| 00:30.48 | *** join/#openmoko leo (n=hades@r190-64-83-235.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy) |
| 00:49.11 | *** join/#openmoko gambler (n=orion@203-206-34-5.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 00:52.00 | *** join/#openmoko z3cka (n=12345@nv-71-2-213-25.sta.embarqhsd.net) |
| 00:53.59 | z3cka | hello |
| 00:54.07 | z3cka | ? |
| 00:54.42 | z3cka | lots of people in here... and not much action hu? |
| 00:54.57 | careo | I think everyone's waiting to get their hands on a phone to play with' |
| 00:55.23 | thedaniel_ | it'd be awesome if there was an sdk with an emulator, kind of like you used to get for the hiptop |
| 00:56.14 | *** join/#openmoko rwhitby (n=rwhitby@nslu2-linux/rwhitby) |
| 00:56.37 | careo | yeah. I haven't picked one up yet, but I wonder how the stuff for the Nokia 770 or N800 would apply, both it and the Neo are ARM-based IIRC |
| 00:57.24 | thedaniel_ | i haven't used the 770 for more than a few minutes so i couldn't say. Does anyone know how big the production run of the neo will be? |
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| 01:08.29 | quants | probably "not enough" |
| 01:11.55 | spikebik1 | ~heh |
| 01:12.01 | apt | heh |
| 01:12.03 | spikebik1 | I have a nokia 770, haven't played with the emulator yet though |
| 01:12.12 | spikebik1 | Just got a 2GB card for it ;-) |
| 01:17.11 | z3cka | when will the openMoko be available? |
| 01:17.33 | spikebik1 | see topic |
| 01:18.18 | spikebik1 | I'm not sure I can wait, the motorola rokr e2/A1200 seem relatively similar and attractive |
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| 01:24.09 | quants | spikebik1: gtfo |
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| 01:25.42 | *** part/#openmoko morphex (n=morphex@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/morphex) |
| 01:26.14 | spikebik1 | ? |
| 01:26.35 | quants | you said the m word |
| 01:26.41 | thedaniel_ | "get the f out' |
| 01:27.15 | spikebik1 | oh, heh |
| 01:27.23 | spikebik1 | why is the m word bad? |
| 01:27.47 | quants | moto makes cool BT stuff but their fones sux |
| 01:27.50 | spikebik1 | I thought the openezx/motorola folks and the openmoko folks were working closely |
| 01:28.17 | spikebik1 | I'm all for the openmoko, and have been playing with the closest I can get in the meantime (gps + nokia 770) |
| 01:28.33 | quants | < zaurus |
| 01:28.39 | *** join/#openmoko baburr (n=sfg@host-72-174-14-27.gdj-co.client.bresnan.net) |
| 01:29.15 | spikebik1 | the rokr e2 seems to be getting quite positive reviews |
| 01:29.28 | spikebik1 | and of course the razr's seem hugely popular |
| 01:29.35 | spikebik1 | is there some evilness I'm missing? |
| 01:29.38 | quants | we need a pic of OZ peeing on nokia |
| 01:30.04 | quants | spikebik1: no I just hate moto phones |
| 01:30.36 | spikebik1 | any news on what the hacker lunchbox is? |
| 01:30.45 | *** join/#openmoko Virtuall (n=virtuall@who.is.virtuall.info) |
| 01:31.08 | baburr | so when can I buy this Neo1973? |
| 01:31.36 | WillySilly | baburr: sometime in Feb it looks like |
| 01:32.25 | quants | is there was no topic people could ask all the time |
| 01:32.31 | quants | oh wait... |
| 01:33.43 | WillySilly | Yeah, people dont like to read |
| 01:36.18 | jjazz | WillySilly: Those people probably should stay away from irc. |
| 01:36.47 | WillySilly | I would agree |
| 01:38.23 | baburr | Perhaps |
| 01:38.39 | baburr | "Neo1973 ETA for early access: February 2007" is too cryptic for newbs |
| 01:40.02 | jjazz | baburr: What about that is cryptic? |
| 01:40.52 | baburr | I am not sure what ETA for early access is... |
| 01:41.05 | baburr | admittedly, I am a newb |
| 01:42.31 | baburr | it is hard to tell if a newb can buy it in Feb... or only the uber smart phone people |
| 01:46.34 | baburr | Well, anyway thanks for the info... I am excited about an open platform smart phone :) |
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| 02:18.42 | cbpage | looking at what harold said the work on openmoko should help openezx out a lot too |
| 02:19.47 | douglee | Out of curiosity, what bootloader openmoko use? |
| 02:25.11 | Psi | i think its u-boot |
| 02:26.10 | douglee | cool |
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| 03:27.35 | berto- | hi everyone. i know this is such a premature question, but anyone know when the not-so-oval version of this phone will be released? ;) |
| 03:28.32 | WillySilly | berto-: try reading the topic |
| 03:30.46 | berto- | WillySilly: try reading the question: i.e. when's the next rev of the hardware disign? |
| 03:31.02 | berto- | err, design. |
| 03:31.56 | WillySilly | After Feb 2007 |
| 03:32.19 | careo | I'd assume after rev 1 makes them fantastically wealthy |
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| 04:28.14 | aloril | no multitouch :-( |
| 04:29.09 | aloril | what will hardware do if you do touch screen in multiple locations? |
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| 04:50.40 | careo | probably what my laptop does, ignore the second touch |
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| 05:35.49 | aloril | is that done on hardware or is it software thing? |
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| 06:55.25 | aloril | http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/RDM.Tech.Q1.07/4DD0941D-9097-4FAE-A3BB-29DA5CA07199.html |
| 06:55.27 | aloril | "When a phone is unlocked it loses its privileges on a provider's data network. An unlocked phone can make GSM calls and send basic SMS. No MMS, no Internet, no iTS. Apple would either have to reverse engineer a method to gain access to the data network (unlikely as most data networks require SSL-level security to access) or it would have to offer something different." |
| 06:55.56 | aloril | wow, USA has it quite bad... |
| 06:58.25 | Tv | that's telco FUD |
| 06:58.38 | Tv | MMS is perfectly doable with unlocked phones, if the operator isn't being an asshole |
| 06:59.18 | aloril | of course, and Internet trough GRPS/etc.. too but is reality really that operators forbid these? |
| 06:59.46 | xkr47 | you can even do MMS on pc machines |
| 06:59.47 | Tv | well some US operator might |
| 06:59.56 | xkr47 | afaik |
| 07:00.04 | Tv | all I'm saying .fi is historically 100% unlocked phones, locking is a new thing over here |
| 07:00.08 | Tv | and we get plenty of services |
| 07:00.33 | xkr47 | locked as in operator-locked ? |
| 07:00.36 | Tv | yeah |
| 07:00.40 | xkr47 | ah yeah |
| 07:00.53 | aloril | Tv: yup, that why I was amazed by that claim that you can use internet (over GPRS for example) in USA with unlocked phone |
| 07:01.05 | Tv | aloril: you mean "cannot"? |
| 07:01.22 | Tv | heck, some operator might prevent unlocked phones from operating at all |
| 07:01.22 | aloril | s/can use/cannot use/ |
| 07:01.27 | Tv | don't give money to bad telcos |
| 07:09.46 | xkr47 | all telcos are bad, it's just a matter of to which extent they are ;) |
| 07:11.14 | *** join/#openmoko Hackmo (n=sean13@82-41-80-10.cable.ubr01.dund.blueyonder.co.uk) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
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| 07:15.03 | careo | t-mobile unlocked my old t610 for me and it kept working fine |
| 07:15.50 | careo | haven't tried with the nokia n80 that I bought unlocked yet, but I see no reason it'd be different |
| 07:17.02 | aloril | so its not true for all providers at least (in USA) |
| 07:17.34 | benJIman | people seen this thing? http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/01/11/seamless_shows_s-xgen/ |
| 07:18.15 | careo | aloril, I'd bet not. especially not when they'll unlock your phone if asked nicely |
| 07:18.43 | careo | (and lie about going on holiday to thailand or somewhere like that) |
| 07:19.33 | aloril | hmm.. I wonder if Nokia ever switches from Symbian, which one it would select: Windows or Linux? I bet Linux |
| 07:19.41 | aloril | careo: hehe |
| 07:19.45 | careo | I suppose I should actually get GPRS service again and find out... heh |
| 07:19.49 | benJIman | aloril: n700 and n800 already run linux |
| 07:19.55 | careo | aloril: considering the n800 and 770 are linux, I'd bet that |
| 07:21.59 | aloril | n770 and n800 are a bit different than their phones, but yes, I agree |
| 07:22.58 | careo | good times coming I reckon |
| 07:23.13 | aloril | motorola + nokia + any phone using openmoko + other linux phones -> windows is kept in small market share and Linux will have huge share |
| 07:23.47 | careo | I'm eager to see what comes of trolltech's greenphone platform. always was more of a Qt fan than GTK |
| 07:23.56 | aloril | linux already has bigger share and I bet it will increase its share faster than windows (if windows even manages to increase its share ;-) |
| 07:23.57 | careo | but that's getting into the realm of VI vs Emacs |
| 07:24.15 | cbpage | i haven't heard of tmobile locking out gprs on unlocked phones... considering they'll unlock it for you! |
| 07:24.27 | cbpage | and t-mo is pretty much the only other gsm carrier of note in the us |
| 07:24.54 | *** join/#openmoko highvoltage (n=jaagaan@ubuntu/member/highvoltage) |
| 07:24.57 | careo | if it's cingular that'll do that crap, then I'd suggest voting with your dollar |
| 07:30.06 | cbpage | remember all the at&t wireless stores that changed to cinglar? they're changing back, oddly |
| 07:31.50 | careo | yeah. now that AT&T bought one of the baby bells |
| 07:51.22 | *** join/#openmoko altri (n=jbuchana@dorm-127.subnet-205.amherst.edu) |
| 07:52.47 | altri | \join #debian |
| 07:54.42 | *** join/#openmoko orf (n=chatzill@wireless-187.subnet-231.amherst.edu) |
| 07:54.53 | orf | HEY SO WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK ABOUT HITLER???? |
| 07:57.36 | benJIman | cbpage: why would they block unlocked phones, they're only forcing you to use a competitor? |
| 07:57.40 | benJIman | seems like strange logic |
| 08:01.37 | yacc | benJIman: Well, if they control the devices they control two layers of the pricing: the basic pricing for time & data, plus what you can do in what way. Basically the Sidekick/Hiptop business model (which is crazy without a flatrate, because these stupid devices do "swap out" data over GPRS to the servers, so the user has no control at all over data usage). |
| 08:03.00 | benJIman | still if you have a phone on cingular and you unlock it and they ban you they're only forcing you to move to a competitor |
| 08:08.29 | yacc | Well, that's how the PHB-brains work. |
| 08:08.43 | buz | mhh the seamless thing costs 1500USD |
| 08:08.48 | buz | WTF would buy that |
| 08:09.46 | yacc | I remember how T-Mobile (at) reacted when they learned how much mileage I was able to get from the AIM client. Don't think that they envisioned anyone would be able to do data entry, or more pressing to them send sms via AIM ;) |
| 08:09.49 | *** join/#openmoko jtokash2 (n=jtokash@c-24-5-0-4.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 08:10.01 | yacc | Well, it was just level2 support tech. |
| 08:12.12 | buz | if it can transmit data, you can run tcp ip over it |
| 08:12.12 | buz | somehow |
| 08:12.59 | buz | quite surely it will be pita for most things and slow, but it's possible |
| 08:28.21 | *** join/#openmoko Zamolf (n=dani@87.19.157.85) |
| 08:28.31 | Zamolf | hi |
| 08:28.34 | Zamolf | i'm new |
| 08:28.55 | yacc | buz: pita and too slow makes it unworkable for many things. |
| 08:29.00 | Zamolf | do you know when open moko will be out? |
| 08:31.28 | *** join/#openmoko xerom (n=jack@81.193.131.115) |
| 08:35.28 | Zamolf | tnks psi |
| 08:35.37 | Zamolf | the os will be debian? |
| 08:35.57 | so_solid_moo | openembedded |
| 08:36.00 | Psi | i dont know, but i doubt it |
| 08:36.04 | Psi | ah, there you go :) |
| 08:37.14 | yacc | Zamolf: February is the current ETA, see topic. |
| 08:37.19 | aloril | confirmed at highest level: no 3rd part applications for iPhone: http://apple.slashdot.org/apple/07/01/12/0430200.shtml |
| 08:40.02 | Psi | as if that will stop anybody |
| 08:40.47 | aloril | hehe |
| 08:40.58 | so_solid_moo | i would bet it's pretty difficult |
| 08:42.11 | Psi | hehe you right, no one will bother, everyone will the skill to actually do it will have already bought a neo :P |
| 08:42.29 | aloril | however, what does this mean for average user? in practice can you really make commercial program without Apple blessing it |
| 08:42.51 | so_solid_moo | i wouldn't be surprised if the iphone only runs apple-signed binaries |
| 08:42.55 | aloril | free programs, yeah those with skill can do that and I guess (as many others have) that eventually it will Linux anyway |
| 08:43.01 | so_solid_moo | i very much doubt it's at all easy to put software on there |
| 08:43.26 | aloril | but.. that will be minority I suspect, for majority it probably means just that: no 3rd party apps |
| 08:43.33 | aloril | (except Apple blessed ones) |
| 08:43.54 | *** join/#openmoko mikesh (n=mikesh@feldconf.feld.cvut.cz) |
| 08:58.34 | yacc | so_solid_moo: It's the shared blessings of Apple and Cingular. So anything that makes you save money on your phone bill is out per definition. |
| 09:00.14 | xkr47 | yo.. is the battery of moko removable ? |
| 09:00.30 | xkr47 | or is there a "reset" button which does the same ?-) |
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| 09:12.05 | CM | xkr47: I'm guessing the battery is removable since the sd slot is under it |
| 09:14.02 | stefan_schmidt | xkr47: Battery is removable |
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| 09:35.39 | xkr47 | ok nice |
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| 09:46.38 | azazel | hi all |
| 09:47.14 | azazel | any news about the price? |
| 09:49.14 | *** join/#openmoko rejon (n=rejon@202.39.243.251) |
| 09:49.50 | Stephmw | no new information |
| 09:49.51 | koen | $350 is the latest news |
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| 09:54.46 | Destructo | what wieless compannies can we use eventually ? |
| 09:55.10 | koen | anyone that uses GSM I'd say |
| 09:55.15 | koen | unless you're from the US |
| 09:55.22 | koen | in which case you're screwed |
| 09:55.50 | Destructo | nyc .. damn |
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| 10:04.53 | Stephmw | koen: at least it's not like the Cingular/Apple deal - I guarantee they'll simlock that baby |
| 10:07.33 | rejon | I'm excited about how could get openmoko platform running on iphone |
| 10:09.00 | *** join/#openmoko Corical (n=addy@196.36.116.215) |
| 10:09.29 | Tv | umm, what changes do you have in the US of getting just a SIM you can use? |
| 10:09.43 | Tv | I mean, getting a throwaway phone is just money wasted, acceptable but unwanted. |
| 10:10.07 | Stephmw | you can likely just get sim for use on a datacard |
| 10:10.25 | koen | the land of the free |
| 10:10.40 | Stephmw | $free$ |
| 10:10.55 | Tv | the land of the free monopolies |
| 10:11.21 | Tv | (after a mail-in rebate) |
| 10:11.35 | koen | I wonder how fast I get put on the 'watch list' if I request all cadastral and topographic info for .nl |
| 10:11.54 | koen | it's legal and they should give it to me, but somehow I doubt it will be that easy :) |
| 10:12.02 | Tv | I'm spending over half my time in the US these days, and I'm quickly getting fed up with the mobile phone industry over there. |
| 10:12.57 | Tv | and so far I've chosen to just use my existing mobile and roaming SIM to work around the whole damn thing |
| 10:13.11 | Tv | but I need to get a US SIM soon |
| 10:13.26 | Stephmw | must be getting pretty expensive |
