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| 04:17.52 | wiml | So, it's January now. :) Any news on the hardware release? Some unspecified time mid-month? |
| 04:49.34 | aloril | yet another idea: make neo work like twiddler ( http://www.handykey.com/site/twiddler2.html ) |
| 04:49.50 | aloril | instead of qwerty keyboard on screen |
| 04:50.02 | aloril | multitouch == multichord |
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| 11:40.13 | GoGi | Is OpenMoko a working mobile phone? |
| 11:41.25 | koen | no, openmoko is software |
| 11:41.28 | mjr | no, in many ways. First, it's not a phone, it's an OS platform to be run on one, and no, there's no working phone in the market yet that runs it |
| 11:41.31 | koen | the neo1973 is a mobile phone |
| 11:41.44 | mjr | the first phone _should_ be available this month |
| 11:42.11 | *** join/#openmoko Demitar (n=demitar@83.209.124.78) |
| 11:42.43 | GoGi | I see |
| 11:43.19 | GoGi | and the source code of all the device drivers for the devices in this phone will be available? |
| 11:44.07 | mjr | from publically available information, there seems to be one exception: the AGPS chip needs a proprietary daemon program from the chip manufacturer |
| 11:44.21 | mjr | the other stuff, yes, should get released with the phone with source |
| 11:45.00 | GoGi | the daemon is a user-space process? |
| 11:45.08 | mjr | GoGi, as far as I've heard |
| 11:45.21 | mjr | communicates via the AGPS chip through a serial interface |
| 11:45.34 | mjr | s/via/with/ |
| 11:45.53 | mjr | oo, shiny |
| 11:46.28 | koen | s/shiny/annoying/ |
| 11:46.28 | GoGi | I do not know a lot about GSM and mobile phones (yet) |
| 11:46.29 | mjr | yes, probably on the long run |
| 11:46.55 | koen | especially if apt it slow and you're typing in another window |
| 11:47.11 | koen | and apts response triggers the nick highlight |
| 11:48.31 | xkr47 | what kind of development env is available for developing tools on a e.g. PC |
| 11:48.47 | xkr47 | <PROTECTED> |
| 11:48.49 | *** join/#openmoko mikesh (n=mikesh@feldconf.feld.cvut.cz) |
| 11:48.58 | koen | multiple |
| 11:49.02 | GoGi | is there something like QEmu that can simulate the neo1973? |
| 11:49.06 | koen | Xoo or openembedded |
| 11:52.21 | GoGi | where can I get technical information about the neo1973? |
| 11:52.35 | koen | see topic |
| 11:52.36 | xkr47 | topic |
| 11:53.43 | GoGi | topic? |
| 11:53.46 | GoGi | ah |
| 11:54.47 | mjr | hmh, it's an ARM system, which qemu can simulate, but would probably miss some peculiarities of the system... |
| 11:55.28 | mjr | spesifically the integrated peripherals |
| 11:55.48 | koen | right |
| 11:55.48 | koen | so you can just use Xoo |
| 11:57.04 | mjr | righto, that'd probably help somewhat |
| 11:57.19 | mjr | now that I checked what it is :] |
| 11:57.28 | GoGi | The International Mobile Equipment Identity (IMEI) is a number unique to every GSM and UMTS mobile phone. |
| 11:57.42 | GoGi | Does the neo1973 have such a thing? |
| 11:57.53 | mjr | yes, since it's a GSM phone |
| 12:00.36 | mjr | (the IMEI will probably be embedded into the GSM chip, which is separate from the CPU running OpenMoko and hooked up with a serial interface |
| 12:10.37 | GoGi | serial interface of course |
| 12:26.09 | *** join/#openmoko [g2] (n=g2@nslu2-linux/g2) |
| 12:28.03 | GoGi | so it is sure not to have bluetooth? |
| 12:28.32 | mjr | nothing is sure |
| 12:28.46 | LaF0rge | but I'm not the product manager. |
| 12:29.22 | mjr | *drool* |
| 12:29.29 | GoGi | well say that USB is the only connection I can have |
| 12:29.36 | GoGi | is there something like IP over USB? |
| 12:29.40 | mjr | yes |
| 12:30.25 | mjr | in fact I seem to recall something about the moko being able to simulate a USB network device to a computer it's hooked up to; LaF0rge, mind verifying that? |
| 12:31.48 | GoGi | ah that would be great |
| 12:32.03 | GoGi | ssh into my mobile phone |
| 12:32.38 | xkr47 | so your friends could run irssi on it.. just as a show-off :D |
| 12:32.53 | xkr47 | at the expense of battery life :D |
| 12:33.25 | xkr47 | what would be nice would be a smallish solar panel I could attach to my bag and that would charge the phone :) |
| 12:33.39 | xkr47 | (when it was in the bag, connected to the panel) |
| 12:33.46 | mjr | if I recall correctly, it was in fact that method which was supposed to give computers GPRS access through the Moko in the absence of BlueTooth. But again, I'm not a FIC guy and this is from memory. |
| 12:33.50 | GoGi | I thought the phone gets recharged over USB |
| 12:34.00 | GoGi | so when attached to USB, there is no battery life |
| 12:34.37 | LaF0rge | yes, it charges from usb |
| 12:35.19 | koen | not like the a780 that doesn't charge from usb when using gprs? |
| 12:35.22 | xkr47 | I guess it doesn't need a proper usb device / host connected; merely voltage |
| 12:36.14 | mjr | USB Solar Charger: http://www.gadgethub.co.uk/shop/detail.asp?ProductGroupID=11848 |
| 12:36.14 | GoGi | so a separate charging device is available? |
| 12:36.14 | xkr47 | then one could take any solar panel and buy a usb connector from the shop and connect them together |
| 12:36.14 | mjr | :) |
| 12:36.14 | xorAxAx | LaF0rge: does it make sense to use the tickless patches that olpc is currently developing for openmoko? |
| 12:36.14 | LaF0rge | koen: I didn't even notice that until now. |
