| 00:00.23 | spikebik1 | My BT GPS syncs from cold start in 40 seconds |
| 00:00.34 | spikebik1 | and lasts 300 or similar hours in standby |
| 00:00.44 | spikebik1 | and cost $70 |
| 00:00.54 | spikebik1 | I get 8/9 sats indoors at my house |
| 00:00.56 | DukeOfURL | who will manufacture the phone? |
| 00:00.58 | spikebik1 | and 10/11 outside |
| 00:01.07 | spikebik1 | openmoko = fic |
| 00:01.16 | DukeOfURL | FIC? |
| 00:01.25 | mjr | FIC. |
| 00:02.57 | *** join/#openmoko Sum1 (n=Sum1@80.175.142.81) |
| 00:03.10 | spikebik1 | kab I'd only believe that if someone showed the signal strength of being strong on 850 and poor on 1900 then moded a phone and showed it strong on both |
| 00:03.40 | spikebik1 | especially since part of the hack is overwriting the triband string to quadband |
| 00:03.50 | DukeOfURL | Ahhh FIC in Taiwan |
| 00:03.58 | spikebik1 | similar with edge... document a slower download before and a fast download after |
| 00:04.27 | spikebik1 | after all why would motorolas new high end rokr not have quad band if it was just a hex edit |
| 00:08.11 | spikebik1 | A-GPS's main purpose seems to be to make money, and allow for cheaper GPSs inside cell phones. |
| 00:08.32 | spikebik1 | Although that cheaper comes at the expense of bandwidth... which will of course cost $$$ |
| 00:08.49 | spikebik1 | services I've seen charge for it... AND 1 minute of airtime per waypoint set. |
| 00:09.26 | spikebik1 | hell I can't even get cingular/AT&T to set the time on my siemens phone. |
| 00:09.38 | spikebik1 | (which supports getting time from the cellular network) |
| 00:11.04 | spikebik1 | btw almanac data can last for months |
| 00:11.52 | spikebik1 | ephereris data is valid for 30 minutes or so |
| 00:12.26 | spikebik1 | but is broadcast every 30 seconds by each sat |
| 00:15.16 | mjr | yah, so basically you wake up to listen every half-hour and you should stay current without assist? shouldn't eat much battery... |
| 00:15.45 | spikebik1 | ah, cool found a reference |
| 00:15.50 | spikebik1 | a-gps typically saves 18 seconds |
| 00:15.55 | spikebik1 | (worst case) |
| 00:15.59 | spikebik1 | and zero (the common case) |
| 00:17.25 | mjr | "yay" |
| 00:19.09 | DukeOfURL | what is the pricing on the Neo1973? |
| 00:19.18 | mjr | $350 has been the quote |
| 00:19.24 | DukeOfURL | yikes |
| 00:19.57 | spikebik1 | not bad actually (for an unlocked/unsponsered phone) |
| 00:20.19 | *** join/#openmoko thedaniel_ (n=daniel@38.98.1.19) |
| 00:20.20 | DukeOfURL | I have an application where I provide a basic cell phone (no camera, no music, etc.) to a subject in order to track his movements. |
| 00:20.59 | DukeOfURL | Is there a cheap phone that will do this? |
| 00:21.15 | |Melkman| | the neo |
| 00:21.24 | spikebik1 | why not just get a GPS-logger? |
| 00:21.25 | mjr | it's quite a good price for the features, methinks |
| 00:22.03 | spikebik1 | (basically a battery, gps, and solid-state storage), usually a programable sample rate |
| 00:22.59 | DukeOfURL | Is there a phone where I can install a Java applet that will send location information to a central server? |
| 00:23.00 | DukeOfURL | cheap phone? |
| 00:23.00 | spikebik1 | ah, auto data collection |
| 00:23.06 | kabturek | spikebik1, http://www.motomodders.net/Default.aspx?tabid=55&view=topic&forumid=80&postid=271942 ;) |
| 00:23.24 | DukeOfURL | The way it works now, as I understand, is you send an SMS message to the target phone and it replies with location information. Very expensive with Cingular. |
| 00:23.45 | *** part/#openmoko unique (n=unique@ip43071.stuwe.fh-schmalkalden.de) |
| 00:24.28 | DukeOfURL | A GPS-logger won't work because it's a real-time applicaiton |
| 00:24.30 | |Melkman| | DukeOfURL: something like: http://tracking.gilsson.com/alwaysfind_mini.html |
| 00:24.38 | spikebik1 | numerous phones have gps, a-gps and support java or brew developed aps |
| 00:24.51 | spikebik1 | motorola e815 comes to mind |
| 00:24.59 | spikebik1 | Which I think is one of the cheaper ones |
| 00:25.45 | spikebik1 | v323 as well |
| 00:26.55 | spikebik1 | In general gprs is often way cheaper than SMS |
| 00:27.10 | mjr | yes, even when gprs is pricy, because sms is insanely priced |
| 00:27.18 | spikebik1 | indeed |
| 00:27.29 | spikebik1 | unlimited gprs on t-mobile is $5.99 which IMO is reasonable |
| 00:27.43 | spikebik1 | can't be used for laptops though |
| 00:27.43 | mjr | ooh, that's even better than my deal (10 € month) |
| 00:27.58 | spikebik1 | fine for uploading gps coords though |
| 00:28.09 | mjr | why not for laptops? |
| 00:28.21 | spikebik1 | because they charge differently for laptop bandwidth |
| 00:28.27 | spikebik1 | I think that's $20 ish |
| 00:28.35 | mjr | how do they tell? |
| 00:28.43 | *** join/#openmoko wabz (n=wabz@c211-30-4-5.artrmn1.nsw.optusnet.com.au) |
| 00:28.46 | spikebik1 | their locked phones disable DUN unless you pay |
| 00:28.54 | mjr | righto |
| 00:29.04 | *** join/#openmoko Zak (i=hidden-u@OBJECTIVECORPORATIONLIMITED.O2OCC76F01.optus.net.au) |
| 00:29.17 | spikebik1 | so yes sometimes you can get away with it |
| 00:29.23 | spikebik1 | and sometimes bt is locked out, but not usb |
| 00:29.25 | mjr | well, $20 for unlimited isn't that bad still |
| 00:29.31 | mjr | I paid 20€ until recently |
| 00:29.37 | Zak- | hi wabz |
| 00:29.53 | wabz | :) |
| 00:29.54 | spikebik1 | I'm less sure of that number, I think it's right.... I was shopping for openmoko/motorola gprs bandwidth |
| 00:30.57 | kabturek | spikebik1, ok here's the link to the e2 community - see on the forums that people use 850 ;) http://www.freemod.net |
| 00:31.18 | spikebik1 | kab that last URL is more convincing... interesting |
| 00:31.46 | *** join/#openmoko parag0n (n=parag0n@popeshoe.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 00:32.06 | kabturek | yeah but i dont know why motorola disables 850 ... |
| 00:32.23 | spikebik1 | I could see it on the e2.. it's selling cheap |
| 00:32.40 | spikebik1 | much harder to understand on their new high end phones like the e6 |
| 01:00.15 | *** join/#openmoko lkcl_ (n=lkcl@5ac5f3e8.bb.sky.com) |
| 01:00.54 | kabturek|away | ok time to go asleep :) later |
| 01:03.41 | *** join/#openmoko netx303_ (n=rlange@n2-55-2.dhcp.drexel.edu) |
| 01:05.22 | *** part/#openmoko netx303_ (n=rlange@n2-55-2.dhcp.drexel.edu) |
| 01:17.58 | *** join/#openmoko Stefan_C (n=No@ppp-70-247-189-199.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) |
| 01:18.14 | ozamosi | Wow... Just found a link to liberviscos article from yesterday in the news section of the swedish piracy party's forums. |
| 01:19.19 | *** join/#openmoko stryderjzw (n=stryderj@216.232.85.137) |
| 01:19.19 | parag0n | So the announcement today was that theres going to be an announcement on friday? |
| 01:19.19 | Stefan_C | hey guys, i just want to say as a mobile phone user i'm very excited about what you guys are doing |
| 01:19.44 | parag0n | i think quite a few of us are mobile phone users :) |
| 01:20.01 | Zer0Her0 | thanks Stefan_C |
| 01:20.03 | Zer0Her0 | hehe |
| 01:20.07 | parag0n | in fact, i'd say that 100% of the humans in here probably use a mobile phone |
| 01:20.21 | Stefan_C | no you don't understand how much i use my mobile phone |
| 01:20.22 | Zer0Her0 | since no one else wanted to accept, i'll take the gratitude :) |
| 01:20.25 | parag0n | but still, i agree, it is awesome :) |
| 01:22.21 | lamby | this question has probably been asked before, so sorry in advance - if one wanted to start messing about with potential applications right now, what platforms/libraries/limitations should one be looking at? i'm aware that there is no SDK per se, but it doesn't stop people perhaps prototyping ideas etc., or even getting projects ready to compile with the sdk. |
| 01:23.06 | parag0n | gtk2 and linux 2.6.17 are the only specs i've seen about the software |
| 01:23.11 | mjr | gtk c programs are pretty likely to blend in well... |
| 01:24.06 | *** join/#openmoko nslu2-log (i=slug@nslu2-linux/dyoung) |
| 01:24.38 | lamby | and what of higher level languages? are things like pygtk or the equivalent Perl/ruby library going to be satisfactory, or should one concentrate on C? |
| 01:27.08 | ozamosi | I believe many of these questions don't have any definitive answers yet, since the focus from the FIC-persons seems to be hardware at the moment, and no one else really know what's going on. |
| 01:27.29 | mjr | probably true |
| 01:27.45 | lamby | :-) |
| 01:28.08 | mjr | still, can't see why you couldn't use python, and I'd expect moko-spesific library bindings to appear for it from Thin Air (TM) |
| 01:28.11 | Stefan_C | have you guys tried working with real handset makers? |
| 01:28.30 | ozamosi | mjr: agreed |
| 01:28.47 | parag0n | FIC are a real handset maker :'< |
| 01:29.02 | lamby | at least in the openmoko community "no-one knows what's going on" translates to careful optimism, whilst in the iPhone 'community' it translates to countless fanboy posts about how great it might be |
| 01:29.18 | *** join/#openmoko nictuku (i=nictuku@ubuntu/member/nictuku) |
| 01:29.18 | ozamosi | I just wish that the current firmware revision was public, so people could have a look at what's happening. |
| 01:29.19 | myren | no multitouch? fucknutters! |
| 01:29.25 | myren | i missed that one! |
| 01:30.25 | lamby | mjr: i'm not so concerned about bindings, more about whether it would have the muscle to warrant having a python interpreter. but yes, nothing's in stone - I was half-hoping for a "nooes, you must use C" response :p ^_^ |
| 01:30.47 | Stefan_C | so where can idea man come in to the picture, i can't code for my life but i have the vision of a perfect mobile phone in my mind. i just need someone to create it |
| 01:30.56 | wabz | is the no multitouch thing a hardware limitation? |
| 01:30.58 | mjr | I think 266 MHz ARM is quite muscular enough for Python |
| 01:31.44 | mjr | 'course, dunno how full the stock flash will come by default, you might need to install on micro-sd *shrug* |
| 01:31.48 | lamby | Stefan_C: perhaps make some screenshots or animations of your ideas? much easier to communicate ideas like that in this way |
| 01:31.51 | Zer0Her0 | wabz: i think the discussion yestarday and on the mailing list said it's a driver issue and possibly a patent issue. |
| 01:32.06 | wabz | ahh |
| 01:32.19 | Stefan_C | lamby: not a designer either hehe i'm talking about features and user experiance not ui and eye candy |
| 01:32.57 | lamby | Stefan_C: but still. it would be hard to explain without diagrams, i'm sure. and i'm certain that people could see through your (claimed!) lack of design skills. |
| 01:38.18 | Stefan_C | well what's your role in all this lamby? |
| 01:40.24 | parag0n | a good thing to look at would be the gp2x games console, its based on a similar system (230mhz ARM SoC, 64MB RAM, 64MB NAND), and the developers manage to get quite a lot of power from it |
| 01:40.58 | lamby | Stefan_C: professional irc lurker |
| 01:41.12 | wabz | is this phone going to work in Australia? I have no idea how to tell |
| 01:42.13 | lamby | parag0n: neat |
| 01:42.19 | lamby | wabz: check the mailing list? |
| 01:42.37 | ozamosi | parag0n: gp2x has two processors, though |
| 01:42.47 | wabz | yeah, scrolling through now, can't find a search feature :p |
| 01:43.03 | lamby | parag0n: it's also C/SDL code though, rather low-level and no UI/GSM overhead. but still. |
| 01:43.04 | Stefan_C | well if it's quad band it should work everywhere in the world |
| 01:45.37 | mjr | well, everywhere with GSM service |
| 01:45.37 | parag0n | the second processor on the 2x is largely useless |
| 01:45.58 | parag0n | because it doesnt have a MMU or its own memory or something, i'm not sure on the details |
| 01:46.20 | ozamosi | Ok. I don't know, so I'll trust you :) |
| 01:47.30 | lamby | parag0n: and I suppose the era of PC games that one is likely to port to it won't take into account multiple cpus |
| 01:48.12 | parag0n | i'm hoping to grab the source from a few 2x games and port them to the openmoko |
| 01:48.25 | ozamosi | Hm... |
| 01:48.26 | parag0n | VGA screen <3 |
| 01:48.39 | lamby | port DooM \o/ |
| 01:48.54 | ozamosi | What's the name of that emulator all old console games use in 2x? |
| 01:49.01 | lamby | mame? |
| 01:49.07 | ozamosi | That's it! |
| 01:49.21 | ozamosi | I knew it was something like that, but maemo wasn't it :) |
| 01:49.57 | ozamosi | Do you think mame would work on the neo? |
| 01:50.19 | parag0n | yeah |
| 01:50.24 | thedaniel | ozamosi: mame is not console games reall |
| 01:50.25 | thedaniel | y |
| 01:50.27 | mjr | probably. Lack of hardware keys may make controlling many games awkward though. |
| 01:50.34 | thedaniel | the acronym is 'multiple arcade machine emulator' |
| 01:50.49 | mjr | ('less you get a BT keypad ;) |
| 01:50.54 | parag0n | the 2x's version is only 0.35 or something., and you'd have to add 'virtual' keys to it somehow |
| 01:51.55 | *** part/#openmoko nictuku (i=nictuku@ubuntu/member/nictuku) |
| 01:51.56 | mjr | yeah, virtual keys would work to an extent |
| 01:52.22 | parag0n | of course, with no multitouch... |
| 01:52.33 | parag0n | you can only press one button at a time :( |
| 01:53.07 | mjr | it'd probably be prudent to define combo softbuttons... |
| 01:53.08 | ozamosi | parag0n: if the hardware actually support it, maybe there'll be a 3:rd party way to get it :) |
| 01:53.33 | mjr | It's my impression that the hw doesn't. But who am I to know... |
| 01:53.54 | ozamosi | I think bluetooth keyboard would be simpler anyway :) |
| 01:54.15 | Stefan_C | does it have bluetooth? |
| 01:54.18 | thedaniel | when the 'games on neo' came up in the maillist my very first thought was Advance Wars DS |
| 01:54.19 | thedaniel | oh, we're back to talking about just input in general |
| 01:55.14 | ozamosi | Stefan_C: read topic :) |
| 01:55.16 | Stefan_C | does openmoko have bluetooth? |
| 01:55.30 | Stefan_C | ahhhhh thanks! |
| 01:57.48 | Stefan_C | is there anyone here actually in the openmoko project? |
| 01:58.26 | Psi | there is at least 1 |
| 01:58.33 | Psi | and, no, its not me :P |
| 01:58.51 | ozamosi | Probably not at this hour, though. |
| 01:59.51 | Stefan_C | well i just wanted to shout out an idea. with all this hype about web os's and such ... why not throw one on the openmoko? pay a provider a small fee and we get a login page so we can use a full blown browser to manipulate all the data on our mokos |
| 02:00.17 | cbpage | why not put the web server on the moko? |
| 02:00.21 | cbpage | (yes, i'm very serious) |
| 02:00.40 | *** join/#openmoko eikonos (n=eikonos@S0106001310d36705.gv.shawcable.net) |
| 02:00.41 | cbpage | then when you connect it to a pc you could set up contacts etc |
| 02:00.55 | Stefan_C | that's what i just said |
| 02:01.26 | Stefan_C | i wrote a whole post about it on my blog, let me dig it up |
| 02:01.49 | cbpage | the bit about a provider threw me off |
| 02:02.17 | Stefan_C | http://www.ringnokia.com/2006/11/my_laptop_is_th.html |
| 02:02.51 | Stefan_C | well see think about it, in order for it to work from any computer the ip of the device would have to be known, similar to a dyndns thing. that usually isn't free |
| 02:03.19 | Stefan_C | to further make things more managable, have the UI hosted on someones powerful server and just get the data off the moko so it isn't being strained |
| 02:04.50 | *** join/#openmoko Agrajag- (n=filip@c211-30-4-5.artrmn1.nsw.optusnet.com.au) |
| 02:06.43 | spikebik1 | dyndns is free |
| 02:06.47 | spikebik1 | up to 5 IPs or so |
| 02:07.15 | Stefan_C | throw some google ads by the users content and there is your revenue model |
| 02:08.09 | thedaniel | Stefan_C - is this basically the Sidekick experience? |
| 02:08.17 | thedaniel | (forgive, i only scanned the blog post) |
| 02:08.23 | Stefan_C | i wouldn't know i never used a sidekick |
| 02:08.36 | thedaniel | They have a full web interface for all PIM features of the phone |
| 02:09.06 | thedaniel | and it syncs OTA |
| 02:09.06 | thedaniel | your camphone pictures etc also sync OTA automatically and you can log in at tmobile.com to look at everything stored in your phone |
| 02:09.33 | ozamosi | sounds expensive... |
| 02:09.52 | thedaniel | not in the US |
| 02:10.05 | spikebik1 | depends |
| 02:10.07 | thedaniel | USD 20 for unlimited data and SMS when I had a Sidekick II a year or two ago |
| 02:10.31 | thedaniel | i think it might be 30 now |
| 02:10.50 | spikebik1 | some carriers have reasonable gprs, some don't |
| 02:11.06 | thedaniel | spikebik1: true - most of my experience has been with t-mobile, which has very reasonable rates |
| 02:11.07 | leventhal | ah yeah.. only good thing about the sidekick is the data plan |
| 02:11.17 | Stefan_C | thats where the bluetooth comes in |
| 02:11.25 | Stefan_C | connect the moko to your pc via bt |
| 02:11.33 | thedaniel | i pay 29.95 for unlimited data and a subscription to their WiFi network (found in starbux and hotels) |
| 02:11.35 | Stefan_C | the point i'm trying to make is don't limit your input options |
| 02:12.04 | Stefan_C | 640x480 and fingers are nice ... but we can do something so much richer |
| 02:12.10 | thedaniel | and a good point it is - i would be very, very happy with a clone of the sidekick's web interface, with additional sync / import / export thrown in |
| 02:15.08 | *** join/#openmoko DebianTUX (n=Felipe@201008001085.user.veloxzone.com.br) |
| 02:15.17 | DebianTUX | hi. what is openmoko? |
| 02:16.08 | thedaniel | DebianTUX: http://www.openmoko.com/files/OpenMoko_20061107.txt |
| 02:16.16 | thedaniel | press releease for you |
| 02:17.00 | DebianTUX | im seeing some photos |
| 02:17.26 | *** join/#openmoko theBishop (n=mike@68.80.122.9) |
| 02:17.53 | theBishop | no wifi, eh? |
| 02:17.55 | theBishop | that's too bad |
| 02:22.07 | *** join/#openmoko ninHer (n=ninHer@unaffiliated/ninher) |
| 02:33.44 | Stefan_C | listen stop using the word sync |
| 02:33.47 | Stefan_C | i'm not talking aboutu sync |
| 02:33.58 | Stefan_C | i'm talking about manipulating the data in real time |
| 02:35.51 | thedaniel | i think that's unfeasible |
| 02:35.51 | thedaniel | but you could achieve a similar effect with a fast sync, or like a 'push' sync |
| 02:43.24 | aloril | current peak record: 163 nicks, seems to currently at 52th place: http://irc.netsplit.de/channels/?net=freenode&query=&num=50 |
| 02:43.55 | aloril | (tough to my eyes it seems to list 9 channels/page instead of 10) |
| 02:56.12 | aloril | this comment gave me mostly useless idea: "2007-01-16 22:12:08 <xkr47> if I'd get two mokos instead, it would only cost 200 more and I could use the other moko as a keyboard *giggle*" |
| 02:56.42 | aloril | connect them with bluetooth and run same software and with 2 neos you can have 2 touch screen ;-) |
| 02:56.51 | lamby | multitouch! |
| 02:57.01 | tg | haha |
| 03:02.54 | parag0n | why stop with 2? |
| 03:03.00 | parag0n | get about 60 of them |
| 03:03.04 | parag0n | make a video wall |
| 03:03.17 | *** join/#openmoko DukeOfURL (n=chatzill@vc7-1-39.dsl.netrack.net) |
| 03:03.30 | aloril | for input less useful, but 4 could be possible: 2 hands and 2 foots |
| 03:03.38 | lamby | ha, good luck if someone calls you. "argh which one do i answer?!" |
| 03:04.09 | leventhal | shit, make a mobile beowulf |
| 03:04.23 | aloril | I bet there are huge amount of ideas for multitouch not yet invented, I just wish neo would have multitouch so that those would be invented first by free people and not by patent people |
| 03:05.45 | *** join/#openmoko DukeOfURL (n=chatzill@vc7-1-39.dsl.netrack.net) |
| 03:07.05 | aloril | its a bit like you were being offered full keyboard and then you get only morse code :-( |
| 03:07.13 | aloril | (well not exactly but ..) |
| 03:07.23 | lamby | "full" just depends on your alphabet ^^ |
| 03:07.30 | aloril | hehe |
| 03:08.42 | parag0n | *if* multitouch can be done by an existing touchscreen, and its just a software patent issue, everyone outside the US will be allowed multitouch on their neos ;) |
| 03:09.47 | *** join/#openmoko edwardocallaghan (n=edward@host86-129-157-47.range86-129.btcentralplus.com) |
| 03:10.02 | lamby | software patents are such tripe anyway. |
| 03:10.18 | parag0n | indeed |
| 03:10.26 | aloril | parag0n: I really wish this is case (it being only software thing) |
| 03:10.45 | parag0n | i hope so |
| 03:10.53 | parag0n | if so, it wont be without it for long ;) |
| 03:11.09 | lamby | hmm having multiple pointers would require some h4x to the X code |
| 03:11.43 | spikebik1 | parag0n ummm multi-touch is not patentable |
| 03:11.47 | spikebik1 | it's existed for quite some time |
| 03:11.51 | parag0n | good |
| 03:11.56 | spikebik1 | the name however is |
| 03:12.01 | spikebik1 | but the ability is not |
| 03:12.04 | thedaniel | lamby: i don't think you will need to do much hacking to x |
| 03:12.08 | spikebik1 | I've seen popular videos on it for years |
| 03:12.16 | lamby | thedaniel: good, I wasn't planning on doing it myself ;-) |
| 03:12.26 | parag0n | i'm just wondering how apple managed to patent 400 things in the iPhone, or if someone just made that number up |
| 03:12.51 | lamby | probably some apple fanboy |
| 03:13.08 | ozamosi | lamby: it can be done. There is some kind of X patch that enables multiple pointers |
| 03:13.31 | edwardocallaghan | Hi |
| 03:13.35 | lamby | ozamosi: excellent.. I definately won't have to do that myself then ;-) |
| 03:13.37 | parag0n | i was really excited about the iPhone until i found openmoko :D |
| 03:13.43 | aloril | full multitouch support would require hacks on X11, gtk+, applications, but I bet I could do some multitouch with a lot less hacking |
| 03:14.15 | parag0n | the fact i wouldnt be able to write software for the iphone killed it for me completely |
| 03:14.19 | lamby | parag0n: really? :-/ no SDK? with DRM? locked down? 6 month waiting time? |
| 03:14.26 | lamby | parag0n: ah |
| 03:14.29 | aloril | for example multitouch gestures -> keypresses (including ctrl-, alt-, shift-, etc..: nice for xemacs for example) |
| 03:14.31 | spikebik1 | parag0n same here. |
| 03:15.04 | parag0n | i'm going to be waiting at least 2 months for the neo anyway i suspect :/ |
| 03:15.07 | parag0n | if not more |
| 03:15.47 | edwardocallaghan | Have you guys seen this http://www.gnusolaris.org/ ? |
| 03:15.50 | parag0n | erk, 3am |
| 03:15.53 | parag0n | night guys |
| 03:15.54 | aloril | why not? VGA screen existed back then and Neo is plenty more powerful than computers 15 years ago ;-) |
| 03:15.56 | edwardocallaghan | Very cool indeed |
| 03:16.38 | lamby | edwardocallaghan: I played with the livecd thingie a few months back :) |
| 03:16.44 | lamby | aloril: :-) |
| 03:16.50 | lamby | nn parag0n |
| 03:17.08 | edwardocallaghan | Do a install yet ? |
| 03:17.11 | aloril | lamby: actually I'm serious, I do plan to code with Neo 1973 |
| 03:17.11 | edwardocallaghan | s/Do/Done/ |
| 03:18.01 | edwardocallaghan | ^See my great usage of sed up there on the IRC ^ :D |
| 03:18.11 | lamby | aloril: i'm sure you are serious |
| 03:18.16 | thedaniel | dudes what is this irc bot |
| 03:18.17 | lamby | aloril: ;) |
| 03:18.21 | aloril | dunno yet how much programs would run locally and how much would be by using FreeNX |
| 03:18.23 | thedaniel | i love the search and replace |