| 10:13.26 | Tv | preferably one I can put in a Neo |
| 10:13.36 | Tv | I don't talk that much |
| 10:13.46 | xkr47 | hehe |
| 10:13.48 | Tv | so far the biggest cost is living with the suck of them always assuming everyone has a local number |
| 10:13.53 | xkr47 | there might not be an apple iphone after all |
| 10:14.07 | Tv | I guess they'll rename it to "apple phone" |
| 10:14.19 | koen | powerbook |
| 10:14.20 | xkr47 | or iMobile or something |
| 10:14.24 | koen | phonebook pro |
| 10:14.32 | Tv | macphone |
| 10:14.41 | koen | phonetunes |
| 10:14.50 | xkr47 | pretty strange that apple chose to go ahead with the name while they had no rights to it |
| 10:14.54 | xkr47 | maybe they think it's good publicity |
| 10:14.56 | koen | Airphone extreme |
| 10:22.00 | *** join/#openmoko Sencer (n=Sencer@dslb-084-063-050-111.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 10:23.05 | Sencer | is it out yet? ^^ |
| 10:23.57 | Tv | Sencer: please read topic |
| 10:24.22 | Stephmw | Sencer: Yes! Yes! Yes! ... nah, only pulling your leg ;-) |
| 10:24.26 | Sencer | yes, I was trying to be humorous. ;) |
| 10:24.45 | Tv | you should have asked about bluetooth |
| 10:24.56 | Sencer | does it have bluetoothß |
| 10:24.58 | Sencer | ? |
| 10:25.03 | Stephmw | or about the diesel V12 |
| 10:25.21 | Stephmw | we're still trying to convince stefan_schmidt that it needs a ship engine |
| 10:27.03 | Stephmw | koen: what? you don't think it needs this built-in? http://www.ultimatestupidity.com/pics/1/diesel/ |
| 10:27.21 | Tv | maybe it'll fit in the SD slot under the battery |
| 10:27.27 | xorAxAx | Stephmw: why him? |
| 10:27.53 | Tv | hehe, Wärtsilä, I'm living in a building that used to be theirs |
| 10:29.15 | koen | Stephmw: no, but it needs that as an add-on |
| 10:29.24 | Stephmw | xorAxAx: because he can pass that suggestion on for v2 |
| 10:31.29 | xorAxAx | Stephmw: why? |
| 10:35.33 | Stephmw | xorAxAx: 'because' :-) seriously though, it's because from the chatter on here, he has a little more time than either mickey or LaF0rge for these things - my perception could be off though |
| 10:35.57 | Tv | I think they should just push out an qemu-worthy sdk when they have the chance |
| 10:36.02 | Tv | whether we have hardware or not |
| 10:36.12 | Corical | i want an OpenMoko badly .. wish our networks here in South Africa would get it. |
| 10:36.20 | Corical | i have my doubts .. |
| 10:36.21 | Tv | (and yes, I'm trying to make generic openembedded things work as we speak) |
| 10:36.49 | Tv | Corical: all you need is a sim that'll work in any phone; if your market doesn't have that, you're screwed anyway ;) |
| 10:37.31 | xorAxAx | Stephmw: he is not involved at all, is he? |
| 10:38.01 | Corical | thx Tv .. it shouldn't be a problem .. |
| 10:40.12 | highvoltage | Corical: where in .za are you? |
| 10:40.21 | Corical | Jhb, highvoltage. |
| 10:40.30 | highvoltage | ah. I'm in CT |
| 10:40.53 | Corical | cool, so whats the steps to get an OpenMoko ? |
| 10:41.23 | xorAxAx | highvoltage is a werid town name :) |
| 10:41.27 | highvoltage | write mtn, vodacom, cell c and virgin every day? |
| 10:41.28 | xorAxAx | s/ri/ir/ |
| 10:41.38 | highvoltage | heh |
| 10:41.46 | highvoltage | very energetic town |
| 10:42.00 | xorAxAx | ah, that wasnt the answrer |
| 10:42.32 | Corical | who ever said it's a town name ? |
| 10:42.45 | Corical | in context .. |
| 10:43.13 | Corical | highvoltage, I'm located in Johannesburg, Gauteng, South Africa. |
| 10:43.15 | Corical | better ? |
| 10:43.55 | highvoltage | Corical: sure. although I understood you first time :) |
| 10:44.09 | Corical | indeed you did, jsut a couple of apes, that didn't .. |
| 10:44.46 | xorAxAx | Corical: ape is a bot, and i am not an ape :-p |
| 10:44.50 | Corical | Needs to be spoon fed .. it appears. |
| 10:46.08 | koen | Tv: http://openembedded.org <- SDK for openmoko, available right now |
| 10:46.40 | koen | it will not get you the moko widgets, but it will be how the preferred buildsystem will look like |
| 10:53.46 | *** join/#openmoko apokryphos (n=francis@87-194-86-227.bethere.co.uk) |
| 10:54.06 | Tv | koen: yeah I know |
| 10:54.12 | Tv | koen: I'm playing with that part already |
| 10:54.27 | Tv | koen: triggered funky qemu failures with qemuarm |
| 10:54.31 | Tv | trying qemux86 next |
| 10:56.22 | xkr47 | how hard has it been getting the gtk working on moko? |
| 10:56.51 | xkr47 | Tv, record a flash and send to the qemu team ;) |
| 11:03.52 | *** join/#openmoko mikesh (n=mikesh@feldconf.feld.cvut.cz) |
| 11:10.27 | Psi | wonder how much room there will be inside the neo |
| 11:10.40 | Psi | for err.. mods :P |
| 11:12.39 | xkr47 | they should sell a variant back cover that is 5mm thick and thus has 4mm extra empty space on the inside :) |
| 11:13.08 | *** join/#openmoko xerom (n=jack@81.193.132.74) |
| 11:13.11 | *** join/#openmoko sean13 (n=sean13@82-41-80-10.cable.ubr01.dund.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 11:13.19 | xkr47 | then you could embed your favourite unpowered usb device or whatever there :) |
| 11:14.58 | azazel | what's multitouch by the way? |
| 11:17.21 | Sencer | azazel: look at the screenshots down there: http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/smartphones/fics-linuxbased-smartphone-213016.php |
| 11:18.34 | azazel | Sencer: many thanks! |
| 11:19.51 | koen | and the fic won't have it |
| 11:21.02 | azazel | mmm... but the article is about it... |
| 11:21.16 | Psi | version 1 wont have it |
| 11:28.55 | Sencer | won't have it? Oh, completely missed that... |
| 11:29.39 | koen | see topic |
| 11:29.40 | azazel | Sencer: the channel title states it... we will see |
| 11:30.17 | Sencer | Gah. I must have read it 5 times and I'm still seeing new things in there... |
| 11:30.20 | Sencer | thanks and sorry |
| 11:31.14 | koen | it gets updated from time to time :) |
| 11:33.55 | xkr47 | will gtk apps compile directly or almost directly to openmoko ? |
| 11:34.54 | koen | depending on the buildsystem used it will compile cleanly |
| 11:35.04 | koen | it will however not use the mokowidgets by default |
| 11:35.23 | xkr47 | do they replace gtk widgets partially or completely ? |
| 11:35.35 | koen | iirc they supplement them |
| 11:35.45 | xkr47 | I guess moko comes with a custom gtk theme ? |
| 11:37.39 | xkr47 | would it be remotely possible to get a tentative list of mokowidgets is supposed to be included? |
| 11:37.54 | koen | no idea |
| 11:39.39 | Psi | hm.. wonder how well doom will run on it :P |
| 11:40.01 | xkr47 | especially psdoom ;--) |
| 11:40.31 | xkr47 | multiplayer psdoom.. "aaaargh you killed my X! |
| 11:40.53 | koen | did the indt opensource their stylus doom yet? |
| 11:42.11 | xkr47 | multitouch could be nice in games as well.. open & close door, etc :) |
| 11:42.27 | Sencer | or slap enemies... |
| 11:42.32 | xkr47 | ;) |
| 12:10.40 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (i=foobar@dslb-084-057-180-137.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 12:41.12 | *** join/#openmoko altri (n=jbuchana@dorm-127.subnet-205.amherst.edu) |
| 13:12.00 | *** join/#openmoko scode (n=scode@hyperion.scode.org) |
| 13:26.44 | *** join/#openmoko rejon (n=rejon@140.109.175.228) |
| 13:39.33 | buz | mh gizmodo claims its multitouch? |
| 13:40.17 | koen | gizmode claims a lot |
| 13:40.26 | koen | digg claims the bluetooth dongle can do wifi |
| 13:40.33 | yacc | What did the mail from sean claim? |
| 13:40.53 | koen | sean only said he worked on multitouch |
| 13:42.20 | buz | oh the topic has changed |
| 13:42.41 | buz | religious scripture shouldnt change you know |
| 13:44.42 | koen | only retranslated to match current interpretations :) |
| 13:49.11 | *** join/#openmoko altri (n=jbuchana@dorm-127.subnet-205.amherst.edu) |
| 13:50.27 | xkr47 | ;) |
| 13:54.22 | *** join/#openmoko gw280 (n=george@vm.gwright.org.uk) |
| 14:00.38 | *** join/#openmoko apokryphos (n=francis@87-194-86-227.bethere.co.uk) |
| 14:09.39 | *** join/#openmoko Sketch (n=Sketch@208.167.227.41) |
| 14:15.34 | *** join/#openmoko Laibsch (n=Laibsch@87.193.68.139) |
| 14:24.08 | *** join/#openmoko darmou (n=darmou@ppp194-244.lns3.mel4.internode.on.net) |
| 14:29.21 | aloril | multitouch might be possible: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2006-December/000576.html |
| 14:30.35 | *** join/#openmoko dneary (n=dneary@mne69-9-88-163-116-163.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 14:30.42 | buz | http://www.invair.de/ another company thats some 20km from here |
| 14:30.42 | koen | you need to connect more hardware, adapt tslib and more importantly X and gtk |
| 14:30.45 | buz | never even heard of them |
| 14:31.03 | buz | sounds like neo v3 |
| 14:31.25 | koen | they can always do the hardware bit in v2 |
| 14:31.48 | buz | i rather see wifi and cam in v2 |
| 14:32.07 | aloril | koen: connect more hardware? oh.. I got hopes up it was 'only' "... a considerable driver effort." |
| 14:32.14 | Sencer | invair - I remember seeing and trying one on the cebit 2002 |
| 14:32.15 | buz | and perhaps a faster cpu, but we really can't judge that before we see the device running |
| 14:32.35 | buz | looks to be in the road ballpark |
| 14:32.35 | Sencer | interesting naviation concept, only a scrollwheel and 3 buttons |
| 14:32.38 | buz | announce, then dont ship |
| 14:32.43 | Sencer | but it wasn't exciting back then |
| 14:32.47 | buz | no touchscreen? |
| 14:32.53 | Sencer | no, not back then |
| 14:33.35 | buz | looks like a palm with scrollwheel |
| 14:34.08 | buz | somehow, i cant understand why anyone would design smartphones in switzerland of all places |
| 14:34.51 | koen | better stick to watches and knives |
| 14:35.00 | buz | and banking |
| 14:35.42 | Sencer | haha, while I was looking for pictures of the invair, I found this: http://www.handykoelsch.de/galerie/cebit02b/DSCF0046 |
| 14:36.05 | Sencer | if apple is 5 years ahead of the time today, I guess sonyericsson was 10 years ahead back then ^^ |
| 14:40.30 | Sencer | Invair Firewalker: http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS3614581459.html that was it |
| 14:42.19 | Sencer | you entered text by scrolling (via wheel) the vertical bar across the three row keyboard. and then hit one of the big keys, on the side, depending on which character you wanted |
| 14:42.29 | Sencer | it was as cumbersome as it sounded |
| 14:47.03 | Sencer | duuuthe only thing worse was this: http://home.debitel.net/user/handykoelsch/cebit02b/DSCF0040.jpg |
| 14:47.29 | Sencer | it was a similar concept IIRC, but you had to move the whole finger |
| 14:47.43 | *** join/#openmoko vargr (n=vargr@dsl092-109-027.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 14:48.17 | Sencer | (the last one was actually an input device was regular PCs) |
| 14:56.59 | mickeyl | morning |
| 14:57.25 | mickeyl | koen: do you have any zaurus handy? |
| 14:57.29 | mickeyl | or any device at all |
| 14:57.39 | mickeyl | koen: could you run some fstests if you have a chance? |
| 14:57.42 | mickeyl | i'd like to compare raw numbers |
| 14:57.49 | mickeyl | (and none of my PDAs is in workable state) |
| 14:58.40 | *** join/#openmoko Ryushin (i=proxy@windwalker.openinnovations.com) |
| 15:00.20 | *** join/#openmoko apokryphos (n=francis@87-194-86-227.bethere.co.uk) |
| 15:00.41 | aloril | koen: is it possible to add those missing hardware connections needed for multitouch by soldering? |
| 15:01.47 | aloril | (or even better: have those connections out of box despite having no software support for it) |
| 15:03.32 | *** join/#openmoko [g2] (n=g2@nslu2-linux/g2) |
| 15:05.22 | apokryphos | is video playback possible for the new neo? |
| 15:05.40 | mickeyl | that remains to be seen. personally i doubt that given the performance I've seen on s3c2410 |
| 15:05.49 | mickeyl | but maybe some assembler handoptimization can do wonders... |
| 15:06.07 | apokryphos | mickeyl: by the way, you have the +s channel mode set |
| 15:06.10 | apokryphos | hm, I see |
| 15:06.22 | mickeyl | remind me... what does +s do again? |
| 15:06.50 | apokryphos | means "secret" |
| 15:06.56 | mickeyl | oh, heh |
| 15:06.58 | mickeyl | should turn that off |
| 15:07.01 | apokryphos | i.e. if someone else does a /whois someone, it won't show tha tchannel in the list |
| 15:07.46 | apokryphos | yeah, you can also /msg chanserv set mlock #openmoko -s to enforce the option |
| 15:07.48 | hrw|work | hi mickeyl |
| 15:08.01 | mickeyl | yo hrw|work |
| 15:08.01 | apokryphos | i.e. so it won't be changed in a Freenode reset or something |
| 15:08.11 | *** mode/#openmoko [-s] by ChanServ |
| 15:08.16 | mickeyl | here we are |
| 15:08.25 | apokryphos | cool |
| 15:11.09 | mickeyl | xkr47: getting Gtk+ to work on the Neo was a piece of cake. Ironing out the massive amount of performance problems is a tough job though... I'm working on that atm. |
| 15:11.20 | mickeyl | xkr47: moko widgets will complement Gtk+ |
| 15:11.30 | mickeyl | xkr47: stuff like: |
| 15:12.03 | mickeyl | MokoApplication |
| 15:12.05 | mickeyl | MokoPanedWindow |
| 15:12.09 | mickeyl | MokoDialogWindow |
| 15:12.18 | mickeyl | MokoFingerWheel |
| 15:12.21 | mickeyl | MokoFingerToolBox |
| 15:12.26 | *** join/#openmoko jthomas (n=jthomas@hotel.sierrabravo.net) |
| 15:12.29 | mickeyl | ... |
| 15:12.52 | mickeyl | rule of thumb was: |
| 15:13.01 | mickeyl | whenever possible, don't invent a new widget, but tweak the styling |
| 15:13.30 | mickeyl | but since gtk's styling caps are pretty inconsistent and lacking, i had to invent more widgets to get the look and feel done than I'd wanted to |
| 15:13.30 | jthomas | Good morning all! Does anyone know if the Neo1973 phone can send Text Messages (SMS)? I would think so, but I am not sure, and its pretty much the way i communicate.... |
| 15:13.55 | mickeyl | jthomas: yes, text sms will be possible. |
| 15:14.04 | mickeyl | mms is not planned, but may be added by community |
| 15:14.10 | jthomas | good to know! How about T9/predictive text? |
| 15:14.27 | jthomas | mms? multimedia...? |
| 15:14.57 | hrw|work | multimedia message system |
| 15:15.02 | Sencer | T9 would have licence issues, no? |
| 15:15.17 | mickeyl | yes, t9 is copyrighted |
| 15:15.19 | jthomas | T9 itself might, yeah, but something similar |
| 15:15.20 | mickeyl | and probably patendet |
| 15:15.37 | mickeyl | i hope once the phone is out we can come up with something similar |
| 15:15.38 | buz | is it just me or is running linuxvserver on openmoko somewhat weird? |
| 15:16.00 | jthomas | although if it can have a full QWERTY keybd on screen, t9 is not so needed |
| 15:16.09 | jthomas | what does linuxvserver do? |
| 15:16.10 | darmou | hey hrw|work |
| 15:16.12 | hrw|work | jthomas: t9 is must have |
| 15:16.20 | *** part/#openmoko rejon (n=rejon@140.109.175.228) |
| 15:16.20 | hrw|work | hi darmou |
| 15:16.26 | buz | wtf would one need t9 if you can have a full on screen keyboard |
| 15:16.34 | buz | i never use bloody t9 on my p900 |
| 15:16.40 | mickeyl | well |
| 15:16.49 | hrw|work | buz: try to write 300 chars long message using one hand |
| 15:16.50 | mickeyl | we have that concept called finger apps |
| 15:17.08 | mickeyl | and there's no way you can use a qwerty on 2.8" with a finger |
| 15:17.13 | jthomas | t9 is important, sure. but something similar would be fine, or a keybd would do the trick too. just not as fast, trying to hit the right key on a small screen |
| 15:17.16 | buz | oh you can |
| 15:17.17 | mickeyl | so for finger apps it might make sense to go T9 |
