GPRS connection. |
| 16:12.16 | joebush | installs... |
| 16:12.33 | *** join/#openmoko xerom (n=jack@bl4-145-146.dsl.telepac.pt) |
| 16:12.37 | mjr | there has been talk of usbnet from the start, dunno about the status of official support though |
| 16:12.59 | yacc | joebush: it's a Linux box, so you can probably do all kinds of nifty connections: USB, BT, GPRS come immediatly to mind. |
| 16:13.04 | fluffs | the current kernel gadget supoport sems to have problems with XP |
| 16:13.08 | mjr | and there's BT, which, if not readily supported for BT connectivity, I'll hack together if somebody doesn't beat me to it |
| 16:13.48 | mjr | for IP connectivity, I mean |
| 16:15.37 | joebush | Sure, just wondering how it is configured by default. |
| 16:16.28 | *** part/#openmoko mintee (n=mintee@72-165-177-90.dia.static.qwest.net) |
| 16:16.36 | joebush | Don't want to have to install some basics over GPRS...it's really expensive here |
| 16:16.48 | joebush | about $2 per MB |
| 16:16.53 | mjr | I seem to recall, from the times when BT was not on the spec list, that FIC intended to make the GPRS usable from a computer via usbnet, so I'd suspect usbnet would be in per def. But I don't _know_. |
| 16:16.54 | *** join/#openmoko dyrne (i=pike@server1.freeshells.ch) |
| 16:17.08 | joebush | hope so :) |
| 16:17.25 | aloril | you can always copy stuff to micro-SD |
| 16:17.26 | mjr | also, recall that you can plug in a separately powered usb disk :] |
| 16:17.37 | joebush | true!!!! didn't even occur to me |
| 16:17.39 | joebush | nice |
| 16:17.39 | aloril | probably highest bandwidth by far ;-) |
| 16:17.45 | joebush | hehe, I agree |
| 16:17.58 | XorA | even if its not the default option which I think it is, modprobe g-ether will be all thats required to make it work |
| 16:19.21 | joebush | what is g-ether for? |
| 16:19.30 | XorA | gadget ethernet |
| 16:19.54 | joebush | umm, which gadget? hehe |
| 16:20.27 | XorA | joebush: means your Neo looks like a usb ethernet device |
| 16:21.14 | joebush | Oh, but that would make the device access internet though GPRS (for example) to connect a machine to the internet though the Neo |
| 16:21.45 | joebush | Unless I've misunderstood |
| 16:21.53 | *** join/#openmoko bkuhn (n=bkuhn@fsf/member/bkuhn/bkuhn) |
| 16:25.33 | mjr | doesn't it show as a regular network interface on the gadget side as well? As in, you can route/nat the other end forwards via gprs, or just use it for the gadget's internet connectivity, how you will? |
| 16:28.47 | *** join/#openmoko TimRiker (n=timr@216.49.181.128) |
| 16:28.49 | mjr | (of course, as long as the host end is willing to route as well) |
| 16:29.27 | *** join/#openmoko cying (n=cying@adsl-75-41-112-24.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) |
| 16:29.40 | joebush | it's really a shame they didn't implement wireless in this version |
| 16:30.22 | mjr | <dumb-mode> but they have two types of wireless in it, what're you talking about? |
| 16:30.37 | fluffs | getting hold of open wifi chips is just hard |
| 16:30.41 | joebush | 802.11 |
| 16:31.07 | joebush | 2 types? |
| 16:31.25 | mjr | gsm/gprs (counts as one, really) and bluetooth |
| 16:31.29 | joebush | oh, gprs....only thought of BT |
| 16:32.14 | mjr | and yes, we'd all like it to do everything, but this is a good compromise for now, imao |
| 16:33.10 | joebush | Well, I think missing wifi is a big disadvantage. |
| 16:33.36 | joebush | could have had fun with olsr :D |
| 16:34.38 | mjr | yeeeah, 'cause having our phones be olsr nodes wouldn't drain their batteries in half an hour ;) |
| 16:35.02 | *** join/#openmoko koen|edge_ (n=koen@ip5652fe27.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl) |
| 16:35.06 | joebush | Hey, don't ruin ot for me :p |
| 16:35.10 | joebush | it |
| 16:35.34 | mjr | mind you, it _would_ be cool |
| 16:35.41 | joebush | :D |
| 16:35.44 | *** join/#openmoko bkuhn (n=bkuhn@fsf/member/bkuhn/bkuhn) |
| 16:35.52 | *** join/#openmoko koen|edge__ (n=koen@vpn006102.vpn.utwente.nl) |
| 16:35.52 | marcellus | "Why? Because we can." |
| 16:35.56 | joebush | half hour of bliss hehe |
| 16:36.39 | mjr | an ad-hoc comms network that relays voip calls through other phones in the near vicinity, mm-m |
| 16:36.50 | joebush | hehehe |
| 16:37.06 | joebush | not a bad idea at all |
| 16:37.37 | joebush | would it be possible to set up an ad-hoc network with bluetooth?? |
| 16:37.43 | mjr | (of course, then we'd use zrtp for security) |
| 16:37.49 | mjr | yes it is actually |
| 16:37.53 | joebush | hmmm |
| 16:37.55 | mjr | though the range is lesser |
| 16:38.05 | aloril | can always add battery powered usb hub + usb wifi dongle |
| 16:38.24 | XorA | koen|wifi: not on a neo then :-D |
| 16:38.25 | Tv | $mjr =~ s/n ad-.*k/ malware/; |
| 16:38.37 | joebush | maybe the microSD port will be SDIO compatible and an adapter will be released? :o |
| 16:39.03 | koen|wifi | XorA: :D |
| 16:39.23 | Sketch | i don't think there is any linux support for SDIO |
| 16:39.23 | mjr | joebush, have fun with your 64 meg on-board flash in that case |
| 16:39.47 | joebush | mrj: plenty of space |
| 16:39.56 | mjr | Tv, :] |
| 16:40.01 | joebush | oooo |
| 16:40.38 | mjr | Tv, I didn't mean by hacking them, but a kind of co-operative routing network where if you can reach your destination through the ad-hoc net, the call is routed there :] |
| 16:40.54 | Sketch | http://tuxmobil.org/sdio_linux.html |
| 16:40.56 | Tv | co-operative, yes yes ;) |
| 16:41.01 | Ycros | I was just looking at an sdio wifi card about 20mins ago that was claiming "windows and linux support" |
| 16:41.03 | Sketch | i guess there is at least some 3rd party sdio support now |
| 16:41.29 | Tv | Ycros: that doesn't mean the drivers actually work, are open, or will work with your kernel |
| 16:41.33 | Tv | +are |
| 16:41.54 | Ycros | Tv: indeed. |
| 16:41.56 | koen|wifi | sdio insists on pnp support, which is on the verge of being removed from the kernel |
| 16:41.57 | joebush | if it's atheros based .... |
| 16:42.35 | aloril | micro SD is under battery |
| 16:42.58 | joebush | what? |
| 16:43.23 | joebush | Doh! |
| 16:43.23 | joebush | That was a bright move |
| 16:43.25 | mjr | he said, "micro SD is under battery" :] |
| 16:43.34 | Sketch | that'd be an interesting adapter |
| 16:44.01 | joebush | Can't imagine why they would do that, to be honest |
| 16:44.14 | joebush | That move has been slaughtered before with other vendors |
| 16:44.22 | joebush | manufacturers |
| 16:44.29 | Tv | joebush: because that's what the SiC has. |
| 16:44.32 | Tv | SoC |
| 16:44.57 | *** join/#openmoko xerom (n=jack@81.193.130.71) |
| 16:45.00 | joebush | that shouldn't required certain placement of the SD reader |
| 16:45.05 | mjr | actually it's not the SoC, but they do use a combo sim/microsd reader, which probably limit placement |
| 16:45.10 | hrw|gone | space reason |
| 16:45.30 | hrw|gone | cu |
| 16:45.34 | mjr | hrw|gone, also possible, or are you official? :) |
| 16:45.37 | joebush | well, makes it quite inconvenient for copying using the card |
| 16:45.37 | Tv | ah, yes, not SoC |
| 16:45.56 | Tv | s/SoC/pre-existing component used in the design/ |
| 16:46.08 | Tv | apt: silly |
| 16:46.18 | apt | somebody said silly was 'a good question, the answer to which is "yes, i am"' |
| 16:46.19 | mjr | hehe |
| 16:46.28 | Tv | apt: yes, you are |
| 16:46.48 | mjr | joebush, it does, and I do agree it would be nicer for some uses if it were more accessible |
| 16:47.23 | mjr | however, what with usb, bt and gprs transfer options, the need to actually be swapping the card is mitigated somewhat, IMAO |
| 16:47.35 | joebush | anyone know if it suppors the newer SD standard (the name escapes me) for card 4GB and greater |
| 16:47.41 | Tv | I've never taken out the card in my current phone |
| 16:47.46 | mjr | (also, one doesn't really want to tinker with those microsds more than absolutely necessary) |
| 16:48.09 | mjr | Tv, I have, to swap for a bigger one ;] |
| 16:48.09 | joebush | I'm afraid of losing it every time I take mine out :D |
| 16:48.54 | joebush | I've had bigger pimples |
| 16:48.56 | mjr | currently I have an n-gage, which happily exposes the sd - no, wait the mmc rather than sd - as usb-storage |
| 16:49.50 | joebush | Hmm, that would fix it... |
