| 00:00.13 | dduardo | Flick the device to the right or left to select |
| 00:01.09 | CM | xkr47: http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS9048137234.html (About floating point on arm) |
| 00:01.28 | CM | Even says ".. he was compiling the applications natively, on top of Koen Kooi's OpenEmbedded-based pure EABI filesystem.." |
| 00:01.45 | xkr47 | will check it in a while |
| 00:02.15 | koen | http://dominion.kabel.utwente.nl/koen/cms/arm-eabi-fame |
| 00:02.29 | CM | Yep, that was linked :) |
| 00:02.37 | CM | Saw you posted that last summer even |
| 00:03.09 | koen | note that openmoko isn't using EABI (yet) |
| 00:03.30 | koen | we got armv4t working too late for them to switch |
| 00:04.19 | koen | openmoko is using software floating point |
| 00:04.29 | dduardo | An FPU would be great for doing FFT. |
| 00:04.49 | bhima | dduardo: Apple played with the surface texture of the screen to get the friction right. |
| 00:05.47 | dduardo | bhima, but was the same thing done with the Neo? |
| 00:06.38 | koen | dduardo: you can do fft with fixedpoint math |
| 00:06.52 | spikebik1 | you can do anything with ints |
| 00:06.53 | dduardo | I know you can do it with fixedpoint math, but it is slower |
| 00:07.06 | spikebik1 | it cost performance though |
| 00:07.12 | spikebik1 | hell you could use strings |
| 00:08.21 | *** join/#openmoko edwardocallaghan (n=edward@host86-129-163-67.range86-129.btcentralplus.com) |
| 00:08.58 | bhima | dduardo: It's a lot harder to play with the texture of a pressure-based touch screen, since it needs to be very thin and very scratch resistant. |
| 00:09.38 | bhima | If you just have a solid plastic layer that stops you poking the LCD, it's easy to adjsut the surface. |
| 00:10.14 | edwardocallaghan | Hi |
| 00:10.22 | bhima | Also, I _highly_ doubt that the Neo has been customized to that extent. Going back and forth with your vendors a lot costs $$$. |
| 00:11.01 | edwardocallaghan | What's new on the Announcements ? |
| 00:11.44 | dduardo | edwardocallaghan, announcement: http://img403.imageshack.us/my.php?image=neo1973announcementra2.jpg |
| 00:12.05 | dduardo | other then that, nothing yet |
| 00:12.21 | bhima | So, the announcement is, somebody doesn't know how to use Photoshop well. :) |
| 00:12.24 | edwardocallaghan | lol |
| 00:12.29 | dduardo | You mean GIMP |
| 00:12.36 | xkr47 | lol |
| 00:12.36 | dduardo | yes |
| 00:12.45 | edwardocallaghan | Yes indeed the Gimp ! |
| 00:12.51 | dduardo | I haven't used Windows in I don't know how long |
| 00:12.59 | bhima | I don't do Windows either. |
| 00:13.03 | bhima | Other than removing spyware every now and then. |
| 00:13.14 | edwardocallaghan | What's windows ? |
| 00:13.35 | bhima | edward: soemthing you should study so you know what mistakes to not repeat. |
| 00:14.10 | edwardocallaghan | What, you just look though windows ? |
| 00:14.25 | dduardo | bhima, all you need to know is how unix works |
| 00:14.37 | dduardo | Forget about the mistakes windows makes |
| 00:15.05 | dduardo | Windows is trying to revinvent what we've had since the 80's. |
| 00:15.07 | bhima | dduardo: So, UNIX is the perfect OS, and nobody should work on doing anything better than it? |
| 00:15.07 | spikebik1 | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/01/19/motorola_linux_phone/ |
| 00:15.12 | edwardocallaghan | Yes, worry about the mistakes in Unix and correct them |
| 00:15.48 | dduardo | The UNIX philosophy is pretty darn good if you ask me. Small modular programs that do very specific tasks |
| 00:16.02 | edwardocallaghan | bhima:No, they should take it and improve it |
| 00:16.34 | edwardocallaghan | Not wast time doing the same thing over and over agine |
| 00:17.35 | dduardo | http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9/ |
| 00:17.52 | dduardo | Distributed OS |
| 00:18.04 | bhima | The unix philosophy does help it make a lot of progress, since it's easy to replace components as needed. |
| 00:18.39 | bhima | I'm not sure I like the idea of everything being a file though. |
| 00:18.52 | koen | rm /dev/cpu0 |
| 00:19.10 | dduardo | The windows philosophy tries to crame features into one binary and makes it difficult to customize |
| 00:19.30 | bhima | mv /app/big_cpu_sucker /net/koen/dev/cpu0 |
| 00:21.14 | edwardocallaghan | cat /dev/urandom >> /dev/null & |
| 00:21.28 | bhima | One particularly nifty thing I remember old MacOS doing was OS-level file translation services. Apps defined what sort of files they could open. FIle translators registered themselves and defined what they could do. |
| 00:21.44 | bhima | Double click on a file, it figures out which apps can open it, or if none can, translates for you on the fly. |
| 00:21.50 | dduardo | cat /dev/urandom > /dev/dsp |
| 00:21.55 | xkr47 | worked nice |
| 00:22.03 | xkr47 | aplay as well |
| 00:22.20 | xkr47 | but twinkle (a voip program) did not |
| 00:22.33 | bhima | xkr47: on the Neo? |
| 00:22.39 | xkr47 | noo.. just my pc |
| 00:22.40 | *** join/#openmoko Tv (n=tv@GMKLXVII.dsl.saunalahti.fi) |
| 00:22.43 | xkr47 | I'm checking what you can do |
| 00:22.56 | xkr47 | but the idea was that I could share devices with my neo later :) |
| 00:23.08 | edwardocallaghan | ahhahah cat /dev/urandom > /dev/dsp that's cool |
| 00:23.13 | xkr47 | heh |
| 00:23.17 | koen | XorA|sleep is the audio master :) |
| 00:23.21 | edwardocallaghan | Did not think to do that |
| 00:23.41 | edwardocallaghan | Any other tricks like that |
| 00:23.44 | bhima | My alarm system for awhile was a cron job, "cat /home/gopi/foo.au >> /dev/audio" |
| 00:25.27 | xkr47 | or whoever it was |
| 00:25.31 | edwardocallaghan | lol |
| 00:26.10 | dduardo | I wonder what my network sounds like? Hmmm. Redirects tcpdump to /dev/dsp |
| 00:26.31 | bhima | Run a packet sniffing screen saver. |
| 00:26.39 | xkr47 | it sounds funny :) |
| 00:26.40 | bhima | just dump random pictures to the screen. |
| 00:26.45 | edwardocallaghan | See why Unix is so fun ! |
| 00:27.03 | xkr47 | tcpdump -i web -nn -w /dev/dsp |
| 00:27.07 | dduardo | If your a really good network admin you can tell when someone is sniiffer your server by simply listening to the traffic |
| 00:27.14 | bhima | From what I've been told, that's a great way to get porn in college dorms. |
| 00:27.16 | xkr47 | :) |
| 00:27.21 | xkr47 | so you always keep that running :) |
| 00:27.22 | dduardo | s/sniifer/sniffing |
| 00:28.03 | edwardocallaghan | lol |
| 00:29.28 | xkr47 | oops.. my perl was bad |
| 00:29.55 | dduardo | perl is too obtuse. python is the way to go |
| 00:30.26 | Mortimus | would prelink work on openmoko? |
| 00:30.35 | xkr47 | add a +128 after * 127 |
| 00:30.41 | xkr47 | better sinus then :) |
| 00:30.45 | Mortimus | 255 |
| 00:30.47 | xkr47 | forgot default is unsigned |
| 00:31.02 | spikebik1 | in general prelink seems to trade ram for speed |
| 00:31.07 | spikebik1 | not a good idea on a cell phone |
| 00:31.19 | spikebik1 | not to mention flash has good random access times |
| 00:31.23 | spikebik1 | (and disks don't) |
| 00:31.54 | Mortimus | ahh |
| 00:32.07 | dduardo | Ooo, just posted on the mailing list: Idea: Use headphone output as a remote control |
| 00:32.27 | dduardo | This would be a great way to get the Wiimote working on the Neo |
| 00:32.36 | Psi | dduardo, i had that idea a few weeks ago |
| 00:32.42 | Psi | IR remote control |
| 00:32.52 | Psi | for tv's etc |
| 00:33.01 | edwardocallaghan | /home/gopi/foo.au what's in there? |
| 00:33.18 | bhima | edwardo: some random music. |
| 00:34.00 | Psi | would be better if you could mount an IR tx chip inside the device accross the internal speaker tho, since there is 5v in there, and it would look better |
| 00:34.00 | dduardo | my ears are about to burst from the perl script |
| 00:34.01 | edwardocallaghan | Is it possible to send files over a IRC ? |
| 00:34.15 | Psi | err. ment to say 3.3v |
| 00:34.19 | *** join/#openmoko Mortimus (n=mortimus@pool-71-250-104-223.nwrknj.east.verizon.net) |
| 00:34.27 | Mortimus | random crash |
| 00:34.29 | Psi | edwardocallaghan, yes, dcc |
| 00:35.17 | edwardocallaghan | ? |
| 00:35.36 | edwardocallaghan | send the alarm over please |
| 00:36.27 | dduardo | I have an idea: how about have a camera that faces the user. That way instead of having to enter a password, the Neo would do facial recognition to authorize entry. |
| 00:36.59 | dduardo | Perhaps you could even keep try of eye movement |
| 00:37.05 | Mortimus | that would be sick |
| 00:37.25 | edwardocallaghan | Yes that's a easy one to code |
| 00:37.39 | edwardocallaghan | Hold on while I nock it up |
| 00:38.24 | dduardo | Hasn't IBM been working on eye tracking as an input method |
| 00:38.36 | dduardo | Blue Eyes or something like that |
| 00:38.55 | daxxar | Eyegaze? |
| 00:39.00 | daxxar | http://www.almaden.ibm.com/cs/projects/eyegaze/ |
| 00:39.05 | edwardocallaghan | IBM are mad, always have been |
| 00:39.50 | edwardocallaghan | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_qE6gMlou8 |
| 00:39.51 | daxxar | Probably why they're filthy rich |
| 00:39.52 | daxxar | ;) |
| 00:40.58 | xkr47 | time to sleep |
| 00:41.04 | xkr47 | good night |
| 00:41.32 | xkr47 | in the morning, I'll see a "100 fastest got their moko now" |
| 00:41.38 | daxxar | ;P |
| 00:41.43 | *** topic/#openmoko by Psi -> OpenMoko Developer Lounge | http://www.openmoko.com | http://lists.openmoko.org | Neo1973 ETA for early access: February 2007 | Wifi: No, Multitouch: No, Bluetooth: Yes | Direct-Sale World Wide | No Preorders yet | 2007 Roadmap Announcement Todheheay (Central Time) |
| 00:41.43 | *** topic/#openmoko by ChanServ -> OpenMoko Developer Lounge | http://www.openmoko.com | http://lists.openmoko.org | Neo1973 ETA for early access: February 2007 | Wifi: No, Multitouch: No, Bluetooth: Yes | Direct-Sale World Wide | No Preorders yet | 2007 Roadmap Announcement Today (Central Time) |
| 00:41.49 | Psi | ops |
| 00:42.11 | Zer0Her0 | haha |
| 00:42.14 | Zer0Her0 | night xkr47 |
| 00:42.18 | xkr47 | \o |
| 00:42.19 | Psi | nite |
| 00:42.29 | xkr47 | I've been up for 23 hours, that's enough for today =) |
| 00:42.49 | xkr47 | tomorrow I'll perhaps try writing a pulseaudio plugin for xmms2 |
| 00:43.18 | Mortimus | i can see xmms on a phone not pc |
| 00:43.26 | Mortimus | but i do like mpd better |
| 00:43.36 | Mortimus | i think it takes less res |
| 00:43.59 | Mortimus | anyways goodnight |
| 00:44.50 | Zer0Her0 | nothing just changed in the topic right? |
| 00:44.51 | Psi | nope, i had my cursor in the wrong place when i tried to type something |
| 00:47.31 | spikebik1 | boo |
| 00:47.46 | spikebik1 | was hoping for an announcement |
| 00:48.14 | daxxar | You tease! |
| 00:48.48 | Psi | considering the word "today" will always mean "today" it could happen any time between now and the end of time :P |
| 00:49.21 | spikebik1 | bleah |
| 00:49.25 | Zer0Her0 | :( |
| 00:49.31 | spikebik1 | at least they could say "Sorry, delayed, monday or something" |
| 00:49.42 | johnny67 | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:49.48 | johnny67 | ;-) |
| 00:49.58 | *** join/#openmoko dilinger (n=dilinger@c-24-128-243-228.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 00:50.07 | Psi | until its been 24 hours from when the topic was changed to saying "today" there is still hope |
| 00:50.35 | Zer0Her0 | now we see why Psi changed the topic |
| 00:51.09 | Psi | you found the hehe |
| 00:51.15 | edwardocallaghan | I can see this phone become another of one of them would be projects |
| 00:52.03 | edwardocallaghan | As soon as I get my hands on the phone I plan to port NetBSD on it |
| 00:54.10 | dduardo | Breaking News: Netcraft confirms it: NetBSD is Dying |
| 00:55.50 | *** join/#openmoko TRIsoft (i=Mac@p57A2846D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 00:56.18 | TRIsoft | hmmm. Still don't see much of an announcement ;-) |
| 00:56.40 | *** join/#openmoko MindCrusher (n=chatzill@82.76.176.152) |
| 00:57.32 | edwardocallaghan | NetBSD is going no where |
| 00:57.43 | Zer0Her0 | TRIsoft: w/in 24 hours |
| 00:58.01 | dduardo | 2007 Roadmap Announcement: It will be done when it's done. |
| 00:58.14 | Zer0Her0 | Break news: hundreds die as they stay up for days waiting for OpenMoko announcement |
| 00:58.15 | edwardocallaghan | Its got a small foot print and there is much to be learnt from its code |
| 00:58.19 | TRIsoft | Yeah. Don't j/k |
| 00:58.20 | Zer0Her0 | 200* Roadmap |
| 00:58.34 | TRIsoft | ^w don't |
| 00:59.04 | dduardo | Duke Neo1973 Forever |
| 00:59.16 | TRIsoft | lol |
| 00:59.19 | inivex | lol |
| 00:59.32 | TRIsoft | Neo is delayed, cause it's running Hurd :D |
| 00:59.52 | edwardocallaghan | www.nexenta.com/ is the big thing coming as I see it |
| 00:59.52 | Psi | by my calc, central time is still today for another 4-5 hours |
| 01:00.04 | benJIman | Psi: depends which central time they're referring to |
| 01:00.08 | Psi | yeah |
| 01:00.10 | edwardocallaghan | As a advanced Desktop/Workstation OS |
| 01:00.25 | TRIsoft | Friday at central alpha centauri time is in 3 months :-( |
| 01:01.12 | *** join/#openmoko bkuhn (n=bkuhn@pool-162-84-155-68.ny5030.east.verizon.net) |
| 01:01.17 | MindCrusher | actually they did not say this friday |
| 01:01.28 | *** join/#openmoko wabz (n=wabz@c211-30-4-5.artrmn1.nsw.optusnet.com.au) |
| 01:01.36 | dduardo | Breaking News: Netcraft confirms it: OpenSolaris is Dying |
| 01:01.38 | MindCrusher | just in a friday sometime in 2007 |
| 01:02.08 | dduardo | Yeah, some friday in some year |
| 01:02.11 | edwardocallaghan | How the hell is Solaris dying ? |
| 01:02.32 | dduardo | edward, don't argue with Netcraft. They are ALWAYS right |
| 01:04.27 | dduardo | Here is another idea: If the Neo had a camera you could take pictures of business cards, OCR the image and extract the contact info. |
| 01:04.30 | TRIsoft | and a face regognition instead of a pin code |
| 01:04.35 | dduardo | absolutely |
| 01:04.42 | Psi | and if the neo had a fusion reactor it would never need to be recharged :) |
| 01:04.48 | TRIsoft | but if you miss to shave, no phone :-( |
| 01:04.54 | *** join/#openmoko Agrajag- (n=filip@c211-30-4-5.artrmn1.nsw.optusnet.com.au) |
| 01:05.05 | dduardo | The Neo could also spot terrorists |
| 01:05.20 | dduardo | It could be linked up with the FBI database |
| 01:05.31 | TRIsoft | medium beard: medium terroris, full beard: terrorist ? |
| 01:06.26 | dduardo | And if the neo had a built in taser, you could shock the stranger trying to mess with your phone |
| 01:06.54 | *** part/#openmoko inivex (n=eachan@c-75-73-239-142.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) |
| 01:07.01 | TRIsoft | And i want the handgrenade function like the iPhone |
| 01:07.39 | dduardo | and after the neo blows up it better work |
| 01:08.27 | edwardocallaghan | OpenSolaris is the best OS ! |
| 01:08.45 | dduardo | Ok, here is a more serious idea: TTY interface for deaf |
| 01:10.00 | dduardo | It kind of goes along with the idea proposed to help those that are blind |
| 01:10.00 | TRIsoft | It has BlueTooth, so you don't need an extra TTY port |
| 01:10.50 | dduardo | not tty in the unix sense |
| 01:10.52 | dduardo | http://www.abouttty.com/ |
| 01:10.57 | TRIsoft | Or use a USB->serial converter via the USB port |
| 01:11.16 | Paladine | bwahahahaha http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sw0riqzN1CM |
| 01:11.32 | TRIsoft | OK, got the idea |
| 01:12.08 | TRIsoft | Paladine: Yes, that's what i meant with the frag nade functionality |
| 01:12.31 | Paladine | thats the funniest thing I have ever seen come out of youtube |
| 01:12.50 | dduardo | I had the cheese gratter idea yesterday |
| 01:21.50 | dduardo | Why software engineers shouldn't try to sing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3xbj_KZWFs |
| 01:22.20 | Paladine | hey I used to be a professional singer thank you very much |
| 01:22.23 | Paladine | even been on tv :p |
| 01:22.40 | Zer0Her0 | ;-) |
| 01:22.49 | Paladine | I said professional :p |
| 01:23.04 | Zer0Her0 | ok just making sure that's not what you consider professional |
| 01:23.04 | dduardo | you also said "used to be" |
| 01:23.20 | Paladine | yeah I got coupled |
| 01:23.24 | Paladine | now my guitars are in the closet |
| 01:23.45 | Zer0Her0 | i had one guy claim he was a director, but only released his "work" on youtube |
| 01:23.58 | Paladine | hehehe |
| 01:24.24 | edwardocallaghan | software engineers is a serial killer |
| 01:24.29 | Paladine | well I was in a touring band for 2 years, did live music on a pbs channel in california and had a bunch ofrecording on mp3.com |
| 01:24.35 | Zer0Her0 | but that's cool(really don't mean to be demeaning your work) |
| 01:24.49 | Paladine | but nowadays I just annoy the neighbours when the missus is out ;) |
| 01:24.53 | Zer0Her0 | hmm i don't think i used demeaning properly there, but you get what i mean. |
| 01:26.04 | MacNorth | one reason software engineers should try to sing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4TnhemCEmc |
| 01:26.43 | Paladine | Zer0Her0, naah no worries, only morons get offended online ;) |
| 01:27.08 | Zer0Her0 | true |
| 01:30.15 | edwardocallaghan | make it stop |
| 01:30.23 | edwardocallaghan | See you guys later |
| 01:30.24 | *** part/#openmoko edwardocallaghan (n=edward@host86-129-163-67.range86-129.btcentralplus.com) |
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| 02:25.38 | edwardocallaghan | Still no news? |
| 02:26.11 | WillySilly | nope |
| 02:26.28 | edwardocallaghan | When does the 'day' end then? |
| 02:26.37 | WillySilly | no clue |
| 02:27.00 | WillySilly | we're all clueless about it |
| 02:27.46 | edwardocallaghan | http://www.time.gov/timezone.cgi?Central/d/-6/java |
| 02:27.55 | edwardocallaghan | Java to the rescue |
| 02:28.50 | edwardocallaghan | http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/time-zone/usa/central-time/ |
| 02:30.43 | edwardocallaghan | looks like they have time |
| 02:31.02 | edwardocallaghan | This phone is taking way too long for its own good |
| 02:31.20 | edwardocallaghan | Its going to be over before its begun |
| 02:34.07 | WillySilly | looks bad when you cant even keep your own word |
| 02:35.31 | edwardocallaghan | What they could be doing now is improving there site |
| 02:35.52 | edwardocallaghan | and building a community around it ready for the phone |
| 02:36.20 | edwardocallaghan | The have a SDK for it on the site so people can be doing things... |
| 02:38.24 | Vegar | "Central Time" |
| 02:38.27 | Vegar | is that GMT? |
| 02:38.37 | edwardocallaghan | no |
| 02:38.46 | edwardocallaghan | that's stupid |
| 02:39.22 | edwardocallaghan | Greenwich Mean Time. The time at Greenwich, England |
| 02:39.37 | Vegar | UTC? |
| 02:39.44 | edwardocallaghan | Central Standard Time (CST) |
| 02:40.27 | *** join/#openmoko stryderjzw (n=stryderj@216.232.85.137) |
| 02:40.28 | Vegar | australian or north american CST? |
| 02:41.05 | edwardocallaghan | US I would think |
| 02:41.32 | Vegar | UTC-6 then |
| 02:42.04 | edwardocallaghan | http://pastebin.com/863330 |
| 02:42.29 | edwardocallaghan | Sorry wrong place |
| 02:45.27 | *** join/#openmoko cephdon (n=cephdon@67.189.103.254) |
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| 02:53.56 | parag0n | Roadmap? |
| 02:54.06 | spikebik1 | nope |
| 02:54.11 | parag0n | :( |
| 02:56.15 | *** join/#openmoko eikonos_ (n=eikonos@S0106001310d36705.gv.shawcable.net) |
| 03:09.59 | edwardocallaghan | What a wast of time |
| 03:10.29 | edwardocallaghan | I look forward to my trip to Australia |
| 03:10.45 | *** join/#openmoko zqx3 (n=bill@c-67-190-144-184.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 03:14.11 | noidd | Knock Knock |
| 03:14.12 | Mortimus | whats near |
| 03:14.29 | noidd | the format of the joke is "Who's there?" |
| 03:14.31 | noidd | :-) |
| 03:14.33 | noidd | Knock Knock |
| 03:15.18 | Mortimus | i know but i think you should work for it |
| 03:15.29 | noidd | screw it |
| 03:15.31 | Mortimus | what's there |
| 03:15.34 | noidd | no announcement i'massuming |
| 03:18.01 | *** join/#openmoko rex (n=jpomeroy@dsl081-003-037.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 03:22.11 | edwardocallaghan | I hate the endianness of x86 |
| 03:22.33 | edwardocallaghan | SPARC ASM rules |
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| 03:31.17 | spikebik1 | alpha asm rules |
| 03:34.05 | edwardocallaghan | Alpha's where cool but they are dead now :( |
| 03:34.13 | edwardocallaghan | MIPS are cool |
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| 04:11.35 | *** join/#openmoko ninHer (n=ninHer@unaffiliated/ninher) |
| 04:13.34 | *** join/#openmoko cld2 (n=cliff@cpe-76-171-131-190.socal.res.rr.com) |
| 04:16.48 | *** join/#openmoko unlink (n=unlink@unaffiliated/unlink) |
| 04:24.47 | *** join/#openmoko vargr_ (n=vargr_@host181.155.212.179.conversent.net) |
| 04:25.01 | vargr_ | Hey folks! |
| 04:25.11 | vargr_ | Did I, uh, miss any announcements? |
| 04:25.27 | WillySilly | nope |
| 04:25.50 | vargr_ | bummer |
| 04:26.33 | edwardocallaghan | They have 1:30min left |
| 04:26.56 | edwardocallaghan | But I think they have fucked everyone off |
| 04:27.18 | edwardocallaghan | Its the point... Just say a data that you mean |
| 04:27.45 | edwardocallaghan | %s/Its/What's/ |
| 04:27.57 | vargr_ | maybe the announcement includes the whole SDK or something? |
| 04:28.25 | WillySilly | who knows |
| 04:28.29 | cld2 | so we are still waiting? |
| 04:29.03 | WillySilly | I hope so, because I have some ideas floating around |
| 04:29.05 | edwardocallaghan | No, I am playing with my SPARC Workstation |
| 04:29.08 | WillySilly | cld2: Suppose |
| 04:29.44 | WillySilly | Although I wouldnt hold your breath for an announcement |
| 04:29.44 | cld2 | :) what are you running on this sparc? |
| 04:29.46 | vargr_ | I guess it WOULD be kind of amusing if they waited until the last minute. |
| 04:29.52 | vargr_ | Maybe there's a ball to drop or something. |
| 04:30.18 | cld2 | haha, at 4 seconds to go. bam refreshed. |
| 04:32.16 | edwardocallaghan | yea right |
| 04:32.28 | edwardocallaghan | They would not want to pay for the traffic |
| 04:32.37 | unlink | rwhitby: do you happen to know why an rsync to the nslu2 running over dropbear might hang when the transfer is complete, when authentication is done with public keys? |
| 04:32.51 | edwardocallaghan | I run my Desktop on a Sun Blade 2000 |
| 04:33.04 | vargr_ | When folks were noting that they didn't say WHICH Friday - well, it was funny at the time. |
| 04:33.10 | edwardocallaghan | Solaris Express |
| 04:34.48 | edwardocallaghan | ZFS is wicked ! |
| 04:34.56 | cld2 | indeed it is. |
| 04:35.14 | cld2 | ZFS and Dtrace I think make solaris a contender again. |
| 04:35.38 | edwardocallaghan | Yes |
| 04:35.54 | cld2 | oh and zones. zones are pretty freaking sweet |
| 04:36.01 | edwardocallaghan | www.gnusolaris.org/ I think this project is going to kick off soon... |
| 04:37.19 | cld2 | wow, what a Frankenstein, I like it :) thats the thing I fell solaris is missing is something like apt |
| 04:37.51 | edwardocallaghan | Yes it stopes it being used on the Desktop |
| 04:38.04 | edwardocallaghan | But that takes the best of both |
| 04:38.10 | cld2 | and its kind of annoying from a server standpoint |
| 04:38.25 | edwardocallaghan | Solaris ? |
| 04:38.45 | cld2 | yeah, solairs, with no apt type deal |
| 04:39.18 | edwardocallaghan | no... good admin's should always review patchs before then apply them system wide |
| 04:39.44 | cld2 | edwardocallaghan: I agree, but im talking about software not patches. |
| 04:41.04 | edwardocallaghan | Well I had some problems working out how to setup a simple Apache/MySQL/PHP server |
| 04:41.04 | edwardocallaghan | Until I found coolstacks |
| 04:41.05 | cld2 | blah, tv time. maybe next friday? |
| 04:41.05 | cld2 | yeah coolstacks is nice. |
| 04:41.05 | edwardocallaghan | But they need more docs to go with them |
| 04:41.34 | edwardocallaghan | lol |
| 04:41.42 | edwardocallaghan | Going to bed now |
| 04:41.56 | edwardocallaghan | Getting use to Australia times |
| 04:42.22 | *** join/#openmoko emfox (n=emfox@220.205.110.191) |
| 04:42.49 | edwardocallaghan | Good night |
| 04:43.03 | edwardocallaghan | See you next Friday maybe :p |
| 04:43.29 | *** part/#openmoko edwardocallaghan (n=edward@host86-129-163-67.range86-129.btcentralplus.com) |
| 04:47.16 | *** join/#openmoko pergamon (n=pergamon@andromeda.dapyr.net) |
| 04:47.31 | pergamon | still no announcement? |
| 04:47.39 | aloril | topic not changed, no announcemenet? well still about 1.2h left ;-) |
| 04:49.00 | pergamon | vaporphone? |
| 04:49.13 | emfox | hello, I'm new here, what's the "ann... today" meaning? |
| 04:50.46 | aloril | phone certainly exists |
| 04:53.11 | *** join/#openmoko netx (n=rlange@osiris.darkempire.org) |
| 04:56.26 | aloril | emfox: there should be announcement at mailing list at Friday |
| 04:56.41 | aloril | about 1h left of it at CST time ;-) |
| 04:57.05 | emfox | aloril: o, it's really a good news! |
| 04:58.01 | WillySilly | thats if they release it |
| 04:58.12 | aloril | emfox: I suspect it might be Havaiji time though or ... dunno, they were reportedly writing it yesterday and it needed review |
| 04:58.23 | spikebik1 | man, I can understand hardware/software delays |
| 04:58.32 | spikebik1 | but missing deadlines without so much as a peep sucks |
| 04:58.49 | aloril | ah.. I don't think anything is released today/this week, only announcement that tells more info about what is planned |
| 04:58.53 | spikebik1 | even if it needs review they could say so |
| 04:59.25 | WillySilly | spikebik1: I agree |
| 05:00.06 | WillySilly | Makes it look very unprofessional |
| 05:00.16 | *** join/#openmoko tg (i=tg@x-net.hu) |
| 05:00.18 | aloril | about phone, topic says: "Neo1973 ETA for early access: February 2007" |
| 05:00.40 | vargr_ | how about an announcement postponing the announcement? |
| 05:01.35 | aloril | about announcement and review: that was said yesterday |
| 05:02.46 | aloril | (or today CST) |
| 05:03.46 | aloril | I think we will hear more when people awake |
| 05:07.36 | spikebik1 | thanksfully there are at least 7 other linux phones. |
| 05:07.51 | aloril | I think this is only open one |
| 05:08.02 | emfox | spikebik1: what's them? |
| 05:08.05 | spikebik1 | define open? |
| 05:08.15 | spikebik1 | motorola provides full kernel source |
| 05:08.22 | spikebik1 | devel tools |
| 05:08.24 | aloril | source code available and freely hackable for almost everything |
| 05:08.33 | spikebik1 | source code for most of the user space stuff |
| 05:08.42 | aloril | spikebik1: motorola doesn't provide source for interface AFAIK |
| 05:08.55 | spikebik1 | and works with a large base or existing applications (java) |
| 05:08.57 | Paladine | any roadmap yet? |
| 05:09.00 | spikebik1 | nope |
| 05:09.20 | aloril | spikebik1: motorola provides source for apps? I though it doesn't |
| 05:12.15 | *** join/#openmoko rwhitby-treo (n=rwhitby@nslu2-linux/rwhitby) |
| 05:13.26 | spikebik1 | libvcalendar-R564_G_12.02.31P-r1.tar.gz |
| 05:13.32 | spikebik1 | libobex_R564_G_12.00.35P-r2.tar.gz |
| 05:13.36 | spikebik1 | libjpeg-6b-4.0.0.0401382.src.rpm |
| 05:13.41 | spikebik1 | libicalendar-R564_G_12.02.31P-r2.tar.gz |
| 05:14.27 | spikebik1 | modem-gprsv-R532_G_11.00.38P-r2.tar.gz |
| 05:15.07 | aloril | I have seen him update topic quite fast, but he is sleeping now, based on past I think it might be 5-10h before we know more about announcement (if its not already appeared in mailing list) |
| 05:16.12 | aloril | btw.. I have no info myself, just lurker here ;-) |
| 05:16.48 | spikebik1 | it will be after friday central before I return |
| 05:16.51 | spikebik1 | I hold out 1% hope |
| 05:17.15 | rwhitby-treo | it would be very easy for someone to put up a hoax site right now and fool a whole lot of people ... |
| 05:18.00 | *** join/#openmoko twoblackeyes (n=blackeye@pool-71-255-62-38.nycmny.east.verizon.net) |
| 05:19.38 | spikebik1 | that would be funny |
| 05:19.41 | spikebik1 | faster cpu |
| 05:19.45 | spikebik1 | camera |
| 05:19.47 | spikebik1 | wifi |
| 05:19.54 | spikebik1 | shipping in 2 weeks |
| 05:22.00 | *** join/#openmoko rwhitby- (n=rwhitby@vg28.vodafone.com.au) |
| 05:45.42 | Psi | haha yeah |
| 05:46.09 | aloril | worse: order now, please enter cc details ... |
