| 00:00.11 | xorAxAx | nnpiggy: you misread the question :) |
| 00:00.52 | xorAxAx | nnpiggy: cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BLOB |
| 00:00.55 | nnpiggy | Ah. non-binary blob... |
| 00:01.10 | nnpiggy | :-) |
| 00:01.35 | xorAxAx | ok, its backronym |
| 00:02.51 | nnpiggy | I spend much of my day playing with ternary blobs... |
| 00:03.12 | Chris_Ze_German | Not trying to flamebait, but what is the difference between openmoko and zaurus? |
| 00:03.31 | TRIsoft | openmoko is a phone, a zaurus is a zaurus |
| 00:03.41 | thedaniel | well no |
| 00:03.45 | thedaniel | that's not accurate mr TRIsoft |
| 00:03.58 | TRIsoft | OK, main difference is keyboard and CF capability ;-) |
| 00:04.04 | nnpiggy | GPS & GPRS... |
| 00:04.13 | TRIsoft | That too |
| 00:04.15 | thedaniel | TRIsoft: openmoko is the software |
| 00:04.16 | Chris_Ze_German | Or better phrased, what makes openmoko more likely to gain massadoption then zaurus? |
| 00:04.20 | thedaniel | neo1973 is the first device |
| 00:05.01 | TRIsoft | yes ? |
| 00:05.31 | TRIsoft | OK, more serious now... |
| 00:05.41 | TRIsoft | a Zaurus is a shrinked Linux-Laptop |
| 00:05.52 | TRIsoft | Interesting for professionals, business |
| 00:06.09 | TRIsoft | OpenMoko has the big opportunity to hit the mass market |
| 00:06.10 | nnpiggy | Linux has really taken a major hold in the cell-phone market. When the Zarus came out, Linux was still becoming established in the business community... |
| 00:06.19 | LittleIdiot | i'm using my sl 5500 as a voip phone ;) |
| 00:06.36 | TRIsoft | Yes, but beside of the community, nobody cares for the OS |
| 00:06.56 | TRIsoft | That was the Zaurus-Problem. Loooked like a PDA, but it wasn't one |
| 00:07.11 | nnpiggy | Not true--Linux developers are much easier to get than say Symbian developers. The phone makers care. |
| 00:07.19 | TRIsoft | The Neo could be bought and used by the average guy buying a smartphone |
| 00:07.53 | TRIsoft | nnpiggy: You're right. We lived well in the past years from developers and the linux community. |
| 00:07.59 | TRIsoft | But this isn't mass-market |
| 00:08.09 | TRIsoft | And you need the mass-market for success |
| 00:08.39 | TRIsoft | One of our customers is running 1000+ SL-C series |
| 00:08.53 | TRIsoft | But that's a little number to be interesting for manufaturers |
| 00:09.01 | TRIsoft | and that's the reason for the death of the Zaurus |
| 00:09.12 | nnpiggy | Perhaps a valid question to ask about the Neo1973, but OpenMoko itself (the software platform) may finally provide enough attraction by itself to drive commoditization of the phone hardware... |
| 00:09.52 | TRIsoft | Definitey. And this will create a very new level for support teams ;-) |
| 00:10.20 | TRIsoft | "Sir, what hardware are you using, and what OS / kernel ?" |
| 00:10.50 | LittleIdiot | "gtk or qt?" |
| 00:10.54 | LittleIdiot | ...and so on ;) |
| 00:10.59 | nnpiggy | You betcha! About jolly time too... |
| 00:11.15 | xkr47 | pixldown v2 !! http://xkr47.outerspace.dyndns.org/tmp/openmoko-pixldown2.html |
| 00:11.19 | Chris_Ze_German | ok, that makes more sense, the work is going into the software platform which provides almost turn-key for hardware makers, correct? |
| 00:11.23 | TRIsoft | "Oh, you're running Apache on 2.4.20 on the Moko clone from Asus, sorry. No support. :D" |
| 00:11.46 | nnpiggy | That's the idea, Chris_Ze_German |
| 00:12.09 | SpeedEvil | I assume there are no battery life numbers for playing MP3s? |
| 00:12.15 | leventhal | I got an iPod nano for Christmas, and decided that 4 GB is just not enough and that I needed an iPod video. |
| 00:12.27 | leventhal | oops |
| 00:12.29 | leventhal | mispaste, sorry |
| 00:13.16 | Chris_Ze_German | are there specifications/documents/api's for application developers available yet? |
| 00:13.36 | nnpiggy | Sort of... |
| 00:15.12 | TRIsoft | Simply wait 3-4 more weeks and there will pop up a lot of sites with interesting informations. |
| 00:16.31 | TRIsoft | SpeedEvil: Don't forget the lottery numbers ;-) |
| 00:17.45 | SpeedEvil | How accessible is the phone hardware likely to be? I could see an app that was able to register as multiple phones being interesting. I assume there must be some protection to stop 'bad' uses. |
| 00:17.57 | thedaniel | Chris_Ze_German: when the developer devices are sent out, they're releasing that sort of info |
| 00:18.03 | nnpiggy | The recent roadmap announcement gave a lot of particulars. E.g. you'll want to develop to the GObject API... |
| 00:18.17 | paulproteus | SpeedEvil, Linux gets a serial connection to the GSM modem as I recall. |
| 00:18.22 | cjb | SpeedEvil: not that accessible. :) |
| 00:18.25 | paulproteus | Chris_Ze_German, There's some info on that on the unofficial wiki. |
| 00:18.28 | cjb | SpeedEvil: you issue AT commands. |
| 00:18.32 | SpeedEvil | Thought not. |
| 00:18.39 | thedaniel | Chris_Ze_German: did you see this? http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-January/000000.html |
| 00:18.43 | SpeedEvil | Can you make voice calls under programmatic control though? |
| 00:18.59 | TRIsoft | Guess, there's no fun with funny IMEA infos ;-) |
| 00:18.59 | nnpiggy | Yes, SpeedEvil. |
| 00:19.13 | TRIsoft | *IMEI |
| 00:19.17 | SpeedEvil | :) Sigh - wish I had time to actually work on this stuff now :( |
| 00:20.58 | Chris_Ze_German | thedaniel: Thanks, I'll have a look. |
| 00:27.47 | Chris_Ze_German | so is there anything technical available today (source/api/doc), or is wait till feb? |
| 00:27.56 | cjb | feb. |
| 00:28.47 | Chris_Ze_German | that seems strange to me. wouldn't you want to get input/review right from the beginning? |
| 00:30.35 | LittleIdiot | they're either afraid that releasing more details will lead to more questions or they haven't decided yet what things to use |
| 00:31.10 | LittleIdiot | please, let it NOT be opie. |
| 00:31.46 | cjb | Since they're about to sell a phone to the general public with a complete set of software, I think it's fairly clear that they've decided what to use. |
| 00:32.21 | cjb | (And there is that kind of information, but not source/API level information, in the latest roadmap document.) |
| 00:32.40 | LittleIdiot | well x.org isn't much ;) |
| 00:34.00 | Chris_Ze_German | what's wrong with more questions? |
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| 00:34.36 | LittleIdiot | no time for development |
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| 00:44.35 | dougt | emails to coreteam@openmoko.org are creating trouble tickets |
| 00:49.26 | cjb | Sounds sensible, given how much mail they must be getting. |
| 01:02.06 | dougt | slashdot'ed? |
| 01:03.22 | dougt | is there a scratchbox that can be downloaded? |
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| 01:38.47 | sumasuma | shall i make video call with this phone with 3G ? |
| 01:39.00 | cjb | it doesn't support 3G. |
| 01:39.09 | sumasuma | oh ok |
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| 01:49.27 | sumasuma | atleast i expect 3G and wifi support in the smart phones |
| 01:49.44 | sumasuma | it looks like the phone which i bought 10 years back |
| 01:51.00 | sumasuma | anyway 99% of the mobile users are not programmers, so you can also kindly target to users so that they can use in an efficient way |
| 01:52.10 | Psi_ | if you want lots of features, wait for the next version of the phone |
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| 01:56.45 | cjb | sumasuma: it sounds like you're saying that since the phone doesn't appeal to you, it should change. perhaps instead you should just buy a different phone. |
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| 01:57.31 | jaebird | since the phone does not have an fpga, it MUST change |
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| 02:13.05 | dougt | what web browser choices do users have? |
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| 02:17.47 | bprice20 | dougt I asked that very same question |
| 02:18.07 | bprice20 | I suppose you could get an ipkg of something like firefox |
| 02:18.15 | dougt | minimo |
| 02:18.18 | dougt | :-) |
| 02:18.18 | bprice20 | what embedded browsers are there |
| 02:18.49 | dougt | is there a developer page that details where I can get started? |
| 02:19.21 | dougt | oh shit. nm |
| 02:19.39 | dougt | this is really nice -- it is all OE based. |
| 02:19.48 | paulproteus | OE? |
| 02:19.53 | dougt | http://www.openembedded.org/ |
| 02:20.13 | paulproteus | As far as I can tell, these guys are going out of their way to be as open as possible. |
| 02:20.27 | dougt | it is the one true way to build things for embedded linux. when god builds things, he uses something similar to oe. |
| 02:21.01 | bprice20 | well as far as a list of embedded browsers for linux go... here |
| 02:21.04 | bprice20 | http://linuxdevices.com/articles/AT9202043619.html |
| 02:21.54 | dougt | there are others. :-) |
| 02:22.10 | dougt | dillo is similar to PocketIE (for those with ce phones) |
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| 02:23.07 | bprice20 | this thing could dual boot cold it now |
| 02:25.29 | sumasuma | cjb: i just gave my opinion, i don't want you to change the phone ! |
| 02:25.58 | sumasuma | cjb: As a customer i have variety of choices, need not worry about it |
| 02:33.05 | rwhitby | must ... refrain ... from ... replying ... to ... renaissance ... man ... |
| 02:34.39 | noidd | haha |
| 02:34.43 | noidd | he's trolling |
| 02:34.46 | noidd | let it go |
| 02:34.47 | thedaniel_ | for science's sake,please refrain |
| 02:35.00 | rwhitby | don't worry, there's no way I'm gonna reply :-) |
| 02:35.12 | thedaniel_ | that particular troll is fat and happy from all the scraps he has been thrown and it will take a while for him to waste away |
| 02:35.20 | thedaniel_ | he doesn't need any more feeding :) |
| 02:35.25 | rwhitby | indeed. |
| 02:35.38 | variant | the phone will support micro sd cards right? all the way up to 2gb? |
| 02:35.45 | variant | GB* |
| 02:36.01 | thedaniel_ | variant: i think it can only address 1g |
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| 02:36.57 | corndog | will the neo have bluetooth when it comes out? |
| 02:37.38 | sumasuma | wiki says Bluetooth 2.0 EDR will be there, not sure of the software |
| 02:38.10 | variant | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_Field_Communication <-- cool! |
| 02:38.11 | aloril | oh no, I have question that probably needs to be resolved, but might lead to 50-200 mail flamefest :-( |
| 02:38.29 | variant | aloril: lol, can't be as bad as the gnu/linux vs linux one |
| 02:38.34 | ajturner | ooh - tinder for the fire! |
| 02:38.36 | sumasuma | corndog: i have lot of open source device without device drivers, sleeping in the drawers for years |
| 02:39.03 | aloril | variant, thedaniel_ : its unknown if it will support up to 2GiB or even up to 4GiB (later might require software changes) |
| 02:40.11 | aloril | question is this: its probably good idea to have official wiki under some license and I don't see license mentioned at http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko |
| 02:40.31 | variant | aloril: haha yes, a very good idea but helluva flamefest your right!! |
| 02:40.31 | aloril | but I guess everybody contributes will agree to any license official selects ;-) |
| 02:40.43 | rwhitby | aloril: excellent question. |
| 02:41.15 | aloril | anyway, we want to move unofficial content to official site and I think license question is better resolved now than later .. |
| 02:42.05 | variant | agreed |
| 02:44.00 | rwhitby | put it under the OMPL. |
| 02:45.00 | rwhitby | (the OMPL is a new license that says that anyone who clogs mailing lists with licensing discussions is not allowed to use this documentation) |
| 02:45.11 | dougt | does anyone have hw yet? |
| 02:45.43 | rwhitby | dougt: OpenMoko employees - devs get theirs in three weeks. |
| 02:46.14 | dougt | 3/11? |
| 02:46.22 | variant | rwhitby: lol |
| 02:48.10 | aloril | variant: gfdl is compatible with wikipedia, which is major good point |
| 02:48.10 | rwhitby | dougt: 3/11 = 0.27 (recurring) 11 Feb is when selected devs get devices. |
| 02:48.25 | dougt | oic. |
| 02:48.55 | aloril | rwhitby: hehe, started to google on that term ;-) |
| 02:49.10 | dougt | any suggestions to whom I would ask if binary sucked on the device or not? |
| 02:49.16 | rwhitby | OpenMoko Public License |
| 02:49.36 | rwhitby | binary sucked? |
| 02:51.31 | dougt | needed to add an "a" in that sentence, didn't I. |
| 02:52.21 | dougt | if I port an application over, and don't have a device, is there anyone that might be able to quickly look over it to see if there are any terrible performance problems, etc... |
| 02:54.55 | aloril | ok: irc poll: how many here would be OK with GFDL for wiki/documentation? |
| 02:55.27 | tchuladdiass | dougt: from looking at the specs for the device, and from my experience with arm processors (lack of floating point, etc.), the main areas you have to watch out for is floating point performance and video. |
| 02:55.45 | cjb | aloril: I wouldn't, since it's incompatible with Debian/etc. |
| 02:56.22 | cjb | Which isn't a problem if it's purely wiki documents, but if it's actual documentation (e.g. man pages) then it's useless. |
| 02:57.10 | _llll_ | makes sense to have the documentation and program under the same license really |
| 02:57.34 | Psi_ | tchuladdiass, so, do you think it will be at all possible to play 25fps divx video on the neo? |
| 02:58.04 | noidd | that is currently under debate |
| 02:58.10 | Psi_ | yeah |
| 02:58.35 | Psi_ | i figured tchuladdiass opinion, is probably more accurate than mine :P |
| 02:58.44 | cbpage | not at 640x480 |
| 02:58.48 | noidd | the presiding thoughts are that it wil be close |
| 02:59.06 | tchuladdiass | I can barely play 640x480 videos on my zaurus, only when it is overclocked. |
| 02:59.20 | tchuladdiass | But if you can run the screen in 320x240 mode, then it should be fine. |
| 02:59.27 | noidd | that episode of 24 was weak |
| 03:00.09 | tchuladdiass | With mplayer in 320x240 mode, I have to include options such as frameskip that keeps it in sync; the other limitation is the speed of your media device (i.e., the sd card speed). |
| 03:00.14 | noidd | someone threw a box of screws on the freeway thise morning |
| 03:00.29 | noidd | 20-30 cars with blown tires ine the space of an hour |
| 03:01.27 | tchuladdiass | In that case, higher compression helps getting the video off the media faster. |
| 03:01.30 | noidd | I think the issue is bandwidth to the FB |
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| 03:02.21 | tchuladdiass | I'd say that you should have some luck in getting video to play smoothly if it is encoded properly (assuming the FIC device can be set to 320x240 mode). Some places to look is discussions on encoding vidoes for the ipod. |
| 03:02.33 | aloril | wikipedia GFDL page claims this: "Debian developers eventually voted to consider works licensed under the GFDL to comply with their Debian Free Software Guidelines provided the invariant section clauses are not used" |
| 03:02.57 | aloril | but reading further its considered anyway unfree, but OK hmm.. or something like that ;-) |
| 03:02.58 | cjb | aloril: Thank you, I didn't know that. |
| 03:03.02 | cjb | Ah. |
| 03:03.33 | cjb | Yes; it's certainly not an acceptible free software license. It sounds like they made a compromise so that they didn't have to reject all of those man pages. |
| 03:03.55 | aloril | cjb: http://www.debian.org/vote/2006/vote_001 (it seems A amended won vote) |
| 03:04.17 | aloril | OK, so I see several problems: |
| 03:04.29 | spikebik1 | hrm |
| 03:04.34 | aloril | moving between OM wiki <-> OM docs |
| 03:04.42 | aloril | moving between OM wiki <-> wikipedia |
| 03:04.45 | spikebik1 | openmoko should be as fast at video playback as the nokia770? |
| 03:05.14 | _llll_ | moving between OM code/wiki <-> OM code? |
| 03:05.29 | aloril | moving from OM wiki -> OM docs, wikipedia is resolved by using GFDL, GPL, BSD, etc.. licenses |
| 03:05.47 | tchuladdiass | spikebikl: not sure, doesn't the nokia 770 have a video processor built in? I thought it did. |
| 03:05.54 | spikebik1 | not sure |
| 03:05.58 | _llll_ | there's also dual- or triple-licensing everything |
| 03:06.00 | spikebik1 | I know the 800 has a dsp |
| 03:06.23 | aloril | _llll_: yeah, that would allow moving from OM wiki to OM docs and also to wikipedia |
| 03:06.41 | aloril | but it would prevent moving stuff from wikipedia |
| 03:06.43 | _llll_ | debian would also be happy (afaik) as long as one license meets their dfsg |
| 03:08.52 | aloril | hmm.. result indeed was : "Option 2 GFDL-licensed works without unmodifiable sections are free" |
| 03:09.19 | variant | aloril: there you go then.. |
| 03:09.34 | aloril | but I think better limit to wiki only and not bring docs into discussion ... |
| 03:09.37 | aloril | no need ;-) |
| 03:10.04 | aloril | docs are anyway usually licensed by software package, only case where there could be discussion is openmoko additions |
| 03:10.25 | aloril | and .. I'd prefer to leave this out, only wiki needs to be resolved now |
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| 03:11.27 | variant | Is there anyone here who is actualy employed by FIC? I wanna ask for a free unit :P |
| 03:11.37 | variant | or at least know who to suck up to |
| 03:11.57 | aloril | variant: www.openmoko.com has email address |
| 03:12.08 | variant | i mean, in irc |
| 03:12.56 | aloril | will there be movement from OM wiki -> OM docs? |
| 03:13.13 | aloril | (other than covered by fair quote rights) |
| 03:13.55 | rwhitby | variant: did you get your dev application into coreteam@ last year? |
| 03:15.42 | aloril | I doubt there is going to be any/much of wikipedia -> OM wiki |
| 03:15.58 | aloril | (and fair quote is already covered by law) |
| 03:17.51 | aloril | doubt moving from wiki -> OM docs is going to be problem, but moving whole unofficial wiki -> official one might be a bit problem |
| 03:19.54 | aloril | what about this: for wiki only use GFDL without any invariant sections? |
| 03:20.31 | aloril | (reason: discussion about what other licenses to include and what other licenses other OM parts will use is avoided this way ;-) |
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| 03:27.20 | aloril | IRC poll try 2: who is OK (or not OK) for using GFDL without invariants sections for wiki? |
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| 03:31.37 | aloril | hmm.. I have better question: IRC poll: whatever license(s) is/are selected for official wiki, lets use that for unofficial too |
| 03:32.25 | aloril | anybody disagree with list_license(official wiki)==list_license(unofficial wiki) ? |
| 03:33.59 | aloril | meta license: use same license as official site will use ;-) |
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| 03:35.10 | aloril | anybody here who as contributed to unofficial wiki? are you OK for copying your content to official wiki under whatever license is selected for official wiki? |
| 03:35.32 | rwhitby | yes |
| 03:36.02 | rwhitby | (I did all of one line so far :-) |
| 03:39.46 | noidd | aloril: You have my full consent to migrate my content when the time comes |
| 03:40.21 | Zer0HiT | nope you can't move mine |
| 03:40.22 | Zer0HiT | :-D |
| 03:41.01 | aloril | noidd: umm.. you probably should s/You/Whoever is going to actually do that/ ;-) (as far as I understand FIC has/will have employee for official wiki) |
| 03:41.30 | noidd | ah, gotcha |
| 03:41.43 | Ycros | heh, you can always rewrite anything you don't get permission for |
| 03:43.21 | aloril | Ycros: yeah, but at this point I think only need permission from 1-3 persons (whoever set up wiki is probably responsible for most content and possible 1-2 other persons has made major edits) |
| 03:44.42 | tchuladdiass | <PROTECTED> |
| 03:45.01 | tchuladdiass | (got my permission) |
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| 03:45.30 | Ycros | the solution is to assign all copyright over to one legal entity |
| 03:45.49 | WillySilly | Like Microsoft |
| 03:46.00 | Ycros | ... |
| 03:46.04 | Ycros | like many projects |
| 03:46.35 | tchuladdiass | I've got a question for any developers here. I posted earlier to the mailing list, but the thread got sidetracked... does anyone see any merit to including the 2e programming language as a standard for any of the openmoko apps? (lang2e.sourceforge.net) |
| 03:47.02 | Ycros | never heard of it |
| 03:47.10 | tchuladdiass | If there is interest in 2e, I'll be glad to pour some development effort into it to taylor it to the openmoko environment |
| 03:47.45 | tchuladdiass | A lot of people haven't heard of it, since it is relativily new. But it may also be too immature yet to make a call. |
| 03:47.51 | Ycros | where would you use it? |
| 03:48.14 | tchuladdiass | It is a general purpose language, you can use it in the same situations as perl, pyton, or tcl. |
| 03:48.21 | Ycros | right |
| 03:48.29 | tchuladdiass | But it currently lacks some function libraries. |
| 03:48.38 | Ycros | so why would I use it over something that's more common, such as those others |