| 16:50.14 | mjr | though usb-storage is a bit kludigsh as it requires unmounting on the gadget side; I'd rather on the Neo that it'd serve eg. nfs over the usbnet :) |
| 16:50.20 | joebush | selecting USB connection profile |
| 16:50.50 | *** join/#openmoko koen|wifi_ (n=koen@ip5652fe27.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl) |
| 16:50.55 | joebush | USBdrive mode opening the flash and SD |
| 16:51.13 | mjr | yes, that would be a good option still, for the sd |
| 16:51.22 | mjr | for the flash, not so sure, because of said unmounting issue :] |
| 16:51.37 | koen|wifi_ | it does force the phone to unmount the card |
| 16:51.41 | joebush | It's seems so obvious now I have to assume they've thought of it. |
| 16:52.14 | mjr | incidentally |
| 16:52.39 | mjr | if one hooks up a camera to the unpowered Neo, with Neo in host mode |
| 16:53.11 | mjr | would the camera generally happily operate on its own power and serve up images over the usb, or do they tend to require power via usb when they're communicating? |
| 16:53.31 | joebush | well, if it doesn't have an external power source... |
| 16:53.32 | Tv | mjr: depends on camera |
| 16:53.41 | mjr | the obvious answer would seem to be "sure they'd work", but as unpowered usb is somewhat nonstandard, I'm wary |
| 16:53.55 | joebush | haven't heard of a cam yet that worked unpowered. |
| 16:53.55 | mjr | Tv, yeah... |
| 16:54.15 | mjr | joebush, I meant a digital pocket camera that has its own internal power source |
| 16:54.27 | joebush | Ok, in that case it should be ok |
| 16:55.04 | *** join/#openmoko MetaBookfoziS (n=sajt@53d834ca.adsl.enternet.hu) |
| 16:55.13 | mjr | yeah, that's my gut feeling too, but the camera might not expect to be plugged into an unpowered usb port |
| 16:55.27 | mjr | so, perhaps the "check before buying" rule will apply ;] |
| 16:55.35 | joebush | possible, but what about an unpowered usb hub? |
| 16:55.46 | joebush | shouldn't be any different |
| 16:56.00 | joebush | if it isn't supported by the camera I would be a bit disappointed |
| 16:56.05 | mjr | they do still relay power from uplink, don't they? just can only provide in total what the uplink provides |
| 16:56.17 | mjr | (minus overhead) |
| 16:56.33 | joebush | anything is possible, I guess.... |
| 16:56.52 | joebush | would be disappointing, nonetheless. |
| 16:57.07 | mjr | Yes it would. Still, try before you buy etc. |
| 16:57.08 | joebush | Don't have one now to try though |
| 16:57.34 | mjr | I do. Have a camera. But no Neo ;I |
| 16:57.54 | joebush | ahh, but you can unplug a usb hub and see if it works oujt |
| 16:57.54 | mjr | (an old crappy cam, not really useful anymore, as battery almost useless also, but anyway) |
| 16:58.01 | Tv | mjr: hmm, an usb adapter that cuts the power pins |
| 16:58.31 | mjr | Tv, that would do it |
| 16:58.55 | *** join/#openmoko pleemans (n=peter@d51A5E76A.access.telenet.be) |
| 16:58.55 | mjr | joebush, that I wouldn't count on, as the hub may want its outside power for basic operation too, and besides, don't have one :] |
| 16:59.34 | mjr | anyway, I'll wait for my Neo (in phase 1), was just pre-wondering |
| 16:59.40 | joebush | mine works unpowered at least |
| 16:59.59 | joebush | as far as I recall.... |
| 17:00.17 | *** join/#openmoko KaZeR (n=kazer@225.204.98-84.rev.gaoland.net) |
| 17:00.20 | joebush | been interesting....thanks for the talk |
| 17:00.21 | mjr | joebush, if it works as passive, then it might relay power from the uplink, so again not a valid comparison unless you know what exactly is going on in the hub... |
| 17:00.36 | joebush | hmm, true enough |
| 17:00.51 | joebush | then again.... |
| 17:00.59 | joebush | the Neo claims to be an unpowered host |
| 17:01.10 | mjr | now, if someone has a nokia 770 they could try it... |
| 17:01.11 | joebush | so it would have to have the same functionality as an unpowered hub |
| 17:01.16 | mjr | (also having unpowered host) |
| 17:01.24 | mjr | no it wouldn't |
| 17:01.25 | joebush | otherwise it is like the Universal |
| 17:01.42 | joebush | which won't work as host because of the power concern |
| 17:02.35 | joebush | Which is why they don't claim host functionality |
| 17:02.48 | joebush | which the Neo apparently does |
| 17:02.49 | mjr | mm |
| 17:03.05 | joebush | Just my 2 cents...... |
| 17:03.08 | joebush | gotta run |
| 17:03.11 | joebush | thanks again |
| 17:03.21 | mjr | well, neo doesn't claim standard usb host func., since that would require power |
| 17:03.27 | mjr | therefore qualified with "unpowered" |
| 17:03.44 | joebush | right...like a hub ;) |
| 17:03.52 | joebush | unpowered hub |
| 17:04.08 | mjr | and therefore raising these questions about how other gadgets will deal with connecting to an unpowered host even if they have internal power |
| 17:04.20 | joebush | UYsing a powered HUB |
| 17:04.30 | *** join/#openmoko christoph_ (n=christop@p57B003CB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 17:04.36 | mjr | 'cause, you know, if some smart coder has put in a check there "if getting power from usb, then go into usb communications mode" |
| 17:04.41 | mjr | we're screwed :] |
| 17:04.42 | joebush | Otherwise the Neo couldn't even connect to a usb pen |
| 17:05.17 | mjr | and the coder wouldn't really be wrong, since standard usb hosts have to provide power |
| 17:05.26 | mjr | just... unflexible |
| 17:05.46 | mjr | but that's enough of that |
| 17:06.02 | joebush | I don't think unpowered necessarily means no power....but this is a new area |
| 17:06.31 | mjr | will be checking things out with available gadgets during phase 1 :] |
| 17:06.32 | joebush | I think (hope) things will work out |
| 17:06.44 | joebush | hehe, can't wait for the launch |
| 17:06.48 | *** join/#openmoko lrg_ (n=liam@87.246.78.28) |
| 17:06.52 | joebush | march :( |
| 17:06.55 | mjr | I do too suppose that most self-powered gadgets would work |
| 17:07.08 | mjr | just that if some don't, it's not really their fault |
| 17:07.09 | *** join/#openmoko johnny67 (n=johnny67@nvg1-01.yvr.sxip.com) |
| 17:07.34 | joebush | webcams though a powered hub too...things should be just fine. :) We'll see soon enough |
| 17:07.53 | joebush | really gotta run..... : |
| 17:07.54 | mjr | yeah, a powered hub in between should make things all right, of course |
| 17:07.58 | mjr | go, run, shoo |
| 17:08.02 | joebush | thanks :D |
| 17:08.05 | *** part/#openmoko joebush (n=Joe@217-170-144.541110.adsl.tele2.no) |
| 17:08.11 | *** join/#openmoko johnny67 (n=johnny67@nvg1-01.yvr.sxip.com) |
| 17:08.51 | loufoque | you want to carry around a powered usb hub, a webcam, and an external hdd ? |
| 17:09.11 | mjr | (hmm, strictly speaking, any ol' hub wouldn't probably _have_ to work with an unpowered host either, but it won't probably be a problem to find a working one in practice...) |
| 17:09.39 | mjr | no :] |
| 17:10.19 | *** join/#openmoko lrg__ (n=liam@lumison.wolfsonmicro.com) |
| 17:11.12 | mjr | which incidentally started this, as I was wondering whether a self-powered gadget, such as a digital pocket cam, would on the average be willing to talk to an unpowered host, such as the neo |
| 17:11.45 | mjr | which, I think, concluded with something like "seems likely, but since it's non-standard, better watch out a bit" |
| 17:13.59 | SpeedEvil | Look for the USB 'on the go' standard. |
| 17:14.02 | SpeedEvil | AIUI. |
| 17:14.27 | SpeedEvil | Hmm. |
| 17:14.33 | SpeedEvil | I happen to have a datapoint. |
| 17:14.52 | SpeedEvil | I have an unpowered USB port on my cardbus PCMCIA card. |
| 17:15.05 | SpeedEvil | And a powered belkin hub. |
| 17:15.31 | SpeedEvil | If I plug the hub into the port, it is not recognised until I connect the +5V supply. |
| 17:15.46 | SpeedEvil | At which point the belkin hub wakes up, and will talk to the host. |
| 17:15.52 | SpeedEvil | Even if power is then removed. |
| 17:16.13 | mjr | ack |
| 17:16.42 | mjr | and I was under the impression that usb on-the-go didn't adress completely unpowered hosts, but this may be false as it was not gathered from primary sources |
| 17:16.51 | SpeedEvil | I don't have any other powered hubs. |
| 17:17.40 | SpeedEvil | AIUI, it's not completely unpowered though. |
| 17:18.00 | SpeedEvil | It has no VCC line, but the data lines are normal for a host/device |