| 05:46.19 | aloril | not that I would be fooled ;-) |
| 05:46.39 | Psi | i think most ppl on here would be smart enough to check for legit-ness before handing over cc details |
| 05:46.56 | aloril | I think so too |
| 05:53.10 | *** join/#openmoko eikonos (n=eikonos@S0106001310d36705.gv.shawcable.net) |
| 06:02.24 | aloril | not anymore Friday CST |
| 06:02.52 | aloril | now.. 3 more days to account for slow mail server ;-) |
| 06:03.09 | WillySilly | heh |
| 06:03.49 | ozamosi | Well... The best thing about "today" is that it moves through tim |
| 06:03.51 | ozamosi | *time |
| 06:03.58 | aloril | yeah |
| 06:08.46 | WillySilly | http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-January/000000.html |
| 06:08.48 | WillySilly | its up |
| 06:09.08 | *** topic/#openmoko by WillySilly -> OpenMoko Developer Lounge | http://www.openmoko.com | http://lists.openmoko.org | Neo1973 ETA for early access: February 2007 | Wifi: No, Multitouch: No, Bluetooth: Yes | Direct-Sale World Wide | No Preorders yet | 2007 Roadmap Announcement: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-January/000000.html |
| 06:09.08 | *** topic/#openmoko by ChanServ -> OpenMoko Developer Lounge | http://www.openmoko.com | http://lists.openmoko.org | Neo1973 ETA for early access: February 2007 | Wifi: No, Multitouch: No, Bluetooth: Yes | Direct-Sale World Wide | No Preorders yet | 2007 Roadmap Announcement Today (Central Time) |
| 06:09.26 | WillySilly | finally |
| 06:09.41 | aloril | great! |
| 06:10.54 | aloril | fast mail server < 10 minutes late ;-) |
| 06:12.05 | *** join/#openmoko greentux_nokia (n=greentux@tmo-035-206.customers.d1-online.com) |
| 06:12.08 | WillySilly | to its pushed back to march now |
| 06:15.35 | spikebik1 | er |
| 06:15.40 | spikebik1 | oh chanserv is being lame |
| 06:15.45 | *** join/#openmoko doc|home (n=doc@skynet.skynet.ie) |
| 06:22.10 | *** join/#openmoko johnny67 (n=johnny67@S0106000475d5b7c2.vn.shawcable.net) |
| 06:23.44 | aloril | hmm.. everybody can get emulated Neo1973 February? ;-) |
| 06:24.01 | spikebik1 | dunnoo |
| 06:24.06 | spikebik1 | the mention source code |
| 06:24.10 | spikebik1 | they |
| 06:24.17 | *** join/#openmoko _llll_ (i=llll@tomaw.net) |
| 06:25.01 | spikebik1 | the wiki no workie 8-( |
| 06:25.33 | Psi | i wonder if Phase-1 will be available to anyone who calls themself a developer, or if there will be requirement |
| 06:26.08 | spikebik1 | I suspect it will be demostrated developers |
| 06:26.15 | *** join/#openmoko ray (i=ray@tapthru/operator/ray) |
| 06:26.16 | spikebik1 | i.e. contributers to mobile aps or OE |
| 06:26.19 | aloril | so for masses it will available roughly same time as iPhone in Europe ;-) |
| 06:26.21 | Psi | phase-1 defintly is |
| 06:26.28 | Psi | sorry, phase 0 |
| 06:26.42 | noidd | man, March ;-P |
| 06:26.49 | noidd | I'm not even going to ask for the free phone |
| 06:26.57 | noidd | I'm happy to pay for the phone in Feb :-) |
| 06:27.06 | Psi | thats what i mean |
| 06:27.13 | Psi | will anyone be able to buy it in march |
| 06:27.21 | noidd | anyone |
| 06:27.30 | noidd | at least that;s how I read it |
| 06:27.49 | Psi | the march phase (phase1) says "We are specifically targeting open source community developers." |
| 06:27.58 | noidd | I read it as being "March for devs". "September we call it a non-developer platform" |
| 06:28.02 | Psi | im wondering what that means exactly |
| 06:28.18 | noidd | Psi: ie - not everything will work fully in March |
| 06:28.27 | Psi | yeah |
| 06:28.36 | noidd | whereas, everything ill be working by Sept so it can be sold in stores around the world to the non-techs |
| 06:28.42 | Psi | so you think anyone will be able to buy it in march if they want? |
| 06:28.46 | noidd | Yes |
| 06:28.52 | Psi | thats what im hoping |
| 06:29.32 | spikebik1 | yeah to begin with I expect it to boot, make and receive calls, and maybe a stupid address book |
| 06:29.56 | doc|home | is it going to come with a jre? |
| 06:29.56 | noidd | I'm glad the websites are opening up soon tho |
| 06:30.03 | Psi | it supposed to have a calendar too |
| 06:30.05 | doc|home | or is that too large? |
| 06:30.12 | noidd | there is a jre in oe |
| 06:30.17 | doc|home | nice, thanks |
| 06:30.32 | noidd | whether its installed by default I don't know but you can ipkg install it |
| 06:30.45 | doc|home | cool |
| 06:31.05 | spikebik1 | I haven't seen them mention java |
| 06:31.15 | spikebik1 | but no reason you couldn't add it |
| 06:31.17 | spikebik1 | it's GPL |
| 06:31.25 | spikebik1 | and there's plenty of ram |
| 06:31.42 | aloril | http://planet.openmoko.org/ works |
| 06:32.18 | aloril | yeah, I guess Java is one of things that won't be in March release (or at least not in February one), but most likely will be in September release |
| 06:32.38 | Paladine | I see we have a roadmap now :) |
| 06:33.26 | aloril | seems http://projects.openmoko.org/ doesn't exists at all yet, but other non available ones exits for those who know passwords |
| 06:34.28 | spikebik1 | ANd doesn't for those that don't 8-( |
| 06:34.37 | doc|home | aloril: no worries, can be working on my idea in the meantime |
| 06:35.28 | aloril | doc|home: yup, I hope to get something done before Feb source release and then finalize it |
| 06:38.14 | aloril | summary: 2007-02-11 source available, official wiki open, etc.. and for select developers free phone |
| 06:38.25 | aloril | 2007-03-11 any developer can get phone with money |
| 06:38.41 | aloril | 2007-09-11 phone is released officially |
| 06:39.10 | Psi | except we aren't 100% sure if "developer" means anyone or not |
| 06:39.44 | aloril | Psi: why would they restrict it artificially? |
| 06:39.44 | *** join/#openmoko inivex (n=Eachan@38.sub-70-209-100.myvzw.com) |
| 06:40.14 | Psi | maybe, availability |
| 06:40.38 | spikebik1 | well |
| 06:40.43 | aloril | Psi: hmm... well its big company, it can produce enough of them according to Sean |
| 06:40.44 | cbpage | i think the difference is that the march and sept releases are levels of marketing |
| 06:40.45 | spikebik1 | it might need some hand holding from them |
| 06:40.54 | *** join/#openmoko rwhitby-treo (i=www-data@nslu2-linux/rwhitby) |
| 06:40.56 | cbpage | so anyone *could* get it in march but it won't be marketed to everyone ;0 |
| 06:41.03 | spikebik1 | so until some docs are written and some bugs removed they will keep the population small |
| 06:41.09 | Psi | cbpage, thats what i'm hoping |
| 06:41.20 | aloril | Psi: just that if they underestimate demand -> 6 week lead time for many parts |
| 06:41.39 | *** join/#openmoko thedaniel (n=daniel@adsl-75-5-10-114.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 06:42.09 | Psi | i imagine they are going to get a large number of people wanting to purchase it in march |
| 06:42.29 | Psi | maybe so many, that they will have to go through and decide who gets it now and who gets it later |
| 06:42.32 | inivex | i want to wait until it has wifi |
| 06:42.40 | doc|home | are the screenshots mockups or real? |
| 06:44.12 | rwhitby-treo | 11 Feb. Sweet. |
| 06:44.32 | thedaniel | <PROTECTED> |
| 06:45.28 | aloril | there were some hints in this: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001071.html |
| 06:45.40 | aloril | "We'll be four months into collaborative development before the public even gets an iPhone." |
| 06:46.35 | aloril | "... six weeks lead-time... manufacturing is not an issue for us ;-)" http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001162.html |
| 06:47.17 | rwhitby-treo | heh - all those people saying they will wait until wifi will ease the demand :-) |
| 06:47.23 | cbpage | lol |
| 06:47.30 | aloril | doc|home: I think they are mockups, but real is close (but I don't have phone) |
| 06:47.39 | *** join/#openmoko inive1 (n=Eachan@38.sub-70-209-100.myvzw.com) |
| 06:47.44 | cbpage | i'll be about six months into playing with mine by the time a wifi one might get out |
| 06:47.58 | aloril | yeah, I think version with wifi will be announce 2007-09-11 |
| 06:48.09 | aloril | s/announce/announced/ |
| 06:48.30 | aloril | and it will be only for those that have been playing I think ;-) |
| 06:48.37 | inive1 | i think it will be worth the wait |
| 06:48.39 | aloril | for public, it might be much longer |
| 06:49.32 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (i=foobar@dslb-084-057-147-025.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 06:49.34 | aloril | what I mean is that if you developed cool app for v1, there is good chance you get WiFi version at September for free |
| 06:49.37 | cbpage | i probably would have gotten it with just usb linking, although i really did want bluetooth to make it in |
| 06:49.44 | inive1 | i wish i had the knowledge and experience to be a REAL dev |
| 06:49.59 | rwhitby-treo | "that will repeat annually" indicates wifi will be released to the public on 200*8*-09-11 |
| 06:50.06 | cbpage | yeah |
| 06:52.43 | inive1 | what did you write? |
| 06:53.08 | rwhitby-treo | inive1: I founded and lead nslu2-linux.org |
| 06:53.46 | aloril | rwhitby-treo: you sound quite sure thing |
| 06:54.03 | rwhitby-treo | I first intend to make the USD$80 Linksys NSLU2 the ideal power-efficient, silent, usb and bluetooth (via usb dongle) server for connectivity for the neo. |
| 06:55.28 | rwhitby-treo | (so you can just put an NSLU2 with BT dongle on each network that you're usually around, and have seamless mobility via BT networking as GPRS is 2c/*Kb (yes Kb, not Mb) here in Australia. |
| 06:55.55 | cbpage | yeah i think you'll get one for sure ;) |
| 06:57.46 | doc|home | by the way, this thing comes with the ability to take sim cards, right? I wouldn't ask but just moved to canada and some providers here give phones which are simless (nice lock-in) |
| 06:58.18 | doc|home | aloril: thanks for replying |
| 06:59.31 | rwhitby-treo | doc|home: definitely gsm with sim card |
| 06:59.48 | spikebik1 | I don't know that gen 2 has been announced with wifi |
| 07:00.00 | rwhitby-treo | it hasn't |
| 07:00.21 | rwhitby-treo | mickey|away had already said the announcement would not mention v2 at all |
| 07:00.34 | doc|home | rwhitby-treo: thanks |
| 07:00.52 | spikebik1 | not sure wifi is justified |
| 07:01.05 | *** join/#openmoko emfo1 (n=emfox@220.202.74.195) |
| 07:01.10 | rwhitby-treo | (and quite rightly so - if you're not willing to be part of the revolution unless wifi is in, then you not getting what the revolution is all about) |
| 07:01.13 | *** join/#openmoko stryderjzw (n=stryderj@216.232.85.137) |
| 07:01.19 | cbpage | except for the "it's a smart phone so it *needs* wifi" crowd |
| 07:01.31 | inive1 | no, i just can't afford it |
| 07:01.39 | inive1 | if it had wifi, it would be worth refinancing my house |
| 07:01.44 | spikebik1 | well I suspect flat rate fast edge or 3g will become standard |
| 07:02.06 | spikebik1 | how much bandwidth does a 100 gram device with a 2.9" screen need? |
| 07:02.07 | inive1 | i just found out about the project last week, and i bought a blackberry 8100 two months ago |
| 07:02.07 | cbpage | i can't think of any phone that's taken bluetooth as far as it'll go |
| 07:02.41 | cbpage | i think edge and/or 3g would be quite useful - remember it can be tethered to a pc which can eat up all the bandwidth easily |
| 07:02.57 | doc|home | spikebik1: gigabytes! ;) |
| 07:03.04 | spikebik1 | right |
| 07:03.05 | cbpage | and in the far future a third/fourth gen neo would have enough power to decode 480p video... |
| 07:03.09 | spikebik1 | but the pc can use wifi |
| 07:03.33 | cbpage | not always ;) |
| 07:03.51 | aloril | inive1: you can get wifi for v1 phone: just add usb power and wifi usb stick |
| 07:04.16 | aloril | inive1: I bet addon marked for that will happen soon after release ;-) |
| 07:04.17 | cbpage | if you're on a bus or train those wifi links are very short lived |
| 07:05.01 | Psi | i think it would be easier to setup your house with a highpower bluetooth hub, than add wifi to the v1 phone |
| 07:05.12 | spikebik1 | I'd rather invest the battery and extra effort into a better gsm setup |
| 07:05.16 | cbpage | prolly |
| 07:05.37 | spikebik1 | quad band not tri |
| 07:05.38 | cbpage | then again if i'm at home i don't mind plugging in the USB and doing all the work remotely |
| 07:05.45 | cbpage | uh isn't it quad? |
| 07:05.49 | spikebik1 | edge or better not gprs |
| 07:06.02 | aloril | spikebik1: v1 is quad band already (but only grps) |
| 07:06.06 | inive1 | isn't edge faster than gprs? |
| 07:06.10 | cbpage | yeah |
| 07:06.46 | cbpage | still high latency though |
| 07:07.09 | spikebik1 | high latency = ? |
| 07:07.18 | cbpage | 500+ milliseconds |
| 07:07.25 | cbpage | maybe 400ish for edge |
| 07:07.31 | spikebik1 | wow |
| 07:07.43 | cbpage | i think hspda finally cuts that a lot |
| 07:08.16 | spikebik1 | various 3G networks do better? |
| 07:08.16 | cbpage | so yeah 3g > wifi... except that 3g networks in the us will have weird frequencies anyway |
| 07:08.18 | cbpage | *for me, 3g > wifi |
| 07:08.51 | inive1 | yeah, but i'm looking for the ability to connect to existing wireless networks |
| 07:09.09 | cbpage | *nod* i use my cell to get on the net when nothing else can ;) |
| 07:09.28 | Psi | 3G neo would allow me to create fake videocalls between two neos and use them to establish a very cheap data connection |
| 07:09.31 | inive1 | /name inivex |
| 07:09.43 | Melkman|sleep | ah, I have an announcement in my mail... |
| 07:09.45 | cbpage | sweet |
| 07:11.14 | *** join/#openmoko inivex (n=Eachan@38.sub-70-209-100.myvzw.com) |
| 07:11.20 | inivex | gaim hates me |
| 07:11.22 | Melkman | so 11 feb early dev access... |
| 07:11.38 | cbpage | another thing - at least for linux users - is that you could use the phone's gps data to determine which wifi access point to try to use at a given time |
| 07:11.58 | cbpage | and... perhaps even feed the wifi data back to the phone, so that at least when your laptop's open the phone kinda has wifi ;) |
| 07:12.06 | cbpage | *over bluetooth |
| 07:12.20 | aloril | 2007-02-11: Sunday, 2007-03-11: Sunday, 2007-09-11: Tuesday |
| 07:12.40 | cbpage | i think the last date might change, myself ;) |
| 07:13.04 | cbpage | but i want in on the 3/11 release |
| 07:13.34 | aloril | I bet it will be available whole time between 2007-03-11 - 2007-09-11 for developers |
| 07:13.42 | cbpage | yup |
| 07:13.44 | aloril | I guess its just "warning, this is just developers release" |
| 07:13.52 | cbpage | indeed |
| 07:14.04 | cbpage | and the various niche markets that will definitely pop up |
| 07:14.44 | aloril | """don't go and write review like: "This is sucky phone and contains only these apps out of box." it is for developers only after all |
| 07:14.46 | aloril | """ |
| 07:14.51 | cbpage | ;) |
| 07:15.22 | *** join/#openmoko eikonos (n=eikonos@S0106001310d36705.gv.shawcable.net) |
| 07:15.29 | aloril | oh, and of course there is 6 months of grassroots marketing ;-) |
| 07:16.52 | aloril | I feel that iPhone might have gotten quite a competitor |
| 07:16.58 | cbpage | too bad it's impossible to add a radar system to the phone ;) then it would make it's own maps as you move along |
| 07:17.06 | aloril | March release: unlikely, but September ... |
| 07:17.15 | cbpage | we can hope so :) |
| 07:17.19 | *** join/#openmoko emfox (n=emfox@220.202.74.58) |
| 07:17.29 | aloril | cbpage: who says its impossible? it has unpowered usb host after all |
| 07:17.40 | cbpage | i was thinking within the phone ;) |
| 07:17.55 | Melkman | sigh,i don't think I'll qualify for 11 feb... so I'll have to wait more than a month :-( |
| 07:18.10 | ozamosi | Yes... The neards play with their neos for 6 months, and when they FINALLY work juuust like they (we) want, they (we) show their (our) friends, who says "wow, I'm impressed with what that phone can be made to do! I'm getting one!" :) |
| 07:18.19 | cbpage | then again a little more impossible past that and you get a tricorder |
| 07:18.32 | SubWolf | LOL |
| 07:18.33 | cbpage | *and* a communicator... take that star trek |
| 07:18.41 | inivex | except with less annoying sounds i hope |
| 07:18.47 | SubWolf | He's dead, Jim. |
| 07:19.06 | cbpage | of course - this is openmoko afterall |
| 07:19.23 | ozamosi | cbpage: it has gps, and openstreetmaps exists. For what would you use the radar? |
| 07:19.26 | cbpage | mp3 ringtones? no problem! |
| 07:19.57 | cbpage | to literally map out the environment (this is of course impossible - while openstreetmaps is real ;) ) |
| 07:20.08 | spikebik1 | openstreetmaps? |
| 07:20.31 | cbpage | i know some people who would be impressed with a simple phone with a very nice interface |
| 07:20.38 | aloril | hmm... mass-storage and windows, I guess there could be "amulate FAT for windows" program |
| 07:20.46 | cbpage | even the iPhone looks like it won't get that. |
| 07:20.53 | ozamosi | openstreetmap.org - people are doing their own maps with gps |
| 07:21.02 | aloril | or provide virtual FAT to upload mp3 ringtones, etc.. |
| 07:21.04 | ozamosi | Basicly - look at it, and you'll s |
| 07:21.07 | ozamosi | *see |
| 07:21.35 | spikebik1 | I will |
| 07:21.49 | Melkman | Maybe I'll use that month to write a little wrapper for comsat to get push mail with imap.... |
| 07:21.57 | spikebik1 | I've been using maemo mapper + google maps |
| 07:22.15 | inivex | i want to be able to do port scans from my phone, that would be fun |
| 07:22.44 | Melkman | nmao shouldn't be difficult to get running |
| 07:22.49 | Melkman | s/o/p |
| 07:23.08 | aloril | just reading last night logs so some (most?) have seen this already, but, hehe: http://img403.imageshack.us/my.php?image=neo1973announcementra2.jpg |
| 07:23.36 | Melkman | hehe |
| 07:25.43 | inivex | thats amusing |
| 07:38.04 | aloril | hi mickeyl (and you might want to update topic to include announcement) |
| 07:39.44 | *** join/#openmoko Sencer (i=Sencer@gateway/tor/x-21395c83ce37507e) |
| 07:43.43 | rwhitby-treo | hey mickeyl |
| 07:44.33 | Sencer | http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001586.html |
| 07:46.55 | sannes | oh noes, 11th march .. ugh |
| 07:47.09 | mickeyl | good morning |
| 07:47.16 | sannes | morning :) |
| 07:47.20 | sannes | ah |
| 07:47.21 | sannes | hhe |
| 07:47.26 | sannes | morning to all :) |
| 07:47.37 | *** topic/#openmoko by mickeyl -> OpenMoko Developer Lounge | http://www.openmoko.com | http://lists.openmoko.org | 2007 Roadmap: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-January/000000.html |
| 07:47.37 | *** topic/#openmoko by ChanServ -> OpenMoko Developer Lounge | http://www.openmoko.com | http://lists.openmoko.org | Neo1973 ETA for early access: February 2007 | Wifi: No, Multitouch: No, Bluetooth: Yes | Direct-Sale World Wide | No Preorders yet | 2007 Roadmap Announcement Today (Central Time) |
| 07:47.41 | mickeyl | mmh |
| 07:48.16 | *** topic/#openmoko by mickeyl -> OpenMoko Developer Lounge | http://www.openmoko.com | http://lists.openmoko.org | 2007 Roadmap: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-January/000000.html |
| 07:51.50 | *** join/#openmoko jteo (n=nerant@cm124.gamma227.maxonline.com.sg) |
| 07:51.57 | xkr47 | morning!!! |
| 07:52.05 | xkr47 | lol xkr47 came exactly at the right time :D |
| 07:52.38 | xkr47 | thank you mickeyl! |
| 07:58.06 | Scaramanga | GReat stuff! |
| 07:58.14 | Scaramanga | A very good read. |
| 07:59.11 | rwhitby-treo | xkr47: you were about 2 hours late ;-) |
| 08:00.32 | xkr47 | rwhitby-treo, with what -) |
| 08:02.28 | rwhitby-treo | xkr47: the announcement - you could have pee' yourself 2 hours ago instead ;-) |
| 08:02.49 | xkr47 | so the topic was changes only 2 hours later ?-) |
| 08:02.57 | xkr47 | :) |
| 08:05.47 | rwhitby-treo | something to read on your neo (via BT to your home network) each morning ... |
| 08:06.24 | xkr47 | rwhitby-treo, almost like rss ;) |
| 08:07.42 | rwhitby-treo | my first application for the treo (which hopefully will mostly be scripting existing apps) is to download a set of web pages each morning (including the overnight irc logs) for the read on the way to work on the bus |
| 08:07.52 | rwhitby-treo | s/treo/neo/ |
| 08:08.44 | rwhitby-treo | (no flat rate data plans in australia) |
| 08:17.48 | xkr47 | yeah.. should someone also update www.openmoko.com maybe... |
| 08:17.49 | *** join/#openmoko lucie (n=lucie@228.35.broadband5.iol.cz) |
| 08:18.50 | xkr47 | lol I wasn't the only one with peeing problems :) |
| 08:21.37 | *** join/#openmoko vics (n=vics@217.21.35.33) |
| 08:21.40 | *** join/#openmoko stryderjzw (n=stryderj@216.232.85.137) |
| 08:25.06 | aloril | record amount of nicks last night: 185 2007-01-19 23:23:41 |
| 08:27.39 | sannes | My first application/hack will be turning on sounds if the vibration do not work (because of charging), because that is what pissed me off the most :) |
| 08:28.57 | sannes | I don't even know if the neo1973 has that problem (all phones I have owned has this problem) .. |
| 08:32.48 | xkr47 | sannes, is that some common thing that vibration is off while charging ? |
| 08:34.11 | *** join/#openmoko buz (n=buz@80-218-148-33.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 08:34.19 | xkr47 | buz, morning |
| 08:36.32 | sannes | xkr47: :) |
| 08:37.08 | sannes | Why dbus-0.9 isn't the abi stable version 1.x out ? |
| 08:38.23 | ozamosi | I think the api was in practice stable for quite long before that... |
| 08:38.53 | xkr47 | :) |
| 08:39.02 | xkr47 | "stable enough for developers" |
| 08:39.17 | koen | good morning all |
| 08:39.27 | xkr47 | hi koen.. we are in luck :) |
| 08:39.45 | koen | yes |
| 08:39.55 | koen | if were are 'selected' |
| 08:40.39 | xkr47 | the chosen ones |
| 08:40.40 | xkr47 | :) |
| 08:41.16 | buz | that announcement sounds like it comes from fairyland |
| 08:41.49 | xkr47 | yeah :D |
| 08:41.57 | sannes | koen & xkr47 : are you one of those lucky people getting it 11th february then? |
| 08:42.19 | xkr47 | buz, at first it even sounded like the next sentence was going to be "Too bad it's not going to happen this time" |
| 08:42.20 | sannes | s/one/two/; |
| 08:42.40 | xkr47 | sannes, we are one of the lucky ones to know there is a future :) |
| 08:42.44 | buz | xkr47: well without the v8 it wont |
| 08:43.01 | buz | i would rather have known something about v2 |
| 08:43.08 | xkr47 | sannes, if I'm lucky, I'll be getting it in march |
| 08:43.11 | buz | that roadmap says like nothing at all |
| 08:43.33 | *** part/#openmoko comicinke1 (n=simeon@R07f3.r.pppool.de) |
| 08:43.43 | xkr47 | the roadmap says: please tell us what you want and we'll do our best |
| 08:44.47 | buz | like they dont know |
| 08:44.47 | ozamosi | buz: there's about one year until developers will get their v2:s (the roadmap was supposed to be the same for the comming years, but for other phones), so I relly, really doubt that ther is much to say about v2 yet. |
| 08:44.54 | xkr47 | I guess some online polls would be nice :) |
| 08:45.11 | buz | one device per year? thats ridiculous |
| 08:45.26 | xkr47 | ozamosi, yeah I got the impression that in 2007-09-11 they will tell us the preliminary specs for v2 and in 2008-02-11 it will be in phase 0 |
| 08:45.39 | buz | i thought so at first |
| 08:45.48 | buz | but that's a really weird life cycle for a phone |
| 08:45.59 | Sencer | the revolution is in the software, not the hardware |
| 08:46.03 | xkr47 | but as schedules go, I think it's probable that things change over time |
| 08:46.20 | Sencer | if it's a good succes other devices will surely follow in shorter time frames |
| 08:46.23 | MDK | boorad: ping |
| 08:46.43 | xkr47 | Sencer, world domination is in the hardware + software, probably everyone won't switch just because of software |
| 08:46.46 | xkr47 | ;) |
| 08:46.54 | xkr47 | Sencer, true |
| 08:47.19 | ozamosi | Also, when the software bas is more mature, stable and "portable", it will probably not need 6 months of general developer testing/development |
| 08:47.26 | ozamosi | s/bas/base |
| 08:47.37 | xkr47 | true |
| 08:47.38 | ozamosi | apt: tricked you :P |
| 08:48.16 | Sencer | xkr47: true. |
| 08:48.38 | sannes | I wonder what is worst, knowing that I have to wait untill 11th march or not knowing the date hoping for next week :P .. hm |
| 08:48.58 | koen | I suspect we'll have openmoko running on ezx phones in ~60 minutes after the recipes come online |
| 08:49.46 | MDK | did I miss some annoucement? |
| 08:49.54 | koen | the htc people will probable take a few months, with their NIH and unwillingness to ask help |
| 08:49.58 | xkr47 | koen, :) |
| 08:50.11 | koen | MDK: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-January/000000.html |
| 08:50.23 | xkr47 | koen, maybe we need a separate mailing lists for porting openmoko to new platforms.. |
| 08:51.05 | xkr47 | sannes, I see only brightness in all of this :) |
| 08:51.09 | Sencer | xkr47: and a seperate mailing list for wifi requests. This is going to be a loooong year.... *G* |
| 08:51.16 | xkr47 | :DD |
| 08:51.28 | xkr47 | rant@lists.open... |
| 08:52.10 | xkr47 | will they give access only to those that got the phone until 2006-09-11 |
| 08:52.19 | xkr47 | I mean write access |
| 08:52.24 | *** join/#openmoko Sum1 (n=Sum1@80.175.142.81) |
| 08:52.34 | MDK | oh, nicem nice |
| 08:52.55 | xkr47 | MDK, like in the matrix, "words can't describe, you've got to see it for yourself" |
| 08:53.21 | MDK | very nice & clear vision |
| 08:53.41 | MDK | hope one day maemo can reach similiar level of transparency |
| 08:53.52 | buz | if only the n800 had gsm |
| 08:55.12 | *** join/#openmoko Rac0r (n=Rac0r@p5081D59A.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 08:58.50 | aloril | I wonder how often stories like this will happen for Neo1973: http://hardware.slashdot.org/hardware/07/01/20/0350212.shtml |
| 09:00.03 | xkr47 | :) |
| 09:07.23 | koen | I are journalist: http://dominion.kabel.utwente.nl/koen/cms/news-from-fic |
| 09:08.13 | Psi | haha |
| 09:17.33 | xkr47 | koen, can we believe what you say ?-) |
| 09:18.09 | koen | :) |
| 09:21.07 | *** join/#openmoko l4rs (n=laprican@hsiproxy.astra-net.com) |
| 09:21.12 | *** join/#openmoko emfox (n=emfox@220.202.73.76) |
| 09:21.13 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@9.80-202-160.nextgentel.com) |
| 09:25.45 | xkr47 | hmm, I'm not informed about this hacker's lunchbox.. is it something that will be included when ordering a neo ? |
| 09:30.14 | xkr47 | koen, tried to add a comment on your blog but it didn't work out |
| 09:30.55 | Demitar | xkr47: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001006.html don't recall if it has been elaborated further from an official source so far. |
| 09:30.56 | koen | drat, those broke again? |
| 09:31.35 | xkr47 | Demitar, ok thx |
| 09:31.36 | koen | xkr47: http://dominion.kabel.utwente.nl/koen/cms/news-from-fic#comment-26 |
| 09:31.47 | xkr47 | that's better :) |
| 09:33.51 | buz | it just stroke me, worms could be a perfect game on a touchscreen |
| 09:34.01 | buz | and it's seriously addictive, too |
| 09:34.13 | xkr47 | and works over gprs too :) |
| 09:34.22 | xkr47 | (multiplayer of course :) |
| 09:34.32 | buz | you could even pass around a neo ;) |
| 09:34.48 | xkr47 | buz, :) |
| 09:34.55 | buz | you might even get away using qemu to run the dos worms1 |
| 09:35.25 | xkr47 | hehe |
| 09:35.26 | koen | dosbox! |
| 09:35.59 | buz | mhh does dosbox emulate the x86? |
| 09:36.10 | xkr47 | so.. should we collect a list of things we "still want to know" from mickeyl etc :) |
| 09:36.13 | buz | unlimited levels, great fun, 6mb |
| 09:36.21 | koen | buz: you can play dos games on arm with dosbox |
| 09:36.28 | buz | perfect |
| 09:36.35 | xkr47 | mickeyl, 1. what's the hackers lunchbox and the car kit? |
| 09:36.39 | buz | no need to port anything then |
| 09:36.49 | buz | is there even an open source worms clone? |
| 09:36.55 | koen | http://www.openembedded.org/repo/org.openembedded.dev/packages/dosbox/dosbox_0.63.bb :) |
| 09:37.14 | Sencer | nibbles? |
| 09:37.17 | xkr47 | mickeyl, 2. will you ship on 2006-03-11 to anyone claiming himself to be a developer? |
| 09:37.56 | xkr47 | buz, I once helped one friend assembly-optimize a worms clone called "duck mr duck" |
| 09:38.34 | buz | http://www.wormux.org/ |
| 09:39.09 | buz | thats totally cross platform |
| 09:40.08 | xkr47 | mickeyl, 3. will the phone charge only when connected with a USB Mini-B connector or also when connected with a USB Mini-A connector? |