| 03:18.36 | ozamosi | aloril: what kind of input? onscreen keyboard? There won't be any space left for the characters! :) |
| 03:19.00 | edwardocallaghan | plug a roll up USB one in ;) |
| 03:19.08 | lamby | ozamosi: ha, you've never used emacs have you? you just use shift and ctrl to type everything. |
| 03:19.17 | aloril | ozamosi: multitouch gestures, but so that underlying screen would be visible, but.. well I will invent something |
| 03:19.26 | edwardocallaghan | lamby:Did you play with ZFS yet ? |
| 03:19.34 | aloril | ozamosi: at least Twiddler2 should work if nothing else |
| 03:19.49 | ozamosi | (yes, I was the one who wanted to buy a 14" laptop, because I didn't think I'd be able to see what's on the monitor if it was smaller. yes, my 13" laptop is my main computer) |
| 03:19.56 | *** join/#openmoko ninHer (n=ninHer@unaffiliated/ninher) |
| 03:20.06 | lamby | edwardocallaghan: no |
| 03:20.08 | *** join/#openmoko akunin (n=chatzill@134.159.130.58) |
| 03:20.21 | lamby | edwardocallaghan: should I? :p |
| 03:20.30 | edwardocallaghan | Yes, very much so ! |
| 03:20.43 | edwardocallaghan | Its ultra cool ! |
| 03:21.12 | edwardocallaghan | Edward switches to Run level -- 'Bed time' -- soon |
| 03:21.26 | lamby | seems like a mashup between RAID-1 and reiserFS |
| 03:21.42 | lamby | lol, and SAN storage |
| 03:21.57 | edwardocallaghan | ZFS is the end all |
| 03:22.05 | lamby | no silver bullets! |
| 03:22.51 | edwardocallaghan | no, this maybe it |
| 03:22.54 | edwardocallaghan | http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/zfs_learning_center.jsp |
| 03:22.58 | edwardocallaghan | check it out |
| 03:23.14 | lamby | aloril: maybe speech recognition would be funnier. I want to overhear someone saying "hash bang usr slash bin shash perl enter enter use strict " etc ;) |
| 03:23.48 | lamby | edwardocallaghan: hehe only a few people in the world get excited over filesystems ^^ |
| 03:24.19 | edwardocallaghan | I am using it over a load of different disks in mirror RAIDs that are strip together |
| 03:24.32 | edwardocallaghan | Yes well I'm one when its that good |
| 03:25.00 | lamby | but you can do that with current linux software raid ^ |
| 03:25.41 | lamby | dot dot without having to change OS :p |
| 03:25.57 | edwardocallaghan | When a disk fails, nothing happens ... everything cares on as normal and tells you, "Oh by the way a disk just blow up, I suggest you do something about that" |
| 03:26.26 | lamby | ya, md.c does that already with some userland tool like mdadm |
| 03:26.36 | edwardocallaghan | But you can use cheap disks, no RIAD controller required |
| 03:26.53 | spikebik1 | yup, sounds like linux + md |
| 03:26.55 | lamby | that's what I'm talking about too - linux software raid |
| 03:26.56 | edwardocallaghan | You can build a mirror in less then a second |
| 03:27.19 | spikebik1 | umm, I never timed it, doesn't take long on linux |
| 03:27.25 | *** part/#openmoko akunin (n=chatzill@134.159.130.58) |
| 03:27.27 | edwardocallaghan | Volume management and the Linux software RAID is .... |
| 03:27.37 | spikebik1 | lvm or evms |
| 03:27.42 | lamby | it's fine, just run LVM on top. |
| 03:27.46 | spikebik1 | I use lvm2 mostly |
| 03:27.49 | edwardocallaghan | chunky and old |
| 03:27.55 | spikebik1 | works great for me |
| 03:28.03 | spikebik1 | I've had longer uptimes than zfs has existed |
| 03:28.11 | *** join/#openmoko TimmyJ (n=tim@resnet218-226.resnet.buffalo.edu) |
| 03:28.28 | spikebik1 | mirrors, snapshots, and changing volume sizes meets my volume management needs |
| 03:28.34 | edwardocallaghan | Watch the videos of ZFS, you really got to see this stuff ... |
| 03:28.59 | edwardocallaghan | auto mounts and unmounts filesystems |
| 03:29.26 | ozamosi | Videos? I thougt that even screenshots was overkill for file systems :) |
| 03:29.27 | spikebik1 | zfs is way to propietary/non portable to consider for most of the stuff I do |
| 03:29.31 | edwardocallaghan | create and destroy them as and when needed |
| 03:29.54 | edwardocallaghan | propietary? |
| 03:29.58 | lamby | spikebik1: so, md+lwm on the openmoko? ^^ |
| 03:29.59 | spikebik1 | automount/unmounts are revolutionary 1970 technologies |
| 03:30.57 | edwardocallaghan | no, you need to have a look at it before you can talk about it |
| 03:31.03 | ozamosi | spikebik1: I believe all the hype is because all the cool stuff are integrated into the filesystem - you've already mentioned a handfull of applications a user must learn |
| 03:31.13 | edwardocallaghan | Solaris maybe soon under the GPL |
| 03:31.31 | spikebik1 | yeah, so I hear |
| 03:31.33 | edwardocallaghan | Its already open and you can get all the code for ZFS so how is it propietary |
| 03:31.44 | spikebik1 | gpl is cool, much better then the sun community license |
| 03:31.51 | spikebik1 | hopefully it well get ported to some cool platforms |
| 03:31.58 | spikebik1 | right now solaris isn't very portable |
| 03:32.09 | spikebik1 | is osx 10.5 going to come with zfs? |
| 03:32.16 | edwardocallaghan | Yes |
| 03:32.30 | spikebik1 | cool, that should increase exposure dramatically |
| 03:32.44 | edwardocallaghan | And that's rubbish Solaris can run on a lot of different ARK's |
| 03:32.54 | spikebik1 | ARK's? |
| 03:32.59 | edwardocallaghan | inc PPC |
| 03:33.20 | spikebik1 | zfs + solaris runs on powerpc today? |
| 03:33.29 | spikebik1 | I don't consider 3 "lots" |
| 03:33.39 | edwardocallaghan | http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/zfs_learning_center.jsp Watch the videos ... then try it out with some old disks, even use broken ones with bad sectors |
| 03:33.48 | edwardocallaghan | yes it does |
| 03:33.58 | edwardocallaghan | Google Polaris |
| 03:34.24 | spikebik1 | wow sun has sector remapping? |
| 03:34.35 | spikebik1 | I think thats a 1980's tech ;-) |
| 03:34.49 | spikebik1 | linux is the king of old tech |
| 03:35.02 | edwardocallaghan | ext3 is not a 128bit file system now is it ? |
| 03:35.13 | spikebik1 | right, and 128 bits is silly |
| 03:35.13 | DukeOfURL | sector remapping is 1960s tech |
| 03:35.37 | spikebik1 | at the high end, not the common case though |
| 03:35.40 | edwardocallaghan | You got some old disks there? |
| 03:35.48 | DukeOfURL | Why did FIC stop at 128MB RAM??? |
| 03:35.58 | DukeOfURL | for the Neo1973? |
| 03:35.59 | spikebik1 | 128MB is about double the usual |
| 03:36.23 | edwardocallaghan | just normal ATA type will do, try making a Pool with ZFS |
| 03:36.45 | DukeOfURL | But package size is about the same for 512MB... |
| 03:36.56 | DukeOfURL | Maybe more heat, though |
| 03:37.23 | spikebik1 | edwardo calculate how many years of disk production would have to be in a single filesystem to need 2^65 blocks |
| 03:37.56 | edwardocallaghan | Then do $dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/hda1 or what ever your disk is and wipe out say the first 2gb of your data and see how ZFS handles that |
| 03:38.32 | edwardocallaghan | 16exobytes is the limit |
| 03:38.40 | edwardocallaghan | So it scales ;) |
| 03:39.03 | lamby | that's not justification for "it scales" in the /slightest/ |
| 03:39.31 | edwardocallaghan | That was a joke C3PO |
| 03:40.11 | spikebik1 | right so major parts of ZFS have more overhead to handle the case when a decades worth of the earths disk production is put on a single computer |
| 03:40.32 | lamby | edwardocallaghan: ;-) |
| 03:41.00 | ozamosi | spikebik1: it IS possible to fill a zfs file system! You just have to ionize all oceans! |
| 03:41.03 | edwardocallaghan | lol |
| 03:41.11 | edwardocallaghan | Just try it |
| 03:41.17 | spikebik1 | oza nope |
| 03:41.23 | spikebik1 | edwardo yeah RAID works ;-) |
| 03:41.50 | edwardocallaghan | I guess you guys are here because you like to play like me |
| 03:42.05 | edwardocallaghan | So have a play and your see why ZFS is cool ... |
| 03:42.26 | edwardocallaghan | RAID works but not the way its done at the moment |
| 03:42.30 | spikebik1 | I tried zfs on a few dual opterons, no drivers 8-( |
| 03:42.31 | DukeOfURL | When will the Neo1973 SDRAM shut down? Will there be a sleep mode for the phone? How will that work? |
| 03:42.38 | *** join/#openmoko Laibsch (n=Laibsch@R76ce.r.ppp-pool.de) |
| 03:42.40 | edwardocallaghan | RAID-Z2 very cool |
| 03:42.54 | spikebik1 | and my spare machine right now is an itanium, so no port |
| 03:43.02 | thedaniel | http://pastie.caboo.se/33683 |
| 03:43.16 | spikebik1 | and I wanted to test zfs on my killer dual opteron raid server, no raid controller driver |
| 03:43.46 | spikebik1 | I'm sure I'm stumple across some solaris compatible hardware at some point |
| 03:44.08 | edwardocallaghan | But you don't need a RAID controller for ZFS RAID's ! |
| 03:44.38 | spikebik1 | Heh, well I don't use the RAID controller for raid, software raid is way faster |
| 03:44.44 | spikebik1 | I just use it to get 16 SATA ports |
| 03:44.45 | edwardocallaghan | Try a express build on opensolaris.org |
| 03:44.53 | lamby | nn guys and gals |
| 03:44.59 | ozamosi | spikebik1: actually, me and a friend of mine tried to calculate it. Our results showed that only about 75% of all water on earth would need to be ionized to free enough nitrogen to fill 16exobytes. We used some estimations, but I don't think they were that far off. |
| 03:45.31 | spikebik1 | oza and how does one encode data in nitrogen plasma? |
| 03:45.42 | ozamosi | spikebik1: that is currently not possible. |
| 03:45.53 | spikebik1 | I did the calculation and it was something like 30 years assuming disks got twice as big every year |
| 03:46.11 | spikebik1 | and of course that isn't in a networked filesystem, but hooked up to a single computer |
| 03:46.30 | ozamosi | But if you used all water on earth to store information, instead of drinking it, then zfs Could run into some problems with space! |
| 03:46.32 | spikebik1 | practically it seemed like 64 bits is enough for the next 100 years or so |
| 03:47.07 | spikebik1 | and will run significantly faster since it's a native datatype for almost every cpu |
| 03:47.12 | ozamosi | In this example, I use nitrogen atoms as bits, if that wasn't obvious. |
| 03:47.16 | spikebik1 | and of course doubles the bandwidth |
| 03:47.23 | spikebik1 | heh |
| 03:47.37 | spikebik1 | but an atom can encode more than one bit ;-) |
| 03:48.24 | spikebik1 | so zfs screams to me, sun marketing, existing functionality, and significantly increased overhead |
| 03:48.55 | spikebik1 | available on a very limited platform (limited hardware, limited OSs) |
| 03:49.20 | spikebik1 | ignoring the native 64 data type seems particularly weird |
| 03:49.28 | ozamosi | spikebik1: you see? 128 bits won't be enough! Let's create a 256 bit file system! :D |
| 03:49.37 | spikebik1 | and be twice as great as sun! |
| 03:49.41 | edwardocallaghan | Yes that's another thing about ZFS, it takes care of endianness |
| 03:49.43 | spikebik1 | and next year 512 |
| 03:50.02 | spikebik1 | filesystems can't fix endianness |
| 03:50.46 | edwardocallaghan | What a bet ? |
| 03:50.50 | spikebik1 | yeah |
| 03:51.08 | spikebik1 | If I write 16 bytes to zfs it has no idea if that is 1 number, 16 numbers, or a string |
| 03:51.13 | edwardocallaghan | You can take a ZFS pool out of a SPARC box and put it in a x86 box |
| 03:51.50 | spikebik1 | and c code when it reads those 16 bytes will die on the wrong endian machine |
| 03:52.15 | spikebik1 | maybe you mean the metadata... thats common |
| 03:52.42 | ozamosi | I mean - when you buy a razor, it has 5 blades, but you can only use it on one face at a time. That's four wasted razors for every "sane" one. If we believe 64 bits is "enough", we can create a 320 bit file system, and still not be worse than gillette. |
| 03:53.07 | spikebik1 | ozamosi but it's worse |
| 03:53.14 | spikebik1 | using a 5 blade razor is no slower than a 1 |
| 03:53.29 | spikebik1 | where as slinging around 128 bits of data is dramatically slower (not just twice) than 64 |
| 03:53.45 | ozamosi | Now you're being boring :P |
| 03:53.47 | spikebik1 | and of course the file data structures balloon |
| 03:54.02 | edwardocallaghan | each block had a bit in it that specifies the block if it matches the hardware it does nothing, if the endianess doesn't match zfs converts it... |
| 03:54.14 | spikebik1 | things like seek, stat, getdir, and related all get slower, pollute the caches more, have lower memory bandwidht, and higher memory overhead |
| 03:54.14 | DukeOfURL | why not directly address the file system? |
| 03:54.35 | DukeOfURL | a 64 bit address translates into a sector that is magically brought into RAM |
| 03:54.51 | spikebik1 | edwardo but endian problems aren't block related |
| 03:54.51 | DukeOfURL | unused pages get flushed (:RU) |
| 03:54.57 | DukeOfURL | LRU |
| 03:55.01 | spikebik1 | dukeofUrl welcome to linux and mmap |
| 03:55.18 | DukeOfURL | cool |
| 03:55.20 | spikebik1 | impossible to do on zfs |
| 03:55.26 | edwardocallaghan | it was designed from the start to not be endian-specific |
| 03:55.31 | spikebik1 | because no cpu today can handle a 2^128 address space |
| 03:55.36 | ozamosi | Well... Every modern filesystem has journals and that kind of stuff, so that's not Really "direct" |
| 03:55.46 | spikebik1 | edwardo right, but the hard part isn't the filesystem it's the data on the filesystem. |
| 03:56.12 | spikebik1 | oza it often is |
| 03:56.21 | spikebik1 | often on linux anwyays, only metadata is journaled |
| 03:56.32 | spikebik1 | you can journal both if ya want |
| 03:56.53 | DukeOfURL | spikebik1: what is the address space for mmap? |
| 03:57.06 | edwardocallaghan | Read up on ZFS, sounds like you don't know about it yet |
| 03:57.09 | spikebik1 | the CPUs |
| 03:57.17 | spikebik1 | edwardo I know quite a bit about it actually |
| 03:57.18 | edwardocallaghan | How can you compare ? |
| 03:57.35 | edwardocallaghan | OK |
| 03:57.52 | edwardocallaghan | But you have not ever used it as you said ^ |
| 03:57.58 | spikebik1 | right |
| 03:58.05 | spikebik1 | I've never set off a nuke either |
| 03:58.22 | spikebik1 | doesn't mean I don't understand many aspects |
| 03:58.37 | ozamosi | I've used it. My home folder on my school account rests on zfs :) |
| 03:58.41 | spikebik1 | I'm giving you a hard time because your going on about silly irrelevant marketing stuff |
| 03:58.50 | spikebik1 | that actually damages performance |
| 03:58.57 | spikebik1 | and saying nothing about the cooler parts of zfs |
| 03:59.02 | edwardocallaghan | http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/onnv/onnv-gate/usr/src/uts/common/fs/zfs/zfs_byteswap.c Hope this clears thing up then |
| 03:59.27 | spikebik1 | edwardo right |
| 03:59.41 | spikebik1 | so you can mount a non-native filesystem (a very common ability) |
| 04:00.03 | spikebik1 | but it does nothing to solve endian issues in the applications (which is where the real problem is) |
| 04:00.16 | spikebik1 | so all your data is unreadable |
| 04:00.23 | spikebik1 | but you can run ls... woohoo!!! |
| 04:01.20 | edwardocallaghan | iostat is not built to gives details of IO utilization on Linux software RIAD's |
| 04:01.40 | spikebik1 | of course sun marketing often lets little things like that get ignored |
| 04:02.23 | edwardocallaghan | You can't do roll backs |
| 04:02.50 | edwardocallaghan | OK its 4am in the uk now... |
| 04:02.52 | edwardocallaghan | :p |
| 04:03.21 | spikebik1 | er ummm the purpose of snapshots is to allow rollbacks |
| 04:03.31 | edwardocallaghan | Oh and it Checksum's all data |
| 04:03.36 | spikebik1 | and the purpose of transaction logs is to allow restoring partial transactions |
| 04:04.35 | spikebik1 | checksums are nice, I'd prefer it not be in the filesystem so it's not required, there's significant overhead in calculating them |
| 04:04.53 | spikebik1 | are the checksums per block or per file? |
| 04:07.26 | aloril | I think neo1973 with IM should beat easily (with some nice software keyboard of course (like maybe hexinput), not qwerty on screen one): http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-2-1571664,00.html |
| 04:08.10 | edwardocallaghan | per block |
| 04:08.25 | spikebik1 | seems kinda strange |
| 04:08.31 | spikebik1 | the hardware already has a checksum |
| 04:09.02 | spikebik1 | so safer.... and slower. I can see making that compromise.... sometimes. |
| 04:09.12 | edwardocallaghan | a lot of overhead is solved by dynamic striping |
| 04:09.42 | edwardocallaghan | meta data is only created when needed |
| 04:09.52 | edwardocallaghan | Mate I have to go to sleep |
| 04:09.57 | ozamosi | aloril: *complaints about lack of wlan* |
| 04:10.01 | edwardocallaghan | Are you around tomorrow ? |
| 04:10.15 | spikebik1 | so suddently writing 1 bit = reading an entire block from disk -> interface -> main memory, calculate checksum, then write checksum from cpu -> interface -> disk |
| 04:10.24 | aloril | ozamosi: flat rate GPRS here ;-) |
| 04:11.27 | ozamosi | aloril: thing is, I don't use my phone much. I got some nice start offerings, and I haven't paid a cent since. That was about 2 years ago. Paying $10-$30 a month for gprs is... :( |
| 04:12.09 | ozamosi | (that's the flat rate prices I've heard here) |
| 04:12.55 | ozamosi | But of course - IM (and IRC, if that's not included in IM) is probably what I'd use it for most either way. |
| 04:14.21 | edwardocallaghan | Night |
| 04:14.23 | *** part/#openmoko edwardocallaghan (n=edward@host86-129-157-47.range86-129.btcentralplus.com) |
| 04:17.03 | *** join/#openmoko amarsh05 (n=amarsh04@124.178.207.21) |
| 04:17.35 | aloril | ozamosi: 10-15 EUR here I think, more for flat rate EDGE and 3D |
| 04:19.24 | spikebik1 | t-mobile here has something called mobile-web for $5.99 unlimited |
| 04:19.28 | spikebik1 | not sure exactly what it is though |
| 04:19.39 | spikebik1 | sounds like unlimited edge/gprs but not for a laptop |
| 04:29.44 | spikebik1 | I'm excited that there will be news friday |
| 04:31.30 | spikebik1 | hah, excellent |
| 04:31.33 | spikebik1 | http://www.epidauros.be/raid.jpg |
| 04:32.16 | *** join/#openmoko amarsh06 (n=amarsh04@CPE-124-177-205-2.sa.bigpond.net.au) |
| 04:39.50 | ozamosi | Maybe the news on friday will be that there will be more information next week? :D |
| 04:40.46 | Psi | the news is.... "THERE IS NEWS COMING!!" |
| 04:40.49 | Psi | :P |
| 04:45.57 | *** join/#openmoko cbpage (n=cpage@netblock-68-183-40-91.dslextreme.com) |
| 04:50.22 | *** join/#openmoko davidmoore (n=davidmoo@adsl-68-127-11-114.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) |
| 04:55.03 | *** join/#openmoko pipit_ (i=pipit@slip202-135-7-228.jk.id.prserv.net) |
| 05:03.36 | *** join/#openmoko nite (n=nite@67.128.2.9) |
| 05:04.15 | nite | hey when will the neo1973 be released |
| 05:05.37 | ozamosi | We don't really know. I think the first phones should ship in February |
| 05:05.52 | nite | us side? |
| 05:06.03 | ozamosi | But that'll probably be for developers |
| 05:06.05 | ozamosi | Huh? |
| 05:06.21 | nite | meaning not uk |
| 05:06.33 | nite | but US |
| 05:06.54 | ozamosi | Global, online ordering. |
| 05:07.03 | ozamosi | ...and shipping. |
| 05:07.06 | nite | ok |
| 05:07.26 | ozamosi | At least, that's what I've heard. Not all details are public yet. |
| 05:07.26 | nite | shame only for developers not for testers |
| 05:07.37 | nite | gotchya |
| 05:07.45 | nite | i see |
| 05:07.55 | pipit | how much will it's cost ? |
| 05:07.56 | *** join/#openmoko thedaniel (n=daniel@netblock-68-183-179-95.dslextreme.com) |
| 05:08.05 | ozamosi | Check back on friday - they're going to announce their roadmap then. |
| 05:08.12 | ozamosi | pipit: $350 |
| 05:08.44 | nite | $350 is worth it for the fredom |
| 05:09.02 | nite | oops freedom sheesh |
| 05:09.09 | ozamosi | It sure is :) |
| 05:09.12 | nite | rubber fingers lol |
| 05:09.39 | pipit | what os will it use ? |
| 05:09.46 | pipit | ozamosi : thx |
| 05:09.58 | ozamosi | pipit: linux :) |
| 05:10.57 | nite | Linux my all time favorite Os |
| 05:12.38 | nite | the phone looks so juicy need to get my hands on one |
| 05:12.48 | nite | but with wifi |
| 05:16.08 | pipit | the topic said no wifi |
| 05:16.26 | nite | oh |
| 05:16.59 | nite | <PROTECTED> |
| 05:18.38 | nite | ok feature rich lol |
| 05:19.21 | *** join/#openmoko PirateHead (n=piratehe@ACA2817F.ipt.aol.com) |
| 05:21.49 | nite | anyhow got my answer answered thx guys |
| 05:21.49 | nite | goodnight |
| 05:24.01 | pipit | how openmoko compare to motorolla mottoming? |
| 05:44.47 | cbpage | ming has a camera, openmoko has a 640x480 screen |
| 05:44.47 | cbpage | and more importantly openmoko handles native coded apps ;) |
| 05:44.49 | pipit | i see |
| 05:45.00 | *** join/#openmoko billytwowilly (n=chris@S01060016b649355d.ed.shawcable.net) |
| 05:45.01 | billytwowilly | so there's all this talk of shipping, but I can't find a price for the phone anywhere... |
| 05:45.02 | *** join/#openmoko eikonos (n=eikonos@S0106001310d36705.gv.shawcable.net) |
| 05:45.02 | ozamosi | $350 is what I've seen |
| 05:45.04 | billytwowilly | k, thanks. This makes it atleast an interesting thought;) My contract on a CDMA network isn't up for another year, so maybe I'll be just in time for version 2 with wifi and multitouch and hopefully a more rectangular design:) |
| 05:58.59 | spikebik1 | cbpage er so does the ming |
| 05:59.26 | ozamosi | spikebik1: well... He didn't say it didn't... |
| 05:59.58 | spikebik1 | he implied it |
| 06:00.14 | spikebik1 | x has A and Y has Z |
| 06:00.24 | spikebik1 | implies X doesn't have Z |
| 06:01.30 | ozamosi | Sure he did. But he didn't Say so :) |
| 06:01.44 | ozamosi | Sorry. I'll go to school now, and leave you alone :) |
| 06:08.51 | cbpage | ming has only 320x240 - i looked |
| 06:08.59 | spikebik1 | yeah |
| 06:09.09 | spikebik1 | openmoko kicks ass on ram and pixels |
| 06:09.13 | spikebik1 | and openness ;-) |
| 06:09.15 | cbpage | i heard moto was making people use java stuff |
| 06:09.16 | cbpage | :) |
| 06:09.39 | spikebik1 | making no |
| 06:09.50 | cbpage | ok |
| 06:09.50 | spikebik1 | but they are making it the path of least resistance |
| 06:09.57 | cbpage | there's an sdk then? cool |
| 06:10.12 | spikebik1 | and that makes sense that it's not linux specific/larger market |
| 06:10.24 | spikebik1 | and they are pushing for standards for thigns like talking to bluetooth and GPS |
| 06:10.39 | spikebik1 | there is a gcc cross compiler, and source to much of the user space aps |
| 06:10.41 | spikebik1 | (and kernel) |
| 06:11.21 | spikebik1 | but there's no great documentation afaik for writing native aps, and there is a fair amount for the j2me side |
| 06:12.49 | cbpage | ahhh ok |
| 06:12.58 | cbpage | not locked out then - just obscure ;) |
| 06:13.25 | spikebik1 | I'm hoping the openmoko gets a java setup where most existing (large number of) java aps work |
| 06:13.37 | cbpage | i think that could happen now that j2me's gpl'd |
| 06:13.55 | spikebik1 | I heard sun gpl'd one of the javas, I wasn't sure it was j2me specifically |
| 06:14.58 | spikebik1 | and the other thing I was worrying about is that motorola licensed the java acceleration for the arm chip |
| 06:15.08 | spikebik1 | and that fic/openmoko wouldn't |
| 06:15.23 | spikebik1 | and that the openmoko would end up with a way slow java compared to other similar cell phones |
