| 00:55.28 | *** join/#openjtag Tiersten (~tman@Tiersten.nslu2-linux) |
| 01:02.22 | [g2] | Tiersten, do you program Altera FPGAs ? |
| 01:02.46 | Tiersten | I've got the stuff for it but haven't done for a looooooong time |
| 01:03.09 | dyoung | [g2] got something brewing? |
| 01:03.10 | [g2] | are you not interested in doing that ? |
| 01:03.39 | [g2] | dyoung, you know me, I've always got something brewing :) |
| 01:04.14 | dyoung | Cool. |
| 01:04.21 | dyoung | Dont forget about me! |
| 01:04.30 | dyoung | I'm always looking for "stuff". |
| 01:04.38 | dyoung | to do/play with. |
| 01:05.19 | [g2] | I'll *never* forget about the the MAN dyoung |
| 01:06.30 | dyoung | Cool. But you know lotta stuff can happen when one completely disappears for 2+ weeks. |
| 01:07.02 | [g2] | you could disappear for 2 year or 2 decades and I'll still remember you |
| 01:07.19 | dyoung | I'm still boggling over the concept. Joe Laborer in mainland china makes around $6/day . I mean although the cost of living is lower there... It still boggles my mind. |
| 01:08.12 | [g2] | well I think wired had and article a couple years ago that said the average work earned $200 a year, but saved 33% |
| 01:12.45 | Tiersten | not interested in doing what? |
| 01:14.38 | [g2] | I'd really like to get OpenJTAG rolling for ARM/Xscale |
| 01:14.49 | Tiersten | ah. yeah. openjtag has kind of stalled |
| 01:14.56 | Tiersten | I thought we were going to use the FTDI chips? |
| 01:15.01 | Tiersten | what happened about that anyway? |
| 01:15.10 | [g2] | dunno. |
| 01:15.31 | [g2] | I've got a new more expensive and useful idea |
| 01:15.35 | Tiersten | Oh? |
| 01:15.41 | Tiersten | Spill the beans! |
| 01:16.29 | [g2] | http://www.altera.com/products/devkits/altera/kit-nios_eval_1C12.html?f=hp&k=t1 |
| 01:17.21 | [g2] | They've got 2 2x10 headers on the board and ethernet |
| 01:17.24 | [g2] | and memory |
| 01:17.29 | dyoung | sorry, the FTDI idea stalling is kind of my fault. |
| 01:17.55 | [g2] | One could connect the 2x10 directly up to the standard 2x10 Arm/Xscale header |
| 01:18.25 | [g2] | We could put the GDB we interface running on the NIOS and talking directly to the FPGA |
| 01:18.34 | [g2] | which controls the JTAG interface |
| 01:18.44 | Tiersten | It's a significant jump however for price |
| 01:18.59 | [g2] | The Abatrons are $2500 |
| 01:19.27 | [g2] | and stuff like some SW that runs on top of it is like ANOTHER $2500 |
| 01:19.39 | dyoung | Xilinx will be coming out with the new lowpower spartan 3E eval kit soon for $149. http://www.xilinx.com/products/spartan3e/s3eboards.htm |
| 01:19.57 | dyoung | no NIOS-like processor though. |
| 01:20.07 | Tiersten | One minor thing is that everybody has to get that eval kit |
| 01:20.16 | Tiersten | you can't just make up your own board for cheaper |
| 01:20.49 | dyoung | Heck, even that altera board only has a "eval license" for NIOS. |
| 01:20.59 | Tiersten | Thats what I mean |
| 01:21.14 | Tiersten | I can't remember what exactly the eval one entails I think it might be slightly crippled |
| 01:21.28 | Tiersten | It's def soemthing you can't distribute |
| 01:21.55 | Tiersten | Somebody made a GPL NIOS core but it violated the patents/copyright/whatever from Altera so it was taken down |
| 01:22.37 | [g2] | You can get the EDK/SDK for the NIOS stuff for like $500 |
| 01:22.46 | Tiersten | The eval one is time limited |
