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| 00:57.22 | thedaniel | I note that early devices were to be shipped in mid-december to a select group of developers - does anyone know if these have or will soon go out? |
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| 01:09.28 | mickeyl | no idea, sorry |
| 01:09.31 | mickeyl | g'night |
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| 01:50.58 | cephdon__ | ok... how do I kick my other self? My computer disconnected and IRC seems to think I am still here.. |
| 01:51.13 | cephdon__ | i am not entirely sure that made sense... |
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| 09:51.18 | fredl | anybody know if the FIC Neo1973 is for sale in europe already? |
| 09:51.36 | mjr | no |
| 09:51.55 | fredl | launch date still Jan. 2007? |
| 09:51.57 | koen | well, the answer is "yes" |
| 09:52.07 | mjr | Release date is January |
| 09:52.17 | koen | we know that it isn't shipping |
| 09:52.25 | mjr | well yes |
| 09:52.28 | fredl | koen :-) |
| 09:52.37 | fredl | you Dutch koen? |
| 09:52.40 | koen | yep |
| 09:53.08 | fredl | cool. You know if any of the large carriers in .nl will sell the Neo in their package? |
| 09:54.03 | fredl | see, I have an appointment with an Orange Telecom representative since I'm looking for a mobile solution that will offer me what I need.... |
| 09:54.40 | fredl | what I need is a good phone obviously, Wifi and GPS aren't really optional. The Neo doesn't have Wifi, correct? |
| 09:55.14 | koen | no wifi |
| 09:55.48 | fredl | how involved with openmoko are you? |
| 09:56.02 | koen | I read the mailinglist |
| 09:56.09 | fredl | ah, utwente! |
| 09:56.31 | fredl | student or staff? |
| 09:56.44 | koen | student |
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| 09:57.20 | fredl | hmm. |
| 09:58.34 | fredl | so, how do openmoko and FIC relate? openmoko is a development framework, correct, and the Neo is a (the first?) real phone to adopt this platform, am I seeing it right that way? |
| 09:58.49 | hrw|work | yes |
| 09:59.03 | hrw|work | and FIC make Neo phone and pay for openmoko development |
| 09:59.07 | fredl | so is there any Dutch reseller already? |
| 09:59.45 | fredl | hmm, also utwente hrw? staff or student? :) |
| 09:59.57 | fredl | looks like an utwente party here, hehe |
| 10:00.03 | hrw|work | fredl: I only have account on this machine |
| 10:00.26 | fredl | ah I see. |
| 10:01.06 | fredl | so is there anybody on here by any chance who could talk business for FIC? |
| 10:01.33 | fredl | I just sent an email to sean@openmoko.com since he's mentioned in a press release.... |
| 10:02.44 | koen | sean should know |
| 10:02.53 | koen | he should get back from Japan tomorrow |
| 10:03.20 | fredl | he lives in CA from the looks of it? |
| 10:03.35 | koen | no, taiwan |
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| 10:04.09 | fredl | oh okay :) just noticed his 'address' is on the screenshots of the Neo on openmoko.com |
| 10:04.13 | lkcl_work | fredl: if you are an individual, and especially if you are a free software developer, you will be able to buy phones, direct, off of fic.com.tw web site, expected in january. |
| 10:04.28 | lkcl_work | sean is _horrendously_ swamped with email right now, as you might imagine. |
| 10:04.31 | fredl | lkcl_work, I'm a business. |
| 10:05.05 | fredl | lkcl_work, I'd like to find out if there are any Dutch resellers already and of possible get early access. |
| 10:05.31 | lkcl_work | fredl: cool. |
| 10:06.23 | fredl | I'm possibly even interested in pre-buying some Neo's to resell. You know if there's anybody who could tell me more besides Sean? |
| 10:06.25 | lkcl_work | ok. do you have an email address? email me at lkcl@lkcl.net, ok? |
| 10:07.03 | fredl | okay I'll send you an email, shall I cc Sean on that since I already sent him email? |
| 10:09.02 | lkcl_work | basically, FIC have made a decision, which may change, to use their existing infrastructure and worldwide offices, to distribute the phones, and they have made this decision based on the high level of interest in the neo1973 and openmoko. |
| 10:09.14 | lkcl_work | however, that of course may change. |
| 10:10.06 | fredl | okay, cool. Besides that I'm also a software developper and see a good business opportunity here. |
| 10:10.27 | fredl | BTW, you know if there are any plans by any chance to upgrade the Neo with Wifi? |
| 10:13.33 | lkcl_work | fredl: look me up on google. |
| 10:13.50 | lkcl_work | next version, dude :) |
| 10:14.45 | fredl | ah you use advogato? Cool, I used to be chatting with raph (the guy who built that) back in the days on #gimp :) |
| 10:15.08 | fredl | Dutch too, or just living in .nl? |
| 10:17.27 | lkcl_work | fredl: working here. trying to, anyway. 2nd day back after 2 month break. can't concentrate on _anything_! |
| 10:17.47 | fredl | LOL, so where you originally from? |
| 10:20.47 | lkcl_work | i'm from the uk. did you email me? |
| 10:20.53 | fredl | yeah |
| 10:22.43 | fredl | lkcl, I've also co-developped an opensource app called 'UserTracking' together with SURFnet, have you heard of them? |
| 10:23.05 | fredl | lkcl, this is also why I'm so interested in Wifi plans for the neo :) |
| 10:23.47 | fredl | lkcl, if you could motivate FIC to put 802.1x on the Neo I would become sooooo happy! :) |
| 10:24.31 | fredl | BTW, does anybody here know what happened with ImcoSys? |
| 10:25.00 | koen | fredl: 802.1x is easy: 'ipkg install wpa-suplicant' |
| 10:25.06 | lkcl_work | cool. we'll talk there, avoid cluttering the irc and logs, k? |
| 10:25.34 | fredl | talk where? |
| 10:25.59 | lkcl_work | it'll be an hour before your email passes my damn greylistd - PM me your email address - i won't be able to respond but i'll get it |
| 10:26.24 | greentux | fredl: forget the imcosys guys... hot air everywhere |
| 10:27.07 | fredl | greentux, yeah? I was in touch with the co. that'd import them here in .nl but they got kinda PO'ed with them after their launch was delayed and delayed and delayed. |
| 10:27.40 | fredl | oh well. |
| 10:28.01 | hrw|work | koen: it is easy when you have wifi... |
| 10:28.07 | greentux | fredl: if ypou goolge something about the people behind imcosys you will find interesting things... we had also contact but nothing to touch |
| 10:28.11 | fredl | koen - also EAP-TTLS? :) |
| 10:28.38 | fredl | greentux, hmm. alright. |
| 10:29.06 | buz | imcosys is a few km from here |
| 10:29.10 | buz | i NEVER saw one of their devices |
| 10:29.18 | buz | and they dont seem to care to sell them very much |
