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| 13:58.39 | buz | now thats very useful |
| 13:58.45 | buz | use a fpga to emulate a cpu and run stuff on it |
| 13:59.10 | buz | very economic |
| 13:59.28 | koen | the LION softcore would be neat for that |
| 13:59.43 | buz | well there are cores for that |
| 13:59.45 | koen | put it takes a pretty huge fpga to get ~100 MIPS out of it |
| 13:59.47 | buz | i just dont see the point in a phone |
| 14:00.24 | buz | throw in a faster main cpu if anything |
| 14:00.27 | buz | SC244X |
| 14:01.25 | koen | s3c24a0 even :) |
| 14:02.03 | buz | maybe TI dual core omaps |
| 14:02.25 | buz | and possible even a mobile graphics accelerator |
| 14:02.30 | koen | I'd rather have an i.xm31 |
| 14:02.43 | koen | preferably the new version |
| 14:03.48 | buz | yeah |
| 14:03.53 | buz | vga hardware mpeg4 encoder |
| 14:04.21 | buz | pcmcia and ata interface |
| 14:04.24 | buz | 2 sd |
| 14:05.00 | koen | the people on the ml want http://axon.nl/?page=product_info&lbar=products&cat_id=3 |
| 14:05.09 | koen | arm cpu + fpga |
| 14:05.21 | koen | and 18 of those in a 19" case |
| 14:05.45 | buz | ehehe maybe they can make one into a backpack |
| 14:06.40 | buz | that freescale chip looks extremely tasty ;) |
| 14:07.33 | aevin | buz: yes, a GPU from ARM/Falanx :) but that wouldnt be a main stream "phone" anymore, but more a PMP/gaming device. |
| 14:08.05 | koen | or use the dsm-02 from 3dlabs |
| 14:08.07 | buz | the high end pocketpc devices all come with GPU |
| 14:08.12 | koen | dual core with 24 FPUs |
| 14:08.14 | koen | hey mickeyl |
| 14:08.19 | hrw|work | wb mickeyl |
| 14:08.25 | mickeyl | you guys planning Neov8 ? |
| 14:08.29 | mickeyl | :D |
| 14:10.07 | buz | a pcmcia slot addon would be ultra neat |
| 14:10.39 | hrw|work | buz: cf is not enough? |
| 14:10.45 | buz | cf would be plenty |
| 14:11.01 | buz | afaik there are wifi + flash combo cf cards |
| 14:11.31 | buz | hell 2 sd slots would be plenty |
| 14:11.39 | buz | but i'd prefer cf |
| 14:11.46 | hrw|work | buz: they are but not work as two functions |
| 14:11.48 | buz | thats about as open as it comes |
| 14:12.00 | buz | they dont work as both at the same time? |
| 14:12.03 | buz | dooh |
| 14:12.47 | buz | Eye-Fi is tackling the problem from a different perspective. They?re building wifi directly into the flash storage. Their first product will be a 1GB SD card with built in Wifi. For about the same price as a 1 GB flash card sells for today - $100. |
| 14:13.06 | koen | heh |
| 14:13.07 | koen | $100 |
| 14:13.17 | koen | 1gb sd has $17 last I checked |
| 14:13.26 | koen | s/has/was/ |
| 14:13.28 | buz | well thats probably an old blg posting |
| 14:13.38 | buz | still i'd pay 100$ for that |
| 14:13.48 | buz | post is from april |
| 14:14.18 | buz | how in hell that would ever work in a digicam i dont understand though |
| 14:15.18 | buz | Eye-Film is still in development. We will announce details of our beta trial in Q3 200 |
| 14:15.21 | buz | it's vaporware |
| 14:17.14 | buz | oh beta is actually happening right now |
| 14:17.56 | buz | v2 needs good old SD :) |
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| 14:57.54 | aevin | the Neo name isn't the final market name, is it? |
| 14:58.03 | aevin | just a code name, right? |
| 15:05.18 | CM | It's the name, and the only names allowed in the contact book is Mr Anderson and Mr Smith. ;) |
| 15:05.44 | hrw|work | CM: but Neo1973 is not banane... |
| 15:12.22 | mickeyl | Neo1973 is the final market name |
| 15:12.28 | mickeyl | the code name was GTA01 |
| 15:17.29 | CM | I have nothing against the name, but 1979 would have fit me better |
| 15:18.09 | koen | or some less OMG!!! matrix!!! name would have been better |
| 15:25.59 | [g2] | GTA01 LOL |
| 15:26.11 | [g2] | GTM01 :0 |
| 15:26.59 | [g2] | mickeyl can you speak about OE meta-data deployment for the Neo at all ? |
