| 00:15.50 | Psi_ | i wonder if it will be possible to create a cheap data connection between two neo's by simulating a videocall and using it for data |
| 00:16.06 | Psi_ | since there are deals for unlimited videocalling etc.. |
| 00:17.00 | wiml | ... then you could have one neo at home connected to your computer, acting as a gateway ... |
| 00:17.07 | Psi_ | very true :) |
| 00:17.41 | Psi_ | anyone know how many bits/s a videocall uses? |
| 00:28.56 | cjb | Psi_: Usually about 30KB/s each way. |
| 00:29.01 | cjb | assuming 15fps, 640x480. |
| 00:29.11 | Psi_ | thats pretty good |
| 00:29.52 | Psi_ | is that uncompressed tho? because i bet they heavily compress it |
| 00:30.15 | wiml | that's totally compressed |
| 00:30.25 | wiml | because otherwise it'd be just 2kB/frame |
| 00:30.35 | Psi_ | hehe ok |
| 00:30.43 | Psi_ | well 30KB/s is a nice data connection |
| 00:31.17 | Psi_ | for a phone anyway |
| 00:32.55 | *** join/#openmoko thedaniel_ (n=daniel@38.98.1.19) |
| 00:33.41 | cjb | yes, that's using something like h.263. |
| 00:34.58 | Psi_ | got a deal on here atm for ~US$4/month you can have unlimited videocalling to one phone number |
| 00:35.21 | Psi_ | two phones + $8/m = unlimted 30KB/s internet :P |
| 00:38.47 | mjr | you won't get 30KB/s without 3g tho... |
| 00:40.20 | Psi_ | yeah, and the neo isnt 3g right? |
| 00:40.33 | *** join/#openmoko PirateHead (n=piratehe@AC80F047.ipt.aol.com) |
| 00:40.34 | mjr | indeed it isn't |
| 00:40.55 | PirateHead | the iPhone |
| 00:41.01 | Psi_ | pity, lets hope v2 is 3g with camera and wifi, |
| 00:41.18 | PirateHead | is so much like the Neo 1973 |
| 00:41.25 | PirateHead | in its physical design |
| 00:42.08 | *** join/#openmoko naikan (i=ai@85-158-213-129.powered-by.benesol.be) |
| 00:42.08 | PirateHead | it's gonna make me look much less geeky walking around with my Neo 1973 |
| 00:42.08 | PirateHead | with no hardware buttons |
| 00:42.08 | mjr | haha, yeah :) |
| 00:42.25 | PirateHead | but I didn't need Apple to tell me no buttons was sexy anyways |
| 00:42.36 | PirateHead | I've always thought the tons of buttons on smartphones are butt ugly |
| 00:43.01 | PirateHead | the Treo line looks scaly |
| 00:43.54 | Psi_ | where is a pic of this iphone? |
| 00:45.58 | PirateHead | http://blog.wired.com/wiredphotos16/ on Wired News |
| 00:46.03 | PirateHead | might be one on Apple's website |
| 00:48.10 | PirateHead | you'll notice, it can ONLY be carried on the Cingular network |
| 00:48.25 | PirateHead | I don't know if Cingular even gives service in Europe |
| 00:49.41 | holycow | i hate the iphone |
| 00:49.46 | holycow | that looks completely stupid |
| 00:49.52 | Psi_ | ^ |
| 00:49.58 | holycow | how the hell do you dial using an lcd? |
| 00:50.05 | holycow | it doesn't even have a flip cover |
| 00:50.21 | holycow | lean on something a smidge and there goes the display |
| 00:50.47 | holycow | of course i bet like the ipod, you can't change the battery, you haveto replace the whole device when the battery dies, am i right? |
| 00:51.47 | Psi_ | holycow, touchscreen lcd |
| 00:51.53 | Psi_ | i assume |
| 00:59.39 | holycow | i guess it looks like openmoko will have same |
| 00:59.39 | holycow | lets see how it plays you |
| 01:00.59 | cjb | holycow: it's a multitouch screen. not sure why you'd trash it without finding it out what it is first.. |
| 01:02.19 | holycow | a touch screen is a touch screen ... lacks tactile feel, requires greater dexterity and its incredibly prone to cracking |
| 01:02.27 | holycow | i've destroyed a few devices like that accidentally |
| 01:03.28 | *** join/#openmoko Paavo (i=jplauril@a88-113-3-236.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 01:03.46 | Psi_ | only if you keep jabbing it with a pen or your fingernail instead of something soft |
| 01:04.56 | holycow | thats not how they break |
| 01:05.00 | Psi_ | few months back i saw someone at a restaurant entering orders on a 15" touchscreen with a nicely sharpened pencil! |
| 01:05.05 | holycow | you put it in a briefcase or a pocket and lean |
| 01:05.37 | Psi_ | yeah, obviously you have to watch you dont force something into the screen |
| 01:05.55 | holycow | thats the thing ... flipphones thats really not an issue at all |
| 01:07.18 | spikebik1 | I have a nokia 770 (big flat screen covering 90% of the unit) I've not had an issue |
| 01:08.32 | spikebik1 | although a fair number of my button presses are on the scroll/pan button or zoom in/out |
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| 01:08.55 | spikebik1 | I wonder what the buttons/slots on the edge of the ipone are |
| 01:10.19 | *** join/#openmoko LeeColleton (n=lnc@66.249.86.71) |
| 01:11.53 | holycow | http://www.flipstartpc.com/ <-- these guys updated look and feel of site but now no news on the product |
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| 01:14.49 | *** join/#openmoko rejon (n=rejon@oc.iis.sinica.edu.tw) |
| 01:26.37 | Ycros | spikebik1: my biggest issue with the 770 and the 800 is that they're not phones |
| 01:28.34 | *** join/#openmoko koen (n=koen@dominion.kabel.utwente.nl) |
| 01:30.23 | Psi_ | thats a pretty BIG issue :P |
| 01:30.32 | LeeColleton | Ycros spikebik1: They don't make them like they used to. Good old lead acid batteries and wires... |
| 01:31.56 | LeeColleton | I mean that everything is now a software controlled radio to some degree. Some phones just have lousy software. |
| 01:31.56 | cbpage | heh |
| 01:32.07 | Ycros | if the 770 was a phone, I'd have one already |
| 01:32.27 | LeeColleton | Will a future generation of the openmoko phone have bluetooth and/or wifi? |
| 01:32.27 | Ycros | it's strange, coming from nokia and not being a phone |
| 01:33.10 | LeeColleton | Ycros: you're upset that it doesn't have GSM? |
| 01:33.33 | Ycros | LeeColleton: yes |
| 01:43.03 | *** join/#openmoko darmou (n=darmou@mail.planforlife.com.au) |
| 01:43.19 | darmou | hi all, has anyone seen the new apple iPhone? |
| 01:43.38 | Ycros | lies! |
| 01:43.49 | Ycros | HOLY CRAP |
| 01:43.59 | Ycros | I was on the apple page 10mins ago and it wasn't there |
| 01:44.36 | darmou | http://www.apple.com/iphone/ |
| 01:45.08 | darmou | Ycros nice interface wonder if there are any lessons that OpenMoko could pick up |
| 01:45.32 | Ycros | it's a lickable inteface |
| 01:45.41 | wiml | on a candybar phone |
| 01:46.00 | darmou | I wonder if it's 3g |
| 01:46.26 | *** join/#openmoko thedaniel (n=daniel@38.98.1.19) |
| 01:46.49 | Ycros | but it's also an ipod and stuff |
| 01:47.28 | darmou | hi thedaniel |
| 01:48.32 | darmou | hmm portable safari, I think the gpe-minibrowser uses khtml is there a web browser for OpenMoko? |
| 01:49.41 | Ycros | I think the gpe one uses gecko |
| 01:49.51 | Ycros | or whatever the 770 maemo project came up with |
| 01:50.02 | cbpage | maemo uses opera |
| 01:50.10 | darmou | wow it has wifi built in http://www.apple.com/iphone/technology/specs.html |
| 01:50.13 | cbpage | there's some non-free stuff at very low levels in maemo - at least 1.x |
| 01:50.23 | cbpage | it's hard to make an alternate firmware for it |
| 01:50.43 | Ycros | oh okay |
| 01:51.01 | *** part/#openmoko wiml (n=wiml@porygon.omnigroup.com) |
| 01:51.45 | darmou | I mentioned before that you could plug a usb wi fi adapter into the Neo but wolud be a bit clunky hopefully they will build in wi fi into next device version |
| 01:51.52 | cjb | cbpage: huh? nokia already released a free firmware for it. |
| 01:52.00 | cjb | all it's missing is the opera browser and the handwriting recognition |
| 01:52.06 | cjb | which aren't low-level. |
| 01:55.34 | jaebird | link to some cool multi-touch touch screens: http://cs.nyu.edu/~jhan/ftirtouch/ |
| 01:56.47 | Psi_ | i reckon you could take a small 3.5mm stereo plug and stick and IR driver inside, instant IR remote control capability for the neo using the soundoutput :) |
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| 02:53.04 | spikebik1 | darmou wifi adapter would need power |
| 02:53.56 | darmou | spikebik1 yes you need a battery powered hub |
| 02:54.48 | spikebik1 | at that point you might as well get a wifi AP that handles bluetooth |
| 02:54.59 | spikebik1 | er, not sure of the moko has bt or not |
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| 03:07.39 | jjazz | cjb: You know of any decent free software handwriting recognition? |
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| 04:03.09 | LeeColleton | no preorders yet? I thought this thing was announced as "available". What does that mean? |
| 04:03.19 | LeeColleton | is Apple suing you already? |
| 04:05.04 | *** join/#openmoko Dex (n=Dex@c-e512e255.127-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) |
| 04:08.44 | Dex | anyone here who had some time withe the neo? |
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| 04:34.34 | spikebik1 | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:34.39 | spikebik1 | oops |
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| 04:51.16 | PirateHead | Seeing the iPhone makes me want the Neo right away. |
| 04:56.17 | aloril | hmm.. I hope they didn't patent out all nifty ideas that would have been implemented in openmoko :-( |
| 04:56.41 | cbpage | ditto |
| 04:56.50 | aloril | like multigesture was talked in mailing list and here and web before iPhone introduction |
| 04:57.07 | aloril | every time I hear somebody invented something I hope that they either: |
| 04:57.10 | aloril | 1) didn't patent it |
| 04:57.22 | aloril | 2) would have kept mouth shut and not invented it at all |
| 04:57.55 | aloril | because... in case of 2 there is still possibility that somebody else invents it and its possible to use it actually |
| 04:58.35 | aloril | however, I'm surely going to personally ignore patents, I will code whatever I want on my personal phone (and fortunately openmoko is open for that ;-) |
| 05:00.28 | aloril | no matter what iPhone has, it is missing one feature: source code |
| 05:00.56 | cbpage | also missing insanely high DPI screen |
| 05:01.10 | aloril | yeah |
| 05:01.58 | aloril | one good point though: porting between iPhone and OpenMoKo might be feasible for many apps (underlying unix) |
| 05:02.13 | aloril | or maybe not, toolkit is different :-( |
| 05:02.17 | cbpage | the gui stuff would be different |
| 05:03.28 | aloril | that slide to open, I wish I had talked about unlocking ideas before seeing it, but basically I recall them like this: |
| 05:03.44 | aloril | "something that is hard to do accidentally, but really easy to do on purpose" |
| 05:03.59 | aloril | ie.. some kind of gesture |
| 05:12.35 | aloril | hmm... but europe shouldn't have software patents, so... maybe separate repository for software patent free zones |
| 05:21.10 | spikebik1 | the zoom/unzoom/menus with momentum have all been done/documents, i.e. prior art |
| 05:23.02 | aloril | to quote myself (slightly edited): well.. there are several things worse in any N series compared to neo: |
| 05:23.08 | aloril | 1) closed 2) need external keyboard for fast text entry (assuming that neo has enough good touch screen here) 3) smaller display (and not touch display) 4) I don't think they have USB host support 5) they cost more too |
| 05:23.18 | aloril | 1) is *must*, 2) practically required (imagine using (x)emacs with N series without external keyboard (they do support external foldable bluetoot on so its possible)) 3) is nice thing to have, 4) makes it 'infinitely' extentable 5) always nice thing to have |
| 05:23.57 | aloril | well... let seee iPhone: 1) Nope, 2) Yes/maybe (if not enough good, maybe can be added, at least hardware seems to support it) |
| 05:24.21 | aloril | 3) resolution slower, physical size bigger(?) |
| 05:24.30 | aloril | 4) probably not |
| 05:24.34 | aloril | 5) more expensive |
| 05:24.40 | aloril | neo looks good ;-) |
| 05:27.11 | aloril | for example about 1): can you route audio from/to GSM/phone(mic/speaker/audio jack) ? |
| 05:27.36 | PirateHead | aloril - have you seen the spec for HexInput? |
| 05:27.55 | PirateHead | I'm going to implement it for the neo |
| 05:27.58 | PirateHead | if somebody doesn't beat me to it |
| 05:30.16 | aloril | PirateHead: yes, though I wonder if something even more efficient is possible by using multiple simultaneous gestures |
| 05:30.32 | aloril | ie.. MultiHexInput |
| 05:30.42 | PirateHead | for text input? |
