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| 09:59.09 | JMunakra | ep1220: What about the EZNIOSUSB? is that one compatible with 3.3V ? |
| 10:00.00 | ubeman-zzzz | It should be. |
| 10:00.20 | ubeman-zzzz | I seem to remember inspecting that schematic a few month ago |
| 10:01.26 | JMunakra | I see no level changer circuitry, but there is a 3.3V regulator |
| 10:01.44 | JMunakra | Does the 2232 need 3.3 V externally regulated? |
| 10:05.49 | ubeman-zzzz | pin 3,42 VCC +4.35 - 5.25V Vcc for device core |
| 10:06.07 | ubeman-zzzz | there is a convenience 3v3 out too |
| 10:06.36 | ubeman-zzzz | Oh, I think my penance is up, you probably dont reconize this nick. |
| 10:13.22 | JMunakra | Hm, looks like the chip can be configured to do either 3.3 or 5 V for I/O |
| 10:17.57 | dyoung | on 2 ports, theres a vccio for both a and b |
| 10:26.50 | ep1220 | Jmunakra: Yes, EZNIOUSB is 3.3V |
| 10:27.44 | JMunakra | and so should be the DLP-2232M |
| 10:28.11 | ep1220 | the DLP-2232M does not have a voltage regualarot on board. |
| 10:28.19 | ep1220 | You have to add it externally |
| 10:28.30 | JMunakra | So you have an external 3.3V regulator to support your chip |
| 10:28.36 | ep1220 | Yes. |
| 10:28.42 | JMunakra | OK, got it |
| 10:29.17 | JMunakra | is there other boards that might be suitable for development? |
| 10:29.55 | dyoung | the DLP looks nice. |
| 10:29.57 | ep1220 | With 2232M, I am not aware of any other |
| 10:30.20 | dyoung | the DLP is the cheapest method. |
| 10:30.27 | ep1220 | DLP is nice, but You need to add more parts |
| 10:30.44 | dyoung | Theres a dual serial port adapter with a 2232 in it, but its $80. |
| 10:30.57 | ep1220 | JMunakra: where did You see the DLPM at 19$ |
| 10:30.58 | dyoung | ep1220, not too much extra stuff though right? |
| 10:31.30 | JMunakra | at the FTDI site when you click "Buy online" |
| 10:31.54 | JMunakra | dyoung: do you have the link to that serial adapter |
| 10:32.12 | ep1220 | JMunakra; this are UKP not USD |
| 10:32.24 | JMunakra | Oh :) |
| 10:32.29 | ep1220 | Is approx 35USD |
| 10:32.48 | dyoung | the dlp: http://www.mouser.com/index.cfm?handler=displayproduct&lstdispproductid=560644&e_categoryid=284&e_pcodeid=62602 |
| 10:33.25 | ep1220 | dyoung: what You need to add depends on what You want to do. |
| 10:34.07 | ep1220 | If You only want to do FLASH programming thru the JTAG scan-chain all U need is a 3.3V regulator (plus capacitors) |
| 10:34.11 | dyoung | Hmm, the serial adapter is $40 now; I guess I was imagining things. |
| 10:34.32 | dyoung | ... or pilfer the 3.3V from the DUT.. |
| 10:34.41 | dyoung | http://www.usbgear.com/computer_cable_details.cfm?sku=XC-232-C&cats=199&catid=626%2C106%2C199%2C465 |
| 10:34.53 | ep1220 | The 3.3C on-chip can only be laoded with a few mA |
| 10:35.01 | ep1220 | Not enough to drive VCCIO |
| 10:35.18 | dyoung | oh, I meant the real DUT. |
| 10:35.23 | dyoung | like a nslu2 for instance... |
| 10:35.32 | ep1220 | Taking 3.3V from DUT has following problem: |
| 10:35.48 | ep1220 | the 2232C needs VCCinternal and VCCIO from same source |
| 10:36.10 | ep1220 | e.g it does not like having internal power from USB and VCCIO unpowered |
| 10:36.45 | JMunakra | dyoung, how do you know it has the 2232C in it? |
| 10:37.07 | dyoung | I think thats the one that prpplague looked at. |
| 10:37.32 | dyoung | I msyelf am not positive it has it. |