| 15:17.17 | darmou | I loved the way steve jobs in the keynote stumbled over trying to input stuff into the on screen keyboard . Persoanlly i would prefer a stylus to using finder. |
| 15:17.44 | darmou | finder=finger |
| 15:17.50 | buz | i'm still thinking about good predictive text entry |
| 15:17.56 | buz | something way beyond t9 |
| 15:18.05 | jthomas | thats what we need, it needn't be T9 proper |
| 15:18.07 | buz | more in the league of tengo.com or so |
| 15:18.12 | jthomas | coool |
| 15:18.37 | mickeyl | tengo? |
| 15:18.38 | buz | there's a review on osnews, with high praise |
| 15:18.38 | buz | they say they achieve 75wpm |
| 15:18.42 | buz | which is mighty impressive |
| 15:18.43 | jthomas | is it FLOSS? |
| 15:18.52 | buz | freeware/shareware on winmobile |
| 15:18.56 | yacc | jthomas: T9 would only make sense if you had a keyboard? |
| 15:19.08 | jthomas | [tengo.net] |
| 15:19.11 | buz | well you can use t9 on onscreen virtual keyboard |
| 15:19.29 | jthomas | T9 would make sense for a number pad; make less sense with a keybd but a keybd might be a PITA |
| 15:20.06 | buz | tengo thumb looks especially what i would like |
| 15:20.30 | buz | but a grammar engine is a major PITA to write |
| 15:20.45 | Sencer | given that SMS was brought up - will it be posible (with moderate effort) to replace sending SMS over GSM, with SMS over the net with providers that offer HTTP-APIs etc.? |
| 15:20.48 | Sencer | I am guessing it should be |
| 15:20.49 | buz | and good bayesian db would use insane amounts of storage |
| 15:21.41 | Sencer | I am talking about services like http://mobilant.de/ |
| 15:21.53 | azazel | mmm... dasher? |
| 15:22.20 | mickeyl | i know about dasher, but honestly, i just can't make sense out of it |
| 15:22.23 | mickeyl | perhaps i need more practice |
| 15:22.33 | so_solid_moo | dasher is rather good when you get into it |
| 15:23.25 | azazel | yes...it's good, especially when you train it |
| 15:24.46 | aloril | why not http://www.strout.net/info/ideas/hexinput.html ? |
| 15:24.49 | buz | dasher is patiently weird |
| 15:24.53 | buz | even on a tablet pc |
| 15:25.01 | xorAxAx | hehe |
| 15:25.04 | buz | and boy is it slow when you scale the window up |
| 15:25.27 | *** join/#openmoko _parmenides_ (n=hades@r190-64-78-185.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy) |
| 15:26.09 | azazel | it's slow? it seems speedy enougth to me, much more then T9 |
| 15:26.47 | azazel | and it's ready to drive writing in many languages |
| 15:27.01 | buz | mhh tengo seems to be some sort of T6 (!) on steroids |
| 15:27.54 | buz | i bet you could use t6 with a thumb |
| 15:28.46 | *** join/#openmoko no0tic (n=no0tic@unaffiliated/no0tic) |
| 15:29.25 | buz | azazel: slow as in sucks cpu |
| 15:30.00 | azazel | we will see |
| 15:30.38 | azazel | it has been already ported to many platforms |
| 15:31.23 | mitsuhiko | is the gui mockup final? |
| 15:31.35 | mitsuhiko | i think there is much which should be improved |
| 15:31.41 | mitsuhiko | for example get rid of the scrollbars |
| 15:32.07 | benJIman | mickeyl: well you can have a thumb-querty keyboard like the zaurus has, I can get pretty impressive typing speeds on that with two thumbs |
| 15:35.15 | *** join/#openmoko ninHer (n=ninHer@unaffiliated/ninher) |
| 15:35.52 | darmou | yeah I love the thumb keyboard also. It is nice to have a pocketop though as I can touch type on it |
| 15:36.58 | aloril | mitsuhiko: why? sure you can do scrolling without it, but with scrollbar can move instantly to any position in big list |
| 15:37.59 | mitsuhiko | alphaone: on a 2.5" big screen the scrollbar will be very small |
| 15:38.08 | mitsuhiko | i know for example that i never use it on the ipaq |
| 15:38.15 | mitsuhiko | you are much faster with the scroll buttons |
| 15:38.28 | mitsuhiko | s/use/used/ |
| 15:38.28 | benJIman | Who even uses scrollbars on a PC, noone |
| 15:38.35 | benJIman | that's why mousewheels are popular |
| 15:38.40 | Sencer | it's an indicator of page size |
| 15:38.43 | apokryphos | yeah |
| 15:38.47 | mitsuhiko | yeah. so why not drop them? |
| 15:38.47 | Sencer | what would you replace it with? |
| 15:38.52 | mitsuhiko | Sencer: but an indicator could be much smaller |
| 15:39.01 | benJIman | Sencer: target at top and bottom of page for autoscrolling |
| 15:39.07 | mitsuhiko | Sencer: an indicator |
| 15:39.10 | mitsuhiko | but not a whole scrollbar |
| 15:39.12 | Sencer | how do you see the size and osition within a page? |
| 15:39.14 | benJIman | Sencer: press finger on the target and it will scroll |
| 15:39.22 | Sencer | osition=position |
| 15:39.29 | benJIman | Sencer: just have a 1pixel indicator at the side |
| 15:39.43 | mitsuhiko | Sencer: for example a scrollable element could have a border and the border is the indicator |
| 15:39.51 | mitsuhiko | with a small running "virtual led" in it |
| 15:39.56 | mitsuhiko | maybe 4 px wide |
| 15:40.01 | mitsuhiko | like on the ipod |
| 15:40.36 | apokryphos | out of interest, how can a product be coming out in a month that hasn't confirmed all features yet? |
| 15:41.07 | mitsuhiko | apokryphos: which features are missing? |
| 15:41.15 | mitsuhiko | the specs look pretty complete too me |
| 15:41.16 | mickeyl | the hardware is set in stone by now |
| 15:41.22 | mickeyl | the software is not |
| 15:41.30 | mickeyl | but that's because it's an open source project more than everything else |
| 15:41.35 | mickeyl | release early, release often |
| 15:41.36 | mickeyl | :D |
| 15:41.38 | no0tic | why there isn't a wi-fi inyerface? |
| 15:41.40 | apokryphos | I see |
| 15:41.45 | mickeyl | uah, not the wifi question again |
| 15:41.45 | no0tic | hi all ;) |
| 15:41.47 | mitsuhiko | no0tic: and why isn't there usb 2.0? |
| 15:41.57 | no0tic | mickeyl, sorry :) |
| 15:41.58 | mitsuhiko | those are the two questions i havee |
| 15:42.06 | apokryphos | mitsuhiko: wondering that too |
| 15:42.13 | no0tic | mitsuhiko, me too |
| 15:42.14 | mickeyl | wifi: too much power consumption, no open chipsets yet |
| 15:42.15 | apokryphos | usb 1.1 is painfully ancient |
| 15:42.26 | mickeyl | usb2: because the SOC doesn't handle it |
| 15:42.36 | mitsuhiko | mickeyl: SOC? |
| 15:42.41 | mickeyl | (system on chip, main CPU) |
| 15:42.47 | apokryphos | :/ |
| 15:42.51 | mitsuhiko | ... |
| 15:42.59 | mickeyl | as to why didn't we use a better SoC... we wanted to concentrate on affordable hardware for v1 |
| 15:43.07 | Sencer | and that was a good thing! |
| 15:43.16 | Sencer | imho |
| 15:43.23 | mickeyl | imho as well |
| 15:43.27 | mjr | I agree that affordability is good; usb 1.1 is just fine for most stuff |
| 15:43.29 | mickeyl | the point is getting a developer platform |
| 15:43.33 | mitsuhiko | yeah |
| 15:43.39 | mickeyl | fancy hardware will come later |
| 15:43.39 | apokryphos | anywhere I can see more screenies than those on http://www.openmoko.com/press/index.html ? |
| 15:43.40 | mitsuhiko | looks like i have to buy rev1 and 2 |
| 15:43.40 | aloril | I do use scroll bar on long document sometimes |
| 15:43.44 | mjr | (and besides, bluetooth! ;) |
| 15:43.51 | apokryphos | w00t |
| 15:44.11 | apokryphos | I'd also miss no camera, but hey |
| 15:44.15 | mitsuhiko | but i think for the gui it's possible to do much more then the current mockups |
| 15:44.21 | no0tic | will be available outside USA? |
| 15:44.33 | mjr | no0tic, will be sold direct worldwide |
| 15:45.49 | aloril | apokryphos: with powered USB you can use almost any dicital camera as mass storage (or trough ptp): way better than any mobile ;-) |
| 15:46.15 | aloril | wifi available this way too |
| 15:46.24 | apokryphos | yeah, my digital cam has 2 gig card |
| 15:46.29 | apokryphos | but I don't always have it on me |
| 15:46.34 | mitsuhiko | btw. is that gps included still up to date? |
| 15:46.46 | *** join/#openmoko terrex (n=terrex@84-122-63-17.onocable.ono.com) |
| 15:47.42 | aloril | mitsuhiko: yes |
| 15:47.46 | apokryphos | and also, what kind of linux applications will realistically be installable on it? |
| 15:48.03 | kaboofa | nethack! |
| 15:48.05 | xorAxAx | anything |
| 15:48.05 | aloril | sometimes I think this is too good to be true, that I will awake and realize it was just a dream |
| 15:48.08 | kaboofa | the most important linux application ever |
| 15:48.19 | xorAxAx | just running some might impose larger problems |
| 15:48.33 | apokryphos | i.e. kde application |
| 15:48.50 | benJIman | aloril: how do you get a powered usb port? |
| 15:49.05 | aloril | apokryphos: umm.. 128MB of ram and 266Mhz CPU and VGA screen are limits |
| 15:49.18 | aloril | benJIman: http://www.amazon.com/Cyber-Power-Battery-Powered-CP-H420MP/dp/B0002UQALQ |
| 15:49.20 | no0tic | mjr, wow! |
| 15:49.32 | apokryphos | aloril: how about a console? ;-) |
| 15:49.35 | benJIman | can run full KDE on my cyrix 233 w/128mb ram from 11 years ago, shouldn't be a problem |
| 15:49.37 | aloril | benJIman: or maybe hackers lunchbox version includes one? |
| 15:49.40 | mjr | aloril, swap over bluetooth ;] |
| 15:49.43 | mitsuhiko | btw. anyone knows about the capabilities regarding graphics? |
| 15:50.21 | apokryphos | any talks about openmoko at FOSDEM? |
| 15:50.35 | benJIman | aloril: and any usb wifi adapters with drivers in 2.6.17? |
| 15:50.52 | buz | ralink i believe |
| 15:51.00 | xorAxAx | benJIman: the current version? |
| 15:51.16 | *** join/#openmoko lkcl_ (n=lkcl@5ac68165.bb.sky.com) |
| 15:51.22 | buz | upgrading the kernel should be comparatively simple anyhow |
| 15:51.23 | benJIman | xorAxAx: apparently openmoko will ship with 2.6.17 kernel |
| 15:51.30 | xorAxAx | mitsuhiko: EGA, 16 colors of 256 colors |
| 15:51.37 | xorAxAx | benJIman: i mean your kde example |
| 15:51.48 | benJIman | xorAxAx: yeah newer ones, older are significantly slower |
| 15:51.53 | mitsuhiko | xorAxAx: very funny sir |
| 15:52.05 | xorAxAx | mitsuhiko: please elaborate |
| 15:52.06 | benJIman | kde 3.4.x or newer runs quite happily on old hardware |
| 15:52.28 | apokryphos | someone should do a lightining talk at fosdem, if nothing else, about it |
| 15:52.43 | mitsuhiko | xorAxAx: i usually do not develop on embedded devices. is the processor powerful enough to decode and play say mpeg movies? |
| 15:52.53 | mitsuhiko | is an user interface with transparent stuff possible |
| 15:52.53 | mitsuhiko | etc |
| 15:53.34 | mjr | mpeg1, surely, later mpegs, starts getting iffy and depends on a lot of parameters also... |
| 15:54.04 | mjr | (resolution of native video etc) |
| 15:54.39 | mjr | personally, I'll probably do some scripts to recode video to some low enough quality format to push to the neo |
| 15:55.04 | buz | ideally one would want h.264 to conserve space |
| 15:55.08 | buz | but thats surely not gonna work |
| 15:55.13 | mjr | you can forget about that; yeah |
| 15:55.13 | buz | mpeg4, maybe |
| 15:56.28 | mjr | (I'm not too picky about my video's quality when looking at it on a couple of inch display, so there's leeway in recoding ;) |
| 15:56.53 | buz | agreed |
| 15:56.56 | buz | mpeg1 would do |
| 15:57.01 | buz | but it takes a lot of space |
| 15:57.44 | mjr | yeah, it would be nice if some better compressed format could be used; maybe if one recodes with a low enough res... |
| 15:57.57 | buz | qvga mpeg4 could work |
| 15:57.59 | mjr | ah well, all depends, can't wait to experiment ;) |
| 15:58.29 | buz | though i'm a resolution nazi |
| 16:00.19 | buz | http://go.theregister.com/feed/http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/01/12/apple_lockdown_iphone/ |
| 16:01.11 | *** join/#openmoko leventhal (i=todd@azure.ath.cx) |
| 16:05.44 | aloril | hmm... what kind of video USB 1.1 speed would allow? get CF FPGA and CF card reader (or USB FPGA?) and decode (partially and/or decode?) video there ;-) |
| 16:05.56 | mjr | :þ |
| 16:06.28 | so_solid_moo | that's a capital idea. |
| 16:07.01 | aloril | you could decode and then encode to mpeg1 and send that back if speed otherwise not enough |
| 16:07.08 | buz | minor issue being the fact that CF FPGA runs about 3K usd |
| 16:07.11 | mjr | I'm not sure the uncompressed video could be sent back |
| 16:07.18 | mjr | aloril, ahh |
| 16:08.03 | aloril | buz: yeah, but is that 3K usd only option? |
| 16:08.21 | buz | have seen only one cf fpga |
| 16:08.44 | mjr | we need to organize a bulk order for this purpose |
| 16:08.51 | mjr | negotiate the price down a bit |
| 16:09.02 | buz | only if we can bundle it with a v8 |
| 16:09.26 | buz | (obviously we must not forget the kitchensink, either) |
| 16:10.18 | so_solid_moo | and the CF reader. |
| 16:10.55 | buz | i might wait for v2 |
| 16:11.06 | kaboofa | I have a feeling I'm going to wait for v2 as well |
| 16:11.18 | kaboofa | but ooh shiny shiny pretty pretty phone :) |
| 16:11.32 | aloril | what about http://www.easyfpga.com/ or some other USB FPGA? |
| 16:11.54 | aloril | about $200 |
| 16:12.15 | mjr | aloril, fancy, and look, it says it can work self-powered! |
| 16:12.47 | *** join/#openmoko bkuhn (n=bkuhn@fsf/member/bkuhn/bkuhn) |
| 16:12.58 | mjr | I guess they program the FPGA into a generator |
| 16:13.38 | *** join/#openmoko _paneb (n=_paneb@open-26.CS.McGill.CA) |
| 16:15.50 | *** join/#openmoko rejon (n=rejon@140.109.175.228) |
| 16:16.37 | *** part/#openmoko rejon (n=rejon@140.109.175.228) |
| 16:16.39 | aloril | hmm.. wifi card + battery powered hub + cheap digital camera (I think even roughly $100 ones are better than what iPhone includes): now misses only EDGE and multitouch compared to Neo1973 and still cheaper |
| 16:17.23 | aloril | still not given up hope on multitouch .. |
| 16:17.34 | _paneb | who exactly is going to sell the phones? |
| 16:17.41 | mitsuhiko | it's patented by apple isn't it? |
| 16:18.09 | xorAxAx | _paneb: FIC |
| 16:19.58 | _paneb | ah ok; but i would need to pay a contract or something right? |
| 16:19.58 | jthomas | why wouldn't h.264 be an option? FMPEG can encode to it... |
| 16:19.58 | jthomas | rather, FFMPEG |
| 16:19.58 | aloril | mitsuhiko: hmm.. I hope there is enough prior art |
| 16:20.46 | skome | There are numerous multi-touch devices that aren't Apple |
| 16:20.55 | skome | Smart whiteboards mostly |
| 16:21.00 | mjr | jthomas, doesn't it require a bit too much cpu to decode? |
| 16:21.11 | mitsuhiko | aloril: it's already patented according to steve jobs |
| 16:21.14 | jthomas | that i don't know, but if an iPod can do it |
| 16:22.40 | Tv | mitsuhiko: patents cover only what they explicitly list |
| 16:22.51 | Tv | mitsuhiko: it is highly unlikely that someone could patent "multitouch" |
| 16:23.03 | aloril | mitsuhiko: doesn't mean its valid patent and also software patents should not be valid in Europe |
| 16:25.20 | mitsuhiko | goddamn. i hate patents |
| 16:25.23 | mitsuhiko | killer of innovation |
| 16:26.11 | aloril | mitsuhiko: also Reality_distortion_field (see wikipedia) (makes people believe he patented it while he probably has applied for patent(s) for some aspects (and maybe mostly for software aspects)) |
| 16:26.18 | leventhal | FTIR has been around for a while.. I'm not sure what about multitouch apple could have patented |
| 16:26.53 | jthomas | we're going to need some KDE/GNOME graphical tools (maybe just written in Bash with Zenity). For example, a nice GUI app to transcode videos; others i am sure can be thought of as well... |
| 16:27.08 | aloril | mitsuhiko: still agree, I prefer invention not to be made if result is that it will be locked under patent |
| 16:27.31 | aloril | because in that case there is still possibility that somebody invents and doesn't patent it |
