| 00:03.43 | Kinesia | Dan_0014: on the general page of the Advanced options is "See home faction data everywhere unless at neutral AH" |
| 00:06.52 | Dan_0014 | bleeter, i just downloaded the newest "full" package, i'll have to check out automagic. thanks! |
| 00:07.11 | Dan_0014 | kinesia, THANK YOU SO MUCH... that sounds like exactly what i'm looking for |
| 00:07.15 | Dan_0014 | =) |
| 00:07.51 | Kinesia | it's not quite as useful as the old option since you can't check your main prices while looking at neutral stuff, but it's a start! |
| 00:11.43 | Dan_0014 | well, my realm's neutral AH seems woefully underutilized, so it does everything i'm looking for at this point |
| 00:11.56 | Dan_0014 | the neutral AH data is just worthless... |
| 00:13.38 | Dan_0014 | thanks again for your help =) |
| 00:13.46 | Kinesia | no problem, good luck! |
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| 01:18.10 | mark4 | is it possible to search the AH for all items posted by a specified player? |
| 01:18.22 | RockSlice | in the next build, it will be :) |
| 01:18.44 | RockSlice | you'll use the General search of SearchUI |
| 01:21.42 | mark4 | cool |
| 01:21.59 | mark4 | cuz on my server aluren pracically OWNS the AH :) |
| 01:22.07 | mark4 | mostly for gems but.. |
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| 03:15.51 | theshadow | Ok I have my resolution correct but the screen dimensions are off (I have to scroll the screen to get to the shutdown) |
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| 04:50.10 | norgjira | Bug 03BCNT-177 10kandoko: Re-factor BeanCounter matcher to reduce CPU time.06 (In Progress) http://jira.norganna.org/browse/BCNT-177 |
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| 04:55.59 | CIA-50 | auctioneer: 03kandoko * r3239 10BeanCounter/MatchBeanCount.lua: |
| 04:55.59 | CIA-50 | auctioneer: Fixes BCNT-177 |
| 04:55.59 | CIA-50 | auctioneer: Tweaked Matcher-BeanCount table lookups to reduce time to get results. Average 50% improvement. See ticket for testing details. |
| 04:59.50 | Kandoko | ^^^^^That improvement is only if you are using the date range filter in the matcher. |
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| 05:07.10 | norgjira | Bug 03BCNT-177 10kandoko: Re-factor BeanCounter matcher to reduce CPU time.06 (Resolved/Fixed) http://jira.norganna.org/browse/BCNT-177 |
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| 06:45.08 | norgjira | New Feature 03ASER-53 10testleK: Make snatch searcher06 (In Progress) http://jira.norganna.org/browse/ASER-53 |
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| 09:08.12 | norgjira | Bug 03AUIS-7 10zespri: ItemSuggest doesn't list AucAdvanced as dependency06 (Open) http://jira.norganna.org/browse/AUIS-7 |
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| 17:03.05 | PlasmaHH | for snatch, is there a way to resize the column widhts? the bag contents is by far too small to display anything useful here |
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| 19:25.56 | Nechckn_SomeZs | Hello Again, Well, we are about to branch Advanced's Beta and we would like comments, based on the current dev build about... many things. See http://forums.norganna.org/discussion/7509/auctioneer-advanced-5x-betabuilds/ for more. |
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| 19:53.32 | Nechckn | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:58.13 | norgjira | NorgWiki 03Auctioneer/5.0/Modules API 10RockSlice: moved explanation of GetItemPDF(), so it doesn't look like it gets called to clear an item http://wiki.norganna.org/Auctioneer/5.0/Modules_API |
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| 20:48.42 | laeg | guys would you say it's fair to say an items worth is it's market value? |
| 20:49.11 | Nechckn | it depends... but sure, that's one way to look at it |
| 20:49.28 | Nechckn | I use market for most items |
| 20:49.59 | Nechckn | the others, though good for some cases, are more "specialized" where market mushes them all together for a fun average |
| 20:50.35 | RockSlice | I actually disagree. The market value is what people posting on the AH think it's worth |