| 06:15.29 | spikebik1 | no idea if that is actually true or not. |
| 06:16.00 | spikebik1 | definitely scary... not that c isn't a good fallback |
| 06:18.28 | cbpage | does the s3c2410 even have java accel? |
| 06:21.26 | spikebik1 | I thought it did |
| 06:21.34 | spikebik1 | but looking at the spec sheet I don't see it mentioned |
| 06:21.48 | spikebik1 | maybe I was thinking of the nokia 770 |
| 06:22.11 | Tv | cbpage: java accell was mentioned as a feature of the next higher s3c* |
| 06:22.54 | spikebik1 | in any case |
| 06:23.13 | spikebik1 | I've heard that the chips with java acceleration often leave that aspect unused because it's expensive to license a JVM that uses it |
| 06:23.21 | spikebik1 | and I suspect the opensource j2me does not |
| 06:23.23 | cbpage | *nod* |
| 06:23.29 | cbpage | i bet arm licenses it out |
| 06:24.00 | spikebik1 | I'm hoping that java aps that work on random other cellphones can be made to work with the openmoko |
| 06:24.10 | spikebik1 | even if it's in a gross emulation mode that ignores most of the pixels |
| 06:24.33 | spikebik1 | since somewhere around zero of the cell phones out today have 480x640 |
| 06:24.35 | cbpage | perhaps - the problem is there's more than one version of said java apps to begin with |
| 06:24.57 | spikebik1 | true |
| 06:25.06 | spikebik1 | there are tweaks for the more popular phones |
| 06:25.19 | spikebik1 | I just want the openmoko to not be unusually incompatible with said code |
| 06:25.38 | spikebik1 | since there will only be 100's of openmoko phones in the near future and other phones are selling by the million |
| 06:28.32 | spikebik1 | I'm also scared that the sun j2me is unusable, and unrelated to the code running in most cellphones |
| 06:41.32 | *** join/#openmoko maxamillion (n=max@r74-192-178-37.htvlcmta01.hnvitx.tl.dh.suddenlink.net) |
| 06:42.21 | maxamillion | so ... the FIC smartphone that is supposed to come out soon (or might already be out and i am just living under a rock) what service providers will it be available for? |
| 06:46.01 | ozamosi | It's not out. It's a good old unlocked, uncrippled, normal GSM phone. |
| 06:46.07 | ozamosi | So, all, basicly |
| 06:47.30 | maxamillion | thank god ... i will await its release, and then buy one |
| 06:47.32 | spikebik1 | not all |
| 06:47.34 | spikebik1 | but all GSM |
| 06:47.45 | maxamillion | i'm on a GSM network :) |
| 06:49.13 | Psi | only thing im a little worried about is GSM networks intentionally setting their networks so the neo wont connect |
| 06:50.15 | maxamillion | i would throw the biggest fit any company has ever seen any customer throw |
| 06:50.45 | Psi | because of applications that could appear for the neo that allow a customer to do something for free that the network believes should be a pay service |
| 06:51.01 | cbpage | they can't lock out by phone model iirc |
| 06:51.16 | cbpage | verizon can because of the ESN system, but that's us-CDMA |
| 06:52.08 | sannes | cbpage: Isn't IMEI numbers given out in series for each manufactorer? |
| 06:52.17 | spikebik1 | um |
| 06:52.20 | cbpage | yeah but is it per model? |
| 06:52.23 | spikebik1 | unlocked phones are fairly common |
| 06:52.28 | cbpage | yeah they are :) |
| 06:52.41 | spikebik1 | and worst case you could switch carriers |
| 06:52.51 | spikebik1 | at least in the USA there is more than one gsm carrier to switch to |
| 06:53.02 | spikebik1 | especially since if you buy the phone you don't have to sign up for a 2 year contract |
| 06:53.57 | Psi | i was thinking about (for a future neo model with videocalling) using simulated videocalling to create a data link between two neos, one at home acting as a gateway to the internet. Thus giving my neo an unlimited data connection (its $3/m for unlimited videocalling here atm) |
| 06:54.09 | Psi | and as you can imagine, most phone companys would not like that |
| 06:54.45 | maxamillion | well thanks for the info ... i will be watching for the release :) |
| 06:54.46 | *** part/#openmoko maxamillion (n=max@r74-192-178-37.htvlcmta01.hnvitx.tl.dh.suddenlink.net) |
| 06:55.12 | spikebik1 | seems like video calling could well be lossless |
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| 07:34.58 | buz | so now we have pre-announcements of announcements |
| 07:35.39 | *** join/#openmoko eikonos (n=eikonos@S0106001310d36705.gv.shawcable.net) |
| 07:35.56 | CM | I'm hoping for early friday since he's in Taiwan :) |
| 07:37.34 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=rob_w@p549B9587.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 07:46.08 | xkr47 | aloril, :D |
| 07:46.32 | xkr47 | CM, that's more like saturdayish :) |
| 07:48.16 | CM | xkr47: Why? They're like +8h compared to GMT |
| 07:49.21 | CM | So 10 where I am (Sweden) would be 16.00 or 17.00 in Taiwan |
| 07:49.32 | CM | (Don't know if they have any daylight savings time) |
| 07:50.27 | xkr47 | ah right |
| 07:50.29 | xkr47 | sorry |
| 07:50.34 | xkr47 | just got to work *sleeping* |
| 07:50.57 | CM | Same here, np. I'm just impatient and curious about the announcement |
| 07:59.47 | buz | i wonder if preliminary specs of v2 and maybe even v3 will be included |
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| 08:05.32 | CM | I'm guessing v2 will be mentioned, but it's just speculations of course |
| 08:08.55 | wabz | was this on the announce list? |
| 08:09.32 | CM | Nothing on that one yet |
| 08:12.05 | spikebik1 | yeah seems sane that they will talk about v2 |
| 08:12.12 | spikebik1 | or maybe even cancel v1 |
| 08:12.26 | CM | naa... That I don't think |
| 08:12.39 | spikebik1 | I hope not, but I knwo the v2 hardware is relatively close |
| 08:12.49 | spikebik1 | i.e. happening in parallel not dependent on v1 being finished |
| 08:12.59 | spikebik1 | after all the hardware isn't linux specific and is used for a windows phone |
| 08:13.06 | CM | Yes, but the hw for v1 will be produced anyway |
| 08:13.19 | CM | Didn't they already have some big order for china or so? |
| 08:14.56 | spikebik1 | well at some point if there's another show stopper in the v1 then it might make sense to switch |
| 08:15.18 | rob_w | hmm looking at the number of people here in hte chat its quite a buzz , even if nothing is released .. that tells me markets can demand linux preshipped phones |
| 08:15.33 | spikebik1 | sure |
| 08:15.45 | spikebik1 | there's been some press, the iphone was great pr for openmoko |
| 08:15.52 | spikebik1 | validation of the design |
| 08:16.01 | spikebik1 | and a large contrast (completely closed vs completely open) |
| 08:22.28 | *** join/#openmoko summatusmentis (n=summatus@72.168.202.219) |
| 08:22.58 | *** join/#openmoko jserv2 (n=jserv@linux3.cc.ntu.edu.tw) |
| 08:23.51 | aloril | xkr47: when I looked at LDO page at wikipedia it had marking speak about some website instead of actual its current LDO disambiguation page ;-) |
| 08:24.57 | *** join/#openmoko greentux (n=lemke@ip-217-18-181-130.static.reverse.dsi.net) |
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| 08:47.14 | dilinger | heh, wow. 128MB of sdram |
| 08:47.39 | dilinger | that's as much as olpc's xo laptops have |
| 08:47.50 | Tv | compare screens too ;) |
| 08:47.52 | xorAxAx | yeah :) |
| 08:48.12 | CM | 64mb flash is a bit tight though.. |
| 08:48.26 | dilinger | CM: yea, that's what i was thinking.. |
| 08:48.33 | dilinger | microsd should alleviate that a bit |
| 08:48.42 | CM | I know there sd, but what if i'd like to put some music on it? |
| 08:49.03 | Tv | get flat rate gprs and build system that buffers just the next 10MB over it |
| 08:49.04 | CM | I'm having 950mb mp3's on my k750 now |
| 08:49.09 | Tv | ;) |
| 08:49.24 | CM | With 3G flatrate that would work fine |
| 08:49.29 | *** join/#openmoko mikesh (n=mikesh@x133.net.upc.cz) |
| 08:53.02 | dilinger | what's the cpu going to be? |
| 08:53.48 | dilinger | it looks like the samsung s3c2410 supports amm92x, amm1020, and amm1024 |
| 08:55.13 | hrw | dilinger: ? |
| 08:55.15 | dilinger | oh, i see. assuming i'm looking at the right page, looks like an amm920t/arm926ejs clocked at 200mhz? |
| 08:55.37 | hrw | dilinger: s3c2410 is cpu |
| 08:56.05 | hrw | arm920t family iirc |
| 08:56.43 | dilinger | ok. i was looking at the s3c2410 board page |
| 08:57.08 | dilinger | neat, thanks |
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| 09:22.00 | hrw | http://englishrussia.com/images/iphone.jpg |
| 09:28.39 | yacc | Tv: GPRS is a little bit slow. Typically mp3 streams have at least 128kbit/s => 16KB/s, and GPRS usually just fetches 5KB/s. So your buffer would run dry quite quickly :( |
| 09:32.53 | *** join/#openmoko Shiv_ (n=tm@home.e-life.fr) |
| 09:32.58 | Shiv_ | hi all |
| 09:36.36 | *** join/#openmoko unique (n=unique@ip43071.stuwe.fh-schmalkalden.de) |
| 09:39.47 | *** join/#openmoko Denton_sk (n=denton@adsl-dyn181.91-127-66.t-com.sk) |
| 09:46.47 | aloril | get battery powered usb disk -> plenty of space |
| 09:47.43 | *** join/#openmoko Sencer (i=Sencer@gateway/tor/x-62889c17baf5e802) |
| 09:52.25 | CM | yacc: I've done som sip-based voip a few years ago. What about it? |
| 09:52.58 | yacc | CM: I just wondered if I can connect to one account at sipgate from different DSL connections at the same time. |
| 09:53.10 | *** join/#openmoko gcorriga (n=gcorriga@host215-85-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 09:53.22 | yacc | CM: google-ing seems to confirm that, but also indicates that it's depends upon the provider. |
| 09:53.24 | CM | That should be fine |
| 09:53.30 | CM | Yes, exactly |
| 09:53.55 | CM | Wrote a sip-proxy for Ericsson as a part of my masters thesis |
| 09:54.52 | yacc | CM: What exactly does a sip-proxy? |
| 09:56.07 | gcorriga | hello all. |
| 09:57.04 | CM | yacc: Basically NAT:ing sip-calls |
| 09:57.36 | yacc | Ok, so on the client side, we've got a SIP phone, then potentially a SIP-proxy, and what is on the other side? |
| 09:57.44 | xkr47 | yacc, FYI there are (at least) 4 different types of SIP proxies |
| 09:58.07 | CM | We needed it to connect through the firewall to the 3G-GSN and to route the video calls, reroute them, clone streams and save all calls |
| 09:58.07 | xkr47 | yacc, a sip phone, or another proxy or similar :) |
| 09:58.34 | yacc | Ok, so what do provides like sipgate provide? |
| 09:58.34 | *** join/#openmoko SilverWolf (n=SilverWo@89.233.2.103) |
| 09:59.07 | CM | I don't know what sipgate provides |
| 10:00.30 | yacc | Well, they allow you to call out, but I'm trying to understand the different parts. |
| 10:00.55 | yacc | call out to traditional phones. And call in from the traditional network. |
| 10:03.32 | *** join/#openmoko vosen (n=v0@86-63-84-163.asta-net.com.pl) |
| 10:05.58 | *** join/#openmoko parag0n (n=parag0n@popeshoe.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 10:10.47 | yacc | Now, I just find out if I can just cancel the ISDN service from DTAG, without endangering my DSL connection, *wonder* |
| 10:12.56 | *** join/#openmoko fabiim (n=balayhas@a213-22-211-185.cpe.netcabo.pt) |
| 10:13.55 | gcorriga | I have a question on shipping. When I buy my Neo1973, will it ship from Taiwan, or will Fic have a distributor here in Europe? |
| 10:14.09 | gcorriga | I ask because of import taxes. |
| 10:14.15 | aloril | yes to later |
| 10:15.26 | aloril | ie.. there will be distributor in EU |
| 10:15.38 | aloril | (according to 2 mails in mailing list) |
| 10:17.15 | CM | libervisco: Noticed that your article showed up on OSNews: http://osnews.com/story.php/16968/Forget-iPhone-Hail-OpenMoko-the-True-Revolution/ |
| 10:17.30 | CM | Some uninformed comments there though |
| 10:18.22 | gcorriga | aloril: thanks, I unsubscribed from the mailing list due to lack of time to read it. |
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| 11:10.44 | xorAxAx | 12:09:19 < pedronis> on a mostly out of topic note, also Apple is going to be contributing to the llvm arm backend now |
| 11:10.47 | xorAxAx | 12:09:33 < mwh> iPhone is arm, or something? |
| 11:10.50 | xorAxAx | 12:09:33 < pedronis> I wonder why :) |
| 11:10.54 | xorAxAx | 12:09:39 < pedronis> I think so |
| 11:11.45 | xorAxAx | cf. http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.compilers.llvm.devel/6142 |
| 11:11.53 | *** join/#openmoko ciastek (n=ciastek@procent.miedzylesie.waw.pl) |
| 11:12.51 | *** part/#openmoko gcorriga (n=gcorriga@host215-85-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 11:19.54 | *** join/#openmoko kabturek (n=kabturek@lomza2.lom.vectranet.pl) |
| 11:21.13 | kabturek | uuu roadmap |
| 11:21.27 | *** part/#openmoko Denton_sk (n=denton@adsl-dyn181.91-127-66.t-com.sk) |
| 11:21.33 | xorAxAx | 12:19:32 < pedronis> suppose so, it's interesting the overlap between the iPhone and the nokia 770 |
| 11:21.36 | xorAxAx | 12:19:49 < pedronis> although the latter is not a phone and is less pricey |
| 11:21.44 | xorAxAx | 12:18:21 < mwh> i guess "Rafael and Lauro" are the nokia people? |
| 11:22.48 | *** join/#openmoko terrex (n=terrex@84-122-63-17.onocable.ono.com) |
| 11:22.51 | xorAxAx | openmoko uses arm as well, right? |
| 11:25.22 | hrw|work | yes |
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| 11:28.37 | xorAxAx | how good is gcc's arm backend? |
| 11:28.43 | xorAxAx | hrw|work: do you know? |
| 11:28.53 | hrw|work | iirc good |
| 11:31.08 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=rob_w@p549B9587.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 11:31.46 | xorAxAx | but then there is the question, why do nokia and apple resort to llvm? |
| 11:32.06 | hrw|work | llvm? |
| 11:32.41 | Stephmw | xorAxAx: I wouldn't make the assumption they chose it for a specific reason other than 'because' |
| 11:33.06 | xorAxAx | Stephmw: but that would be unwise economically |
| 11:33.29 | xorAxAx | why do you put 2x2 people on that architecture to complete the backend for a particular arch |
| 11:33.41 | Stephmw | ... because they wanted to? |
| 11:33.47 | xorAxAx | Stephmw: yes, but why? :) |
| 11:34.01 | Stephmw | xorAxAx: call it a hobby of the devs |
| 11:34.06 | *** join/#openmoko ValiSystM (n=ValiSyst@81.56.207.165) |
| 11:34.16 | xorAxAx | Stephmw: they are paid to do it |
| 11:34.25 | xorAxAx | its not a hobby |
| 11:35.02 | Stephmw | xorAxAx: I work in a similar environment to these guys, and 'logic' and 'cost' < 'politics' and 'selective lobying' |
| 11:35.10 | xorAxAx | hrw|work: a system to run arch-independant code on many platforms, with JIT and optimsiations |
| 11:36.11 | xorAxAx | 12:35:06 < pedronis> I think one issue id that apple was a bit unhappy with gcc on the ppc |
| 11:36.16 | xorAxAx | 12:35:48 < pedronis> I think they want more direct control over their overall performance |
| 11:36.47 | xorAxAx | 12:36:20 < pedronis> and getting gcc where you want it do be doesn't look the easiest thing os politics wise |
| 11:36.53 | xorAxAx | Stephmw: thats your point, right? :) |
| 11:38.05 | *** part/#openmoko thos (n=thomas@orion.thos.me.uk) |
| 11:38.41 | Stephmw | xorAxAx: no, I really completely omitted the technical aspect - they're not as highly weighted as the internal politics of the company |
| 11:39.19 | Stephmw | xorAxAx: you'll have to take it on faith :) |
| 11:39.29 | Stephmw | xorAxAx: too many NDAs with my name on them |
| 11:39.34 | xorAxAx | yes, but internal politics may have realised that integration into gcc is harder than pushing stuff into llvm |
| 11:41.01 | *** join/#openmoko florian_kc (n=fuchs@217.146.132.69) |
| 11:41.04 | florian_kc | hi all |
| 11:41.22 | koen | xorAxAx: nokia is using gcc for their linux stuff |
| 11:41.49 | xorAxAx | koen: yeah, they have to because llvm is not ready for prime time yet in that context |
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| 11:50.42 | the | Hi ... I have a simple question: why would Neo1973 have USB 1.1 only? |
| 11:50.58 | parag0n | because usb2 would cost more |
| 11:51.14 | *** join/#openmoko ninHer (n=ninHer@unaffiliated/ninher) |
| 11:51.22 | parag0n | the SoC that it uses probably has usb1.1 support built into it already |
| 11:51.51 | parag0n | they'll just be bringing it to the outside, unlike other phone manufacturers who would hide it |
| 11:52.15 | the | sure ... I appreciate that ;-) |
| 11:52.48 | the | another one ... what "early access" means? ... or ... when would I be able to buy one? |
| 11:54.29 | parag0n | it probably means people who are highly likely to develop stuff for it |
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| 12:25.32 | the | parag0n: ok, thanks! |
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| 12:50.18 | rboehme | how does the 1973's screen size compare to a Treo 600? |
| 12:51.05 | mikesh | hi, do somebody know, how much costs post, send openmoko from FIC factory to europe union? |
| 12:51.39 | Sencer | the neo will be distributed from within the EU to EU countries, according to a post to the mailing list. |
| 12:52.49 | ninHer | i am going to wait until wifi is deployed in it |
| 12:53.56 | mikesh | Sencer: yes, but how much it will cost? |
| 12:54.09 | Sencer | it hasn't been announced |
| 12:55.05 | ninHer | about 300 $ |
| 12:55.56 | Sencer | the _device_ was said to cost 350 US$. But shipping etc. has not been announced. |
| 12:56.13 | mikesh | Sencer: ok, thanks |
| 12:56.58 | Sencer | I assume that there may be more information in the friday announcement |
| 12:57.44 | *** join/#openmoko Ryushin (i=proxy@windwalker.openinnovations.com) |
| 13:03.38 | aevin | Sencer: is that for the model without the V8? ;-) |
| 13:04.22 | aevin | Sencer: has there been annouced there'll be a friday announcement? |
| 13:04.31 | Vegar | topic |
| 13:04.49 | *** join/#openmoko Rac0r (n=Rac0r@p54AA6D38.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 13:04.55 | Sencer | what Vegar said^^ |
| 13:05.25 | aevin | ahh :) it was too long too show up entirely in irssi |
| 13:05.39 | aevin | interesting:) |
| 13:05.48 | aevin | *catch up on the ML* |
| 13:06.27 | *** join/#openmoko Rac0r (n=Rac0r@p54AA54FD.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 13:07.19 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (i=foobar@dslb-084-057-147-060.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 13:17.58 | *** join/#openmoko d0tslash_ (i=dotslash@217-68-170-38.dynamic.primacom.net) |
| 13:23.45 | *** join/#openmoko meyerm_ (n=meyerm@p549875CA.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 13:25.53 | aevin | any rumors about the ML suggestion of giving buyers of Neo v1 a discount for buying v2, or will we have to wait until friday... ? |
| 13:26.46 | aevin | it kind of seemed like sean mp found the idea intersting/considerable according to his reply... |
| 13:26.59 | *** join/#openmoko darmou (n=darmou@ppp194-244.lns3.mel4.internode.on.net) |
| 13:27.28 | Sencer | aevin: who do you suggest should carry the cost? |
| 13:27.48 | aevin | i think it would be a great idea to get more devs for v1, avoiding too many to wait for v2 before buying |
| 13:28.24 | aevin | Sencer: the v2 buyers that dont buy v1 |
| 13:28.36 | Sencer | aevin: I think it's much more sensible to simply sell the v1 device. I am sure there will still be enough developers interested in it, even if there is a v2 (which will undoubtedly be more expensive) |
| 13:29.06 | Sencer | aevin: So, the device should be made more expensive to the general public, so that developers that buy both devices can get it cheaper? |
| 13:30.44 | aevin | Sencer: I/the customers dont know what FIC's margins are. I am not saying there should be a huge discount, but I think it's an interesting idea. At least it makes v1 more attractive. |
| 13:31.28 | aevin | but , as you say, maybe they'll consider v1 more than attractive enough to get the attention of enough devs without subsidizing v2 for v1 buers |
| 13:31.33 | aevin | *buyers |
| 13:32.38 | aevin | Sencer: do you think FIC will sell v1 with ~ 0 margin, to make the foundation for future successes with community software for v2, v3, v4 etc? |
| 13:32.43 | Sencer | considering the hardware and the likely numbers, the v1 is already very cheap. IMHO. |
| 13:32.49 | buz | i doubt the current price is at cost |
| 13:32.53 | Sencer | aevin: No, I don't think so. |
| 13:33.48 | LaF0rge | sencer/buz/aevin: we're currently preparing an annoucement, which among others, addresses this |
| 13:34.04 | LaF0rge | just be patient for one or two more days until that announcement is out |
| 13:34.36 | aevin | Sencer: yes, i think v1 is cheap too, but i guess some people is not planning to buy a new phone only after 6 months (or whatever) when the v2 comes out, and because of this, they rather wait for the v2 (or later) |
| 13:34.37 | Sencer | cool :) |
| 13:35.03 | Sencer | aevin: that doesn't sound like the geeks I know ^^ |
| 13:35.08 | buz | supposedly a moto q costs about 120$ to<make |
| 13:35.58 | buz | LaF0rge: speculating not allowed? |
| 13:36.10 | buz | (it's not like we go about telling people we know anything for fact ;) |
| 13:36.34 | aevin | Sencer: maybe your right. if you're not geek enough to upgrade to v2, then you're considered that you probably wont contribute much by buying v1... ? |
| 13:36.55 | buz | aevin: even testers can help a lot |
| 13:37.07 | aevin | buz: yes, I just wanted to speculate :) |
| 13:37.21 | aevin | buz: true |
| 13:37.40 | buz | i had that very discussion with some kde devs a few days back |
| 13:38.14 | buz | they said that they gladly help users installing kde4 when they are genuinely interested in testing and reporting bugs |
| 13:38.17 | aevin | what discussion? the value of testers? |
| 13:38.23 | buz | yes |
| 13:38.25 | aevin | ah, okay:) |
| 13:38.59 | buz | i make my decision when i see the roadmap |
| 13:39.17 | buz | here's to hoping it will contain approximate hardware specs |
| 13:40.30 | Sencer | buz: The Moto Q cost 120$ to make? Do you remember where you learned/hear/read that? |
| 13:40.41 | buz | lemme google |
| 13:40.42 | sannes | I know I will get both v1 and v2 :) .. just don't know when yet.. hehe (well february obviously..) |
| 13:41.00 | buz | http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/20/2336244 |
| 13:41.09 | Sencer | buz: thanks |
| 13:41.10 | *** join/#openmoko Ntemis (n=ntemis@cpe-90793.ip.primehome.com) |
| 13:41.20 | buz | oh wait |
| 13:41.30 | buz | the Q is 150 the blackberry is about 120 |
| 13:41.34 | Ntemis | hello |
| 13:41.35 | buz | still, both should be cheaper by now |
| 13:41.44 | aevin | hi Ntemis |
| 13:41.49 | Ntemis | :) |
| 13:41.56 | Ntemis | some info please |
| 13:42.13 | Ntemis | will not have wifi? |
| 13:42.20 | buz | see topic |
| 13:42.28 | Sencer | <PROTECTED> |
| 13:42.29 | Sencer | <PROTECTED> |
| 13:42.31 | Ntemis | i saw it |
| 13:42.32 | Sencer | <PROTECTED> |
| 13:42.37 | Sencer | <PROTECTED> |
| 13:43.03 | Ntemis | will be other version that will have those fitures? |
| 13:43.13 | Ntemis | fituares |
| 13:43.25 | Sencer | of course... at some point |
| 13:43.45 | Ntemis | i will whait for it then |
| 13:44.16 | Ntemis | the phone is using the standard linux kernel or something? |
| 13:44.28 | Ntemis | deb? or rpm? |
| 13:44.41 | Sencer | is there any platform known, that says there will never be a device with wifi for it? |
| 13:44.53 | Tv | Sencer: C-64. |