| 16:28.56 | Sencer | what we really need is: "Cute & Lovely Hands free Doll" |
| 16:29.01 | Sencer | not making this up: http://www.fic.com.tw/product/gt126.aspx |
| 16:31.26 | jthomas | wtf, i don't get it! lost in translation? maybe its supposed to say, "Simple Hands-free *call*" |
| 16:38.44 | *** join/#openmoko kazsaa (i=kazsaa@wss.hu) |
| 16:42.17 | skome | regarding Apple's patents, here's a sample search URL: http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-adv.htm&r=0&p=1&f=S&l=50&Query=an%2F%28Apple+and+Computer%29+%0D%0Aand+spec%2F%28touch+and+%28screen+or+display%29%29%0D%0A&d=PTXT |
| 16:43.13 | skome | yields 177 results which I don't have enough time to read. Tune the terms and maybe find what Jobs is on about |
| 16:59.49 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=bob@p85.212.176.193.tisdip.tiscali.de) |
| 17:04.41 | *** join/#openmoko Demitar_ (n=demitar@c-212-031-191-125.cust.broadway.se) |
| 17:05.03 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@9.80-202-160.nextgentel.com) |
| 17:06.20 | aloril | hmm.. I don't I have seen this question answered (seen question several times on mailing list though): can you 'download' compressed GSM audio data? |
| 17:06.44 | aloril | ie.. what comes from line and store that as voicemail instead of decompressing it to audio and then again compressing it using some different codec |
| 17:08.24 | buz | you gotta be kidding me |
| 17:08.29 | buz | apple renames the iphone to itouch |
| 17:08.41 | xorAxAx | haha |
| 17:08.51 | aloril | s/line/radiowaves/ |
| 17:08.52 | buz | doesnt really get any worse than that |
| 17:08.52 | xorAxAx | aloril: do you have the necessary codecs? :) |
| 17:09.01 | buz | an besides, itouch is already a logitech product |
| 17:09.04 | *** join/#openmoko greentux (n=lemke@195.227.105.180) |
| 17:09.13 | aloril | xorAxAx: decoding raw GSM stream? hmm... |
| 17:09.41 | mjr | plus, hey, "iTouch - leading global provider of mobile, voice and interactive services " |
| 17:09.43 | xorAxAx | aloril: yes, amr-nb, efr, etc. |
| 17:09.57 | buz | that's obviously not the same domain, sure |
| 17:10.03 | buz | can apple be that stupid? |
| 17:10.42 | buz | now AP claims the news is wrong |
| 17:10.43 | xorAxAx | buz: they just have to find a name where the compay doesnt want too high fees |
| 17:10.48 | aloril | xorAxAx: well.. is that decoding currently done in separate GSM system? (your answer seems to hint that) |
| 17:10.54 | buz | yeah where they can outright buy it |
| 17:11.11 | xorAxAx | aloril: i dont think that it is done in software |
| 17:11.34 | xorAxAx | aloril: i guess that the gsm chip will either deliver pcm data or an analogous audio pin |
| 17:15.45 | aloril | xorAxAx: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptive_Multi-Rate seems to have some links to source code and docs |
| 17:16.45 | xorAxAx | cool |
| 17:22.24 | aloril | even better would be if you could store AMR-NB compressed audio and then later use GSM chip to decode it |
| 17:22.40 | *** join/#openmoko thedaniel (n=daniel@38.98.1.19) |
| 17:23.14 | aloril | 138 total (was) in channel, new record? |
| 17:27.16 | *** join/#openmoko PirateHead (n=piratehe@ACA13A3B.ipt.aol.com) |
| 17:27.34 | PirateHead | And now, Chapter 2: In which the OpenMoko platform TOTALLY SMOKES the iPhone. |
| 17:27.48 | *** join/#openmoko TimRiker (n=timr@216.49.181.128) |
| 17:27.57 | koen | closed iphone and zaurus EOL |
| 17:28.05 | PirateHead | Because all the third-party and GNU-GPL'd apps will run on the Neo and its successors, but not on the iPhone. |
| 17:28.28 | xorAxAx | aloril: ask mickey|bbl or LaF0rge if that is possible |
| 17:28.37 | PirateHead | man, closed iphone. That's so good to hear. Because I had been waffeling on which one to get until I heard. |
| 17:28.59 | PirateHead | I would have bin Pissed with a capital P if I had bought one not realizing that it was closed. |
| 17:29.11 | koen | it's a US cell phone |
| 17:29.14 | koen | what do you expect? |
| 17:29.31 | PirateHead | but it's APPLE. I root for apple most of the time. |
| 17:30.04 | PirateHead | But when apple does something really boneheaded, I won't support them. And unfortunately, they have made a few boneheaded moves lately. |
| 17:30.12 | PirateHead | First, closing the OSX kernel. |
| 17:30.35 | PirateHead | Then, ignoring security specialists about bugs and vulnerabilities in OSX/bundled apps. |
| 17:30.55 | PirateHead | Now, releasing the next killer piece of hardware without any compatability with third-party apps, thus closed to innovation. |
| 17:31.07 | xkr47 | mickey|bbl, nice! thanks for the info |
| 17:31.43 | cbpage | i'm also not sure what the point of [apple]tv is... unless you have a lot of itunes videos |
| 17:31.52 | cbpage | they're going right up against the (also closed) 360 and it's video stuffs |
| 17:32.10 | quants | openmoko was announced long ago, funny if it beats Apple to market? |
| 17:32.12 | PirateHead | But they have to. It's an arms race between Microsoft and Apple for the living room. |
| 17:32.32 | cbpage | [apple]tv needs to do more then |
| 17:32.35 | PirateHead | Sony thinks they're in there too, but nobody is buying PS3s. |
| 17:32.42 | cbpage | it really should be a full mac |
| 17:32.48 | aloril | koen: oh? interesting... some announcement coming? (I guess you can't tell ;-) |
| 17:33.03 | koen | just a feeling |
| 17:33.17 | cbpage | zaurus went eol in the us a long time ago |
| 17:33.38 | koen | cbpage: it's now EOL in .jp as well |
| 17:33.42 | PirateHead | I'm going to start the Mobuntu project: ubuntu on mobile devices. Anybody with me? |
| 17:33.44 | cbpage | bummer |
| 17:33.45 | quants | oh no |
| 17:33.52 | koen | PirateHead: heh |
| 17:34.19 | quants | so the 3200 was the last in a cherished line |
| 17:34.20 | koen | PirateHead: I take mjubuntu failed miserable? (as I predicted) |
| 17:34.39 | PirateHead | koen: never heard of mjubuntu, googling now =D |
| 17:34.56 | koen | µbuntu in the ubuntu wiki |
| 17:35.02 | PirateHead | Your search - mjubuntu - did not match any documents. |
| 17:35.05 | PirateHead | wtf? |
| 17:35.25 | mitsuhiko | PirateHead: µbuntu |
| 17:35.28 | cbpage | hopefully openmoko phones will pick up the slack |
| 17:35.52 | koen | cbpage: hopefully OM users won't be so *&(@&*$@#& clueless |
| 17:35.52 | quants | openmoko is gonna be a whole new revolution |
| 17:36.04 | PirateHead | quants: I absolutely think so. |
| 17:36.21 | PirateHead | quants: I think that we, as the community, can make the OpenMoko platform totally outperform anything else. |
| 17:36.33 | cbpage | problem with making a zaurus-phone is that japan has even less (i.e. no) gsm than we do |
| 17:36.39 | cbpage | (the us does, that is!) |
| 17:36.51 | quants | does it use sim cards? |
| 17:37.08 | PirateHead | quants: does [what] use sim cards? |
| 17:37.11 | quants | can I just insert my sim card into it? |
| 17:37.39 | quants | OM |
| 17:37.40 | koen | it won't work without a simcard I suspect |
| 17:37.40 | cbpage | i *hope* there are openmoko "clone" phones - as long as they have the same openness |
| 17:37.40 | cbpage | ;) |
| 17:37.45 | PirateHead | koen: bring on the cloners! anybody else who wants to release open-source phones and start a hardware competition, go ahead. |
| 17:37.46 | quants | I don't want cingular to know |
| 17:37.54 | koen | cbpage: not hw cloners, software cloners |
| 17:38.10 | mjr | quants, yes, your GSM sim should work. Unless it's locked somehow to the spesific phone. |
| 17:38.12 | cbpage | ahhhh :P |
| 17:38.19 | cbpage | i think they'll all be chasing apple anyhow |
| 17:38.22 | koen | the people that copy the binaries and changes some images and go "OMG!!! 1337!!!!" |
| 17:38.30 | cbpage | ugh i hate those |
| 17:38.35 | koen | without realizing the source is out there |
| 17:38.49 | quants | I am gonna put a sip phone on mine, and have freeworlddialup, and my cell account as two lines |
| 17:38.59 | PirateHead | koen: as long as they keep it all open source =D |
| 17:39.07 | cbpage | we'll know openmoko's made it when motorola supports openmoko/ezx on at least one common phone |
| 17:39.14 | PirateHead | koen: if they include GPL'd stuff in their closed-source phones, we sue\ |
| 17:39.36 | koen | cbpage: I doubt moto is so cluefull |
| 17:39.52 | koen | cbpage: if they were, they would have stopped making crap phone GUIs long ago |
| 17:39.58 | quants | moto was a key point in the GPL3 argument |
| 17:40.16 | quants | koen: here here |
| 17:40.22 | cbpage | point |
| 17:40.26 | quants | moto are asses |
| 17:40.44 | koen | especially the 'asian firmware' I had on my a780 |
| 17:40.49 | koen | it could do anything |
| 17:40.56 | koen | except making calls easily |
| 17:40.58 | cbpage | i think the us has a skewed perspective overall... look at verizon's imposed ui stuff |
| 17:41.24 | koen | cbpage: "what!?!? you can change your background for free?!?!" |
| 17:41.30 | cbpage | lol |
| 17:41.33 | koen | s/background/wallpaper/ |
| 17:41.47 | quants | the key point of the OM revolution is the cell providers have zero say in design |
| 17:42.01 | cbpage | yeah :) |
| 17:42.03 | PirateHead | koen: the way I see a successful mobuntu project operating is as an extension of ubuntu, removing most of the apps and replacing with "superlite" apps, including mobile apps like soft keyboards, and integrating systems like OpenMoko (and possibly qTopia?) |
| 17:42.10 | koen | the key point is that you can't buy it in a store :( |
| 17:42.28 | quants | yet.... |
| 17:43.00 | quants | amazon has always sold unlocked nokia's |
| 17:43.20 | koen | PirateHead: that won't work |
| 17:43.21 | cbpage | nokia sells a few unlocked models to |
| 17:43.23 | cbpage | o |
| 17:43.30 | koen | PirateHead: that's still desktop thinking |
| 17:44.16 | quants | wonder if we can use the zaurus port for vlc? |
| 17:44.22 | koen | aaaaaaaaaaaargh |
| 17:44.25 | PirateHead | koen: I don't know the diffference between desktop thinking and mobile thinking then, I guess. |
| 17:44.43 | koen | stop abusing 'port' |
| 17:45.00 | quants | koen: sorry you're wrong |
| 17:45.15 | quants | vlc did make a zaurus port |
| 17:45.26 | PirateHead | koen: the point is that I want a slimmed-down version of firefox to work on my phone, easily available from an ubuntu-style repository, with alternatives side-by-side, etc |
| 17:45.34 | quants | it needs a UI from what I remember |
| 17:46.00 | quants | a port to a new arch |
| 17:46.02 | PirateHead | koen: this is just speaking as a consumer. I've never worked with mobile devices. I don't even own a smartphone, the Neo will be my first. |
| 17:46.09 | jjazz | PirateHead: OpenMoko has apt-get. |
| 17:46.15 | koen | jjazz: no, it hasn't |
| 17:46.19 | koen | jjazz: it has ipkg |
| 17:46.25 | quants | ipkg-get |
| 17:46.30 | jjazz | koen: Right, which is very similar to apt-get |
| 17:46.45 | koen | quants: vlc has a 'pda' gui |
| 17:46.50 | koen | quants: still not a port |
| 17:47.05 | PirateHead | jjazz, koen: does ipkg access debian-style repositories and packages? |
| 17:47.05 | koen | quants: the 'zaurus' port they has is an abomination |
| 17:47.16 | quants | koen: the core vlc was ported from its parent arch x86 |
| 17:47.48 | jjazz | PirateHead: what do you mean by debian-style? |
| 17:47.54 | quants | koen: was lineo porting to ppc not a port? |
| 17:48.08 | koen | quants: it's still not a 'zaurus port' |
| 17:48.15 | PirateHead | jjazz: .deb files, with the debian archetecture and packaging regimen, etc? |
| 17:48.34 | PirateHead | jjazz: or do we have a whole new .ipkg format and new rules to learn? |
| 17:48.42 | jjazz | PirateHead: ipkg isn't new |
| 17:48.48 | cbpage | ipkg is pretty close to deb and it's been around for years |
| 17:48.52 | quants | so openbsd's cats port, is not a port? |
| 17:49.10 | jjazz | PirateHead: In fact, there are shell script wrappers that let you do apt-get foo and such so you can pretend it's apt-get |
| 17:49.12 | koen | quants: cats nor zaurus are architectures |
| 17:49.39 | quants | koen: you're starting to make some sence |
| 17:49.41 | PirateHead | jjazz: forgive me, I didn't know. I'm only familier with arch linux's pacman, gentoo's emerge, debian's apt, and redhat's package manager. Oh, and slackware's .tgz |
| 17:49.47 | PirateHead | jjazz: who uses ipkg? |
| 17:50.06 | koen | PirateHead: how often do you think consumers open a terminal on their phones and type in "apt-get install foo"? |
| 17:50.06 | quants | zaurus does |
| 17:50.19 | jjazz | PirateHead: http://handhelds.org/moin/moin.cgi/Ipkg |
| 17:50.37 | koen | quants: stop comminicating badly |
| 17:50.42 | PirateHead | koen: that's not what they do. They press the GUI button that executes said command. My points is that, as a software developer, I am going to have to *write* said command. |
| 17:50.43 | quants | lol |
| 17:50.47 | koen | quants: 'zaurus' refers to a machine line |
| 17:50.58 | koen | quants: not an OS, distribution or package format |
| 17:51.04 | quants | zaurus does use ipkg |
| 17:51.13 | koen | no, it doesn't |
| 17:51.25 | quants | he asked, and you're acting like a self important idiot |
| 17:51.29 | koen | if I install fedora on my c700 'zaurus' uses rpm |
| 17:51.51 | quants | sorry the zaurus as sold by Sharp |
| 17:51.59 | PirateHead | quants: you're saying the base install uses ipkg, I get you |
| 17:52.01 | koen | you mean "most distributions that run on the sharp zaurus line use ipkg" |
| 17:52.04 | quants | the zaurus product does |
| 17:52.18 | quants | koen: no |
| 17:52.25 | quants | I said what I meant |
| 17:52.43 | jjazz | Bad quants! |
| 17:52.51 | quants | one more line of this stupidity, and I'm setting ingore |
| 17:52.56 | koen | your statement is about as true as "nokia use symbian" |
| 17:53.28 | quants | nokia is not a product |
| 17:54.16 | koen | my phone isn't a product? |
| 17:54.47 | quants | koen: I've had enough good bye |
| 17:55.01 | jjazz | PirateHead: that link I posted mentions that ipkg supports .deb |
| 17:55.24 | PirateHead | jjazz: i saw, and that's a good feature. :-) |
| 17:55.30 | koen | the *current* ipkg uses a .deb compatible format (ar wrapped tarballs) |
| 17:56.12 | koen | the 'zaurus' (in quants funny little world) uses an other ipkg format (tgz inside tgz) |
| 17:56.26 | koen | hence my insistance on using proper terms |
| 17:57.17 | *** join/#openmoko jtokash (n=jtokash@corporate.homestead-inc.com) |
| 17:57.42 | cbpage | i wonder how many non-jp users actually use sharproms, though |
| 17:57.43 | cbpage | ;) |
| 17:57.54 | koen | PirateHead: anyway, OpenEmbedded takes care of building *and* packaging, so you (or other developers) don't have to worry about packaging |
| 17:58.18 | koen | PirateHead: and openmoko has a gui packagemanager as well, so you don't even have to know what it uses :) |
| 17:58.21 | quants | I only just switched to OZ |
| 17:58.40 | quants | once I found out it was a fresh port |
| 17:58.51 | PirateHead | koen: well, if it's really all that easy, it'll be nice. |
| 17:59.03 | koen | PirateHead: it is :) |
| 17:59.16 | PirateHead | koen: I still haven't figured out how to get openembedded working, but I'm in the process. |
| 17:59.19 | Sencer | but - will it blend? |
| 17:59.31 | PirateHead | koen: hopefully I'll be climbing the learning curve by the time the Neo is released |
| 17:59.34 | koen | Sencer: blend? |
| 17:59.43 | so_solid_moo | _everything_ blends ;) |
| 17:59.48 | koen | PirateHead: it's a pretty steep learning curve |
| 17:59.49 | jjazz | Sencer: it will frappe, but not blend |
