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| 00:22.44 | Elrond | counter |
| 00:22.45 | aloril | 2 weeks, 1 day 23:37:15 for source availability and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 6 days for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 3 days for mass market (2007-09-11) |
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| 01:24.29 | Mortimus | whoa the counter works |
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| 01:30.31 | noiddpalm | re |
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| 01:31.15 | noiddpalm | its taking all my self control not to reply to that flame. |
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| 01:32.30 | noiddpalm | wb |
| 01:32.42 | Zer0HiT | thanks, colloquy froze |
| 01:33.30 | noiddpalm | this is actuallu the first time I've used my palm for irc |
| 01:33.41 | Zer0HiT | cool |
| 01:33.42 | noiddpalm | I used my zaurus a thousand times. |
| 01:34.21 | noiddpalm | I'm running sound for a show |
| 01:34.33 | noiddpalm | so I'm ircing between sound cues |
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| 02:51.02 | aloril | counter |
| 02:51.02 | aloril | 2 weeks, 1 day 21:08:58 for source for all and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 6 days for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 3 days for mass market (2007-09-11) |
| 02:56.03 | aloril | counter |
| 02:56.03 | aloril | 2 weeks, 1 day 21:03:56 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 6 days for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 3 days for mass market (2007-09-11) |
| 03:16.23 | *** join/#openmoko wiml (n=wiml@underhill.hhhh.org) |
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| 03:23.54 | Mortimus | down under! |
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| 04:00.35 | aloril | nick count records: 106 2006-12-04; 108 2006-12-07; 109 2006-12-12; 114 2006-12-13; 116 2006-12-20; 134 2007-01-11; 141 2007-01-12; 143 2007-01-13; 157 2007-01-15; 163 2007-01-16 ; 182 2007-01-17; 185 2007-01-19 ; 197 2007-01-20 ; 201 2007-01-21; 205 2007-01-22; 206 2007-01-23; 211 2007-01-25 |
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| 05:43.14 | wiml | So, I guess a few developers have (or are getting?) early pieces of the hardware? How many of those "preview" neo1973s are out there? |
| 05:46.57 | aloril | umm.. only few I guess now, but 50-55 in February |
| 05:46.58 | aloril | counter |
| 05:46.58 | aloril | 2 weeks, 1 day 18:13:01 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 6 days for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 3 days for mass market (2007-09-11) |
| 05:48.10 | wiml | ohhhh, I thought Feb was the mass-market avail date :( |
| 05:52.18 | aloril | yeah, its month later for anybody to buy development version |
| 05:52.46 | aloril | for some details, see topic announce link |
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| 05:58.01 | wiml | well, I guess I'll have to wait until march then |
| 05:58.21 | wiml | it's just as well I guess. I don't have time to start hacking on a new platform right now |
| 06:02.12 | aloril | hmm... DOS of mobile phones, has bad ring to it ;-) but it could make hardware compatible commodity like DOS did |
| 06:05.40 | aloril | marketing: use your mp3's as ringtone, use your images as background, you can install as many free apps as you want |
| 06:08.42 | wiml | well ... I can already do that on my cell phone (as long as th free apps are written in java) |
| 06:10.55 | wiml | the java apps are stuck in their little java sandbox though which really limits how customizable my phone can be. |
| 06:11.49 | aloril | true, you can get that for most phones already, but still many pay ;-) |
| 06:12.17 | wiml | the promise of openmoko to me is being able to adapt the whole device's experience, despite what some marketer at motorola thought should go on the main screen |
| 06:17.14 | aloril | wiml: that is true for me too not anything in that marketing line ;-) (well.. libre applications of course) |
| 06:17.49 | aloril | wiml: basically, I consider this mobile computer myself and mobile phone secondly |
| 06:20.37 | wiml | yes, I am kind of hoping the neo1973 might finally have reached a point where a pda+phone can be a good handheld computer and a good phone |
| 06:21.07 | wiml | most of the problems with existing pda+phones seem to be in their software, not the hardware, which is capable enough these days |
| 06:24.12 | aloril | compared to what Linux ran initially, this has plenty of power (though of course compared to current hardware its slow) |
| 06:24.33 | aloril | and this has unpowered USB host too, so lots of possibilities there too |
| 06:26.05 | *** join/#openmoko rejo1 (n=rejon@c-24-23-175-209.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 06:27.23 | aloril | (386 20Mhz 4MiB RAM vs ARM9 266Mhz 128MiB RAM) |
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| 06:59.16 | aloril | from mailing list "I recently discovered OpenMoko while researching the Apple iphone." |
| 06:59.19 | aloril | good marketing ;-) |
| 07:00.37 | anselm | i'd seen it earlier; forgotten about it; was annoyed by iphone; and came across it in an article again. |
| 07:10.53 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=rob_w@p549B9A55.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
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| 08:50.12 | TomWork | lo |
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| 09:00.32 | aloril | maybe they were brought from /. |
| 09:02.29 | aloril | also maybe people might be more polite if they kept in mind that Google indexes mailing list (and I think this channel too) |
| 09:06.24 | XorA | morning |
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| 09:09.22 | aloril | XorA: morning, anything new? |
| 09:09.56 | XorA | aloril: not yet |
| 09:13.29 | XorA | counter |
| 09:13.29 | aloril | 2 weeks, 1 day 14:46:30 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 6 days for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 3 days for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
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| 10:04.10 | Morgret | counter |
| 10:04.11 | aloril | 2 weeks, 1 day 13:55:49 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 6 days for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 3 days for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 10:04.34 | Morgret | I could swear the counter's clock is running slow |
| 10:07.33 | *** join/#openmoko vlo (n=valentin@lsa1pc7.epfl.ch) |
| 10:08.32 | aloril | hehe |
| 10:08.42 | ynezz | underclocked |
| 10:09.23 | Morgret | Let's de-underclock it ;-) |
| 10:10.51 | XorA | overclock mickey|zzZZzz so he can deliver early :-) |
| 10:13.15 | *** join/#openmoko martinh (i=martinh@80.187.208.109) |
| 10:13.15 | Morgret | Yep. Overclock him and keep his running temperature cool with plenty of iced mountain dew and a bevy of nymphets waving fans. |
| 10:13.31 | LittleIdiot | i could send schokakola ;) |
| 10:13.43 | LittleIdiot | (choclate with high caffeine dosis) |
| 10:14.02 | Morgret | Hehe, like a double mocha |
| 10:18.15 | *** join/#openmoko tr2x (n=alvar@80-218-185-55.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 10:20.54 | rwhitby | Morgret: deunderclock - nice in joke :-) |
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| 10:30.38 | *** part/#openmoko Stepan (n=Stepan@khepri.openbios.org) |
| 10:37.46 | Morgret | rwhitby: "de-underclock" is a standard term in the OpenSlug world. The NSLU2 ran at 133MHz from the factory using an undocumented setting, despite the chip being spec'd at 266MHz, so it was underclocked by Linksys. Slug owners normally de-underclock theirs. :P |
| 10:39.35 | Morgret | Mine is still underclocked: |
| 10:39.41 | Morgret | Processor : XScale-IXP42x Family rev 1 (v5b) |
| 10:39.41 | Morgret | BogoMIPS : 132.71 |
| 10:40.47 | CM | Morgret: Do you know who rwhitby is? ;) |
| 10:41.22 | Morgret | CM: nope. But on the Internet, everyone is a dog, obviously :-) |
| 10:41.31 | CM | Morgret: http://www.rwhitby.net/projects/nslu2-linux/ |
| 10:41.47 | Morgret | Oh, hehe. Nice to meet you :P |
| 10:42.23 | CM | I have to admit I didn't understand the "in joke" bit, so thank you for explaining for me at least :) |
| 10:42.49 | Morgret | :-) |
| 10:44.48 | Morgret | CM: Newer slugs come from the factory running at 266MHz, btw. |
| 10:45.25 | CM | I'd like to buy one and try MokoSlug on it. Not sure where I can get one in sweden though.. |
| 10:45.54 | *** join/#openmoko srikantux (n=sri@59.92.161.18) |
| 10:45.59 | Morgret | Mail order ;-) |
| 10:46.48 | Morgret | http://www.komplett.se/k/search.asp?q=NSLU2 |
| 10:47.32 | CM | *lol* Their office is in the same house as my companys office.. |
| 10:47.52 | CM | I'll go 2 floors down an get it ;) |
| 10:48.00 | Morgret | Hahaha, funny |
| 10:48.14 | CM | Hmm.. I looked at several swedish, but didn't find it.. Weird |
| 10:48.34 | *** join/#openmoko Rac0r (n=Rac0r@p54AA4B62.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 10:54.31 | Morgret | You don't need a slug with Bluetooth to network the Neo though. Any old Bluetooth access point ought to work. I assume that that includes the cheap D-Link. |
| 10:59.50 | *** join/#openmoko frostschutz (n=frostsch@p54AC6AFD.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 11:00.09 | Psi_ | Morgret, i'd get a BT V2 EDR access point tho :) ya want as much range/speed as you can get :) |
| 11:03.13 | Morgret | Oh, the D-Link isn't EDR? Well spotted, I hadn't looked |
| 11:03.15 | *** join/#openmoko valfrom (n=valfrom@195.128.182.22) |
| 11:03.36 | Psi_ | i hadn't looked either |
| 11:04.04 | mjr | not like bt v1 speeds won't be enough for most things you're able to do with the neo :) |
| 11:04.45 | Psi_ | with a proper BT V2 EDR access point i think you could use it like wifi around the home |
| 11:04.57 | mjr | well, true, there's the coverage thing |
| 11:05.10 | mjr | I think I'll be mostly happy if it reaches the couch though ;) |
| 11:05.13 | Morgret | True enough. The gap between mobile CPU speeds and desktop speeds seems to be widening rapidly. Some people will be disappointed. |
| 11:05.35 | valfrom | hi all |
| 11:05.40 | valfrom | anybody know what form factor this phone? |
| 11:05.56 | mjr | http://www.openmoko.com/press/index.html |
| 11:06.41 | valfrom | thanks! sorry :( |
| 11:07.25 | SpeedEvil | The insane amount of power drawn by desktop CPUs is a large portion of it. |
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| 11:07.52 | SpeedEvil | What's the max power of the one in the neo? 0.5W? |
| 11:08.25 | Psi_ | lol, wifi is only 0.1W |
| 11:08.34 | Psi_ | i very much doubt the BT is 0.5W |
| 11:08.34 | SpeedEvil | Take a 3Ghz CPU, and divide by 120th of the power, and you get 25Mhz. |
| 11:08.44 | SpeedEvil | CPU, not wifi. |
| 11:08.48 | Psi_ | oh, sorry |
| 11:10.10 | SpeedEvil | (which admittedly will be closer to 75Mhz or so counting all the execution units prolly. |
| 11:11.48 | Morgret | The Samsung S3C2410 datasheet says 177mW idle to 335mW "typical normal" at 226MHz. But there's a lot more in the phone than just the CPU. |
| 11:12.08 | SpeedEvil | True - that was just the CPU power above though. |
| 11:12.29 | SpeedEvil | It's sort-of-comparable mips/watt with desktop. |
| 11:12.31 | Morgret | s/226/266/ |
| 11:12.47 | Morgret | LOL, I beat you to the correction |
| 11:13.30 | *** join/#openmoko srikantux (n=sri@59.92.185.175) |
| 11:13.34 | SpeedEvil | On the up-side, you could use the phone exhaust for de-icing locks. |
| 11:13.42 | Morgret | lol |
| 11:13.44 | *** join/#openmoko ValiSystM (n=ValiSyst@81.56.207.165) |
| 11:14.05 | mjr | :D |
| 11:14.52 | Morgret | Given that the current interglacial period is about to end and dropping back down into 80,000 years of glaciation means -13 degs C fall ... that will make hot gadgets useful. :P |
| 11:17.16 | Morgret | Doubling CO2 only gives us a 2-3 degs C rise at most. Everyone please spew out at least x8 as much CO2 ... I don't like the cold!!! ;-) |
| 11:18.02 | mjr | ooo... dizzy |
| 11:19.03 | SpeedEvil | Any figures for current use of the phone idle, with the screen active? I'd like to read ebooks on it. |
| 11:19.05 | Morgret | Ooooh ... maybe future phone should run on fossil fuels, so that they are environmentally friendly by keeping the planet liveably warm ;-) |
| 11:19.10 | XorA | I live in scotland, warm gadgets always welcome |
| 11:19.16 | Morgret | Hehe |
| 11:19.29 | SpeedEvil | Near Glenrothes. |
| 11:19.57 | Morgret | Single malt area |
| 11:20.00 | XorA | Work in Edin, live in West Lothian |
| 11:20.13 | XorA | SpeedEvil: do you go to edlug? |
| 11:20.18 | SpeedEvil | No. |
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| 11:20.41 | SpeedEvil | WAve. |
| 11:23.31 | greentux | hi guys |
| 11:23.56 | Morgret | lo |
| 11:31.03 | rwhitby | Morgret: nice to meet you too |
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| 11:31.57 | rwhitby | Psi_: I use a Linksys USBBT100 and get a good 10 meters radius coverage of the house. |
| 11:32.29 | Psi_ | 10meters outside of the house? |
| 11:32.35 | rwhitby | inside the house |
| 11:33.03 | Psi_ | hm.. i suppose in the center of the house 10M would probably be enough |
| 11:33.06 | rwhitby | (i.e. I put in centrally in the house, and it reaches the back door and the front door) |
| 11:33.15 | Psi_ | yeah |
| 11:33.32 | rwhitby | this is with a Treo650 as the handset |
| 11:33.45 | Psi_ | is it V2 EDR/ |
| 11:33.46 | Psi_ | ? |
| 11:33.56 | XorA | rwhitby: does bluetooth in that mode make a good wifi replacement? |
| 11:34.23 | XorA | rwhitby: I am interested to experiment as my wifi screws up my digital video broadcasters |
| 11:34.43 | rwhitby | XorA: it works for me. I have the same setup at work, but with a cheaper usb dongle and it doesn't reach as far. |
| 11:35.13 | rwhitby | I sync mail, download IRC logs, sometimes IRC, sometimes ssh. |
| 11:35.33 | rwhitby | Psi_: Treo is only BT V1 |
| 11:36.43 | rwhitby | XorA: so I don't really do anything that requires significant throughput. It's all for offline processing (i.e. reading and respoding to mails on the bus). GPRS here is 2c/Kb (yes Kb, not Mb). |
| 11:36.58 | mjr | rwhitby, that's insane |
| 11:37.31 | XorA | rwhitby: I am lucky to have flat rate gprs |
| 11:37.57 | rwhitby | no such thing in Australia as far as I know (or at least in my price range) |
| 11:38.52 | rwhitby | So I will be the one on the community development team making sure that everything can be done in offline mode and then synced automatically to multiple bluetooth adapters :-) |
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| 11:44.32 | *** join/#openmoko p3n (n=p3n@dxb-as12183.alshamil.net.ae) |
| 11:45.56 | Morgret | Do you mean channel bonding a few for more throughput? Only 7 participants in a Bluetooth piconet, so that limits the bonding to triple if two participants. |
| 11:47.07 | rwhitby | no, I mean seamless roaming across multiple spatially-separated bluetooth access points. |
| 11:47.19 | Morgret | Aha. God, that's useful |
| 11:47.26 | Morgret | s/God/Good/ :P |
| 11:48.13 | rwhitby | Of course, I have no proof that such a thing can be done yet. But what I can do manually on the Treo (by selecting different connection profiles) must be able to be done automatically on the Neo. |
| 11:49.32 | Morgret | It should be possible, since unlikely to need more than 7 simultaneously visible nodes. |
| 11:50.13 | Morgret | Hehe, cellular mobile over Bt piconets. Not heard that suggested before. |
| 11:54.56 | hrw|work | rwhitby: you will be able to change profiles based on geo location |
| 11:55.50 | rwhitby | hrw|work: yep - thats for the home vs work scenario. I also need to work out how to have two bluetooth adapters inside the house to get better coverage. |
| 11:56.08 | rwhitby | (i.e. out into the back yard, or into the front driveway) |