| 10:29.31 | fredl | that's so wierd... FUD? |
| 10:29.40 | buz | supposedly the thing is finished |
| 10:29.44 | buz | i should call ;) |
| 10:29.56 | koen | fredl: eap-ttls includes, so you can use eduroam |
| 10:29.56 | fredl | yeah call them! lemme know :-) |
| 10:30.44 | buz | its truly weird |
| 10:30.44 | fredl | koen - I have so far not been able to get eduroam to work on my linux box myself. Prolly coz I don't want to shell out excessive money for a Cisco AP :P |
| 10:30.52 | buz | they dont say anything about getting it these days |
| 10:31.14 | fredl | koen - so I just have a cheapo Cisco AP350 I got from marktplaats. |
| 10:31.15 | buz | but they do have a pw protected sdk on the site |
| 10:31.41 | fredl | well buz if they're only a few miles away from where you are, give 'em a call! LOL |
| 10:32.18 | buz | *calls* |
| 10:32.23 | fredl | lkcl, I also have coded on a proprietary IVR application with Dialogic equipment. |
| 10:32.49 | fredl | that's cool stuff :P so I have some professional deformation with respect to telephony and computing. |
| 10:33.56 | buz | ok they say it is available |
| 10:34.04 | fredl | no shit, really? |
| 10:34.06 | buz | but not on stock for about 6weeks |
| 10:34.16 | buz | price in switzerland is 500CHF |
| 10:34.26 | fredl | how many euros is that? |
| 10:34.34 | buz | 320 or so |
| 10:34.57 | buz | orders are filled directly by them in switzerland |
| 10:34.57 | koen | ~change 500 chf to eur |
| 10:35.12 | buz | neeat ;) |
| 10:35.15 | koen | apt: botsnack |
| 10:35.15 | apt | :), koen |
| 10:35.24 | fredl | that's pretty damn cheap... I did do some research into them before and I read some rumors that they'll make you pay bigtime for their SDK |
| 10:35.37 | buz | i dont think they are really interested in selling it |
| 10:35.46 | buz | not the guy on the phone anyway |
| 10:35.52 | buz | rather unfriendly and not at all chatty |
| 10:36.08 | buz | "we deliver solutions not phones" what a heap of crapü |
| 10:36.10 | fredl | Hmm. |
| 10:36.25 | buz | tho upon further insistence he did say that one can buy individual ones |
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| 10:37.28 | buz | thinking of it, it's pretty damn weird he didnt even mention HIS name |
| 10:37.41 | buz | which is standard in switzerland, really |
| 10:37.49 | fredl | interesting. |
| 10:38.16 | buz | here's what i think: the thing is probably really buggy |
| 10:38.22 | buz | which is why they dont care to advertise it |
| 10:38.40 | buz | if it was usable, why not sell it somewhat more obviously? |
| 10:39.12 | fredl | well there sure was a lot of press buzz about it at some point. |
| 10:39.37 | buz | yeah |
| 10:39.50 | buz | mostly because it was so cheap i guess |
| 10:40.06 | buz | then again there occasionally still is press buzz about the road stuff |
| 10:40.18 | buz | which i'm beginning to believe doesnt actually exist |
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| 10:41.10 | buz | http://www.road-gmbh.de/ and apparently the webserver somehow agrees |
| 10:41.48 | koen | I did play with the prototype last FOSDEM |
| 10:41.58 | buz | oh so theere is something |
| 10:42.01 | buz | how big was it really |
| 10:42.05 | koen | big |
| 10:42.12 | koen | like a nokia communicator |
| 10:42.26 | buz | the big or the smaller one? |
| 10:42.42 | buz | i could live with a 9300i style device |
| 10:42.48 | buz | not so much with 9500 |
| 10:48.51 | fredl | so openmoko is debian based? |
| 10:50.12 | Kaloz | i hope not |
| 10:50.13 | Kaloz | p |
| 10:50.28 | fredl | heh, why not? |
| 10:51.01 | Kaloz | fredl: because a phone has to based on embedded technology, or it will stink like the nokia 770 |
| 10:51.04 | Kaloz | :p |
| 10:51.10 | koen | debian based in the sense that config files are in the same place and stuff like update-alternatives works the same |
| 10:52.43 | Kaloz | if it will be infected with perl, then it will need a rewrite :P |
| 10:55.39 | mickeyl | *yawn* |
| 10:55.42 | hrw|work | hi mickeyl |
| 10:55.46 | mickeyl | morning folks |
| 10:56.06 | mickeyl | it will be debian-based as much as OpenZaurus, OpenEZX, etc. are debian based. |
| 10:56.20 | mickeyl | we don't use their repository, but we use some of their policies |
| 10:56.24 | mickeyl | which is a fair compromise IMO |
| 11:03.34 | mickeyl | i fully agree with your statement that there's no sense in having the same thing run everything... see OpenBSD on the Zaurus... it's cool, but only useful for like 10 geeks or so |
| 11:03.50 | xorAxAx | netbsd on my toaster for the win! |
| 11:03.54 | koen | 10 geeks with a 6GB disk |
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| 11:19.20 | greentux | buz: i have a road here... its big, but the keyboard and display is very nice |
| 11:19.36 | greentux | buz: better then all other devices i saw |
| 11:28.28 | Kaloz | greentux: is it a prerelease unit? |
| 11:55.43 | buz | how much did it cost |
| 11:56.08 | buz | id pay 500? or so |
| 11:56.11 | buz | rumors are double that |
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| 12:58.19 | lkcl_work | http://www.whatmobile.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=400063&highlight=#400063 |
| 12:59.38 | fredl | dang I hate that the Neo will not (yet) have WiFi, I think I could make a killing with that :P |
| 13:00.21 | fredl | got your email lkcl. checking out a bunch of things here. |
| 13:03.10 | fredl | hmm, external USB wifi... |
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| 13:06.16 | hrw|work | fredl: with extra powered hub... |
| 13:07.11 | lkcl_work | fredl: yep - requires power of course. great for a security device though or as a backup router. put a powered usb hub plus a wifi dongle and an ethernet dongle on, and use the gprs for emergency internet access for admins |
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| 13:12.09 | lkcl_work | webcam onto the phone, with detection software. anything moves, phone alerts you with a call and with SMS, then creates a tunnel over the internet, over GPRS, to let you in to view the camera. |
| 13:12.33 | lkcl_work | usb-host was a _significant_ addition that only a geek could decide :) |
| 13:12.52 | hrw|work | if you have power for devices |
| 13:14.17 | fredl | how much power would a wifi device use? couldn't it just use the battery? |
| 13:14.35 | hrw|work | wifi sticks want over 500mA |
| 13:14.45 | hrw|work | fic phone provide 0mA |
| 13:14.48 | fredl | *that* much?? |
| 13:14.52 | Kaloz | lkcl_work: great, and will it have night vision and 5mpixel camera? |