| 17:59.55 | quants | PirateHead: god I hope not |
| 17:59.56 | PirateHead | Sencer: I've heard "will it blend?" a few times on digg and slashdot. Where does that little phrase/in-joke come from? |
| 18:00.02 | koen | PirateHead: hence my advice to get started no, instead of after the release |
| 18:00.22 | Sencer | re: will it blend? - search for it on youtube. It's better you see it. |
| 18:00.39 | quants | the sooner OM is out the better, with all those nasty iphones looming in the distance |
| 18:00.56 | Sencer | for example: http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Wa9SmK_A3E |
| 18:00.59 | jjazz | quants: The iphone is great for the moko. |
| 18:01.13 | quants | not the legal side |
| 18:01.25 | jjazz | quants: How so? |
| 18:01.35 | quants | that is what I'm affraid of |
| 18:01.47 | quants | the fight for dominance |
| 18:02.14 | PirateHead | quants: there will be no fight for dominance. The iphone is closed, no third party apps, much less open-source ones. |
| 18:02.17 | jjazz | quants: Apple is going to spend a lot of money to make people want the moko. It's a really good development. |
| 18:02.37 | PirateHead | quants: everybody who wants to control their wireless device will choose openmoko; those who wish to be controlled by their wireless devices will choose the iphone. |
| 18:02.39 | jjazz | quants: And the moko will do more for less, just because it will have a dev community. |
| 18:02.41 | quants | Apple might then do everything they can to kill it |
| 18:02.42 | buz | at least now people cant complain about the touchscreen anymore |
| 18:02.44 | Sencer | jjazz: I agree. In fact the iPhone announcement is how I learned about the Neo |
| 18:02.55 | jjazz | Sencer: brilliant! |
| 18:03.03 | leventhal | same here |
| 18:03.14 | PirateHead | sencer: that is awesome leventhal too! |
| 18:03.29 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@24.crcr10.xdsl.nauticom.net) |
| 18:03.29 | PirateHead | welcome to the chatroom guys =D |
| 18:03.41 | leventhal | i wanted the iphone right until one of the sales guys said he wanted devs to be able to write little applets and widgets |
| 18:03.47 | leventhal | and then jobs made that whole west coast comment.. |
| 18:04.11 | leventhal | i wanted to make the iphone control a roomba damnit! |
| 18:04.13 | nnpiggy | What west coast comment? |
| 18:04.18 | quants | that is Cingular talking btw |
| 18:04.34 | cbpage | no, cingular sells winmo and palmos phones that can take apps |
| 18:04.38 | jjazz | nnpiggy: Jobs is down with west coast rap. He knows who shot Tupac, but won't tell anybody. |
| 18:04.44 | quants | that is why moto hashed their linux |
| 18:04.51 | PirateHead | nnpiggy: jobs said that Apple isn't going to let some poorly written application take down Cingulair's whole "west-coast" network. |
| 18:04.57 | leventhal | .You don.t want your phone to be an open platform,. meaning that anyone can write applications for it and potentially gum up the provider's network, says Jobs. .You need it to work when you need it to work. Cingular doesn.t want to see their West Coast network go down because some application messed up." |
| 18:04.59 | cbpage | *blink* |
| 18:05.06 | koen | sounds like a crappy network |
| 18:05.13 | kaboofa | I still don't understand why that would be a problem |
| 18:05.18 | leventhal | it's not |
| 18:05.20 | cbpage | i was on the network when it was under at&t - it sucked then |
| 18:05.21 | Sencer | isn't that what At&T used to say about landline phones? |
| 18:05.23 | kaboofa | Cingular already has blackberries and everything running around on their network |
| 18:05.25 | koen | although I have heard an mvista employee state the same for the neo |
| 18:05.32 | nnpiggy | It sounds like FUD from Jobs... |
| 18:05.51 | leventhal | yes it does |
| 18:05.56 | PirateHead | FUD ALERT |
| 18:05.57 | quants | Cingular is affraid of UNIX-like systems |
| 18:05.57 | buz | mhh i wouldnt want to be cingular customer if one app can take their whole cellphone network down, really |
| 18:05.58 | cbpage | if you have that many problems someone's bound to make phreaking apps using gsm pcmcia or cf cards |
| 18:06.03 | PirateHead | source: the Almighty Steve Jobs |
| 18:06.03 | koen | I thing you can replace 'network' with 'profit' |
| 18:06.12 | jjazz | Apple needs to control the user experience. It's what they do, and their customers like it. |
| 18:06.23 | leventhal | that and the cold shoulder to canadians put me off iphone |
| 18:06.30 | PirateHead | jjazz: you hit it on the dot |
| 18:06.40 | cbpage | historically most phone hackers just want free stuff ;) |
| 18:06.49 | buz | apple is microsoft with a sense of style |
| 18:06.51 | quants | freedom! |
| 18:07.05 | buz | yeah, because we all know free and freedom are very near ;) |
| 18:07.13 | nnpiggy | quants, do you have a reference for your comment about Moto Linux? |
| 18:07.20 | quants | it's better than theft |
| 18:07.41 | Sencer | well, you'll get (basically) free sms with the Neo |
| 18:07.43 | quants | nnpiggy: msg me, and I'll find it later |
| 18:08.43 | quants | moto made a hash of their kernel, and prevented modified kernels from running |
| 18:08.59 | buz | sounds like something moto would do, yes |
| 18:09.13 | quants | fsf was pissed |
| 18:09.19 | cbpage | ouch - i thought the openezx people were getting images on the phones |
| 18:09.24 | koen | I can run modified kernels on my moto |
| 18:09.42 | buz | there's gotta be a way to circumvent it |
| 18:09.45 | buz | there always is |
| 18:09.49 | quants | it was their first phone with linux |
| 18:09.55 | cbpage | one or two dark_alex types and your closed device is pwnt |
| 18:10.02 | quants | buz: if you're the NSA |
| 18:10.03 | PirateHead | buz: not with Trusted Computing!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
| 18:10.17 | buz | assuming the TCM really works, yes |
| 18:10.27 | buz | and is bug free |
| 18:10.33 | cbpage | look at the cat+mouse game that is the psp scene |
| 18:10.36 | koen | the newest moto phones has SElinux |
| 18:10.41 | koen | but don't enable it |
| 18:10.45 | buz | ROTFL |
| 18:10.52 | myren | /win/win 21 |
| 18:10.53 | buz | well their phones are slow as it is |
| 18:10.54 | myren | pardon |
| 18:11.37 | *** join/#openmoko _parmenides_ (n=hades@mail.mondueri.com) |
| 18:12.40 | PirateHead | this might not be an question anyone here can answer, but here goes: if myself and two other guys write a program and GPL it, and one of us dies, can the other two change the license without the third one's consent? |
| 18:13.01 | quants | did the iphone rumors happen before or after the OM announcment |
| 18:13.06 | cbpage | i don't think so - copyright extendes far after death |
| 18:13.11 | buz | probably only if the other guys heirs agree |
| 18:13.13 | cbpage | before, but nobody had details |
| 18:13.36 | jjazz | PirateHead: Copyrights will pass with the estate. |
| 18:14.06 | PirateHead | Alrighty, thanks for answers. I just wondered how that worked. |
| 18:14.36 | buz | PirateHead: you can always solve it with some bilateral contract |
| 18:14.54 | *** join/#openmoko apokryphos- (n=francis@87-194-86-227.bethere.co.uk) |
| 18:15.02 | buz | but this is really for lawyers |
| 18:15.23 | *** join/#openmoko koen (n=koen@dominion.kabel.utwente.nl) |
| 18:16.00 | sannes | PirateHead: you are not going to kill anybody are you? :P |
| 18:16.50 | aloril | 139 in channel, new record again? we must be getting quite publicity |
| 18:17.19 | PirateHead | sannes: nah |
| 18:17.30 | PirateHead | sannes: that would be so *not* free software! |
| 18:17.51 | sannes | I wonder if that means that there will be 139 preorders subsecond after release.. heh |
| 18:18.06 | sannes | PirateHead: true :) |
| 18:18.29 | koen | minus early access people |
| 18:19.40 | jjazz | PirateHead: If you have an actual GPL issue, you can ask the FSF or the SFLC for some advice. |
| 18:20.41 | *** part/#openmoko vargr (n=vargr@dsl092-109-027.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 18:22.56 | cbpage | someone just asked on the mailing list about kernel hacking and bricking worries - anyone know how the bootloader's set up? |
| 18:23.41 | koen | as long as you don't mess with the bootloader you can't brick it |
| 18:24.11 | cbpage | cool - sd and/or usb recovery then? |
| 18:25.05 | cbpage | glad it's got brick protection :) |
| 18:25.39 | koen | afaik usb recovery |
| 18:26.59 | cbpage | cool |
| 18:28.18 | Sencer | jjazz: yeah, OutlookExpress can be confusing. (j/k) |
| 18:28.44 | jjazz | Sencer: I'm lucky enough never to have seen Outlook. I understand it's a nightmare. |
| 18:28.53 | cbpage | the ethernet gadget driver looks nifty. |
| 18:29.47 | cbpage | i can't wait to get nmea and bridged gprs data going over both usb and bluetooth :) |
| 18:31.09 | cbpage | how many phones with gps export it as a bluetooth gps? |
| 18:31.17 | cbpage | *standalone-type |
| 18:31.47 | *** part/#openmoko Laibsch (n=Laibsch@87.193.68.139) |
| 18:34.50 | Sencer | will it have netfilter? I hear Harald Welte is working on it as well^^ |
| 18:35.08 | cbpage | probably - i want to use it to NAT the gprs connection :) |
| 18:35.09 | koen | Sencer: if not, you can add it yourself |
| 18:35.32 | koen | harald also mentioned 'call firewalling' |
| 18:35.49 | cbpage | i want to get it so i can press a button and have the phone log into gprs, and then you can connect using bt and/or usb at the same time without dialing on the pc side |
| 18:35.53 | koen | Sencer: btw 'LaF0rge' = harald |
| 18:35.55 | Sencer | koen: call as in phone call? |
| 18:35.59 | Sencer | oooh |
| 18:36.06 | koen | Sencer: call as in phonecall |
| 18:36.12 | cbpage | can a bluetooth stack handle multiple connections at once? i think so but i forget |
| 18:36.51 | cbpage | . o O (GPRS linked up to 4 computers at once... the pain, the very cool pain) |
| 18:37.31 | Sencer | cbpage: you might be fat, if you just manually read and type the bits... |
| 18:37.39 | Sencer | s/fat/faster |
| 18:37.48 | cbpage | ;) |
| 18:38.05 | cbpage | sometimes gprs/cell-data is the only net access around though, especially if you're moving |
| 18:38.31 | koen | Sencer: transparant proxy using squid :) |
| 18:39.42 | Sencer | koen: mmmh, squid, now I am getting hungry |
| 18:44.51 | buz | squid caching to flash |
| 18:44.55 | buz | that's gonna last long |
| 18:45.25 | benJIman | PirateHead: you'd have to get permission from the copyright holder, ie whoever inherited the copyright from the person who died. |
| 18:46.04 | PirateHead | benJIman: thanks, you're a little (read: half an hour?) late, though. =D |
| 18:46.38 | Sencer | are there any details about security-concerns and how they will be dealt with? Like restricting access to certain parts of the phone (phonebook, making calls, sending sms etc.). Or will it be assumed, that once you install an application you better know what it's going to do? |
| 18:46.40 | *** join/#openmoko andymk (n=andy@adsl-static-1-193.uklinux.net) |
| 18:46.40 | benJIman | PirateHead: I didn't see any answer |
| 18:47.16 | PirateHead | What will the Neo1973's highest-bandwidth connection be? |
| 18:47.29 | PirateHead | Does it have anything faster than USB 1.1? |
| 18:47.58 | quants | is it UMTS or edge? |
| 18:48.02 | Sencer | PirateHead: depends on how fast you can insert an sd-card ^^ |
| 18:48.07 | xorAxAx | quants: neither nor |
| 18:48.07 | cbpage | fraid not, and it's just gprs iirc |
| 18:48.19 | benJIman | EDGE isn't used here anyway |
| 18:48.40 | PirateHead | haha sencer. I'm wondering for networking reasons, obviously. |
| 18:48.48 | PirateHead | I wonder what kind of bandwidth I'm going to be able to fit into ti. |
| 18:48.51 | quants | ouch gprs is slow |
| 18:48.52 | benJIman | PirateHead: what speed is bluetooth? |
| 18:49.02 | benJIman | and there are no edge networks |
| 18:49.14 | quants | there are here |
| 18:49.18 | benJIman | where's here? |
| 18:49.22 | quants | .us |
| 18:49.22 | Sencer | usb1.1 > bluetooth |
| 18:49.41 | PirateHead | benJIman: I don't know, I have never used bluetooth devices. Being wireless and low-signal-strength, I'm guessing it's slower than USB 1.1 |
| 18:49.54 | benJIman | PirateHead: in any case usb 1.1 is likely to be fast enough |
| 18:49.57 | buz | 2.1 with highspeed 2.0 equipment |
| 18:49.59 | quants | yeah it is |
| 18:50.04 | benJIman | considering you havn't even got anything high capacity on the phone |
| 18:50.09 | benJIman | what would you need the bandwidth for |
| 18:50.25 | quants | web browsing |
| 18:50.31 | quants | voip |
| 18:50.34 | PirateHead | need the bandwidth for streaming video and web browsing |
| 18:50.38 | benJIman | usb 1.1 is fast enough |
| 18:50.41 | benJIman | for that |
| 18:50.42 | xorAxAx | in doubt, porn |
| 18:51.08 | PirateHead | xorAxAx: lolz, porn in mini-resolution |
| 18:51.14 | PirateHead | postage-stamp pr0nz |
| 18:51.17 | benJIman | your limiting factor is going to be the wireless network speed, unless you have a really good connection anyway |
| 18:51.38 | benJIman | quants: seems to be all 3g not edge here |
| 18:51.40 | quants | we need 3.5G |
| 18:51.58 | PirateHead | benJIman: my network gets 200-300 kb/s in |
| 18:52.01 | xorAxAx | PirateHead: on GPRS? |
| 18:52.01 | xorAxAx | without edge? |
| 18:52.02 | quants | I think edge was 2.5G |
| 18:52.04 | PirateHead | benJIman, no ADSL! |
| 18:52.12 | PirateHead | ...I mean xoraxax |
| 18:52.20 | xorAxAx | PirateHead: and that matters why? |
| 18:52.38 | PirateHead | xoraxax: somebody said that the limit of data transfer would be limited by your internet connection |
| 18:52.48 | PirateHead | and I'm saying my DSL gives me more kb/s than USB can pipe |
| 18:52.50 | cbpage | what's the latency of 3g anyhow? |
| 18:52.51 | xorAxAx | PirateHead: by your mobile internet connection |
| 18:53.09 | benJIman | PirateHead: and if you're at home to use your adsl you could just use your PC ^_^ |
| 18:54.04 | PirateHead | you're both right, my home network speed doesn't really matter |
| 18:54.18 | quants | gprs >> edge >> 3G >> umts in order of bandwidth |
| 18:54.19 | Sencer | Piratehead: I did webbrowsing on my Sonyericsson p900 via bluetooth on my home-network. Took me a day until it worked, and then I only used it once. It's a) too slow to be fun (might have been the machine as well) and b) you are limited by the range. |
| 18:54.24 | Sencer | it's no fun, really |
| 18:54.44 | buz | Sencer: i never got that quite working |
| 18:54.51 | buz | but i figured it was kinda pointless |
| 18:54.53 | PirateHead | sencer: I will never "browse the web" using a mobile device. |
| 18:55.06 | PirateHead | sencer: at most, I'd check email or do IRC or IM |
| 18:55.14 | Sencer | buz: yeah, it was. It was nice trying out google's midp- maps app. But that was it. |
| 18:55.16 | quants | I'd google from a handheld |
| 18:55.26 | buz | i'd read wiki |
| 18:55.33 | PirateHead | quants: you can google from a handheld using SMS |
| 18:55.34 | buz | whenever we got into discussions |
| 18:55.38 | leventhal | I ssh and google from my handheld |
| 18:55.43 | quants | PirateHead: wow |
| 18:55.45 | leventhal | Keeps me busy on ths bus |
| 18:55.55 | Sencer | you could just use your telephone joker and ring a friend |
| 18:56.08 | buz | Sencer: i sometimes did that |
| 18:56.13 | buz | have em google stuff for me ;) |
| 18:56.31 | buz | i'm weird, i know |
| 18:56.40 | Sencer | yeah, apparently I have the image of "always-online" person, so I get calls like that from time to time... |
| 18:57.44 | buz | online happened to me once or so |
