| 00:04.44 | *** join/#openmoko ajturner (n=ajturner@d14-69-64-67.try.wideopenwest.com) |
| 00:08.23 | larstobi | FirefighterBlu3: I guess it depends on how often you receive new mail whether or not "notify via SMS" is more battery friendly than IMAP IDLE. If you get new mail more often than circa every 15 or 30 minutes, then I believe IDLE is more power efficient. |
| 00:10.12 | larstobi | FirefighterBlu3: because you'd have to do a full IMAP sync with the SMS method, wich may use considerably more transmitting power than just a IDLE command every 30 minutes or so. |
| 00:12.14 | larstobi | also, even Microsoft is going away from the SMS method nowadays, with more or less power efficiency success... |
| 00:29.37 | *** join/#openmoko cjb (n=cjb@pullcord.laptop.org) |
| 00:32.16 | *** join/#openmoko cktakahasi (n=cktakaha@20150163116.user.veloxzone.com.br) |
| 00:47.14 | hrw|tv | mail over sms? sick idea |
| 00:48.12 | larstobi | hrw|tv: no, new mail _notification_ ;-) |
| 00:49.27 | hrw|tv | bleh |
| 00:49.39 | larstobi | huh? |
| 00:49.49 | hrw|tv | sick too |
| 00:49.56 | larstobi | what? how? |
| 00:50.41 | newmedian | An SMS is not a terrible notification, if you can't use IDLE. Most countries don't charge an arm and a leg for SMS (like some North American providers do). |
| 00:51.08 | SpeedEvil | Inbound SMS is free generally in the UK. |
| 00:51.11 | SpeedEvil | It costs to send. |
| 00:51.13 | larstobi | that's right, here in Norway they only charge an arm |
| 00:51.14 | newmedian | Interesting. |
| 00:51.14 | hrw|tv | in Poland too |
| 00:51.26 | hrw|tv | free get, pay send |
| 00:51.35 | SpeedEvil | this is because we don't have the silly notion of mixing up the cellphone and ordinary phone numbering space. |
| 00:51.49 | hrw|tv | but how to know which sms is notify which not? |
| 00:51.58 | newmedian | In Toronto Canada, I'm paying a $10 CAD for 1000 SMS per month, on top of whatever my plan includes. |
| 00:52.13 | SpeedEvil | Get the user to point to a 'this is a you have new mail' SMS? |
| 00:52.14 | larstobi | that's pretty easy to distinguish |
| 00:52.55 | SpeedEvil | Kids these days in the UK seem to use SMS as IRC |
| 00:53.03 | larstobi | yeah...hehe |
| 00:53.14 | newmedian | They use SMS for voicemail notification here :| (although they don't bill you for that SMS) |
| 00:53.55 | larstobi | I suppose they bill the guy that leaves the voicemail |
| 00:54.21 | SpeedEvil | Generally - unless you're on the same network, in which case it can be free. |
| 00:54.25 | newmedian | No, not for the SMS; If the person is using their cellular, then they pay for their own minutes. |
| 00:54.26 | larstobi | and when you actually download the voicemail, they charge you, right? |
| 00:54.30 | hrw|tv | I disabled voicemail |
| 00:55.12 | newmedian | I can call to listen to the voicemail through a landline for free, or I can pay cell minutes to call through my cell and listen to my voicemail. |
| 00:55.16 | hrw|tv | in my network you get voicemail sms notify free, voicemail free, caller pays like for normal connection |
| 00:55.40 | newmedian | Here caller doesn't pay, which leads to Spam. |
| 00:56.02 | SpeedEvil | Hmm. O2 gprs data rate - .3p/Kb, for low price contract plans. |
| 00:56.04 | larstobi | an SMS costs like 8 cents in Norway |
| 00:57.10 | larstobi | that's 4p for ya |
| 00:59.17 | SpeedEvil | I can imagine VOIP over GPRS in some cases being a good way to reduce costs. |
| 00:59.37 | larstobi | how is the latency on that? |
| 00:59.48 | newmedian | They are charging $0.20 per SMS for International SMS. |
| 00:59.51 | hrw|tv | I pay 0.20 pln for sms |
| 01:02.37 | newmedian | Here Fido/Microcell is charging $12/month for 1 MB, or $25/month for 3 MB, or $40/month for 7 MB, or $60/month for 25 MB, or $100/month for 200 MB, with excess data charges ranging from $22 per additional MB down to $5 per additional MB (if you're paying the $100/month). |
| 01:02.50 | *** join/#openmoko terrex (n=terrex@84-122-63-17.onocable.ono.com) |
| 01:02.57 | newmedian | I should say, GPRS, that is. |
| 01:03.16 | hrw|tv | 50MB for 30 pln and then 0.06 pln for each 50KB |
| 01:03.55 | newmedian | We need a world wide WiFi mesh. :) |
| 01:04.38 | larstobi | Fon? |
| 01:09.12 | frostschutz | Fon is not world wide, Fon is in my cellar |
| 01:09.40 | larstobi | huh? in your cellar? |
| 01:09.58 | *** join/#openmoko eikonos (n=eikonos@S0106001310d36705.gv.shawcable.net) |
| 01:13.25 | larstobi | ah |
| 01:13.59 | larstobi | lol... but it's a good attempt at a world wide wi-fi network |
| 01:14.47 | newmedian | Does the _ above an o sound like the Fōn == Phone ? (my font is too small, I can't tell if that's a proper _) |
| 01:21.02 | larstobi | it is pronounced more like "phoon" |
| 01:23.17 | *** join/#openmoko Demitar_ (n=demitar@c-212-031-189-107.cust.broadway.se) |
| 01:24.12 | Elrond | counter |
| 01:24.12 | aloril | 2 weeks 22:35:47 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 5 days for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 2 days for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 01:25.31 | newmedian | I would really like a pre-order, so that on 2007-03-11 the ecommerce system doesn't get jammed up. |
| 01:25.43 | hrw|tv | http://www.hrw.one.pl/2007/01/27/star-wars-empire-of-dreams/ |
| 01:26.00 | hrw|tv | I would really like to get free one ;D |
| 01:27.05 | newmedian | Well, yes, that'd be nice. But I don't mind buying one to further the cause. I assume there are only going to be a few strategic developers for the 2007-02-11. |
| 01:28.15 | Elrond | Well, I'd like a money-back thing. Or pay, when I like it. ;o) |
| 01:29.14 | *** join/#openmoko doctorshim (n=go@ip68-106-218-27.oc.oc.cox.net) |
| 01:29.14 | newmedian | TANSTAAFL, even if it's an "open" phone. :) |
| 01:29.37 | Elrond | What? |
| 01:29.56 | newmedian | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TANSTAAFL |
| 01:30.33 | Elrond | Ahh. |
| 01:30.52 | newmedian | Although I wonder what RAH would have thought about FLOSS. Hmm. |
| 01:31.17 | *** join/#openmoko cying (n=cying@adsl-75-44-20-75.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) |
| 01:31.53 | Elrond | Well, here in .de, there is: Anything you buy remotely (via phone, or internet), can be sent back within two weeks, if one hasn't used it too much (it should be 99% new). No money to pay. |
| 01:32.09 | SpeedEvil | EU too. |
| 01:32.13 | SpeedEvil | It's EU wide. |
| 01:32.18 | SuN | It's 8 days here. |
| 01:32.30 | Elrond | Ahh, I didn't know, it was eu-wide. |
| 01:32.36 | newmedian | In Canada there is a 7 day return policy, but stores hate it if you try to enforce it. They fight tooth and nail, except big department stores. |
| 01:32.39 | larstobi | even in Norway |
| 01:32.40 | SpeedEvil | Distance Selling REgulations. |
| 01:32.42 | Elrond | Does .uk play in that eu game? :) |
| 01:32.49 | SpeedEvil | Generally. |
| 01:33.45 | Elrond | Hmm, so if I buy the neo from the .uk fic store... I could send it back, if I really don't like it. ;) |
| 01:33.58 | Elrond | ... if the rumoured .uk fic store exists. ;o) |
| 01:34.10 | newmedian | perhaps it's just a fan fic ;) |
| 01:34.24 | *** join/#openmoko cjb (n=cjb@pullcord.laptop.org) |
| 01:34.47 | Elrond | newmedian - People already made fun and said, that fic does not exist at all. ;) |
| 01:35.40 | *** join/#openmoko Ycros (n=Ycros@gnaw.yi.org) |
| 01:36.03 | *** join/#openmoko noiddpalm (n=ptpChat@166.194.69.249) |
| 01:36.26 | noiddpalm | evenin |
| 01:36.37 | newmedian | somewhere. hello. :) |
| 01:36.47 | Elrond | Hi noiddpalm |
| 01:37.00 | noiddpalm | i'm working sound and lights at a theatre tonght |
| 01:37.10 | noiddpalm | in the booth |
| 01:37.39 | Elrond | hihi :) |
| 01:37.43 | noiddpalm | was thinking about writing an app to run cues from my phone |
| 01:37.53 | noiddpalm | over bluetooth :p |
| 01:37.58 | Elrond | *lol* |
| 01:39.00 | noiddpalm | random thoughts I guess :) |
| 01:39.22 | newmedian | Hopefully the bluetooth won't suffer from the vulnerabilities that plague the proprietary cell phones, e.g. via bluesnipe |
| 01:40.17 | noiddpalm | I don't know what that is |
| 01:40.27 | Elrond | newmedian - That part of the phone is AFAIK fully free. So you can fix it. :) |
| 01:40.37 | newmedian | Excellent Elrond |
| 01:40.56 | newmedian | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluesnarf |
| 01:41.32 | noiddpalm | I'm on a palmshite phone so I can only run one app ata time |
| 01:42.45 | newmedian | noiddpalm, it allows someone to remotely grab your contact list and other data, and often take control of the phone remotely, use it to dial, open up the mic, etc. There is also a bluetooth sniper rifle which allows people to do it from long distance from rooftops, etc. |
| 01:42.46 | noiddpalm | I took a photo but I can't do anything wirh it apart from email it |
| 01:43.03 | noiddpalm | all this will change |
| 01:43.11 | noiddpalm | oh ... that's cool |
| 01:44.26 | noiddpalm | counter |
| 01:44.27 | aloril | 2 weeks 22:15:33 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 5 days for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 2 days for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 01:44.46 | noiddpalm | rock on :) |
| 01:44.57 | Elrond | newmedian - Hey... the openmoko just starts to work as a phone. I guess, the 02-11 phones have bluetooth drivers in the kernel, but nothing in userspace, that uses it. ;) |
| 01:45.07 | SuN | I feel like a shameless leech but I can't wait to install the OpenMoko software on my Motorola E680. |
| 01:45.27 | noiddpalm | don't feel like a leach man. |
| 01:45.41 | noiddpalm | you are a target for openmoko too |
| 01:46.04 | Elrond | SuN - We will get you. ;o) |
| 01:46.09 | SuN | :D |
| 01:46.14 | newmedian | Interesting Elrond. Since I'm likely not a selected developer, I'll have to wait until 03-11+shipping to play with the bluetooth. |
| 01:47.13 | noiddpalm | what will kill me is that the countdown is only to shipping |
| 01:47.26 | SuN | Well the neo isn't that expensive so I'll probably get one eventually. |
| 01:47.31 | noiddpalm | how long is it going to take from .tw? |
| 01:47.46 | SpeedEvil | Generally 5 days to UK |
| 01:47.52 | noiddpalm | 350 is ammazingly cheap acually |
| 01:47.53 | SpeedEvil | From stuff I've bought |
| 01:48.01 | SpeedEvil | It's not _that_ cheap. |
| 01:48.02 | noiddpalm | I'm not in the uk anymore |
| 01:48.10 | noiddpalm | I'm an expat $$ |
| 01:48.23 | SpeedEvil | Go and compare phones with similar features on sim-free |
| 01:48.26 | SuN | It's going to depend on what's on the market in september, I guess. |
| 01:48.39 | Psi_ | i wonder if they will bring forward the march date if they end up with lots of phones left once the free ones have been given out in feb |
| 01:48.45 | *** join/#openmoko ajturner (n=ajturner@d14-69-64-67.try.wideopenwest.com) |
| 01:49.01 | SpeedEvil | Doubtful. |
| 01:49.24 | noiddpalm | they already have the 50 or so names I elieve |
| 01:49.25 | SpeedEvil | This sort of thing tends to be batches - you send it off to a board house that makes 1000 boards for you, populates them. |
| 01:49.29 | Elrond | What I hope for, is the freeing of gpsd.... |
| 01:49.35 | Psi_ | from a development point of view, the more ppl have a neo the quicker cools apps will start to surface |