| 11:56.27 | hrw|work | I will need to buy something nslu2-like to get BTAP in home |
| 11:57.25 | *** join/#openmoko leventhal (n=null@damnit.imaddicted.ca) |
| 11:58.30 | Morgret | rwhitby: I've been playing a bit with bluez Bluetooth code interfacing with GPS and a barcode scanner. Your MokoSlug sounds very interesting, I'll be wanting to check that out. |
| 11:58.46 | mickeyl | morning |
| 11:59.00 | Morgret | Hi mickeyl :P |
| 11:59.11 | rwhitby | Morgret: if you can build Angstrom in OE today, I can supply a mokoslug.conf which will build it for you. |
| 11:59.16 | *** join/#openmoko florian_ (n=fuchs@217.146.132.69) |
| 11:59.18 | Morgret | We've been discussing how to overclock you ;-) |
| 11:59.30 | mickeyl | quick poll. openmoko-devel mailing list now or in february? |
| 11:59.35 | mickeyl | vote now :) |
| 11:59.36 | hrw|work | hi mickeyl |
| 11:59.37 | hrw|work | now |
| 11:59.42 | hrw|work | now! now!! |
| 11:59.48 | mickeyl | only vote once :) |
| 11:59.51 | rwhitby | hey mickeyl. who's Marcus Bauer and why does he hate you ;-) NOW! |
| 11:59.55 | ynezz | november |
| 12:00.22 | mickeyl | rwhitby: i have no idea. was really surprised to see such a heated response. As if it was me personally taking away a phone from him *shrug* |
| 12:00.23 | Morgret | OMG, it's universal. OK, I vote for Q4 2009 then :P |
| 12:00.27 | *** join/#openmoko dilinger (n=dilinger@c-65-96-191-108.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 12:01.04 | mickeyl | Morgret: I'm afraid if you overclock me I will burnout :D |
| 12:01.35 | Morgret | Nah, we cool you with iced mountain dew and lots of nymphets waving fans |
| 12:02.16 | TRIsoft | mickeyl: We vote for February :-) |
| 12:02.22 | rwhitby | mickeyl: your advice on Wordpress actually kicked me into action on starting a blog. |
| 12:02.38 | mickeyl | rwhitby: cool. did you see you already made it into planet.openmoko.org? |
| 12:02.39 | ROB1963 | developer mailing list please not before february |
| 12:02.57 | SpeedEvil | 2006? |
| 12:03.05 | rwhitby | mickeyl: "Rod", not "Rob" (on planet.om.org) |
| 12:03.07 | mickeyl | so that'd be 2:2 |
| 12:03.24 | Morgret | rwhitby: haven't looked at Angstrom. I'll grab it, as my slug needs an update anyway. |
| 12:03.28 | mickeyl | rwhitby: oops, sorry, will forward |
| 12:03.35 | friedel | anything to discuss yet on a dev list? |
| 12:03.38 | rwhitby | mickeyl: thx - it's a common mistake. |
| 12:04.14 | *** join/#openmoko meandtheshell (n=markus@85-124-206-169.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at) |
| 12:04.24 | rwhitby | Morgret: it's not user-ready yet. i.e. it doesn't have pivot-root functionality yet, so you can only fit stuff in the internal flash |
| 12:04.47 | Morgret | Did you guys see the nutty news from the telecomms companies yesterday? |
| 12:04.57 | Morgret | "Jan. 25, 2007 - Six of the world's largest telecom companies launch the Linux Mobile (LiMo) Foundation: Motorola, NEC, NTT DoCoMo, Panasonic, Samsung, and Vodafone. The LiMo specification will be released under an open source license such as the GPL, but kernel and middleware will be released under the Foundation Public License. The FPL forbids source code distribution to non-members of the Foundation under any terms. |
| 12:04.57 | Morgret | " |
| 12:05.11 | mickeyl | ya, well, YAMLC |
| 12:05.23 | mickeyl | ibot: YAMLC is yet another Mobile Linux consortium |
| 12:05.26 | mickeyl | apt: YAMLC is yet another Mobile Linux consortium |
| 12:05.32 | apt | mickeyl: okay |
| 12:05.39 | rwhitby | mickeyl: might want to change the sidebar url to http://www.rwhitby.net/blog/category/openmoko/ so it goes straight to the moko blog too. |
| 12:05.41 | Morgret | I guess they don't really get the idea of open source. |
| 12:06.09 | mickeyl | rwhitby: there are two links. the name corresponds to your site, the rss image corresponds to the openmoko category |
| 12:06.31 | robtaylor | what a bunch of tossers |
| 12:06.34 | mickeyl | (easy to miss, i know... might ping the designer to make it a bit more ovbious) |
| 12:07.05 | stefan_schmidt | mickeyl: Vote: February. Reasons: Not that much to discuss about real code. I fear this list will be also flamed atm. |
| 12:07.07 | rwhitby | mickeyl: stefan's name links to his moko blog archive, not his home page |
| 12:07.18 | hrw|work | rwhitby: http://www.rwhitby.net/blog/category/openmoko/feed/ |
| 12:07.39 | stefan_schmidt | morning all, btw |
| 12:07.46 | hrw|work | rwhitby: your blog looks like copy of mine ;D |
| 12:07.49 | mickeyl | rwhitby: righto. i'll keep that in mind |
| 12:07.49 | rwhitby | hrw|work: yes, that's the feed, but the name should link to the moko category archive. |
| 12:07.56 | rwhitby | hrw|work: same theme |
| 12:08.12 | Morgret | Make at least two lists please, user and dev. And make the dev one have a clear charter of TECHNICAL ISSUES ONLY. |
| 12:08.13 | mickeyl | it's a bit inconsistent. some links point to the openmoko category, some to the main page |
| 12:09.03 | rwhitby | mickeyl: I'd prefer linking directly to openmoko, in case I move blogs from the main page to a subdir. I also think people following that link will want to go straight to the openmoko stuff. |
| 12:09.40 | mickeyl | rwhitby: ok, i'm not in charge of the planet, but I'll mention that |
| 12:09.46 | rwhitby | mickeyl: thx |
| 12:10.02 | mickeyl | you see my thinking was that |
| 12:10.12 | mickeyl | a) signal/noise ration on community is way bad for devels at this point |
| 12:10.26 | mickeyl | b) you can already talk about Gtk+, about UI technology, about OE, aux APIs and stuff |
| 12:10.29 | mickeyl | even without the device |
| 12:10.33 | mickeyl | but i'm undecided yet |
| 12:10.40 | hrw|work | I got mail about winning lottery. but not phone lottery but uk spam.. |
| 12:10.48 | mickeyl | hrw|work: heh |
| 12:11.17 | rwhitby | mickeyl: since I come from the NAS/router OE usage background, I'd love a devel list right now which talked about all that stuff. |
| 12:11.37 | hrw|work | mickeyl: I think that community ML reached point when we need to have devel list or some people will drop project |
| 12:11.37 | stefan_schmidt | mickeyl: The question is if you core devs have time to deal with coding questions atm. |
| 12:11.55 | mickeyl | stefan_schmidt: we don't, that's true. |
| 12:12.03 | hrw|work | stefan_schmidt: some people on devel list will be able to answer some of questions |
| 12:12.26 | stefan_schmidt | hrw|work: Fair enough. Perhaps it is worth a try. |
| 12:12.29 | Morgret | But non-core experts will be able to deal with most of the issues, as long as they are up-to-scratch with it. |
| 12:12.50 | stefan_schmidt | OK, guys you win. I vote for devel list now. :) |
| 12:12.53 | mickeyl | hehe |
| 12:12.57 | rwhitby | how about we create the list with the clear expectation that answers from openmoko staff cannot be expected before the developer release. |
| 12:13.03 | stefan_schmidt | BUt I like to see you all helping out there. :) |
| 12:13.11 | LaF0rge | rwhitby: the links are taken from the rss |
| 12:13.20 | mickeyl | cheers LaF0rge |
| 12:13.29 | Morgret | Need both ML and active wiki though --- the wiki holds info that gets lost in a high-volume ML |
| 12:13.33 | LaF0rge | rwhitby: so if your rss feed for the openmoko category links to the main blog, then we link to that |
| 12:13.46 | LaF0rge | rwhitby: so it's up to you to change that, AFAICT |
| 12:14.37 | rwhitby | LaF0rge: ok, thanks. I'll look into it. |
| 12:14.52 | mickeyl | ok, guys. then please note https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/openmoko-devel -- i'm going to announce on the community list tomorrow |
| 12:14.58 | rwhitby | (I guess it doesn't get my name from the RSS though ;-) |
| 12:15.17 | Morgret | rwhitby: item 1 for ML agenda will be putting FAQs in a FAQ then, or it'll be a headache. |
| 12:15.30 | LaF0rge | rwhitby: we feed the plane with "realname, RSS feed url" tuples, the rest is from the RSS |
| 12:15.54 | LaF0rge | rwhitby: your openmoko feed has <channel><link>http://www.rwhitby.net</link> |
| 12:15.59 | mickeyl | LaF0rge: i just sent a mail regarding s/Rob Whitby/Rod Whitby' |
| 12:16.40 | rwhitby | LaF0rge: thx - that explains why all the wordpress ones link to the site main page instead of the feed category archive |
| 12:17.08 | LaF0rge | mickey: sean already fixed it |
| 12:17.24 | mickeyl | wow, that was quick |
| 12:17.33 | rwhitby | LaF0rge: please pass on my thanks to Sean. |
| 12:19.50 | XorA | does that mean we all have to drive XXXX |
| 12:19.56 | XorA | s/drive/drink/ |
| 12:20.18 | hrw|work | <PROTECTED> |
| 12:20.18 | rwhitby | XorA: I grew up in Queensland, and went to Uni not far from the XXXX brewery. |
| 12:20.29 | *** join/#openmoko meyerm (n=meyerm@p54985AEF.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 12:20.37 | hrw|work | XXXX is australian beer vendor? |
| 12:20.50 | XorA | hrw|work: Castlemaine 4X or something like that |
| 12:21.04 | rwhitby | http://www.xxxx.com.au/ |
| 12:22.16 | rwhitby | XorA: but now I live in Adelaide, and the local beer is Coopers Ale (http://www.coopers.com.au/) |
| 12:22.17 | Agrajag- | xxxx is horrible stuff |
| 12:22.54 | XorA | s/ale/ale man/ |
| 12:23.02 | rwhitby | Coopers is much better than XXXX. |
| 12:23.19 | Agrajag- | boags premium is the best! |
| 12:23.27 | Agrajag- | (besides my homebrew) |
| 12:23.47 | loufoque | if you're a real ale man you should drink european beer |
| 12:24.08 | XorA | loufoque: being in europe I do |
| 12:24.09 | rwhitby | Agrajag-: happy oz day. |
| 12:24.13 | Agrajag- | ;) |
| 12:24.31 | rwhitby | any other aussies here? |
| 12:24.58 | Morgret | Beer is environmentally unfriendly, uses too much water. Drink wine!!! ;-) |
| 12:25.21 | XorA | Morgret: dont you mean whiskey |
| 12:25.44 | Morgret | XorA: oh good point, 40 proof is even more environmentally friendly :P |
| 12:26.00 | XorA | although I live in scotland and hate Scotch :-) |
| 12:26.22 | rwhitby | Morgret: South Australia has the world's best wine too ... ;-) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barossa_Valley) |
| 12:26.23 | SpeedEvil | What about the real national drink, Iron Bru |
| 12:26.26 | SpeedEvil | ? |
| 12:26.47 | loufoque | belgian, german, austrian and czech beers are supposed to be the best |
| 12:27.04 | rwhitby | See, that's what's missing from the community mailing list. Discussion about beer. That's why it's so hostile. |
| 12:28.09 | Morgret | rwhitby: yep, I'm drinking a Shiraz Mataro from Sth East Australia right now, and it's nice. |
| 12:28.09 | XorA | OpenMoko should come with a beer token :-) |
| 12:28.10 | hrw|work | rwhitby: start proper thread? |
| 12:28.34 | mickeyl | :) |
| 12:28.39 | Morgret | What was the issue? |
| 12:29.55 | XorA | we gonna need to do 10mins in a boxing ring with mickeyl at FOSDEM :-) |
| 12:30.05 | rwhitby | Morgret: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/002315.html |
| 12:30.24 | Morgret | Tnx |
| 12:30.51 | rwhitby | Unbelievably rude and uncalled for. |
| 12:31.26 | Morgret | Jeez |
| 12:31.54 | rwhitby | It seems that some people think that OpenMoko "owe" them an open source phone revolution, instead of being grateful that OpenMoko is the only one willing to even go into that area. |
| 12:32.09 | Morgret | The attack was totally uncalled for. He could have made his point about release dates and SVN without any of that abuse. |
| 12:32.16 | CM | Wow, he must have had a really bad day or something |
| 12:32.57 | robtaylor | and afact, what he wants to happen is pretty much what's happening. weirdo |
| 12:33.18 | XorA | anyone complaining about the release dates obviously needs to get a real job with real problems |
| 12:33.41 | SpeedEvil | Or start developing software, so that it's ready earlier. |
| 12:33.42 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 12:33.49 | XorA | rwhitby: kOEn |
| 12:33.58 | rwhitby | XorA: 'zacly |
| 12:34.32 | Morgret | Well it's just a matter of abuse. Uncomfortable questions are fine, nobody wants fanboys. But personal abuse is not fine. And anyone sensible can see the difference. |
| 12:34.38 | XorA | now will this fscking DMA work this time |
| 12:35.23 | CM | rwhitby: Does the nslu2 work well with usb2-hubs? |
| 12:35.29 | rwhitby | Morgret: yes, the community needs to make sure that people realise that that sort of behaviour is just unacceptable. |
| 12:36.17 | rwhitby | CM: yep, if you're running real firmware (not the Linksys/SerComm stuff) |
| 12:36.18 | Morgret | Hehe, "real" firmware |
| 12:36.35 | rwhitby | MoKoSlug is just a cut-down version of Angstrom. |
| 12:36.42 | CM | I mean, 2 usb ports is a bit tight |
| 12:36.58 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (i=foobar@dslb-084-057-129-010.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 12:37.05 | rwhitby | CM: one for disk, one for BT dongle. |
| 12:38.25 | CM | Guess that's all I need actually.. And I already have both |
| 12:38.51 | rwhitby | it will be interesting to see what synergies are gained by having the MokoSlug server and the Neo phone being build from essentially the same source base (including all the same Linux non-gui applications) |
| 12:39.03 | rwhitby | s/build/built/ |
| 12:39.53 | rwhitby | at least you won't need to learn two different networking config script syntaxes. |
| 12:40.17 | hrw|work | one for storage (hdd, pendrive), second for BT2 dongle, third for my multifunction device (printer/scanner) |
| 12:40.53 | CM | hrw|work: True, printer sharing would be nice too |
| 12:40.59 | rwhitby | amarsh04: same here. |
| 12:41.00 | *** join/#openmoko srikantux (n=sri@59.92.185.175) |
| 12:41.13 | amarsh04 | rwhitby, I gather that you would know Peter Ballard from Austek and Geoffrey Bennett from Motorola or LinuxSA? |
| 12:41.24 | rwhitby | amarsh04: yep |
| 12:41.38 | *** join/#openmoko ValiSystM (n=ValiSyst@lns-bzn-50f-81-56-207-165.adsl.proxad.net) |
| 12:42.05 | rwhitby | I hope to show off a Neo at the March LinuxSA meeting, The Great Moko God willing ;-) |
| 12:42.16 | amarsh04 | excellent, whitby |
| 12:44.20 | amarsh04 | I'm way below either of those two in technical/academic capability |
| 12:45.02 | hrw|work | mickeyl: phase0/1 phones will get send directly from Taiwan? |
| 12:46.22 | Morgret | Hopefully there will be a few depots around the world, or else the shipping costs for individual orders will be dreadful. |
| 12:46.56 | mickeyl | hrw|work: 0 yes, 1 i don't know |
| 12:47.41 | mickeyl | they have a world-wide shipping infrastructure, so it won't be too bad |
| 12:47.57 | Morgret | Ah yeah, big company |
| 12:48.13 | hrw|work | mickeyl: 22% VAT for customs if package from outside of UE... |
| 12:48.27 | XorA | you need only same the words OpenMoko backwards three times into a mirror then look over your shoulder |
| 12:48.28 | amarsh04 | even getting a phone in .au, one time I had to go to Adelaide Airport and sign for it there |
| 12:49.05 | rwhitby | amarsh04: anything under $1000 doesn't attract GST on imports I think. |
| 12:49.19 | amarsh04 | getting an OpenMoko from .tw wouldn't be worse than that |
| 12:49.32 | amarsh04 | that sounds promising, rwhitby |
| 12:50.15 | Morgret | I wish one could pre-pay duty. Having packages detained at customs is just annoying. |
| 12:51.30 | XorA | Morgret: you can, but couriers dont like you doing it, it means they cant charge their "handling" ripoff fees |
| 12:51.39 | Morgret | :-( |
| 12:52.56 | rwhitby | amarsh04: http://www.customs.gov.au/site/page.cfm?u=5549 |
| 12:53.19 | rwhitby | under AUD$1000 is duty and tax free. |
| 12:53.41 | *** join/#openmoko tr2x (n=alvar@80-218-185-55.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 12:53.53 | amarsh04 | Thanks: " All goods (except for tobacco products and alcoholic beverages) may be imported duty and tax free if their value is $1,000 or less." |
| 12:54.16 | rwhitby | That might even cover the cost of a Neo v2 ;-) |
| 12:56.26 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@24.crcr10.xdsl.nauticom.net) |