| 20:51.04 | Kandoko | PlasmaHH: http://jira.norganna.org/browse/BTMS-140 Already done, Should be in next release. |
| 20:51.33 | RockSlice | it may be equal to the worth of the item, but it could be higher if someone's inflating the market, or lower if someone's dumping |
| 20:51.35 | PlasmaHH | good |
| 20:53.01 | RockSlice | to get an item's "true worth", you'd have to compare prices for all similar items in a range of levels, and also take into account who it's intended for |
| 20:53.46 | Nechckn | true, RockSlice but if you are vying for the same sellers, then the "worth" sort of changes along with the pack- and, btw, allow me to correct that- I use it to help price new items- the rest is what RockSlice just typed. ;-) |
| 20:54.39 | laeg | i knew this would be a fun conversation :) |
| 20:54.43 | Nechckn | the actual amount could very greatly- and often some things should be more but are just sold for less... same goes for other things where they really shouldn't be worth what they are being sold for, but they sell at those prices. |
| 20:54.51 | laeg | i feel the term worth is void |
| 20:55.00 | RockSlice | worth is relative |
| 20:55.04 | laeg | can an item really have an actual worth? |
| 20:55.13 | laeg | RockSlice: relative in which case void |
| 20:55.19 | Nechckn | only to you- not to anyone else =) |
| 20:55.25 | laeg | there can't really be a universal worth |
| 20:55.36 | RockSlice | i view "worth" as being the amount a particular person will pay for it |
| 20:55.42 | Nechckn | a 19 that pays 25g for anything is simply stupid imnsho |
| 20:55.47 | laeg | but different people will pay different amounts rockslice |
| 20:56.11 | RockSlice | true, so you have to decide who you're targetting |
| 20:56.24 | Nechckn | but, they will.. so it's all about symantics, really... market value is market value.. the rest is all relative. |
| 20:56.42 | RockSlice | take water. some people will only pay cents per liter. it is worth little |
| 20:56.51 | Nechckn | especially on a "new" server where transfers have not been allowed as of yet. |
| 20:57.04 | RockSlice | however for others, the water they drink is partly a fashion statement |
| 20:57.23 | RockSlice | so companies target them with $400 bottles of water |
| 20:57.42 | Nechckn | no one has money, so the prices are "low" and therefor the market value is less... simply due to the amount of $$ folks have in their pockets. |
| 20:57.52 | Nechckn | And the water thing is a good example.. |
| 20:57.58 | laeg | yes but when i mean worth i mean universal worth |
| 20:58.22 | Nechckn | especially now, when the environmental folks are up in arms, so.. the water of old is not so shiek as before |
| 20:58.33 | laeg | i feel a universal worth either doesn't exist or if it does exist it is the market value regardless of whether everyone agrees it is really the 'worth' |
| 20:58.43 | laeg | al gore over here :) |
| 20:59.13 | RockSlice | universal worth... would you equate that as being "the minimum worth that anyone can get from it"? |
| 20:59.22 | Nechckn | I even have seen adverts with some celebs drinking tap water... talking about how it's "not cool" and the various city ordinances and all making that water that was $5.00 each, not so attractive. |
| 21:00.49 | Nechckn | Kinesia actually had some good comments about worth and trying to "figure out" what it is... |
| 21:00.52 | RockSlice | in which case, an item's universal worth is the vendor price |
| 21:03.00 | Nechckn | Hmm.. I'd say it's somewhere between Vendor and the max someone will pay |
| 21:04.03 | Nechckn | but... that max changes based on so many inputs, it's really not all that helpful- watching the market and knowing that weekends will see prices go one way compared to mid-week is about as good as one can get. |
| 21:04.05 | laeg | RockSlice: why minimum rather than maximum? |
| 21:04.14 | laeg | if someone doesn't fully utilize an item that's their business |
| 21:04.33 | Nechckn | he was saying the minimum worth.. so in game, that would be the vendor price |
| 21:04.34 | RockSlice | because there are people that pay $400 for a half-liter bottle of water |
| 21:06.02 | laeg | what? |