| 01:22.50 | [g2] | you can spin a raw bit file and distribute it for free |
| 01:22.54 | Tiersten | This is getting expensive fast though |
| 01:22.59 | dyoung | In that case, the xilinx S3E will be cheaper. |
| 01:23.00 | [g2] | once Altera rubber stamps it |
| 01:23.07 | Tiersten | Every dev has to get the eval kit + EDK |
| 01:23.23 | [g2] | no, ppl only need eval kits |
| 01:23.33 | [g2] | one maybe two ppl need the EDK |
| 01:23.33 | Tiersten | No. Dev as in the people working on OpenJTAG |
| 01:23.49 | [g2] | no, the vast majority of the stuff will be drivers |
| 01:23.59 | Tiersten | I guess... |
| 01:24.05 | [g2] | Host side and on the target board running NIOS |
| 01:24.19 | [g2] | there only needs to be a simple FPGA API |
| 01:24.37 | [g2] | dyoung, the new S3 look interesting |
| 01:26.37 | [g2] | The USB 2.0 Phy+Controller is very interesting |
| 01:30.31 | Tiersten | Isn't the NIOS devkit $1000? |
| 01:30.58 | dyoung | According to the website it is. |
| 01:31.07 | Tiersten | Had a license for one at a previous job |
| 01:31.18 | Tiersten | Ah I know why I remember talking about the EDK in here |
| 01:31.30 | Tiersten | ka6sox wanted to use a microblaze which IS part of the EDK |
| 01:31.38 | dyoung | right. |
| 01:31.46 | *** join/#openjtag [g2] (~g2@g2.nslu2-linux) |
| 01:31.54 | Tiersten | [g2]: You need the NIOS devkit not the EDK |
| 01:31.59 | Tiersten | EDK is for MicroBlaze |
| 01:32.29 | Tiersten | ka6sox was looking into it ages ago. Thats why I remember talking to dyoung and ka6sox about it |
| 01:32.42 | Tiersten | NIOS kit is $1000 |
| 01:34.19 | Tiersten | dyoung: You're back now? :) |
| 01:34.59 | [g2] | Tiersten, it's lik $500 |
| 01:35.15 | Tiersten | The EDK is $500 |
| 01:35.30 | Tiersten | The nios devkit is just under $1000 |
| 01:35.44 | Tiersten | EDK is for MicroBlaze |
| 01:36.47 | dyoung | Tiersten, Yeah, I'm back connected now. ;-) |
| 01:36.48 | Tiersten | EDK is Xilinx... |
| 01:36.54 | Tiersten | NIOS is Altera... |
| 01:37.08 | Tiersten | dyoung: Where do you go anyway?? |
| 01:37.50 | [g2] | uBlaze is Xilinx |
| 01:37.57 | [g2] | NIOS is Altera |
| 01:38.08 | Tiersten | I know |
| 01:38.16 | Tiersten | Where is the EDK on the Altera site? |
| 01:38.38 | [g2] | Tiersten, you are being pedantic |
| 01:38.46 | Tiersten | Excuse me? |
| 01:39.35 | [g2] | http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pedantic |
| 01:39.45 | [g2] | a pedantic attention to details |
| 01:39.48 | Tiersten | Please point out where you can get a $500 EDK |
| 01:39.52 | Tiersten | Apart from the Xilinx one |
| 01:41.25 | [g2] | The devlopment kit is $995 |
| 01:41.44 | Tiersten | Fine. So long as we agree on that |
| 01:41.49 | [g2] | List |
| 01:42.07 | [g2] | I'm told that one can often get the NIOS kit free from the Altera Rep |
| 01:42.27 | dyoung | Tiersten, I came back from Central China. A very interesting place to see. |
| 01:42.38 | [g2] | Altera doesn't want a bunch of support calls, etc.... so for ppl with out a working relationship they often have to pay |
| 01:42.56 | dyoung | "Hey Joe Altera Rep, I'm The Man. Can you Hook me up with a NIOS License?" |
| 01:43.18 | dyoung | "And by the way, I knonw these other guys that need one too, can we share it?" |
| 01:43.48 | Tiersten | I've gotten free hardware out of Altera but never a totally free software license |