| 03:48.49 | Ycros | which do have vast libraries of existing code |
| 03:49.19 | tchuladdiass | It is very small and light weight (a couple thousand lines of code is all), and for imbedded purposes the language syntax sort of "disappears". |
| 03:49.31 | Ycros | lua is pretty small |
| 03:50.02 | tchuladdiass | I've started briefly looking at lua, and it does also appear to fit the bill. |
| 03:50.11 | tchuladdiass | But I'm partial to 2e :-) |
| 03:50.31 | tchuladdiass | Just wanted to know if it is worth me pouring more time into it at this time. |
| 03:50.59 | cying | lua |
| 03:51.01 | cying | lua |
| 03:51.15 | tchuladdiass | So far I've had a few positive feedbacks from elsewhere (whenever someone has looked at it), since it does have some unique features. |
| 03:51.21 | cying | lua has a good track record |
| 03:51.30 | Ycros | lua is way more common |
| 03:51.39 | Ycros | and widely used |
| 03:52.33 | aloril | I have read mention of dbus, if I recall this correctly and it is indeed used, then you could use any scripting language that has support for dbus |
| 03:52.41 | Ycros | heh |
| 03:52.57 | tchuladdiass | The main features of 2e is that the syntax is mostly an expression evaluator (i.e., no language statements, just operators and operands). |
| 03:53.04 | Ycros | yeah |
| 03:53.26 | cying | uh huh |
| 03:53.28 | tchuladdiass | So I figured it could be a good imbedded language since the learning curve is very small. |
| 03:54.03 | cying | but what applications would you write with it? |
| 03:54.06 | tchuladdiass | But that is only my opinion. So far I've only got a few feedbacks directly (over the last couple months), but they all have been very enthusiastic. |
| 03:54.15 | cying | that it would be better suited towards over other embedded languages? |
| 03:54.43 | tchuladdiass | I was thinking of mostly either using it as an embedded scripting language for things like an email client, or the phonebook dialer / manager |
| 03:54.51 | Ycros | cying: indeed, so am I |
| 03:55.18 | cying | tchuladdiass: why would it be better suited than another language though? |
| 03:55.23 | tchuladdiass | To use it as an embedded language, you just call some macros to read/write to user variables, and assign specific application functions as callable from the user script. |
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| 03:55.54 | tchuladdiass | crying: it is simpler than some others (as mentioned, a very small learning curve), since it provides just the basics |
| 03:56.04 | tchuladdiass | and any advanced functionality is reserved for library functions. |
| 03:56.11 | noidd | oh, is the author of 2e on the channel? |
| 03:56.20 | cying | simpler is a subjective observation |
| 03:56.32 | tchuladdiass | yep, it is me (which is why I mentioned that i'm partial) |
| 03:56.33 | cying | since from my pov, it lacks a well developed standard library |
| 03:56.57 | cying | and maturity, since i don't see any existing projects that have used it |
| 03:57.06 | tchuladdiass | Yes, it is subjective, which is why I'm soliciting opinions on what would make it better. |
| 03:57.06 | cying | (well known or semi- known) |
| 03:57.15 | cying | OH |
| 03:57.27 | noidd | I saw your post - good work - I'm very impressed. |
| 03:57.31 | cying | could you port its functionality into another embedded language? |
| 03:57.52 | Ycros | or io :)~ |
| 03:58.00 | tchuladdiass | I'm not "pushing" it, just offering it up as an alternative, and am willing to continue to develop it with user input |
| 03:58.25 | tchuladdiass | The main functionality of it is sort of a lack of functionality -- the "simple" concept. |
| 03:58.49 | tchuladdiass | For example, instead of including if/else and flow control, I use a C style inline conditional for if/els processing |
| 03:58.51 | cying | are you the author? |
| 03:58.54 | noidd | I support all new languages - especially when they come at it from a different angle. |
| 03:59.05 | noidd | The only difference between most languages is syntax |
| 03:59.11 | tchuladdiass | and a modified form of the conditional as an iterative conditional. |
| 03:59.11 | noidd | which is just completely arbitrary |
| 03:59.21 | tchuladdiass | yes, I'm the author. |
| 03:59.25 | cying | at least academically |
| 03:59.31 | cying | pragmatically, a lot is different about languages |
| 03:59.37 | noidd | arguing over python/ruby/perl is as pointless as arguing over GNU/Linux / Linux |
| 03:59.38 | noidd | :-D |
| 03:59.41 | cying | from implementation to extensibility to library support |
| 03:59.54 | Ycros | noidd: no, it's not pointless |
| 04:00.01 | Ycros | some are better at particular tasks |
| 04:00.08 | cying | there are huge differences aside from syntax about these languages |
| 04:00.19 | noidd | I agreee completely with the statement that someone made on the list. |
| 04:00.25 | tchuladdiass | noidd: the main difference with my syntax is the lack of syntax... |
| 04:00.37 | cying | like lisp? |
| 04:00.37 | Ycros | there's no lack of syntax... |
| 04:00.43 | noidd | I apologise for not having the author handy but what he basically said was that the strength in those languages is the libraries and modules behind them. |
| 04:00.51 | noidd | Perl would be nothing without CPAN for example. |
| 04:00.51 | cying | yes |
| 04:01.07 | cying | i would add extensibility and implementation as well |
| 04:01.11 | tchuladdiass | Think of a C style expression (algebraic syntax), but without the other control structurs. |
| 04:01.25 | tchuladdiass | Instead, you have an inline conditional, and an iterative inline conditional (for looping). |
| 04:01.25 | cying | like erlang? |
| 04:01.28 | noidd | cying: I've done my share of h2xs :-D |
| 04:01.48 | cying | h2xs? |
| 04:02.10 | cying | tchuladdiass: different from erlang and haskell? |
| 04:02.13 | tchuladdiass | But they are part of the expressions. Actually, the whole script is one long expression. |
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| 04:02.19 | cying | like lisp. |
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| 04:03.00 | tchuladdiass | It is different from haskell, in that it isn't a functional language (instead it is imparitive), and different from lisp in that it is infix not prefix notation |
| 04:03.08 | tchuladdiass | crying: no problem, I'm not provoked. |
| 04:03.11 | cying | ahhhh |
| 04:03.12 | tchuladdiass | I welcome any comments |
| 04:03.19 | cying | so if it were prefix 2e |
| 04:03.19 | noidd | we should solve the interpreter crisis by installing the parrot runtime ;-D |
| 04:03.22 | tchuladdiass | just trying to keep up with the typing. |
| 04:03.28 | cying | would it be like lisp? |
| 04:03.39 | noidd | Parrot can run Perl, Python, Ruby and Lua :-D |
| 04:03.43 | noidd | all bases covered |
| 04:03.45 | cying | but not erlang |
| 04:03.46 | cying | and not haskell |
| 04:03.47 | tchuladdiass | I think so, except I think lisp is mostly set up where everything is a function. |
| 04:03.59 | tchuladdiass | Definately not haskell, and I'm not familliar with erlang. |
| 04:04.10 | cying | nono i was talking to noidd |
| 04:04.22 | tchuladdiass | sorry |
| 04:04.24 | cying | tchuladdiass: but the difference is pretty subtle, isn't it? |
| 04:04.42 | cying | tchuladdiass: most of the advantages i get from 2e, i probably could get from lisp as well... |
| 04:04.55 | tchuladdiass | From an academic perspective, I think it is very subtle. |
| 04:05.17 | cying | well |
| 04:05.28 | noidd | honestly, I don't come from an academic background |
| 04:05.29 | tchuladdiass | But from a usability perspective, people who are used to programming in C, or other standard imperative languages, it may be an easier transition |
| 04:05.35 | noidd | I come from the school of pragmatism |
| 04:05.47 | noidd | but I love seeing different methods of solving the same problems |
| 04:05.52 | cying | tchuladdiass: from a pragmatist's point of view, i would be more inclined to start a project in lisp rather than 2e all things being equal, because: |
| 04:05.56 | noidd | even tho no-one has actually solved it yet |
| 04:05.56 | Ycros | tchuladdiass: how do you call C or other binary code from within 2e? |
| 04:06.13 | cying | tchuladdiass: lisp has several mature implementations, and a fairly mature set of libraries and modules |
| 04:06.21 | Ycros | as in |
| 04:06.24 | noidd | tch: interfacing to C is essential since you would need Gtk language bindings |
| 04:06.29 | Ycros | is it trivial to extend 2e |
| 04:06.45 | cying | for openmoko that is |
| 04:07.12 | tchuladdiass | ycros: Currently, you have to write a "binder" function to call a C library function. So I was planning on providing a set of gtk binders for common functions (which is where I'll need to solicit input, on which ones to target first). |
| 04:07.26 | tchuladdiass | But I'm planning on providing an ffi implimentation. |
| 04:07.34 | Ycros | tchuladdiass: you may be able to autogenerate bindings |
| 04:07.58 | cying | oh boy |
| 04:08.14 | tchuladdiass | I was looking at porting c/invoke to 2e. |
| 04:08.21 | tchuladdiass | (based on a users request) |
| 04:08.31 | cying | tchuladdiass: my advice to you as language author |
| 04:08.36 | cying | tchuladdiass: having written several frameworks in my time |
| 04:08.38 | Ycros | the guy that is doing the new java-gnome bindings is autogenerating them |
| 04:08.45 | Ycros | you could take a look at his work |
| 04:08.48 | cying | tchuladdiass: is to write a fairly complete app in 2e, extending 2e where you need it |
| 04:08.53 | Ycros | yeah |
| 04:09.02 | noidd | tch: the Perl bindings were all autogenerated |
| 04:09.03 | noidd | they have to be |
| 04:09.12 | Ycros | build a useful app for 2e and people will come |
| 04:09.17 | noidd | way too many object and attributes to do by hand |
| 04:09.22 | rwhitby | tchuladdiass: my input: if you build it, they will come. contribute your new language to OpenEmbedded right now, and it will be ready for someone to ipkg install when the Neo comes out. |
| 04:09.32 | Ycros | gtk already spits out metadata files |
| 04:09.33 | noidd | we're talking thousands of methods, objects and attributes, inheritence etc |
| 04:09.40 | Ycros | which is what people are using to generate bindings from |
| 04:09.50 | cying | well |
| 04:09.57 | cying | i come from the school of minimalist language design |
| 04:10.00 | tchuladdiass | crying: Thanks, that is actually on my plate. I've got a network backup system that I'm planning on implimenting in 2e. |
| 04:10.25 | cying | so i would focus on the app first, and add features as the need becomes apparent |
| 04:10.28 | tchuladdiass | Only a few more built-in functions to code (relating to file i/o) |
| 04:10.30 | cying | and avoid autogenerating stuff |
| 04:10.55 | cying | tchuladdiass: i encourage you to do something that can't be done easily in another language |
| 04:10.56 | tchuladdiass | And I was planning on doing a curses based binding to it. |
| 04:11.04 | cying | tchuladdiass: if you really want 2e to take off |
| 04:12.01 | tchuladdiass | Oops, sorry about that cying (not crying :-) |
| 04:12.13 | cying | :) no worries |
| 04:13.20 | tchuladdiass | So far, it includes a couple of demo apps. One generates the mandelbrot set in ascii (slowly), the second one generates solutions to the Cracker Barrol peg game |
| 04:13.28 | Ycros | I typed "cr" then kept hitting tab furiously |
| 04:13.51 | cying | tchuladdiass: yea... for me these are pretty toy apps |
| 04:13.55 | Ycros | I blame pattern recognition in the human brain |
| 04:14.10 | cying | tchuladdiass: which i understand is something you're working on, but choose what you do carefully |
| 04:14.19 | cying | tchuladdiass: or you may end up being a me too niche language |
| 04:14.40 | cying | tchuladdiass: it'll also reveal to you the true applications that 2e will excel at |
| 04:14.43 | cying | excell |
| 04:14.44 | tchuladdiass | The only "unique" featrue of 2e is the inclusion of an iterative conditional operator (looping version of the C inline conditional). |
| 04:14.56 | tchuladdiass | That is the one thing that has people excided. |
| 04:15.14 | cying | yea |
| 04:15.17 | cying | well |
| 04:15.23 | cying | to be honest, it didn't really excite me |
| 04:15.31 | noidd | but that's still just syntax |
| 04:16.34 | tchuladdiass | It is just syntax, but it adds one level that would be more lines to impliment in other languages. The "false" condition of is evaluated if the condition being tested never was true, so it can be handy for error handling in those situations. |
| 04:16.43 | tchuladdiass | Doesn't come up that often, but I've got some examples in my tutorial documentaion up on sourceforge. |
| 04:17.11 | tchuladdiass | The other thing is that it is easily embeddable like tcl, but the language syntax is more familliar. |
| 04:17.22 | cying | to C programmers |
| 04:17.30 | cying | er, imperative C-like language programmers |
| 04:17.35 | tchuladdiass | Agreed. |
| 04:17.54 | tchuladdiass | The other place where I see this syntax being useful is for example as a scripting language for spreadsheet type applicatons. |
| 04:18.16 | cying | but you need to demonstrate to me that a complete app can be written in this language |
| 04:18.23 | cying | and truly leverage and use the language features to its advantage |
| 04:18.35 | cying | like a spreadsheet application |
| 04:18.58 | tchuladdiass | For example, spreadsheets often contain formulas that are just an algebraic expression. But some formulas need some minor programming in it, so the inline conditional along with the iterative conditional could make it easier to use in that situation.\ |
| 04:19.02 | cying | but i fear a lot of stuff will be needed for a spreadsheet application |
| 04:19.08 | tchuladdiass | (easire for non-programmers, was my hope) |
| 04:19.19 | cying | i dunno |
| 04:19.22 | noidd | there are non-programmers? :-) |
| 04:19.28 | tchuladdiass | You mean, like create the entire spreadsheet from 2e, and not just the embedded language? |
| 04:19.28 | cying | with SUM(), MAX(), MIN(), etc... |
| 04:19.55 | tchuladdiass | Oh, I see, have a standard library that would be usefule for that application. |
| 04:19.58 | cying | whatever you intend its best application to be |
| 04:20.04 | cying | no |
| 04:20.07 | cying | i mean |
| 04:20.19 | cying | existing spreadsheet syntax isn't really VERY broken to the point of needing a new language invented |
| 04:20.21 | cying | IMO |
| 04:21.25 | tchuladdiass | The other thing that will help it come to light, I've got some object-oriented ideas to add in, but I was hoping to avoid the mistakes of other languages object oriented additions. |
| 04:21.31 | noidd | meh, I could go either way on that argument |
| 04:21.36 | cying | hehe |
| 04:21.47 | cying | noidd: do you think 2e is the answer though? |
| 04:22.04 | tchuladdiass | I think it can be _an_ answer, if not the answer. |
| 04:22.10 | noidd | tch: fundimentally I like the way you've approached the problem. I've bookmarked your site and forwarded it onto some of my computer linquistic friends |
| 04:22.20 | cying | tchuladdiass: yes but you don't want to be _an_ answer if you want your language to be competitive |
| 04:22.33 | noidd | I can't see it being from what I can tell |
| 04:22.36 | cying | tchuladdiass: you want to be _the_ answer for something and focus your energy on that |
| 04:22.45 | noidd | I don't think the language is specific to that domain |
| 04:23.00 | noidd | a "domain specific language" is what cying is suggesting I believe. |
| 04:23.04 | tchuladdiass | I was going to hope for being a competitive answer, but I'll set my sites higher :-) |
| 04:23.26 | noidd | tch: Do you want my honest opinion? |
| 04:23.32 | cying | noidd: no, not really.. just that tchuladdiass should solve a critical application need |
| 04:23.34 | tchuladdiass | sure |
| 04:23.52 | noidd | The main advantage I see with what you did is its sheer size and flexibility. |
| 04:24.01 | noidd | small size, flexible, nice syntax |
| 04:24.02 | tchuladdiass | By domain specific, you mean like how tcl is best known for tcl/tk as an easy to use gui scripting language? |
| 04:24.11 | noidd | its probably pretty fast too - I've not benchmarked it. |
| 04:24.27 | tchuladdiass | In computing the mandelbrot set, it is about half the speed of perl. |
| 04:24.32 | noidd | if you'd got the word out 3 years ago - you could have been lua |
| 04:24.40 | cying | tchuladdiass: more like how php is best known for web development as a highly productive syntax for web template generation. |
| 04:24.59 | noidd | lua has the "small and efficient" market cornered |
| 04:25.00 | tchuladdiass | But I see where I can improve it (I've profiled it), and could make it maybe only 15% slower than perl. |
| 04:25.07 | cying | tchuladdiass: try haskell |
| 04:25.27 | tchuladdiass | I've been looking at haskell docs, but couldn't quiet get my head around it (one of the reasons I wrote 2e) |
| 04:25.29 | tchuladdiass | :-) |
| 04:25.30 | noidd | tch: try writing a compiler for parrot in your language |
| 04:25.35 | noidd | (seriously) |
| 04:25.50 | cying | errr |
| 04:25.51 | tchuladdiass | What about doing a 2e interpreter written in 2e? |
| 04:25.55 | cying | no |
| 04:26.02 | noidd | parrot is a register based VM that has compilers for 26 languages. |
| 04:26.05 | noidd | and its ammazingly fast |
| 04:26.14 | cying | parrot have a JIT yet? |
| 04:26.24 | noidd | I don't know |
| 04:26.24 | tchuladdiass | Oh, you mean compile 2e down to parrot. |
| 04:26.32 | noidd | its been a while since i've been near the project |
| 04:26.39 | noidd | they still owe me an op-code tho :-D |
| 04:26.50 | noidd | (I bid on a Parrot op-code in a charity auction) |
| 04:26.50 | cying | oh dear |
| 04:27.41 | cying | no wonder it's taking them so long |
| 04:27.41 | noidd | hehe |
| 04:27.41 | noidd | they're working hard on it |
| 04:27.41 | noidd | its works pretty well actually |
| 04:27.44 | cying | register VMs are pretty fast |
| 04:27.46 | noidd | hell - They have an experimental parrot VM in javascript |
| 04:27.59 | noidd | so you can (for insane example) |
| 04:28.02 | tchuladdiass | Well, the way I designed the 2e interpreter, the parser converts it to a postfix notation internally, then evaluates the postfix stack. |
| 04:28.25 | noidd | have faith cying :-) |
| 04:28.27 | tchuladdiass | So as long as I can go from the postfix stack to parrot, it should be easy. |
| 04:28.39 | cying | yea |
| 04:28.39 | cying | but |
| 04:28.47 | cjb | noidd: Not quite; the parrot VM has a JavaScript target. |
| 04:28.53 | tchuladdiass | The main area I'd have to recode is the memory handling. |
| 04:29.05 | cying | tchuladdiass: the point is to get your language adopted more |
| 04:29.08 | tchuladdiass | (which happens to be an area that could use a performance boost). |
| 04:29.10 | noidd | mono is another possibility of course |
| 04:29.38 | noidd | cjb: yup |
| 04:29.46 | cying | tchuladdiass: and for that, you need to effectively demonstrate that it solves a problem better, whether niche or common problem |
| 04:30.06 | cying | tchuladdiass: and if you want to follow the OSX model of framework development, you need to write an app that does that. |
| 04:30.57 | tchuladdiass | So next on my list should be at a minimum creating a UI library (possibly one that will bind to multiple gui backends), then start coding some good apps in it. |
| 04:31.17 | cying | tchuladdiass: maybe... by application, i mean "something that does something" |
| 04:31.30 | cying | tchuladdiass: for example, a compression program has a CLI UI |
| 04:31.35 | cying | tchuladdiass: so you don't need a GUI there |
| 04:31.36 | noidd | tch: what are your aims for the language? |
| 04:31.42 | tchuladdiass | The first app on my plate is a good client/server backup utility. |
| 04:32.09 | tchuladdiass | I've also got some additional loadable libraries that I'm working on. One is a vector graphics library |
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| 04:32.33 | cying | how will your client server backup utility work better than what else is there? |
| 04:32.44 | tchuladdiass | Another would be hooks into a database backend (initially using sqlite). |
| 04:32.46 | cying | faster? better compression, etc... |
| 04:33.12 | tchuladdiass | Oh, I've got a whole topic on that. There is a bunch of areas for improvement. For example: |
| 04:34.03 | tchuladdiass | When compared to TSM, I want to do incrimentals forever like TSM does, but I also want to impliment "standard" retention scheduls (TSM only does "keep x versions of each file"). |
| 04:34.23 | tchuladdiass | Basically, it will impliment normal expiration schedules, along with "synthetic" backups. |
| 04:35.02 | tchuladdiass | Other backup systems I've looked at (open source or commercial) are geared towards one paradime or another, but seldom cross paradimes easily. |
| 04:35.21 | tchuladdiass | For example, most are geared to tape backups, so it is difficult to get them to work with disk based targets. |
| 04:35.34 | cying | i get you |
| 04:35.36 | cying | so |
| 04:35.43 | cying | will 2e make this happen better than any other language? |