| 21:06.09 | laeg | in zimbabwe? |
| 21:06.39 | Nechckn | unfortunately that's about the only value that you can put your finger on- the rest is all based on historical activity- unless you know that the next patch will make the demand for XXXXX jump. |
| 21:06.43 | RockSlice | http://www.blingh2o.com/ |
| 21:07.11 | RockSlice | i exagerated a bit. it's only $40 |
| 21:08.39 | Nechckn | well.. you can get a 24 pack for $24 |
| 21:08.47 | Nechckn | but those are tacky plastic... ewwww |
| 21:09.16 | RockSlice | if you want to get really theoretical, the worth of an item is where the supply and demand meet |
| 21:09.28 | RockSlice | figuring that out in WoW becomes a headache |
| 21:09.55 | RockSlice | given that there are some things that have an infinite supply |
| 21:10.29 | Nechckn | well... technically everything has an infinite supply, just that it takes longer to get more of item 2 than item 1 or 3 |
| 21:10.51 | RockSlice | not infinite, because it take time to farm it |
| 21:11.08 | RockSlice | whereas you can buy vendor items as fast as you want |
| 21:11.34 | Nechckn | but the possibility to get it is set.. so if everyone started going for Dude's Cool Sword, the market would have a whole bunch |
| 21:11.43 | RockSlice | you're dealing with how much you are willing to supply each week at that price |
| 21:12.17 | Nechckn | I'm just saying that the supply # is artificial, and subject to Blizz's whims |
| 21:12.23 | RockSlice | true |
| 21:12.41 | Nechckn | one item could be hard to get today, then when 80s show up, it would be much easier |
| 21:13.33 | RockSlice | i also suspect blizz occasionally varies the droprate on some items, based on how available they are at ah |
| 21:14.08 | RockSlice | eg the steel weapon chain pattern that people used to be willing to pay 1000g for |
| 21:14.19 | Nechckn | they do say as much in their "we will do what we want to control stuff" statements... I'd be interested to know if they do tinker in between patches |
| 21:14.36 | RockSlice | which is now adamantite? |
| 21:14.51 | Nechckn | most often it takes forever for folks to determine what the new % is... so I'm sure they could move that % up and down... |
| 21:15.35 | Nechckn | I mean, they drop it by 2%, who's gonna know? unless you are following super long term trends across all servers, I don't think you'd know. |
| 21:15.39 | RockSlice | i wish they'd up the droprate on some of the bodyparts... killing 20 murlocs and only getting 5 heads is rediculous |
| 21:16.16 | RockSlice | and very disturbing |
| 21:16.32 | Nechckn | Ha- I agree... some of the things are still crazy, like the "old world" rep items- for Furblog rep and all.. seems like they could up the drop rate alot |
| 21:17.09 | Nechckn | since not affect many, save for the 2% who choose to do those.. same with "argent dawn" and cenarion circle |
| 21:17.49 | Nechckn | You only get 5 murloc heads... because... you.. um, wreck the other 15 as you are killing them! |
| 21:17.54 | Nechckn | Yeah, that's the ticket. |
| 21:18.20 | RockSlice | I can't hit them carefully? |
| 21:18.36 | RockSlice | or kill them gently? |
| 21:18.41 | Nechckn | If you are only getting that sort of drop rate? Apparently not =) |
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| 21:42.00 | Arrowmaster | *sigh* wtf is with utf8 on pastey? |
| 21:42.08 | Arrowmaster | http://ace.pastey.net/91561 |
| 21:45.49 | Nechckn | eww... server's been having issues. Hold on |
| 21:49.27 | Nechckn | Arrowmaster seems to be okay- can you try it again, or is that a second/third try already? |
| 21:50.01 | Arrowmaster | tried again and didnt work |
| 21:50.05 | Arrowmaster | browser issue? |
| 21:50.24 | Nechckn | lemme try a couple others |
| 21:50.26 | Arrowmaster | would be weird if it is since its just utf8 |
| 21:50.49 | Arrowmaster | i mean browser issue with posting it now viewing |
| 21:50.50 | Arrowmaster | not |
| 21:52.38 | Arrowmaster | is overwriting cookie controlled? |
| 21:53.02 | Nechckn | can you send me the file? nechckn <at> Norganna org |
| 21:53.12 | Nechckn | lemme see if I can get it to go |
| 21:53.35 | *** join/#norganna JoBbZ (n=jobbz@75.111.29.239) |