| 17:18.06 | SpeedEvil | I don't know how that works. |
| 17:21.58 | *** join/#openmoko tuxmaniac (n=aanjhan@unaffiliated/tuxmaniac) |
| 17:23.45 | *** join/#openmoko dneary_afk (n=dneary@84.5.60.17) |
| 17:23.58 | mjr | from a quick usb-otg-read, seems that it must provide at least 8mA power as host (and use the new mini-AB socket, which IIRC Neo doesn't) |
| 17:24.01 | mjr | ah well |
| 17:24.24 | *** join/#openmoko tr2x (n=alvar@80-218-185-55.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 17:25.12 | mjr | I don't mind the non-standardness here as there are practical reasons for it, and most of the time the device is used in gadget mode anyway, the slightly nonstandard host mode being just a bonus :] |
| 17:28.26 | *** join/#openmoko incinerator (n=sabine@82-41-24-164.cable.ubr04.edin.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 17:32.29 | *** join/#openmoko bursuc17 (n=fff@203.Red-83-53-24.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) |
| 17:33.59 | aloril | counter |
| 17:33.59 | aloril | 1 week, 4 days 06:26:01 (11.27 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 4 days (39.27 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 1 week, 4 days (223.27 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 17:34.40 | aloril | though 2007-01-10 is counted as 1 month + additional less than 24h time |
| 17:35.29 | mjr | Almost 40 days? Life is not worth living anymore! Where's my kayak? |
| 17:35.36 | aloril | and 2007-01-11 00:01 is then 3 weeks and 6 days 23:59:59 ;-) |
| 17:35.46 | MetaBookfoziS | for all developers means anybody can buy that? |
| 17:35.54 | mjr | MetaBookfoziS, yes, it means that |
| 17:35.56 | aloril | MetaBookfoziS: yes |
| 17:36.03 | MetaBookfoziS | cool. |
| 17:36.20 | mjr | it juts emphasizes that it's aimed at developers rather than end users, and everything might not be as smooth as in an end-user product |
| 17:36.25 | mjr | just |
| 17:36.55 | aloril | that preorder bit: Sean said in some mail in community mailing list that there will be preorders |
| 17:37.01 | koen|wifi_ | mickeyl: http://www.tigert.com/archives/2007/01/30/new-maemo-development-theme/ |
| 17:37.06 | MetaBookfoziS | i need to work in the next 1m1w:/ to get one:D |
| 17:37.12 | koen|wifi_ | mickeyl: " Install cacher first, the theme depends on it. (It generates some gtkrc cache that speeds things up when starting applications..)" |
| 17:37.48 | *** join/#openmoko lrg_ (n=liam@87.246.78.28) |
| 17:39.12 | *** join/#openmoko lrg (n=liam@lumison.wolfsonmicro.com) |
| 17:41.39 | *** join/#openmoko koen_ (n=koen@vpn007025.vpn.utwente.nl) |
| 17:46.55 | mjr | apropos voip, noticed that there's a free zrtp implementation in Twinkle; http://www.twinklephone.com/ |
| 17:47.30 | *** join/#openmoko dyrne (i=pike@server1.freeshells.ch) |
| 17:47.48 | mjr | as zrtp is "the shit" for open secure voip, one would need that for the moko :] Wonder if I've too much time... |
| 17:48.14 | *** join/#openmoko rejo1 (n=rejon@adsl-75-5-124-98.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) |
| 17:54.06 | *** join/#openmoko jessta_ (n=jessta@203-214-97-210.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 17:54.33 | mjr | ah, the stuff comes from gnu's ccrtp library originally |
| 17:54.34 | *** join/#openmoko PierreTramo (n=gcarrier@sitlib.org) |
| 17:54.45 | PierreTramo | hi everybody! |
| 17:56.52 | *** join/#openmoko zipola (n=zipola@zip.kortex.jyu.fi) |
| 18:01.09 | *** join/#openmoko nonick01 (n=chatzill@168.226.105.73) |
| 18:05.02 | nonick01 | a question: openmoko will be only for smartphones or can be also be used for normal phones designs? |
| 18:07.05 | PierreTramo | nonick01: doesn't depend on the open source project, i guess |
| 18:07.46 | PierreTramo | nonick01: but as it's based on a linux kernel, it's supposed to run on "powerful" hardware |
| 18:08.33 | PierreTramo | nonick01: powerfull hardware being crap after a few year :) |
| 18:09.18 | yacc | nonick01: define smartphone ;) |
| 18:10.16 | mjr | yeah well |
| 18:10.27 | mjr | if the phone can run openmoko, I'd probably call it smart ;) |
| 18:10.45 | nonick01 | I mean if openmoko will have support for non-touchscreen phones for future low-end phones |
| 18:11.42 | mjr | good question; personally in a guessing capacity I'd say it probably isn't the first order of business to go non-touchscreen, as the interface seems to be rather touchy-oriented |
| 18:12.02 | PierreTramo | yep it seems :) |
| 18:13.04 | stefan_schmidt | nonick01: There are already ideas about non-Touchscreen phones. But it is still needed that linux kernel can run on it. |
| 18:13.10 | mjr | ie. would require major tweaking; not impossible, of course, as nothing is on a properly open platform |
| 18:13.42 | stefan_schmidt | nonick01: Phones with windows ce and symbian have better chances then normal feature phones. |
| 18:14.40 | PierreTramo | how can we work on the interface now? |
| 18:14.46 | PierreTramo | is there some "emulator" to work on the GUI? |
| 18:15.13 | mjr | counter |
| 18:15.13 | aloril | 1 week, 4 days 05:44:46 (11.24 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 4 days (39.24 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 1 week, 4 days (223.24 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 18:15.24 | mjr | the source will be released on phase 0 |
| 18:15.44 | mjr | after that, you should be able to run it with reasonable precision on eg. xoo and, if necessary, qemu |
| 18:16.10 | stefan_schmidt | PierreTramo: Just compile it for x86 and work with it on you host. Perhaps with xoo. Afterwards compile for arm and that's it. |
| 18:16.24 | mjr | (qemu if using native arm binaries and not x86-compiled) |
| 18:21.39 | yacc | ??xoo |
| 18:22.09 | stefan_schmidt | yacc: http://projects.o-hand.com/xoo |
| 18:22.25 | yacc | stefan_schmidt: thx |
| 18:22.35 | stefan_schmidt | np |
| 18:22.51 | yacc | stefan_schmidt: Xnest on steroids ;) |
| 18:23.06 | stefan_schmidt | :) |
| 18:24.32 | PierreTramo | stefan_schmidt: is there a wiki for the project? |
| 18:25.00 | stefan_schmidt | PierreTramo: topic |
| 18:25.04 | PierreTramo | stefan_schmidt: thx, sorry |
| 18:25.16 | PierreTramo | stefan_schmidt: didn't find the time to read it, i answered directly :) |
| 18:25.23 | stefan_schmidt | heh |
| 18:25.41 | *** join/#openmoko terrex (n=terrex@84-122-63-17.onocable.ono.com) |
| 18:25.59 | *** join/#openmoko terrex (n=terrex@84-122-63-17.onocable.ono.com) |
| 18:26.16 | PierreTramo | wow, $350 :( |
| 18:26.34 | PierreTramo | too expensive for me :D |
| 18:27.08 | *** join/#openmoko Tv (n=tv@38.98.1.19) |
| 18:27.15 | yacc | PierreTramo: it's not that expensive for an unlocked smartphone without a contract. |
| 18:30.27 | PierreTramo | yacc: yup, but i can't afford it :) |
| 18:30.44 | PierreTramo | yacc: i just can't... |
| 18:31.22 | PierreTramo | yacc: but i'll have fun developing software for it ;) |
| 18:31.28 | stefan_schmidt | PierreTramo: If xou can wait until september, you could have luck and find a provider that give it to you with a contract |
| 18:31.45 | PierreTramo | stefan_schmidt: yup, i can dream :) |
| 18:31.48 | PierreTramo | stefan_schmidt: i'm from france |
| 18:32.03 | yacc | stefan_schmidt: the question is if it will be that widely in circulation. |
| 18:32.09 | PierreTramo | bluetooth got included... great! |
| 18:32.22 | yacc | PierreTramo: What's the VAT level in .fr? |
| 18:32.34 | PierreTramo | 19.6 |
| 18:32.43 | *** join/#openmoko eLocus (n=eLocus@217.118.92.3) |
| 18:33.14 | stefan_schmidt | yacc: I have really no idea how many provider will pick it up. That's marketing stuff. :) |
| 18:33.23 | ynezz | it'll be available for $350 in EU also? |
| 18:33.40 | PierreTramo | ynezz: worldwide |
| 18:33.54 | PierreTramo | ynezz: so it will be ~ 280eur plus shipping |
| 18:34.13 | *** join/#openmoko nonick01_ (n=chatzill@168.226.106.189) |
| 18:34.23 | yacc | PierreTramo: Don't forget the VAT. |
| 18:34.26 | ynezz | 262EUR |
| 18:34.30 | PierreTramo | yacc: thx |
| 18:34.38 | ynezz | if it's in EU we don't need to pay VAT |
| 18:34.39 | yacc | PierreTramo: sorry ;) |
| 18:34.52 | yacc | ynezz: yeah, but the importer needs to pay the VAT for you ;) |
| 18:34.59 | yacc | ynezz: it's $350 in .tw |
| 18:34.59 | PierreTramo | http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%28350*1.196%29+USD+in+EUR |