| 13:15.00 | Kaloz | lkcl_work: otherwise it's pointless and just brainded |
| 13:15.07 | Kaloz | braindead even |
| 13:15.14 | koen | hrw|work: 500mA is the max for the usb spec |
| 13:15.28 | hrw|work | koen: so what? many devices ignore it |
| 13:17.15 | lkcl_work | Kaloz: the htc universal has a night sensor so you can automatically switch on the backlight - when _needed_ |
| 13:17.44 | hrw|work | koen: I killed usb port here by charging pda |
| 13:18.42 | fredl | koen, you think eduroam enabled neo's would sell well ? |
| 13:20.28 | fredl | I tend to think of students, still, as 'poor' but I have indications this might not be reality :) |
| 13:22.29 | hrw|work | what is eduroam? |
| 13:22.30 | fredl | eduroam.org |
| 13:22.37 | mikesh | eduroam, very cool organization, i have it in my school :) |
| 13:22.52 | fredl | mikesh - where from? |
| 13:23.06 | mikesh | fredl: czech technical university |
| 13:23.26 | fredl | awesome! |
| 13:23.53 | stefan_schmidt | http://www.eduroam.com/ |
| 13:24.07 | mikesh | fredl: i think its international, on every important education centers in europe |
| 13:34.34 | greentux | Kaloz: yes a beta unit... |
| 13:34.48 | greentux | hrw|work: the FIC cant power any usb device? like the nokia 770? |
| 13:35.21 | hrw|work | greentux: thats what current infos say |
| 13:35.44 | mickeyl | it's very complicated to supply power to the usb. kudos to sharp who can do it |
| 13:35.52 | greentux | hrw|work: no little usb flash... |
| 13:35.57 | hrw|work | battery powered hubs will be popular... |
| 13:36.05 | hrw|work | greentux: no bt sticks, no wifi sticks |
| 13:36.18 | hrw|work | I have BT 2.0 EDR stick unused.. |
| 13:36.18 | greentux | hrw|work: bt is inside i read |
| 13:36.27 | hrw|work | greentux: wrong read |
| 13:36.54 | hrw|work | greentux: current prototype lack bt, new version is unknown in this area |
| 13:37.24 | greentux | thought i read it on mickeyls page ;) |
| 13:37.30 | fredl | any usb wifi sticks that can do 802.1x under Linux? |
| 13:37.31 | hrw|work | but I will stop 'bt or no bt' talks on channels where mickeyl is |
| 13:37.37 | mickeyl | thanks :) |
| 13:37.50 | greentux | agree |
| 13:37.51 | mickeyl | it was on my page |
| 13:37.54 | mickeyl | but i had to remove it |
| 13:38.12 | mickeyl | hopes are still there |
| 13:38.23 | mickeyl | can tell you more in about 7 - 10 days |
| 13:39.06 | greentux | the it can be better to focus on powered usb... |
| 13:39.38 | mickeyl | are there manufactureres for battery powered hubs? |
| 13:39.44 | mickeyl | if not, we need to convince FIC to build one |
| 13:40.13 | hrw|work | http://www.amazon.com/Cyber-Power-Battery-Powered-CP-H420MP/dp/B0002UQALQ |
| 13:40.26 | hrw|work | first hit |
| 13:40.39 | hrw|work | http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/CPH420MP.asp is homepage |
| 13:40.42 | mickeyl | fair price |
| 13:40.45 | greentux | there are no sdio cards for that microsd i assume... |
| 13:40.46 | mickeyl | $17 |
| 13:40.47 | hrw|work | but its big |
| 13:41.07 | hrw|work | http://www.mittoni.com.au/usb-20-powered-7port-hub-p-1920.html |
| 13:41.10 | mickeyl | greentux: unfortunately not. even if there were, you wouldn't get any RF because the slot is in the device below the battery and the PCB |
| 13:41.39 | mickeyl | s/below/between/ |
| 13:41.47 | greentux | mickeyl: yes dont want to use with RF devices... |
| 13:42.02 | hrw|work | mickeyl: usb host is OTG like spitz/tosa? |
| 13:42.03 | mickeyl | thought you were thinking wifi |
| 13:42.14 | mickeyl | hrw|work: i _think_ so (not sure atm.) |
| 13:42.39 | fredl | I wonder how big an order it would take for FIC to consider adding in WiFi :P |
| 13:42.48 | mickeyl | heh, the other pain |
| 13:42.56 | mickeyl | :D |
| 13:43.18 | mickeyl | If i got one penny for every time someone asked for WiFi I'd be millionaire by now ;) |
| 13:43.28 | mickeyl | including my queries, of course |
| 13:43.29 | mickeyl | heh |
| 13:43.41 | hrw|work | mickeyl: I hope that usbhost cable will be in package so we would not have to pay^Wquery trisoft for such one |
| 13:43.49 | fredl | well Linux/Wifi/GPS is a killer application I think. |
| 13:44.52 | fredl | Triple Play? :-) |
| 13:45.51 | mickeyl | for sure |
| 13:46.09 | fredl | damn there's SO many applications I can think of for that. |
| 13:46.36 | fredl | FIC shoulda launched them before Christmas! |
| 13:46.45 | fredl | (with WiFi:) |
| 13:47.51 | hrw|work | fredl: let them release first version |
| 13:47.52 | fredl | yeah I know |
| 13:47.52 | mickeyl | know that i am an insider I know that it's incredibly hard to design hardware |
| 13:48.04 | mickeyl | hard, costly, time consuming |
| 13:48.14 | mickeyl | and they don't have that much experience than HTC or other phone vendors |
| 13:48.19 | mickeyl | so bear with them and let them start slowly |
| 13:48.56 | fredl | well FIC has lots of consumer electronics experience, right? |
| 13:49.00 | mickeyl | yeah |
| 13:49.02 | fredl | just not phones. |
| 13:49.05 | mickeyl | *nod* |
| 13:49.15 | fredl | I can dig that. |
| 13:49.33 | hrw|work | btw - samsung has 3 uarts? |
| 13:49.37 | mickeyl | yeah |
| 13:49.41 | mickeyl | too few |
| 13:49.45 | mickeyl | hardware-wise this is just the beginning... trust me. I have heard of projects in the pipeline that are mind blasting. |
| 13:50.41 | fredl | they should try an invent something that makes them modular somehow. plug out the GPS, plug in a Wifi or something. |
| 13:51.16 | fredl | that's one major shortcoming of the mobile phone industry right now I think. |
| 13:51.46 | fredl | you get all or nothing. |
| 13:52.04 | hrw|work | fredl: it is hard to join those things: modularity and size |
| 13:52.14 | fredl | oh absolutely. |
| 13:52.32 | hrw|work | for example I would like to have Up/Down buttons on side for volume regulation during call |
| 13:52.47 | hrw|work | first release will probably lack them |
| 13:53.39 | hrw|work | keypad would be nice too |
| 13:53.46 | fredl | so what's with this AGPS chip? what kind of software ? what kind of maps ? |
| 13:53.59 | mickeyl | right. I'd love more buttons as well. this project has been designed for the chinese market and they seem to adore buttonless phones, but future phones will have a more broad scope |
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| 14:55.43 | noidd | Ok, so the SoC has a limited number of UARTS. |
| 14:55.56 | noidd | I guess you could increase that by adding them via the USB bus |
| 14:57.17 | fredl | bah, Santa Claus will arrive in Noordwijk the minute after Sinterklaas leaves. |