| 01:49.48 | SpeedEvil | It costs more than 1/10th to build another 100 |
| 01:50.01 | SpeedEvil | You possibly can't open gpsd and sell it in the US and EU. |
| 01:50.12 | noiddpalm | elrod -0doubt it will happen with this module |
| 01:50.13 | SpeedEvil | As it would be a munition. |
| 01:50.27 | SpeedEvil | You have to have the hard-coded altitude/velocity limits in. |
| 01:50.31 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Why? |
| 01:50.40 | Elrond | Huh? |
| 01:50.45 | noiddpalm | true .. but let me say something controversial |
| 01:50.48 | SpeedEvil | Otherwise, someone will strap a USB ICBM to it. |
| 01:50.58 | SpeedEvil | And use it for guidance. |
| 01:51.05 | Psi_ | i wonder if the people who get free phones in feb will be able to show/talk a lot about them or if they will have the keep quiet until march |
| 01:51.15 | SuN | Haha -- "New hardware found: ICB Missile" |
| 01:51.21 | hrw|tv | cu |
| 01:51.36 | Elrond | Wait. You wanna tell me, that the chips make the accurcy worse than it alreay is? |
| 01:51.41 | SpeedEvil | No. |
| 01:51.42 | SuN | "Please wait while Windows attempts to install drivers for your new hardware" |
| 01:51.50 | noiddpalm | if you do not have critical mass on the softwaee BEFORE you send to devs they won't dev on it. |
| 01:51.52 | SpeedEvil | They clip speed to 1000 knots, and 30000 feet |
| 01:52.03 | SpeedEvil | IIRC |
| 01:52.24 | SpeedEvil | You don't see the limits unless you are using it for unusual stuff. |
| 01:52.24 | SuN | Is there anything that prevents a reimplementation though? |
| 01:52.34 | SpeedEvil | GPS is well publicised. |
| 01:52.40 | noiddpalm | if you send a device to a Gtk programmer which doesn't even have functioal X11 |
| 01:52.42 | SpeedEvil | And the format is well known. |
| 01:52.51 | noiddpalm | they will lose intwrest |
| 01:52.53 | SpeedEvil | It's pretty trivial to do a reciever. |
| 01:53.07 | noiddpalm | my guess is that is why they are pausong. |
| 01:53.22 | SuN | They're pausing? |
| 01:53.22 | SpeedEvil | Well, it's a moderately tough RF engineering challenge. |
| 01:53.35 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - That's, what I had understood. So I wondered, why they put limits in the chip, when one can create one on your own. |
| 01:53.37 | noiddpalm | between phase 0 and 1 |
| 01:53.54 | SuN | Oh. |
| 01:53.57 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - We do heavy RF stuff in the lab. :) |
| 01:54.03 | SuN | So X isn't finished yet? |
| 01:54.05 | noiddpalm | ie. 55 t first devs. then open sale to other devs. |
| 01:54.18 | noiddpalm | It is |
| 01:54.18 | SpeedEvil | Elrond: it used to be a lot harder - the intermediate 'half-GPS' chips make it much easier. |
| 01:54.29 | SuN | Then what are you saying? ;) |
| 01:54.31 | noiddpalm | I was making a fictioal example |
| 01:54.34 | SuN | Ahh |
| 01:54.54 | noiddpalm | as to a reason I would think they would do ot that way |
| 01:54.56 | SpeedEvil | The ones that output range-rates from the satellites, instead of absolute positions. |
| 01:55.09 | noiddpalm | its purely a hypothisi and prolly wrong. |
| 01:55.34 | Elrond | noiddpalm - It's viable. I'd guess, you're right. |
| 01:55.49 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Ahh. |
| 01:56.25 | noiddpalm | I'm sure x11 etc is working |
| 01:56.42 | newmedian | Erm, the GPS is the North American GPS, right? Are the new satellites operational? (EU, etc.)? I'm not up to speed on that. |
| 01:56.51 | noiddpalm | its a known package on several other similer platforms. |
| 01:56.57 | Elrond | SuN - Reimplement: Yep. We can run agpsd in a chroot with faked devices and see, what it's doing on them, etc. :) |
| 01:57.00 | noiddpalm | ok. my fingers hurt |
| 01:57.08 | noiddpalm | ill see yall later |
| 01:57.15 | SuN | Technically, no doubt. But legally? |
| 01:57.19 | Elrond | Later noiddpalm |
| 01:57.37 | noiddpalm | plus... I have a sond cue comming up. |
| 01:57.54 | Elrond | SuN - Which raises my old question: Is reverse engeneering for interoperatability still allowd in the EU? |
| 01:58.19 | SuN | I'm not sure if the EU has regulations for that, rather I think it differs per country. |
| 01:58.41 | Elrond | There was an EU interop-regulation. |
| 01:58.57 | Elrond | The bare question is, if the software-patent lobby has killed it. |
| 01:59.09 | SpeedEvil | IIRC, not yet. |
| 02:00.10 | SpeedEvil | We need to buy sealand for a dev platform :) |
| 02:00.13 | Elrond | The first thing we really should do on the phone: Put agpsd in a chroot, so it can't hurt the rest of the phone. :) |
| 02:00.56 | SuN | I was thinking the other day... it'd be fun to organize a coup d'etat of Sealand with a bunch of friends. |
| 02:01.23 | SpeedEvil | Good PR stunt too. |
| 02:02.12 | Elrond | Anyway, I'm going to my bed now. :) |
| 02:02.44 | SuN | G'night |
| 02:03.06 | SuN | Well, fact is, if you succeed, there's nothing they can do next to retaking it. |
| 02:05.16 | SuN | Voice commands work pretty well. |
| 02:06.10 | SuN | I wonder if there's anything OSS available to port to OpenMoko. |
| 02:24.48 | *** join/#openmoko cktakahasi (n=cktakaha@20150170137.user.veloxzone.com.br) |
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| 02:52.00 | *** part/#openmoko alvise (n=alvise@213-140-6-104.ip.fastwebnet.it) |
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| 04:18.27 | Mortimus | counter |
| 04:18.28 | aloril | 2 weeks 19:41:32 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 5 days for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 2 days for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 04:23.52 | *** part/#openmoko Mortimus (n=mortimus@pool-71-250-104-223.nwrknj.east.verizon.net) |
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| 06:43.45 | aloril | good thing that mass marked release date is at September, now people hopefully review it as developers device |
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| 06:56.57 | aloril | interest keeps increasing: |
| 06:56.59 | aloril | nick count records: 106 2006-12-04; 108 2006-12-07; 109 2006-12-12; 114 2006-12-13; 116 2006-12-20; 134 2007-01-11; 141 2007-01-12; 143 2007-01-13; 157 2007-01-15; 163 2007-01-16 ; 182 2007-01-17; 185 2007-01-19 ; 197 2007-01-20 ; 201 2007-01-21; 205 2007-01-22; 206 2007-01-23; 211 2007-01-25; 215 2007-01-26 |
| 07:01.56 | loft306 | hell yeah! aloril |
| 07:02.47 | aloril | counter |
| 07:02.47 | aloril | 2 weeks 16:57:13 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 5 days for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 2 days for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 07:04.11 | loft306 | just one Q can i use this in the us? and on what systems |
| 07:08.21 | wiml | loft306: it should be usable on any gsm network |
| 07:08.38 | loft306 | kool |
| 07:08.53 | *** join/#openmoko Ycros (n=Ycros@gnaw.yi.org) |
| 07:08.56 | wiml | cingular, tmobile are the big gsm providers in the us |
| 07:09.09 | loft306 | now be thinking trf to tell them that |
| 07:09.31 | loft306 | *try |
| 07:09.53 | loft306 | nn bed |
| 07:10.02 | loft306 | long day |
| 07:10.07 | wiml | :) |
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| 08:36.14 | The_Veginator | hello |
| 08:36.41 | XorA | yo |
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| 10:33.22 | CM | I'm wondering about using the Neo without a sim-card... |
| 10:33.39 | CM | Like as a gps, or notebook, or calendar or for some fun game |
| 10:33.49 | XorA | CM: dont see a problem with that |
| 10:33.54 | mjr | can't say for sure, not being a developer, but can't see why not |
| 10:34.25 | CM | I don't think it should be a problem either, but what about the agps for instance? |
| 10:34.36 | CM | Does that require that you have a sim-card? |
| 10:35.17 | *** join/#openmoko MetaBookfoziS (n=sajt@53d834ca.adsl.enternet.hu) |
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| 10:40.00 | Elrond | CM - The "a" in agps can be disabled, AFAIK. |
| 10:43.54 | mjr | yeah, the chip can reportedly work without assistance |
| 10:44.02 | mjr | just takes a bit longer to get the initial fix |
| 10:44.23 | Elrond | Most of us wont care, I guess. :) |
| 10:44.35 | mjr | yeah |
| 10:45.09 | Elrond | And I guess, when it has the first fix without assistance, it will get the next fix (when you leave the tunnel) faster. :) |
| 10:45.26 | mjr | yes, then you already have the relevant ephemeris data |
| 10:45.31 | *** join/#openmoko andgandolfi (n=andrea@host112-22-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) |
| 10:46.02 | Elrond | So mum and dad wont notice the missing A probably. :) |
| 10:46.33 | Elrond | For privacy reasons, I'd even commend to disable it by default. But that's me. |
| 10:46.44 | mjr | yes |
| 10:46.50 | mjr | I think me too |
| 10:47.28 | Elrond | But most mums and dads don't care too much for that sort of privacy. ;o) |
| 10:48.21 | Elrond | Or they assume, that it's all perfect. (in which case my suggested default would be the right thing.) |
| 10:48.27 | mjr | also, if I've understood correctly, if you get fixes like every 20 minutes or so, the ephemeris data should be kept up-to-date without assistance, keeping it "hot" for you... |
| 10:49.02 | mjr | but I may be wrong in that it would automatically get the new data along with a new fix |
| 10:49.14 | mjr | should be doable with some reasonable interval still |
| 10:49.14 | Elrond | The local ephemeris-data is valid for about two hours, I hear. |
| 10:49.22 | Elrond | So every half hour an update is lots. :) |
| 10:49.58 | CM | Would be interesting to see how accurate it is to measure speed |
| 10:50.14 | Elrond | Hey, yeah. |
| 10:50.50 | Elrond | My friend intends to buy a sirfIII, if I get the phone, I can do some comparison. ;) |
| 10:50.58 | CM | :) |
| 10:55.17 | Morgret | I've got a SIRF-III receiver -- HOLUX GPSlim236 |
| 10:57.46 | *** join/#openmoko greentux_nokia (n=greentux@tmo-022-102.customers.d1-online.com) |
| 11:00.56 | Morgret | $GPGGA,110046.000,5148.1103,N,00020.2703,W,1,05,1.8,115.7,M,47.0,M,,0000*4E |
| 11:01.08 | Morgret | <PROTECTED> |
| 11:01.10 | Morgret | :P |
| 11:01.26 | Morgret | I assume that the OM's GPS will use NMEA format too. |
| 11:02.48 | *** join/#openmoko l4rs (n=laprican@hsiproxy.astra-net.com) |
| 11:02.49 | Elrond | Morgret - We all hope so. |
| 11:03.28 | Elrond | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gps#Navigation_signals |
| 11:03.30 | sjoerd | If it output's NMEA, why does it need the proprietary gpsd ? |
| 11:03.42 | sjoerd | Or am i now confusing things :) |
| 11:03.44 | Morgret | Only for the assist, which is optional |
| 11:03.47 | Elrond | That sounds like one needs 12 minutes to get a full ephemeris/almanac. |
| 11:03.49 | sjoerd | ah |
| 11:03.57 | mjr | Morgret, hmh, afaik it needs it anyway? |
| 11:04.24 | Elrond | I think, it needs it anyway, as most of the calculations happen in the gpsd. :-| |
| 11:04.42 | mjr | the communication protocol to the gps chip is proprietary, it seems, and the gps daemon does at least some of the gps computation, is my impression |
| 11:04.45 | mjr | yeah |
| 11:04.59 | so_solid_moo | http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2006-December/000537.html |