| 18:35.18 | PierreTramo | yacc: i guess it's 350 plus taxes |
| 18:35.27 | yacc | $350 plus taxes. |
| 18:35.28 | PierreTramo | (350 * 1.19600) * U.S. dollar = 323.918595 Euros |
| 18:35.40 | yacc | USD is about 0.8 EUR or so. |
| 18:36.02 | yacc | (I did not check the current rate, these vary, but it has been so for the last year more or less like that :( ) |
| 18:36.21 | ynezz | you don't need to pay a VAT in .fr |
| 18:36.24 | ynezz | do you? |
| 18:36.26 | PierreTramo | 0.77381413 |
| 18:36.39 | PierreTramo | USD 1 = EUR 0.774 ;) |
| 18:36.44 | ynezz | if it will be available from .de reseller |
| 18:36.44 | PierreTramo | 350*1.196*0.77381413 |
| 18:36.44 | PierreTramo | 323.91859481 |
| 18:37.01 | yacc | ynezz: naturally, VAT exists in all EU countries ;) |
| 18:37.05 | PierreTramo | ynezz: nop, if the deutch VAT is payed ;) |
| 18:37.10 | PierreTramo | ynezz: and it's 20% |
| 18:37.22 | PierreTramo | ynezz: not 19.6 :) |
| 18:37.31 | yacc | PierreTramo: the german one is 19%, the austrian is 20%. |
| 18:37.53 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@24.crcr10.xdsl.nauticom.net) |
| 18:38.12 | ynezz | i think, that you can get .de VAT back if you buy one Neo for personal use |
| 18:38.48 | yacc | nope. |
| 18:39.05 | ynezz | and I would need to pay just .cz VAT for it |
| 18:39.31 | yacc | if you are from another EU country, you can either get the VAT back (or not pay it at all) if you are a VAT-paying company, or you can pay the VAT of the country of origin if you are a private person. |
| 18:40.15 | yacc | ynezz: .cz is part of .eu => so you will pay the VAT of the country of the distributor if you are a private person. Or the .cz one if you got an UID number. |
| 18:40.16 | PierreTramo | who will the "limited availability" of 2007-02-11 be for? |
| 18:40.35 | PierreTramo | i can get one from my company if i present a good project for it, like i did with the nokia 770 :) |
| 18:41.01 | stefan_schmidt | PierreTramo: Sounds like a good plan. |
| 18:42.01 | PierreTramo | stefan_schmidt: yep, but it's not very honnest, in that case |
| 18:43.44 | alphaone | We plan on using it to get ot FOSDEM :-) |
| 18:43.44 | stefan_schmidt | PierreTramo: heh, but 350$ are not to much for a company. |
| 18:44.04 | PierreTramo | stefan_schmidt: i don't know the english name |
| 18:44.11 | PierreTramo | stefan_schmidt: it's a lab, in a university |
| 18:44.20 | PierreTramo | http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/Ideas/3DViewport?highlight=%28OpenMoko%2FIdeas%29 |
| 18:44.29 | PierreTramo | i don't get which sensors could do the job !? |
| 18:45.37 | stefan_schmidt | PierreTramo: Ah university lab. They even have money for this kind of gadgets. :) |
| 18:46.00 | ynezz | PierreTramo: it's just one of the ideas... |
| 18:46.02 | alphaone | PierreTramo: Seems like no sensors available in the Neo |
| 18:46.08 | stefan_schmidt | PierreTramo: Many of the ideas are just that, ideas. |
| 18:48.32 | mjr | yeah, some require... exotic hardware |
| 18:49.01 | *** join/#openmoko Eludias (n=eludias@wingding.demon.nl) |
| 18:49.16 | mjr | like an fpga or a v8 |
| 18:51.55 | ynezz | if openpcd had BT it would be nice to read RFID tags using Neo :p |
| 18:52.54 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@9.80-202-160.nextgentel.com) |
| 18:54.45 | MetaBookfoziS | fsck rfid. |
| 18:56.35 | *** join/#openmoko thedaniel (n=daniel@38.98.1.19) |
| 19:03.47 | noidd | man, I should have bookmarked xkr47's counter |
| 19:03.50 | noidd | counter |
| 19:03.50 | aloril | 1 week, 4 days 04:56:09 (11.21 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 4 days (39.21 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 1 week, 4 days (223.21 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 19:05.18 | xkr47 | noidd, yes you should ;) |
| 19:05.27 | xkr47 | noidd, doesn't your browser remember ? |
| 19:13.57 | *** join/#openmoko LVEB (n=leo@mon75-7-82-228-48-95.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 19:13.58 | noidd | Got the link |
| 19:14.11 | noidd | and no, my browser doesn't because it purges all history, logs, cookies etc on exit |
| 19:14.22 | noidd | I shut my nmachine down every night when i leave work |
| 19:14.28 | noidd | and I use encrypted filesystems |
| 19:14.33 | *** part/#openmoko LVEB (n=leo@mon75-7-82-228-48-95.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 19:14.39 | noidd | my bookmarks are on del.icio.us |
| 19:14.46 | noidd | http://del.icio.us/noidd |
| 19:14.48 | noidd | in fact |
| 19:14.49 | noidd | :-) |
| 19:15.05 | leventhal | noidd puts my paranoia to shame |
| 19:15.08 | xkr47 | heh, Bookmarks Unencrypted ;) |
| 19:15.14 | xkr47 | leventhal, :) |
| 19:15.32 | noidd | Those are published bookmarks |
| 19:15.35 | noidd | I know about those |
| 19:15.41 | noidd | what data my applications cache, |
| 19:15.44 | leventhal | I just used compusec |
| 19:15.49 | noidd | lets just say I don't want that explored by work :-) |
| 19:16.19 | xkr47 | noidd, oh no, you've bookmarked maemo.org ;) |
| 19:17.24 | xkr47 | noidd, got any luxeon leds ?-) |
| 19:18.30 | noidd | maybe :_) |
| 19:18.40 | PierreTramo | v8=?? |
| 19:18.44 | PierreTramo | fpga, i see.. |
| 19:19.19 | noidd | I bet you clicked the latex tag and was disapointed :- |
| 19:19.22 | noidd | :-D |
| 19:19.36 | PierreTramo | ? |
| 19:19.39 | PierreTramo | sorry? |
| 19:19.51 | PierreTramo | nop, it was said sooner on that channel |
| 19:19.57 | noidd | xkr is browsing my del.icio.us tags |
| 19:20.29 | *** join/#openmoko dilinger (n=dilinger@wireless-19-62.media.mit.edu) |
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| 19:39.31 | Morgret | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:39.32 | Morgret | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:39.50 | Morgret | Hmmm, that paste messed up. |
| 19:40.37 | Morgret | But the point about it was, it's an HTC phone with 3D done by nVidia Go 5500, and THC is the previous spinoff company from FIC. |
| 19:40.56 | Morgret | s/THC/HTC/ |
| 19:41.06 | koen | a goforge isn't a real geforge |
| 19:41.14 | koen | it's just a rebadged mediaq |
| 19:42.21 | Morgret | That would be a good thing ... seeing as GeForce is closed ;-) |
| 19:42.57 | koen | mediaq used to have proper docs online |
| 19:43.06 | Elrond | What is this htc thing anyway? I heard about it on the lugradio interview. |
| 19:43.08 | koen | but those vanished after nvidia bought them |
| 19:43.34 | Elrond | koen - Oh, we love it. :-( |
| 19:44.24 | Elrond | counter |
| 19:44.24 | aloril | 1 week, 4 days 04:15:35 (11.18 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 4 days (39.18 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 1 week, 4 days (223.18 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 19:46.11 | Morgret | HTC is a *massive* manufacturer of Win-based mobiles. The number of national companies that rebadge HTC products is just phenomenal. |
| 19:46.23 | noidd | e/clear |
| 19:46.44 | noidd | I'm wondering how the display on the neo compares to the Zaurus c760 |
| 19:46.48 | Morgret | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Tech_Computer |
| 19:46.49 | noidd | its the same res |
| 19:46.54 | noidd | but i'm guessing smaller |
| 19:47.15 | Morgret | Look at the list of phones at the bottom of that page. Any ring a bell? ;-) |
| 19:48.20 | noidd | should they? |
| 19:48.31 | Elrond | *checking* |
| 19:50.00 | Morgret | Well they'll only ring a bell if you've looked at brand names in local shops. ;-) The point was, a large proportion of branded phones are just HTCs. And that's a spinoff from FIC. |
| 19:50.30 | Elrond | yeah. |
| 19:53.44 | Elrond | Morgret - FIC is not mentioned on the wikipedia-page, no? |
| 19:54.10 | noidd | yeah - that's true |
| 19:54.39 | snatches | so how many phones does FIC mass produce? |
| 19:54.58 | MetaBookfoziS | http://www.terminal.hu/cikk.php?article_id=103405&ac=2 |
| 19:55.33 | *** join/#openmoko wux (n=chatzill@d83-179-56-252.cust.tele2.fr) |
| 19:55.49 | MetaBookfoziS | http://www.mobilegazette.com/t-mobile-ameo-htc-athena-07x01x27.htm |
| 19:55.51 | MetaBookfoziS | in english |
| 19:56.03 | snatches | ty |
| 19:56.46 | MetaBookfoziS | its only 2X expensiver than neo, but 625mhz, 3mp cam, qwerty keyboard, big screen |