| 18:58.04 | buz | something along the line "WTF can we find a mechanic for the broken down car???" |
| 18:58.16 | buz | oh and my gf once called asking for directions, too ;) |
| 19:07.34 | *** join/#openmoko timtimred (n=On3@62-31-181-7.cable.ubr02.chel.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 19:25.21 | *** join/#openmoko SubWolf (n=rob@69.92.38.82) |
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| 19:48.04 | quants | nnpiggy: I hope you got my links? freenode seems to be setting me up the bomb? |
| 19:54.01 | *** join/#openmoko Rac0r_ (n=Rac0r@p5081DA8F.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 19:54.29 | Sencer | quants: no links got posted in this channel afai can see |
| 19:55.35 | *** join/#openmoko leoncamel (n=leoncame@219.142.144.31) |
| 19:57.24 | quants | Sencer: no we were in //msg |
| 19:58.26 | quants | not it, but same line of thought: http://mobile.newsforge.com/mobility/06/02/01/1655248.shtml?tid=104&tid=25&tid=98 |
| 19:58.40 | quants | "I was interested in writing a lightweight kernel to play with on the Motorola e815 and similar phones. Compiling binaries for the phone's cpu is no big deal, but the phone requires its kernel to be digitally signed." |
| 19:58.54 | quants | http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/02/07/2057240 |
| 19:59.04 | quants | by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 07, @05:12PM (#14663962) |
| 19:59.24 | quants | google: motorola+linux+phone+kernel+gpl |
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| 20:26.55 | greentux | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:29.33 | thedaniel | HAY GUYZ WHEN CAN I BUY TEH NIO |
| 20:29.43 | thedaniel | hee hee |
| 20:29.49 | hrw | omg |
| 20:30.31 | thedaniel | I RELY WANT TO HAVE A LINUX FONE WILL IT HAVE WIFI |
| 20:30.49 | greentux | s/#openmoko/#the doomed phone channel |
| 20:30.54 | hrw | thedaniel: AND FPGA |
| 20:31.16 | thedaniel | IT HAS TO HAVE 3G OR IT WILL BE A FAILYURE |
| 20:31.20 | Sencer | WILL SUPPORT ALL UPPERCASE? |
| 20:32.16 | quants | I'm hoping we'll evolve away from mice interfaces |
| 20:33.03 | *** join/#openmoko nothingman (n=chatzill@135.sub-75-199-10.myvzw.com) |
| 20:33.08 | nothingman | hi, all |
| 20:34.58 | nothingman | I was wondering if it had yet occurred to anyone that the orange OM logo looks a bit like and angry Indian? |
| 20:34.58 | *** join/#openmoko Rac0r_ (n=Rac0r@p5081D078.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 20:35.40 | nothingman | also, since the phone claims support for 2.5G and Bluetooth, but no WiFi, I was wondering if the hardware would enable one to use it as a Bluetooth modem (as the Verizon reps tell me it won't happen from here til whenever they decide to care, though there are VCast phones with Bluetooth) |
| 20:36.16 | cjb | should work. |
| 20:36.39 | quants | I love my ericson bt modem |
| 20:36.47 | quants | it's so dumb |
| 20:36.58 | hrw | nothingman: should be no problem |
| 20:36.59 | nothingman | well, "should work" and "we plan to support it" are two essentially different things |
| 20:37.20 | nothingman | a VCast with Bluetooth and a little hacking "should work" as a Bluetooth modem |
| 20:38.13 | skome | up to us to make that happen w/this device. I have heard similar ideas, so maybe it will be developed |
| 20:39.03 | nothingman | also, I was wondering, since there appears to be a default color scheme, if anyone's thought of making just that aspect of the UI changeable -- say, if the icons were SVG, having those parts that conformed to the scheme coded to a default color but referencing a user-selected color that could be set from an applet |
| 20:39.41 | *** join/#openmoko _parmenides_ (n=hades@mail.mondueri.com) |
| 20:40.01 | Psi | "since the phone claims support for 2.5G" could someone explain what that means? |
| 20:40.10 | Psi | what exactly is 2.5ghz |
| 20:40.12 | quants | my whole interest is around sip support |
| 20:40.14 | koen | Psi: grps I guess |
| 20:40.18 | Psi | hm.. |
| 20:40.25 | quants | 2.5 generation |
| 20:40.35 | Psi | ah |
| 20:40.47 | quants | 3G 3rd generation |
| 20:41.16 | thedaniel | i think that calling the gprs in the neo 2.5g is misleading |
| 20:41.18 | hrw | 1G - before gprs, 2G/2.5G - gprs, 3G - umts |
| 20:41.19 | skome | 2G + GPRS := 2.5G --http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gprs |
| 20:41.28 | thedaniel | i think that is often understood to mean EDGE inint? |
| 20:41.37 | quants | 2G was gprs, 2.5G is edge, 3G ?, 3.5G hspada? |
| 20:41.53 | hrw | ah |
| 20:42.05 | myren | UMTS |
| 20:42.05 | skome | Isn't EDGE CDMA tech? |
| 20:42.11 | thedaniel | naw |
| 20:42.13 | koen | skome: no |
| 20:42.16 | skome | k |
| 20:42.27 | koen | skome: UMTS is related to (w)cdma |
| 20:42.31 | Psi | so what does 2.5g mean to the average person who wants to use internet from their phone? |
| 20:42.34 | Psi | just faster speed? |
| 20:42.36 | thedaniel | it's 100Kbps or so dprs |
| 20:42.38 | thedaniel | *gprs |
| 20:42.48 | Sketch | Psi: it's faster than GPRS, but slower than 3G |
| 20:42.48 | thedaniel | (edge that is) |
| 20:42.53 | Psi | Sketch, ah |
| 20:42.55 | Psi | thanks |
| 20:42.56 | quants | edge is less slow gprs |
| 20:43.46 | Sencer | "less slow" - I like that description |
| 20:43.58 | skome | yah, I was mixed up w/UMTS |
| 20:44.03 | *** join/#openmoko _rob (n=rob@ACAD05A9.ipt.aol.com) |
| 20:44.26 | quants | I'm not sure what umts really is? |
| 20:44.34 | Sencer | on wikipedia somebody wrote: "Whether EDGE is 2G or 3G depends on implementation. While Class 3 and below EDGE devices clearly are not 3G, class 4 and above devices perform at a higher bandwidth than other technologies conventionally considered as 3G (such as 1xRTT). Because of the variability, EDGE is generally classified as 2.75G network technology. |
| 20:44.52 | quants | I know haspada what ever is the only real service |
| 20:45.32 | spikebik1 | crap |
| 20:45.37 | quants | 3.5G is better tech edge sux |
| 20:45.38 | spikebik1 | my cell phone died |
| 20:45.48 | myren | none of these solutions provide low latency do they? |
| 20:45.50 | spikebik1 | and the openmoko isn't here |
| 20:45.53 | myren | they're all 200ms and up? |
| 20:46.11 | myren | spikebik1: might as well just kill yourself now mate |
| 20:47.59 | Sketch | myren: i think that's more of a function of distance than anything |
| 20:47.59 | spikebik1 | sigh |
| 20:48.17 | *** join/#openmoko nothingman_ (n=chatzill@2.sub-75-199-96.myvzw.com) |
| 20:48.20 | spikebik1 | guess I could get a rokr e2 or A1200 |
| 20:48.28 | spikebik1 | seems like that's as close as you get today |
| 20:48.51 | cbpage | you could get something cheap through the carrier |
| 20:48.56 | nothingman | sorry, got disconnected |
| 20:49.00 | nothingman | skome: any ideas on how that would be accomplished? Do you think that the LG and Motorola designers are deliberately avoiding bridging the two interfaces? Would software be able to handle it? Come to think of it, I know nothing of Bluetooth standards: can that handle passing along 3Gbit/s? |
| 20:49.07 | nothingman | also, I was wondering, since there appears to be a default color scheme, if anyone's thought of making just that aspect of the UI changeable -- say, if the icons were SVG, having those parts that conformed to the scheme coded to a default color but referencing a user-selected color that could be set from an applet |
| 20:50.15 | nothingman | meaning in every icon's code, there would be an if statement referencing the same variable which represented the color scheme's default color |
| 20:50.18 | hrw | nothingman: send this idea to mailing lists |
| 20:50.34 | Sencer | s/GBit/MBit |
| 20:50.46 | nothingman | Sencer, thank you |
| 20:51.06 | nothingman | not sure where I was at when choosing that letter :-P |
| 20:51.07 | quants | 12:09 [freenode] -!- Private messages from unregistered users are currently blocked due to spam |
| 20:51.09 | koen | nothingman: I think qt 4.2 supports something like this |
| 20:51.10 | quants | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:51.13 | quants | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:51.16 | quants | that's a pain |
| 20:51.36 | koen | nothingman: so I guess mickey|bbl knows where to steal code from :) |
| 20:51.42 | quants | nnpiggy: that is the error |
| 20:53.01 | nnpiggy | How odd. I THOUGHT I was registered... I have a buddy pounce for nickserv which triggers every day... |
| 20:53.16 | quants | I'm not |
| 20:53.20 | nnpiggy | Oh! |
| 20:53.52 | spikebik1 | SVG is unlikely to hit cell phones |
| 20:53.57 | spikebik1 | at least anytime soon |
| 20:54.41 | quants | most tech is still being held back by battery tech |
| 20:55.29 | timtimred | most tech is currently being held back by the people that make it |
| 20:55.42 | timtimred | :D |
| 20:55.49 | myren | iawtc timtimred |
| 20:55.57 | quants | This version is backwards compatible with 1.x. The main enhancement is the introduction of Enhanced Data Rate (EDR) of 3.0 Mbps. |
| 20:56.02 | koen | don't attribute to malice what you can attribute to stupidity |
| 20:56.56 | *** join/#openmoko ZeroDogg (n=zerodogg@225.80-202-194.nextgentel.com) |
| 20:57.04 | quants | the new BT can do 3Mbps |
| 20:57.16 | hrw | quants: and Neo has it |
| 20:57.33 | hrw | EDR gives ~2.1Mbps real transfer |
| 20:58.02 | quants | yeah overhead |
| 20:58.08 | hrw | I hope that I will be able to test it before fosdem or atleast on fosdem |
| 20:58.19 | koen | yep |
| 20:59.54 | *** join/#openmoko evanpro (n=evanpro@pdpc/supporter/silver/evanpro) |
| 20:59.55 | quants | they should look at the modem for my w600i for the OM |
| 21:11.25 | quants | "While many outfits like to pretend that they emphasis user freedom, Jobs tells the Times categorically that he will define everything that is on the phone and not those pesky customers. He told users that Apple did not want the phone to be like a PC and that the last thing it wants is to have loaded software on the phone and find the phone does not work." |
| 21:12.03 | quants | I change my position |
| 21:15.05 | benJIman | sean going to be at fosdem? |
| 21:15.52 | greentux | sean comes to fosdme, yes. |
| 21:16.29 | *** join/#openmoko shingoki (n=goki@pdpc/supporter/active/shingoki) |
| 21:17.01 | shingoki | So... no 3rd party on iphone, I was looking around and found this :) |
| 21:17.06 | shingoki | I'd never heard of it before :) |
| 21:17.27 | jjazz | shingoki: You're not the only one who found the Neo via iPhone hype. |
| 21:17.40 | quants | wow guys, maybe you were right? |
| 21:17.49 | Sencer | :) |
| 21:18.03 | jjazz | quants: Yes, we're right. The iPhone is the best thing that could happen to the Neo. |
| 21:18.15 | quants | I still hopw the lawyers don't try and kill it |
| 21:18.51 | jjazz | quants: You keep saying that but you have yet to explain how they could. |
| 21:18.57 | quants | I predict a bloody warfare over this market |
| 21:19.20 | quants | jjazz: just wait and see, maybe I'm wrong? |
| 21:20.17 | jjazz | quants: Well, you haven't given any reasons why you might be right. :P |
| 21:20.23 | cjb | quants: So what you're saying is, you don't actually want to back up your comments but want to be seen to be being negative just in case. That's so totally not helpful. |
| 21:21.01 | quants | I have seen stuff done in court that would make your skin crawl |
| 21:21.22 | quants | I'm not really hot on the idea of inspiring anyone |
| 21:21.28 | cjb | *shrug* So what? Should we all stop doing cool stuff because someone might get sued somewhere? |
| 21:21.56 | quants | no, I'm just voiceing the be prepared motto |
| 21:22.12 | jjazz | quants: You actually have a secret novel legal theory that could take down the Moko? Color me skeptical. |
| 21:22.35 | quants | not what I was saying at all |
| 21:22.38 | cjb | It seems like you're just proposing everyone sit around worrying all day instead of doing anything. That's up to you, but maybe you have something more constructive to do than being "that guy" who wants to predict eventual failure for some reason or another. |
| 21:22.46 | *** part/#openmoko nothingman (n=chatzill@2.sub-75-199-96.myvzw.com) |
| 21:23.15 | jjazz | quants: What did you mean by not inspiriing people? I guess I misunderstood. |
| 21:23.15 | cjb | Okay. How can we be prepared? What constructive action should FIC take? |
| 21:23.20 | quants | I'm not saying it will be a failure |
| 21:23.34 | Sencer | lawyers won't get involved, simply because openmoko is waay to small. Somthing like that would give it a lot of publicity and worsen the problem. Nobody that has a stake in the un-success of the openmoko would risk that. |
| 21:23.59 | timtimred | plus what patents is it violating |
| 21:24.13 | timtimred | any? |
| 21:24.44 | quants | timtimred: good question, I don't know |
| 21:24.44 | timtimred | dual stroke? |
| 21:24.44 | cjb | *shrug* it probably does violate patents. most pieces of technology do. |
| 21:24.44 | quants | but let's stop this line of inqurey |
| 21:24.49 | timtimred | cjb sure just not iphone specific ones |
| 21:25.27 | quants | remember the whole market is not iPhone |
| 21:25.28 | cjb | oh, indeed. the openmoko does nothing that hasn't been done in smartphones for a decade. the iPhone can't possibly have a relevant patent. |
| 21:26.04 | cjb | totally. |
| 21:26.50 | jjazz | quants: Do you have any particular legal qualifications that give you insight in this area? You said you've seen things in court. Are you a lawyer? |
| 21:27.12 | quants | I'm not a lawyer |
| 21:27.22 | jjazz | Are you a frequent defendant? ;) |
| 21:27.35 | quants | I work lots of them though |
| 21:27.54 | jjazz | In the tech field? |
| 21:28.14 | Sencer | quants: be honest - do you work for SCO? |
| 21:28.16 | Sencer | ^^ |
| 21:28.45 | skome | d/detach |
| 21:28.45 | quants | lol, hell no |
| 21:28.47 | skome | exit |
| 21:28.56 | skome | wups |
| 21:30.54 | quants | I can't believe how offended people get when you intoroduce the slightest bit of reality to their fragile little world view. |
| 21:31.24 | quants | people this is a big thing happening |
| 21:31.59 | quants | most squabbles are about big things |
| 21:32.33 | Sencer | it might turn into big thing. Currently it is not. |
| 21:33.43 | cjb | quants: I'm offended because all you're doing is providing stop-energy, which is categorically unhelpful for anything. All it does is make the people actually working on the project feel jaded by all the negativity. |
| 21:34.09 | cjb | It is offensive for you to be pretending to be trying to help, when your input is actually a net loss. |
| 21:34.18 | quants | I seriously doubt that is the case |
| 21:34.21 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@9.80-202-160.nextgentel.com) |
| 21:34.27 | cjb | You think you've said something useful, then? |
| 21:34.35 | shingoki | I can't see that the iphone has much except the multitouch |
| 21:34.51 | Sencer | quants: On a strategic level the necessary people are certainl aware of risks. There is just no point in constantly lamenting about it, when nothing of the sort is anywhere in sight |
| 21:34.54 | shingoki | and the "non-reprogrammable computer" thing was invented by babbage I think |
| 21:34.58 | quants | cjb: depends who's listening |
| 21:35.15 | shingoki | Apparently everyone but steve jobs thinks that allowing new programs to be loaded on a computing device was a step FORWARD |
| 21:35.22 | jjazz | quants: I'm not offended that you raise the idea of legal risk. I do think your vague fears are nonsense, though. Unless you can actually articulate what it is you are afraid of, it's just boogeyman nonsense. |
