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| 08:10.25 | aloril | I wonder if external USB disk would be usable? (they have their own power source, so that should not be problem) |
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| 10:10.42 | mjr | aloril, one would imagine that a model with its own power source would be usable... |
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| 11:04.07 | mickey|zzZZzz | aloril: yes, that should work |
| 11:07.17 | koen | mickey|zzZZzz: good morning! |
| 11:16.11 | mickeyl | morning |
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| 13:08.44 | [g2] | any java guys see the "phoneME" Sun GPL v2 release ? It's supposed to build for ARM |
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| 13:14.38 | mickeyl | interesting |
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| 13:32.40 | mjr | [g2], just noticed it; a bit unexpected for the ME to go first, but hey, not complaining what with the moko... |
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| 13:34.50 | [g2] | mickeyl, as an old-school embedded guy, I must admit that my general leaning on Java on phones was (Java is for wussies). But Google's gmm was a serious dent to that opinion |
| 13:36.13 | [g2] | so my latest take, is that combine with the GPLv2 release is that Java will have some legs for many little apps |
| 13:37.56 | mickeyl | well, as long as people want to see it, they now have the foundation to make it happen |
| 13:38.26 | mickeyl | personally, i don't care much about Java, but that's because I'm a C++ evangelist ;) |
| 13:41.55 | mjr | Java is nice, but not all it's cracked up to be. Still, good to have that foundation you mentioned; there is a lot of Java stuff out there |
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| 13:59.07 | koen | less talk, more .bb files |
| 13:59.15 | koen | (about java) |
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| 14:36.32 | koen | http://www.openembedded.org/~koen/java/ |
| 14:36.35 | koen | now go play :) |
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| 14:38.31 | marcb4242 | koen: how big is the resulting ipk? |
| 14:38.40 | koen | it doesn't build |
| 14:38.44 | koen | yet |
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| 14:50.27 | marcb4242 | is there information available if openmoko will allow for rotating the screen? |
| 14:52.06 | koen | the screen is fixed inside the casing |
| 14:53.35 | koen | marcb4242: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2006-December/000884.html |
| 14:53.54 | xorAxAx | stupid answer :) |
| 14:55.01 | marcb4242 | stupid question :) |
| 14:55.28 | koen | standard answer "It's open, so you can do anything you want" |
| 14:56.38 | xorAxAx | hehe |
| 14:56.41 | marcb4242 | for sure, but my day has only 24h. but I'll spend as many as possible of them for developing for the neo/openmoko |
| 14:57.05 | koen | ~kill phoneme buildsystem |
| 14:57.07 | apt | ACTION shoots a super-inverse photon gun at phoneme buildsystem |
| 14:57.15 | koen | apt: botsnack |
| 14:57.15 | apt | aw, gee, koen |
| 14:57.37 | xorAxAx | ~botsnack |
| 14:57.37 | apt | xorAxAx: aw, gee |
| 14:58.01 | koen | I hope that will silence all java script kiddies |
| 14:58.56 | timtimred | shh, java has to me taken seriously!!!! :D |
| 14:59.32 | timtimred | i mean, al those massive enterprise apps that use it cant suck TOO much when they lock a 16GB process to collect garbage |
| 14:59.39 | marcb4242 | I prefer native apps |
| 14:59.55 | koen | native apps are the only sane option for a phone |
| 14:59.59 | timtimred | not that im bitter or anything |
| 15:00.00 | koen | but |
| 15:00.06 | koen | OMG MIDP!!!! LOL |
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| 15:01.28 | marcb4242 | until 30secs ago I didn't even know what MIDPs are |
| 15:01.57 | timtimred | mobile java has been to sucessful to be ignored !!! |
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| 15:02.08 | timtimred | im glad its going in to the openmoko project |
| 15:02.21 | timtimred | :D |
| 15:02.40 | marcb4242 | what I mind wrt java is all that enterprisey-ness. their website sucks from all the marketing speak |
| 15:03.01 | marcb4242 | one doesn't find any sh*t there |