| 15:27.07 | mickeyl | sure |
| 15:27.10 | mickeyl | just ask |
| 15:27.26 | [g2] | what's the plan regarding the meta-data ? |
| 15:27.36 | [g2] | are you going to ship a cut down version ? |
| 15:28.05 | [g2] | are you going to partition sections ? |
| 15:28.05 | [g2] | tools/kernel/apps |
| 15:28.22 | [g2] | I'm guessing you've been very busy and haven't had a lot of time to think about it |
| 15:28.48 | mickeyl | that's right. general plan: upload everything into mainstream |
| 15:28.59 | mickeyl | i like the greenphone vmware sdk image |
| 15:29.04 | mickeyl | conceptually, at least |
| 15:29.29 | mickeyl | so we might want to upload something that guys can download to reproduce the build of the software version that ships in the images |
| 15:29.49 | mickeyl | sections will be partitioned |
| 15:29.56 | mickeyl | openmoko/foo |
| 15:29.57 | koen | SDK and OE metadata are two different things |
| 15:30.50 | mickeyl | I'm not sure whether cutting down is necessary |
| 15:31.17 | koen | just make sure bitbake 1.8.x is out before january |
| 15:31.25 | mickeyl | heh |
| 15:31.28 | mickeyl | as if i have influence about that |
| 15:31.35 | mickeyl | (other than the ncurses IPC stuff) |
| 15:31.49 | koen | sure, just send zecke some dutch snacks :) |
| 15:32.03 | koen | drat |
| 15:32.29 | koen | mickeyl: I'll be passing frankfurm AM real close tomorrow, but I won't have time to stop by :( |
| 15:32.41 | mickeyl | bummer |
| 15:34.56 | [g2] | well given that about 40 bb's builds a full cross toolchain and is less the 1% of the recipes it's a lot simpler to manage |
| 15:35.44 | koen | [g2]: using a cutdown version just asks for unnecessary divergence between OE and OM |
| 15:36.20 | [g2] | koen clearly NOT. How much of OE meta-data is "upstream" |
| 15:36.36 | [g2] | OE does a great job of managing the differences |
| 15:36.55 | [g2] | and OE will most likely always be "upstream" for OM |
| 15:37.09 | koen | if you give people a small tarball to play with instead of the complete repo, you have already lost |
| 15:38.11 | [g2] | what is lost ? |
| 15:38.41 | koen | you give "OE is too big and difficult" signal to potential developers |
| 15:39.06 | CM | How big is the whole repo? |
| 15:39.12 | [g2] | 128MB+ |
| 15:39.30 | [g2] | that's just the meta data |
| 15:39.31 | CM | Ok, but that's small :) |
| 15:39.33 | hrw|work | and how many recipes will get written just because there is no recipe in stripped version and no one looked into full OE before |
| 15:39.37 | koen | 150MB of text files |
| 15:40.04 | noidd | we wrote more code than Shakespear wrote sonnets :-P |
| 15:40.20 | koen | hrw|work: like people did for the OZ branch |
| 15:40.35 | koen | "I made a recipe for lua" "already in .dev" "oh, didn't look there" |
| 15:41.01 | mickeyl | we have two use cases here |
| 15:41.11 | CM | We're not talking gigabytes and for use as a dev environment I'd rather have too much code than too little when I need it. |
| 15:41.17 | [g2] | koen there are idiots and ppl that live by NIH everywhere. One can't avoid that |
| 15:41.39 | [g2] | the world is full of very intelligent ppl also that "do the right thing" |
| 15:41.41 | mickeyl | one is what i'd call the poweruser for whom the FIC1973 is just another OE-supported device that happens to have GSM (finally) |
| 15:42.02 | mickeyl | the other one is the linux-is-cool-i-can-customize-my-phone type of user |
| 15:42.17 | mickeyl | who doesn't need much more than a playground for rebuilding OpenMoko default distribution |
| 15:42.21 | mickeyl | + adding what he loves to |
| 15:42.23 | [g2] | mickeyl _exactly_... The first case is an "oe deveoper" |
| 15:42.32 | [g2] | the second is an "oe user" |
| 15:42.45 | [g2] | s/deveoper/developer/ |
| 15:42.58 | mickeyl | i agree. I don't like a stripped-down version, but we need to come up with a plan to make both types of users comfortable |