| 19:56.52 | MetaBookfoziS | and windows mobile:// |
| 19:57.03 | thedaniel | well maybe it can be persuaded to run openmoko |
| 19:57.37 | *** part/#openmoko snatches (n=slapnik@rrcs-70-61-81-90.midsouth.biz.rr.com) |
| 19:58.43 | MetaBookfoziS | and wifi:/ oh my gear:/ |
| 20:03.24 | *** join/#openmoko ofer0 (n=ofer0x@unaffiliated/ofer0) |
| 20:03.46 | noidd | I wonder if all these phones would have appeared if it wasn't for the iPhone keynote |
| 20:04.03 | noidd | ie - how many manufactureres actually sped up movement to market because of that |
| 20:04.07 | *** join/#openmoko ozamosi (n=ozamosi@cust.fiber-lan.vnet.lk.85.194.49.186.stunet.se) |
| 20:04.13 | pH5 | noidd: probably none |
| 20:04.59 | Stephmw | noidd: I've been quoted 18 months from idea to retail for brand new designs (inc software) |
| 20:05.17 | *** join/#openmoko cyphase (n=cyphase@c-71-202-49-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 20:05.23 | noidd | Wow, 18 months is a long time |
| 20:05.37 | noidd | thats a hell of a latency to play catchup in |
| 20:06.01 | Stephmw | there's certainly a lot to do |
| 20:08.59 | PierreTramo | is there some kind of ARM board with (ethernet||usb2)&&sound i/o available on the market for "final customers"? |
| 20:09.38 | fluffs | PierreTramo: what sort of arm are you after? |
| 20:10.34 | fluffs | and do you mean usb2 full-speed or high-speed? |
| 20:10.57 | PierreTramo | usb2 like 2.0, 480mbps, if possible |
| 20:11.17 | PierreTramo | well, the other one (which i don't know speed) would be funny to play with too :) |
| 20:11.30 | PierreTramo | (and yes, i know i'm crazy) |
| 20:12.44 | mjr | 480M is the high-speed part of the usb2 spec, yeah |
| 20:13.24 | mjr | (it's so fun that technically, 11M usb devices can be called "usb2" (well, if they otherwise follow the spec), just merely "full" and not "high" speed |
| 20:15.03 | Morgret | Um, not quite. USB1.1 devices are *compatible* with USB2.0 full-speed ... but they're not USB2.0 devices themselves. |
| 20:16.17 | *** join/#openmoko lrg (n=liam@lrg.demon.co.uk) |
| 20:16.20 | mjr | correct, hence the parenthesis, which could've been formulated better, admittedly |
| 20:16.40 | mjr | the point was that one can be usb 2 compliant without supporting "high speed" |
| 20:17.06 | Sketch | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usb#Transfer_speed |
| 20:17.07 | Sketch | Though Hi-Speed devices are commonly referred to as "USB 2.0" and advertised as "up to 480 Mb/s", not all USB 2.0 devices are Hi-Speed. |
| 20:17.26 | PierreTramo | well |
| 20:17.27 | *** join/#openmoko thedaniel_ (n=daniel@38.98.1.19) |
| 20:17.31 | PierreTramo | fluffs: ARM7+ |
| 20:17.51 | PierreTramo | anyway, ethernet would be great |
| 20:18.22 | PierreTramo | and usb2 something more, actually (even if it could be enough, without any ethernet) |
| 20:18.26 | yacc | Morgret: it get's even more complicated when you take USB2 hubs into account, as the hub needs to translate. |
| 20:19.28 | [g2] | PierreTramo are you looking for an OEM board ? |
| 20:19.39 | PierreTramo | [g2]: what do you mean by OEM? |
| 20:19.59 | [g2] | a board one includes in their product from another vendor |
| 20:20.17 | PierreTramo | why not!? |
| 20:20.41 | PierreTramo | i mean something I can buy :D |
| 20:21.04 | [g2] | there are tons of boards avilable, it's really a matter of price/features |
| 20:21.08 | PierreTramo | and for something cheaper than 500$ :) |
| 20:21.12 | PierreTramo | yep, exactly |
| 20:21.18 | PierreTramo | what i found was expensive |
| 20:21.38 | PierreTramo | considering what i'm looking for, can you tell me an approximate price? |
| 20:21.40 | Sketch | if you are looking for cheap, you might better off hacking up an old PDA |
| 20:21.46 | Sketch | +be |
| 20:21.56 | yacc | PierreTramo: Well, you can probably for experiments buy some route or other gadget ;) |
| 20:22.09 | [g2] | well pretty cheap would be a NSLU2 with custom firmware |
| 20:22.14 | PierreTramo | sound i/o + ethernet + usb2 ? :D |
| 20:22.17 | [g2] | and an USB 2.0 ausio adapter |
| 20:22.24 | yacc | PierreTramo: Sound IO can be done via USB. |
| 20:22.31 | *** join/#openmoko andrerav (i=andrerav@gaupe.stud.ntnu.no) |
| 20:22.37 | PierreTramo | [g2]: the idea is to work on the firmware :) |
| 20:22.37 | [g2] | it's got 100Mbs ethernet, two USB 2.0 high-speed ports |
| 20:22.48 | [g2] | PierreTramo that's all doen |
| 20:22.49 | [g2] | done |
| 20:23.07 | [g2] | we've been hacking on that device for the last 2.5 years |
| 20:23.11 | PierreTramo | [g2]: no no, i'm looking for that board to PLAY :) |
| 20:23.16 | Morgret | There are still a few bugs in Linux USB drivers, hope they don't hit us on Neo. Specifically ehci_hcd gets bandwidth calculations wrong, and refuses to do full-speed audio between a 1.1 and a 2.0 interface if other USB devices have registered. Whereas same two devices work fine in WinXP. |
| 20:23.45 | Morgret | That's relevant because many of us will be plugging in the Neo to our USB2.0 ports. |
| 20:24.25 | PierreTramo | nslu2 is funny, it's true :) |
| 20:25.12 | xkr47 | Morgret, do you aim to do full speed audio ?-) |
| 20:25.49 | Morgret | xkr47: I don't aim to do that on Neo, no, but others might. |
| 20:28.45 | yacc | Morgret: the Neo is only USB1.1 ;) |
| 20:29.26 | Morgret | I know. We're talking about USB2.0's "full-speed", not high-speed. Full speed is just USB1.1 data rates. |
| 20:29.43 | fluffs | hmm, i know the s3c2440 has no isochronous support... not sure if the 2410 had it or wether it worked |
| 20:32.10 | *** join/#openmoko ozamosi (n=ozamosi@cust.fiber-lan.vnet.lk.85.194.49.186.stunet.se) |
| 20:32.22 | Morgret | The ehci_hcd bug only manifests when you plug in a USB1.1 device (like the Neo) to a USB2.0 host port, and the EHCI tries to setup an urb for a full-speed channel when other (low rate) interfaces are already registered. It's just a bug, it's confused. Same host and same 1.1 device work fine in WinXP, so clearly there is bandwidth on the wire. |
| 20:33.07 | *** join/#openmoko voidans (i=adam@dieor.freelive.org) |
| 20:33.10 | voidans | wow |
| 20:33.13 | voidans | thats a large channel. |
| 20:33.36 | voidans | how do i get my hands on a development device? :) |
| 20:33.46 | Morgret | In fact, it shouldn't even be checking for bandwidth usage with that kernel option turned off. But it does anyway, hehe. |
| 20:33.56 | mjr | voidans, in March |
| 20:34.10 | voidans | :( |
| 20:34.48 | voidans | nobody has an extra one, huh? |
| 20:34.49 | voidans | :> |
| 20:34.49 | *** join/#openmoko nonick01_ (n=chatzill@168.226.107.251) |
| 20:35.03 | Morgret | voidans: But dev environment will be public soon, so we can work on the OE/xoo emulater until March. |
| 20:35.31 | voidans | whats that? |
| 20:35.43 | Morgret | dev environment |
| 20:35.49 | voidans | oh i see |
| 20:36.13 | voidans | just gonna be a vmware image or something? |
| 20:36.26 | Morgret | OpenEmbedded |
| 20:36.36 | voidans | hence OE |
| 20:36.38 | voidans | ;) |
| 20:36.57 | Morgret | yup |
| 20:51.07 | *** join/#openmoko lrg (n=liam@lrg.demon.co.uk) |
| 20:57.25 | *** join/#openmoko wbx (n=wbx@e179250197.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 20:58.55 | eLocus | ééé鸸¸¸¸¸¸¸ |
| 20:59.04 | eLocus | sorry |
| 21:00.50 | eLocus | anybody here speak Russian? |
| 21:01.11 | xorAxAx | da |
| 21:01.27 | *** join/#openmoko eric_j (i=1000@adsl-71-145-200-75.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net) |
| 21:01.41 | eLocus | êîãäà âàùå ïîÿâèòüñÿ ýíòîò äåâàéñ? |
| 21:01.54 | Ganneff | !ru |
| 21:01.59 | Ganneff | err. echan. :) |
| 21:02.01 | eLocus | Neo1973 |
| 21:09.12 | *** part/#openmoko eric_j (i=1000@adsl-71-145-200-75.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net) |
| 21:10.16 | *** part/#openmoko eLocus (n=eLocus@217.118.92.3) |
| 21:11.41 | *** join/#openmoko Virtuall (n=virtuall@who.is.virtuall.info) |
| 21:12.06 | Morgret | Any natural born bloggers among us? We'll need 2 or 3 good non-technical writers in the Neo/OM community I think to chronicle what's happening, what things are being worked on, the latest arguments in the lists, news from FIC, emacs vs vi, etc etc. :P In an entertaining style to beat Apple in the hype/buzz market. :P |
| 21:13.33 | alphaone | He, LOL |