| 05:30.45 | PirateHead | for 26 letters? |
| 05:31.25 | PirateHead | plus common punctuation, etc? |
| 05:32.07 | PirateHead | well, I don't see how that would work, but that doesn't mean that it couldn't |
| 05:32.10 | *** join/#openmoko greentux_alt (n=m@195.227.105.180) |
| 05:32.13 | PirateHead | basically, my thought is |
| 05:32.40 | PirateHead | just because Steve Jobs says "ZOMG multi input!!!1" doesn't mean that suddenly everything would be better that way |
| 05:32.57 | aloril | text input by syllables, code input, xemacs key combinations, open arbitrary often used application/web site, etc.. numerous things ;-) |
| 05:33.00 | PirateHead | certianly, it can be implemented to increase usability |
| 05:33.20 | aloril | PirateHead: umm.. I was talking about what I said above *before* iPhone |
| 05:33.37 | Ycros | yeah |
| 05:33.46 | aloril | even repeatedly asking how good multitouch is on neo ;-) |
| 05:34.35 | aloril | sure, I'm missing on details, but those partially depend on how good multitouch is (hardware) |
| 05:35.56 | aloril | also I think it will take some time to actually find what works in practice |
| 05:36.13 | PirateHead | naturally |
| 05:36.31 | aloril | however, it might be that most efficient ones are not really possible for consumer devices (points to vi/xemacs) |
| 05:36.42 | aloril | I mean... to provide as default ;-) |
| 05:36.46 | PirateHead | one thing that I really want to try in practice: chorded input |
| 05:36.58 | PirateHead | vi and emacs are entirely dependant on a touch-type keyboard |
| 05:37.14 | PirateHead | implement vi with a stylus interface and you lose essentially everything |
| 05:37.24 | aloril | PirateHead: yup, multitouch == chorded if enough good |
| 05:37.26 | PirateHead | the speed, the power, the utility |
| 05:37.58 | aloril | right, so multitouch is needed for those like I have envisioned for some days |
| 05:38.19 | PirateHead | I still think that hexinput would be better |
| 05:38.27 | PirateHead | for plain english text input |
| 05:38.46 | PirateHead | I don't think you could achieve the same wpm with chorded/multitouch input as you could with hexinput |
| 05:38.58 | PirateHead | I'd rather call it "stroke input" or something. |
| 05:39.51 | PirateHead | stroke input also has fewer hardware constraints - all you need to track is one moving point, not distinguish between many touch points. |
| 05:40.37 | Tv | multitouch is mostly useful for gestures like zoom in |
| 05:40.44 | Tv | touch two fingers and pull them apart |
| 05:40.52 | aloril | umm.. twiddler2 claims 60wpm, hexinput claims 30wpm |
| 05:41.48 | yacc | Tv: you too? |
| 05:42.04 | Tv | yacc: I've been tracking openmoko for a long time.. |
| 05:42.22 | yacc | ;) |
| 05:42.28 | PirateHead | I'll have to look up twiddler2 |
| 05:43.14 | yacc | Tv: office channel? |
| 05:43.19 | PirateHead | okay, found it |
| 05:43.42 | aloril | I'm happy that bundling is optional in Finland (by law) (earlier it was even completely forbidden) |
| 05:43.54 | PirateHead | it looks like a piece of crap to me. You don't have that much space on the neo or the iphone, and you don't have that much precision without hardware buttons. |
| 05:44.41 | aloril | PirateHead: yeah, need something else, but gestures add 'buttons' |
| 05:44.50 | PirateHead | plus, I bet hexinput can get more than 30 wpm |
| 05:45.09 | PirateHead | if I use it for a few months, I bet I'd get good at it. |
| 05:45.19 | aloril | a bit surprised that iPhone didn't see value in GPS ;-) |
| 05:45.33 | PirateHead | iphone does have GPS, I think |
| 05:45.35 | spikebik1 | might just be unannounced |
| 05:45.37 | PirateHead | I saw maps and stuff |
| 05:45.39 | spikebik1 | they don't mention it |
| 05:45.46 | spikebik1 | nah, nothing in the map demo implied gps |
| 05:46.05 | PirateHead | just maps a la Google or Mapquest? |
| 05:46.17 | spikebik1 | yeah he typed sanfrancisco |
| 05:46.26 | spikebik1 | then added starbucks |
| 05:46.43 | PirateHead | That's nice integration, but it's kinda lame. |
| 05:46.54 | PirateHead | Anything that makes it easier to find a number and call it though, I guess. |
| 05:46.58 | spikebik1 | tengo has a neat demo of gui for pda input... including movie |
| 05:47.02 | [g2] | umm google maps runs on Opera on the a780 |
| 05:47.05 | aloril | surely he would have demoed it differently if it had GPS: instead just type starbucks and it would show nearest ones |
| 05:47.27 | spikebik1 | i use maemo mapper for the n770... I love it |
| 05:47.27 | [g2] | starbucks in San Fran |
| 05:47.27 | PirateHead | We know, g2. |
| 05:47.54 | PirateHead | It's not new. It's just integrated. |
| 05:48.11 | [g2] | PirateHead I'm saying it already was integrated in google maps |
| 05:48.15 | PirateHead | Where you can click on starbucks and "phone here". Then again, I'm sure you could get that working on the a780 too. |
| 05:48.29 | aloril | one speculation about iPhone was wrong: its not unlocked in USA |
| 05:48.41 | PirateHead | Are you in USA aloril? |
| 05:48.44 | aloril | (or maybe there will be one available too) |
| 05:48.48 | spikebik1 | well it requires provider twaks |
| 05:48.51 | spikebik1 | tweaks |
| 05:48.57 | aloril | nope, Finland |
| 05:49.11 | PirateHead | hows stuff in finland? I'm thinking about visiting there awhile. |
| 05:49.26 | spikebik1 | g2 me as well ;-) |
| 05:49.32 | [g2] | 10 X the value :) |
| 05:49.38 | PirateHead | anyways, I'm wondering about what networks can support the neo in the US |
| 05:49.43 | spikebik1 | missing bt will hurt (if true) |
| 05:49.52 | PirateHead | I don't think verizon can, I have never heard of them offering sim cards |
| 05:50.05 | spikebik1 | the apple browser looks excellent... smart zoom and the like |
| 05:50.37 | spikebik1 | (video is on the apple site) |
| 05:50.48 | spikebik1 | the auto-rotate is clever as well |
| 05:50.49 | aloril | PirateHead: bundling allowed only for 3G stuff and there also it must be optional (ie you can always by phone and SIM separately) |
| 05:51.09 | aloril | even adverts must include unbundled price |
| 05:51.39 | PirateHead | what does 3G mean? |
| 05:51.53 | [g2] | 3G network |
| 05:52.00 | PirateHead | I know it has something to do with a data plan, but I don't know all the jargon |
| 05:52.11 | [g2] | it's after 2G and 2.5G but before 4G :) |
| 05:53.00 | [g2] | 2G may be GPRS and 2.5G EDGE |
| 05:54.41 | [g2] | ok 2G + GPRS is 2.5G |
| 05:56.23 | aloril | UMTS for example 384 kbit/s, 3.6Mbit/s are some numbers quoted in UMTS wiki page linked from following along other 3G pages http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3G |
| 05:57.08 | [g2] | aloril nod. |
| 05:57.22 | [g2] | EDGE according to the wikipedia is 2.75G |
| 05:59.00 | [g2] | hmmm GGSN not in wikipedia yet |
| 06:01.20 | Tv | hah, 2.75 |
| 06:01.40 | Tv | I wonder if something will be 2.875 |
| 06:01.47 | Tv | silly naming |
| 06:02.37 | Tv | like there would be clear generations; technology evolves along multiple parallel paths that compete |
| 06:02.43 | Tv | generations can only be named afterwards |
| 06:04.45 | [g2] | well 2G, and 2.5G and 3G are pretty clear |
| 06:05.26 | [g2] | 1G was really clear too :) |
| 06:05.29 | Tv | yeah but EDGE and 4G definitely aren't |
| 06:05.48 | Tv | it's like back in the days of POTS modems |
| 06:06.02 | Tv | different vendors make up different tricks to get more speed out of it |
| 06:06.29 | [g2] | those are standards bodies |
| 06:06.50 | [g2] | I think you are talking GSM versus CDMA |
| 06:07.21 | [g2] | not as dead as SCOX |
| 06:07.22 | spikebik1 | indeed |
| 06:07.39 | [g2] | it's all mostly over but the crying |
| 06:07.56 | [g2] | kinda like Transmeta |
| 06:11.15 | spikebik1 | kinda surprised more of the USA carriers aren't switching to gsm faster |
| 06:11.23 | spikebik1 | (except for cingular) |
| 06:12.14 | aloril | Japanese market seems to be 'different' |
| 06:12.14 | [g2] | well historically it's quite interesting |
| 06:12.14 | [g2] | GSM was really a catalyst for europe |
| 06:12.33 | [g2] | as they had a _bunch_ of disparate analog systems |
| 06:13.08 | [g2] | and the US kinda cocked it up with TDMA, CDMA and ignored GSM for the longest time |
| 06:14.40 | aloril | hmm.. if could get multitouch gestures work enough good for text entry, etc.. could even use neo as keyboard instead of normal one ;-) |
| 06:14.47 | Dex | how will A-GPS be priced? Is it a service from the provider or can anyone use it without paying? |
| 06:16.00 | PirateHead | aloril - would you really want to give up a touch-type keyboard? |
| 06:16.20 | spikebik1 | dex dunno, but gps works without agps on the neo |
| 06:16.26 | PirateHead | I think I would be entirely unable to. I couldn't write code with a pared-down keyboard. |
| 06:16.48 | PirateHead | You could send instant messages with a hexinput style or chorded style or whatever keyboard, but I dobut you could provide an intuitive interface for code entry. |
| 06:17.30 | Dex | Thanks spikebik1, been wondering about that for a while :) |
| 06:17.55 | PirateHead | dex- don't sigh relief yet. |
| 06:18.07 | PirateHead | the neo isn't out yet, so no final word on specs or features or anything |
| 06:18.11 | Dex | Oh noze! |
| 06:18.44 | PirateHead | I won't believe that gps works without agps until I get it working on *my* neo. =D |
| 06:18.57 | Dex | Yeah, I know you always get disapointed in the end, but i remain hopefull :) |
| 06:19.14 | PirateHead | put it this way |
| 06:19.22 | PirateHead | if it's hard to get wireless cards working on liux |
| 06:19.29 | PirateHead | think how hard it will be to get gps cards working =D |
| 06:19.40 | spikebik1 | er |
| 06:19.41 | Dex | ha ha. |
| 06:19.55 | Dex | You have a point there :) |
| 06:20.42 | Dex | Is bluetooth and wi-fi stil in the specs? |
| 06:21.05 | Dex | wifi never where |
| 06:21.47 | aloril | PirateHead: if I can get multigestures work better |
| 06:22.15 | spikebik1 | gpsd is working and included afaik |
| 06:22.23 | spikebik1 | it's one of the supplied propietary bits |
| 06:22.33 | spikebik1 | and a major selling point of the phone |
| 06:22.33 | aloril | PirateHead: is vi/xemacs intuitive? (full potential) |
| 06:22.39 | PirateHead | aloril: that's a big if. |
| 06:23.06 | PirateHead | aloril: I get between 80 and 120 wpm on qwerty/dvorak keyboards. |
| 06:23.15 | PirateHead | think "gesturing" can match that? |
| 06:23.31 | aloril | well.. in this case we do have user space binary module and you can snoop all traffic, so reverse engineering should be easier (AGPS) |
| 06:23.37 | PirateHead | for instant messanging, if I can get an easy interface that lets me input a-z and smilies I'm good |
| 06:23.59 | spikebik1 | I don't believe agps is mandatory |
| 06:24.04 | spikebik1 | it's just optional |
| 06:24.08 | PirateHead | for writing in c, you need a whole lot more characters than that |
| 06:24.10 | spikebik1 | if you want to pay for it great... if not fine |
| 06:24.35 | spikebik1 | there are smart c editors that minimize that stuff |
| 06:24.51 | aloril | PirateHead: maybe, but as you said it is big if |
| 06:25.07 | spikebik1 | need a-z, +/-/* and ; |
| 06:25.20 | aloril | and if hardware is not enough sensitive for multiple gestures, then :-( |
| 06:25.22 | spikebik1 | don't need the parans or {} much if it's smart |
| 06:28.01 | aloril | PirateHead: think it this way: keyboard touch resolution sucks: very bad resolution and even multitouch is limited and still you get 80-120 wpm ;-) |
| 06:28.11 | aloril | of course keyboard is bigger than neo screen.. |
| 06:28.38 | PirateHead | and that's the whole pont |
| 06:28.48 | PirateHead | that's why I don't buy teensy tiny laptops |
| 06:28.54 | PirateHead | I need big keys to maintain my optimum WPM |
| 06:29.14 | PirateHead | not huge keys, but not the tiny "Portability Book 2006" ones either |
| 06:29.33 | aloril | hmm.. 3D multi gesture ... |
| 06:29.47 | aloril | 2 high resolution cameras and .. ;-) |
| 06:30.16 | PirateHead | and then suddenly using your cellphone looks like casting spells in old fantasy fic flicks |
| 06:30.23 | aloril | and/or gloves |
| 06:30.26 | aloril | hehe |
| 06:30.46 | aloril | right and even 'optimal' multigesture on neo might look like that |
| 06:31.17 | PirateHead | if I can get hexinput working for neo, that's what I'll probably use |
| 06:31.26 | PirateHead | otherwise, I'll probably revert to an old qwerty-stylus thing |