| 04:35.54 | tchuladdiass | (which is why some companies are making loads of money creating items such as tape emulators that use a disk backend) |
| 04:36.29 | noidd | tch: If that is what you want to do - I have your PERFECT killer library |
| 04:36.49 | tchuladdiass | There are some languages that would be excelent for this type of application (such as C), but take more work to use. |
| 04:36.56 | noidd | an area which has zero serious competition except for C (and that's everywhere) |
| 04:36.58 | tchuladdiass | Other languages are easy, but not as powerful (shell script) |
| 04:37.10 | tchuladdiass | noidd: Ok I'm interested. |
| 04:37.16 | noidd | FUSE |
| 04:37.23 | tchuladdiass | Good one. |
| 04:37.24 | cying | oooh |
| 04:37.28 | noidd | linux kernel filesystems in userspace |
| 04:37.43 | noidd | make your backups appear in a mounted "filesystem" |
| 04:37.46 | cying | i'm still not convinced though |
| 04:37.49 | noidd | how to choose to backend them is up to you |
| 04:37.52 | cying | python's pretty damn powerful |
| 04:37.59 | noidd | very simple API to implement |
| 04:38.08 | cying | and i don't see how 2e could be more efficient than python for something like this |
| 04:38.17 | noidd | Perl has a FUSE module too but none of the implementations are pretty |
| 04:38.32 | noidd | cying: depends how he presents his APIs |
| 04:38.47 | noidd | I'm not saying jsut re-implement FUSe in 2e |
| 04:38.56 | cying | i know |
| 04:38.58 | tchuladdiass | noidd: That was on my earlier featrure list; to make a synthetic backup appeare as a mounted file system, and items are restored on-demand. |
| 04:39.00 | noidd | I'm saying implement the backup visualisation in 2e |
| 04:39.32 | tchuladdiass | So when you go to read a file, at the worst there will be a couple minute delay while the tape is automatically mounted from the backend server. |
| 04:39.57 | noidd | one of the guys I worked with at DEC wrote a linux kernel module to do that |
| 04:40.03 | noidd | he literally mounted tapes |
| 04:40.09 | noidd | but it was slow and unusable |
| 04:40.14 | noidd | that was 10 years ago |
| 04:40.25 | noidd | technology is much improved |
| 04:40.25 | tchuladdiass | I remember using something like that on msdos. |
| 04:40.25 | noidd | and you have FUSE in the kernel |
| 04:40.35 | tchuladdiass | It was a driver for Tallgrass tape units, I think. |
| 04:41.21 | tchuladdiass | cying: re python: I do feel that python would be a very good language for this type of application, but I have a problem with the syntax in that blocks of code are delimited by indentation level. |
| 04:41.24 | noidd | I guess that's not phone related, but its an interesting domain and one where no language has really set itself apart from the others. |
| 04:41.32 | tchuladdiass | (which isn't elegant in my opinion) |
| 04:41.49 | tchuladdiass | Well it could be phone related -- phones will need backups too. |
| 04:41.53 | noidd | tch: we each have our preferences |
| 04:42.01 | noidd | I like my source code to look like line-noise |
| 04:42.20 | tchuladdiass | yep, and I see the advantages of python's method, but for some reason I have an issue with it (not sure why) |
| 04:42.32 | tchuladdiass | I think it is because it reminds me of what would be done back in the mainframe / cobol days |
| 04:42.42 | cying | yea |
| 04:42.48 | tchuladdiass | (colum position sensitive code went out with puch cards :-) |
| 04:42.52 | cying | but you could say the same about 2e's syntax for other things |
| 04:43.01 | cying | and then we'd have a language religious war on our hands again |
| 04:43.06 | noidd | I have a problem with it to. I see the advantages but on a gut level I don't like whitespace being syntax. I fully understand the point of view of those that do, |
| 04:43.07 | cying | ... skipping that.... |
| 04:43.14 | noidd | Plus, I'm a tab over spaces person too |
| 04:43.16 | tchuladdiass | But 2e is derived somewhat from C, and C is the god of all languages. |
| 04:43.18 | noidd | vi over emacs |
| 04:43.27 | tchuladdiass | vi! vi! vi! |
| 04:43.33 | tchuladdiass | :-) |
| 04:43.41 | noidd | C++ is an abonimation |
| 04:43.49 | noidd | C has its place, and that place isn't everywhere. |
| 04:43.52 | cying | yep |
| 04:44.00 | aloril | another flamewar: default editor in phone ;-) |
| 04:44.08 | cying | Textmate |
| 04:44.13 | cjb | ema.. wait, what am I saying. |
| 04:44.14 | aloril | (no, I'm not going to mail that to mailing list, just joking here ;-) |
| 04:44.15 | cying | Scintilla |
| 04:44.27 | cying | echo |
| 04:44.28 | tchuladdiass | ed forever! |
| 04:44.31 | noidd | We shouldn't be writing general applications in C. It's way too low a level language. |
| 04:44.32 | cying | ECHO |
| 04:44.53 | aloril | over slow connection ed is actually one alternative I think |
| 04:45.01 | noidd | For kernels, drivers, things optimized for speed - sure |
| 04:45.39 | noidd | think how many security problems and SEGVs could have been avoided if we'd used high level languages for things like mail servers, dns, imap, etc |
| 04:45.51 | cjb | noidd: That's interesting, but almost all of our applications *are* written in C. Do you have an alternative? |
| 04:46.01 | noidd | we needed to use low level languages because high level languages sucked at efficency |
| 04:46.02 | cying | python |
| 04:46.06 | noidd | now however ... |
| 04:46.06 | cying | erlang |
| 04:46.09 | cying | haskell |
| 04:46.10 | cying | perl |
| 04:46.11 | cying | ruby |
| 04:46.14 | cying | .NET |
| 04:46.15 | cying | java |
| 04:46.22 | tchuladdiass | I think the positioning of 2e is something that is powerful / general purpose like python, however has a more conventional syntax to it; is imbeddable like tcl, but with a more conventional syntax; and is light weight. |
| 04:46.30 | noidd | cying: I'm talking about our industry in general |
| 04:46.39 | noidd | I'm thinking long term revolution |
| 04:46.41 | cying | tchuladdiass: i would have to disagree, but hey, it's your language. |
| 04:46.49 | noidd | and I don't think the language exists yet. |
| 04:46.52 | cying | ahh |
| 04:47.00 | cying | noidd: *nod* |
| 04:47.20 | tchuladdiass | cying: but that was only my initial purpose, it can grow in any direction that is needed. |
| 04:47.32 | cjb | noidd: Ah, so we're just wan^Wtheorizing. Okay. |
| 04:47.35 | noidd | for openmoko, c/c++ is going to be the main for sure. |
| 04:47.45 | cying | tchuladdiass: i disagree with your initial assertion |
| 04:47.47 | noidd | I won't lie to you, I am going to write some Gtk2.pm apps for it. |
| 04:48.02 | noidd | and I will get the perl runtime INCLUDING Gtk bindings within 3 Meg |
| 04:48.12 | tchuladdiass | cying: you mean about the "conventional syntax"? |
| 04:48.14 | noidd | and it will be as fast as C[0] |
| 04:48.35 | noidd | [0] For a value of "fast" that you can't tell the difference between the reactivity of a C app vs a Gtk2.pm app. |
| 04:48.41 | cying | tchuladdiass: uh huh |
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| 04:49.01 | noidd | 96k for each perl process |
| 04:49.09 | noidd | just less than 1M shared |
| 04:49.09 | tchuladdiass | It is just picky about which conventions it follows :-) |
| 04:49.25 | cying | tchuladdiass: i'm not convinced |
| 04:49.37 | noidd | tch: you're heading straightfor lua |
| 04:49.44 | noidd | competing on its home ground. |
| 04:49.45 | cying | yep |
| 04:50.05 | cying | noidd: i would actually suggest a lua following in openmoko... very lean on memory |
| 04:50.14 | cying | noidd: perl 5 leaks memory like a sieve |
| 04:50.20 | noidd | lua is the logical choice |
| 04:50.39 | noidd | even for a perl fanatic like myself, if it has Gtk bindings it should be there. |
| 04:50.42 | tchuladdiass | I'll have to check out lua a bit more. |
| 04:50.44 | cying | easy to understand, easy to extend, easy to embed, and small |
| 04:50.49 | Ycros | lua is the perfect choice |
| 04:51.14 | noidd | sadly, I agree :-P |
| 04:51.40 | noidd | cying: perl5 doesn't leak if you write your code defensively. |
| 04:51.44 | tchuladdiass | My problem is that I started working on 2e a couple years ago, but shelved it due to work problems. I finally brought it back out a couple months back, but things have changed in the last couple years. |
| 04:51.56 | noidd | or let me rephrase that - I've never had a problem that wasn't caused by my own stupidity. |
| 04:51.57 | noidd | :-0 |
| 04:52.12 | noidd | things like circular refs in datastructures etc |
| 04:52.26 | tchuladdiass | Does lua have any object oriented bent? |
| 04:52.32 | tchuladdiass | or is it straight up imperative? |
| 04:52.45 | cying | noidd: no, it just grows in memory slowly over time... :) |
| 04:53.04 | cying | noidd: and buggy XS modules |
| 04:53.19 | cying | tchuladdiass: yes |
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| 04:53.32 | noidd | I won't fight with you over your last statement. That happens. |
| 04:53.33 | cying | tchuladdiass: easily extensible |
| 04:53.50 | noidd | maybe I should write a perl to lua translator :-P |
| 04:53.58 | cying | i hate you |
| 04:54.15 | tchuladdiass | How is lua for using as a language design tutorial? |
| 04:54.31 | noidd | I wish parrot was advanced enough to deal with XS style modules |
| 04:54.40 | tchuladdiass | i.e., if you were going to write a text book, could you use lua as a basis for it? |
| 04:54.53 | tchuladdiass | (that was another idea kicking around in my head for 2e). |
| 04:54.54 | cying | tchuladdiass: another text book? |
| 04:55.09 | tchuladdiass | Well, mostly an online book. |
| 04:55.15 | noidd | oh, a book on language and compiler design? |
| 04:55.26 | cying | ohhh |
| 04:55.38 | tchuladdiass | My problem is that when I was researching how to put together an interpreter, most of the references I ran across wern't very accessilbe. |
| 04:55.47 | tchuladdiass | They required studying some additional theory. |
| 04:56.03 | tchuladdiass | The notes I've put together are more down to earth. |
| 04:56.13 | tchuladdiass | But that may only be my opinion. |
| 04:56.31 | noidd | the last 10 years of language design have been trial and error. Perl was the Trial, Python was the error |
| 04:57.10 | cying | hmmm |
| 04:57.19 | cying | i wonder how much IronPort sold their 100% python MTA to Cisco for... |
| 04:57.26 | cying | you know, the one that never breaks down or crashes |
| 04:57.29 | noidd | That's pure humour, I promise you |
| 04:57.45 | noidd | I don't know. |
| 04:58.02 | noidd | I will say that a lot of that stability has to do with the fact they wrote it in a high level language like python. |
| 04:58.03 | tchuladdiass | I found a good language discussion board, called lambda-the-ultimate.org. I was hoping to get some ideas from there, but it seems mostly focused on functional programming. |
| 04:58.08 | cying | noidd: fair enough |
| 04:58.38 | tchuladdiass | cying, noidd, do you know where would be a good place for me to discuss language design? |
| 04:58.39 | cying | noidd: although having written a 80K web-based GUI in Perl for Sendmail while I was working there, i'd say i still like python more. |
| 04:58.54 | cying | tchuladdiass: sorry, not sure |
| 04:58.57 | noidd | cying: horses, courses etc. |
| 04:59.20 | cying | tchuladdiass: though i doubt they'll give you the same advice we're giving you here. |
| 04:59.20 | noidd | cying: I wrote an NNTP server in perl |
| 04:59.20 | tchuladdiass | Well, I welcome all advice. |
| 04:59.30 | cying | noidd: 80. thousand. lines. |
| 04:59.33 | cying | noidd: i was crying by the end of it. |
| 04:59.50 | noidd | and actually - there is a perl spam filter which is an MTA proxy which is interesting |
| 04:59.58 | cying | noidd: yes |
| 05:00.00 | noidd | 80,000!!! |
| 05:00.01 | cying | noidd: i wrote it |
| 05:00.21 | cying | noidd: if you're referring to Sendmail::Milter |
| 05:00.27 | cying | noidd: although there are others |
| 05:00.34 | noidd | No, not that one |
| 05:00.38 | noidd | trying to remember the name |
| 05:00.43 | noidd | sec - lemme look on my mailserver |
| 05:01.53 | noidd | assp |
| 05:01.56 | noidd | that was it |
| 05:01.59 | noidd | interesting program |
| 05:02.14 | noidd | always disturbed me that its primary target was Windows perl |
| 05:02.20 | noidd | but it still worked under unix |
| 05:02.35 | noidd | just gave me pause to worry |
| 05:03.09 | cying | what? |
| 05:03.14 | cying | Sendmail::Milter? |
| 05:03.17 | cying | oh |
| 05:03.18 | cying | assp |
| 05:03.20 | noidd | assp |
| 05:03.24 | noidd | loved the concept |
| 05:03.37 | cying | you should take a look at Sendmail::Milter's source code sometime |
| 05:03.44 | noidd | just large enough and disorgainized enough inside that it made me nervous |
| 05:03.53 | noidd | grabbing |
| 05:03.55 | cying | i'm quite proud of that codebase, first perl module i wrote and it was deep XS voodoo |
| 05:04.13 | cying | hehehe |
| 05:04.29 | noidd | now I know where your nick comes from :-) |
| 05:04.34 | cying | hehe |
| 05:06.02 | noidd | Ok, that's awesome |
| 05:06.15 | noidd | way above my skill level I will confess |
| 05:06.30 | noidd | XS and I tend to meet at freeway SIG 11 |
| 05:06.40 | cying | heh |
| 05:06.43 | cying | and intpools.c! |
| 05:06.53 | cying | that was when ithreads was still buggy |
| 05:07.07 | cying | modperl probably has it by now |
| 05:07.55 | noidd | XS truely is evil |
| 05:08.05 | noidd | its possibly the worst design ever |
| 05:08.10 | noidd | evolved into worse |
| 05:08.28 | noidd | Perl6 is doing a complete rebuilt of the XS system |
| 05:08.37 | noidd | but that will break CPAN compatibility |
| 05:08.47 | cying | i think i remember hearing about perl6 when i left sendmail 6 years ago |
| 05:08.52 | noidd | so there are disagreements aout if that is a good idea or not |
| 05:09.03 | cying | parrot and perl6 was just getting started |
| 05:09.25 | noidd | I'm not the greatest fan of the perl6 effort honestly |
| 05:09.29 | noidd | parrot is cool |
| 05:09.41 | noidd | I guess I didn't think that the perl language per se was broken |
| 05:09.51 | noidd | the interpreter needed a complete re-write |
| 05:09.59 | noidd | but the language itself I think is sound |
| 05:11.18 | cying | oy |
| 05:11.22 | cying | but the future is in mobile anyway |
| 05:11.28 | cying | so onward to lua and lisp! |
| 05:12.02 | tchuladdiass | I'm looking through the lua reference manual, and it does appear that they've got things implimented very similar to 2e. |
| 05:12.22 | tchuladdiass | i.e., implimented as a C library, with a small wrapper to use it as standalone. |
| 05:12.33 | tchuladdiass | Which is the same way that tcl is done, I think. |
| 05:12.46 | aloril | if you want to be sure, use HOL or Coq |
| 05:12.50 | cjb | tchuladdiass: since you're typing implemented so often, I feel compelled to point out how you're supposed to spell it. :) |
| 05:13.07 | tchuladdiass | :-) |
| 05:13.34 | tchuladdiass | I've got to emplemint a betr spll chekerr |
| 05:14.57 | noidd | hmm, the only problem with eating my wifes left-over pad thai is that she gets it with 1 extra spoon of spice. I eat it with 6 so its kinda bland |
| 05:15.21 | cying | and with that, back to work! |
| 05:15.35 | noidd | later mn |
| 05:15.37 | noidd | bed for me |
| 05:15.38 | noidd | seeya |
| 05:15.54 | tchuladdiass | So to summerize, everything that I've got in (or planed for) 2e, is mostly already done in lua. So I should either accept being an also-ran, or find ways to differentiate |
| 05:16.23 | tchuladdiass | Or just start putting out some neat apps, based in 2e, and others will follow from there. |
| 05:17.09 | noidd | remeber that there is a earning curve for learning a new language |
| 05:17.23 | tchuladdiass | I think I'm going to bed also, if anyone has any requests drop me a line via the sourceforge project page (or email me, dpressnall @ gmail.com |
| 05:17.25 | noidd | which means that the benefits you offer have to be worth that learning curve |
| 05:17.47 | tchuladdiass | I was hoping that my learning curve will be smaller than other languages. |
| 05:18.01 | tchuladdiass | but I'm too biased, so I will need to get other's opinion |
| 05:18.29 | tchuladdiass | But I'm willing to implEment anything that doesn't require a complete rewrite. |
| 05:18.31 | tchuladdiass | :-) |
| 05:20.20 | tchuladdiass | I just don't want the code to go to waste is all. |
| 05:20.40 | tchuladdiass | (but such is the nature of open source -- natural selection and all) |
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| 05:36.57 | aloril | variant: with battery powered USB hub you should be able to use any digital camera as mass storage (and using PTP too probably) |
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| 05:51.25 | CM | aloril: Good thinking on the wiki stuff (and take my pages ;) |
| 05:59.20 | cying_out | aloril: is the wiki up and running? |
| 05:59.42 | cying_out | aloril: i have some ideas... which i've sent to coreteam awhile back, but may post them more publicly later |
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| 06:08.21 | CM | cying_out: It really looks like "crying out" now.. My brain can't help it |
| 06:09.03 | aloril | cying_out: official wiki is running invisible to general net, unofficial is linked from topic |
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| 06:35.47 | CM | ttp://tieguy.org/blog/2007/01/22/i-want-linux-in-my-pocket-asap-kthxbye/ |
| 06:35.59 | CM | + h... |
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| 08:23.59 | zodttd | Quick question that has probably been heard too many times already...The "select developers" eligble for the initial wave of OpenMoko's: Is it "we come to you" or "you come to us" when it comes to how they pick developers? I work at a mobile game development studio, and also maintain some homebrew ports/emulators such as psx4all and PPC TTD. |
| 08:25.14 | zodttd | Hi hrw, a familar face. |
| 08:27.40 | hrw | http://www.hrw.one.pl/2007/01/23/free-your-phone/ |
| 08:27.42 | hrw | hi zodttd |
| 08:28.13 | hrw | zodttd: Notice to Developers If you are interested in developing Free Software applications for the OpenMoko platform, please send information regarding embedded Linux projects you have contributed to, and the work you have done to coreteam@openmoko.org. |
| 08:28.24 | hrw | zodttd: took from openmoko.com |
| 08:28.36 | zodttd | Thanks :) |
| 08:29.46 | zodttd | Good to see it running OE |
| 08:33.29 | hrw | yes |
| 08:33.41 | hrw | zodttd: any plans on adding psx4all etc into OE? |
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| 08:35.55 | zodttd | Well the psx4all project is currently on hold until some actual redesign of the entire source gets done> It was very sloppy and should be open sourced / public SVN type deal. |
| 08:36.32 | zodttd | But I am working with a person named Exophase on his gpSP GBA emulator. It's completely polished and well made. I can have it on anY Linux platform in a matter of hours. |
| 08:37.31 | zodttd | Well any Linux handheld that runs OE :) |
| 08:39.34 | zodttd | Im wondering what to do about the Zaurus. When I started doing psx4all on the GP2X (psx4gp2x) it would receive hundreds of replies to each thread of a new release in a matter of days. Not the case with the Zaurus, not much to "feed" off of. Any idea what platforms I should be looking at? ;) |
| 08:39.35 | loufoque | zodttd: and how would you play GBA games with the neo 1973 ? |
| 08:40.31 | zodttd | What's the button layout on the Neo 1973? It would need a d-pad and 4 buttons, or 3 if you need a modifier button of sorts. |
| 08:40.32 | hrw | zodttd: Zaurus world is split into few distros and this is a problem |
| 08:40.45 | hrw | zodttd: neo1973 has 2 button only |
| 08:40.48 | hrw | no d-pad even |
| 08:40.52 | loufoque | it has a touchscreen |
| 08:40.55 | zodttd | Yes, and the distros aren't very compatible |
| 08:41.11 | hrw | I have to go - time to be at work |
| 08:41.12 | hrw | cu |
| 08:41.12 | zodttd | Ah it is 2 + touchscreen. I could map regions |
| 08:41.15 | zodttd | Hmm |
| 08:41.20 | zodttd | later hrw |
| 08:43.20 | zodttd | loufoque: Hmm, for some reason I thought it had a dpad. That would make GBA a bit tough. I need to look at the specs as what I received must be false. To be honest, I don't think OpenMoko is an ideal platform for emulation. I wonder how a game like OpenTTD (Transport Tycoon Deluxe: openttd.org) or casual mobile games such as my 1 button games for Smartphones would be though |
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| 08:45.00 | loufoque | phones don't usually have d-pads, do they? |
| 08:45.21 | zodttd | Smartphones tend to. But they're not open source either. |
| 08:46.54 | zodttd | Also the Palm Treo's and Razr phones have a dpad of sorts as well. |
| 08:48.08 | zodttd | Hey pgas is here too. :) |
| 08:48.18 | pgas | hi |
| 08:48.40 | zodttd | pgas: How are things on your end going? |
| 08:49.09 | pgas | well, nowhere, I have been very busy these last months |
| 08:49.51 | zodttd | Busy is good sometimes. I have been too busy for side projects too. |
| 08:50.46 | pgas | yeah, my life is somehow more organized when I am busy :) |
| 08:50.57 | zodttd | I hear that! |