| 12:36.14 | xkr47 | mjr \o/ |
| 12:36.14 | xorAxAx | LaF0rge: they got linux down to 6 CS/sec. |
| 12:36.14 | LaF0rge | you just need +vbus |
| 12:36.15 | xkr47 | yeah |
| 12:36.15 | koen | LaF0rge: it says it charges, but there's a net loss |
| 12:36.15 | xorAxAx | still reducing them |
| 12:36.31 | koen | LaF0rge: that's how I killed my a780 in berlin |
| 12:36.44 | koen | LaF0rge: I forgot to bring the wallsocket usb charger |
| 12:36.52 | LaF0rge | koen: oh, that depends probably on the charger. they have 100mA and 500mA chargers |
| 12:37.07 | xkr47 | mjr, thx a billion ;) |
| 12:37.09 | koen | my laptop does 500mA :) |
| 12:37.09 | LaF0rge | koen: actually, I think the charger distinguishes three different types of chargers (a780) |
| 12:37.22 | LaF0rge | koen: it's not about the laptop. |
| 12:37.32 | LaF0rge | it's about the resistor connected to pin 5 of the mini-usb-d |
| 12:37.51 | LaF0rge | using a normal mini-USB cable (non-motorola) results in no charging at all |
| 12:38.07 | xkr47 | any info on how much power it actually needs for charging ? |
| 12:38.07 | LaF0rge | [even though the software indicates 'i'm connected to usb, i must be charging') |
| 12:38.14 | xkr47 | does it use the full 500mA ? |
| 12:38.36 | LaF0rge | xkr: if you want to keep me further from doing actual development, then keep up those unimportant questions that can be dealt after the product releas... |
| 12:38.53 | xkr47 | yeah I was just going to say it's probably the least important thing :D |
| 12:39.00 | xkr47 | sorry, go back to work now :) |
| 12:39.06 | mjr | LaF0rge, get back to work, you! |
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| 12:40.25 | yacc | LaF0rge: When we are at it, unimportant questions to delay your work? When will the product be released? |
| 12:40.54 | mjr | yacc, eek, that just cost us 5 minutes! |
| 12:41.03 | xorAxAx | LaF0rge: have you read my question? |
| 12:41.14 | GoGi | LaF0rge: what are you? |
| 12:42.01 | xorAxAx | GoGi: it is a lieutenant |
| 12:42.36 | mjr | human, with a neural interface to an external visor |
| 12:44.00 | timtimred | get a proper generator instead. |
| 12:44.22 | mjr | heh |
| 12:44.25 | timtimred | oops, my mind is thinking sideways. |
| 12:46.30 | xkr47 | mjr, if you find better solar chargers, let me know! |
| 12:46.41 | xkr47 | timtimred, like ? |
| 12:48.18 | mjr | ok, this seems nice also: http://www.cetsolar.com/sc150.htm |
| 12:48.43 | mjr | it uses rechargable AA batteries as buffer and is a bit more flexible |
| 12:49.03 | mjr | (and you can directly use the AA batteries in equipment that wants those) |
| 12:49.08 | GoGi | hm a random slashdot comment says that the neo1973 has no headphone? |
| 12:49.35 | GoGi | what's a headphone? |
| 12:50.00 | xorAxAx | headphone jacket maybe |
| 12:50.10 | xkr47 | mjr, the first one used batteries also |
| 12:50.25 | xkr47 | but maybe not AA |
| 12:50.43 | xkr47 | mjr, it's cheaper also |
| 12:50.44 | mjr | *nod* |
| 12:51.40 | mjr | and the foldability is nice |
| 12:52.02 | xkr47 | wonder what the 9V input is for.. :) |
| 12:52.13 | xkr47 | maybe it's meant to double as a regular battery charger :O |
| 12:52.36 | mjr | Hey, I didn't notice that. Probably is for that, yes. Now I'm wanting it even more. |
| 12:52.48 | xkr47 | the first one was 12.5 x 12 x 1cm, the latter one 12.7 x 8.3 x 3.2 cm |
| 12:53.29 | xkr47 | but it's nice with AA batteries, then you can swap them if they run out also.. and buy extra-performant batteries |
| 12:53.53 | xkr47 | the foldability is nice for transportation but you probably want to keep it open at all other times :) |
| 12:54.06 | mjr | Of course; transport was what I was thinking |
| 12:54.49 | xkr47 | anyway, it's a lot cheaper also |
| 12:55.03 | mjr | but yeah, if you'd see it as an extra battery back/charger for USB devices, with the added bonus of getting solar power, nice ;) |
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| 12:56.00 | mjr | apparently they have a selection too: http://www.cetsolar.com/solarbatchargers.htm |
| 12:56.09 | mikesh | hi, is it interesting for openmoko? http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS5482312778.html |
| 12:56.45 | aloril | <aloril> yet another idea: make neo work like twiddler ( http://www.handykey.com/site/twiddler2.html ) |
| 12:56.45 | aloril | <aloril> instead of qwerty keyboard on screen |
| 12:56.45 | aloril | <aloril> multitouch == multichord |
| 12:57.02 | aloril | to go further with above idea: why not use both hands: 10 chord typing ;-) |
| 12:57.35 | aloril | I wonder what kind of speed might be possible |
| 12:58.58 | xkr47 | mjr, thx |
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| 13:04.30 | aloril | lots of linux phones (most are probably quite closed though): http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT9423084269.html |
| 13:05.31 | darmou | will packages be updated and installed via ipkg update; ipkg install packagename from an ssh session? |
| 13:05.39 | mjr | yeah, Moko is not the only Linux phone platform out there, but it is the most open. Well, will be, if FIC doesn't get cold feet soon ;) |
| 13:06.14 | koen | darmou: via a GUI |
| 13:06.18 | darmou | I assume most of the openembedded packages will be avaliable as a moko based distro |
| 13:06.45 | koen | as can be seen on http://www.openmoko.com/pixels/app_manager.png |