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| 15:07.37 | hrw|work | noidd: or creating serial ports by using gpio lines? |
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| 15:15.51 | koen | mickey|bbl: s/adore buttonless phones/adore useless phones/ |
| 15:16.18 | mickey|bbl | *nod* ezx is nothing but a shame |
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| 15:30.14 | noidd | another prospect, yes. |
| 15:30.24 | noidd | morning everyone btw |
| 15:30.39 | noidd | iirc there are no hard buttons on the phone right? |
| 15:31.22 | noidd | So how do you wake the phones display up to use it? |
| 15:33.04 | hrw|work | noidd: you blank screen and wait for TS touch |
| 15:33.26 | hrw|work | I'm curious will they provide somekind of screen cover |
| 15:33.32 | noidd | i don't understand |
| 15:34.01 | noidd | you see why i'm asking the question |
| 15:34.15 | noidd | i'd be scared to put it in my pocket since it would constantly be switched on |
| 15:34.33 | noidd | its not like there is any spring that the button would fight against to activate it |
| 15:34.47 | noidd | also, I wonder how well the devices bounce on concrete |
| 15:35.02 | noidd | since i've bounced my cellphones and Zaurus' more times than I can count |
| 15:35.44 | mickey|devel | there are two hard buttons |
| 15:35.47 | mickey|devel | one on/off |
| 15:35.50 | mickey|devel | one action |
| 15:36.21 | mickey|devel | we will probably have tap and tap+hold actions for both buttons |
| 15:36.24 | noidd | wherebouts are they physically? |
| 15:37.00 | noidd | and have a userspace daemon waiting for events on them? |
| 15:37.07 | noidd | or some other connection method? |
| 15:37.47 | mickey|devel | physically.... one is slightly left at the top (on / off), one is at the right side vertically centered |
| 15:38.14 | mickey|devel | i think they will be emit events through the input system |
| 15:38.25 | mickey|devel | s/be // |
| 15:38.35 | noidd | so you'd grab the events with keybindings in gtk? |
| 15:38.47 | mickey|devel | yeah |
| 15:39.10 | mickey|devel | we have a set of specifications for the usage of both buttons though |
| 15:39.17 | noidd | so applications could override default behaviour if they have focus |
| 15:39.19 | mickey|devel | which is mapped to on/off, lock, calling dialer, etc. |
| 15:39.36 | mickey|devel | i'm not sure whether we want that for the on/off button |
| 15:39.54 | mickey|devel | our idea was that the auxiallary button is hardcoded to launch the dialer app |
| 15:39.59 | mickey|devel | on tap |
| 15:40.04 | mickey|devel | and to popup a menu on hold |
| 15:40.09 | mickey|devel | for options like |
| 15:40.11 | mickey|devel | "lock device" |
| 15:40.13 | mickey|devel | "change profile" |
| 15:40.18 | mickey|devel | so, essentially phone stuff |
| 15:40.25 | noidd | I'm wondering if I could hold the device in one hand and be able to comfortably hit both buttons - one with my index finger, the other my thumb |
| 15:40.43 | noidd | if so, "Hello Iambic morse paddle for data entry" :-) |
| 15:40.54 | mickey|devel | probably not, because the on/off is sunken to prevent accidental trigger |
| 15:40.57 | noidd | sorry, I'm self-chuckling |
| 15:41.06 | noidd | ah, crap :-) |
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| 15:41.27 | mickey|devel | we can think about all kinds of touch screen interfaces for your morse interest |
| 15:41.27 | mickey|devel | heh |
| 15:41.37 | mickey|devel | a big fat button in the middle |
| 15:41.47 | mickey|devel | and below you see the chars |
| 15:41.49 | mickey|devel | :D |
| 15:41.58 | noidd | Well, if I can have two buttons similtaniously I can input data at 50wpm |
| 15:41.59 | mickey|devel | might as well implement the "senso" game |
| 15:42.16 | noidd | but the touchscreen driver doesn't do multiple touches |
| 15:42.19 | noidd | which is fine |
| 15:42.25 | noidd | just figured i'd ask :-) |
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| 15:44.02 | noidd | oh |
| 15:44.05 | noidd | here's a question |
| 15:44.27 | noidd | does the headphone socket provide input as to whether there is something plugged into it? |
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| 15:44.48 | noidd | I figure it does since you have to re-route audio to headphones if there are |
| 15:44.54 | mickey|devel | no idea, but i bet it does |
| 15:45.11 | noidd | I wonder how that is read |
| 15:45.13 | mickey|devel | it's just a question whether it's routed to a gpio or whether you have to poll |
| 15:45.31 | mickey|devel | well... that part isn't written yet, but I'm sure I can convince Harald to emit it via input system |
| 15:45.33 | noidd | Well, concievably you could hook a morse hey up to that. |
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| 15:45.39 | mickey|devel | heh |
| 15:46.23 | koen | mickey|devel: time for ASoC + devmand :) |
| 15:46.35 | mickey|devel | ya |
| 15:47.05 | hrw|work | mickey|devel: does it have headphones detection? |
| 15:47.47 | hrw|work | thats a thing which I like in SE phones. I connect headset and it change profile to headset |
| 15:48.35 | mickey|devel | dunno |
| 15:48.38 | mickey|devel | sounds good |
| 15:48.47 | hrw|work | very usefull thing |
| 15:48.53 | noidd | yeah it is |
| 15:49.07 | noidd | and there already has to be some kind of subsystem in place to re-route the audio |
| 15:49.32 | noidd | so make it pluggable so it can notifuy apps of said changes |
| 15:49.55 | hrw|work | noidd: ASoC can take care of it |
| 15:49.57 | koen | that's what dbus is for :) |
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| 15:53.24 | noidd | I know little about dbus |
| 15:53.28 | noidd | so time to learn ;-) |
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| 15:53.37 | lkcl_w | ok - has anybody thought through the implications of having bluetooth audio enabled, and then plugging in the headset? |
| 15:54.31 | lkcl_w | because if, like in the Ipaqs, it is simply assumed that 'oh, headphone was plugged in, let's connect the audio to it _now_' then you'll end up disconnecting the bluetooth. |
| 15:54.39 | lkcl_w | in mid-conversation. |
| 15:56.19 | lkcl_w | noidd: dbus was written by a bunch of NIH idiots who failed to read the dce/rpc specification, which they duplicated, before beginning their time-wasting efforts. |
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| 15:57.45 | lkcl_w | the specification of d-bus is near-identical to that of dce/rpc - except that there are massive omissions in d-bus. glaring omissions. like, an rpc compiler, which is a fundamental requirement for saving people time on inter-process communication. |