| 09:40.54 | buz | yeah that even ships with ubuntu |
| 09:41.02 | buz | too bad it needs 40mb of hd |
| 09:41.28 | xkr47 | mickeyl, 4. the "unpowered usb" is a bit unclear.. I have read somewhere that some devices supply 5V but only for detection that usb is working, not for any kind of load.. is this how it actually works in Neo? |
| 09:42.40 | koen | xkr47: no 5v for detection |
| 09:42.58 | koen | it's rumoured that it's the same deal as for the n770 |
| 09:43.12 | *** join/#openmoko Laibsch (n=Laibsch@R763c.r.ppp-pool.de) |
| 09:43.31 | xkr47 | koen, is it different in n800 ? |
| 09:44.13 | koen | the n800 doesn't have usb host wired |
| 09:44.36 | xkr47 | oh |
| 09:45.05 | xkr47 | mickeyl, [4. clarification] i.e. will I be able to connect my digital camera (that has a battery of its own) to it without an additional power supply? |
| 09:45.14 | koen | xkr47: http://maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2007-January/007255.html |
| 09:45.58 | koen | xkr47: I suspect You'll need to supply 5V to get the phone to detect the camera |
| 09:46.09 | xkr47 | or the other way around :) |
| 09:46.38 | koen | ~lart USB |
| 09:46.46 | xkr47 | it would still be nice to know for sure.. so I can start preparing & soldering together what I need :) |
| 09:47.11 | xkr47 | I have not yet found a mini-usb-a to mini-usb-b cable anywhere here in finland |
| 09:47.41 | xkr47 | are these OTG devices really non-existent in finland or do they all come with cables included so nobody needs them? |
| 09:48.28 | xkr47 | mickeyl, [1. continuation] and what cables are shipped with the "basic" version? |
| 09:51.02 | ozamosi | poor guy... :) |
| 09:51.11 | xkr47 | wh me ?-) |
| 09:51.31 | xkr47 | s/ /o / |
| 09:52.36 | Psi | it would be nice if the neo could have had a usb port that had 5v on it, even if it was only 1mA, just enough so device could detect something was being connected |
| 09:53.01 | Psi | *have been |
| 09:53.06 | koen | Psi: the omap2 SoC have a charge pump to do that |
| 09:53.14 | xkr47 | yes.. maybe they could still do that ;-) |
| 09:53.22 | koen | the problem is that everything is 3.3 volt in those devices |
| 09:53.38 | xkr47 | it's easy to double the voltage if you don't need much power |
| 09:53.41 | koen | so you need a chargepump to get 5v |
| 09:53.54 | xkr47 | but I guess it might drain power a bit just to double it |
| 09:54.50 | xkr47 | hehe.. if you added a 1.5 volt minibattery in the phone, you could get 4.8V from 3.3 which would maybe just be in-spec :) |
| 09:55.16 | koen | usb has a spec? |
| 09:55.23 | xkr47 | lol |
| 10:06.32 | aloril | xkr47: maybe you can control when phone is actually charging? |
| 10:07.11 | aloril | (in addition to automatic one that current phones have you could manually turn it on/off) |
| 10:07.12 | xkr47 | dunno.. but that again gives the problem that "what if it runs out of battery and the phone doesn't have the power to make itself charge" |
| 10:07.25 | mickeyl | 1.) hackers lunchbox contains cool items for hackers. let's keep a couple of surprises |
| 10:07.42 | mickeyl | 1b) car kit contains windscreen holder and stuff |
| 10:07.47 | mickeyl | 2. yes |
| 10:07.53 | mickeyl | 3. no idea |
| 10:08.51 | *** join/#openmoko hugh (n=hugh@91.84.9.161) |
| 10:09.02 | xkr47 | \o/ |
| 10:09.02 | mickeyl | i can't remember what's in the three kits. i've seen photos but my memory faded |
| 10:09.19 | koen | 3 kits? |
| 10:09.25 | koen | lunch, car and normal? |
| 10:09.30 | xkr47 | yeah.. I just have a hard time finding mini-usb-a cables here.. |
| 10:10.39 | xkr47 | <neo1973 order form> [x] I want an 1m mini-usb-a to mini-usb-b cable included for $20 |
| 10:11.34 | mickeyl | koen: yep |
| 10:11.48 | xorAxAx | plus 50% rare-cable-tax |
| 10:11.52 | *** join/#openmoko emfox (n=emfox@220.205.110.37) |
| 10:13.13 | *** join/#openmoko vics (n=vics@217.21.35.33) |
| 10:13.43 | xkr47 | xorAxAx, sure :) |
| 10:14.11 | *** join/#openmoko TRIsoft (i=Mac@p57A2927D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 10:15.31 | *** join/#openmoko kabturek (n=trampek@223-dzi-4.acn.waw.pl) |
| 10:16.06 | kabturek | man they did write quite an announcement :) |
| 10:16.42 | sannes | hehe, still keeping secrets though :P |
| 10:16.44 | *** join/#openmoko lightyear (n=lightyea@p5487583C.dip.t-dialin.net) |
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| 10:20.42 | kabturek | didnt think they will say more :) |
| 10:21.11 | kabturek | so 11 march ... the question is .. will i survive with a broken phone to 11 of march :D |
| 10:21.38 | xkr47 | kabturek, go get a nokia 2110 until then ;---) |
| 10:21.55 | *** join/#openmoko ciastek (n=ciastek@procent.miedzylesie.waw.pl) |
| 10:23.09 | kabturek | xkr47: man not a nokia ;) i dont like nokia ( not talkin about thos symbian phones - theyre nice) |
| 10:23.33 | kabturek | but yeah i must think about smthing |
| 10:23.35 | xkr47 | it was a joke, a 2110 is a brick from 1995 :) |
| 10:24.09 | kabturek | i lilked the motorola with paper-display for 50$ but i dont think its out yet |
| 10:24.12 | *** join/#openmoko mikesh (n=mikesh@x133.net.upc.cz) |
| 10:24.12 | kabturek | lol ;) |
| 10:24.33 | xkr47 | http://www.gsmarena.com/nokia_2110-24.php |
| 10:24.38 | Laibsch | "2007-02-11 Phase 0: Developer Preview" You guys will start the initial phase on a Sunday? ;-) |
| 10:24.47 | xkr47 | Laibsch, :)) |
| 10:25.10 | kabturek | http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2006/11/28/moto_ships_motofone/ |
| 10:25.17 | so_solid_moo_ | Laibsch: it's an american date, it means 2nd Nov 2007 |
| 10:25.27 | xkr47 | Laibsch, they will probably finish the last build by friday and start making phones on saturday ;-) |
| 10:25.27 | so_solid_moo_ | that's a friday :o> |
| 10:25.39 | xkr47 | so_solid_moo_, lol |
| 10:25.39 | ciastek | yeah, motofone can be nice |
| 10:25.57 | kabturek | xkr47: nice one :) nice antenna ;) |
| 10:26.03 | Laibsch | so_solid_moo_: No, the Americans write different. It must be Japanese (and possibly Taiwan is same, I don't know) |
| 10:26.16 | xkr47 | kabturek, it can be pulled out 12cm even! |
| 10:26.23 | xorAxAx | it is the ISO notation, e.g. used in china |
| 10:27.52 | xkr47 | cool, the nokia 2110 had a 1110mAh battery and moko has 1200mAh :DD |
| 10:28.08 | xkr47 | (the 1110mAh battery - man it was big, big as my current phone :) |
| 10:30.05 | ozamosi | Hm... Interesting... Just a few weeks ago, I was under the impression that all new cool phones was 3G, but neither iPhone nor Neo1973 is. The interesting part is that I haven't seen Anyone complain about it... |
| 10:30.44 | *** join/#openmoko borg_ (n=olaf@80.149.17.21) |
| 10:31.28 | mickeyl | the neo1973 is a platform device. getting a relatively cheap phone into the hands of the developers to shape a new common linux phone platform is its mission. |
| 10:31.43 | mickeyl | unbelievable devices is scheduled for the next iteration |
| 10:31.49 | mickeyl | and i'm not kidding here... |
| 10:31.57 | ozamosi | Maybe I'm just very european :) |
| 10:33.18 | xorAxAx | multitouch devices without keys running os x? |
| 10:33.31 | xorAxAx | that would be unbelievable |
| 10:33.34 | mickeyl | indeed |
| 10:33.35 | sannes | ozamosi: "OpenMoko is doomed without 3G, can't live with that, will failed miserably " .. :P happy? |
| 10:33.56 | ozamosi | sannes: yes. Thank you. |
| 10:34.08 | mickeyl | heh |
| 10:35.52 | Laibsch | mickeyl: Seriously, is the launch really on Feb 11? |
| 10:36.21 | xkr47 | phase 1 countdown program: |
| 10:36.22 | xkr47 | perl -e '$|=1;$x='`date --date "2007-03-11 00:00:00 GMT" +%s`';while(1){$t=time();$d=$x-$t;$s=$d%60;$d/=60;$m=$d%60;$d/=60;$h=$d%24;$d/=24;printf("\r%d days %2d:%02d:%02d",$d,$h,$m,$s);sleep(1);}' |
| 10:36.52 | xkr47 | also available here: http://xkr47.outerspace.dyndns.org/tmp/phase1_countdown |
| 10:36.59 | sannes | To be quite honest, only people I have seen trying to hype 3G is providers selling "video calls" and such.. two friends tried it once (it was free for a while to get people hooked) and they were like.. "nah" .. |
| 10:37.05 | xkr47 | feel free to change the date to whatever :) |
| 10:37.09 | mickeyl | Laibsch: if we don't stumble over hardware problems that need a new revision, then yes. the current revision looks solid enough to get it into the hands of hardcore devels |
| 10:37.42 | Laibsch | mickeyl: Well, I ask since that is a Sunday and seemed rather odd. |
| 10:37.52 | Laibsch | Same for March 11. |
| 10:37.55 | mikesh | how many pieces of neo1973 will be avaible in phase1? |
| 10:38.25 | *** join/#openmoko davidv (n=davidv@203-206-128-239.perm.iinet.net.au) |
| 10:38.49 | mickeyl | Laibsch: don't take the dates too seriously. it's always +- 1 or 2 days |
| 10:38.59 | xkr47 | :) |
| 10:39.14 | TRIsoft | plus two days shipping and a week in customs :-( |
| 10:39.16 | mickeyl | mikesh: i don't remember that. might ask on the mailing list |
| 10:39.22 | mickeyl | ~lart customs |
| 10:39.58 | koen | in time for fosdem |
| 10:40.29 | xkr47 | 49 days, 13 hours.. :O |
| 10:41.19 | *** join/#openmoko emfo1 (n=emfox@220.205.110.122) |
| 10:44.00 | MDK | koen: do you know perhaps something about gcc 4.0 vs 4.1 differences? |
| 10:44.30 | koen | MDK: what kind of differences? |
| 10:44.31 | *** join/#openmoko tomjoad4500 (n=tomjoad4@adsl-70-130-201-119.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net) |
| 10:44.39 | koen | for arm gcc 4.1.0 vs 4.1.1 is a huge difference |
| 10:44.45 | MDK | yeah, I know |
| 10:44.59 | MDK | I want to use 4.1 for eabi, but gdc can be only patched against 4.0 |
| 10:45.21 | MDK | so I'm interested, if there are big changes in the internal language generation |
| 10:45.29 | MDK | or whatever the name is |
| 10:46.15 | MDK | I tried building it against the CodeSourcery's 3.4.4 + eabi but... |
| 10:46.29 | Psi | a phone with a pull-out (rolled up/flexible) 7" touchscreen would be pretty unbelievable :P |
| 10:46.30 | koen | eeeeew |
| 10:46.31 | MDK | the built gdc compiler segfaults from time to time |
| 10:46.36 | koen | csl toolchains should die |
| 10:46.40 | MDK | the should |
| 10:46.43 | MDK | *they |
| 10:46.55 | koen | gdc is the D compiler? |
| 10:47.11 | MDK | their gcc seems to be seriously altered |
| 10:47.17 | ozamosi | Psi: teleporters |
| 10:47.39 | MDK | and it's impossible to say where eabi support ends and where general "black-magic-patching" starts |
| 10:47.46 | MDK | koen: yeah, gnu D compiler |
| 10:47.51 | MDK | a frontend for gcc |
| 10:48.18 | Psi | ozamosi, hehe |
| 10:48.46 | *** join/#openmoko Rac0r (n=Rac0r@p5081D905.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 10:49.00 | ozamosi | I wonder why I wrote that in plural form. Maybe my subconcious told me one teleporter was too easy |
| 10:50.50 | Psi | it needs two so that the phone can teleport itself. |
| 10:51.01 | Psi | one half teleports the first half, then vice versa |
| 10:51.27 | koen | MDK: I suspect your best bet is to ask the D folks to update to 4.1.x |
| 10:52.38 | MDK | koen: yeah, I guess |
| 10:52.52 | koen | although the d folks might wait for 4.2.x |
| 10:53.10 | ozamosi | Ah, of course. |
| 10:53.24 | ozamosi | My startrek skills are seriously flawed :( |
| 10:53.34 | Psi | heh |
| 10:53.38 | mickeyl | It's on the top ten list of things I want to look into in Q3/Q4 this year |
| 10:54.28 | MDK | mickeyl: I got a fully working compiler that works on 770 |
| 10:54.31 | Psi | somehow i dont think your talking about the teleporting feature :P |
| 10:54.37 | mickeyl | MDK: sweet! |
| 10:54.38 | MDK | err, produces code that works on 770 |
| 10:54.40 | MDK | BUT |
| 10:54.47 | MDK | this is for the old legacy ARM |
| 10:54.59 | MDK | I'm having problems with -gnueabi |
| 10:56.00 | MDK | you can run old legacy arm on -gnueabi, but you need to statically-compile everything ;) |
| 10:56.08 | MDK | which sucks of course |
| 10:56.24 | MDK | err, statically-link |
| 11:00.18 | koen | if CONFIG_OABI_COMPAT is set in the kernel |
| 11:01.37 | Melkman | Are there already people working on a push mail client for the neo ? |
| 11:01.55 | koen | yes, FIC |
| 11:02.20 | koen | Melkman: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001593.html |
| 11:02.25 | cld2 | wow, so we got an announcement? |
| 11:02.34 | Psi | yeap |
| 11:02.40 | koen | cld2: see topic :) |
| 11:02.46 | cld2 | koen: just noticed |
| 11:02.49 | cld2 | fackin sweet. |
| 11:03.00 | ozamosi | A really neat tinymail client should be buildable... |
| 11:03.36 | ozamosi | That would give me a reason to try tinymail out, and learn the moko gui speciall thingys. |
| 11:05.30 | Psi | ozamosi, hehe, your comment about Startrek got me thinking of an LCARS interface for the neo |
| 11:07.04 | Melkman | ozamosi: I was also thinking along those lines. Only thing I'd want to add is a simple deamon on the mail server to notify the client of new mail. So you won't have to poll your server to save bandwidth |
| 11:07.56 | ozamosi | Melkman: that sounds like what the officiall client is, more or less (i don't know what anything in that mail means, but it sounds like what you say) |
| 11:07.56 | Melkman | would be very easy to implement by ISP's that already do imap (or pop even) |
| 11:08.02 | *** join/#openmoko tr2x (n=alvar@80-218-185-55.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 11:08.19 | koen | mickeyl: http://www.qoheleth.uklinux.net/blog/?p=139 is also a nice read |
| 11:08.31 | *** join/#openmoko Rac0r (n=Rac0r@p5081EE2D.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 11:08.47 | Melkman | if I look at funambol it's a complete framework for mail.. |
| 11:09.27 | *** join/#openmoko rgl (n=Rui@84.90.10.107) |
| 11:09.27 | rgl | hi |
| 11:09.27 | Melkman | I don't want an other mail setup on the server |
| 11:09.28 | rgl | will neo support some kind of j2me? |
| 11:09.50 | cld2 | after reading that im pumped up. |
| 11:10.23 | koen | rgl: if someone adds it to OpenEmbedded, yes |
| 11:10.26 | *** join/#openmoko parag0n (n=parag0n@popeshoe.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 11:11.29 | mickeyl | koen: ah yeah. thanks for the URL |
| 11:12.16 | rwhitby | Melkman: sounds like you want IMAP with IDLE support. |
| 11:12.43 | rwhitby | (assuming your GPRS connection is billed by volume and not by connection time) |
| 11:13.48 | ozamosi | MokoSlug? |
| 11:14.19 | koen | rwhitby: did you see http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS9048137234.html ? |
| 11:15.05 | rwhitby | koen: yep - been following that on l-a-k or debian-arm (forget which) |
| 11:15.40 | rwhitby | ozamosi: nslu2 firmware distribution targetted as a silent home server for openmoko |
| 11:16.05 | rgl | koen, humm, so we would be able to use any package for "normal" linux on it (the ones avail on OE)? like, using python-gtk? |
| 11:16.34 | ozamosi | Ah, ok. You've almost made me buy a nslu2, even though I already have multiple servers at home :) |
| 11:17.24 | rwhitby | ozamosi: MokoSlug will simply be a custom configuration of an existing OpenEmbedded distribution |
| 11:17.52 | rwhitby | (buy an nslu2 and bluetooth adapter, flash the mokoslug firmware, connect to it with your Neo) |
| 11:18.03 | koen | rwhitby: with not a task instead of a seperate firmware? |
| 11:18.52 | rwhitby | koen: well it will end up as separate firmware (i.e. an 8MB downloadable image, including Intel microcode) - how that firmware is built is yet to be decided. |
| 11:19.11 | koen | that's a bit inflexible, don't you think? |
| 11:19.24 | koen | with a task !nslu2 devices can benefit from it |
| 11:19.50 | rwhitby | koen: note that I didn't preclude a task. I just said that there would be an nslu2 image available for download |
| 11:20.07 | koen | rwhitby: just making sure |
| 11:20.22 | rwhitby | koen: wouldn't expect anything less ;-) |
| 11:21.20 | rwhitby | koen: but the task has to produce a rootfs less than 6.5MB, so it can all fit in flash on an nslu2. |
| 11:22.03 | koen | no, the task when used on top of a rootfs has to produce an image <6.5MB |
| 11:22.38 | rwhitby | right. the task can't push a minimal rootfs past 6.5MB. |
| 12:11.53 | *** join/#openmoko edwardocallaghan (n=edward@host86-140-98-89.range86-140.btcentralplus.com) |
| 12:14.49 | *** join/#openmoko zqx3 (n=bill@c-67-190-144-184.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 12:16.13 | *** join/#openmoko apakatt (n=apakatt@89.207.216.81.static.j.siw.siwnet.net) |
| 12:22.15 | edwardocallaghan | So how do I get my hands on this 'free' phone ? |
| 12:22.28 | edwardocallaghan | I would like to start making software ? |
| 12:22.51 | koen | see the instructions on http://www.openmoko.com |
| 12:22.56 | rwhitby | edwardocallaghan: first paragraph on openmoko.com |
| 12:24.18 | edwardocallaghan | OK, thanks |
| 12:24.27 | edwardocallaghan | Will have to email them soon |
| 12:25.10 | *** join/#openmoko meandtheshell (n=markus@85-124-175-9.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at) |
| 12:25.15 | rwhitby | you'd better hope it's not a FIFO queue :-) that's been up there for months. |
| 12:25.59 | koen | I hope they'll send one to select gtk, cairo and o-hand people as well |
| 12:28.43 | buz | i wonder if trolltech manages to get this oneto run qtopia stable |
| 12:28.52 | buz | with their own design they didnt really suceed ;) |
| 12:29.10 | koen | buz: shouldn't be too hard, qtopia is in OE as well |
| 12:29.36 | edwardocallaghan | qt is cool |
| 12:29.37 | buz | well reports about the greenphone indicate it's not stable |
| 12:29.38 | seaLne | koen: any idea about opie ii? there is very little info about it |
| 12:29.39 | buz | not at all |
| 12:30.01 | buz | qtopia is using framebuffer directly right? |
| 12:30.17 | seaLne | afaik |
| 12:30.19 | *** part/#openmoko vargr_ (n=vargr_@host181.155.212.179.conversent.net) |
| 12:30.19 | *** join/#openmoko vargr_ (n=vargr_@host181.155.212.179.conversent.net) |
| 12:30.39 | seaLne | isn't that the main difference? |
| 12:30.52 | koen | buz: insisting on direct fb access means cutting yourself off from usefull desktop technology |
| 12:31.08 | koen | buz: and from devices that don't have a framebuffer |
| 12:31.39 | buz | well on the neo you have enough hardware to forego qtopia and use qt itself |
| 12:31.51 | koen | indeed |
| 12:32.01 | koen | it would be nice to see qt4/x11 apps on it |
| 12:32.03 | buz | 128mb ram will greatly help with that |
| 12:32.42 | edwardocallaghan | :p |
| 12:32.53 | seaLne | koen: what would you say the main argument between qtopia/qt would be just the ability to use the gtk stuff? |
| 12:33.44 | koen | regular X stuff as well, like Xv, Xvmc, composite, etc |
| 12:33.49 | buz | actually, the mean reason is that qt is not LGPL |
| 12:34.07 | buz | i guess it is, anyway |
| 12:34.08 | seaLne | depends if you consider that good or bad |
| 12:34.25 | buz | if you're building a platform, it's bad |
| 12:34.49 | buz | it is also most likely why the enterprise distro all went gnome |
| 12:35.30 | koen | and the fact that enterprise people get scared by having to tweak a zillion options before it becomes useable |
| 12:35.39 | koen | that's why I stopped using kde |
| 12:36.04 | buz | thats why i use kde |
| 12:36.19 | buz | gnome is like osx in that regards |
| 12:36.22 | edwardocallaghan | Use Fluxbox or die |
| 12:36.22 | buz | either like it or dont |
| 12:36.46 | seaLne | thats what your distro should be giving you |
| 12:36.49 | buz | i think kde defaults are sane |
| 12:36.58 | buz | in kubuntu anyway (aside of the positively awful theme that is) |
| 12:37.38 | edwardocallaghan | PC-BSD do a good job with KDE |
| 12:37.54 | edwardocallaghan | They really clean it up |
| 12:39.59 | buz | i dont want any of that |
| 12:40.06 | buz | that nearly always means dumbing it down |
| 12:40.12 | buz | i want 100 icons in my app |
| 12:40.41 | edwardocallaghan | I like to use my RAM for my apps |
| 12:40.53 | edwardocallaghan | I need all I can get |
| 12:41.00 | edwardocallaghan | Yes all 16GB |
| 12:46.34 | Paladine | bit of publicity for the Neo :) |
| 12:46.35 | Paladine | http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=freechat&Number=2861760&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=7&fpart=&vc=1 |
| 12:47.09 | Paladine | please correct me if I got any of the details wrong |
| 12:48.26 | edwardocallaghan | <PROTECTED> |
| 12:48.45 | koen | We cannot proceed. |
| 12:48.45 | koen | We encountered a problem. The reason reported was: |
| 12:48.46 | koen | Access Denied. |
| 12:48.46 | koen | This is not necessarily an error. If you feel this is an error then it could be something as simple as your browser not being set to accept cookies. If you feel this error is a problem with the server then please contact team@thinkbroadband.com and let us know what exactly went wrong so it can be fixed as soon as possible. Otherwise, please use your back button to return to the previous page. |
| 12:48.48 | Paladine | that for my link? |
| 12:48.55 | koen | yes |
| 12:48.58 | Paladine | hang on then I will pastebin what I wrote |
| 12:49.24 | edwardocallaghan | Your site is a bit retarded if you don't mind me saying so |
| 12:49.31 | Paladine | it isn't my site |
| 12:49.38 | Paladine | it is the biggest braodband forum in the UK |
| 12:49.43 | edwardocallaghan | Use XOOPS |
| 12:49.53 | edwardocallaghan | Ah well the UK is retarded no wonder |
| 12:50.04 | edwardocallaghan | That's why I am leaving |
| 12:50.12 | Paladine | http://www.pastebin.ca/322454 |
| 12:52.11 | Paladine | hopefully I didn't get anything factually incorrect? |
| 12:53.30 | Paladine | please tell me if Idid soI canmake the relevant edits |
| 12:53.36 | *** join/#openmoko zqx3 (n=bill@c-67-190-144-184.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 12:54.43 | mickeyl | looks about right |
| 12:55.32 | edwardocallaghan | mickeyl:Hi |
| 12:55.39 | Paladine | thanks, I only found out about it earlier this week, so I didn't want to get anything wrong |
| 12:55.48 | mickeyl | yo edwardocallaghan |
| 12:55.50 | Paladine | I still have a lot of reading to do myself |
| 12:56.15 | edwardocallaghan | How likely is it going to be to really get my hands on a phone&SDK to do some dev on? |
| 12:56.41 | mickeyl | hmm... very likely. march 11 is open for all devel |
| 12:57.01 | koen | edwardocallaghan: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001505.html |
| 12:57.17 | mickeyl | bbl |
| 12:57.18 | edwardocallaghan | I mean the pre view one... |
| 12:58.02 | edwardocallaghan | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/EdwardOcallaghan |
| 12:58.07 | rwhitby | mickeyl: how many applications did you get? |
| 12:58.19 | mickeyl | rwhitby: i think ~ 100 or so |
| 12:58.24 | *** join/#openmoko wolfbone (n=wolfbone@host86-128-98-61.range86-128.btcentralplus.com) |
| 12:58.41 | mickeyl | i lost track a bit |
| 12:58.43 | mickeyl | perhaps even more |
| 12:59.07 | so_solid_moo | how many are you able to select? |
| 12:59.55 | mickeyl | i guess about 50 or so for the first run |
| 13:00.02 | so_solid_moo | wow, that's not bad |
| 13:00.29 | TRIsoft | 50% chance, not bad |
| 13:03.15 | *** join/#openmoko zqx3_ (n=bill@c-67-190-144-184.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 13:04.50 | buz | the rest of us can then play in qemu for a month right? |
| 13:08.39 | mickeyl | yeah |
| 13:09.18 | *** join/#openmoko gambler (n=orion@203-206-24-212.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 13:10.22 | koen | the "Think Outside Stowaway Sierra" looks pretty neat |
| 13:12.34 | aloril | hmm.. I guess there is possibility that 2007-09-11 release won't have proprietary agpsd daemon |
| 13:12.58 | koen | I wouldn't count on it |
| 13:13.14 | koen | I do suspect there will be a replacement available at that time |
| 13:14.12 | Paladine | posted on the ubuntuforums too |
| 13:14.23 | Paladine | and a couple of other places I frequant |
| 13:14.50 | aloril | yeah, that's probably general trend: what is easily available will exceed what is going to be bundled |
| 13:15.51 | koen | I wonder how the community is going to handle all the different images being available for the neo |
| 13:16.08 | koen | and how far FIC/openmoko wants to support those |
| 13:17.08 | rwhitby | koen: let's hope it stays somewhat centralised and congenial like nslu2-linux, and not turn into wrt45g-style developer wars. |
| 13:17.22 | Paladine | blogged as well |
| 13:19.03 | koen | mickeyl: any roadmap for going EABI? |
| 13:19.19 | aloril | koen: umm.. you have one official image (which is being shipped, especlially the one at 09-11) |
| 13:19.22 | *** join/#openmoko Stefan_C (n=No@ppp-70-247-189-199.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) |
| 13:19.38 | Stefan_C | hey guys, i must've missed the announcement, what was it? |
| 13:19.46 | Stefan_C | did you all see the video with sean too? |
| 13:19.47 | koen | Stefan_C: topic |
| 13:19.54 | rwhitby | Stefan_C: what video? |
| 13:19.57 | Stefan_C | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRvtAAXTIlg&eurl= |
| 13:20.01 | xorAxAx | Stefan_C: sean lengthly explained us in the announcement, how important it is to check the channel topic |
| 13:20.02 | aloril | koen: you have good position because FIC itself is behind it, so you can easily select official one |
| 13:20.57 | Stefan_C | so the announcement is the road map? i would think it would be outlines more on the home page. it's quite spare on details. a blog would help ... |
| 13:21.21 | buz | details on v2 would help |
| 13:21.32 | buz | then again our mouth might run dry because of all the drooling |
| 13:21.33 | marcellus | if there are any such details |
| 13:22.49 | CM | I'll just try to get oe and qemu working until March :) |
| 13:24.10 | mickeyl | koen: between March and September |
| 13:24.39 | mickeyl | of course we can test earlier |
| 13:25.38 | Stefan_C | man idk why but i'm really excited about this thing, i just wish it wasn't so ugly |
| 13:26.00 | XorA|sleep | mickeyl: nice announcement |
| 13:26.12 | mickeyl | thanks :) |
| 13:26.15 | mickeyl | good morning, btw |
| 13:26.32 | Stefan_C | mickeyl: how are you related to openmoko? |
| 13:26.53 | CM | Stefan_C: Brother in law |
| 13:26.59 | rwhitby | mickeyl is the chief sw platform architect dude |
| 13:27.28 | Stefan_C | thanks for clarifying |
| 13:27.39 | Stefan_C | and you rwhitby? |
| 13:27.41 | rwhitby | (not that I speak on his or openmoko's behalf, of course) |
| 13:28.02 | mickeyl | hehe, that's quite cool. /me notes for the business card "chief sw platform architect dude" |
| 13:28.04 | rwhitby | I'm just some random guy who runs nslu2-linux.org (which uses OpenEmbedded) |
| 13:28.08 | *** join/#openmoko gsuveg (n=gsuveg@dsl217-197-179-120.pool.tvnet.hu) |
| 13:28.38 | Stefan_C | well i just like to get to know people. companies are boring when you can't name the people who helped make it what it is. |
| 13:28.39 | Tv | I still like the story of a company that had a policy that when you've been in the house for n years, you get a "general" prefix on your title. |
| 13:28.44 | gsuveg | re |
| 13:28.49 | Tv | And this one guy who worked there with the title "specialist". |
| 13:28.52 | xorAxAx | Tv: senior :) |
| 13:28.52 | Tv | And got the promotion. |
| 13:29.16 | xorAxAx | senior general specialist |
| 13:29.16 | rwhitby | night all |
| 13:29.51 | Stefan_C | who would i have to contact at openmoko to get them to use RSS feeds and a standard forum. mailing lists are quite gastly and out dated |
| 13:30.40 | Stefan_C | it's difficult to have conversations in a wiki |
| 13:30.47 | Stefan_C | but forums are something everyone understands |
| 13:30.48 | Sencer | supplementary tool discussions are sooo boring |
| 13:30.51 | XorA | Stefan_C: us dev types prefer mailing lists |
| 13:30.59 | Stefan_C | why? |
| 13:31.07 | CM | mailinglists and irc |
| 13:31.14 | Demitar | While I agree that forums are cumbersome an RSS feed of pipermail I wouldn't mind. |
| 13:31.16 | XorA | Stefan_C: because we can read it on any device we choose |
| 13:31.48 | rwhitby | hard to download a forum for offline reading on the bus |
| 13:31.52 | ozamosi | Stefan_C: don't say that... More people have sent an email and read a response, than posted in a forum |
| 13:32.04 | XorA | and SMTP mail is a standard, when they standardise forums so we can filter them then we might start using them |
| 13:32.14 | Stefan_C | i'm just speaking from personal preferance |