| 13:44.56 | buz | palm os |
| 13:45.31 | buz | the kernel cant really handle it |
| 13:46.08 | Ntemis | so not linux based just open sourced |
| 13:46.10 | Ntemis | right |
| 13:46.25 | buz | sure its linux based |
| 13:46.40 | Sencer | buz: really? I remember reading some different. * a quick google later * http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cache:PEDBvcOfEVYJ:www.palmsource.com/press/2004/092804_cobalt.html+palm+os+wifi&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4 |
| 13:47.03 | Tv | you are confusing what "it" points to |
| 13:47.04 | buz | cobalt was never released was it |
| 13:47.38 | Ntemis | can the phone work glabally? |
| 13:47.42 | Ntemis | globally |
| 13:47.51 | Tv | sure |
| 13:47.56 | Tv | quad-band gsm |
| 13:48.04 | Tv | costs like shit to roam, though |
| 13:48.16 | Ntemis | can it be shipped to cyprus? |
| 13:48.41 | Sencer | buz: I concede that point ^^ |
| 13:49.50 | Ntemis | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus |
| 13:50.03 | koen | see topic |
| 13:50.19 | koen | unless cypress isn't in 'the world' |
| 13:50.41 | parag0n | I Demand to have one shipped to my MoonBase |
| 13:50.41 | Ntemis | ok thanks |
| 13:50.51 | Ntemis | :0 |
| 13:50.54 | Sencer | you don't really want to start any political duscissions... *G* |
| 13:50.54 | Ntemis | :) |
| 13:51.39 | *** join/#openmoko vargr (n=vargr@dsl092-109-027.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 13:51.44 | Ntemis | we excist in the world |
| 13:51.48 | Ntemis | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:EU_location_CYP.png |
| 13:51.53 | Ntemis | :) |
| 13:51.59 | Ntemis | maybe small |
| 13:52.37 | buz | taiwanese company wouldnt mind |
| 13:52.43 | buz | taiwan doesnt exist according to some, either |
| 13:53.02 | Ntemis | how much it will cost to buy that phone? |
| 13:53.09 | Obscure^ | Ntemis: not as small as malta ;) |
| 13:53.30 | Ntemis | yes is smaller than malta |
| 13:53.30 | *** join/#openmoko Matt_H (n=chatzill@209.198.66.141) |
| 13:53.45 | Ntemis | we only have tha half of it |
| 13:53.53 | Ntemis | the |
| 13:54.14 | Ntemis | other one is occupied by turkish forces |
| 13:54.51 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (i=foobar@dslb-084-057-147-060.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 13:59.36 | leventhal | Uh huh |
| 14:00.41 | xkr47 | does that mean like "right on" ?-) |
| 14:00.51 | xkr47 | or more like "you're crazy" |
| 14:01.14 | Stephmw | means keep talking... |
| 14:01.19 | Stephmw | ... while we get a safe distance away |
| 14:02.46 | leventhal | Means "i got idle looking at wireless usb and wondering if i can keep a wifi dongle in my jacket while my phone is on my waist" |
| 14:04.13 | leventhal | I'm thinking it won't be feasible since wireless usb also uses 2.4ghz |
| 14:06.02 | Sketch | you can do that with bluetooth... |
| 14:06.28 | *** part/#openmoko jaroug (n=jaroug@scylla.sysif.net) |
| 14:06.46 | leventhal | yeah. is there a bluetooth to wifi bridge in the works? |
| 14:07.00 | Sketch | :) |
| 14:07.38 | Sketch | even if they are both 2.4ghz you can probably set one of them to use a different channel |
| 14:08.37 | leventhal | well. I'd have to set the wireless dongle to use the channel that the AP is on, and try to make the bridge use a different one. but it's moot since i can't seem to find a commercially available one. and that's what happens when i only read the headlines on slashdot |
| 14:10.17 | leventhal | now, if i could find a little device to connect to the municipal wifi and then pair with the phone over BT.. that would rule |
| 14:14.40 | *** join/#openmoko Thandar (n=Thandar@cpc3-clif2-0-0-cust23.nott.cable.ntl.com) |
| 14:15.30 | leventhal | hmm.. interesting.. cryptophone makes their source available |
| 14:20.13 | Sencer | for review |
| 14:21.00 | leventhal | right |
| 14:22.21 | |Melkman| | lol, neo cryptophone... If only we can get to the digital speech path. Will be a bad day for Nah6 then though.. |
| 14:22.47 | *** join/#openmoko den-ros (n=Den@86.111.18.50) |
| 14:24.56 | leventhal | the cryptophone folks will probably make a package for openmoko if they see a few copies being used^H^H^H^H reviewed on neo1973s |
| 14:25.41 | *** join/#openmoko florian_kc (n=fuchs@217.146.132.69) |
| 14:29.29 | *** part/#openmoko Laibsch (n=Laibsch@R76ce.r.ppp-pool.de) |
| 14:29.46 | aevin | :) |
| 14:31.04 | mickeyl | morning |
| 14:32.13 | meyerm | Morning? Where are you ;-) Erm, good morning, too :) |
| 14:32.37 | mickeyl | LaF0rge: morning. Back to Frankfurt I had 3 out of 4 hours GPRS w/ BASE without too many connections droppings. was good at least for ksirc and lynx. |
| 14:32.45 | mickeyl | meyerm: local time is irrelevant :) |
| 14:32.46 | mickeyl | ~ugt |
| 14:32.47 | apt | from memory, ugt is Universial Greeting Time. Created in #mipslinux, it is a rule that states that whenever somebody enters an IRC channel it is always morning, and it is always late when the person leaves. The local time of any other people in the channel, including the greeter, is irrelevant. http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html |
| 14:32.52 | meyerm | mickeyl: OK, accepted ;) |
| 14:33.15 | meyerm | apt: :-D |
| 14:33.16 | apt | methinks -d is for debugging, makes the server more verbosewith each -d |
| 14:33.36 | *** join/#openmoko Vestan_Pance (n=mathall@colbert-ext.lid.theveniceproject.com) |
| 14:34.05 | koen | mickeyl: and mail :) |
| 14:34.13 | mickeyl | yeah |
| 14:36.09 | *** join/#openmoko florian_ (n=fuchs@dns.kernelconcepts.de) |
| 14:36.28 | LaF0rge | mickeyl: ah, thta gprs experience sounds more like the one i usually have |
| 14:36.30 | *** join/#openmoko florian_ (n=fuchs@dns.kernelconcepts.de) |
| 14:36.52 | *** part/#openmoko Vestan_Pance (n=mathall@colbert-ext.lid.theveniceproject.com) |
| 14:39.49 | *** join/#openmoko florian (n=fuchs@dns.kernelconcepts.de) |
| 14:47.07 | *** join/#openmoko unique (n=unique@ip43071.stuwe.fh-schmalkalden.de) |
| 14:49.49 | *** join/#openmoko jthomas (n=jthomas@hotel.sierrabravo.net) |
| 14:53.12 | hrw|work | ~summon announcement |
| 14:53.15 | apt | apt takes out 20 clean, identical-looking phones, some extra hands, and pretends to be a telemarketer for a large corporation, so he gets delivered a phonelist containing announcement's coordinates |
| 14:53.15 | hrw|work | ;D |
| 14:55.39 | mickeyl | hehehe |
| 14:56.01 | *** join/#openmoko l4rs (n=laprican@hsiproxy.astra-net.com) |
| 15:00.32 | *** join/#openmoko summatusmentis (n=summatus@72.168.202.219) |
| 15:07.35 | *** join/#openmoko amarsh04 (n=amarsh04@124.178.200.87) |
| 15:08.08 | *** join/#openmoko Zer0Her0_ (n=Z@17.232.17.195) |
| 15:08.16 | *** join/#openmoko prpplague (n=dave@12.190.41.146) |
| 15:08.20 | Zer0Her0_ | Neo1973 keeps getting more and more press :-D |
| 15:08.37 | mickeyl | yeah, it's unbelievable |
| 15:09.37 | Zer0Her0_ | very exciting |
| 15:10.31 | noidd | Now, if only we had a few pictures of the real thing :-) |
| 15:10.38 | prpplague | some new articles? url? |
| 15:10.51 | Zer0Her0_ | true, or the source so we can take a peak of how far long it is ;) |
| 15:11.01 | Zer0Her0_ | http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/smartphones/openmoko-smartphone-did-they-have-a-time-machine-or-what-229243.php |
| 15:11.11 | Zer0Her0_ | same ol same ol |
| 15:11.17 | Zer0Her0_ | but more press is a good thing :) |
| 15:11.29 | mickeyl | now that's a cool article |
| 15:11.39 | meyerm | Has anybody of the devs here (Michael? :-) ) already some experience with syncing with kdepim-programs? Especially my adressbook always got "damaged" (multiple entries etc.) when syncing between KDE/Palm/Phone/Zaurus... |
| 15:11.40 | mickeyl | title, at least |
| 15:12.22 | Zer0Her0_ | yea, the article is your basic gadget blog affair though |
| 15:12.24 | mickeyl | i'm afraid I am a no-PIM guy. I really want to use PIM apps on a mobile device, but I didn't find any good on Linux-based PDAs yet. I'm sure OpenMoko will change that. |
| 15:12.52 | meyerm | mickeyl: hopefully! :) |
| 15:13.39 | hrw|work | mickeyl: will it be possible to create iphone like theme for openmoko? |
| 15:13.56 | Zer0Her0_ | hrw|work: is it possible to be sued by apple ;) |
| 15:14.31 | hrw|work | Zer0Her0_: what if I will create theme and does not provide it for other people? :D |
| 15:15.24 | mickeyl | hrw|work: anything is possible, however changing the theme won't be possible without a) a good designer submitting lots of high quality images, b) touching the code. don't tell me about gtkrc.. Gtk+'s theming capabilities are not perfect |
| 15:15.33 | prpplague | hrw|work: morning |
| 15:15.46 | Zer0Her0_ | hrw|work: true |
| 15:16.00 | hrw|work | mickeyl: I know what you think about gtkrc ;D |
| 15:16.03 | hrw|work | hi prpplague |
| 15:19.46 | mickeyl | hmm 163 people in the channel |
| 15:20.05 | stefan_schmidt | mickem: Time to reach >=200 |
| 15:20.08 | mickeyl | ya |
| 15:20.14 | Zer0Her0_ | more then olpc and almost as many as maemo ;) |
| 15:20.26 | stefan_schmidt | Perhaps after the announcement on friday. ;) |
| 15:20.36 | mickeyl | or less ;) |
| 15:20.43 | stefan_schmidt | ups |
| 15:20.57 | mickeyl | no, just kidding. the announcement contains mostly positive news |
| 15:21.05 | stefan_schmidt | good |
| 15:21.09 | CM | Mostly, hmm.. |
| 15:21.28 | stefan_schmidt | mickeyl: Can I get a milk in my Lunchbox? ;) |
| 15:21.50 | mickeyl | stefan_schmidt: i'm afraid it's already fully loaded. there's not much more space for food |
| 15:22.18 | stefan_schmidt | mickeyl: It's ok, when the stuff is better then food. :) |
| 15:22.29 | mickeyl | it is |
| 15:22.36 | stefan_schmidt | :) |
| 15:22.43 | mickeyl | real picture, no rendering |
| 15:22.44 | mickeyl | :) |
| 15:22.47 | stefan_schmidt | heh |
| 15:24.29 | stefan_schmidt | mickeyl: Nice case? /me loves nice cases. :) |
| 15:24.52 | hrw|work | mickeyl: does it include jtag cable? |
| 15:25.57 | mickeyl | who wants to breakfast a jtag cable? ;) |
| 15:26.23 | hrw|work | mickeyl: it can be sweet |
| 15:27.16 | mickeyl | hehe |
| 15:27.31 | mickeyl | yeah, hackers will probably have a usage for jtag |
| 15:29.44 | noidd | jtag shiny |
| 15:31.08 | noidd | it also means that should we accidentally brick our devices we can unbrick it |
| 15:31.09 | noidd | heh |
| 15:33.16 | prpplague | hehe, yea, i'll definetly be replacing the bootload with apex, not real fond of uboot |
| 15:38.12 | *** join/#openmoko amarsh05 (n=amarsh04@138.217.213.250) |
| 15:40.49 | buz | meyerm: addressbook gets damaged because opensync's kdepim module is totally broken |
| 15:41.29 | buz | (been there, will be a while until i touch that thing again) |
| 15:41.55 | buz | the p900, as i figured out after that, actually can send all contacts as a giant VCF file |
| 15:42.01 | buz | moko should do that too |
| 15:42.07 | buz | (over bluetooth that is) |
| 15:42.15 | meyerm | buz: I worked with kpilot, kmobiletools, later kitchensync... a mess ;-). But I hope everything gets better with KDE 4 |
| 15:42.41 | hrw|work | kdepim suxx when it comes to syncing |
| 15:42.55 | hrw|work | it does not know such thing as syncing at all |
| 15:42.59 | buz | i think opensync is not much related to kde |
| 15:43.02 | benJIman | There is a new kitchensync |
| 15:43.14 | buz | yes newest kitchensync is using opensync |
| 15:43.28 | buz | now i hope akonadi might eventually end up on a phone... |
| 15:43.38 | hrw|work | buz: it suxx less |
| 15:43.41 | hrw|work | but still suxx |
| 15:43.49 | buz | definitely |
| 15:43.51 | hrw|work | I synced kdepim <> k750i phone |
| 15:43.53 | buz | now at least it deletes data |
| 15:44.02 | buz | (even such it shouldnt) |
| 15:44.08 | hrw|work | then I removed 200 EMPTY contacts from phone BY HAND |
| 15:44.13 | buz | which may or may not be more than before when it didnt do anything at all |
| 15:44.14 | *** join/#openmoko vigilant^ (n=abcd@cs.uku.fi) |
| 15:45.05 | meyerm | Hmm... akonadi directly on the phone. That sounds interesting. |
| 15:45.31 | buz | not bloody likely to happen at the moment |
| 15:45.37 | buz | needs qt on the phone first |
| 15:45.48 | buz | besides i dont think akonadi is anywhere like ready |
| 15:45.53 | aloril | records: 106 2006-12-04; 108 2006-12-07; 109 2006-12-12; 114 2006-12-13; 116 2006-12-20; 134 2007-01-11; 141 2007-01-12; 143 2007-01-13; 157 2007-01-15; 163 2007-01-16 ; 165 <1h ago |
| 15:46.43 | hrw|work | aloril: ? |
| 15:47.10 | CM | ppl in the channel I guess |
| 15:47.11 | aloril | <nicks on channel> <day>; * |
| 15:48.04 | CM | As soon as that announcement is out I'll try to spread the news more |
| 15:48.08 | Sencer | at this rate, in 2094 every earth creature will be sitting in this channel. Twice. |
| 15:48.14 | CM | Hehe |
| 15:49.02 | meyerm | buz: akonadi is really dependant on QT? I _thought_ (<- = no clue ;-) ) it is independant so it can be included into other software. |
| 15:49.27 | benJIman | It's Qt not QT |
| 15:49.50 | buz | i'd be surprised if it didnt at least require qt, if not even kdelibs |
| 15:49.54 | buz | could be wrong tho |
| 15:50.41 | benJIman | There's no reason Qt couldn't run on the openmoko is there? |
| 15:52.17 | noidd | no reason at all |
| 15:52.27 | noidd | it just isn't the default widgetset |
| 15:53.22 | benJIman | Qt is split up anyway, you don't have to install the gui stuff |
| 15:54.41 | buz | no reason besides ram and storage consumption |
| 15:54.50 | buz | and possible gtk zealotry of course |
| 15:59.07 | hrw|work | and license |
| 15:59.46 | noidd | is there still a license issue with QT? |
| 16:00.53 | aloril | closed source program need to play for license ;-) |
| 16:00.57 | hrw|work | commercial stuff using QT need to pay |
| 16:01.31 | *** join/#openmoko ycheng (n=ycheng@220.130.184.102) |
| 16:03.15 | Sencer | fyi: http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/16/1-in-8-blokes-would-swap-their-lady-for-a-must-have-gadget/ |
| 16:03.24 | Sencer | I wonder what the rate is in this channel currently |
| 16:04.05 | *** join/#openmoko Remowylliams (n=Mare@71.16.217.178) |
| 16:04.28 | buz | that would have to be a lot more than a frigging hdtv |
| 16:04.35 | buz | think 50ft yacht maybe |
| 16:04.54 | buz | which then in turn one can use to get new girls |
| 16:05.07 | Remowylliams | And they call this thing comparable? I bet it doesn't even connect to Itunes. (*grin*) Just joking. Hello everyone |
| 16:05.11 | Sencer | ^^ |
| 16:05.52 | buz | thank god it needs no itunes |
| 16:07.06 | Remowylliams | I really like that this thing is suppose to have GPS but that it's missing 802.11b/g is definitely a downer. |
| 16:07.28 | Sencer | that new iProduct is supposed to be totally cool. I wonder what it'll actually do. |
| 16:07.38 | buz | ROOOOOFL |
| 16:08.40 | vargr | The iPhone's most important feature - |
| 16:08.43 | buz | steve has shown that operating a cult is not only very lucrative (we knew that for a while) but also very hip |
| 16:08.49 | vargr | is that it protects users from independent programmers. |
| 16:09.30 | Remowylliams | I'm very sad that Cisco lost it's TM on iPhone. I would have loved to have seen the battle. |
| 16:09.40 | Matt_H | Is Steve into Scientology ....He runs Apple like a Scientologist |
| 16:10.10 | *** join/#openmoko cephdon (n=cephdon@71.237.227.79) |
| 16:10.45 | Remowylliams | Can someone tell me what the data rate is with Bt 2.0 EDR? |
| 16:10.59 | hrw|work | Remowylliams: 3.0Mbps raw, 2.1Mbps usefull |
| 16:12.21 | Remowylliams | Hmm well that is enough for a bt video camera if one ever were put together. |
| 16:13.13 | Matt_H | the iPhone needs a cable to sync with iTunes |
| 16:13.17 | Remowylliams | USB 1.1 though in this day an age. that's not a fun thing. |
| 16:13.26 | Matt_H | how lame |
| 16:14.14 | Matt_H | Music Gremlin might be ugly but at least it can do a wi-fi music store |
| 16:14.23 | Matt_H | and transfers |
| 16:14.35 | Remowylliams | Looks like I'm going to have to go back to the Nokia 880 |
| 16:15.09 | Matt_H | http://www.musicgremlin.com/ |
| 16:15.31 | meyerm | Remowylliams: well, everybody has his special needs. I for one only would like to see EDGE support and would be totally happy. Other need WLAN or USB 2. Would be to expensive to implement everything I guess. :-( |
| 16:15.52 | Remowylliams | OOPs that's the N800 |
| 16:15.55 | Matt_H | and the Neo is a 1st generation device |
| 16:16.12 | meyerm | Matt_H: 2nd with EDGE I hope ;-) |
| 16:16.23 | Matt_H | why edge |
| 16:16.37 | Remowylliams | Why EDGE and not 3G or something? |
| 16:16.51 | Matt_H | 3G or 4G |
| 16:16.51 | Remowylliams | Maybe I am confusing the things. |
| 16:17.02 | noidd | time to market and cost |
| 16:17.10 | meyerm | Matt_H: Why not? ;-) No, the reason is I need some mobile data-communication and EDGE is available everywhere in Germany. UMTS not :-( |
| 16:17.17 | noidd | plus the majority of neos I'm guessing will go to china |
| 16:17.33 | noidd | and who knows if the market there would support 3G |
| 16:17.46 | Matt_H | asian markets spport plenty of 3g |
| 16:17.55 | meyerm | Matt_H: And EDGE is fast enough for "normal" working, UMTS would be nice but is a feature - not a must-have for me |
| 16:18.42 | meyerm | *sigh* But I know myself... It will be hard to not buy a 1st gen. Neo ;) |
| 16:18.52 | aloril | multitouch is what I would like to see, at least in hardware (still hoping it actually is in v1 some way even without any software) |
| 16:19.19 | Sencer | A dialogue a few hundred years ago: Dude A: Look, the people over in that country started a revolution, they're gonna build the first democracy. Dude B: Man, look, they use pitchforks, that like, so lame. I would only take part if they used at least slingshots. Dude: No democracy for me. I am waiting for the guys with the trebuchets. It's like, sooo necesary |
| 16:19.28 | Matt_H | and wi-fi but bluetooth solutions might fix that |
| 16:20.27 | meyerm | aloril: Yeah, I have the same problem ;) |
| 16:20.58 | Remowylliams | Yeesh.. the N800 can't browse the web for long. 3 hrs. |
| 16:21.17 | Matt_H | or decent wi-fi drivers from vendors might be better |
| 16:21.46 | Sencer | meyerm: GPRS is available everywhere in germany, not EDGE. |
| 16:23.50 | meyerm | Sencer: T-Mobile is currently upgrading their network so they want to be everywhere within this year. The other are starting. |
| 16:24.08 | meyerm | Sencer: So yes, you're right. It's not yet available everywhere. But soon :-) |
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| 16:25.14 | Remowylliams | Now if they had 802.11b/g and kiax running on the thing. That could be very sweet. |
| 16:25.30 | meyerm | Remowylliams: Would drain the battery too fast ;) |
| 16:25.55 | Sencer | I am waiting for an openmoko device that has 1600x1200, and runs on x86 hardware. |
| 16:26.20 | Sencer | with support for pciexpress, of course |
| 16:26.30 | Matt_H | you want a UMPC |
| 16:26.33 | Stephmw | Sencer: it's waiting inclusion of its V12 power source |
| 16:26.37 | Matt_H | not a phone |
| 16:26.37 | meyerm | Sencer: Must Q4 run on it? Or ist Q3 ok? *g* |
| 16:26.39 | Remowylliams | meyerm: Yes but you could get at least a few hours out of it. And you wouldn't need a cell account. |
| 16:26.42 | aloril | good wearable display would be nice |
| 16:28.27 | meyerm | Remowylliams: The "no cell account"-argument is an interesting one when getting into a foreign country. (I still don't want WLAN but can really see your point and think this is a very good reason to want some WLAN.) |
| 16:29.11 | leventhal | WLAN would also rule cause of municipal wifi here |
| 16:30.39 | Remowylliams | Considering the ubiquity of open wireless hotspots. I for one have a Asterisk server, and it would make being able to keep in touch less spontaneous than having a cell but savings on cell costs would be huge. |
| 16:31.43 | leventhal | yeah.. and even buying access to the hotspot chains here would cost a hell of a lot less than my usual gprs usage patterns |
| 16:31.45 | jjazz | Remowylliams: Until wifi is truly ubiquitous, you need to fall back to a cell account, so how much are you really saving? |
| 16:33.10 | Remowylliams | jjazz: Considering that I can drive almost anywhere in town and find a signal .. Considering how badly Cell companies bill? I"d say I've saved about 300.00 so far. |
| 16:33.20 | Sencer | the hardware will evolve over time anyhow, it's the least interesting aspect of openmoko. I am amazed at how short-sighted all the interest seems to be. It's the platform that matters. There's really something starting here. And everybody is so fixated on little nitpicks |
| 16:33.34 | jjazz | Remowylliams: You must use your phone a lot. |
| 16:33.38 | Remowylliams | jjazz: And if I'm not connected to the server, it just goes to voice mail for incoming calls |
| 16:33.44 | aloril | for v2 would be nice if chip supported voice and grps at same time (GPRS A : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Class_A_GPRS_Phones) |
| 16:34.00 | Remowylliams | jjazz: How do you figure? |
| 16:34.41 | jjazz | Remowylliams: I figure you've managed to cut your voice plan minutes quite a bit, which implies that you use a lot of minutes. |
| 16:34.51 | aloril | Sencer: yup, it already has *the* most important feature: source code (and no other has it as far as I know) |
| 16:35.44 | Sencer | I am telling you, if they release v2 without pokemon face-covers this whole thing is going to bust. |
| 16:36.01 | Sencer | they have to respond to the market |
| 16:36.34 | Remowylliams | jjazz: I don't know many people who have a cell account for less than 25.00/month. But back when I did have a cell for some 4 years I averaged 6 Minutes a month. |
| 16:36.54 | meyerm | Sencer: Well, we'll see if the market will honor the openess. To be honest, I don't think so. Only through the availability of many great applications (our job ;-) ) |
| 16:36.57 | jjazz | Remowylliams: So you really don't talk on the cell phone much at all. |
| 16:41.14 | Remowylliams | jjazz: Nope I don't. However in the US it's getting really hard to find pay phones. So it was that driving to work one day, a coolant hose burst on my engine, and I pulled into a parts store. They weren't gong to open for an hour, but that would make me late for work. That's when I realized I could call and opened my laptop and phoned home as it were. :) (well office) Just would have been nicer if it could have been a pda or something. |
| 16:41.51 | Tv | Remowylliams: they removed _all_ payphones in finland in july |
| 16:42.03 | jjazz | Remowylliams: Well, I'm glad you found something that works for you. Wifi coverage in NYC isn't very good, so I need the cell network. |
| 16:43.02 | meyerm | Tv: Hey, the nordic states are modern. Doesn't everybody there have some kind of mobile phone. I read sth. above 96% (but don't ask 96% of what :-p ). |
| 16:43.07 | Remowylliams | jjazz: I can believe that. All the good wifi is 30 Stories up. |
| 16:44.05 | jjazz | Remowylliams: I run an open access point on the 2nd floor of a major street. It gets sporadic use. My office runs an open access point 17 floors up. Nobody's ever mentioned it getting used except by our guests. |
| 16:45.58 | Tv | meyerm: there are more mobile phone accounts than people here ;) |
| 16:46.15 | Tv | counting physical phones is harder, as people throw away older ones at unknown rates |