| 15:59.07 | lkcl_w | anyway. |
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| 16:01.03 | lkcl_w | bluetooth audio, car-adapter audio, headphone, speaker, double-routing (in the case of himalaya and universal htc devices) to record phone conversations, stereo speakers (in the case of the universal), flip-over-reverse-lid speaker and mic (in the case of the universal). whatever audio system is created, it needs to make all of those audio routing combinations simple to add as a driver. |
| 16:01.20 | lkcl_w | and simple to control, from userspace. |
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| 16:09.06 | mickey|devel | lkcl: you have a point. probably the dbus guys are too young to remember DCE |
| 16:10.58 | mickey|devel | hmm icon handling in Gtk |
| 16:11.06 | xorAxAx | lkcl: yeah, indeed, tcp was a completly wrong invention, where is the OSI stack? |
| 16:11.25 | xorAxAx | tcp is osi with many omissions ... |
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| 16:21.16 | xorAxAx | even ms had to change dce to suite their needs ... |
| 16:38.59 | noidd | DCE? |
| 16:39.00 | noidd | Wow, that |
| 16:39.10 | noidd | 's something I've not used since my IBM days |
| 16:39.15 | noidd | AIX |
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| 16:47.42 | mickey|devel | hi tim |
| 16:53.26 | noidd | I bet if Tim has been on this channel before someone has asked him about a bzflag port to the phone :-) |
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| 17:06.00 | xorAxAx | noidd: i did |
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| 17:08.43 | jgw2001 | I want to buy a moko phone, I do a buy one...... |
| 17:08.55 | jgw2001 | I want to buy a moko phone, how do I buy one...... |
| 17:09.07 | mickey|devel | i'm afraid you have to wait until next year (see topic 'ETA') |
| 17:09.34 | jgw2001 | So if some one offered million dollars for one now, you would say no? |
| 17:09.40 | xorAxAx | FIC doesnt seem to have a retailer network to me ... |
| 17:09.44 | xorAxAx | i checked it today |
| 17:09.57 | xorAxAx | jgw2001: everybody would start to laugh and then say no :) |
| 17:10.12 | mickey|devel | worldwide direct marketing... |
| 17:10.17 | xorAxAx | except if you had some suitcases with you |
| 17:10.31 | xorAxAx | mickey|devel: hmm? |
| 17:10.41 | hrw|work | jgw2001: if you want to have big devboard with lcd connected and some cables, external powersupply etc... |
| 17:10.47 | mickey|devel | hehe |
| 17:10.56 | hrw|work | jgw2001: then you would get one for that 1mln usd |
| 17:10.59 | mickey|devel | i'm tempted to make a picture of my devel board, but I'm afraid I'm not allowed to show |
| 17:11.35 | hrw|work | mickey|devel: got 1800 part working or 900 card? |
| 17:12.06 | jgw2001 | Well if had 1 million pounds..... |
| 17:12.08 | mickey|devel | hrw|work: neither one. still no one sent me a new antenna :/ |
| 17:12.17 | TimRiker | noidd: :) all the world wants 3d gaming on their phone. :) I wan augmented reality so I can overlay the game on the real world and see other people playing. :) |
| 17:12.29 | mickey|devel | jgw2001: cash doesn't matter. having the device ready matters. it's just not there yet, sorry |
| 17:13.06 | hrw|work | mickey|devel: you do not have 1EUR prepaids there? |
| 17:13.43 | jgw2001 | Do you know the specfic phone is 3g compatble, and as it is opensource, is it compatable with any availble phones (ie uploading the software) |
| 17:13.45 | hrw|work | mickey|devel: in Poland I can buy prepaid sim cards for 5 pln (1.3EUR) |
| 17:14.01 | hrw|work | mickey|devel: and all our networks are 900/1800 ;D |
| 17:14.52 | jgw2001 | In the UK you can buy a prepaid phone for £5 |
| 17:15.03 | mickey|devel | jgw2001: it's 2.5G (see press release). it doesn't feature JAVA (yet), so there's nothing to upload yet. The whole idea of OpenMoko is to be able to run native applications, not JAVA, so it's very low priority for us |
| 17:15.34 | koen | mickey|devel: if FIC talking to qualcomm and/or ericsson? |
| 17:15.48 | mickey|devel | koen: no idea. that's a question for Sean |
| 17:16.16 | mickey|devel | i'm more or less disconnected from everything marketing |
| 17:16.19 | koen | afaik those are the only companies having an umts stack |
| 17:16.21 | mickey|devel | strategy etc. |
| 17:17.04 | hrw|work | have to go - cu |
| 17:17.16 | mickey|devel | cu hrw |
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| 17:20.32 | mickey|devel | ok, i don't think I violate anything with showing you that: |
| 17:20.36 | mickey|devel | http://linuxtogo.org/~mickeyl/misc/DSC00002.JPG |
| 17:20.37 | mickey|devel | :D |
| 17:21.05 | alphaone | cool :-) |
| 17:21.14 | xorAxAx | incredible |
| 17:21.24 | xorAxAx | as compact as my first mitsubishi phone |
| 17:21.25 | lkcl | TimRiker: that's too funny. well, with gps, it's not too far off. |
| 17:22.47 | duffolonious | hehe |
| 17:22.55 | xorAxAx | whats the yellow thingie? the antenna? :) |
| 17:23.16 | mickey|devel | yeah |
| 17:24.02 | mickey|devel | ok, and one more straight out of the lab |
| 17:24.03 | mickey|devel | http://linuxtogo.org/~mickeyl/misc/x-on-gta01v3.jpg |
| 17:24.51 | mickey|devel | that needs to be enough for a teaser |
| 17:25.26 | koen | that makes mallum happy as well |
| 17:25.32 | mickey|devel | hehe |
| 17:25.51 | alphaone | mickey|devel: That's three buttons on the sides? |
| 17:26.18 | mickey|devel | no |
| 17:26.21 | alphaone | Or maybe plugs of some sort |
| 17:26.22 | mickey|devel | one is usb |
| 17:26.28 | mickey|devel | one is the aux button |
| 17:26.34 | mickey|devel | one is something else |
| 17:26.38 | mickey|devel | antenna connector or something |
| 17:26.50 | alphaone | :-) |
| 17:26.55 | mickey|devel | left hand side microphone socket |
| 17:26.58 | koen | mickey|devel: is that the 2.8" one? |
| 17:27.02 | mickey|devel | yea |
| 17:27.14 | alphaone | nice |
| 17:27.43 | koen | mickey|devel: so we can start talking DPI :) |
| 17:27.53 | mickey|devel | nah, these are old pics |
| 17:28.16 | mickey|devel | i haven't had a chance to play more with the actual hardware since weeks :/ |
| 17:28.33 | mickey|devel | in 7-10 days *crossing fingers* |
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| 18:19.22 | noidd | bah mickey, I get 403's on those urls :-P |
| 18:20.10 | duffolonious | noidd: he already pulled them - you're too slow :) |
| 18:20.19 | noidd | damnit - I'll never go to lunch again! |
| 18:21.05 | duffolonious | hmmm.... well I have the images... one moment. |