| 15:04.08 | koen | the "write your one GNUmakefile" approach scares of most script kiddies |
| 15:05.24 | marcb4242 | somewhat true. the barrier to get the first stuff done is a lot higher. |
| 15:05.57 | marcb4242 | but once one starts to *understand* things all the OSS stuff is so much more powerful |
| 15:06.54 | timtimred | the sun site is okay once you are used to it |
| 15:06.55 | marcb4242 | compare nokia paying every year 100M$ to symbian for the os licenses to the money spent by FIC for openmoko :-p |
| 15:07.48 | koen | marcb4242: once you understand the cdc buildsystem you will be batshit insane |
| 15:09.03 | marcb4242 | koen: CDC as in RFID,CDC/CLDC,MIDP,LDAP,XML,SOAP? |
| 15:09.08 | marcb4242 | :-p |
| 15:09.18 | koen | yep |
| 15:09.29 | mjr | center for disease control, you silly |
| 15:10.40 | marcb4242 | it's already telling if google spits out an acronym in such a neighborhood - very, very enterprisey... lol |
| 15:11.56 | marcb4242 | koen: and you wonder that you get "batshit insane"? how else could engineers be hold hostage^Wkept^W live in cubicles? |
| 15:13.37 | timtimred | with evil contracts... |
| 15:14.33 | marcb4242 | timtimred: how did you get used to: "Java™ Platform, Micro Edition (Java ME) is the most ubiquitous application platform for mobile devices across the globe. It provides a robust, flexible environment for applications running on a broad range of other embedded devices, such as mobile phones, PDAs, TV set-top boxes, and printers. The Java ME platform includes flexible user interfaces, a robust security model, a broad range of built-in |
| 15:14.49 | marcb4242 | I get dizzy from reading stuff like that |
| 15:15.18 | timtimred | you dont read that crap you click past it |
| 15:16.23 | marcb4242 | I bet they used the dilbert mission statement generator for that.. |
| 15:16.40 | timtimred | im at the support end of java anyhoo |
| 15:17.48 | timtimred | i dont write any |
| 15:18.14 | marcb4242 | Openmoko interactively coordinates cost effective methods of empowerment in order that it may authoritatively supply unique opportunities. |
| 15:18.55 | marcb4242 | http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/games/career/bin/ms.cgi |
| 15:19.01 | koen | cldc building requires setting mandatory env vars to mandatory values |
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| 15:27.35 | koen | if FOO *must* be set to 'bar', why do I have to set it? |
| 15:33.40 | jannic | koen: it's a test if you actually read the documentation *g* |
| 15:33.54 | koen | I guess so :) |
| 15:35.00 | CM | Came to think of something.. What about a flight mode? |
| 15:35.04 | CM | Hope there' |
| 15:35.18 | CM | s a way to power on without all radio things on |
| 15:36.19 | CM | Of course, but there's no logic in airplane security anyway any more |
| 15:36.24 | koen | airlines provide wifi and hand out mediaplayer, so why can't I turn in my phone? |
| 15:36.32 | koen | turn on* |
| 15:36.38 | CM | Couldn't even take a half-full bottle of water with me yesterday |
| 15:36.52 | CM | But I did have a scissor in my pocket, and they didn't mind that |
| 15:36.54 | CM | Morons |
| 15:37.17 | koen | the tax-free bomb piece was priceless |
| 15:37.23 | CM | Hehe |
| 15:38.57 | CM | I really hope the Neo will be possible to order soon.. That it will be available on schedule |
| 15:42.01 | buz | MIDP flexible? i want some of what they are smoking |
| 15:42.50 | buz | actually you can now use cellphones on emirates flight |
| 15:42.57 | buz | not that people didnt use them before |
| 15:53.44 | CM | I like midp, easy to get some simple things up |
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| 15:54.18 | ronny | hi |
| 15:54.41 | ronny | will the phone have a python interpreter ? |
| 15:55.11 | koen | not by default |
| 15:55.24 | koen | but since it's open you can put python on it |
| 15:55.55 | ronny | are there any python sdk's in planing ? |
| 15:56.18 | koen | you mean 'vi'? |
| 15:56.22 | koen | or 'emacs'? |
| 15:57.03 | ronny | i meant python libs for accessing the phone functions |
| 15:59.21 | marcb4242 | ronny: most likely in the beginning only C-API |
| 16:00.57 | ronny | hmm |