| 06:31.31 | PirateHead | by the way, does the neo use a stylus? |
| 06:31.37 | PirateHead | I've always assumed that it does. But does it? |
| 06:34.06 | aloril | I remember mention of that in mailing list from fic |
| 06:34.26 | aloril | I hope its enough good to work without it |
| 06:40.44 | aloril | considering linux on 486 with 8MiB (or 12MiB): this phone has huge specs (much faster processor (guess: 203MHz or 266MHz) , 128MiB) ;-) |
| 06:40.56 | aloril | of course apps are now more bloated, but still .. |
| 06:41.28 | *** join/#openmoko rejon (n=rejon@oc.iis.sinica.edu.tw) |
| 06:41.32 | Tv | PirateHead: "GPS cards"? I've seen embedded GPS just be a COM port and speak really simple ASCII protocol. |
| 06:42.10 | PirateHead | It all depends on how the hardware is configured, I guess. |
| 06:42.25 | PirateHead | Having not seen or played with the neo yet, all I can do is blow smoke. |
| 06:48.28 | Dex | Any info on the SDK? |
| 06:49.05 | PirateHead | not that I've heard |
| 06:49.20 | PirateHead | I know information about what platformy thing they're using has been released |
| 06:49.30 | PirateHead | but I forget the link |
| 06:49.41 | Dex | Awwwh! |
| 06:50.05 | Tv | openembedded |
| 06:50.58 | Dex | Will it have some sort of emulator so that you can play around with a virtual neo? |
| 06:51.00 | Dex | That would be neet. |
| 06:51.20 | aloril | gtk+ and sdl available I thnk (at least gtk+) |
| 06:51.47 | aloril | so coding for gtk and 480x640 sie should work? |
| 06:52.41 | aloril | (just to be clear: I don't have the phone) |
| 06:59.11 | Dex | OK. I need to check those out, haven't used any of'em before. |
| 06:59.52 | aloril | s/sie / |
| 07:05.47 | Dex | s/sie / ...... what? |
| 07:09.56 | *** join/#openmoko buz_ (n=buz@80-218-148-33.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 07:14.10 | aloril | oh, Neo1973 should be avaialble first (2007-06 for iPhone) |
| 07:14.22 | aloril | Dex: so coding for gtk and 480x640 should work? |
| 07:15.50 | Dex | alori: Seems like it. I should ad that i'm not an expert though ;) |
| 07:16.55 | Dex | I want wifi so i'll prob. get the 2:nd neo if rumours hold water |
| 07:18.39 | *** join/#openmoko vlo (n=valentin@lsa1pc7.epfl.ch) |
| 07:20.30 | aloril | Dex: I think you can get wifi by using usb power injector and usb wifi, but yeah that is clunky |
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| 07:28.45 | CM | PirateHead: It will use Matchbox. You will be able emulate in Xoo/Xeypher and qemuarm |
| 07:29.04 | CM | PirateHead: And I'm with you on that HexInput thing :) |
| 07:29.45 | PirateHead | Never heard of xoo, xephyr, or qemuarm. |
| 07:29.52 | *** join/#openmoko terrex (n=terrex@84-122-63-17.onocable.ono.com) |
| 07:29.59 | PirateHead | And I do lots of virtualization. |
| 07:30.08 | PirateHead | I've heard of qemu (similar to qemuarm?) and xen (similar to xoo?) |
| 07:32.51 | CM | PirateHead: http://projects.o-hand.com/xoo/ |
| 07:34.12 | CM | qemu to simulate the whole phone I guess, and Xoo for testing gui apps |
| 07:34.56 | CM | I don't know any details, was mickeyl who told me when I asked before |
| 07:35.44 | PirateHead | I've decided not to even start anything until more imformation about the hardware is present. |
| 07:36.08 | PirateHead | I'm not willing to pour work into something that ends up needing to be resized, or ported to a different framework or specs, etc. |
| 07:36.33 | CM | Of course, and the dev kit isn't out until the phone is anyway |
| 07:36.34 | PirateHead | information* |
| 07:37.48 | Tv | PirateHead: uh, the screen specs have been out for a while |
| 07:38.04 | PirateHead | I am going to love having a mini-linux device, though. |
| 07:38.37 | PirateHead | I'm sure openmoko users will be on the leading edge of syncing with linux laptops. |
| 07:39.27 | PirateHead | Tv: I have seen screen specs, however they don't tell the whole story. I hear there's a "universal status bar" that needs to be accounted for, and there may be other UI considerations that are not immediately apparent from the few screenshots and specs we've been given. |
| 07:39.46 | Tv | that's not "screen", that's UI |
| 07:39.53 | Tv | but yeah |
| 07:39.53 | PirateHead | Tv: That's why I decided to buy the phone and use it bare-bones for a week or two before starting to design things for it. |
| 07:41.10 | PirateHead | As soon as you separate the "screen" from the "UI", you've transcended my world of mobile device usage. =D |
| 07:42.18 | Dex | aloril: USB to the resque, but dongels are clumsy, like you said. |
| 07:43.15 | PirateHead | Lack of built-in bluetooth will be annoying, but I haven't heard whether that's the gospel truth or not. |
| 07:44.28 | PirateHead | If there's no bluetooth, I suspect I'll have to carry a USB cable around with me a lot. |
| 07:44.34 | Dex | I heard everything anormal phone has these days, minus the camera and with gps. |
| 07:44.37 | CM | Bluetooth is built in, but there are some kind of hardware issues |
| 07:45.06 | CM | Not sure that it will be enabled by default |
| 07:45.10 | Dex | Its not entirly open as i remember it, but the interface should work nicely. |
| 07:45.29 | Dex | BT that is |
| 07:45.37 | PirateHead | If I can connect to a WLAN using bluetooth, I'll be happy. |
| 07:45.46 | CM | yes, it uses the internal usb-interface |
| 07:48.00 | PirateHead | CM: xoo looks nice |
| 07:48.47 | Dex | I want internal wi-fi. I need it for my plan to conquer the world :( |
| 07:48.48 | Dex | Acording to FIC they have the next model half ready by the time the current one ships, so maybe i dont have to wait for too long. |
| 07:51.08 | benJIman | I would put up with no wifi, but apparently it won't have bluetooth either :( |
| 07:52.29 | Psi_ | Dex, thats good to know |
| 07:54.47 | CM | benJIman: Don't be so sure about that :) |
| 07:55.17 | Tv | how many times does that have to be repeated: hardware v1 will not have wifi, may or may not have bluetooth |
| 07:57.35 | Dex | Do you have the specs somewhere? |
| 07:57.37 | Dex | I'd like to see them. |
| 07:58.48 | CM | There's no updates on the specs since the old press release (topic) |
| 07:59.06 | Dex | ok, thanks. |
| 08:03.03 | Dex | Anyone knows how apt-get works? |
| 08:03.04 | Dex | I'm more of a yum-guy myself. |
| 08:06.19 | so_solid_moo | apt-get works mostly the same as yum |
| 08:06.23 | so_solid_moo | what are you trying to do? |
| 08:08.16 | Dex | Just curious. I was thinking about geting yum instead but if both works without any problems i dont see why i should bother. |
| 08:08.42 | so_solid_moo | for simple operations, the commands are basically identical: X update, X search <app>, X install <app> |
| 08:09.07 | xorAxAx | apt-get search does not exist |
| 08:09.09 | so_solid_moo | you have to apt-cache search rather than apt-get search, |
| 08:14.12 | Dex | ok. good to know. Any words on the bundle? I asume there will be some kind of connectability with a pc. Doing app installs on the device seems a bit awkward. |
| 08:15.47 | buz_ | usb-net for sure |
| 08:16.03 | buz_ | ip over bluetooth perhaps |
| 08:16.15 | buz_ | (if we get bluetooth, we can run ip over it) |
| 08:16.49 | hrw | usbnet, PAN (BT net), gprs |
| 08:23.14 | *** join/#openmoko unique (n=unique@ip43071.stuwe.fh-schmalkalden.de) |
| 08:31.42 | spikebik1 | er up |
| 08:32.07 | spikebik1 | so_solid_moo right, but if you apt-get update and then apt-cache search it's much better |
| 08:32.14 | *** join/#openmoko greentux (n=m@ip-217-18-181-130.static.reverse.dsi.net) |
| 08:32.33 | spikebik1 | especially since you can search and get without waiting on the net all the time |
| 08:32.57 | so_solid_moo | isn't that what I said? |
| 08:33.33 | spikebik1 | oh sorry |
| 08:33.37 | spikebik1 | I meant to correct xor |
| 08:33.45 | so_solid_moo | :o) |
| 08:33.47 | spikebik1 | and agree with you ;-) |
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| 09:13.42 | aloril | hmm.. iPod connector might in theory give iPhone USB host? (anyway, most important feature source code will surely be missing ;-) |
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| 09:18.47 | stefan_schmidt | ah it's official. Bluetooth omg. :) |
| 09:19.04 | stefan_schmidt | And of course the Hacker's Lunch Box. :) |
| 09:19.51 | so_solid_moo | \o/ |
| 09:19.56 | so_solid_moo | bt is very desirable. |
| 09:23.07 | aloril | ouch!: http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/09/the-iphone-is-not-a-smartphone/ |
| 09:23.15 | aloril | or should I say: haha ;-) |
| 09:24.57 | Kaloz | :P |
| 09:25.02 | aloril | even my old Nokia is better than iPhone ;-) (I can develop for it using java) |
| 09:25.20 | Kaloz | now i only wish that the neo's microsd is sdio capable |
| 09:25.34 | aloril | I would not get iPhone even if got it for free |
| 09:25.44 | spikebik1 | stefan_schmidt? |
| 09:25.55 | Kaloz | aloril: i would. imagine job's face when it will be running linux :P |
| 09:26.03 | aloril | Kaloz: good point |
| 09:26.04 | spikebik1 | official? |
| 09:27.17 | Kaloz | spikebik1: yep, check the list |
| 09:27.35 | Kaloz | aloril: and for the bloatware osx crap i'm pretty sure it has decent cpu and ram |
| 09:27.39 | Kaloz | :P |
| 09:27.43 | spikebik1 | cool |
| 09:28.15 | Kaloz | aloril: i would guess it has the same toys as the nokia 800 and the forthcoming nokia n95 |
| 09:28.49 | Kaloz | aloril: so ti omap 2420/2430 or even omap 3430 |
| 09:29.00 | Kaloz | aloril: the first two is arm11, the last on is arm cortex a8 |
| 09:29.34 | Kaloz | aloril: which means 330MHz arm11 fun or 600-800MHz armv7 fun on the last one |
| 09:30.19 | aloril | http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001006.html |
| 09:31.06 | aloril | somebody might want to update topic |
| 09:32.29 | aloril | Kaloz: yeah, iPhone hardware + OpenMoKo would be interesting (but I would like to have GPS too...) |
| 09:33.13 | spikebik1 | bluetooth is a relief |
| 09:33.26 | spikebik1 | I can stop hoping that nokia releases a N770/N800 related with GSM |
| 09:34.14 | Kaloz | yeah.. let's hop the microsd is sdio capale |
| 09:34.27 | Kaloz | i'm sure some vendor can put the atheros 6001 into that form factor |
| 09:34.29 | stefan_schmidt | spikebik1: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001006.html |
| 09:34.32 | Kaloz | and that has free drivers |
| 09:35.12 | stefan_schmidt | Kaloz: microSD is under battery. I'm pretty sure you will have no fun with sdio here. |
| 09:36.04 | spikebik1 | stefan yeah I saw the URL the first time, thus my comment |
| 09:36.20 | spikebik1 | why is SDio important? |
| 09:36.37 | stefan_schmidt | People have hopes for sdio wlan |
| 09:37.07 | stefan_schmidt | But all microSD sdio cards I know are oversized anyway. |
| 09:37.31 | stefan_schmidt | Plus we have to merge a sdio stack into linux kernel and write driver for the cards. |
| 09:37.39 | spikebik1 | a BT <-> wifi adapter could potentially be small/portable |
| 09:37.49 | Kaloz | stefan_schmidt: wrong |
| 09:37.55 | aloril | I wonder what is write speed supported by neo to micro-SD card |
| 09:38.05 | Kaloz | stefan_schmidt: atheros gave a full sdio stack to the linux community |
| 09:38.19 | Kaloz | stefan_schmidt: and they also gave gpl'ed drivers for their ar6k chipset |
| 09:38.28 | spikebik1 | hacker's lunchbox sounds rather interesting |
| 09:39.07 | stefan_schmidt | Kaloz: I know the stack. You take a look at the code? It needs much work before it will get merged into mainline. |
| 09:39.20 | stefan_schmidt | Kaloz: atheros driver without binary blob? |
| 09:39.49 | Kaloz | stefan_schmidt: firts, something open and working can be used and can be fine even if it's not ready for mainline |
| 09:40.17 | Kaloz | stefan_schmidt: second - yes, the sources for the ar6k are fully gpl'ed without binary blobs as I saw |
| 09:40.34 | Kaloz | stefan_schmidt: only the ar5k (pci stuff) has the hal |
| 09:40.51 | stefan_schmidt | Kaloz: Have a link for the gpl driver? |
| 09:41.11 | Kaloz | stefan_schmidt: same directory where the sdio stuf fis.. let me find it |
| 09:41.29 | stefan_schmidt | Kaloz: hmm, same dir on mvista? |
| 09:42.14 | Kaloz | stefan_schmidt: right, http://source.mvista.com/~dsingleton/sdio/2.6.18/ |
| 09:42.25 | stefan_schmidt | http://source.mvista.com/~dsingleton/sdio/2.6.18/common_atheros_sdiostack_ar6000_wlan.patch |