| 18:21.19 | noidd | send in msg just in case |
| 18:21.20 | noidd | :-) |
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| 18:21.31 | tampakuro_ | i wanna see too. |
| 18:23.04 | duffolonious | http://duffolon.us/~bryan/mickey_pics/ - enjoy |
| 18:24.22 | noidd | I can't get the second grafic to load |
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| 19:07.37 | rob_w | any code yet ? |
| 19:08.12 | stefan_schmidt | rob_w: It will be announced. No need to ask such questions again and again. |
| 19:08.59 | rob_w | so it hasent been yet |
| 19:09.30 | rob_w | any rumors of what widget library they use ? |
| 19:12.18 | mjr | gtk |
| 19:20.53 | goxboxlive | stefan_scmidt: I have read the mailinglist for openmoko. Is it like like someone saying a bad thing to make openmoko runon inexample HTC devices? |
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| 19:25.14 | koen | goxboxlive: as that person and find out |
| 19:25.29 | koen | s/as/ask/ |
| 19:26.19 | stefan_schmidt | goxboxlive: Don't get Robert wrong. He just prefer the Neo device. |
| 19:26.41 | goxboxlive | ok |
| 19:27.01 | stefan_schmidt | goxboxlive: I see no problem to have openmoko on other devices. It is _designed_ for exactly this purpose. :) |
| 19:27.20 | goxboxlive | right. |
| 19:30.36 | rob_w | stefan_schmidt, interesting |
| 19:33.31 | duffolonious | "FIC Neo1973 Smartphone" - is this currently the only supported phone? |
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| 19:36.06 | koen | I wonder where I stole "It's not open if you don't share" from |
| 19:39.56 | [g2] | koen "The streets will find there own use for technology" :) |
| 19:40.12 | [g2] | loose neuromancer quote |
| 19:40.43 | [g2] | Oh.... and stealing the exensive 3MB ) |
| 19:40.55 | [g2] | s/exensive/expensive/ |
| 19:44.52 | stefan_schmidt | koen: send |
| 19:46.31 | *** topic/#openmoko by buz -> OpenMoko Developer Lounge | http://www.openmoko.com | http://lists.openmoko.org | ETA: January 2007 (that applies for hardware and software, so the SDK is not out yet) |
| 19:46.31 | *** topic/#openmoko by ChanServ -> OpenMoko Developer Lounge | http://www.openmoko.com | http://lists.openmoko.org | ETA: January 2007 |
| 19:47.13 | stefan_schmidt | stupid ChanServ. Do what we tell you. :) |
| 19:48.50 | buz | i'm inclined to think it actually does that |
| 19:48.55 | buz | it just doesnt let us tell what to do ;) |
| 19:49.24 | stefan_schmidt | heh |
| 19:50.02 | buz | what kind of browser does maemo use? |
| 19:50.29 | buz | that will be a huge piece of code openmoko desperately needs |
| 19:50.56 | stefan_schmidt | IIRC browser is not decided yet. |
| 19:51.24 | duffolonious | I heard talk of minimo (linuxdevices?) |
| 19:52.42 | buz | i think so far minimo is a pocketpc only thing? |
| 19:52.56 | buz | personally i would prefer khtml to gecko |
| 19:53.12 | buz | but with it being gtk based khtml might be too much entrenched with qt |
| 19:53.24 | buz | (then again, webkit doesnt seem to use qt at all so not all is lost) |
| 19:53.46 | buz | and nokia uses khtml / webkit in their zooming s60 browser |
| 19:53.50 | rob_w | buz, why not gpe-minibrowser or similar ? |
| 19:53.53 | marcb4242 | minimo runs at least on familiar |
| 19:54.10 | buz | because using yet another engine is a bad thing in my book |
| 19:54.17 | buz | especially if its one that isnt widely used |
| 19:54.35 | rob_w | so the engine is choosen , well then |
| 19:54.36 | marcb4242 | gpe-minibrowser has no ajax support, minimo does. |
| 19:54.51 | buz | mhh minimo on familiar? minimo it is then ;) |
| 19:55.01 | buz | can we have minimo on the desktop? |
| 19:55.04 | marcb4242 | google maps run on minimo but not on gpe-minibrowser |
| 19:55.08 | buz | firefox is getting slower and slower |
| 19:55.51 | rob_w | is minimo well maintained ? |
| 19:56.23 | buz | isnt minimo essentially gecko with some glue? |
| 19:57.21 | *** join/#openmoko myren (n=myren@63.231.83.177) |
| 19:58.19 | rob_w | hmm but real gecko can be quite intesiv in terms of footprint i think |
| 19:58.58 | buz | well as soon as j2me works one can use opera mobile for really small footprint ;) |
| 19:59.07 | marcb4242 | rob_w: there are still new nightlies for minimo. but only two developers and many nasty users |
| 19:59.17 | buz | that thing works surprisingly good |
| 19:59.40 | marcb4242 | rob_w: mostly the pocketpc users are complaining everywhere |
| 19:59.41 | buz | of course opera proper would be very nice |
| 20:00.10 | marcb4242 | buz: no source code |
| 20:00.16 | rob_w | but then u are moving kinda away from gpl |
| 20:00.21 | buz | sure |
| 20:00.28 | buz | but i'm from the use the best tool for the job camp |
| 20:00.34 | buz | not from the fsf fundamentalist camp |
| 20:00.49 | rob_w | then ur the guy with all the money , right ? |
| 20:01.03 | stefan_schmidt | buz: I think you will have a hard time here. ;) |
| 20:01.03 | buz | as student, not so much ;) |
| 20:01.23 | stefan_schmidt | heh |
| 20:01.29 | rob_w | i also prefer spending my money , as the saying ".. spend ur money, so it will return " |
| 20:01.35 | buz | stefan_schmidt: i use kde almost exclusively on my desktop and laptop ;) |
| 20:02.14 | buz | but i wont use vesa drivers just to avoid nvidia's blob |
| 20:02.17 | duffolonious | hmmm... minimo looks like it may be inactive. |
| 20:02.25 | duffolonious | looking at the forums. |
| 20:04.20 | duffolonious | from a UI perspective, minimo looks good for a pda, imo. |
| 20:04.24 | buz | besides i'm not the only pragmatist around i believe |
| 20:05.28 | duffolonious | it's not like there can't be multiple browsers used. |
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| 20:07.21 | stefan_schmidt | buz: I was just kidding. Of course there will be more pragmatists around. |
| 20:07.36 | buz | well rest assured i'm not lightly offended ;-9 |
| 20:08.01 | marcb4242 | screenshot minimo on ipaq: http://handhelds.org/scap/port.11361.png |
| 20:08.48 | marcb4242 | duffolonious: last blog post of minimo developer dougt dates from july |
| 20:09.03 | koen | marcb4242: I had google maps running on gpe-mini-browser a while back |
| 20:09.21 | rob_w | koen, i bet so |
| 20:12.41 | marcb4242 | koen: I have version 0.19 which does not work |
| 20:13.03 | marcb4242 | koen: from familiar 0.8.4 feeds |
| 20:13.23 | buz | google maps on gprs is a good way to go bankrupt *EG* |
| 20:13.43 | marcb4242 | buz: prices are falling |
| 20:13.46 | duffolonious | 0.19 dates back to January of this year too. |
| 20:13.58 | buz | from 7? to 5? per mb around here |