| 13:06.51 | darmou | koen isn't gui packages updates broken in zaurus, I thought command line was the only way to fly so to speak |
| 13:07.41 | darmou | ohh ok that package manager does look pretty cool, hopefully it works as good as it looks;) |
| 13:08.29 | koen | darmou: what has a zaurus to with this? |
| 13:09.21 | darmou | well isn't the zaurus based on openembedded as well, or is openmoko build differently from the ground up and does not use gpe, opie etc |
| 13:09.44 | aloril | at least can assign single chord+gesture to all common things I do .. (including most common bookmarks for example) |
| 13:10.36 | darmou | I personally would like a foldup keyboard such as a stowaway |
| 13:10.43 | darmou | you can touch type on it |
| 13:10.43 | *** join/#openmoko Stephmw (i=c0648207@gateway/web/cgi-irc/irc.jpgclan.com/x-312cff2812ccc315) |
| 13:11.32 | koen | darmou: the zaurus is hardware and therefore cannot be based on a software buildsystem like openembedded |
| 13:12.00 | darmou | koen my point about the package manager is that in the past package managers that are gui have not been the most reliable |
| 13:12.56 | hrw|work | ipkg suxx |
| 13:14.04 | darmou | hrw|work well the openzaurus one is slower that the pdaxrom version but I think it does more stuff. the full debian dpkg might be better |
| 13:14.23 | koen | heh |
| 13:14.44 | koen | signs of cluelessnes part 1: comparing ipkg to dpkg |
| 13:15.29 | darmou | apt might be a better comparison but the .ipk format is based on dpkg |
| 13:15.33 | apt | that's too long, darmou |
| 13:15.48 | hrw|work | ipkg == apt + dpkg in one |
| 13:15.55 | hrw|work | in short |
| 13:16.05 | darmou | yeah that's why it's a bit confusing sigh |
| 13:17.45 | darmou | but anyway this new gui package manager will be really easy to use for non developers which will be good. |
| 13:18.37 | darmou | One thing that's really atracting me to this phone is the abiltiy set up proximity VOIP so that I can save on phone calls |
| 13:18.57 | darmou | well if it's not bulit into the phone alerady I can build it:( |
| 13:19.00 | darmou | :) |
| 13:19.03 | hrw|work | darmou: save? voip over gprs is cheap for you? |
| 13:19.17 | darmou | no using my wireless access point |
| 13:19.44 | darmou | I assume there will be some way of adding wireless connectivity to the device |
| 13:20.12 | koen | wireless connectivity, like ehm.... gsm? |
| 13:20.18 | hrw|work | darmou: powered hub? |
| 13:21.41 | darmou | well according to http://www.esato.com/archive/t.php/t-136764 it does have usb host so should be no probs |
| 13:21.59 | so_solid_moo | unpowered usb host. |
| 13:22.17 | koen | heh |
| 13:22.38 | koen | darmou: taking stuff lkcl writes like the gospel truth is a bit ehm... |
| 13:22.42 | koen | "stupid" |
| 13:22.57 | koen | http://www.openmoko.com/press/index.html has all the info |
| 13:23.13 | GoGi | you could provide the usb power via that solar panel device |
| 13:24.49 | aloril | at least in Finland some providers offer flat rate GPRS (could use that for 'free VOIP') |
| 13:25.48 | hrw|work | GoGi: come back to ground please.. |
| 13:26.04 | darmou | yeah but unlike Australia Finland is way ahead, I did hear that 3 hutchson were going to allow VOIP on their network as a way of compating Telstra's new network, not sure if OpenMoko is 3g compatble though. |
| 13:26.10 | hrw|work | solar power for keeping 500mA wifi stick working... |
| 13:28.03 | GoGi | argh |
| 13:28.05 | koen | darmou: read http://www.openmoko.com/press/index.html |
| 13:28.05 | darmou | doh should read specs Ti GPRS (2.5G not EDGE) so guess not:( |
| 13:28.06 | darmou | koen beat me to it |
| 13:28.07 | koen | openmoko.com has *2* pages and people still manage to not read half of it |
| 13:28.07 | hrw|work | phone itself will have probably 900mAh battery (popular capacity) and will run few hours of use. |
| 13:28.07 | koen | *puzzled* |
| 13:28.12 | hrw|work | sticking external wireless to same battery would kill. |
| 13:29.04 | GoGi | AH WAIT! |
| 13:29.12 | GoGi | how can I use a bash shell? |
| 13:29.18 | GoGi | without a keyboard? |
| 13:29.27 | hrw|work | GoGi: use on screen one? |
| 13:29.29 | Stephmw | on-screen keyboard :) |
| 13:29.32 | koen | bash? |
| 13:29.33 | Stephmw | ... or morse code |
| 13:29.35 | hrw|work | GoGi: connect via usb-network? |
| 13:29.40 | koen | I don't think that will be included |
| 13:30.01 | Stephmw | koen: busybox perhaps? |
| 13:30.10 | darmou | or via wireless network using powerd hub |
| 13:30.13 | koen | Stephmw: yeah |
| 13:30.18 | GoGi | yes, network works ALWAYS of course |
| 13:30.20 | Stephmw | in any case, yeah, a touchscreen isn't a friendly interface to bash :) |
| 13:30.41 | koen | Stephmw: last time I checked the software list it used busybox |
| 13:30.50 | darmou | http://www.amazon.com/Cyber-Power-Battery-Powered-CP-H420MP/dp/B0002UQALQ |
| 13:30.56 | GoGi | and they are using an X server, don't they? |
| 13:31.19 | GoGi | is the touchscreen a normal X pointer device? |
| 13:31.31 | darmou | GoGi cool, remote X:) |
| 13:31.51 | mjr | VOIP over GPRS has serious quality of service considerations, unless you're using push to talk and don't mind some latency |
| 13:32.04 | mjr | (which has been talked about on the list) |
| 13:32.16 | darmou | that would certainly make it easier to devlop apps |