| 13:01.07 | *** join/#openmoko z3cka (n=z3cka@nv-71-2-213-25.sta.embarqhsd.net) |
| 13:03.33 | Morgret | LOL, more ammo for copyright/DRM debates: "When your incremental cost for making another copy is zero, what makes you think that your incremental profit should be non-zero?" |
| 13:07.17 | *** join/#openmoko srikantux (n=sri@59.92.185.175) |
| 13:08.47 | nnpiggy | Morgret, do you subscribe to public radio? |
| 13:11.08 | Morgret | nnpiggy: nope, why? |
| 13:11.21 | *** join/#openmoko srikantux (n=sri@59.92.185.175) |
| 13:11.53 | nnpiggy | The incremental cost for adding a single listener to public radio is zero. Yet thousands of people pay for it voluntarily. |
| 13:13.02 | nnpiggy | The public radio networks on the other hand, charge the local affiliates by the estimated size of their listening audience. Is this an unfair practice? |
| 13:14.19 | Morgret | Too many factors mixed up in that to discuss it simply. The radio stations are independent operators for a start. If they were the music labels directly, then perhaps it could be discussed. |
| 13:15.05 | Morgret | Want to discuss it on a different channel? It might be possible to discuss rationally, but it would be long and be off-topic here. |
| 13:18.32 | amarsh04 | how feasible is an audio recording capability for openmoko? |
| 13:18.46 | amarsh04 | e.g. to the micro SD card? |
| 13:19.03 | Morgret | amarsh04: check out Peercast if you haven't already, it lets anyone "broadcast" since it's P2P, and quite a few bands are outputting their own stuff out on it. |
| 13:20.08 | plaes | wtf is peercast? |
| 13:20.19 | SpeedEvil | An interesting "p2p" app would be local discovery of the person with the cheapest connection to the internet locally, then use their phone - for a fee paid to them. |
| 13:20.19 | Morgret | Google("Peercast") |
| 13:20.25 | plaes | "peer" == "fart" in my language :P |
| 13:21.19 | Morgret | http://www.peercast.org/info.php |
| 13:21.54 | plaes | is cool, but sounds bad :D |
| 13:22.28 | SpeedEvil | Why bad? |
| 13:22.33 | SpeedEvil | Oh - you mean quality. |
| 13:23.12 | plaes | no.. the translation.. :P |
| 13:23.16 | SpeedEvil | Ah. |
| 13:23.17 | amarsh04 | thanks, Morget ... |
| 13:23.19 | Morgret | Well, "Moko" sounds like "moco" which is a nasal effluent in Spanish ... so really the name doesn't matter :P |
| 13:25.00 | Morgret | Peercast should actually work fine over the Neo's Bluetooth |
| 13:26.40 | robtaylor | hell, it sounds like its soemthing to do with java in english |
| 13:26.55 | Morgret | Yeah :P |
| 13:27.23 | Morgret | Starbuck's mocha is DRM'd ... |
| 13:27.34 | amarsh04 | I'd like the second hardware release for openmoko to start to overlap with the capabilities of products like those from www.maycom.nl |
| 13:29.00 | *** join/#openmoko z3cka (n=z3cka@nv-71-2-213-25.sta.embarqhsd.net) |
| 13:29.44 | Morgret | Even Neo#1 will do most of that, with an external microphone if you want quality. |
| 13:30.04 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@9.80-202-160.nextgentel.com) |
| 13:30.13 | *** join/#openmoko MetaBookfoziS (n=sajt@3e44bf24.adsl.enternet.hu) |
| 13:34.36 | Morgret | The main problem with Neo#1 in this area is likely to be the unpowered USB, since you won't be able to use a USB microphone for example unless you also carry a battery-powered hub with you. |
| 13:34.36 | mickeyl | hmm parcel man |
| 13:35.13 | Morgret | Santa Claus was late ... :P |
| 13:35.29 | mickeyl | OpenPCD.org RFID reader |
| 13:35.35 | mickeyl | Neo1973 battery prototype |
| 13:35.40 | mickeyl | Mini Jtag USB interface |
| 13:35.42 | mickeyl | nice |
| 13:35.42 | rwhitby | mickeyl: gold, frankensense, myrrh ? |
| 13:35.45 | mickeyl | heh |
| 13:35.46 | mickeyl | not quite |
| 13:35.56 | Morgret | Gratz :-) |
| 13:36.00 | TRIsoft | Sounds like fun for the weekend ;-) |
| 13:36.09 | mickeyl | yeah :) |
| 13:36.33 | TRIsoft | And a battery prototype without a Neo is kinda strange humor :D |
| 13:36.39 | mickeyl | hehe |
| 13:36.53 | mickeyl | it gets even better... the battery prototype has a 3.5 headphone plug attached |
| 13:37.03 | Morgret | Look on the positive side: the charge will last longer ;-) |
| 13:37.10 | mickeyl | LaF0rge prepared that for me :) |
| 13:37.42 | mickeyl | the new audio subsystem... listen to the accumulator waves |
| 13:37.42 | mickeyl | heh |
| 13:38.03 | TRIsoft | Thought it's for speech output about remaining capacity ? |
| 13:38.22 | TRIsoft | *low voice* "Charge me, charge me" :D |
| 13:38.29 | Morgret | That'll be very deep bass sound coming out of the battery ... DC. |
| 13:39.34 | XorA | mickeyl: that prototype got a case? |
| 13:40.12 | mickeyl | XorA: It's just the battery prototype (i.e. a real battery with a headphone plug) |
| 13:40.19 | mickeyl | not the actual Neo case |
| 13:40.28 | mickeyl | LaF0rge is the only one in EU having a case prototype |
| 13:40.29 | mickeyl | *envy* |
| 13:40.46 | XorA | mickeyl: so only he gets the pounding techno goodness :-) |
| 13:41.06 | XorA | you'll have to kick a box instead |
| 13:41.16 | mickeyl | XorA: indeed. then again... knowing him, it's probably rather indian pop |
| 13:41.37 | *** join/#openmoko buz (n=buz@80-218-148-33.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 13:41.53 | mickeyl | XorA: how's the quality over headphones? |
| 13:42.13 | XorA | sounds good, but there is board noise |
| 13:43.22 | mickeyl | rwhitby: most prototypes were modified to use a headphone plug as AC plug. the battery now attaches to that plug |
| 13:43.44 | rwhitby | mickeyl: ah, that makes sense now. |
| 13:44.11 | XorA | with no case, youd have nowhere to put battery anyway |
| 13:44.14 | mickeyl | that was done for poor software-only guys without lab equipment |
| 13:44.28 | mickeyl | like me |
| 13:44.57 | stefan_schmidt | mickeyl: It's even more funny that you can flash some phones over heaphone jack. |
| 13:45.00 | hrw|work | mickeyl: they should send you one good AC power supply |
| 13:45.04 | amarsh04 | is the audio jack input/output or output only? |
| 13:46.31 | mickeyl | stefan_schmidt: it's scary, honestly. |
| 13:46.38 | mickeyl | hrw|work: indeed |
| 13:46.50 | mickeyl | hrw|work: i have a couple of multiAC's now thanks to this project |
| 13:49.30 | hrw|work | mickeyl: thats good |
| 13:50.39 | Morgret | Does anyone have experience of X11 running over Bluetooth? I was just wondering whether the poor li'l Samsung might actually be faster in thin client mode, when at home with a Bt PAN around it. |
| 13:51.50 | *** join/#openmoko ValiSystM_ (n=ValiSyst@lns-bzn-50f-81-56-207-165.adsl.proxad.net) |
| 13:52.28 | *** join/#openmoko MetaBookfoziS (n=sajt@3e44bf24.adsl.enternet.hu) |
| 13:53.06 | *** join/#openmoko TeringTuby (n=maarten@189-66-dsl.ipact.nl) |
| 13:53.32 | *** join/#openmoko ValiSystM (n=ValiSyst@lns-bzn-50f-81-56-207-165.adsl.proxad.net) |
| 13:53.47 | SpeedEvil | I've run X11 over 10base2 |
| 13:53.53 | SpeedEvil | It's not actually bad. |
| 13:54.19 | mjr | it's okay indeed |
| 13:54.19 | SpeedEvil | With protocol compression, at small window sizes it's not bad. |
| 13:54.35 | mjr | I'd guess so too |
| 13:55.07 | mjr | X has bigger problems with latency than slow throughput, and in this case that wouldn't be a problem |
| 13:55.34 | SpeedEvil | google dxpc - differential X protocol compressor - I found it worked well for me last time I used it. |
| 13:55.45 | mjr | well, ssh -C does pretty good too |
| 13:55.48 | SpeedEvil | (with a P100 target) |
| 13:56.04 | SpeedEvil | ssh -C has the not insignificant extra load of encryption. |
| 13:56.13 | SpeedEvil | And it does not understand the X protocol. |
| 13:56.28 | mjr | mmh, true, in this case the encryption might be a heavy load |
| 13:56.43 | SpeedEvil | dxpc does semi-smart things with the protocol, more than just compression. |
| 13:56.48 | mjr | and no it doesn't but in practice it does reduce throughput needs quite nicely |
| 13:56.50 | mjr | I know |
| 13:57.29 | SpeedEvil | I was being silly, and trying to play video over 10base2 link. Worked not horribly actually. |
| 13:58.08 | mjr | (I'd feel better encrypting my X over bluetooth with ssh though, still...) |
| 13:58.33 | Morgret | Bt is *much* slower than 10base2, in practice. You don't get the theoretical 723Kbps (non-EDR) ever in practice, not even close. In fact, you don't usually even operate it in a mode where that's possible. |
| 13:58.34 | SpeedEvil | True - but dxpc, then encrypt that. |
| 13:58.57 | SpeedEvil | Yes, I know, but I was mainly trying to use it for stuff like full motion video. |
| 13:59.08 | hrw|work | EDR has (theory) 2.1Mbps real transfer |
| 13:59.36 | mjr | Morgret, and 480x640 is still a pretty small window. |
| 13:59.49 | SpeedEvil | Is it 24 bit? |
| 13:59.56 | hrw|work | 5 |
| 14:00.06 | SpeedEvil | 5 bit? |
| 14:00.06 | hrw|work | SpeedEvil: 16 bit |
| 14:00.09 | mjr | I don't think you want to be running animated games or video over X11/bluetooth, but less demanding apps, sure |
| 14:00.11 | SpeedEvil | Ah. |
| 14:00.21 | *** join/#openmoko z3cka_ (n=z3cka@nv-71-2-213-25.sta.embarqhsd.net) |
| 14:02.03 | *** join/#openmoko florian (n=fuchs@217.146.132.69) |
| 14:02.39 | Morgret | Well the micro won't cope with any heavy lifting, which is why "thin client" came to mind, when in "at home" mode. I think I'll check it out at some point. We might even be able to make the MokoSlug help out there, reducing the workload further. |
| 14:04.06 | Morgret | Not relevant to normal operation with a roaming mobile, just curious. |
| 14:06.51 | Morgret | Could make the Neo image under xoo be the fast virtual phone when at home, and the hardware Neo just reflecting it as a thin client, if it's turned on. |
| 14:09.03 | Morgret | The possibilities of an open platform are just enormous :-) |
| 14:09.18 | *** join/#openmoko z3cka_ (n=z3cka@nv-71-2-213-25.sta.embarqhsd.net) |
| 14:10.36 | SpeedEvil | Even uncompressed - turning my wifi down to 1mbit, firefox at 640*300*24 bit is not unusable native over X. |
| 14:11.20 | Morgret | Nice data point, cheers |
| 14:13.08 | rwhitby | night all |
| 14:14.08 | Morgret | NN rwhitby |
| 14:14.10 | hrw|work | n8 Rod |
| 14:15.36 | Morgret | Gigabit junkie here ... I think I'm the only one of my friends who doesn't have wifi ... "too slow" ;-) |
| 14:20.03 | leventhal | I was that way until I dismantled the fileserver and stuffed all the drives into my desktop |
| 14:29.10 | *** join/#openmoko z3cka__ (n=z3cka@nv-71-2-213-25.sta.embarqhsd.net) |
| 14:30.26 | *** join/#openmoko pike_ (i=pike@server1.freeshells.ch) |
| 14:36.41 | *** join/#openmoko srikantux (n=sri@59.92.185.175) |
| 14:42.03 | *** part/#openmoko danbri (n=chatzill@82-32-5-17.cable.ubr01.azte.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 14:45.44 | Morgret | I don't like desktops, I have no fans or disks or anything else that can be heard, can hear a pin drop and the birds tweet outside. All connected by Cat5 KVM extenders to remote computer room. |
| 14:46.06 | XorA | yabadabadooooooooooo |
| 14:46.24 | Morgret | Shhhhhh ... birds are tweeting ;-) |
| 14:47.47 | *** join/#openmoko disguy__ (i=ariel@gateway/tor/x-db960f75c4048245) |
| 14:49.24 | *** join/#openmoko prpplague (n=dave@12.190.41.146) |
| 14:49.25 | stefan_schmidt | XorA: congrats |
| 14:49.26 | mickeyl | ~praise XorA |
| 14:49.47 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 14:49.59 | XorA | no mic though :-( |
| 14:51.07 | CM | Sound recording without a mic is impressive |
| 14:52.00 | SpeedEvil | Many electronic components are microphonic to some degree. |
| 14:52.43 | CM | *nod* Guess any kind of analogue input should work |
| 14:52.53 | Sketch | headphones can make a pretty good mic in a pinch... |
| 14:53.30 | SpeedEvil | Or any speaker. |
| 14:54.41 | *** join/#openmoko z3cka_ (n=z3cka@nv-71-2-213-25.sta.embarqhsd.net) |
| 14:54.42 | Morgret | lol, I'll have to use that line about microphonic components in hardware forums, I think they'll appreciate it ;-) |
| 14:55.23 | XorA | Morgret: its quite common for caps on a board to work as either speakers or mics |
| 14:55.34 | SpeedEvil | And inductors. |
| 14:55.43 | SpeedEvil | That's why power supplies make noise even with no fans. |
| 14:56.31 | Morgret | XorA: yeah, it was a normal way of checking there's life in a preamp to flick the caps. before it all became digital :P |
| 14:57.10 | l3010o | SpeedEvil: are they the electric noises? |
| 15:05.07 | noidd | nah, just lick the large capacitors in the AC PSU |
| 15:05.18 | *** join/#openmoko z3cka_ (n=z3cka@nv-71-2-213-25.sta.embarqhsd.net) |
| 15:05.30 | noidd | I keep being tempted to have a rare earth magnet implanted in my hand |
| 15:05.47 | leventhal | Me too |
| 15:05.48 | noidd | some electricians are having the operation done so they can *feel* if a line is live. |
| 15:05.53 | leventhal | And a keyloq rfid when they get smaller |
| 15:06.11 | noidd | just wave your hand over a cable and you can feel the AC |
| 15:06.55 | noidd | I have a project question. At which point during this year should we suggest hardware specs for V2 |
| 15:07.20 | leventhal | i can't answer that as well as i can answer where to find a bodymod expert willing to put a magnet in your hand |
| 15:07.25 | noidd | I don't want to hit the list now since we're busy flaming mickeyl and rationally discussing Linux vs GNU/Linus :-P |
| 15:07.47 | noidd | a local tatoo / piercing place will do it. |
| 15:08.03 | leventhal | yeah. not all of them have implant specialists though. |
| 15:08.17 | noidd | local surgeon maybe |
| 15:08.35 | noidd | I would have to only change hard drives with one hand :-P |
| 15:08.56 | leventhal | hah.. somehow i don't think it will be strong enough to damage the data. |
| 15:09.34 | leventhal | i also imagine those induction charging mousepads might make you go crazy if the magnet is in your mousing hand |
| 15:11.07 | *** join/#openmoko disguy__ (i=ariel@gateway/tor/x-dabe3f8d9fd4686e) |
| 15:13.01 | Morgret | Talking about induction, it was one of the things we mentioned yesterday, induction-based cellphone charger, like elec toothbrushes. |
| 15:14.23 | xorAxAx | yes |
| 15:14.50 | noidd | Morg: that has to interfere with the redio signals around |
| 15:15.29 | noidd | so it may not be feasable - worth a shot tho |
| 15:15.38 | Morgret | 50-60Hz ... not too many things broadcast on that band ;-))) |
| 15:16.34 | SpeedEvil | There are people who have managed to get patents on that. |
| 15:16.46 | SpeedEvil | And it's a few hundred Khz, not Hz |
| 15:16.57 | Morgret | Radio National Power Grid ... I've never liked their music selection, personally ;-) |
| 15:17.19 | *** join/#openmoko incinerator (n=sabine@82-41-24-164.cable.ubr04.edin.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 15:18.11 | SpeedEvil | Also, unless they are properly designed, large magnetic fields can kill electronics. I lost a LCD backlight to a small fridge magnet on the shelf behind it once. |
| 15:18.50 | noidd | higher frequency == more efficient power tranfer |
| 15:19.01 | noidd | think harmonics |
| 15:19.23 | SpeedEvil | With small sized stuff, yes. |
| 15:19.33 | Morgret | Think sine waves without harmonics ;-) |
| 15:19.56 | noidd | doesn't exist :-) |
| 15:20.18 | Morgret | Nothing is perfect, but your harmonic levels can be waaaay down in dB |
| 15:20.33 | SpeedEvil | It is technically impossible though. |
| 15:20.43 | SpeedEvil | Zero harmonics implies that the tone has been going on for ever. |
| 15:20.48 | SpeedEvil | And the universe is only so old. |
| 15:21.08 | noidd | I never thought of it like that |
| 15:21.10 | noidd | hmmm |
| 15:21.24 | Morgret | Hehehe ... that's an irrefutable argument. Fortunately, it's not of any consequece IRL :P |
| 15:23.18 | xorAxAx | SpeedEvil: incorrect |
| 15:23.27 | xorAxAx | SpeedEvil: you are confusing amplitude and frequence |
| 15:23.35 | SpeedEvil | Nope. |
| 15:23.36 | xorAxAx | y |