| 13:32.26 | Stefan_C | but you all give great reasons as to why it is the way it is |
| 13:33.12 | rwhitby | Stefan_C: I read many mailing lists, but visit no forums regularly (I do get one via an RSS feed which I skim) |
| 13:33.21 | XorA | Stefan_C: you can always use gmane to get a forum view on mist mailing lists |
| 13:33.24 | ozamosi | I prefer forums as well, personally, but lot's of developers hate them. |
| 13:33.36 | Stefan_C | XorA: i use windows |
| 13:33.57 | ozamosi | Maybe that is why there are no really good forum software. All are PHP, and the only ones that has features but not that many security holes are proprietary... |
| 13:34.15 | rwhitby | I can never remember to visit a forum. Email comes to me :-) |
| 13:34.25 | *** join/#openmoko Zer0Her0_ (n=Z@17.232.17.195) |
| 13:34.28 | Stefan_C | hence why i use an RSS feed attached to a forum |
| 13:34.55 | rwhitby | Stefan_C: yes, but you can't reply when you're offline. |
| 13:35.06 | Zer0Her0_ | so they did make the deadline |
| 13:35.08 | CM | Stefan_C: Example: http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.comp.hardware.openmoko.general/ |
| 13:35.16 | rwhitby | I depend on offline IMAP for 80% of my email traffic. |
| 13:35.18 | Sencer | Stefan_C: and what happens when there are more new posts than items in an rss-feed? |
| 13:35.47 | l4rs | maillinglists would be much more cooler if they had an nice to use web interface, so you could read through topics that had been discussed before you registered... |
| 13:36.01 | rwhitby | l4rs: gmane.org |
| 13:36.22 | Stefan_C | ok well you've made your point. i was just trying to say as a user, and by user i really mean end user. zero linux skills what so ever, i prefer forums. there are a lot of people like me out there as well |
| 13:36.33 | XorA | offlineimap rulez |
| 13:36.38 | Stefan_C | l4rs: you hit the nail on the head |
| 13:37.01 | rwhitby | Stefan_C: kudos to you for discussing the issue rationally and listening to the responses. |
| 13:37.09 | XorA | Stefan_C: windows doesnt stop gmane working :-) |
| 13:37.58 | Stefan_C | i'll look into it XorA. for now i just use the threaded view to see what is going on. it isn't pretty but it gets the job done |
| 13:38.17 | Stefan_C | what the hell time zone are you in? it's 07:38 saturday where i am |
| 13:38.18 | l4rs | hm... well, ok gmane.org looks quite acceptable ;) |
| 13:38.18 | Zer0Her0_ | so half the sites posted in the announcement aren't even live yet it would seem. |
| 13:38.27 | rwhitby | Stefan_C: GMT+10:30 |
| 13:38.50 | rwhitby | It was sunday 3 hours 15 minutes ago in Chatham Island. |
| 13:39.09 | aloril | Zer0Her0: yeah, they go live at 02-11 (according to announcement) |
| 13:39.38 | Zer0Her0_ | hehe, i'm your average reader scroll through for links to pictures and such, now reading the actual announcement :-D |
| 13:39.49 | edwardocallaghan | bye |
| 13:39.50 | *** part/#openmoko edwardocallaghan (n=edward@host86-140-98-89.range86-140.btcentralplus.com) |
| 13:40.23 | Stefan_C | now that i know that there are developers in here, let me pose a question: how feasable would it be to port some sort of web hosting client on to an openmoko device so we can have a "webos" that lets us access and modify our data. |
| 13:40.53 | Stefan_C | apache, that's what it's called hehe. i forgot for a second, horribly medicated right now |
| 13:42.53 | Stefan_C | what i'm trying to say is i would like to overcome the limitations of having to sync my device, then use another application to edit my data, then sync my device again. seems horribly inefficent to me |
| 13:43.41 | Sencer | I think most people tuned out when you said webos |
| 13:43.52 | *** join/#openmoko nbd (n=nbd@openwrt/developer/nbd) |
| 13:43.52 | Stefan_C | i use google docs, gmail, and google calender, so i know a PIM is possible |
| 13:43.58 | Zer0Her0_ | yes |
| 13:44.43 | Stefan_C | i guess i scared off too many people |
| 13:45.31 | aloril | I think it has plenty of ram to run apache |
| 13:46.06 | XorA | Stefan_C: you should be able to edit the data on the Neo |
| 13:46.24 | XorA | Stefan_C: but there are numerous web servers in OE that will run happilly on Neo |
| 13:46.35 | Stefan_C | yea but what i'm talking about is editing the data on the neo via a web browser running on my PC ... in real time |
| 13:46.58 | Zer0Her0_ | why not edit data on the neo as data ;) |
| 13:47.38 | Zer0Her0_ | and i prefer syncing, what happens if someone steals my phone, or it is lost |
| 13:47.46 | *** join/#openmoko gsuveg (n=gsuveg@dsl217-197-179-120.pool.tvnet.hu) |
| 13:47.52 | Zer0Her0_ | my data is all in one place, a very mobile device... |
| 13:48.24 | Stefan_C | well then you can offer a premium service to give you guys a steady stream of income, a service that backs up your moko |
| 13:49.11 | Zer0Her0_ | or a premium service for people that want to edit data right on their phones, instead of taking the standard syncing route ;) |
| 13:49.31 | Zer0Her0_ | though i think premium services are dumb, this is an open platform. everything should be open and free. |
| 13:49.38 | Stefan_C | agreed |
| 13:50.40 | Zer0Her0_ | i do admit, it's an interesting idea. not one that appeals to me. |
| 13:51.01 | Zer0Her0_ | i still can't get over the official price! |
| 13:51.34 | yacc | Just wondering, will the Neo have SyncML support? |
| 13:52.30 | Stefan_C | but here is what i have in mind, you turn on your phone, launch an application, call it "web mode" for all i care, it essentially turns on apache. it pings a server that you guys host, i go to www.stefan_c.openmoko.com or whatever and login, now i have my contacts, text messages, etc. accessable to me on one home page. you guys can put adsense in front of this ui. there is your source of income |
| 13:52.59 | koen | yacc: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001505.html |
| 13:53.07 | so_solid_moo | Stefan_C: why would you not want to have your contacts in, e.g., your e-mail client? |
| 13:53.46 | yacc | koen: How does that answer if the PIM apps will have SyncML support? |
| 13:54.05 | koen | crap, wrong link |
| 13:54.09 | l4rs | yacc: "We're working with Funambol on SyncML and (soon) push email. -Sean" |
| 13:54.15 | yacc | koen: I just ask, because the Mac can be brought to sync with SyncML compatible phones. |
| 13:54.28 | koen | http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001593.html |
| 13:54.36 | yacc | koen: collateral findings when I was bringing my Nokia to sync with Evolution. |
| 13:54.41 | Stefan_C | so_solid_moo: you're forgetting that the average person uses web mail, not a full blown email client. stop thinking as a developer and start thinking as a user. that's the main problem with you linux guys |
| 13:54.43 | Zer0Her0_ | yacc: yep, why i care bout it too :) |
| 13:54.58 | alphaone | Jo :-) |
| 13:55.12 | so_solid_moo | Stefan_C: before telling me what my problems are, why are you assuming my email client isn't web-based? |
| 13:55.21 | Zer0Her0_ | Stefan_C: i'd agrue a PORTION of average users use webmail, most still use mail clients. |
| 13:56.05 | Stefan_C | Zer0Her0 and so_solid_moo: so why not offer a simple way of importing contacts via a users email client hehe. solve everyones issue |
| 13:56.05 | l4rs | Stefan_C, why do you want to access your phone over the openmoko site, when you can plug it to your pc via usb or bluetooth? |
| 13:56.19 | so_solid_moo | Stefan_C: because sync "just works", and "import" doesn't ? |
| 13:57.25 | Stefan_C | 14rs: how many people do you know actually plug their phone in to their computer? |
| 13:57.46 | Zer0Her0_ | Stefan_C: plug in, or use bluetooth? |
| 13:58.10 | Stefan_C | Zer0Her0: sematics, you know what i mean |
| 13:58.17 | Zer0Her0_ | i know half a dozen that use USB, and a dozen or that sync with bluetooth. |
| 13:58.27 | so_solid_moo | Stefan_C: it has to be plugged in de-facto in order to be able to get to it |
| 13:58.35 | so_solid_moo | Stefan_C: whether it's your solution or someone else's |
| 13:59.04 | Stefan_C | see that's weird, my generation (21-24) doesn't do that. then again i'm forgetting that when it comes to mobile phones americans are half a decade behind |
| 14:00.03 | koen | it charges via usb |
| 14:00.20 | koen | I wonder how people would get by without plugging it in sometimes |
| 14:00.36 | Zer0Her0_ | haha |
| 14:00.54 | Stefan_C | well i hope there is an ac adapter ... i mean a lot of people around the world don't have pc's but do have mobile phones |
| 14:01.14 | Zer0Her0_ | if they don't have a PC what does running apache gain them then |
| 14:01.16 | Zer0Her0_ | ?!? |
| 14:01.29 | koen | webmail without a pc? |
| 14:01.37 | koen | contradictions, contradictions |
| 14:03.02 | Stefan_C | what i'm saying is i do not want to have to plug in my device, sync, open up an application, input/modify/delete data, sync again, just to do what i have to do. more and more of my workflow has been moved online and it would be grand if i could access the data on my phone via a website as well. |
| 14:03.03 | *** join/#openmoko gsuveg (n=gsuveg@dsl217-197-179-120.pool.tvnet.hu) |
| 14:03.49 | l4rs | what i am wondering when you connect a battery powered usb hub to the neo to use mobile wifi or so, if the neo will charge itself from the hubs batterys, so they will be empty very quick ;) |
| 14:04.41 | buz | Stefan_C: you want a sidekick ;) |
| 14:04.56 | buz | (besides, with egroupware it might work) |
| 14:05.00 | Zer0Her0_ | Stefan_C: what if syncing what seamless as you work? much like most webapps that you have such high regard for? |
| 14:05.24 | l4rs | Stefan_C, but you dont need openmoko.org or any other (online) website to do that, if you let an webserver running on your neo, you can simply connect to it with a webbrowser by entering the neos ip |
| 14:05.40 | Zer0Her0_ | also accessing the neo1973, may have major latency issues depending on network conditions, etc. |
| 14:06.12 | Stefan_C | Zer0Her0: how much bandwidth do you need to read your stored text messages lol? |
| 14:06.23 | Stefan_C | 14rs: you try telling a user to enter in an IP address |
| 14:06.35 | Stefan_C | buz: hate hate hate sidekicks, love my nokia E61 |
| 14:06.50 | buz | the e61 speaks syncml |
| 14:06.53 | buz | just like neo does |
| 14:07.17 | buz | i suggest you look at egroupware, that has syncml server afaik |
| 14:08.20 | Stefan_C | buz i love gmail, i don't want to switch to anything else |
| 14:08.22 | buz | http://www.egroupware.org/index.php?page_name=wiki&wikipage=SyncML |
| 14:08.33 | buz | too bad, you cant really sync anything to gmail |
| 14:08.33 | Stefan_C | the java gmail app works wonders |
| 14:09.24 | l4rs | Stefan_C, is there really a difference in entering myphone.openmoko.org or 192.168.0.123? even for endusers? |
| 14:09.24 | buz | then port java to openmoko |
| 14:09.42 | buz | l4rs: it's trivially solved with ddns |
| 14:09.53 | buz | i think i could have that running in 1h |
| 14:09.56 | Stefan_C | i just don't want the openmoko to turn into a device that's by developers for developers. my eyes glaze over when linux people tell me how friendly their OS is, if they're going to make a phone with the same mentality then i'm scared |
| 14:10.11 | buz | kubuntu IS friendly |
| 14:10.16 | Stefan_C | buz: well good that it's easy to fix hehe, i wouldn't want to enter an IP |
| 14:10.18 | buz | friendlier than XP in some ways |
| 14:10.34 | buz | for the truly lazy, there's always the hosts file |
| 14:11.17 | marcellus | ..just chooses whom it is friendly to :) |
| 14:11.31 | Stefan_C | editing host files aren't friendly, trust me on that one lol |
| 14:11.36 | koen | buz: avahi |
| 14:11.57 | buz | friendlier than DDNS trust me |
| 14:12.16 | buz | ddns while tehcnically trivial has all sorts of gotchas |
| 14:12.56 | Stefan_C | well buz here is how i see it: if you don't do a web interface for the device then you'll have to create a binary for linux, mac, and windows folks in order to access the basic functions of the device. if you create a web UI however then it doesn't matter what platform that individual is using. |
| 14:12.58 | koen | buz: not to mention that a phone is being a double ppp link |
| 14:13.07 | koen | buz: so it isn't reachable from the net |
| 14:13.32 | buz | koen: you might be able to route around that but thats really nasty |
| 14:13.52 | buz | i know *I* could do it |
| 14:14.04 | buz | you can use a java app just fine |
| 14:14.06 | koen | buz: not the webmail using person without a computer |
| 14:14.16 | buz | yeah |
| 14:14.18 | buz | besides i dont see the point |
| 14:14.30 | buz | why should i run a server on a phone |
| 14:14.32 | koen | me neither |
| 14:14.36 | buz | other than for geek points |
| 14:15.23 | koen | and as someone pointed out on the mailing list, you only need an xml file to sync the neo to your mac |
| 14:15.50 | koen | with linux you already have opensync |
| 14:16.06 | koen | and I imagine windows has syncml stuff as well |
| 14:17.06 | koen | but let's honour the gods of NIH and put a webserver on it |
| 14:18.21 | Stefan_C | http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/euos2006/view/e_sess/9502 <-- why a web server running on a mobile is cool to me. duggest you dl the pdf |
| 14:18.41 | buz | i think you can use sync4j with outlook |
| 14:18.49 | *** join/#openmoko meyerm (n=meyerm@dslb-088-065-246-208.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 14:19.28 | *** join/#openmoko parag0n (n=parag0n@popeshoe.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 14:19.49 | koen | buz: sync4j is called funambol nowadays :) |
| 14:19.53 | buz | yes and since funambol is already on the neo, that should work just fine |
| 14:20.06 | *** join/#openmoko xipietotec (n=jackfros@194.115.109.66.static.dis.net) |
| 14:20.17 | ciastek | :) |
| 14:20.55 | buz | http://www.funambol.com/opensource/downloads.html |
| 14:21.02 | buz | outlook connector, ready for download |
| 14:22.06 | xipietotec | darn...I'm not a developer, but if the 2nd gen device is coming out on the 9-11 launch, should I wait until then to buy? |
| 14:22.39 | buz | besides getting PAN to work is surely easier for lusers than just hitting connect in some app, right |
| 14:22.56 | koen | xipietotec: the second gen will get releases 9/11/2008 |
| 14:22.57 | buz | i dont think it will come out 9-11 |
| 14:23.30 | Stefan_C | 2008 or 2007? |
| 14:24.04 | buz | i understand it will be announced in september 07 |
| 14:24.04 | xipietotec | oh, 2008, okay |
| 14:24.18 | Stefan_C | and hopefully by then more handset makers will want to adopt the platform. i'm a bit uncomfortable with the fact that only FIC will make these devices |
| 14:24.19 | xipietotec | but I'll be able to order a phone on 3-11? |
| 14:24.24 | koen | " 2007-09-11 Phase 2: Mass Market Sale |
| 14:24.24 | koen | Online sales will continue. We will also be available in a retail stores and selected carriers around the world. At this point, we hope your mom and dad will want to buy a Neo1973, too. |
| 14:24.24 | koen | The 2nd generation OpenMoko device will also be introduced at this time. We have something special in the works, but again, you will help shape this device. |
| 14:24.24 | koen | " |
| 14:24.32 | koen | announced != for sale |
| 14:24.35 | buz | yeah |
| 14:24.39 | buz | for sale probably in 1 year |
| 14:24.40 | buz | or later |
| 14:24.53 | koen | "So here it is, divided into 3 phases, that will repeat annually:" |
| 14:25.12 | xipietotec | koen: it says "introduced" which implies "introduced to the market" to me |
| 14:25.14 | Stefan_C | second gen device better have wifi |
| 14:25.18 | xipietotec | announced would be a better term |
| 14:25.27 | koen | OMG WIFI!!!!! |
| 14:25.40 | buz | i still think its weird to release one phone per year |
| 14:25.45 | sannes | Stefan_C: or what? :D |
| 14:25.59 | buz | doesnt inspire much confidence really |
| 14:26.05 | Stefan_C | buz: i agree, everyone releases several phones per year |
| 14:26.18 | Stefan_C | sannes: i'll kill a kitty |
| 14:26.21 | Stefan_C | hehe |
| 14:26.25 | koen | there goes 'everyone' |
| 14:26.44 | Stefan_C | everyone = the top 3: nokia, motorola, samsung |
| 14:26.45 | buz | everyone as in every phone supplier |
| 14:26.46 | xipietotec | koen: is it 3G? |
| 14:27.00 | koen | what is 3g? |
| 14:27.11 | Stefan_C | look it up on wikipedia |
| 14:27.25 | Stefan_C | it's another revision of wireless that offers like 1-2 mbps down |
| 14:27.40 | Stefan_C | real world it gets close to a meg |
| 14:27.41 | koen | I know what 3g is |
| 14:27.55 | Stefan_C | oooo you said is it 3G |
| 14:27.58 | parag0n | if v2 has wifi and 3g, i'll be upgrading |
| 14:28.00 | Stefan_C | i thought you asked what 3G was |
| 14:28.01 | koen | I was responding to xipietotec's question |
| 14:28.12 | Stefan_C | yea my bad, again i'm heavily medicated lol |
| 14:28.38 | xipietotec | koen: the Neo1973? |
| 14:30.59 | xipietotec | koen: it doesn't answer it entirely, but I looked it up on the wiki, it supports it |
| 14:31.30 | koen | "Ti GPRS (2.5G not EDGE)" looks like a good answer to me |
| 14:34.01 | Stefan_C | i just loathe the fact that it doesn't have a standard 3.5mm jack so i could use it as a multimedia device |
| 14:34.08 | Stefan_C | seems like a waste of such a beautiful screen |
| 14:34.17 | Vegar | can't you use an adapter? |
| 14:34.28 | Stefan_C | yea i can but adapters blow |
| 14:34.56 | Stefan_C | and we don't know if this thing has stero output yet |
| 14:37.35 | Stefan_C | you realize the iphone is the antiopenmoko |
| 14:38.02 | xipietotec | Stefan_C: Incorrect, the OpenMoko is the iPhone killer ;) |
| 14:38.25 | Stefan_C | the openmoko isn't going to take off until it's 3rd revision i predict |
| 14:38.32 | xipietotec | I'm just saying the 2nd gen will likely have a larger screen, camera, wifi, and maybe an accelerometer |
| 14:39.09 | Stefan_C | specs at this point don't matter, the openmoko looks like a kids toy. |
| 14:39.10 | aloril | multitouch (not just for trivial zoom stuff) |
| 14:39.28 | Stefan_C | they need some serious industrial designers to help them out |
| 14:39.31 | parag0n | camera? pah |
| 14:40.01 | xipietotec | Stefan_C: they'll have to change that at some point yeah, but I'm *waaayyy* excited about a phone that can integrate peaceably to my laptop =) |
| 14:40.41 | Stefan_C | xipietotec: my nokia works fantastic on my laptop already, i'm just excited about the concept of a platform that promotes hacking the living shit out of it |
| 14:40.53 | Stefan_C | i can request a feature, someone can develop it, i can install it, and i'm in heaven |
| 14:41.06 | xipietotec | Stefan_C: that too =) my laptop runs ubuntu |
| 14:41.32 | Stefan_C | ah i run windows so i hope openmoko doesn't forget about us windows users too |
| 14:42.26 | xipietotec | Stefan_C: they'll have to consider windows, it'll have built in Samba, etc. for talking to windows |
| 14:43.36 | Stefan_C | we should all pitch in to the wiki with desktop applications we want to see on this thing in mobile form. i can already think of three: FireFox, VLC and GAIM |
| 14:45.03 | parag0n | theres already a portable fx, that might be better than desktop build for it |
| 14:45.57 | koen | you mean webkit, gstreamer and gossip |
| 14:47.08 | parag0n | i'd like a super lightweight gecko based browser |
| 14:47.14 | Stefan_C | same |
| 14:48.22 | jjazz | koen: I think he means lynx, cat and irssi |
| 14:48.51 | koen | parag0n: 'lightweight' and 'gecko' don't match |
| 14:49.11 | koen | 'lightweight' and 'webkit' do match |
| 14:49.48 | xipietotec | koen: lightweight and gecko do, lightweight and firefox...no |
| 14:49.54 | xipietotec | e.g., epiphany |
| 14:50.04 | koen | not on a 266MHz arm cpu |
| 14:50.13 | koen | and I tried firefox and minimo |
| 14:51.20 | xipietotec | heh...most people will probably end up installing opera-mini |
| 14:51.48 | koen | what makes you think opera-mini will be available? |
| 14:52.11 | xipietotec | koen: opera would likely port it |
| 14:52.21 | koen | wouldn't count on it |
| 14:52.26 | *** join/#openmoko lonnb (n=lonnb@i-83-67-202-74.freedom2surf.net) |
| 14:52.34 | aloril | what about scripting: none? python? something else? |
| 14:52.52 | koen | anything that's available in openembedded |
| 14:53.07 | koen | http://www.openembedded.org/filebrowser/org.openembedded.dev/packages |
| 14:53.11 | koen | take your pick |
| 14:53.52 | xipietotec | what web-browser is it going to have by default? |
| 14:54.44 | koen | the question is "is it going to have a webbrowser by default?" |
| 14:54.51 | xipietotec | oh |
| 14:54.57 | xipietotec | it would be bloody stupid not to |
| 14:55.04 | Stefan_C | the out of box experiance is the most important |
| 14:55.06 | koen | I think it won't have a webbrowser when the dev program launches |
| 14:55.32 | aloril | koen: sure, but I mean scripting bundled applications (or those are meant to be scripted by using dbus I guess) |
| 14:55.34 | xipietotec | It will likely have one by the time it launches in stores |
| 14:56.02 | Stefan_C | the hell ... stores? |
| 14:56.21 | koen | Stefan_C: read the announcement |
| 14:56.34 | xipietotec | Stefan_C: see the roadmap, they'll be selling it in stores by 11-9-07 |
| 14:56.40 | koen | "2007-09-11 Phase 2: Mass Market Sale |
| 14:56.40 | koen | Online sales will continue. We will also be available in a retail stores and selected carriers around the world." |
| 14:57.06 | koen | for the people with a too short attention span: http://dominion.kabel.utwente.nl/koen/cms/news-from-fic |
| 14:57.18 | koen | a condensed version of the announcement |
| 14:58.22 | Zer0Her0_ | i thought the announcement was a good read |
| 15:00.40 | *** join/#openmoko debugger (n=Rui@84.90.10.107) |
| 15:00.49 | Stefan_C | so lets say someone as inexperianced as me gets one of these things really really early, how hard to do you think it will be to update to the latest version? |
| 15:03.28 | koen | application manager -> update -> ok |
| 15:03.32 | koen | or something similar |
| 15:05.42 | Stefan_C | i'm used to my nokia, there is an app, one button, and it downloads the latest firmware, installs it, phone reboots, i'm golden |
| 15:07.08 | aloril | Stefan_C: my guess maybe even easier, "update all" instead of update each separately |
| 15:08.30 | Stefan_C | good |
| 15:09.58 | Stefan_C | 350 is a bit steep for no wifi |
| 15:10.17 | Sencer | Stefan_C: as a poor windows user you've never really experienced the power of package-managers/application managers that have been the norm on *nix for some time |
| 15:10.23 | Stefan_C | then again it has that pretty screen |
| 15:10.49 | Stefan_C | Sencer: i've dual booted ubuntu before, i know what i'm missing. trust me |
| 15:12.25 | Stefan_C | i don't buy in to the whole open = better philosophy. better = better and for what i do windows is better. i am excited about openmoko being open however because it's about time someone thought of this. all of the major phone OS's out now such in one way or another. hopefully openmoko can take the best of all and make something amazing. if not then big deal, i always got nokia lol |
| 15:12.45 | Stefan_C | suck* |
| 15:13.45 | aloril | I think $350 is good price for what it has, but then I'm accustomed to plain store prices |
| 15:13.47 | Stefan_C | Palm's PIM is gold, Windows Mobile has the best office suite and easiest developement model, Symbian has the stability of a fucking rock, Blackberry ... i never used one so i can't comment |
| 15:15.34 | *** join/#openmoko gcr (n=gcr@loudsl01-253-100-123.iglou.com) |
| 15:16.36 | Stefan_C | so how much will openmoko actually develop in house and how much will be developed by outsiders? by that i mean what applications will be built by openmoko and included in the device versus what are they going to ask other developers to create |
| 15:18.08 | xipietotec | Stefan_C: it'll likely include many applications that developers have allready created |
| 15:20.20 | *** join/#openmoko vics (n=vics@217.21.35.33) |
| 15:21.30 | aloril | Stefan_C: well.. I would say its Linux distribution that just happens to run on mobile phone ;-) |
| 15:22.44 | parag0n | i hope openmoko ends up more like ubuntu and less like debian then |
| 15:23.21 | Stefan_C | aloril: god i hope your wrong, the current state of linux makes me want to vomit |
| 15:23.49 | xipietotec | Stefan_C: why exactly? |
| 15:24.09 | Stefan_C | there is no unity |
| 15:24.19 | Stefan_C | installing things is no where near as easy as it is in windows |
| 15:24.42 | koen | heh |
| 15:24.43 | xipietotec | Stefan_C: um...I find installing things waaayy easier |
| 15:24.50 | Stefan_C | a trillion different distros |
| 15:24.53 | xipietotec | sources.list |
| 15:25.03 | parag0n | what? seriously, for 95% of apps, you press a button in synaptic |
| 15:25.20 | xipietotec | Stefan_C: a trillion different distros is absolutely fine, as they're made for different purposes, and with different aims |
| 15:25.29 | Stefan_C | exactly, no unity |
| 15:25.31 | Sencer | lol, Stefan_C. :D |
| 15:25.50 | yacc | *wonder* |
| 15:25.58 | Stefan_C | windows is windows and you add applications to enhance functiaonlity |
| 15:26.19 | Stefan_C | linux is the same way with the kernal but regular people can't deal with that shit |
| 15:26.24 | *** join/#openmoko _rob_ (n=rob@ACB1DFA5.ipt.aol.com) |
| 15:26.50 | parag0n | yep, i love it when i try to install an app for windows, and it wont because it doesnt work with sp2, or needs a patch to work on anything but win2k |
| 15:26.53 | Sencer | Stefan_C: regular people can't deal with installing windows either. If it didn't came pre-installed by OEMs... |
| 15:27.02 | koen | so linux on a phone is bad, because your computer has a zillion distros |
| 15:27.10 | Tv | Stefan_C: dude, you lost the argument at the point where you said "kernal". |
| 15:27.14 | Zer0Her0_ | koen: now you're getting it |
| 15:27.22 | Stefan_C | i'm saying don't call openmoko a distro |
| 15:27.34 | parag0n | it is.. |
| 15:27.38 | Stefan_C | because that implies more people will spin off and create their own distro |
| 15:27.43 | koen | ok, lets call it a 'fluffie bonze' |
| 15:28.03 | koen | does running a 'fluffie bonze' on your phone make you feel better? |
| 15:28.11 | parag0n | considering most of openmoko seems to be spun off from openembedded anyway... |
| 15:28.18 | boorad | MDK: pong |
| 15:28.23 | Stefan_C | i don't want to buy a phone and go "hmmm ubuntu, debian, opensuse, damn small linux, fedora, redhat, ... i don't know what to choose!" |
| 15:28.52 | parag0n | so you're scared of choice? |
| 15:28.59 | Sencer | yes, freedom is bad, comrade. Let the central commitee decide. |
| 15:29.07 | Zer0Her0_ | so WE should be punished for your lack of decisiveness |
| 15:30.01 | Stefan_C | and you're just proving my point on the lack of unity. there should be a decision to use one distro, one flavor, and just expand on it instead of causing a shit ton of fragmentation and not going anywhere |
| 15:30.05 | Sencer | the amount of doublethink necessary, to justify that the very same thing that makes openmoko possible at all, is bad and should be avoided makes my head dizzy. |
| 15:30.05 | parag0n | besides, lately, liinuxes have been forming into 3 main groups... Debian based, Gentoo bbased, and Redhat based |
| 15:30.36 | xipietotec | Stefan_C: but the kitchen Sink approach doesn't work for all applications |
| 15:30.44 | koen | you could call moko debian based |
| 15:31.09 | aloril | Stefan_C: umm.. buying Neo1973 is buying PC with Linux preinstalled and prominently supported by vendor and vendor offering site where you can download applications for it |
| 15:31.17 | xipietotec | you would not use a desktop OS to run a webserver, you would be better off using Puppy or Arch on an older machine, etc. |
| 15:31.20 | Stefan_C | so what happens when someone says "you know what i don't like the way openmoko does things, i'm going to make openuntu" that hurts the platform as a whole since it cause application break |
| 15:31.24 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=bob@p85.212.178.177.tisdip.tiscali.de) |
| 15:31.27 | parag0n | personally, i'm a fan of debian based, it has a huge percentage of the embedded market, has the best distro ever (ubuntu) |
| 15:31.28 | l4rs | whats the difference between debian and redhead bases distros? |