| 10:37.48 | dyoung | I saw one at the store that looks similar that does though. |
| 10:39.26 | ep1220 | Still, You have to open these devices and add JTAG cabling, disable/remove the RS232 level converter, .. |
| 10:40.04 | ep1220 | I guess you do not come away cheaper than with the DLP2232M |
| 10:40.05 | JMunakra | change the EPROM |
| 10:40.15 | ep1220 | THis is easy. SW only |
| 10:40.28 | dyoung | ep1220, exactly. Thats why I like the dlp ! |
| 10:41.10 | ep1220 | One could think of making a small PCB to take the DLPM + other parts |
| 10:41.27 | dyoung | thts actually the current plan... |
| 10:41.41 | JMunakra | The ideal thing for us would be a commercial product with a connector where only a matching cable needs to be made. |
| 10:41.59 | ep1220 | JMunakra: this does not exist. |
| 10:42.20 | ep1220 | Though I heard there are JTAG emulators using this chip (500$+) |
| 10:42.44 | JMunakra | We could use their software :) |
| 10:43.08 | dyoung | the openjtag board that the dlp2232 plugs into should be cheap. |
| 10:43.48 | ep1220 | I routed what I have and asked for a quote. |
| 10:43.52 | JMunakra | If we had a JTAG software that supports more than just the slug, this thing could quickly become big |
| 10:44.12 | ep1220 | Setup fee 50EUR, plus 7EUR per board |
| 10:45.10 | ep1220 | (in Q10) |
| 10:45.28 | ep1220 | JMunakra: Writing this SW is a lot of work |
| 10:45.54 | JMunakra | ep1220, I have a working ARM debugger |
| 10:46.19 | JMunakra | and there is a MIPS module, but I haven't tested it |
| 10:46.42 | ep1220 | JMunakra: JtagPack ? |
| 10:46.49 | JMunakra | jtagpack.sourceforge.net |
| 10:46.56 | ep1220 | I looked at it: |
| 10:47.06 | dyoung | It ought to be easy enough to have "personality modules" to make it work for lots of targets |
| 10:47.09 | ep1220 | Most files are copyright by a Japanese guy |
| 10:47.19 | JMunakra | go and make a driver for 2232C for it and try, it shouldn't take more than a day now that you have the code |
| 10:47.37 | JMunakra | Copyrighted, but they're GPL |
| 10:47.45 | ep1220 | You saw: http://www.nahitech.com/jtag-en/license.html |
| 10:47.57 | ep1220 | There he says it is not GPL |
| 10:48.30 | JMunakra | Oh yeah, he switched license. The files I got were released under GPL. |
| 10:49.00 | ep1220 | JMunakra: Now if he claims someone else has added the GPL lines ? Not that I believe you did this !!! |
| 10:49.36 | JMunakra | I don't believe that's a big threat. |
| 10:49.53 | JMunakra | I have his original packages, and copies of his old web sites. |
| 10:50.12 | JMunakra | And even if I didn't... |
| 10:50.40 | JMunakra | If he were to do anything about it, we could still dump his code and use the IP we produced so far. |
| 10:51.59 | JMunakra | Anyway, I don't think he's doing a debugger right now. |
| 10:52.27 | JMunakra | oh, yeah, he is :) |
| 10:54.16 | JMunakra | dyoung: jtagpack is very modular. You need <500 lines of code to add a new hardware (bit shift level) |
| 10:54.43 | ep1220 | JMunakra: the DLP-2232C is not good at bitshift level. |
| 10:54.49 | ep1220 | There it is very slow. |
| 10:54.55 | JMunakra | what else do you do with it? |
| 10:55.57 | dyoung | MPSSE... |
| 10:56.04 | ep1220 | With bitShift level I mean. Your API is like setTMS(), SetTDO(), toggleTCK() |
| 10:56.15 | ep1220 | You refer to the same thing ? |
| 10:57.01 | ep1220 | For the 2232 your API is writeIR(), writeDR(), ... |