| 15:23.50 | xorAxAx | SpeedEvil: you can lower the amplitude without introducing harmonics |
| 15:23.52 | SpeedEvil | If you have a step change in amplitude from 0 to 1, then it causes harmonics. |
| 15:24.07 | xorAxAx | nobody is talking about steps :) |
| 15:24.11 | SpeedEvil | No, you can't. |
| 15:24.18 | Morgret | No no, Speed's right. Over infinite time, a finite sine wave of constant amplitude is indistinguishable from a pulse. |
| 15:24.45 | SpeedEvil | If you subtract a constant from the amplitude of the sine going from 100% to 50%, it goes to 0% |
| 15:24.56 | SpeedEvil | A constant sine wave. |
| 15:25.15 | xorAxAx | ? |
| 15:25.25 | noidd | This reminds me of my phrase of the week |
| 15:25.30 | xorAxAx | Morgret: thats irrelevant |
| 15:25.37 | SpeedEvil | A non-constant sine wave is modulated. |
| 15:25.45 | Morgret | But although he's right *technically*, it means nothing of course. In practice we can make perfectly good sine-like waves with very low harmonic content. |
| 15:25.49 | SpeedEvil | Modulated sine waves by definition have harmonics. |
| 15:25.54 | xorAxAx | SpeedEvil: of course you modulate it, but assume a very low frequency for the amplitude modulation |
| 15:25.59 | noidd | whcih I have now forgotten. damn. |
| 15:26.15 | SpeedEvil | Very low frequency just means very low amplitude harmonics - they are still there. |
| 15:26.24 | xorAxAx | thats irrelevant |
| 15:26.35 | l3010o | low freq= low amplitude harmonics?? |
| 15:26.36 | xorAxAx | you wont be able to measure them :) |
| 15:27.08 | SpeedEvil | If you modulate a sine wave you create harmonics, you have to, or it would be an unchanging sine wave. |
| 15:27.18 | SpeedEvil | It's just the way the maths falls out. |
| 15:27.28 | Morgret | See guys, this is what happens to an OpenMoko channel when it has no code to hack :P |
| 15:27.51 | noidd | Sorry guys, I insist you call the the GnuSineWave |
| 15:28.02 | Morgret | rofl |
| 15:28.05 | l3010o | it's the acoustic channel hehee |
| 15:28.06 | noidd | every time you use the term, otherwise you're not giving propper credit. |
| 15:29.45 | *** join/#openmoko z3cka_ (n=z3cka@nv-71-2-213-25.sta.embarqhsd.net) |
| 15:29.47 | leventhal | Wow.. godaddy pulled seclists.org. Glad I didn't reg anything with godaddy. |
| 15:31.51 | Morgret | I guess they're acting in accordance with their initial 3 letters. |
| 15:32.42 | l3010o | leventhal, i dont get it :( |
| 15:32.51 | leventhal | For her part, GoDaddy general counsel Christine Jones defended the abrupt deletion, saying: "We tried to contact the registrant, but they were not available at the time. ... |
| 15:32.54 | leventhal | But Vaskovich provided CNET News.com with a log of correspondence from GoDaddy that corroborates his version of the story. It indicated that only 52 seconds elapsed from an initial voice mail notification to the time the domain was marked as "suspended." |
| 15:33.35 | leventhal | So.. you operate a mailing list archive. You don't read the quarter million pages of data to realize someone posted a password list. GoDaddy tries to call you and gives you 52 seconds to respond to a voicemail. |
| 15:34.17 | l3010o | any links of articles? |
| 15:34.30 | leventhal | http://news.com.com/2100-1025_3-6153607.html?part=rss&tag=2547-1_3-0-5&subj=news |
| 15:34.36 | MetaBookfoziS | what gonna be the default browser on neo? |
| 15:34.40 | leventhal | forgot to link that this channel.. oops, heh |
| 15:34.46 | *** join/#openmoko esden_ (n=esden@repl.esden.net) |
| 15:35.12 | l3010o | leventhal, thx |
| 15:35.20 | leventhal | np |
| 15:36.34 | Morgret | The problem goes a lot deeper than this little event though. A domain registrar has no business cutting off access under ANY circumstances whatsoever. It should not even be possible. |
| 15:38.00 | l3010o | it's terrible... |
| 15:38.01 | leventhal | yeah.. it's one thing to delete records on their dns server. but fyodor ran his own dns server, they killed the domain. |
| 15:38.14 | leventhal | it's understandable if there was a court order but there wasn't |
| 15:41.04 | l3010o | so..if somebody posts a list of pwd on myspace, myspace should also be deleted :) |
| 15:41.16 | Morgret | :-) |
| 15:41.46 | Morgret | I'm sure that's occurred to someone already, and they're just preparing the list of passwords :P |
| 15:42.03 | *** part/#openmoko srikantux (n=sri@59.92.185.175) |
| 15:43.03 | Morgret | While they're at it, they should post a list of Godaddy password on the Godaddy support forum ... and then Godaddy will of course have to delist itself. |
| 15:44.42 | XorA | you'll find the Lawyer at myspace is in the old boys network with the one at godaddy, why bother doing things right when your mate can just delete the data |
| 15:46.55 | Morgret | This begs the question of why the Internet isn't resilient to domain name tampering by registrars. Having a domain name registered with a single registrar is a single point of failure by design. |
| 15:49.18 | leventhal | Because the US government wants to be able to kill isonews and bong e-shops |
| 15:49.37 | buz | like either of them couldnt exist under foreign domains |
| 15:50.13 | Morgret | Don't think the US government controls the IETF. This is actually *our* failure, as techs. |
| 15:50.57 | buz | and the iana is just corrupt |
| 15:51.05 | buz | whomever pays the most they'll listen to |
| 15:51.58 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=bob@p85.212.129.30.tisdip.tiscali.de) |
| 15:53.18 | Morgret | Re "pay" ... I agree, although the coin isnt entirely money. It's a matter of power and influence and, most importantly, peer-group allegiances. |
| 15:53.57 | buz | yeah payment isnt always just money |
| 15:55.19 | noidd | You are all too cynical. You should learn to love your masters. |
| 15:55.30 | noidd | ironic you should say that |
| 15:55.37 | noidd | I just registered 6 domains with GoDaddy |
| 15:55.42 | noidd | then came back to this page :-P |
| 15:55.50 | leventhal | heh |
| 15:56.03 | leventhal | any vanity domains? |
| 15:56.05 | buz | most of mine are with godaddy too |
| 15:56.14 | noidd | define Vanity |
| 15:56.22 | leventhal | mine are with 10dollar.ca .. I'm a big spender. |
| 15:56.22 | Morgret | And this is one of the things that gives OpenMoko extremely powerful possibilities. It can undermine a hell of a lot of establishment crap. If it becomes successful, expect a huge amount of FUD and worse coming our way. |
| 15:56.29 | buz | most registrars are shite, so i go to the cheapest one |
| 15:56.42 | leventhal | noidd: something that would be fun to irc with |
| 15:57.06 | Morgret | Is there a registrar running on Sealand? |
| 15:57.17 | buz | oh please |
| 15:57.26 | buz | sealand is about the most ridiculous thing there is |
| 15:57.40 | Morgret | buz: reason? |
| 15:57.54 | buz | it can exist until the british cut fibre |
| 15:58.16 | noidd | I just registered domains that I can run my openmoko feeds from |
| 15:58.23 | Morgret | buz: aha, so it's a powerless state --- can there possibly be a better property in a state?????? |
| 15:58.23 | leventhal | ahh |
| 15:58.34 | noidd | something a little more appropriate than unixfu.com or criticalintegration.com |
| 15:58.43 | leventhal | noidd: yeah i'm abusing an ipv6 tunnel just to irc from fun hostnames |
| 15:58.46 | buz | if the state cant defend your property, the property is worthless |
| 15:58.53 | leventhal | my favourite is rtfm.google-it.info |
| 15:59.04 | leventhal | but i don't feel that evil today |
| 15:59.26 | Morgret | buz: you must be joking. If you rely on your state for your property, you enjoy wishful thinking |
| 16:00.04 | buz | property is basically an abstract concept that relies on legal and social rules to exist |
| 16:00.29 | Morgret | buz: a registrar based in a powerless but independent state would have no government able to influence it. And it wouldn't need to be in bed with the MySpaces of this world |
| 16:01.00 | buz | not his own goverment, but everything else in the world |
| 16:01.29 | buz | if no one's gonna punish you for blowing up sealand... |
| 16:01.30 | noidd | I would love to run ipv6 |
| 16:01.38 | noidd | but none of my ISPs support it afaik |
| 16:01.59 | noidd | believe me, I can defend my property |
| 16:02.04 | buz | (now i'm the last to trust the government, but there is a few things that cant very well be solved without it) |
| 16:02.07 | Morgret | buz: almost nobody else in the world except the Brits have any power over Sealand, since they're not going to enter Brit-disputed territorial waters to blow up Sealand |
| 16:02.11 | noidd | I have a fully loaded 9mm strapped to my side as we speak |
| 16:02.25 | buz | so sealand essentially is over the rule of the brits |
| 16:02.38 | buz | s/over/under/ |
| 16:02.47 | *** join/#openmoko leventhal (n=null@rtfm.google-it.info) |
| 16:02.51 | leventhal | okay, there we go. |
| 16:02.55 | noidd | nice |
| 16:03.02 | buz | lol |
| 16:03.21 | Morgret | buz: nope, they don't touch it because it would be bad PR. There would have to be *extreme* direct provocation to do so. And MySpace certainly could not achieve it. |
| 16:03.25 | leventhal | it was that or das.komputery.name .. |
| 16:03.43 | leventhal | i tread a fine line between fun and dns pollution |
| 16:03.55 | buz | if sealand started hosting truly illegal stuff count on it disappearing over night |
| 16:04.08 | leventhal | :: join #bitchx :: desane (desane@if.I.were.a.perl.script.would.you.love.fork.ing.me.uk) |
| 16:04.11 | leventhal | :: mode #bitchx :: (+b *!*@*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*) by pheret |
| 16:04.13 | leventhal | :: kick #bitchx :: pheret kicked desane (banned: If you match this, you have a lame host.) |
| 16:04.23 | Morgret | buz: I'm talking about registrars. Hosting, sure, that's a provocation |
| 16:04.54 | buz | i wouldnt bet on the bureaucrats in london (or anywhere else really) knowing the difference |
| 16:05.19 | leventhal | well.. i'm not sure it's that big of an issue yet |
| 16:05.39 | leventhal | this wasn't a government thing, this was godaddy buckling under myspace |
| 16:05.50 | buz | well THATs just ridiculous |
| 16:05.53 | buz | and quite likely illegal |
| 16:05.58 | leventhal | although the US gov has ordered a few domains to be suspended |
| 16:06.08 | noidd | someoine registered mokoloco.com |
| 16:06.10 | noidd | :-P |
| 16:06.47 | leventhal | buz: yeah, i don't think keeping a domain listed qualifies as a service.. i can see godaddy being within their rights to lock him out of his web front end and allow him to transfer registrars, but delisting his domain was wrong |
| 16:06.59 | leventhal | it'd be interesting to see if it ever went to court but it won't |
| 16:07.04 | leventhal | unless EFF picks it up |
| 16:07.16 | SpeedEvil | Not to mention extra-state actors. Get assorted terrorists annoyed at you, and they come along with a large torpedo. |
| 16:07.29 | Morgret | openloco is prolly a rail enthusiast's site ... :P |
| 16:08.27 | *** join/#openmoko rwthw (n=hjg@p54BC8AC0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 16:08.31 | SpeedEvil | Spanish Transport Tycoon looks like. |
| 16:09.14 | ROB1963 | will opentt run on the neo? rofl |
| 16:09.35 | noidd | mailing list alert |
| 16:09.40 | noidd | its about to get flammey again |
| 16:09.41 | noidd | "And once a developer puts a price on an application, should you 'share' |
| 16:09.41 | noidd | or 'unauthorise copy' an application then you are a pirate. |
| 16:09.41 | noidd | Unless of course you don't mind me coming over and 'sharing' your |
| 16:09.42 | noidd | refrigerator. |
| 16:09.43 | noidd | " |
| 16:09.56 | Morgret | The really sad thing about all this is ... the allegedly existing darknets are immune to all this political crap. |
| 16:10.28 | mjr | noidd, yeah, *sigh* |
| 16:10.45 | SpeedEvil | IMO, paid apps are good for the platform. |
| 16:11.11 | SpeedEvil | There is always the opportunity for someone to clone a free one if they object strongly enough. |
| 16:11.30 | noidd | I kind of lean towards them being neutral |
| 16:11.57 | SpeedEvil | Any app that is good, that causes someone to buy an openmoko phone is good. |
| 16:11.59 | noidd | the statement that we should not allow the user to install proprietary software is sheer hypocrasy |
| 16:12.05 | SpeedEvil | It gets the platform out there. |
| 16:12.15 | Morgret | noidd: the price placed by a developer on an application replicated at zero cost is of course a virtual price, so you should of course pay the developer in virtual money. |
| 16:12.24 | noidd | Giving your user freedom includes giving them the freedom to make dumb descisions. |
| 16:12.30 | xorAxAx | noidd: it is GNU/proprietary software!!111one |
| 16:12.32 | xorAxAx | :) |
| 16:12.55 | noidd | Morg: We've argued this point for the last 12 years. We're not going to come to an agreement today ;-d |
| 16:13.02 | noidd | haha |
| 16:13.08 | Morgret | We could try :P |
| 16:13.24 | noidd | queston: anyone know where xkr47's scanning countown page is? |
| 16:14.02 | noidd | My software. If I choose to give it away (like I do with 99.9% of software I write) I'll do that. |
| 16:14.07 | noidd | Others I'll sell per copy |
| 16:14.17 | noidd | anotherpiece of software I sold *per execution* |
| 16:14.44 | noidd | they paid me USD 6000 every time they executed it. |
| 16:15.17 | noidd | and the customer was ecstatic about it. |
| 16:15.50 | SpeedEvil | The user should always get to choose if they are willing to pay for stuff from developers. |
| 16:16.07 | SpeedEvil | IMO, there is a big argument for this even for 'free' stuff. |
| 16:16.13 | SpeedEvil | A 'donate' menu. |
| 16:16.20 | SpeedEvil | Though where this goes is problematic. |
| 16:16.48 | SpeedEvil | Err - willing to pay for suff forom developers who want to sell it. |
| 16:16.51 | mjr | yeah, I just suggested on-list that there should be a standard place for donation links to go to |
| 16:18.26 | noidd | the problem with standard place is that equates to monopoly. |
| 16:18.35 | noidd | standard mechanism perhaps. |
| 16:18.41 | SpeedEvil | That's the problem about where it goes. |
| 16:18.46 | mjr | you're out of it |
| 16:18.48 | Morgret | I agree entirely. When the producer and the consumer agree on a value point for a property, there is no issue. The issue only arises when there is a fundamental disagreement, as exhibited by the alleged 100 (?) million people in the US who disagree and vote with their feet. |
| 16:19.20 | SpeedEvil | I think the number is higher. |
| 16:19.25 | SpeedEvil | 'home taping is killing music' |
| 16:19.32 | Morgret | yeah, seem to remember it was 200m |
| 16:19.51 | noidd | Well, they should all be prosecuted. |
| 16:20.07 | noidd | Just because you break contract in millions, doesn't mean the contract is null. |
| 16:20.10 | Morgret | Well, you can't have 200m people being "criminals" (yeah, I know it's civil) in a country ... it means that the labelling/law is wrong. |
| 16:20.23 | mjr | noidd, copyright isn't a contract, by the way |
| 16:20.32 | noidd | it means that the producer needs to re-examine their current contracts and find something more appealing. |
| 16:21.24 | noidd | WHen you buy a piece of software you agree to terms of use. Part of those terms of use is that you do not allow people to make copies. |
| 16:21.34 | Morgret | noidd: sure. But when the producer is not willing to do so, then you have an area of dispute. And that's where the world is now, in dispute. Meanwhile, there are not rightts and wrongs. There is simply dispute. |
| 16:21.49 | noidd | Actually - you could argue that the only person who is breaking the contract is the person who originally bought it and allowed the copies to be made. |
| 16:21.58 | noidd | actually - I would support that interpretation. |
| 16:22.01 | mjr | noidd, yes, and I was just about to argue that |
| 16:22.21 | noidd | Morg: then people need to not buy those products and enter into those contracts. |