| 21:35.56 | quants | yeah lets stop talking about it |
| 21:36.14 | so_solid_moo | remember that when jobs says 'patents', he doesn't necessarily mean patents in the usual sense of the word |
| 21:36.23 | quants | ?? |
| 21:36.25 | so_solid_moo | a lot of apple patents are actually design patents |
| 21:36.29 | shingoki | yeah |
| 21:36.35 | so_solid_moo | as in, they cover specific look / design |
| 21:36.36 | quants | good |
| 21:36.38 | so_solid_moo | not functionality |
| 21:36.45 | shingoki | they should be more worried about people copying the look and feel |
| 21:36.49 | shingoki | since it has nothing novel really except the touch sensor |
| 21:36.50 | so_solid_moo | e.g., some ipod patents are design patents. |
| 21:37.13 | PirateHead | nobody has a patent on a touchscreen |
| 21:37.14 | *** join/#openmoko WaREX (i=WaREX@148.204.45.48) |
| 21:37.18 | PirateHead | or on a cellular device |
| 21:37.26 | WaREX | when for sale? |
| 21:37.30 | PirateHead | or on a, gasp, open source platform |
| 21:37.37 | PirateHead | so, what patents are you worrying about? |
| 21:37.38 | shingoki | they might well have a patent on whatever specific technology detects multiple touches |
| 21:37.49 | WaREX | we are on january |
| 21:37.55 | PirateHead | shingoki: no worry for us, the Neo technology doesn't do that |
| 21:38.05 | PirateHead | WaREX: deployment has been pushed back by a month or two |
| 21:38.11 | shingoki | PirateHead: yup |
| 21:38.23 | PirateHead | WaREX: initital deployment for "early release" candidites like developers in Feb, release to public some time after that |
| 21:38.33 | shingoki | Is there any graphics acceleration hardware, or just a plain framebuffer? |
| 21:39.02 | PirateHead | shingoki: where are you going to fit an additional GPU in a mobile device? and who would use it? |
| 21:39.13 | myren | on the cpu genius |
| 21:39.19 | cjb | PirateHead: often CPUs have acceleration. |
| 21:39.22 | shingoki | some SoC's have it |
| 21:39.23 | shingoki | yup |
| 21:39.28 | shingoki | like in the GP2X |
| 21:39.33 | myren | the current state is worthless |
| 21:39.35 | shingoki | some even have opengl ES |
| 21:39.37 | myren | totally useless |
| 21:39.37 | WaREX | thanks! |
| 21:39.39 | myren | but some day |
| 21:39.39 | PirateHead | shingoki: I think the mobile-device market for whom gaming is a priority have already got a PSP or DS |
| 21:39.45 | myren | Opengl ES will rule hte fucking planet |
| 21:39.58 | PirateHead | welcome, WaREX |
| 21:39.59 | shingoki | not necessarily just for gaming, I was just wondering |
| 21:40.05 | cjb | PirateHead: graphics acceleration is useful for more than gaming. |
| 21:40.22 | myren | the hardest part of hacking linux onto mobile devices is getting decent display subsystems running |
| 21:40.27 | PirateHead | cjb, et al: are you talking about a graphics card, or an integrated GPU in the processor? |
| 21:40.31 | myren | with opengl es you can just drop a completely accelerated X |
| 21:40.35 | cjb | PirateHead: neither. |
| 21:40.51 | myren | PirateHead: i think the relevant interesting stuff coming down will be integrated GPU's on the processor |
| 21:40.51 | shingoki | I was just looking at iphone and working out what it had that openmoko didn't, and it's just wifi and presumably some kind of 3d acceleration |
| 21:40.53 | PirateHead | then I have no clue what you're talking about, I'll just butt out :-) |
| 21:40.56 | cjb | PirateHead: integrated accelerated features in the CPU |
| 21:41.04 | shingoki | on the minus size, a lower res screen and an idiot in charge |
| 21:41.10 | myren | within 14 months AMD & Nvidia should both have portable CPU's with opengl acceleration built in |
| 21:41.16 | myren | its going to KICK FUCKING ASS |
| 21:41.27 | cjb | if you have completely unoptimised graphics, you can end up spending 100% CPU just moving bits around to redraw the screen. |
| 21:41.39 | shingoki | yup |
| 21:41.43 | jjazz | shingoki: The moko doesn't have accelerometers, does it? |
| 21:41.44 | quants | yuk |
| 21:41.47 | shingoki | and an accelerated UI can be very nice |
| 21:41.52 | cjb | which makes everything slow and battery life worse. so it is common to have some form of optimisation, even if it's just, say, MMX. |
| 21:42.00 | jjazz | shingoki: Gonna put beryl on the Neo? |
| 21:42.10 | shingoki | bah, accelerometers. I guess it's a nice gimmick, would have been nice for games, but since there will be no non-apple games it doesn't matter |
| 21:42.29 | cjb | yeah, accelerometers rock. |
| 21:42.40 | shingoki | jjazz, well I keep thinking that the nicest thing would be just a complete replacement for GTK, using acceleration to have a nice interface |
| 21:42.40 | jjazz | shingoki: I can't wait until we see the first pics of people who accidentally threw their iphone through their TV screen. |
| 21:42.43 | quants | hey maybe introversion could start doing games for it? |
| 21:42.44 | myren | the sweet thing about opengl is its massively paralleizable |
| 21:42.50 | shingoki | I hate to say it, but a nice interface like iphone :) |
| 21:42.50 | myren | which can actually save you huge amounts of power |
| 21:42.52 | hrw | shingoki: India guys added accelerometer into Amida palmtop - some of their games use it |
| 21:43.12 | myren | running eight cores at 20 mhz can potentailly save a lot of powre over poor framebuffer tech |
| 21:43.35 | jjazz | shingoki: I'm a low tech guy when it comes to UI. My biggest regret about these small devices is that the CLI isn't as useful. |
| 21:43.39 | PirateHead | What is accelerometer? |
| 21:43.43 | PirateHead | I've never heard of it. |
| 21:43.50 | jjazz | PirateHead: detects motion |
| 21:43.56 | cjb | and orientation. |
| 21:43.58 | quants | you just know Carmack is gonna try |
| 21:44.09 | PirateHead | Oh, I see. I actually have heard of that. |
| 21:44.14 | PirateHead | I thought you were talking about software. |
| 21:44.15 | jjazz | PirateHead: It's what lets the iphone tell which end is up and rotate the display accordingly. |
| 21:45.56 | koen | prpplague!! |
| 21:46.08 | prpplague | koen: hey hey |
| 21:46.11 | cjb | you're all crazy. :) |
| 21:46.15 | prpplague | koen: whats cookin |
| 21:46.37 | koen | prpplague: not much |
| 21:46.42 | koen | prpplague: move completed? |
| 21:47.14 | prpplague | cjb: hehe, symbol(now motorola) holds the patent on initiating a barcode scan by pulling a gun like trigger, lots of crazy patents out there |
| 21:47.21 | quants | I'm happy to see people thinking about their actions, to me it says OM will be safe |
| 21:47.35 | prpplague | koen: close, i'm in the states getting things ready, wife and kids will be up next month |
| 21:47.46 | *** join/#openmoko vargr (n=vargr@dsl092-109-027.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 21:47.48 | cjb | prpplague: there's a difference between a patent and an enforceable patent. |
| 21:48.02 | quants | cjb: too true |
| 21:48.20 | *** join/#openmoko mikesh (n=mikesh@x133.net.upc.cz) |
| 21:48.27 | shingoki | you have to be costing them money for it to be worth going after you |
| 21:48.31 | prpplague | cjb: agreed , but in alot of cases, its not about the enforcement, its about $$ to defend yourself |
| 21:48.34 | shingoki | the time to worry is if it is all a success |
| 21:48.45 | shingoki | then when you have a pile of money, you can lose it all :) |
| 21:53.51 | greentux | hrw: can you send me the svg? I am not a dev, I have no cvs etc :) |
| 21:54.04 | *** join/#openmoko TimRiker (n=timr@pdpc/supporter/bronze/TimRiker) |
| 21:54.19 | koen | greentux: http://www.openembedded.org/filebrowser/org.openembedded.dev/contrib |
| 21:54.41 | greentux | what should be else on th eshirt? |
| 21:55.14 | greentux | sorry, other channel... |
| 22:00.03 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@9.80-202-160.nextgentel.com) |
| 22:00.27 | *** join/#openmoko Melkman (n=kvirc@2001:888:1730:0:54e:8566:2ddc:a6fb) |
| 22:02.44 | prpplague | TimRiker: TIMMY! |
| 22:02.50 | prpplague | hrw|gone: later |
| 22:02.58 | prpplague | TimRiker: how goes it? |
| 22:05.30 | *** join/#openmoko Melkman (i=kvirc@2001:888:1730:0:54e:8566:2ddc:a6fb) |
| 22:06.23 | *** join/#openmoko Melkman (i=kvirc@2001:888:1730:0:54e:8566:2ddc:a6fb) |
| 22:15.01 | *** join/#openmoko lukaswayne9 (n=lukas@c-68-84-69-12.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) |
| 22:15.16 | lukaswayne9 | Hey; for what providers will openmoko phones be available? |
| 22:15.33 | Melkman | all providers you can get a sim from |
| 22:16.23 | lukaswayne9 | verzion uses an ESN number for activation... Does that mean Verizon Wireless won't be supported? |
| 22:17.14 | sean13 | Does the Neo1973 have a camera? |
| 22:17.43 | benJIman | no |
| 22:18.02 | lukaswayne9 | sounds good |
| 22:18.11 | Sketch | lukaswayne9: verizon isn't GSM |
| 22:18.29 | jjazz | lukaswayne9: In America, Verizon is CDMA only. The Neo's radio doesn't do CDMA. |
| 22:18.39 | Melkman | lukas: I don't think Verizon uses GSM... afaik from a quick google is uses EV-DO |
| 22:18.47 | lukaswayne9 | bummer |
| 22:18.51 | lukaswayne9 | my contract ends soon though |
| 22:18.57 | jjazz | lukaswayne9: In America, GSM means Cingular and T-Mobile |
| 22:19.09 | lukaswayne9 | i'll check rates for them |
| 22:19.37 | jjazz | lukaswayne9: Generally speaking, T-Mobile is held in higher esteem than Cingular, but individual experiences vary greatly. |
| 22:20.01 | lukaswayne9 | cingular gets poor service in my area |
| 22:20.22 | jjazz | lukaswayne9: Yes, lots of people complain about that. BTW, Cingular is about to disappear. It's going to be called AT&T in a few months. |
| 22:20.39 | lukaswayne9 | honestly? man |
| 22:21.00 | lukaswayne9 | t-mobile rates beat cingular rates anyway |
| 22:21.06 | jjazz | lukaswayne9: AT&T owned most of Cingular. They bought Bell South, which owned the rest, so now AT&T owns Cingular 100%. |
| 22:21.23 | shingoki | Is it triband or quad band? works in europe? |
| 22:21.38 | Melkman | quad band and will work in Europe |
| 22:21.48 | shingoki | cool |
| 22:21.55 | shingoki | and GPRS presumably? |
| 22:22.13 | shingoki | it's just a shame it doesn't have wifi |
| 22:22.13 | TimRiker | prpplague: hanging man... :) my smartphone hardware project may well kick into gear soon. |
| 22:22.40 | benJIman | shingoki: wifi would use so much power running of phone battery, in an external thing perhaps |
| 22:22.49 | jjazz | shingoki: I agree, but the battery life would make the wifi worthless anyway. |
| 22:22.50 | benJIman | shingoki: 3g would be more useful in a phone probably |
| 22:23.12 | prpplague | TimRiker: oh? what project is that? |
| 22:23.15 | jjazz | It's a shame batery technology is so primitive. |
| 22:23.21 | prpplague | TimRiker: i've been out of the loop lately |
| 22:23.47 | shingoki | 3g would be good if the phone companies sorted out |
| 22:24.01 | shingoki | but I think wifi would be useful, just for 2 minute checks of email near hotspots |
| 22:24.08 | benJIman | Seem to have sorted 3g out quite nicely now |
| 22:24.08 | shingoki | anyway, cool stuff :) cya |
| 22:24.35 | TimRiker | company planning to build a smartphone. quad band gsm/gprs/edge, vga display, bluetooth, wifi, gps, sd slot, usb host and client, keyboard, etc. |
| 22:24.49 | jjazz | TimRiker: What company? |
| 22:24.54 | TimRiker | linux based. of course. :) |
| 22:24.56 | lukaswayne9 | Hmm, I might end up sticking with verizon. I can't beat $20 with unlimited txt , unlimitted verizon, and free nights/weekends with 500 minutes.. i'm on a family plan |
| 22:24.59 | prpplague | TimRiker: cool deal, what cpu? |
| 22:25.07 | TimRiker | jjazz: company is called PSNet Inc. |
| 22:25.26 | TimRiker | prpplague: yet to be determined for certian, but most likely an omap. |
| 22:25.39 | prpplague | TimRiker: ahh |
| 22:25.47 | benJIman | So I suppose buying a £180 openmoko might be a bit extravagent as I have no use-case for a phone |
| 22:25.54 | koen | TimRiker: I hope omap2 or omap3 |
| 22:26.08 | TimRiker | omap2 is the most likely at this point. |
| 22:26.10 | koen | although omap1 is getting pretty cheap |
| 22:26.25 | TimRiker | want usb 2.0 for both host and client. |
| 22:26.30 | koen | TimRiker: yeah, arm11 eliminates a lot of the usual headaches |
| 22:26.40 | prpplague | TimRiker: gonna use the DSP for optimized a/v as well as the radio? |
| 22:27.04 | koen | TimRiker: omap with or without iva? |
| 22:27.05 | TimRiker | that's the plan, yes. |
| 22:27.27 | jjazz | TimRiker: Geez, those specs are ambitious |
| 22:27.27 | TimRiker | iva? wow. and acronym I don't know. :) |
| 22:27.45 | TimRiker | jjazz: read "that will be a big phone" and yes, they are. |
| 22:27.57 | jjazz | TimRiker: And spendy? |
| 22:27.59 | koen | TimRiker: iva is the mpeg 'asic'type thingy |
| 22:28.08 | rob_w | TimRiker, put all into battery life and powermanagment .. thats the door opener in my eyes these days |
| 22:28.23 | TimRiker | retail (like that happens) would be like $700 usd |
| 22:28.24 | jjazz | rob_w: I agree |
| 22:28.43 | prpplague | TimRiker: yea geting a usb2.0 host/client is an issue with alot of SoC's at the momment |
| 22:29.13 | TimRiker | rob_w: yes. planning to use all the power management goo we can get running. clock and power adjustments, etc. |
| 22:29.14 | myren | TimRiker: what do you intend to do for celluar connectivity? |
| 22:29.14 | jjazz | TimRiker: No keyboard? ;) |
| 22:29.30 | TimRiker | jjazz: yes, slide out keyboard. |
| 22:29.44 | TimRiker | jjazz: though bluetooth keyboards will also work. |
| 22:29.58 | koen | prpplague: since there's 'usb 2' and usb 2 |
| 22:30.13 | TimRiker | myren: gsm/gprs/edge quad band. hoping for 3g too, but that's up in the air at the moment. |
| 22:30.18 | jjazz | TimRiker: Hell, if you can actually build that, keep it open and free and get it through cell provider sales channels, I'll take a dozen. |
| 22:30.29 | TimRiker | jjazz: that's the hope. :) |
| 22:30.42 | jjazz | TimRiker: It's a tough road, but I wish you luck. |
| 22:30.44 | myren | TimRiker: are there off the shelf silicon solutions available for that kind of stuff? |
| 22:31.03 | TimRiker | it _will_ include a cd with full gpl/lgpl/bsd/etc sources right in the box. |
| 22:31.21 | koen | tuxscreen++++ ? |
| 22:31.24 | TimRiker | myren: not quite. that's why some of that is up in the air. |
| 22:31.34 | rob_w | i would even attach a buffer battery to run the device 2 minutes for exchanging the main battery |
| 22:31.36 | TimRiker | koen: heh. don't wait for the $99 discount though. :) |
| 22:31.52 | TimRiker | rob_w: super cap in there for that. |
| 22:32.14 | rob_w | right .. those should do it these days for some time |
| 22:32.18 | jjazz | TimRiker: That's a big cap |
| 22:32.19 | Stephmw | TimRiker: it's good to know it's moving forwards |
| 22:32.50 | TimRiker | opening the battery will auto-suspend everything so that the cap should be able to keep things alive till the re-plug. |
| 22:32.57 | rob_w | TimRiker, what is the target market time ? |
| 22:32.58 | TimRiker | means that the phone will hang up though. |
| 22:33.09 | TimRiker | rob_w: end of this year. |
| 22:33.16 | benJIman | What company is this? |
| 22:33.16 | rob_w | well one cant have everything |
| 22:33.25 | benJIman | If it ends up as big as the n800 it's pointless. |
| 22:33.36 | benJIman | There are smaller laptops |
| 22:33.36 | TimRiker | benJIman: effectively a startup. PSNet is the name. |
| 22:33.38 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@9.80-202-160.nextgentel.com) |
