| 05:02.53 | *** join/#openjtag Tiersten_ (i=tman@nslu2-linux/Tiersten) |
| 05:14.01 | ka6sox | okay so I'm going to like setup s3projects.org tonight... |
| 05:14.18 | ka6sox | (if I don't fall asleep first) |
| 06:55.32 | *** join/#openjtag ep1220 (n=NN@gate.epatec.at) |
| 09:25.31 | *** join/#openjtag odoc (i=odoc@is.borntobooze.de) |
| 10:26.17 | *** join/#openjtag vmaster_ (i=vmaster@p549B5F24.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 12:36.50 | lennert | is there a guaranteed minimum jtag scan rate? |
| 12:44.30 | *** join/#openjtag bullet (n=bullet@11.212.203.62.cust.bluewin.ch) |
| 12:46.55 | ep1220-log | lennert: You mean a JTAG CLK frequency which every chip must be able to handle ? |
| 12:47.11 | ep1220-log | if so: not that i am aware of |
| 12:47.27 | lennert | yeah |
| 12:47.34 | lennert | i looked in the jtag specs but couldn't find any |
| 12:49.00 | ep1220-log | this also depends on electrical parameters of the onboard JTAG connection. |
| 12:49.31 | ep1220-log | I it is definitively important that You can run at lower frequencies as well. |
| 12:55.07 | lennert | yes |
| 12:55.27 | lennert | i thought about just scanning the IDCODEs at low speed, and then look in a table to see what the max speed of the slowest component in the chain is |
| 12:55.54 | lennert | if there's any component in the chain that you don't know, stay at 'low speed' |
| 12:56.07 | lennert | but since there's no minimum guaranteed speed.. |
| 13:14.02 | [g2] | ep1220-log how's the proto's ? |
| 13:14.50 | [g2] | or how are the proto's :) |
| 14:44.48 | *** join/#openjtag Tiersten (i=tman@nslu2-linux/Tiersten) |
| 17:37.37 | ka6sox | I think its best here. |
| 17:37.38 | Tiersten | hmm? |
| 17:37.40 | Tiersten | k |
| 17:37.43 | Tiersten | Code or scripts? |
| 17:37.51 | ka6sox | what I have is s3projects.org |
| 17:38.02 | Tiersten | Are you going to put any code or scripts into it though? |
| 17:38.09 | Tiersten | If so then use something like mediawiki or docuwiki |
| 17:38.19 | Tiersten | code & scripts are a real PITA to format in pmwiki |
| 17:38.21 | ka6sox | that is a good question |
| 17:38.44 | ka6sox | we should ask the people here..as they will be the contributers. |
| 17:38.48 | Tiersten | Mediawiki does have the advantage that you have to create a user to add/create pages |
| 17:39.01 | ka6sox | okay I like that. |
| 17:39.27 | ka6sox | I would like to be able to have code snippets in the wiki |
| 17:39.36 | Tiersten | Use mediawiki or docuwiki then |
| 17:39.55 | Tiersten | you need a DB for mediawiki. no idea about docuwiki |
| 17:40.05 | ka6sox | I have mysql running. |
| 17:40.12 | ka6sox | and also DB |
| 17:40.41 | ka6sox | mediawiki is the thing that runs wikipedia? |
| 17:40.44 | Tiersten | Yes |
| 17:40.47 | ka6sox | k |
| 17:41.07 | Tiersten | Needs MySQL and PHP |
| 17:41.12 | ka6sox | got both |
| 17:41.19 | Tiersten | I know |
| 17:42.05 | Tiersten | That's my recommendation anyway |
| 17:42.12 | ka6sox | I've been hesitating setting it up until I spoke to you about this because its a PITA to migrate wikis |
| 17:42.13 | Tiersten | If you won't put any code or scripts into it then pmwiki is fine |
| 17:42.21 | Tiersten | Migrate? |
| 17:42.24 | Tiersten | What are we migrating?? |
| 17:42.28 | ka6sox | nothing |