| 16:46.20 | Remowylliams | All in all that's my primary reason for wanting wifi. Edge and 3g and all can of course carry me to my server. But that still requires a data account and around here that's 59.99+ Billing hoseness, taxes etc. |
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| 16:58.44 | meyerm | aloril: I just read your message about GPRS class A. Do you know if at least some "incoming call notification" is possible when beeing online? |
| 17:04.54 | aloril | meyerm: umm.. I would except it to work like other phones: switch to voice when answering and suspend GPRS (but I don't have Neo1973 so I don't know of course) |
| 17:06.00 | meyerm | aloril: OK, thx |
| 17:06.22 | hrw|work | koen: attach patch to OE .dev into thread ;D |
| 17:06.52 | koen | hrw|work: they are using the poky fork of xserver-common, xserver-kdrive-common |
| 17:07.14 | koen | which is, ehm..... |
| 17:07.15 | koen | 'old' |
| 17:07.17 | aloril | so you can answer when using GPRS but you can't use GPRS while GSM is active, GRPS usage will continue after you stop talking (and if its short call, then things should continue OK) |
| 17:08.17 | LaF0rge | koen: I was tempted to censor that line ;) |
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| 17:24.46 | buz | ~summon roadmap |
| 17:24.47 | apt | apt takes out 20 clean, identical-looking phones, some extra hands, and pretends to be a telemarketer for a large corporation, so he gets delivered a phonelist containing roadmap's coordinates |
| 17:25.23 | buz | maybe we should try with human sacrifices instead |
| 17:26.17 | *** join/#openmoko bhima (n=gf2e@server1.mdsamerica.com) |
| 17:28.49 | bhima | Ich kann Google verwenden, um Englisch in Deutschen zu C<bersetzen, wenn der hilft. |
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| 17:29.27 | bhima | Will linux CPU actually be operating all the time on the device, or will it go to sleep until some event happens? |
| 17:30.08 | bhima | (ie: does it have dyntick, like the Nokia 770? :) |
| 17:30.25 | ciastek | does nokia stands behind openmoko? |
| 17:31.04 | bhima | I'd be very, very surprised to see Nokia involved. But I don't have any inside info. |
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| 17:37.38 | ciastek | i ask, because i have just found that info (no polish blog, so a can give a link), that behind openmoko stands a large group of telecom companies including nokia |
| 17:38.55 | bhima | Hmm. Do they clarify what they mean by "behind" and "stands"? |
| 17:39.50 | ciastek | nope. but i'll ask for that. |
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| 17:41.12 | ozamosi | ciastek: afaik, only FIC is involved. Nokia have developed Maemo, and openmoko benefits hugely from that, but that's it, afaik |
| 17:42.28 | koen | bhima: good afternoon, mister Flaherty |
| 17:42.56 | ciastek | a lot of people talks about openmoko last days.. its because iphone i think :] |
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| 17:45.33 | bhima | I wonder if the iPhone's touch screen algorithms are part of the OS, or are part of the firmware in the display. I'm _guessing_ the former, based on complexity. I'd tend to prefer the latter, since it may make alternate OSs easier. |
| 17:46.56 | gn4v3 | hello |
| 17:47.35 | *** join/#openmoko florian (n=fuchs@dns.kernelconcepts.de) |
| 17:50.04 | myren | almost certainly both |
| 17:50.07 | meyerm | bhima: But you will have to pay the full 600$ nonetheless. Better buy a v1 and then a v2 Neo ;) |
| 17:50.27 | myren | hardware hasnt provided the output data before |
| 17:50.37 | myren | and software has never been written before to parse it |
| 17:50.41 | bhima | meyerm: I don't like tryihng to use my fingers on stylus-optimized displays before. |
| 17:51.00 | bhima | Wow. My english sucks this morning. |
| 17:51.37 | meyerm | bhima: Hey, mine sucks the whole day :) |
| 17:51.42 | bhima | The touch screen and the size of the hardware are very nice, IMHO. |
| 17:51.46 | jjazz | bhima: The Neo isn't going to come with a stylus. So usually, you'll be using your finger. |
| 17:52.15 | bhima | jjazz: How well does it work with your finger? I've used fingers on every touch screen I've owned. :) |
| 17:52.46 | gn4v3 | does anyone have any learning recommends for a noob interested in developing on the openmoko ?? |
| 17:52.57 | buz | learn gtk |
| 17:53.01 | jjazz | bhima: Dunno. I haven't held one. But it's finger-oriented, so I imagine it will accomodate normal-sized fingers. Thankfully, I don't have fat hands. |
| 17:53.37 | jjazz | gn4v3: Familiarize yourself with openembedded |
| 17:53.43 | bhima | jjazz: I'm refering more to the pressure rather than the size. My newton, for example, requires a fair amount of pressure. You can have your wrist touching the display while you write. |
| 17:53.52 | gn4v3 | openembedded is more of a package management suite, right? |
| 17:54.11 | bhima | You _need_ a fingernail. Some touch screens have worked with very mild finger pressure, but most have been inbetween. |
| 17:54.37 | jjazz | gn4v3: That's not how I think of it at all. Take a look at openembedded.org |
| 17:54.41 | ciastek | oh my, a cant find url of openmoko wiki. can you give me plese? |
| 17:54.48 | jjazz | bhima: Ah. Yes, I see that distinction. |
| 17:55.12 | gn4v3 | jjazz: ok, i will , thx |
| 17:55.25 | koen | gn4v3: no, it's a build system |
| 17:55.27 | jjazz | ciastek: There's no official wiki that I'm aware of. |
| 17:55.36 | bhima | jjazz: Also, apparently apple played around a lot with surface texture. Since they're using a capacitive sensor, they can play with that independent of the rest of the touch screen assembly. |
| 17:55.49 | ciastek | jjazz, thank you |
| 17:56.38 | jjazz | ciastek: There's a couple unofficial ones, but I don't know their URLs. |
| 17:57.26 | jjazz | bhima: Yeah, they say they did something special with the glass and the sensors. Hopefully whatever improvements Apple made will filter out to other devices. |
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| 17:58.02 | ciastek | jjazz, thank you. a found one at http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/ and this is the one i look for |
| 17:58.27 | jjazz | ciastek: Thanks for telling me where it is. :) |
| 17:58.28 | bhima | jjazz: I'm not that optimistic. Obvious things like, "Don't make the controls too small to easily press with a stylus" haven't reached many handheld touch screen devices. |
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| 18:00.24 | jjazz | bhima: I tend to be optimistic. Technology has a way of making its way around. If Apple can make a ton of money licensing these small improvements, they will. And if these are the improvements that drive customer choice, some smart company will catch on. |
| 18:00.53 | buz | not sure |
| 18:01.01 | buz | apple doesnt seem to be an entirely rational company |
| 18:01.23 | jjazz | buz: They just have a very unique business model and marketing machine. |
| 18:01.27 | ciastek | openmoko presentation says, that 'k' is tribute to all hackers that build software that drives innovation into openmoko. is it 'k' as "kde", or rather another 'k'? :) |
| 18:01.48 | buz | yeah their business model revolves around "MIIIIIIINE!" |
| 18:01.56 | ciastek | :D |
| 18:02.03 | bhima | I'm not aware of any companies that _are_ entirely rational. |
| 18:02.09 | jjazz | buz: Most models do. |
| 18:02.13 | bhima | DEC's business model was "Our technology is better." |
| 18:02.19 | bhima | See where they are now? :( |
| 18:02.29 | buz | most models revolve around "now how can we make the most money" |
| 18:03.12 | bhima | The thing I like about Apple is that they seem to genuinely put effort into making their products not suck. They don't always succeed, but they try. |
| 18:03.28 | buz | yes but they are very stubborn at it |
| 18:03.30 | bhima | (Other than the Finder in OSX. I think Jobs must have a personal grudge against the Finder) |
| 18:03.41 | buz | why cant i buy a laptop with two mouse buttons? |
| 18:03.59 | buz | and where is the 12" 1.5kg macbook pro |
| 18:03.59 | myren | apples tech is "turn our customers into rabid lunatics" and "be a better cult" |
| 18:04.05 | myren | i fucking hate apple |
| 18:04.10 | myren | iDepravity |
| 18:04.32 | bhima | buz: I don't know. Please let me know when you find them, because I want them too. |
| 18:05.05 | buz | see apple is not rational |
| 18:05.12 | buz | they would clearly make money from selling a subnotebook |
| 18:05.13 | buz | but no |
| 18:06.07 | bhima | My first PowerBook had two trackball buttons. |
| 18:06.46 | Matt_H | remotes are coming with trackballs and touchpads now |
| 18:06.47 | dilinger | iDepravity would be a great product name |
| 18:06.56 | buz | iCult |
| 18:07.20 | bhima | google shows three hits for iDepravity. |
| 18:07.25 | bhima | I think they're all OCR mistakes. |
| 18:09.40 | myren | damn |
| 18:09.46 | myren | oh if htey're OCR mistakes its ok |
| 18:10.04 | bhima | If you can get one-click access to bookmarks, AJAX and/or flash are going to be used a lot for apps on the iPhone, I'm guessing. |
| 18:11.03 | myren | you know, i'd _mcuh_ rather have my apps _on_ my phone, rather than access them via my phone |
| 18:11.07 | myren | the data fees are a lot less |
| 18:11.49 | bhima | myren: I totally agree. But I have an unlimited data plan, and need to select from the devices that people have decided to make... |
| 18:12.10 | bhima | Also, I'm hoping I can hack an HTTP server into it and server my apps on localhost. |
| 18:14.14 | myren | good luck |
| 18:14.18 | myren | its a rather big risk to take |
| 18:14.31 | bhima | I'm still thinking of combining a gumstix, quad-band GPRS CF card, and EVDO CF card, into one box. |
| 18:14.35 | myren | $600 for a phone that may not ever run a native program |
| 18:14.43 | myren | now _that_ is a damned good idea |
| 18:14.56 | buz | sounds like PITA |
| 18:14.57 | myren | can you break two CF off of a gumstix? |
| 18:15.00 | bhima | I want simultaneous voice and data. |
| 18:15.48 | bhima | myren: I suspect that the code to make, say, a PIC or similar convert CF to serial isn't that hard. Haven't read through the linux or *BSD PCMCIA driver code in awhile though. |
| 18:15.52 | noidd | first thing I want is a local webcache ;-P |
| 18:16.19 | bhima | When I'm talking on the phone, I want to be able to do data stuff. |
| 18:16.49 | bhima | When an incoming call happens, I want to know the telco of the person, I want to google their phone number, look it up, and know who they are and why they are calling me. |
| 18:17.47 | myren | i hope your friends are patient |
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| 18:19.28 | bhima | myren: I want that to happen automatically. |
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| 18:20.51 | mick0 | www.freepenguin.135.it |
| 18:21.00 | bhima | I'm trying to decide on what wiki software to install. Anybody know which one(s) will let me easily embed an image? Specifically, I want to select an image on my hard drive and upload and insert it, rather than having to upload somewhere else. |
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| 18:25.31 | ciastek | bhima, i use pmwiki, because its very easy to understand how it works. and yes, you can do such things with images. |
| 18:26.09 | bhima | ciastek: How easy is it to secure it? |
| 18:26.50 | ciastek | bhima, i dont know, sorry |
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| 18:29.10 | LaF0rge | bhima: mediawiki :) |
| 18:29.10 | LaF0rge | bhima: and while the incoming call is not acecpted, even a GPRS Class B phone can still use google |
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| 18:30.58 | bhima | LaF0rge: That's what I thought, I wasn't sure. But if it's slow, I want to be able to answer them with some info, and wait for the rest. |
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| 18:35.47 | Buffet | jjazz: are you sure Neo won't come with a stylus? |
| 18:36.03 | LaF0rge | it will come with a stylus. what kind of question ;) |
| 18:36.32 | jjazz | Buffet: I asked Sean in December. He said no stylus. |
| 18:37.01 | LaF0rge | that must be some misunderstanding. |
| 18:37.29 | Buffet | it was mentioned on the mailing list that it does indeed come with one |
| 18:37.43 | jjazz | LaF0rge: Fair enough. It was a simple, striaghtforward question, but perhaps I misheard. |
| 18:38.09 | Buffet | http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2006-December/000519.html |
| 18:39.42 | jjazz | But I prefer a stylus, so I wouldn't mind being wrong. :) |
| 18:40.08 | xorAxAx | LaF0rge: ugh, moinmoin! |
| 18:40.37 | xorAxAx | instead of mediawiki :) |
| 18:44.41 | ciastek | hm.. so the software isnt minded on using fingers? |
| 18:47.07 | cying | ha |
| 18:47.13 | cying | i was just look at that web page via another route |
| 18:47.24 | cying | so it really is only a driver change |
| 18:48.04 | cying | for multi touch |
| 18:48.45 | benJIman | jjazz: apparently it has a stylus, but some apps designed for finger use |
| 18:49.03 | jjazz | benJIman: Ah, that explains it. Thanks. |
| 18:49.03 | benJIman | cying: X doesn't support multiple pointers afaik, and probably neither does gtk |
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| 18:49.17 | bhima | What is only a driver change for multi-touch? |
| 18:49.35 | bhima | Standard touch screens are physically incapable of handling multi-touch. |
| 18:49.41 | cying | benJIman: well but if you were to truly start over, you could take advantage of it |
| 18:50.20 | cying | benJIman: the UI toolkits need to be rethought to successfully compete with iphone |
| 18:50.31 | cying | gtk / X isn't going to be enough |
| 18:51.06 | bhima | I don't know that much about the X event handling system, but I think that you could hack multi-touch in by passing pointer events with more data than just clicks. |
| 18:51.20 | bhima | If I do the "pinch", that's a "zoom in" event at a particular screenlocation. |
| 18:51.28 | cying | bhima: according to the web page, they're talking to the touch screen vendor, so they think it may be at least possible for the hardware to do multi touch |
| 18:51.55 | cying | indeed |
| 18:52.23 | cying | bhima: but to get the type of interactivity and sexiness from iphone, we'll need a new ui engine |
| 18:52.25 | bhima | cying: interesting. Most resistive touch screens do something like average the two points... |
| 18:52.37 | bhima | cying: I totally agree. |
| 18:52.39 | cying | bhima: that's what i figured too... |
| 18:53.43 | *** join/#openmoko hyakuhei (n=rob@gentoo/developer/hyakuhei) |
| 18:55.32 | *** join/#openmoko xerom (n=jack@bl4-130-83.dsl.telepac.pt) |
| 18:56.06 | cying | is there a graphics chip in the neo? |
| 18:58.31 | spikebik1 | cying not really |
| 18:58.48 | bhima | I wonder how good you can get on the neo. It would be a mistake to make a sexy UI that was too slow. |
| 18:58.59 | spikebik1 | indeed |
| 18:59.20 | bhima | I don't think that a resistive touch screen will ever be responsive enough for the "spinning list" type gesture. |
| 18:59.59 | spikebik1 | I suspect iphone users may wish for less sexiness after the first month |
| 19:00.00 | bhima | spikebik1: I'll let you know in July. :) |
| 19:00.00 | Stephmw | bhima: talking of too slow - have you _seen_ the iphone keynote bits? the UI is sluggish |
| 19:00.00 | spikebik1 | there are desktop environments for linux/X that give windows/lists weight/momentum |
| 19:00.00 | spikebik1 | alpha blending |
| 19:00.00 | spikebik1 | anti-aliasing |
| 19:00.00 | spikebik1 | etc. |
| 19:00.05 | cying | graphics can be pretty good with the right base engine |
| 19:00.13 | cying | i've built a couple for openwave's mobile phone teams |
| 19:00.21 | buz | the s3c2410 is slow |
| 19:00.23 | spikebik1 | seems like mostly eyecandy that is none to cheap on power |
| 19:00.26 | cying | and there are some open source ones that can work on pretty weak ARMs |
| 19:00.42 | spikebik1 | seems like a bit less candy could be much more mean... |
| 19:00.45 | spikebik1 | er lean |
| 19:00.58 | Stephmw | SE has the right idea on its Flash UIs |
| 19:00.58 | bhima | I think that one of the big challenges is making sure you don't solve more problems than you need to - making sure you take the right shortcuts in your display calculations. |
| 19:01.03 | spikebik1 | sure on a list of 1000 numbers it would be nice to be able to scroll through 1/3rd of them with a nice smooth swipe |
| 19:01.39 | spikebik1 | I'd rather have 25% longer battery life than make all the gui semi-transparent |
| 19:01.40 | bhima | What I mean about the swipe thing is, I think you need a _very_ responsive touch screen for swiping, and I doubt that a resistive one will have a good swipe feel. |
| 19:01.48 | Stephmw | simply: animated areas of the screen require less detailed rendering than static ones. |
| 19:02.05 | spikebik1 | bhima dunno I've seen it done with a mouse, I don't think a touch screen is much different |
| 19:02.24 | Stephmw | if you ever have the chance, do film an SE flash UI in action and review it in slow-mo |
| 19:02.30 | Stephmw | very telling |
| 19:03.05 | *** join/#openmoko parag0n__ (n=parag0n@popeshoe.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 19:03.39 | bhima | stephmw: Right. And figuring out where you need to calculate transluscency and where you don't. |
| 19:04.05 | bhima | spikebik1: A lot of mice are very responsive. What's the update rate of the touch screen? I think some of them aren't all that fast. |
| 19:04.39 | *** join/#openmoko thedaniel (n=daniel@38.98.1.19) |
| 19:04.42 | bhima | Even if some are good enough, some won't be, and IMHO it'll be important to allow the UI to work well on hardware that doesn't do nice swiping. |
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| 19:04.55 | *** join/#openmoko Kokey (n=Ubunture@189.155.19.176) |
| 19:05.34 | spikebik1 | seems easy |
| 19:05.45 | spikebik1 | whatever the sample rate a few data points can be averaged |
| 19:05.56 | spikebik1 | as long as the bitblit is decent the rest should be easy |
| 19:07.26 | bhima | Do you want the average speed of the swipe, or the max speed? Perhaps the max speed is how most people indicate their desired speed? |
| 19:09.05 | Stephmw | bhima: from experience, acceleration is an important measurement |
| 19:09.25 | *** join/#openmoko koen (n=koen@dominion.kabel.utwente.nl) |
| 19:09.27 | Stephmw | bhima: otherwise you don't have fine-grained control |
| 19:09.43 | *** join/#openmoko leonel (n=leonel@189.155.112.152) |
| 19:12.34 | *** join/#openmoko terrex (n=terrex@84-122-63-17.onocable.ono.com) |
| 19:12.35 | spikebik1 | dunno, I think it would be trivial to adapt to either |
| 19:12.42 | spikebik1 | as long as it's consistent |
| 19:13.48 | *** join/#openmoko schasi (n=blub@p54A1DEB6.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 19:13.51 | schasi | hi there |
| 19:14.38 | *** part/#openmoko vargr (n=vargr@dsl092-109-027.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 19:14.41 | *** join/#openmoko vargr (n=vargr@dsl092-109-027.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
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| 19:21.12 | spikebik1 | acceleration is more important for mouse usage where you want to cross a 1600 pixel screen with a 4 inch mouse pad |
| 19:21.23 | spikebik1 | but when your add momentum it's more about speed than acceleration |
| 19:22.28 | Stephmw | I don't agree, acceleration is still needed for large lists |
| 19:22.32 | spikebik1 | why? |
| 19:23.01 | spikebik1 | you want 3 screens a second of scrolling |
| 19:23.13 | spikebik1 | so you swipe a screen ful in 1/3rd of a second |
| 19:23.22 | Stephmw | and how do you slow down? |
| 19:23.31 | spikebik1 | then you touch again to stop when close is swipe a full screen in a second |
| 19:25.40 | *** join/#openmoko duck_tape (n=adi@64.74.221.22) |
| 19:25.59 | Stephmw | spikebik1: then we'll have to disagree on the usability aspects ;) |
| 19:26.08 | ciastek | i dont like swipe-and-touch-to-stop, but swipe-slow or swipe-fast sounds good |
| 19:26.15 | Stephmw | spikebik1: I think a continuous motion is better than a swipe+tap |
| 19:26.17 | spikebik1 | yeah sure |
| 19:26.30 | spikebik1 | but still doesn't need acceleration |
| 19:26.41 | spikebik1 | i.e. the change in the rate of the finger |
| 19:27.03 | Stephmw | yes you do - otherwise you're fixing the span the user can jump through in software |
| 19:27.06 | spikebik1 | so swipe fast... then swipe close... then stop and pick an individual reocrd |
| 19:27.16 | spikebik1 | no |
| 19:27.30 | spikebik1 | er s/close/slow/ |
| 19:27.51 | hrw | so announcement on friday. |
| 19:27.59 | spikebik1 | yes... anxiously awaited |
| 19:28.03 | spikebik1 | especially since my phone is dead |
| 19:28.17 | *** join/#openmoko ssvb (n=user@87.252.225.64) |
| 19:28.25 | vargr | maybe we can pre-pre-order |
| 19:29.07 | hrw | mail coreteam@ to pre pre pre order? :D |
| 19:29.11 | ciastek | spikebik1, whats wrong is with swipping fast/slow? |
| 19:29.18 | spikebik1 | nothing |
| 19:29.19 | koen | scrolling 4cm/s isn't nice for a list that's 400m long |
| 19:29.37 | spikebik1 | it's the acceleration thats bad. |
| 19:34.29 | *** join/#openmoko Matt_H (n=chatzill@209.198.66.141) |
| 19:35.13 | *** join/#openmoko qpark (n=qpark@71.143.242.251) |
| 19:39.53 | *** join/#openmoko rgl (n=Rui@84.90.10.107) |
| 19:41.53 | unique | hi there... will it only be possible to order the phone from a special offerer, or will it maybe possible to get one from t-mobile |
| 19:42.06 | parag0n__ | doubtful |
| 19:43.09 | unique | hmm k |
| 19:43.11 | hrw | unique: have to buy from seller/distributor |
| 19:44.08 | unique | ok thx |
| 19:45.29 | qpark | Will there be a published sdk for the FIC ? |
| 19:45.47 | hrw | qpark: rather yes |
| 19:46.14 | qpark | any timeframe on sdk availability? |
| 19:46.30 | Stephmw | spikebik1: best thing about the Neo is that we'll both be able to do proofs of concept ;) |
| 19:47.09 | parag0n__ | the roadmap is out on friday qpark |
| 19:47.22 | parag0n__ | But it should be before the neo is released |
| 19:48.49 | hrw | qpark: I suspect that coreteam will provide sdk with phone. probably also with snapshot of OpenEmbedded |
| 19:49.07 | spikebik1 | I'm wondering if V1 has an issue |
| 19:49.08 | koen | qpark: you can get started now with http://openembedded.org |
| 19:49.16 | spikebik1 | (thus silence on the feb issue) |
| 19:49.25 | spikebik1 | and they are refocusing on v2 |
| 19:49.32 | spikebik1 | which was barely behind v1 |
| 19:49.39 | *** join/#openmoko debugger (n=Rui@84.90.10.107) |
| 19:49.42 | spikebik1 | thus the need for a roadmap |
| 19:49.43 | hrw | spikebik1: first prototypes had hardware problems |
| 19:50.15 | qpark | thank you all( hrw, parag0n__, and koen) |
| 19:50.18 | *** join/#openmoko friweb (n=sh@tunnel-48-12.vpn.uib.no) |
| 19:51.45 | rgl | the roadmap will include prices? *G* |
| 19:52.08 | hrw | rgl: normal price was announced as 350 USD |
| 19:52.34 | rgl | hrw, oh, I missed that announce |
| 19:52.36 | rgl | thx |
| 19:53.50 | bhima | The lack of EDGE does make me a bit sad. I've been surprisingly happy with EDGE performance on my Nokia E70. |
