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| 00:41.07 | *** topic/#neo900 is http://neo900.org | CCCAMP15 lightning talks at http://neo900.org/stuff/cccamp15/ - major: http://neo900.org/stuff/cccamp15/ccc2015talk/neo900-wpwrak_CCC2015.webm | conversations are logged to http://infobot.rikers.org/%23neo900/ and http://irclog.whitequark.org/neo900 |
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| 03:21.08 | Joerg-Neo900 | mail sent \o/ |
| 03:21.17 | Joerg-Neo900 | oops ECHAN |
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| 18:16.05 | atk | My nokia N900 thinks my new earphones (which have a four band cable thing and an in-line microphone) are a TV out. |
| 18:16.33 | atk | As in the 3.5mm jack has four metal bands. |
| 18:16.37 | atk | not the usual three. |
| 18:17.11 | atk | I imagine this behaviour can be somehow overridden |
| 18:26.17 | sixwheeledbeast | I imagine a OMTP AHJ issue that would only be "fixed" with a convertor |
| 18:26.24 | sixwheeledbeast | ~omtp |
| 18:29.24 | sixwheeledbeast | http://www.dx.com/p/universal-3-5mm-omtp-to-ctia-earphone-adapter-black-red-339166 |
| 18:29.59 | sixwheeledbeast | something like that is basically a 2nd ring to sleeve crossover cable. |
| 18:34.16 | atk | I waited 6 weeks for these earphones, now I will wait 6 weeks for a converter :P |
| 18:34.20 | atk | The joys of buying from china. |
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| 18:37.02 | sixwheeledbeast | I just use the WH-205 provided... |
| 18:37.49 | sixwheeledbeast | You may want to check that the headset is CTIA/AHJ with a multimeter or another device first |
| 18:38.49 | atk | I have a multimeter |
| 18:39.31 | atk | I didn't buy these IEMs for the microphone, I bought them for the sound producing bits |
| 18:45.33 | sixwheeledbeast | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phone_connector_(audio)#TRRS_standards |
| 18:46.47 | atk | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:46.50 | sixwheeledbeast | As you can see you can confirm from the resistance between the connections. |
| 18:47.49 | sixwheeledbeast | awaits Doc to chime in on what a stupid idea having the ground signal on R2 is |
| 18:47.56 | sixwheeledbeast | and I fully agree. |
| 18:48.47 | sixwheeledbeast | N900 is OMTP, most modern stuff is CTIA/AHJ |
| 18:52.12 | sixwheeledbeast | the reason for the tv out is the N900 will be looking for the mic resistance on R2 to detect if R2 should be mic or cvbs |
| 18:55.37 | Joerg-Neo900 | yep, all correct |
| 18:56.51 | sixwheeledbeast | BTW the whitequark irclog cert expires today in case anyone here can do anything about that. |
| 18:57.35 | Joerg-Neo900 | whitequark should :-) |
| 18:58.25 | atk | it seems ground is R2 |
| 18:58.37 | Joerg-Neo900 | AHJ |
| 18:58.42 | sixwheeledbeast | :nod: |
| 18:58.59 | Joerg-Neo900 | not compatible to N900 |
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| 18:59.23 | Joerg-Neo900 | Neo900 has an automatic switch to use both standards |
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| 18:59.31 | atk | at least this is the test I can make: R2 to R1 and tip - beeps, sleeve to R1 and tip - NC, sleeve to R2 - NC |
| 18:59.43 | atk | when I say beeps, there's a connection |
| 18:59.54 | Joerg-Neo900 | yep |
| 19:00.01 | Joerg-Neo900 | correct |
| 19:00.07 | sixwheeledbeast | resistance would be a better test than continuity |
| 19:00.11 | atk | and sleeve to R1 or tip - nc |
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| 19:01.47 | atk | when I say NC (no connection) my meter shows over limit |
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| 19:02.39 | Joerg-Neo900 | you can press and hold the button of mic before plugin |
| 19:02.51 | Joerg-Neo900 | shorts sleeve and R2 |
| 19:02.54 | sixwheeledbeast | I'd say <100ohm over each of the speakers and ~2k for the mic ? |
| 19:03.02 | Joerg-Neo900 | yes |
| 19:03.34 | Joerg-Neo900 | ~ping |
| 19:03.34 | infobot | 1 packet transmitted, 1 packet received, 0.0% packet loss |
| 19:03.39 | Joerg-Neo900 | ~omtp |
| 19:03.51 | Joerg-Neo900 | ~listvalues omtp |
| 19:03.56 | *** join/#neo900 pagurus (~user@p4FDC3F3C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 19:04.00 | Joerg-Neo900 | o.O |
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| 19:04.22 | Joerg-Neo900 | ~+status |
