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| 07:50.01 | mckoan | good morning |
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| 09:10.25 | mort | Why doesn't the SDK include static libraries by default? Doesn't an SDK without the necessary static libraries kind of defeat the point? |
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| 10:35.02 | LetoThe2nd | mort: nope, it doesn't defeat the point. |
| 10:36.36 | mru | depends on which point |
| 10:39.29 | LetoThe2nd | mru: hey, mort is talking about THE point.how dare you question it. |
| 10:39.40 | mru | there are many points |
| 10:39.47 | mru | ask any hedgehog |
| 10:40.30 | LetoThe2nd | but... but..... THE POINT! |
| 10:40.50 | mort | wait isn't the point of an SDK that you can use it to cross compile software for the target |
| 10:41.12 | LetoThe2nd | mort: it is one of the primary use cases for sure. |
| 10:41.49 | mort | so if there's a static library which is necessary to cross compile your software for the target, that static library should probably be in the SDK right |
| 10:41.52 | mru | LetoThe2nd: there are no less than 8 points in that statement, 9 if you count the one in the exclamation mark |
| 10:42.11 | mort | I don't see how static libraries are different from dynamic libraries in principle here |
| 10:42.50 | mru | an argument can be made for including static libs |
| 10:43.02 | mru | but not including them doesn't mean the sdk is useless |
| 10:43.08 | LetoThe2nd | mort: you have to realize that you are talking about the specific use case of "needing static libraries". this is not the default at the moment. |
| 10:43.12 | mru | (well, any more so than SDKs are in general) |
| 10:43.35 | LetoThe2nd | it might be debated of course, but its certainly not "without static libs an SDK is useless" |
| 10:43.51 | mort | LetoThe2nd: can you explain why a shared library should be included but why a static one shouldn't |
| 10:44.15 | mort | the SDK is effectively useless when some of the core libraries which are needed to work with the target is a static library |
| 10:44.46 | mru | shouldn't != isn't |
| 10:44.48 | LetoThe2nd | mort: can you explain why you are nagging me over a default value decision that you can easily adjust to you liking with about 20 keystrokes in a configuratio nfile? |
| 10:44.59 | mort | yes |
| 10:45.06 | mort | I am trying to understand the reasoning |
| 10:45.15 | mort | you're not trying to explain the reasoning |
| 10:45.35 | LetoThe2nd | mort: you are defining your use case that includes that one magic static library as the default. it doesn't apply to the rest of use. i live happily without static libs. |
| 10:45.41 | LetoThe2nd | that is the explanation. |
| 10:45.44 | mru | if it helps put your mind at ease, just pretend they flipped a coin over what the default would be |
| 10:46.11 | LetoThe2nd | so if you willingly decide to use static libs, then that decision also includes the duty to adjust the sdk as needed. |
| 10:46.23 | mort | but what's the essential difference between static and shared libraries which makes it such that including all shared objects is a reasonable default and excluding all static libraries is a reasonable default |
| 10:46.38 | LetoThe2nd | mru: well i would argue that it is more "usual-distro" like, but the coin flip makes sense too. |
| 10:46.47 | mru | mort: it works for 99.98% of users |
| 10:46.58 | LetoThe2nd | mru: ++ |
| 10:46.58 | mort | that's not an answer though |
| 10:47.05 | LetoThe2nd | it is. |
| 10:47.08 | mort | no |
| 10:47.09 | mru | and yet it's the truth |
| 10:47.29 | mru | look, you're _special_ |
| 10:47.36 | mru | rejoice! |
| 10:48.07 | LetoThe2nd | mort: feel free to write a sob story mail to oe-architecture where you go *****ich about feeling neglected because the standard use case doesn't work for you. hooray, you add to diversity! you're one of the 0.2%! |
| 10:48.23 | LetoThe2nd | should have lunch. |
| 10:48.24 | mort | if I was trying to formulate what an SDK is for, I would've said that it's a collection of libraries, headers and toolchains useful for compiling software for the target |
| 10:48.38 | mort | I don't understand where the difference between static and shared libraries comes in |
| 10:49.00 | mort | LetoThe2nd: I'm trying to understand something, I'm not bitching about anything |
| 10:49.15 | mort | this "community" is super unwelcoming apparently, fuck you all |
| 10:49.51 | LetoThe2nd | i admit i don't want to f*** all. |
| 10:50.08 | mort | I'm not doing something wrong by trying to understand why something is as it is, and your implication that I am "nagging" because I'm asking for why something is the way it is, is actually horrible |
| 10:50.20 | mort | this is how people learn about your project, right? |