| 08:50.59 | zodttd | :) |
| 08:52.09 | zodttd | I was told about OpenMoko by someone in the GP2X community (GP2X is a "supposedly open source" gaming handheld by Gamepark Holdings) |
| 08:52.26 | zodttd | They said I needed to get one so I'm working at it :) |
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| 08:53.58 | guaqua | too busy channel, too much distraction. i'll have to check back later ;) cyas |
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| 08:54.05 | loufoque | developers actually get the phone for free. |
| 08:54.09 | loufoque | that's pretty nice. |
| 08:54.31 | zodttd | Yes, I agree. I don't know how strict they are at considering who is a developer though. |
| 08:55.29 | pgas | well, it's also a cheap way to have some developers working for you ;) |
| 08:56.28 | zodttd | I believe the Gizmondo uses the same SoC as the Neo1973. I remember trying to get WinCE 5.0 on it using the Samsung reference BSP. |
| 08:57.05 | zodttd | True pgas. Exactly why they're doing it. But it's good for both parties involved I suppose. :) |
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| 09:08.18 | zodttd | ttyl |
| 09:08.24 | zodttd | OESF if you need me :) |
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| 09:21.52 | sannes | 3333 |
| 09:21.56 | sannes | ops |
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| 10:11.54 | aloril | counter |
| 10:11.55 | aloril | source: 2 weeks, 4 days 11 hours, 48 minutes, 5 seconds; developer: 1 month, 2 weeks, 2 days 11 hours, 48 minutes, 5 seconds; mass market: 7 months, 2 weeks, 6 days 11 hours, 48 minutes, 5 seconds |
| 10:15.39 | *** join/#openmoko ValiSystM (n=ValiSyst@81.56.207.165) |
| 10:18.07 | xorAxAx | aloril: remove the seconds :) |
| 10:18.33 | *** join/#openmoko dneary (n=dneary@mne69-9-88-163-116-163.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 10:21.02 | aloril | hmm...maybe replace second occurance of "11 hours, 48 minutes, 5 seconds" with '-"-' |
| 10:26.54 | Tv | pfft, precision without accuracy |
| 10:27.01 | Tv | you don't know the exact time |
| 10:29.42 | aloril | hmm.. yeah, could assume latest time for that date |
| 10:30.36 | Tv | just count the days |
| 10:30.40 | Tv | much more meaningful to humans |
| 10:31.05 | Tv | your whole line of gibberish can be replaced with "X days for devs, Y days for mass market" |
| 10:31.19 | CM | Days go by way to fast anyway.. |
| 10:31.21 | Tv | and that would be readable, more easily comprehensible, and more helpful |
| 10:31.43 | CM | At least feels like that when you have a deadline coming.. |
| 10:31.58 | hrw|work | X for first devs, Y for devs, Z for users |
| 10:33.35 | aloril | hrw|work: well.. it is source for everybody: for most it is that ;-) |
| 10:34.12 | aloril | ok, now it should be just days |
| 10:35.24 | aloril | (it should work with 2 different channel messages: "counter" and "aloril: counter") |
| 10:43.55 | Tv | aloril: counter |
| 10:44.00 | Tv | mwahaha ;) |
| 10:44.50 | aloril | 2 weeks, 4 days for source; 1 month, 2 weeks, 2 days for developers; 7 months, 2 weeks, 6 days for mass market |
| 10:44.52 | aloril | ;-) |
| 10:45.30 | aloril | this is cyborg after all, so it can parse a bit more complex stuff too, though more slowly |
| 10:45.38 | xorAxAx | <PROTECTED> |
| 10:45.40 | xorAxAx | oops |
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| 11:40.41 | plaes | xkr47: sweet :D:D |
| 11:41.16 | XorA | xkr47: :-D |
| 11:49.14 | CM | xkr47: Hehe |
| 11:49.39 | XorA | xkr47: I get the feeling you are itching for a phone |
| 11:55.53 | *** join/#openmoko jwatt (n=roslea@213.78.254.61) |
| 12:03.17 | CM | "Why I Want a Locked IPhone" - http://www.wired.com/news/columns/0,72544-0.html |
| 12:04.47 | *** join/#openmoko Ryushin (i=proxy@windwalker.openinnovations.com) |
| 12:06.56 | dottedmag | CM: well, then Apple did everything right, except mentioning that iPhone uses OSX. |
| 12:07.48 | CM | dottedmag: And the price. It's just way too high |
| 12:08.30 | CM | I like the "Free your phone" idea a lot more.. ;) |
| 12:08.44 | dottedmag | Yep. We are just not in target audience of iPhone ;) |
| 12:10.42 | CM | One thing is true though. A normal user wouldn't be happy if a software update of the phone broke all input or so. I'm guessing there will be a lot of polishing done before the real release in September |
| 12:11.12 | CM | And some disclaimer against installing "uncertified" software or so |
| 12:11.43 | dottedmag | disclaimers should be printed and included in the box. |
| 12:11.54 | dottedmag | I hate this "disclaimer" in nokia770's application manager. |
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| 12:16.26 | *** join/#openmoko florian_ (n=fuchs@dns.kernelconcepts.de) |
| 12:17.32 | florian | hi all |
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| 13:14.23 | l3010o | can anyone tell me more about "free your phone"? |
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| 13:16.10 | aloril | what do you want to know? |
| 13:16.30 | l3010o | anything interest=) just a newbie here |
| 13:16.33 | l3010o | interesting |
| 13:16.59 | hrw|work | l3010o: http://www.hrw.one.pl/2007/01/23/free-your-phone/ |
| 13:17.43 | l3010o | hrw|work: let me see |
| 13:17.46 | pgas | http://www.fsf.org/ |
| 13:21.13 | l3010o | hrw|work: wow~ is that your blog? |
| 13:21.43 | hrw|work | yes |
| 13:22.14 | l3010o | so..how to be one of the developers? |
| 13:24.51 | marcellus | Develop. |
| 13:25.18 | CM | l3010o: As marcellus said, a proven record of contributions |
| 13:25.46 | l3010o | contributions to openmoko? |
| 13:25.47 | CM | Or you'll have to do like a slacker like me and wait until March 11th and buy the phone with a dev-kit |
| 13:26.18 | CM | No, to some relevant project. Embedded or gtk or so :) |
| 13:26.43 | CM | I'm a nobody though, so don't trust my words on everything :P |
| 13:26.49 | friedel | marcellus: Hi. Any openmoko specific stuff in cvs/ svn somewhere already? |
| 13:27.09 | CM | friedel: Not yet, it will be released in February |
| 13:27.14 | marcellus | I wouldn't know since I am not one of the developers. |
| 13:27.39 | friedel | Anybody in here interested in localisation of the openmoko? |
| 13:27.49 | friedel | That is my main area of interested. |
| 13:27.52 | friedel | *interest |
| 13:28.18 | l3010o | CM: I am just a linux noob though |
| 13:28.20 | CM | Why not, I don't mind translating some :-) |
| 13:28.41 | friedel | CM, of course, but nothing is in place yet. |
| 13:28.48 | l3010o | i wish openmoko would have a traditional chinese version |
| 13:28.52 | friedel | That is why I'm wondering if any apps are in versioncontrol yet. |
| 13:28.52 | CM | l3010o: Then I suggest waiting for the dev-kit version of the phone in March. |
| 13:28.57 | l3010o | as i m a Hong Kong-er =) |
| 13:29.32 | l3010o | CM: that is for general users? or just a tester? |
| 13:29.44 | CM | That's for interested developer |
| 13:29.57 | CM | Read the announcement in the topic |
| 13:30.12 | CM | aloril: counter |
| 13:30.12 | aloril | 2 weeks, 4 days for source; 1 month, 2 weeks, 2 days for developers; 7 months, 2 weeks, 6 days for mass market |
| 13:30.44 | Eblis | the CPU is unknown at this point, right ? |
| 13:31.07 | CM | l3010o: Unfortnately OpenEmbedded.org seems to have lost their dns right now, otherwise that's a good place to start and to get familiar with bitbake and such |
| 13:31.27 | CM | No, all is known, see the announcement in the topic |
| 13:31.59 | *** join/#openmoko gw280 (n=george@vm.gwright.org.uk) |
| 13:32.09 | Eblis | aha, thanks |
| 13:32.15 | Eblis | missed the info related to the cpu :) |
| 13:32.29 | CM | Samsung s3c2410 SoC @ 266 MHz :) |
| 13:32.48 | Eblis | yes, i noticed the line after you redirected me :) |
| 13:32.50 | Eblis | thanks |
| 13:33.09 | CM | You're welcome :) |
| 13:33.45 | l3010o | CM: yes cant connect to openembedded.org, just viewing it in google cache |
| 13:34.10 | CM | l3010o: Yes, their DNS failed today for some reason |
| 13:34.33 | CM | l3010o: I'm sure it will be back up soon |
| 13:35.40 | friedel | Anybody know whether there is / will be an emulator or similar to use before the Neo is available? |
| 13:36.01 | Eblis | the unofficial wiki has some info on that :) |
| 13:36.14 | CM | Yes, either a qemu arm emulator or for gui Xoo/Xephyr |
| 13:36.55 | letoto | seems openmoko got a lot more momentum then greenphone when they were in this 'almost release' stage |
| 13:37.06 | letoto | at least on irc :) |
| 13:37.10 | CM | I'd say because it's truly open |
| 13:37.10 | xorAxAx | maybe because its more open? |
| 13:37.27 | xorAxAx | at least its not completly open either |
| 13:37.42 | letoto | is it more open? |
| 13:37.48 | letoto | i guess for non-gpl stuff it is |
| 13:37.52 | xorAxAx | because 50% of it is closed -- the hardware design :) |
| 13:38.10 | letoto | as long as you get opensource drivers |
| 13:38.23 | letoto | i am assuming the neo wont give you access to the core fcc approved stuff either :P |
| 13:38.26 | CM | It's cheape, has gps and a nicer screen |
| 13:38.30 | letoto | or else it wouldnt get fcc approved :P |
| 13:38.37 | CM | s/cheape/cheaper/ |
| 13:38.38 | xorAxAx | letoto: no, thats wrong |
| 13:38.54 | xorAxAx | letoto: e.g. with my wlan card, i just have to patch my driver to get all channels |
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| 13:39.27 | xorAxAx | letoto: so it depends if the card is limited to a specific region or should be sold world wide in my example |
| 13:40.17 | Eblis | it seems that the phone is quadband so it should work all over the world |
| 13:40.35 | l3010o | does openmoko support unicode? |
| 13:41.08 | letoto | xorAxAx: the usual design is a dual cpu. one cpu for fcc stuff, one cpu for OS, connected with some virtual serial port |
| 13:42.22 | l3010o | aloril: counter |
| 13:42.22 | aloril | 2 weeks, 4 days for source; 1 month, 2 weeks, 2 days for developers; 7 months, 2 weeks, 6 days for mass market |
| 13:43.12 | xorAxAx | letoto: yes, but it depends ... if you need to configure the radio in the us differently but want to ship the same hardware everywhere and the drivers are open source, then you can break the fcc allowance |
| 13:45.02 | aloril | openembedded.org works for me |
| 13:46.17 | aloril | I think greenphone was quite closed back then (qtopia was closed I think, not anymore though) |
| 13:46.17 | Eblis | still doesn't work here |
| 13:46.44 | aloril | also neo1973 offers twice of some features for 1/2 price |
| 13:47.58 | aloril | http://openembedded.org/ redirects to http://www.openembedded.org/ |
| 13:48.37 | friedel | l3010o: I'm still new here, but if it is based on GTK+, I am quite sure it will support unicode. |
| 13:48.52 | hrw|work | friedel: there is code in svn repository. But repo is closed for non-coreteam developers. |
| 13:49.29 | hrw|work | there is work on getting Japanese input methods in GTK/X11 world so neo1973 will get it |
| 13:49.33 | Eblis | aloril: what's the ip ? i'll try it that way |
| 13:49.35 | l3010o | friedel: so it should be possible for me to input chinese characters? coz it's painful to type chinese under linux |
| 13:50.13 | aloril | I think its unmodified or mostly unmodified gtk 2.6.10 (might be wrong about "unmodified") |
| 13:50.17 | hrw|work | l3010o: do you know some chinese inputmethods which can be used on touchscreens? if yes then start contribute to OE? |
| 13:50.23 | friedel | l3010o: I'm not the one that should be answering here :-) but I think that text input has not been finalised in any way. |
| 13:50.30 | friedel | l3010o: Do you know dasher? |
| 13:50.47 | hrw|work | 2.6.10 with some patches related to touchscreen usage (one mouse button) and few handhelds related ones |
| 13:50.52 | aloril | Eblis: 85.214.40.226 (but that loads different site) |
| 13:51.03 | l3010o | hrw|work: thx |
| 13:51.09 | aloril | (linuxtogo.org) |
| 13:51.44 | Eblis | aha, i guess i'll just have to wait for the dns servers to update here as well |
| 13:51.56 | l3010o | hrw|work i know those input methods, but never see it appears on linux |
| 13:52.32 | l3010o | friedel: i dont know dasher |
| 13:52.50 | XorA | Eblis: enter 85.214.40.226 www.openembedded.org into your /etc/hosts file |
| 13:53.17 | l3010o | friedel: do you mean the dasher project? |
| 13:53.34 | friedel | l3010o: Yes. Dasher is one of the text input methods that I guess is considered. See http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher/Chinese.html |
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| 13:53.56 | Eblis | XorA: i'm on windows :) |
| 13:54.10 | XorA | c:\windows\system32\drivers\etc then |
| 13:54.13 | l3010o | friedel: just googled it =) anyway, thx, i'm reading it |
| 13:57.00 | *** join/#openmoko so_solid_moo (n=nmoo@barney.alcoholicsunanimous.com) |
| 13:59.21 | l3010o | connected to openembedded.org :) |
| 13:59.52 | l3010o | but hving a slow connection, i guess the backbone near Taiwan hasn't yet been fixed |
| 14:00.05 | *** join/#openmoko prpplague (n=dave@65.71.224.163) |
| 14:02.31 | *** join/#openmoko b_lindeijer (n=bjorn@lindeijer.xs4all.nl) |
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| 14:17.16 | rboehme | re: openembedded, do I develop my app in only C, or can I use c++ or another language? In other words, what languages are supported? |
| 14:19.27 | prpplague | rboehme: OE is simply a method to automate builds, it doesn't care what the application is or what it is written in |
| 14:20.19 | aloril | you can use other languages, though you might need to install additional libraries depending on language |
| 14:20.45 | rboehme | ah, ok. What exactly is the function of bitbake in all of this? |
| 14:22.06 | prpplague | rboehme: as to the guts of OE you would probably get better results asking in #oe |
| 14:22.49 | rboehme | thanks |
| 14:23.07 | XorA | bitbake is the task executer that makes the tasks in OE happen |
| 14:23.20 | XorA | think of bitbmake as make, OE and Makefile |
| 14:23.28 | XorA | OE as Makefile |
| 14:24.40 | aloril | rboehme: another way to think is that OpenMoKo is 'just' another Linux distribution which includes by default quite limited amount of software (at most 64MiB) |
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| 14:27.54 | *** join/#openmoko ninHer (n=ninHer@unaffiliated/ninher) |
| 14:28.24 | hrw|work | aloril: s/by default/in installation image/ |
| 14:32.01 | xkr47 | XorA, that might be very true ;-) |
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| 14:42.09 | CM | mickeyl: http://www.burtonini.com/blog/computers/lemonade-2007-01-23-13-10 |
| 14:42.14 | *** join/#openmoko alphaone (n=daniel@2001:638:602:af01:205:4eff:fe4e:2c0) |
| 14:43.32 | *** join/#openmoko zecke (n=ich@dsl-62-220-14-162.berlikomm.net) |
| 14:43.57 | zecke | wow, a crowded channel |
| 14:44.11 | CM | Morning ;) |
| 14:44.20 | Eblis_ | morning ? where :P |
| 14:44.36 | CM | ~ugt |
| 14:44.46 | apt | rumour has it, ugt is Universial Greeting Time. Created in #mipslinux, it is a rule that states that whenever somebody enters an IRC channel it is always morning, and it is always late when the person leaves. The local time of any other people in the channel, including the greeter, is irrelevant. http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html |
| 14:45.07 | Eblis | heh |
| 14:45.48 | skome | speaking of crowded irc channels...is there a bitchx/ircii command to suppress the join/signoff messages? |
| 14:45.59 | hrw|work | hi zecke |
| 14:46.16 | skome | I tried /fset join , which blanks them, but prints a newline |
| 14:47.13 | skome | <PROTECTED> |
| 14:49.22 | *** join/#openmoko srikantux (n=sri@59.92.138.108) |
| 14:55.09 | Eblis | :( dns servers stil haven't been updated here |
| 14:57.58 | *** join/#openmoko esden (n=esden@repl.esden.net) |
| 15:05.27 | xkr47 | man, those pixels go away fast :) |
| 15:06.36 | *** join/#openmoko fr500 (n=andres@201.219.12.12) |
| 15:06.55 | *** join/#openmoko Mr_Lurrrrr (n=4ng3l@200.110.71.10) |
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| 15:10.16 | TRIsoft | hi zecke :-) |
| 15:10.46 | *** join/#openmoko edwardocallaghan (n=edward@host86-143-80-55.range86-143.btcentralplus.com) |
| 15:11.57 | noidd | bleugh |
| 15:15.38 | hrw|work | prpplague: hi |
| 15:16.56 | noidd | sungard is hireing |
| 15:17.10 | noidd | I'm going to apply to a Sr UNIX sysadmin position I think |
| 15:17.19 | noidd | nice and low maintainence |
| 15:19.16 | prpplague | hrw|work: greetings |
| 15:19.17 | *** join/#openmoko apakatt (n=apakatt@89.207.216.81.static.j.siw.siwnet.net) |
| 15:19.39 | prpplague | hrw|work: still hacking away at the 88w8385 stuff |
| 15:20.05 | prpplague | hrw|work: got the cf version working pretty well under our legacy 2.4 stuff |
| 15:20.46 | fr500 | where can i download an image to test with qemu? |
| 15:22.32 | *** join/#openmoko etf|work_away (n=etf|work@82-71-36-214.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) |
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| 15:24.39 | CM | fr500: Wait 2-3 weeks :) |
| 15:24.49 | fr500 | CM: |
| 15:24.50 | fr500 | ok |
| 15:24.57 | CM | counter |
| 15:24.57 | aloril | 2 weeks, 4 days for source; 1 month, 2 weeks, 2 days for developers; 7 months, 2 weeks, 6 days for mass market |
| 15:26.36 | *** join/#openmoko emonkey (n=emonkey@160.85.34.32) |
| 15:29.50 | *** join/#openmoko jono (n=jono@ubuntu/member/jono) |
| 15:29.51 | jono | hi all |
| 15:29.59 | jono | any official developers here? |
| 15:30.08 | *** join/#openmoko andr34s (i=andrerav@gaupe.stud.ntnu.no) |
| 15:30.41 | SpeedEvil | Signal the fleet to jump to pudding condition. |
| 15:30.43 | SpeedEvil | oops |
| 15:30.47 | jono | mickeyl: ping! |
| 15:31.12 | jono | mickeyl: want to come on LUGRadio an interview tomorrow night? |
| 15:31.38 | CM | ~seen mickyl |
| 15:31.56 | apt | CM: i haven't seen 'mickyl' |
| 15:32.04 | CM | ~seen mickeyl |
| 15:32.07 | apt | mickeyl is currently on #oe #openmoko #openezx. Has said a total of 948 messages. Is idling for 2h 9m 41s, last said: '~bon appetit'. |
| 15:33.01 | xorAxAx | ~seen XorA |
| 15:33.03 | apt | xora is currently on #gpe #oe #openmoko #openzaurus. Has said a total of 136 messages. Is idling for 1h 9m 35s, last said: 'OE as Makefile'. |
| 15:33.03 | xorAxAx | ~seen xorAxAx |
| 15:33.06 | apt | xoraxax is currently on #openmoko. Has said a total of 509 messages. Is idling for 3s, last said: '~seen xorAxAx '. |
| 15:33.20 | b_lindeijer | So this open mobile phone project is closed for now? |
| 15:33.20 | XorA | I is here |
| 15:33.29 | xorAxAx | XorA: yes, incorrect use of tab key :) |
| 15:33.44 | CM | b_lindeijer: No, just not open yet. Too early |
| 15:33.52 | b_lindeijer | Alright. |
| 15:34.05 | CM | But soon.. The code should be availible on Feb 11th |
| 15:34.13 | b_lindeijer | I'll be reading the announcements list. :) |
| 15:35.16 | CM | jono: Great podcasts btw, I hope you get mickeyl on. :) |
| 15:36.20 | hrw|work | prpplague: got my mail? |
| 15:36.38 | CM | ~seen LaF0rge |
| 15:36.43 | apt | laf0rge is currently on #openmoko. Has said a total of 31 messages. Is idling for 4d 15h 26m 47s, last said: 'mh.'. |
| 15:39.33 | jono | CM: thanks :) |
| 15:39.35 | prpplague | hrw|work: hmm, guess not |
| 15:39.47 | jono | CM: I hope we can get mickeyl too |
| 15:40.10 | CM | LaF0rge is Harald Welte, also dev, but busy guy.. |
| 15:40.28 | prpplague | hrw|work: hmm, don't see any mail from you |
| 15:40.28 | *** part/#openmoko sid (n=unstable@tor/regular/sid) |
| 15:43.18 | hrw|work | prpplague: I send to mail which you use on LTG |
| 15:46.19 | *** part/#openmoko edwardocallaghan (n=edward@host86-143-80-55.range86-143.btcentralplus.com) |
| 15:46.36 | prpplague | hrw|work: odd, didn't see it, either the spam filter got it or i trashed it by mistake |
| 15:46.57 | *** join/#openmoko jtoy (n=jtoy@cust-206-40-173-221.bos-static.gis.net) |
| 15:50.33 | tchuladdiass | Hi all, just wanted to verify... if I wanted to get started developing for the openmoko, since the code isn't released yet I should target gtk development, correct? Then the code should be easily portable? |
| 15:51.26 | WillySilly | yeah |
| 15:52.28 | CM | tchuladdiass: Yes. Also, take a look at openembedded.org, except that their dns is down right now |
| 15:53.22 | l4rs | tchuladdiass: openmoko adds an api ontop of gtk, so i bet you would have rewrite some parts to have a nice integration into openmokoenvironment |
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| 15:54.42 | l4rs | i would do some prototyping and than wait a few days... |
| 15:54.43 | tchuladdiass | What I'm initially going to do is write up a set of gtk bindings for a small interpreter I've put together. Any idea where I can get a list of which bindings to initially target? so I do it in the best order. |
| 15:55.27 | tchuladdiass | (if I write the bindings in top to bottom order, then I'd get some least used ones before implementing more used bindings) |
| 15:55.44 | tchuladdiass | I'd like to get to an alpha / beta status as quickly as possible. |
| 15:56.39 | hrw|work | tchuladdiass: openmoko use gtk 2.6.10 |
| 15:56.56 | hrw|work | tchuladdiass: and add some own widgets to gtk |