| 16:22.39 | noidd | I thought we gave up just taking things without consequences in kindergarden :-) |
| 16:23.30 | SpeedEvil | http://www.baen.com/ is an interesting datapoint. They distribute (mainly SF) books without encryption. They also have a 'free library' section - with selected books available free. Without exception, those authors with books available free other book sales went up. |
| 16:23.54 | leventhal | yeah I'm a fan of baen |
| 16:26.07 | noidd | > Ah, so companies have no rights and deserve no protections under the law? |
| 16:26.07 | noidd | > Morg - you're starting to sound like a marxist (Russ) |
| 16:28.22 | *** join/#openmoko TimRiker (n=timr@216.49.181.128) |
| 16:28.22 | l3010o | hi guyz, how can i get started from openembedded? |
| 16:28.24 | l3010o | i can connect to the site now |
| 16:28.36 | XorA | wooooo, before the nazis come up, can we go back to beer discussions |
| 16:28.37 | l3010o | openmoko is built by bitbake? |
| 16:30.19 | l3010o | XorA, wt's 'nazis'? |
| 16:30.47 | *** join/#openmoko parag0n_ (n=parag0n@popeshoe.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 16:31.13 | noidd | yes, bitbake |
| 16:31.30 | noidd | you can find instructions on how to create the build environment on the oe website under Getting Started |
| 16:32.10 | l3010o | so i should know OE first? |
| 16:39.35 | noidd | it would help |
| 16:40.10 | noidd | I'm not saying one method is superior to any other - I'm not expressing any opinion on that matter |
| 16:40.25 | noidd | I'm just says that people should be able to set whatever terms they want |
| 16:40.39 | *** join/#openmoko SuN (i=unices@ip5652ade4.speed.planet.nl) |
| 16:40.55 | noidd | and people who say they won't honor those terms because its immoral (or some such other bullshit) should not enter into the agreement at all as opposed to violating it. |
| 16:41.02 | noidd | doing so is *rube* |
| 16:41.06 | noidd | *ruDe* |
| 16:41.48 | mjr | you sound a bit like rms, though not exactly :] |
| 16:42.13 | *** join/#openmoko jtoy_ (n=jtoy@mail.backchannelmedia.com) |
| 16:42.18 | noidd | that should probably worry me. |
| 16:42.57 | noidd | If you believe that "software should be free" then stick to free software. DOn't "free" software that the creators did not want to be free. |
| 16:43.07 | noidd | here endeth todays soapbox. I need some food ;-D |
| 16:43.15 | mjr | (he just thinks violating the agreement would be the lesser evil, but best not to enter into them in the first place) |
| 16:44.33 | noiddGRUB | just don't get me started on fair use ;-D |
| 16:45.23 | *** join/#openmoko cpn (n=root@71-222-216-83.albq.qwest.net) |
| 16:46.58 | alphaone | Wow, I missed it. |
| 16:47.19 | alphaone | I missed the argument and I didn't even have popcorn. Damn |
| 16:50.00 | mjr | poor you |
| 16:50.14 | mjr | but hey, there's a potential flamefest starting on the list |
| 16:57.46 | *** join/#openmoko johnny67 (n=johnny67@nvg1-01.yvr.sxip.com) |
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| 17:05.05 | *** join/#openmoko TimRiker (n=timr@pdpc/supporter/bronze/TimRiker) |
| 17:05.32 | *** join/#openmoko PirateHead (n=piratehe@AC859CD9.ipt.aol.com) |
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| 17:10.11 | Morgret | [16:40] <l3010o> XorA, wt's 'nazis'? |
| 17:10.25 | *** join/#openmoko MeTa (n=sajt@53d834ca.adsl.enternet.hu) |
| 17:10.50 | Morgret | I think that was a reference to debates first referring to Marxists, and then to Nazis, and at that point terminating by Godwin's Law :P |
| 17:13.31 | *** join/#openmoko bkuhn (n=bkuhn@fsf/member/bkuhn/bkuhn) |
| 17:13.47 | Morgret | mjr: flamefest still going on? |
| 17:14.29 | *** join/#openmoko bkuhn (n=bkuhn@thurgood-marshall.sflc.info) |
| 17:14.42 | *** join/#openmoko Tv (n=tv@cpe-76-173-124-64.socal.res.rr.com) |
| 17:15.18 | buz | posting drivel to the mailinglist is piracy, cause it clogs the tubes you know |
| 17:22.50 | *** join/#openmoko koen|gprs (n=koen@212.41.157.237) |
| 17:27.52 | *** join/#openmoko disguy__147 (i=ariel@gateway/tor/x-33a049012432f71d) |
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| 17:34.24 | PirateHead | Why are we arguing about marxists and nazis in #openmoko? |
| 17:34.48 | PirateHead | Should we relegate that flame war to ##marxism and ##nazism, respectively? =P |
| 17:38.49 | skome | PirateHead: amen |
| 17:39.12 | Morgret | Oh, it'll get worse. Code monkeys without code to monkey will argue, It's a Law of Nature!!! :P |
| 17:39.30 | marcellus | Godwin's Law doesn't terminate anything it just says that the probability of a comparison to Hitler or Nazis approaches 1 as the discussion grows longer. |
| 17:40.14 | Morgret | marcellus: lol, the meta-arguments about Godwins Law are typically even longer than the arguments to which they refer :P: |
| 17:40.44 | marcellus | Frankly that would be far more entertaining than all this GNU/Linux, freedom, WiFi threads. |
| 17:41.14 | Morgret | That's why I'm not reading the ML, marcellus :-( |
| 17:41.21 | Morgret | I just want code. / Nothing else matters |
| 17:41.36 | *** join/#openmoko eikonos (n=eikonos@S0106001310d36705.gv.shawcable.net) |
| 17:41.43 | hrw | I also want phone ;D |
| 17:41.55 | Morgret | Oh, and the phone too :P Hahaha |
| 17:45.35 | Elrond | I want the gps. ;o) |
| 17:46.17 | marcellus | I wanted a PDA with WiFi and a GPS, but alas. |
| 17:46.35 | PirateHead | I'm going to need to get some sort of WiFi-to-GPS dongle |
| 17:46.43 | PirateHead | erm |
| 17:46.50 | PirateHead | -to-bluetooth |
| 17:47.54 | Elrond | marcellus - I don't care too much for wifi. I have no wifi I'm caring for. |
| 17:48.50 | marcellus | Think of much could have been accomplished prior to the release if all the time spent on futile discussions of what should have been included had been used for designing applications. |
| 17:48.55 | b_lindeijer | Wiifi? |
| 17:50.30 | *** join/#openmoko greentux (n=lemke@195.227.105.180) |
| 17:50.44 | b_lindeijer | I don't care much for wifi either. Consumes much more power and usually BlueTooth or GPRS will suit fine I think. |
| 17:51.32 | mjr | for me that's happily the case |
| 17:52.14 | hrw | I need to create BT AP at home |
| 17:53.28 | Elrond | As long, as the usb connection works nicely. :) |
| 17:55.24 | hrw | I do not like usbnetworking |
| 17:56.16 | Elrond | Why? Except it's probably not very efficient? |
| 17:56.18 | SpeedEvil | It was known that wifi would be nice. It diddn't seem to be possible for the first version. |
| 17:56.45 | *** join/#openmoko dot1 (n=christia@log77-4-82-246-228-78.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 17:56.54 | mjr | well, usbnet is probably faster than bt, but this kind of device doesn't want to be tied down |
| 17:56.59 | dot1 | hello |
| 17:57.59 | hrw | usbnet is nice and fast - I just do not like to use cable |
| 18:01.00 | mjr | yeah |
| 18:02.29 | Elrond | hrw - Okay. I'm mostly a cable-lover. ;o) |
| 18:04.34 | hrw | Elrond: I have 4 palmtops on desk, speakers, webpad, printer, monitor, usb hub with bt dongle and card reader, mouse, keyboard, power to webpad cradle, palmtops power supply (just one) |
| 18:04.40 | hrw | too much cables |
| 18:04.55 | hrw | ah.. and two or three usb cables |
| 18:06.34 | Elrond | yikes. Okay. That's too much. :-) |
| 18:06.44 | SpeedEvil | A lot of this would have been resolved if only USB had specified a 'high power' mode - 30V@0.5A as well. A lot of the power supplies for intermediate stuff would just have gone away. |
| 18:06.49 | Elrond | On my current desk: keyboard, mouse, tft. :) |
| 18:07.43 | Elrond | Oh, and usually: my cell phone just lingering around. ;) |
| 18:07.48 | hrw | SpeedEvil: there was PowerUSB specification - few more pins in connector (bit bigger connector but compatible) which had also larger power |
| 18:07.49 | LittleIdiot | beer, math stuff and laptop here ;) |
| 18:08.32 | Elrond | LittleIdiot - Okay... I forgot about the physcis stuff. ;) |
| 18:09.16 | LittleIdiot | by the way - this one can bring beer: http://wiki.das-labor.org/wiki/images/d/d8/Robbi_mit_kaffeetasse.jpg |
| 18:09.34 | LittleIdiot | i just have to add a few more sensors ;) |
| 18:09.59 | SpeedEvil | It wouldn't even need that - just software 'can accept 30V without damage, 'can be powered from 30v' 'uses xxxmA at 30v' |
| 18:10.20 | SpeedEvil | And high power hubs of course. |
| 18:13.01 | *** join/#openmoko tr2x (n=alvar@80-218-185-55.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 18:16.32 | buz | mhh can robbi pour beer? |
| 18:16.37 | *** join/#openmoko zipola (n=zipola@zip.kortex.jyu.fi) |
| 18:17.03 | hrw | SpeedEvil: btw - why 30V? usb is 5V, most of laptops use 15-19V |
| 18:17.22 | buz | 30V seems kinda weird |
| 18:17.26 | buz | nothing in IT really runs on 30v |
| 18:17.33 | Elrond | Didn't firewire have more power? |
| 18:17.41 | buz | unless you need to pump a shitload of power over thin wires of course |
| 18:18.41 | LittleIdiot | currently i've programmed it to accept commands via the serial. i can control it with my cursor keys and move all his body and arms... it has no sensors yet - it currently only knows when a motor is blocked |
| 18:19.05 | LittleIdiot | i'll add some sensors soon and make it find the beer then ;) |
| 18:19.33 | hrw | beer detector |
| 18:19.59 | *** join/#openmoko rox (n=rox@84.52.147.74) |
| 18:20.49 | *** join/#openmoko neurocyt1 (n=cjvdb@p54A76DCB.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 18:21.21 | buz | there must be somethingn like beer detectors in some humans |
| 18:22.02 | LittleIdiot | my idea was to spread a couple of ir-diodes at some fixed points that send signals so it can determine its position |
| 18:22.45 | LittleIdiot | well, the ir-diodes are blinking at different frequencies... simply a ne 555 |
| 18:24.19 | PirateHead | if you have a powered USB hub, can you use it to recharge your batteries? |
| 18:24.30 | PirateHead | your Neo battery, that is? |
| 18:24.53 | buz | i think so |
| 18:25.10 | mjr | should be able to |
| 18:26.46 | *** join/#openmoko [g2] (n=g2@nslu2-linux/g2) |
| 18:27.08 | Elrond | PirateHead - I'd expect that. |
| 18:27.35 | hrw | hi [g2] |
| 18:27.47 | [g2] | hrw hi! |
| 18:28.28 | PirateHead | That's good then. I'll have to get a few powered USB hubs to put in opportune places |
| 18:28.52 | mjr | PirateHead, there are also USB transformers that go into a wall socket and provide a USB port with power (and only power) for charging things like this |
| 18:29.04 | leventhal | Haha.. that's awesome! |
| 18:29.20 | PirateHead | mjr, link by any chance? or should I google it? |
| 18:29.25 | mjr | if that's all you'd need it for |
| 18:29.29 | buz | tons on ebay |
| 18:29.31 | mjr | I don't have one handy now |
| 18:29.35 | buz | for ipods, moto handies etc |
| 18:29.38 | leventhal | could also be useful to charge USBcells maybe |
| 18:29.45 | buz | some for as little as 1$ and shipping |
| 18:29.46 | leventhal | those AAA and AA batteries that charge over uSB |
| 18:29.51 | *** join/#openmoko zep (n=zep@next.boca.verio.net) |
| 18:29.58 | PirateHead | I don't want a used one from ebay |
| 18:30.05 | buz | new ones |
| 18:30.06 | Elrond | """ |
| 18:30.07 | Elrond | * 1200 mAh battery (charged over USB) |
| 18:30.08 | Elrond | """ |
| 18:30.09 | PirateHead | stuff like that, if it's being sold it's probably broken |
| 18:30.28 | PirateHead | you don't just "grow out of" a USB hub |
| 18:30.29 | buz | these are dirt chEAO |
| 18:30.38 | buz | seller makes profit on shipping charges |
| 18:31.33 | rox | good ... a devel list is open |
| 18:31.55 | Elrond | <-- getting home now. |
| 18:34.45 | *** join/#openmoko comicinker (n=simeon@R0c1d.r.pppool.de) |
| 18:35.10 | cbpage | HTC is already using the same usb mini-b |
| 18:36.01 | *** part/#openmoko comicinker (n=simeon@R0c1d.r.pppool.de) |
| 18:36.58 | *** join/#openmoko folken (n=folken@ac192.bs0.orca.ch) |
| 18:37.16 | *** join/#openmoko pike_ (i=pike@server1.freeshells.ch) |
| 18:38.50 | folken | hello moko world. |
| 18:38.56 | spikebik1 | my $70 gps came with a usb charger btw |
| 18:39.44 | stefan_schmidt | welcome folken |
| 18:40.41 | *** join/#openmoko sxpert (n=sxpert@navsys.org) |
| 18:43.26 | hrw | hi stefan_schmidt |
| 18:43.40 | stefan_schmidt | hi hrw |
| 18:43.56 | folken | thank you stefan. |
| 18:44.56 | stefan_schmidt | counter |
| 18:44.56 | aloril | 2 weeks, 1 day 05:15:03 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 6 days for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 3 days for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 18:45.08 | xorAxAx | stefan_schmidt: yeah,more alcohol |
| 18:45.27 | stefan_schmidt | hmm, still two weeks. That's too long. :) |
| 18:45.40 | folken | interesting, is openmoko's software entierly based on gpe? |
| 18:45.49 | stefan_schmidt | xorAxAx: heh |
| 18:46.06 | stefan_schmidt | folken: No. Plain gtk with own widgets |
| 18:46.29 | stefan_schmidt | folken: Of course some inspiration, good and bad, from GPE, OPIE, etc... |
| 18:46.46 | folken | stefan_schmidt: ah, because I though about buying a gsm card for my zaurus... but then i saw openmoko. |
| 18:47.16 | stefan_schmidt | folken: heh, and you get even gps |
| 18:47.24 | folken | and the mirad of unresolved problems in powermanagment kind of stopped me. |
| 18:47.43 | folken | stefan_schmidt: sounds really nifty. |
| 18:48.05 | folken | for years and years i have been frustrated with mobile phones.. |
| 18:48.23 | stefan_schmidt | folken: yes, I hope it will get great |
| 18:48.48 | folken | You can't even send vcards with umlauts between sony ericcson phones *rolleyes* |
| 18:49.02 | PirateHead | anybody know who the "selected developers" are, and/or how they will be selected? |
| 18:49.14 | folken | and the phone crashes if you get a call with a "picture contact". |
| 18:49.17 | alphaone | folken: That is about to change. With openmoko you can be frustrated by your inability to fix the issues :-) |
| 18:49.27 | Morgret | stefan_schmidt: thanks for the xoo skin, I'll be using that after I'm reinstalled the dev box as it's a bit long in the tooth. Looks nice with the Neo background :P |
| 18:49.34 | alphaone | You don't have to blame the phone anymore |
| 18:49.48 | stefan_schmidt | Morgret: heh, np |
| 18:49.49 | folken | alphaone: thats great. :) |
| 18:50.04 | alphaone | Yup I think so, too. |
| 18:50.22 | hrw | PirateHead: selected as phase0 ones? |
| 18:50.26 | folken | but then again, i'd like a _stable_ phone. |
| 18:50.27 | PirateHead | What's gonna be hilarious is, people will be like "How do I do this? Where is this feature?" and the developers will be like "RTFM and write the patch, noobs." |
| 18:50.34 | PirateHead | hrw: yes, selected as phase 0 |
| 18:50.54 | stefan_schmidt | PirateHead: People know for their work in embedded OSS / Openembedded / linux smartphones and of course people who have written to coreteam, explaining why they need one. |
| 18:51.07 | hrw | stefan_schmidt: exactly that |
| 18:51.43 | hrw | PirateHead: and speaking about 'who they are'... if coreteam does not tell then why those who know will tell? |
| 18:51.51 | stefan_schmidt | folken: Starting with the mass market sale, september, there will be stable releases. With _updates_ |
| 18:51.52 | Morgret | PirateHead: that would be totally terrific! Except that the devs needn't get involved in that, or there will be hundreds of them (us) ... we'll be writing a pile of FAQs anyway, no doubt |
| 18:51.59 | hrw | PirateHead: I know two such persons and suspect few other. |
| 18:52.18 | *** join/#openmoko thedaniel (n=daniel@38.98.1.19) |
| 18:52.40 | Morgret | This this will be as good (or as bad) as its community. It's up to us. |
| 18:53.03 | PirateHead | hrw: I'm really interested in developing and testing stuff on the Moko, but I'm poor and I don't work for an OE company. Suppose I have anything to gain if I write to core team? |
| 18:53.50 | stefan_schmidt | PirateHead: If you have a good idea and the skills to do it, I would try it |