| 21:14.17 | alphaone | I just started mine. And I wouldn't call myself natural born blogger. More like natural lazy :-) |
| 21:17.01 | Elrond | I'm a non-blogger and technical. ;) |
| 21:17.31 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=bob@p85.212.153.61.tisdip.tiscali.de) |
| 21:24.00 | *** join/#openmoko jessta (n=jessta@203-214-97-210.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 21:27.26 | Morgret | Oh, I'm sure we have lots of bloggers among us (not me), but mostly technical. And for the majority of phone customers, that's not just not buzzy, but a total turn off :P |
| 21:28.09 | Elrond | Right. |
| 21:28.34 | *** join/#openmoko NatureTM (n=m@CPE-70-94-38-157.wi.res.rr.com) |
| 21:28.41 | Morgret | And needs writing style. My level of writing is better suited to man pages, hehe. |
| 21:29.00 | Elrond | *G* |
| 21:29.17 | NatureTM | I just saw an article about the Neo1973... I can't wait to get one |
| 21:29.37 | Elrond | NatureTM - You have to wait at least 6 weeks. |
| 21:29.40 | meus | NatureTM: what article? |
| 21:29.56 | NatureTM | http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=3&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.linuxdevices.com%2Fnews%2FNS2986976174.html&ei=erW_RcOUGpCajgHYzNS0Bw&usg=__nmvl1taNE5iiwKdAh3TQ5ZvrHYE=&sig2=iQUvg2bhvpFI8u_psxV9tQ |
| 21:30.01 | NatureTM | what a link!!! |
| 21:30.14 | meus | google powah! |
| 21:30.18 | NatureTM | I googled cheap linux device |
| 21:30.25 | NatureTM | oh |
| 21:30.35 | NatureTM | http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS2986976174.html |
| 21:30.39 | NatureTM | there we go |
| 21:31.15 | NatureTM | I was thinking about getting a gumstix and was looking for alternatives |
| 21:32.30 | NatureTM | is the 6 weeks for devs only or the public? |
| 21:32.30 | Morgret | "Hackable" is almost the wrong word for the Neo/OM. When you can ssh into it out of the factory, it doesn't need hacking. ;-) |
| 21:32.41 | NatureTM | I was wondering if that was included |
| 21:32.43 | NatureTM | good |
| 21:32.55 | NatureTM | too bad no wifi or ethernet |
| 21:32.57 | *** join/#openmoko greentux (n=lemke@Yf138.y.pppool.de) |
| 21:33.20 | NatureTM | ssh through usb? |
| 21:33.21 | mjr | but bt and usbnet :] |
| 21:33.26 | NatureTM | k |
| 21:33.34 | NatureTM | cool |
| 21:33.37 | mjr | anyway, can you ssh into it out of the factory? |
| 21:33.37 | NatureTM | I'm excited |
| 21:34.07 | mjr | I'd think sshd wouldn't be in the default install, though it would admittedly make sense for the developer-directed phases 0-1 |
| 21:34.10 | Elrond | mjr - At least, we'd expect that. |
| 21:34.15 | Morgret | I wonder if we'll get any hardware hacks to actually put some power on the USB connector. Don't need the full spec power, just a little! |
| 21:35.09 | mjr | Yeah. Well, now that I think of it, maybe I expect it too. I just don't expect it to remain in the consumer version (per default, installable sure) |
| 21:35.13 | pH5 | mjr: why wouldn't ssh be in the default install for the consumer version? this is the single most useful application :) |
| 21:35.16 | *** join/#openmoko PirateHead (n=piratehe@ACA5A99B.ipt.aol.com) |
| 21:35.19 | yacc | mjr: why not in the customer version? |
| 21:35.29 | yacc | s/customer/consumer/ |
| 21:35.31 | Morgret | ssh is so tiny that it would be silly not to have it in the default install. It needen't be running -- you can start it manually. |
| 21:35.41 | Morgret | And it makes a statement. |
| 21:35.45 | NatureTM | maybe security reasons? |
| 21:35.45 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@9.80-202-160.nextgentel.com) |
| 21:36.00 | yacc | Actually, one can have a small program that listens on port 22 and starts the sshd if something connects there. |
| 21:36.01 | NatureTM | not that ssh isn't secure |
| 21:36.09 | PirateHead | I agree, SSH would allow for more security in many cellular transactions. |
| 21:36.21 | Morgret | That program is called inetd, and it's standard :P |
| 21:36.46 | Elrond | Is sshd inetd'able? |
| 21:36.50 | mjr | Elrond, it is |
| 21:36.56 | Morgret | Yep, it is |
| 21:37.02 | NatureTM | is this thing gonna have gcc? |
| 21:37.15 | mjr | it will generate a new keyset for every connection from inetd though, so slows down getting a connection |
| 21:37.31 | Elrond | mjr - Yeah. |
| 21:37.52 | Elrond | Well, it should be {installed, but not running} on the consumer edition. |
| 21:38.00 | Elrond | Consumers tend to set stupid passwords, you know. :) |
| 21:38.19 | Morgret | You typically gcc on your cross-build environment, then load your program into the phone. No reason why gcc shouldn't run on the Neo ... but not everyone has 3 weeks to wait for Hello World to compile :P |
| 21:38.23 | pH5 | I wonder who will be the first to build the complete openmoko stack natively on his neo. |
| 21:38.28 | mjr | if there's space, sure, installed, running, no, as you said :] |
| 21:38.33 | NatureTM | Morgret lol |
| 21:38.38 | lrg | pH5: koen :) |
| 21:38.56 | PirateHead | NatureTM: Why would it have GCC? Are you going to compile your embedded apps using your embedded? |
| 21:38.57 | pH5 | lrg: silly me, of course ;) |
| 21:39.02 | SpeedEvil | gcc isn't that slow on P100 class. It'll do a surprising amount overnight. |
| 21:39.20 | NatureTM | it's just kindof a cool feature |
| 21:39.31 | Morgret | SpeedEvil: yeah, but you're Evil ;-) |
| 21:39.52 | SpeedEvil | I've also compiled X on a P100 before :) |
| 21:40.52 | leventhal | distcc is nice for that sort of thing |
| 21:40.56 | PirateHead | I think it's pointless to compile using embedded devices, unless you're just doing it for the heck of it. |
| 21:41.32 | lrg | PirateHead: or comparing the binaries against cross tool binaries |
| 21:41.49 | SpeedEvil | Or on the road with no other computer :) |
| 21:41.55 | lrg | heh |
| 21:42.01 | PirateHead | lrg: That is true. It's probably important for debugging and sanity checks. |
| 21:43.04 | NatureTM | I imagine these things won't brick easily |
| 21:44.00 | Elrond | Or for stupid software, that doesn't cross compile. |
| 21:44.05 | PirateHead | Brick? Or break? |
| 21:44.06 | NatureTM | I bricked my razr not too long ago |
| 21:44.27 | NatureTM | brick == permanant break |
| 21:44.46 | NatureTM | like bad flash etc |
| 21:44.56 | lrg | NatureTM: as long as you dont overwrite the bootloader you should be fine |
| 21:45.20 | PirateHead | I'm wondering about the safety of tinkering and toying with the phone. |
| 21:45.24 | Elrond | lrg - At least, when the bootloader is up to speed. ;) |
| 21:45.41 | PirateHead | If I totally screw shit up and accidentally run rm -R / as root, can I restore the phone to factory condition somehow? |
| 21:45.41 | lrg | Elrond: it currently works well :) |
| 21:46.00 | Morgret | No |
| 21:46.02 | Elrond | lrg - It can update the flash from usb?! |
| 21:46.16 | Morgret | Would be daft for all that info to be held on ROM. |
| 21:46.27 | Morgret | But of course you should be able to do a network load. |
| 21:46.45 | PirateHead | Morgret, I assume you're responding to me? |
| 21:46.56 | lrg | Elrond: all I can say is that it works well for us. nda |
| 21:47.32 | PirateHead | Refreshing/reinstalling the phone's OS is probably the first thing I want to learn how to do |
| 21:47.33 | Morgret | PirateHead: yeah, thought you meant that the phone could carry the whole factory root filestore in ROM, to reset to factory settings. |
| 21:47.58 | PirateHead | Morgret: no, but a kit that could do it over USB would be swell. |
| 21:47.59 | Morgret | From external sources, yeah. |
| 21:48.20 | PirateHead | Does the phone ship with a CD containing its source code and binaries? |
| 21:48.33 | lrg | PirateHead: not yet |
| 21:48.40 | Morgret | The point being that if there is room for a large factory ROM in the phone, then why not use the space for more flash! :P |
| 21:49.10 | Elrond | *G* |
| 21:49.14 | PirateHead | Morgret, I agree: no point in putting all that ROM in there. |
| 21:49.18 | Elrond | There's room for a microsd ;) |
| 21:49.45 | PirateHead | I'm just hoping to build or contribute to an easy to use tool for reformatting and reinstalling OpenMoko on a Neo. |
| 21:49.48 | PirateHead | And other phones, in the future. |
| 21:49.57 | Morgret | Sounds like nice page for the Wiki: How To Restore Your Whole Neo From USBnet. |