| 16:03.44 | tchuladdiass | How much of the gtk widget set is used? And will there be style guidelines that guide app developers to a specific widget subset? |
| 16:08.26 | l4rs | there isn't anythink offical on that yet, i think |
| 16:08.55 | *** join/#openmoko chrustinho (n=christop@p57B00B8A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 16:09.13 | hrw|work | tchuladdiass: I do not know details, but as I know from other OE projects gtk is not stripped from functionality (other then the fact that touchscreen == one button mouse) |
| 16:10.12 | mickeyl | jono: sure, why not. depends on the actual time though. I'm located in germany, CET |
| 16:10.24 | mickeyl | tchuladdiass: widgets i've used in OpenMoko |
| 16:10.28 | mickeyl | GtkWidget |
| 16:10.30 | mickeyl | GtkVBox |
| 16:10.30 | skome | hrw|wrk: Do you know/expect that the touchscreen will effect an n-button mouse once multitouch is available. Or is there a better approach? |
| 16:10.32 | mickeyl | GtkHBox |
| 16:10.34 | mickeyl | GtkAlignment |
| 16:10.38 | mickeyl | GtkFixed |
| 16:10.40 | mickeyl | GtkComboBox |
| 16:10.43 | mickeyl | GtkTreeView |
| 16:10.50 | mickeyl | GtkCheckButton |
| 16:10.53 | mickeyl | GtkRadioButton |
| 16:10.57 | mickeyl | GtkEntry |
| 16:11.01 | aloril | ~seen aloril |
| 16:11.10 | apt | aloril is currently on #oe (23h 9m) #openmoko (23h 9m). Has said a total of 83 messages. Is idling for 9s, last said: '~seen aloril'. |
| 16:11.10 | mickeyl | GtkButton |
| 16:11.16 | mickeyl | GtkWindow |
| 16:11.26 | mickeyl | that's about all I can remember offhand |
| 16:11.32 | hrw|work | skome: touchscreen in neo is not multitouch capable |
| 16:11.41 | tchuladdiass | Thanks. That should help a lot. |
| 16:11.53 | skome | Right, but it will be at some point, yes? |
| 16:12.26 | skome | I understand that this rev. doesn't have the hardware |
| 16:12.26 | slowcoder | skome: There might be patent issues with that |
| 16:12.38 | tchuladdiass | I think what I'll do is go through a gtk tutorial, and create bindings in the order that some tutorials present them in, that way I can have a working beta bindings quickly. |
| 16:12.40 | skome | I highly doubt that |
| 16:13.21 | slowcoder | skome: How come you're doubting it? |
| 16:13.33 | SpeedEvil | There are stupid patents out there. There are for example ones on colour control of LEDs by computer. |
| 16:13.49 | aloril | slowcoder: I think multitouch is old idea, I might be wrong though |
| 16:13.51 | skome | I'm no expert, but I've a) searched for the patent, and b) know that multitouch has been demonstrated in various products for years |
| 16:13.54 | SpeedEvil | IOW, mixing RGB to make colours of light. |
| 16:14.07 | SpeedEvil | (Color kinetics) |
| 16:15.12 | slowcoder | aloril: True, but it all comes down to who patents and makes a product out of it first.. "Prior art" only applies to commercially available products, not something thought up in a lab |
| 16:15.18 | skome | I'm just curious about gtk and multitouch. I can go read about it. |
| 16:16.57 | *** join/#openmoko buz (n=buz@80-218-148-33.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 16:18.50 | xorAxAx | ~seen LaF0rge |
| 16:18.56 | apt | laf0rge is currently on #openmoko. Has said a total of 31 messages. Is idling for 4d 16h 9m, last said: 'mh.'. |
| 16:19.02 | xorAxAx | wow, 31 :) |
| 16:20.05 | cying_out | aloril: did you see the fingerworks article on multitouch? |
| 16:21.05 | Odin-LAP | Patents should be abolished... |
| 16:21.43 | Odin-LAP | (And copyright rethought from basic principles. But that's another issue.) |
| 16:21.52 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@9.80-202-160.nextgentel.com) |
| 16:22.08 | slowcoder | Odin-LAP: Patents have their place, but the current system is badly broken |
| 16:22.42 | Odin-LAP | slowcoder: What place? |
| 16:23.12 | Odin-LAP | And don't give me crap about pharmaceuticals. That's the field where patents are doing the MOST harm. |
| 16:23.23 | slowcoder | Odin-LAP: To make sure companies that put massive amounts of money into R&D actually have a chance to recoup that money.. |
| 16:24.07 | slowcoder | Odin-LAP: They're also making the most use there.. But having 20year patents for pharmaceuticals should be criminal, that I agree with |
| 16:24.49 | Odin-LAP | slowcoder: Ah, so you believe a free market is incapable of doing that? Good, then we agree on something. |
| 16:25.24 | Odin-LAP | slowcoder: Most use? What do you mean? Do you mean that patents are being used the most in pharmaceuticals, or that they are most useful in pharmaceuticals? |
| 16:25.27 | *** join/#openmoko terrex (n=terrex@84-122-63-17.onocable.ono.com) |
| 16:27.02 | slowcoder | They're most useful.. Since the pharmaceutical industry is privately owned, and R&D in that field is crazy expensive. Allowing them to have a 4year (for example) patent would give them a chance to recoup their investment. After all, they're in it for the money. If there wasn't money in it, there wouldn't be progress in the field |
| 16:27.24 | cying | plus pharma doesn't change as quickly as tech |
| 16:27.28 | Odin-LAP | slowcoder: How can they be simultaneously most useful and most harmful? |
| 16:27.29 | slowcoder | But 20year patents are just ludicrous (sp?) |
| 16:27.36 | cying | if it were up to me, i'd reduce time on tech patents only |
| 16:27.50 | Odin-LAP | cying: No, but it does involve stupid, unneeded duplication of effort. |
| 16:28.58 | cying | Odin-LAP: but there's a valid point that says without the patents, people might not invest the money to bother going through with the effort at all |
| 16:28.58 | slowcoder | Odin-LAP: Because after a while (usually just a few years) they've gotten the return on their investment, and everything from there on is pure profit on the behalf of the disadvantaged people in the world. That's when it's really harmful |
| 16:29.58 | *** join/#openmoko ozamosi (n=ozamosi@85.8.9.80.se.wasadata.net) |
| 16:39.58 | jono | mickeyl: ok, so you good to do it? |
| 16:40.19 | mickeyl | jono: i think i'm entitled to do it, yes |
| 16:40.37 | jono | mickeyl: ok, can we interview you at around 10pm CET? |
| 16:41.12 | mickeyl | jono: yes, that'd work |
| 16:41.31 | jono | mickeyl: mail jono AT jonobacon DOT org with a landline to call you on |
| 16:41.57 | *** join/#openmoko Ryushin (i=proxy@windwalker.openinnovations.com) |
| 16:42.08 | aloril | slowcoder: umm.. I think if ideas has been published -> unpatentable |
| 16:42.12 | mickeyl | jono: done |
| 16:42.20 | jono | thanks :) |
| 16:42.24 | jono | speak to you tomorrow :) |
| 16:42.39 | mickeyl | yeah |
| 16:44.06 | aloril | cying: http://www.fingerworks.com/ ? |
| 16:44.29 | tchuladdiass | alori: didn't apple buy fingerworks? |
| 16:45.05 | aloril | slowcoder: I think prize reward model is better (for highly successful examples see X-Prize, Darpa races) |
| 16:45.46 | aloril | tchuladdiass: ah, I remember it buying some multitouch related business |
| 16:45.50 | cying | yes |
| 16:45.55 | cying | i need to find the article |
| 16:46.03 | cying | Wayne Westerman and John Elias both joined Apple |
| 16:48.03 | aloril | slowcoder: when you can copy field, putting up fences doesn't make much sense ;-) |
| 16:48.07 | cying | aloril: http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/22/some-iphone-touchscreen-roots-splained-by-fingerworks-inventors/#comments |
| 16:48.33 | aloril | slowcoder: however encouraging people to find new different style fields by prize money does make sense especially because it benefits everybody then |
| 16:51.26 | aloril | cying: thanks |
| 16:52.18 | cying | aloril: *nod* i wonder how different the hw is and when it might be available elsewhere |
| 16:52.20 | aloril | slowcoder: something is seriously wrong when scientists have stopped sharing discoveries .. |
| 16:52.40 | *** part/#openmoko jono (n=jono@ubuntu/member/jono) |
| 16:54.53 | tchuladdiass | Speaking of patented input methods, I'd realy like to see quickwriting done on the openmoko (i've used qwikscript for the Zaurus before). It is patented, but the author seems to allow free implementations. |
| 16:56.14 | slowcoder | sorry, had to do something else for a bit.. |
| 16:57.23 | slowcoder | aloril: I agree about the part about scientists stopping sharing discoveries.. |
| 16:58.11 | slowcoder | I think we can agree that patents in their current form are _bad_ |
| 16:58.43 | mikesh | tchuladdiass: looks very interesting |
| 17:00.00 | *** join/#openmoko ryanl (n=ryanl@host-69-144-196-50.bzm-mt.client.bresnan.net) |
| 17:00.12 | *** part/#openmoko letoto (n=paul@tla.xelerance.com) |
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| 17:01.09 | tchuladdiass | I think that all that would be required is to get a signoff from the quickwriting guy. Esp. if it is an opensource version. |
| 17:01.51 | tchuladdiass | But I don't know if it will be gpl compatible or not (i'm assuming they may want royalties if it is shipped with the device, but i could be wrong) |
| 17:02.05 | tchuladdiass | but worth checking out at least. |
| 17:03.29 | *** join/#openmoko tr2x (n=alvar@80-218-185-55.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 17:04.03 | aloril | here is radical thought (at the moment): maybe copyrights and patents are seen in future in similar light to slavery now |
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| 17:13.03 | Stelz | gigi |
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| 17:19.04 | dw_swe | Hello, status of fm-radio in Neo? Planned for next revision if not in this one? Google would not tell me anything relevant. |
| 17:19.51 | cying | ahhh |
| 17:19.52 | cying | good question |
| 17:20.01 | cying | an fm-radio would be brilliant |
| 17:20.20 | dw_swe | Yea, i use it all the time now in my nokia. |
| 17:20.58 | cying | yea |
| 17:21.07 | dw_swe | Sure one could use podcasts, but radio chips are small! |
| 17:21.10 | cying | it's a very popular requested feature among myspace demographic |
| 17:21.17 | dw_swe | And realtime =) |
| 17:21.19 | cying | from the research i've read |
| 17:21.32 | cying | and you know that Apple won't go that route |
| 17:21.41 | SpeedEvil | It's not the size of the chip which is the sole problem. |
| 17:21.50 | aloril | USB radio? |
| 17:21.52 | SpeedEvil | The much harder problem for FM radio is noise. |
| 17:21.53 | dw_swe | Iphone wont have radio? |
| 17:22.11 | dw_swe | Humm like the blipp blop of gsm? |
| 17:22.13 | cying | dw_swe: fm_tuner on the headphone |
| 17:22.19 | SpeedEvil | As containing the noise from a small computer that you're in the same case with is really quite hard. |
| 17:22.31 | dw_swe | True.. |
| 17:22.58 | dw_swe | But then you need an extra battery on the headphones |
| 17:23.01 | *** join/#openmoko Woland_ (n=lucifer@83.219.15.25) |
| 17:23.07 | Woland_ | £-ĶĻ£... |
| 17:23.09 | Woland_ | heil |
| 17:23.37 | dw_swe | Humm.. yes, emulate soundcard ower usb with radio connected. |
| 17:23.39 | SpeedEvil | You've got dozens of signals at around a hundred megahertz and a volt or so switching constantly, and you're trying to pick up a signal at a thousandth of this. |
| 17:23.53 | xorAxAx | cying: it would be so brilliant that it would cause people to pay a monthly fee in germany |
| 17:24.12 | xorAxAx | cying: if they didnt have a pc or radio yet :) |
| 17:24.15 | cying | xorAxAx: wow |
| 17:24.25 | dw_swe | Yes, but it has been done before =) |
| 17:25.04 | SpeedEvil | I would like it if it was possible to make 'clip-ons' to the top or bottom - which are segments of a circle that clip onto the top, and make it taller, but the same shape, and add stuff. |
| 17:25.15 | cying | but if you could record radio like a tivo, wouldn't that be a fun OSS? |
| 17:25.32 | cying | dw_swe: you know you'd want one of those |
| 17:25.43 | dw_swe | cying: YES |
| 17:26.53 | dw_swe | Someone sugested that in mail-list, set time of recording and such, but then u could use podcasts too.. |
| 17:27.24 | cying | but i would have to get the podcasts into the phone somehow |
| 17:27.48 | dw_swe | Battery of my nokia 6230 lasts about two full days listening to radio and som calls. |
| 17:27.49 | cying | mobile IP not as free as desktop IP |
| 17:27.56 | SpeedEvil | If only wi-fi had supplied some means of micropayment for virtual tunnels as standard. |
| 17:28.06 | cying | dw_swe: but you'd be compressing the radio stream into mp3 |
| 17:28.36 | cying | SpeedEvil: even then it would take a few years to propagate |
| 17:28.48 | SpeedEvil | In the initial standard. |
| 17:28.54 | dw_swe | cying: BT pan around computer. |
| 17:29.24 | Woland_ | how long battery life from charge to charge have been announced? |
| 17:29.26 | dw_swe | or thrue usb while syncing calendar |
| 17:29.39 | SpeedEvil | Woland: no |
| 17:29.48 | SpeedEvil | Woland: not yet at least. |
| 17:29.51 | Woland | SpeedEvil: what no? |
| 17:30.04 | Woland | SpeedEvil: there was no information about it? |
| 17:30.11 | SpeedEvil | There is no announcement yet |
| 17:30.24 | Woland | ok |
| 17:30.35 | SpeedEvil | I suspect they can only give a good number when they have the first set of hardware built. |
| 17:30.48 | SpeedEvil | Production hardware - well - first dev production. |
| 17:30.51 | cying | dw_swe: i think there are companies working on it, e.g. radioshark |
| 17:31.00 | cying | dw_swe: if you do a PAN or a USB module |
| 17:31.28 | dw_swe | Automatic recording in computer and then auto download to random mp3-player? |
| 17:31.51 | cying | dw_swe: yea, that's radioshark |
| 17:32.25 | dw_swe | Sounds nice.. |
| 17:32.27 | Woland | SpeedEvil: when they promise to release? |
| 17:32.48 | cying | dw_swe: they're building an HD version, the non HD one was 63 bucks |
| 17:32.50 | SpeedEvil | Well, logically at the same time the first dev kits go out. |
| 17:33.20 | dw_swe | Swedish national radio, the one i liste to has podcasts of almost all the shows i listen to. |
| 17:33.22 | Woland | SpeedEvil: when it will be? |
| 17:33.52 | cying | i can optimize ARM assembly! |
| 17:33.54 | SpeedEvil | 1 month or so |
| 17:34.01 | stefan_schmidt | Woland: Please read the links in the topic |
| 17:34.07 | Woland | stefan_schmidt: ok |
| 17:34.17 | stefan_schmidt | Woland: thanks |
| 17:34.31 | aloril | counter |
| 17:34.31 | aloril | 2 weeks, 4 days for source; 1 month, 2 weeks, 2 days for developers; 7 months, 2 weeks, 6 days for mass market |
| 17:34.57 | SpeedEvil | Has there been any discussion of how 'locked in' phones will work? |
| 17:35.10 | SpeedEvil | Or will the phone only be available SIM-free? |
| 17:35.20 | stefan_schmidt | SIM-free |
| 17:35.59 | Woland | how it may be locked if it's "open"? |
| 17:36.09 | SpeedEvil | The GSM bit isn't open. |
| 17:36.25 | SpeedEvil | You can't do 'interesting' stuff with it - so it can be locked. |
| 17:36.39 | SpeedEvil | You can make/recieve calls, but not work the radio directly. |
| 17:36.51 | aloril | counter |
| 17:36.51 | aloril | 2 weeks, 4 days for source for all and devices for selected developers; 1 month, 2 weeks, 2 days for any developers; 7 months, 2 weeks, 6 days for mass market |
| 17:36.58 | Woland | SpeedEvil: sux |
| 17:37.00 | SpeedEvil | So in principle the GSM bit could be locked to one provider. |
| 17:37.11 | SpeedEvil | And they could subsidise the phone. |
| 17:37.49 | tchuladdiass | SpeedEvil: Another way of looking at it is as if you had a PDA with a gsm cf card installed |
| 17:37.51 | stefan_schmidt | SpeedEvil: That is a question for september. |
| 17:37.51 | Woland | SpeedEvil: radio api is one of most interesting thigs |
| 17:38.39 | SpeedEvil | An un-removable GSM card, which is slightly different. |
| 17:38.39 | tchuladdiass | then you'd have the same thing as the neo. |
| 17:38.47 | SpeedEvil | No, you wouldn't. |
| 17:38.57 | tchuladdiass | I mean, from a programming perspective. |
| 17:39.10 | SpeedEvil | I'd be quite happy with a locked-to-one-provider phone with a contract on, that I could play with the software on. |
| 17:39.27 | stefan_schmidt | Woland: Your only interface to GSM chip are virtual serial ports for AT commands. |
| 17:40.35 | Woland | stefan_schmidt: it's not an interface for "open" phone. |
| 17:40.52 | *** join/#openmoko srikantux (n=sri@59.92.138.108) |
| 17:41.27 | SpeedEvil | A open-source linux PDA with a glued in phone card, even if the phone card is locked to a provider is an interesting thing though. |
| 17:42.14 | Woland | lock is not problem. it will be unlocked any way |
| 17:42.56 | MetaBookfoziS | this is provider independent eh? |
| 17:42.59 | stefan_schmidt | Woland: You don't get the source code of the GSM chip. No way. No provider would allow you to use this phone on his network. |
| 17:43.12 | MetaBookfoziS | aah |
| 17:43.13 | SpeedEvil | Yes, you can jam any SIM in. |
| 17:43.13 | MetaBookfoziS | why? |
| 17:43.26 | MetaBookfoziS | but i can'T use ? |
| 17:43.29 | SpeedEvil | MetaBookfoziS: becasue they don't want hackers. |
| 17:43.34 | aloril | in any case you can always buy unlocked neo1973 |
| 17:43.53 | MetaBookfoziS | so i buy this phone, and can'T use it as a phone |
| 17:44.00 | SpeedEvil | It works as a phone. |
| 17:44.08 | SpeedEvil | It does not work as a GSM hacking device. |
| 17:44.10 | MetaBookfoziS | with my simvard, with my provider? |
| 17:44.13 | SpeedEvil | yes. |
| 17:44.36 | SpeedEvil | As long as your provider does not restrict you from using random handsets. Some do. |
| 17:44.45 | MetaBookfoziS | t-mobile? |
| 17:44.50 | LoRez | most providers don't actually lock your sim to a particular phone. you just pop your existing sim out and put it in another unlocked (or locked to your carrier) phone and it'll just work. |
| 17:44.52 | tchuladdiass | t-mobile allows any phone |
| 17:45.12 | MetaBookfoziS | oh good. (I have HU-Tmobile acc) |
| 17:45.12 | Woland | stefan_schmidt: nevermind. it will be reverse engineered the same way as thousands phones before it |
| 17:45.23 | tchuladdiass | they will even provide some limited tech support for foriegn phones |
| 17:45.25 | dottedmag | If some provider allows only particular cards, then roaming won't work. |
| 17:45.29 | SpeedEvil | LoRez: '3' is an exception in the UK, they turn off hte card if it's not in a 3G capable phone, as it's part of their revenue stream. |
| 17:46.21 | LoRez | SpeedEvil: that's assinine. what happens if your fancy 3G phone breaks and you have to ship it back? they give you a loaner 3G? |
| 17:46.28 | SpeedEvil | Yes. |
| 17:46.49 | SpeedEvil | They pay third parties for much of their non 3G data, so it actually costs them. |
| 17:47.00 | LoRez | ah |
| 17:47.06 | SpeedEvil | (it's transparent to the user) |
| 17:47.08 | LoRez | so you're roaming if you're not using 3g |
| 17:47.20 | SpeedEvil | And their revenue stream is to sell you video content and stuff |
| 17:47.34 | SpeedEvil | Which they can't effectively do if you're not on 3G. |
| 17:47.48 | LoRez | they'd have a hard time selling me on that junk anyway ;) |
| 17:47.51 | MetaBookfoziS | does the next generation openmoko have wifi andor camera? |
| 17:49.08 | SpeedEvil | I want Wi-fi, camera with optical zoom and flash, radio, digital radio, mobile TV, flashlight, and corkscrew. |
| 17:49.24 | Tv | And a pony! |
| 17:49.25 | MetaBookfoziS | you missed the knife |
| 17:49.35 | dottedmag | SpeedEvil: you forgot the portable shower :) |
| 17:49.37 | MetaBookfoziS | in it's both sides |
| 17:49.40 | MetaBookfoziS | :DDD |
| 17:49.46 | SpeedEvil | Tv: The pony is included, to carry the batteries. |
| 17:49.51 | CM | A FPGA is a must... |
| 17:49.52 | Woland | it doesn't have wifi?! |
| 17:49.57 | SpeedEvil | Woland: no. |
| 17:49.59 | MetaBookfoziS | Woland > it's sad but true. |
| 17:50.00 | CM | :P |
| 17:50.01 | SpeedEvil | Bluetooth only. |
| 17:50.09 | MetaBookfoziS | i prefer wifi instead of gprs:/ |
| 17:50.14 | Woland | mda... |
| 17:50.21 | aloril | and V12 ;-) |
| 17:50.23 | MetaBookfoziS | why not have this wifi? (driver problems?) |
| 17:50.29 | aloril | and multitouch |
| 17:50.31 | dottedmag | MetaBookfoziS: exactly |
| 17:50.31 | SpeedEvil | Driver/power problems. |
| 17:50.33 | CM | There's no good open ones |
| 17:50.44 | *** join/#openmoko unique_ (n=chatzill@pD9513DBB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 17:50.45 | CM | Wait for v2 :) |
| 17:50.49 | MetaBookfoziS | ralink? |
| 17:51.08 | *** join/#openmoko cyphase (n=cyphase@c-71-202-49-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 17:51.17 | *** join/#openmoko MiniMoose (i=dave@c-24-16-216-41.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
| 17:51.19 | MetaBookfoziS | that ahve opensource drivers ( idunno that is good or bad) |
| 17:51.23 | tchuladdiass | As long as they are still planning on including the coffee maker, I'm happy. |
| 17:51.50 | MetaBookfoziS | hey, the wifi is not equal with coffe maker :/ |
| 17:52.17 | Woland | ja-ja, coffee maker better %+)) |
| 17:52.20 | *** join/#openmoko zipola (n=zipola@zip.kortex.jyu.fi) |
| 17:52.52 | MetaBookfoziS | so have yours checked ralink? what they sell? |
| 17:53.00 | tchuladdiass | Well, I did read something about them including java, so I figured you'd have to have a coffee maker for that. |
| 17:53.02 | *** join/#openmoko xerom (n=jack@bl4-144-153.dsl.telepac.pt) |
| 17:53.21 | CM | MetaBookfoziS: I think the ones who are in charge have. It's been mentioned before at least |