| 15:31.35 | xipietotec | Stefan_C: no it doesn't |
| 15:31.39 | xipietotec | it adds choices |
| 15:31.40 | parag0n | so you're saying you want a phone with vendor lockin? |
| 15:31.45 | Zer0Her0_ | Stefan_C: i would suggest you use a Nokia N770 or N800 and you'll understand you should be scared of linux |
| 15:31.46 | xipietotec | competition = good for you mr. consumer |
| 15:31.49 | koen | parag0n: http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS9048137234.html :) |
| 15:32.04 | rob_w | parag0n, do you have a fan-shirt ? |
| 15:32.06 | koen | l4rs: config file locations and package system |
| 15:32.08 | seemant | l4rs: primarily the package management and binary package format (there are some config file layout issues) |
| 15:32.20 | rob_w | or maybe a flag ? |
| 15:32.25 | Stefan_C | see the Nokia N770 and N800 use maemo as it's platform. no one is trying to reinvent a platofrm. thank god |
| 15:32.28 | parag0n | rob_w, i wish |
| 15:32.32 | aloril | Stefan_C: nobody forces you to install some unsupported distro over official FIC supported one |
| 15:32.58 | Stefan_C | that's true, what i'm saying is it would be nice if all the developers supported one platform versus many |
| 15:33.03 | koen | aloril: no, wrong, your forced to install OMG ZILLION DISTROS!!!!! |
| 15:33.21 | xipietotec | Stefan_C: FIC is just supporting one platform. You'd be able to install Qtopia if you wanted, and who knows maybe Maemo or Arch or Puppy, or whatnot even |
| 15:33.22 | Stefan_C | there are way too many talented people working on linux, but not collaborating and making something beautiful |
| 15:33.32 | xipietotec | but its going to come with OpenMoko |
| 15:33.34 | rob_w | Stefan_C, not true |
| 15:33.40 | ciastek | Stefan_C, youre simply wrong |
| 15:33.46 | Zer0Her0_ | i give up |
| 15:33.49 | xipietotec | Stefan_C: you're simply wrong and have no idea what you're talking about |
| 15:33.54 | rob_w | the manyness just makes you feel that .. |
| 15:34.16 | Sencer | so, Stefan_C, you think the concept of a free market is bad? |
| 15:34.17 | xipietotec | everything on one distro is portable to another distro |
| 15:34.19 | Stefan_C | how am i wrong? if the ubuntu guys, fedora guys and suse guys got together and made one killer distro wouldn't that be great? |
| 15:34.32 | Zer0Her0_ | no |
| 15:34.34 | ciastek | Stefan_C, you say that maemo is good for nokia 770. and i say that openmoko is good for nec1973 for the same reason. |
| 15:34.42 | nbd | the myth of the 'one true way to do things' will always be a common theme :) |
| 15:34.57 | Stefan_C | buz you think a lot of things |
| 15:35.02 | aloril | Stefan_C: ah, can't force developers to do that, but I think its likely that most want to support official distribution if they want wide usage for their program |
| 15:35.03 | xipietotec | Stefan_C: No, it would be horrible. All a distro is, basically is a packaging of software around Linux, in certain configurations, that's it. |
| 15:35.20 | parag0n | Stefan_C, it wouldnt work, because different people have different ideas over what is brilliant |
| 15:35.26 | koen | packaging of software around a kernel |
| 15:35.28 | Zer0Her0_ | wouldn't it be great if we all had one phone, one computer, and one car |
| 15:35.34 | Zer0Her0_ | that would be KILLER!!! |
| 15:35.40 | Stefan_C | well as of now the developer tools aren't even out yet so i'm not worrying |
| 15:35.58 | Sencer | alles zu fragmentiert. Man muß sich immer entscheiden |
| 15:36.00 | koen | Stefan_C: not out yet? |
| 15:36.11 | Stefan_C | are they? let me check |
| 15:36.14 | buz | does anybody even use debian bsd? its not like the bsd dont have their own good packaging system |
| 15:36.16 | koen | Stefan_C: openembedded has been out there for some years |
| 15:36.27 | *** join/#openmoko terrex (n=terrex@84-122-63-17.onocable.ono.com) |
| 15:36.48 | Stefan_C | lemme look it up |
| 15:37.10 | buz | you ALWAYS have to decide |
| 15:37.17 | buz | even using windows is a decision |
| 15:37.46 | Sencer | there is about a dozen different windows versions you can choose from ^^ |
| 15:38.21 | buz | cue the "but they all run the same software" |
| 15:38.59 | koen | xp, xp home, xp professional, xp mediacenter |
| 15:39.12 | Stefan_C | yea but my binary will work on all of them |
| 15:39.18 | koen | if microsoft would concentrate on making one windows, it would be so great |
| 15:39.31 | buz | same shit for everyone, i fully support that |
| 15:39.33 | Tv | If Ford would concentrate on making one car. |
| 15:39.38 | Stefan_C | they do, they concentrate on making applications a decade old work no matter what |
| 15:39.39 | ciastek | "and one windows to rule them all..." |
| 15:39.54 | parag0n | if you have the right version of .NET, DirectX, et |
| 15:39.57 | parag0n | *etc |
| 15:40.13 | buz | yeah and the graphics drivers crashes your kernel |
| 15:40.16 | boorad | newb question, if someone didn't have a phone, could they use qemu to emulate the ARM? |
| 15:40.49 | Stefan_C | i'm just going to wait until this conversation gravitate away from windows versus linux. i hate these stupid little arguments |
| 15:40.49 | koen | boorad: yes, but why? |
| 15:40.52 | koen | boorad: qemu missed the actual gsm part and doesn't emulate everything |
| 15:40.54 | boorad | not sure - how could I see the OpenMoko apps on my dev box? |
| 15:40.55 | Tv | Stefan_C: yes we hate them too, now please stop |
| 15:40.56 | parag0n | Stefan_C, well, you brought it here |
| 15:41.00 | koen | boorad: using Xoo would be a lot faster |
| 15:41.47 | boorad | koen: I have x86, can make a chroot env, but will I be able to see the apps as they would appear on the phone? |
| 15:42.03 | Stefan_C | Idea: OpenMoko should have some sort of podcast keeping us up to date on their work. |
| 15:42.10 | boorad | koen: will look at Xoo |
| 15:42.12 | Stefan_C | video would be great! |
| 15:42.21 | parag0n | podcast? they wont even have a forum |
| 15:42.30 | Stefan_C | that sucks |
| 15:42.35 | Zer0Her0_ | haha |
| 15:42.45 | koen | boorad: you still need a 300dpi display to display things properly |
| 15:43.04 | buz | podcasts suck |
| 15:43.11 | boorad | koen: ah, I see. |
| 15:43.24 | buz | people who dont know english properly yapping about stuff nobody cares about |
| 15:43.33 | aloril | koen: or just keep enough distance ;-) |
| 15:43.43 | koen | buz: but can use use OMG!! MANGA!!! avatars |
| 15:43.52 | buz | actually you can |
| 15:43.56 | buz | do so with email as well |
| 15:43.57 | boorad | koen: any way to blow it up to 100dpi (existing screen) and deal with it being huge? |
| 15:43.58 | koen | buz: and post the same question to 20 different sections |
| 15:44.01 | Stefan_C | ... so you guys hate channel9? |
| 15:44.12 | buz | wtf is channel9 |
| 15:44.20 | Zer0Her0_ | MS Dev, website |
| 15:44.22 | Stefan_C | http://msdn.channel9.com |
| 15:44.25 | Zer0Her0_ | er -, |
| 15:44.30 | buz | uuuuhm |
| 15:44.35 | buz | i dont go near msdn |
| 15:44.44 | koen | boorad: the Xoo skin has a 480x640 resolution, which should handle that |
| 15:44.48 | Stefan_C | because it's a microsoft thing right? |
| 15:44.54 | Zer0Her0_ | buz: you think podcast content, or the technology sucks? |
| 15:44.56 | boorad | koen: ty |
| 15:44.59 | buz | because its |
| 15:45.03 | buz | Zer0Her0: both actually |
| 15:45.16 | Zer0Her0_ | what technology would fill it's place? |
| 15:45.18 | buz | i meant because msdn is totally useless to me |
| 15:45.29 | buz | Zer0Her0: none |
| 15:45.33 | koen | boorad: one way or another an apps will look different on the actual device, but Xoo give you a good enough impression |
| 15:45.33 | Stefan_C | their podcasts rock however |
| 15:45.34 | buz | i dont care for radio |
| 15:45.35 | parag0n | Stefan_C, looks like a search site to me |
| 15:46.00 | Stefan_C | i must've spelled it wrong |
| 15:46.01 | buz | besides i read much faster than most people talk |
| 15:46.02 | Stefan_C | give me a sec |
| 15:46.19 | Zer0Her0_ | buz: you can read while driving?! |
| 15:46.24 | Stefan_C | durrr i had it backwards |
| 15:46.26 | Stefan_C | http://channel9.msdn.com/ |
| 15:46.32 | buz | i prefer music while driving |
| 15:46.43 | buz | (and i rarely drive long distances) |
| 15:47.11 | Stefan_C | oh but i love their videos where they get developers up on a whiteboard, or show off a product demo. that's something video enables |
| 15:47.34 | Stefan_C | i care less about conversations on video |
| 15:47.38 | Stefan_C | i'd rather read those |
| 15:47.40 | buz | screencast is ok, that actually has some added value of a text |
| 15:47.53 | buz | but audio podcast is really useless to me |
| 15:47.57 | Stefan_C | agree |
| 15:48.02 | parag0n | but everything on the openmoko is free.. f people want to see how it works, they can download it right? |
| 15:48.07 | buz | yes |
| 15:48.16 | buz | not right now but eventually |
| 15:48.25 | Zer0Her0_ | i think it's a great technology, i think the name is dumb and annoying and most content is useless, but i think the technology is very empowering |
| 15:48.33 | *** join/#openmoko terre1 (n=terrex@84-122-63-17.onocable.ono.com) |
| 15:48.33 | boorad | koen: xnest or xephyr ? |
| 15:48.45 | koen | boorad: xephyr is better |
| 15:48.47 | *** join/#openmoko lonnb (n=lonnb@i-83-67-202-74.freedom2surf.net) |
| 15:48.51 | l4rs | I like podcasts... they are perfect to be heard while coding without getting board |
| 15:49.02 | Stefan_C | Zer0Her0: most of the content is shit, but then again shit is relevant. what i find to be amazing you might find crap. we do agree that an openmoko podcast would rock yes? |
| 15:49.23 | buz | gimme a blog anyday |
| 15:49.24 | Zer0Her0_ | Stefan_C: i personally rather they get the product out the door |
| 15:50.14 | Stefan_C | epsidoe 1: show us the outside of the device, take it apart, show us the inside, talk about why those hardware choices were made, and that's it. i'm not asking for hour long content here. a 10 minute short wouuld be great |
| 15:50.20 | *** join/#openmoko pygi (n=mario@89-172-206-23.adsl.net.t-com.hr) |
| 15:50.24 | pygi | hello everyone |
| 15:50.51 | parag0n | a podcast / rss feed would be good |
| 15:51.01 | Stefan_C | yar |
| 15:51.01 | Zer0Her0_ | Stefan_C: but if the device isn't finalized how are they supposed to discuss their decisions? |
| 15:51.08 | Zer0Her0_ | ;) |
| 15:51.10 | Stefan_C | it is finalised |
| 15:51.14 | Stefan_C | they showed it off at ces |
| 15:51.14 | parag0n | especially if the neo has a video / rss player |
| 15:51.18 | buz | it is finalised from what i gather |
| 15:51.24 | Zer0Her0_ | ah |
| 15:51.27 | buz | parag0n: that is one thing i reall ywant |
| 15:51.32 | buz | an offline rss reader on neo |
| 15:51.44 | Zer0Her0_ | the announcement made it seem they were still taking suggestions |
| 15:51.46 | Stefan_C | it's a cell phone ... when would you be offline? |
| 15:51.51 | parag0n | i'll have a go |
| 15:51.53 | buz | for v2 yes |
| 15:52.08 | buz | i still wonder if the pcb has rounded edges |
| 15:52.09 | parag0n | rss is easy enough |
| 15:52.12 | buz | or if there will be empty space |
| 15:52.14 | Zer0Her0_ | Stefan_C: if you're inside, if you're outside of coverage etc |
| 15:52.25 | Stefan_C | idk wtf a deadzone is lol |
| 15:52.28 | stefan_schmidt | buz: Empty space |
| 15:52.31 | parag0n | if you're on a train |
| 15:52.31 | Zer0Her0_ | i'm in the country alot and basement of large buildings quite frequently. |
| 15:52.40 | buz | that just seems terribly stupid |
| 15:52.54 | parag0n | iand the connection keeps droppig out as you flit between towers |
| 15:52.56 | buz | gimme a smaller shell then |
| 15:53.07 | jteo | pringles cantenna? |
| 15:53.26 | stefan_schmidt | buz: At least at the downside. You could not have a PCB around the hole. :) |
| 15:53.35 | buz | not sure if its really a hole |
| 15:53.37 | parag0n | yes you could |
| 15:53.39 | buz | the CES photos dont look like it |
| 15:53.42 | stefan_schmidt | buz: It is |
| 15:53.54 | buz | then someone really needs be hit with a clue bat |
| 15:54.00 | buz | and not a foam one |
| 15:54.56 | stefan_schmidt | buz: http://flickr.com/photos/palmsolo/351010014/in/set-72157594461502609/ |
| 15:55.28 | buz | oh yeah that one has ahole |
| 15:55.36 | buz | mhh |
| 15:55.46 | buz | make thing square and allow for internal usb wifi |
| 15:55.51 | stefan_schmidt | buz: I also don't like the hole. But think about all the cool kids with a lanyard on his phone. :) |
| 15:56.08 | buz | that might work with a samsung ultra |
| 15:56.09 | CM | Something like this might be useful for some programs: http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/library/os-whistle/ |
| 15:56.13 | buz | a pda phone is simply to big |
| 15:56.48 | buz | i wonder what it would take to do a squareish case for it |
| 15:56.54 | parag0n | i like the hole, gives a grip for pulling it from pockets |
| 15:57.05 | stefan_schmidt | buz: Perhaps you can use the space for hardware enhancements if you'r carefully with a cutter, plastic and some glue |
| 15:57.11 | Stefan_C | idk but the first generation looks like something tinky winky would use |
| 15:57.24 | stefan_schmidt | heh |
| 15:58.03 | stefan_schmidt | Right, the v1 is even not my taste of a good design. |
| 15:58.31 | gcr | So does anyone know if any sort of gcj / jre is being worked on? |
| 15:58.49 | buz | i wonder what custom molded plastic shell would cost |
| 15:59.30 | buz | fic is owned by formosa plastics right? one would think they could do that ;) |
| 15:59.36 | stefan_schmidt | gcr: I don't think so. All java people cry for it but nobody of them like to do the work. |
| 15:59.37 | gcr | All I care about are the internals right now, but they better be able to make a stylish phone or nobody will be seeing our apps. |
| 15:59.53 | TRIsoft | buz: a few cents for the shell, but $15k+ for the tool |
| 16:00.25 | Tv | buz: I have friends who do that for a living, getting one made is affordable.. |
| 16:00.55 | Tv | buz: they have "toys" they made so it's not like it'd cost that much or take too much time, if they can tinker with it |
| 16:01.07 | gcr | what about python or ruby. The ruby-gtk stuff is super productive |
| 16:01.08 | buz | define affordable |
| 16:01.16 | Tv | buz: sorry I don't really know :( |
| 16:01.27 | parag0n | buz, if other people feel the samee, you could do the design and take it to FIC |
| 16:01.39 | buz | i suck as designer |
| 16:01.54 | buz | my concept would be fully black, round edge box |
| 16:02.08 | stefan_schmidt | gcr: Take a look at openembedded.org to see what packages are already in progress. Mostly it will be a simple recompile for openmoko |
| 16:02.21 | gcr | cool, I will |
| 16:02.51 | stefan_schmidt | gcr: Last time I checked they had 4000 packages in the buildsystem. |
| 16:03.15 | buz | i actually saw a rapid prototyping thing once where you could download a cad thingie design your case and get it made for like 70$ or so |
| 16:03.18 | gcr | I know I had python on my Zaurus 5000D, so .... |
| 16:03.48 | jjazz | Is bitbake related to bitkeeper or bitmover? |
| 16:04.10 | stefan_schmidt | jjazz: No |
| 16:04.11 | *** join/#openmoko A3N (n=Miranda@adsl-dyn99.91-127-30.t-com.sk) |
| 16:04.28 | stefan_schmidt | Have to go, cu later |
| 16:04.31 | jjazz | stefan_schmidt: thanks |
| 16:04.47 | gcr | yeah, python and ruby are both on there |
| 16:05.21 | gcr | Now to get the gtk bindings working.... |
| 16:05.32 | jjazz | python gtk bindings not working? |
| 16:05.44 | gcr | I didn't see a package for them yet |
| 16:05.50 | gcr | Are they there? |
| 16:05.56 | jjazz | Dunno. |
| 16:07.49 | Stefan_C | i feel really bad i didn't stop by openmoko's booth at CES |
| 16:08.25 | *** join/#openmoko Odin-LAP (n=odin@s121-302.gardur.hi.is) |
| 16:08.37 | aloril | not there? http://www.openembedded.org/repo/org.openembedded.dev/packages/python/python-pygtk2_2.10.3.bb |
| 16:11.25 | gcr | <-- moron |
| 16:11.28 | gcr | ty |
| 16:11.45 | gcr | Didn't learn how to use the browser yet :-) |
| 16:12.39 | Odin-LAP | Is that roadmap believed to remain accurate? |
| 16:12.50 | Stefan_C | we know as much as you lol, hopefully yes |
| 16:13.18 | Odin-LAP | Stefan_C: Well, you never know ... sometimes there are unusually knowledgeable people in these channels. :) |
| 16:14.29 | aloril | Odin-LAP: those reviewed it before announcement was made |
| 16:14.33 | Stefan_C | can someone explain to me how this is different from trolltech's greenphone? |
| 16:14.56 | Odin-LAP | Stefan_C: It's all open, and it's cheaper. 8) |
| 16:15.53 | Stefan_C | so openmoko is 100% free (in both senses of the word aka cost and freedom) |
| 16:16.10 | l4rs | 99.5% |
| 16:16.38 | Odin-LAP | Stefan_C: It seems the GSM and GPS modules are not. :p |
| 16:16.40 | buz | it depends on your definition of freedom |
| 16:17.02 | Odin-LAP | buz: By what definition isn't it? |
| 16:17.43 | Stefan_C | i seriously want to know why they went usb 1.1 and not 2.0 |
| 16:18.00 | Zer0Her0_ | yea i can't believe how expensive the greenphone is, and the greenphone is not meant to be used in a "live/production environment" |
| 16:18.31 | aloril | GPS probably will be 100% free eventually, GSM is separate system and less likely to be freed |
| 16:19.02 | aloril | Stefan_C: SoC defines what is supported and what they use supports 1.1 only |
| 16:19.06 | xorAxAx | hey Odin-LAP |
| 16:19.23 | Odin-LAP | xorAxAx: Why, hello. ;) |
| 16:21.03 | xorAxAx | Odin-LAP: why what? :) |
| 16:21.17 | Stefan_C | what do you guys think of this: http://www.tengo.net/ as a form of user input |
| 16:21.29 | mickeyl | using a pretty old processor as main CPU which has no idea of USB 2.0 |
| 16:21.41 | Odin-LAP | xorAxAx: Just a kind of "oh, you're here?" :p |
| 16:21.50 | xorAxAx | Odin-LAP: i am everywhere |
| 16:22.18 | buz | if 100%free==public domain then it isnt |
| 16:22.22 | Odin-LAP | Widely, perhaps. Nobody is everywhere. |
| 16:23.17 | xorAxAx | Odin-LAP: hehe |
| 16:23.27 | xorAxAx | well spotted |
| 16:23.28 | Odin-LAP | buz: Fair enough. But defining only public domain to be free is quite silly... |
| 16:23.52 | xorAxAx | public domain is only free if your state is anarchistic |
| 16:24.07 | xorAxAx | otherwise the copyright laws may make it unfree again because you dont have any license |
| 16:24.56 | xorAxAx | thats why its generally not very sensible to choose "public domain" as a way of releasing software |
| 16:24.57 | Odin-LAP | http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher/ <-- I find this a curious input method... |
| 16:25.05 | xorAxAx | Odin-LAP: ask cjb about it :) |
| 16:25.09 | *** join/#openmoko gw280 (n=george@vm.gwright.org.uk) |
| 16:26.13 | Odin-LAP | xorAxAx: Why isn't public domain sensible? |
| 16:27.25 | xorAxAx | Odin-LAP: maybe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_domain#Public_domain_and_the_Internet has some interesting points |
| 16:27.39 | *** join/#openmoko nihed (n=nihed@196.203.236.72) |
| 16:27.52 | Stefan_C | Odin-LAP: that input method gave me a headache |
| 16:27.54 | xorAxAx | esp. republishing, essential for FOSS, is not always possible |
| 16:28.06 | xorAxAx | Stefan_C: according to cjb, you will get used to it :) |
| 16:28.25 | Odin-LAP | Stefan_C: Heh. I find it interesting... :p |
| 16:28.48 | Odin-LAP | (Tried it on a PC/laptop.) |
| 16:29.27 | Stefan_C | i like tengo's better |
| 16:29.32 | Stefan_C | it just makes sense to me |
| 16:30.04 | Odin-LAP | xorAxAx: If it's *actually* public domain, it can always be republished, even when somebody else has used it... |
| 16:30.18 | Stefan_C | here is a tengo review by OSNews: http://www.osnews.com/story.php/15389/Review-TenGO-2.0-and-TenGO-Thumb |
| 16:30.20 | Odin-LAP | xorAxAx: The headache is in finding what really is PD... |
| 16:31.03 | Odin-LAP | Stefan_C: Is there a free implementation of it? |
| 16:31.29 | Stefan_C | i'm sure something couuld be worked out, doubt they patented it |
| 16:31.59 | Odin-LAP | "TenGO and related technologies are protected by patent applications in USA and worldwide." |
| 16:32.01 | Odin-LAP | Hmmm... |
| 16:32.18 | Odin-LAP | http://www.tengo.net/tengo_intellectualproperty.html (source) |
| 16:33.22 | Stefan_C | well like i said i'm sure something can be worked out, lisencing deal and what not. frankly that input method is brilliant. if i'm forced to hunt and pec or deal with a horrible hand writing recognition engine i'm going to be upset |
| 16:34.05 | Zer0Her0_ | Stefan_C: thought you were already upset that it ran linux ;) |
| 16:34.56 | Stefan_C | nope |
| 16:34.59 | Stefan_C | hehe |
| 16:35.11 | Odin-LAP | Stefan_C: It's unlikely to be included in OpenMoko if it isn't done in free software ... re: the wi-fi thing. |
| 16:35.40 | xorAxAx | Odin-LAP: and if nobody does it ... |
| 16:35.45 | xorAxAx | s/and/or/ |
| 16:36.25 | Odin-LAP | xorAxAx: That goes without saying. ;) |
| 16:36.44 | *** part/#openmoko jteo (n=nerant@cm124.gamma227.maxonline.com.sg) |
| 16:37.23 | xorAxAx | Odin-LAP: many people forget that and think that FOSS comes from the broad community and they dont have to care if anybody of that guys is actually interested in it |
| 16:37.57 | Odin-LAP | xorAxAx: True. |
| 16:38.29 | *** join/#openmoko ericthefish (n=ivan@82-71-36-214.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) |
| 16:38.57 | xorAxAx | sean moss-pultz' holidays in asia: http://web.archive.org/web/20020602161818/www.moss-pultz.com/asia/index.html |
| 16:41.29 | Stefan_C | wicked |
| 16:41.41 | Stefan_C | always wanted to travel, broke college student tho |
| 16:48.22 | Zer0Her0_ | moss looks almost like a college friend that moved to Malaysia a year or two back |
| 16:58.29 | mickeyl | cheers hrw |
| 16:58.40 | hrw | hi |
| 16:58.46 | hrw | mickeyl: nice roadmap |
| 16:58.56 | mickeyl | thanks. i sincerely hope we can realize that |
| 16:59.14 | cbpage | ditto! |
| 17:02.35 | noidd | Wow, lots of talk |
| 17:02.46 | noidd | hey Mickeyl, bet your glad the announcement is out. |
| 17:02.50 | noidd | NDAs suck |
| 17:02.51 | noidd | :-) |
| 17:05.18 | hrw | mickeyl: I had to write about openmoko today but decided to not ;D |
| 17:05.30 | noidd | "had to"? :) |
| 17:05.57 | hrw | noidd: my english is not native |
| 17:06.26 | mickeyl | noidd: no kiddin |
| 17:06.26 | mickeyl | g |
| 17:06.33 | xorAxAx | hrw: your english sounds french :) |
| 17:06.46 | mickeyl | noidd: what's your email address again, btw.? |
| 17:07.03 | noidd | hrw: I apologise. |
| 17:07.07 | noidd | red@unixfu.com |
| 17:07.23 | mickeyl | thanks |
| 17:07.26 | noidd | on the mailing list i'm subscribed to something else |
| 17:07.36 | noidd | if that matters |
| 17:07.56 | noidd | Actually - his first language could be ASL. |
| 17:08.12 | xorAxAx | "his"? |
| 17:08.28 | noidd | ASL doesn't have any way to express a difference between "Has to" "Needs to" "must" etc |
| 17:08.34 | xorAxAx | ah |
| 17:08.56 | xorAxAx | yeah, all those SLs |
| 17:09.05 | xorAxAx | they should learn a united one |
| 17:09.18 | xorAxAx | maybe one which can differentiate such things :) |
| 17:09.59 | xorAxAx | once, an affected girl told me that its not easy to get into contact with people from other nations like that |
| 17:10.31 | xorAxAx | so they have either a lot of misunderstandins or need to translate each other |
| 17:11.54 | *** join/#openmoko kripkenstein (n=alon@89-139-11-20.bb.netvision.net.il) |
| 17:13.23 | noidd | So, my million dollar question of the day is this |
| 17:13.53 | Tv | noidd: "No." That'll be $1M thank you.. |
| 17:13.56 | noidd | heh |
| 17:14.09 | noidd | no matter, I need to think through the question before I ask it |
| 17:14.31 | hrw | mickeyl: any idea when 'hacker lunchbox' content will be published? |
| 17:15.33 | noidd | btw Mickeyl, now I see the names of the classes I understand why you didn't push the classes upstream |
| 17:15.34 | *** part/#openmoko SubWolf (n=rob@69.92.38.82) |
| 17:16.29 | Odin-LAP | A quick question: Would it be feasible to do AES-CTR on the Neo1973? |
| 17:17.59 | Stefan_C | whats aesctr |
| 17:18.04 | LittleIdiot | ctr? |
| 17:18.13 | LittleIdiot | you mean ctc? |
| 17:19.31 | *** join/#openmoko TheSHAD0W (i=theshado@66.18.161.13) |
| 17:19.41 | Odin-LAP | LittleIdiot: No, CTR. Counter mode Rijndael... |
| 17:20.32 | mickeyl | noidd: yeah, that |
| 17:20.37 | mickeyl | s too specific for upstream |
| 17:20.54 | mickeyl | hrw: no idea. i can disclosure that it has to do with JTAG and Serial though |
| 17:23.01 | TheSHAD0W | Congrats for making Slashdot... |
| 17:23.33 | Odin-LAP | What made Slashdot? |
| 17:23.43 | TheSHAD0W | http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/01/20/1551200 |
| 17:23.55 | TheSHAD0W | OpenMoko Schedule Announced |
| 17:24.21 | TheSHAD0W | The phone looks very nice. What carriers will it be compatible with? |
| 17:24.47 | Sencer | all GSM carriers |
| 17:25.15 | nbd | i've really been waiting a long time for a phone that i can hack myself |
| 17:25.29 | nbd | because every phone on the market has its own annoyances in the user interface |
| 17:25.29 | TheSHAD0W | Pardon my ignorance, but which are those? Or if it's easier, what major carriers won't be compatible? |
| 17:25.43 | Odin-LAP | TheSHAD0W: Why do you assume there will be? |
| 17:26.06 | TheSHAD0W | I recall something about certain carriers being CDMA only. |
| 17:26.24 | Sencer | TheSHAD0W: which country are you in? |
| 17:26.29 | TheSHAD0W | US. |
| 17:26.56 | *** join/#openmoko Mortimus (n=mortimus@pool-71-250-104-223.nwrknj.east.verizon.net) |
| 17:27.29 | Sencer | TheSHAD0W: http://www.google.com/search?as_q=us+gsm+carriers |
| 17:28.01 | Odin-LAP | Is there a showstopper for Java on OpenMoko? |
| 17:28.28 | TheSHAD0W | Sencer: Thank you. |
| 17:28.57 | Sencer | Odin-LAP: No. |
| 17:29.17 | Odin-LAP | Why isn't it on the software list? :/ |
| 17:29.31 | TheSHAD0W | So for the US, Cingular and T-Mobile will be compatible. |
| 17:29.48 | *** join/#openmoko paulproteus (n=paulprot@pool-141-157-69-52.balt.east.verizon.net) |
| 17:30.03 | TheSHAD0W | Hm. It doesn't say what Nextel uses... |
| 17:30.22 | paulproteus | Are there any plans to have OpenMoko be interoperable with the effort that's been put in to development on the Maemo platform? |
| 17:30.32 | TheSHAD0W | Looks like Nextel offers GSM. |
| 17:30.39 | Sencer | Odin-LAP: Because of all the people that want java, nobody so far has been willing to work on it |
| 17:31.28 | TheSHAD0W | If the phone's popular, Sun will port Java to it themselves. |
| 17:31.40 | Odin-LAP | Sencer: Hm. Fair enough. It'd be the ME version, though, right? |
| 17:33.27 | Stefan_C | TheSHAD0W: nextel will never do gsm |
| 17:33.36 | mickeyl | paulproteus: plans yes, but that'll have to be considered when both platforms are equally mature. |
| 17:33.37 | TheSHAD0W | Stefan_C: Really? |
| 17:33.39 | Sencer | Odin-LAP: I would assume that ME is a more likely candidate, yes. |
| 17:34.04 | Odin-LAP | Sencer: I thought maybe the pure-GPL licencing of that was an issue for distribution. |
| 17:34.41 | Stefan_C | TheSHAD0W: 110% sure nextel will never do gsm |
| 17:34.48 | TheSHAD0W | Okie. |
| 17:35.02 | Odin-LAP | Stefan_C: Why? |
| 17:35.03 | Stefan_C | the only gsm providers in amera are cingular and t-mobile |
| 17:35.09 | Stefan_C | america |
| 17:35.22 | TheSHAD0W | Mmm, looks like there are some Nextel phones that can hop on GSM international networks, but I don't think they're selling them any more. |
| 17:35.24 | Stefan_C | sprint-nextel (they merged) as well as verizon use CDMA |
| 17:35.58 | paulproteus | The FIC OpenMoko phone is GSM, right? |
| 17:35.58 | TheSHAD0W | Too bad, I kinda like the walkie-talkie feature. |
| 17:36.07 | Odin-LAP | paulproteus: Yes. |
| 17:36.22 | paulproteus | Thank goodness. (-: |
| 17:36.27 | Odin-LAP | TheSHAD0W: "walkie-talkie"? |
| 17:36.35 | cephdon | push to talk |
| 17:36.36 | Stefan_C | yea PTT |
| 17:36.39 | mickeyl | one has to consider though that maemo has a fundamentally different UI paradigm |
| 17:37.00 | Odin-LAP | Isn't PTT possible in GSM? |
| 17:37.00 | Stefan_C | what was that paradigm? i missed it |
| 17:37.08 | mickeyl | according to Nokia they want to bring the desktop experience to an internet tablet. which is nice and all, but it doesn't work on a phone. |
| 17:37.47 | Stefan_C | you haven't used one of the latest nokia phones have you ... it's full html |