| 11:05.06 | Morgret | mjr: don't think so, but don't quote me. :P I merely read a few articles on it when I got my GPSlim236 and begun scripting it. |
| 11:05.09 | mjr | the question is rather the output format of the agps daemon, but that can be munged... |
| 11:05.51 | mjr | anyway, props to anyone who manages to reverse-engineer the chip protocol and stick a free daemon behind it ;P |
| 11:07.12 | Morgret | I thought we won't have access to the chip, only to the serial interface. |
| 11:07.32 | mjr | correct |
| 11:07.41 | mjr | perhaps I should've said "in front of it" |
| 11:08.26 | Morgret | Well there's nothing to reverse engineer in the GPS then. :-) |
| 11:08.55 | mjr | anyway, chip communicates with proprietary agps daemon doing most of the calculations, communications protocol secret, so you need to reverse-engineer the protocol in order to replace the proprietary daemon that resides on the main soc |
| 11:09.04 | mjr | incorrect, see above |
| 11:09.39 | Morgret | Yeah but that's not GPS. That's AGPS. There's nothing in the GPS NMEA stream to reverse engineer, it's fully documented. |
| 11:09.54 | so_solid_moo | Morgret: he's saying it's not NMEA |
| 11:10.00 | Morgret | Ah |
| 11:10.02 | mjr | the "A" there doesn't really mean much |
| 11:10.19 | mjr | it just means that the daemon can get ephemeris data from the network in addition to the gps chip |
| 11:10.52 | Morgret | Fine, but it's unrelated to the GPS function ... it just extends it. |
| 11:11.12 | Elrond | Right. |
| 11:11.13 | mjr | correct, but the confusion here seems to be that the agps daemon only does the "A" bit |
| 11:11.17 | mjr | it doesn't |
| 11:11.20 | Elrond | But even without A, we need the daemon. |
| 11:11.34 | Elrond | Right. |
| 11:12.36 | Morgret | Well if it's the agpsd daemon that does the conversion of the GPS output into NMEA, then what we need to do first is to convert the output stream from the GPS into NMEA ourselves, which probably verges on the trivial. |
| 11:13.06 | Morgret | Worrying about the assist is secondary to being able to use our GPS peripheral. |
| 11:13.37 | mjr | I don't know much about GPS, but I agree it doesn't _seem_ it should be very complicated, unless the chip manufacturer has deliberately obfuscated things (and then one can debug the daemon) |
| 11:13.49 | Elrond | Well, yes. We need to understand the proprietary protocol for that. |
| 11:13.52 | *** join/#openmoko lightyear (n=lightyea@p54875E60.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 11:13.53 | mjr | and yes, the A bit is nonessential |
| 11:14.39 | Morgret | Well FIC are giving us a gadget with fully documented interfaces. They've always said that. So, the stream coming out of the GPS will be a known quantity. |
| 11:14.42 | Elrond | A plain chip doing nmea would have been better IMHO. |
| 11:15.13 | Elrond | Morgret - It will go through "our" kernel to userspace. So we surely have the stream. |
| 11:15.18 | mjr | (though if one manages to engineer a GPS daemon replacement that parses the proprietary format and does the GPS computation, it should be really trivial to get the assist data in, assuming a known and usable ephemeris source) |
| 11:15.47 | mjr | Elrond, would have, but I'm sure there were other factors in play... |
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| 11:16.42 | Morgret | mjr: indeed, from first principles. I don't really care much for reverse engineering a proprietary blob. It's not rocket science anyway, just orbital mechanics. :P |
| 11:16.42 | Elrond | mjr - At some time, I'd be curious on those other factors. |
| 11:17.47 | Elrond | Morgret - global locate might have obfuscated it. Then we're in the middle of big style reverse engeneering. ;) |
| 11:17.56 | so_solid_moo | probably to do with the non-moko phone fic are doing |
| 11:17.58 | Morgret | In fact, I'd guess that after a few months, we'll have the best GPS decoder around outside the forces :P |
| 11:18.29 | Elrond | *G* |
| 11:18.38 | mjr | Elrond, well, it's not _that_ big a deal to see what a program does to an input stream to de-munge it |
| 11:18.53 | Morgret | Yeah, but clean-room is better |
| 11:18.58 | mjr | sure, it would make it more difficult, but "big style", nah... |
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| 11:19.20 | Elrond | mjr - clean room. ;) That's just plain work. |
| 11:19.25 | mjr | Morgret, you can still do clean-room, it just means that the guy looking into the daemon writes the protocol spec but doesn't program the replacement |
| 11:19.51 | Elrond | Right. It's just work. |
| 11:20.06 | Morgret | Btw, what is the GPS chip in the device? I've got tons of references from when I was poking around with my 236. |
| 11:20.20 | mjr | whatwasit, some Hammerhead thingy |
| 11:20.31 | mjr | yes, Global Locate Hammerhead |
| 11:20.36 | Elrond | Morgret - A "global locate" one. (yes, the company, that was sued by sirf ;o) ) |
| 11:20.44 | Morgret | Hehe |
| 11:21.23 | Morgret | You've gotta take lawyers with a pinch of salt. And watch out for the arsenic. |
| 11:21.27 | Elrond | s/was/is being/ # I think. |
| 11:21.47 | mjr | (mind you, I'm talking lightly about the reverse-engineering, but I won't be the one doing it ;] ) |
| 11:22.16 | Elrond | mjr - tsts ;) |
| 11:22.20 | mjr | dunno much about gps and time is limited |
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| 11:27.34 | *** join/#openmoko Mortimus (n=mortimus@pool-71-250-104-223.nwrknj.east.verizon.net) |
| 11:28.34 | Mortimus | I just thought a good program feature. conversation view for text messaging |
| 11:34.41 | *** join/#openmoko AAM (n=aamiller@202.43.236.120) |
| 11:36.05 | AAM | hello! does anyone have any word on the release date for Neo1973? |
| 11:36.23 | ynezz | counter |
| 11:36.23 | aloril | 2 weeks 12:23:36 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 5 days for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 2 days for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 11:37.26 | ynezz | s/counter/counter strike/ |
| 11:38.33 | AAM | thanks. |
| 11:40.19 | *** join/#openmoko meandtheshell (n=markus@85-124-37-59.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at) |
| 11:42.02 | Mortimus | the masses seem to be awakening |
| 11:42.09 | hrw | hi |
| 11:42.16 | Mortimus | hi |
| 11:46.46 | Morgret | Guys, is it the Hammerhead (from 2005), or the Hammerhead II (improved 2007 device)? |
| 11:47.13 | mjr | I doubt it's the 2007 one since Neo1973 has been in the works from last year... |
| 11:47.48 | Morgret | Aye, although I don't know whether 2007 is the date of release of just date of latest docs |
| 11:51.45 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=bob@p85.212.139.152.tisdip.tiscali.de) |
| 11:52.53 | Elrond | Morgret - BTW: Does you sirf III output ephemeral data via the some vendor NMEA? (so that one can display funky pictures, which satelite is where on the sky?) ;) |
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| 12:25.31 | *** part/#openmoko AAM (n=aamiller@202.43.236.120) |
| 12:27.30 | Morgret | Elrond: sorry, was still trying to find data on the Hammerhead. Only found useless product briefs so far. Um, my Holux GPSlim236 is just a pure receiver, no UI. I'll get you a URL |
| 12:29.44 | Morgret | http://www.holux-uk.com/Products/gpslim236/index.shtml |
| 12:32.25 | Morgret | (NMEA's just the comms protocol -- see Wikipedia entry) |
| 12:33.11 | Morgret | That first line I posted coming outof my GPS was in NMEA format: |
| 12:33.24 | Morgret | $GPGGA,110046.000,5148.1103,N,00020.2703,W,1,05,1.8,115.7,M,47.0,M,,0000*4E |
| 12:35.37 | Morgret | And the answer is yes, it's all there in the output. The line I showed is just one type, of many kinds that are in the stream. |
| 12:36.10 | Morgret | I imagine there's one per satellite, for starters. |
| 12:42.57 | Morgret | <PROTECTED> |
| 12:42.59 | Morgret | <PROTECTED> |
| 12:43.04 | Morgret | Last field .... |
| 12:43.32 | Morgret | Considering that my altitude is actually 152m ... that's kind of shabby. I sure hope the Hammerhead is better. |
| 12:43.36 | Elrond | That is just the Positional information. |
| 12:43.41 | Morgret | Yep |
| 12:43.55 | Morgret | I've not decoded the other types of output. |
| 12:44.07 | Elrond | I think, there were some almanac-NMEA messages... but I haven't read too much on it either. |
| 12:44.13 | Elrond | Ahh. :) |
| 12:45.23 | Morgret | Makes for an accurate clock though :P |
| 12:46.11 | Morgret | I'm looking forward to mapping some towns for OpenStreetMap with the OM. |
| 12:46.31 | Elrond | Yeah. That's my main interest in the OM ;) |
| 12:46.49 | Elrond | Before I was looking at a garmin gpsmap60cx. ;) |
| 12:47.50 | Morgret | I've not looked at any actually. I only bought the Holux because I wanted to play with Bluetooth programming :-) |
| 12:48.22 | Elrond | hehe :) |
| 12:49.04 | Elrond | That garmin thing is a rugged outdoor thingy. Feels good in my hands and I don' have the impression, I can break it quickly. ;) |
| 12:49.11 | hrw | OpenStreetMap cover something other then UK? |
| 12:49.24 | Morgret | Whole planet |
| 12:49.33 | Elrond | hrw - Yes, central europe is getting better each day. |
| 12:49.38 | Morgret | Don't think it does Mars, but I'm sure it will one day ;-) |
| 12:49.59 | Elrond | hrw - But you can add data for any area. Even baghdad is being worked on. |
| 12:50.19 | Elrond | Well, mars does not fit in wgs84 ;o) |
| 12:51.37 | Morgret | Bah, WGS84 is antique ... should use the Galactic Geodetic System |
| 12:52.15 | Elrond | ;o) |
| 12:52.15 | Morgret | Using a suitably expanded meaning of the prefix "Geo" .... |
| 12:53.22 | Elrond | BTW mom/dad: We probably will need to make it play nice with *ugg* windows. |
| 12:53.59 | Morgret | You don't *need* to program Bluetooth to get at the NMEA stream btw .... "cat /dev/rfcomm1" will do nicely :-) |
| 12:55.26 | Morgret | Just let the Windows shareware developers do their usual thing ... I'm sure a million proggies will appear for that platform. |
| 12:55.41 | Morgret | Doesn't interest me anyway |
| 12:55.59 | Mortimus | ewww shareware |
| 12:56.24 | Morgret | Aye, very ewww. |
| 12:58.28 | Morgret | Oddly though, we're in a minority considering it ewww. The majority consider us odd in allowing only source code to enter our machines. |
| 12:59.13 | Elrond | Right. |
| 12:59.19 | buz | even as a linux user i find it odd to use sources |
| 12:59.24 | buz | as a bsd user i dont ;) |
| 12:59.34 | Morgret | Hehe |
| 12:59.35 | Elrond | I had to overcome all sorts of things to get me to install ewwww skype for work. ;) |
| 12:59.59 | Mortimus | all i had to do was emerge skype |
| 13:00.22 | Elrond | Mortimus - Which downloads a binary only thing, right? |
| 13:00.23 | Morgret | Yup, gentoo here as well |
| 13:01.19 | Mortimus | what got you into gentoo? |
| 13:01.53 | Morgret | Elrond: yep, as Skype is closed |
| 13:02.00 | Mortimus | for me it was the kick ass package manager |
| 13:02.19 | buz | i still find ports better than portage |
| 13:02.33 | buz | all this masking business is just weird |
| 13:02.58 | Elrond | I'm happy with apt / dpkg-buildpackage. ;) |
| 13:03.07 | buz | yeah me too |
| 13:03.08 | Mortimus | masking == stable |
| 13:03.18 | buz | tho i very rarely use buildpackage |