| 13:32.46 | aloril | does Ti GPRS mean that its data or call but not at same time? ie.. is it actually possible to talk and browse net at same time? |
| 13:32.51 | GoGi | what if I destroy my /etc/X11/xorg.conf? |
| 13:33.09 | darmou | I don't think VOIP over GPRS is a great idea |
| 13:33.21 | mjr | darmou, not as such, no |
| 13:33.29 | hrw|work | GoGi: since when kdrive has one? |
| 13:33.43 | GoGi | kdrive? |
| 13:34.12 | hrw|work | xserver-kdrive |
| 13:34.37 | Stephmw | aloril: typically not possible - the call will take priority and gprs will be 'suspended' |
| 13:34.58 | aloril | darmou: so need to wait to be near wifi hotspot and use usb-wifi or be near some other connectitivity or wait for version that supports something faster than GRPS |
| 13:35.01 | mjr | Yah, typically that happens. Dunno if the Moko is any different. |
| 13:35.28 | GoGi | I see |
| 13:35.28 | darmou | aloril fortunatly there are lots of free hotspots sprining up |
| 13:35.45 | aloril | Stephmw: hmm.. I wonder if some hacking would make it possible to occasionally sneak GRPS or is this hardcoded in GSM(/GRPS) module? |
| 13:36.00 | aloril | or is this again case "wait for next version" |
| 13:36.13 | darmou | sneak GRPS? |
| 13:36.26 | aloril | sneak GRPS traffic in middle of GSM call ;-) |
| 13:36.32 | GoGi | when will the next version be available? |
| 13:37.00 | Stephmw | aloril: this is both a hardware limitation and a base-station-enforced setup |
| 13:37.10 | aloril | about bash shell: onboard keyboard should work I assume? (not seen bash or similar screenshot of neo ...) |
| 13:37.20 | Stephmw | aloril: like mjr says though, no idea about the Neo's situation in this |
| 13:37.21 | aloril | Stephmw: oh, ouch |
| 13:37.28 | koen | goldfish memory |
| 13:37.39 | koen | there will be no bash on the neo by default |
| 13:37.58 | GoGi | no bash?!? |
| 13:38.04 | aloril | GRPS A does support both at same time (Nokia N95) (just read wiki GRPS and Nokia N95 page) |
| 13:38.05 | darmou | I gather that means no other type of shell either |
| 13:38.26 | GoGi | very strange |
| 13:38.27 | yacc | koen: Well, it could be solved easily by FIC, by posting an integer in the range (5..31) ;) |
| 13:38.44 | aloril | GoGi: umm.. I would assume there is some kind of shell or at least you can install one if not there by default ;-) |
| 13:39.03 | koen | "let's all ask questions that were answered 10 minutes ago" |
| 13:39.51 | koen | yacc: februari has 31 days!?!? |
| 13:39.53 | koen | :P |
| 13:40.41 | Stephmw | aloril: I'm not seeing the bit on the N95 pages that decribes simultaneous GPRS data + GSM call - would you link it? |
| 13:40.57 | GoGi | now should I buy a neo1973 or wait for a next version? I've never spent money on a mobile phone exactly because they were always uninteresting black boxes. |
| 13:42.06 | GoGi | ? |
| 13:42.49 | koen | did I use difficult words again? |
| 13:42.51 | Stephmw | wait to see the first rev before making a decision :) |
| 13:43.15 | aloril | didn't see any comment that would confirm bash, busybox or some other shell, however it would be quite weird if there was no on screen keyboard (which does seem to been confirmed in earlier talk) |
| 13:44.06 | aloril | sorry, finnish text: "• Dual Transfer Mode (DTM) tukee samanaikaista äänen ja tiedonsiirtoa GSM/EDGE-verkoissa. Yksinkertainen luokka A, multislot luokka 11 (enimmäisnopeus: siirto/lataus = 177,6 / 236,8 kbit/s)" |
| 13:44.48 | darmou | interesting page http://www.mobilewhack.com/reviews/fic_neo1973_smartphone.html seems to think followup model with built in wi fi and bluetooth |
| 13:45.05 | koen | reviews?!?! |
| 13:45.10 | koen | the phone isn't out yet |
| 13:45.15 | koen | not even to reviewers |
| 13:45.42 | darmou | preview? not sure what you would call it. |
| 13:45.58 | aloril | "... supports concurrent voice and data at GSM/EDGE networks. Simple class A, multislot class 11 (max speed out/in ...)" |
| 13:46.00 | koen | copy press-release, paste, publish |
| 13:46.00 | GoGi | Now I understand |
| 13:46.01 | GoGi | thanks |
| 13:46.05 | aloril | yup, not out yet ;-) |
| 13:46.11 | GoGi | I think |
| 13:46.57 | aloril | and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPRS : Class A |
| 13:46.57 | aloril | <PROTECTED> |
| 13:48.05 | aloril | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Class_A_GPRS_Phones claims Nokia N93 is one (which is available) |
| 13:48.37 | yacc | aloril: Class A devices are not that common, and the Neo will get just a simple GPRS module, without even EGPRS. |
| 13:49.19 | aloril | yacc: yeah :-( but its open that is *the* most important feature for me |
| 13:49.33 | yacc | aloril: yep. |
| 13:50.07 | yacc | GPRS is enough. Better open and slow than fast and dumb ;) |
| 13:50.25 | aloril | GoGi: about waiting, if you wait you will get better, but then again if you wait even more you get even better... meanwhile you don't have open phone to use |
| 13:50.54 | aloril | as far as I know neo is only almost completely open phone |
| 13:50.56 | xkr47 | it's like checking whether you locked your car over and over again |
| 13:51.05 | xkr47 | no wait, it's not!! |
| 13:51.06 | xkr47 | :) |
| 13:52.18 | aloril | just need reasonably priced HMD to accompany neo and consumer wearable computing would have arrived |
| 13:53.31 | aloril | (predicted at 2000 it would take 3-8 years for wearable computer to be common, still possible I guess ;-) (most of stuff already done actually, just HMD being problematic and twiddler2 not supported (except neo can do that)) |