| 17:38.06 | mickeyl | no i didn't. been using SIEMENS for years and Sony Ericsson since |
| 17:38.31 | mickeyl | i was specifically talking about maemo though |
| 17:38.34 | mickeyl | which isn't deploy in any phone |
| 17:38.39 | mickeyl | (as far as I know) |
| 17:38.45 | Stefan_C | why would it be ... it isn't a phone platform |
| 17:38.47 | parag0n | i'd like to see j2me on the neo... maybe we should make a development bounty system, where people pledge money for people to develop the features they want |
| 17:38.53 | mickeyl | exactly what i was trying to say. |
| 17:39.02 | mickeyl | [regarding a possible fusion or synergy] |
| 17:39.37 | Stefan_C | wtf are you trying to say? |
| 17:39.44 | mickeyl | heh |
| 17:39.54 | mickeyl | read the log, dude |
| 17:39.55 | mickeyl | <paulproteus> Are there any plans to have OpenMoko be interoperable with the effort that's been put in to development on the Maemo platform? |
| 17:40.00 | mickeyl | <mickeyl> paulproteus: plans yes, but that'll have to be considered when both platforms are equally mature. |
| 17:40.03 | mickeyl | ... |
| 17:40.50 | paulproteus | mickeyl, To be clear, you mean Maemo is currently more mature, yes? |
| 17:41.01 | mickeyl | absolutely. it's been developed for at least 2 years now |
| 17:41.09 | mickeyl | OpenMoko is 6 months old |
| 17:41.13 | paulproteus | mickeyl, And I appreciate the thoughts on "Maemo is a portable PC" vs. "OpenMoko is a cell phone". |
| 17:41.20 | CM | I'm curious on how their gps work is going |
| 17:41.35 | CM | and how much of that can be reused |
| 17:42.45 | mickeyl | i will look closely at least at both their GPS framework and their Alarm framework |
| 17:43.00 | Odin-LAP | Heeh. :p |
| 17:44.00 | Odin-LAP | I *think* that could be possible with OpenMoko... 8) |
| 17:44.42 | Odin-LAP | Although the performance of Bluetooth is an open question... |
| 17:44.45 | kripkenstein | Will there be a web browser on the Neo1973? (I don't see it mentioned anywhere in the website. The 128MB RAM is a bit worrying) |
| 17:45.22 | CM | kripkenstein: Worrying? If you want firefox maybe it would be.. ;) |
| 17:45.27 | *** part/#openmoko pygi (n=mario@89-172-206-23.adsl.net.t-com.hr) |
| 17:46.01 | kripkenstein | CM: yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking, Firefox ;) ... but what alternatives are there, for a GTK+ setting, really? |
| 17:46.13 | koen | WebKit |
| 17:46.46 | kripkenstein | koen: last I checked (few months ago), there wasn't an up-to-date port of webkit to Gtk+ |
| 17:46.56 | Odin-LAP | What about "other Gecko"? |
| 17:47.08 | koen | kripkenstein: there is now |
| 17:47.15 | koen | both of webcore and webkit |
| 17:47.22 | kripkenstein | koen: oh, that is excellent news, then |
| 17:47.28 | *** join/#openmoko srikantux (n=sri@59.92.154.165) |
| 17:48.03 | kripkenstein | so a webkit-based browser would make the most sense, for 128MB of RAM |
| 17:48.15 | koen | even for 32mb ram |
| 17:48.44 | kripkenstein | koen: you are referring to gtk-webcore? |
| 17:49.06 | koen | kripkenstein: both to gtk-webcore and webkit/gdk |
| 17:49.19 | koen | I've seen both running on a n770 |
| 17:49.43 | mickeyl | i just can't remember his name |
| 17:49.47 | mickeyl | *sigh* |
| 17:50.09 | kripkenstein | the last gtk-webcore release is 2004, it says on sourceforge... what am I missing? |
| 17:50.16 | koen | mickeyl: zecke has webkit working inside sugar |
| 17:50.45 | koen | kripkenstein: http://gtk-webcore.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/gtk-webcore/ |
| 17:51.06 | *** join/#openmoko DrStrangelove (n=adjfajds@p5486D8C8.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 17:51.13 | DrStrangelove | hey |
| 17:51.14 | koen | mickeyl: alp in #openmoko L) |
| 17:51.21 | koen | s/L/:/ |
| 17:51.32 | Mortimus | someone should post this on digg |
| 17:51.42 | Mortimus | if it has not been done already |
| 17:51.45 | *** join/#openmoko LoRez (i=lorez@freenode/staff/lorez) |
| 17:52.08 | DrStrangelove | wow, big chan |
| 17:52.22 | mickeyl | koen: oops. thanks |
| 17:52.26 | kripkenstein | koen: ok, thanks |
| 17:52.42 | koen | mickeyl: I only found out yesterday :) |
| 17:53.56 | CM | koen: I suspect I tricked him to join since I was talking about #openmoko in #muine ;) |
| 17:54.22 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@9.80-202-160.nextgentel.com) |
| 17:55.42 | DrStrangelove | I read on the page that the phone will only have usb 1.1 and no wlan, is this right? |
| 17:55.58 | CM | DrStrangelove: Yes |
| 17:55.59 | koen | correct |
| 17:56.02 | zipola | Oooh, I'm in extacy looking at that Dasher demo. |
| 17:57.02 | DrStrangelove | :( |
| 17:57.05 | DrStrangelove | too bad |
| 17:57.58 | DrStrangelove | perhaps the 2nd version will have such things |
| 17:58.38 | CM | zipola: You mean these? http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher/images/newdasher.gif |
| 17:58.54 | zipola | That one. |
| 17:58.58 | *** join/#openmoko salty-horse (n=ori@pdpc/supporter/active/salty-horse) |
| 17:59.14 | CM | Looks crazy, but it would be fun to try it |
| 17:59.28 | noidd | whee |
| 17:59.29 | salty-horse | hi. is the openmoko code available in a public repository? |
| 17:59.39 | noidd | just finishing my first electronic project of the year |
| 17:59.40 | koen | not yet |
| 17:59.43 | noidd | new bench PSU |
| 17:59.46 | koen | salty-horse: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-January/000000.html |
| 17:59.49 | *** join/#openmoko jtoy (n=jtoy@c-24-60-178-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 17:59.49 | zipola | CM: What's best is that it support different alphabets and languages. |
| 17:59.55 | noidd | to test my second project of the year - my midi controller - heh |
| 18:00.03 | CM | zipola: I noticed. I want åäö ;) |
| 18:00.37 | zipola | I'll do fine with just ä and ö :) |
| 18:01.01 | salty-horse | koen, read that already :) |
| 18:01.35 | Mortimus | i lost my wireless mouse |
| 18:02.23 | CM | Hehe.. Bluetooth mouse for the Neo would be weird |
| 18:03.11 | TheSHAD0W | Hmmmm... |
| 18:03.18 | Mortimus | but a wireless keyboard would be nice |
| 18:03.23 | TheSHAD0W | I've seen this weird trackball meant for laptops... |
| 18:03.28 | *** join/#openmoko cktakahasi (n=cktakaha@20150163116.user.veloxzone.com.br) |
| 18:03.38 | TheSHAD0W | It fits on the index finger like a ring and you manipulate it w/ your thumb... |
| 18:03.54 | TheSHAD0W | It was wired, but I suppose you could build one w/ Bluetooth instead... |
| 18:04.13 | TheSHAD0W | Then all you'd need is a Bluetooth heads-up display. 8v)~ |
| 18:04.36 | salty-horse | will there be tools to run openmoko software without the phone hardware? |
| 18:06.33 | *** join/#openmoko tlockney (n=tlockney@71.237.141.236) |
| 18:06.34 | Stefan_C | you mean an emulator? |
| 18:06.54 | CM | salty-horse: Yes |
| 18:07.20 | *** join/#openmoko gerrynjr (n=gerrynjr@gentoo/developer/gerrynjr) |
| 18:07.23 | salty-horse | yes, Stefan_C |
| 18:07.28 | gerrynjr | curious, will this phone support EVDO? |
| 18:07.42 | koen | no |
| 18:07.46 | koen | it's a gsm phone |
| 18:07.48 | gerrynjr | oh well 8-/ |
| 18:07.50 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (i=foobar@dslb-084-057-147-025.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 18:07.54 | gerrynjr | was hoping for dual band support |
| 18:08.01 | LoRez | gerrynjr: it's quad band. |
| 18:08.12 | yacc | DrStrangelove: To add to the insult, it will be unpowered USB ;) |
| 18:08.17 | gerrynjr | well, by dual band, was hoping for GSM _and_ EVDO support |
| 18:08.23 | Odin-LAP | CM, zipola: Dasher already does those, actually. |
| 18:08.24 | Mortimus | what are the advantages of EVDO verses GSM? |
| 18:08.26 | gerrynjr | I probably used the wrong terminology |
| 18:08.38 | koen | evdo is a cdma thing |
| 18:08.43 | Tv | Mortimus: worse operators?-) |
| 18:09.15 | Mortimus | both have bad operators |
| 18:09.28 | Mortimus | i mean 10c for a text message |
| 18:09.33 | LoRez | EVDO is pretty much just sprint/nextel, right? |
| 18:09.39 | Mortimus | verizon too |
| 18:09.46 | gerrynjr | LoRez: and verizon |
| 18:09.53 | Odin-LAP | Mortimus: The U.S. has miserable cell operators in general. |
| 18:10.05 | LoRez | ewww |
| 18:10.13 | Mortimus | yea and it spreading to the ISP's |
| 18:11.08 | Mortimus | blocking, throttling ports and wanting to have a tiered network |
| 18:11.25 | gerrynjr | heh, i got a good deal w/ sprint |
| 18:11.39 | Mortimus | US likes stagnation and war |
| 18:11.40 | Stefan_C | well a shit ton of spectrum is going to be unleashed once we go digital ... but fuck me if that won't be pushed back another 6 times |
| 18:11.44 | gerrynjr | 500 minutes, unlimited data 500 txts nights at 6pm |
| 18:11.52 | gerrynjr | for 30 bucks |
| 18:12.10 | buz | mhh slashbots are at it |
| 18:12.18 | Mortimus | what are taxes |
| 18:12.29 | Mortimus | i pay like 3 bucks on taxes |
| 18:12.39 | Stefan_C | oh lord 3 bux! |
| 18:12.40 | gerrynjr | 3 bucks |
| 18:12.46 | DrStrangelove | yacc, the phone does not match to my needs. I need a phone with wlan or such stuff. and I think this is not esoteric hardware today |
| 18:12.47 | Mortimus | i know someone that pays 10 bucks |
| 18:12.50 | Mortimus | same plan |
| 18:13.02 | gerrynjr | ppc6700 has wifi 8- |
| 18:13.03 | gerrynjr | 0 |
| 18:13.09 | Stefan_C | Nokia E61 has wifi |
| 18:13.12 | yacc | DrStrangelove: Why do you need wlan? (I noticed that I almost never use WLAN on my phone) |
| 18:13.15 | gerrynjr | but.. crummy windows |
| 18:13.27 | DrStrangelove | skype, for exaple |
| 18:13.28 | Odin-LAP | DrStrangelove: The problem is the lack of power-efficient chipsets with free drivers. |
| 18:13.33 | yacc | DrStrangelove: Or put differently, do you have already a phone with wlan and use it? |
| 18:13.41 | Stefan_C | i use wlan all the time |
| 18:13.43 | Stefan_C | for voip |
| 18:13.48 | nbd | me too |
| 18:13.51 | Stefan_C | i have a local number in the UK |
| 18:13.53 | gerrynjr | same here |
| 18:13.57 | *** join/#openmoko PirateHead (n=piratehe@AC802637.ipt.aol.com) |
| 18:14.17 | yacc | DrStrangelove: Not the VoIP discussion yet again. => cheap hotspots are rare in most places on this planet ;) |
| 18:14.32 | Stefan_C | my university is blanketed |
| 18:14.36 | Mortimus | unsecure networks are common in the us |
| 18:14.39 | paulproteus | yacc, I would use it for constant synchronizing of podcasts and schedules. |
| 18:14.40 | DrStrangelove | I dont want to start a flamewar ;) |
| 18:15.08 | DrStrangelove | but I think the power problem will be much bigger than the wlan stuff |
| 18:15.09 | Stefan_C | paulproteus brings up podcasts as well, my nokia has a podcasting app that grabs podcasts if it detects my homes wifi network |
| 18:15.20 | gerrynjr | then again, w/ unlimited data, who needs wifi... |
| 18:15.37 | Stefan_C | because even EVDO is 5x slower than my wifi connection |
| 18:15.37 | paulproteus | Then again, with wifi, who needs data over the cell network. (-; |
| 18:16.07 | Mortimus | have to every tried to adjust your up/down speeds |
| 18:16.11 | Stefan_C | now EVDO revision C, which is called UMB, is supposed to be as good as 100 mbit ethernet |
| 18:16.11 | paulproteus | Anyway, we won't get it on openmoko, so no big point discussing it here. I know I want it, and have good reasons. (-: |
| 18:16.18 | yacc | paulproteus: you can do that with BT well enough. The only benefit of WLAN is that it's offered on-the-road. |
| 18:16.20 | DrStrangelove | the linux phones I saw had to recarche every one or two days |
| 18:16.25 | DrStrangelove | thats a problem |
| 18:16.26 | Stefan_C | that's not supposed to materialize until 08-09 tho |
| 18:16.39 | paulproteus | yacc, I can't do that with Bluetooth unless I also have Bluetooth IP connectivity.... |
| 18:16.57 | Stefan_C | DrStrangelove: most phones today don't last more than 3 days without needing to be plugged in |
| 18:17.16 | gerrynjr | ppc gives me a week |
| 18:17.20 | DrStrangelove | stefan_C, didnt notice... |
| 18:17.34 | Mortimus | 7 days but i NEVER use it I lose it |
| 18:17.35 | yacc | paulproteus: And Bluetooth IP connectivity costs you a EUR10 BT USB dongle. |
| 18:17.36 | zipola | Oh yes, I installed Dasher and it works really nicely. |
| 18:18.04 | DrStrangelove | my old blackberry gave me 6--7 days, at least |
| 18:18.16 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (i=foobar@dslb-084-057-147-025.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 18:18.20 | paulproteus | yacc, I'm new to the smart phone stuff, can you explain what you mean? |
| 18:18.31 | paulproteus | yacc, Oh, I see, I plug that dongle into a laptop that has wifi and then share it via BT. |
| 18:18.38 | paulproteus | But then my laptop has to be on.... |
| 18:18.47 | Mortimus | yes |
| 18:19.45 | buz | you could always get an access point with usb port |
| 18:20.03 | yacc | paulproteus: or you plug it into your home internet gateway box. ;) |
| 18:20.21 | paulproteus | Well, I'm going to move to San Francisco soon, and Google plans to give free wifi there over 802.11, so maybe I should ask them to also give free Internet over BT. (-; |
| 18:20.34 | paulproteus | Anyway, I'm just kidding around. (-: |
| 18:20.35 | gerrynjr | good idea |
| 18:21.45 | Mortimus | verizon people can cancel their plans soon due to TXT messaging hike |
| 18:23.34 | yacc | paulproteus: The question is if the free wifi will be IP-level connected to the Internet. Going trough a http proxy breaks many of "our" uses for a Wifi :( |
| 18:24.03 | WillySilly | hi paulproteus |
| 18:24.04 | paulproteus | It's Google providing it, they're full of geeks. I'm sure e.g. ssh will work. |
| 18:24.11 | paulproteus | Hi WillySilly! |
| 18:24.38 | WillySilly | Figured I'd see you in here sooner or later |
| 18:24.54 | paulproteus | WillySilly, Hah, why's that? |
| 18:25.26 | WillySilly | Just a gut feeling |
| 18:25.57 | paulproteus | I've been trying to figure out what the next phone I get will be. Looks like it might be a Series 60 by Nokia for now, and an OpenMoko in a year or two. |
| 18:26.15 | paulproteus | But I'm also planning to turn my Nintendo DS into a wifi-enabled PDA, which might decrease my need for wifi. (-: |
| 18:26.30 | paulproteus | Anyway, I'll be back in ca. 30m. |
| 18:26.48 | WillySilly | I have my Nokia 770 |
| 18:27.23 | Mortimus | does 770 work as a phone too? |
| 18:27.40 | WillySilly | no |
| 18:28.38 | *** join/#openmoko ciastek (n=ciastek@procent.miedzylesie.waw.pl) |
| 18:29.39 | *** join/#openmoko Jeroen (i=jeroen@neonescio.viaisn.org) |
| 18:34.50 | yacc | Mortimus: only for VoIP ;) |
| 18:39.11 | *** join/#openmoko dilinger (n=dilinger@c-66-30-13-122.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 18:39.35 | *** part/#openmoko tlockney (n=tlockney@71.237.141.236) |
| 18:43.02 | morricone | lists.openmoko.org is slow... |
| 18:43.16 | benJIman | slashdot linked to it |
| 18:43.30 | LoRez | yeah, I'm sure this channel's gonna get hammered. |
| 18:46.53 | *** join/#openmoko tnt__ (n=tnt@101.151-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) |
| 18:47.24 | aloril | passed ##windows now: http://irc.netsplit.de/channels/?net=freenode&query=&num=40 |
| 18:49.57 | tnt__ | Damn, I wish they included a wifi chipset in that phone ... |
| 18:50.20 | ozamosi | It really sucks that it's on slashdot. |
| 18:50.31 | *** join/#openmoko cying (n=cying@adsl-75-18-216-208.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) |
| 18:50.57 | ozamosi | There's gonna be LOTS who will want to get it at the developer release now, and there'll be a queue, and I'll never get one :( |
| 18:51.22 | yacc | ozamosi: March is not that bad either. |
| 18:51.26 | cying | has signups begun yet? |
| 18:51.37 | ozamosi | yacc: I'm talking about march |
| 18:51.46 | tnt__ | ozamosi: Hoping for it to stay 'secret' for 3 month was kinda wishful thinking ... |
| 18:51.54 | yacc | ozamosi: March should have open sales. |
| 18:51.54 | aloril | somebody is going to get his mailbox slashdotted ;-) |
| 18:51.55 | ozamosi | tnt__: of course! :) |
| 18:52.11 | ozamosi | yacc: yes, open. But there's still a limited supply. |
| 18:52.35 | aloril | ozamosi: I doubt they run out in < 24h (unless they underestimate by big margin) |
| 18:52.41 | cying | is there a soft emulator? |
| 18:52.50 | yacc | ozamosi: they out-produce even /. (I think it's a Linux version of a Winmobile being sold in China, right?) |
| 18:53.27 | ozamosi | aloril: with my luck, I'm sure my internet connection will break just until they run out :( |
| 18:55.13 | tnt__ | ozamosi: Maybe they should take pre-sale with a down payment, so they can anticipate how many to produce ... |
| 18:55.15 | aloril | cying: openmoko specific stuff will be released at 2007-02-11 (according to announcement), other stuff is available now |
| 18:55.27 | cying | other stuff? |
| 18:55.35 | cying | aloril: like GTK or openembedded? |
| 18:55.35 | aloril | http://projects.o-hand.com/xoo/ http://www.openembedded.org/ |
| 18:55.43 | koen | www.gtk.org |
| 18:56.32 | cying | ooooh |
| 18:57.04 | aloril | http://fabrice.bellard.free.fr/qemu/ |
| 18:57.07 | cying | thanks aloril / koen |
| 18:57.18 | cying | is it all compilable out of the box? |
| 18:57.28 | cying | or need some hacking to set up a dev environment? |
| 18:57.51 | *** join/#openmoko init_alx (i=alx@gotnull.net) |
| 18:58.06 | init_alx | woo linux cell phone...finally! :D |
| 18:58.32 | tnt__ | init_alx: open linux cell phone ... (linux cell phone already exists ;) |
| 18:58.41 | aloril | http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001505.html |
| 18:58.52 | init_alx | tnt__: :D |
| 18:59.25 | *** join/#openmoko high-rez (i=gus@carrera.bourg.net) |
| 18:59.31 | *** part/#openmoko salty-horse (n=ori@pdpc/supporter/active/salty-horse) |
| 18:59.38 | cying | :) |
| 18:59.40 | cying | thanks |
| 18:59.41 | high-rez | Which GSM bands are supported? I don't see this information listed anywhere. |
| 18:59.54 | LoRez | all 4 |
| 18:59.59 | high-rez | EXcellent. |
| 19:00.34 | cying | someone ought to build a vmware image |
| 19:00.48 | high-rez | That sets it ahead of the greenphone which doesn't work well with one of the two major us carriers, given it lacks GSM850. |
| 19:01.57 | high-rez | LoRez: So when will there be a UMTS/HSDPA 1900/2100 version? :D |
| 19:01.59 | koen | at the time of the presentation the greenphone wasn't open and qtopia wasn't gpl |
| 19:03.07 | aloril | koen: it is open now? |
| 19:03.17 | koen | aloril: not entirely |
| 19:03.32 | koen | SXE, drm and some other bits are still closed |
| 19:03.39 | high-rez | koen: Not every bit of it is based on the gpl?> |
| 19:04.07 | koen | not by a long shot |
| 19:04.11 | LoRez | high-rez: no idea. I'm not on the coreteam :) |
| 19:04.11 | high-rez | Oh that sucks. |
| 19:04.43 | koen | everything in openmoko, minus the gps daemon is open source |
| 19:05.03 | high-rez | LoRez: Any idea if anyone here is? I got some questions from the carrier perspective. ;) |
| 19:05.12 | LoRez | mickeyl is. |
| 19:05.24 | LoRez | or claims to be ;) |
| 19:08.16 | *** join/#openmoko exastra (n=go@24.21.152.246) |
| 19:08.29 | high-rez | They really need to advertise it's a gsm phone and that it supports 850/900/1800/1900 on that specs page if that's the case. |
| 19:08.47 | *** join/#openmoko seb31 (n=flo@84.6.135.54) |
| 19:08.55 | yacc | high-rez: it is, AFAIK. |
| 19:09.09 | aloril | koen: drm sounds ominous |
| 19:09.12 | morricone | not anymore http://www.openmoko.com/press |
| 19:09.41 | yacc | high-rez: What is not known yet which GRPS speed class it will have. |
| 19:10.23 | high-rez | Doesn't broadcomm make a quadband phone-in-chip that does gprs&edge? I kinda wonder why they didn't go that route. |
| 19:10.25 | yacc | morricone: I think it was mentioned on the mailing list. |
| 19:10.38 | koen | the press release clearly states: * GSM850/900/1800/1900 compatibility for network support in Europe, Asia |
| 19:10.38 | yacc | high-rez: license issues? |
| 19:10.38 | koen | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:10.44 | *** join/#openmoko StikkitJim (n=James@cpc1-staf3-0-0-cust99.sol2.cable.ntl.com) |
| 19:11.08 | *** join/#openmoko cpn (n=root@71-222-211-140.albq.qwest.net) |
| 19:11.21 | *** join/#openmoko mcmillen (n=mcmillen@GS3080.SP.CS.CMU.EDU) |
| 19:11.25 | high-rez | koen: Where? I just looked for 850 and i see nothing on www.openmoko.com/press ? |
| 19:12.26 | koen | I said "Press release", didn't I? |
| 19:12.26 | aloril | I think http://www.openmoko.com/press/index.html has not been updated since it was created |
| 19:12.26 | morricone | high-rez, in the pdf |
| 19:12.27 | aloril | maybe somebody should update it now? |
| 19:12.39 | koen | "Press Releases" is the first link on http://www.openmoko.com/press |
| 19:12.49 | morricone | probably, but it has been updated |
| 19:13.09 | *** join/#openmoko looshin (n=looshin@cpc4-with4-0-0-cust109.bagu.cable.ntl.com) |
| 19:15.04 | yacc | the initial mtn pull is painful slow and/or huge :( |
| 19:15.12 | aloril | koen: hmm.. yeah, announce list is linked from http://www.openmoko.com/ so its available |
| 19:15.12 | *** join/#openmoko xFallenAngel (n=Fallen@napoleon.kewis.ch) |
| 19:18.06 | high-rez | will you have the ability to read the imei from the linux interface, or is that abstracted through some piece of hardware? |
| 19:18.15 | high-rez | err s/imei/imsi |
| 19:20.22 | *** join/#openmoko _JP (i=jaxr@jolt.modeemi.cs.tut.fi) |
| 19:24.12 | *** part/#openmoko looshin (n=looshin@cpc4-with4-0-0-cust109.bagu.cable.ntl.com) |
| 19:25.00 | *** join/#openmoko looshin (n=looshin@cpc4-with4-0-0-cust109.bagu.cable.ntl.com) |
| 19:25.27 | *** part/#openmoko wolfbone (n=wolfbone@host86-128-98-61.range86-128.btcentralplus.com) |
| 19:34.53 | *** join/#openmoko terrex (n=terrex@84-122-63-17.onocable.ono.com) |
| 19:38.18 | *** join/#openmoko piratepenguin (n=declan@213-202-138-179.bas502.dsl.esat.net) |
| 19:39.09 | *** join/#openmoko ryd_ (n=ryd@nons.de) |
| 19:39.48 | *** join/#openmoko gnumark (n=newm@adsl-ull-59-220.41-151.net24.it) |
| 19:56.54 | *** join/#openmoko tr2x (n=alvar@80-218-185-55.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 19:56.54 | greentux_ | high-rez: IMEI should not be an problem. |
| 19:57.48 | *** join/#openmoko olegfink (n=olegfink@pppoe-17.10.110.89-adsl.spbnit.ru) |
| 19:57.55 | olegfink | hi |
| 19:58.21 | high-rez | And the IMSI? |
| 19:58.54 | olegfink | what is openmoko like? Debian/Slackware/its own |
| 19:59.12 | olegfink | In the sense of package management/initialisation/etc? |
| 19:59.16 | greentux_ | why not, you have a AT interface to the gsm modul. like a umts card in a notebook. you can read these infos via AT |
| 20:00.40 | koen | olegfink: debian-based, built using openembedded |
| 20:00.40 | *** join/#openmoko l4rs (n=laprican@hsiproxy.astra-net.com) |
| 20:00.58 | olegfink | oh no |
| 20:01.22 | koen | oh yes |
| 20:03.44 | olegfink | koen: so I will have to write these novels also known as bbfiles? |
| 20:06.29 | *** join/#openmoko vosen (n=v0@86-63-84-163.asta-net.com.pl) |
| 20:06.55 | *** join/#openmoko avatar_ (n=chatzill@pool-141-155-108-113.ny5030.east.verizon.net) |
| 20:24.58 | kripkenstein | Apologies to be one of those people, but there is a typo on the front page of www.openmoko.com. The "!." should be "!" |
| 20:28.39 | *** join/#openmoko Kerberos (n=Kerberos@189.160.75.56) |
| 20:29.55 | *** join/#openmoko keny (n=bl0pa@adslusr195-016-143-057.bitmailer.com) |
| 20:30.33 | *** join/#openmoko Stepan (n=Stepan@khepri.openbios.org) |
| 20:30.36 | Stepan | hi |
| 20:30.45 | Kerberos | Hi stepan |
| 20:30.51 | *** join/#openmoko A3N (n=Miranda@adsl-dyn99.91-127-30.t-com.sk) |
| 20:33.19 | *** join/#openmoko wycats (n=wycats@ool-182f95fa.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 20:33.23 | wycats | Hey guys |
| 20:33.57 | aloril | hi |
| 20:34.03 | Kerberos | hi |
| 20:34.04 | rwhitby | morning all |
| 20:34.18 | koen | hey rwhitby |
| 20:34.20 | wycats | :-D |
| 20:34.23 | Kerberos | idem, but here is 2:30pm :-) |
| 20:34.25 | *** part/#openmoko kripkenstein (n=alon@89-139-11-20.bb.netvision.net.il) |
| 20:34.32 | koen | ~ugt |
| 20:34.44 | apt | extra, extra, read all about it, ugt is Universial Greeting Time. Created in #mipslinux, it is a rule that states that whenever somebody enters an IRC channel it is always morning, and it is always late when the person leaves. The local time of any other people in the channel, including the greeter, is irrelevant. http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html |
| 20:34.54 | rwhitby | thx koen |
| 20:34.57 | wycats | lol |
| 20:35.03 | wycats | so I'm a software developer who read about OpenMoko on Slashdot (surprise surprise) |
| 20:35.07 | Kerberos | lol |
| 20:35.18 | wycats | I had a couple of questions that I couldn't work out simply from reading the (rather sparse) OpenMoko site |
| 20:35.32 | rwhitby | wycats: got the slashdot link? |
| 20:35.48 | wycats | http://hardware.slashdot.org/hardware/07/01/20/1551200.shtml |
| 20:36.02 | rwhitby | thx |
| 20:36.16 | wycats | so first up, what kind of input does OpenMoko have? |
| 20:36.29 | wycats | a soft-keyboard? |
| 20:39.12 | koen | rwhitby: don't bother :) |
| 20:39.25 | rwhitby | koen: heh :-) |
| 20:39.41 | koen | unless you like trolls |
| 20:39.47 | koen | rwhitby: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-January/000000.html |
| 20:39.57 | Stepan | nice stuff, with an arm compatible cpu |
| 20:41.03 | koen | s/compatible// |
| 20:41.06 | Stepan | yeah well, a samsung soc |
| 20:41.21 | wycats | ? |
| 20:41.23 | Stepan | i wonder if this would make a good candidate for a linuxbios port |
| 20:41.25 | piratepenguin | wycats, I posted about dasher to the list a few mins ago. http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher/ I'd love to see it in use |
| 20:41.34 | aloril | wycats: I think input is one thing where there will be innovation before final 2007-09-11 release |
| 20:41.40 | piratepenguin | wycats, but I think it's a soft keyboard |
| 20:42.37 | wycats | interesting |
| 20:42.41 | rwhitby | koen: I was around for that bit |
| 20:42.45 | *** join/#openmoko _rob_ (n=rob@ACB14DFB.ipt.aol.com) |
| 20:42.51 | wycats | I wonder if making use of the way Apple does its soft-keyboard in the iPhone would be possible |
| 20:43.07 | piratepenguin | what does apple do? |
| 20:43.24 | wycats | I'm not sure... but their soft-keyboard seems to allow better precision with a smaller space |
| 20:43.24 | piratepenguin | tengo.net I think that's what they might be going with |
| 20:43.42 | aloril | wycats: that one sounds inefficient and in practice hard to use, this looks more promising: http://www.strout.net/info/ideas/hexinput.html |
| 20:44.19 | wycats | the other question I had was whether the OpenMoko project would be open to a widgety-type framework that would allow software developers to create XHTML/CSS/JS mini-apps |
| 20:44.20 | koen | rwhitby: ah, in that case: no real news |
| 20:44.59 | wycats | I was pretty disappointed that the iPhone doesn't support user-contributed widgets |
| 20:45.00 | wycats | but... |
| 20:45.38 | wycats | HTML/CSS/JS widgets can do a lot, but they're very simple to create for web-devs |
| 20:47.10 | Odin-LAP | Such a system is possible, but I don't think it's planned immediately. |
| 20:48.30 | wycats | is there likely to be a browser built-in? |
| 20:49.55 | Odin-LAP | I'd assume not initially, |
| 20:50.18 | wycats | hmmm |
| 20:51.11 | Odin-LAP | One will likely appear fairly soon, though. |
| 20:51.40 | Odin-LAP | Maybe even before online orders open... Dunno, though. |
| 20:52.02 | wycats | makes sense |
| 20:52.21 | wycats | :) |
| 20:52.29 | wycats | widgets, especially ones that can access the Internet, can do a whole lot |
| 20:52.40 | wycats | and you'd be likely to get a whole bunch of small apps very rapidly |
| 20:52.42 | *** join/#openmoko careo (n=djensen@63.105.24.89) |
| 20:52.47 | Odin-LAP | wycats: Indeed. |
| 20:52.59 | wycats | :-D |
| 20:53.38 | Odin-LAP | wycats: What I'm interested in, though, is rerouting voice comms to provide short-range bidirectional encrypted radio. 8) |
| 20:53.47 | wycats | that's cool |
| 20:54.20 | Odin-LAP | Not sure if the CPU is powerful enough to do it properly, though. |
| 20:54.39 | Odin-LAP | piratepenguin: Gecko isn't *that* bad, is it? |
| 20:54.41 | cying | webkit |
| 20:54.43 | cying | far far simpler |