| 15:43.17 | koen | mickeyl: qemu image + MACHINE=native |
| 15:43.20 | mickeyl | s/users/use cases/ |
| 15:43.22 | [g2] | and users will probably out number at least 100 to 1 and probably 1000 to 1 |
| 15:44.04 | CM | mickeyl: and as you said, a simple vmware appliance with a sdk would be perfect for group 2 |
| 15:44.12 | mickeyl | CM: *nod* |
| 15:44.21 | [g2] | mickeyl it doesn't necessarily have to be a stripped down repo. It could simply be a snapshoted repo and allow something like rsync'ing |
| 15:44.28 | koen | an sdk lacks one HUGE thing: easy packaging |
| 15:44.32 | koen | just look at maemo |
| 15:44.52 | mickeyl | koen, this is why when I talk of an SDK-image |
| 15:44.54 | mickeyl | i really mean |
| 15:44.57 | mickeyl | SDK + build system |
| 15:45.01 | mickeyl | = SDK + OE |
| 15:45.33 | [g2] | mickeyl OE should built the SDK image |
| 15:45.50 | koen | mickeyl: have you seen the poky sdk stuff? |
| 15:46.10 | koen | mickeyl: it's a qemy-arm image with all -dev packages installed |
| 15:46.11 | mickeyl | koen: no time :/ |
| 15:46.22 | mickeyl | koen: something like that'd becool |
| 15:46.42 | koen | put OE + bitbake in there with machine=native and you get: |
| 15:46.46 | koen | a) easy sdk |
| 15:46.50 | koen | b) easy packaging |
| 15:47.55 | koen | where 'b)' is the most important thing for a community |
| 15:48.20 | [g2] | koen Ok. let's do this |
| 15:48.24 | mickeyl | koen: you don't like vmware? |
| 15:49.24 | koen | mickeyl: not for crosscompiling |
| 15:49.55 | CM | How hard is it to make a vmware appliance? Thinking of koens b) |
| 15:50.08 | koen | and a vmware image forces people onto a new desktop |
| 15:50.37 | koen | I use gnome for a reason, so why force me to use KDE to compile apps for the greenphone? |
| 15:50.40 | [g2] | koen: Ok here's the bounty throwdown |
| 15:50.49 | mickeyl | desktop is one point, but vmware is a nice support shield. think all those different environments |
| 15:51.43 | [g2] | $500 for an OE build that builds a chroots from within OE for x86 that includes all the tools to bitbake my 40 bb recipe toolchain for gcc 4.1.1 xscale and devio |
| 15:52.40 | [g2] | I've got the two files needed for the test case |
| 15:53.05 | [g2] | interested at all ? |
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| 15:57.16 | hrw|work | interesting |
| 15:57.26 | hrw|work | but not before january |
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| 15:58.19 | [g2] | hrw|work I'll either be done myself or have a good alternative long before jan. |
| 15:58.31 | hrw|work | sure |
| 15:58.53 | [g2] | personally, the Edgy debootstrap is better and easier |
| 15:59.06 | [g2] | but a self-hosted OE build would be cleaner |
| 15:59.42 | hrw|work | MACHINE=native bitbake task-native-sdk python slugos-native (and few others) |
| 16:00.10 | [g2] | and it'll easily be 6 months (probably never) that OE would catch up to the LiveCD/graphics card drivers supported by Ubuntu |
| 16:00.11 | hrw|work | ok need to go home |
| 16:00.32 | noidd | You don't need a vmware image |
| 16:00.42 | noidd | you could just operate within a chrooted environment |
| 16:00.45 | hrw|work | guy from cable has to came to give me net+voip |
| 16:00.49 | noidd | or even a loopbacked filesystem |
| 16:00.51 | hrw|work | cu later |
| 16:00.55 | [g2] | cheers |
| 16:00.58 | noidd | if you really wanted to go that route. |
| 16:01.33 | noidd | using vmware you have to copy data from your machine to the VM and back again |
| 16:01.49 | buz | use qemu to develop on arm directly ;) |
| 16:01.50 | noidd | at least with a chroot you can just copy it into the chrooted environment. |
| 16:02.13 | [g2] | buz qemu is the second layer |
| 16:02.13 | noidd | qemu runs native arm code? |
| 16:02.31 | [g2] | noidd yes qemu provides ARM system and userland |