| 21:50.11 | Elrond | Morgret - Right. |
| 21:50.47 | PirateHead | Morgret: It needs to be doable with no action on the Neo's part. We have to assume that the Neo is totally crashed. |
| 21:50.57 | PirateHead | Thus, you wouldn't really be using USBnet, would you? |
| 21:51.12 | Elrond | Well, something over usb. |
| 21:52.19 | Elrond | Hmm, can one disable charging over usb? I don't want to waste changring vycles just by connecting/disconnecting/connecting the phone. |
| 21:52.25 | SpeedEvil | JTAG? |
| 21:52.28 | SpeedEvil | You don't. |
| 21:52.36 | SpeedEvil | Li-ion doesn't really work like that. |
| 21:52.49 | SpeedEvil | It's (say) 500 charge/discharge cycles |
| 21:53.00 | SpeedEvil | or 5000 10% discharge/charge |
| 21:53.00 | Elrond | How does it work? |
| 21:53.00 | Morgret | PirateHead: except for the load-from-flash action. It's bound to have some hold-button-down-on-powerup function for death recovery. |
| 21:53.12 | Elrond | Ahh. |
| 21:53.43 | SpeedEvil | There is a slight penalty to keeping the battery charged at 100% all the time, for best longevity, you want to charge to 50%. |
| 21:53.45 | SpeedEvil | But... |
| 21:54.41 | SpeedEvil | Alteratively, there might be a 'rescue sd' |
| 21:57.44 | PirateHead | A 'rescue sd' could be alright. |
| 21:57.51 | PirateHead | But something that works over the USB would probably be better |
| 21:58.07 | PirateHead | I mean, having both options available would make me most comfortable personally. |
| 21:58.43 | mjr | either would be fine |
| 21:59.05 | mjr | usb admittedly more convenient |
| 22:04.31 | *** join/#openmoko koljoman (n=nenni@rb4d109.net.upc.cz) |
| 22:06.40 | [g2] | PirateHead [g2] votes for the "rescue sd" and a boot option to boot form the SD |
| 22:06.56 | [g2] | s/form/from/ |
| 22:07.13 | [g2] | the issue being the usb is not powered |
| 22:07.29 | PirateHead | tset |
| 22:07.31 | SpeedEvil | And a SD card wallet can easily be kept on the keyring. |
| 22:07.39 | PirateHead | s/tset/test |
| 22:07.59 | PirateHead | boo, apt doesn't like me |
| 22:08.04 | mjr | you didn't terminate your expression properly :] |
| 22:08.10 | PirateHead | ooh |
| 22:08.35 | PirateHead | f00 bar |
| 22:08.38 | PirateHead | s/f00/foo/ |
| 22:08.38 | [g2] | bbiaf |
| 22:08.46 | PirateHead | k |
| 22:08.53 | PirateHead | thx apt |
| 22:09.56 | PirateHead | the problem with a rescue SD is that it would be really ungodly slow |
| 22:10.05 | PirateHead | think how much time it takes for a normal linux install |
| 22:10.21 | PirateHead | and then factor in less memory, less processor power, and flash memory |
| 22:10.29 | PirateHead | and very little RAM |
| 22:11.45 | *** join/#openmoko Mirv (n=tajyrink@pdpc/supporter/active/Mirv) |
| 22:11.48 | pH5 | PirateHead: this is limited by the write speed of the internal flash, really. flashing my hx4700 (128mb) takes about 15 to 20 minutes. |
| 22:12.01 | PirateHead | I don't necessarily know that a USB-powered system would work better, but I would want to investigae it. |
| 22:12.14 | PirateHead | s/investigae/investigate/ |
| 22:12.29 | PirateHead | I am so gonna abuse that. |
| 22:14.06 | mjr | it gets old... |
| 22:14.54 | *** join/#openmoko tr2x (n=alvar@80-218-185-55.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 22:17.42 | *** join/#openmoko ryanlerch (i=user@lilacold.lennox.com.au) |
| 22:25.03 | *** join/#openmoko Zero_Dogg (n=zerodogg@mandriva/developer/Zero-Dogg) |
| 22:25.26 | hrw | evening |
| 22:25.28 | *** join/#openmoko koljoman (n=nenni@rb4d109.net.upc.cz) |
| 22:25.44 | ryanlerch | morning, :P |
| 22:25.55 | *** join/#openmoko dyrne (i=pike@server1.freeshells.ch) |
| 22:26.27 | koljoman | hi a"moko"s |
| 22:28.59 | Zero_Dogg | when will it be available for ordering? Will there be any chance of a developer discount? |
| 22:29.03 | lrg | hey Marcin |
| 22:29.43 | stefan_schmidt | re |
| 22:30.08 | hrw | Zero_Dogg: 3.11 and looks like no |
| 22:30.13 | stefan_schmidt | Zer0Her0: See topic, especially the announce mail |
| 22:30.30 | stefan_schmidt | Zer0Her0: That's all we know so far |
| 22:31.12 | koljoman | how can contribute/join developing and etc |
| 22:31.14 | PierreTramo | does anyone have already heared about using a psion s3c screen? :D |
| 22:31.29 | PierreTramo | that's a hack i'd love to do |
| 22:31.38 | stefan_schmidt | koljoman: Add yourself to the ml's |
| 22:31.56 | stefan_schmidt | koljoman: Read the archives, have ideas post it. |
| 22:32.33 | koljoman | @stefan: 10x i will do it now |
| 22:34.09 | Zero_Dogg | stefan_schmidt: was that to me? |
| 22:34.58 | stefan_schmidt | Zer0Her0: ?, koljoman asked how to join the development. You asked about when available. |
| 22:35.23 | Zero_Dogg | stefan_schmidt: I was more referring to the messages you pointed at Zer0Her0 |
| 22:36.08 | *** join/#openmoko XiXX (i=XiXX@87.252.246.26) |
| 22:36.21 | stefan_schmidt | Zero_Dogg: aargh, of course you're right |
| 22:36.30 | Zero_Dogg | stefan_schmidt: okay, thanks :) |
| 22:36.34 | stefan_schmidt | ~lart big channels and tapcompletion |
| 22:37.30 | PierreTramo | is there a "standard" protocol for a 16-pin 240x80 B/W screen that i could try? :( |
| 22:37.54 | Morgret | for $user in `/who #OpenMoko`; do ~lart $user; done |
| 22:37.57 | Morgret | :P |
| 22:39.15 | Morgret | I sure hope the bot *doesn't* have scripting :-( |
| 22:39.22 | stefan_schmidt | s/for $user/for user/ ;) |
| 22:39.51 | Morgret | It was Bourne Perl shell :P |
| 22:40.38 | stefan_schmidt | heh |
| 22:41.54 | Elrond | voodoo^2-shell? |
| 22:41.56 | Morgret | Does the USB power pin have *some* power on it, but just not enough to meet the USB1.1 power spec? |
| 22:42.32 | Morgret | Or is it just not connected at all? |
| 22:42.43 | tchuladdiass | Morget: I dont't think it has any power -- the problem is that usb calls for 5.0v, the phone only has 3.6v internal |
| 22:42.45 | xorAxAx | the usb power spec doesnt require much current |
| 22:42.54 | Morgret | k |
| 22:43.10 | tchuladdiass | so to add usb power would require a dc-dc converter chip, which adds complexity / cost / etc. |
| 22:43.46 | fluffs | with a standard battery you'd not get a lot of life with 5v@500mA draw |
| 22:44.24 | xorAxAx | sure |
| 22:44.24 | Morgret | But Ethernet USB adapters and other common stuff don't sink 500mA |
| 22:44.54 | xorAxAx | fluffs: my old ericsson k700i has 2.5 Wh |
| 22:44.55 | fluffs | no, but add a hub and it isn't difficult |
| 22:45.13 | SpeedEvil | Much stuff requires >100mA in peaks thouhg. |
| 22:45.17 | xorAxAx | fluffs: so its maybe 40 minutes :) |
| 22:45.25 | SpeedEvil | Wifi adaptors typically do use half that power at least. |
| 22:46.06 | tchuladdiass | yep, my zaurus has powered usb, but not enough to power wifi. |
| 22:46.59 | Morgret | Well that should be up to the user, whether to trade battery life for peripheral power or not. The 3.6->5.0 argument is more relevant though. |
| 22:48.03 | fluffs | you can get a single chip dc-dc converter, but they do require external componentry and i'm not sure about the efficency |
| 22:48.24 | SpeedEvil | It can be up to 90% |
| 22:48.34 | Morgret | And they raise your noise floor a little. |
| 22:48.40 | SpeedEvil | Typically there are tradeoffs vwith size/cost/power |
| 22:48.46 | SpeedEvil | Yeah. |
| 22:48.51 | tchuladdiass | It would be nice if the phone had an external 3.6v power tap next to the usb port -- then you can build the dc-dc into an external cable |
| 22:49.39 | Morgret | Sounds like we have room for some h/w mods ;-) |
| 22:49.59 | SpeedEvil | If you have an external cable, you may as well stick a couple of AAA batteries on it too. |
| 22:50.19 | Morgret | Somebody overclock it to 3GHz pls .... ;-) |
| 22:50.28 | *** join/#openmoko mitcheloc (n=mitchelo@titaniumsoft.net) |
| 22:50.29 | tchuladdiass | but then you have an extra set of batteries to keep trak of (carying charger, etc.) |
| 22:51.18 | tchuladdiass | Might as well carry a cyberpower battery-powered usb hub |
| 22:51.26 | tchuladdiass | (i might pick up one of those) |
| 22:51.49 | pH5 | Morgret: looks like we can overclock to 270 MHz? :) |
| 22:52.14 | mjr | I tried to, but found nobody willing to sell those to Finland. Oh, except that one place who wanted wasit 60 bucks for shipping |
| 22:53.03 | SpeedEvil | if they are integrated into ca ble and charge over usb |