| 16:01.13 | ronny | are there any aviable distributor lists ? |
| 16:03.12 | marcb4242 | ronny: rumour go that mickeyl likes python... |
| 16:04.28 | ronny | sounds good |
| 16:04.31 | timtimred | hissssss |
| 16:04.31 | marcb4242 | ~emacs |
| 16:04.32 | apt | well, emacs is as useless as vim if you don't wanna learn it |
| 16:05.20 | ronny | well - and both are useless on a cellphone ;P |
| 16:05.53 | marcb4242 | ronny: how else to you want to write a text? |
| 16:06.33 | ronny | well - on a cellphone i will most likely only write small text messages - so a small and simple ui will be enough |
| 16:07.57 | marcb4242 | I can only speak for vi as the emacs-operating system still lacks a decent editor - but vi *really* has a small and simple ui :) |
| 16:07.59 | ronny | casue emacs and vim are just tools for developing - they make no sense on my cellphone, but on my laptop for developing vim is doing a good job |
| 16:09.19 | ronny | i dont want to have a vim for writing a sms |
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| 16:11.03 | marcb4242 | the ui of the phone will bring more than a full size black terminal :) - there are plenty of text widgets out there. |
| 16:11.49 | ronny | btw - is there some kind os simulator ? |
| 16:11.52 | ronny | *of |
| 16:12.14 | marcb4242 | qemu |
| 16:12.33 | koen | gnu |
| 16:12.38 | koen | Xoo |
| 16:13.06 | ronny | its possible to simulate the phone with qemu ? |
| 16:13.22 | koen | define 'phone' |
| 16:13.36 | ronny | OpenMoko |
| 16:13.43 | ronny | thehardware for it |
| 16:13.50 | koen | openmoko is a gui framework |
| 16:13.59 | ronny | only a gui framework ? |
| 16:14.24 | marcb4242 | actually I'd call it distribution |
| 16:14.43 | marcb4242 | but that's partially a question of definition |
| 16:14.57 | koen | marcb4242: yeah, FIC goes the maemo road by overloading the *moko namespace |
| 16:15.01 | ronny | so let me specify more - any simulation for openmoko on a FIC Neo1973 Smartphone |
| 16:15.12 | koen | ronny: X00 |
| 16:15.14 | koen | ehm |
| 16:15.15 | koen | Xoo |
| 16:16.00 | marcb4242 | my answer still is qemu ;) |
| 16:16.12 | ronny | thats not an emulator thats a ui for xnest |
| 16:16.19 | koen | and? |
| 16:16.31 | koen | you can run openmoko 'inside' xoo |
| 16:16.35 | koen | what more do you want? |
| 16:16.44 | ronny | well - it will be intresting to take a look on how my new phone will be usable |
| 16:16.58 | koen | which you can do with xoo |
| 16:17.17 | koen | which is what FIC uses as well |
| 16:17.48 | marcb4242 | what a huge brick to see it on a 96dpi screen |
| 16:19.23 | ronny | where could i get the sources ? |
| 16:19.48 | koen | openmoko.org |
| 16:19.53 | marcb4242 | koen: regarding overloading the namespace: what would you call the distribution then? like OE-based or something? |
| 16:20.26 | koen | marcb4242: it's OE-based, but I'd call it moko-linux or something |
| 16:20.30 | koen | moko-dist |
| 16:21.07 | ronny | koen: it tells me to go to the .com site, and the .com site has no useful information - so mind to tell me a svn/bzr repo, or a tarball url ? |
| 16:21.43 | koen | bzr? |
| 16:21.45 | koen | ewwww |
| 16:22.03 | koen | svn is at svn.openmoko.org |
| 16:22.38 | ronny | koen: well - bzr is only nice if its compared to svn/cvs ;P |
| 16:23.12 | ronny | hmm - svn is access-restricted |
| 16:23.28 | timtimred | mokix :D |
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| 16:45.21 | aloril | USB charging is great, with it can have virtually unlimited amount of power, just stock enough of AA batteries: http://www.ladyada.net/make/mintyboost/ |
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| 17:01.31 | marcb4242 | aloril: nice casing :) |
| 17:05.17 | aloril | hmm.. buy solar charger for NiMH AA batteries (I assume these exists) and you can go for months ;-) |
| 17:16.21 | *** join/#openmoko koen (n=koen@dominion.kabel.utwente.nl) |
| 17:16.43 | noidd | ello ello ello |
| 17:16.56 | aloril | (like this: http://www.steves-digicams.com/icp_solar.html ) |
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| 18:23.20 | mickeyl | Let's call the framework MFX |
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| 18:23.20 | mickeyl | or MAF |
| 18:23.21 | koen | MVP |