| 01:44.17 | [g2] | have you asked for the NIOS development kit sw ? |
| 01:44.19 | Tiersten | Last place I worked at they had a NIOS site license for 50% off but we bought a load of gear at the same time |
| 01:50.50 | Tiersten | dyoung: What were you doing in central china? |
| 01:52.55 | dyoung | Was on Holiday. |
| 01:53.03 | Tiersten | Nice. Have a good time? |
| 01:53.09 | dyoung | Its the time of the year for the Peony to bloom. |
| 01:53.20 | dyoung | Yeah, it was pretty interesting. |
| 01:53.45 | Tiersten | Must have been quite isolated? |
| 01:54.12 | dyoung | Some places were pretty out of the way. |
| 01:54.32 | Tiersten | No internet withdrawal symptoms? :) |
| 01:54.38 | Tiersten | Must...have...email.... |
| 01:54.40 | dyoung | But with a crazy bus driver, the city is always nearby. |
| 01:54.43 | dyoung | Actually no. |
| 01:54.52 | dyoung | I didnt think about email very much. |
| 01:54.57 | Tiersten | heh |
| 01:55.16 | dyoung | I did think about whether or not ka6sox got this thing working for me or not though. |
| 01:55.23 | dyoung | ~seen ka6sox |
| 01:55.25 | purl | ka6sox <~ka6sox@adsl-69-235-203-64.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #nslu2-linux, 3d 36m 52s ago, saying: 'wherever you are there is a red linksys'. |
| 01:55.25 | qbot | ka6sox <~ka6sox@ka6sox.nslu2-linux> was last seen on IRC in channel #openjtag, 5d 20h 20m 5s ago, saying: 'rats....'. |
| 01:55.35 | Tiersten | He's away until today actually... |
| 01:55.48 | Tiersten | ~seen ka6sox-office |
| 01:55.49 | purl | ka6sox-office is currently on #openjtag (1d 13h 47m 5s) #nslu2-linux (1d 13h 47m 5s) |
| 01:55.49 | qbot | ka6sox-office is currently on #openjtag (1d 13h 47m 7s) |
| 01:55.52 | Tiersten | erm |
| 01:56.00 | dyoung | ~lart qbot |
| 01:56.03 | Tiersten | that date the last time he said anything or the last time he joined? |
| 01:56.24 | dyoung | I think when he joined. |
| 01:56.26 | dyoung | ~seen dyoung |
| 01:56.27 | purl | dyoung is currently on #openjtag (2h 35m 38s) #nslu2-linux (2h 35m 38s) #oe (2h 35m 38s). Has said a total of 41 messages. Is idling for 1s |
| 01:56.27 | Tiersten | but anyway, he said he was going away for a few days and should be getting back today or tomorrow |
| 01:56.28 | qbot | dyoung is currently on #openjtag (2h 35m 38s). Has said a total of 30 messages. Is idling for 0s |
| 01:56.37 | Tiersten | yeah |
| 01:56.56 | dyoung | Ok cool, I'l be sure to bug him later then. ;-) |
| 01:58.13 | Tiersten | Yeah. He said he'll be away until Wednesday so expect to see him around tomorrow I guess |
| 02:58.04 | jacques | dyoung, !!!!! |
| 03:03.19 | jacques | dyoung, I'd like to talk to you when you get a chance |
| 05:34.23 | *** join/#openjtag ka6sox-away (~tking@adsl-66-159-198-116.dslextreme.com) |
| 06:46.10 | *** join/#openjtag JMunakra (~JMunakra@dsl-084-059-199-139.arcor-ip.net) |
| 08:17.28 | *** join/#openjtag ep1220 (~epIrc@gate.epatec.at) |
| 12:35.20 | *** join/#openjtag nslu2-log_ (dyoung@netblock-66-159-209-60.dslextreme.com) |
| 12:37.31 | *** join/#openjtag ka6sox-office (~tking@netblock-66-159-209-52.dslextreme.com) |
| 13:29.16 | *** join/#openjtag [g2] (~g2@g2.nslu2-linux) |
| 13:50.05 | *** join/#openjtag Tiersten_ (~tman@Tiersten.nslu2-linux) |
| 14:01.24 | ep1220 | [g2]: are You there? |
| 14:01.37 | [g2] | ep1220, yes I am :) |
| 14:01.49 | ep1220 | Do You have time to talk |
| 14:02.14 | [g2] | sure I'm around for a while, what up ? |