| 13:03.20 | Morgret | Mortimus: it's just the easiest distro to use, once installed. No dependency hell like with RPMs etc, since libs can't ever get out of sync. |
| 13:03.34 | buz | same with deb |
| 13:03.39 | buz | only you dont compile all the time |
| 13:04.31 | Morgret | Heh, funny, seeing as my main experiences with dependency hell was actually on Debian, not with RPMs. :P But I'm sure it's better now, that was many years ago. |
| 13:04.55 | buz | as long as you stick to ubuntu's own servers its fine |
| 13:04.59 | buz | trouble starts with external stuff |
| 13:05.18 | Mortimus | another annoying thing is the kernels on the other flavors, EVERYTHING is hotplug'ed |
| 13:05.19 | Morgret | But there is *always* external stuff! |
| 13:05.41 | Mortimus | portage overlays :) |
| 13:05.47 | buz | mhh only musicbrainz for me |
| 13:05.51 | Morgret | Indeed |
| 13:06.57 | Mortimus | is linux a "unix-type"? |
| 13:07.14 | Mortimus | i have a book that refers to linux as that |
| 13:07.46 | Morgret | Yeah, in practice. Quibbling about the terms is for lawyers. We all know exactly what we mean by it. |
| 13:08.46 | XorA | so bonus points for the first gentooMoKo distro for Neo :-) |
| 13:08.58 | Elrond | XorA - *lol* |
| 13:09.42 | Morgret | Well there's Gentoo Slug, and that comes off OE as well, so I assume we'll have a GentooMoko pretty soon. |
| 13:10.23 | Morgret | However, native emerges on the Neo would not be a good idea |
| 13:10.51 | Mortimus | buz what are the alternatives for system v init on bsd? |
| 13:11.27 | buz | mhh freebsd doesnt use runlevels really |
| 13:11.30 | Morgret | I very much doubt if Firefox would finish emerging on the phone native before the flash memory gets bit-rot from rising entropy. |
| 13:11.31 | buz | only single user and multi user |
| 13:11.38 | Elrond | Mortimus - You mean with all those hundred new init-replacements out there? ;o) |
| 13:11.39 | Mortimus | i remember finding a portage like binary distro |
| 13:11.50 | buz | most bsd packages exist as binaries |
| 13:12.01 | buz | its just easier to install it from sources |
| 13:12.11 | Mortimus | i know of 3 ish |
| 13:12.42 | buz | and as for multi user, bsd simply uses rc.d for that |
| 13:12.52 | Elrond | s/init-replacements/\& and daemon-startup-frameworks/ |
| 13:13.05 | XorA | Morgret: there is Zaurus Gentoo as well |
| 13:13.23 | Morgret | So still no way of stopping and starting subsystems on *BSD without modifying the filestore? |
| 13:13.32 | Elrond | apt: botsnack |
| 13:13.32 | apt | aw, gee, Elrond |
| 13:13.52 | buz | Morgret: what do you mean |
| 13:14.20 | Elrond | Morgret - bsd uses a little sysv-style init for ports. ;) |
| 13:14.32 | Elrond | Morgret - /usr/local/etc/*.d ;o) |
| 13:14.37 | Elrond | ... at least, I hear so. |
| 13:14.48 | Elrond | <-- gets some food. |
| 13:15.33 | Morgret | buz: say you want to stop networking ... can do you do it without modifying any files? Didn't used to be able to, which is why it wasn't much use in many live service situations where messing with the fs was verbotten. |
| 13:15.46 | Mortimus | ifconfig down |
| 13:15.50 | buz | ifconfig down |
| 13:15.58 | Morgret | That's not the whole service |
| 13:16.23 | buz | ? |
| 13:16.41 | Mortimus | ifconfig down resets route,s so yes it does |
| 13:17.01 | Mortimus | what else do you think runs when you start a networking device |
| 13:18.29 | Morgret | A million things, lol. Changing an individual interface is not the same things as bringing down a complete sybsystem :P |
| 13:18.40 | *** join/#openmoko koen (n=koen@ip5451781a.direct-adsl.nl) |
| 13:18.52 | hrw | hi koen |
| 13:19.18 | hadara | Morgret: /etc/rc.d/netif stop might be what you are after |
| 13:19.29 | koen | hey hrw |
| 13:20.13 | Morgret | hadara: maybe. But I'm talking generically .... there are hundreds of subsystems that one starts/stops. |
| 13:21.09 | buz | not sure why one would want that |
| 13:21.35 | Morgret | And starting/stopping them all in the same generic manner makes life much easier for the sysadmin. |
| 13:21.38 | hrw | hadara: /etc/init.d/netif in openmoko |
| 13:22.00 | buz | you can restart nearly all daemons with their respective rc.d scripts |
| 13:23.17 | Morgret | Hehe, I see nothing's changed then in *BSD circles. The request is still met with "I can't see why you'd want that." This is why *BSD doesn't get traction in some circles. Instead of responding to needs, it's directed in a few areas (this is the traditional one) by religion. |
| 13:23.33 | hadara | hmm |
| 13:23.49 | hadara | what _are_ you trying to achieve ? |
| 13:23.51 | Mortimus | stop smashing unix |
| 13:24.03 | Mortimus | its like the base of the internets |
| 13:24.38 | hadara | I have administrated 20+ fbsd boxes for 6+ years and not once have I used network start/stop scripts so yes I don't just know why would you want that |
| 13:24.45 | hadara | but the scripts do exist |
| 13:24.49 | hadara | if you want to use them |
| 13:25.08 | Morgret | Different people have different reqs. |
| 13:25.37 | hadara | on boot /etc/netstart is calles that just calls ~20 scripts under /etc/rc.d/ with start argument |
| 13:26.31 | Morgret | hadara: ah well there ya go, the BSDs have put in that kind of scheme too. Not surprised. |
| 13:26.32 | hadara | doing a stop would just require change of argument so I don't see what's wrong... the functionality is there, it's just that bsd people don't seem to use that particular way of doing things for one reason or another |
| 13:29.29 | *** join/#openmoko koen_ (n=koen@vpn006106.vpn.utwente.nl) |
| 13:29.31 | Mortimus | the unix kernel is still closed right? |
| 13:29.32 | hrw | Mortimus: which unix? |
| 13:29.33 | Morgret | LOL, which Unix kernel? Solaris is Unix. |
| 13:29.51 | Mortimus | i read somewhere that a company that wishes to modify the kernel source has to licence it from from company |
| 13:30.13 | Mortimus | then ask a different company to verify the unix name |
| 13:30.27 | Morgret | For most Unixes, yeah. But not OpenSolaris |
| 13:30.33 | koen_ | http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-devel/2007-January/000014.html |
| 13:31.43 | koen_ | only 2 weeks left :) |
| 13:32.04 | Mortimus | I should work on canceling my plan |
| 13:32.09 | Mortimus | for free |
| 13:32.39 | Morgret | Ah, interesting post, tnx koen |
| 13:33.04 | koen_ | Morgret: note that it doesn't work as-is, since OE still lacks the kernel and the sjf2410 thing |
| 13:33.25 | hrw | sjf? |
| 13:33.25 | Morgret | k |
| 13:33.30 | koen_ | and it's a few months old |
| 13:33.39 | Morgret | S3C2410 |
| 13:33.44 | koen_ | hrw: probably some tool to add a header for the flasher tool |
| 13:34.18 | koen_ | EXTRA_IMAGEDEPENDS += "sjf2410-linux-native" <- that one |
| 13:35.41 | Morgret | koen, do we have the stream spec for the Hammerhead PMB 2520? Oh and, what's our interface to the chip? |
| 13:36.00 | koen_ | Morgret: not that I know off |
| 13:36.06 | koen_ | there was some pdf doc somewhere |
| 13:36.26 | Morgret | I've only found useless product briefs so far. |
| 13:37.30 | Elrond | flasher tool: How geekproof is the neo? ;) |
| 13:38.54 | hrw | ah.. I see |
| 13:38.54 | hrw | koen_: I'm curious does phase0 devs will get phone before fosdem.. |
| 13:38.54 | hrw | SJF2410 can program SMDK2410 flash memory |
| 13:38.54 | hrw | http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/jikorhon/gp32/dl/sjf2410_v4_jtag_schema.pdf |
| 13:38.59 | hrw | so it is not needed for most of devs |
| 13:39.04 | hrw | its jtag tool |
| 13:39.05 | hrw | argh.. it need parallel port... |
| 13:39.19 | koen_ | hrw: if they can't make it, they could hand them out at fosdem |
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| 13:39.43 | Mortimus | that test went horribly |
| 13:39.48 | koen_ | (the neo's, not the jtag cables) |
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| 14:21.46 | Morgret | OK, I give up trying to find the datasheet on the Hammerhead 2520 GPS chip. The only thing that Infineon and Global Locate seem to provide is the glossy marketroid brochures. |
| 14:22.55 | Morgret | FIC must have the datasheet though, as they designed the chip into the Neo. |
| 14:23.28 | SpeedEvil | Generally, for hard to use chips - mobile, gps, ... it can be the case that there is no way to get datasheets without talking to them. |
| 14:24.18 | SpeedEvil | You may have to sign stuff, or convince them that you're a potential volume purchaser - as they are going to likely have to support you with valuable engineer time, and it's not worth it for onesy-twoesy purchasers. |
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| 14:24.56 | Morgret | Depends on the company. Global Locate's website is just a pure glossy thing for managers to look at, so unhelpful for engineering. But plenty of companies do a full documentation job, with full engineering datasheet PDFs for every chip. |
| 14:26.34 | Morgret | Like Samsung say, for the S3C2410 in the OM. We have the works. |
| 14:27.08 | SpeedEvil | However, for example, TI |
| 14:27.16 | SpeedEvil | They do docs for 99.9% of their stuff. |
| 14:27.25 | SpeedEvil | But not their 'all in one chip' GSM phone. |
| 14:27.36 | SpeedEvil | It's just a couple of pages of PDF. |
| 14:27.41 | Morgret | Aha, not looked. |
| 14:28.00 | koen | mickeyl: did I already show you http://www.burtonini.com/blog/computers/lemonade-2007-01-23-13-10?showcomments=yes ? |
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| 14:45.48 | Morgret | LOL, I'm finding Global Locate on the shit list of various GPS and PDA blogs and forums ... apparently totally unhelpful. I guess FIC managed to be more pursuasive, hehe. |
| 14:46.18 | XorA | $$$ speak |
| 14:46.22 | Morgret | Aye |
| 14:46.27 | mickey|sports | koen: yeah, thanks. I wonder whether this may be any better than tinymail |
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| 14:54.28 | Elrond | Morgret - Let me guess, the only thing not on the shit list, are nmea talking devices? ;) |
| 14:55.01 | SpeedEvil | 'We have a product that we want to build 50000 of with your chip' tends to get more docs than someone with one in a device mailing. |
| 14:55.51 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Yep. Just it doesn't help us. ;) |
| 14:56.08 | l3010o | counter |
| 14:56.08 | aloril | 2 weeks 09:03:51 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 5 days for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 2 days for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 14:56.54 | Elrond | So in about 2 weeks + shipping, we know more about the gps cjip, hopefully. :) |
| 14:57.39 | Elrond | neo-strace ;) |
| 14:58.11 | l3010o | the gps chip. wouldn't it be nearly useless if there is no map? |
| 14:58.21 | SpeedEvil | Not quite. |
| 14:58.28 | SpeedEvil | You can pull maps from gmaps |
| 14:59.20 | SpeedEvil | I forgot to kill a process I started that fetched a google maps tile a second around my local location - I found out when I ran out of disk space. |
| 14:59.58 | l3010o | sadly i still cant find the map of HK for free, but only from google map |
| 14:59.58 | SpeedEvil | However, getting map tiles for a journey isn't too bad. |
| 15:00.14 | SpeedEvil | Free maps are _very_ uncommon. |
| 15:00.29 | SpeedEvil | As they are expensive datasets to make. |