| 18:23.21 | mickeyl | or openmoko-libs |
| 18:23.21 | mickeyl | nah, _not_ MVP |
| 18:23.44 | koen | openmoko-libs openmoko-gui openmoko-pim? |
| 18:23.53 | mickeyl | openmoko-libs contains libmoko* |
| 18:24.02 | mickeyl | * being core, ui, net, pim |
| 18:24.16 | koen | mickeyl: not everyone spent the last 3 years debating the finer points of frameworks and distros :) |
| 18:24.22 | mickeyl | true |
| 18:24.40 | mickeyl | i'll probably just make it always explicit |
| 18:24.43 | mickeyl | OpenMoko application framework |
| 18:24.48 | mickeyl | OpenMoko Linux distribution |
| 18:24.54 | mickeyl | etc. |
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| 18:29.20 | willr | what is openalchemy? |
| 18:29.28 | LaF0rge | hi mickeyl! |
| 18:29.34 | mickeyl | hey LaF0rge |
| 18:29.43 | LaF0rge | willr: http://openalchemy.org/ ; |
| 18:31.02 | LaF0rge | koen: I would love to contribute if I had the time. I'm still fighting some issue building it |
| 18:32.50 | koen | LaF0rge: that's to be expected with the '6 tarballs to rule them all' approach |
| 18:32.50 | LaF0rge | koen: my strategy was: first verify that it builds natively on the host, then check everything into a svn server, then create bb rules/recipes for individual libs/apps based on svn-checkout |
| 18:32.51 | LaF0rge | koen: yes, they are under extreme time constraints at picopeta. however, I'll help them in 2007 cleaning up that situation |
| 18:32.58 | LaF0rge | If someone creates a clean svn tree, I'm sure they will accept this and host it on their machine (or point svn.openalchemy.org to e.g. one of my servers) |
| 18:33.11 | LaF0rge | they actually wanted to do that but didn't get around doing it |
| 18:33.32 | LaF0rge | koen: if you run into any problems, just mail to the openalchemy-general list, I'll push it to the right people if there is no response |
| 18:35.15 | koen | I have been wasting time to get phoneme (advanced and feature) to build in OE |
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| 18:37.21 | koen | LaF0rge: any plans on attending fosdem? |
| 18:40.39 | LaF0rge | koen: Seems like I'm joining Lennert Buytenheks' boycott of FOSDEM |
| 18:41.03 | LaF0rge | putting a guy in the programme committe who spreads nothing but FUD about embedded linux development and gpl-violations.org is not exactly very friendly |
| 18:41.11 | koen | nope |
| 18:41.17 | koen | hmmm |
| 18:41.45 | LaF0rge | I have heared people quote that guy with stuff like "Harald welte is sueing companies for the fun of it" |
| 18:41.51 | koen | lennert is my beer sponser, so that presents some problems ;) |
| 18:42.00 | mickeyl | too bad. FOSDEM is always a nice experience. |
| 18:42.36 | mickeyl | bbl |
| 18:43.03 | LaF0rge | mickely: I was there some time ago. |
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| 19:05.38 | marcb4242 | makes me wonder whether the guy spreading fud works for sony, nokia, essenium or montavista? |
| 19:12.45 | koen | mvista |
| 19:13.45 | koen | it's actually quite a nice guy (had dinner with him two weeks ago), but he's known for making such statements |
| 19:13.57 | koen | which are very offensive |
| 19:20.22 | koen | what's the time in taipeh? |
| 19:22.19 | thedaniel | google says 3:22am |
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| 19:30.28 | greentux_alt2 | cant find program committe on fosdem website... |
| 19:32.21 | koen | and more specifically libsqlfs inside |
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| 19:49.00 | [g2] | koen what is that ? |
| 19:50.02 | [g2] | http://www.access-company.com/news/press/Current/122106_hiker.html |
| 19:52.24 | thedaniel | man, that press release gets the prize for buzzword density |
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| 19:54.49 | koen | [g2]: palms' Access Linux Platform stuff |
| 19:55.11 | [g2] | koen yeah that's what it seems like |
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| 20:04.02 | *** topic/#openmoko is OpenMoko Developer Lounge | http://www.openmoko.com | http://lists.openmoko.org | ETA: January 2007 |
| 20:35.12 | greentux_alt2 | every day an open source framework... :) |
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| 23:53.05 | oppiz | hey |