| 22:33.40 | myren | so sad there's no phone on the n800 |
| 22:33.46 | jjazz | benJIman: With all that HW and ports, the thing won't be pocket-sized. |
| 22:33.50 | rob_w | n800 != phone imho |
| 22:33.57 | TimRiker | benJIman: smaller than the n800 |
| 22:34.11 | benJIman | jjazz: if it's too big to fit in a pocket I think it's missed market |
| 22:34.19 | Stephmw | TimRiker: outsourcing the hardware ergonomics? |
| 22:34.20 | TimRiker | but it may be that heavy with the large battery. |
| 22:34.21 | benJIman | if you have to carry a bag you could just take a smal laptop |
| 22:34.26 | stefan_schmidt | hi TimRiker |
| 22:34.35 | TimRiker | Stephmw: yes. in the middle of those talks now. |
| 22:34.39 | stefan_schmidt | TimRiker: Thinking about OpenMoko on the phone? :) |
| 22:35.07 | Stephmw | TimRiker: going for TS-only, or something sensible with numpad, dpad and softkeys? |
| 22:35.14 | jjazz | TimRiker: What's your position with PSNet? |
| 22:35.18 | TimRiker | stefan_schmidt: yes. don't worry folks here and in openezx etc will be the first ones able to get prototypes. |
| 22:35.38 | stefan_schmidt | TimRiker: heh, sounds great |
| 22:36.25 | koen | stefan_schmidt: tired, but satisfied? |
| 22:36.28 | benJIman | iphone has the size compromise right imo |
| 22:36.30 | TimRiker | Stephmw: not ready to show the plans yet, but the hope is to have a small dial pad as well as a pull out keyboard. I am a bit over the top in requirements there though, the keyboard has to be sturdy or we won't do it. |
| 22:36.41 | benJIman | much smaller and you can't browse web on the display, any bigger and it won't fit in pocket |
| 22:37.07 | Stephmw | TimRiker: that's fine :) details aren't needed yet :) |
| 22:37.13 | TimRiker | benJIman: nod. it'll be smaller than the n800 but larger than most phones. vga display. |
| 22:37.36 | rob_w | we need to get a pda web proxy service where all pics or stupid frames get out of the way or such |
| 22:37.48 | stefan_schmidt | koen: Yes, AP/BP still not done, but nice progress anyway. In short: mux_cli port to x86, fixed two or three bugs in mux_cli |
| 22:37.52 | Stephmw | rob_w: there's already such a thing from Opera |
| 22:37.57 | koen | stefan_schmidt: sweet |
| 22:38.03 | Stephmw | rob_w: and Opera Mini does a splendid job with it too |
| 22:38.08 | koen | rob_w: 'lynx' ;) |
| 22:38.15 | TimRiker | rob_w: agreed. lots of backend services are needed. imap/calendaring/web proxy/etc. |
| 22:38.17 | rob_w | koen, yeey |
| 22:38.28 | benJIman | TimRiker: not sure an integrated keyboard is necessary if interface is designed well |
| 22:38.41 | jjazz | benJIman: A keyboar is always needed if the device is going to be an email client |
| 22:38.47 | stefan_schmidt | koen: I'll write a mail this night or tomorrow. It's a question how much time I have before fall asleep. |
| 22:38.49 | jjazz | (or, in my case, an ssh client) |
| 22:38.53 | *** part/#openmoko vargr (n=vargr@dsl092-109-027.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 22:38.58 | TimRiker | benJIman: agreed. with the bluetooth keyboard option available as well even more so. |
| 22:39.00 | Melkman | Heh, for running IRC on a phone a keyboard is a definite advantage |
| 22:39.08 | pjz | if ya need a keyboard, get a BT one |
| 22:39.08 | benJIman | jjazz: touch screen can be keyboard though |
| 22:39.16 | Stephmw | Melkman: agreed - at a minimum, the P910 keyboard was usable |
| 22:39.31 | jjazz | benJIman: Yes, but speed suffers greatly on touch screens. |
| 22:39.45 | benJIman | TimRiker: yeah, ideal would be something like iphone design of one big screen, with a dock with bigger battery and keyboard or something |
| 22:39.47 | jjazz | benJIman: BT keyboard might suffice, though. |
| 22:39.55 | benJIman | like the ibm x-series laptops dock for extra stuff |
| 22:40.00 | mjr | would also work as a remote control for the home computer, also a media player... |
| 22:40.01 | Stephmw | mjr: problem with BT keyboards is that you can't use them without a stable surface |
| 22:40.04 | TimRiker | benJIman: /me nods and smiles. |
| 22:40.10 | benJIman | jjazz: speed suffers on anything that small |
| 22:40.35 | TimRiker | mjr: ir transmitter is still an open question. |
| 22:40.36 | Stephmw | TimRiker: UI design also getting done by non-devs? ;) |
| 22:40.38 | benJIman | though the zaurus thumb keyboard I can get pretty decent speeds on |
| 22:40.40 | jjazz | TimRiker: Make a slide-out keyboard that's easy to use with emacs, and you will be king of the geeks. |
| 22:40.45 | jjazz | benJIman: True enough. |
| 22:40.51 | Sketch | i <heart> my zaurus |
| 22:41.00 | benJIman | Stephmw: developers arn't necessarily bad UI designers |
| 22:41.01 | TimRiker | Stephmw: not so far. need more people there. :( |
| 22:41.03 | Sketch | if it just had a cellphone built in, it would be perfect ;) |
| 22:41.07 | mjr | TimRiker, I meant the BT keyboard ;) |
| 22:41.19 | benJIman | Stephmw: it's just that developer doesn't imply good UI designers, but there are plenty of people good at both |
| 22:41.24 | TimRiker | jjazz: no emacs. just busybox vi. :) |
| 22:41.35 | benJIman | also lots of people who are good at one but not the other |
| 22:41.42 | quants | people need to start to think differently about these devices |
| 22:41.50 | Stephmw | benJIman: no, but typically, average designers are a hell of a lot better at UI design (and interaction) than developers :) |
| 22:42.00 | quants | irc, keyboards, remotes? |
| 22:42.03 | TimRiker | quants: isn't that "think different" ? :) |
| 22:42.08 | Stephmw | benJIman: I've worked on a number of such projects with designers |
| 22:42.30 | benJIman | The set of developers and the Set of designers intersect |
| 22:42.36 | Stephmw | benJIman: you may see some descendants of my proofs of concepts on Orange handsets in a few years |
| 22:43.00 | quants | I like the gps, with a good netlink you could use gpsd to let select people find you |
| 22:43.13 | benJIman | I havn't seen a PDA or a phone in the 4 years or so since I got my zaurus that actually looks like an improvement. |
| 22:43.13 | TimRiker | well, I got deeper into this than I meant to. prpplague is not even on anymore. :) |
| 22:43.18 | Stephmw | haha |
| 22:43.33 | benJIman | openmoko and iphone are first things looking innovative |
| 22:43.40 | Stephmw | benJIman: in the end, UI design is about consistency (no matter how ugly) |
| 22:43.40 | mjr | btw, can bt keyboards generally be paired to more than one computer, such that it wouldn't be cumbersome to swap if you're typing to the phone or the workstation? |
| 22:43.42 | quants | indeed |
| 22:43.53 | Stephmw | benJIman: Nokia S40 handsets for instance are very consistent |
| 22:44.04 | Stephmw | benJIman: even if the UI is really limited |
| 22:44.19 | benJIman | Stephmw: yes indeed, especially compared to motorola madness |
| 22:44.35 | benJIman | motorola UI actuallly changes the positions of the cancel and ok buttons arround as you're navigating |
| 22:44.46 | benJIman | The sort of crazy thing GNOME UI designers do |
| 22:44.48 | Psi | if a country doesnt support 2.5G edge, will the neo just run at 2g gprs ? |
| 22:44.51 | TimRiker | I'll likely get some design concepts up on the web someplace where I can point you folks to and get comments. :) |
| 22:45.14 | mjr | Psi, the Neo does not actually support edge, but plain gprs |
| 22:45.28 | TimRiker | Psi: so that's a yes. :) |
| 22:45.39 | benJIman | Psi: I don't think neo supports edge, unfortunately not 3g either |
| 22:45.39 | Psi | ah, i must have misread something someone someone on here |
| 22:45.43 | Psi | yeah |
| 22:45.56 | Psi | does anyone know if 3G is planed for the next model neo? |
| 22:46.00 | Stephmw | TimRiker: I'll be happy to corner my designer buddies when you do |
| 22:46.05 | benJIman | Are there actually any edge networks outside the US? |
| 22:46.16 | TimRiker | Stephmw: sweet. I'll hold you to that. :) |
| 22:46.22 | Psi | not here (nz) just 2G and 3G |
| 22:46.26 | mjr | I'm not sure, but I think there _may_ be edge around here... |
| 22:46.35 | *** part/#openmoko pack_ (i=pack@random.supermario.org) |
| 22:46.41 | Melkman | benji: Telfort runs EDGE in the Netherlands |
| 22:47.01 | Melkman | about to be dismantled this year though |
| 22:47.04 | Stephmw | koen: yegads man. that thing should be buried |
| 22:47.12 | mjr | yes, apparently there is edge service here in Finland |
| 22:47.18 | mjr | ah well, I'll live with gprs |
| 22:47.42 | jjazz | Hey, maybe you people can help me with this: a young lady told me she wants a cool, exotic cell that nobody else has but everybody will be jealous of. And she wants it in sparkly pink. It's ok if she has to go to Asia to get it. What phone should she get? |
| 22:47.56 | Stephmw | mjr: I'm sure you'll find every type of cellular network around Oulu |
| 22:48.02 | Psi | hehe |
| 22:48.27 | Stephmw | mjr: and probably around Tampere |
| 22:48.37 | Stephmw | (sp) |
| 22:48.48 | mjr | Tampere is correct :] |
| 22:49.27 | Psi | having it in sparkly pink will instantly make half the population not jealous of it at all |
| 22:49.44 | jjazz | Psi: The population she's concerned with will love it. |
| 22:49.49 | Psi | hehe |
| 22:49.58 | jjazz | Psi: She's a party girl. |
| 22:50.17 | TimRiker | go to your neighborhood phone center, pick up a phone. take it to a auto paint shop. have it painted sparkly pink. |
| 22:50.27 | Psi | ^^ |
| 22:50.37 | kaboofa | heh |
| 22:50.41 | Psi | yeah, autopaint will make it look great |
| 22:50.54 | jjazz | TimRiker: the phone itself has to be exotic. She doesn't need exotic features, but a small touchscreen phone from Malaysia or something is what she wants. |
| 22:50.59 | *** join/#openmoko netx303 (n=rlange@n2-3-206.dhcp.drexel.edu) |
| 22:51.13 | TimRiker | you just missed CES. there were lots there. |
| 22:51.16 | jjazz | TimRiker: She's looking for great display, decent camera and decent UI. And sparkels. |
| 22:51.25 | jjazz | TimRiker: I'm not a journalist. |
| 22:51.28 | Stephmw | mjr: your name looked familiar... but then I remembered that to me a lot of finish names probably will do :) |
| 22:51.31 | TimRiker | there was one phone that was just a touchscreen. very sleek looking. not pink though. |
| 22:51.38 | jjazz | TimRiker: What's it called? |
| 22:51.45 | Stephmw | *Finnish |
| 22:52.17 | jjazz | If she's nice to me, maybe I'll paint it for her. |
| 22:52.21 | benJIman | The iphone is quite similar to a padd |
| 22:52.23 | Psi | how about http://www.gizmodiva.com/mobile_phones/lenovo_i807_pink_phone.php |
| 22:52.55 | jjazz | Psi: Now *that* is what she's looking for. |
| 22:53.15 | Stephmw | TimRiker: I'd love to recreate some of what SavaJe did on these open platform phones |
| 22:53.20 | jjazz | Psi: Thanks! |
| 22:53.25 | Psi | np |
| 22:53.34 | Stephmw | TimRiker: although it will have to be J2SE, I'm not allowed to do J2ME |
| 22:53.52 | *** join/#openmoko ymo000 (n=ymo000@82.201.195.248) |
| 22:53.55 | ymo000 | howdy |
| 22:55.40 | TimRiker | Stephmw: not allowed? |
| 22:55.53 | jjazz | Psi: Now, how the hell does she buy one? |
| 22:56.07 | Psi | no idea, i just googled pink touchscreen phone |
| 22:56.18 | Stephmw | TimRiker: I work on a closed-source J2ME implementation... it'd be a bit of a conflict ;-) |
| 22:56.28 | greentux | I bet there will be more than 5 open/nearly open linux phones end of year... |
| 22:56.41 | jjazz | Fair enough. |
| 22:58.01 | Psi | is that the gps driver? |
| 22:58.12 | koen | yes |
| 22:58.34 | myren | um, cellular modems == hard as fuck to do |
| 22:59.49 | greentux | koen: that is a matter of time... same problem like the 3945 daemon on linux (although bsd an free version has) |
| 23:00.06 | quants | sun gpl'd a java jvm called phoneme |
| 23:00.51 | Stephmw | quants: yes, it's the J2ME core sources for CDC and CLDC |
| 23:01.10 | Stephmw | quants: including the KVMProxy and some basic tests |
| 23:01.18 | Stephmw | quants: the GNU Classpath guys are looking at it |
| 23:01.34 | quants | wonderful |
| 23:01.55 | TimRiker | I can't find a link to the slim touchscreen phone I saw. |
| 23:02.13 | TimRiker | Stephmw: ah. ic. |
| 23:02.18 | quants | it's nice to see all the pieces come together |
| 23:02.38 | jjazz | TimRiker: That's ok. I'll keep watching. |
| 23:03.47 | Stephmw | TimRiker: so, while I can't chat about detailed stuff, if there's ever any questions about the.. hmmm... ecosystem, feel free to ask |
| 23:08.02 | *** join/#openmoko netx303 (n=rlange@n2-3-206.dhcp.drexel.edu) |
| 23:08.26 | TimRiker | heh |
| 23:08.54 | TimRiker | I can't find the no-button phone. it was kinda like the nokia 7380 |
| 23:09.22 | Stephmw | I think I know the monstrosity you're talking about |
| 23:09.30 | Stephmw | can't remember its name either |
| 23:09.30 | jjazz | It's out there. Maybe I'll just tell her to get a Neo. |
| 23:09.52 | Melkman | will it be available in pink ?!? |
| 23:10.00 | Sencer | jjazz: Xun Chi 138? it's small... |
| 23:10.15 | jjazz | Melkman: If she's got an airbrush and some masking tape. |
| 23:10.40 | TimRiker | http://www.nokiausa.com/phones/7380 |
| 23:10.52 | jjazz | Sencer: Heh. That's like Zoolander small |
| 23:10.54 | Stephmw | TimRiker: we called that one the lipstick phone |
| 23:10.59 | TimRiker | but the one I saw at CES was black, with a larger display. |
| 23:11.57 | jjazz | Stephmw: Nokia made a lipstick phone a couple years ago. It had a partially leather casing and dialed via a scroll wheel |
| 23:12.03 | thresh_ | TimRiker: thanks for bzz :) |
| 23:13.32 | TimRiker | :) |
| 23:16.25 | *** join/#openmoko _rob (n=rob@ACAD05A9.ipt.aol.com) |
| 23:50.07 | buz | suppose the neo is released until fosdem (which sure hope it will be), can we get discount if we buy a numerb of them there? |
| 23:53.07 | *** part/#openmoko netx303 (n=rlange@n2-3-206.dhcp.drexel.edu) |
| 23:53.15 | buz | mhh next or 2nd next day round the world is expensive |
| 23:53.30 | Stephmw | xkr47: depends where from, do we know? |
| 23:53.35 | buz | then again, a cellphone could be put in a relaly tiny box |
| 23:53.40 | buz | taiwan |
| 23:53.40 | xkr47 | I don't :) |
| 23:53.42 | buz | possibly china |
| 23:53.58 | xkr47 | mjf :) |
| 23:54.00 | buz | bloody keyboard |
| 23:54.00 | xkr47 | mjr :) |
| 23:54.06 | mjr | if you happen to live in Helsinki, maybe we can group order to cut postage tho |
| 23:54.14 | Stephmw | mjr: it'd almost be easier to somehow bundle a trip to FOSDEM if the Neo happens to be out by then :) |
| 23:54.15 | buz | maybe the battery is low or something |
| 23:54.24 | buz | Stephmw: exactly |
| 23:54.25 | xkr47 | hyvä idea! |
| 23:54.32 | *** join/#openmoko z3cka (n=z3cka@nv-71-2-213-25.sta.embarqhsd.net) |
| 23:54.44 | xkr47 | joo laitetaan silleen |
| 23:56.27 | z3cka | so when is openmoko.com going to be updated with new developments in the openmoko world? |
| 23:57.38 | buz | that's gotta be wrong |
| 23:57.59 | buz | 80 EUR for flight to brussels during fosdem |
| 23:58.42 | stefan_schmidt | buz: 50EUR from germany. |
| 23:58.48 | buz | mhh |
| 23:58.50 | buz | this is switzerland |
| 23:59.06 | buz | i would expect it to cost 200E from zurich |
| 23:59.09 | buz | (80E with BA thru Heathrow) |
| 23:59.10 | Stephmw | buz: the finns will have the brunt of it for europeans |
| 23:59.30 | buz | is fosdem worth it? |
| 23:59.33 | Stephmw | buz: wtf? you'd bounce via the uk to belgium...? |
| 23:59.42 | z3cka | is there a conference coming up? |
| 23:59.46 | buz | for 100E less? i might |
| 23:59.56 | Stephmw | z3cka: FOSDEM in brussels |