| 20:54.55 | cying | mozilla has a lot of abstraction layers |
| 20:55.34 | *** join/#openmoko kaatis (i=jkataja@nat/movial/x-f98b055dbdde1e78) |
| 20:55.38 | Odin-LAP | Moko is Gtk+-based, right? |
| 20:55.47 | ozamosi | Webkit actually does what it should, most of the time :) |
| 20:56.10 | koen | Odin-LAP: yes |
| 20:56.11 | ozamosi | But without requiring a gigabyte of ram :) |
| 20:56.14 | piratepenguin | is webkit completely not non-free? |
| 20:56.20 | cying | lgpl i believe |
| 20:56.32 | piratepenguin | homepage says "portions..." |
| 20:57.07 | koen | http://trac.webkit.org/projects/webkit/browser/trunk/WebCore/platform/gdk |
| 20:57.25 | *** join/#openmoko Ganneff (n=joerg@debian/developer/joerg) |
| 20:57.29 | piratepenguin | cying, I think everybody agrees that BSD is free :/ |
| 20:57.37 | cying | hmmm |
| 20:57.54 | cying | piratepenguin: i've sometimes seen some linux zealots insist that GPL is the only free |
| 20:57.58 | Odin-LAP | The FSF certainly does. |
| 20:58.12 | koen | bsd minus advertising clause is fine |
| 20:58.36 | piratepenguin | cying, well the GPL insists on free.. it's for people who will work for freedom, I guess |
| 20:58.37 | ozamosi | BSD _is_ free. GPL is only free if you can accept certain restrictions that are supposed to be good in the long term |
| 20:58.45 | wycats | what's cool is that if you use webkit, you're halfway there to a reasonable widget framework ;) ;) |
| 20:58.55 | piratepenguin | indeed |
| 20:58.55 | cying | more than half way |
| 20:58.55 | wycats | GPL is free enough |
| 20:59.09 | piratepenguin | wycats, GPL is completely free.... |
| 20:59.10 | wycats | cying: You wouldn't be allowed to use Apple's widget stuff |
| 20:59.19 | wycats | I was responding to ozamosi |
| 20:59.19 | piratepenguin | build our own! |
| 20:59.20 | cying | huh? |
| 20:59.22 | wycats | exactly |
| 20:59.25 | wycats | hence: half-way |
| 20:59.29 | wycats | it's really easy |
| 20:59.40 | cying | what widget stuff? |
| 20:59.44 | Odin-LAP | ozamosi: What restrictions? |
| 20:59.47 | wycats | Apple has a widget library |
| 20:59.49 | cying | webkit binds to cocoa |
| 20:59.53 | cying | that won't port |
| 20:59.53 | wycats | not necessary |
| 20:59.56 | cying | oh |
| 21:00.00 | cying | you mean Widgets |
| 21:00.00 | wycats | webkit doesn't need to bind to cocoa |
| 21:00.03 | wycats | yeah |
| 21:00.12 | wycats | there's a Windows version of webkit |
| 21:00.12 | cying | DashboardKonfabulatorGoogleGadgets Widgets |
| 21:00.15 | wycats | lol |
| 21:00.24 | wycats | I don't really care what it's called |
| 21:00.35 | cying | well |
| 21:00.37 | wycats | I just think that allowing them as an alternative application format on OpenMoko would help |
| 21:00.45 | cying | what i mean to say is that |
| 21:00.46 | ozamosi | Odin-LAP: for instance, I can't give a friend a GPL binary, unless I also give him the source and/or tell him where to get it. |
| 21:00.53 | cying | if you guys really want openmoko to compete effectively |
| 21:00.57 | paulproteus | For the license flamewar, let me interject that GNU/FSF says the BSD is a Free license, but the GPL is a copyleft license. |
| 21:00.57 | *** join/#openmoko blueandwhiteg3 (n=blueandw@c-67-168-9-80.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
| 21:01.03 | cying | you got to throw out the gtk and Qt style UI widget frameworks |
| 21:01.08 | paulproteus | They consider copyleft to be something above and beyond Free, FWIW. |
| 21:01.12 | cying | and do something more modern like use WebKit for UI |
| 21:01.22 | piratepenguin | paulproteus, so every licensing discussion is a framewar now? ;) |
| 21:01.33 | wycats | cying: I think *allowing* webkit for UI would be adequate |
| 21:01.45 | ozamosi | paulproteus: sorry, I'll try not to start a war. OTOH, starting wars is what I do best :) |
| 21:01.50 | piratepenguin | will Qt work on moko too (it's so easy to type mojo instead lol)? I mean embeeded stuff is like it's bread & butter.. it might be nice to play with Qtopia on moko |
| 21:02.00 | Odin-LAP | ozamosi: I ... see. Strictly, in fact, the latter option isn't open either. |
| 21:02.02 | cying | wycats: as long as it's easy and made first class citizen, i agree. |
| 21:02.22 | wycats | the first question is whether webkit can be made to run on OpenMoko |
| 21:02.30 | wycats | the CPU may just be too slow |
| 21:02.35 | cying | what is it? |
| 21:02.41 | paulproteus | 486 SX/33 |
| 21:02.44 | paulproteus | j/k (-: |
| 21:02.45 | wycats | lol |
| 21:02.48 | cying | :P |
| 21:02.48 | wycats | 8088 |
| 21:02.52 | wycats | XT |
| 21:03.00 | cying | pffft |
| 21:03.04 | cying | seriously |
| 21:03.10 | *** join/#openmoko pleemans (n=peter@d51A5E76A.access.telenet.be) |
| 21:03.12 | cying | ARM7? ARM9? mhz? |
| 21:03.28 | paulproteus | cying, http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-January/000000.html has specs |
| 21:03.48 | paulproteus | http://www.samsung.com/Products/Semiconductor/MobileSoC/ApplicationProcessor/ARM9Series/S3C2410/S3C2410.htm is the Samsung link |
| 21:03.49 | cying | oh |
| 21:03.56 | cying | ARM9 266 Mhz |
| 21:04.01 | cying | that'll DEFINITELY run webkit |
| 21:04.14 | cying | jesus |
| 21:04.20 | piratepenguin | cying, WebKit for UI.. I like that idea. Would it be up for it tho? I know gecko would, because it powers the Firefox/Thunderbird/etc UI, all of it.. |
| 21:04.34 | wycats | webkit runs OSX Dashboard widgets |
| 21:04.38 | cying | piratepenguin: my experience is yes |
| 21:04.46 | cying | piratepenguin: i used to do real mobile phone UI frameworks at openwave |
| 21:05.02 | piratepenguin | cying, ah cool.. I'll have to look at it |
| 21:05.03 | blueandwhiteg3 | I'm looking the 'preliminary' specs on this phone and they strike me as a bit unusual - Beautiful VGA screen but only GPRS? No mention of frequency support? |
| 21:05.03 | Odin-LAP | cying: "real" as opposed to what? |
| 21:05.04 | cying | piratepenguin: and webkit is more than enough to power the set of apps you would build for mobile phones |
| 21:05.14 | wycats | cying: precisely |
| 21:05.18 | cying | Odin-LAP: mass-market feature phones |
| 21:05.21 | wycats | I think we're saying the same thing :-D |
| 21:05.27 | cying | Odin-LAP: vs. smartphones / PDA phones |
| 21:05.40 | Odin-LAP | cying: I see. |
| 21:06.23 | cying | my only worry is the javascript support |
| 21:06.31 | piratepenguin | cying, how do webkit apps.. do something tho? does it have an equivilent to mozilla's xpcom (a COM)? |
| 21:06.39 | cying | but at 266mhz, it'll be lost in the noise until someone ports Core Animation to open source |
| 21:06.41 | wycats | webkit does JS very well |
| 21:06.57 | cying | wycats: i meant to say, js performance |
| 21:07.07 | wycats | cying: yeah... I hear ya |
| 21:07.14 | cying | wycats: if the iPhone processor == openmoko processor then i think you'll be okay |
| 21:07.40 | wycats | I honestly think that OpenMoko has the capability to compete with the iPhone amongst the geekier crows |
| 21:07.41 | cying | once Leopard ships, i can talk more about the Core Animation UI model |
| 21:07.43 | wycats | crowd |
| 21:07.45 | cying | it's very innovative |
| 21:07.51 | wycats | cying: but now? |
| 21:08.12 | blueandwhiteg3 | the cpu on the mopenmoko is a bit slower than current WM5 devices... and I think the iPhone has ~400 MHz CPU |
| 21:08.12 | paulproteus | The iPhone is offensive and locked-down. It's a non-option for us geeks, I'd say. |
| 21:08.14 | wycats | I don't agree |
| 21:08.22 | cying | my real worry is the 480 x 640 screen on the openmoko |
| 21:08.29 | wycats | geeks like things that work well and are nice to look at |
| 21:08.31 | wycats | like everyone else |
| 21:08.31 | cying | and the memory bandwidth isn't known |
| 21:08.40 | cying | i agree with wycats |
| 21:08.53 | Odin-LAP | iPhone doesn't "work well". |
| 21:09.08 | *** join/#openmoko terrex (n=terrex@84-122-63-17.onocable.ono.com) |
| 21:09.11 | wycats | cying: what's wrong with 480x640 |
| 21:09.11 | Odin-LAP | It's tied to a single U.S.-based service provider. ;) |
| 21:09.17 | cying | see, |
| 21:09.30 | paulproteus | Well, we'll see. I thought iPhone looked cool, but when they said it was locked down to only run Apple apps, I wanted to swear at them and attack Mr. Jobs for misleading me. |
| 21:09.39 | cying | wycats: the more pixels you have, the more memory you have to address when doing things like basic graphics fills |
| 21:09.46 | wycats | yeah... I hear ya |
| 21:09.55 | wycats | on the other hand, you can do more with it |
| 21:10.07 | wycats | 266MhZ might just be too slow |
| 21:10.18 | cying | wycats: and phone hardware traditionally has slow memory bandwidth... that's why a GBA >> an equivalent ARM7 phone |
| 21:10.20 | wycats | probably not tho |
| 21:10.30 | cying | nah |
| 21:10.44 | piratepenguin | cying, I always thought of core animation as "something like cairo/glitz", how accurate was my guess? :) |
| 21:10.47 | wycats | what's the memory bandwidth on the OpenMoko? |
| 21:10.49 | cying | if webkit ends up being too slow, i'm sure someone (maybe me) will come up with a little lightweight UI framework for writting phone apps |
| 21:11.06 | cying | piratepenguin: far off actually... Quartz is like cairo / glitz |
| 21:11.20 | piratepenguin | I just dont get CA at all |
| 21:11.22 | cying | piratepenguin: Core Animation is something that makes writing iPhone style UI a cakewalk |
| 21:11.25 | wycats | cying: the thing is that allowing JS/CSS means you get tons of good web developers to write stuff |
| 21:11.38 | blueandwhiteg3 | I personally feel the iPhone is not an option because of the lack of 3G and lack of any kind of handwriting recognition.... being closed is also pretty killer, but it's not my #1 reaction |
| 21:11.52 | wycats | handwriting recognition is bullshit |
| 21:11.55 | wycats | I've ever used it |
| 21:11.57 | wycats | *never |
| 21:11.57 | cying | wycats: i agree... but you need the apps to be fast... so hopefully the memory bandwidth will be sufficient |
| 21:12.01 | wycats | agreed |
| 21:12.10 | wycats | It might be possible to build a stripped-down webkit |
| 21:12.23 | piratepenguin | cying, interesting |
| 21:12.24 | blueandwhiteg3 | I've used handwriting recognition and I like 'block lettering' style input... may not do it for everybody, but it does it for me |
| 21:12.27 | cying | wycats: and so if the need arises, someone will build a phone app UI framework ala Core Animation |
| 21:12.46 | cying | wycats: which simply means: light and pretty UI framework |
| 21:12.51 | wycats | :) |
| 21:13.13 | wycats | it's funny, because these days I work with Ruby/JS... never really got into Objective-C and Cocoa |
| 21:13.14 | cying | but to me, the iPhone hardware is still a lot better... that nvidia GPU in the iPhone will make the difference |
| 21:13.27 | wycats | we can work around hardware difficulties |
| 21:13.36 | *** join/#openmoko lkcl (n=lkcl@5ac5f3e8.bb.sky.com) |
| 21:13.45 | cying | wycats: what i really mean is to port the philosophy and API paradigm from Core Animation, not the actual bits |
| 21:13.55 | wycats | obviously |
| 21:14.05 | cying | it doesn't have to be objc either |
| 21:14.09 | wycats | since I don't know what that is, I don't know how useful that would be ;) |
| 21:14.29 | blueandwhiteg3 | Why is the wiki requesting HTTP authentication to view it? |
| 21:14.31 | *** join/#openmoko sabor (n=mf@fehu.rola.ch) |
| 21:15.28 | koen | blueandwhiteg3: because it's not live yet |
| 21:15.33 | blueandwhiteg3 | hmm ok |
| 21:15.36 | cying | anyway |
| 21:15.44 | cying | i hope to see this hardware soon |
| 21:15.53 | *** join/#openmoko guerby (n=guerby@gut75-4-82-235-162-148.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 21:15.58 | cying | my personal project is a very lightweight UI framework |
| 21:16.03 | cying | not to port webkit per se |
| 21:16.21 | wycats | "very lightweight" |
| 21:16.23 | wycats | a la? |
| 21:16.28 | wycats | Core Animation? |
| 21:16.50 | blueandwhiteg3 | Are there plans for a openmoko 2? Right now the phone radio specs (GPRS, bluetooth) I am seeing are a bit like a GSM phone from 8 years ago |
| 21:16.50 | cying | in the style of |
| 21:16.50 | cying | but easier and higher level |
| 21:16.51 | wycats | high-level == good |
| 21:17.00 | wycats | it's actually pretty sane to take something from the DOM/JS model of development |
| 21:17.07 | cying | ick |
| 21:17.08 | cying | maybe JS |
| 21:17.08 | wycats | somehow, that has ended up being pretty easy |
| 21:17.14 | blueandwhiteg3 | I really like the screen and the openness, but there's no 3G, not even any EDGE. |
| 21:17.14 | cying | but W3C DOM is very very obtuse |
| 21:17.24 | wycats | I don't mean W3C DOM ;) |
| 21:17.25 | aloril | blueandwhiteg3: annoucment said v2 hardware at 2007-09-11 |
| 21:17.39 | cying | ;) |
| 21:17.47 | *** join/#openmoko johnny67 (n=johnny67@S0106000475d5b7c2.vn.shawcable.net) |
| 21:17.52 | cying | konfabulator had a pretty nice one |
| 21:17.59 | wycats | a nice DOM? |
| 21:18.05 | cying | but i'm focused on just getting pretty UI done |
| 21:18.10 | cying | yea |
| 21:18.13 | cying | DOM ish API |
| 21:18.14 | blueandwhiteg3 | Hmm... I am personally looking at this phone: http://www.htc.com/product/03-product_p3600.htm - it is perhaps a bit similar, but features full 3G support and even wifi. |
| 21:19.06 | blueandwhiteg3 | There's no way I'm spending hundreds of dollars on a 'nice' phone without 3G, and especially without EDGE. I'm afraid weak radio specs may cripple OpenMoko in rev 1. |
| 21:19.34 | cying | i might develop the framework on a soft emulator |
| 21:20.00 | cying | i just like having a open linux based phone instead of my WM5 HTC phone |
| 21:20.20 | WillySilly | Same here |
| 21:20.22 | alp | i don't know, for the last few years i've had 3G phones i've been disabling any 3G-ish features to avoid working up a massive bill. there are _two_ video cameras in my current phone and i don't ever remember using either of them |
| 21:20.37 | cying | since grokking raw frame buffer / gtk / gcc is easier than grokking DirectDraw, GAPI, GDI+, and all the windows apis. |
| 21:20.48 | WillySilly | I'd like to help with the UI design |
| 21:20.57 | wycats | I don't particularly enjoy gtk myself |
| 21:20.58 | cying | that's why i was surprised to see no wifi |
| 21:21.07 | wycats | It has to be really really easy |
| 21:21.18 | alp | there is plenty of interesting work to be done with core phone functionality |
| 21:21.22 | cying | wycats: well gtk just enough to get at the frame buffer |
| 21:21.25 | blueandwhiteg3 | I don't know about you guys, but I have unlimited data for USD $18/mo + 1500 sms + 200 mms... and it is just longing for a 3G phone with a VGA screen |
| 21:21.36 | wycats | I hear that blueandwhiteg3 |
| 21:21.46 | paulproteus | blueandwhiteg3, Wow, how do you get that? |
| 21:22.05 | wycats | paulproteus: you can get slightly more expensive deals anywhere in the US if you look for them |
| 21:22.05 | *** join/#openmoko cpn (n=root@71-222-211-140.albq.qwest.net) |
| 21:22.08 | *** join/#openmoko Sencer (i=Sencer@gateway/tor/session) |
| 21:22.09 | blueandwhiteg3 | paulproteus: sign up at the right time with cingular and away you go :) |
| 21:22.16 | paulproteus | Golly, gee whiz. |
| 21:22.31 | paulproteus | That almost makes me not need wifi.... |
| 21:22.35 | blueandwhiteg3 | cingular offers $20/mo unlimited data for phones |
| 21:22.37 | Whiz | was? |
| 21:22.38 | Whiz | :) |
| 21:22.49 | paulproteus | blueandwhiteg3, Does that include voice service in those $20? |
| 21:23.01 | blueandwhiteg3 | No. |
| 21:23.08 | paulproteus | Ah, okay. |
| 21:23.13 | paulproteus | Then it's plausible. (-: |
| 21:23.24 | wycats | yep |
| 21:23.46 | blueandwhiteg3 | it's just that there's no really good way to get data into this phone... no wifi, no 3G, not even EDGE... yet it will have a lovely screen |
| 21:24.16 | blueandwhiteg3 | and it sounds like it'll run killer applications |
| 21:24.23 | wycats | without data |
| 21:24.25 | wycats | ;) |
| 21:24.42 | blueandwhiteg3 | yeah... the killer apps will be not so killer :) |
| 21:24.49 | wycats | lol |
| 21:24.57 | koen | blueandwhiteg3: bluetooth + usb |
| 21:24.58 | cying | hmmm |
| 21:25.02 | cying | my priv msgs aren't working |
| 21:25.40 | blueandwhiteg3 | bluetooth doesn't really compare to wifi.... so you have to basically sit next to your computer to use the phone, with bluetooth or usb |
| 21:25.52 | blueandwhiteg3 | and why use the phone if you are right next to your computer? |
| 21:25.57 | cying | are there any micro SD card wifi radios? |
| 21:26.08 | blueandwhiteg3 | except to place calls.... for which you do not need a VGA screen |
| 21:26.16 | leventhal | bluetooth to wifi bridge i'm thinking |
| 21:26.17 | jjazz | cying: Yes, but none that will fit in the slot on the Neo. |
| 21:26.23 | WillySilly | Maybe I can use my 770 as a wifi gateway |
| 21:26.23 | cying | dohhhhhhh |
| 21:26.25 | leventhal | and there are plans to use a usb wifi dongle |
| 21:26.43 | cying | maybe i should develop on the N880 first |
| 21:27.02 | blueandwhiteg3 | great, so i have to carry around all this extra crap.... and I thought I was done with that, as tons of pda phones are including wifi |
| 21:27.17 | aloril | cying: have you applied for free phone? http://www.openmoko.com/ (I'm just lurker, so don't know more than what announcement said and what that page says) |
| 21:27.23 | jjazz | blueandwhiteg3: Dude, we get it, you want wifi. |
| 21:27.31 | aloril | cying: micro sd card is under battery |
| 21:27.41 | cying | aloril: oh, didn't see that, thanks for the link |
| 21:27.49 | blueandwhiteg3 | hahahaha i doubt wifi will fit |
| 21:27.59 | Sencer | gawd, the attack of the noobs. I think I'll take a break from the channel and the list for a week or two... OMG WIFI!!111! |
| 21:28.04 | *** part/#openmoko Sencer (i=Sencer@gateway/tor/session) |
| 21:28.38 | cying | aloril: oops, yep, i applied back in january 2006 |
| 21:28.46 | blueandwhiteg3 | They say that they are still shaping the specs for the openmoko 2, how will that be happening? |
| 21:28.55 | cying | aloril: 2007 |
| 21:29.11 | cying | wycats: i got your priv msg, but not sure if i can reply |
| 21:29.17 | leventhal | blueandwhiteg3: there is already one microSD wifi card that I know of |
| 21:29.42 | ozamosi | aloril: what was the URL to that freenode stats page? |
| 21:29.51 | wycats | Sencer: We're noobs, but we're not idiots |
| 21:30.00 | wycats | cying: why not? |
| 21:30.26 | cying | wycats: not sure... did you get my priv msgs? |
| 21:30.46 | wycats | nope |
| 21:30.50 | cying | doh |
| 21:30.58 | wycats | I hate this "noob-phobia" |
| 21:30.59 | wycats | ugh |
| 21:31.03 | aloril | http://irc.netsplit.de/channels/?net=freenode&query=&num=40 (buts its not yet updated with latest influx) |
| 21:31.17 | ozamosi | wycats: if you read the mail list, you'll see that half of the posts are "I want WiFi!" "We can't do WiFi now" "But I want WiFi now!" repeated over and over again |
| 21:31.26 | wycats | ozamosi: I get it |
| 21:31.30 | wycats | that's no reason to use a slur |
| 21:31.36 | aloril | anyway, 196 is record and we have passed #maemo now (in addition to passing ##windows) |
| 21:31.39 | wycats | you got slashdotted |
| 21:31.41 | wycats | yaknow |
| 21:31.42 | ozamosi | No, sure. |
| 21:31.43 | wycats | that's a good thing |
| 21:31.56 | wycats | it brings in new people, but you're going to have to get them up to date |
| 21:32.00 | wycats | unless you never want new ppl again |
| 21:32.03 | ozamosi | I'm just explaining the motives, not defending his actions. |
| 21:32.06 | wycats | :) |
| 21:32.17 | aloril | previous record is from yesterday: 185 2007-01-19 23:23:41 |
| 21:32.24 | cying | but i do commend the openmoko team for making this huge bet |
| 21:32.26 | koen | but then again, slashdotters never read the article |
| 21:32.33 | wycats | lol |
| 21:32.35 | cying | and i hope to see a openmoko 2 with wimax / wifi |
| 21:32.42 | cying | i mean wifi / 3g |
| 21:32.56 | blueandwhiteg3 | leventhal: but the microsd wifi card does not fit entirely in the microsd form factor, and since the microsd card goes behind the battery... we have a problem. |
| 21:33.22 | wycats | FAQ: Can we have Wifi? Answer: No. |
| 21:33.23 | wycats | ;) |
| 21:33.29 | leventhal | You're sure? It looks like it does |
| 21:33.49 | aloril | reason for no wifi is that there was no suitable chip that would allow GPL kernel modules |
| 21:34.01 | aloril | (that is impression I have gotten from mailing list) |
| 21:34.10 | wycats | ozamosi: is that true? |
| 21:34.19 | *** join/#openmoko terrex (n=terrex@84-122-63-17.onocable.ono.com) |
| 21:34.28 | blueandwhiteg3 | well, some chipsets have been reverse engineered if i recall.... |
| 21:34.35 | cying | wycats: anything? |
| 21:34.41 | wycats | cying: nope |
| 21:34.46 | blueandwhiteg3 | leventhal: I'm pretty sure it is not an entire radio in a micorsd form factor... and even if it was, how good would the reception be with such a tiny antenna *behind* the battery? |
| 21:34.47 | cying | it's either colloquy or freenode that's screwing me over |
| 21:34.57 | leventhal | pretty bad reception yeah |
| 21:34.58 | wycats | cying: are you on AIM? |
| 21:34.59 | ozamosi | wycats: what is true? |
| 21:35.04 | cying | ah |
| 21:35.07 | LoRez | cying: you cannot send privmsgs if you're not identified |
| 21:35.11 | cying | ah! |
| 21:35.15 | cying | yes i am |
| 21:35.18 | cying | i'll go do that now... |
| 21:35.18 | leventhal | so i am hoping that the second gen phone has wifi, but it's not enough to put me off from first gen |
| 21:35.20 | LoRez | been that way for a long time. |
| 21:35.22 | wycats | IM outlookeic |
| 21:35.30 | wycats | ozamosi: that the reason for no Wifi is GPL |
| 21:35.40 | cying | wycats: i'll try id'ing first |
| 21:35.44 | wycats | :) |
| 21:35.52 | ozamosi | wycats: apparently |
| 21:36.02 | cying | er... how does one identify one's self? |
| 21:36.07 | wycats | is that something that can be resolved eventually |
| 21:36.43 | LoRez | cying: /msg nickserv help register |
| 21:36.44 | *** join/#openmoko DrStrangelove (n=adjfajds@p5486D8C8.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 21:37.02 | aloril | blueandwhiteg3: it needs to be embedded not use much energy, I heard that there might be some recent candidates, dunno, but I guess this will be resolved before v2 hardware ;-) |
| 21:37.44 | wycats | it's hard to write kick-ass apps if the apps can never get recent data ;) |
| 21:37.48 | wycats | I mean... I can build a calculator |
| 21:37.52 | wycats | clock |
| 21:37.53 | wycats | lol |
| 21:38.10 | ozamosi | wycats: probably. Either some FLOSS friendly company releases a low power chip, or a low power chip gets good reverese enginered drivers |
| 21:38.11 | blueandwhiteg3 | aloril: yeah, i was guessing that was the issue... but frankly, i don't care so much about wifi as 3G.... 1 mbit internet *everywhere* is way more attractive than even my 10 mbit connection but only when I'm at home |
| 21:38.29 | cying | brb |
| 21:38.35 | wycats | 3g is actually faster than 1mbit |
| 21:38.48 | aloril | blueandwhiteg3: another reason is that they wanted to keep price down |
| 21:38.53 | blueandwhiteg3 | wycats: Yes, but I am talking real world performance on 3G versus my home connection |
| 21:38.59 | *** join/#openmoko cying (n=cying@adsl-75-18-216-208.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) |
| 21:39.01 | wycats | I hear ya |
| 21:39.06 | wycats | the price is already pretty high |
| 21:39.27 | wycats | I mean... I can get an iPhone for $500, and that includes an iPod... :P |
| 21:39.30 | blueandwhiteg3 | aloril: yeah, i can understand the need to keep cost down, it's just that the people who will want this are kind of on the 'high end' of things anyhow.... and man, that VGA screen is incredible |
| 21:39.41 | wycats | (and yes. I do believe that the iPhone is your main competition) |
| 21:39.44 | blueandwhiteg3 | wycats: the iPhone is WITH a 2 year contract |
| 21:39.45 | aloril | wycats: depends, nokia communicators are 2x in price |
| 21:39.57 | blueandwhiteg3 | wycats: without contract, add at least $200 |
| 21:40.00 | wycats | blueandwhiteg3: most people get their phones with contract |
| 21:40.02 | *** join/#openmoko cying (n=cying@adsl-75-18-216-208.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) |
| 21:40.30 | xorAxAx | wycats: the iphone is not open at all, you didnt get it |
| 21:40.37 | wycats | xorAxAx: I do |
| 21:40.39 | blueandwhiteg3 | wycats: The OpenMoko won't be sold with contract I'm guessing. And I don't buy my phones with contract. And outside the US, contracts are not quite as dead set.... |
| 21:40.40 | wycats | Believe me I do |
| 21:41.08 | xorAxAx | blueandwhiteg3: it will be, see the schedule |
| 21:41.12 | blueandwhiteg3 | Speaking of cost.... look at the iPhone's cost: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070118-8649.html |
| 21:41.26 | blueandwhiteg3 | 50% gross margins they say |
| 21:41.28 | xorAxAx | wycats: most consumers wont get it, yes, and buy the iphone :) |
| 21:41.35 | xorAxAx | even though its more expensive |
| 21:41.51 | wycats | the question is simply whether consumers need the openness |
| 21:41.59 | blueandwhiteg3 | xorAxAx: What will be? |
| 21:41.59 | wycats | or whether they'll be happy with the bundled software |
| 21:42.03 | aloril | blueandwhiteg3: who knows, maybe you can get Neo1973 with contract too at Q4 ;-) |
| 21:42.14 | xorAxAx | blueandwhiteg3: it will be sold with contracts |
| 21:42.23 | cying | btw, here's my opinion on iphone apps: |
| 21:42.23 | cying | http://www.satine.org/archives/2007/01/11/how-to-write-an-iphone-app/ |
| 21:42.32 | cying | it's probably quite unpopular with this crowd though ;) |
| 21:42.46 | blueandwhiteg3 | Have *any* of you guys seen Cingular's QA and branding requirements? |
| 21:43.14 | ozamosi | wycats: I think the point is that if enough geeks do really cool stuff, the neo (or the phone(s) that follows it) might be more interesting to consumer |
| 21:43.16 | xorAxAx | cying: not open at all, yep |
| 21:43.17 | ozamosi | s |
| 21:43.26 | wycats | ozamosi: absolutely |
| 21:43.36 | wycats | you're still competing with them ;) |
| 21:43.52 | ozamosi | in the end, yes. But that's not the important market NOW. |
| 21:43.54 | blueandwhiteg3 | I have a hard time imagining the OpenMoko being 'open' after Cingular is done. |
| 21:43.59 | *** join/#openmoko amarsh04 (n=amarsh04@CPE-138-217-213-250.sa.bigpond.net.au) |
| 21:44.52 | blueandwhiteg3 | Cingular was the driving force behind the iPhone being closed. Cingular forced apple to lock and brand the iPhone. Cingular told *Apple* what to do. I shudder to think what they would do to the OpenMoko. We'd just have the plain old 'Moko' with DRM-laden firmware and carrier-locked phone.... |
| 21:45.14 | ozamosi | blueandwhiteg3: in sweden, phones mostly do not get branded at all - you just choose which operator your phone would be locked to. US isn't the world :) |
| 21:45.30 | ozamosi | And I doubt cingular is the US. |
| 21:45.31 | blueandwhiteg3 | ozamosi: I know! I think I should move. |
| 21:45.45 | blueandwhiteg3 | ozamosi: There is only one other nationwide GSM carrier - T-Mobile. |
| 21:45.58 | blueandwhiteg3 | They also brand their phones up pretty well, though they're not as bad as Cingular. |
| 21:46.04 | wycats | Are you required to comply with them in order to use their network |
| 21:46.22 | wycats | or just to get contracts |
| 21:46.24 | blueandwhiteg3 | wycats: No, but if you want to sell it with a contract or through the Cingular store or anything, yes. |
| 21:46.36 | wycats | hmmm |
| 21:46.44 | wycats | it's interesting |
| 21:47.06 | ozamosi | Oh well... US is always 6-12 months behind Europe, and Europe is 6-12 months behind Asia. So maybe things will work out for americans in 2 years? |
| 21:47.09 | blueandwhiteg3 | That's why I just pick the phone I want, stick my SIM into there, and away I go. No contract with Cingular (ever - this surprises most Americans) and I just bring my own unlocked, unbranded phone. |
| 21:47.54 | *** join/#openmoko orospakr (n=orospakr@bas5-ottawa23-1088845441.dsl.bell.ca) |