| 18:54.04 | hrw | PirateHead: write to them about your skills |
| 18:54.14 | *** join/#openmoko jeddy3 (n=data@h-193-67.A148.cust.bahnhof.se) |
| 18:54.31 | leventhal | an OE company? |
| 18:54.59 | stefan_schmidt | PirateHead: But I would guess that the list for phase0 is more or less done. Anyway, it is worth a try. |
| 18:55.04 | PirateHead | are there companies that devlop for OpenEmbedded? |
| 18:55.11 | PirateHead | or is that pretty much an indie thing up to this point? |
| 18:55.27 | *** join/#openmoko greggles (n=greg@c-67-177-202-16.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 18:55.34 | folken | are there any more pictures of the device? |
| 18:55.38 | Morgret | PirateHead: there is no need to have hardware to test our great ideas. We just need the official dev framework. If FIC sent out a phone to everyone with a great idea (I have dozens of them), FIC would go broke PDQ |
| 18:55.40 | hrw | folken: no |
| 18:55.48 | PirateHead | stefan_schmidt: I would also guess that the phase 0 period is closed, but who knows. |
| 18:56.27 | hrw | PirateHead: OpenEmbedded related companies are: Kernel Concepts, OpenedHand, HaeRWu (my own) and few others |
| 18:56.48 | sxpert | how would I request an openmoko developer kit ? |
| 18:57.02 | LittleIdiot | i'd be interested in a evaluation/development board. did you guys buy it directly from meritech? |
| 18:57.09 | PirateHead | Morgret: that's not entirely true. The toolkit for the OpenMoko platform isn't going to be released until you get the hardware. |
| 18:57.13 | hrw | sxpert: wait till 2007.02.11 when it will be available |
| 18:57.14 | Morgret | OpenedHand stuff "just works" ... at least on Gentoo. I tried everything yesterday, it "just worked" :P |
| 18:57.43 | PirateHead | Morgret: I could write generic apps in C with GTK+ bindings, but no guarentee that that's the best way to actually write apps given the Moko's unknown actual structure. |
| 18:57.49 | hrw | Morgret: 'just worked' or worked? |
| 18:58.15 | Morgret | PirateHead: indeed. We'll have to wait. No rush, the phone isn;t out for Mom and Dad until September |
| 18:58.42 | sxpert | hrw, ok. |
| 18:58.48 | Morgret | hrw: compiled and ran. A pretty good start :P |
| 18:58.55 | hrw | Morgret: yes |
| 18:59.10 | PirateHead | Is there a really good tutorial for getting OpenEmbedded set up on Linux somewhere? |
| 18:59.16 | sxpert | hrw, I'm most interested in integrating Openstreetmap data on the device, and writing software to allow participating |
| 18:59.32 | Morgret | sxpert: seconded |
| 18:59.36 | PirateHead | The one I saw on the OE website's page was a little dodgy. |
| 18:59.49 | cjb | sxpert: oh, that's an awesome project. |
| 19:00.05 | sxpert | cjb, right |
| 19:00.28 | hrw | PirateHead: dodgy? |
| 19:00.47 | noidd | hrw: I saw that |
| 19:00.50 | noidd | congratulations |
| 19:00.55 | hrw | thx noidd |
| 19:01.02 | Morgret | It'snot that the OE stuff is dodgy. It's that it supports 10 million platforms. That's why we need the official OpenMoko-tailored envirionment in practice ... just to make life simpler. |
| 19:01.22 | Morgret | Ouch, lotta typos, sorry |
| 19:01.55 | noidd | we don't need a tailored env really - oe is well suited already I think |
| 19:01.56 | Morgret | noidd: wb |
| 19:02.24 | PirateHead | hrw: it seems that the only way to get bitbake is through svn |
| 19:02.25 | noidd | I do need to decide on native vs emulated for my edit / compile / execute cycle |
| 19:02.28 | hrw | argh.. I just look at gtk2 helloworld.c - this toolkit suxx when compared to Qt |
| 19:02.39 | hrw | PirateHead: ah. I had to push change of it |
| 19:02.56 | Morgret | noidd: yeah right. So everyone making slightly different OE builds and then complaining to the ML that they don't work is just what we need. I don;t think so :P |
| 19:03.16 | noidd | YOu just use different metadata |
| 19:03.28 | noidd | you can switch between distribution metadata at will |
| 19:03.29 | hrw | PirateHead: $ mkdir -p /stuff/build/conf |
| 19:03.29 | hrw | $ cd /stuff/ |
| 19:03.32 | hrw | ops |
| 19:03.34 | noidd | OE is basically glorified make |
| 19:03.51 | hrw | PirateHead: Obtaining BitBake / Using packages|Using releases|Using Subversion |
| 19:04.08 | noidd | actually, bitbake is glorified make |
| 19:04.26 | noidd | OE is a structure around it with "recipies" similer to portage |
| 19:05.00 | Morgret | It's no different to people buildingf binaries for normal Linux distros. In theory they all work ... if you get all the libs right, which is impossible because of mutual dependencies. In practice, you need to know your target. |
| 19:05.26 | noidd | OE takes care of all of that for you. |
| 19:05.58 | noidd | needed to buy draws for my electrical components |
| 19:06.09 | noidd | damn, the women in there threw themselves at me |
| 19:06.30 | FirefighterBlu3 | have at 'em |
| 19:06.35 | Morgret | OE doesn't take care of it all for you unless you know your target. And that's what I;m saying. Let there be the official target, and then it's plain sailing |
| 19:06.38 | noidd | that's ok |
| 19:07.11 | noidd | well, there will be something like distribution/openmoko-neo1973 |
| 19:07.14 | noidd | at some point |
| 19:07.26 | hrw | Morgret: MACHINE="neo1973" DISTRO="openmoko-someversion" bitbake openmoko-image |
| 19:07.28 | Morgret | noidd: they were trying to save their friends from your sight, very martyrish :P |
| 19:07.35 | noidd | which will contain all the "standard" packages and utilities to built them into a flashable file |
| 19:07.50 | noidd | I'm assumeing the metadata isn't in the main tree yet |
| 19:08.30 | hrw | openmoko metadata will get merged at 2.11 I think |
| 19:08.32 | Morgret | noidd: well that's exactly what I mean. Once the target is defined, it's all plain sailing. But we're not at that stage yet |
| 19:08.40 | noidd | sweet |
| 19:09.05 | sxpert | is there some sort of emulator ? |
| 19:09.34 | hrw | sxpert: phone/gps functionality needed in emulator? |
| 19:10.00 | sxpert | well, as long as I can fake it by connecting to gpsd somewhere :D |
| 19:10.12 | hrw | sxpert: qemu then |
| 19:10.18 | sxpert | hmm. kay |
| 19:10.38 | Morgret | I must say, seeing the Neo image in xoo made me smile ... even though there is no substance runnign behing it yet ;-) |
| 19:10.45 | hrw | sxpert: or xoo/xnest and use x86 (or which arch your host machine is) for testing |
| 19:10.54 | sxpert | hrw, ok |
| 19:11.01 | PirateHead | I downloaded Xoo on my laptop and ran it |
| 19:11.13 | PirateHead | but every time I did, everything became unresponsive |
| 19:11.15 | buz | Morgret: be sure to sit 3m from your screen |
| 19:11.20 | buz | to emulate 285dpi ;( |
| 19:11.23 | PirateHead | I'm not sure it was a kernel panic, but it looked sorta like it. |
| 19:11.24 | Morgret | buz: hehehe |
| 19:12.12 | stefan_schmidt | PirateHead: Kernel panic from xoo? I doubt it. |
| 19:12.43 | PirateHead | stefan_schmidt: don't think it was a proper kernel panic. everythign locked up though, no response from keyboard or mouse. |
| 19:13.05 | stefan_schmidt | PirateHead: ouch, which distro? |
| 19:13.11 | buz | sounds like a x lockup |
| 19:13.21 | Morgret | buz: I know I'm in the minority, but I actually wish the Neo was the same size as xoo on a >17" screen. I have a Nokia Communicator, so I have no hangups about size :P |
| 19:13.30 | sxpert | buz, 285 dpi ?? wow !!! |
| 19:13.50 | buz | Morgret: not sure i understand you point? you want a bigger screen? so do i |
| 19:14.03 | buz | but high dpi is always good |
| 19:14.29 | Morgret | buz: yep, if it doesn't fit in my short pocket, I'll get the tailor to sew a larger pocket ;-) |
| 19:14.44 | PirateHead | stefan_schmidt: Ubuntu Edgy, on old-ish laptop hardware |
| 19:15.09 | Morgret | buz; no, l=higher DPI becomes pointless at fixed distance from the eye. |
| 19:15.21 | buz | yeah |
| 19:15.26 | buz | but thats beyond 300dpi actually |
| 19:15.48 | buz | which is why we have 600dpi lasers these days :) |
| 19:16.15 | noidd | I'n very fortunate - my eyes are incredible on small text |
| 19:16.33 | buz | noidd: resolution would be nice but the speed? miserable |
| 19:16.39 | stefan_schmidt | PirateHead: hmm, I would guess ubuntu uses the recompiled debian package, which runs fine here. Had a look at ubuntu bugzilla |
| 19:16.40 | Morgret | Well, I guess there are two thresholds, "informationally pointless" and "artistically pointless". I agree that displays still improve beyond the infromational 95% point. |
| 19:16.42 | PirateHead | I've never had trouble reading small text, but I still appreciate nice big text. |
| 19:16.49 | sxpert | Morgret, I'd want a 20" 300 ppi monitor :D |
| 19:16.58 | buz | sxpert: sign me up |
| 19:17.00 | Morgret | sxpert: hehe |
| 19:17.07 | *** join/#openmoko ajturner (n=irc@d14-69-228-190.try.wideopenwest.com) |
| 19:17.08 | buz | my laptop has 120dpi |
| 19:17.09 | buz | my 20 |
| 19:17.12 | buz | 100 |
| 19:17.22 | buz | which is actually kinda weird in twinview |
| 19:17.31 | buz | twinview doesnt seem to grok that |
| 19:18.08 | Morgret | I thinik the Nokia 770 tablet thingie at 30cm beats all those angular res specs to a pulp, no? |
| 19:18.27 | Morgret | Highly over-ressed screen |
| 19:18.51 | noidd | I would guess my laptop is 120dpi too |
| 19:19.08 | noidd | 1600x1200 17.5" display |
| 19:19.28 | buz | mine is 1400*1050 at 12" |
| 19:19.40 | Morgret | noidd: yeah, your lappie was hi-res noidd, I could barely read it |
| 19:19.53 | SpeedEvil | sqrt(1600^2+1200^2)/17.5 |
| 19:19.57 | Morgret | buz: you've got a Tosh M4? |
| 19:19.58 | SpeedEvil | = 114 |
| 19:20.04 | buz | m200 |
| 19:20.13 | buz | but i never use the tablet these days |
| 19:20.24 | buz | didnt even bother to configure it under linux, really |
| 19:20.26 | Morgret | buz: hehe, close. I have an M4, amazinfg res |
| 19:20.26 | SpeedEvil | Actually, that makes no sense. |
| 19:20.28 | noidd | I have a different lappy than the one you saw previously |
| 19:20.33 | buz | its still a decent notebook |
| 19:20.34 | noidd | same screen rez tho, |
| 19:20.37 | buz | could be lower weight |
| 19:20.56 | buz | and a dual core would be nice |
| 19:20.59 | buz | but hey... |
| 19:21.09 | buz | i'll buy a quad notebook when they come ;) |
| 19:21.21 | FirefighterBlu3 | dual core is nice, but i don't have a d/c notebook yet |
| 19:21.28 | FirefighterBlu3 | just desktop |
| 19:21.35 | noidd | my wife is actualy pissed off because my neo will probably arriive the same weekend as our aniversary |
| 19:21.44 | Morgret | Oh, my Tosh M4 only weighs as much as it does because it contains the hidden mass of the galaxy in Dark Matter. Hey, someone has to hold it, it's a service. |
| 19:21.51 | buz | noidd: LOL |
| 19:22.07 | noidd | so she thinks I'm going to spend my time flashing it instead of her. |
| 19:22.10 | buz | Morgret: right, can i get paid for doing that? |
| 19:22.30 | FirefighterBlu3 | noidd, is she wrong? |
| 19:22.33 | FirefighterBlu3 | :) |
| 19:22.41 | noidd | no comment :-P |
| 19:22.47 | FirefighterBlu3 | heheheh |
| 19:22.48 | Morgret | buz: leave noidd's wife alone, she;s a lovely gal :-) |
| 19:23.21 | noidd | she's in the UK now btw morg |
| 19:23.24 | Morgret | cya ss |
| 19:23.35 | Morgret | noidd: does she want a curry? |
| 19:23.57 | buz | Morgret: i'll leave her alone when i'm finished SCNR ;) |
| 19:23.58 | noidd | is the sky blue? |
| 19:24.06 | Morgret | Hahahaha |
| 19:24.10 | buz | no in fact its gray |
| 19:24.15 | yacc | noidd: How long are you married? |
| 19:24.36 | Morgret | Always grey in UK. You've been too long in the USA noidd :P |
| 19:24.50 | ynezz | i wonder if there will be enough phones for phase-1 :) |
| 19:25.22 | SpeedEvil | First come first severed I imagine. |
| 19:25.37 | noidd | well, I dont want to be severed :-) |
| 19:25.45 | ynezz | openmoko mailing list is one of most active next to linux-kernel in my mailbox :) |
| 19:25.57 | Morgret | Somebody ask Sean what the batch sizes are. 100-500 is not untypical for proto run. But after that the next run is usually umpteen thousands. |
| 19:26.34 | noidd | it shouldn't matter really |
| 19:26.39 | noidd | just get yer order in :-) |
| 19:26.39 | Morgret | So Phase 1 == umpteen thousands |
| 19:27.01 | noidd | I doubt that many will sell in Phase1 |
| 19:27.11 | Morgret | In that case we're dead |
| 19:27.15 | ynezz | :) |
| 19:27.18 | noidd | I disagree |
| 19:27.23 | noidd | the sales with come in P2 |
| 19:27.27 | cbpage | i think a batch of 1000 for phase 1 sounds about right |
| 19:27.27 | SpeedEvil | It depends. |
| 19:27.30 | noidd | damnit, I'm bleeding |
| 19:27.33 | noidd | sec |
| 19:27.37 | ynezz | just 1000? |
| 19:27.45 | cbpage | at least in march... i think more sales will come over summer |
| 19:27.52 | SpeedEvil | P1, you could get by with 50 or so skilled devs utterly committed to the projet |
| 19:28.08 | cbpage | people with custom apps that can use it will need a few months leadtime... so by late summer/sept they'll buy more for their projects |
| 19:28.16 | SpeedEvil | You're gonna need _lots_ more though, as people won't usually have this much time. |
| 19:28.18 | ynezz | SpeedEvil: thats P0 not? |
| 19:28.24 | SpeedEvil | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:29.07 | cbpage | it's got gps, gprs, and usb power support... i'd be shocked if someone didn't use neos for special turnkey apps |
| 19:29.30 | cbpage | rwhitby could chime in on all the stuff people do with nslu2's ;) |
| 19:29.33 | Morgret | If there is no massive wave of FOSS enthusiam in Phase 1, Phase 2 will not even start. The mobile market is ****SATURATED*** with cellphones. You need something special to take off with the brand-tied mobile shops. The Neo will not be special unless we make it so. And that requires Phase 1 to succeed. |
| 19:29.33 | SpeedEvil | And phone. |
| 19:29.42 | cbpage | yeah |
| 19:30.08 | SpeedEvil | Stick it in a box, and connect a solar panel + anemometer + webcam + ... |
| 19:30.33 | buz | ...and pay thru the nose for gprs... |
| 19:30.40 | buz | ... profit |
| 19:30.57 | SpeedEvil | GPRS isn't horribly bad in some places. |
| 19:30.58 | folken | ah yes.. 10 Cents for 15 kilobytes here.. |
| 19:31.00 | leventhal | it won't happen, but what would be cool is to get a data plan tied to the phone like sidekick and iphone |
| 19:31.23 | leventhal | or even extensions to use their propritary apns |
| 19:31.29 | prpplague | cbpage: actually my employer is interested in OEM'n the mb and lcd for used in some industrial handheld apps |
| 19:31.46 | folken | err $ 45 |
| 19:31.54 | Morgret | I've never heard of anything beinf manufactured in a run of 1000. What is it, a prototype? (too many) A toe in the water (far too few). |
| 19:32.10 | prpplague | cbpage: unfortunately no one at FIC has responded to our contact attempts |
| 19:32.14 | folken | SpeedEvil: www.traincam.ch (work in progress.) |
| 19:32.25 | Morgret | Does FIC even exist? :P |
| 19:32.26 | folken | SpeedEvil: -solarpanel. |
| 19:32.37 | ynezz | what's FIC? |
| 19:32.44 | Morgret | Nobody knows |
| 19:32.45 | FirefighterBlu3 | verizon math? |
| 19:32.47 | cbpage | first international computer in taiwan |
| 19:32.57 | cbpage | owned by formosa plastics (hence a sibling company to VIA) |
| 19:33.14 | Morgret | FIC is a 300-strong company in Taiwan that doesn't respond to calls. Go figure. |
| 19:33.18 | Morgret | 3000 |
| 19:33.33 | folken | maybe they are all busy assembling phones.. |
| 19:33.35 | folken | :) |
| 19:33.36 | Elrond | So this is all a trick to get $350 from us and ship nothing? |
| 19:33.37 | cbpage | i'm just guessing - shawn would know the actual p0 and p1 amounts |
| 19:33.38 | ynezz | :) |
| 19:33.52 | noidd | and the rest |
| 19:34.00 | noidd | FIC has offices all over the world |
| 19:34.10 | noidd | including a mile or so from a friend of mine in Silicon Valley |
| 19:34.21 | buz | fic makes tons of mainboards |
| 19:34.22 | Elrond | noidd - In germany? |