| 15:01.48 | SpeedEvil | I wonder how much TomTom would want for a neo version. |
| 15:01.56 | Morgret | Elrond: don't know, didn't hang around there long enough to look for others, just focussing on Infineon/Global Locate. |
| 15:04.38 | Morgret | Oh, we're not talking about maps at this stage for the OM. We merely want to talk to the hardware that's provided, and that's ample for street logging to help out OpenStreetMaps, and for personal orienteering etc.. |
| 15:04.48 | l3010o | FICwont buy any maps for neo? |
| 15:05.10 | rboehme | If TomTom comes out with a Neo version, I would buy it in a heartbeat |
| 15:07.27 | rboehme | What software license (and link) would you reccommend if I 1) Want the ability for others to modify and use my code, provided they make a copy of the source available and 2) Doesn't restrict commercial usage. |
| 15:07.36 | SpeedEvil | Hmm - that's not a horrible price - 80 quid. |
| 15:07.55 | SpeedEvil | For most of europe in detailed maps on DVD, running on comparable devices. |
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| 15:11.59 | SpeedEvil | GPL works |
| 15:12.11 | SpeedEvil | They can sell it as long as they provide source |
| 15:12.22 | xkr47 | noidd, scanning countdown ? do you mean the javascript thing ?-) |
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| 15:18.24 | rboehme | SpeedEvil: GPL specifically doesn't work - if they derive from it for a commercial app, the commercial app is forced to become free - and thus they won't do it. LGPL, on the other hand, or BSD might do it. However, I'm appealing to people who know more about licensing than I do. |
| 15:19.13 | Morgret | The free maps that Gpsdrive downloads work fine for around here, SE England. Not very detailed, but at least they exist. |
| 15:19.47 | Morgret | http://gpsdrive.kraftvoll.at/ |
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| 15:22.23 | variant | rboehme: they can still sell it though.. |
| 15:27.29 | xkr47 | noidd, one could maybe do some nice gallery with that whatwg thing.) |
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| 15:55.39 | SpeedEvil | The commercial app is not forced to become free - it's forced to provide source. |
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| 15:56.12 | XorA | SpeedEvil: + to purchasers |
| 15:56.12 | SpeedEvil | Which may in some cases mean effectively the same thing. |
| 15:56.17 | SpeedEvil | yes. |
| 15:56.25 | SpeedEvil | you can still sell it though. |
| 15:57.35 | Ycros | you only have to give source to whoever you distribute to |
| 15:57.45 | Ycros | they, of course, can distribute it to everyone else |
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| 16:52.54 | Morgret | There will undoubtedly be openness politics surrounding OpenMoko+Neo throughout their lives. AFAIAC though, this is between you and your conscience. I'd like everyone to support pure free software and nothing else ... but for me to coerce that view onto another would itself be both morally and practically indefensible. |
| 16:53.19 | Morgret | OM+Neo is (for me) a FOSS phone. It doesn't have to be so for everyone. |
| 16:53.47 | CM | My mom wouldn't understand the difference, as long as she didn't have to pay for the software |
| 16:54.14 | dottedmag | Morgret: well, you can't technically prevent proprietary software without some kind of Anti-DRM ;) |
| 16:54.16 | CM | "Why would anyone want to see the code?" Some people... |
| 16:54.25 | xorAxAx | CM: then you didnt explain it well enough |
| 16:54.28 | Morgret | Aye :P and ditto. But I will buy OMs for the whole family. I won't be indoctrinating them. |
| 16:55.06 | CM | xorAxAx: Hehe, I agree I'm not the best one at explaining, but my mom isn't exactly tech-interested.. |
| 16:56.08 | Morgret | dottedmag: correct. And trying to do so is itself an abridgement of freedom. What's important is that we try to increase our OWN freedom. Going beyond that brings in dangers. |
| 16:56.52 | Morgret | "YOU SHALL BE FREE" is a self-contraction :P |
| 16:57.51 | xorAxAx | CM: the difference is primarily non-technical |
| 16:58.06 | xorAxAx | CM: but i havent explained it to her either |
| 16:58.11 | CM | Hehe |
| 16:58.36 | CM | It's just like she doesn't see the point, as long as it doesn't cost money, how can it matter if you can get the code or not |
| 16:59.52 | xorAxAx | CM: thats easy to answer ... just sketch a few scenarios that would differently end in both worlds |
| 17:00.06 | xorAxAx | explain her what the weird buzzword vendor-lock-in means |
| 17:00.41 | xorAxAx | try to use RMS' weird analogy with recipes ... |
| 17:01.07 | koen | but don't say "if something goes wrong, I can fix it" |
| 17:01.25 | buz | jeez that renaissance guy is full of it |
| 17:01.39 | Morgret | I once had an argument about Windows with my sister (we're both adults), who had never heard about Linux or FOSS or anything like that. I was completely rational/calm+collected about it. Yet I realized later that I must have appeared as a total loon. Never again. People have to learn hard lessons by themselves, you can't teach it. |
| 17:02.15 | buz | i only get into that argument with either techies or libertarians |
| 17:02.23 | buz | the latter usually see the point |
| 17:02.35 | Morgret | Yep |
| 17:02.40 | buz | and the former at least technically get what i'm speaking about |
| 17:02.50 | koen | buz: unsubscribe from the community list, lowers your blood pressure |
| 17:03.31 | buz | i like my buzz of flaming |
| 17:03.34 | buz | but i should be learning |
| 17:04.10 | koen | The developers list is *awesome* |
| 17:04.22 | xorAxAx | Morgret: you dont have to suggest linux |
| 17:04.59 | xorAxAx | there are other projects on earth as well |
| 17:05.12 | Morgret | koen: I haven't even joined. I've been on too many MLs, you realize at some point that public discussions don't help. |
| 17:05.58 | CM | koen: I agree, no noise there :) |
| 17:06.03 | koen | Morgret: I continue to be amazed by laziness and apathy some people seem to posses |
| 17:06.16 | buz | i can even see why users wouldnt care if something is OSS |
| 17:06.25 | buz | i cant see why they wouldnt care that the FORMATS are open |
| 17:06.28 | koen | especially what would be called 'n00bs' by todays teenagers |
| 17:07.17 | buz | people are sheep, really |
| 17:07.30 | CM | And lazy |
| 17:07.45 | koen | buz: too bad you can't eat people and use their wool |
| 17:07.45 | nbd | laziness is not necessarily bad |
| 17:07.54 | nbd | at least not all kinds of laziness are |
| 17:07.59 | koen | nbd: it is when it wastes other people's time |
| 17:08.04 | koen | (e.g. mine) |
| 17:08.05 | buz | laziness is good for engineers if it causes them to do things right the first time |
| 17:08.06 | xorAxAx | guys, you need a technical solution to a social issue - get a working NUA |
| 17:08.10 | nbd | buz: exactly |
| 17:08.22 | buz | smart lazy people are goo |
| 17:08.23 | buz | d |
| 17:08.33 | CM | That's more about being efficient |
| 17:08.34 | buz | they usually try to minimize work, not just avoid it at first |
| 17:08.41 | nbd | too lazy to type, but not too lazy to think |
| 17:08.48 | CM | Using the best tools, don't duplicate work and so on |
| 17:08.50 | koen | lazy 'OMG GNU!!!' or lazy 'OMG WIFI!!!' people are bad |
| 17:08.52 | buz | proper laziness is about efficiency very much |
| 17:09.22 | Morgret | koen: not worried by laziness and apathy, they're neutral. The problem issue for me are those things that prevent projects going into higher gear, like fanboys and entrenchment. Neutral is fine. |
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| 17:12.16 | buz | if laziness implies people will shut up, all the better |
| 17:12.24 | Morgret | :-) |
| 17:14.51 | variant | to avoid that sort of thing put "Strictly for development talk only" when the phone is actually available ;) |
| 17:14.59 | variant | in the topic* |
| 17:16.15 | buz | says lounge |
| 17:16.25 | buz | rather branch out to #openmoko-dev |
| 17:17.37 | Morgret | Let this channel remain a lounge, since #OpenMoko is where random people will come by default. But make new channels for dev and help with very strict charters. |
| 17:17.45 | Morgret | Hehe, you beat me to it |
| 17:17.47 | buz | agreed |
| 17:21.02 | Morgret | Criticisms and way-out suggestions and even flames are good. Just not in the wrong place. |
| 17:21.20 | Morgret | CM: ouch |
| 17:22.42 | Morgret | counter |
| 17:22.43 | aloril | 2 weeks 06:37:17 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 5 days for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 2 days for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 17:22.46 | Morgret | :P |
| 17:22.51 | Morgret | I'm sure it's stuck. |
| 17:23.28 | mikesh | 2weeks? good, i am looking forward to first feelings of neo |
| 17:23.54 | Morgret | Just follow the white rabbit ... |
| 17:26.07 | Morgret | I wonder whether some tech reviewer is included among the 50. At some point FIC will be seeding the magazines, inevitably. |
| 17:26.46 | SpeedEvil | Probably not. Unless they are friendly already. |
| 17:27.06 | buz | fic will seed the magazines in september i guess |
| 17:27.08 | Morgret | Linux mags :-) There's a ton of them in UK |
| 17:27.30 | SpeedEvil | You don't want marginally featured stuff going to reviewers that can say 'meh - works mostly'. |
| 17:27.30 | Morgret | yeah |
| 17:27.35 | SpeedEvil | You want it going to reviewers that can legitimately go OMG - Ponies. |
| 17:27.43 | Morgret | Hahahaaha |
| 17:27.45 | SpeedEvil | If it's got a stable management app in it. |
| 17:27.56 | Morgret | You reckon ee e n e |
| 17:28.24 | Morgret | Cripes, KVM's went potty |
| 17:29.02 | Morgret | You reckon FIC will be producing a cute pink model then? Ponies!!!!! |
| 17:30.20 | Morgret | Seriously, there have to be different coloured shells. I can't buy everyone in the family the same colour one for Xmas. |
| 17:30.48 | Morgret | I'd get murdered :P |
| 17:36.48 | SpeedEvil | Missing the 'exchangable shell' thing if you possibly can avoid missing it is a very bad idea. |
| 17:37.11 | SpeedEvil | We _want_ mobile myspace on this thing. |
| 17:37.18 | SpeedEvil | Or similar. |
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| 18:54.35 | zipola | Morgret: You could paint or carve or get it painted somewhere. Those services might bee a bit too expensive though. |
| 19:06.48 | buz | i'd love a brushed metal shell |
| 19:06.51 | buz | but that wont help RF |
| 19:07.24 | Elrond | hihi, rugged neo? ;) |
| 19:18.35 | buz | na, shiny |
| 19:18.40 | buz | shiny is always good |
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| 19:21.38 | drizato | hey, does anyone know how much the openmoko is going to cost when it comes out? |
| 19:22.10 | morricone | 350$ |
| 19:22.25 | drizato | not bad... It looks awesome! |
| 19:22.39 | drizato | i was reading about it in Linux Journal the other day |
| 19:24.45 | koen | oooooooh |
| 19:24.49 | koen | sean-mail :) |
| 19:25.03 | alphaone | yay! |
| 19:27.41 | drizato | thanks for the sarcasm... It makes this channel very friendly! |
| 19:28.06 | alphaone | drizato: ? |
| 19:29.34 | drizato | I remember reading that the device will run a proprietary GSM stack.... will the OS be Linux? |
| 19:31.20 | koen | no, probably some custom TI rt kernel |