| 20:14.18 | buz | tho you can get 2GB per month for 30? but who needs 2GB each month |
| 20:14.37 | marcb4242 | from 25EUR / MB to 0,30EUR / MB here or 70EUR/month flat |
| 20:14.39 | buz | gimme 100mb for 5? a month |
| 20:14.50 | myren | whoo flatrate |
| 20:14.55 | buz | true flatrate? |
| 20:15.01 | alphaone | And I can't wail for all these kick-ass apps |
| 20:15.06 | alphaone | Yep |
| 20:15.09 | buz | if i could get true umts flatrate i just might kick cable |
| 20:15.10 | stefan_schmidt | heh |
| 20:15.15 | alphaone | At least they say so |
| 20:15.18 | myren | uh, i hear they start complaining around 50 G a month usually |
| 20:15.26 | buz | around here they offer unlimited accounts |
| 20:15.28 | buz | limited to 2gb |
| 20:15.30 | stefan_schmidt | alphaone: BTW, can I get my UMTS card back? ;) |
| 20:15.34 | myren | right exactly |
| 20:15.38 | alphaone | Well I didn't hit that limit yet |
| 20:15.47 | buz | well they even say it's limited to 2gb |
| 20:15.51 | buz | just how that is legal i dont know |
| 20:15.52 | stefan_schmidt | alphaone: Just kidding. |
| 20:16.03 | alphaone | heh |
| 20:17.03 | myren | stateside, they'll triangulate your signal and sedn the mafia after you if you do certain types of vpn |
| 20:17.30 | myren | for some reason they really do not approve |
| 20:18.03 | buz | in the us they even deactivate hardware that is on the phone |
| 20:18.11 | myren | thats just Verizon |
| 20:18.13 | buz | just why people put up with that i dont understand |
| 20:18.24 | myren | its america, land of consumerism and cheap goods |
| 20:18.32 | myren | if you dont like the massification of yoru products, you can suck it |
| 20:18.48 | buz | not sure thats right |
| 20:18.56 | buz | if you dont like to pay more for more you can suck it |
| 20:19.05 | buz | which is true for most places |
| 20:19.13 | myren | verizon does not operate that way |
| 20:19.42 | myren | they operate on the "we are the network" and you will accept our network and all the insane crippling things we do to our hardware |
| 20:19.51 | myren | since we are the network, you have no choice |
| 20:19.56 | myren | massification |
| 20:20.02 | buz | isnt verizon gsm? |
| 20:20.07 | myren | no |
| 20:20.12 | buz | ah well |
| 20:20.16 | buz | for cdma all hope is lost |
| 20:20.34 | myren | they cooked up their own proprietary cdma just to make sure you couldnt get around the crap hardware they sell |
| 20:21.23 | buz | but considering that there are gsm networks, it's mostly the consumers fault |
| 20:21.41 | myren | verizon has way better coverage |
| 20:21.49 | myren | theres a lot of places where there really is no choice |
| 20:22.11 | noidd | T-mobile has coverage here but won't sell accounts in this state |
| 20:22.25 | buz | no prepay? |
| 20:22.28 | noidd | I'm guessing that means my area has a network the peer on as opposed to own |
| 20:22.38 | noidd | not sure |
| 20:22.47 | noidd | my main interest was in their data services |
| 20:22.56 | noidd | I looked seriously at the sidekcik for a while |
| 20:23.11 | noidd | the sidekick is by far the most used phone in the Deaf community |
| 20:23.19 | noidd | hence my leanings that way. |
| 20:23.48 | myren | sprint owns a majority of hte spectrum |
| 20:23.51 | myren | they just dont use it |
| 20:24.06 | myren | some day their data plan will be really good... some day far far away |
| 20:24.26 | buz | i'm waiting for wimax |
| 20:27.17 | myren | i'm waiting for singularity |
| 20:27.26 | myren | thats why i'm on #openmoko |
| 20:45.33 | buz | if singularity is skynet i dont want it ;) |
| 20:46.45 | myren | singularity is a point where change goes non-zero. it stops being an incremental responsive process to old systems, and instead takes off and hurls itself in another direction. |
| 20:47.19 | buz | didnt skynet start learning geometrically? |
| 20:47.41 | myren | when did skynet go online again? |
| 20:47.49 | buz | well that depends |
| 20:47.57 | buz | in terminator 1+2 it was 1997 |
| 20:48.14 | buz | in the abomination that is terminator 3 skynet was something else entirely |
| 20:48.17 | myren | bitch mother network sure is taking her sweet time in killing us all |
| 20:48.39 | duffolonious | buz: for t3 they "modernized" it. |
| 20:48.47 | buz | it's probably happily crunching away inside seti ;) |
| 20:49.07 | duffolonious | but "geometrically" was term they used to describe how quickly it learned. |
| 20:49.16 | duffolonious | not how it learned. |
| 20:49.24 | myren | aahhh thank you |
| 20:50.22 | myren | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometric_progression for those who dont remember 10th grade |
| 20:50.44 | myren | a(n) = a(1) r ** (n-1) |
| 20:50.58 | myren | where r is a geometric ratio |
| 20:51.01 | myren | aka a constant |
| 20:51.08 | duffolonious | heheh, yep |
| 20:51.51 | buz | duffolonious: i thought that was obvious ;) |
| 20:52.11 | myren | i was trying to picture a system whcih could infer intelligence from geometry |
| 20:52.22 | myren | given the swarm bots running around skylabs, it wouldve made some kind of sense |
| 20:52.25 | duffolonious | buz: in the context you used it I was confused |
| 20:52.41 | duffolonious | yeah, what myren said :) |
| 20:52.42 | buz | well i'm not a mathematician |
| 20:52.56 | buz | i get to say stuff thats not really correct ;) |
| 20:53.04 | duffolonious | "for those who dont remember 10th grade" - did you graduate high school? ;) |
| 20:53.07 | buz | i was just too lazy to type at speed |
| 20:53.19 | duffolonious | I see |
| 20:54.20 | myren | i graduated high school, but its been a lot of years between then and now |
| 20:54.31 | myren | i dont think i could taylor series now, but at some point i passed calc II |
| 20:54.33 | duffolonious | to summarize: the original movie treated skynet like a mainframe, t3 treated it like seti@home. |
| 20:54.41 | buz | exactly |
| 20:54.46 | myren | no no, |
| 20:54.49 | buz | whereas the later is making a lot more sense |
| 20:54.55 | myren | the original movie presumed a mainframe like behavior |
| 20:55.07 | myren | john carter assumed mainframe like behavior |
| 20:55.07 | buz | just how a mainframe like thingy would learn at ever increasing speed is beyond me |
| 20:55.10 | myren | and he was wrong |
| 20:55.14 | myren | wait was that the kids name? |
| 20:55.54 | duffolonious | myren: I don't follow, who was wrong? |
| 20:55.54 | koen | john carter is from ER :) |
| 20:55.54 | duffolonious | jon connor? |
| 20:55.54 | myren | yes thanks |
| 20:55.55 | myren | i'm amazed i got that close for pulling a name out of my arse |