| 09:42.25 | Kaloz | stefan_schmidt: precisely http://source.mvista.com/~dsingleton/sdio/2.6.18/common_atheros_sdiostack_ar6000_wlan.patch |
| 09:43.22 | stefan_schmidt | That gives me some stuff to read today. :) |
| 09:43.39 | Kaloz | :) |
| 09:45.07 | Kaloz | well, given the size of the ar6k i'm even hoping for a neo wifi edition |
| 09:45.08 | Kaloz | :P |
| 09:45.37 | Kaloz | http://atheros.com/pt/images/AR6001X_BGA.gif |
| 09:46.22 | stefan_schmidt | That's SD, not microSD, right? |
| 09:49.12 | Kaloz | sdio, the form factor is sd |
| 09:49.35 | stefan_schmidt | that's what I mean |
| 09:49.50 | Kaloz | given the chip's size it would fit there |
| 09:51.23 | *** join/#openmoko Stephmw (i=c0648207@gateway/web/cgi-irc/irc.jpgclan.com/x-132cb71ff2737693) |
| 09:53.02 | Kaloz | oh, hi Stephmw |
| 09:55.38 | stefan_schmidt | ups, battery is empty. cu later |
| 09:55.46 | Kaloz | cu |
| 09:57.01 | Stephmw | heya |
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| 10:03.53 | aloril | I have been excepting this to happen for some years: "A 3D Printer On Every Desktop?" http://hardware.slashdot.org/hardware/07/01/09/2239206.shtml |
| 10:08.26 | *** join/#openmoko Fletch (n=fantasma@doener.lieferservice.cc) |
| 10:09.12 | Stephmw | no prize for guessing the first object to come out of that will be a woman's bust... |
| 10:09.20 | Ycros | aloril: yeah, there was someone showing one off at last year's LCA |
| 10:10.07 | Ycros | he's back again this year |
| 10:10.28 | Ycros | showing off what it's up to - I think he'll have a live demonstration as well |
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| 11:26.51 | d0tslash | hey, will there be a wifi chip on the openmoko? |
| 11:28.36 | d0tslash | it'd be really great to do VoIP at home and GSM outside. :) |
| 11:29.05 | so_solid_moo | no |
| 11:29.17 | Psi_ | not on the 1st version anyway |
| 11:29.58 | d0tslash | mhm, and the "unpowered" usb means i can't just plug a wifi-dongle in, right? |
| 11:30.28 | so_solid_moo | yup |
| 11:31.10 | d0tslash | thats too bad ... |
| 11:31.51 | mjr | Note that _if_ it will have bluetooth you can do voip at home through that. But that's if. |
| 11:32.01 | so_solid_moo | mjr: it's confirmed, apparently. |
| 11:32.07 | Tv | there are battery-powered usb dongles; the next thing is matching the connectors |
| 11:32.17 | d0tslash | [i wonder what this meshing protocol discussion on the mailing list is about then, ....] |
| 11:32.19 | Tv | most off the shelf usb wifi things have the big connector |
| 11:32.24 | d0tslash | ah, bluetooth would be nice too ^^ |
| 11:32.44 | Psi_ | so_solid_moo, its confirmed that the 1st version will have bt? |
| 11:32.45 | d0tslash | i like the zaurus idea with the CF-slot, there are loads of cheap cards |
| 11:32.53 | d0tslash | like wifi, bluetooth etc |
| 11:33.03 | so_solid_moo | Psi_: that's what Sean said on the list |
| 11:33.03 | Tv | Psi_: yes according to mailing list |
| 11:33.05 | spikebik1 | MMC/rs-mmc are cheap oh... non-storage |
| 11:33.29 | mjr | oo, Bluetooth, yes Bluetooth! |
| 11:33.43 | mjr | but where's the v8? |
| 11:33.46 | d0tslash | i've not seen any mmc-wifi-cards, but cf-wifi cards are about 20$, some for bluetooth |
| 11:34.50 | mjr | d0tslash, anyway, I know I will be doing some tuning to get IP over bluetooth comfortably usable with Moko if somebody doesn't beat me to it. So you may have your home-voip yet. (Of course you'll need that voip functionality part ;] ) |
| 11:35.16 | Kaloz | d0tslash: sdio |
| 11:35.42 | Psi_ | do we know if its bt v2 EDR? |
| 11:35.57 | d0tslash | well, i've used kphone on the zaurus (which was also arm), maybe it's possible to port it. |
| 11:36.31 | CM | Psi_: Sean only said "Bluetooth": http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001006.html |
| 11:36.37 | d0tslash | i liked the idea of having batman or other meshing stuff on the phone, (i'd have ported that as well ;), but it's useless without wifi |
| 11:36.44 | d0tslash | Kaloz: sdio? |
| 11:37.09 | Kaloz | d0tslash: an sd slot with sdio could be used for both storage and communication |
| 11:37.41 | d0tslash | Kaloz: ah okay. i heard there are wifi-cards for sd/mmc slots as well, but never seen any. ^^ |
| 11:38.04 | Kaloz | d0tslash: only for sd, and only if the slot supports sdio |
| 11:38.15 | d0tslash | ah, okay. |
| 11:38.48 | Stephmw | the limitation will be juice - wifi is thirsty |
| 11:38.50 | Psi_ | hehe @ hackers lunchbox |
| 11:39.43 | Psi_ | bt will only be useful to me if its of the 100meter version |
| 11:39.51 | spikebik1 | which version is that? |
| 11:40.01 | mjr | that would be class 2 |
| 11:40.06 | mjr | oh wait, class 1 |
| 11:40.22 | mjr | the 100-meter one, not the one in neo, I dunno what that will be |
| 11:40.30 | Psi_ | ive seen EDR, enhanced data rate mentioned a few times |
| 11:41.37 | CM | Class 1 is 100m, 2 is 10m and 3 is < 10 (rarely used) |
| 11:41.56 | spikebik1 | I've only heard that it can handle stereo headphones |
| 11:42.01 | Psi_ | need to be able to walk around the house will BT reception |
| 11:45.02 | *** join/#openmoko faded515 (n=faded515@cpc3-hatf4-0-0-cust764.lutn.cable.ntl.com) |
| 11:45.36 | hrw|work | Psi_: devels said that it is Bt 2.0 edr |
| 11:47.19 | *** join/#openmoko jtokash (n=jtokash@c-24-5-0-4.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 11:51.55 | Psi_ | for Bt 2.0 edr specs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluetooth |
| 11:52.52 | mjr | doesn't say much necessarily for the range |
| 11:53.00 | mjr | still different classes available |
| 11:53.04 | Psi_ | yeah |
| 11:53.21 | Psi_ | but at least they are using the newer bt standard for the neo |
| 11:53.50 | mjr | I'm not complaining |
| 11:53.59 | mjr | would've been happy with 1.x though |
| 11:54.23 | Psi_ | yes the important thing is that will HAVE bt :) |
| 11:54.51 | stefan_schmidt | The important thing is the Hacker's Lunchbox. ;) |
| 11:54.58 | mjr | yeah, that sounded interesting |
| 11:55.07 | mjr | care to start the guessing? |
| 11:55.09 | mjr | v8? fgpa? |
| 11:55.13 | hrw|work | Psi_: did you tested BT 2.0edr<>2.0edr test? |
| 11:55.58 | mjr | actually, perchance a preinstalled largish microSD would be expected of the HL. Maybe some stuff to ease the USB usage (battery hub?) |
| 11:56.18 | Psi_ | stefan_schmidt, the hackers lunchbox just sounds like a kit with lots of hacking tools |
| 11:56.31 | Psi_ | i doubt the phone in that kit is any different |
| 11:56.40 | Psi_ | but im just guessing |
| 11:57.16 | mjr | yeah, I expect the base phone to be the same certainly |
| 11:57.25 | mjr | just with added niceties such as maybe the ones I mentioned |
| 11:57.51 | stefan_schmidt | of course phone is the same |
| 11:58.16 | Kaloz | Psi_: probably daughterboard thingie with serial and jtag |
| 11:58.31 | Psi_ | thats possible |
| 11:59.04 | stefan_schmidt | doughterboard is even one of my bets |
| 11:59.07 | so_solid_moo | the lunchbox is supposedly a breadboard type system to allow people access to the hardware |
| 11:59.29 | Kaloz | access the hardware = serial console and jtag ;) |
| 11:59.34 | Kaloz | who needs anything else? |
| 11:59.57 | stefan_schmidt | spi, gpio testpads, ... |
| 12:00.22 | Kaloz | well, i'm pretty sure all the gpio stuff is used by leds, buttons, etc |
| 12:14.49 | spikebik1 | cool |
| 12:15.19 | spikebik1 | double the pixels and open seems great compared to the iphone |
| 12:15.23 | spikebik1 | oh and half price ;-) |
| 12:17.04 | hrw|work | and very small flash :( |
| 12:21.35 | *** join/#openmoko ab (n=ab@mail.samba.org) |
| 12:22.50 | *** topic/#openmoko by mickeyl -> OpenMoko Developer Lounge | http://www.openmoko.com | http://lists.openmoko.org | Neo1973 ETA for early access: February 2007 | Wifi: No, BT: Yes | Direct-Sale World Wide | No Preorders yet |
| 12:25.11 | mickeyl | morning guys |
| 12:26.12 | hrw|work | mickeyl: 'early access' means 'developers program'? |
| 12:26.16 | Kaloz | morning mickeyl |
| 12:26.26 | Kaloz | hrw|work: probably |
| 12:26.30 | mickeyl | hrw|work: yeah. you know, guys like you and me |
| 12:27.08 | hrw|work | ko |
| 12:28.22 | mickeyl | so the internal NAND size sucks. I will pester FIC to bundle a microSD and then we should look into the state of unionfs |
| 12:29.05 | mickeyl | some guys are using unionfs on the 770 without any problems |
| 12:29.15 | Kaloz | unionfs? |
| 12:29.15 | mickeyl | two years ago it sucked though, OOPSes all over |
| 12:29.36 | mickeyl | unionfs is an overlay filesystem. in contrast to a normal filesystem, it blends two filesystems |
| 12:29.39 | Kaloz | mickeyl: please, I will have a lot of job to free openmoko from the crappy glibc alone |
| 12:29.43 | Kaloz | :p |
| 12:29.44 | Kaloz | mickeyl: use mini_fo |
| 12:29.58 | xorAxAx | mickeyl: there is the next generation unionfs for fuse :) |
| 12:30.06 | mickeyl | i hope not |
| 12:30.09 | mickeyl | i want it in the kernel |
| 12:30.15 | mickeyl | it's slow enough in kernel |
| 12:30.16 | xorAxAx | why? |
| 12:30.20 | mickeyl | speed reasons |
| 12:30.26 | xorAxAx | its completly broken on itself |
| 12:30.29 | Kaloz | mickeyl: mini_fo is in kernel ;) |
| 12:30.35 | xorAxAx | and any rewrite is better :) |
| 12:30.44 | mickeyl | unionfs broken? |
| 12:30.50 | mickeyl | that's not what i heard, but ok |
| 12:30.53 | xorAxAx | yes, by design at several points |
| 12:31.19 | xorAxAx | he said that only alternative is the user-space rewrite currently |
| 12:32.02 | Kaloz | xorAxAx: bs :p |
| 12:33.19 | Kaloz | xorAxAx: knoppix is using aufs currently |
| 12:33.19 | Kaloz | mickeyl: http://www.denx.de/wiki/Know.MiniFOHome |
| 12:33.19 | mickeyl | hmm, 10/2005 ? |
| 12:33.39 | Kaloz | mickeyl: they've working in svn since then |
| 12:33.47 | Kaloz | mickeyl: no formal releases |
| 12:33.56 | mickeyl | hmm, worth a try |
| 12:36.03 | Kaloz | mickeyl: https://dev.openwrt.org/browser/trunk/target/linux/generic-2.6/patches/209-mini_fo.patch - we are using this version. not usre if it still has some additional fixes missing from the main mini_fo repo or not |
| 12:37.40 | mickeyl | thanks |
| 12:38.34 | Kaloz | oh, and that's for 2.6.19.1, no idea on which kernel will be used on the arly access stuff |
| 12:39.02 | hrw|work | I vote for 2.6.17 |
| 12:39.10 | hrw|work | mickeyl: ? |
| 12:39.26 | mickeyl | 2.6.17.14 |
| 12:39.31 | Kaloz | why? :) |
| 12:39.58 | mickeyl | because 2.6.18 introduces new irq handling |
| 12:40.05 | mickeyl | and we don't like to code against a moving target |
| 12:40.14 | mickeyl | so at some point of time you just need to chose one |
| 12:40.14 | Kaloz | btw, same url just with ?rev=5556 in the end for .17 |
| 12:40.15 | Kaloz | :) |
| 12:40.22 | mickeyl | thanks, cool |
| 12:40.55 | Kaloz | mickeyl: fine, i'll be happy to get 2.6.20 or 21 (whatever will be out) working then |
| 12:41.46 | mickeyl | sure. we can do all kind of things, once it's out... |
| 12:41.48 | Vegar | there's new IRQ handling in 2.6.18? |
| 12:42.00 | Vegar | I've been waiting for that since .7 |
| 12:43.33 | xorAxAx | Kaloz: ugh, a twiki |
| 12:46.34 | *** join/#openmoko Laibsch (n=Laibsch@dialin108123.justdsl.de) |
| 12:53.35 | Kaloz | mickeyl: oh, was going to ask.. do you know which bootloader will be used on the neo? |
| 12:53.48 | mickeyl | u-boot |
| 12:53.54 | Kaloz | fine :) |
| 12:55.36 | hrw|work | mickeyl: you chosen u-boot or laforge? |
| 12:55.56 | mickeyl | that was LaF0rge's call |
| 12:56.05 | mickeyl | i probably would've chosen LAB |
| 12:56.06 | Kaloz | i would guess Harald |
| 12:56.17 | hrw|work | mickeyl: LAB is much bigger |
| 12:56.20 | Kaloz | heh, i should play in a casino |
| 12:56.21 | Kaloz | :p |
| 12:56.22 | mickeyl | i know, but i can do more |
| 12:57.22 | buz_ | is the neo screen multitouch too? |
| 12:57.32 | mickeyl | I'm afraid not |
| 12:57.45 | Stephmw | that's patented anyway |
| 12:58.00 | ab | btw, are there any other devices with multitouch? |
| 12:58.01 | Stephmw | you can bet Apple won't want that tech licensed any time soon |
| 12:58.37 | buz_ | is the idea or the implementation patented? |
| 12:58.38 | *** join/#openmoko thresh_ (n=popa3d@213.219.222.36) |
| 12:58.48 | buz_ | first should be thrown out, second might be worked around |
| 12:58.55 | ab | I think I saw only MIT's multitouch in Feb'06 and Microsoft's demo of similar technology in December'06 |
| 12:59.40 | Stephmw | buz_: it's supposed to be the actual implementation... *but* patents are worded as vaguely as possible and end up patenting the idea |