| 19:34.23 | Morgret | Dunno. But I do know that company liaison could be better :P |
| 19:34.34 | noidd | he says he has the concussion grenades ready on launch day so he can aquire one :-) |
| 19:34.34 | prpplague | amen to that |
| 19:34.39 | folken | phone companies are strange companies anyways. At least they don't care about their customers. |
| 19:34.56 | ynezz | that's true everywhere |
| 19:35.31 | Elrond | folken - Most big comps do not care. That's why I ended here, although I don't really need a free phone ;) |
| 19:35.54 | FirefighterBlu3 | i am entirely happy to purchase the neo |
| 19:36.03 | folken | Elrond: heh, well I'm willing to pay for a _free_ phone. :) |
| 19:36.10 | FirefighterBlu3 | i just want a phone that -works- compared to all the other vendors products which SUCK |
| 19:36.15 | FirefighterBlu3 | especially windows based phones |
| 19:36.20 | folken | oh yes.. |
| 19:36.45 | folken | but then again that is dependent on the exposure of the platform. |
| 19:36.55 | SpeedEvil | Hmm - orange - 'all you can eat' off-peak internet, 75 quid a month. (GPRS) |
| 19:37.14 | ynezz | i myself don't take neo as phone but more as pda |
| 19:37.20 | Morgret | Elrond: now that you mention it ... since the Neo will only be available by international mail order, and we've not heard from FIC as such yet, and if nothing arrives in the post then we have no recourse of any kind ... it's looking a bit odd. |
| 19:37.20 | Elrond | I am willing to pay, if I can have it in my hand before and see, if it feels good. (Yes, I'm old-fashioned in that). Or a money back guarantee. ;) |
| 19:37.21 | folken | SpeedEvil: quid? |
| 19:37.29 | folken | SpeedEvil: USD? |
| 19:37.39 | cjb | GBP. |
| 19:37.47 | folken | ah thx. :) |
| 19:38.53 | folken | ynezz: zaur(i)us is a pretty decent linux pda. |
| 19:38.55 | Elrond | Morgret - Right... I'd rather like to purchase from a .de thingy. Here we even have a money back, if you send the thing back within 2 weeks. :) |
| 19:39.06 | ynezz | folken: without phone :) |
| 19:39.16 | folken | ynezz: true true. :) |
| 19:39.17 | Morgret | If we hear of friends receiving their Neo's though, that will inspire confidence. |
| 19:40.27 | Elrond | Morgret - They're just playing with you then. ;o) |
| 19:40.28 | noidd | Morg: there will be a UK reseller |
| 19:40.28 | folken | ynezz: but perfect for completing monkey island on scummvm during military service. |
| 19:40.28 | noidd | FIC as a huge distribution network. You won't need to be concerned |
| 19:40.29 | ynezz | i don't think, that friends owning n73 and similar will ever buy neo |
| 19:40.56 | Elrond | noidd - Will that reseller be available from 03-11? |
| 19:41.04 | folken | but the n73 aims to be a surf tool.. not so much communication. |
| 19:41.13 | folken | buy a tablet and a moko. :) |
| 19:41.14 | noidd | that I do not know. |
| 19:41.28 | noidd | I saw Sean talk about there being at least one in EU in March |
| 19:41.38 | ynezz | nice |
| 19:41.40 | *** join/#openmoko snatches (n=slapnik@rrcs-70-61-81-90.midsouth.biz.rr.com) |
| 19:41.51 | noidd | I'm guessing there will be one in the US too |
| 19:41.59 | noidd | but Sept they'll be everywhere of course. |
| 19:42.07 | noidd | counter |
| 19:42.08 | aloril | 2 weeks, 1 day 04:17:51 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 6 days for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 3 days for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 19:42.22 | Elrond | Okay, one in eu is already better.... |
| 19:42.27 | snatches | hey, do you have to be a registered developer to get into the wiki.openmoko.org site? |
| 19:42.43 | noidd | snatches: It will open in 2 weeks, 1 day |
| 19:42.50 | ynezz | :) |
| 19:43.05 | snatches | ok, i'm not crazy then. well, not too crazy anyways |
| 19:43.06 | Morgret | folken: I have a tablet, just need the Moko :P |
| 19:43.35 | folken | Morgret: i also run a tablet laptop. an acer unfortunatly. |
| 19:44.45 | PirateHead | are acers any good? They sure advertise a lot. |
| 19:44.47 | Morgret | noidd: no, Sept is too late. Sept is for mom and dad .. but they won't buy a moko unless we've made it special! After all, it's just another phone as far as they're concerned. |
| 19:45.15 | Morgret | And lemme reiterate: the mobile phone market is **SATURATED** |
| 19:45.32 | PirateHead | Morgret: just a sexy-lookin' phone. |
| 19:45.34 | ajturner | Morgret - the digital music player was 'saturated' when the ipod came out ;) |
| 19:45.51 | Morgret | ajturner: Apple has hype. PIC doesn't |
| 19:45.59 | Morgret | FiC |
| 19:46.03 | Morgret | FIC |
| 19:46.05 | Morgret | lol |
| 19:46.11 | ajturner | well, more so apple has a large marketing dept ;) |
| 19:46.12 | folken | Morgret: i'd gladly switch my sony ericsson for an openmoko. :) |
| 19:46.39 | Morgret | folken: me too. But I'm a techie. Mon and dad aren't |
| 19:46.55 | snatches | iPhone only has like 4-5GB of storage on it though, doesn't it? why would I trade in my phone for less than my ipod? |
| 19:46.56 | hrw | folken: which SE? |
| 19:47.04 | ajturner | what will be interesting is that for every comment about the iPhone people say "its so expensive & closed", OpenMoko can say... 'hey, over here, lookee this' |
| 19:47.21 | folken | Morgret: true, but i hope that the basic functionality doesn't require a techy to operate. |
| 19:47.41 | folken | hrw: se k600i |
| 19:47.51 | hrw | folken: se k750i here |
| 19:48.08 | Morgret | folken: unless you gibe them a moko as a present, they'll buy whatever the salesperson recommends. |
| 19:48.19 | Morgret | s/gibe/give/ |
| 19:48.42 | noidd | apt: botsnack |
| 19:48.42 | apt | thanks, noidd |
| 19:49.20 | folken | Morgret: probably true. but if you can convince the mass market, that $u-tube runs great on openmoko.. |
| 19:50.22 | Morgret | So either we deliver some outragiously sexy apps (and it's reviewers than create the "sexy" hype), or it's just another phone, with the salespersons won;t sell unless FIC has bribed them more than Nokia and Motorola have .. which they won't. |
| 19:52.17 | folken | hrw: i had the 750 before the 600, i primarly bought them because they support bluetooth syncing via irmc. |
| 19:52.18 | hrw | folken: k750i have it |
| 19:52.33 | hrw | but opensync suxx when last time I tried it |
| 19:52.35 | Elrond | Well, if fic continues to produce / support it for th niche. I'd be happy too. :) |
| 19:52.58 | folken | hrw: and i love the serial port, i have bluetooth script that dials my phone via bluetooth from bash shell. |
| 19:53.18 | Morgret | Well we wouldn't be here if the Neo had no Bluetooth. It wouldn't even be in the 2007 ballpark. |
| 19:54.11 | folken | hrw: yes it does.. i use multisync, and its a pain. Severaltimes it duplicated all my contacts. |
| 19:54.32 | hrw | folken: what about adding all empty ones? |
| 19:54.46 | folken | hrw: so far that didn't happen. |
| 19:55.25 | Morgret | Well we have two options. Fix opensync, or write a new one for OM |
| 19:55.29 | folken | i'd love to have simple storage access to all the vcards.. |
| 19:55.52 | folken | Morgret: yep, well need to fix opensync.. |
| 19:56.05 | Morgret | folken: best |
| 19:56.14 | folken | Morgret: but as far as i can see, it seems to be happening.. |
| 19:57.56 | *** part/#openmoko snatches (n=slapnik@rrcs-70-61-81-90.midsouth.biz.rr.com) |
| 19:58.39 | folken | I'd like it though if opensync took the approach of isync, where they list the mobile phones that are supported and add easy profiles to their sync software. |
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| 20:16.52 | leventhal | greeting torontonian |
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| 20:48.22 | koen | OMG DEVEL-LIST!!!! |
| 20:49.27 | cbpage | :) |
| 20:50.54 | hrw | lame |
| 20:50.57 | hrw | kOEn ;D |
| 20:51.58 | prpplague | hehe |
| 20:53.24 | alphaone | heh :-) |
| 20:53.25 | alphaone | nice |
| 20:55.29 | cbpage | can people get kicked off of -devel for being that lame? |
| 20:56.23 | koen | cbpage: I sure hope so |
| 20:56.24 | prpplague | cbpage: i'm sure being that lame has its own punishments |
| 20:57.11 | Sketch | unfortunately the punishments are more often for those around them |
| 20:57.27 | Sketch | in havign to put up with their lameness |
| 21:05.26 | SpeedEvil | Is there any way to convince the mailing list software to send you last weeks mail messages? |
| 21:05.35 | SpeedEvil | If you've just subscribed. |
| 21:07.21 | leventhal | A way to easily filter the mailing list would be nice too |
| 21:07.54 | xorAxAx | leventhal: gmane, NUA |
| 21:08.00 | xorAxAx | you dont need more than that |
| 21:08.04 | leventhal | hm? |
| 21:08.07 | xorAxAx | every NUA has an ignore thread option |
| 21:08.15 | Psi_ | maybe just add a 3rd list, for basic questions |
| 21:08.32 | xorAxAx | leventhal: http://www.gmane.org/ |
| 21:08.42 | xorAxAx | leventhal: NUA is a news user agent |
| 21:08.54 | SpeedEvil | The easy way to solve it is a list for stupid questions and flames :) |
| 21:09.05 | leventhal | Ohh.. cool. I was just hoping to filter the lists into separate inbox folders. |
| 21:09.17 | Morgret | Although it says "Developer Lounge" in the title, this will never be the dev hangout simply because it's the natural place for everyone to come ... need two #channels minimum, with a strict tech-only charter on the dev one. Same for MLs |
| 21:09.39 | xorAxAx | Morgret: currently there are no devs yet, so its fine |
| 21:09.47 | leventhal | Looks like I can filter on To: or X-Been-There |
| 21:10.04 | Morgret | xorAxAx: yeah. Currently we're all handwaving, impatiently :P |
| 21:10.35 | xorAxAx | there is a new mailinglist |
| 21:10.41 | Morgret | lol |
| 21:10.48 | newmedian | Would be nice to avoid a rush on sale day. A pre-order for the phone would be great. |
| 21:10.57 | Morgret | true |
| 21:11.01 | *** join/#openmoko ajturner (n=ajturner@d14-69-64-67.try.wideopenwest.com) |
| 21:11.05 | greggles | Morgret: apparently it's just some of us, but yeah |
| 21:11.31 | greggles | speaking of pre-order, I'm basically planning on buying as many as my credit card will let me - is that wrong? |
| 21:11.52 | Morgret | Preorder would also help FIC adjust to order volume, wether low or high |
| 21:12.01 | xorAxAx | i cantfind the flame thread |
| 21:12.03 | SpeedEvil | I doubt it. |
| 21:12.08 | xorAxAx | are the trolls too dumb to change the subject? |
| 21:12.22 | Morgret | trolls are always dumb |
| 21:12.28 | newmedian | If there's adequate volume, then I imagine multiples would be fine. |
| 21:12.30 | SpeedEvil | They are going to have to probably have committed to a volume by now I'd imagine. |
| 21:13.13 | xorAxAx | how is it called? |
| 21:14.34 | xorAxAx | ah, the marcus-subthread |
| 21:15.31 | greggles | SpeedEvil: newmedian: that's my question - is the dev release limited volume? |
| 21:15.51 | Morgret | Well that's why preorder is important. Tooling up production lines is *EXPENSIVE*. There will be physical changes between Phase1 and Phase2 production runs (it would be a miracle if not), so they need to know the numbers for Phase 1. |
| 21:16.03 | FirefighterBlu3 | that seems to be implied for the first round. i.e. "selected developers" |
| 21:16.11 | FirefighterBlu3 | the second round is entirely vague |
| 21:16.13 | newmedian | sorry, I don't know. But I imagine they're gearing up for the public round of sales (September was it?) |
| 21:16.22 | Morgret | That's Phase 2 |
| 21:17.11 | Morgret | Phase 2 entails large numbers. Phase 1 is the germ-seed ... the time where the enthusiasts can make this thing fly. or not. |
| 21:17.35 | FirefighterBlu3 | pigs on bricks can fly with sufficient thrust |
| 21:17.55 | newmedian | But the tech specs on second version are still.. indeterminate, I imagine. (WiFi?) |
| 21:18.44 | Elrond | Will the retail thing in Sept. be also at $350? |
| 21:18.50 | Morgret | Phase 2 is dead if Phase 1 doesn't succeed, because the Neo will just be yet another ordinary phone without something special happening in Phase 1. And there are 10 gazzilion ordinary mobile phones out there. Market is saturated. |
| 21:19.09 | Morgret | It's up to us in Phase 1. |
| 21:20.04 | FirefighterBlu3 | actually there are a lot of fancy phones out there but vendors have disabled a lot of gadgetry :( OM is one of the first phones with nearly all the gadgetry exposed :-D and that the software is entirely accessible makes me drool |
| 21:20.19 | leventhal | FirefighterBlu3: Amen |
| 21:20.29 | leventhal | I'm sick of providers advertising features for phones and then disabling them |
| 21:20.45 | newmedian | (which is more prevalent in the U.S.) |
| 21:20.58 | Morgret | Yep, makes me drool as well. But makes my mom and dad look at me blankly. And the success of Neo depends not on me but on them. |
| 21:21.00 | SpeedEvil | UK too. |
| 21:21.23 | FirefighterBlu3 | i badly want a phone that i can do things like asterisk w/, ie. only allowing certain callers at certain times, and selective straight-to-voicemail etc or flat out immediate goodbye-i-don't-want-to-talk-to-you |
| 21:21.24 | SpeedEvil | 'Take photos and print them out on any bluetooth printer' |
| 21:21.35 | FirefighterBlu3 | i.e. iptables-neo |
| 21:21.42 | noidd | porting cups would be overkill :-P |
| 21:21.52 | hrw | porting? |
| 21:21.53 | FirefighterBlu3 | -s ex-bf -j TARPIT |
| 21:21.57 | Morgret | Phase 2 belongs to Mom and Dad, as FIC have said. It doesn't matter what turns *us* on. |
| 21:22.04 | SpeedEvil | That is nice. Caller-ID + actually being able to talk to the phone. |
| 21:22.14 | SpeedEvil | That is nice. Caller-ID + actually being able to talk on the phone with an app. |
| 21:22.17 | koen | porting? |
| 21:22.20 | FirefighterBlu3 | aye |
| 21:22.21 | koen | PORTING? |
| 21:22.25 | koen | PORTING?!?!?!??!?! |
| 21:22.28 | noidd | ok |
| 21:22.32 | noidd | cross-compiling :-P |
| 21:22.37 | koen | 'bibtake cups' |
| 21:22.39 | koen | ehm |
| 21:22.41 | koen | bitbake |
| 21:22.45 | noidd | oh, its in there already |
| 21:22.47 | noidd | cool :-P |
| 21:23.02 | Elrond | *G* |
| 21:23.11 | noidd | Unlike Koen, I don't have the entire OE manifest memorized :-D |
| 21:23.20 | newmedian | Dual SIM would be nice. |
| 21:23.25 | koen | nah, I worked on cups a while ago |
| 21:23.28 | SpeedEvil | It would be nice if there was decent voice recognition on linux. |
| 21:23.47 | noidd | koen: do you know who took over the perl recipies in OE from the work I did? |
| 21:23.48 | koen | http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/repo/?action=details&pnm=cups |
| 21:23.52 | SpeedEvil | Voice message -> text would be nice. |
| 21:23.58 | koen | noidd: jamie 'v8jlene' lenehan |
| 21:24.09 | newmedian | On the reverse side of the coin, I suppose Festival will work. |
| 21:24.16 | hrw | perl packaging suxx |
| 21:24.28 | hrw | 890 packages... |
| 21:24.32 | noidd | !! |
| 21:24.35 | koen | newmedian: flite |
| 21:24.36 | noidd | seriously? |
| 21:24.42 | newmedian | ahh. |
| 21:24.43 | hrw | each module == package |
| 21:24.57 | noidd | He port all of cpan? |
| 21:25.07 | noidd | or each module in base? |
| 21:25.14 | noidd | there can't be 890 modules in base |
| 21:25.17 | noidd | shurely |
| 21:25.39 | SpeedEvil | That's why you need the 8Gb card :) |
| 21:25.48 | hrw | ~855 in base iirc |
| 21:26.04 | hrw | or atleast 855 in OZ feed |
| 21:26.13 | hrw | k. back to movie |
| 21:26.14 | noidd | I can guess why he did that |
| 21:26.26 | noidd | but i'm wondering if the medicine isn't worse than the cure. |
| 21:27.16 | mickeyl | guys have requested me to do the same |
| 21:27.19 | mickeyl | for python |
| 21:27.22 | mickeyl | but i refused |
| 21:27.35 | mickeyl | although my packaging is not perfect, handcrafted packaging is still more sane than one package per module |
| 21:27.51 | mickeyl | and i took quite a lot of thought into the python packages |
| 21:27.52 | noidd | Well, the perl buld process I think has 20 optional modules |