| 17:42.42 | ka6sox | if I started with one wiki and found out it was the wrong one |
| 17:42.48 | Tiersten | ah |
| 17:43.00 | Tiersten | I would have started off with mediawiki but pmwiki was already installed for nslu2 |
| 17:43.05 | ka6sox | I knew the pain of formatting scripts etc. |
| 17:43.19 | ka6sox | okay we have a chance to do it right here! |
| 17:43.19 | ka6sox | :) |
| 17:43.40 | ka6sox | looks like I need to get better at mysql :) |
| 17:43.52 | ka6sox | later today I'll look into how to set it up. |
| 17:43.57 | ka6sox | (mediawiki) |
| 17:44.10 | Tiersten | Install phpmyadmin |
| 17:44.13 | Tiersten | It'll make it easier |
| 17:44.17 | ka6sox | k |
| 17:45.10 | ka6sox | I know that mediawiki handles picture files etc but can you store actual code (released stuff not sccs style) |
| 17:45.29 | Tiersten | You put it into the page |
| 17:45.31 | Tiersten | You don't upload it |
| 17:45.43 | ka6sox | okay so its going to be copy/paste? |
| 17:45.48 | Tiersten | The formatting however isn't quite as braindead as pmwiki |
| 17:45.50 | Tiersten | Yes |
| 17:46.14 | ka6sox | okay but I could use external links to download entire programs too... |
| 17:46.41 | ka6sox | will this run on a PIII-800/512mb/80GB machine? |
| 17:46.56 | Tiersten | the external links would have to done manually |
| 17:47.04 | Tiersten | and by an admin who can upload scripts |
| 17:47.17 | Tiersten | or you could do it by the user but it'd mean writing some extra stuff to handle that |
| 17:47.19 | Tiersten | Don't see why not.... |
| 17:47.40 | ka6sox | thanks... |
| 17:47.52 | ka6sox | I knew that you would have this answer ;) |
| 17:48.43 | Tiersten | Main thing is dealing with assholes |
| 17:48.51 | Tiersten | *cough* StealhMatt *cough* |
| 17:51.29 | ka6sox | I think we can deal with that if we have to...I'm told that the latest version of mediawiki deals with that :) |
| 17:51.52 | ka6sox | (@ least I hope so!) |
| 17:52.07 | Tiersten | isn't s3projects a bit specific? |
| 17:52.52 | ka6sox | ya...but nobody except us knows what that means :( |
| 17:53.19 | ka6sox | its generic enough to be used for other things. |
| 17:53.36 | Tiersten | ? |
| 17:53.38 | Tiersten | how? |
| 17:53.45 | Tiersten | I take it this is going to be FPGA stuff? |
| 17:55.42 | *** join/#openjtag sonaru (n=FullName@84.5.53.5) |
| 17:55.50 | sonaru | hi |
| 17:56.34 | sonaru | someone knows the dreambox ? |
| 17:56.54 | Tiersten | Hi |
| 17:57.00 | Tiersten | I know what one is and that's all. Why? |
| 17:57.29 | sonaru | i want to know if it's possible |
| 17:57.39 | Tiersten | erm |
| 17:57.45 | sonaru | to have canalsat whith that |
| 17:57.46 | Tiersten | the dreambox is possible yes... |
| 17:58.11 | Tiersten | No clue |
| 17:58.36 | sonaru | ok thx |
| 17:58.58 | sonaru | and with coship ? |
| 17:59.19 | Tiersten | We're not a satellite channel you know... |
| 17:59.22 | sonaru | sorry, i'm lent |
| 18:00.01 | sonaru | you're talking about what here ? |
| 18:00.37 | Tiersten | JTAG. Debugging and reprogramming stuff basically |
| 18:00.54 | sonaru | i see |
| 18:00.59 | sonaru | pro |
| 18:01.22 | sonaru | why the best demo for you ? |
| 18:02.00 | sonaru | "wich" |
| 18:02.10 | Tiersten | huh? I don't understand your question |
| 18:02.33 | sonaru | wich demo is the best for hacking ? |