| 19:31.25 | XorA | koen: whats the news¿ |
| 19:31.25 | alphaone | So what are the requirements for shipping to germany? |
| 19:31.32 | alphaone | drizato: The OS on the GSM stack? I don't think so. |
| 19:31.55 | koen | XorA: Subject: Congratulations: You Have Won a Free Neo1973! |
| 19:32.04 | XorA | koen: sorted |
| 19:32.22 | drizato | I figured that the GSM stack would be a module used by the Linux Kernel |
| 19:32.33 | mjr | no, it's on a separate chip |
| 19:33.01 | LoRez | drizato: you talk to the gsm module via serial commands |
| 19:33.19 | drizato | got it... thanks! |
| 19:33.43 | mjr | I didn't either, those bastards. Only because I haven't done embedded development and didn't apply. |
| 19:33.59 | drizato | so much for assumptions |
| 19:34.28 | drizato | I'd still like to play around with one of these... |
| 19:35.40 | XorA | mjr: maybe you win one later, and only need to pay the 350$ claiming fee |
| 19:36.02 | drizato | gotta go take the wife shopping *yay* thanks for the info |
| 19:36.20 | *** part/#openmoko drizato (n=sean@71.15.101.52) |
| 19:41.35 | ajturner | so they're already announcing who is getting a dev Neo? |
| 19:45.17 | koen | ajturner: not announcing, but sending mails to the devs |
| 19:45.27 | ajturner | koen: right, that's what I meant :) |
| 19:45.59 | ajturner | hrm, oh well - hopefully something comes through. |
| 19:46.16 | ajturner | I would really like to start playing with the location options: gps, gsm geoloc, etc. |
| 19:47.11 | ajturner | did they ever mention how many dev units will be shipped? |
| 19:47.20 | koen | 50 or 100 iirc |
| 19:51.23 | SpeedEvil | Well - you can just feed a normal GPS into your dev program. |
| 19:51.33 | SpeedEvil | Bluetooth, ... |
| 19:52.13 | ajturner | well, I would like to know more of the specifics on the Neo |
| 19:52.27 | ajturner | ideas on how to integrate OpenStreetMap data, navigation |
| 19:52.39 | ajturner | geoblogging - local georss feeds :) |
| 19:52.49 | SpeedEvil | That's all rather irrelevant to the neo. |
| 19:53.01 | SpeedEvil | You have a GPS feed, and a 480*640 display. |
| 19:53.05 | koen | that reminds me.... |
| 19:53.08 | SpeedEvil | And a touchscreen |
| 19:53.39 | SpeedEvil | There is nothing there you actually need a neo for - though it'd be nice. |
| 19:53.45 | ajturner | koen: http://www.dankarran.com/blog/archives/2007/01/25/kml_and_georss_now_ready_for_drupal_50.php |
| 19:53.59 | koen | :) |
| 19:53.59 | ajturner | stop being so mean to Drupal ;) |
| 19:54.13 | koen | it supports postgres as well? |
| 19:54.24 | koen | most drupal devs seem to be 13 year old mysql users :( |
| 19:54.28 | ajturner | I'm not sure about that - I haven't dug into it yet |
| 19:54.33 | ajturner | Dan isn't |
| 19:54.50 | koen | s/dev/module authors/ |
| 19:55.05 | xorAxAx | people with dark coloured hats like drupal and joomla :) |
| 19:55.23 | ajturner | speaking of, I need to add that news to the GeoRSS blog |
| 19:55.27 | xorAxAx | two systems that can easily load hole-plugins |
| 19:58.33 | *** join/#openmoko friedel (n=fwolff@dsl-244-211-32.telkomadsl.co.za) |
| 19:58.47 | ajturner | btw SpeedEvil - h/w demos better ;) |
| 19:58.58 | SpeedEvil | Oh I utterly agree. |
| 19:59.13 | orospakr | Don't even talk to me about Drupal. |
| 20:01.35 | xorAxAx | dont forget that it is a feature when russian and chinese skilled professionals administrate your server after you installed one of those applications :) |
| 20:02.38 | orospakr | haha, that too. ;) |
| 20:02.58 | *** join/#openmoko johnny67 (n=johnny67@S0106000475d5b7c2.vn.shawcable.net) |
| 20:04.47 | XorA | koen: just found sean mail in my actual mailbox, that guy is too clever |
| 20:08.18 | *** join/#openmoko pH5 (n=ph5@e178234158.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 20:08.41 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@9.80-202-160.nextgentel.com) |
| 20:10.15 | koen | XorA: :D |
| 20:10.40 | mjr | bastard, I tell you |
| 20:12.25 | Morgret | Hey, I've not heard this topic aired before ... (maybe on ML?): the west is not the only area of the world interest in FOSS. Indeed, the Neo is native to the far east, so one could reasonably expect interest at home to be even higher than here. So ... what's happening out yonder? Is there an eastern OpenMoko too, and a whole other group of enthusiats, quite possible even larger than ourselves? |
| 20:13.47 | Morgret | Calling FIC .... ;-) |
| 20:16.58 | *** join/#openmoko The_Veginator (n=The_Vegi@adsl-70-231-229-24.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net) |
| 20:19.15 | *** join/#openmoko tomjoad4500 (n=tomjoad4@adsl-70-130-201-119.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net) |
| 20:26.05 | *** join/#openmoko mlpug (n=user@a85-156-253-211.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 20:26.30 | Morgret | I just did a channel /who and only one far eastern host was obvious by domain (plenty unresolved hosts though, and with generic global domains). Not sure if this means anything, probably not. But at least it might mean that there isn't a large eastern presence here. So ... where is it? Elsewhere? |
| 20:27.21 | *** join/#openmoko Sencer (i=Sencer@gateway/tor/x-e0207a0282166211) |
| 20:30.31 | Sencer | so... are people over the "OMG, WIFI!?!11"-phase? |
| 20:30.45 | Morgret | Nope, coz there is no wifi |
| 20:32.52 | LittleIdiot | well my host didn't resolve, but i'm from old europe ;) |
| 20:33.16 | LittleIdiot | ...if you wanna call that eastern ;) |
| 20:33.37 | Morgret | Heh, I wonder which Europe is the oldest ... .at? |
| 20:33.52 | LittleIdiot | germany |
| 20:34.00 | Morgret | Or .no |
| 20:34.40 | Morgret | No, .at predates central and northern europe, we were barbarians during the golden Athenic period |
| 20:34.47 | *** join/#openmoko zween (n=zween@80-47-217-202.lond-th.dynamic.dial.as9105.com) |
| 20:34.55 | SpeedEvil | .kremlin.ru? |
| 20:34.56 | LittleIdiot | according to bush rather germany and france ;) |
| 20:34.59 | SpeedEvil | kremvax? |
| 20:35.13 | SpeedEvil | Or rather kremlin!ru |
| 20:35.19 | Morgret | LOL, according to bush 1+2 == 878976234098 |
| 20:35.32 | lamby | Sencer: hehe |
| 20:36.14 | LittleIdiot | well, for very, very large values of 1 and 2... |
| 20:36.29 | Morgret | And according to Blair, 1+2 = 976987 ... so the insanity in UK vs US is only a matter of degree |
| 20:36.48 | Morgret | LI: hehe, nicely put |
| 20:39.57 | Morgret | Come to think of it, Neo/OM will probably be banned in the UK, because it can't be bugged by the police state, which is UK >>>>>>>> US. |
| 20:40.31 | Morgret | See US, UK rulez!!! :-( |
| 20:40.32 | LittleIdiot | well, they dont ban old phones, do they? |
| 20:40.33 | lamby | Morgret: I really doubt that. |
| 20:40.59 | SpeedEvil | Well - ROHS |
| 20:41.05 | *** join/#openmoko Moox (n=dgo@84-74-227-80.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 20:41.11 | SpeedEvil | But that doesn't apply to existing items. |
| 20:41.15 | LittleIdiot | i'm using a me45. old & robust ;) |
| 20:41.23 | lamby | Morgret: especially considering if you were bugging the mobile phone network you wouldn't put bugs on individual phones, you'd go after the network providers, or listen into the airwaves yourself. |
| 20:41.37 | Morgret | J/K. But the fact of UK surveilance goes far beyond what we considered fiction just 10 years ago. |
| 20:41.40 | SpeedEvil | You ideally want bugs on phones too. |
| 20:41.46 | SpeedEvil | So you can turn the mic on remotely. |
| 20:42.14 | Moox | hi there. Will the neo1973 have : a memory card slot ? A camera ? A syncML client ? |
| 20:42.15 | LittleIdiot | SpeedEvil: you can if they can flash your firmware or if that was build in before |
| 20:42.21 | lamby | SpeedEvil: eh? why don't you just sit 100s of miles away with a receiver and listen in on 1000s of people at once. :/ |
| 20:42.37 | Morgret | Moox: yes. no, up to community |
| 20:42.45 | *** join/#openmoko Mortimus (n=mortimus@pool-71-250-104-223.nwrknj.east.verizon.net) |
| 20:42.55 | LittleIdiot | but you know that phones near speakers make noise, so keep it there for a while and listen if it's making any noise |
| 20:43.00 | SpeedEvil | Because eavesdropping GSM is annoyingly hard. |
| 20:43.18 | Mortimus | you mean static |
| 20:43.25 | lamby | SpeedEvil: subphoena the network operators then. |
| 20:43.26 | LittleIdiot | no its not. you just have to have a stronger signal ;) |
| 20:43.29 | SpeedEvil | It's much nicer if you can get the phone to relay conversations in its vicinity. even when 'off'. |
| 20:44.06 | Mortimus | you get that out of any device that uses at switching power supply |
| 20:44.11 | LittleIdiot | you may not listen "live" because cracking takes some time, but you can record conversations and wait a few days |
| 20:44.13 | SpeedEvil | It's not static - it's the blipping sort of noise you get when it's close to a (amplified) speaker or radio |
| 20:44.20 | Moox | Morgret: thanks. And what about a JVM ? a (friendly) SDK ? Special price for developers ? |
| 20:44.34 | Mortimus | take an am radio tune it between stations and hold it to your monitor |
| 20:44.44 | Mortimus | you will get something similar |
| 20:45.38 | Mortimus | blipping might be a a clock of some sort |
| 20:45.44 | Morgret | The point about phone bugging referred to the fact that automatic phone firmware updates can trivially contain bugs. Well in OM, we control the circuit from microphone to mobile, so that's simply not possible even if the cellular hidden blob is bugged. |
| 20:45.48 | SpeedEvil | Moox: no camera, card slot, if you want to write one, or if someone does. |
| 20:45.59 | CM | Moox: Same thing there, a jvm as soon as it's in openembedded |
| 20:46.16 | SpeedEvil | Moox: anything you want can be installed if you find someone to code it and the CPU can handle it. |
| 20:46.24 | LittleIdiot | Morgret: do we know what's in the gsm transceiver blackbox? |
| 20:46.35 | LittleIdiot | ...maybe they can flash that one |
| 20:46.46 | SpeedEvil | It's pretty easy to dissasemble (physically) the gsm tranciever and look for a mic. |
| 20:46.55 | SpeedEvil | The point is that the gsm tranciever has no mic. |
| 20:47.00 | SpeedEvil | We feed it audio. |
| 20:47.05 | Morgret | Moox: JVM is up to community. SDK is standard OE. Special price ... you must be joking, get in line :P |
| 20:47.08 | SpeedEvil | If we do not feed it audio, it's deaf. |
| 20:47.26 | LittleIdiot | sure, but it has firmware... maybe it's able to download firmware via gsm |
| 20:47.26 | Moox | CM : on my nokia 770, it wasn't possible to install a JVM because they were licenses problems with the ARM java accelerator or something like that |
| 20:47.46 | SpeedEvil | LittleIdiot: the mic is not under the control of the GSM module, but the linux bit. |
| 20:47.50 | Morgret | LittleIdiot: we don't know what's in the GSM black box ... but it's not the main phone's microphone ... we control that :P |
| 20:48.10 | SpeedEvil | Do we also control the vertical? |
| 20:48.14 | Moox | Morgret: arf, I saw for developers who already commit their devs in a known project,,, I never did that before |
| 20:48.16 | Morgret | Hahahaha |
| 20:48.25 | Morgret | SpeedEvil: retro :P |
| 20:50.49 | Morgret | Moox: there are no licensing problems on the Neo/OM ... or else FIC makes a loss as most of the FOSS entusiasts withdraw. It's that simple. |