| 10:57.40 | JMunakra | it knows about the TAP state machine? |
| 10:57.44 | JMunakra | that's great! |
| 10:57.54 | ep1220 | No it does not. |
| 10:58.20 | JMunakra | If you say writeIR(), the stae machine has to change. |
| 10:58.28 | JMunakra | how is that done? |
| 10:59.01 | ep1220 | Yes, but this is done in SW. Yu send a combination of commands and bitstrings over USB |
| 10:59.38 | JMunakra | Anyway, the jtagpack API is basically TAPSetState(), shiftInOut(). |
| 11:00.27 | JMunakra | so that should go together easyly. |
| 11:02.10 | ep1220 | That abstraction layer fits better |
| 11:02.36 | dyoung-zzzz | night all |
| 11:02.52 | JMunakra | nighty-night |
| 11:04.25 | ep1220 | JMunakra: First i must finish the Linux Port of my library, anyway |
| 11:04.47 | JMunakra | What does your lib do? |
| 11:05.27 | ep1220 | implement commands like: WriteIR(), ReadDR(), WriteReadDR(), .. |
| 11:05.57 | ep1220 | Then I have a few XSCALE specific higher level routines |
| 11:06.14 | ep1220 | Like: Read Xscale DBGTX register, .. |
| 11:06.52 | JMunakra | jtagpack utilizes a bitmask to indicate which bits need to be read |
| 11:07.38 | JMunakra | the xscale functions would go into a higher abstraction level in jtagpack, over the core, while the bitshift is below the core |
| 11:08.31 | ep1220 | I will take another look at it. |
| 11:08.46 | JMunakra | the core (libjtag) abstracts away the physical chain (multiple chained chips etc.) |
| 11:09.32 | ep1220 | I looked at it once, and saw it does a much better job at abstraction then OpenWince |
| 11:10.07 | ep1220 | Still I prefer to have a core independent of jtagpack. |
| 11:10.32 | JMunakra | Are you going to release your source? |
| 11:10.45 | ep1220 | And maybe have another layer to fit it to jtagpack (so it can be separated easily if needed) |
| 11:10.51 | ep1220 | Yes |
| 11:11.14 | JMunakra | that should be easy |
| 11:11.39 | ep1220 | I also have a faster JTAG HW in planning |
| 11:11.52 | ep1220 | and want to make sure that one drops in easily :-) |
| 11:12.09 | JMunakra | do you use the open source libftdi? |
| 11:12.30 | ep1220 | I have it, and use it as a reference. |
| 11:12.40 | ep1220 | I started with the FTDI API on Windows. |
| 11:12.42 | JMunakra | libusb? |
| 11:12.53 | JMunakra | is your code portable? |
| 11:13.15 | ep1220 | And now I am implementing the (neede) functions from their library for Linus over libusb |
| 11:13.21 | ep1220 | s/linus/Linux |
| 11:13.50 | ep1220 | I want Win + Linux |
| 11:14.05 | JMunakra | I want Mac OS X |
| 11:14.16 | JMunakra | and Linux |
| 11:14.27 | ep1220 | You have gcc on Mac OS X, right ? |
| 11:14.33 | JMunakra | yeah |
| 11:14.40 | JMunakra | and libusb |
| 11:14.48 | ep1220 | This is all You need- |
| 11:15.06 | JMunakra | jtagpack is also autotoolized. |
| 11:15.38 | ep1220 | I have no experience with the autoconfig and co on Linux. |
| 11:15.51 | ep1220 | I will leave this part to other people |
| 11:17.11 | ep1220 | but until other people do have 2232C based compatible HW, it will not be of much use anyway |
| 11:18.28 | ep1220 | What target do You use for You work on jtagpack ? |
| 11:18.38 | JMunakra | ARM7TDMI |
| 11:18.50 | ep1220 | evaluation board ? |
| 11:19.19 | JMunakra | no, a board we made for a product at my company |
| 11:20.05 | ep1220 | You are a HW engineer ? |
| 11:20.31 | JMunakra | hm, usually the target powers the JTAG hardware, but do you say, in the FTDI case the JTAG hardware needs to power the target? |