| 19:55.11 | hrw | after looking at gprs price here I can ignore fact that neo will have gprs |
| 19:55.40 | bhima | hrw: I think it's cheaper to roam from the US to NL than to get native data. :) |
| 19:56.16 | *** join/#openmoko Demitar (n=demitar@c-212-031-191-125.cust.broadway.se) |
| 19:56.19 | hrw | bhima: I'm not from .nl |
| 19:56.41 | bhima | hrw: whoops. So where are you? |
| 19:56.45 | hrw | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:57.07 | Stephmw | one letter away :) |
| 19:57.07 | bhima | Hmm. When I was in CZ, GPRS was quite cheap. |
| 19:57.28 | Stephmw | data rates in the UK are pretty expensive :( |
| 19:57.41 | bhima | TMobile US charges $6 for unlimited. |
| 19:58.03 | hrw | bhima: 6$ is like nothing |
| 19:58.19 | *** join/#openmoko sylvinus (n=sylvinus@mut38-4-82-233-116-173.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 19:58.23 | sylvinus | hi! |
| 19:58.39 | jjazz | hrw: $6 is extra cheese on my pizza every day except Sunday! |
| 19:58.40 | benJIman | £3 per what, day, week month? |
| 19:59.11 | *** join/#openmoko Demitar_ (n=demitar@c-212-031-191-125.cust.broadway.se) |
| 20:00.04 | bhima | US$6/month. Cingular is more expensive, at $20/month. |
| 20:00.33 | benJIman | £3 a month is rediculously cheap |
| 20:01.11 | spikebik1 | bhima are you sure that is what it means? |
| 20:01.15 | evanpro | Yeah, but then you have to go down to the currency exchange and swap your $6 for £3 |
| 20:01.20 | evanpro | I'd rather pay $6 any day |
| 20:01.20 | spikebik1 | their wording makes me think it's WAP only to a few sites |
| 20:01.24 | spikebik1 | not open GPRS |
| 20:02.15 | bhima | T-Mobile has increased their limits a bit more. |
| 20:02.25 | bhima | There are open ports. |
| 20:02.28 | *** join/#openmoko MiniMoose (i=dave@c-24-16-216-41.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
| 20:02.31 | spikebik1 | so what are the limits? |
| 20:02.59 | bhima | I don't use their service any more; I _think_ you need to use a WAP 2.0 aka HTTP proxy for port 80 access. |
| 20:03.03 | *** join/#openmoko koudelka (i=kou@84-217-74-215.tn.glocalnet.net) |
| 20:03.06 | bhima | IMAP and POP ports are open. |
| 20:03.45 | spikebik1 | euuu |
| 20:03.51 | spikebik1 | ugly |
| 20:04.11 | bhima | It wasn't like that when I was using it; I just had everything open. |
| 20:04.18 | koudelka | +wifi! |
| 20:04.23 | bhima | $20/month on T-Mobile gets you fully open, iirc. |
| 20:04.39 | spikebik1 | I mostly want ssh |
| 20:04.50 | spikebik1 | and the ability to slurp data from googlemaps and the like |
| 20:04.56 | spikebik1 | but I can bounce off other servers I run if need be |
| 20:05.04 | bhima | Run SSH on port 143? |
| 20:05.28 | bhima | One of the reasons I want a linux-based phone is the ability to set up VPN stuff at a low OS level. |
| 20:06.37 | Stephmw | I run ssh on 443 - https tends to be more supported than imap |
| 20:06.54 | bhima | Oh, also, part of the reason I want concurrent voice and data is to do out of band communications with Asterisk. |
| 20:08.22 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@9.80-202-160.nextgentel.com) |
| 20:09.19 | libervisco | That openmoko story has been dugg http://digg.com/linux_unix/Forget_iPhone_Hail_OpenMoko_the_True_Revolution_2 |
| 20:09.35 | libervisco | but it crashed the site, someone took it off the homepage and the site is up again |
| 20:09.45 | hrw | apple did lot of PR for openmoko ;D |
| 20:09.48 | bhima | When I'm travelling in a country with expensive telephony, I'll get a pair of local prepaid SIMs, leave one in the hotel with a phone. |
| 20:09.53 | libervisco | hehe |
| 20:10.17 | libervisco | I really need to find a way to contest that deadly digg effect on our sites :\ |
| 20:10.18 | bhima | You call my US VoIP number, it routes it to my system, and then calls via the local mobile/mobile rates. |
| 20:10.40 | bhima | But that means I need funky caller ID. |
| 20:14.35 | *** join/#openmoko schasi (n=blub@p54A1DEB6.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 20:17.07 | *** join/#openmoko MenZa (n=menza@last.fm/subscriber/pdpc.student.MenZa) |
| 20:17.13 | MenZa | Hey everyone |
| 20:22.51 | *** join/#openmoko gecko^| (n=gecko@unaffiliated/wtfgecko) |
| 20:23.20 | ninHer | is it for sure that it is going to be deployed without wifi ? |
| 20:23.33 | parag0n__ | yes |
| 20:23.47 | ninHer | :-( |
| 20:24.51 | *** part/#openmoko myren (n=myren@63.231.83.177) |
| 20:25.46 | bhima | wifi costs $$$ and requires power and space and appropriate interfaces. |
| 20:26.16 | ninHer | i think wifi is more useful than bluetooth, imho |
| 20:26.17 | hrw | bhima: and there is a problem getting chipset with open driver not for usb |
| 20:26.46 | hrw | most of usb chipsets have one common problem - they are 3.3V but usb is 5V |
| 20:26.46 | Stephmw | ninHer: if you have a choice of BT or no BT (and a guarantee of no wifi), which would you choose? |
| 20:27.17 | hrw | so you have board 5V -> usb 5V -> usbwifi-regulator 3.3V -> usbwifi chipset |
| 20:27.42 | ninHer | i would prefer wifi than bluetooth; sure |
| 20:27.45 | Stephmw | ninHer: it's been reported that once the V12 is included with the hardware, Wifi will follow. V12 --> http://www.ultimatestupidity.com/pics/1/diesel/ |
| 20:28.12 | ninHer | uhm that sounds fine |
| 20:28.14 | ninHer | :-) |
| 20:29.00 | *** join/#openmoko TiredMac (i=Mac@p57A29896.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 20:29.32 | *** join/#openmoko xerom (n=jack@81.193.133.116) |
| 20:30.07 | bhima | I will not buy a phone without bluetooth. |
| 20:30.08 | *** join/#openmoko lkcl_ (n=lkcl@5ac5f3e8.bb.sky.com) |
| 20:30.30 | ninHer | i will not buy a phone without wifi |
| 20:30.36 | hrw | BT in phone is more used then wifi. especially when irda is absent |
| 20:30.47 | hrw | try to beam VCard over wifi |
| 20:30.49 | meyerm | And I will buy an open phone :-) |
| 20:31.08 | bhima | I count 8 bluetooth devices within reach of me right now. |
| 20:31.10 | ninHer | well, may be but not in a few months in advance |
| 20:31.29 | ninHer | specially when you are going to be able to make phone calls for free |
| 20:31.30 | meyerm | bhima: Hack 'em! ;) |
| 20:31.52 | hrw | meyerm: I count on getting 'lunchbox' version before or on fosdem - with developer discount |
| 20:32.10 | bhima | meyerm: I've done things that count as hacking on all of them, I think. |
| 20:32.16 | Stephmw | hrw: lunchbox? |
| 20:32.20 | ciastek | what is a diffrence of lunchbox version? |
| 20:32.29 | *** join/#openmoko Khuffie (n=ahmed@38.116.199.32) |
| 20:32.32 | TiredMac | It contains some sandwiches |
| 20:33.13 | *** join/#openmoko Sencer (i=Sencer@gateway/tor/x-789ffaf197ddfd69) |
| 20:33.18 | *** part/#openmoko Khuffie (n=ahmed@38.116.199.32) |
| 20:33.56 | *** join/#openmoko neuralug (n=Omistaja@a91-152-110-97.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 20:34.01 | *** join/#openmoko MiniMoose (i=dave@c-24-16-216-41.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) |
| 20:35.28 | Sencer | wow, 180 - where are all these people coming from ^^ |
| 20:35.41 | ciastek | Sencer, openmoko.com :] |
| 20:36.34 | bhima | Even my pen is bluetooth. :) |
| 20:36.53 | bhima | dual ARM CPUs. |
| 20:37.06 | *** join/#openmoko rwhitby (n=rwhitby@nslu2-linux/rwhitby) |
| 20:37.24 | hrw | atleast rwhitby comes not from openmoko.com but from #oe ;D |
| 20:38.20 | Stephmw | bhima: I have exactly two BT devices... my P910, and my Greenphone |
| 20:38.34 | Stephmw | bhima: but wifi sucks too much juice, so I'm happy to pass on it |
| 20:39.31 | bhima | I have a Nokia E70, Nokia 770, MacBook Pro, anycom BT stereo headset, Nokia SU-1B bluetooth pen, two BT GPSs, BT Mighty Mouse, random BT mouse, ThinkOUtside BT keyboard, HBH-65 BT headset, HBH-15 headset, |
| 20:39.32 | hrw | TiredMac: hi here |
| 20:39.52 | Stephmw | bhima: :) |
| 20:40.13 | TiredMac | hi hrw :D |
| 20:40.21 | bhima | Nokia n-gage, Samsung T509, some other Nokia cheap headset, Nextlink headset... |
| 20:40.39 | hrw | bt here: Logitech 2.0 EDR dongle, SE k750i phone, SE k510i phone, TDK 1.2 dongle |
| 20:40.43 | bhima | Nokia 9500, SonyEricsson P800... |
| 20:40.51 | bhima | A few dongles, yeah. :) |
| 20:41.16 | hrw | I had nokia 6310i but gave as a gift fro friend |
| 20:41.24 | *** join/#openmoko hwizard (n=ulrik@cpe.atm2-0-1141069.0x50a37492.albnxx15.customer.tele.dk) |
| 20:41.27 | bhima | PCMCIA bluetooth card, three raw BT chipsets, two Motorola serial BT interfaces, Ericsson T39m.... |
| 20:41.31 | Sencer | bhima: is that a hobby or for professional reasons? |
| 20:41.37 | bhima | Sencer: Both. :) |
| 20:41.59 | bhima | It's more of a hobby now. I get paid more money but I buy more of my own gadgets. |
| 20:42.05 | Sencer | bhima: well, that sounds ideal ;) |
| 20:42.06 | Stephmw | so you're not just a test subject for the health hazards of BT irradiation? |
| 20:42.07 | ciastek | bhima stands for BluetoothHIMA? |
| 20:42.16 | *** part/#openmoko duck_tape (n=adi@64.74.221.22) |
| 20:42.28 | bhima | Standard Macbook, TiBook with BT dongle... |
| 20:42.52 | bhima | I have this feeling I've forgotten something... |
| 20:43.05 | bhima | iPaq h5555, yeah, I think that's it. |
| 20:43.43 | bhima | so, umm, right. I kinda want my phone to have BT. |
| 20:44.16 | *** join/#openmoko jtokash (n=jtokash@corporate.homestead-inc.com) |
| 20:44.36 | hrw | bhima: did you tested bt2.0edr <> bt2.0edr transfers? |
| 20:45.12 | bhima | hrw: No, I haven't. The macbooks and one headset are my only BT 2.0 devices, and since I have gigabit ethernet between the macbooks I don't bother. |
| 20:45.29 | bhima | I did test whether the MacOS pays attention to the serial rate you set over RFCOMM. |
| 20:45.31 | Sencer | hi dbdrei |
| 20:45.38 | bhima | I was somewhat surprised to learn that it does, in fact, do that. |
| 20:46.00 | bhima | (between two computers, that is, not just to some sort of physical BT interface) |
| 20:46.13 | bhima | I want my ham radio to be bluetooth. |
| 20:46.56 | hrw | I wonder how much will neo cost in EU |
| 20:47.16 | bhima | Eu350, or UKP350. :) |
| 20:47.36 | hrw | maybe 350PLN? :D |
| 20:47.50 | *** join/#openmoko tuxster2 (n=tuxster@user-24-214-76-32.knology.net) |
| 20:47.51 | TiredMac | Then i'll by two :D |
| 20:47.56 | koen | Stephmw: and of those only the p910 works, right? |
| 20:47.56 | ciastek | hrw, yeah! :] |
| 20:48.59 | hrw | TiredMac: they would find a method to add extra payments |
| 20:49.29 | tuxster2 | what toolkit does openmoko use for the GUI? |
| 20:49.36 | hrw | GTK2 |
| 20:50.23 | *** part/#openmoko friweb (n=sh@tunnel-48-12.vpn.uib.no) |
| 20:50.30 | Stephmw | koen: no, latest version has working BT |
| 20:51.37 | hrw | TiredMac: and I hope that they will not go into Sharp way so usb host cable will be in a box with phone ;D |
| 20:51.53 | bhima | I think single visible app UIs should be very different than multi-app ones. I'm actually pretty happy with the 770's UI. I think it works well for the intended purpose. |
| 20:53.09 | Sencer | I hope they won't do logitech style pricing, where the same mouse that costs 20USD in the US, costs 30 EUR in germany... |
| 20:53.40 | TiredMac | Please don't forget that warranty can be 30 days in the US and is two years in the EU :D |
| 20:53.52 | TiredMac | This is a bit of a factor for the pricing |
| 20:54.09 | bhima | 30 day warranties in the US are almost unheard of. |
| 20:54.17 | bhima | 1 year is the standard for consumer electronics. |
| 20:54.32 | TiredMac | Not if you check the really cheap dealers :-( |
| 20:54.41 | TiredMac | Beside from NewEgg |
| 20:54.58 | bhima | I referenced "the standard" :P |
| 20:55.02 | TiredMac | lol |
| 20:55.13 | bhima | My point is, though, that for branded things, it's not that far off. |
| 20:55.39 | Sencer | let's hope FIC falls in the branded category... ^^ |
| 20:55.40 | bhima | It wouldn't surprise me if other regulatory and tax issues have a bigger impact. |
| 20:55.54 | TiredMac | But US prices are always without any taxes. Sales tax in some states. But a lot of VAT in the EU... |
| 20:56.07 | hrw | TiredMac: 22% in Poland ;( |
| 20:56.14 | TiredMac | And a lot more annoying things that drive the price upwards |
| 20:56.38 | hrw | I had to pay ~100 USD to get tosa&poodle from customs when some guys from US donated them to OE project |
| 20:56.46 | TiredMac | Ouchie |
| 20:57.23 | TiredMac | And PriceJapan send all their stuff as "Dictionaries" with $40 worth... |
| 20:57.30 | TiredMac | So people avoid customs |
| 20:57.45 | hrw | TiredMac: it was worth anyway - tosa is awesome device (but too big and have shitty wifi) |
| 20:57.54 | bhima | TiredMac: ie: they cheat. |
| 20:58.02 | TiredMac | Thats true (both points) :D |
| 20:58.15 | leventhal | Don't worry.. customs agents here cheat too. |
| 20:58.38 | leventhal | They charge tax on the estimated Canadian value rather than the declared value. Sometimes the numbers are way off. |
| 20:59.02 | TiredMac | Yep. Canada and Australia are a pain in these cases |
| 20:59.20 | MiniMoose | how is the audio/video playback on the Neo? |
| 20:59.52 | *** join/#openmoko Tom33 (n=Tom33@adsl-18-108-237.sdf.bellsouth.net) |
| 21:00.18 | Sencer | video? did I miss something? |
| 21:00.29 | Tom33 | is there a lock button on the neo1973? if not, how do you lock it? |
| 21:00.53 | MiniMoose | I assume you'd be able to play video on the Neo |
| 21:01.07 | MiniMoose | it has a 266MHz ARM9 with 128MB of RAM |
| 21:01.11 | MiniMoose | that's a lot of horsepower |
| 21:01.42 | TiredMac | Yer. And calling it a "Neo" without capable to watch Matrix on it would be a shame :D |
| 21:01.43 | MiniMoose | the problem I could think of is if the video hardware isn't fast enough for 30FPS full screen blits |
| 21:02.16 | MiniMoose | I own a GP2X that runs mplayer just fine |
| 21:02.27 | MiniMoose | it is a 200MHz ARM 9 |
| 21:02.34 | MiniMoose | it is dual-core though |
| 21:03.02 | MiniMoose | the GP2X has hardware 2D acceleration that makes the video playback possible |
| 21:03.10 | *** join/#openmoko ly5d3x1a (n=doug@74-137-167-15.dhcp.insightbb.com) |
| 21:03.38 | MiniMoose | it supports realtime IDCT transforms used in newer video codecs |
| 21:03.45 | hrw | TiredMac: they should add Matrix transcoded on microsd |
| 21:03.59 | TiredMac | hrw: and ship it with the phone :D |
| 21:04.07 | hrw | TiredMac: s/add/ship |
| 21:04.18 | Sencer | MiniMoose: I don't really know. I only heard some speculations the other day. I don't remember anybody saying they had run video on it yet. |
| 21:04.33 | MiniMoose | Sencer: ok, thanks |
| 21:05.01 | MiniMoose | it seems like making it a portable media player would put it in head-to-head competition with the iPhone |
| 21:05.11 | Tom33 | anyone know if the Neo has a method to lock the touchpad? |
| 21:05.23 | MiniMoose | with price and hackability firmly on the neo's side |
| 21:05.23 | hrw | Tom33: will probably have one |
| 21:06.20 | Tom33 | hrw: probably? seems like an essential feature. i've had phones with buttons that would accidentally dial a number in my pocket. |
| 21:06.28 | TiredMac | But compared with the iPhone it misses the portable shower and handgranede function |
| 21:06.33 | TiredMac | like it is shown here : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijgMCuewb1s |
| 21:06.47 | bhima | Many WinCE phones don't let you lock hte screen. |
| 21:06.48 | *** join/#openmoko comicinker (n=simeon@R5a45.r.pppool.de) |
| 21:07.05 | bhima | You can turn them off, but if a call comes in, screen goes on, touch screen live, etc. |
| 21:07.41 | Tom33 | never used a wince phone |
| 21:08.31 | bhima | I've used a few. |
| 21:08.34 | bhima | *cringe* |
| 21:08.37 | bhima | THey're terrible. |
| 21:08.41 | bhima | Really, truly terrible. |
| 21:08.56 | bhima | WM5 decided that "pairing" was too confusing a term for bluetooth. |
| 21:09.00 | bhima | It's now "partnerships" |
| 21:09.38 | Tom33 | i just worry about the thing dialing numbers in my pocket because, again, i've had that happen with unsensitive hardbutton phones before. |
| 21:12.51 | hrw | TiredMac: handgranade is not needed for me - but portable shower would be nice |
| 21:13.22 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@9.80-202-160.nextgentel.com) |
| 21:14.26 | hrw | ah.. beard trimmer functionality would be nice too |
| 21:14.50 | TiredMac | Yup |
| 21:15.30 | *** join/#openmoko Stephmw (n=steph@212.69.51.139) |
| 21:17.06 | hrw | I just bought one |
| 21:17.19 | TiredMac | A neo or a beard trimmer :D |
| 21:17.34 | hrw | beard trimmer |
| 21:17.47 | TiredMac | Has it bluetooth, runs it linux ? |
| 21:18.00 | hrw | TiredMac: it is wireless |
| 21:18.26 | hrw | but did not recognize my AP so rather not wifi |
| 21:18.33 | TiredMac | htw: yer, but w/o bluetooth, it's worthless :D |
| 21:18.54 | hrw | TiredMac: 'hr<TAB' is easier ;D |
| 21:19.18 | TiredMac | lol |
| 21:19.46 | hrw | TiredMac: write 'hr' press TAB - mirc will complete |
| 21:19.59 | leventhal | my beard trimmer plays mp3s through bone induction |
| 21:20.08 | TiredMac | Any1 knows if the Neo supports a BT keyboard ? |
| 21:20.13 | hrw | TiredMac: should |
| 21:20.37 | hrw | TiredMac: it use bluez so if your linux computer or zaurus support it then phone will do it too |
| 21:20.54 | TiredMac | hrw: Hmm. Opens interesting applications :D |
| 21:21.21 | hrw | TiredMac: btw - my post about end of zaurus line hit even russian linux websites ;D |
| 21:21.57 | TiredMac | hrw: this info hits the community worldwide :-( |
| 21:22.06 | *** join/#openmoko _rob (n=rob@ACAD5063.ipt.aol.com) |
| 21:22.26 | hrw | TiredMac: I had lot of hits during weekend because of that ;D |
| 21:22.37 | MiniMoose | I'm just waiting for the day that I can have a "smartphone" like the neo that I can plug into a monitor with a dock in it |
| 21:23.02 | MiniMoose | then pull up a bluetooth keyboard and mouse and run applications on the phone but use the monitor for the display |
| 21:24.07 | bhima | MiniMoose: Why not have data sharing and the real apps in the dock? |
| 21:24.07 | ciastek | and i cant wait to see phone with Terminal |
| 21:24.21 | ciastek | neo is going to be like that, isnt it? |
| 21:24.23 | MiniMoose | admittedly it wouldn't be for gaming, but running email, PIM, web, terminal, word processing, music, and video is 95% what I do with my desktop boxes |
| 21:24.55 | MiniMoose | I've got game consoles for games ;-) |
| 21:25.02 | hrw | for me PIM is also mail (on desktop) |
| 21:25.16 | bhima | I have, erm, terminals for nethack. :) |
| 21:25.43 | MiniMoose | heh... |
| 21:26.00 | MiniMoose | you know the cool thing about multi-touch screens is that you can play games where the controller is the touchscreen |
| 21:26.23 | MiniMoose | without multi-touch you can't do button combos |
| 21:26.23 | ciastek | :D |
| 21:26.54 | bhima | MiniMoose: Many of the PDAs I've used haven't support multiple _hardware_ buttons at a tiem. |
| 21:27.08 | MiniMoose | that's a shame too |
| 21:27.10 | leventhal | bhima: Yeah.. I had a hell of a time with my toshiba e740 for that very reason |
| 21:27.37 | MiniMoose | not only does it impact game playing, but it limits the flexibility of the keyboard |
| 21:27.51 | MiniMoose | doing things like ctrl+f1 is common in the desktop world |
| 21:28.11 | MiniMoose | you could multiply the usefulness of any hot buttons if you could do combos |
| 21:29.10 | bhima | As long as silly people don't get too carried away with that... :) |
| 21:29.23 | MiniMoose | bhima: re: your previous question, you could use the dock as the main cpu, but isn't that what we have already? |
| 21:29.31 | MiniMoose | bhima: I want the phone to be my PC |
| 21:29.51 | MiniMoose | one device to bring them all... |
| 21:30.08 | bhima | MiniMoose: No, you don't. You want features that you think are best achieved that way. |
| 21:30.31 | bhima | If your data's there, why do you care which CPU the code is executing on? |
| 21:30.35 | MiniMoose | hrm...considering that I'll be paying $60/month for an unlimited cell data plan |
| 21:30.43 | MiniMoose | and another $60/month for cable internet |
| 21:31.05 | MiniMoose | I'd like to just have the cell phone connectivity |
| 21:31.26 | MiniMoose | when my phone is docked, I can use it like a PC with a real monitor and get connectivity using the cel network |
| 21:31.40 | bhima | Or you can use your phone for IP connectivity. |
| 21:31.46 | TiredMac | So you will pay $120 a month. Cell for mails, cable for d/ling pr0n :D |
| 21:31.49 | bhima | I use my phone to give my computer IP connectivity all the time. |
| 21:31.56 | leventhal | heh.. key combos.. somehow I invision breaking my fingers trying to use emacs on my phone |
| 21:32.18 | bhima | leventhal: 'zactly. Just cause you can do combinations, doesn't mean you should. :) |
| 21:32.19 | MiniMoose | yeah, but my PC uses tons of electricity compared to the phone |
| 21:32.19 | leventhal | I'm sorta glad there's no accelerometer to be used in combos |
| 21:32.37 | leventhal | even though it means I won't be able to use my phone to control a roomba |
| 21:32.57 | bhima | MiniMoose: I didn't say you needed to use an 8 CPU Pentium 1 system. |
| 21:33.13 | MiniMoose | bhima: how'd you guess? :-) |
| 21:33.34 | MiniMoose | I'm excited for technology to become unobtrusive in my life |
| 21:33.40 | MiniMoose | I just want it all in my pocket |
| 21:33.44 | MiniMoose | everything |
| 21:33.59 | leventhal | I'm eager for wearable computers |
| 21:34.12 | bhima | Given the efficiency of battery charing and discharging, I think it would be more energy efficient to use a good low wattage CPU in the dock and spare your phone's CPU. |
| 21:34.13 | leventhal | Haven't found a good input system yet |
| 21:34.23 | bhima | I like the idea of wearables. I don't know of any one I want. |
| 21:34.35 | MiniMoose | bhima: that's a resonable argument |
| 21:34.54 | *** join/#openmoko freak132 (n=freak@dhcp-0-20-18-a1-1b-b6.cpe.mountaincable.net) |
| 21:35.19 | MiniMoose | bhima: if you're going to have the CPU in the dock/monitor, you'd probably want it also to have an external USB HDD for personal data storage |
| 21:35.39 | bhima | I want my primary apps to _truly_ share data. |
| 21:35.46 | bhima | I want a scalable UI. |
| 21:36.04 | bhima | So when I'm reading my mail on my desktop, it stores metadata about the state of my operations. |
| 21:36.16 | bhima | It stores, in some abstract form, what I'm doing. |
| 21:36.25 | MiniMoose | bhima: what's that for? |
| 21:36.39 | bhima | My 770, and cellphone, and any other device, will understand that same abstract state info. |
| 21:37.04 | bhima | So if I'm in a certain mailbox, and reading and replying to email, and I get up, my cellphone's email reader will show me the same message. |
| 21:37.26 | MiniMoose | bhima: if it's all in one little device you won't have to worry about it |
| 21:37.54 | bhima | MiniMoose: You mean, if I'm willing to read my emails on a 3" screen? |
| 21:38.12 | MiniMoose | if you have it docked and you're reading email, then you realize you're late for an appointment, you can just grab the phone off the dock, jump on a bus, and your phone is still on the message you were reading. |
| 21:38.45 | MiniMoose | bhima: when the device is docked in the monitor/dock thingy, it is displaying on the monitor and the device's screen is off |