| 20:51.30 | SpeedEvil | Well - there is the GPSd thing. |
| 20:51.35 | SpeedEvil | Though that probably won't bother many. |
| 20:52.15 | Morgret | That's only for assisted mode. ASSUMING that FIC give us the datasheet for the Hammerhead. If not, then that have some explaining to do, and I won't be in a generous mood. |
| 20:52.37 | LittleIdiot | will we be able to tell the gsm module which "tower" it should connect to? |
| 20:52.52 | LittleIdiot | ...if so, i wonder if we can make tracking a little harder ;) |
| 20:53.08 | LittleIdiot | chaning transmit powers, changing cells... |
| 20:53.35 | Mortimus | you can only push hardware so far |
| 20:53.45 | Mortimus | then it will sizzle |
| 20:55.08 | *** part/#openmoko neurocyte (n=cjvdb@p54A75E3C.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 20:58.03 | SpeedEvil | We do not get raw access to GSM. |
| 20:58.04 | Morgret | Talking about being in a generous mood ... notice that we're not just consumers here. It goes a bit deeper than that. And that has ramifications. |
| 20:58.16 | SpeedEvil | Only to talk via the simple interface to the GSM module. |
| 20:58.32 | SpeedEvil | You are not going to be able to use it for hacking/phreaking. |
| 20:58.56 | koen | SpeedEvil: that's not entirely true |
| 20:59.07 | SpeedEvil | It's not? |
| 20:59.15 | koen | SpeedEvil: can flash flash the gsm firmware using the audio connector |
| 20:59.27 | Morgret | Sure, there's a clear physical line drawn. We are in control of the vertical^H^H^YH^H^H host CPU and everything it can touch. Nothing more. |
| 20:59.55 | SpeedEvil | Well, that pretty much requires either docs, or a really uncritical returns policy to get working. |
| 21:00.05 | SpeedEvil | Flashing the GSM with your own image. |
| 21:00.15 | Morgret | Returns policy? |
| 21:00.22 | koen | I suspect it's an arm7 |
| 21:00.34 | SpeedEvil | 'It stopped working, I don't know why, can I have a new one' |
| 21:01.24 | Morgret | They'll refund the ARM, but not the leg :P |
| 21:01.42 | *** part/#openmoko Sencer (i=Sencer@gateway/tor/x-e0207a0282166211) |
| 21:02.10 | *** join/#openmoko Demitar_ (n=demitar@c-212-031-189-107.cust.broadway.se) |
| 21:03.03 | *** join/#openmoko stefan_schmidt (n=stefan@datenfreihafen.org) |
| 21:03.10 | *** join/#openmoko Shoragan (n=shoragan@datenfreihafen.org) |
| 21:03.18 | *** join/#openmoko alphaone (n=daniel@datenfreihafen.org) |
| 21:04.19 | Morgret | That said ... we are part of FIC's success, or failure, it's a very novel experimental partnership, and I don't think they will want to alienate their partners. |
| 21:04.25 | *** part/#openmoko Moox (n=dgo@84-74-227-80.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 21:05.34 | *** join/#openmoko Demitar__ (n=demitar@c-212-031-189-107.cust.broadway.se) |
| 21:06.50 | Morgret | On the other hand, Neo/OM is only a minor project in FIC, it's a big company. The CEO might not even have heard of it .... we'll have to see. |
| 21:07.17 | *** join/#openmoko cworth (n=cworth@c-67-160-161-141.hsd1.or.comcast.net) |
| 21:11.48 | *** join/#openmoko Mortimus (n=mortimus@pool-71-250-104-223.nwrknj.east.verizon.net) |
| 21:13.50 | Morgret | Oh wait, the guys did a show exhibit or two, he must have signed off on expenses! Yes, the CEO knows we're here! ;-) |
| 21:16.51 | Morgret | Time to kill some innocent level 1 bats and snakes ... |
| 21:35.11 | Elrond | Morgret - I haven't really realised "we" are their partners. But you're right. :) |
| 21:35.54 | Elrond | BTW: We need to be able to do some stuff with the gsm. Things like choosing the provider, when multiple providers are currently allowed for the sim. |
| 21:36.29 | koen | that's just a few at commands |
| 21:36.43 | Elrond | Are they documented? |
| 21:37.49 | *** join/#openmoko z3cka__ (n=z3cka@nv-71-2-213-25.sta.embarqhsd.net) |
| 21:40.54 | Elrond | I wonder, how long it took to convince the ceo. :) |
| 21:42.02 | Morgret | Elrond: in theory we can do all that at th serial interface using modem-like AT commands. Don't think we'll get any info on it for a couple of weeks. |
| 21:42.09 | Morgret | counter |
| 21:42.10 | aloril | 2 weeks 02:17:50 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 5 days for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 2 days for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 21:42.13 | Morgret | :-( |
| 21:43.07 | Morgret | I'm not too interested in the GSM side, you guys handle it. I'll play with GSM and Bluetooth on the peripherals side. |
| 21:43.25 | Elrond | Yeah, same here. |
| 21:43.48 | Morgret | LOL, I mean GPS and Bluetooth. |
| 21:43.59 | loft306 | ha |
| 21:44.24 | Morgret | Too many TLAs atm ffs. |
| 21:45.07 | Elrond | Huh, yeah. gps and bt. :) |
| 21:45.24 | Elrond | I wont even give it my sim for the beginning. ;) |
| 21:45.40 | *** join/#openmoko fghj (n=tkxue@agp.Stanford.EDU) |
| 21:45.54 | fghj | what is openmoko about? I read about it on reddit; but the website says little |
| 21:46.12 | *** join/#openmoko killfill (n=killfill@freebsd.cl) |
| 21:46.13 | Elrond | http://www.openmoko.com/press/ |
| 21:46.18 | killfill | hi |
| 21:46.25 | Elrond | Read the slides. |
| 21:47.01 | killfill | i wanted to buy a nokia n800, and somehow come to openmoko.. :-p where can a see a hw spec that can run this? |
| 21:47.01 | Morgret | fghj: simply a phone with the O/S under community control. The peripherals are under designer control, clear demarkation. |
| 21:47.08 | killfill | (or will).. |
| 21:47.42 | Elrond | killfill - openmoko currently is geared towards the Neo. |
| 21:47.57 | killfill | 1973? |
| 21:47.58 | Morgret | Which means that all the clever stuff we can make as nice and intelligent as wel like, but there will be a few limitations on the basic hardware side. Good tradeoff. |
| 21:48.02 | killfill | cannot find info about it.. :-S |
| 21:48.22 | *** join/#openmoko chrustinho (n=christop@p57B01F70.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 21:48.39 | Elrond | killfill - http://www.openmoko.com/press/ There's a quick hw sketch. |
| 21:49.00 | Morgret | killfill: Yeah, info is a bit sparse. Need to wait two weeks. |
| 21:49.04 | Morgret | counter |
| 21:49.05 | aloril | 2 weeks 02:10:55 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 5 days for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 2 days for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 21:49.09 | CM | killfill: Also, check the topic of this channel |
| 21:51.09 | killfill | heh.. :-p |
| 21:51.11 | killfill | CM: ok |
| 21:51.13 | *** part/#openmoko Mortimus (n=mortimus@pool-71-250-104-223.nwrknj.east.verizon.net) |
| 21:51.56 | CM | killfill: Especially the official announcement :-) |
| 21:54.02 | killfill | oh it uses gtk? |
| 21:54.04 | killfill | cool |
| 21:54.08 | Elrond | Yep. |
| 21:55.12 | killfill | oh, i will be able to conect to inet wia bluetooth |
| 21:56.16 | Elrond | Should we put a mini-webserver on it for easy access from the desktop? |
| 21:57.43 | Morgret | killfill: it uses anything we want, within the host O/S side. That's the beauty of it, it's up to us. |
| 21:57.52 | killfill | a webservice.. so configuration can be made "in batch" :-p |
| 21:58.45 | *** join/#openmoko MetaBookfoziS (n=sajt@dsl51B69EB6.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 21:58.51 | killfill | Morgret: greate! |
| 22:00.17 | Morgret | killfill: very much doubt that "in batch" upgrades will happen, or at least not community-wide, only if you subscribe to a specific group. Because many people would rather be dead than have something forced on them. Very different to a commercial environment. |
| 22:00.23 | Elrond | killfill - I'm currently pondering platform independent ways to communicate with the desktop. |
| 22:01.46 | Elrond | Morgret - hehe, like the snom-phone, which can autoupdate itself. (pulling. ;o) ) |
| 22:02.54 | killfill | Morgret: oh sure.. i was planing in a comercial enviroment.. i.e. to configure all software (on the mobiles) that enables a company to provide its service .. :-) |
| 22:03.01 | killfill | planing/thinking... |
| 22:04.09 | Elrond | Right, all that is possible, if you find a developer to create it for you. :) |
| 22:04.19 | killfill | hehe |
| 22:04.27 | CM | Morgret: This was kind of funny.. http://goodbye-microsoft.com/ |
| 22:04.53 | killfill | what about LiMo? has openmoko something to do with them? |
| 22:05.19 | Elrond | What's limo? |
| 22:05.21 | CM | killfill: No, they have some weird licenses and such |
| 22:05.50 | CM | It's not gpl for sure, more like "free for all other members of our paying club" or something like that |
| 22:06.11 | Morgret | killfill: LiMo are clueless. They actually made it a condition of membership that Linux sources would not be released to non-members under any circumstances. Go figure. That kind of cluelessness takes some beating. |
| 22:06.46 | killfill | wel.. |
| 22:07.41 | Elrond | Huh, that does sound like violating the gpl? |
| 22:07.45 | killfill | thinking that the GPL is a virus.. i thought it was virtually impossible to use linux and not release the modifications they will made non-gpl.. |
| 22:08.09 | MDK | they have DRM |
| 22:08.13 | MDK | it must be good |
| 22:08.15 | CM | Elrond: Their apps don't have to be gpl to run on a gpl os |
| 22:08.16 | MDK | ;) |
| 22:08.17 | Morgret | Elrond: Linux Mobile Foundation ... announced only 2 days ago, clearly in defensive response to FIC's announcement. |
| 22:08.42 | Elrond | Morgret - Ahh. |
| 22:08.56 | CM | They even have a homepage, http://www.limofoundation.org |
| 22:08.58 | Elrond | CM - Okay... but then they can't have drm. ;o) |
| 22:09.08 | Morgret | Elrond: |
| 22:09.14 | Morgret | Jan. 25, 2007 - Six of the world's largest telecom companies launch the Linux Mobile (LiMo) Foundation: Motorola, NEC, NTT DoCoMo, P |
| 22:09.15 | Morgret | anasonic, Samsung, and Vodafone. The LiMo specification will be released under an open source license such as the GPL, but kernel a |
| 22:09.15 | Morgret | nd middleware will be released under the Foundation Public License. The FPL forbids source code distribution to non-members of the |
| 22:09.15 | Morgret | Foundation under any terms. |
| 22:09.33 | Morgret | Funny :P |
| 22:09.37 | MDK | sounds like SCO fun |
| 22:09.50 | MDK | way to go big guys |
| 22:09.53 | Morgret | MDK: hahaha, yes |
| 22:09.54 | nbd | i guess eventually someone will whack them, and whack them hard |
| 22:09.56 | MDK | straight to hell ;) |
| 22:10.27 | CM | That's what happens when PHB's from several companies agree on some clever scheme for making more money.. |
| 22:10.35 | Elrond | For me that sounds like violating the gpl of the linux kernel. What am I missing? |
| 22:10.35 | Morgret | Yep. |
| 22:10.51 | MDK | Elrond: well, they haven't done it yet I guess |
| 22:10.52 | killfill | hey guys.. and the choise of linux was made becouse it has the power to attract very much developers?.. what about *BSDs? |
| 22:10.57 | Morgret | Elrond: you're not missing anything. They're slightly short of a clue though |
| 22:11.13 | CM | killfill: I'm guessing better support under linux |
| 22:11.27 | CM | And more software |
| 22:11.35 | Elrond | So lInus can sue them from the start. ;o) |