| 17:53.43 | MetaBookfoziS | http://web.ralinktech.com/ |
| 17:53.48 | MetaBookfoziS | what? |
| 17:53.58 | MetaBookfoziS | i'm don't understand |
| 17:54.46 | CM | There have been discussions about wifi before, but it's a thing for version 2 |
| 17:55.03 | MetaBookfoziS | yep... |
| 17:55.12 | Kaloz | heh |
| 17:55.33 | Kaloz | that Robert Michel guy replies to every damn letter with a new and even longer subject? o.O |
| 17:55.35 | MetaBookfoziS | Szevasz Kaloz:) |
| 17:56.04 | Kaloz | hali :) |
| 17:56.24 | tchuladdiass | I've never had good luck with imbedded wifi. Just comparing my zaurs sl-6000 with built-in wifi, v.s. using other models with a wifi cf adapter. the external cf card gets better range. |
| 17:56.25 | MetaBookfoziS | You are the second hungarian since i'm in this room (~3days ago) ;) |
| 17:56.47 | Kaloz | MetaBookfoziS: btw I've suggested Atheros AR6001 cards for v2 before - sdio, gpl'ed drivers |
| 17:57.01 | tchuladdiass | So if a future version does include wifi, I would hope that it would have an external antenna connection. |
| 17:57.48 | MetaBookfoziS | and a pluggable chimney (for the coffe maker) |
| 18:00.32 | MetaBookfoziS | the unpowered usb hangs the wifi via usb idea:/ |
| 18:01.13 | *** join/#openmoko dneary_ (n=dneary@mne69-9-88-163-116-163.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 18:01.15 | MetaBookfoziS | so i need to create a little conenctor that have a wire to the accumulator, and two usb connector |
| 18:01.37 | b_lindeijer | One could plug a powered USB hub to it right, and then connect WIFI? |
| 18:02.01 | *** join/#openmoko Woland (n=lucifer@83.219.15.25) |
| 18:02.07 | MetaBookfoziS | but that is not too movable... |
| 18:02.24 | tchuladdiass | b_lindeijer: yes, in fact one that has been recommended to me is the battery powered one from cyberlink |
| 18:02.32 | MetaBookfoziS | i think aobut i buy a very little pendrive style wifi device |
| 18:02.42 | MetaBookfoziS | and then plug it, but that is not possible |
| 18:05.49 | b_lindeijer | tchuladdiass: Alright, cool. |
| 18:06.56 | b_lindeijer | Btw, the resolution on this thing is unprecedented or what? |
| 18:07.12 | b_lindeijer | Even the iPhone has only half that, while its screen is bigger? |
| 18:07.34 | b_lindeijer | The screenshots look hot. |
| 18:07.45 | CM | It's definitely a first for such a cheap device |
| 18:07.48 | aloril | yes (though some HTC machine has VGA too) |
| 18:07.49 | spikebik1 | indeed |
| 18:07.54 | spikebik1 | highest DPI I've seen |
| 18:08.03 | spikebik1 | alas I suspect it might be somewhat of a waste |
| 18:08.17 | tchuladdiass | does it ship with a magnifying glass? |
| 18:08.27 | MetaBookfoziS | what it's display rate? 6:9? |
| 18:09.07 | MetaBookfoziS | oh 640*480, sorry:) |
| 18:09.21 | b_lindeijer | Tja I know 640x480 from my old 14" screen, but this is going to be 2.8" :) |
| 18:09.32 | dw_swe | MetaBookfoziS: Remove casing on wifi make som new case with battery and voltage regulation and mount to phone, but it will still be bulky.. |
| 18:09.48 | MetaBookfoziS | and wararnty is hangs:) |
| 18:09.55 | MetaBookfoziS | oh yes! is there any warranty for it? |
| 18:10.19 | dw_swe | ooh.. sure, but i would not hesitate.. |
| 18:10.33 | MetaBookfoziS | :)) |
| 18:10.34 | dw_swe | dont know about warranty on neo |
| 18:11.05 | MetaBookfoziS | i think i make a cable like an ear speaker |
| 18:11.15 | MetaBookfoziS | and i put to my pocket the battery and the other things |
| 18:11.16 | MetaBookfoziS | :D |
| 18:11.59 | dw_swe | Yea, that would also work, and gives possibly space for bigger battery -> longer online life! =) |
| 18:12.12 | MetaBookfoziS | :D |
| 18:12.27 | *** join/#openmoko aloril2 (n=aloril@kaar72.airix.fi) |
| 18:12.37 | MetaBookfoziS | or some little generators to my shoes, then when i run it is charging:) |
| 18:13.01 | dw_swe | How much power might a usb-wifi chip draw? |
| 18:13.18 | dw_swe | solar cells on backpack or such. |
| 18:13.22 | MetaBookfoziS | wifi needs alot |
| 18:13.28 | MetaBookfoziS | i think |
| 18:13.33 | spikebik1 | dunno |
| 18:13.53 | dw_swe | mmm.. but thougth someone might have some numbers? |
| 18:13.54 | spikebik1 | my nokia 770 can drive a bright 800x480 screen + wifi for many hours on a small battery |
| 18:14.09 | MetaBookfoziS | but i will meter my usb bluetooth device when i have time |
| 18:14.16 | MetaBookfoziS | and i tell:) |
| 18:14.28 | dw_swe | Ok =) |
| 18:14.43 | MetaBookfoziS | in my phone iirc (as the docs said) the bt needs 70-80mah |
| 18:14.45 | dw_swe | Humm. but bluetooth draws alot less i think? |
| 18:15.01 | MetaBookfoziS | bt is on the same freq as wifi, not? |
| 18:15.15 | MetaBookfoziS | so i think the two is near itselves |
| 18:15.30 | dottedmag | spikebik1: nokia ppl are not constrained to the chips with open drivers. |
| 18:16.25 | SpeedEvil | dw_swe: 200mA or so - for a USB one at 5V, not transmitting all the time. |
| 18:16.29 | dw_swe | bt is shorter range, and specified? for lowpower usage |
| 18:16.31 | SpeedEvil | Call it a watt. |
| 18:16.32 | *** join/#openmoko prpplague^2 (n=dave@mailhost.amltd.com) |
| 18:16.51 | SpeedEvil | Maybe 2 hours battery life with a 1200mAh li-ion. |
| 18:17.15 | dw_swe | Ok thanks! That is alot of power usage in a mobile.. |
| 18:17.55 | SpeedEvil | The fundamental problem is that the protocol wasn't designed to be able to switch off the radio for long periods. |
| 18:18.09 | SpeedEvil | As you pretty much need to to hit really low power figures with current tech. |
| 18:18.09 | MetaBookfoziS | dw_swe > yes that is true, bt is generally optimised for little devices |
| 18:18.22 | SpeedEvil | the protocol = wifi |
| 18:19.06 | cying_work | wifi is getting better |
| 18:19.11 | SpeedEvil | Yeah. |
| 18:19.16 | spikebik1 | yeah in general bt is much lower power |
| 18:19.17 | cying_work | but still needs a lot of power |
| 18:19.21 | spikebik1 | and much slower |
| 18:19.24 | SpeedEvil | Chipsets getting cleverer, and advances in process. |
| 18:19.26 | spikebik1 | and much less range |
| 18:19.53 | cying_work | there are a few vendors that are building unified radio chipsets |
| 18:19.55 | spikebik1 | I have a tiny gps that can sleep with BT on for 300 hours |
| 18:20.01 | cying_work | that do GSM, WCDMA and wifi all in one |
| 18:20.04 | spikebik1 | I've seen bluetooth + gps chipsets |
| 18:20.34 | dw_swe | So if one ads external wifi there ougth to be som software regulated switch for the wifi chip also connected to usb. |
| 18:20.39 | *** join/#openmoko thedaniel (n=daniel@netblock-68-183-179-95.dslextreme.com) |
| 18:21.30 | mikesh | hi all |
| 18:21.32 | SpeedEvil | Software regulated switch? |
| 18:21.44 | SpeedEvil | There is no power to the external USB |
| 18:21.47 | mikesh | is it possible to port OpenTTD game to OpenMoko? |
| 18:22.15 | CM | mikesh: Probably. That's mentioned in the unofficial wiki |
| 18:22.24 | dw_swe | yes, external battery -> voltage regulator with usb connection -> wifi chip =) |
| 18:22.38 | mikesh | CM: ok, ill check it |
| 18:22.46 | SpeedEvil | Oh - right. |
| 18:23.18 | *** join/#openmoko greentux (n=lemke@Yd32b.y.pppool.de) |
| 18:24.03 | dw_swe | SpeedEvil: possibly som microcontroller, dont know of any V regulators with usb =( |
| 18:24.05 | SpeedEvil | You mean for an external? |
| 18:24.11 | SpeedEvil | There isn't really any need. |
| 18:24.22 | SpeedEvil | A small bettery, to power a USB device. |
| 18:24.28 | SpeedEvil | with a regulator. |
| 18:24.40 | SpeedEvil | Turning it off programatically is interesting though. |
| 18:25.09 | dw_swe | No, possibly no need for regulator... |
| 18:25.38 | SpeedEvil | There is a need for a regulator to do it right, USB is tightly specified in terms of voltage. |
| 18:25.47 | SpeedEvil | 5V+-10% IIRC |
| 18:29.02 | noidd | seen mickey; |
| 18:29.04 | noidd | seen mickeyl |
| 18:29.41 | *** join/#openmoko TimRiker (n=timr@216.49.181.128) |
| 18:31.00 | dw_swe | SpeedEvil: mmm.. ok, but worth a try without.. |
| 18:31.28 | SpeedEvil | Not really. Things tend to stop working in permenant ways. |
| 18:31.39 | SpeedEvil | And regulators are not expensive or large. |
| 18:32.00 | dw_swe | true |
| 18:32.47 | SpeedEvil | And you need some minimal smarts anyway to do charging. |
| 18:33.10 | *** join/#openmoko so_solid_moo_ (n=nnmoo@barney.alcoholicsunanimous.com) |
| 18:33.22 | MetaBookfoziS | i can'T run natively apps on this device, true? |
| 18:33.25 | SpeedEvil | no |
| 18:33.27 | MetaBookfoziS | for a brutal example, firefox? |
| 18:33.30 | SpeedEvil | You can. |
| 18:33.36 | SpeedEvil | You probably could run FF |
| 18:33.40 | MetaBookfoziS | eh |
| 18:33.49 | SpeedEvil | it may need to swap to flash though. |
| 18:33.55 | SpeedEvil | As it uses a hell of a lot of RAM. |
| 18:33.58 | MetaBookfoziS | yes.. |
| 18:34.10 | MetaBookfoziS | if i have 4 openmoko, i can build a cluster |
| 18:34.15 | b_lindeijer | What does it mean that you can't run apps natively on this device? |
| 18:34.20 | SpeedEvil | You can. |
| 18:34.20 | MetaBookfoziS | to run firefox ;) |
| 18:34.37 | SpeedEvil | You can run any program you can concieve of, that will fit. |
| 18:34.42 | SpeedEvil | and that you can write. |
| 18:34.47 | SpeedEvil | Or download source. |
| 18:34.54 | MetaBookfoziS | it's brutal |
| 18:34.55 | MetaBookfoziS | :) |
| 18:35.04 | dottedmag | hm. is there any special input methods, beside the touchscreen (should be seen as usual mouse from the application view, I suppose?) |
| 18:35.12 | SpeedEvil | Buttons |
| 18:35.19 | SpeedEvil | and mic IIRC |
| 18:35.25 | b_lindeijer | Well I will be interested in porting The Mana World over. |
| 18:35.25 | SpeedEvil | then there is the GSM radio. |
| 18:35.41 | dottedmag | ah, and how about on-screen keyboard or sth like this? |
| 18:35.45 | SpeedEvil | There are no accellerometers or light sensors, or cameras, or that sort of thing. |
| 18:36.06 | dottedmag | uh, I don't need such sort of crap. I just wanna old good Emacs :) |
| 18:36.09 | CM | dottedmag: Some people, including me, have been interested in hexinput |
| 18:36.09 | b_lindeijer | I have no idea about bandwidth and latency on GPRS connections though. |
| 18:36.20 | MetaBookfoziS | dottedmag > yep, thats intrest me, is that possible to typing -in usable and human way- on it? |
| 18:36.24 | SpeedEvil | 8kbits/sec |
| 18:36.30 | SpeedEvil | or so, minimum |
| 18:36.39 | b_lindeijer | And round trip time? :) |
| 18:36.47 | SpeedEvil | under a hundred ms. |
| 18:36.52 | b_lindeijer | Oh that's decent. |
| 18:36.53 | paulproteus | SpeedEvil, Hmm, that's not fast enough to do Internet Radio. )-: |
| 18:37.01 | SpeedEvil | IRC is quite possible. |
| 18:37.05 | MetaBookfoziS | :) |
| 18:37.08 | paulproteus | (-: |
| 18:37.22 | SpeedEvil | Internet radio - generally not - but you can in some circumstances get 28K or so speeds. |
| 18:37.24 | b_lindeijer | Although GPRS offers are quite expensive aren't they? Or is that only with prepaid? |
| 18:37.31 | SpeedEvil | It depends where you are. |
| 18:37.42 | SpeedEvil | Ask your local phone operator... |
| 18:37.57 | b_lindeijer | My current one, Aldi Talk, charges a lot for GPRS. |
| 18:38.00 | *** join/#openmoko lassey (n=chatzill@30-6-73.wireless.csail.mit.edu) |
| 18:38.46 | b_lindeijer | UMTS is pretty cheap here now, for like 10 euro a month flatrate. |
| 18:38.49 | *** join/#openmoko Zer0Her0 (n=Z@17.255.240.70) |
| 18:38.51 | dottedmag | b_lindeijer: well, GPRS is ~17 cents per MB here. |
| 18:40.06 | b_lindeijer | WAP is GPRS right? 0.20 cents a minute here. |
| 18:40.08 | paulproteus | That *is* enough bandwidth for VoIP, though. |
| 18:40.23 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=bob@p85.212.167.5.tisdip.tiscali.de) |
| 18:40.41 | paulproteus | http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/InternetAccess - can someone document what standard the phone supports here? |
| 18:40.57 | dottedmag | b_lindeijer: it depends. If it is 'per minute' then it's not over GPRS. WAP over GPRS should be 'per megabyte' or sth like this |
| 18:42.29 | *** part/#openmoko [wobble] (n=martin@213472.static-p6.dus.net) |
| 18:42.34 | b_lindeijer | dottedmag: Hmm, interesting. |
| 18:43.06 | CM | paulproteus: I agree, GPRS is missing from that page, and bluetooth is 2.0 EDR |
| 18:43.36 | paulproteus | Er, I don't know what you mean, so maybe you should just edit the page. (-: |
| 18:44.14 | CM | Hehe.. I can do that, but I wasn't sure if you were already doing that. :-) |
| 18:44.24 | paulproteus | Nope, I don't know enough to do it. (-: |
| 18:44.40 | b_lindeijer | dottedmag: Ah, it says 0.029 cent per KB for WAP and 0.009 cent per KB for Internet-Mobile. |
| 18:45.12 | b_lindeijer | That's still over 9 euro for one MB. |
| 18:45.33 | paulproteus | Wait, is 0.029 cent < 0.01 euro? |
| 18:45.53 | *** join/#openmoko TRIsoft (i=Mac@p57A28274.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 18:45.55 | *** join/#openmoko thedaniel (n=daniel@38.98.1.19) |
| 18:46.07 | b_lindeijer | Brr, 0.029 euro I mean... |
| 18:46.15 | paulproteus | Okay. |
| 18:47.53 | b_lindeijer | Now I am pretty clueless on the difference between WAP and Internet-Mobile. |
| 18:48.06 | SpeedEvil | WAP is WAP, internet mobile is GPRS |
| 18:48.17 | b_lindeijer | So what will my phone to when I request gmail.com? |
| 18:48.22 | SpeedEvil | WAP is sort of web pages, but designed for mobiles |
| 18:48.31 | SpeedEvil | and over different protocols. |
| 18:48.36 | b_lindeijer | phone do* |
| 18:48.46 | SpeedEvil | in that case, it just connects through GPRS as normal |
| 18:49.04 | b_lindeijer | Ok. |
| 18:49.40 | SpeedEvil | like ethernet/... |
| 18:49.56 | dottedmag | b_lindeijer: providers bill the connections to their WAP gateway differently |
| 18:50.15 | b_lindeijer | I see. |
| 18:50.19 | CM | WAP sucks, at least all pages I've tried |
| 18:50.43 | b_lindeijer | Yes I don't need WAP, would just be nice to be able to connect to the internet. |
| 18:50.46 | CM | OperaMini finally made it ok to actually surf on a k750i :) |
| 18:52.36 | *** join/#openmoko mawali (n=root@63.82.2.130) |
| 18:53.14 | mawali | can someone be kind to tell me how I can get the source to openmoko? |
| 18:53.26 | Zer0Her0 | mawali: wait |
| 18:53.28 | Zer0Her0 | ;) |
| 18:53.35 | Zer0Her0 | won't be released till 2/11 |
| 18:53.38 | *** join/#openmoko MeTa[AwAy] (n=sajt@3e44bf24.adsl.enternet.hu) |
| 18:53.54 | mawali | got it |
| 18:59.18 | *** join/#openmoko xerom (n=jack@bl4-144-183.dsl.telepac.pt) |
| 19:00.21 | *** join/#openmoko greentux (n=lemke@195.227.105.180) |
| 19:00.42 | *** join/#openmoko thedaniel (n=daniel@38.98.1.19) |
| 19:05.51 | *** join/#openmoko ozamosi (n=ozamosi@85.8.9.80.se.wasadata.net) |
| 19:07.28 | lassey | technically WAP is the transport |
| 19:07.41 | lassey | responding to earlier |
| 19:07.48 | lassey | roughly WAP = HTTP |
| 19:07.54 | lassey | WML = HTML |
| 19:08.05 | lassey | roughly |
| 19:08.06 | SpeedEvil | WAP = HTTP + IP/TCP AIUI. |
| 19:08.23 | lassey | its a protocol |
| 19:08.32 | lassey | it can sit on any protocol |
| 19:08.33 | lassey | just like http |
| 19:08.38 | SpeedEvil | oh |
| 19:09.08 | lassey | http sits on top of tcp, which sits on top of udp which sits on top of ip |
| 19:09.40 | lassey | like I said, their rough equivalents |
| 19:09.58 | lassey | most networks run wap over IP today anyway |
| 19:11.29 | b_lindeijer | I don't think I will ever get it. Did that whole WAP thing ever make any sense? I guess just in the few years that mobile phone screens displayed 2-3 lines of text and all people could think about were lottery, weather and sports. |
| 19:11.52 | pgas | hmm tcp is not on top of udp afaik |
| 19:13.17 | b_lindeijer | I don't think so either. |
| 19:14.38 | noidd | yeah, tcp is not on udp |
| 19:14.44 | noidd | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:15.06 | lassey | I stand corrected |
| 19:16.30 | mawali | I heard that the developer version of the phone will be shipped soon, I have not see any way to buy it |
| 19:19.54 | *** join/#openmoko slomo (n=slomo@ubuntu/member/slomo) |
| 19:30.23 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (i=foobar@dslb-084-057-136-222.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 19:30.25 | *** join/#openmoko rex (n=jpomeroy@dsl081-003-037.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 19:30.29 | *** join/#openmoko cpn (n=root@71-222-216-83.albq.qwest.net) |
| 19:34.38 | *** join/#openmoko jahsak (n=sako@unaffiliated/jahsak) |
| 19:35.31 | *** part/#openmoko jahsak (n=sako@unaffiliated/jahsak) |
| 19:40.27 | *** join/#openmoko epsino (n=epsino@r190-64-64-104.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy) |
| 19:40.49 | epsino | hi |
| 19:42.21 | *** join/#openmoko buz (n=buz@80-218-148-33.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 19:42.28 | *** join/#openmoko epsino (n=epsino@r190-64-64-104.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy) |
| 19:42.36 | *** join/#openmoko Buffet (n=lector@nat19.yauza.ru) |
| 19:42.48 | epsino | hello |
| 19:43.30 | thedaniel | hello epsino |
| 19:43.46 | epsino | any body know how to show the user list |
| 19:43.52 | epsino | with XChat ? |
| 19:44.13 | zipola | Ctrl+U |
| 19:44.41 | epsino | mmmm is not working |
| 19:45.14 | epsino | ok, dont worry |
| 19:45.56 | epsino | do you know how the neo1973 will be sell ? |
| 19:46.16 | epsino | any body know a link with a flash or video presentation ? |
| 19:46.50 | mikesh | epsino: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRvtAAXTIlg |
| 19:47.43 | epsino | i know it, but dont show the phone in action |
| 19:48.11 | epsino | i am searching more action |
| 19:48.12 | noidd | The timescales have been published. |
| 19:48.18 | mawali | I want that thing soooo bad |
| 19:48.18 | *** join/#openmoko maxwell_ (n=maxwell@r190-64-64-104.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy) |
| 19:48.41 | noidd | 2007-02-11 Phase 0: Developer Preview |
| 19:48.49 | noidd | Giveaway of phones to invited developers. |
| 19:48.49 | noidd | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:48.55 | noidd | 2007-03-11 Phase 1: Official Developer Launch |
| 19:49.06 | *** join/#openmoko FA-MetZger (n=metz@port495.ds1-hr.adsl.cybercity.dk) |
| 19:49.18 | noidd | Phones are for sale on openmoko.com $350 plus s+H |
| 19:49.26 | noidd | 2007-09-11 Phase 2: Mass Market Sale |
| 19:49.29 | noidd | Buy at your local store. |
| 19:51.04 | noidd | 2007-09-11 is also introduction of rev2 of the hardware. |
| 19:51.28 | noidd | 2008-02-11 Sending of free v2 phones to developers etc etc etc |
| 19:51.32 | noidd | and repeated |
| 19:53.53 | epsino | we are interested in sell the phone in our country, what do i to do ? |
| 19:54.00 | buz | contact sean |
| 19:56.36 | stefan_schmidt | esden: As buz stated. Contact Sean. He is busy, so perhaps it will take some time before he answer, but he is the right guy for your question. |
| 20:02.10 | epsino | exists a video that show the phone in action ? |
| 20:02.24 | CM | No, not yet |
| 20:02.33 | CM | It has barely been produced yet |
| 20:02.36 | *** join/#openmoko sotod (n=soto@12.122.203.62.cust.bluewin.ch) |
| 20:03.09 | epsino | java support is yet implemented or planed ? |
| 20:03.31 | CM | It's planned, but it's up to the community to get it going |
| 20:04.15 | CM | The build system is based on openembedded.org, so if they get it going it should be easy to get on the Neo |
| 20:05.26 | epsino | how i can help ? exists any embedded linux java vm for j2me/cdc ? |
| 20:07.37 | CM | esden: I don't know, but maybe http://community.java.net/mobileandembedded/ is a start :) |
| 20:07.50 | thedaniel | looks like someone is starting to work on it http://www.oesf.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=21995&hl= |
| 20:08.43 | esden | I seem to be standing in some peoples autocompletion lists before epsino ;) |
| 20:08.54 | CM | esden: Sorry.. |
| 20:09.28 | CM | Not used to having almost 200ppl in the same channel ;) |
| 20:09.30 | esden | CM: no problem ... I was just wordering why I get notifications of mentioning my name in openmoko |
| 20:10.06 | Odin-LAP | CM: 201, actually. Though not all qualify as people. |
| 20:10.35 | CM | apt: What are you? |
| 20:10.37 | apt | I am a blootbot. For more info see <blootbot> |
| 20:10.43 | esden | Odin-LAP: most of them are probably such spectators as I am ind idling around ;) |
| 20:10.59 | Odin-LAP | esden: Yes, quite traditional. |
| 20:11.14 | epsino | sorry esden |
| 20:11.46 | esden | Odin-LAP: but it shows how much interest openmoko concentrates. Otherwise noone would be here not even the idlers. |
| 20:12.05 | esden | epsino: it is not your fault ... do not worry |
| 20:12.26 | *** join/#openmoko guerby (n=guerby@gut75-4-82-235-162-148.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 20:12.37 | Odin-LAP | esden: Perhaps. |
| 20:12.49 | Odin-LAP | esden: Good to know, though, means the project may in fact be viable. ;) |
| 20:13.52 | esden | Odin-LAP: I will make that decision when there are people actually having the devices in their hands, and the first community developments start to emerge. |
| 20:14.17 | Odin-LAP | esden: Note that I said "may". |