| 11:20.35 | JMunakra | no, SW |
| 11:21.16 | ep1220 | For most commercial devices the target only powers the Level-shifters of the JTAG hardware |
| 11:21.36 | ep1220 | With the FTDI there is no power connection between target and probe |
| 11:21.41 | JMunakra | Yeah, but since we don't have level shifters |
| 11:21.46 | ep1220 | (except for GND) |
| 11:22.20 | JMunakra | OK, so the target doesn't need to be powered by the probe. |
| 11:22.54 | ep1220 | Yes. however this leaves some issues when the probe is powered and the target not (or vice-cversa) |
| 11:23.09 | JMunakra | <PROTECTED> |
| 11:23.09 | JMunakra | <PROTECTED> |
| 11:23.28 | ep1220 | yes |
| 11:24.25 | JMunakra | Oh, but the IO pins don't need to be supplied from VCCIO. I get it. |
| 11:25.02 | JMunakra | so when the target is now powered? |
| 11:25.11 | JMunakra | I don't see the problem |
| 11:25.46 | ep1220 | If only one device is powered, the other is backdriven -> this can damage the IO drivers |
| 11:27.13 | JMunakra | Hm, shouldn't an input be high-z? also when the device is not powered? |
| 11:28.42 | ep1220 | You know how a diode works ? |
| 11:28.55 | JMunakra | yeah :) |
| 11:29.18 | ep1220 | Asume You have a diode backwards biased from the IO-pin to the VCC pin |
| 11:29.49 | ep1220 | Normally this one does not have current flowing thru it |
| 11:30.06 | ep1220 | as VCC is larger than the level at the IO pin. |
| 11:30.14 | JMunakra | or the same |
| 11:30.26 | JMunakra | Oh, I see |
| 11:30.37 | ep1220 | Now the device is powered off, so VCC is at GND. |
| 11:30.40 | JMunakra | and the diode is there for what? |
| 11:31.04 | JMunakra | to protect the IO? |
| 11:31.13 | ep1220 | e.g. |
| 11:31.27 | ep1220 | but it can just be a "byproduct" of the design. |
| 11:31.35 | ep1220 | E.g. with TTL |
| 11:31.40 | JMunakra | Is that a general problem in circuit design? |
| 11:31.47 | ep1220 | Yes. |
| 11:31.59 | JMunakra | OK |
| 11:32.12 | ep1220 | You have to design output stages to be immune to back-driving |
| 11:32.18 | JMunakra | so we would be better off if we provided a level changer |
| 11:32.47 | ep1220 | Yes, but one which is designed with this in mind. |
| 11:32.50 | JMunakra | but I'm sure you designed that in as an option already :) |
| 11:34.00 | ep1220 | This is primarily a matter of cost and what You expect. |
| 11:34.20 | ep1220 | E.g. if i debug a NSLU (70EUR value) i might no care much. |
| 11:34.46 | ep1220 | If this were my only prototype (2 weeks to replace it) I'd think differently. |
| 11:35.22 | ep1220 | So far there was no conclusion here what features an openjtag HW should support. |
| 11:35.33 | ep1220 | What performance is expected, ... |
| 11:35.44 | ep1220 | At which price |
| 11:36.28 | JMunakra | It would be good to have the option, so it can compete with a commercial product |
| 11:37.04 | JMunakra | Of course, hackers will want to save the money, but we should have a broad adoption in mind. |
| 11:38.24 | ep1220 | If You make it an option it adds to cost. |
| 11:38.41 | ep1220 | i.e. more than when it is "mandatory" |
| 11:39.42 | JMunakra | I mean in the sense of a stuffing option |
| 11:40.03 | JMunakra | the board will be a tad bigger, but... |
| 11:40.57 | ep1220 | but then You make 2 boards = more work, 2x setup cost ... |
| 11:41.10 | JMunakra | why 2 boards? |
| 11:41.29 | ep1220 | You das "will be a tad bigger" |