| 22:54.14 | tchuladdiass | Ah, I see, you mean batteries in addition to the power tap and dc-dc converter. I thought you meant have a battery powered cable instead of doing the external dc-dc. |
| 22:54.56 | tchuladdiass | Cause someone on the list already meantioned putting together a cable / box with 4 NiMh batteries |
| 22:55.37 | *** part/#openmoko ofer0 (n=ofer0x@unaffiliated/ofer0) |
| 22:58.44 | SpeedEvil | A USB cable that plugs into a powered port charges the bats basically |
| 22:59.01 | SpeedEvil | A USB cable that when plugged into a powered port charges the bats basically |
| 23:04.59 | LittleIdiot | hihi http://www.mad4mobilephones.com/images/iphone-cartoon.jpg |
| 23:08.47 | *** join/#openmoko cld2 (n=cdickers@159.225.155.181) |
| 23:08.48 | mjr | "And look, this GPS map software tells me exactly where to call the ambulance" |
| 23:10.01 | cld2 | so in march I should be able to buy a phone for $350 us even if im not a super l33t developer? |
| 23:10.34 | cld2 | of course with the intention of using the phone/contact app and trying my hand at development? |
| 23:10.36 | mjr | cld2, correct, however you are expected to know that you're buying a developer device that isn't all polished up yet |
| 23:10.41 | LittleIdiot | "oh they're close, my bluetooth scanner software tells me that it has found a device named 'ambulance'" ;) |
| 23:10.51 | cld2 | mjr: understood |
| 23:10.53 | cld2 | thanks. |
| 23:11.21 | cld2 | mjr: it should "work" though right? its not just going to be a brick. the os and the phone app should be installed and working? |
| 23:11.29 | hrw | and that some things will not work yet |
| 23:11.43 | hrw | cld2: iirc voicecalls are working |
| 23:11.50 | hrw | audio playback is working too |
| 23:12.08 | cld2 | I cant wait to get rid of my treo. I was going to buy a nokia e61 until I heard about this device. |
| 23:12.12 | mjr | it shouldn't be a brick, but I'm not on FIC's payroll, so I don't know the real deal ;) |
| 23:12.43 | hrw | !counter |
| 23:12.49 | cld2 | im sure a few people in here will have one when the time comes. we can pick there brains then. |
| 23:12.53 | Clint | no ! |
| 23:13.00 | hrw | counter |
| 23:13.00 | aloril | 1 week, 4 days 00:46:59 (11.03 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 4 days (39.03 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 1 week, 4 days (223.03 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 23:13.19 | *** join/#openmoko wbx_ (n=wbx@e179253038.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 23:13.21 | hrw | so 1 week, 4 days + shipping for me |
| 23:13.30 | mjr | *envy* :] |
| 23:13.38 | Clint | hmmph |
| 23:13.42 | *** join/#openmoko [g2] (n=g2@nslu2-linux/g2) |
| 23:13.48 | mjr | but yeah, do tell us if you can actually talk on it when you get it ;) |
| 23:13.51 | hrw | and then I will post small review with pictures and shots |
| 23:14.08 | hrw | on http://www.hrw.one.pl/ as always |
| 23:14.29 | cld2 | hrw: thanks for the heads up |
| 23:15.29 | SpeedEvil | Also take-apart - the case off only prolly |
| 23:15.36 | alphaone | hrw: The subject of that mail could have easily been mistaken for spam, though |
| 23:16.14 | LittleIdiot | where do i opt in for the list of "all developers"? |
| 23:17.00 | alphaone | LittleIdiot: You just order your device at www.openmoko.com |
| 23:17.04 | mjr | LittleIdiot, apparently a preorder list is planned, but I don't think it's time yet |
| 23:17.14 | *** join/#openmoko Eludias (n=eludias@wingding.demon.nl) |
| 23:17.22 | SpeedEvil | how many is the second batch? |
| 23:19.19 | LittleIdiot | oh, so the source will be released for the public in 11 days? the counter reads as if at first developers that are on the list only get the source... |
| 23:19.46 | *** join/#openmoko dygituljunky (i=cf451056@gateway/web/cgi-irc/ircatwork.com/x-78a9a6f8e177b961) |
| 23:19.47 | LittleIdiot | because it distinguishes between 'any' and 'all' ;) |
| 23:19.52 | hrw | source, wiki, bugtracker for all |
| 23:20.02 | LittleIdiot | allright then ;) |
| 23:20.03 | hrw | free phones for 50 developers |
| 23:20.35 | *** join/#openmoko aloril (n=aloril@kaar72.airix.fi) |
| 23:20.50 | LittleIdiot | this wasnt an attempt to get a phone. this was rather an attempt to have a look at the {svn,cvs,git,*} repository ;) |
| 23:20.57 | *** join/#openmoko tr2x (n=alvar@80-218-185-55.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 23:21.05 | mjr | righto |
| 23:21.21 | *** join/#openmoko _rob (n=rob@ACB3247C.ipt.aol.com) |
| 23:21.31 | *** join/#openmoko jdhoreotg (n=jd@pool-71-163-67-207.washdc.east.verizon.net) |
| 23:21.39 | hrw | svn + monotone this time |
| 23:21.43 | *** part/#openmoko jdhoreotg (n=jd@pool-71-163-67-207.washdc.east.verizon.net) |
| 23:22.59 | *** join/#openmoko bprice20 (n=brandon@cpe-74-67-56-138.nycap.res.rr.com) |
| 23:23.39 | *** join/#openmoko rwhitby (n=rwhitby@nslu2-linux/rwhitby) |
| 23:23.42 | *** part/#openmoko koljoman (n=nenni@rb4d109.net.upc.cz) |
| 23:23.44 | hrw | cu - sleeptime |
| 23:23.49 | hrw | hi Rod |
| 23:24.04 | rwhitby | hey hrw |
| 23:27.49 | Psi_ | do we know if the neo has a RTC wakeup interrupt? ie for alarm clock when the phone is off? |
| 23:29.20 | fluffs | Psi_: the s3c2410 can resume from rtc |
| 23:29.38 | Psi_ | :) |
| 23:29.50 | mjr | spiffy |
| 23:30.21 | mjr | though I usually keep mine on continuously |
| 23:30.34 | mjr | phone generally, that is |
| 23:31.43 | Psi_ | yeah, i was more thinking about things you could do with the phone when it is able to auto switch on at certain times |
| 23:34.18 | SpeedEvil | It might be nice to sleep the phone, and only wakeup on GSM or RTC interrupt. |
| 23:34.50 | SpeedEvil | Or screen |
| 23:34.51 | Psi_ | that would definitely make the battery last a while |
| 23:35.47 | pH5 | SpeedEvil: that's how works on all smartphones that I know. |
| 23:35.47 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (i=foobar@dslb-084-057-150-152.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 23:35.49 | SpeedEvil | Yeah. I suppose it'd have to. |
| 23:37.15 | mjr | Psi_, mmh, yes, like if somebody steals it and turns it off, it'll still wake up periodically and update position on the net ;P (hmh, that would probably require storing pin somewhere, less good...) |
| 23:38.15 | LittleIdiot | mjr: you could make a fake shutdown mode... miming it'd be off |
| 23:38.26 | LittleIdiot | ask the cia guys, they know how to do it ;) |
| 23:39.13 | mjr | LittleIdiot, *nod*, and do all kinds of stuff we've been over here ;) |
| 23:40.24 | mjr | then have a user-defined obfuscated way of triggering real shutdown, yay... |
| 23:40.34 | mjr | "security by obscurity" |
| 23:42.22 | parag0n | people will just pull the battery |
| 23:42.34 | LittleIdiot | well, if somebody knows the phone already then he/she knows that this software exists. but i assume that people stealing cellphones aren't that smart to know whats on it |
| 23:42.55 | mjr | well, for a while it could work |
| 23:43.14 | LittleIdiot | and hey, an unlocked phone means free calls for a wile ;) |
| 23:44.13 | mjr | anyway, there's been talk of all kinds of anti-theft tracking assuming that the thief doesn't do a complete reinstall |
| 23:44.47 | mjr | just talk so far but I'd be surprised if some of it didn't get real |
| 23:45.59 | LittleIdiot | what, you mean there have recently been productive discussions on the discuss list? *g* |
| 23:46.02 | mjr | might even do some simple app myself |
| 23:46.34 | mjr | no, actually it was a while back, and mostly on this channel, but a message or two also on the list... Like, weeks ago at least ;) |
| 23:46.55 | mjr | the community list is currently not that signaly... |
| 23:48.48 | LittleIdiot | thats why i've unsubscribed it |
| 23:49.07 | mjr | I haven't, I just ignore most of the fluff |
| 23:53.15 | mjr | some fax/scanner stuff has been almost sane recently |
| 23:53.36 | mjr | almost in the sense that hey, they're thinking of using neo and a (powered) scanner as a fax |
| 23:55.06 | mjr | to each their own, I suppose :] |
| 23:55.29 | mjr | (and see what I did there, "scanner", "sane", ehheheh) |
| 23:55.55 | mjr | ...time for bed perhaps |
| 23:56.15 | mjr | _or_ |
| 23:56.25 | mjr | time for Stargate, who can tell... |
| 23:56.43 | mjr | nah, pretty sure it's bed |