| 10:51.01 | mort | here's what I think is happening: You don't know the answer, but you're a really insecure always online person who's afraid to admit it, so you blame me for asking |
| 10:51.17 | mort | fuck you |
| 10:51.22 | LetoThe2nd | no. we have both made the point that there was a decision that obviously suits the majority of users. so its a sensible default. as any other use case can be covered by adjusting documented settings, i really don't get the porblem. |
| 10:51.35 | LetoThe2nd | mort: please watch your language. |
| 10:51.39 | mort | no, fuck you |
| 10:51.54 | LetoThe2nd | i see. thank you. |
| 10:53.12 | mort | we both know, I hope, that "it happens to work the way it is now" is in no way an explanation for the reasoning which went into the choice to make it the way it is |
| 10:53.47 | mort | it might totally be that there is no such reason, that someone just literally flipped a coin, but I assume there is a reason, that someone thought about this for at least a second when deciding what goes into an SDK |
| 10:54.35 | mort | LetoThe2nd: you really shouldn't go around saying that anyone who asks a question you don't know the answer to is "bitching" or "nagging" about anything |
| 10:56.47 | mort | I'm just going to take your word for it though, that the openembedded project doesn't actually consider its choices when deciding how these systems work, that all choices are just made on a whim |
| 10:56.53 | mru | the reason has been explained to you |
| 10:56.57 | mort | no it hasn't |
| 10:57.03 | mru | it's not our problem that you refuse to accept the explanation |
| 10:57.21 | mort | it has been explained to me that the way it's now happens to work for most people, that's not an explanation for why the choice was made in the first place |
| 10:58.13 | mru | put it this way then: the reason for the default setting is that it works for most people |
| 10:58.49 | mort | unless you're going to claim that when designing the SDK part of the feature, someone actively went out and gathered statistics about how many people it would impact to include static libraries, and concluded that not enough people are impacted by the lack of static libraries for them to be worth whatever cost they have, you're wrong |
| 10:59.26 | mru | the only claim I'm making that you are being silly |
| 10:59.57 | mru | in the time you've been bitching here, you could have built the damn sdk with whatever options you want |
| 11:00.02 | mort | no, you're making the claim that the choice was made to exclude static libraries because the person who made that decision knew that not including static libraries wouldn't affect many people |
| 11:00.18 | mort | I have built the SDK with the options I want, I'm just trying to understand |
| 11:00.58 | mru | I wasn't there when the default were set, so I can't say for sure what whoever did it was thinking |
| 11:01.06 | mort | the answer "I don't know why that choice was made" would be 100% acceptable, but that's not what you're doing, you're claiming that the choice was made because the person who made the choice knew that not including static libraries would impact few people |
| 11:01.39 | mru | based on my own experience, I can say that static libraries are rarely required |
| 11:01.59 | mru | it's reasonable to assume that the person setting that default value had similar experiences |
| 11:02.48 | mru | any reasonable person with typical experience in the field would likely make the same choice |
| 11:03.29 | mru | there's nothing more to it |
| 11:03.34 | mru | there is no sinister plot |
| 11:03.44 | mort | who said anything about sinister |
| 11:04.17 | mru | nobody, I just wanted to make that clear |
| 11:04.34 | mru | and to be perfectly clear: there is no plot at all, sinister or otherwise |
| 11:05.01 | mru | if a lot of people complained about the default, it would probably be changed |
| 11:05.10 | mru | why don't you start a petition? |
| 11:06.01 | mort | it's just surprising to me because if I was making the decision, my thought process would've been something like this: The SDK is likely to be used to compile the packages in the distro for local development; if some packages in the distro depend on other packages which only provide static libraries, those packages will probably depend on those |
| 11:06.01 | mort | static libraries; therefore, if there are packages which only provide static libraries, the SDK will probably be used in a way which depends on those static libraries |
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| 11:06.28 | mort | what would be valuable is to know which step in that chain of reasoning is incorrect, because that might imply that I'm using the SDK feature incorrectly |
| 11:06.36 | mort | that's why I asked for the reasoning in the first place |
| 11:06.42 | mru | which package provides only static libraries? |