| 21:38.46 | bhima | MiniMoose: Once you have an app that can scale between 3" and 22" screens properly, making it share data with other apps is not hard. |
| 21:39.11 | MiniMoose | seems to me like having "view contexts" wouldn't be hard to implement in gtk |
| 21:39.25 | bhima | The challenge is in making nice apps that can express complex state (email isn't that hard) in appropriately abstract forms. |
| 21:39.27 | MiniMoose | switch(gtk_get_context()) |
| 21:39.40 | MiniMoose | bhima: yeah I see that |
| 21:39.49 | MiniMoose | but think of what apps would need it... |
| 21:39.57 | MiniMoose | email, PIM, web... |
| 21:40.00 | MiniMoose | maps |
| 21:40.03 | bhima | structure web searching. |
| 21:40.08 | bhima | structured, even. |
| 21:40.13 | bhima | Task-based searching. |
| 21:40.29 | MiniMoose | but those apps don't exist yet, not even on the desktop |
| 21:40.36 | MiniMoose | people don't know they need that yet |
| 21:40.47 | MiniMoose | they do know they need email, PIM, and web |
| 21:40.50 | *** join/#openmoko rlozier (n=rlozier@oh-76-1-21-155.dyn.embarqhsd.net) |
| 21:40.51 | bhima | Describe the searching task, look at web results, identify which ones are useful and relevant.... |
| 21:41.15 | bhima | MiniMoose: That's why I'm happier working at academic research labs. :) |
| 21:41.20 | *** join/#openmoko oxide (n=Josh@cpe-72-132-147-169.dc.res.rr.com) |
| 21:41.28 | MiniMoose | bhima: that's the semantic web problem that won't be solved for years |
| 21:41.53 | bhima | The basic thing I just described is something that you could implement farily easily. |
| 21:42.05 | bhima | I create a search task. |
| 21:42.17 | bhima | Define in english what it's for, maybe add some categories. |
| 21:42.27 | bhima | It pumps google, and gets some results. |
| 21:42.41 | bhima | I look at a few. |
| 21:42.54 | bhima | Rate them based on how useful they are, put one or two on the stack of actual results. |
| 21:43.03 | bhima | Refine the search, continue. |
| 21:43.56 | bhima | I can navigate through a tree of search results. I start adding terms, and decide that's not working. |
| 21:44.04 | bhima | back up three search terms, and make a new branch. |
| 21:44.29 | *** join/#openmoko koen (n=koen@dominion.kabel.utwente.nl) |
| 21:45.32 | bhima | I'd really like that for my phone. |
| 21:45.36 | bhima | Or my 770. |
| 21:45.44 | bhima | Those devices don't deal well with dozens of open web sites. |
| 21:46.30 | xkr47 | I concluded that it's nice, but not what I want :) |
| 21:46.35 | bhima | xkr47: does it look as ugly in person as in pictures? |
| 21:46.38 | benJIman | Is it as big as it looks? |
| 21:47.15 | xkr47 | it's big if you compare it to phones |
| 21:47.20 | koen | it's about as big as http://www.flickr.com/photos/86669029@N00/356833001/ |
| 21:47.33 | xkr47 | if you know the nokia n-gage for example, it's a lot smaller already |
| 21:47.50 | xkr47 | I mean the n-gage is smaller |
| 21:48.58 | bhima | both ngages are smaller? |
| 21:49.48 | hrw | cu |
| 21:49.49 | xkr47 | hmm |
| 21:49.51 | xkr47 | cu! |
| 21:49.53 | xkr47 | goodnight |
| 21:49.54 | xkr47 | :) |
| 21:50.30 | xkr47 | the screen on the n800 is not as "soft" as in the 770 |
| 21:50.49 | bhima | That freaked me out. |
| 21:51.12 | xorAxAx | soft? |
| 21:51.17 | ly5d3x1a | It looks pretty nice. The price isn't even stupid. I guess they had to leave out the 802.xx to make their price point. |
| 21:51.30 | xkr47 | well like the pen sunk slightly into the surface or something |
| 21:51.32 | xkr47 | ;) |
| 21:51.46 | xorAxAx | i like hard surfaces more :) |
| 21:51.49 | ly5d3x1a | (Sorry, I just found out about this phone today. Forgive my nasal newbie mewling ...) |
| 21:51.50 | xkr47 | I followed my friend setting it up |
| 21:52.00 | xkr47 | everything worked quite smoothly I have to say |
| 21:52.08 | xkr47 | xorAxAx, :) |
| 21:52.30 | xorAxAx | how many and what kind of usb ports does the n800 have? |
| 21:53.17 | koen | see topic |
| 21:53.26 | koen | and real a 2 pages of openmoko.com |
| 21:53.34 | koen | s/real/read/ |
| 21:54.02 | xorAxAx | koen: ? |
| 21:54.09 | xorAxAx | openmoko.com talks about nokia's products? |
| 21:54.33 | Sencer | may I ask what is it with these names: ly5d3x1a, xkr47, xorAxAx - do they have a meaning in some language? Or is it just random characters on the keyboards? |
| 21:54.37 | koen | sorry, I misread 'n800' as 'neo' |
| 21:54.53 | xorAxAx | Sencer: thats intel 8086 assembly |
| 21:55.03 | koen | 'ly5d3x1a' is a leet anagram |
| 21:55.07 | ly5d3x1a | Sencer: I've been using the name since the 80's. Yes, it's shamefully silly. |
| 21:55.30 | Sencer | ly5d3x1a: oh... I get it |
| 21:55.33 | xkr47 | xorAxAx, my friend had a feeling the n800 might be host only, but he wasn't sure |
| 21:55.34 | xorAxAx | Sencer: it can be usually found before the last instruction if the function is a predicate that returns false and doesnt have a stackframe |
| 21:55.37 | Sencer | xorAxAx: ah! |
| 21:56.01 | xorAxAx | xkr47: thats enough for me |
| 21:56.07 | xorAxAx | xkr47: does it have regular ports? |
| 21:56.12 | ly5d3x1a | Is there an sdk in the works? |
| 21:56.19 | xkr47 | xorAxAx, he recalled they put a different chip in the n800 than in n770 and that the kernel drivers supported "host" only.. but maybe it was a driver feature |
| 21:56.29 | Sencer | xorAxAx: don't worry, I don't have a stackframe either. |
| 21:56.34 | xkr47 | xorAxAx, mini usb + stereo headphones |
| 21:56.49 | koen | the SoC in the n800 support 480Mb/s host |
| 21:56.56 | xorAxAx | xkr47: stereo headphones? |
| 21:56.59 | koen | except they didn't wire it up |
| 21:57.01 | xkr47 | Sencer, I got bored of my old nick sometimes around 1998 and wrote a random string on the keyboard a few times |
| 21:57.03 | xorAxAx | you mean headphone jack |
| 21:57.13 | xorAxAx | xkr47: LOL |
| 21:57.19 | xkr47 | xorAxAx, 3.5 plug or what you call it |
| 21:57.24 | xorAxAx | yeah |
| 21:57.25 | xkr47 | Sencer, one of the strings was xkr~47 |
| 21:57.34 | xorAxAx | xkr47: and how is it charged then? |
| 21:57.37 | xkr47 | I kept that for long but it didn't work in irc so I dropped the ~ |
| 21:57.46 | Sencer | xkr47: got it. Out of curiosity - what was the old nick? ^^ |
| 21:57.49 | xorAxAx | a host only port cannot demand enough power for charging |
| 21:57.50 | TiredMac | xkr47: and 13:37 is the most leet time every day :D |
| 21:57.51 | xkr47 | xorAxAx, I don't recall how he charged it sorry |
| 21:58.14 | xorAxAx | Sencer: is this the NSA trying to track down terrorists? |
| 21:58.31 | Sencer | xorAxAx: :D |
| 21:59.00 | xkr47 | Sencer, hmmmmm.... :) |
| 21:59.14 | xkr47 | TiredMac, ?-) |
| 21:59.20 | bhima | So, the N800 is the same as the 770, you must give it 5v, but it is at least 480mbps? |
| 21:59.42 | koen | bhima: nope, no usb otg connector |
| 21:59.55 | koen | bhima: according to nokians on the mailinglist |
| 21:59.59 | koen | client only |
| 22:00.08 | xkr47 | can any phone handle even usb 1.1's worth of traffic anyway ? |
| 22:00.12 | bhima | The 770 doesn't have a USB OTG connector eitehr... |
| 22:00.29 | TiredMac | koen: sry, say again: There's no USB host for the Neo ? |
| 22:00.43 | *** join/#openmoko rgl (n=Rui@84.90.10.107) |
| 22:00.43 | koen | TiredMac: for the n800 |
| 22:00.58 | TiredMac | koen: sry, looks like i'm really tired ;-) |
| 22:01.02 | xkr47 | TiredMac, afaik neo works either as usb host or device (depending on configuration) |
| 22:01.07 | koen | TiredMac: same here |
| 22:01.10 | xkr47 | koen, do you need to unload the usb driver to switch modes ? |
| 22:01.12 | *** join/#openmoko doctorshim (n=go@ip68-106-218-27.oc.oc.cox.net) |
| 22:01.24 | TiredMac | Yer, and the cable settings |
| 22:01.30 | xkr47 | ? |
| 22:01.32 | koen | xkr47: likely |
| 22:01.54 | xkr47 | maybe autodetection could work :) |
| 22:02.02 | xkr47 | annyway, the least of my worries :) |
| 22:02.17 | doctorshim | wow, quite a few people on this channel. |
| 22:02.25 | TiredMac | You don't need autodetection. The cable wiring shows if it's host or slave USB. |
| 22:02.59 | cbpage | they're basically hubs in the middle |
| 22:03.09 | xkr47 | or well, you would have to have amplifiers every 5m |
| 22:03.16 | cbpage | and you just keep running hubs with the longest allowed cable 'till you can't anymore |
| 22:03.28 | xkr47 | TiredMac, yeah.. I think I reads something like that.. there's an extra pin telling which way it is right ? |
| 22:03.59 | xkr47 | cbpage, well this one solution has just one hub and gives 25m |
| 22:04.07 | ly5d3x1a | Perhaps the hacker's lunchbox is the sdk. |
| 22:04.19 | ly5d3x1a | With a sandwitch. |
| 22:04.29 | xkr47 | then there's another one that goes to 50 but it uses ethernet twisted pair in the middle as transport (but is still usb signalling) |
| 22:04.34 | ly5d3x1a | And perhaps an aseptic juicebox full of stout. |
| 22:04.44 | xkr47 | full of stdout |
| 22:05.19 | TiredMac | xkr47: Yep. It's a little resistor between two pins. And also you can see it from the connectors color |
| 22:05.25 | ly5d3x1a | My standard out is not something one would want to drink, friend xkr47. |
| 22:05.37 | xkr47 | TiredMac, so would neo have usb mini A or B ? |
| 22:05.39 | TiredMac | xkr47: White is host. Black is slave. A connector in grey is host/slave capable |
| 22:05.47 | bhima | Is the SDK going to be available for free? |
| 22:06.03 | xkr47 | ly5d3x1a, if you're drunk enough, even stderr goes ;) |
| 22:06.05 | xorAxAx | bhima: no, you will have to pay money to trolltech :) |
| 22:06.06 | ly5d3x1a | Good question. I can't find anything through google. |
| 22:06.22 | xkr47 | TiredMac, ok nice.. where can you order these bastards ?-) |
| 22:06.23 | xorAxAx | bhima: ... of course, free of charge, free of unfreeness |
| 22:06.54 | xkr47 | our local "biggest computer shop in northern europe" only had one mini-usb A - usb A cable and a few mini usb B - usb A cables |
| 22:07.12 | bhima | There are too many different kinds of USB cables. It gets very confusing. |
| 22:07.19 | koen | xkr47: trisoft.de :) |
| 22:07.26 | xkr47 | koen, thx! |
| 22:07.49 | xorAxAx | xkr47: maybe www.reichelt.de ships to .fi |
| 22:07.52 | xkr47 | would somebody know what cables & stuff comes with the white rabb^H^H^H^H^H^Hneo ? |
| 22:07.56 | freak132 | 6 different ends to USB cables actually. quite annoying. firewire only has 2 |
| 22:08.02 | xkr47 | xorAxAx, thx! |
| 22:08.17 | xorAxAx | i dont see any english button, though |
| 22:08.27 | xorAxAx | but i guess that you have learned german at school :) |
| 22:08.35 | xkr47 | freak132, usb A male & female, usb B, usb A mini male & female, usb B mini ? |
| 22:08.39 | freak132 | firewire also has higher realworld throughput even though 1394a is only rated for 400Mbps |
| 22:08.59 | TiredMac | xkr47: It must be a Mini A/B connector. Get our startupguide and look at page 19 here: http://www.trisoft.de/pdf/c3000qs.pdf |
| 22:09.10 | xkr47 | freak132, I guess the protocol is more suited for high-speed multimedia than nice pluggable device stuff.. |
| 22:09.15 | freak132 | xkr47, if you're counting male/female the number jumps to 12 ends |
| 22:09.27 | xorAxAx | so which cable are you searching for? |
| 22:09.29 | xkr47 | xorAxAx, no, I skipped it :P I regret now :P |
| 22:09.33 | TiredMac | xkr47: I also prefer www.trisoft.de *LMAO* |
| 22:09.45 | koen | heh |
| 22:09.49 | koen | suprising :) |
| 22:09.53 | koen | +r |
| 22:09.56 | xkr47 | freak132, ok I'll stop asking ;) |
| 22:10.05 | TiredMac | OK, I am with TRIsoft |
| 22:10.06 | xorAxAx | which cable, xkr47? :) |
| 22:10.12 | TiredMac | You need a host cable |
| 22:10.23 | TiredMac | for having fun with devices on a USB host port |
| 22:10.24 | xkr47 | xorAxAx, I need to figure out, a sec :D |
| 22:10.47 | noidd | |
| 22:10.47 | xorAxAx | they have 29 different ones |
| 22:11.00 | xkr47 | [resend] would somebody know what cables & stuff comes with the white rabb^H^H^H^H^H^Hneo ? |
| 22:11.01 | TiredMac | I help you, it's here : http://www.trisoft.de/en_tzubehr.htm :D |
| 22:11.26 | TiredMac | And don't blame me for advertising ;-) |
| 22:11.43 | TiredMac | Definitely a USB mini A client port |
| 22:11.46 | TiredMac | Black ! |
| 22:11.56 | xkr47 | hmm! |
| 22:11.58 | TiredMac | Don't look at Wikipedia, look at the color of the port |
| 22:12.05 | TiredMac | It must be black |
| 22:12.11 | xkr47 | don't get mad, but I'll check on wikipedia anyway.. to learn :) |
| 22:12.15 | TiredMac | lol |
| 22:12.25 | xkr47 | yeah the cable I connect currently with is black |
| 22:12.42 | TiredMac | Yer. Because it's a cable to connect a client to a host |
| 22:12.57 | TiredMac | If it has a white connector, it would be a cable to connect a device |
| 22:13.11 | TiredMac | Like a keyboard or a USB stick |
| 22:13.36 | TiredMac | It's pretty easy with the color coding. More info and specs can be found at usb.org |
| 22:13.52 | xorAxAx | TiredMac: where is the colour? |
| 22:13.52 | xkr47 | isn't my camera a device ? |
| 22:13.55 | TiredMac | But it's only white / black / grey. Easy to remind. |
| 22:14.00 | xorAxAx | in the inner part? |
| 22:14.04 | TiredMac | The color of the connector inner part. |
| 22:14.08 | TiredMac | If it's black : Slave |
| 22:14.12 | TiredMac | If it's white : Host |
| 22:14.19 | xorAxAx | ok |
| 22:14.20 | TiredMac | If it's grey : Host / Slave capable |
| 22:14.27 | xkr47 | TiredMac, it was in german! I aborted! |
| 22:14.30 | xkr47 | (the pdf) |
| 22:14.36 | xorAxAx | TiredMac: thats for cables or for devices? |
| 22:14.48 | xkr47 | TiredMac, but the cable is black in both ends.. yet one of the ends connects to the host (my pc) |
| 22:14.51 | xkr47 | :P |
| 22:14.57 | xkr47 | http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/Mini_usb_AB.jpg |
| 22:15.38 | TiredMac | Ouchie. Sorry. Here's the english version: http://www.trisoft.de/pdf/c3000qse.pdf |
| 22:15.54 | TiredMac | Shame on me. |
| 22:15.59 | xkr47 | no shame |
| 22:16.21 | TiredMac | *lol* |
| 22:16.26 | xkr47 | or well, I'm nuts anywya |
| 22:16.41 | xkr47 | woot |
| 22:16.49 | TiredMac | That's a must for working with Linux devices :D |
| 22:17.06 | TiredMac | But Islay Whisky helps a lot ;-) |
| 22:17.18 | xkr47 | yeah, or writing your own operating system :) |
| 22:17.23 | xkr47 | lol |
| 22:17.44 | TiredMac | No. There're really enough OS's in the world. |
| 22:17.57 | bhima | All OSs suck. |
| 22:18.05 | TiredMac | Still have a Sharp Unix System IV on 10 8" Floppy Discs here :D |
| 22:18.16 | xkr47 | TiredMac, back in 1997 when I was programming, there wasn't ;) |
| 22:18.24 | TiredMac | That's true |
| 22:18.33 | TiredMac | Wasn't life easy ? |
| 22:19.10 | xkr47 | I booted to my OS and back to dos in 30 seconds |
| 22:19.10 | *** join/#openmoko tessier_ (n=treed@gw.drjays.com) |
| 22:19.10 | xkr47 | yeah |
| 22:19.10 | xkr47 | I had autoexec.bat configured so that it automatically restarted my editor (boxer of course) |
| 22:19.11 | tessier_ | moko (moco) means booger in spanish. |
| 22:19.11 | xorAxAx | zedit is nice |
| 22:19.25 | xorAxAx | as nice as xtree : |
| 22:19.26 | xorAxAx | -) |
| 22:19.38 | ly5d3x1a | xkr47: Yes, but was your text white on blue? |
| 22:20.03 | TiredMac | ly5d3x1a: My text was always amber on undefined :D |
| 22:20.29 | xkr47 | ly5d3x1a, well when I had a spectravideo 728, it was, but on the PC I used white on black |
| 22:20.40 | xkr47 | ;) |
| 22:20.45 | xkr47 | microsoft spectravideo! |
| 22:21.11 | xkr47 | so.. |
| 22:21.16 | xkr47 | to get the terms straight |
| 22:21.37 | xkr47 | a thing connected to usb is a "device" that can be in either "host" or "client" mode ? |
| 22:21.52 | TiredMac | Nope. It's much more simple |
| 22:22.02 | TiredMac | A client can always be connected to a host |
| 22:22.15 | TiredMac | Like a camera / usb-stick / keyboard to a PC or PDA |
| 22:22.19 | xkr47 | ok |
| 22:22.21 | Sketch | there is a way to connect two hosts together though? |
| 22:22.27 | TiredMac | But not a camera to a USB stick (both are clients) |
| 22:22.32 | xkr47 | yes |
| 22:22.34 | xorAxAx | Sketch: no |
| 22:22.39 | Sketch | i think it may require a sepcial cable... |
| 22:22.40 | *** join/#openmoko Stephmw (n=steph@212.69.51.139) |
| 22:22.42 | TiredMac | Yes. But one have to be the host and one the client |
| 22:23.02 | TiredMac | So one of them has to have a grey connector |
| 22:23.09 | xkr47 | TiredMac, but if you connect a host to a client, is the other plug white and the other plug black on the cable ? |
| 22:23.16 | bhima | Sketch: yes. Sorta. You buy a "cable" which has some gadgets in the middle. |
| 22:23.19 | TiredMac | Yep. You got it |
| 22:23.20 | xkr47 | or is it called jack? heck I don't know the vocabulary :P |
| 22:23.26 | xkr47 | TiredMac, talking to me ?-) |
| 22:23.28 | bhima | It basically has two clients that talk together. |
| 22:23.28 | Sketch | bhima: ahh, so they cheat :) |
| 22:23.49 | TiredMac | OK. Let's try to get it straight |
| 22:23.54 | xkr47 | :DDD |
| 22:24.01 | TiredMac | The cable wiring defines if it is host or slave at the end |
| 22:24.20 | TiredMac | For a USB connection, you always need 1 client and 1 host |
| 22:24.44 | TiredMac | so one jack has to be white or gray, and the other black or gry |
| 22:24.47 | TiredMac | *gray |
| 22:24.57 | TiredMac | The cable defines, who the master is |
| 22:25.02 | bhima | TiredMac: Sometimes. |
| 22:25.12 | TiredMac | As long as this end is connected to a master (host) capable device |
| 22:25.20 | xkr47 | so do the "grey" cables have two grey plugs always ? |
| 22:25.30 | xkr47 | or is there gray-white, gray-black etc ? |
| 22:25.32 | TiredMac | There's no grey cable |
| 22:25.32 | bhima | Most USB devices are only host or only device. |
| 22:25.43 | bhima | There are some special bi-gender ones. |
| 22:25.51 | TiredMac | Just a gray jack where you could plug a white or black cable |
| 22:25.54 | bhima | (so we shouldn't really be getting this straight... :) |
| 22:26.07 | TiredMac | looks so *lol* |
| 22:26.07 | xkr47 | :D |
| 22:26.32 | bhima | All USB cables are designed so that you can't plug them in the wrong way. |
| 22:26.33 | TiredMac | OK. Nip a bit on your coffee or whatever. It |
| 22:26.37 | xkr47 | it's all bisexual, goddamnit! no point making the female & male connectors straight!! |
| 22:26.52 | TiredMac | It's really simple. |
| 22:26.52 | xorAxAx | TiredMac: my ipod cable is white on the pc side |
| 22:26.58 | xorAxAx | hmm, thats correct |
| 22:27.01 | bhima | Traditionally, you had host and device connectors, that's it. |
| 22:27.06 | TiredMac | Yer |
| 22:27.10 | TiredMac | You're on the right track |
| 22:27.13 | TiredMac | :D |
| 22:27.14 | bhima | The coloring thing is new. |
| 22:27.14 | xorAxAx | wow, black on the ipod side |
| 22:27.24 | TiredMac | In fact, it's three colors |
| 22:27.30 | xkr47 | TiredMac, it seems the plug/jack is colored as you said only if it follows the OTG standard, is this correct ? |
| 22:27.30 | TiredMac | for the jacks |
| 22:27.46 | TiredMac | Yes. But OTG is (like it says) STANDARD |
| 22:27.56 | bhima | My USB A to mini-B cable, not OTG, follows the color coding. interesting. |
| 22:28.02 | TiredMac | It's USB On-The-Go |
| 22:28.13 | bhima | TiredMac: But if your cables aren't OTG, then you can get confused... |
| 22:28.16 | xkr47 | yeah.. I figured that from the sharp manual |
| 22:28.26 | xkr47 | bhima, I get confused anyway :) |
| 22:28.28 | TiredMac | Our's are standard. Sure. |
| 22:28.34 | TiredMac | White for the host-cable |
| 22:28.38 | TiredMac | ??? |
| 22:28.42 | TiredMac | *lookspuzzled* |
| 22:28.42 | xkr47 | TiredMac, you work for trisoft.de.. or was it the other one ?-) |
| 22:28.50 | bhima | So the thing to remember is that all cables are only designed to be plugged in correctly, you can't plug them in in a way that doesn't work. |
| 22:28.52 | TiredMac | I'm Marc from TRIsoft, yes |
| 22:29.05 | xkr47 | ok, hi! |
| 22:29.06 | xkr47 | :) |
| 22:29.09 | TiredMac | Yep. They're also shape-coded |
| 22:29.29 | xkr47 | can linux usb things typically act as host / client ? |
| 22:29.31 | bhima | So all cables are device at one end, and host at the other. |
| 22:29.41 | xkr47 | or is it just a mini usb feature ? |
| 22:29.53 | bhima | There's one magic connector for devices that can accept eitehr a host, or a client, connector. |
| 22:29.56 | xkr47 | (that it can be either, and thus uses a grey connector) |
| 22:30.04 | TiredMac | No, not really. It's a mini usb feature. The main trick is a small resistor between two pins. |
| 22:30.23 | TiredMac | So you'll find the grey connector only on devices, not in cables |
| 22:30.24 | xkr47 | no, not really => linuxes can only act as host ? |
| 22:30.44 | TiredMac | Your Mobo chip is only host-capable (afaik) |
| 22:30.47 | xkr47 | TiredMac, ah so the cables look the same but the connectors on the devices have colouring ? |
| 22:30.47 | bhima | xkr47: most things are one way only. |
| 22:30.52 | *** join/#openmoko l4rs (n=laprican@hsiproxy.astra-net.com) |
| 22:30.55 | bhima | The cables don't look the same. |
| 22:31.04 | bhima | They look...confusingly _similar_ but not the _same_. |
| 22:31.08 | xkr47 | well .. same color.. |
| 22:31.11 | xkr47 | sorry said it badly |
| 22:31.30 | xkr47 | .. anyway.. I think I heard some projects about connecting two pcs together with usb |
| 22:31.38 | xkr47 | dunno what they did then, maybe it was som ehack |
| 22:31.43 | TiredMac | You can't see it directly on the cable. It's just a funny thing that our host cable has a white plastic around. |
| 22:31.54 | TiredMac | You have to look at the connector inside the jack |
| 22:32.19 | TiredMac | And (to make it more complicate) there're some cheap china cables out there, that don't care about the colors |
| 22:32.36 | TiredMac | Jack is where you plug your cable in :-) |
| 22:32.44 | xkr47 | "any of various portable devices for raising or lifting heavy objects short heights, using various mechanical, pneumatic, or hydraulic methods." |
| 22:32.54 | TiredMac | Aaaaaaargh |
| 22:32.58 | xkr47 | :DD |
| 22:33.01 | xkr47 | is jack == outlet |
| 22:33.06 | TiredMac | Yes. You got it :D |
| 22:33.19 | TiredMac | What you will find at the back of your PC |
| 22:33.22 | xkr47 | and plug == connector |
| 22:33.27 | TiredMac | Yup |
| 22:33.35 | xkr47 | I thought I knew english |
| 22:33.36 | xkr47 | :) |
| 22:33.40 | TiredMac | *lol* |
| 22:33.42 | xkr47 | but I learn |
| 22:33.55 | TiredMac | Same for me ;-) |
| 22:33.58 | xkr47 | so.. USB B & miniUSB B are both client-only connectors, right ? |
| 22:34.06 | TiredMac | Yes |
| 22:34.07 | xkr47 | and USB A is host only |
| 22:34.12 | TiredMac | Also : Yes |
| 22:34.33 | xkr47 | but miniUSB A, if grey, is host/client, or if something else (hopefully white), host only |
| 22:34.59 | TiredMac | If it's gray, you'll look at a jack. Cause there's no host/client cable ;-) |
| 22:35.14 | xkr47 | woot!!! |
| 22:35.23 | TiredMac | *applause* |
| 22:35.38 | xkr47 | I think we have to .. |
| 22:35.44 | xkr47 | Added in the On-The-Go Supplement to the USB 2.0 Specification: |
| 22:35.44 | xkr47 | Mini-A plug (white) |
| 22:35.44 | xkr47 | Mini-A receptacle (white) |
| 22:35.44 | xkr47 | Mini-AB receptacle (grey) |
| 22:36.13 | xkr47 | so is the grey jack actually different from both miniA and miniB ? |