| 14:02.34 | ep1220 | was looking at the Spartan Board and the USB2 |
| 14:02.40 | [g2] | nod. |
| 14:02.48 | ep1220 | You said You have a USB2, right ? |
| 14:02.54 | [g2] | nod. |
| 14:03.19 | ep1220 | Did they include You the 8051 soureccode for the 68013 ? |
| 14:03.28 | [g2] | no. :( |
| 14:03.38 | ep1220 | too bad. |
| 14:03.39 | [g2] | it's on the chip |
| 14:03.59 | [g2] | I talked to them about that and they are really interested in releasing it |
| 14:04.21 | ep1220 | under what conditions ? |
| 14:04.23 | [g2] | actually the new platform that dyoung mentioned probably obsoletes this platform some |
| 14:06.59 | [g2] | they make hw, they are not really interested in giving away IP used in making that hw nor in becoming a sw co |
| 14:07.21 | ep1220 | new platform == new Spartan Starter Board ? |
| 14:08.51 | [g2] | http://www.xilinx.com/products/spartan3e/s3eboards.htm#ordering |
| 14:09.09 | [g2] | http://www.xilinx.com/products/spartan3e/s3eboards.htm#resources |
| 14:10.28 | ep1220 | I go looking |
| 14:14.03 | ep1220 | Sounds like the current board (more gates in FPGA?) + USB + network onBoard |
| 14:14.48 | [g2] | ep1220, exactly + extra memory 32MB and Flash and same price ($99 + 49 for USB) |
| 14:17.13 | ep1220 | speaking JTAG: the 68013 is not that fast at bitbanging |
| 14:17.15 | ep1220 | but the SPartan is a bit overkill for a TAP controller. |
| 14:17.50 | [g2] | ep1220, the S3 is, but it's cheap enough |
| 14:18.14 | [g2] | I don't have an abatron, but I hear they sell for $2500 US |
| 14:18.33 | [g2] | so a $250 board for professional developers is quite the bargin |
| 14:19.29 | [g2] | clearly a college kid would have a rough choice (mini IPod or dev kit) |
| 14:19.48 | [g2] | but I'm sure the true hackers would pick the right one :) |
| 14:19.59 | ep1220 | g2, This is a point. |
| 14:20.16 | ep1220 | You realize You could do JTAG debugging with the USB2 alone, if You can load Your own firmware ? |
| 14:20.54 | [g2] | ep1220, I realize you can by a PIC chip or and do this stuff |
| 14:21.10 | ep1220 | Digilent also has the 68013 in its USB cable (approx. 35$) - that might be the college solution :-) |
| 14:21.45 | [g2] | they also have a $19 parallel JTAG cable |
| 14:22.11 | [g2] | that's the one that works with OpenWinCE and takes 40+ minutes to dl the 256KB redboot |
| 14:23.38 | ep1220 | They claim this JTAG cable is up to 10 times faster than the parallel. |
| 14:24.18 | [g2] | nod. |
| 14:24.22 | [g2] | I'm sure it is |
| 14:25.47 | ep1220 | that might be worth the extra price (?) |
| 14:26.07 | [g2] | the usb ? |
| 14:26.17 | ep1220 | yes |
| 14:26.42 | [g2] | well except for the issue of it only works with xilinx headers yeah |
| 14:26.59 | [g2] | but that's a little wrinkle for general purpose use |
| 14:27.57 | [g2] | a sufficiently motivated individual could get the dev kit for the 68013 and reprogram the on-board memory to make it general pupose, but it be easier to just reporgram something else |
| 14:28.44 | Tiersten | I've got the EZUSB devkit already but I agree that it'd be better to just use something else |
| 14:28.45 | ep1220 | What You mean with "something else" ? |
| 14:29.24 | [g2] | something else like the fpga board |
| 14:31.44 | ep1220 | Whit the FPGA the USB2 can be used "as-is" ? |
| 14:34.37 | [g2] | the downloader ? |
| 14:34.39 | [g2] | yes |