| 11:06.51 | mort | some of my own libraries |
| 11:07.09 | mru | well, the person choosing the defaults couldn't possibly have known that, now could he? |
| 11:07.12 | mort | there are reasons, I won't go into them here but they basically boil down to "Google code is messy" |
| 11:07.46 | mru | I'm not disputing your reasons |
| 11:08.01 | mort | the person choosing the defaults would know that static libraries exist, and make a choice about whether to include static libraries or not, and they would have known that the static libraries may be needed to compile the packages which depend on those static libraries |
| 11:08.40 | mru | are there any static-only packages in the OE tree? |
| 11:08.47 | mort | excluding static libraries kind of implies that the SDK is not meant to be used to compile the software which the distribution includes |
| 11:08.53 | mort | I don't know, probably not |
| 11:09.07 | mru | I don't know of any either |
| 11:09.42 | mru | which means not including them _by default_ is a reasonable choice |
| 11:10.16 | mort | only if we assume that breaking distros which depend on staitc-only libraries by default is a reasonable choice |
| 11:10.37 | mru | if you're creating such a distro, it's your job to change the default |
| 11:10.47 | mort | which it might be, but it seems like a weird choice since including the static (or at least static-only) libraries doesn't seem to have a big cost |
| 11:11.42 | mru | why don't you run git blame and find out who set the default, then go and harrass them? |
| 11:13.01 | mort | this wasn't meant to be harassment, it _was meant_ to be a very simple question ("why was this done this way?") with two possible outcomes; "I don't know" (possibly "I don't know but I think X") or an actual reason from someone who knows either the history or the assumptions which went into the choices involved |
| 11:13.47 | mort | but asking that question is apparently nagging and bitching |
| 11:14.12 | mort | LetoThe2nd: I'm curious how including static libraries would "defeat the point" though |
| 11:14.13 | mru | you were given a simple answer: it works for the vast majority of cases, the rest can easily change it |
| 11:14.28 | mru | you chose not to accept that explanation, demaning a "better" one |
| 11:14.35 | mort | that implies that there's a very very good reason why it is the way it is, that making the other choice would make the SDK less useful somehow |
| 11:14.38 | mort | and I want to know why |
| 11:15.12 | mort | mru: "it happens to work" isn't a reason for why the decision was made that way, yes |
| 11:15.33 | mru | that's not what I said |
| 11:16.22 | mort | LetoThe2nd's answer that including static libraries would defeat the point of an SDK implies that there's a good underlying reason which is broader than "excluding static libraries doesn't affect that many people" |
| 11:16.35 | mort | I want that reason |
| 11:16.49 | mru | he didn't say that |
| 11:17.19 | mort | sorry, you're right, I misread that part. |
| 11:17.57 | mru | for most people, the static libs would be nothing but waste of space |
| 11:18.29 | mort | sure, that's a reasonable explanation |
| 11:18.33 | mru | if you need them, you can easily enable them |
| 11:19.08 | mort | but asking the question in the first place is wrong, right, because we wouldn't want people to learn things about this project would we now |
| 11:19.42 | mort | them naggers bitching about wanting to know things about this project |
| 11:21.11 | mru | do you think being rude is a good way of getting answers? |
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| 11:21.43 | mort | no, I'm not trying to get answers anymore |
| 11:21.57 | mort | beside, the one you just provided is pretty reasonable |
| 11:23.37 | mort | I was already nagging after the 4th message so being nice wouldn't have been a better way I presume |
| 11:24.02 | mort | don't pretend _I'm_ the one who started out as rude here |
| 11:24.17 | mru | there's no need to pretend |
| 11:24.33 | mort | I'm glad we agree |
| 11:24.55 | mru | I mean, pretending is for things that aren't true |
| 11:25.05 | RP | mort: a) please do watch your language. b) static libs were disabled by default in OE a few years ago as they're old fashioned and not used by a majority of users |
| 11:25.49 | RP | mort: they take up a lot of space, take time to build and package and if nobody is using them, there is little point enabling by default. They've been disabled for several years, we get few complains. You can also choose to enable them, they should still work fine |
| 11:26.18 | mort | that's all very reasonable |
| 11:26.19 | RP | mort: there is a tiny subset of static libs that are still built and included for libgcc/libc pieces are those are actively used |
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