| 21:53.37 | Nechckn | I tried a couple others and they seem ok... you're right it should be fine either way |
| 21:54.04 | Arrowmaster | yeah since its utf8 and not something weird like shift_jis |
| 21:54.30 | Arrowmaster | in which a difference between the client sending and the server would really be an issue i think |
| 21:55.52 | Nechckn | Yeah.. I don't know- that's why I wanted to try it and check the result... |
| 21:56.05 | Arrowmaster | sent |
| 21:58.31 | Arrowmaster | doesnt really make sense because utf8 is 8bit clean but somehow its getting jumbled before getting sent back to the client |
| 21:59.54 | Nechckn | bah.. it's looking like something is not going right.. it looks ok in webmail.. then when you add it to pastey it is surely jumbling. |
| 22:00.25 | Arrowmaster | what browser? |
| 22:00.40 | Arrowmaster | im using ff3 |
| 22:00.56 | Nechckn | well.. with FF3 and IE8 |
| 22:01.43 | Arrowmaster | btw your openid lib sucks |
| 22:02.05 | Nechckn | Ha... it's just in testing atm =) |
| 22:02.14 | Arrowmaster | doesnt work with openid 2.0 |
| 22:02.16 | Nechckn | but yeah, it's often not the best |
| 22:02.58 | Nechckn | Unfortunately to get into Pastey... we need the mighty Norgs or MentalPower|ZZzz |
| 22:02.59 | Arrowmaster | OpenID login error: |
| 22:02.59 | Arrowmaster | Error, could not redirect to =arrowmaster: |
| 22:02.59 | Arrowmaster | Cannot find OpenID Server TAG on Identity page. |
| 22:03.18 | Nechckn | and they're not on atm... I'll give them a yell when they come on, though |
| 22:04.21 | *** join/#norganna Rabbitbunny (n=Bunny@unaffiliated/rabbitbunny) |
| 22:05.03 | Nechckn | yeah.. the FF one is http://pastey.net/91566 |
| 22:05.10 | Nechckn | and that's looking a bit sickly |
| 22:05.17 | *** join/#norganna Shaone (i=4c717907@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-1513e824cd74f982) |
| 22:05.43 | Nechckn | http://pastey.net/91565 is IE8 |
| 22:06.06 | Nechckn | Both set to unicode |
| 22:06.37 | Nechckn | like I said.. it comes through via the text in webmail on IE8... once it goes into pastey.. it eats it |
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| 22:08.57 | Shaone | Any math whizzes here? I'm trying to figure out how to plot the price history of an item and get rid of any huge fluctuations (someone pricing far too low or high) |
| 22:08.59 | Arrowmaster | ive seen this a lot of places actually like comments on blogs where the server is correctly set to send headers saying utf8 and not iso8859-1 but comments have stuff like quotes messed up |
| 22:10.25 | Nechckn | we use a so-called Outlier algo in Advanced to keep any high prices out of the stats and such. |
| 22:10.54 | Nechckn | You may want to try a standard deviation- that's the other method we have in use to try and keep the highs/lows reasonable |
| 22:11.03 | Arrowmaster | high prices still get recorded though right? |
| 22:11.16 | Nechckn | Arrowmaster I know what you mean.. I'll have to hit them up when they come on to dig around |
| 22:11.24 | Nechckn | No.. they do not, if the Outlier is active |
| 22:11.25 | Shaone | I've taken a look at std dev, but that only tells you the variance of a set of numbers. It doesn't really help determine which to remove. |
| 22:12.05 | Nechckn | if the outlier is active, and a price comes in above the % that is set, then it is kicked back and not counted in the stats |
| 22:12.18 | Arrowmaster | yeah i see a major issue with that, if something is new and somebody puts it up super high and you scan it a few times then it would get stuck super high wouldnt it? |
| 22:12.44 | Shaone | Also what happens when a patch comes out like S4 that inflates the prices temporarily? |
| 22:12.55 | Nechckn | nope.. because if you look at it, there is a configurable set of data points needed to be reached before it kicks in, per item |
| 22:13.27 | Nechckn | so... if it's set to 10... then it will accept the first 10 data points, then start kicking out things that are too high |
| 22:13.28 | namuh1 | There are math libraries like the GNU library that you can use to do a least squares fit with a tolerance to discard too highly variant points |