| 18:02.42 | Tiersten | demo? |
| 18:02.59 | sonaru | demodulator |
| 18:03.14 | Tiersten | We're nothing at all to do with satellite reception at all |
| 18:03.22 | ka6sox | we build tools for working with embedded processors...not satellite receivers. |
| 18:03.42 | sonaru | ok |
| 18:03.42 | ka6sox | we have no knowledge of satellite demodulators. |
| 18:03.45 | sonaru | sorry |
| 18:04.01 | Tiersten | np |
| 18:04.03 | ka6sox | np |
| 18:04.22 | sonaru | it's because on the topic there are bootloader |
| 18:04.40 | sonaru | it's means "flash" |
| 18:04.42 | ka6sox | ooh |
| 18:04.44 | sonaru | no |
| 18:04.49 | ka6sox | we use it the same way |
| 18:04.57 | ka6sox | but for embedded processors |
| 18:05.20 | ka6sox | NAS boxes, routers etc. |
| 18:05.38 | sonaru | i see |
| 18:05.50 | sonaru | thx |
| 18:05.59 | ka6sox | no problem. |
| 18:06.01 | sonaru | you are kindness |
| 18:06.24 | sonaru | bye |
| 18:06.33 | Tiersten | Bye |
| 18:06.36 | *** part/#openjtag sonaru (n=FullName@84.5.53.5) |
| 18:07.22 | lennert | c4n j00 h4ck my b0x y0 |
| 18:07.34 | Tiersten | h3h |
| 18:08.17 | *** join/#openjtag sonaru (n=FullName@84.5.53.5) |
| 18:08.23 | sonaru | hey! |
| 18:08.26 | ka6sox | hey! |
| 18:08.30 | sonaru | it's me again |
| 18:08.33 | Tiersten | Hi |
| 18:08.50 | sonaru | you know a channel where talking about sat |
| 18:08.52 | sonaru | ? |
| 18:08.57 | Tiersten | Nope sorry |
| 18:09.06 | sonaru | damn! |
| 18:09.06 | ka6sox | nope sorry |
| 18:09.10 | Tiersten | Try efnet? |
| 18:09.21 | ka6sox | or undernet |
| 18:09.25 | sonaru | ok |
| 18:09.29 | sonaru | thx |
| 18:09.31 | ka6sox | np |
| 18:09.35 | sonaru | bye |
| 18:09.37 | ka6sox | bybe |
| 18:09.39 | ka6sox | bye |
| 18:10.16 | ka6sox | sayonara! |
| 18:10.52 | lennert | h3'77 b3 b4ck s00n |
| 18:10.55 | Tiersten | anyway, what happens if I want to use a Virtex II Pro? :) |
| 18:11.00 | Tiersten | We going to have to rename the website? |
| 18:11.11 | lennert | Tiersten: i guess.. |
| 18:11.15 | ka6sox | no.... |
| 18:11.45 | ka6sox | okay lets come up with something more generic...but doesnt' have JTAG in it... |
| 18:12.20 | ka6sox | or bootloader |
| 18:12.38 | lennert | kick-ass-projects.org :P |
| 18:12.44 | Tiersten | Sounds good to me |
| 18:12.59 | lennert | maybe something without 'ass' in it |
| 18:13.08 | Tiersten | heh |
| 18:13.46 | ka6sox | H4x0rPr0j3ctS.org |
| 18:13.57 | Tiersten | fpga4fun.com already exists so we can't do anything along those lines |
| 18:14.07 | Tiersten | Although we could start up #OpenPong |
| 18:14.11 | lennert | lol |
| 18:14.14 | ka6sox | vhdl4fun? |
| 18:14.15 | lennert | openpong |
| 18:14.23 | lennert | ka6sox: what if we want to do verilog? |
| 18:14.30 | Tiersten | SystemC? |
| 18:14.41 | lennert | Tiersten: i'm actually working on a vt100 emulator for the spartan3 board... |
| 18:14.44 | lennert | #openvt100 |
| 18:14.49 | Tiersten | What if you're lennert and want to do it by twiddling bits directly? |
| 18:15.00 | lennert | hehe |
| 18:15.04 | lennert | that's possible, actually |
| 18:15.35 | Tiersten | How far did your reverse engineering attempt on the bitstream go BTW? |
| 18:15.48 | lennert | still ongoing :) |
| 18:16.02 | lennert | i have the ram and clbs mapped out |
| 18:16.06 | ka6sox | okay so what name represents what we want to do? |