| 20:14.38 | esden | Odin-LAP: yes, right |
| 20:15.04 | esden | aevin: add some days for shipping ;) |
| 20:15.13 | epsino | good luck with the project, and congratulations !!! i think that is an excelent project, i hope to get the phone soon !!! |
| 20:15.21 | epsino | bye bye |
| 20:15.30 | esden | cu epsino |
| 20:16.01 | CM | counter |
| 20:16.01 | aloril | 2 weeks, 4 days for source availability and devices for selected developers; 1 month, 2 weeks, 2 days for any developers; 7 months, 2 weeks, 6 days for mass market |
| 20:17.03 | noidd | man, I am so impatient |
| 20:17.12 | Odin-LAP | It seems you're not the only one. |
| 20:17.25 | MeTa[AwAy] | yes. |
| 20:17.33 | MeTa[AwAy] | you're not alone:) |
| 20:18.40 | MetaMorfoziS | how fast is the primary ram in the device? |
| 20:19.07 | MetaMorfoziS | mb/s, i mean |
| 20:19.20 | Odin-LAP | You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one... |
| 20:21.54 | *** join/#openmoko ninHer (n=ninHer@unaffiliated/ninher) |
| 20:23.15 | noidd | wb hrw |
| 20:26.27 | *** join/#openmoko lightyear (n=lightyea@p54877C1A.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 20:27.12 | buz | MetaMorfoziS: google for samsung s3c2410 |
| 20:28.05 | b_lindeijer | How can you make a chance of being one of the selected developers? |
| 20:28.37 | hrw | b_lindeijer: mailed coreteam like it is mentioned on webpage? |
| 20:28.44 | b_lindeijer | Ah whoops, sorry. |
| 20:29.21 | b_lindeijer | Well I wouldn't be selected anyway. :P |
| 20:29.31 | b_lindeijer | I'm just really interested in trying to port a game to it. :) |
| 20:29.47 | noidd | what game out of curiosity? |
| 20:29.56 | b_lindeijer | The Mana World, a free 2D MMORPG. |
| 20:30.14 | noidd | I was about to ask if it was networked |
| 20:30.34 | noidd | but I know the answer has to be yes otherwise it wouldn't be an MMOrpg |
| 20:30.35 | b_lindeijer | I guess the most tricky part will be communication between players. |
| 20:32.18 | *** join/#openmoko tm (n=tm@home.e-life.fr) |
| 20:32.19 | b_lindeijer | Playing the game could be mostly done with the stylus. |
| 20:32.21 | b_lindeijer | Well assuming stuff like SDL, SDL_image, SDL_net, etc. all works fine. |
| 20:32.21 | leventhal | EQ and FFXI for PS2 solved that with gestures triggering text macros, and voip |
| 20:32.21 | b_lindeijer | Interesting. |
| 20:32.24 | MetaMorfoziS | as i see, not too public information the speed |
| 20:32.24 | MetaMorfoziS | http://www.samsung.com/Products/Semiconductor/SystemLSI/C_CSOCSolution/C_CSOCSolution04.htm |
| 20:32.31 | leventhal | And then there was Diplomacy for OS 7.x where you talked with the computer by rearranging symbol blocks to form sentences |
| 20:32.42 | leventhal | Which'd be pretty intuitive for a stylus |
| 20:32.43 | b_lindeijer | Hehe. |
| 20:32.56 | hrw | b_lindeijer: SDL will works ok |
| 20:32.57 | *** join/#openmoko rwhitby (n=rwhitby@nslu2-linux/rwhitby) |
| 20:33.12 | MetaMorfoziS | what is the max speed of the best sd card? |
| 20:33.19 | b_lindeijer | hrw: That's cool. :) |
| 20:33.26 | MetaMorfoziS | (i touching about the swap speed) |
| 20:33.36 | hrw | MetaMorfoziS: not so very fast |
| 20:33.58 | MetaMorfoziS | what, the swapping or the sd card? |
| 20:36.40 | noidd | you want to avoid swapping on SD. SD cards have limited writability and if you use it for swap is will eventually fail. |
| 20:37.16 | hrw | noidd: cards can be cheap |
| 20:37.30 | hrw | MetaMorfoziS: sd card will be not highspeed rather |
| 20:38.23 | MetaMorfoziS | but 5-6 mb/sec is enough, not? |
| 20:38.48 | MetaMorfoziS | it's a stupid qustion... |
| 20:39.38 | hrw | I do not know will it get to 5-6M |
| 20:40.00 | *** join/#openmoko guerby (n=guerby@gut75-4-82-235-162-148.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 20:40.20 | *** join/#openmoko BuildMania (n=chatzill@168.226.104.21) |
| 20:42.01 | xorAxAx | did you know that the sd spec disallows any other fs than fat32? :) |
| 20:42.08 | xorAxAx | (or fat16) |
| 20:42.49 | hrw | xorAxAx: I know that sometimes it is a problem |
| 20:44.02 | Sketch | sd cards are pretty cheap these days, you can get 2gb cards for <US$20 |
| 20:44.32 | hrw | Sketch: SD are cheaper then microsd |
| 20:44.52 | Sketch | ah, didn't realize we were talking microSD :) |
| 20:45.09 | Sketch | the smaller cards are pretty cheap for those too, but not as cheap |
| 20:45.29 | Sketch | seems like both of them get cheaper every time i look |
| 20:48.33 | *** join/#openmoko orospakr (n=orospakr@ip-174.49.99.216.dsl-cust.ca.inter.net) |
| 20:50.41 | MetaMorfoziS | hm,shit |
| 20:50.57 | MetaMorfoziS | a 2gb microsd in hungary 2048MB SECURITY DIGITAL CARD TWINMOS (150X)13 750,- Ft16 500,- Ft14 750,- Ft17 700,- Ft59,- ?71,- ? |
| 20:51.04 | MetaMorfoziS | fsck. |
| 20:51.29 | MetaMorfoziS | i think i'm buy that from abroad;) |
| 20:51.42 | hrw | ~change 58 pln to usd |
| 20:52.06 | hrw | 1GB microsd cheapest |
| 20:52.23 | MetaMorfoziS | 1change 71 eur to usd |
| 20:52.28 | MetaMorfoziS | ~change 71 eur to usd |
| 20:53.40 | MetaMorfoziS | Sketch > in march, you buyy a 4gb one for me (for 20usd), and i buy from you;) |
| 20:53.50 | LittleIdiot | uah! one of the asterisk.org "web developers" takes lsd. |
| 20:54.07 | LittleIdiot | at least the one that selected the colors for it... |
| 20:54.55 | *** join/#openmoko _rob (n=rob@ACAD6CD3.ipt.aol.com) |
| 20:55.11 | CM | LittleIdiot: Hehe.. Yikes |
| 20:55.43 | rob_w | LittleIdiot, i do like the orange actually |
| 20:56.09 | LittleIdiot | orange is fine... but combined with purple... uh, i don't know... |
| 20:56.32 | CM | Doesn't fade nicely.. Red would have worked |
| 20:56.39 | rob_w | yeah the purple then stick in the eyes middle |
| 20:57.05 | CM | I wonder how OpenMoko will be themed, and how easy/hard it will be to make a good one |
| 20:57.40 | hrw | CM: gtk is hard to theme good |
| 20:57.43 | rob_w | i hope the kick some effects into gtk .. |
| 20:57.58 | LittleIdiot | anyway... i wanted to follow the ideas that include gps position reporting and send it via dtmf. i know asterisk can demodulate and read them ;) |
| 20:58.03 | *** join/#openmoko terrex (n=terrex@84-122-63-17.onocable.ono.com) |
| 20:58.22 | hrw | CM: http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2006/10/28/gtk-theming-woes-for-embedded-guis/ |
| 20:58.46 | *** join/#openmoko Odin-LAP (n=odin@s121-302.gardur.hi.is) |
| 20:58.50 | CM | hrw: Thanks, I'm reading |
| 20:59.07 | rob_w | hrw, i really adore gtk |
| 20:59.20 | hrw | rob_w: I prefer Qt |
| 20:59.28 | hrw | but will learn GTK |
| 20:59.37 | rob_w | but i feel the themeing needs more love to be used |
| 21:00.04 | rob_w | Qt is many times wonderfull |
| 21:01.16 | rob_w | for small screens one needs the application that is only button driven .. |
| 21:02.29 | ninHer | hi all |
| 21:06.48 | b_lindeijer | wonderful* |
| 21:07.05 | LittleIdiot | will we be able to limit the gsm transmit power? |
| 21:07.40 | rob_w | LittleIdiot, u bet |
| 21:07.57 | *** join/#openmoko epb (n=epb@fw.oek.dk) |
| 21:08.23 | LittleIdiot | when i'm at university there are some rooms that are, at least supposed to, be tempest safe. in these rooms you won't get receiption anyways and the phone would just drain the batteries by trying to connect |
| 21:11.25 | *** part/#openmoko epb (n=epb@fw.oek.dk) |
| 21:12.13 | *** join/#openmoko chrustinho (n=christop@p57B00B8A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 21:12.21 | *** join/#openmoko epb (n=epb@fw.oek.dk) |
| 21:13.18 | *** part/#openmoko epb (n=epb@fw.oek.dk) |
| 21:14.42 | *** join/#openmoko [wobble] (n=martin@213472.static-p6.dus.net) |
| 21:19.02 | *** join/#openmoko tchuladdiass (n=derekp@c-24-12-232-138.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
| 21:21.12 | Odin-LAP | Why does a university need TEMPEST? O_o |
| 21:21.35 | greentux | who you dont switch the phone into flightmode |
| 21:25.55 | LittleIdiot | they evaluate hard & software for some companies... i think somebody just had too much money to waste for it. |
| 21:26.30 | Odin-LAP | Crazy. |
| 21:27.03 | *** join/#openmoko TimRiker (n=timr@pdpc/supporter/bronze/TimRiker) |
| 21:27.05 | LittleIdiot | copacobana.org another crazy project from them ;) |
| 21:29.18 | Odin-LAP | Auf Deutsch? |
| 21:30.13 | LittleIdiot | oh, add www. ;) |
| 21:30.40 | xorAxAx | society for it security and incorrectly configured vhosts |
| 21:30.52 | LittleIdiot | hehe |
| 21:31.05 | Odin-LAP | Interesting. |
| 21:31.21 | xorAxAx | Odin-LAP: do you know the wpa-crackers? |
| 21:31.31 | xorAxAx | the verilog code is open source |
| 21:31.36 | Odin-LAP | I take it they're into fairly exotic security stuff? |
| 21:31.44 | Odin-LAP | xorAxAx: Hm. Can't say I do, no. |
| 21:31.47 | xorAxAx | Odin-LAP: that doesnt sound exotic on that pae |
| 21:31.52 | xorAxAx | Odin-LAP: see the 23c3 pages |
| 21:31.57 | xorAxAx | they held a presentation |
| 21:32.22 | xorAxAx | basically, you buy a large fpga, then you transfer the cracker and the key onto the fpga and let it calculate |
| 21:32.34 | Odin-LAP | xorAxAx: TEMPEST and exhaustive DES key search are fairly ... useless. But, whatever. :p |
| 21:32.37 | xorAxAx | and they sell dvds with precalculated tables :) |
| 21:32.44 | xorAxAx | Odin-LAP: no, not at all |
| 21:32.49 | xorAxAx | DES is very weak |
| 21:33.04 | xorAxAx | maybe they dont have fpga in iceland, i dont know :) |
| 21:33.26 | xorAxAx | and wpa can be easily cracked as well if the key is short |
| 21:33.47 | Odin-LAP | DES is indeed very weak. Which is why nothing interesting is protected by it these days. ;) |
| 21:34.01 | xorAxAx | hmm, there are some things still using 3-DES |
| 21:34.17 | LittleIdiot | 3-des is ok, if used correctly ;) |
| 21:34.27 | Odin-LAP | Yes, but exhaustive search against that remains impractical, really. |
| 21:34.35 | xorAxAx | LittleIdiot: no, its still weak |
| 21:34.49 | LittleIdiot | xorAxAx: go, break 112 bit. |
| 21:34.54 | Odin-LAP | It's weaker than AES, yes. |
| 21:35.38 | LittleIdiot | its always a question of money, but you |
| 21:36.01 | noidd | Ok, random question about the phone |
| 21:36.03 | LittleIdiot | *argh* daim keyboard ... where was i - ...cant crack 3des on current computers |
| 21:36.12 | xorAxAx | LittleIdiot: see the EFF RSA events |
| 21:36.13 | noidd | does anyone know what the Hole at the microphone end is for? |
| 21:37.28 | LittleIdiot | you can do meet in the middle with 3des, but you need a lot of disk space... |
| 21:37.29 | nonick01 | a question: the neo1973 uses microsd or minisd? |
| 21:38.18 | xorAxAx | LittleIdiot: copacabana is cheap, look at deepcrack |
| 21:38.24 | *** join/#openmoko borg_ (n=olaf@80.149.17.21) |
| 21:38.25 | greentux | nonick01: see website |
| 21:39.38 | LittleIdiot | sure, but that one will only do single des, which does not mean you can crack 3des - big difference. |
| 21:40.02 | LittleIdiot | it may do 3des, but exhaustive key search with 112 bits takes forever even with that thing. |
| 21:40.14 | xorAxAx | yes |
| 21:40.47 | LittleIdiot | so, 3des is secure for now ;) |
| 21:41.50 | Odin-LAP | And likely a while yet. Still, I wouldn't suggest it be used for new developments... |
| 21:41.56 | *** join/#openmoko emulsion (n=emulsion@cpe-071-065-217-026.nc.res.rr.com) |
| 21:42.03 | Odin-LAP | Since we're on the subject of encryption, though. |
| 21:42.14 | xorAxAx | LittleIdiot: no |
| 21:42.27 | xorAxAx | talking about security systems in such a simple manner is not sane :) |
| 21:42.48 | Odin-LAP | Do you think it would be practicable to run AES to encrypt voice on the Neo1973? |
| 21:42.48 | xorAxAx | who knows if there are different attack vectors :) |
| 21:43.03 | xorAxAx | Odin-LAP: no, it wont be |
| 21:43.20 | xorAxAx | because the audio infrastructure doesnt allow for that |
| 21:43.32 | zecke | Odin-LAP: it all depends how the audio is routed |
| 21:43.47 | xorAxAx | zecke: analogous |
| 21:44.03 | xorAxAx | that was one of LaF0rge's 31 answers :) |
| 21:44.13 | zecke | ah okay :) |
| 21:44.27 | Odin-LAP | xorAxAx: Wait ... you mean the code has no access to the audio subsystem? |
| 21:44.44 | xorAxAx | Odin-LAP: the "audio subsystem" is closed source like 50% of the phone |
| 21:44.50 | xorAxAx | its implemented in hardware |
| 21:45.04 | nonick01 | a question: why is the neo1973 not going to have infrared port? |
| 21:45.08 | xorAxAx | i.e. the gsm chip just accepts analogous audio |
| 21:45.13 | hrw | nonick01: lack of serial ports |
| 21:45.14 | LittleIdiot | xorAxAx: interested in a query about that topic? ;) |
| 21:46.09 | Odin-LAP | xorAxAx: I'm not thinking about transmitting through GSM, actually. |
| 21:46.14 | nonick01 | well... equally soon the old phones without bluetooth will be totally uncommon |
| 21:46.23 | xorAxAx | LittleIdiot: sure |
| 21:46.26 | noidd | xorAxAx: are you sure that the sound is closed? |
| 21:46.37 | xorAxAx | noidd: i have never said that |
| 21:46.39 | noidd | are you saying that the audio in and out is part of the GSM module? |
| 21:46.46 | noidd | ok, let me rephrase |
| 21:46.56 | xorAxAx | i am saying that gsm is accepting audio via a pin |
| 21:47.04 | noidd | Ah, I misunderstood |
| 21:47.07 | noidd | sorry :-0 |
| 21:47.14 | xorAxAx | Odin-LAP: oh, how? |
| 21:47.25 | noidd | can you route audio from your sound chip to the GSM audio input? |
| 21:47.31 | noidd | in software |
| 21:47.36 | xorAxAx | noidd: no idea |
| 21:47.56 | *** join/#openmoko tomjoad4500 (n=tomjoad4@adsl-70-130-201-119.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net) |
| 21:48.04 | xorAxAx | but the primary issue would be to develop a codec that can tunnel through the gsm codecs |
| 21:48.14 | nonick01 | also the phone should have at least a vga camera but I heard that the sensors should be too little and the photos should like bad |
| 21:48.19 | xorAxAx | and then transmit your voice via that |
| 21:48.30 | nonick01 | sorry for my english :( |
| 21:51.17 | emulsion | I know this has probably been asked 1,000 times before but can ne1 tell me what date i, as an non-developer, can order the phone? |
| 21:51.54 | Odin-LAP | xorAxAx: I'm wondering about the possibility of using this thing as an encrypted tactical radio, basically. The two bottlenecks I'm not sure about are the ability to route audio properly (you can't do it with existing phones, from what I've seen) and the transmission properties. The method I've been thinking of is Bluetooth. I'd have to get a bit more up to speed with exactly how it works, though. :p |
| 21:53.08 | xorAxAx | Odin-LAP: umm, bluetooth is very limited in range :) |
| 21:53.37 | Odin-LAP | xorAxAx: Just how limited? |
| 21:54.08 | pike_ | Odin-LAP: i guess it might come in handy sending messages in class. if youre close |
| 21:54.11 | hrw | BT has 3 classes: 1m, 10m, 100m |
| 21:54.24 | hrw | common used are 10m and 100m |
| 21:54.34 | hrw | Neo1973 probably have 10m one |
| 21:54.50 | Odin-LAP | What's the range in practice? |
| 21:55.12 | hrw | never tested |
| 21:56.07 | mattb | emulsion: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-January/000000.html |
| 21:56.26 | mattb | as pointed to by the topic ;p |
| 21:56.44 | spikebik1 | my nokia770 + gps manages 10M or so line of sight |
| 21:56.49 | emulsion | thx |
| 21:56.55 | spikebik1 | not tried it through walls |
| 21:57.00 | greentux | xorAxAx: there are some codecs developed now. But the quality sounds not very useful atm |
| 21:57.26 | spikebik1 | you could do voip kinda stuff over GPRS without horrible lag |
| 21:57.33 | greentux | xorAxAx: and only simplex, only usable in the same gsm network (because of recoding) etc etc |
| 21:57.37 | spikebik1 | would be much nicer with edge |
| 21:57.37 | tchuladdiass | emulsion: to help clarify, the 03/11 date is targeted primarily to open source developers, but anyone can order it at that time. But the "usable" version (for general public) will be 09/11. |
| 21:57.52 | hrw | and some will get it 02/11 |
| 21:58.09 | greentux | and the mass of devs in 03/11 |
| 21:58.22 | emulsion | great, can't wait |
| 21:58.55 | tchuladdiass | I think the 2/11 is the "give away" ones only, is that correct? |
| 21:58.57 | xorAxAx | greentux: hmm, ok |
| 21:59.05 | greentux | that means, FIC hopes the openmoko project will build a usable software from 2/11 till approc. 10/11 :) |
| 21:59.54 | greentux | xorAxAx: I heard one codec realised in hardware (dsp) and one in software. And You can understand the speech whole sitting in a studio. |
| 22:00.21 | greentux | xorAxAx: but at the airport etc... no chance. then its better you do some text to speech :) |
| 22:00.28 | XorA|gone | greentux: #include angstrom.h :-) |
| 22:00.54 | greentux | XorA|gone: ? |
| 22:01.05 | spikebik1 | green seems plausible as long as it's delivered originally with the ability to send and receive phone calls |
| 22:01.58 | XorA|gone | greentux: build usable software |
| 22:02.14 | greentux | XorA|gone: yes of course... :) |
| 22:03.51 | noidd | I wonder if the selling of devices to developers means that they can be classified as prototypes which means they don't need FCC approval ;-D |
| 22:04.02 | *** join/#openmoko rwhitby (n=rwhitby@nslu2-linux/rwhitby) |
| 22:04.05 | spikebik1 | dunno |
| 22:04.15 | spikebik1 | I heard some mention that the module used received FCC approval |
| 22:04.32 | spikebik1 | and was sufficiently separate to not require the phone to be tested |
| 22:05.52 | LittleIdiot | fcc is american -- if you want to use it in other countries, you need other agencies to approve it |
| 22:05.59 | greentux | noidd: no openmoko need fcc approval |
| 22:06.07 | greentux | in europe you need "ce" |
| 22:06.27 | hrw | greentux: and ROHS compliance |
| 22:06.41 | xorAxAx | yes |
| 22:06.43 | xorAxAx | no lead |
| 22:06.51 | *** part/#openmoko [wobble] (n=martin@213472.static-p6.dus.net) |
| 22:06.54 | greentux | only for radiation etc. but I have a sony ux-90 ordered in japan. no ce, no rohs. works fine |
| 22:07.21 | LittleIdiot | it works, but some countries may restrict the power levels for it. |
| 22:07.24 | greentux | s/nei/neo |
| 22:07.39 | greentux | LittleIdiot: which powerlevels? gsm? |
| 22:08.08 | greentux | gsm is defined. there is a mx. power of 2W in 900 MHz. everywhere. for mobiles. |
| 22:08.26 | *** join/#openmoko sotod_ (n=soto@183-31.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch) |
| 22:08.38 | *** join/#openmoko terrex (n=terrex@84-122-63-17.onocable.ono.com) |
| 22:08.47 | spikebik1 | does openmoko do 850 MHz? |
| 22:08.49 | spikebik1 | (gsm) |
| 22:09.04 | hrw | spikebik1: checked website? |
| 22:09.13 | LittleIdiot | e.g. sending above 100mw with your wlan device without extra permissions is forbidden in germany. in the us you can afaik send with 200mw |
| 22:09.16 | SpeedEvil | 850Mhz works well here. |
| 22:09.36 | SpeedEvil | In my house - 2.4Ghz not really. |
| 22:09.43 | SpeedEvil | Err - 1.8 |
| 22:09.50 | SpeedEvil | (50cm stone walls) |
| 22:09.57 | LittleIdiot | i suppose there are limits for phones as well |
| 22:10.06 | greentux | wlan is not the same worldwide. gsm is! |
| 22:10.15 | tchuladdiass | spikebik1: yep, it is a quadband phone |
| 22:10.26 | LittleIdiot | .11b/g, not a in this case ;) |
| 22:10.31 | XorA|gone | 850,900,1700,1800 |
| 22:10.38 | Odin-LAP | GSM is a licenced band. |
| 22:10.41 | greentux | 850 900 1800 1900 |
| 22:10.54 | xorAxAx | openmoko will be quad band |
| 22:11.11 | spikebik1 | I'm hoping openmoko version 2 supports Edge or better |
| 22:11.49 | SpeedEvil | I think the only way everyone could be happy is plug-in PCI cards for the phone. |
| 22:11.57 | SpeedEvil | All you need is a TARDIS module. |
| 22:13.10 | LittleIdiot | i'm going to buy bluetooth accesspoints just to make free calls voip from places i hang out regularly. |
| 22:13.15 | XorA|gone | now Id buy a TARDIS, but not with that crappy Tennant guy in it |
| 22:13.39 | LittleIdiot | it's cheaper than subscribing to a flatrate plan... at least after a year it pays ;) |
| 22:13.48 | spikebik1 | sure |
| 22:14.11 | spikebik1 | not exactly transparent or particularly good for incoming calls |
| 22:14.25 | rwhitby | spikebik1: openmoko v2 does not make sense - I think you mean neo 1973 v2 |
| 22:14.50 | nonick01 | also openmoko should be available on other phones models |
| 22:14.50 | rwhitby | "openmoko is a software platform and project, neo is a phone" |
| 22:14.50 | LittleIdiot | i'll have an asterix at home which receives the calls and forwards it |
| 22:15.23 | rwhitby | xorAxAx: call it GTA-01 then |
| 22:15.23 | *** join/#openmoko sergio_ (n=sergio@81-174-23-58.f5.ngi.it) |
| 22:15.34 | nonick01 | because I don't like palm-like phones |
| 22:15.37 | xorAxAx | grand theft auto? |
| 22:15.48 | LittleIdiot | my personal plan is: buy a "homezone" flatrate plan plus another 0-euro/month plan from the same provider. take the one with the 0-euro sim with me and connect the other one to the asterisk pbx... voilą |
| 22:16.21 | spikebik1 | rwhitby okay neo1973 v2... if it's still called that in it's second release |
| 22:16.26 | xorAxAx | LittleIdiot: oooold idea :) |
| 22:16.29 | LittleIdiot | with bluetooth available i can add encryption |
| 22:17.27 | rwhitby | LittleIdiot: and run it all on an nslu2 |