| 11:42.01 | ep1220 | Actually the shifters are not that expensive. |
| 11:42.18 | ep1220 | but hard to get in small numbers |
| 11:43.57 | JMunakra | alright |
| 12:15.46 | *** join/#openjtag ByronT (~byron-por@ByronT.nslu2-linux) |
| 12:53.13 | *** join/#openjtag [g2] (~g2@g2.nslu2-linux) |
| 13:20.12 | [g2] | ep1220, morning |
| 13:20.38 | ep1220 | morning g2 |
| 13:21.01 | [g2] | you had a nice chat with JMunakra yesterday :) |
| 13:22.27 | ep1220 | You mean 4 hours ago ? |
| 13:26.43 | [g2] | yes :) |
| 13:27.36 | ep1220 | was nice |
| 13:32.56 | [g2] | I'm gonna be making boards soon |
| 13:33.01 | [g2] | CPU boards |
| 13:33.09 | ep1220 | XScale ? |
| 13:33.13 | [g2] | :) |
| 13:33.16 | [g2] | IXP422 |
| 13:33.24 | ep1220 | :-) |
| 13:33.43 | ep1220 | that one has encryption unit, right ? |
| 13:33.44 | [g2] | Ok... I'm not *making* the boards, I'm having an OEM make them for me |
| 13:33.51 | [g2] | yes |
| 13:34.03 | ep1220 | which interfaces ? |
| 13:34.17 | [g2] | interfaces ? |
| 13:34.26 | [g2] | you mean what's on the boards ? |
| 13:34.31 | ep1220 | yes |
| 13:35.07 | [g2] | 2 ethernet, serial, JTAG, miniPCI, CF, 64MB memory, + extras |
| 13:35.40 | [g2] | metal case |
| 13:35.59 | ep1220 | sounds good. |
| 13:36.12 | [g2] | we'll see |
| 13:36.24 | [g2] | I'm excited and nervous about it |
| 13:36.35 | ep1220 | I can feel with You. |
| 13:36.50 | ep1220 | How many do You have to buy ? |
| 13:36.55 | [g2] | 200 |
| 13:38.30 | ep1220 | Plan to sell them as development kits ? |
| 13:38.48 | [g2] | yes and LAMP/e-mail/other stuff |
| 13:39.06 | ep1220 | Does it have harddisk IF onboard ? |
| 13:39.29 | [g2] | no. the CF + 2 USB 2.0 ports |
| 13:39.44 | ep1220 | external PSU I asume. |
| 13:39.49 | [g2] | nod |
| 13:40.24 | [g2] | Target price is $249 US for all but the CF which will probably be sized but what ppl want on it |
| 13:40.44 | [g2] | that includes case and ps |
| 13:42.04 | ep1220 | Does it have a boot FLASH ? or boot from CF ? |
| 13:43.03 | [g2] | tiny boot flash to load from CF |
| 13:43.36 | ep1220 | You already have setup Your webshop ? |
| 13:43.43 | [g2] | from a cost perspective I think thats better and more useful than a fixed 8MB NOR flash |
| 13:44.08 | [g2] | I've got Apache 2.0 and PHP5 running on my slug :) |
| 13:44.15 | ep1220 | I do not have Flash prices in my head. |
| 13:44.15 | [g2] | with ssl |
| 13:44.38 | [g2] | I'll need to setup some pages and full specifications |
| 13:45.21 | [g2] | I'll be launching in the next week or two |
| 13:45.55 | ep1220 | Would be great if the PSU delivers enough power for a USB powered HD. |
| 13:47.06 | [g2] | :) |
| 13:47.44 | ep1220 | The CPU is at 266MHz ? |
| 13:47.44 | [g2] | I think high-powered usb devices are .5A @ 5V right ? |
| 13:47.47 | [g2] | nod. |
| 13:48.05 | [g2] | we couild do 533, but again cost |
| 13:48.19 | ep1220 | Yes. 500mA (is also what USB housings for 2.5 drives are rated) |
| 13:49.09 | [g2] | I think after having some devices out in the market (with some success) future builds could support that faster processor |
| 13:49.36 | ep1220 | nod |
| 13:50.01 | [g2] | I don't know whether it'll be well received or a big yawn |
| 13:50.31 | ep1220 | Hard to say. |
| 13:50.43 | [g2] | sure is |
| 13:51.49 | ep1220 | I was thinking about a similar device for the SOHO market. |
| 13:52.04 | ep1220 | there You might well be sucessfull. |