| 14:35.03 | [g2] | It's an enabler for programming their devices |
| 14:35.10 | [g2] | 2x the cost 10x the speed |
| 14:39.04 | ep1220 | Your goal is primarily downloading/programming ? Debugging is less important ? |
| 14:40.02 | ka6sox-away | debugging very important |
| 14:41.04 | Tiersten | Hey ka6sox |
| 14:41.55 | ka6sox-away | hey...good morning |
| 14:43.06 | Tiersten | ka6sox-away: dyoung was looking for you last night |
| 14:43.54 | ka6sox-away | I saw that in the logs |
| 14:44.00 | Tiersten | k |
| 14:44.07 | ka6sox-away | thanks! |
| 14:44.22 | Tiersten | np |
| 14:44.40 | Tiersten | Nothing eventful seems to have happened whilst you were away |
| 14:46.10 | ka6sox-away | better than the whole world falling down! |
| 14:46.19 | Tiersten | Yeah |
| 14:46.21 | Tiersten | :) |
| 14:49.29 | [g2] | ep1220, longer-term debugging is the key |
| 14:49.59 | [g2] | ka6sox-away, wb |
| 14:50.11 | ka6sox-away | [g2], thanks. |
| 14:50.24 | ka6sox-away | I must have walked 20 miles |
| 14:50.48 | [g2] | exercise is good (tm |
| 14:50.51 | [g2] | ) |
| 14:51.08 | ep1220 | g2: looked at the USB2 Ref.Man, there is an API, so coding a stub for a debugger should be possible |
| 14:52.59 | [g2] | ep1220, that's a Windows API right ? |
| 14:53.28 | [g2] | that works with the Adept sw on Windows correct ? |
| 14:55.18 | ep1220 | g2: Yes windows. I understand You can send Your own data/messages to the FPGA. |
| 14:55.39 | ep1220 | g2: (but the Manual is not very detailed, looks more like a sales-brochure) |
| 14:55.58 | [g2] | well unfortuatnely I'm pretty much a Linux only user |
| 14:56.51 | [g2] | I may break down to run some FPGA tools on Windows, but I've been pretty Windows free for 2+ years and don't expect to be going back anytime soon |
| 14:57.06 | Tiersten | It shouldn't be too hard to work out the protocol. It can't be anything really complicated. usbsnoop would help |
| 14:57.37 | Tiersten | [g2]: You got the new webpack from Xilinx? It's Linux as well now. ka6sox has some reservations on how well it works tho |
| 14:58.30 | [g2] | Tiersten, no. I've been working on my soldering skills, bootloaders, and native compile environs |
| 14:59.10 | ep1220 | g2: Think, writing a Linux API is extra work, but no show-stopper |
| 14:59.11 | [g2] | however, I'm really stating to get ready to roll on OpenJTAG |
| 14:59.50 | Tiersten | He said he tried the full blown Linux version ages ago and it did some weird stuff on it generated. It didn't act the same way as the Windows version at all. |
| 14:59.55 | [g2] | ep1220, I'll be talking to a guy that I talked to yesterday that programs and ships the 68013 devices |
| 15:00.23 | [g2] | I'm sure he can make that generic cable for us with a header on the other end. |
| 15:01.00 | [g2] | Then we could start focusing on the just getting the real usb driver to control it running not futzing around with figuring out how something else works |
| 15:01.25 | ep1220 | g2: You mean the Xilinx/Digilent JTAG USB cable ? |
| 15:02.10 | [g2] | it'd be a different cable with a standard 2x10 ARM/Xscale connector or pinout on it |
| 15:02.16 | [g2] | not made by Digilent Inc. |
| 15:02.23 | [g2] | but very similar |
| 15:05.08 | ep1220 | g2: sounds interesting |
| 15:20.20 | JMunakra | Tiersten: Have you tried jelie with your EzUSB board? |
| 15:20.24 | JMunakra | hey guys |
| 15:20.46 | [g2] | hey |
| 15:21.05 | JMunakra | ep1220: what USB API have you been talking about? |