| 19:04.22 | infobot | Since Fri Mar 24 00:39:06 2017, there have been 0 modifications, 7 questions, 0 dunnos, 0 morons and 2 commands. I have been awake for 18h 25m 16s this session, and currently reference 119652 factoids. I'm using about 83232 kB of memory. With 0 active forks. Process time user/system 97.64/1.67 child 0/0 |
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| 19:05.39 | Joerg-Neo900 | ~OMTP is http://www.omtp.org/OMTP_Local_Connectivity_Wired_Analogue_Audio_v1_0.pdf or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phone_connector_(audio)#TRRS_standards |
| 19:05.40 | infobot | okay, Joerg-Neo900 |
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| 19:08.47 | Joerg-Neo900 | ~ahj |
| 19:09.23 | atk | ah, I put my meter out of auto-ranging |
| 19:09.25 | atk | that explains it |
| 19:12.03 | atk | 1k6R S R2, 1k6R S R1, 1k6R S T, 18R R2 R1, 18R R2 T, 34R R1 T |
| 19:12.11 | atk | I think it's obvious R2 is ground. |
| 19:12.55 | atk | and you're right, if I hold the mic button as I plug in, N900 recognises as earphones |
| 19:12.59 | atk | wonderful |
| 19:13.25 | Joerg-Neo900 | need button pressed for music playback |
| 19:13.41 | atk | hmm, yes, that makes sense |
| 19:13.43 | Joerg-Neo900 | as soon as you release it, it fails |
| 19:13.45 | atk | gets some tape |
| 19:14.11 | sixwheeledbeast | that crossover lead looking a potential option again |
| 19:14.31 | atk | Yes, I'll get one from ebay for twice the price but which will get here in two days instead of a month |
| 19:14.53 | atk | Although tape works too |
| 19:16.14 | Joerg-Neo900 | use some elastic object (syrofoam ball or the like) under tape, to have constant elastic pressure on button |
| 19:16.28 | Joerg-Neo900 | styrofoam |
| 19:16.43 | atk | that would slowly flatten itself |
| 19:16.57 | atk | I think some cardboard would work though |
| 19:16.58 | Joerg-Neo900 | right, styrofoam suboptimal |
| 19:16.59 | atk | thin strip |
| 19:17.40 | Joerg-Neo900 | rather paper, folded. It's more elastic than cardboard |
| 19:18.01 | sixwheeledbeast | elastic band? |
| 19:18.17 | Joerg-Neo900 | or you use a rubber ring instead sticky tape, then a rigid object will do |
| 19:20.45 | atk | Alternatively I could get some aluminium foil and carefully short R1 and S with it, use a tiny bit if tape to hold it down |
| 19:20.57 | atk | explores idea further |
| 19:22.09 | Joerg-Neo900 | forget that, there's no space left between receptacle and plug for such contraption |
| 19:22.23 | atk | Ye of little faith. |
| 19:22.31 | atk | We shall see |
| 19:22.46 | Joerg-Neo900 | do the math :-) |
| 19:22.57 | atk | the math would take more time than trying it |
| 19:23.34 | Joerg-Neo900 | also I's bet alu foil will break on jack contact springs sliding over it |
| 19:24.04 | Joerg-Neo900 | trying it might result in you beeding to disassemble and clean your N900 jack |
| 19:24.09 | Joerg-Neo900 | needing* |
| 19:24.35 | atk | worth the risk |
| 19:25.11 | Joerg-Neo900 | though chances are low you will be able to insert that alufoil into jack together with the plug. However if you succeed, odds are it will stay nside |
| 19:25.33 | Joerg-Neo900 | I strongly discourage you to do that |
| 19:26.01 | Joerg-Neo900 | won't work for at least 3 very strong reasons |
| 19:26.23 | atk | all wrong, it won't work because my tape is too inflexible |
| 19:26.31 | atk | and not sticky enough |
| 19:26.31 | Joerg-Neo900 | chances 5% * 3% * 10% |
| 19:26.46 | Joerg-Neo900 | ooh, sticky tape |
| 19:26.53 | Joerg-Neo900 | chances 5% * 3% * 10% * 2% |
| 19:31.00 | sixwheeledbeast | alu foil?... im out |
| 19:31.45 | atk | well, it worked once, then the tape bunched up and it stopped working, you were right about the tolerances though, I didn't realise they were so tight |
| 19:31.55 | atk | either way, I got to try it, and tape didn't get stuck inside my N900 |
| 19:32.05 | sixwheeledbeast | they need to be |
| 19:32.09 | atk | shrugs |
| 19:32.27 | atk | I am a "see it for myself" kind of person |
| 19:32.36 | sixwheeledbeast | lol |
| 19:32.57 | atk | When the opportunity presents itself, I'll do something stupid to see just how stupid it is |
| 19:33.07 | sixwheeledbeast | we saw that from a miles away... |
| 19:33.21 | atk | Well yes, but I had faith |
| 19:33.35 | atk | and aluminium foil |
| 19:33.37 | atk | and tape |
| 19:33.57 | atk | time to tape some paper down |