| 13:53.58 | aloril | well.. not for "common", but being available without hardware hackery still possible |
| 13:54.25 | yacc | Waiting is somehow stupid => I mean, FIC pointy-hairs need to see some quantity sold, or the next iteration might get squashed. |
| 13:56.43 | aloril | plan to get one when its available (unless somebody surprises and offers better alternative (there isn't one coming as far as I know)) |
| 14:00.03 | aloril | what is touch resolution, ie how accurately you can draw to screen for example? what about differentiating between multiple presses close to each other? |
| 14:00.11 | mjr | yeah, with yacc here, if you're on the hedge you should really just buy the first phone so you can get in on the ground floor |
| 14:01.37 | aloril | and if you develop enough nifty application(s) maybe you get next version for free? who knows .. (I'm not with FIC so of course don't know anything about potential for this ;-) |
| 14:02.50 | aloril | except that http://www.openmoko.com/ says: "If you are interested in developing Free Software applications for the OpenMoko platform, please send information regarding embedded Linux projects you have contributed to, and the work you have done to coreteam@openmoko.org. |
| 14:02.50 | aloril | We will try to get a handful of developers early access, but please understand that we cannot provide any level of support before our launch date. All of our development efforts are focused on getting the device out." |
| 14:02.50 | mickeyl | absolutely |
| 14:03.19 | mickeyl | ping me tomorrow, i'm doing some touchscreen tests and framebuffer benchmarks tonite |
| 14:03.37 | mickeyl | the TS should be pretty high quality |
| 14:03.37 | *** join/#openmoko Ryushin (n=Ryushin@windwalker.openinnovations.com) |
| 14:04.57 | Stephmw | aloril: interesting - I didn't know about the N-series |
| 14:05.16 | aloril | mickeyl: cool, just tell any time, I'll grep for your name tomorrow ;-) |
| 14:05.58 | mickeyl | k |
| 14:08.16 | aloril | Stephmw: well.. there are several things worse in any N series compared to neo: 1) closed 2) need external keyboard for fast text entry (assuming that neo has enough good touch screen here) 3) smaller display (and not touch display) 4) I don't think they have USB host support |
| 14:08.58 | aloril | oh and they cost more too ;-) |
| 14:14.21 | xkr47 | does the X included need a window manager like regular X ? |
| 14:14.27 | xkr47 | or will all windows be full screen always ? |
| 14:14.29 | xkr47 | or .. ? |
| 14:14.42 | aloril | 1) is *must*, 2) practically required (imagine using (x)emacs with N series without external keyboard (they do support external foldable bluetoot on so its possible)) |
| 14:15.07 | aloril | 3) is nice thing to have, 4) makes it 'infinitely' extentable |
| 14:15.36 | koen | but does it have an FPGA? |
| 14:15.43 | aloril | I think they are fullscreen, I recall some mailing list mail saying that |
| 14:15.59 | aloril | koen: umm.. are there USB FPGA available? ;-) |
| 14:16.14 | mjr | it uses the matchbox window manager I think. Which means fullscreen windows, basically. |
| 14:17.41 | Stephmw | koen: I still want that 1khp diesel turbine, the Neo is useless without it |
| 14:17.43 | aloril | http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2006-November/000376.html seems relevant mail |
| 14:18.43 | timtimred | and a device that charges it by kinetic energy |
| 14:18.56 | koen | mickeyl: any new ideas on the infoprints? |
| 14:19.29 | mickeyl | not yet. as soon as I'm working on the final screen (which starts tonite), i'm going to play around with some ideas |
| 14:19.51 | mickeyl | finishing Matchbox Applet abstraction atm. |
| 14:19.58 | mjr | timtimred, along with a buzzer alarm it could power itself indefinitely! |
| 14:22.49 | aloril | antitheft: ssh into phone, turn "somebody stole this" -mode on: ie.. make it appear like stock neo phone with empty addressbook, etc.. full functionalty as it would be as bought from 'shop' |
| 14:23.09 | aloril | but.. send position always and never actually power off, just pretend being powered off |
| 14:23.21 | mjr | aloril, things like that have been talked about :) |
| 14:23.22 | aloril | then call 112 / 911 and tell coordinates |
| 14:23.36 | mjr | should be doable to some extent |
| 14:23.40 | aloril | yes, but has somebody talked about having live ssh access to stolen phone? ;-) |
| 14:24.02 | aloril | so you can see realtime what is actually happening (even look at current screen) |
| 14:24.31 | aloril | and listen to what is talked (turn micrphone on and send stuff ..) |
| 14:24.37 | mjr | actually that was mentioned on the channel, but I don't think "make it look like brand-new" was mentioned |
| 14:25.10 | aloril | yeah, you want it to be used so that it stays on (and position tracking working) |
| 14:25.21 | mjr | of course the ssh-in needs the phone to connect to the GPRS network and report its IP somewhere, perhaps set up a predetermined tunnel if behind NAT |
| 14:26.46 | mjr | what I was thinking, instead of the ssh-in, is that one would have a security configuration page on the web somewhere, and the phone would periodically check if it's changed |
| 14:27.20 | mjr | and you could set things like "store-and-forward 15 first seconds of each phonecall" and "gimme locations every 5 minutes" and stuff there |