| 18:16.06 | lennert | but i can't make sense of the routing yet |
| 18:16.50 | Tiersten | Once you work out the routing then you've pretty much done it all |
| 18:16.52 | ka6sox | we can think about this...rain locker calls. |
| 18:16.58 | Tiersten | rain locker? |
| 18:17.03 | Tiersten | shower? |
| 18:17.18 | lennert | s3projects is fine for now, i think |
| 18:17.29 | Tiersten | yeah |
| 18:17.53 | ka6sox | okay then I'll set about to getting wikimedia setup. |
| 18:18.03 | ka6sox | after I install phpmyadmin! |
| 18:18.34 | lennert | okay! |
| 18:18.49 | ka6sox | dyoung will be happy :) |
| 18:18.53 | Tiersten | happy? |
| 18:18.57 | Tiersten | He's always happy |
| 18:19.00 | Tiersten | Apart from when you're talking about PAM |
| 18:19.15 | ka6sox | dyoung: PAM can BITE me |
| 18:19.21 | lennert | lol |
| 18:19.45 | Tiersten | exactly |
| 18:44.46 | *** part/#openjtag odoc (i=odoc@is.borntobooze.de) |
| 19:03.00 | *** join/#openjtag odoc (i=odoc@is.borntobooze.de) |
| 19:05.51 | *** part/#openjtag odoc (i=odoc@is.borntobooze.de) |
| 19:27.59 | lennert | to divide a clock by two, it's not a good idea to clock a t-flipflop with the original clock and use the Q output, right? |
| 19:29.03 | lennert | lots of vhdl stuff does that, but it doesn't look kosher to me |
| 20:42.41 | ka6sox | lennert, Q or Qbar |
| 20:42.51 | ka6sox | depending on what phase you want |
| 20:43.18 | lennert | well |
| 20:43.21 | lennert | the Q output will have some skew |
| 20:43.49 | ka6sox | yes |
| 20:43.55 | ka6sox | not avoidable. |
| 20:44.03 | lennert | what if you have an 'enable' output |
| 20:44.12 | ka6sox | (they have clock blocks that take care of that...use them instead. |
| 20:44.14 | lennert | and then clock the second flipflop with the original clock, but use that enable as input |
| 20:44.21 | lennert | yeah, the DCMs |
| 20:44.25 | ka6sox | yep |
| 20:44.27 | lennert | but i've seen stuff like.. |
| 20:44.37 | lennert | 'to divide a clock by 256, use 8 t flipflops in series' |
| 20:44.40 | lennert | that's just evil |
| 20:44.49 | lennert | better use an 8-bit up counter then |
| 20:45.02 | lennert | at least all the bits will flip at the same time |
| 20:45.07 | ka6sox | you will see those examples but they don't have that construct |
| 20:45.15 | ka6sox | in the Xilinx stuff you do. |
| 20:45.22 | ka6sox | Altera does it a different way. |
| 20:45.30 | lennert | don't have which construct? |
| 20:45.42 | ka6sox | the 8-bit up counter |
| 20:45.49 | ka6sox | (older implementations) |
| 20:45.56 | lennert | huh? |
| 20:46.00 | ka6sox | modern stuffs will be able to handle it. |
| 20:46.03 | lennert | # Counters : 9 |
| 20:46.03 | lennert | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:46.03 | lennert | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:46.03 | lennert | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:46.12 | ka6sox | yes...modern stuffs can. |
| 20:46.13 | lennert | oh, you mean older chips? |
| 20:46.15 | lennert | yeah, ok |
| 20:46.17 | ka6sox | ya |
| 20:46.21 | lennert | if you don't have an up counter, you can do it by hand |
| 20:46.50 | lennert | i.e. D input = D output ^ previous Q output |
| 20:47.07 | lennert | still better than connecting the Q output to the next CLK input |