| 22:36.22 | TiredMac | YEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH ! You got it ! |
| 22:36.29 | TiredMac | And if you're really really really bored |
| 22:36.30 | xorAxAx | auto-sensing |
| 22:36.34 | TiredMac | Go to : http://www.usb.org/developers/onthego/ |
| 22:36.39 | xkr47 | I thought it was like miniA but with some resistor added |
| 22:36.46 | xkr47 | NOW YOU'R TELLING ME!! |
| 22:36.52 | xkr47 | :) |
| 22:36.55 | TiredMac | And get the OTG Supplement (pdf, 776k) - Revision 1.2, 04-04-2006 for full specification |
| 22:37.09 | xkr47 | xorAxAx, jacks and janes |
| 22:37.09 | *** join/#openmoko aevin (n=brootvor@150.80-203-127.nextgentel.com) |
| 22:37.42 | TiredMac | It's also of a different shape. So nobody can plug a host cable in a client port... |
| 22:37.45 | xorAxAx | xkr47: nah, jane and jane and a bisexual usb cable would be fine |
| 22:37.51 | TiredMac | OK, with some force, it may fit :D |
| 22:38.24 | xorAxAx | TiredMac: ah, is it related to A/B? |
| 22:38.31 | xkr47 | :) |
| 22:38.52 | TiredMac | Yes. Kinda. Just read it and get enlighted ;-) |
| 22:39.02 | xkr47 | TiredMac, but can somebody plug either a host or a client plug in a grey jack (or jane) ? |
| 22:39.17 | TiredMac | Yes. That's because it's a gray (host / client) jack |
| 22:39.38 | TiredMac | It's really pretty simple. Just step back and grab some of your USB deviced. |
| 22:39.49 | TiredMac | Look at the connectors. They will be black in most cases. |
| 22:39.50 | xkr47 | but the os still doesn't necessarily get the information and you have to (pre-)configure it to work properly.. |
| 22:40.03 | TiredMac | That's right. |
| 22:40.05 | *** join/#openmoko comicinker (n=simeon@R5a45.r.pppool.de) |
| 22:40.05 | xkr47 | I have a mini-B in front of me now :) |
| 22:40.13 | xorAxAx | TiredMac: what should i read? |
| 22:40.19 | *** part/#openmoko comicinker (n=simeon@R5a45.r.pppool.de) |
| 22:40.19 | xorAxAx | i cant find usable info there |
| 22:40.26 | *** join/#openmoko comicinker (n=simeon@R5a45.r.pppool.de) |
| 22:40.31 | TiredMac | The OTG supplement PDF with the complete specification |
| 22:40.37 | xkr47 | I have a cable that has a usb-a and a mini-b and they're all black :) |
| 22:40.51 | TiredMac | Everything about color coding / jack and plug shaping and stuff |
| 22:41.05 | TiredMac | It's the official specification |
| 22:41.20 | xkr47 | we believe you as soon as we understand you :) |
| 22:41.32 | TiredMac | I know, it's hard to understand me ;-) |
| 22:41.42 | xkr47 | it's hard to understand usb :) |
| 22:41.47 | xkr47 | it's too simple :) |
| 22:41.57 | TiredMac | Sometimes it is. |
| 22:42.01 | xkr47 | oh may that document has been revised :) |
| 22:42.23 | TiredMac | Nope. Not since April 2006 ;-) |
| 22:42.25 | xkr47 | only took 6 years :DD |
| 22:43.16 | xkr47 | nice, detailed pixx of females & males & bisexuals!!! |
| 22:43.18 | bhima | I understand it. |
| 22:43.21 | xkr47 | usb pr0n! |
| 22:43.40 | xkr47 | only colors are missing |
| 22:43.57 | TiredMac | :D |
| 22:44.24 | xkr47 | one would think that would be a key thing, but no.. they wanted to save printing costs |
| 22:44.53 | TiredMac | They're not selling printed manuals... |
| 22:45.35 | xkr47 | LOOL |
| 22:45.37 | xkr47 | "Max cable length = shorter of 4.5m or 25nsec electrical length" |
| 22:45.55 | TiredMac | lightspeed is still an issue ;-) |
| 22:46.00 | xkr47 | "how long is your cable? 24 nanoseconds! OK you're good!!" |
| 22:46.09 | TiredMac | *lmao* |
| 22:47.11 | bhima | Is there a minimum length? |
| 22:47.14 | *** join/#openmoko cjb (n=cjb@1cc-dhcp-99.media.mit.edu) |
| 22:47.24 | xorAxAx | TiredMac: does this mean that my slave has to support OTG if i want to attach it to the e.g. n800? |
| 22:47.45 | TiredMac | OTG is just the name for that small connector |
| 22:47.51 | bhima | xorAxAx: the n800 is a device only. |
| 22:48.10 | bhima | (it is probably hackable into a host with external power foo and cable choppery) |
| 22:48.36 | xorAxAx | bhima: hmm, i dont need power ... |
| 22:48.55 | bhima | xoraxax: So? :P |
| 22:48.59 | bhima | Your USB chipset does. |
| 22:49.10 | bhima | The 770 needs 5v power to go into host mode. |
| 22:49.16 | xkr47 | WTF!! there's one example chart with "Mini-A plug to cut end" |
| 22:49.21 | xorAxAx | bhima: hmm |
| 22:49.33 | bhima | Doesn't matter if your device is powered or not. |
| 22:49.33 | xorAxAx | bhima: my slave doesnt need power |
| 22:49.37 | TiredMac | The Neo1073 is also unpowered host. So you'll need an active hub to use devices. |
| 22:49.46 | xkr47 | what do you use these cut end cables for? as antennas?---) |
| 22:49.49 | bhima | xoraxax: your host needs power. :P |
| 22:49.50 | xorAxAx | TiredMac: even if the device is self-powered? |
| 22:49.53 | xorAxAx | bhima: yes |
| 22:50.00 | bhima | xoraxax: Your host needs 5v. |
| 22:50.10 | bhima | It does not generate 5v itself. |
| 22:50.22 | xorAxAx | bhima: ah |
| 22:50.25 | xkr47 | TiredMac, my aim was to create a short mini-usb-a to mini-usb-b cable that adds +5V from a battery |
| 22:50.38 | *** part/#openmoko tessier_ (n=treed@gw.drjays.com) |
| 22:50.41 | xkr47 | TiredMac, because my camera takes a mini-usb-b.. |
| 22:50.45 | xorAxAx | and n770 has otg? |
| 22:50.59 | bhima | The 770 and N800 do not have a genuine OTG implementation. |
| 22:51.13 | bhima | The 770 has the _innards_ to do OTG. |
| 22:51.17 | bhima | Well, _most_ of the innards. |
| 22:51.27 | TiredMac | xkr47: The battery idea maybe possible, but i would prefer a commercial USB hub. |
| 22:51.38 | xorAxAx | bhima: and, did people manage to use the innards? |
| 22:51.48 | bhima | The things needed for it to really do OTG: the correct connector, and 5v power. |
| 22:52.00 | bhima | If it were designed by Nokia to do OTG, it would include a 5v supply inside. |
| 22:52.13 | xkr47 | xorAxAx, why does the host (== neo) need 5V also? I thought 5V is used by the neo for charging.. and I don't want to charge my neo off some batteries |
| 22:52.15 | bhima | Since it doesn't ahve this, you can give it 5v externally. |
| 22:52.30 | xkr47 | sorry bhima... |
| 22:52.33 | bhima | Powered USB hubs will not solve this problem. |
| 22:52.40 | xorAxAx | xkr47: the otg slave needs power |
| 22:52.43 | bhima | Powered hubs only power _downstream_, not upstream. |
| 22:52.46 | xorAxAx | xkr47: even if it is in host mode :) |
| 22:52.52 | TiredMac | They will. You can't power devices from a phone battery. |
| 22:53.06 | Stephmw | TiredMac: ... for long |
| 22:53.10 | xorAxAx | xkr47: haha |
| 22:53.12 | bhima | You can power devices from a phone battery. |
| 22:53.29 | bhima | All USB devices need power to work, obviously. |
| 22:53.31 | xorAxAx | bhima: are you sure that no otg implementation of a slave is self-powering? |
| 22:53.46 | bhima | xoraxax: What is an OTG implementation of a slave? |
| 22:53.53 | xorAxAx | bhima: a B one |
| 22:53.58 | xkr47 | a) you can't use the usb port in neither host nor client mode unless you also feed it 5V ? |
| 22:54.06 | xorAxAx | bhima: lets just use A and B |
| 22:54.13 | xorAxAx | B will start in slave mode and expect power |
| 22:54.20 | bhima | All devices that I have used require 5v on the USB port, period. |
| 22:54.27 | TiredMac | Depends if the client will suck power from the host ;-) |
| 22:54.41 | xorAxAx | TiredMac: bhima claims that it doesnt matter |
| 22:54.42 | TiredMac | For example: A camera won't ! |
| 22:54.43 | xkr47 | bhima, except if you have a PC which actually feeds 5V into the cable |
| 22:54.54 | TiredMac | Aaaargh. A PC IS A HOST ! |
| 22:54.57 | xorAxAx | TiredMac: bhima says that no device will work because the root hub wont have the power |
| 22:55.06 | bhima | Your DVD burner? It has power to operate the burner part, but it gets 5v from the USB host. |
| 22:55.07 | xorAxAx | in case of an B OTG dev |
| 22:55.16 | TiredMac | Point for you |
| 22:55.16 | bhima | There's no such thing as a "B OTG device" |
| 22:55.17 | xkr47 | TiredMac, I know that.. but bhima is saying the host needs to be fed 5V if it doesn't have it itself :P |
| 22:55.23 | bhima | There's an OTG device in host or device mode. |
| 22:55.32 | xorAxAx | bhima: incorrect |
| 22:55.46 | xkr47 | gaah :) |
| 22:55.50 | TiredMac | May i try to interrupt your fight ? |
| 22:55.50 | xorAxAx | please refer to page rev 1.2 page 2 |
| 22:55.56 | bhima | hold on a sec. |
| 22:56.03 | xorAxAx | also see 3.6 of the spec |
| 22:56.19 | xorAxAx | sooo ... who powers the root hub of a B otg dev in host mode? %-) |
| 22:56.30 | xkr47 | lol ol |
| 22:56.38 | xkr47 | I WILL POWER ALL YOUR DEVICES. PERIOD. |
| 22:57.10 | TiredMac | May we stop this at the following point: |
| 22:57.17 | ciastek | hmm.. who cares? :] |
| 22:57.24 | TiredMac | Normally, a USB host device has to power at least a bit. |
| 22:57.33 | TiredMac | Enough for, let's say, a USB stick. |
| 22:57.40 | TiredMac | Not enough for a USB harddisk or CD drive |
| 22:57.42 | xorAxAx | no |
| 22:57.52 | xorAxAx | an usb host has to power < 50 mA |
| 22:57.58 | xorAxAx | until the device requested more |
| 22:58.07 | TiredMac | Should be enough for a USB stick, or not ? |
| 22:58.14 | xorAxAx | --> all cooking and massage devices violate the specs! |
| 22:58.18 | ciastek | afaik each port should supply something about 200mA at 5V |
| 22:58.19 | xkr47 | /join #usb-flamewar |
| 22:58.26 | TiredMac | I want to have a massage device ! |
| 22:58.26 | xkr47 | xorAxAx, lol |
| 22:58.27 | xorAxAx | TiredMac: hmm, dont think so :) let me see |
| 22:58.31 | ciastek | of 50mA :> |
| 22:58.33 | cbpage | lol |
| 22:58.40 | cbpage | i think it's 500ma - 2.5w |
| 22:58.46 | xorAxAx | cbpage: no! |
| 22:58.46 | xkr47 | TiredMac, I want a massage device that runs on 50mA :D |
| 22:58.54 | xorAxAx | cbpage: only if the device was allowed to draw that |
| 22:59.03 | xkr47 | suck it baby! |
| 22:59.12 | xorAxAx | cbpage: thats an authorian protocol |
| 22:59.16 | *** join/#openmoko Tresk2 (n=lars@084202170072.customer.alfanett.no) |
| 22:59.21 | TiredMac | I can only tell from the Sharp Zaurus series (it's simply the only USB A/B device i know of) |
| 22:59.27 | xorAxAx | its not anarchisitic like the usb massage system vendors want to make you think! |
| 22:59.32 | Stephmw | xkr47: those types of 'devices' usually run on AA batteries, no? |
| 22:59.34 | TiredMac | You may use a USB stick, a USB keyboard |
| 22:59.47 | xkr47 | hell I have no idea |
| 22:59.51 | ciastek | Devices that need more than 500 mA or higher than 5 volts must provide their own power. http://pinouts.ru/Slots/USB_pinout.shtml |
| 22:59.56 | TiredMac | AA bats have the bad point to run with 6V if you put 4 in ;-) |
| 22:59.57 | ciastek | youre right cbpage |
| 22:59.58 | xkr47 | I'm just watching a great play.. on irc :) |
| 23:00.23 | xkr47 | TiredMac, there's always 7805 to the rescue! :) |
| 23:00.25 | TiredMac | *getting beer, chips, popcorn* |
| 23:00.37 | bhima | You want a low dropout regulator. |
| 23:00.55 | xkr47 | TiredMac, some example used a 9V battery and a 7805.. I guess it lasts longer but wastes more |
| 23:01.00 | xorAxAx | TiredMac: hmm |
| 23:01.05 | xorAxAx | TiredMac: i have a self-powered HD |
| 23:01.10 | xorAxAx | TiredMac: would it work as well? |
| 23:01.14 | TiredMac | Self powered :-O |
| 23:01.20 | xkr47 | lol |
| 23:01.21 | xorAxAx | i think an usb keyboard at the zaurus is not OTG! |
| 23:01.27 | bhima | self powered HDs still need 5v. |
| 23:01.31 | xorAxAx | yes, my boss gave it to me as a gift |
| 23:01.38 | TiredMac | YES ! It is (sorry for shouting) |
| 23:01.39 | bhima | even if they don't draw much power |
| 23:01.52 | xorAxAx | bhima: it doesnt need usb at all to work |
| 23:02.03 | xorAxAx | bhima: so whats the difference between my hd and his keyboard? |
| 23:02.04 | xkr47 | xorAxAx, has Chuck Norris scared up your drive so much that it spins out of being scared ?-D |
| 23:02.06 | TiredMac | OK. I suggest, we stop here unless we have the first developer models in our hands ? |
| 23:02.19 | bhima | xoraxax: the USB driver components probably need 5v. |
| 23:02.20 | xorAxAx | xkr47: yes, it was made by chuck norris |
| 23:02.23 | TiredMac | And Chuck Norris cheats ! |
| 23:02.34 | bhima | It's common for the driver components on the device to be bus powered. |
| 23:02.38 | TiredMac | Chuck Norris is capable to burn ants with a glass, even at night ! |
| 23:02.40 | xorAxAx | bhima: then why does TiredMac's keyboard work with his zaurusses? |
| 23:02.41 | xkr47 | TiredMac, you getting tired already ?-) |
| 23:02.51 | TiredMac | Yer |
| 23:02.53 | TiredMac | :-) |
| 23:02.59 | xorAxAx | yer? |
| 23:03.06 | xorAxAx | as in yen? :) |
| 23:03.07 | TiredMac | Yep, Yes, Ja |
| 23:03.09 | bhima | xoraxax: some things don't follow the spec. |
| 23:03.17 | bhima | Somebody found a hub that gives upstream power. |
| 23:03.21 | xkr47 | slight but noticable differencies |
| 23:03.21 | xorAxAx | TiredMac: are you from saxony? |
| 23:03.32 | TiredMac | Nope, lower-saxony, Hannover |
| 23:03.42 | xorAxAx | in hannover, you say yer? |
| 23:03.58 | TiredMac | Nope. It's just a US term i get used to... |
| 23:04.09 | xorAxAx | there is y'all though |
| 23:04.12 | TiredMac | Shorter form of "yeah" |
| 23:04.15 | xorAxAx | it means something different though :) |
| 23:04.23 | TiredMac | huh ? |
| 23:04.33 | xorAxAx | its like hi to you all |
| 23:04.39 | xkr47 | lol there's drawings in this pdf of trying to put in plugs the wrong way, proving it cannot happen! :DD |
| 23:04.45 | Psi | if the usb device just needs to be able to sense a voltage on the usb power pin of the phone, (ie the device has its own external power), then it would be easy to put a diode from the usb data out of the phone and then a capacitor to ground. That would provide a very low current 5v rail |
| 23:05.03 | Psi | could even put those components into the usb plug maybe |
| 23:05.10 | TiredMac | Everything happens. I had a customer plugging his VGA cable in the serial port. Everything fits with force ! |
| 23:05.25 | xkr47 | TiredMac, just one ?-) |
| 23:05.44 | TiredMac | I'm glad, we're out of the PC business since a few years ;-=) |
| 23:05.45 | xkr47 | psi, just force the diode through the cable at the right spot :)) |
| 23:05.52 | Psi | hehe |
| 23:06.08 | Psi | the trick would be getting the system to start |
| 23:06.24 | Psi | cos until the phone sends some data, the cap wont be charged |
| 23:06.38 | Psi | and it wont sent data until it thinks there is something on the port to send it too |
| 23:06.39 | xkr47 | "first thing I do when I get the phone is to measure the voltage pin voltage and shut up all rumors" :) |
| 23:06.52 | TiredMac | Same here |
| 23:07.17 | TiredMac | And start to write a useful manual ;-) |
| 23:07.25 | Stephmw | TiredMac: whoa. |
| 23:07.28 | Stephmw | back up there |
| 23:07.31 | Stephmw | a *manual*? |
| 23:07.42 | Stephmw | you heaten. |
| 23:07.44 | TiredMac | For our EU customers |
| 23:07.46 | Stephmw | I bet you use a Mac. |
| 23:07.55 | xkr47 | ;) |
| 23:08.01 | Stephmw | *heathen even... damn left hands |
| 23:08.03 | TiredMac | Nope, i must admit, i work with Windows XP on a PC |
| 23:08.44 | TiredMac | Mac is just a Marc who loses the "r" 27 years ago :-( |
| 23:09.23 | bhima | sorry, was away working again. |
| 23:09.30 | Psi | wonder if we could get a usb->bt dongle, and attach a 2.4g (802.11) RF amp to it with a large external antenna, that might allow us to use BT from anyway around the house just like wifi |
| 23:09.45 | xkr47 | Stephmw, you have two left ?-) |
| 23:09.52 | TiredMac | BT may work, but WiFi will not |
| 23:10.00 | bhima | In my experience, and that of others, the USB driver chips on devices always need power from the host. |
| 23:10.11 | Stephmw | xkr47: feels that way |
| 23:10.11 | Psi | yea, i know, it wills till be BT |
| 23:10.11 | Psi | but the range should be boosted alot |
| 23:10.11 | TiredMac | But why would you use a BT dongle if BT is included ? |
| 23:10.19 | Stephmw | xkr47: but really, I just type like shit this late |
| 23:10.34 | Psi | TiredMac, no, for the other end of the BT connection |
| 23:10.44 | Psi | to get the neo onto your home network |
| 23:10.59 | xkr47 | Stephmw, don't worry.. I have shit-english babelfish in my eyes |
| 23:11.08 | TiredMac | Even if you're miles away ? Interesting ;-) |
| 23:11.20 | Psi | na, it wouldnt make it that far |
| 23:11.36 | Psi | but it would boost it above the 30meter max of bt class 2 |
| 23:11.39 | TiredMac | But that WOULD be interesting ;-) |
| 23:12.00 | Psi | you could probably do miles if you used a directional antenna at on end |
| 23:12.10 | Psi | but the problem would be the return signal from the phone |
| 23:12.18 | TiredMac | Correct |
| 23:12.25 | xkr47 | interesting stuff copypasted from the community mailing list: http://xkr47.outerspace.dyndns.org/tmp/openmoko_xdpyinfo |
| 23:12.48 | bhima | The directional antenna would be useful for both ways. |
| 23:13.27 | Psi | if you really want to cut a hole in the neo casing to add the wires |
| 23:13.29 | xorAxAx | (163x217 millimeters) |
| 23:13.33 | xorAxAx | pretty large screen |
| 23:13.36 | xkr47 | Psi, what wires ?-) |
| 23:13.45 | xkr47 | for external bt antenna ?-) |
| 23:13.48 | Psi | yes |
| 23:13.49 | TiredMac | But 75 dpi sucks :-O |
| 23:14.46 | xkr47 | it's wrong.. the screen really isn't 217x163 millimeters ;)) |
| 23:14.48 | Psi | a 2.4G wifi rf amp should work well for BT, same frequency |
| 23:15.27 | xorAxAx | xkr47: of course |
| 23:15.43 | bhima | Psi: it wouldn't be legal, however, without approval. |
| 23:16.11 | Psi | its legal for use on wifi |
| 23:16.47 | TiredMac | We had one of the guys of the world record WiFi thingy visiting us last year. That was a hell of a WiFi card ;-) |
| 23:17.03 | Psi | im talking about the retail available 2.4GB amps |
| 23:17.12 | Psi | sorry, 2.4Ghz |
| 23:17.15 | bhima | It's legal for use on a specific wifi card with a specific antenna. |
| 23:17.34 | xkr47 | Stephmw, that's nothing, my training bicycle outputs more power when I use it! |
| 23:17.56 | TiredMac | Yep. But who wants to ride a bicycle just for going online ? |
| 23:17.59 | Psi | bhima, all the amps here say "Connects to any 2.4Ghz Wi-Fi device like.." |
| 23:18.28 | bhima | Psi: What FCC approvals do they have? |
| 23:18.41 | TiredMac | There's only one |
| 23:18.57 | Psi | dunno, but im in NZ, so different laws to US |
| 23:19.08 | TiredMac | Oooops. Ok |
| 23:19.31 | TiredMac | Normally it's : If it has CE than it complies with FCC and the rest of the world |
| 23:20.21 | TiredMac | European regulations are the hardest to met. |
| 23:25.53 | *** join/#openmoko Zer0HiT (n=Z@cpe-24-195-252-248.nycap.res.rr.com) |
| 23:26.35 | *** part/#openmoko comicinker (n=simeon@R5a45.r.pppool.de) |
| 23:29.36 | *** join/#openmoko shwag (n=steven@static-71-165-111-2.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) |
| 23:29.44 | shwag | is this for real ? |
| 23:30.18 | jjazz | No, it's all a bad dream. Go back to sleep. |
| 23:30.26 | TiredMac | *lol* |
| 23:31.02 | TiredMac | And don't forget to take the RED pill ;-) |
| 23:31.19 | jjazz | Aw hell, take them both. More interesting that way. |
| 23:31.25 | bhima | The FCC rules require only approved antennas and anything else. |
| 23:31.33 | bhima | You can't hook up your own wifi antenna legally. |
| 23:31.35 | |Melkman| | and no, it won't work with Verizon.... |
| 23:32.04 | TiredMac | |Melkman| Why ? |
| 23:32.29 | shwag | when is the hardware gonna be available for purchase ? |
| 23:32.51 | xkr47 | see topic |
| 23:33.09 | |Melkman| | Verizon is not GSM... |
| 23:33.18 | TiredMac | Good point :D |
| 23:33.28 | *** part/#openmoko unique (n=unique@ip43071.stuwe.fh-schmalkalden.de) |
| 23:36.58 | Psi | if you hooked up a 2.4Ghz wifi amp to a BT device, it would work exactly the same, only the data would be different, so i really dont see how it could cause any legal problems |
| 23:37.16 | bhima | Psi: In the US it would be absolutely illegal. |
| 23:37.19 | xkr47 | lol.. "Who do I talk to ask them to include WiFi connectivity with the OpenMoko? I'll sell my body parts to get hold of such a device. " |
| 23:37.31 | bhima | Psi: You _must_ get the _specific_ transmitter and antenna approved, period. |
| 23:38.33 | bhima | When Linksys wanted to make high gain antenans for their gear, they submitted separate test results for all three or four antennas, on each of something like 7 or so base stations. |
| 23:39.09 | bhima | There are rules about spurious emissions, as well. |
| 23:39.35 | bhima | WHat if the particular BT chipset had spurious emissions that are close to the limit? Amp it up --> greater out of band emissions. |
| 23:39.39 | xkr47 | good night all! |
| 23:39.45 | bhima | I'm not saying they're going to kick your door down or anything. |
| 23:39.45 | TiredMac | good n8 |
| 23:40.31 | TiredMac | They're just not letting you put the nice FCC mark on it ;-) |
| 23:41.48 | bhima | If you had a ham radio license, you could re-certify it that way, but you'd need to turn off encryption and so on. |
| 23:46.36 | *** join/#openmoko Carna (n=andrea@151.57.108.154) |
| 23:46.48 | Carna | Hi geeks |
| 23:47.02 | TiredMac | Hi |
| 23:47.38 | Carna | I have read about the phone...can I make some questions? |
| 23:47.58 | mickeyl | don' |
| 23:48.07 | mickeyl | don't ask to ask. go ahead and someone may answer |
| 23:48.22 | Carna | k |
| 23:48.26 | TiredMac | *lol* good point |
| 23:49.08 | Carna | How will I be able to buy it? How much will it cost? |
| 23:49.36 | mickeyl | via FIC directly. 350 USD |
| 23:49.44 | mickeyl | as for when... noone knows yet |
| 23:50.05 | Carna | np got no money now by now ;D |
| 23:50.17 | mickeyl | hehe, sounds familiar |
| 23:50.21 | Carna | yeah |
| 23:50.23 | mickeyl | no money for toys :/ |
| 23:50.34 | mickeyl | but lots of money for precious things for wifey |
| 23:50.35 | Carna | money for nothing cheeks for free |
| 23:50.36 | mickeyl | *sigh* |
| 23:50.43 | TiredMac | Shoes ? |
| 23:50.51 | mickeyl | shoes, bags, costumes |
| 23:50.56 | Carna | lol |
| 23:51.04 | TiredMac | Sounds familiar |
| 23:51.22 | Carna | proprietary shoes,bags,costumes ;D |
| 23:51.50 | Carna | so expensive |
| 23:52.24 | Carna | anyway ... since when this have been developing? |
| 23:54.19 | *** join/#openmoko imcsk8 (n=ichavero@148.229.1.11) |
| 23:54.37 | *** join/#openmoko kab (n=abarrera@nat.ti.uach.mx) |
| 23:54.56 | Carna | k |
| 23:55.26 | mickeyl | you can read LaF0rge and my weblog to get a rough idea |
| 23:55.35 | *** join/#openmoko lkcl_ (n=lkcl@5ac5f3e8.bb.sky.com) |
| 23:56.13 | ciastek | mickeyl, url? |
| 23:56.29 | mickeyl | http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/blog/ |
| 23:56.51 | mickeyl | and |
| 23:57.02 | mickeyl | http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/ |
| 23:57.09 | Carna | in my opinion the website should show more about the phone...photos of the right profile...and all the info you need when you look for a phone |
| 23:57.15 | ciastek | thank you mickeyl |
| 23:57.19 | mickeyl | np |
| 23:57.32 | mickeyl | Carna: i agree... but maybe the case is not finished? |
| 23:57.34 | Carna | anyway I like the logo very much and the content |
| 23:57.38 | Carna | ah ok ;D |
| 23:57.49 | Carna | @@- |
| 23:58.05 | ciastek | yes, logo is very nice indeed! |