| 22:11.41 | killfill | better support for the hw companies? |
| 22:11.45 | killfill | from |
| 22:11.49 | MDK | I'm guessing since linux -- since all the other cool kids do linux |
| 22:12.02 | MDK | err, linux since ... |
| 22:12.31 | MDK | oh crap, I managed to really make this sentence unreadable |
| 22:12.31 | Morgret | kids? Well I'm sure there are some. But for the most part the kids are elsewhere. Old timers here :P |
| 22:12.48 | Elrond | hehe, right. ;) |
| 22:13.00 | MDK | I mean, nokia, fic, novell... |
| 22:13.04 | MDK | you know, they do linux |
| 22:13.12 | MDK | you know, there must be something in it... |
| 22:13.13 | MDK | right? ;) |
| 22:13.26 | Elrond | Yes, it's a big "kid"-thingy. |
| 22:13.43 | killfill | just becouse it has become popular.. so they can make more money.. :-p |
| 22:13.44 | Elrond | But nobody stops you from porting bsd to the neo. :) |
| 22:13.53 | MDK | it's like -- 'if you don't have a clue what to do, just try doing what others do' |
| 22:14.04 | killfill | hehe |
| 22:14.14 | Morgret | Well, I notice that Nokia wasn't among the big 6 of LiMo ... and they already have 770/Maemo. So I'm guessing that Nokia is laughing at LiMo as much as we are. |
| 22:14.25 | *** join/#openmoko pikkewyn (i=xiaowen@sverige.freeshell.ORG) |
| 22:14.26 | Elrond | killfill - port linux to the neo. It should be possible. |
| 22:15.01 | Morgret | Is anyone here on the Maemo foums? |
| 22:15.04 | MDK | limo is mentions gtk btw |
| 22:15.06 | Elrond | CM - *gna* Yes. |
| 22:15.15 | MDK | Morgret: i'm |
| 22:15.36 | Morgret | MDK: have they mentioned LiMo? |
| 22:15.49 | MDK | I guess everybody is just shitting in his pants now and making chaotic movements |
| 22:15.50 | killfill | what do you think about maemo?.. im thinking about buyng a n800 ..:-p |
| 22:16.00 | MDK | since iphone is coming, stuff like that |
| 22:16.08 | MDK | symbian is a piece of crap that has no future |
| 22:16.15 | MDK | you have to do 'something' ;) |
| 22:16.58 | MDK | Morgret: there was an interesting discussion about gpl3 vs. drm stuff vs. gtk |
| 22:17.07 | Morgret | It's a nice device. It's not quite as open as OM, as some more binary stuff, but it's a great platform, and awesome display. |
| 22:17.08 | MDK | on the irc channel though |
| 22:17.56 | MDK | Morgret: we try to be more open and hopefully we'll move in that direction |
| 22:18.10 | MDK | we can't do certain things because of hardware etc. |
| 22:18.24 | killfill | hm.. but.. |
| 22:18.27 | MDK | maemo is a tiny spot on the nokia radar at the moment |
| 22:18.31 | CM | A built in GPS on the N900 would be sweet.. |
| 22:18.33 | killfill | OM, is software.. who does the hw? |
| 22:18.43 | CM | Assuming it will be another maemo device |
| 22:18.48 | SpeedEvil | Anyone - in principle. |
| 22:18.51 | Elrond | killfill - FIC. |
| 22:19.06 | SpeedEvil | First device will be FIC - the neo[0-9][0-9][0-9][0-9] phone. |
| 22:19.13 | SpeedEvil | 1948? |
| 22:19.22 | killfill | CM, if it had a GPS instead of that looser camera they put on it.. i would already have one.. :-p |
| 22:19.27 | MDK | I meant -- the hardware vs. open device drivers |
| 22:19.38 | CM | killfill: Same here, definitely :-) |
| 22:19.42 | Morgret | MDK: yeah, but that''s the same as Neo/OM on the FIC radar, guaranteed. Well, we'll certainly be trying to make the platform great from our side :P |
| 22:19.49 | *** join/#openmoko meus (n=bjartka@kremt.pvv.ntnu.no) |
| 22:20.06 | *** join/#openmoko ssvb (n=user@87.252.225.64) |
| 22:20.33 | Morgret | FIC is to Neo as Nokia is to 770 |
| 22:21.39 | Morgret | killfill: the phone is the FIC Neo1973 running OpenMoko |
| 22:21.54 | killfill | yup got the picture |
| 22:22.27 | killfill | i wonder.. why didnt the guys at LiMo uses OM? |
| 22:22.38 | killfill | they did what the did i guess becouse of nokia.. |
| 22:22.38 | MDK | I'm dying to see how the themes vs. gtk problem was solved in openmoko |
| 22:23.01 | CM | MDK: mickeyl hasn't been so happy with that, afaikt |
| 22:23.04 | Morgret | killfill: Because they're into the old control game. |
| 22:23.19 | CM | s/afaikt/afaict/ |
| 22:23.26 | MDK | CM: can imagine. It's giving us pain too |
| 22:23.58 | killfill | but they are not even started.. nokia are on they way... Limo will need very much efforts.. dont know |
| 22:24.00 | CM | No way to do anything about that? Simplify it somehow? Some kind of themeing layer? |
| 22:24.21 | Morgret | What's the issue there? I'm not a themes demon. |
| 22:24.22 | MDK | CM: well, it's related to how gtk works |
| 22:24.42 | MDK | we basically try to solve it at the build-tools level |
| 22:24.58 | CM | Ah, ok |
| 22:25.34 | MDK | we have tools that automatically do all the crap (generate theme) from templates such as this one: https://stage.maemo.org/svn/maemo/projects/haf/trunk/hildon-theme-plankton-3/template/template.png |
| 22:25.43 | MDK | but it's not perfect |
| 22:25.57 | CM | Ah, still cool |
| 22:26.04 | MDK | adding ANYTHING new requires lot's of talking between designer & coder |
| 22:26.06 | CM | I was thinking about something like that |
| 22:26.17 | CM | True, not exactly flexible |
| 22:26.19 | MDK | since the gtkrc file is a total mystery for the artist |
| 22:28.14 | CM | counter |
| 22:28.14 | aloril | 2 weeks 01:31:46 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 5 days for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 2 days for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 22:28.22 | CM | Two more weeks.. |
| 22:29.09 | Morgret | I think the general problem is that gnome and kde have evolved alongside desktop CPUs ... and poor li'l embedded micros struggle with it. |
| 22:29.28 | killfill | i think ill buy the n800.. :-p |
| 22:30.11 | Morgret | It's a good device |
| 22:30.46 | killfill | i only miss agood video playback.. hope mplay will run there one day.. |
| 22:31.26 | Morgret | No reason why not, our CPU is slow and it runs |
| 22:31.46 | *** join/#openmoko zween (n=zween@80-47-217-202.lond-th.dynamic.dial.as9105.com) |
| 22:32.13 | *** join/#openmoko nikky (n=minus273@orange.mnet.bg) |
| 22:32.39 | SpeedEvil | Do you have a hardware video scaler though. |
| 22:32.39 | Morgret | The 800 is faster than the 770 anyway |
| 22:34.07 | SpeedEvil | IIRC at 640x480*16bit, you have around 12 instructions per pixel if you want 25fps |
| 22:35.07 | Morgret | That's tighter than ... |
| 22:35.11 | SpeedEvil | Maybe double or half, depending on stuff. It's not a whole lot though. |
| 22:39.18 | *** join/#openmoko Virtulis (n=virtuall@who.is.virtuall.info) |
| 22:39.41 | Elrond | 480x640. ;o) |
| 22:39.49 | Elrond | Or is there a rotate-module? ;o) |
| 22:40.02 | marcellus | With a GPS in the N800 I would probably buy it too. |
| 22:41.28 | Elrond | Well, if I get a nearly fully free thingy... I'm pissed by closed source vendors. |
| 22:43.38 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@9.80-202-160.nextgentel.com) |
| 22:43.58 | noidd | counter |
| 22:43.58 | aloril | 2 weeks 01:16:02 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 5 days for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 2 days for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 22:50.47 | *** join/#openmoko danbri (n=chatzill@82-32-5-17.cable.ubr01.azte.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 22:51.55 | *** join/#openmoko Tv (n=tv@cpe-76-173-124-64.socal.res.rr.com) |
| 22:55.53 | ssvb | SpeedEvil: memory speed it important for video playback, it is probably more important than cpu clock speed |
| 22:56.24 | ssvb | SpeedEvil: hardware scaler would help, but its absence is not critical, it is very important to have hardware YUV colorspace support though |
| 22:58.57 | ssvb | Morgret: do you have any preliminary video performance benchmarks? (you are one of OpenMoko developers, right?) |
| 23:00.42 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@9.80-202-160.nextgentel.com) |
| 23:02.45 | ssvb | oops, sorry, I thought you were discussing Neo1973 video playback capabilities, my apologies |
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| 23:04.00 | *** join/#openmoko terrex (n=terrex@84-122-63-17.onocable.ono.com) |
| 23:04.22 | ssvb | killfill: don't worry, n800 has a better video support potential than 770, it will just take a bit of time to optimize mplayer for it :) |
| 23:08.28 | ssvb | By the way, I wonder if Neo1973 will be sold really worldwide and not restricted to just a limited number of countries |
| 23:12.02 | *** join/#openmoko aquarius (n=aquarius@82-47-92-64.cable.ubr04.dudl.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 23:12.38 | Elrond | As long, as germany is in that country list. ;o) |
| 23:16.34 | *** join/#openmoko BryceL (n=root@nj-71-53-31-202.dhcp.embarqhsd.net) |
| 23:17.43 | *** join/#openmoko guerby (n=guerby@gut75-4-82-235-162-148.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 23:17.46 | noidd | anywhere |
| 23:18.11 | noidd | if there isn't a direct distributor you'll be able to get it from .tw |
| 23:18.52 | *** join/#openmoko Clint (n=Clint@thumb.scru.org) |
| 23:18.57 | noidd | that is according to the gospel of Sean. |
| 23:19.08 | Elrond | Ahh. |
| 23:19.31 | Elrond | A distributor in Frankfurt (FFM) would be cool. I could go there and take a look before buying. :) |
| 23:20.41 | noidd | Elrond: Well, I believe there is going o be a distributor in .eu for the development phones even |
| 23:21.22 | Elrond | Yep. I just hesitate to buy one without having it had in my hand before. ;) |
| 23:22.02 | noidd | or at least to see what other people think huh? |
| 23:23.07 | Elrond | That also. But I'm old-fashioned. If I want to use something and like it, have to have it in my hands first. :) |
| 23:27.08 | Elrond | noidd - Example the other way round: The Magellan explorist XL is quite large ( http://www.magellangps.com/products/product.asp?prodID=1141&SEGID=355&tab=4&ajaxlink=1141:productimage ). If I had seen it on the web, I would have said "too large". But I had it in my hands, I liked it. (it's just too expensive, and too closed) |
| 23:39.23 | Elrond | noidd - You got an idea, what I mean? |
| 23:39.27 | *** join/#openmoko _rob (n=rob@AC9E0C41.ipt.aol.com) |
| 23:51.21 | *** join/#openmoko bkuhn (n=bkuhn@fsf/member/bkuhn/bkuhn) |
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| 23:54.27 | hrw|gone | http://www.hrw.one.pl/2007/01/28/congratulations-you-have-won-a-free-neo1973/ |
| 23:54.37 | *** join/#openmoko cying (n=cying@adsl-75-44-20-75.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) |
| 23:55.13 | MetaBookfoziS | what? |
| 23:55.26 | aquarius | hrw|gone: nice. |
| 23:55.44 | MetaBookfoziS | i'm don't understand, what is it? |
| 23:55.53 | meus | hrw|gone: congrats |
| 23:56.28 | MetaBookfoziS | woah, i have that, congrat... (i want one in the same way!!:))) |
| 23:57.14 | MDK | hrw: nice |
| 23:57.36 | hrw | tx |
| 23:57.48 | MDK | hrw: you're from .pl? |
| 23:57.52 | hrw | yes |
| 23:57.56 | hrw | MDK: you too? |
| 23:58.17 | MDK | yeah, now freezing my ass in helsink though |
| 23:58.28 | hrw | MDK: Poznań here |
| 23:58.31 | noidd | Gratz man |
| 23:58.47 | noidd | That's very cool. |
| 23:59.34 | noidd | heh, if the word "Won" was in the email subject and it hit my mailbox it would probably end up in the Junk box |
| 23:59.49 | MDK | hehe |