| 13:52.27 | [g2] | that's the market for the web server / e-mail server I was thinking of |
| 13:53.35 | ep1220 | Do U have it FCC certified ? |
| 13:54.00 | [g2] | it'll have full compliance |
| 13:54.04 | [g2] | FCC, CE, etc... |
| 13:54.22 | ep1220 | the OEM does the certification ? |
| 13:54.50 | [g2] | it costs |
| 13:55.01 | ep1220 | I know :-( |
| 13:55.14 | Tiersten | Don't know about FCC but you can self certify for CE |
| 13:55.36 | Tiersten | Just woe betide you if you say it is compliant and then somebody finds out it isn't... |
| 13:55.53 | ep1220 | but You might have to show measurements .. |
| 13:56.14 | Tiersten | You're supposed to have measurements but you don't have to file them anywhere first |
| 13:56.21 | ep1220 | true |
| 13:56.46 | Tiersten | so if you're really on a budget you can just hope it's compliant and only get the measurements done if there are challenges. living life really on the edge then |
| 13:57.17 | [g2] | It's not *that* expensive |
| 13:57.19 | Tiersten | I know a couple of people that have done that. They've designed it to be compliant to the best of their knowledge and just self certified it |
| 13:57.38 | Tiersten | For one thing it's not but you're supposed to do it for every revision and model |
| 13:57.49 | Tiersten | that can add up quickly |
| 13:58.03 | Tiersten | or maybe it's just I know a lot of real cheapskate people :) |
| 13:58.36 | ep1220 | I guess, You put it besides Your TV set - and if it does not harm receiption Your customers likely will not complain :-) |
| 13:58.36 | [g2] | well certainly for a spin you can just get some lab time and do your own measurements |
| 13:58.46 | Tiersten | yep |
| 13:59.09 | [g2] | but having the first design checked out makes a bunch of sense |
| 13:59.14 | Tiersten | Renting the gear/lab and doing it yourself is the cheapest method |
| 13:59.42 | [g2] | except for the "doing it yourself" that's what's being done |
| 13:59.48 | Tiersten | yeah |
| 14:00.48 | Tiersten | Assuming you follow good practices and it's in a case, it's unlikely to fail anyway |
| 14:00.58 | [g2] | nod. |
| 14:04.46 | Tiersten | Getting a little distribution made up that does VPN or acts like a AP should help the popularity of it |
| 14:06.33 | [g2] | Tiersten, VPN is a possibility, I'd convert the RV082 with firmware first |
| 14:06.56 | [g2] | unless logging was required in which case it's a toss-up |
| 14:07.19 | [g2] | A transparent bridge / logger will be an option though |
| 14:07.45 | [g2] | I think the RV082 has the 533Mhz 425 and 16MB flash |
| 14:08.03 | [g2] | same basic price point $250-260 US |
| 14:08.19 | [g2] | Plus 8 extra ethernets |
| 14:10.04 | Tiersten | Just having something people can load and then play I mean |
| 14:10.07 | [g2] | I chrooted into statically built nslu2 recovery partition |
| 14:10.25 | [g2] | that's the whole point |
| 14:10.45 | [g2] | I'm hoping I don't totally lose my shirt/pants/etc.... |
| 14:10.55 | [g2] | socks |
| 14:11.18 | [g2] | I think it makes total sense, but time will tell |
| 14:11.59 | Tiersten | The CF, it in IDE mode? |
| 14:12.14 | [g2] | think so |
| 14:16.21 | rwhitby | [g2]: will the case stand vertically? |
| 14:16.35 | [g2] | for you it will |
| 14:16.39 | Tiersten | heh |
| 15:36.47 | JMunakra | hi g2 |
| 15:39.08 | [g2] | hey jacques |
| 15:39.10 | [g2] | doh! |
| 15:39.13 | [g2] | hey JMunakra |
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