| 22:17.44 | XorA|gone | just a pity its not fast enough for mpeg 4 :-( |
| 22:18.33 | tchuladdiass | But it should be fast enough to play ascii movies |
| 22:18.39 | LittleIdiot | eumex 300 ip here - its a voip/isdn/analogue phone router |
| 22:18.57 | greentux | cu |
| 22:19.07 | LittleIdiot | actually its a cloaked fritzbox (c) (r) (tm) |
| 22:19.57 | nonick01 | so there will be low / medium class versions of the neo1973? |
| 22:20.03 | xorAxAx | LittleIdiot: can it fetch beer? |
| 22:20.12 | LittleIdiot | not yet ;) |
| 22:20.15 | xorAxAx | LittleIdiot: do you have an isdn phone? |
| 22:20.18 | hrw | nonick01: low version will be without gps and screen |
| 22:20.20 | xorAxAx | attached to it |
| 22:20.38 | tchuladdiass | xorAxAx: no, not the beer, but it can make coffee |
| 22:20.45 | xorAxAx | LittleIdiot: try #96*6* |
| 22:20.46 | LittleIdiot | but my home controller board with speech recognition can turn on the caffee-machine already ;) |
| 22:20.55 | xorAxAx | it will fetch bier |
| 22:20.57 | xorAxAx | beer |
| 22:21.01 | nonick01 | also there should be a version with camera |
| 22:21.12 | pike_ | why do i get the feeling v2 will end up being the first general release.. |
| 22:21.17 | xorAxAx | (this is no joke, thats german engineering spirit) |
| 22:21.22 | nonick01 | even if that means removing the gps or some functions |
| 22:21.34 | xorAxAx | LittleIdiot: and no, it wont do any harm |
| 22:21.41 | LittleIdiot | xorAxAx: they didn't implemet that joke ;) |
| 22:21.49 | xorAxAx | LittleIdiot: http://www.wehavemorefun.de/fritzbox/Versteckte_Features#.22Bier_holen.22_mit_FRITZ.21Box_Fon_WLAN |
| 22:21.51 | LittleIdiot | the t-com guys left that one out |
| 22:21.56 | xorAxAx | bad :-( |
| 22:21.58 | LittleIdiot | yeah, i know ;) |
| 22:22.29 | LittleIdiot | do you anything more about the "telefon" application? |
| 22:22.47 | xorAxAx | telefon? |
| 22:23.03 | MetaMorfoziS | telefon? |
| 22:23.13 | xorAxAx | # telefon |
| 22:23.15 | xorAxAx | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:23.16 | xorAxAx | ah |
| 22:23.20 | LittleIdiot | it talks to the propritary isdn driver, but i haven't yet figured how |
| 22:23.21 | hrw | telephone |
| 22:23.25 | MetaMorfoziS | mayar-e vagy? |
| 22:23.31 | MetaMorfoziS | g |
| 22:24.14 | xorAxAx | -rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 578068 Jul 26 14:38 telefon |
| 22:24.15 | xorAxAx | ugh |
| 22:24.26 | xorAxAx | LittleIdiot: thats a lot |
| 22:24.32 | xorAxAx | does it contain vxworks? :) |
| 22:25.03 | nonick01 | neo1973 v2 = neo1973 + camera :) |
| 22:25.06 | LittleIdiot | have you seen the other accounts "service" and "team"? ;) |
| 22:25.44 | LittleIdiot | i wonder if they can have a shell with these on all their routers. and i wonder if everyone else can, too ;) |
| 22:26.02 | xorAxAx | mine only has root |
| 22:26.05 | xorAxAx | haha :) |
| 22:26.18 | xorAxAx | (factory config) |
| 22:26.54 | LittleIdiot | hmm, strange. i've had to remove them from the source archive |
| 22:27.57 | *** join/#openmoko terrex (n=terrex@84-122-63-17.onocable.ono.com) |
| 22:29.32 | nonick01 | hmmm I think that the absence of a camera will go against this phone. Maybe it should be included in neo1973 v2? |
| 22:30.09 | XorA|gone | cameras suck |
| 22:30.31 | *** join/#openmoko wycats_ (n=wycats@ool-182f95fa.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 22:30.54 | nonick01 | why? at least a vga camera for quick photos :) |
| 22:31.07 | xorAxAx | LittleIdiot: fritzbox here |
| 22:31.10 | marcellus | I already have two digital cameras. I don't need another one. |
| 22:31.14 | xorAxAx | LittleIdiot: not T-bnd-box |
| 22:31.36 | nonick01 | also not all the people has got a digital camera |
| 22:31.54 | LittleIdiot | its the same hardware, you can flash it with the fritz firmware and vice versa, but it sells for ~one third on egay |
| 22:37.26 | *** join/#openmoko Zer0Her0 (n=Z@17.255.240.70) |
| 22:38.08 | nonick01 | well let the camera alone... the low version will be more like a normal phone as I heard... is that right? |
| 22:39.27 | *** join/#openmoko esden (n=esden@repl.esden.net) |
| 22:45.48 | nonick01 | :| irc emptied suddenly |
| 22:47.26 | hrw | I'm editing article for one Linux event. |
| 22:51.46 | SpeedEvil | Camera is not only for camera though. Camera could be input device - virtual keyboard, for example, gesture interface, ... |
| 22:55.55 | LittleIdiot | but still, consumes power and can't bring beer ;) |
| 22:55.57 | *** join/#openmoko sam0 (n=sam0@static-212-101-18-115.adsl.solnet.ch) |
| 22:56.28 | LittleIdiot | i'm quite suspicious that the batteries in it will last long |
| 22:56.29 | SpeedEvil | Hardware constrains software. |
| 22:56.51 | rwhitby | SpeedEvil: right - put it on the wishlist for v2, and then focus on what can be done with v1 hardware. |
| 22:57.00 | SpeedEvil | Some interesting software possibilities - for example multiple SIMs are impossible. |
| 22:57.12 | hrw | aloril: counter |
| 22:57.13 | aloril | 2 weeks, 3 days for source availability and devices for selected developers; 1 month, 2 weeks, 1 day for any developers; 7 months, 2 weeks, 5 days for mass market |
| 22:57.23 | rwhitby | c'est la vie - the v1 hardware is *not* going to change now. |
| 22:57.25 | hrw | less then 3 weeks to source.... |
| 22:57.39 | SpeedEvil | Unless it has a major show-stopper hardware bug. |
| 22:57.41 | hrw | and, who knows, maybe even device... |
| 22:57.45 | rwhitby | hrw: just enough time to climb the OE learning curve ;-) |
| 22:58.00 | *** join/#openmoko rox (n=rox@84.52.147.74) |
| 22:58.11 | hrw | SpeedEvil: 2/11 is time when HARDWARE will get shipped to developers. NO ONE will change hardware now |
| 22:58.41 | SpeedEvil | If the hardware turns out to not actually work, it will have to be changed in some degree. |
| 22:58.58 | SpeedEvil | Though I don't know how exact the prototypes they have now are. |
| 22:59.00 | hrw | SpeedEvil: current version is iirc 3rd version of v1 |
| 22:59.06 | rwhitby | SpeedEvil: the hardware works now - they have pre-production prototypes working. |
| 22:59.10 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 22:59.32 | hrw | first versions had problem with touchscreen iirc ;D |
| 22:59.46 | rwhitby | yeah, that was the delay apparently. |
| 23:01.42 | Psi_ | do we know if the neo limitation preventing the use of >2GB microsd cards is hardware or software? |
| 23:01.46 | SpeedEvil | Is the phone retail price going to be approximately the $350? |
| 23:02.06 | spikebik1 | yes |
| 23:02.08 | hrw | Psi_: send me such card and I will tell you this |
| 23:02.19 | Psi_ | heh |
| 23:02.40 | SpeedEvil | The end-user retail price, not the dev 'early' price. |
| 23:02.50 | SpeedEvil | Or is that not fixed. |
| 23:02.56 | hrw | Psi_: but in practice I suspect that software |
| 23:03.38 | Psi_ | SpeedEvil, i thought it was, select developers get it free and everyone else pays $350 direct from the website |
| 23:04.24 | spikebik1 | yup |
| 23:04.27 | Psi_ | hrw, so you reckon, with some software hacking, it is possible 8GB cards will work? |
| 23:04.38 | spikebik1 | a kernel upgrade added rs-mmc 2GB support to the nokia 7770 |
| 23:04.46 | spikebik1 | 770 |
| 23:04.52 | Psi_ | and that uses the same chipset? |
| 23:05.00 | hrw | Psi_: other chipset |
| 23:05.11 | hrw | Psi_: 8GB cards are SDHC ones? |
| 23:05.30 | Psi_ | as i understood it, anything larger than 2GB was SDHC? |
| 23:05.30 | SpeedEvil | Psi_ - anyone can pay $350 - for the first release of 'for sale' phones. I don't think it's been explicitly stated that the price for the 'bulk' sales of phones will be the same. |
| 23:05.53 | hrw | Psi_: iirc yes |
| 23:06.22 | hrw | Psi_: sdhc support is going to be merged sooner or later into kernel. so who knows... maybe neo will get it too during develmonths |
| 23:06.50 | Psi_ | ah, cool, so its a software thing, doesnt need any more hardware pin connections to the card etc |
| 23:07.55 | hrw | iirc all mmc/sd cards are able to work in mmc mode |
| 23:08.10 | Psi_ | sounds good |
| 23:08.15 | SpeedEvil | But mmc mode is very slow. |
| 23:08.25 | SpeedEvil | the minimal 'compatible' mode |
| 23:08.45 | Psi_ | being able to read 8GB is much better than not being able too :) even if its slow |
| 23:09.58 | LittleIdiot | is there a special controller in between for the sd cards, or can i do bit-banging with the pins on the reader slot directly in software? ;) |
| 23:10.31 | Psi_ | good question |
| 23:11.04 | LittleIdiot | ...and: is the card inserted into a slot or do i have to open the case somewhere before inserting it? |
| 23:11.21 | LittleIdiot | if its a slot i could just plug in extra devices there |
| 23:11.22 | Psi_ | the card slot is under the battery i believe |
| 23:11.27 | LittleIdiot | daim. |
| 23:12.36 | LittleIdiot | well, i'll find a way as soon as i have one ;) |
| 23:12.51 | MetaMorfoziS | openmoko is a very hacky device:) |
| 23:13.03 | hrw | card is in dual slot: sim+microsd |
| 23:13.04 | MetaMorfoziS | for wifi you have a ahcked cable (that have power) |
| 23:13.12 | rwhitby | openmoko is not a device. neo 1973 is a device. |
| 23:13.16 | MetaMorfoziS | for slot^ you need some other devices:) |
| 23:13.18 | LittleIdiot | hey, i could even log and blog my caffeine addiction with it ;) |
| 23:13.29 | MetaMorfoziS | rwhitby > ok, then neo1973 |
| 23:13.34 | SpeedEvil | You can in principle wire together MMC cards, and have them work. |
| 23:13.34 | MetaMorfoziS | 1973 is a date? |
| 23:13.38 | MetaMorfoziS | what happens in 1973? |
| 23:13.42 | rwhitby | first mobile phone call |
| 23:13.45 | SpeedEvil | You cannot do this with SD cards IIRC |
| 23:13.51 | MetaMorfoziS | 73? |
| 23:13.52 | MetaMorfoziS | lol. |
| 23:13.56 | SpeedEvil | In SD mode rather. |
| 23:14.03 | LittleIdiot | (by adding a 433 mhz receiver that receives the signals for the coffee-machine) |
| 23:14.08 | SpeedEvil | And SDIO cards can't do this at all. |
| 23:14.11 | MetaMorfoziS | :DDD |
| 23:14.19 | emulsion | any thought to a good provider in the US? Will providers go for it? Or does that even matter |
| 23:14.30 | SpeedEvil | Not matter. |
| 23:14.34 | SpeedEvil | Buy a SIM. |
| 23:14.36 | SpeedEvil | Plug it in. |
| 23:14.41 | SpeedEvil | Works. |
| 23:14.41 | emulsion | cool, thought so |
| 23:15.09 | SpeedEvil | The slight downside is that it might be nice to get providers that would supply it on contract, for a discount - locked to one provider. |
| 23:16.09 | *** join/#openmoko koen_ (n=koen@vpn006066.vpn.utwente.nl) |
| 23:16.12 | LittleIdiot | will that still be possible? i thought not |
| 23:16.22 | SpeedEvil | In principle, maybe. |
| 23:16.29 | thedaniel | SpeedEvil: that seems to completely fly in the face of having an 'open' phone |
| 23:16.30 | SpeedEvil | The GSM part of the phone is not open source. |
| 23:16.39 | LittleIdiot | oh, ok |
| 23:16.42 | hrw | LittleIdiot: read announcement and check 09/11 date |
| 23:17.05 | LittleIdiot | have read it, but must have (intentionally) ignored that one ;) |
| 23:17.08 | SpeedEvil | Not really - a phone locked to one provider, that you can run your own software on would be nice. |
| 23:17.21 | SpeedEvil | if it was sufficiently cheaper. |
| 23:17.56 | hrw | 2007-09-11 Phase 2: Mass Market Sale Online sales will continue. We will also be available in a retail stores and selected carriers around the world. |
| 23:18.11 | Psi_ | i dont think the GSM part should be open anyway, it would make it easy to abuse the phone and providers would try to block it on their network |
| 23:18.25 | LittleIdiot | hrw: that does not imply that provider locking works |
| 23:19.09 | hrw | LittleIdiot: show me provider which will sell you cheaper phone without simlock |
| 23:20.03 | LittleIdiot | that wasn't in question. i just said that i thought it wouldn't be possible to lock it for providers. |
| 23:20.59 | LittleIdiot | i thought they may change the firmware, add stuff they need, but not lock it and prevent the users from flashing it |
| 23:21.42 | SpeedEvil | Users can't flash the GSM part. That's the part that providers would typically lock to their service. |
| 23:22.00 | LittleIdiot | yep |
| 23:22.12 | SpeedEvil | So you can't use it on other peoples networks, and not pay them money for making calls over the contract period. |
| 23:22.33 | thedaniel | SpeedEvil: i don't know if the gsm module is that smart |
| 23:22.34 | LittleIdiot | so again, is that possible with the used gsm module? |
| 23:22.38 | Psi_ | if users cant flash the GSM part, but it is lockable, wouldn't that mean that it IS flashable, users are just not supposed to know how :P ? |
| 23:23.27 | SpeedEvil | I don't know - most providers won't be that interested in supplying phones that can't be locked to their networks. |
| 23:23.48 | Psi_ | can someone point out why phone locking is so important to a provider |
| 23:24.21 | SpeedEvil | Phone sells for $350 |
| 23:24.26 | nonick01 | also will this phone be distributed here in argentina by some provider? |
| 23:24.29 | Psi_ | the provider wants the user to make calls, if the user uses there simcard in another phone, what difference does it make |
| 23:24.57 | SpeedEvil | Provider sells phone for $250, makes you sign a contract for 12 months that obligates you to pay them >100. |
| 23:25.20 | SpeedEvil | Or that they hope - including average calls - that you will pay them >100 |
| 23:25.50 | MetaMorfoziS | and then, you have a locked phone:D |
| 23:25.53 | SpeedEvil | Depending on how it all works out, and your call volume, you can end up saving a fair amount od money. |
| 23:25.55 | LittleIdiot | well, Psi_ has a point. if you have the contract already and can't get out of it, you'll have to pay the hardware anyway |
| 23:26.01 | Odin-LAP | Psi_: You can't lock the card to a specific phone, actually. |
| 23:26.10 | Psi_ | LittleIdiot, yes, thats my point :) |
| 23:26.17 | Odin-LAP | You can only lock the phone to a specific card. |
| 23:27.27 | LittleIdiot | but i just dont know if the providers think the same way. most of the phones they sell for a quite low price come with locking |
| 23:27.47 | LittleIdiot | i dont know why, but they still do. stupid them. ;) |
| 23:27.49 | SpeedEvil | That's the idea - they make the profit back off the users. |
| 23:28.03 | Psi_ | LittleIdiot, its probably something they do, but dont really know why |
| 23:28.04 | Psi_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:28.04 | Odin-LAP | It's not really likely that you'll see openmoko phones in those offers... |
| 23:28.31 | thedaniel | i think it may have to do with using features to attract more signups |
| 23:28.51 | SpeedEvil | That's the nasty part of it. Locking abilities of phones down. |
| 23:29.04 | thedaniel | for example, the sidekick's netowrk connect strings are in firmware, effectively locking data services to tmobile |
| 23:29.05 | LittleIdiot | we have to make it play the ringtones all these stupid kids buy and i bet it will show up in their shops ;) |
| 23:29.14 | SpeedEvil | Like, not being able to copy mp3s onto the phone, or pictures you've taken off easily via usb. |
| 23:29.22 | thedaniel | so the sidekick is attractive to ceartain people but even if they buy one on ebay they must sign up for tmobile to use it |
| 23:29.30 | thedaniel | s/ceartain/certain/ |
| 23:30.03 | nonick01 | here in argentina providers offers two contract methods, one where you need to pay $35 per month (U$S 11.6 approx.) and another where you don't need to pay anything but the phone and the calls / sms / mms / gprs / edge uses are more expensivest |
| 23:30.44 | nonick01 | that's just the main trouble |
| 23:31.37 | sam0 | hello, is there a chance that wifi is added to openmoko ? do _every_ wifi vendors lock their drivers ? (yes, I've read Moss-Pultz explaination) |
| 23:32.46 | LittleIdiot | not in this version. but maybe - there have been zillions of discussions on the list about it |
| 23:33.56 | *** join/#openmoko Zer0HiT (n=Z@cpe-24-195-252-248.nycap.res.rr.com) |
| 23:34.06 | sam0 | ok thank. sorry for asking one more |
| 23:34.31 | LittleIdiot | the community wants it and they (hopefully) know it ;) |
| 23:35.15 | hrw | sam0: choices are: dig for OLD chipsets which are not ROHS compliant and forget that you will be able to sell it |
| 23:36.13 | hrw | sam0: or get one of USB wifi chipsets, add extra 3.3V->5V regulator which will add battery usage and then wifi stick will convert 5V back to 3.3V (another power leak) |
| 23:36.32 | SpeedEvil | Or external wifi stick with battery. |
| 23:36.42 | hrw | sam0: or get one of chipsets which can work on CF/USB/SPI but lack open driver |
| 23:37.42 | sam0 | ok |
| 23:38.31 | sergio_ | hello.I'm a researcher in embedded systems.Is it possible to get an openMoko development system? |
| 23:39.01 | cbpage | yeah i don't think you can get a good prism2 anymore :( |
| 23:39.05 | Zer0HiT | sergio_: best to read the press release that's linked to in the topic |
| 23:39.09 | cbpage | the later prisms are crippled. |
| 23:39.14 | rwhitby | sergio_: see the first paragraph on openmoko.com |
| 23:44.47 | *** join/#openmoko Robot101 (n=robot101@light.bluelinux.co.uk) |
| 23:45.04 | sergio_ | ok, thanks.I will take a better look at the website.My main interest is on the possibility of hardware customization |
| 23:45.19 | hrw | sergio_: in which way? |
| 23:45.42 | SpeedEvil | At the moment - it's basically 'you can't. |
| 23:45.56 | SpeedEvil | Other than adding external stuff to the USB port. |
| 23:47.37 | dw_swe | Is it possible to multiplex sd-cards? And sdio-cards? Using som GPIO |
| 23:47.40 | sergio_ | speedevil: are there plans to give licenses for reference design? |
| 23:47.50 | SpeedEvil | sergio_: no clue. |
| 23:48.00 | hrw | sergio_: contact coreteam |
| 23:48.02 | SpeedEvil | dw_swe: with GPIO, all is possible. |
| 23:48.09 | dw_swe | SpeedEvil: =) |
| 23:48.18 | SpeedEvil | You can bit-bang either SD or MMC cards. |
| 23:48.47 | SpeedEvil | And you can stack MMC cards - or SD cards in MMC mode without any GPIO, just connect them together electrically up to the limit of the power supply. |
| 23:48.50 | sergio_ | Ok.thanks guys |
| 23:49.07 | SpeedEvil | Performance goes up dramatically if you have seperate ouput data lines. |
| 23:49.20 | SpeedEvil | SDIO cards basically need seperate controllers per card AIUI. |
| 23:49.43 | hrw | mmc use 1 line. sd can use 1/4/8 lines |
| 23:49.44 | dw_swe | Humm. ok, but chip select? or have they got adresses? |
| 23:49.54 | *** join/#openmoko icculus (n=icculus@12.13.142.4) |
| 23:49.59 | SpeedEvil | If you are really interested, you can pay several thousand dollars to the SD card association for the standard. Downloding it off edonkey is bad. |
| 23:50.04 | *** join/#openmoko xerom (n=jack@bl4-134-16.dsl.telepac.pt) |
| 23:50.25 | dw_swe | ok, i will remember that! |
| 23:50.36 | SpeedEvil | In the base MMC mode, you can discover the 'name' of the cards even when they are connected electrically together. |
| 23:50.48 | *** join/#openmoko jtoy (n=jtoy@cust-206-40-173-221.bos-static.gis.net) |
| 23:50.52 | SpeedEvil | You can't do this with SDIO, as they reuse one of the pins IIRC |
| 23:51.02 | dw_swe | cool, but then not so fast? |
| 23:51.27 | LittleIdiot | hmm, i've asked this on the list, but nobody answered yet: are there unsused i/o ports on the board? |
| 23:51.28 | SpeedEvil | Yes, the more you add to the bus, the more it slows down. |
| 23:52.05 | SpeedEvil | If it's a typical phone - there is probably sharply limited space for anything. |
| 23:52.28 | LittleIdiot | wiring them to the outside would be ok for me |
| 23:52.50 | SpeedEvil | In that case, it may be as easy to use a USB-parallel port chip. |
| 23:53.09 | SpeedEvil | There is that. |
| 23:53.43 | dw_swe | just glue a sdio card to the back |
| 23:53.52 | LittleIdiot | uuh... should do, but thats another power consumer... not much but it does |
| 23:54.14 | LittleIdiot | and i'd have to supply it with power, still |
| 23:54.16 | dw_swe | and some way to shut it off via gpio |
| 23:55.03 | *** part/#openmoko sam0 (n=sam0@static-212-101-18-115.adsl.solnet.ch) |
| 23:55.07 | SpeedEvil | I was wondering if the USB socket, in 'peripheral' mode was detectable easily. |
| 23:55.42 | SpeedEvil | As you have the it in host mode when you want to talk over the wifi connection, and put it into host mode when you don't, and the peripheral turns off. |
| 23:56.30 | SpeedEvil | I suppose I should read the USB standard again. |
| 23:56.40 | dw_swe | um, shut off host mode u mean? |
| 23:57.20 | dw_swe | hum, dont think you need to read the whole? =) |
| 23:57.37 | SpeedEvil | yes. |
| 23:57.44 | SpeedEvil | The bits of. |
| 23:58.19 | SpeedEvil | I was wondering if the data-line voltages are in a defined state in peripheral vs host mode. (static state, obviously they'll bounce around) |
| 23:58.44 | LittleIdiot | tristate i suppose, so undefined/not connected |
| 23:58.47 | dw_swe | some pulldown |
| 23:58.58 | dw_swe | if there are problems |
| 23:59.16 | SpeedEvil | This is just for connecting stuff with internal battery to the USB port. |
| 23:59.34 | SpeedEvil | So it goes to sleep cleanly when not wanted. And charges from USB of course. |
| 23:59.58 | *** part/#openmoko icculus (n=icculus@12.13.142.4) |