| 20:56.02 | buz | the brain is a weird device |
| 20:56.11 | buz | first shot usually gets you rather close |
| 20:56.22 | myren | have you read Jeff? Hawkins On Intelligence? |
| 20:56.33 | myren | aside from the complete lack of science, it was a good read |
| 20:57.34 | buz | not sure i can remember the time i read the last non science / non textbook book |
| 20:57.36 | duffolonious | "Reese: It had no choice. Their defense grid was smashed. We'd won. Taking out Connor then would make no difference. Skynet had to wipe out his entire existance." - from the original movie. Maybe later they said he got it wrong, but I don't recall. |
| 20:57.58 | duffolonious | myren: Jeff Hawkins? |
| 20:58.16 | myren | duffolonious: he's a computer guy turned brain guy |
| 20:58.24 | myren | invented Palm or something |
| 20:58.54 | duffolonious | I see - is his paper on artificial intelligence? or just intelligence in general? |
| 20:59.18 | myren | its a book on how the brain works and what ai can pull from it |
| 20:59.28 | myren | hold please |
| 21:01.20 | buz | http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS4271004882.html now THAT is embarassing for trolltech considering that yahua makes the greenphone |
| 21:02.55 | buz | and i did think esmertec was mostly dead these days anyhow |
| 21:04.14 | duffolonious | buz: the jbed jvm thingy? |
| 21:04.19 | buz | yes |
| 21:04.44 | buz | well i do |
| 21:04.53 | buz | but i dont understand why you would pay for closed source stuff really |
| 21:06.00 | duffolonious | what are the advantages? |
| 21:06.01 | duffolonious | (besides that major disadvantage) |
| 21:06.01 | buz | cant have buffer overflows |
| 21:06.02 | duffolonious | ok, the usual java bonuses? |
| 21:06.02 | buz | yeah i guess so |
| 21:06.02 | buz | and with those java accelerating arm cores its probably not even that slow |
| 21:06.02 | duffolonious | quicker development, better fsck handling, etc... |
| 21:06.08 | duffolonious | yet, don't they mangle/strip the java api anyway? |
| 21:06.16 | buz | sure they do |
| 21:06.25 | duffolonious | so even if you were a java developer it's quite different. |
| 21:06.33 | buz | just look at the size of j2se |
| 21:06.35 | duffolonious | (thus negating the "quick development") |
| 21:06.38 | myren | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierarchical_Temporal_Memory |
| 21:06.47 | buz | well it depends |
| 21:06.56 | buz | the stuff that is actually there is mostly the same IIRC |
| 21:07.03 | buz | its just a lot that is missing |
| 21:07.21 | myren | that HTM links is Jeff Raskins's memory thingie |
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| 21:08.30 | myren | the problem with java is its memory consumption |
| 21:08.39 | myren | which makes it a terrible choice for embedded systems |
| 21:08.42 | myren | http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/debian/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=java |
| 21:09.00 | buz | i dont think you can really compare j2se on i386 with j2me |
| 21:09.03 | duffolonious | myren: yep yep |
| 21:09.08 | myren | that comparison defaults to gcc, but you can compare java to anything |
| 21:09.29 | myren | buz: you have a good point |
| 21:09.33 | buz | considering that you pretty much need j2me on a consumer phone these days |
| 21:09.43 | buz | its not that weird that you would implement most of the stack in j2me |
| 21:10.14 | myren | personally i'd rather be using mono on my embedded devices |
| 21:10.18 | buz | (now i dont think j2me is worth very much but still, i can see their point) |
| 21:10.49 | myren | its a full stack, has a very good linker for reducing all the code you dont need included, and has a reasonable memory footprint |
| 21:10.59 | myren | but the preference is largely just personal |
| 21:11.50 | buz | i tend to believe java has the better development tools on linux |
| 21:12.05 | myren | personal preference |
| 21:12.17 | myren | monodevelop is getting better, its probably still behind eclipse |
| 21:12.18 | buz | probably |
| 21:12.29 | myren | but i just use vim or gvim and nant/ant anyways |
| 21:12.29 | buz | the languages are very similar anyhow |
| 21:13.02 | myren | yes, yes indeed. i happen to know the CIL (bytecode) that mono uses really well, which is why i prefer it |
| 21:13.14 | myren | and i know the bytecode hacking libraries |
| 21:14.35 | duffolonious | this benchmarking site is interesting. |
| 21:14.48 | duffolonious | c apparently doesn't do well with this "regex-dna" program. |
| 21:16.20 | myren | posix regex is classically fairly unoptimized |
| 21:17.21 | buz | i once saw a benchmark of various regex packages |
| 21:17.30 | buz | they were factors of 10 and 20 apart |
| 21:18.49 | buz | thats not really a good language benchmark |
| 21:18.49 | buz | more a library benchmark |
| 21:18.50 | myren | yeah exactly |
| 21:19.06 | myren | sometimes it comes for free. fast regex is just an assumed part of perl |
| 21:20.36 | duffolonious | I wonder about some of these benchmarks. |
| 21:21.11 | duffolonious | PHP and Python have a lot of c code simply wrapped. |
| 21:21.38 | duffolonious | as does perl. |
| 21:22.04 | myren | i havent looked at php or python |
| 21:22.36 | myren | which tests? |
| 21:23.30 | duffolonious | well, c effectively kills PHP. |
| 21:23.34 | buz | would be kinda embarrassing if it didnt |
| 21:23.51 | buz | as for regex, these days many simply seem to use perl regex |
| 21:23.58 | buz | at the very least PCRE |
| 21:25.08 | duffolonious | well, perl's regex is pulled from sed - iirc. |
| 21:25.14 | duffolonious | sed is all in c. |
| 21:30.50 | myren | :) |
| 21:31.09 | myren | wow. that htm article on wikipedia is totally useless. |
| 21:31.17 | myren | then again htm is fairly ambiguous |
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| 22:28.33 | mickeyl | *yawn* |
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| 22:32.40 | noidd | tired man? |
| 22:33.31 | mickeyl | ya. was playing table tennis for a couple of hours |
| 22:33.35 | mickeyl | that's always exhausting |
| 22:34.41 | noidd | sounds too much like hard work to me |
| 22:34.59 | noidd | I saw the photos earlier - looked like my old lab :-) |
| 22:35.07 | mickeyl | hehe |
| 22:35.16 | noidd | I got all nostalgic |
| 22:38.33 | mickeyl | i don't enjoy working with devel boards and preproduction hardware too much |
| 22:38.37 | mickeyl | i'm more of a software guy |
| 22:45.54 | mickeyl | guess i better lay down. g'night |
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