| 15:21.45 | ep1220 | Jmunakra: USB/PC to Digilent/Spartan+USB2 |
| 15:23.16 | JMunakra | So, you mean FTDI API? |
| 15:24.33 | ep1220 | Jmunakra: no. the Xilinx/Spartan FPGA. Would need to be programmed to work as JTAG-TAP ( a fast one, however) |
| 15:24.56 | JMunakra | Oh, OK. It has the 68013 |
| 15:27.41 | JMunakra | Is that an EzUSB family part too? |
| 15:27.57 | ka6sox-office | yes |
| 15:28.10 | JMunakra | How much RAM/ROM does it have? |
| 15:29.30 | ep1220 | Cmunakra:16K Onchip RAM, no ROM |
| 15:29.52 | ep1220 | Cmunakra: plus 8x512bytes FIFO for USB |
| 15:34.09 | JMunakra | Hm, that might not be enough to implement a debugger. Maybe only the bit shifting can be implemented... |
| 15:36.02 | JMunakra | I tend to favor a FPGA solution also... |
| 15:40.21 | ka6sox-office | should be faster. |
| 15:40.35 | ep1220 | Jmunakra: i am confident a debugger fits in. |
| 15:40.47 | ka6sox-office | the Spartan 3e will have USB support. |
| 15:40.55 | ka6sox-office | (the demo card here in the US.) |
| 15:41.04 | ka6sox-office | $149USD |
| 15:45.08 | JMunakra | Are there any free IP cores for JTAG controllers yet? |
| 15:46.00 | [g2] | there's a JTAG core at opencores but its for the 1200 |
| 15:46.20 | JMunakra | yeah, that's a DSU (Debug support unit) |
| 15:46.38 | JMunakra | The TAP part might be useful though |
| 17:00.21 | *** join/#openjtag kas11 (~kas11@193-63.73-24.tampabay.res.rr.com) |
| 17:21.19 | ka6sox-office | Hi kas11 |
| 17:37.13 | *** part/#openjtag ep1220 (~epIrc@gate.epatec.at) |
| 17:52.31 | kas11 | hiya ka6sox-office |
| 18:07.00 | ka6sox-office | how are you doing |
| 18:07.18 | ka6sox-office | (I was in the lab working on something) |
| 18:13.29 | kas11 | doing ok here...suffering from a total lack of motivation but otherwise fine...how are things out that way? |
| 18:28.05 | ka6sox-office | "interesting" |
| 18:31.34 | kas11 | that trumps boring ;) |
| 18:34.09 | ka6sox-office | this is in the Chinese proverb sense |
| 18:35.21 | kas11 | understood :) |
| 18:36.50 | ka6sox-office | everytime I try to get out of this one profession I keep getting dragged back into it kicking and screaming |
| 18:39.17 | kas11 | I hope it isn't like me..."friends" bringing by broken, infested Windoze computers for me to fix gratis |
| 18:39.48 | kas11 | I guess I don't say ***NO*** with enough authority |
| 18:47.35 | ka6sox-office | a loooooong time ago when I started my business I made a policy of NOT taking in Consumer type devices...I didn't have access to the necessary Documentation/Parts. |
| 18:47.42 | ka6sox-office | and I just made it a policy |
| 18:52.20 | kas11 | well, since I don't have a business, my time is free...just ask anyone who has dragged their cruft in here |
| 18:54.02 | ka6sox-office | ask my poor wife who has a 3.5 yr old if she is "free"! |
| 18:54.36 | kas11 | I have a computer that is on its 3rd complete rebuild now...an Epox 8rda+ that wedges bios because the owner won't spend the money to buy a decent HSF and case/PSW...this $30 "480 watt PSU" may be a problem |
| 18:57.11 | kas11 | I need to move and not leave a forwarding address...if I asked any of those "friends" to help with the move, I know they would all be busy so I won't have to worry about them finding me |
| 20:00.03 | ka6sox-office | lol! |
| 20:22.30 | *** join/#openjtag prpplague (~billybob@200.50.88.22) |