| 22:14.24 | Nechckn | and, it's just a number to go along with the rest- if you know it's too high, you can manually set the price point via Appraiser and then go from there |
| 22:16.11 | Nechckn | Shaone if you take a look at the stats, they are not all that detailed- we more than welcome other stats as well |
| 22:16.24 | Nechckn | that's one of the nice parts about AucAdv, is the modularity |
| 22:17.10 | Shaone | Well I'm working on something else completely, http://realmdata.com/graph.php |
| 22:17.36 | Shaone | The huge spike in the average value is caused by an even bigger spike in the "high" value during that time. Not that the high values of an item are that important |
| 22:18.30 | Shaone | But say an item is bought out and the AH is empty and someone lists a few at 2-3x the price, I don't want to throw off the average too much |
| 22:19.36 | Nechckn | well.. that's where an outlier would come in handy- if the going average is 10 and you have it set for 200%... someone posts for 30- that 30 would get tossed |
| 22:19.44 | PlasmaHH | Shaone: that looks much nicer than mine... |
| 22:20.15 | Shaone | Alrighty |
| 22:20.41 | Nechckn | but more reasonable values are still allowed.. Many of the methods are spelled out nicely on wikipedia |
| 22:20.54 | Shaone | I'm reading about outlier right now |
| 22:21.04 | Nechckn | one of the few things that are usually checked, and double checked to be accurate |
| 22:21.29 | PlasmaHH | its funny how sometimes the algorithms from the stocks world work really well here and sometimes fail miserably... |
| 22:21.50 | Nechckn | well... it's all fake crap that Blizz can add or subtract at a whim |
| 22:22.26 | Nechckn | so, in that way, it's alot different- you don't have a known, steady supply since alot depends on Blizz, and the "interest" of the player base |
| 22:22.51 | Nechckn | where the stock market has other forces, those can usually be watched- here, it's sort of a guessing game |
| 22:23.06 | PlasmaHH | the stock market is not so different |
| 22:23.42 | PlasmaHH | its lots of demand driven too, plus "events" you cannot forsee that drastically change demand. like in wow, where with a new patch some items are worthless and some are needed even more |
| 22:25.18 | Nechckn | it's just a lot more open- if you have the right contacts |
| 22:25.23 | PlasmaHH | anyways, bedtime. maybe once I make my project available if I have rewritten all the algorithms behind it. and then some nice webdev can make such fancy graphs too ;) |
| 22:28.33 | Shaone | Gah this is hard to wrap my head around |
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| 23:01.04 | Shaone | Hey Nechckn? |
| 23:01.28 | Shaone | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauvenet%27s_criterion Where did the 0.5 come from in the 2nd paragraph |
| 23:02.15 | Nechckn | I'll look.. if I can't find it, I'll point to someone who may be of more help ;-) |
| 23:04.20 | Nechckn | they are figuring . If the result is less than 0.5, the suspicious data point may be discarded, i.e., a reading may be rejected if the probability of obtaining the particular deviation from the mean is less than 1/(2n). |
| 23:04.26 | Nechckn | that part ^^^ |
| 23:05.14 | Nechckn | it looks like that is the whole point.. the .5 is the crux, where you either count the new data as "good" or "bad" |
| 23:06.16 | Shaone | Ohh I see |
| 23:06.35 | Shaone | So 0.5 is their umm tolerance |
| 23:06.38 | Nechckn | that's the whhole point of that particular stat theory |
| 23:07.09 | Nechckn | I think... you could use any number you like, it just would no longer be a Chauvenet's is all.... |
| 23:09.07 | Shaone | I see |
| 23:09.09 | Nechckn | see what I mean.. you could use .2 or .4, it would still be a usable model.. just not a "chauvenet"- I think using that as the tolerance is an ok way to go |
| 23:09.44 | Nechckn | I mean you could stick any number on there... it would just allow a greater number of results to be seen as good or bad is all |
| 23:10.01 | Shaone | Now here's another dilemma |
| 23:10.18 | Shaone | What happens if there's 5 listings of some item around average market value |
| 23:10.24 | Shaone | And someone puts 10 of em up for 3x market value |