| 13:00.27 | buz_ | yeah i know |
| 13:00.34 | buz_ | the USPTO should be abolished |
| 13:01.19 | Stephmw | and the EUPTO right afterwards |
| 13:01.53 | mjr | EPO, actually, but yes, they should |
| 13:01.54 | xkr47 | woot, bluetooth included after all ? |
| 13:02.17 | ab | mickeyl: is there public repository of OpenMoko? I remember http://svnweb.gta01.hmw-consulting.de/ was public in November but it is unconditionally requiring username/password now |
| 13:02.39 | mickeyl | the repository will go public when the device ships |
| 13:02.55 | mickeyl | as will the wiki |
| 13:02.58 | mickeyl | and the bugtracker |
| 13:02.58 | mickeyl | etc. |
| 13:03.22 | xkr47 | good luck with making your internal deadlines! :) |
| 13:03.28 | mickeyl | hehe |
| 13:03.29 | mickeyl | thanks |
| 13:03.56 | ab | mickeyl: thanks :-) |
| 13:05.37 | Kaloz | hehe :) |
| 13:05.42 | mickeyl | heh |
| 13:06.04 | mickeyl | i have a slight idea of what the hacker lunchbox will consist of, but i heard the term for the first time today just as you all |
| 13:06.06 | Kaloz | well, if we get the deice by that time, we can use bluetooth as serial console as well |
| 13:06.19 | Kaloz | so we cna save the weight of the lunchboxes :P |
| 13:07.23 | hrw|work | Kaloz: you cant use BT serial in kernel... first userspace must start ;( |
| 13:07.39 | Kaloz | hrw|work: you can;t use it as early serial ;) |
| 13:08.14 | stefan_schmidt | mickeyl: I hope the box contain such a big red button. :) |
| 13:08.16 | Kaloz | but given we have the device before fosdem, most of the kernel related quirks should be fixed that time :) |
| 13:08.33 | hrw|work | if we get device before fosdem |
| 13:08.40 | hrw|work | fosdem is Feb 2007 too |
| 13:08.52 | mickeyl | stefan_schmidt: that would be my guess, too :) no idea how expensive that board is though |
| 13:08.58 | Kaloz | right, there's a big "if" |
| 13:08.59 | Kaloz | :) |
| 13:09.10 | *** join/#openmoko esden (n=esden@repl.esden.net) |
| 13:09.20 | stefan_schmidt | yay, 100 user |
| 13:09.37 | mickeyl | heh, nice |
| 13:09.39 | Kaloz | stefan_schmidt: and what do you want on that button? "reset" "scream" "nuke" or "send a funny packet to kill the gsm network"? :) |
| 13:09.59 | stefan_schmidt | mickeyl: :) Perhaps just smaller. |
| 13:10.24 | stefan_schmidt | Kaloz: poweroff everything :) |
| 13:11.06 | stefan_schmidt | Welcome esden, you're the 100's user. :) What do you like to know? |
| 13:11.40 | stefan_schmidt | heh |
| 13:13.04 | esden | stefan_schmidt: ... that is nice ... did I won a free neo? with a nice iPhone multitouch interface? ;) |
| 13:13.45 | stefan_schmidt | esden: NO, heh. Just allowed to ask a question which I try to answer. :) |
| 13:14.38 | esden | stefan_schmidt: humm ... I am afraid of asking questions that are already answered ... so I have to think a bit |
| 13:14.41 | *** join/#openmoko tr2x (n=alvar@212-41-114-59.adsl.solnet.ch) |
| 13:15.09 | stefan_schmidt | esden: Take your time. :) |
| 13:15.31 | buz_ | fosdem is in bruxels right |
| 13:15.31 | stefan_schmidt | right |
| 13:18.42 | esden | stefan_schmidt: The question that is really interesting me is which known libraries are the ones openmoko will contain. GTK is one that I heard of till now. uclibc? nulib? or even the stock glibc? what else? |
| 13:19.14 | Kaloz | esden: afaik it will go with glibc by default, but i'm volunteering to change that asap to uclibc |
| 13:19.45 | esden | humm ... what about dietlibc? |
| 13:19.51 | stefan_schmidt | esden: glibc is also my last understanding. |
| 13:20.08 | Kaloz | nah, for dietlibc you have to do a lot and you win less then with uclibc |
| 13:20.29 | esden | humm interesting ... fefe would not be happy ;) |
| 13:20.34 | stefan_schmidt | esden: All other libraries can be installed over the packaging system afterwards. |
| 13:21.33 | esden | stefan_schmidt: but the question is which libs are ported now? what you use to develop the current software. I know that possibly everything will be there later on if someone ports it. |
| 13:21.46 | xkr47 | will there be a "LFS" kind of thing? |
| 13:22.17 | hrw|work | NOT ported |
| 13:22.25 | stefan_schmidt | esden: As is based on openembedded all the stuff for 'porting' should be trivial for most stuff. |
| 13:22.27 | Kaloz | xkr47: dunno what will come by default, but later the will be |
| 13:22.32 | hrw|work | built, compiled but NOT ported |
| 13:22.58 | hrw|work | if you build helloworld.c for your new pc then did you built or port it? |
| 13:23.04 | hrw|work | esden: ? |
| 13:23.15 | mickeyl | helloworld.py |
| 13:23.26 | esden | erm ... |
| 13:23.28 | mickeyl | helloworld.d |
| 13:23.44 | Kaloz | hrw|work: depens. helloworld.c is simple, but probably you have to port it if it's a more complex software and you are going with uclibc/dietlibc |
| 13:23.44 | xkr47 | esden, what he's trying to say he expects everything to work just by compiling.. no porting necessary :) |
| 13:23.50 | xkr47 | or so I think :-) |
| 13:24.04 | esden | erm ... that is a false assumption in my understanding |
| 13:24.17 | mickeyl | the OE folks have a problem with the recent overuse of the term "port" |
| 13:24.18 | xkr47 | well I might be thinking differently |
| 13:24.18 | Kaloz | hrw|work: also, it cna be porting if your software was x86 or whatever arch only |
| 13:24.30 | xkr47 | mickeyl, :) |
| 13:24.31 | mickeyl | a port really is if you need to touch code to make it work on a different system |
| 13:24.48 | Kaloz | mickeyl: i rather keep my opinion on OE :P |
| 13:24.50 | hrw|work | Kaloz: I know that changing to get built for other arch is porting |
| 13:24.50 | esden | mickeyl: that is also my understanding |
| 13:25.03 | hrw|work | but building XYZ for new arch is building NOT porting |
| 13:25.22 | Kaloz | hrw|work: depends if you have to change the code :) this is all i wanted to say |
| 13:25.30 | hrw|work | rewriting 2.4 kernel driver to 2.6 kernel is porting |
| 13:25.43 | mickeyl | most stuff works out of the box, thankfully |
| 13:25.55 | mickeyl | i.e. almost everything console |
| 13:26.12 | mickeyl | my favourite news reader |
| 13:26.31 | stefan_schmidt | hmm, mutt... |
| 13:26.37 | esden | ok ... then I reformulate my question ... which libraries are _NOW_ compiled and in binary form known to work on neo developer hardware |
| 13:27.35 | mickeyl | everything necessary to get Gtk+ apps on X running |
| 13:27.37 | hrw|work | esden: http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/repo/ - everything from here will be on Neo |
| 13:27.52 | hrw|work | esden: and more ;d |
| 13:28.12 | mickeyl | although probably only a handful is really usable |
| 13:28.17 | mickeyl | on 480x640 @ 280dpi |
| 13:28.55 | esden | mickeyl: ok nice! but X is also bit vague. Which X implementation? |
| 13:29.20 | esden | hrw|work: thanks /me looking into the repo |
| 13:30.13 | Kaloz | mickeyl: oh, X? i was hoping for directfb |
| 13:30.41 | stefan_schmidt | kdrive? |
| 13:30.54 | mjr | X is good |
| 13:31.03 | mjr | less hassle |
| 13:31.03 | mickeyl | kdrive, yes |
| 13:31.42 | mickeyl | that way we embrace all GUI toolkits people want to come up with |
| 13:31.53 | mickeyl | and don't limit ourselves to Gtk+ and (an old version of) Qt |
| 13:32.00 | mickeyl | [directfb-ports] |
| 13:32.52 | esden | mickeyl: nice ... you get some kind of lisp/scheme from me with a gui ;) |
| 13:33.04 | esden | and a gui lib ;) |
| 13:33.06 | hrw|work | food break |
| 13:33.10 | mickeyl | heh, cool, do that |
| 13:33.24 | mickeyl | ~bon appetit |
| 13:33.38 | apt | methinks bon appetit is smacznego. Guten Appetit. Eet Smakelijk. God Appetitt. Buon Appetito. Buen apetito Bom Apetite. buen apetito Smaklig måltid!. Hyvää ruokahalua. Bo Proveito |
| 13:33.38 | esden | mickeyl: have fun ... /me too |
| 13:33.49 | xkr47 | hrw|work, maybe you shouldn't have posted that url.. :) |
| 13:33.54 | xkr47 | now everybody will spam it.. |
| 13:34.02 | *** join/#openmoko Laibsc2 (n=Laibsch@dialin107200.justdsl.de) |
| 13:38.57 | *** join/#openmoko unique (n=unique@ip43071.stuwe.fh-schmalkalden.de) |
| 13:43.32 | *** join/#openmoko Hadaka (i=naked@naked.iki.fi) |
| 13:51.50 | koen | hackers lunchbox: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8177 |
| 14:04.40 | *** join/#openmoko Ryushin (i=proxy@windwalker.openinnovations.com) |
| 14:09.00 | *** join/#openmoko Vegar (i=vegar@51-142-151-213.mtulink.net) |
| 14:13.02 | xkr47 | hehe |
| 14:17.28 | *** join/#openmoko [g2] (n=g2@nslu2-linux/g2) |
| 14:22.02 | buz_ | suppose we got a skype binary for arm and x11, is the s3c2410 fast enough? |
| 14:22.14 | *** join/#openmoko vargr (n=vargr@dsl092-109-027.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 14:24.16 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=rob_w@p549B8877.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 14:34.48 | *** join/#openmoko jthomas (n=jthomas@hotel.sierrabravo.net) |
| 14:35.57 | yacc | buz_: Probably nobody beside skype.com can tell you that. I know that they offer only text chat for PDA/smartphones. Problems to consider: GPRS is clearly not enough bandwidth. Even UMTS would have the latency problem. |
| 14:36.26 | buz_ | well i was looking towards Bluetooth PAN |
| 14:36.46 | yacc | (I do know about GPRS from first experiences, because I had to use GPRS as a "DSL replacement" for two weeks two years ago. It sucks for such.) |
| 14:36.49 | buz_ | i was under the intention that there was a full blown voip skype for winmobile |
| 14:37.09 | buz_ | s/intention/impression/ |
| 14:37.14 | yacc | buz_: Well, I didn't use skype in a year or so, but back then it was a chat-only ;) |
| 14:37.53 | mjr | methinks getting an open phone to run skype on is a bit... strange ;] |
| 14:38.31 | buz_ | well if i could convince everybody to use openwengo or some other sip softphone... |
| 14:38.45 | yacc | buz_: yeah, it seems they have a beta of a version that can do voip on winmobile. |
| 14:40.00 | yacc | buz_: http://www.skype.com/download/skype/mobile/download_beta.html <- you can check if comparable phones are supported. Admittingly I wouldn't care to much about skype ;) |
| 14:40.47 | Ycros | woot, voip |
| 14:42.00 | xkr47 | will the screen act as a read-only console at bootup? |
| 14:43.41 | Tv | xkr47: considering the phone doesn't have serial or ethernet, I sure hope so |
| 14:44.00 | Tv | xkr47: otherwise kernel upgrades will be horrible |
| 14:44.39 | xkr47 | could one connect a externally powered keyboard as console keyboard ? |
| 14:44.47 | xkr47 | through usb |
| 14:45.12 | mjr | almost said "yes", but yeah, I don't rightly know about the "console" bit |
| 14:45.16 | *** join/#openmoko darmou (n=darmou@ppp194-244.lns3.mel4.internode.on.net) |
| 14:45.21 | darmou | hi |
| 14:45.34 | darmou | /whois xfxf |
| 14:45.39 | xkr47 | \o/ |
| 14:46.12 | darmou | I'm using gpe-irc has a few peculiarities |
| 14:46.37 | xkr47 | := |
| 14:46.39 | xkr47 | :) |
| 14:47.20 | darmou | xkr47 seen the new iphone? |
| 14:48.33 | vargr | I just read the the iPhone will not allow you to install your own software - it'll only run what apple puts on it |
| 14:49.02 | darmou | ouch surley they will open up to developers eventually? |
| 14:49.30 | vargr | I really really hope that's not true, |
| 14:49.45 | vargr | but that gives a huge advantage to the neo! |
| 14:49.51 | darmou | I hope there will be a version of the Neo with wifi that's the only thing I'm really missing |
| 14:50.14 | darmou | oh and 3g but that can wait;) |
| 14:51.02 | mjr | actually, now that we have bluetooth, I'm almost more wanting 3g than wifi |
| 14:51.08 | darmou | what web browser does openmoko use, I tried minmo recently and appart from bookmark problems it runs really great on my z |
| 14:51.15 | darmou | z=zaurus collie |
| 14:51.41 | mjr | (but anyway, bluetooth, yay, just sell me the thing already ;) |
| 14:52.11 | darmou | well with usb and a powered hub may be able to get wi fi via an usb adapter |
| 14:52.34 | darmou | bit of a clunky solution though |
| 14:53.13 | *** join/#openmoko jtokash2 (n=jtokash@c-24-5-0-4.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 14:53.22 | darmou | hi jtokash2 |
| 14:53.32 | darmou | brb |
| 14:54.02 | *** join/#openmoko flickerfly (n=jritchie@rebekah.bible.edu) |
| 14:57.31 | buz_ | oh yeah 2160p hdtv |
| 14:57.34 | buz_ | gimme gimme gimme |