| 21:48.06 | blueandwhiteg3 | ozamosi: People say that, but I'm not 100% sure how true it is. It's more like the 'good' phones show up over there, but the US carriers need time to cripple them. But if you use GSM, you just go buy the phone you want, bring it into the US, and be done with it. |
| 21:48.17 | ozamosi | lol |
| 21:48.44 | cying | well, |
| 21:48.52 | blueandwhiteg3 | That's what I think I'm going to do with the HTC P3600. penta-band 2G/3G, bluetooth 2, miniSD, GPS, 802.11g, etc. |
| 21:49.01 | cying | about 4 years ago, i took a trip to tokyo |
| 21:49.24 | *** join/#openmoko pikkewyn (i=xiaowen@sverige.freeshell.ORG) |
| 21:49.34 | cying | i spent a few days going around akihabara looking for a great portable audio player |
| 21:49.40 | blueandwhiteg3 | It used to be a big issue to import stuff, but with everybody going the way of 3G, it gets easier everyday. |
| 21:50.02 | cying | and found lots of advanced MD and flash memory players with horrid interfaces |
| 21:50.22 | cying | US was pretty backwards in comparison |
| 21:50.23 | blueandwhiteg3 | welcome to japan :) |
| 21:50.32 | cying | then i came back, and the ipod was launched. |
| 21:50.48 | blueandwhiteg3 | They seem to be into 'high tech' at any cost, including usability |
| 21:51.13 | cying | so when people say that europe or asia are "more advanced" than US, i always think back to the ipod example |
| 21:51.23 | jjazz | blueandwhiteg3: Unforunately, unlocked doesn't always mean it will work. I have an unlocked treo that won't handle incoming caller id, for example. |
| 21:51.40 | blueandwhiteg3 | jjazz: What?? |
| 21:52.19 | jjazz | blueandwhiteg3: I have an unlocked cingular treo. When I put a t-mobile sim in it, it works just fine except for caller id. |
| 21:52.32 | blueandwhiteg3 | and it's branded 'Cingular' when you turn it on/off, right? |
| 21:52.38 | jjazz | yes |
| 21:52.46 | cying | the key is provisioning parameters |
| 21:52.49 | wycats | caller id is kinda important |
| 21:52.51 | xorAxAx | cying: yeah, europe doesnt have a religion comparable to apple |
| 21:52.55 | blueandwhiteg3 | Well, dude, just install the 'unbranded' firmware and you'll be fine. |
| 21:53.06 | cying | if a phone has provisioning presets for all the carriers, this usually is as simple as selecting the carrier |
| 21:53.07 | xorAxAx | cying: the US is better at building such religions |
| 21:53.15 | *** join/#openmoko birula (n=birula@201.78.36.34) |
| 21:53.25 | wycats | eh. |
| 21:53.25 | *** part/#openmoko gnumark (n=newm@adsl-ull-59-220.41-151.net24.it) |
| 21:53.28 | cying | xorAxAx: is the ipod popular in europe? |
| 21:53.28 | wycats | Apple does good work |
| 21:53.34 | PirateHead | ##windows is a funny channel |
| 21:53.37 | PirateHead | I had never tried it before. |
| 21:53.43 | jjazz | blueandwhiteg3: I just acquired the thing a couple days ago. Removing the branding seems to require some hoop-jumping. |
| 21:53.43 | xorAxAx | cying: not less popular than in the us i would say |
| 21:53.58 | blueandwhiteg3 | Cingular did screwy things... I told you Cingular slaughters phones. I have a Treo (cingular branded) and after installing the unbranded firmware, it works *perfect* |
| 21:54.02 | cying | not- less- popular... meaning it's just as popular? |
| 21:54.26 | xorAxAx | wycats: ah, a believing customer |
| 21:54.39 | wycats | xorAxAx: Apple doesn't do good work? |
| 21:54.47 | blueandwhiteg3 | jjazz: It's not a big deal, just stick the firmware on a SD card, hit 'ok, upgrade firmware' after it is loaded, then wait about 2 minutes... your phone is now stripped of Cingular's screwiness. |
| 21:54.55 | xorAxAx | wycats: i never said that, many qualities of their products are superb |
| 21:55.07 | xorAxAx | wycats: others are not |
| 21:55.09 | jjazz | blueandwhiteg3: Ah, the websites I've been looking at make it seem like there's magic involved. |
| 21:55.11 | wycats | sure |
| 21:55.17 | xorAxAx | e.g. powerbooks are very unreliable compared to ThinkPads |
| 21:55.17 | wycats | all I said was that apple does good work |
| 21:55.34 | xorAxAx | (T-series) |
| 21:55.37 | blueandwhiteg3 | jjazz: there is no such magic involved. just stick the firmware on an SD card and away you go. I have done it on my phone many times and many clients phones too. |
| 21:55.43 | wycats | xorAxAx: I have not had any trouble with my new MacBook |
| 21:55.56 | xorAxAx | and the apple protection is way too expensive for a company that thinks that it does good products :) |
| 21:56.00 | blueandwhiteg3 | But this is exactly why we need an open phone.... no more carriers screwing customers by crippling expensive phones. |
| 21:56.04 | xorAxAx | 4 times the price of IBM or somehting like that |
| 21:56.05 | orospakr | whoa, OpenMoko looks really awesome. I have to ask though, at the risk of sounding pedantic, if any of the software that will ship on it will be proprietary. :) |
| 21:56.30 | keny | yeah xorAxAx , sadly, ThinkPads RIP |
| 21:56.33 | cying | but- but- web browser! |
| 21:56.37 | jjazz | blueandwhiteg3: I want the "unlocked gsm" firmware from palm.com? |
| 21:56.41 | cying | and the web browser's core engine is open source |
| 21:56.45 | koen | orospakr: only the gps daemon is closed-source |
| 21:56.54 | xorAxAx | keny: yeah |
| 21:56.55 | cying | web apps != native apps? |
| 21:56.58 | orospakr | koen: I expected as much. not that big a deal. :) |
| 21:57.08 | orospakr | who knows, it might get, *cough*, replaced. :D |
| 21:57.14 | blueandwhiteg3 | that's the idea... though i'm not sure if the firmware they distribute will move you from cingular branding to unlocked, iirc you need a different file |
| 21:57.25 | jjazz | ok. Thanks |
| 21:57.40 | *** join/#openmoko ajturner (n=ajturner@d14-69-64-67.try.wideopenwest.com) |
| 21:57.47 | orospakr | btw, how many GSM bands does the 1973 support? |
| 21:58.01 | cying | 4 |
| 21:58.06 | cying | bless them :) |
| 21:58.10 | orospakr | awesome. |
| 21:58.23 | blueandwhiteg3 | now just add 3G at 850, 1900 and 2100U and we'll be all set! |
| 21:58.35 | blueandwhiteg3 | I'll take one, even at $600+ |
| 21:58.55 | orospakr | eh, 2G GSM is pretty fast, isn't it? how many kilobits, generally? |
| 21:58.58 | *** join/#openmoko chrustinho (n=christop@p57B04188.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 21:59.26 | blueandwhiteg3 | Without EDGE?? Think dialup (~50-60 kbps) with even more latency (~800-1000 ms) |
| 21:59.38 | orospakr | bleh. |
| 21:59.43 | orospakr | oh well, no biggy. |
| 21:59.49 | orospakr | still awesome. |
| 21:59.54 | orospakr | more than good enough for IM and stuff. |
| 22:00.02 | blueandwhiteg3 | orospakr: try browsing the web with that... it is *so* painfully slow |
| 22:00.21 | blueandwhiteg3 | it's just that carriers offer faster data at no extra charge, provided your phone supports it |
| 22:00.26 | cying | so if any openmoko guys are here |
| 22:00.27 | orospakr | blueandwhiteg3: geeze, do you want me to buy a 1973 or not? ;) |
| 22:00.35 | cying | i would like to request a graphics chipset on the open moko 2 |
| 22:00.59 | cying | you don't want the CPU wasting its battery on software rasterization |
| 22:01.05 | blueandwhiteg3 | orospakr: I want you to know the facts then decide for yourself |
| 22:01.14 | orospakr | fair enough. :) |
| 22:02.47 | aloril | haven't yet googled for proxy that would be suitable for this, but I remember there being commercial ones some years ago: |
| 22:03.09 | aloril | compress pages, recompress images, etc.. -> faster browsing over slow bandwidth |
| 22:03.26 | aloril | no doubt that will happen if not already done |
| 22:03.35 | blueandwhiteg3 | right, that improves things a bit - some carriers offer APNs specially for compressed data |
| 22:03.37 | blueandwhiteg3 | such as Cingular |
| 22:03.40 | cying | exactly |
| 22:03.47 | cying | i was just going to say that |
| 22:03.53 | cying | but you have to be provisioned correctly for it |
| 22:03.56 | blueandwhiteg3 | correct |
| 22:04.10 | blueandwhiteg3 | you need to be able to access ispda.cingular instead of wap.cingular or isp.cingular |
| 22:04.11 | cying | i hope openmoko will come with provisioning software |
| 22:04.18 | *** part/#openmoko olegfink (n=olegfink@pppoe-17.10.110.89-adsl.spbnit.ru) |
| 22:04.22 | *** join/#openmoko unlink (n=unlink@c-66-31-174-112.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 22:04.28 | cying | or presets or whatever the equivalent on openmoko linux is |
| 22:04.39 | blueandwhiteg3 | cying: the provisioning happens on the carrier's end... some plans allow ispda, others do not |
| 22:04.53 | blueandwhiteg3 | frankly, i don't think it makes much of a difference because the killer is latency more than throughput |
| 22:05.22 | cying | hm |
| 22:05.28 | cying | i always thought phones came with the presets |
| 22:05.46 | orospakr | I gather the phone will have a dbus API for a lot of the telephony functionality? |
| 22:05.54 | orospakr | GPS too, for that matter? |
| 22:06.09 | netx | any idea what GPRS multislot class the Neo will be? |
| 22:06.13 | blueandwhiteg3 | cying: unbranded phones do not come with settings for 'most carriers' in most cases... but it is very easy to plug in the data yourself |
| 22:06.41 | netx | hopefully at least class 8 or 10 |
| 22:06.43 | netx | but it didn't say on any press releases i have seen |
| 22:06.45 | blueandwhiteg3 | netx: in the US, all carriers limit to 4 timeslots on GPRS, sometimes less if the network is busy |
| 22:06.49 | cying | blueandwhiteg3: still, i'd like to see the data presets in the phone... my nokia 7610 came with all the data ports pre programmed, very useful. |
| 22:07.02 | netx | blueandwhiteg3: thanks |
| 22:07.27 | netx | is that 4 active, or 4 down + 1 up? |
| 22:07.28 | cying | i suppose it's not worth winging about no wifi or EDGE since the phone has already gone to manufacturing |
| 22:07.29 | blueandwhiteg3 | re: provisioning, well, i guess very easy depends on who you are, but from my perspective it is trivial. Still, it would be equally trivial to ship a small app that pre-configures for all major GSM carriers in the US (all two of them) |
| 22:07.54 | koen | OMG WIFI!!!! |
| 22:07.56 | blueandwhiteg3 | netx: 4 down + 1 up, or 3 down + 2 up, if your radio supports |
| 22:08.04 | netx | cool |
| 22:08.32 | blueandwhiteg3 | that's the best you'll get in the US |
| 22:08.41 | netx | i personally don't care too much about 3G, as this will be my first phone period |
| 22:08.46 | blueandwhiteg3 | and frequently, the network throttles you to less than that... |
| 22:09.21 | netx | i'll take something better whenever the openmoko guys are able to get it |
| 22:09.32 | blueandwhiteg3 | netx: You will after you discover you could have nearly DSL-like internet everywhere you go and that lovely VGA screen is running a nice web browser and all these others apps that are just screaming out for connectivity |
| 22:09.47 | blueandwhiteg3 | with 3G you could install a VoIP app and never use 'minutes' again |
| 22:10.31 | blueandwhiteg3 | Hopefully rev 1 will get enough interest and great 'internet' apps so that rev 2 really gets a good polishing |
| 22:10.51 | netx | well, for me the ability to hack on the device is more important than the whiz-bang web features for now |
| 22:11.15 | blueandwhiteg3 | netx: where do you live that this is your first phone? are you pretty young? |
| 22:11.23 | netx | like i said, when they are able to get a more powerful phone for subsequent versions, i'll be happy to invest in another one |
| 22:11.55 | netx | no, i am 26, live in the US, and have made the conscious decision to not get a phone before now |
| 22:12.20 | netx | which has certainly annoyed a lot of other people, but i haven't really regretted it |
| 22:12.29 | netx | ;-) |
| 22:12.46 | blueandwhiteg3 | netx: hmm, you are certainly atypical. |
| 22:13.04 | jjazz | blueandwhiteg3: I've only had a few phones. The new treo is my fourth. I was an early adopter, but I keep my phones for years. |
| 22:13.09 | netx | that's more ... polite than most people put it |
| 22:13.40 | blueandwhiteg3 | netx: I know other people who are in your same boat. I may have a lot to say, but I can respect that people have differing decisions and priorities. |
| 22:13.45 | jjazz | I have a friend who still uses a startac |
| 22:14.11 | blueandwhiteg3 | Now, if you were an important employee of mine or I was trying to do an important project with you netx, I might have more of a beef :) |
| 22:14.58 | yacc | blueandwhiteg3: nearly-DSL internet is not that cool, with the prices one has to pay in most places per KB ;) |
| 22:15.05 | netx | heh -- yeah, i had one boss who was initially annoyed about it -- eventually he realized that with my quality of work, he didn't need to call me at any odd time |
| 22:15.47 | netx | but for most of my jobs, the employer hardly ever noticed |
| 22:15.49 | blueandwhiteg3 | yacc: yeah, well... there are 300 million people in the US who can get on decent 'unlimited' plans. |
| 22:15.54 | *** join/#openmoko vdepizzol (n=vinicius@200.242.12.134) |
| 22:16.02 | vdepizzol | will openmoko use gtk+? |
| 22:16.18 | yacc | blueandwhiteg3: but only at gprs speeds? *g* |
| 22:16.29 | koen | vdepizzol: yes, see urls in topic |
| 22:16.55 | yacc | blueandwhiteg3: I've got a decent UMTS plan, but that doesn't change the fact that it's rather an exception, globally speaking than the rule. |
| 22:17.02 | blueandwhiteg3 | yacc: well, cingular does not charge extra for 3G.... you just need a phone that supports it. |
| 22:17.12 | *** join/#openmoko tomjoad4400 (n=tomjoad4@adsl-70-130-201-119.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net) |
| 22:17.36 | vdepizzol | koen: nice. Thank's |
| 22:19.04 | *** join/#openmoko franck (n=franck@tikiwiki/franck) |
| 22:19.38 | blueandwhiteg3 | yacc: perhaps the plans will improve... still, even if you limit your usage, why not have a low-latency connection for the times that you do use it? |
| 22:21.43 | blueandwhiteg3 | Does 'E28' ring a bell with anybody? |
| 22:21.49 | orospakr | is Python included on the phone? |
| 22:22.13 | blueandwhiteg3 | It appears they have been demoing linux-based 3G/wifi phone: http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS4367004471.html |
| 22:22.15 | jjazz | orospakr: ya |
| 22:22.20 | orospakr | jjazz: sweet. |
| 22:22.31 | koen | not include, but 'available' |
| 22:22.32 | jjazz | orospakr: Although, somebody mentioned a lack of python-gtk bindings. |
| 22:22.37 | orospakr | it seems that OLPC and OpenMoko have quite a bit in common. which is awesome. |
| 22:22.39 | orospakr | ... ouch. |
| 22:22.56 | koen | jjazz: stop spreading nonsense please |
| 22:23.00 | jjazz | orospakr: I don't know if they were correct, or what the deal is |
| 22:23.03 | orospakr | *phew* |
| 22:23.28 | jjazz | koen: It's not nonsense. Somebody mentioned it this afternoon. |
| 22:23.51 | koen | right, stop repeating somebody else's nonsense |
| 22:24.35 | xorAxAx | yes, openmoko will only use MFC and fox |
| 22:24.46 | xorAxAx | those are the best gui frameworks around currently |
| 22:24.51 | xorAxAx | :-) |
| 22:26.31 | orospakr | xorAxAx: haha. :D |
| 22:26.42 | orospakr | yeah, I hear OLPC runs entirely in qbasic. |
| 22:27.19 | blueandwhiteg3 | I hope their line numbering scheme is robust enough :) |
| 22:27.31 | xorAxAx | qbasic doesnt depend on line numbers |
| 22:28.05 | blueandwhiteg3 | I'm being facetious :) |
| 22:30.51 | cying | :O |
| 22:30.51 | yacc | blueandwhiteg3: UMTS is not exactly low-latency. HSDPA is rumored to be low-latency. (E+ does not have it deployed yet :( ) |
| 22:31.18 | blueandwhiteg3 | yacc: I don't think i've ever used UMTS - Cingular went straight to HSDPA |
| 22:31.56 | yacc | blueandwhiteg3: you're happy then. Just out of curiosity, what kinds of ping times do you get with HSDPA? |
| 22:31.59 | blueandwhiteg3 | My tests show a good device that supports HSDPA at the '3.6 mbit' level can reliably sustain 1.5-1.7 mbit/sec and ping times of 100-150 ms |
| 22:32.11 | blueandwhiteg3 | to a site like, say, google or something |
| 22:32.30 | yacc | Well, 100-150ms is not low latency either, BUT way better then the 300-500ms UMTS has. |
| 22:32.36 | blueandwhiteg3 | still slower than my home (more like 30-40 ms to major sites) but tons faster than EDGE or (gag) GPRS |
| 22:32.54 | blueandwhiteg3 | yacc: that's lower latency than your voice calls with GSM voice |
| 22:33.51 | *** join/#openmoko pike_ (i=pike@server1.freeshells.ch) |
| 22:35.32 | yacc | blueandwhiteg3: yeah, it's low enough to make ssh over a vpn acceptable. OTOH, on my DSL I'm getting 34ms to google. |
| 22:36.02 | blueandwhiteg3 | yacc: yeah, it's still 3-4 times worse than ideal conditions on a home connection... |
| 22:36.25 | blueandwhiteg3 | yacc: but it is good enough that you don't really notice and can do *great* voip |
| 22:36.39 | blueandwhiteg3 | I even have some clients videoconferencing over 3G |
| 22:42.11 | *** join/#openmoko chingo (n=chingo@0x55511640.adsl.cybercity.dk) |
| 22:46.23 | blueandwhiteg3 | alright all, i will keep an eye on the openmoko project and see what happens, it will be interesting to see rev 2 |
| 22:46.46 | *** part/#openmoko blueandwhiteg3 (n=blueandw@c-67-168-9-80.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
| 22:48.43 | *** join/#openmoko martn_ (n=martn@xdsl-84-44-130-18.netcologne.de) |
| 22:48.46 | *** join/#openmoko Demitar (n=demitar@c-212-031-191-125.cust.broadway.se) |
| 22:51.35 | *** join/#openmoko Demitar_ (n=demitar@c-212-031-191-125.cust.broadway.se) |
| 23:02.29 | cbpage | *headslap* |
| 23:03.17 | Zer0Her0 | and people wonder why i stay away from mailing lists |
| 23:03.43 | hrw | OpenMoko OE/GNU/Linux ;D |
| 23:03.51 | CM | Hehe |
| 23:04.01 | CM | hrw: Nice job you got btw, congrats :) |
| 23:04.08 | hrw | CM: thx |
| 23:04.12 | koen | kergoth/schurig/mickeyl Linux |
| 23:04.21 | hrw | cu |
| 23:04.32 | *** join/#openmoko inivex (n=Eachan@71-82-121-69.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com) |
| 23:04.44 | noidd | hah |
| 23:04.53 | noidd | Yeah, python and perl Gtk bindings will be available |
| 23:05.24 | noidd | for those who prefer their syntax as whitenoise as opposed to syntax as whitespace :-) |
| 23:05.49 | *** join/#openmoko terrex (n=terrex@84-122-63-17.onocable.ono.com) |
| 23:06.08 | PirateHead | noidd: you're sure that the OpenMoko platform comes with Python bindings? |
| 23:06.17 | PirateHead | noidd: or are you just guessing? |
| 23:06.26 | ozamosi | Hm... Maybe I should start an extra movement, who believes that GNU/Linux as well as Linux are unethical names... Just to be a PITA, and also to make people see how pointless the discussion is. |
| 23:06.38 | koen | "be available" != " OpenMoko platform comes with Python bindings" |
| 23:07.29 | PirateHead | koen: so I have to roll my own python extension to build Python bindings |
| 23:07.50 | PirateHead | which is what I thought. I just wondered if noidd knew otherwise |
| 23:08.54 | franck | anybody from fic here? |
| 23:09.30 | franck | or from openmoko? |
| 23:09.48 | *** join/#openmoko Waobagger (n=waobagge@81-174-23-86.f5.ngi.it) |
| 23:10.04 | CM | koen: What branch should I check out from oe for trying Moko stuff? took org.oe.dev now |
| 23:17.49 | *** part/#openmoko Waobagger (n=waobagge@81-174-23-86.f5.ngi.it) |
| 23:18.16 | boorad | CM: did you get further? I'm wondering what machine is closest to OpenMoko in OE |
| 23:18.38 | CM | I'm playing with my own local.conf now |
| 23:18.52 | CM | Koen has said before what's the closest, but I can't remember |
| 23:19.19 | CM | I'm not sure I'll even get Xehpyr and Xoo working on amd64 |
| 23:19.23 | WillySilly | I'll start messing with some icons |
| 23:19.41 | boorad | CM: I'm still x86, so there's hope for me on that front |
| 23:21.23 | noidd | PirateHead: I'm saying that it is available |
| 23:21.38 | noidd | whether it is in the default build as it is flashed at the factory I do not know. |
| 23:21.41 | WillySilly | im thinking of doing the battery status first |
| 23:21.47 | noidd | its probably too niche I would have thought |
| 23:21.56 | noidd | but it will definately be in the package feeds |
| 23:22.17 | orospakr | Xephyr is a bit bugged on x86_64, afaik. |
| 23:22.19 | boorad | CM: does angstrom ring any bells? |
| 23:22.57 | CM | boorad: Yes, but I haven't used that one either. That's mickyl's thing |
| 23:22.59 | stefan_schmidt | CM: koen pasted the machine on ml IIRC |
| 23:23.15 | CM | stefan_schmidt: I know, but I can't remember :) |
| 23:23.21 | boorad | stefan_schmidt: I'm looking at the archives - was it Jan? |
| 23:23.24 | boorad | or Dec? |
| 23:23.41 | stefan_schmidt | franck: Your really need a fic guy for your question? Perhaps we can even answer. |
| 23:24.10 | CM | Tv said: MACHINE=ep93xx, DISTRO=generic |
| 23:24.58 | *** join/#openmoko unique (n=unique@ip43071.stuwe.fh-schmalkalden.de) |
| 23:25.05 | stefan_schmidt | MACHINE=ep93xx, DISTRO=generic |
| 23:25.12 | CM | :) |
| 23:25.13 | stefan_schmidt | heh, to slow |
| 23:25.22 | CM | thanks anyway |
| 23:25.29 | stefan_schmidt | np |
| 23:26.10 | *** join/#openmoko StylusEater (n=amd59c@ip70-191-114-7.cl.ri.cox.net) |
| 23:26.20 | *** part/#openmoko chingo (n=chingo@0x55511640.adsl.cybercity.dk) |
| 23:26.39 | stefan_schmidt | btw, if somebody is interested in the contacts/date backend. My last status was that they use eds: http://projects.o-hand.com/eds |
| 23:27.06 | stefan_schmidt | Small, embedded fitting, evolution data server rewrote. |
| 23:27.35 | buz | evolution as in ghastly outlook clone |
| 23:27.35 | StylusEater | hello... |
| 23:27.54 | stefan_schmidt | buz: The data server is nice. |
| 23:28.12 | buz | i just know i cant stand the frontend |
| 23:28.42 | stefan_schmidt | buz: heh, I use mutt and have a script query eds for emails addresses. :) |
| 23:29.00 | *** join/#openmoko PaK (i=PaK@217.96.125.131) |
| 23:29.13 | stefan_schmidt | http://projects.o-hand.com/dates |
| 23:29.20 | stefan_schmidt | http://projects.o-hand.com/contacts |
| 23:29.38 | *** join/#openmoko jtoy (n=jtoy@pool-71-126-237-199.bstnma.east.verizon.net) |
| 23:29.39 | stefan_schmidt | Both apps base on eds. Even nice to use on your desktop |
| 23:29.58 | buz | that doesnt look half bad |
| 23:30.18 | buz | being a kde user i still prefer kontact, but it seems orders of magnitude better than the actively hostile evolution gui |
| 23:30.28 | stefan_schmidt | buz: Still not complete ready. I miss some features, but better then full blown evolution :) |
| 23:30.49 | stefan_schmidt | buz: What does kontact use as backend? |
| 23:30.55 | buz | kde stack |
| 23:31.03 | buz | in the future it will use akonadi |
| 23:31.07 | stefan_schmidt | dbus? |
| 23:31.09 | buz | right now it's basically a bundle of kparts |
| 23:31.16 | stefan_schmidt | hmm, ok |
| 23:31.37 | buz | bundles kmail, korganizer, akregator, kaddressbook and a few small ones into one gu |
| 23:31.39 | buz | i |
| 23:31.59 | buz | that could be neat, indeed |
| 23:32.01 | stefan_schmidt | rsync with neo |
| 23:32.11 | buz | but it means you can only do updates to one at a time |
| 23:32.44 | stefan_schmidt | buz: hmm, right. That's silly. |
| 23:33.08 | buz | thats sort of hte whole point of syncml |
| 23:33.16 | buz | other than that you could simply beam around vcf and ical |
| 23:34.04 | StylusEater | buz | stefan_schmidt: do either of you know of a tentative base price for the openmoko based phone? (in USD?) |
| 23:34.14 | buz | 350$ |
| 23:34.15 | stefan_schmidt | 350 |
| 23:34.48 | stefan_schmidt | So I stick with syncml. |
| 23:34.50 | StylusEater | one more question...then I'll shut up...are there ongoing public negotiations with any US carriers yet? |
| 23:35.09 | stefan_schmidt | Nothing I heard of. |
| 23:35.29 | StylusEater | ok. ty - and thanks for the wonderful device :-) |
| 23:35.30 | stefan_schmidt | PErhaps some announcements about this when customers devices will be shipped. |
| 23:36.05 | stefan_schmidt | Thank Sean getting FIC to do it. |
| 23:36.08 | stefan_schmidt | :) |
| 23:36.19 | StylusEater | thank you Sean (if you're in here right now) |
| 23:37.38 | stefan_schmidt | He is not here, but will notice your thanks anyway. ;) |
| 23:39.00 | StylusEater | I don't want to interrupt your conversation...but may I ask one more question? |
| 23:39.52 | StylusEater | from what I've read/seen...it appears openmoko is looking for embedded developers, more so than GUI developers...is that correct? |
| 23:40.24 | CM | boorad: I'm doing the nano build now as a test, but it seems to be taking a while |
| 23:40.26 | stefan_schmidt | Application developer |
| 23:40.50 | StylusEater | stefan_schmidt: full stack app developers? |
| 23:41.34 | buz | for anyone |
| 23:41.36 | stefan_schmidt | StylusEater: It's free to you. Full stack, GUI only, lowlevel only. |
| 23:42.10 | buz | personally i hardly ever touch OSS code these days. i still like having the freedom to do so if needed |
| 23:42.15 | stefan_schmidt | StylusEater: I guess there will be projects groups working on a app together. But this will of course take some time to coordinate |
| 23:42.31 | StylusEater | understood |
| 23:42.37 | buz | anyway good night |
| 23:42.41 | StylusEater | night |
| 23:42.41 | stefan_schmidt | night buz |
| 23:43.33 | CM | What kind of patches is there in OE: NOTE: Applying patch 'fixchicken.patch' |
| 23:44.39 | boorad | CM: me too - but there are some base packages building before 'nano', I'm guessing |
| 23:44.50 | boorad | libtool, bison, all things we haven't built yet |
| 23:45.25 | stefan_schmidt | boorad: right, you need to build a toolchain for the board before building packages for it. |
| 23:45.42 | stefan_schmidt | boorad: Get some food. It'll take some time. :) |
| 23:45.46 | boorad | binutils seems to match the announcement spec |
| 23:45.58 | boorad | so looks like the machine/distro is fine |
| 23:46.06 | boorad | yep, just ordered some indian food |
| 23:46.11 | stefan_schmidt | heh |
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| 23:47.16 | boorad | stefan_schmidt: have you used D yet? |
| 23:47.43 | stefan_schmidt | boorad: Never. Programming language, right? |
| 23:47.53 | boorad | yep, I think it's ideal for mobile |
| 23:48.10 | cbpage | is that the same d in dtrace or something different? |
| 23:48.15 | boorad | Good stuff from C/C++,Java, removed the bad |
| 23:48.27 | boorad | dtrace is Sun's, D is DigitalMars |
| 23:48.54 | boorad | http://www.digitalmars.com/d |
| 23:49.42 | stefan_schmidt | import std.stdio; |
| 23:49.42 | stefan_schmidt | void main(char[][] args) |
| 23:49.56 | stefan_schmidt | heh, c and python in one file. :) |
| 23:50.07 | boorad | hehe |
| 23:50.20 | boorad | garbage-collected, but compiles to native |
| 23:50.28 | boorad | faaaaaast, too |
| 23:50.52 | stefan_schmidt | How they fixed the c buffer overflow problem? |
| 23:51.00 | stefan_schmidt | I hope they fixed it |
| 23:51.19 | xorAxAx | rpython is fast too |
| 23:52.03 | stefan_schmidt | rphyton? |
| 23:52.15 | xorAxAx | 60 times faster than python |
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| 23:52.34 | xorAxAx | stefan_schmidt: the language that was used to implement the pypy interpreter |
| 23:52.48 | stefan_schmidt | ah |
| 23:53.10 | stefan_schmidt | Somebody told me about pypy some time ago |
| 23:53.16 | xorAxAx | its a subset of python, but a pretty strong one (and even more dynamic than e.g. java) |
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| 23:53.50 | CM | boorad: Mine just failed on gettext-native-0.14-r3 |
| 23:54.41 | stefan_schmidt | greentux_: O-hand is a nice place for oe devs I guess. |
| 23:55.08 | greentux_ | stefan_schmidt: You are working there too? |
| 23:55.24 | stefan_schmidt | greentux_: No, only read about it yet. |
| 23:55.30 | greentux_ | stefan_schmidt: I had some business with allum |
| 23:55.48 | stefan_schmidt | greentux_: I'm student, but do small freelance jobs. |
| 23:55.56 | stefan_schmidt | greentux_: Good business? |
| 23:56.40 | greentux_ | stefan_schmidt: yes we sponsored some little features in the openzaurus distri. |
| 23:56.47 | greentux_ | stefan_schmidt: where do you live in D? |
| 23:58.19 | stefan_schmidt | greentux_: Small town near to Braunschweig near to Hannover |
| 23:58.40 | stefan_schmidt | greentux_: And you? Company? |
| 23:59.07 | CM | boorad: Ah, borking because I use sun-jdk-1.6... Should disable all java somehow |
| 23:59.15 | greentux_ | stefan_schmidt: dresden, small security related company |