| 14:27.21 | aloril | and then send somewhere predefined location history, etc.. |
| 14:27.42 | aloril | it could keep location history always for several days |
| 14:28.41 | aloril | hmm.. have you seen this idea? have bluetooth device in you: |
| 14:28.54 | aloril | if phone is separated from it -> antitheft mode |
| 14:29.28 | aloril | s/in you/on you/ |
| 14:30.12 | aloril | (in addition to "security configuration page") |
| 14:30.13 | *** join/#openmoko Blain (n=DemonBob@ns1000.ntgdc.com) |
| 14:31.00 | mjr | I think that's come up in my private conversations before the whole openmoko thing, but yes, nice idea for the security conscious (assuming bt on the phone) |
| 14:31.43 | mjr | would allow for immediate mock pristinization of the phone |
| 14:31.54 | mjr | and stuff |
| 14:32.12 | yacc | Well, actually, depending upon how exact the AGPS is, it could have an more important function: Phone locator => drained battery or silent ringing mode often induce the "hunt the phone" game. |
| 14:32.33 | yacc | Did I leave it in the car, or in the kitchen or upstairs? |
| 14:32.37 | mickeyl | heh, cool idea |
| 14:33.22 | mjr | (of course, overrides needed for when your bt "key" runs out of battery or gets lost, but that's easy...) |
| 14:33.24 | yacc | mickeyl: It depends how exact the AGPS works, ... |
| 14:33.38 | mickeyl | ya |
| 14:33.51 | aloril | well.. with security page you could turn noice on ;-) |
| 14:33.54 | yacc | But depending upon the local circumstances, it might be enough. |
| 14:33.59 | aloril | (+ see its position too) |
| 14:34.17 | aloril | and I guess with BT security device too |
| 14:36.28 | *** join/#openmoko jannic (n=jan@gasko.hitnet.RWTH-Aachen.DE) |
| 14:36.35 | yacc | aloril: That does not protect against the drained battery ;) |
| 14:36.50 | yacc | btw, will the phone have vibra call? |
| 14:37.10 | mjr | I think I saw vibra mention somewhere... Not sure. |
| 14:38.13 | mjr | doesn't matter much for me either, really |
| 14:38.29 | hrw|work | vibration is must have in cellphone |
| 14:38.44 | aloril | mailing list do mention vibra |
| 14:40.13 | mjr | hmm, reminds me, a deniable cryptofilesystem wouldn't suffer as much performance penalty on flash as it does on disk... ;] |
| 14:40.48 | aloril | yacc: bring usb charger with you always with enough spare AA rechargeable batteries so that drained battery doesn't happen ;-) |
| 14:42.33 | yacc | aloril: it happens to me quite often at home, because I forget to put the phone in the charger => and now I've got two levels of flat to search for a phone, plus two cars. |
| 14:42.54 | mjr | that just means you have too big of an apartment and too many cards |
| 14:42.56 | mjr | cars |
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| 14:43.36 | aloril | yacc: have charger beside your bed and put phone to it at every night |
| 14:44.20 | aloril | (and/or have usb charger always with you with enough spare batteries and keep it enough charged) |
| 14:44.54 | xkr47 | is there an usb connector directly on the phone or ? |
| 14:45.06 | mjr | the usb charging is nice; there are usb ports everywhere |
| 14:45.13 | mjr | xkr47, yes, dual role even |
| 14:45.31 | xkr47 | yeah I heard, just thought if it needed some external adapter like some digital cameras |
| 14:46.07 | mjr | (can work either as host or device, but it doesn't supply power to devices, so you need to power them from elsewhere) |
| 14:46.12 | xkr47 | does it autodetect the role or do you have to set it by software ? |
| 14:46.42 | mjr | dunno |
| 14:46.46 | xkr47 | "doh, then I can't light my mini christmas tree with my phone" |
| 14:47.34 | mjr | poor you |
| 14:47.49 | aloril | vibrator confirmed: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2006-November/000398.html ;-) |
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| 14:49.28 | mjr | yay, and with the gprs, you can use it for cybersex if it's controllable enough |
| 14:49.55 | yacc | aloril: I don't carry the phone with me inside the flat usually. ;) |
| 14:50.17 | yacc | aloril: Plus I do use it as an ebook reader, so it can lie almost everywhere. |
| 14:51.12 | aloril | yacc: in that case only "put it to charger before you go to sleep" -habit should help |
| 14:52.07 | yacc | aloril: It does not really help, because of a number of facts. As it happens, depending upon how long I work, I sleep sometimes downstairs not to disturb my wife ;) |
| 14:52.40 | yacc | aloril: Plus you always assume that I've got it on me. That's a false assumption :( |
| 14:55.26 | aloril | well put it to charger before going to sleep doesn't assume you have it with you, only that you can find it at that time (and get 2 chargers then if you sleep at 2 different places ;-) |
| 14:56.28 | yacc | aloril: Well, technically speaking it might shorten the time before the phone gets lost and refound, but that assumes that I'm fresh enough when I go to sleep ;) |
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| 14:58.57 | mjr | re: chargers, one needs an usb killer similar in spirit to this ethernet one: http://www.radio-active.net.au/blog/2005/04/ethernetKiller.jpg (google images couldn't find an usb version :( ) |
| 14:59.05 | yacc | Well, actually it might be just a useful application, to have a GPS path where the phone was all the time. Although it implies quite a bit of data protection concerns, so I would log it at best to my own private server. |