| 14:58.11 | *** join/#openmoko Ryushin (n=Ryushin@windwalker.openinnovations.com) |
| 14:58.49 | buz_ | btw, the neo is doomed without full hd display |
| 15:01.22 | Tv | now that would be an impressive ppi |
| 15:01.59 | benJIman | mjr: bluetooth confirmed now? |
| 15:02.09 | benJIman | ah yes :) |
| 15:03.08 | mjr | yesyesyes |
| 15:03.46 | *** join/#openmoko darmou (n=darmou@ppp194-244.lns3.mel4.internode.on.net) |
| 15:04.00 | CM | http://www.pcmag.com/print_article2/0,1217,a=198182,00.asp |
| 15:04.12 | CM | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:04.21 | CM | Sean said, that is.. :) |
| 15:06.40 | *** join/#openmoko darmou (n=darmou@ppp194-244.lns3.mel4.internode.on.net) |
| 15:07.35 | flickerfly | Anyone have thoughts on how the iPhone announcement will affect the openmoko? |
| 15:08.05 | [g2] | "twice the pixels, 1/2 the cost, 10 X the value" :) |
| 15:08.23 | [g2] | and it's open |
| 15:08.50 | [g2] | "openmoko pairs Apple down" |
| 15:08.52 | darmou | well I think that the keyboard interface sux for iphone I |
| 15:09.26 | darmou | the fact it is open is big plus |
| 15:09.40 | CM | flickerfly: I think this was a good summary: http://gondwanaland.com/mlog/2007/01/09/icandy/ |
| 15:09.48 | darmou | apple not even releasing sdk |
| 15:11.24 | [g2] | "running on anything that moves", I like that part |
| 15:11.34 | vargr | do we have authoritative confirmation that that's true - that apple won't allow 3rd party developers? |
| 15:12.27 | cbpage | from sean: device delayed till feb, but bluetooth is in |
| 15:12.37 | cbpage | ^ via mailing list |
| 15:13.57 | darmou | no wifi though:( |
| 15:14.47 | cbpage | wifi was ruled out far earlier... no suitable low power chips (without tainting the kernel) |
| 15:23.46 | *** join/#openmoko _underline (n=swen@gprs01.swisscom-mobile.ch) |
| 15:28.40 | darmou | does anyone know what web browser openmoko will use? |
| 15:33.44 | darmou | oh well will find out soon enough guess it won t be safari;) |
| 15:42.32 | *** join/#openmoko shiv (i=shivan@194.190.200.135) |
| 15:42.36 | shiv | yup |
| 15:43.44 | darmou | night all |
| 15:46.08 | jthomas | anyone know the window manager the FIC Neo1973 uses? can it run E16 or E17? |
| 15:46.24 | koen | matchbox, anything you want |
| 15:46.32 | jjazz | jthomas: I think the whole point is that you can put whatever wm you want on it |
| 15:48.29 | jthomas | i get that, but unless its in the repositories, i don't know much about porting software to a new playform. much?? rather, i know nothing. |
| 15:52.19 | jjazz | jthomas: This won't really require porting so much as recompiling. |
| 15:52.35 | jjazz | jthomas: My guess is the repos will fill with the various wms fairly quickly. |
| 15:52.57 | thresh_ | i want kde there |
| 15:53.41 | jthomas | yeah i want kde too i just think E will be faster and pretty sweet on a phone |
| 15:53.53 | jthomas | jjazz you're prob right about filling up |
| 15:55.28 | jjazz | jthomas: As soon as they release a cross-compiler and SDK, things will start to move |
| 15:55.28 | *** join/#openmoko PirateHead (n=piratehe@AC94B68C.ipt.aol.com) |
| 15:58.15 | jthomas | anyone know about screen orientation? can it go wide? |
| 15:58.36 | jthomas | either via software or automagically? |
| 16:07.47 | PirateHead | jthomas: I doubt it does it automagically, that would require specific hardware |
| 16:07.58 | Tv | xrandr.. |
| 16:07.59 | PirateHead | jthomas: doing so with software aught to be feasable. |
| 16:08.32 | jthomas | for videos, etc? that would be grand! |
| 16:08.39 | koen | *sigh* |
| 16:08.42 | koen | "porting" |
| 16:09.11 | PirateHead | doing widescreen for videos ought to be pretty trivial, actually. |
| 16:09.25 | koen | jjazz: the cross-compiler is already out there: http://openembedded.org |
| 16:09.50 | jjazz | koen: Yes, you're right. |
| 16:09.56 | jjazz | I was not thinking |
| 16:10.17 | mjr | PirateHead, yeah, probably easiest to have the video player to do 90 degree rotation |
| 16:10.24 | koen | so you can get started *right now* with making software available for the neo |
| 16:10.41 | mjr | but the X server _could_ support rotation too via xrandr. Don't know if it does. |
| 16:11.03 | koen | mjr: it does |
| 16:11.18 | hrw|work | koen: I heard that xora ported mplayer to Neo |
| 16:11.24 | PirateHead | The point is that it could, and with X being used on a device like this, I wouldn't be surprised to see it working pretty quickly. |
| 16:11.55 | koen | hrw|work: cool |
| 16:11.58 | thresh_ | who needs mplayer when you have good players |
| 16:12.01 | mjr | koen, fun fun |
| 16:12.16 | koen | hrw|work: I heard mickeyl ported gtk to the neo |
| 16:12.41 | koen | the mediaplayer in v1 will be based on mplayer |
| 16:12.43 | hrw|work | koen: can't be! awesome! |
| 16:13.06 | hrw|work | mickeyl: you hacker! |
| 16:13.19 | *** join/#openmoko Ryushin (i=proxy@windwalker.openinnovations.com) |
| 16:13.22 | mjr | mplayer isn't very... impressive engineering-wise, but it _does_ play a lot of stuff |
| 16:13.27 | koen | hrw|work: maybe I should port my background images to the neo |
| 16:14.03 | koen | maybe I'll even port them from png to jpg |
| 16:14.04 | hrw|work | mjr: I would like to see mplayer split into core+plugins |
| 16:14.12 | hrw|work | jpg is ivil |
| 16:14.43 | mjr | hrw, well, a more modular architecture _would_ be one way of making mplayer saner. |
| 16:15.25 | hrw|work | mjr: s/more// |
| 16:15.31 | hrw|work | mplayer is not modular |
| 16:15.37 | hrw|work | its monolitic |
| 16:15.40 | mjr | hrw|work, true :) |
| 16:15.41 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (i=foobar@dslb-084-057-194-189.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 16:15.49 | mjr | so pretty much anything is _more_ modular, yes? ;) |
| 16:15.59 | thresh_ | hrw|work: you'll get vlc then |
| 16:16.01 | koen | I heard rumours that the media player will use gstreamer in later versions |
| 16:16.06 | thresh_ | if you split it to core+plugins |
| 16:16.41 | thresh_ | and gstreamer is something i prefer avoiding:/ |
| 16:16.51 | thresh_ | anyway, it'll be nice to have many apps portd. |
| 16:17.15 | koen | "ported" |
| 16:17.31 | thresh_ | "compiled". |
| 16:17.34 | thresh_ | "prepackaged". |
| 16:17.48 | morricone | aahh it got delayed |
| 16:18.23 | koen | after that I'll port my TV to on |
| 16:18.42 | koen | and use the remote to port the channel |
| 16:18.57 | Tv | port is the new smurf |
| 16:19.34 | Tv | and koen is pretty ported about that |
| 16:21.46 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=rob_w@p549B8877.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 16:22.51 | flickerfly | thresh_: why do you want to avoid gstreamer |
| 16:23.15 | *** join/#openmoko xerom (n=jack@bl4-144-241.dsl.telepac.pt) |
| 16:23.40 | thresh_ | that would be a flamear |
| 16:23.41 | thresh_ | war |
| 16:24.19 | thresh_ | primarily because of gnome foundation. because of gnome libraries. |
| 16:24.26 | flickerfly | :-) okay |
| 16:24.48 | flickerfly | I can take your meaning, no need to start a war :-) |
| 16:25.02 | thresh_ | :) |
| 16:26.43 | yacc | thresh_: I'd say they might be to big for an embedded device. |
| 16:27.24 | koen | heh |
| 16:27.38 | thresh_ | yacc: "they" ? |
| 16:28.02 | koen | yacc: does RidgeRun inc ring a bell? |
| 16:28.48 | koen | thresh_: I don't see any gnome libraries here: http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/repo/?action=details&pnm=gstreamer |
| 16:30.23 | koen | yacc: gstreamer was designed to run on an low power arm cpu and peruse the dsp attached to it |
| 16:30.33 | koen | yacc: it's as 'embedded' as it gets |
| 16:31.36 | *** join/#openmoko Rac0r (n=Rac0r@p54AA5A2E.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 16:33.51 | *** join/#openmoko tr2x (n=alvar@80-218-185-55.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
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| 16:49.41 | yacc | koen: Ok, I associated it with a desktop ;) |
| 16:50.05 | *** join/#openmoko cjb2 (n=cjb@wireless-231.media.mit.edu) |
| 16:50.26 | koen | yacc: nokia is using it on their internet tablets |
| 16:51.09 | yacc | ;) |
| 16:51.56 | hrw|work | cu |
| 16:52.10 | *** join/#openmoko thedaniel (n=daniel@adsl-75-16-76-102.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 16:52.45 | koen | yacc: s/month/3 weeks/ ;) |
| 16:53.51 | PirateHead | Ooh, I just saw the ETA change! |
| 16:54.04 | *** part/#openmoko vargr (n=vargr@dsl092-109-027.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 16:54.06 | *** join/#openmoko vargr (n=vargr@dsl092-109-027.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 16:54.12 | PirateHead | Disappointing, but at least more honest, eh? |
| 16:54.53 | xorAxAx | haha, as i said :) |
| 16:55.00 | jthomas | yeah god to know... is there a specific date now? |
| 16:55.06 | jthomas | \good to know |
| 16:55.28 | PirateHead | Nope, now it just says Feb. |
| 16:55.32 | PirateHead | (for early access) |
| 16:55.44 | PirateHead | Which probably means later for the rest of us. |
| 16:55.50 | jthomas | who gets early access? anyone with cash? |
| 16:56.03 | jthomas | the web page still says Jan 2007 |
| 16:56.47 | koen | that's because of corporate timezones |
| 16:57.08 | koen | 'feb' for us is 'jan' for them ;) |
| 16:58.13 | PirateHead | I think that developers will get early access. |
| 16:59.05 | PirateHead | If the Opera web browser shoots them an email saying they want to get started porting Opera to the Neo, they would get early access. |
| 16:59.05 | PirateHead | But that's pretty wishful thinking. =D |
| 16:59.13 | PirateHead | We'll probably be stuck with a pared-down Dillo. |
| 16:59.42 | koen | PirateHead: only if opera opensources their browser I guess |
| 17:00.12 | PirateHead | koen: just because the phone is open source doesn't mean all the apps for it have to be. |
| 17:00.29 | PirateHead | I could develop a proprietary app and distribute it for the OpenMoko platform if I wanted to. |
| 17:00.30 | koen | PirateHead: I have a different opinion :) |
| 17:00.57 | PirateHead | Its closed-source-ness might be a barrier to acceptance by users, but there's nothing technilogically saying that I couldn't. |
| 17:01.53 | PirateHead | I probably misspelled something there. |
| 17:01.59 | PirateHead | o wellz |
| 17:02.08 | cjb | PirateHead: sure, of course, provided you didn't use anything GPL'd. |
| 17:02.16 | cjb | freedom includes the freedom to write closed-source stuff :) |
| 17:02.54 | PirateHead | no, I could still use GPL'd stuff |
| 17:03.01 | *** join/#openmoko cjb` (n=cjb@wireless-231.media.mit.edu) |
| 17:03.05 | PirateHead | if I didn't modify the GPL'd source |
| 17:03.12 | PirateHead | and I distributed and/or provided access to the source stuff that I used |
| 17:03.20 | PirateHead | that would satisfy the GPL, and my app could still be proprietary |
| 17:03.33 | cbpage | you can't include gpl code directly into your app in that case |
| 17:03.34 | *** part/#openmoko cjb` (n=cjb@wireless-231.media.mit.edu) |
| 17:03.42 | cbpage | you can link to lgpl code, like the c libs though |
| 17:03.43 | PirateHead | I could even modify the GPL'd parts, providing I distributed the modifications |
| 17:03.58 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@9.80-202-160.nextgentel.com) |
| 17:04.10 | so_solid_moo | PirateHead: you're actually describing the LGPL pretty well, but not the GPL :) |
| 17:04.33 | PirateHead | Though realistically, I don't see why I would use GPL'd stuff. If I wanted to go all proprietary on your asses, I would use BSD licensed stuff. =D |
| 17:04.43 | xorAxAx | so_solid_moo: no |
| 17:04.46 | PirateHead | so_solid_moo: I realize my mistake. I was thinking LGPL. =D |
| 17:05.01 | xorAxAx | so_solid_moo: given that modifies the kernel ... |
| 17:05.10 | *** join/#openmoko cjb` (n=cjb@wireless-231.media.mit.edu) |
| 17:05.14 | cjb` | PirateHead: I think you're confused. |
| 17:05.54 | so_solid_moo | xorAxAx: given that 'what' modifies the kernel? |
| 17:05.54 | PirateHead | thanks for name change, was fumbling looking for my ` |
| 17:06.06 | xorAxAx | so_solid_moo: PirateHead |
| 17:06.13 | PirateHead | cjb: can't you link to LGPL stuff in proprietary code? |
| 17:06.20 | xorAxAx | PirateHead: you can |
| 17:06.30 | cjb | PirateHead: LGPL, not GPL. |
| 17:06.32 | so_solid_moo | xorAxAx: that's irrelevant; I was talking about the license he was describing, not what software was covered by the license |