| 16:02.40 | [g2] | LE |
| 16:02.49 | noidd | ah, that is shiny |
| 16:02.55 | noidd | that makes my life a whole lot easier. |
| 16:03.03 | [g2] | it's a good start if you run LE |
| 16:03.24 | [g2] | and openmoko runs LE |
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| 16:06.10 | koen | [g2]: BE as well |
| 16:06.44 | [g2] | koen BE support wasn't working very well a couple months ago. Hopefully it's fixed |
| 16:06.47 | koen | [g2]: so you essentially want MACHINE=qemux86 (exists) with openembedded-essential installed |
| 16:09.19 | noidd | I need to rebuild my dev environment |
| 16:09.37 | [g2] | koen I think more of an MACHINE=x86 and a simple rootfs / rootfs.tar |
| 16:10.02 | koen | that isn't chrootable, sadly |
| 16:10.14 | koen | I got a "kernel too old" message |
| 16:12.14 | noidd | could make it chrootable |
| 16:12.36 | noidd | I guess we could do all of the above as long as we automated the builds of the various dev environments |
| 16:12.51 | [g2] | noidd right you need a task-bootstrap functionality included |
| 16:13.01 | koen | with machine-qemux86 you get a qemu-able thing (probably vmware-able) image |
| 16:13.16 | [g2] | koen that's the point |
| 16:13.53 | [g2] | if ppl are smart enough the a be able to run qemu then they can already qemu a Ubuntu iso |
| 16:13.58 | noidd | is qemu capable of network connectivity? |
| 16:14.28 | [g2] | the second point, is that running natively removes all the emulation overhead |
| 16:15.33 | [g2] | emulation will certianly come into play at somepoint (especially for ARM) but for the native environment a chroot has many advantages |
| 16:16.11 | noidd | cos if it is I'm happy to put online a cluster of 10-20 emu systems for people to use |
| 16:16.16 | noidd | like the skiffclusters |
| 16:16.52 | koen | noidd: qemu supports networking, so nfsroot works |
| 16:17.53 | noidd | even with arm emulation? |
| 16:18.02 | noidd | man, there is an interesting project hiding in there |
| 16:19.15 | koen | noidd: o-hand even builds qemu-arm images with distcc present |
| 16:19.28 | koen | so you can make your own arm cluster with x86 hardware |
| 16:19.54 | noidd | that's what I was considering doing and making available |
| 16:20.09 | noidd | ie, actually provide the development hosts. |
| 16:20.24 | noidd | I have the hardware, bandwidth and Xen hypervisor available to do it. |
| 16:22.10 | noidd | going to grab some lunch |
| 16:22.12 | noidd | back in a while |
| 16:23.04 | [g2] | Ok nfs is a little slow at only 19.4MBs |
| 16:25.23 | koen | with jumboframes? |
| 16:27.03 | [g2] | koen nope |
| 16:27.11 | [g2] | koen that's without any tuning |
| 16:27.30 | [g2] | I was getting near 30MBs via scps |
| 16:28.07 | [g2] | it may be related to the volume as the scp returned about the same performance on a 1GB file |
| 16:28.11 | koen | about the same here |
| 16:28.26 | koen | from macbook pro -> server |
| 16:28.36 | koen | samba tops at ~24MB/s |
| 16:28.47 | koen | anyway |
| 16:28.59 | [g2] | cheers mate! |
| 16:29.10 | [g2] | enjoy! |
| 16:29.28 | [g2] | and thanks for the lively discussion |
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| 17:18.26 | dneary | ick bolsh |
| 17:19.54 | dneary | Sorry - slip of the "new channels get focus" |
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| 18:45.49 | buz | 24MB/s with samba? around here I top out with 3MB/s |
| 18:45.53 | buz | scp does 2,5times of that |
| 18:46.01 | buz | in 100mbit |
| 18:46.14 | buz | i figured something was wrong ;) |
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| 18:53.06 | [g2] | buz we're on gigE |
| 18:53.47 | [g2] | you can get 11MBs with 100Mbs Ethernet if your processor/disk/network is fast enough |
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| 21:35.43 | hrw | [g2]: ping? |
| 21:35.56 | [g2] | hrw pong |