| 23:10.27 | Shaone | :( |
| 23:14.52 | Kinesia | Heh, How do you know it's 3xmarket value? |
| 23:15.48 | Kinesia | That's why I like the "purchased" stat. it's not the most reliable in that it counts cancellations sometimes too, but it gives you an idea what people paid instead of just what they were posted at |
| 23:17.54 | Kinesia | What I think is really needed is to end purchased to work out what is going to expire without a bid. Then you have rough graphs of what it did sell for, what it was posted at and what it _didn't_ sell at and you can compare the three curves and work out someway to combine them into an optimal selling price... It's hard though. |
| 23:17.55 | Shaone | That can't be very accurate unless you scan every 5 minutes or something |
| 23:18.47 | Kinesia | Nah, you just check what has 30 minutes left with no bid. that's stuff that noone has wanted for a day or 2. much more reliable than comnparing scan data |
| 23:19.19 | Kinesia | not perfect, might sell out in the last 30 minutes, but a good start. |
| 23:19.30 | Nechckn | ^^ more mathematically inclined than I.. thank you Kinesia |
| 23:19.57 | Shaone | Also makes it hard to determine which was actually sold since there are no unique IDs for each listing |
| 23:20.15 | Kinesia | yeah, we have a lot of problems UIDs would help with |
| 23:20.54 | Shaone | It'd also be nice if the item's seller wasn't retrieved in a separate query :( |
| 23:22.49 | Kinesia | yep. I'm sure it'd be less work for blizzard too if they bundled it in somehow. but they have to change stuff first... |
| 23:24.45 | Shaone | The current way the item's seller is retrieved only seems useful if character names are changing often |
| 23:25.07 | Shaone | But they aren't changed often enough to make it a big deal, plus when a character name is changed, a simple query is run to update their AH listings |
| 23:25.16 | Shaone | To me, it doesn't make sense to separate em |
| 23:25.38 | bleeter | well, think of it this way. the UID is sent to the player, who then does the name lookup. from that point on, the name for the UID is cached. If you send the name with every UID, that's pointless data |
| 23:26.17 | Shaone | I see |
| 23:26.22 | bleeter | my 2c, anyways |
| 23:26.56 | Shaone | That makes sense |
| 23:27.22 | bleeter | all they need to do is have some kinda 'recently updated' method for renames, and they're golden |
| 23:28.02 | bleeter | to be honest, though, with blizz practically desiupporting modem connections - ie, broadband or death - it makes less sense these days |
| 23:29.01 | Shaone | yea |
| 23:30.51 | Kinesia | I just don't get why they don't cache it over sessions. renames are so rare... you could even use a "lazy" lookup. use the old name until the new one comes in |
| 23:35.22 | bleeter | I can understand why they don't, but a lack of 'is UID 457345 still known as 'bleeter' request would overcome that, no? |
| 23:35.33 | bleeter | d/lack of/ |
| 23:39.18 | Kinesia | heh. yeah, I suppose you don't want stalkers following the uid once the name has changed... normally the stalker would be banned though, the way the TnCs are setup |
| 23:40.33 | bleeter | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:45.56 | Kinesia | Interesting. though you couldn't differentiate between the other people you'd ignored without seeing them in game and knowing their names were still the same. |
| 23:48.58 | Shaone | Nechckn, I think I figured out where 0.5 came from |
| 23:50.49 | Nechckn | eh? |
| 23:51.41 | Shaone | Standard deviation over ( 50 minus mean ) |
| 23:53.11 | Shaone | 0 |
| 23:53.13 | Shaone | Oops |
| 23:53.51 | Shaone | 0.05 was their tolerance I believe, the 0.5 in 'Because 0.3 < 0.5' is where I got confused |
| 23:55.09 | Nechckn | oh... yeah, I may have read it wrong, too then |
| 23:55.22 | Nechckn | I thought it was .5 in each spot... not .05 |
| 23:58.08 | Shaone | http://realmdata.com/normalized.php |
| 23:58.23 | Shaone | That's using Chauvenet's |
| 23:59.05 | Shaone | Now to apply it to a larger set of data :) |
| 23:59.17 | Nechckn | that's the real test |
| 23:59.25 | Nechckn | in these cases anyway |