| 17:06.42 | *** join/#openmoko esden (n=esden@wohnheim58.fh-rosenheim.de) |
| 17:07.27 | xorAxAx | so_solid_moo: "18:04:10 < so_solid_moo> PirateHead: you're actually describing the LGPL pretty well, but not the GPL :) |
| 17:07.30 | xorAxAx | " |
| 17:07.33 | xorAxAx | so_solid_moo: is wrong |
| 17:07.51 | so_solid_moo | xorAxAx: what aspect of the rules he mentioned is not like the LGPL? |
| 17:08.08 | *** join/#openmoko ninHer (n=ninHer@unaffiliated/ninher) |
| 17:08.12 | PirateHead | xoraxax: how? I was saying I could use GPL'd code in proprietary apps as long as yada yada, etc; and I was thinking LGPL. |
| 17:08.14 | xorAxAx | so_solid_moo: thats irrelevant |
| 17:08.17 | xorAxAx | 18:03:43 < PirateHead> I could even modify the GPL'd parts, providing I distributed the modifications |
| 17:08.24 | xorAxAx | that is possible even in gpl scenarios |
| 17:08.28 | PirateHead | xoraxax: and so_solid_mooo pointed it out |
| 17:08.31 | so_solid_moo | xorAxAx: you totally don't understand what I said. |
| 17:08.41 | xorAxAx | so_solid_moo: then explain it :) |
| 17:09.09 | so_solid_moo | xorAxAx: he was talking about how he could use GPL'd software linked with a proprietary app |
| 17:09.49 | xorAxAx | so_solid_moo: yes |
| 17:09.57 | xorAxAx | gplled source is the kernel in my example |
| 17:10.05 | xorAxAx | he is using it, through indirect syscalls |
| 17:10.25 | so_solid_moo | right. So you cannot do that, even if you distribute the source you used and modifications you did or didn't make, if you link to it. |
| 17:10.34 | PirateHead | lol, that's bullshit xoraxax |
| 17:10.39 | xorAxAx | PirateHead: why?!? |
| 17:10.54 | PirateHead | that's like saying proprietary java code violates the GPL and is illegal |
| 17:11.05 | xorAxAx | so_solid_moo: he can modify the kernel and ship proprietary apps at the same time |
| 17:11.06 | PirateHead | just because it *can* run indirectly on a GPL'd kernel |
| 17:11.13 | cjb | there's an exception in the GPL for compilers/operating systems. |
| 17:11.17 | xorAxAx | PirateHead: no, that was not my point |
| 17:11.21 | xorAxAx | cjb: exactly |
| 17:11.44 | koen | libgcc has a gpl exception |
| 17:11.53 | xorAxAx | thats unrelated :) |
| 17:11.53 | so_solid_moo | xorAxAx: we're talking about using gpl'd code, not running on a free os |
| 17:11.59 | xorAxAx | but another example, maybe |
| 17:12.10 | xorAxAx | so_solid_moo: no, we are talking about modifications |
| 17:12.28 | xorAxAx | in GPLed code and the usage ofthem in closed apps |
| 17:12.40 | so_solid_moo | xorAxAx: go read the discussion again. |
| 17:13.16 | xorAxAx | no, i just want to point out that this is right: |
| 17:13.17 | xorAxAx | "18:03:43 < PirateHead> I could even modify the GPL'd parts, providing I distributed the modifications |
| 17:13.19 | PirateHead | (I frequently wish I could say that in real life) |
| 17:13.32 | so_solid_moo | xorAxAx: sure, the GPL always allows you to redistribute modifications |
| 17:14.07 | xorAxAx | so_solid_moo: but it doesnt allow you to distribute the closed app together with it if they are linked |
| 17:14.35 | so_solid_moo | ... which is why I said using GPL'd code like that isn't possible, but LGPL'd is. |
| 17:14.58 | xorAxAx | yes |
| 17:15.11 | PirateHead | yes |
| 17:15.43 | xorAxAx | and even then, i regularly experience coworkers who prefer to copy lgpl code into the closed app ... |
| 17:16.03 | so_solid_moo | you can't copy and paste lgpl code into a closed app |
| 17:16.08 | xorAxAx | right |
| 17:16.51 | PirateHead | closed apps are a total quagmire |
| 17:18.01 | PirateHead | (which is why we're sitting in #openmoko =D) |
| 17:19.18 | vargr | "appropriating" someone else's code is bad, |
| 17:19.27 | vargr | whether you're writing a closed app or an open app |
| 17:19.58 | vargr | but, it just so happens, the folks who have generously written open source code |
| 17:20.17 | vargr | often allow you to use it in your own app, PROVIDED that you open your app as well |
| 17:20.38 | xorAxAx | one of the problems is that java doesnt allow another solution to the problem |
| 17:20.41 | *** join/#openmoko jtokash (n=jtokash@corporate.homestead-inc.com) |
| 17:20.46 | *** join/#openmoko Laibsch (n=Laibsch@dialin107200.justdsl.de) |
| 17:20.59 | PirateHead | I keep hoping to see old proprietary stuff that I used to use open up. |
| 17:20.59 | xorAxAx | except patching at runtime using dirty reflection |
| 17:21.09 | PirateHead | the Jarte word processor for Windows, for example |
| 17:22.17 | PirateHead | when I get rich, I'm gonna buy tons of old video games from their owners and open them all up - media, source code, rights, and all |
| 17:22.59 | PirateHead | I hate seeing those old classics collecting dust when I could be messing with them :) |
| 17:25.03 | cjb | yeah, sadly it doesn't work that way. stuff doesn't open up, it just disappears still encumbered. |
| 17:25.18 | flickerfly | :-) When I get rich I'm going to buy Microsoft and opensource exchange, AD. Then I'm going to enforce standards compliance (real standards, not the type marketing talks about) |
| 17:25.35 | *** join/#openmoko ninHer (n=ninHer@unaffiliated/ninher) |
| 17:27.00 | PirateHead | cjb: what do you mean? Blender was bought and then opened up. |
| 17:27.49 | *** join/#openmoko esden_ (n=esden@wohnheim58.fh-rosenheim.de) |
| 17:29.59 | *** join/#openmoko ruskie (n=ruskie@sourcemage/mage/ruskie) |
| 17:32.21 | cbpage | there would've been a chance to do that with atari in the late 90's... too late now tho |
| 17:32.29 | cbpage | (it sold for about $10mil) |
| 17:34.03 | *** join/#openmoko dneary (n=dneary@251.9.39-62.rev.gaoland.net) |
| 17:40.39 | cjb | PirateHead: I mean that 99.5% of application aren't that lucky. :) |
| 17:41.26 | PirateHead | cjb: I guess I've only heard the success stories. |
| 17:41.38 | PirateHead | The failed ones don't make it to slashdot? |
| 17:41.49 | cjb | Yeah. Well, like you say, just think of all the software you used to use. |
| 17:43.31 | *** join/#openmoko greentux (n=m@195.227.105.180) |
| 17:49.04 | *** join/#openmoko mz_work (i=mz_@nat/hp/x-9ccaacddc8834fdf) |
| 17:56.37 | PirateHead | cjb: the software I used to use is still around. It's just seldom ever updated or anything. |
| 17:57.13 | PirateHead | cjb: I would even help them update it if they would let me -- but that would require me becoming an employee, and they don't pay employees to work on that software right now |
| 17:57.29 | PirateHead | cjb: opening old programs would solve that |
| 18:02.26 | *** join/#openmoko Iome (i=mika@sk1-8-2.tky.hut.fi) |
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| 18:11.39 | jthomas | you've probably seen this already http://lwn.net/Articles/217020/ but its the final specs for the Neo1973. Also available will be a "Hacker's Lunchbox", but there are no details. Anyone have ideas? |
| 18:11.59 | jthomas | I am hoping for a wifi-and-keybd portable docking station... |
| 18:12.22 | so_solid_moo | jthomas: the lunchbox is some kind of hardware access system |
| 18:12.47 | jthomas | a useful one for the average user? or is it really hacker-level? |
| 18:13.08 | so_solid_moo | hardware access as in chips, soldering irons, that kind of thing |
| 18:13.18 | so_solid_moo | wires and stuff. |
| 18:13.43 | jthomas | daamn! this thing is so nearly a computer! why can't they give us the keybd and wifi some how!? |
| 18:17.15 | hrw | space? |
| 18:17.30 | jthomas | i know, but more as an add-on with its own power |
| 18:17.42 | jthomas | a dock of sorts |
| 18:23.33 | cjb | Has the price for the Neo been sugggested/announced? |
| 18:23.37 | *** join/#openmoko Iome (n=mika@sk1-8-2.tky.hut.fi) |
| 18:23.59 | so_solid_moo | $350 was suggested. |
| 18:25.01 | PirateHead | w00t it has built-in bluetooth |
| 18:25.16 | PirateHead | it has 2 "additional buttons"? as in hardware buttons?? |
| 18:26.19 | koen | that's what they said |
| 18:26.36 | PirateHead | I'll hold out for the hacker's lunchbox |
| 18:27.04 | PirateHead | boy, it's gonna be a long wait to Feb =D |
| 18:30.07 | *** join/#openmoko Iome (i=mika@sk1-8-2.tky.hut.fi) |
| 18:33.09 | jjazz | Would it be possible to use a wifi microsd card? |
| 18:33.37 | hrw | no |
| 18:33.45 | hrw | wont fit |
| 18:33.52 | jjazz | What won't fit? |
| 18:34.01 | hrw | wifi microsd card |
| 18:34.16 | *** join/#openmoko _buz (n=buz@dhcp-203-48-vpn.unizh.ch) |
| 18:34.20 | hrw | microsd slot is under battery so only memory cards fit |
| 18:34.27 | jjazz | Ah. Ok |
| 18:35.20 | jjazz | I have to say, wifi really is the thing that keeps this device from being worth $350 to me |
| 18:35.58 | *** join/#openmoko dgilmore (n=dennis@fedora/dgilmore) |
| 18:37.02 | dgilmore | whats needed to get early access ? any idea when general availability will be? |
| 18:37.23 | hrw | jjazz: I count on developer discount |
| 18:37.31 | jjazz | hrw: agreed |
| 18:40.06 | jthomas | jjazz, i agree - the wifi is a huge limitation. and i don't know what it takes to get a devel discount, but i am sure that i don't qualify... |
| 18:40.29 | *** join/#openmoko Iome (i=mika@sk1-8-2.tky.hut.fi) |
| 18:40.36 | *** join/#openmoko pben (n=pben@nat-205-223.arlut.utexas.edu) |
| 18:41.02 | pben | hello folks |
| 18:41.11 | jthomas | hullo! |
| 18:41.49 | jjazz | yacc: hacker's lunchbox contains cup of noodles and jolt |
| 18:42.43 | yacc | jjazz: I don't think that FIC has a license to sell food ;) |
| 18:42.48 | hrw | too bad that larger flash chips does not fit |
| 18:42.57 | sannes | jjazz: what kind of noodles, if it isn't the ones I like I don't think I'm getting a openmoko neo1973 after all .. |
| 18:43.16 | hrw | ~dict noodle |
| 18:43.53 | pben | Hey guys, our team is investigating replacing the proprietary GPS stack on the OpenMoko. I've got some hardware questions.... any takers? |
| 18:44.20 | hrw | pben: no hardware guys now |
| 18:44.22 | benJIman | jjazz: you'd not get much time with wifi |
| 18:44.42 | jjazz | benJIman: I know, which is why I completely understand them not including it. |
| 18:45.01 | pben | thx hrw |
| 18:45.10 | benJIman | The price is pretty reasonable compared to say the greenphone |
| 18:45.39 | jjazz | benJIman: Yes. My willingness to pay it is more a reflection of it's actual utility to me than it's worth in the market. |
| 18:45.47 | hrw | pben: and they are rather busy with getting phone ready for devels/users |
| 18:45.58 | sannes | pben: got a project page? Would want to know of your progress :) |
| 18:46.24 | so_solid_moo | pben: my understanding was that the non-free daemon is only needed for AGPS mode |
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| 18:56.58 | _buz | so_solid_moo: someone said we need the gpsd for gps as well |
| 18:57.03 | _buz | because it actually does most of the work |
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| 18:57.28 | koen | that's my understanding as well |
| 18:58.02 | yacc | benJIman: That won't work to well. From my Nokia I do know, that enabling wlan usually kills the headset bluetooth connection. |
| 18:58.09 | so_solid_moo | hm, actually, you might be right: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2006-December/000537.html |
| 18:58.10 | hrw | gpsd API is well known in linux |
| 18:58.24 | yacc | benJIman: It seems that there is interference :( |
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| 19:02.23 | benJIman | yacc: yeah of course they use same frequency range, I'd forgotten |
| 19:04.34 | yacc | benJIman: Well I did find something, but it seems there are currently none sold: http://www.expansys.com/p.aspx?i=104805 |
| 19:08.26 | pben | woops was away from keyboard |
| 19:08.39 | pben | Our project is at www.gpstk.org |
| 19:09.07 | *** part/#openmoko dgilmore (n=dennis@fedora/dgilmore) |
| 19:09.31 | pben | we're just looking at feasibility right now.. if we can do it we'll no doubt put up OpenMoko/gpstk page |
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| 19:15.13 | koen | pben: it looks like gpstk is what we need to replace agpsd |
| 19:16.38 | pben | koen: the potential may be there... it depends on the hardware and the api(s) |
| 19:16.55 | hrw | does it is API compatible? |
| 19:17.19 | _buz | mhh bluetooth wireless router looks svelte |
| 19:17.53 | pben | hrw: are you asking if GPSTk is open source? |