| 21:36.36 | hrw | [g2]: x86 rootfs with stuff for running bitbake still wanted? |
| 21:37.16 | [g2] | hrw are you interested in the bounty ? |
| 21:37.36 | hrw | sounds good |
| 21:38.00 | hrw | define deadline time |
| 21:38.51 | [g2] | does '06 seem reasonable ? |
| 21:39.11 | hrw | '06 as 20060101? |
| 21:39.34 | [g2] | no by 20061231 somewhere in the world |
| 21:39.37 | hrw | 20070101 I meant |
| 21:39.44 | [g2] | yeah 20070101 |
| 21:39.54 | hrw | sounds doable |
| 21:41.21 | hrw | thats an option too |
| 21:42.05 | hrw | invoice needed? |
| 21:42.16 | [g2] | nope. |
| 21:42.58 | [g2] | it's a bounty, not a request for services/consulting |
| 21:43.38 | [g2] | I want to be able to check out a monoton repo, or have a reasonable small patch set |
| 21:43.38 | hrw | sure - wanted to know |
| 21:44.02 | [g2] | and bb foo-x86-rootfs |
| 21:44.11 | hrw | "bitbake openembedded-build-native-image"? |
| 21:44.19 | hrw | "bitbake openembedded-build-image" rather |
| 21:45.00 | [g2] | it could be a package or it could be a distro |
| 21:45.25 | hrw | I use angstrom-2007.1 as base distro |
| 21:45.29 | hrw | and it support x86 |
| 21:46.36 | [g2] | I think angstrom-2007.1 as a base distro would be fine |
| 21:46.44 | [g2] | I'll need to build it for x86 |
| 21:46.58 | hrw | and it will be. i686 |
| 21:47.26 | [g2] | I'm pretty sure I can live with that |
| 21:47.49 | [g2] | i686 supports AMD and Intel Duo core right ? |
| 21:47.53 | hrw | yes |
| 21:48.11 | [g2] | Ok... that's fine with me too |
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| 21:49.21 | hrw | cool |
| 21:50.05 | [g2] | paypal payment acceptable ? |
| 21:50.24 | hrw | paypal or moneybookers |
| 21:51.01 | hrw | preferred moneybookers - never used paypal account yet (they support Poland since october) |
| 21:51.35 | [g2] | I've never used moneybookers |
| 21:51.43 | hrw | ok |
| 21:51.45 | [g2] | but I've go a PP acct |
| 21:51.50 | [g2] | s/go/got/ |
| 21:54.12 | rwhitby | you guys want an independent judge of completion? |
| 21:54.51 | hrw | ok from me |
| 21:56.01 | rwhitby | (i.e. I would propose that when the task is finished, an independent third party types "bitbake openembedded-build-image", then chroots into it and builds something like SlugOS or Angstrom. |
| 21:57.00 | hrw | rwhitby: and build 'g2-recipe-pack' |
| 21:57.33 | hrw | 07 16:52 < [g2]> $500 for an OE build that builds a chroots from within OE for x86 that includes all the tools to bitbake my 40 bb recipe toolchain for gcc 4.1.1 xscale and devio |
| 21:57.44 | hrw | that was first version ;D |
| 21:57.56 | rwhitby | yup - in fact [g2] should put on the web page the exact commands he expects to type for the acceptance test :-) |
| 21:58.07 | hrw | yes |
| 21:58.22 | rwhitby | ($500 is big bucks, so you want to have these things in writing at the start :-) |
| 21:58.40 | hrw | exactly |
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| 21:59.29 | [g2] | Ok I'll try to update my web site tonight and kick-off the near global bounty |
| 22:00.03 | hrw | ok |
| 22:00.30 | [g2] | rwhitby has an advantage as it's daytime for him |
| 22:00.43 | hrw | 23:00 here |
| 22:00.45 | [g2] | he'll probably still be up |
| 22:01.51 | rwhitby | [g2]: is this going to be an open bounty, or is hrw signed up exclusively now ? (I'm not interested in claiming it, but hrw would probably want to know that before he begins work) |
| 22:02.25 | rwhitby | or is it a race and the first person to meet the acceptance criteria gets the cash? |
| 22:03.35 | [g2] | rwhitby it's an open bounty with a deadline by end-of-year 2006 |
| 22:10.29 | hrw | I go sleep - cu |
| 22:11.12 | [g2] | hrw you know my main website right ? |
| 22:11.24 | hrw | remind me |
| 22:11.37 | [g2] | http://www.giantshoulderinc.com |
| 22:11.49 | koen | myopengps.com :) |
| 22:11.58 | hrw | cu |
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