| 15:01.12 | mjr | yes |
| 15:02.14 | aloril | logging coordinates + camera (even completely separate one) -> coordinates for images (no doubt this has been said somewhere already) |
| 15:02.37 | mjr | at least I don't know where ;) |
| 15:02.43 | aloril | actually I recall even separate gadget for this |
| 15:03.09 | aloril | (in dpreview site by sony) |
| 15:03.45 | mjr | but yes, if you have a position log you could automatically even tag the images with location data according to timestamps |
| 15:04.15 | mjr | 2) ... 3) profit! |
| 15:04.56 | aloril | now instead of buying separate gadget from sony, it will be free ;-) |
| 15:05.05 | koen | except flickr is too stupid to read that tags |
| 15:05.07 | mjr | does it consume much power to maintain a constant position fix, btw? |
| 15:06.07 | mjr | not that familiar with gps thingies |
| 15:10.44 | aloril | I wonder if NTP daemon will be installed by default? (probably not) |
| 15:11.12 | mjr | wouldn't seem likely |
| 15:15.56 | aloril | mjr: probably good idea not to enable it by default |
| 15:17.28 | aloril | about bluetooth security device: it could be your watch |
| 15:18.08 | aloril | actually a 'bit' more smart watch and it could be 'terminal' for phone |
| 15:18.52 | hrw|work | or another cellphone |
| 15:19.41 | mjr | good idea! |
| 15:21.25 | yacc | mjr: I'm not sure if ntp (being timing sensitive UDP) would work to well with GPRS (which has latency from hell, and a NAT firewall on the path to the Internet). |
| 15:22.44 | mjr | well, the NAT isn't necessarily the case, though often |
| 15:22.54 | aloril | yacc: I guess 1s accuracy should still be possible? |
| 15:22.59 | mjr | and true that, you wouldn't get any insanely accurate data off of it |
| 15:23.30 | mjr | but if you just want the phone to show time to a few seconds, should be workable... |
| 15:27.33 | *** join/#openmoko mikesh (n=mikesh@x133.net.upc.cz) |
| 15:28.06 | mjr | (also if the phone does end up having bluetooth I'll have it on a quicker network connection often enough ;P ) |
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| 15:30.46 | mjr | 'cause in that case, hello nap on my laptop and workstation |
| 15:31.20 | yacc | aloril: technically, NTP should be able to handle the latency somehow, but UDP and NAT is not that funny. |
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| 16:24.18 | buz | hopefully the headphone out in the neo will be better than the one in the shuffle 2 |
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| 16:50.40 | amarsh04 | back later... |
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| 16:58.36 | ninHer | any scheduled date for the launch of the neo1973 ? |
| 16:58.43 | GoGi | :) |
| 16:58.52 | koen | see topic |
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| 17:44.27 | yacc | keon: Considering that we've already got January, it's a mite inprecise => when sitting in Australia, it's enough to say you are traveling to Europe, but when you are already in Europe, it's a little bit stupid to say so ;) |
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| 18:05.16 | GoGi | yacc: at least you know it's at most January 31th |
| 18:05.42 | GoGi | if you are in Europe and someone tells you some location is in europe, at least you know that it's not THAT far away |
| 18:06.30 | Stephmw | GoGi: Jan 31st, 23:59:59.99 |
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| 18:10.26 | GoGi | hm in that case BEFORE Feb 1st, 00:00:00.00 is more accurate :) |
| 18:11.48 | so_solid_moo | you forgot the timezone. I guess it would be 00:00-12h |
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| 19:10.08 | buz | feels goooood |
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| 20:18.04 | xorAxAx | 20:57:54 -!- Irssi: New peak in #openmoko@freenode : 89 |
| 20:18.15 | xkr47 | ;) |
| 20:26.57 | LaF0rge | Bus 1 Device 2: ID 0a12:0001 Cambridge Silicon Radio, Ltd Bluetooth Dongle (HCI mode) |
| 20:27.14 | koen | :D |
| 20:27.18 | koen | ~hail LaF0rge |
| 20:27.21 | apt | ACTION bows down to LaF0rge and chants, "I'M NOT WORTHY!!" |
| 20:27.34 | LaF0rge | oops ;) |
| 20:28.29 | WillySilly2 | omg bluetooth |
| 20:29.17 | koen | OMG PONIES! |
| 20:29.58 | timtimred | phonies? |
| 20:30.57 | hrw | LaF0rge: using external hub? |
| 20:31.55 | Stephmw | LaF0rge: oh dear, now you've done it - you've given them hope :) |
| 20:32.21 | hrw | Stephmw: by using external hub I can connect many usb devices... |
| 20:32.41 | koen | usb aquarium |
| 20:32.45 | Stephmw | hrw: afaik the internal BT is connected via usb too (on the internal interface) |
| 20:33.04 | Stephmw | hrw: so as long as one driver works... |
| 20:34.54 | hrw | Stephmw: getting usb host working on most of arm SoC is doable. |
| 20:35.10 | greentux_alt | koen: so the phone is not longer doomed :( |
| 20:35.37 | hrw | Stephmw: but as long as there is no info 'this BT is internal' then I will still wait |
| 20:35.45 | Stephmw | hrw: of course |
| 20:36.08 | hrw | Stephmw: I can connect dvd/rw to my palmtops, few BT sticks, pendrives, mouse and keyboard |
| 20:36.17 | hrw | Stephmw: but they will still be external |
| 20:38.42 | *** join/#openmoko Laibsch (n=Laibsch@R77c0.r.ppp-pool.de) |
| 20:48.40 | mjr | 14:28 * LaF0rge has one five prototypes with bluetooth here ;) |