| 19:18.27 | hrw | pben: I know that this is Open. I ask does it is API compatible with gpsd if it has to replace it. |
| 19:18.42 | hrw | pben: iirc gps soft on linux use gpsd to communicate with gps devices |
| 19:18.57 | koen | hrw: sort of |
| 19:19.13 | koen | hrw: lots of apps just expect gpsd to feed them nmea |
| 19:19.45 | hrw | so if any other app will talk NMEA to them they will not even notice? |
| 19:20.27 | pben | hrw: from what I gather (not a gpsd user) gpsd provides error corrections over TCP/IP |
| 19:21.42 | pben | hrw: so gpsd could help OpenMojo but can't be the basis for its navigation processing |
| 19:22.04 | koen | hrw: that's the idea |
| 19:22.15 | koen | hrw: bind to port 2497 and spew data |
| 19:22.30 | koen | sane apps use a different interface to gpsd |
| 19:24.46 | pben | i've got a dumb question about OpenMoko... does it use gcc for development? |
| 19:25.07 | koen | the developers do |
| 19:26.54 | koen | NOTE: package gpstk-1.2-r0: task do_compile: started |
| 19:28.28 | hrw | koen: going to be prepared? |
| 19:28.41 | koen | sssssht |
| 19:28.44 | koen | I'm busy porting |
| 19:29.15 | koen | hrw: maybe we should replace do_compile with do_port |
| 19:29.38 | hrw | ah yes.. |
| 19:29.58 | koen | hmmm |
| 19:30.02 | hrw | do_fetch/do_unpack/do_hack/do_tweak/do_port... |
| 19:30.23 | cbpage | if the gps program provides nmea it should be possible to use the neo as a 'virtual' bluetooth gps device |
| 19:30.54 | koen | even if it doesn't, you can use gpsbabel to convert it to nmea |
| 19:32.45 | cbpage | point :) |
| 19:34.18 | cbpage | i'm really glad bluetooth's in now - even with a high-res screen there are times a full laptop's a lot better for something and it should be possible using openmoko to make that go a lot smoother than ever before |
| 19:35.13 | *** join/#openmoko apokryphos (n=francis@87-194-86-227.bethere.co.uk) |
| 19:35.26 | apokryphos | this channel is set to +s by the way... |
| 19:36.33 | koen | pben: is 'make install' supposed to install gpstk? |
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| 19:37.28 | pben | one sec afk... |
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| 19:43.45 | yacc | So what will be in this car kit? *wonder* |
| 19:44.02 | benJIman | hacker lunchbox sounds more interesting |
| 19:44.04 | cbpage | handsfree kit? |
| 19:44.05 | cbpage | yeah |
| 19:44.06 | hrw | yacc: phone holder |
| 19:44.28 | yacc | And the lunch box? |
| 19:44.52 | hrw | yacc: knife and few other lunch tools :D |
| 19:45.55 | hrw | and extra connector: serial/jtag/usb |
| 19:49.19 | pben | koen: sorry for lack of response. boss in office. :-) |
| 19:50.57 | pben | koen: make install won't work. you have to autogen first to create configure. we usually don't use make, we use the 'jam' utility to make the gpstk. (jam supports windows) |
| 19:51.35 | koen | pben: did all that, everything is built, but the install part in the makefiles is empty |
| 19:52.43 | koen | koen@bitbake:/data/build/koen/OE/build/tmp/angstrom/work/armv5te-angstrom-linux-gnueabi/gpstk-1.2-r0/gpstk-1.2/apps/time$ file calgpscalgps: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, ARM, version 1 (SYSV), for GNU/Linux 2.6.14, dynamically linked (uses shared libs), not stripped |
| 19:53.33 | Tv | anyone have an openembedded local.conf that actually builds against the current tip? I'm having way too much trouble.. |
| 19:53.57 | Tv | I don't even care what target arch, if I could just get *something* to compile successfully |
| 19:54.25 | hrw | Tv: OE/conf/local.conf.sample |
| 19:57.50 | koen | http://www.openembedded.org/~koen/OE/gpstk_1.2.bb |
| 19:58.42 | Tv | any known good MACHINE and DISTRO? |
| 19:59.10 | hrw | Tv: angstrom-2007.1/h2200 |
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| 20:10.58 | so_solid_moo | "iPhone not legal in US yet" funny: http://theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=36856 |
| 20:11.16 | cbrake | Tv: x86/generic built a week ago or so. logicpd-pxa270/generic should build. |
| 20:11.32 | Tv | yeah currently crunching angstrom |
| 20:11.46 | Tv | we'll see how this goes |
| 20:12.15 | hrw | Tv: any ARMv4+ with angstrom-2007.1 (except compulab-pxa270) or any ARMv4 (plus compulab-pxa270) with angstrom-2007.1-oabi ;D |
| 20:12.31 | flickerfly | Have there been any announcement about approx. price for the openmoko? |
| 20:12.42 | Psi_ | hm.. gunna have to do some test when it comes out to see which bluetooth dongle gives the best results with the neo |
| 20:13.36 | stefan_schmidt | flickerfly: Still 350$ |
| 20:14.33 | flickerfly | stefan_schmidt: thanks. Where is info like that foundL |
| 20:14.34 | flickerfly | s/L/? |
| 20:15.06 | stefan_schmidt | flickerfly: They wrote it to ml some time ago. |
| 20:15.46 | flickerfly | oh, maybe I should go search the archives. Thanks |
| 20:19.14 | pben | koen: I can't reproduce your problem with gpstk's make system. problem with my system. i'll post a question to the developer list to see if anyone has actually installed using make and not with jam |
| 20:19.52 | hrw | pben: we can write do_install() part by hand in OE recipe but prefer to avoid it |
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| 20:30.21 | _buz | mhh i wonder if there is something like a microsd to cable to minisd adapter? |
| 20:31.22 | _buz | to shoehorn a minisd wlan hard into the case somehow |
| 20:31.25 | hrw | I do not even recognize which is which (micro<>mini) |
| 20:31.42 | _buz | (ive seen cable based pci risers before so it's not totally out of whack, just very nearly so) |
| 20:32.22 | Psi_ | hrw, http://www.geheugenkaartjes.nl/images/nieuws/microsd_minisd_blue.png |
| 20:33.10 | _buz | now thats a reallllyy bad comparison |
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| 20:56.03 | Zero_Dogg | any pricing information available? |
| 20:56.17 | stefan_schmidt | 350$ |
| 20:59.47 | Zero_Dogg | hrm, that'll take alot of digging through my pockets to find, ah well |
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| 21:40.52 | _buz | oh |
| 21:41.01 | _buz | sandisk now ships minisdhc cards with 4G |
| 21:41.35 | stefan_schmidt | mini or micro? |
| 21:42.28 | _buz | mini |
| 21:42.39 | stefan_schmidt | ok |
| 21:42.40 | _buz | then again |
| 21:42.49 | _buz | there will be very few devices that can actually do sdhc |
| 21:43.42 | _buz | which is a shame |
| 21:43.47 | _buz | 2G minisd is half of that |
| 21:44.06 | _buz | and i think the neo cant use more than 1G anyway? |
| 21:44.47 | mjr | that's been the word... |
| 21:45.06 | cjb | is that a hardware flaw? the latest mmc/ stuff in Linux supports >2G now. |
| 21:45.16 | cjb | (we're using it on the OLPC.) |
| 21:45.37 | mjr | as far as I've heard a limitation of the SOC |
| 21:45.45 | cjb | SOC? |
| 21:45.47 | stefan_schmidt | Where get you this 1GB limit from? |
| 21:45.51 | mjr | system-on-a-chip |
| 21:45.58 | mjr | but I'm no official source |
| 21:46.03 | stefan_schmidt | hmm |
| 21:46.05 | cjb | stefan_schmidt: there was a 1G limit in the public SD spec for a very long time. |
| 21:46.20 | cjb | the later spec only came out last October or so. |
| 21:47.01 | stefan_schmidt | ok, I'll wait for my device and test 1GB and 2GB cards with it. :) |
| 21:48.36 | cbpage | is sd hc a protocol change or just a term meaning "you need/this supports fat32"? |
| 21:48.45 | mjr | I'd just rather hear a definitive word so I can decide what capacity of microSD to buy :] |
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| 21:54.02 | _buz | mjr: each day you hold of buying microsd, it gets cheaper |
| 21:54.12 | _buz | cbpage: its protocol change |
| 21:54.25 | _buz | it's now sector addressing as opposed to byteadressing according to wikipeida |
| 21:54.47 | mjr | yeah well, I won't be buying before my Neo order is in |
| 21:55.00 | mjr | but then again I will probably order the microsd from overseas as well, can't wait too long |
| 21:55.18 | mjr | or overland, as the case may be |
| 21:59.06 | *** part/#openmoko pben (n=pben@nat-205-223.arlut.utexas.edu) |
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| 22:02.00 | *** part/#openmoko epps (i=epps@rock.hard-unix.com) |
| 22:02.01 | hrw|gone | according to one spec sd/mmc cards larger then 1G had to use blocks larger then 512 bytes - thats the reason. We got patch for sd/mmc subsystem which set block to 512 bytes always so >1GB cards works. |
| 22:02.11 | hrw|gone | thats probably whole problem |
| 22:03.01 | cjb | hrw|gone: yes, that's exactly right. |
| 22:03.04 | hrw|gone | SDHC support is going to be added in 2.6.21/22 probably as there are first versions of specification |
| 22:03.13 | hrw|gone | s/specification/implementation |
| 22:03.41 | hrw|gone | I used 2GB card in pxa255 system |
| 22:04.23 | hrw|gone | sdhc specification changed some structs |
| 22:06.10 | hrw|gone | sdhc support is in -mm queue |
| 22:06.23 | *** join/#openmoko Psi (n=benw@203.152.97.213) |
| 22:06.36 | cjb | yes. so, openmoko should have no trouble with large SD. |
| 22:06.52 | cjb | does it support the higher bus speed high-speed SD too? |
| 22:06.55 | hrw|gone | support is in 2.6.20-rc3-mm1 |
| 22:07.03 | hrw|gone | openmoko use 2.6.17.14 |
| 22:07.44 | hrw|gone | cjb: highspeed cards can work slower without problem |
| 22:08.03 | cjb | yeah, that's true. |
| 22:08.18 | hrw|gone | all SD/MMC/MMC4 cards are able to be used as 1bit mmc cards nevermind were they was 1/4/8 bit ones |
| 22:09.02 | hrw|gone | pxa25x support 1bit, pxa27x 1&4bit |
| 22:09.02 | *** part/#openmoko vargr (n=vargr@dsl092-109-027.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 22:09.11 | hrw|gone | do not know about s3c2410 |
| 22:10.57 | koen | didn't pxa255 support 4bit, but sharp didn't connect those pins? |
| 22:11.10 | hrw|gone | hm. |
| 22:11.26 | hrw|gone | I do not have armarm here |
| 22:12.19 | koen | ~armarm |
| 22:12.20 | apt | it has been said that armarm is at http://www.altera.com/literature/third-party/ddi0100e_arm_arm.pdf |
| 22:12.47 | hrw|gone | ah.. wrong word ;D |
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| 22:13.16 | hrw|gone | anyway fetched pxa255 devmanual |
| 22:13.20 | hrw|gone | its only 28M |
| 22:13.25 | koen | a while back people talked about armarm |
| 22:14.09 | koen | hrw|gone: when is that CELF conference in california, and are there still volunteers needed? |
| 22:14.51 | _buz | so can we go 2G in neo? |
| 22:14.59 | _buz | (or am i missing something) |
| 22:15.23 | _buz | maybe until summer we get 4G microsdhc |
| 22:15.30 | _buz | and get at least the small iphone storage ;) |
| 22:16.52 | hrw|gone | http://www.celinux.org/elc2007/index.html |
| 22:16.56 | hrw|gone | Location: Santa Clara, California |
| 22:16.57 | hrw|gone | Dates: April 17, 18, 19 (Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday), 2007 |
| 22:17.13 | koen | thanks |
| 22:18.49 | hrw|gone | koen: pxa255 - 1bit 20MHz |
| 22:19.11 | hrw|gone | Mbps |
| 22:19.27 | hrw|gone | pxa27x - 1bit 19.5Mbps or 4bit 78Mbps |
| 22:19.36 | hrw|gone | The MultiMediaCard/SD/SDIO controller provides the following key features: • Data-transfer rates up to 19.5 Mbps for MMC, 1-bit SD/SDIO, and SPI mode data transfers • Data-transfer rates up to 78 Mbps for 4-bit SD/SDIO data transfers |
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| 22:20.57 | koen | hrw|gone: drat |
| 22:21.03 | hrw|gone | fscking samsung - only 5KB/s from server |
| 22:21.41 | hrw|gone | "samsung s3c2410 manual" - 4th hit in google == Neo |
| 22:22.00 | cjb | yeah, that's a shame; with such a small nand, it would be great to have fast SD. |
| 22:22.27 | *** part/#openmoko esden_ (n=esden@wohnheim58.fh-rosenheim.de) |
| 22:23.08 | hrw|gone | — 1bit / 4bit (wide bus) Mode & Block / Stream Mode Switch support |
| 22:23.10 | hrw|gone | 2410 |
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| 22:23.22 | _buz | i dont anything can be truly be considered fast about the s3c2410 |
| 22:24.22 | hrw|gone | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:24.22 | hrw|gone | . In case of MMC, the maximum clock for data transfer is 10 MHz. |
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| 22:25.27 | hrw|gone | cu |
| 22:29.02 | cbpage | i wonder when a 130nm (or smaller) version of the 2410'll go into full production |
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| 23:27.50 | outkid | hi |
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