| 20:47.22 | ka6sox | d flipflops are your friend. |
| 20:47.59 | lennert | all i'm saying that you shouldn't use the Q output as a clock input if you can avoid it, right or no? |
| 20:48.57 | ka6sox | I don't use Q outputs as clocks unless I can't avoid it. |
| 20:49.04 | ka6sox | there are fanout issues. |
| 20:50.40 | ka6sox | for the /256 that you are talking about a 8 bit counter (with overflow) is what I use. |
| 20:52.31 | lennert | i guess i'm just not explaining myself clearly enough |
| 20:55.16 | ka6sox | in general it is okay to use the output of a Flipflop to clock another gate. |
| 20:55.32 | ka6sox | the big issues come in Skew and fanout. |
| 21:01.41 | ka6sox | does that answer it? or am i still missing it? |
| 21:02.19 | lennert | maybe i'm still missing it |
| 21:02.30 | lennert | i'm kind of waiting for the light bulb to go on |
| 21:02.38 | lennert | thanks for your answers so far |
| 21:03.16 | ka6sox | skew is usually only an issue when you are trying to recombine answers from other gates somewhere down the line. |
| 21:03.34 | ka6sox | or if you have parallel bus type activity. |
| 21:11.28 | Tiersten | Or if you're an autiophile equipment manufacturer and want to charge 50x as much for equipment :) |
| 21:12.12 | lennert | Tiersten: the kind that also sells gold-plated fiber cable for higher fidelity? :) |
| 21:12.53 | Tiersten | Nah. The ones that sell gold plated oxygen free copper mains leads |
| 21:13.36 | lennert | i want my Fe2O3 :( |
| 21:13.42 | Tiersten | heh |
| 21:16.39 | Tiersten | My toy budget is a bit low at the moment so I can't get whatever it is you guys are planning on making |
| 21:16.55 | lennert | i'm still working on the spartan3 board |
| 21:17.02 | lennert | the v2pro board is still on order |
| 21:17.47 | lennert | Tiersten: you have the spartan3 board? |
| 21:18.39 | Tiersten | I've got a spartan 3 board but it's not the same as the ones you've got |
| 21:18.48 | Tiersten | The one I've got is the older model and doesn't have the RAM |
| 21:19.05 | lennert | is it an xc3s200 though? |
| 21:19.15 | lennert | does it also have the xcf02s flash? |
| 21:19.32 | Tiersten | No flash |
| 21:19.56 | Tiersten | It's just a 200K S3 on a PCB |
| 21:19.57 | lennert | jtag? |
| 21:20.00 | lennert | okay |
| 21:20.17 | lennert | anything else? vga, serial? |
| 21:21.07 | Tiersten | Obviously it has JTAG :) |
| 21:21.14 | Tiersten | Just serial |
| 21:21.30 | lennert | darn, so no pong for you :) |
| 21:21.44 | lennert | Tiersten: it could have had just their {master,slave} {serial,parallel} config stuff |
| 21:22.38 | Tiersten | True |
| 21:27.31 | Tiersten | The older boards are really cheap now - http://www.digilentinc.com/Products/Older.cfm |
| 21:28.45 | ka6sox | still waiting for the IIIe to come out ;( |
| 21:28.52 | lennert | Tiersten: you have the D2 board? |
| 21:28.56 | Tiersten | Yeah |
| 21:29.45 | Tiersten | Not sure why but I've got one of those as well *shrug* |
| 21:29.56 | Tiersten | I think I used it once |
| 21:30.11 | lennert | Tiersten: it has lots of IOs exposed |
| 21:30.38 | Tiersten | Yeah |
| 21:34.04 | lennert | mine doesn't have too many IOs exposed |
| 22:05.18 | lennert | whee |
| 22:05.30 | lennert | we can make grayscales with the spartan3 board with pulse width modulation |
| 22:05.49 | ka6sox | whee! |