| 21:27.58 | noidd | which default to yes |
| 21:28.16 | noidd | I'm leaning towards your leaning mickeyl |
| 21:28.27 | noidd | I really don't want to deal with that much meta-data |
| 21:28.44 | Morgret | Apply JIT guys. Porting the whole world to OM is not necessary. |
| 21:28.58 | noidd | I'm going to look at the perl sources |
| 21:29.02 | SpeedEvil | Google-earth! |
| 21:29.04 | noidd | 855 looks way too obscene |
| 21:29.05 | SpeedEvil | (joke) |
| 21:29.35 | noidd | I wonder what would be an acceptable size for an interpreted lanugage to be considered for inclusion in default |
| 21:29.39 | Morgret | SpeedEvil: that's not enough. I think all of Google should run on OM. |
| 21:29.51 | noidd | Well, it depends on use I guess |
| 21:29.52 | noidd | wierd |
| 21:30.00 | koen | noidd: what makes you think 'size' is an deciding factor? |
| 21:30.04 | noidd | back in a bit - I need to look at this. |
| 21:30.18 | Morgret | While we're at it, of course OM should run Vista under Xen. Alternatively, we could be sane. |
| 21:30.22 | noidd | Its one factor of many |
| 21:30.34 | newmedian | IMAP4 IDLE would be nice if supported in the default email client. Not too many phones are supporting the faux push email at the moment. |
| 21:30.56 | noidd | its an issue for me. I'm not going to put a 50Mb perl distro on my own phone regardless |
| 21:31.00 | FirefighterBlu3 | idle would be excellent, it would increase battery life |
| 21:31.23 | *** part/#openmoko reparaz_ (n=o@87.216.186.170) |
| 21:31.27 | noidd | it really should be called NOOP support as idle infers being. |
| 21:31.28 | noidd | erm |
| 21:31.31 | noidd | idle |
| 21:31.32 | noidd | :-) |
| 21:31.35 | FirefighterBlu3 | :) |
| 21:31.44 | Elrond | hihi ;) |
| 21:31.50 | FirefighterBlu3 | 'lo |
| 21:31.58 | Elrond | noidd - So you want java? ;o) |
| 21:32.06 | Elrond | ... as scripting language. ;) |
| 21:32.22 | Morgret | I sometimes wonder if people realize that an S2C2410 is actually more in its element running a washing machine. We need to optimize. |
| 21:33.05 | Elrond | Morgret - It doesn't have an fpu, right? |
| 21:33.31 | SpeedEvil | IMO, think P100. It's a powerful machine - but not like a desktop of today. |
| 21:33.31 | Elrond | mickeyl - BTW: Is all the audio going through the CPU for an active call? |
| 21:33.38 | FirefighterBlu3 | elrond, no. it does verizon math |
| 21:33.45 | greentux | ~ibot |
| 21:33.46 | apt | i heard ibot is a blootbot written in perl run by TimRiker on his server. logs on http://ibot.rikers.org/<chan>/ , ibot, jbot, apt are all the same process. It uses sqlite, but mysql or other SQL storage is also supported. |
| 21:33.48 | mickeyl | Elrond: no, that'd be too slow |
| 21:33.55 | mickeyl | audio is coming from ti module via analog |
| 21:34.04 | mickeyl | we route it with the codec mixer to the output |
| 21:34.25 | Elrond | mickeyl - Ahh, and the other way? (mic -> ? -> gsm) |
| 21:34.34 | mickeyl | same way |
| 21:34.44 | mickeyl | which doesn't mean we couldn't intercept if we wanted to |
| 21:34.54 | greentux | newmedian: imap idle should be not a problem. i try a imap idle mail notifier via jabber (based on jmc) |
| 21:34.58 | newmedian | But the audio going to the output can be monitored and recorded? [Not every country needs that annoying beep during record] |
| 21:34.59 | mickeyl | would need an additional DA AD turnaround though |
| 21:35.09 | Elrond | Ahh. |
| 21:35.11 | *** join/#openmoko Tv (n=tv@38.98.1.19) |
| 21:35.17 | Elrond | So we could apply filters. ;o) |
| 21:35.22 | mickeyl | in theory |
| 21:35.31 | noidd | so its not possible for the OS to be able to intercept the audio? |
| 21:35.32 | Elrond | Yeah. Modulo cpu speed. :) |
| 21:35.40 | newmedian | great, greentux |
| 21:35.49 | mickeyl | noidd: you can, but it will introduce a lot of latency |
| 21:35.54 | Elrond | noidd - The OS can intercept it. Read again. :) |
| 21:35.56 | mickeyl | you can record and playback what you like though |
| 21:36.07 | noidd | Ok, but for a call screening process that wouldn't actually matter |
| 21:36.15 | noidd | sweet |
| 21:36.16 | noidd | good news. |
| 21:36.32 | mickeyl | you need to pester XorA to make all that sweet stuff happening ;) |
| 21:36.42 | newmedian | (I expect I'll hear next that Asterisk is running on it. ;) ) |
| 21:36.42 | mickeyl | the wolfson codecs wizard |
| 21:37.25 | Elrond | noidd - It means, that we can disable the mic ---> gsm line, while no call is on. :) |
| 21:38.46 | greentux | one of th etwo wolfson wizards :) |
| 21:39.44 | noidd | thank you FBI/NSA |
| 21:40.01 | Elrond | Huh? |
| 21:40.44 | *** part/#openmoko greggles (n=greg@c-67-177-202-16.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 21:40.59 | Elrond | So, what's left: Power analysis of the gsm chip. ;) |
| 21:41.01 | newmedian | Yes, speaking as a Canadian, that turning on the Mic thing from remote sounds... unpleasant... in commercial cell phones. |
| 21:41.41 | Elrond | newmedian - Right. That's, why it's good, that we can feed the gsm chip with some noise. ;o) |
| 21:42.02 | *** join/#openmoko faded515 (n=faded515@cpc3-hatf4-0-0-cust764.lutn.cable.ntl.com) |
| 21:42.42 | mickeyl | greentux: no matter how superior Qt may be, the vendors what a) dropping license costs and b) total control |
| 21:42.47 | mickeyl | s/what/want/ |
| 21:43.03 | mickeyl | i think that's why Gtk+ gained such a popularity |
| 21:43.16 | mickeyl | i could be wrong though |
| 21:43.35 | hrw|tv | gtk helloworld suxx anyway |
| 21:43.40 | so_solid_moo | I think Qt not being free multiplatform didn't help |
| 21:43.46 | newmedian | Is there going to be any ZRTP (or SRTP) for the VOIP? Aside from a bit of latency, do you think it's fast enough to do audio stream encryption over standard GSM (not VOIP data)? |
| 21:43.46 | mickeyl | ya |
| 21:44.04 | SpeedEvil | It has a 2Gb card. |
| 21:44.12 | SpeedEvil | That is enough for days of one-time pad. |
| 21:44.20 | greentux | mickeyl: have you something to do with limo too? |
| 21:44.29 | noidd | mickeyl: there are 36 modules in perl base distro |
| 21:44.50 | noidd | back in another 10 mins |
| 21:44.56 | cying | ewww C++ |
| 21:45.24 | greentux | newmedian: over standard gsm? how? |
| 21:45.26 | mickeyl | greentux: no. OpenMoko Inc. tried to stay away from consortiums until they have something releaseable. They are more into running code than API documents, framework manifests and what not... |
| 21:45.30 | Elrond | newmedian - A P100... hmm, it would give some latency, but I think, (z/s)rtp might work. I have no idea, if we can feed the gsm chip with pre-gsm-compressed (and encrypted) data. |
| 21:45.47 | mickeyl | greentux: that could change once there is a release out though |
| 21:46.28 | greentux | mickeyl: how owns openmoko inc.?? wondering... |
| 21:46.31 | newmedian | It would be nice to have encrypted VOIP. On the GSM side I mean re-routing the audio through an encryption algo so that you're running an encrypted conversation through a standard audio call, not a data call ($$$) |
| 21:46.39 | FirefighterBlu3 | does anyone know of any imap servers that can do notifies via sms? |
| 21:47.11 | greentux | s/how/who |
| 21:47.13 | Morgret | The Qt issue is simple. Trolltech's licensing conditions are slightly "problematic" (ie. cost a bit of money) if the dev is done by a company. In contrast, Qt costs nothing if done by non-business peeps. The obvious answer is for neo to launch without Qt, and for the community to add it. |
| 21:47.33 | larstobi | FirefighterBlu3: are you thinking of "push email"? |
| 21:47.35 | greentux | newmedian: you need a data channel vor voip |
| 21:47.39 | mickeyl | greentux: it is my understanding that atm. FIC is 100% owner |
| 21:47.52 | mickeyl | greentux: china is far away though ;) |
| 21:47.55 | greentux | mickeyl: aaaah ok. |
| 21:48.07 | FirefighterBlu3 | larstobi, i'm thinking non-microsoft support for this "push email" idea |
| 21:48.25 | newmedian | greentux, yes, I was actually talking about two things at once. ;) Data channel for VOIP (pref. Z/SRTP), and Audio Channel for regular cell calls. |
| 21:48.30 | larstobi | FirefighterBlu3: then the IMAP has a better solution for you; the IDLE command |
| 21:48.32 | FirefighterBlu3 | i hate to call it push email because i don't really feel the term is accurate |
| 21:48.43 | FirefighterBlu3 | i'm quite familiar with IDLE |
| 21:48.55 | larstobi | but you don't want to be connected all the time? |
| 21:49.03 | FirefighterBlu3 | my point is to tell the imap server to send sms notifies for new mail |
| 21:49.24 | greentux | newmedian: then you have look for the right codecs. gsm csd is 9600bit/s... crypted etc. You can try a 2400bit/s codec |
| 21:49.31 | FirefighterBlu3 | right, i want the phone to physically stay idle until an sms arrives and then it can poll the mail server |
| 21:49.43 | FirefighterBlu3 | battery saving 'n all |
| 21:49.47 | larstobi | I see |
| 21:49.53 | Elrond | newmedian - data for voip with srtp should work, I think. Main iussue is probably the audio codec. I have no idea, if speex works in realtime on such a "slow" cpu. |
| 21:50.36 | greentux | forget the grps data channel. to much latency |
| 21:50.45 | newmedian | Elrond, greentux, thanks |
| 21:51.02 | larstobi | FirefighterBlu3: I'm not certain that implementing SMS notify on the IMAP server is the appropriate solution. Perhaps having an IMAP client monitor the account with IDLE and send SMS when it gets a new mail? |
| 21:51.06 | ynezz | FirefighterBlu3: you can send this sms through procmail/sendmail... |
| 21:51.21 | Elrond | sppex is quite nice on the desktop though. :-) |
| 21:51.51 | FirefighterBlu3 | ynezz, yes, but i'd like this feature to be usable by mom and grandpa as well as myself, they usually don't grok procmail |
| 21:52.15 | Morgret | Bah, you picked the wrong mom and dad ;-0 |
| 21:52.26 | Morgret | You're right :P |
| 21:52.36 | FirefighterBlu3 | heheh |
| 21:52.42 | *** join/#openmoko PhilKC (i=greece@freenode/staff/about.linux.philkc) |
| 21:53.09 | Elrond | I'll try to get my mom/dad to give me a OM for birthday ;o) |
| 21:54.04 | FirefighterBlu3 | http://www.isode.com/whitepapers/imap-idle.html |
| 21:54.40 | larstobi | FirefighterBlu3: are you going to run the IMAP server yourself? |
| 21:54.56 | FirefighterBlu3 | i do run my own imap server, yes |
| 21:55.06 | larstobi | I mean for you parents |
| 21:55.21 | FirefighterBlu3 | i do for some of my relatives |
| 21:55.23 | FirefighterBlu3 | not all |
| 21:55.26 | mickeyl | c'ya guys |
| 21:55.29 | FirefighterBlu3 | ciao |
| 21:55.31 | Morgret | Seriously ... we'll be buying OMs for mom and dad and everyone else on the Xmas list. But they won't thank us for it if it's crap, by THEIR definition/reqs. It's up to us. |
| 21:55.32 | *** join/#openmoko PhilKC (i=greece@freenode/staff/about.linux.philkc) |
| 21:55.59 | larstobi | FirefighterBlu3: do they use webmail or your usual Lookout/Thunderbird IMAP client? |
| 21:56.21 | FirefighterBlu3 | they use webmail, thunderbird, and their phone depending on who they are |
| 21:57.09 | larstobi | ok, for webmail, it's as easy as creating a pre-made rule for generating a procmail/Sieve-rule that sends info to an SMS app |
| 21:57.17 | FirefighterBlu3 | i can do the sms on my server, that's not a problem. but i'm getting the feeling that there will be an "industry" use of sms notifies since windows phones already support it |
| 21:57.22 | larstobi | It's really easy to do with Horde Ingo |
| 21:57.28 | FirefighterBlu3 | yes, i know. i write email software :) |
| 21:57.47 | FirefighterBlu3 | the phone has to support it too |
| 21:57.54 | larstobi | and they can just do a checkbox to enable it |
| 21:58.09 | FirefighterBlu3 | with windows phones and exchange, that checkbox already exists |
| 21:58.18 | Elrond | Morgret - Yep. They will cry "What's that? I can't even handle the VCR, what shgould I do with that phnine without keys?" ;o) |
| 21:58.24 | larstobi | okay...I don't know what kind of protocol they use for that |
| 21:59.16 | Morgret | Yep. OM needs an extremely simple front end with nice eye candy and VERY simple controls. The back end that turns us on needs to be completely invisible. |
| 21:59.18 | larstobi | but doing sieveshell on the phone and the notify extension seems like a viable alternative for you |
| 21:59.36 | larstobi | if you run Cyrus IMAP you can have a Sieve server on port 2000 |
| 22:00.01 | larstobi | that will make it easy to do a checkbox on the phone |
| 22:00.06 | Elrond | Morgret - Yep. My mom can't even handle the sms she gets. ;) |
| 22:00.25 | FirefighterBlu3 | i'll probably submit a patch to dovecot for it once i can nail down the protocol |
| 22:00.40 | larstobi | which protocol? |
| 22:00.53 | FirefighterBlu3 | the phone should be capable of telling the imap server what sms addr to use to notify it, to "push" email notifications |
| 22:01.12 | FirefighterBlu3 | the concept/protocol that is already used such as for m$ |
| 22:01.27 | Morgret | It's sad, but that's life. And if we want Neo to succeed for OUR benefit, then it has to make money off Mom and Dad .. and that's an entirely different spec. Forget us (for now). We need to focus on them, come September. |
| 22:01.47 | ninHer | hi all |
| 22:01.48 | CM | Morgret: I totally agree |
| 22:02.03 | CM | And stability above all.. |
| 22:02.03 | greentux | you can do that mail notify via jabber. |
| 22:02.21 | larstobi | greentux: how? |
| 22:02.42 | Elrond | Morgret - Right. |
| 22:02.48 | greentux | you need a jabber server with "jabber mail check" service |
| 22:03.01 | greentux | there you can add the mailbox to monitor. |
| 22:03.01 | Morgret | CM: stability goes without saying. Any app that crashes in August should not be allowed in the Sept launch. |
| 22:03.02 | FirefighterBlu3 | it'd be nice to support mail notifies by [ ] SMS, [ ] IM Flavor, [ ] etc |
| 22:03.18 | greentux | then the jmc jabbers the header or the mail to you. (pushed! :) |
| 22:03.35 | CM | Morgret: We wouln't want it to feel like a WindowsMobile phone, crashing 10 times a day.. ;) |
| 22:04.12 | FirefighterBlu3 | 10? |
| 22:04.14 | Morgret | CM: hehehe. Well, even though crashing might make some people feel at home ... no. We don't want tha. |
| 22:04.19 | FirefighterBlu3 | can i trade phones with you? |
| 22:05.08 | Elrond | It has to be super-rock-stable. That might be one of the selling points, really. |
| 22:05.38 | Morgret | You know what? This phone is going to have the largest body of testers pre-launch EVER. In the emulator of course, but still. |
| 22:05.44 | Elrond | I keep my old phone exactly for that reason. I still haven't found any single bug on it. :) |
| 22:06.30 | Morgret | Ditto: no bugs in my Nokia Communicator 9210 (veeeery old). Zero. |
| 22:06.53 | Elrond | siemens me45 here. |
| 22:09.11 | *** join/#openmoko faded515_ (n=faded515@cpc3-hatf4-0-0-cust764.lutn.cable.ntl.com) |
| 22:10.48 | Elrond | I like the me45, because it's a bit rugged. :) |
| 22:11.16 | buz | i'm wondering about the follow up to nokia 9300i |
| 22:11.29 | buz | that could be the dream phone (minus the fact that it doesnt run linux) |
| 22:19.18 | rmassa | so when/where can we buy one? |
| 22:29.17 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@dsl093-060-111.pit1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 22:31.29 | noidd | you wnat to give people the choice of SMS or Data notification |
| 22:31.39 | noidd | since that is specific to their plan which method would be most appropriate |
| 22:32.59 | FirefighterBlu3 | :) |
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| 23:22.51 | *** topic/#openmoko is OpenMoko Developer Lounge | http://www.openmoko.com | http://lists.openmoko.org | 2007 Roadmap: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-January/000000.html | unofficial Wiki @ http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/ |
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