| 20:49.01 | mjr | So it probably is internal. But still doesn't mean the production machine has it, so chill. |
| 20:51.56 | Stephmw | five protos? so... he gets to throw them away if the flash fails? :) |
| 20:52.32 | hrw | Stephmw: atleast 2 misc hardware versions |
| 20:52.55 | stefan_schmidt | Stephmw: 5 protos for every hardware revision. Should be normal. |
| 20:54.26 | stefan_schmidt | heh |
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| 20:55.31 | cjb | omg bluetooth! |
| 20:56.13 | mjr | what, you psychic? |
| 20:56.56 | cjb | no, I just read http://dominion.kabel.utwente.nl/koen/cms/geek-news |
| 20:57.35 | Stephmw | haha |
| 20:57.42 | mjr | yes, LaF0rge here has an engineering sample with Bluetooth. |
| 20:58.04 | mjr | This does not equal that the production model will surely have it |
| 20:58.16 | cjb | Ah. |
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| 20:58.36 | mjr | (though I must admit I'm having a hard time not letting that get my hopes up ;) |
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| 21:36.52 | buz | so we need the v8 no more? |
| 21:37.16 | mjr | v8? |
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| 21:40.45 | *** join/#openmoko matsch (n=matsch@dyndsl-085-016-037-168.ewe-ip-backbone.de) |
| 21:40.57 | buz | you know without the v8 the phone is doomed |
| 21:41.56 | koen | HEMI or diesel? |
| 21:42.12 | buz | tooth |
| 21:42.20 | Stephmw | disel of course - and it's the V12 - V8 doesn't have enough grunt |
| 21:42.32 | koen | v12 or w12? |
| 21:42.39 | koen | with our without tiptronic? |
| 21:42.58 | CM | A fpga will fix that.. ;) |
| 21:43.14 | koen | the neo should have a CAN bus |
| 21:43.17 | mjr | oh, _that_ v8 |
| 21:43.26 | koen | that way it can monitor the engine |
| 21:43.27 | buz | yeah that one |
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| 21:45.23 | mjr | I think you could implement CAN with an FPGA |
| 21:45.54 | koen | no, with 2 FPGAs! |
| 21:46.04 | koen | or one fpga that emulates another fpga |
| 21:46.09 | buz | maybe we can substitute a 8 core sparc niagara for the v8? |
| 21:46.14 | buz | or possibly a cell |
| 21:46.25 | mjr | pfft, we could emulate a niagara on an fpga |
| 21:46.41 | buz | or in software even |
| 21:46.47 | buz | tho that might be against regulations |
| 21:47.01 | mjr | and then when you need CAN, we on-demand-reprogram the fgpa into a CAN bus interface and back again after the CAN activity burst is over |
| 21:47.21 | CM | Anyone else guessing we might se some more about the Neo at the CES 8-11th? |
| 21:47.37 | buz | somehow the neo doesnt really fit the CES |
| 21:47.52 | mjr | yeah, what with the v8, it's too big |
| 21:47.57 | LaF0rge | you don't want CAN but that standard vendor-independent diagnostic interface |
| 21:53.14 | xorAxAx | umm, niagara on a fpga? not really :) |
| 21:55.38 | mjr | xorAxAx, silence, fpgas can do anything |
| 22:00.06 | buz | even when they are just connected to power, no i/o |
| 22:01.36 | mjr | in that case they're doing _everything_ at once |
| 22:01.40 | mjr | you just don't see it happening |
| 22:01.55 | buz | point |
| 22:02.00 | buz | is the motofone shipping already? |
| 22:02.15 | buz | a quasi disposable phone with 400h standby could have uses |
| 22:03.25 | buz | well considering i can get a sagem (duuuh) phone with 10? credit for 25? here the motofone would have to be reeaaally cheap |
| 22:03.57 | buz | besides with the neo you can just encrypt the whole bloody device |
| 22:04.01 | buz | much safer than two phones |
| 22:05.15 | Stephmw | if adulterers are in need of crypto, they have bigger problems ;-) |
| 22:05.25 | Stephmw | ... or they live in Saudi Arabia... |
| 22:05.54 | buz | ... or their wife is just a really furious one ... |
| 22:06.20 | mjr | or are the president of a fundamentalist christian nation |
| 22:06.23 | mjr | oh, wait |
| 22:06.38 | buz | no problem, even lying about it to congress is fine |
| 22:06.49 | Stephmw | mjr: now, now, you can't say things like that until he signs the declaration of war on Russia over allofmp3.com |
| 22:07.17 | Stephmw | mjr: gotta keep the RIAA sweet, dontchaknow |
| 22:07.37 | buz | because as we all know, the riaa does important things to the betterment of mankind |
| 22:08.00 | mjr | what would the world be without spice girls |
| 22:08.01 | buz | would be a pity to see britney starve, after all |
| 22:10.45 | mjr | (Oh wait, spice girls doesn't exist anymore! I've got no reason to live! Where's my kayak?) |
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| 22:11.05 | *** join/#openmoko darmou (n=darmou@ppp194-244.lns3.mel4.internode.on.net) |
| 22:11.33 | CM | mjr: Actually I've heard a rumor they might do a comback! Rejoice! :P |
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| 22:13.46 | yacc | buz: you just don't understand why taking money for the endusers and from the artists is clearly benefitting the artists? |
| 22:14.13 | buz | well it's obviously benefitting the con-artists that engineered the whole scheme |
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| 22:25.44 | yacc | buz: But they aren't conartists. They've got a nice lobbying effort, so they are quite legal ;) |
| 22:26.02 | buz | obviously they conned you into thinking bribing politicians is ok if only you call it lobbying |
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