| 19:34.22 | Joerg-Neo900 | if you're so wildly determined to fix the issue, open up the microphone+button case, and heat up your soldering iron |
| 19:34.49 | atk | I was determined to find a quick temporary fix while the crossover cable arrives |
| 19:35.01 | atk | that would be a permanent fix, and for some crazy reason I might want the mic |
| 19:35.26 | Joerg-Neo900 | you just need to swap the cables for sleeve and R2 |
| 19:35.47 | atk | I doubt I could work on such tiny wires |
| 19:36.07 | Joerg-Neo900 | good point |
| 19:36.09 | atk | and the case looks like it was ultrasonically welded |
| 19:36.22 | Joerg-Neo900 | quite possible, yes |
| 19:42.27 | atk | tape and paper works |
| 19:42.37 | atk | actually, paper, blutack, paper and then tape |
| 19:43.01 | atk | probably about as difficult to assemble as those Package on Package chips :P |
| 19:45.42 | sixwheeledbeast | I can't remember if you can do some temporary magic, editing devices files and making them read only. I have done it for cam button and prox etc |
| 19:47.11 | Joerg-Neo900 | sixwheeledbeast: that won't fix the GND of audio circuitry connected to sleeve of jack, in N900 |
| 19:47.56 | sixwheeledbeast | oh your right I didn't think about the connection... |
| 19:48.08 | Joerg-Neo900 | headphone signal from amp-out is tip-sleeve and R1-sleeve no matter what you do on software |
| 19:48.45 | sixwheeledbeast | :nod: |
| 19:48.55 | Joerg-Neo900 | and R2 is positive bias to sleeve, or disconnected (or TV-out) |
| 19:49.56 | Joerg-Neo900 | for AHJ you need positive bias on sleeve wrt R2 (GND) for the mic to work |
| 19:50.14 | Joerg-Neo900 | iirc |
| 19:51.08 | Joerg-Neo900 | ...and according to N900 detecting the R2-sleeve as open-circuit |
| 19:51.18 | Joerg-Neo900 | not as ~2kR |
| 19:51.29 | Joerg-Neo900 | mic has wrong polarity |
| 19:52.02 | Joerg-Neo900 | amazing this isn't considered a possible cause for damage |
| 19:52.17 | atk | what is a possible cause for damage? |
| 19:52.45 | Joerg-Neo900 | mic + integrated amp powered wrong polarity |
| 19:52.53 | atk | I see |
| 19:53.03 | atk | are mics susceptible to damage if they're reverse biased? |
| 19:53.10 | Joerg-Neo900 | the amp usually is a FET, so low risk from that |
| 19:53.48 | Joerg-Neo900 | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electret_microphone |
| 19:54.25 | atk | soon I will be undertaking the highly complex task of designing and making a regulated linear variable bench power supply for myself |
| 19:55.37 | atk | As all the ones you can buy either cost an arm and two legs or look like they are going to fall apart from just looking at them for too long |
| 19:55.46 | Joerg-Neo900 | got a switched mode lab PSU with 40V 10A and USB for programming. Best purchase ever, re PSUs |
| 19:56.23 | atk | And I get to spec it out in the way I specifically want |
| 19:56.32 | Joerg-Neo900 | I just wish the current limiter had better than 0.1A granularity |
| 19:57.23 | atk | This one will use some nice 10 turn pots or dual pots, I am hoping to get a bit better than 0.1A and 0.1V |
| 19:57.37 | Joerg-Neo900 | sure :-) |
| 19:57.51 | atk | aiming for something 0-30V and 4A (adjustable current limit of course) |
| 19:57.51 | Joerg-Neo900 | analog there's no granularity :-D |
| 19:58.05 | atk | Indeed |
| 20:03.25 | Joerg-Neo900 | https://www.conrad.de/de/labornetzgeraet-einstellbar-voltcraft-pps-16005-1-36-vdc-0-10-a-360-w-usb-remote-programmierbar-anzahl-ausgaenge-2-x-513914.html |
| 20:03.39 | atk | Anyway, thank you for your assistance gentlemen. |
| 20:03.43 | atk | the earphones now work |
| 20:03.58 | Joerg-Neo900 | :-)) |
| 20:03.59 | atk | 250EUR |
| 20:04.01 | atk | holy cow |
| 20:04.07 | atk | only 1 channel |
| 20:04.37 | atk | what does the programming let you do anyway? |
| 20:05.05 | Joerg-Neo900 | all |
| 20:05.07 | Joerg-Neo900 | :-) |
| 20:05.27 | atk | "all" |
| 20:05.34 | Joerg-Neo900 | except for arbitrary waveform generator on frequencies >1Hz |
| 20:05.43 | atk | I see |
| 20:06.13 | atk | If I throw a teensy into this upcoming PSU project and don't burn it, I could probably get even better than 1Hz :D |
| 20:06.43 | Joerg-Neo900 | you can do all you also can do on human interface: set voltage and current, read out the meters. And then some on top |
| 20:06.43 | atk | I would need to write the firmware, sure, and that might take 3 years at the rate I'm working on this keyboard project on, sure |
| 20:07.23 | atk | on that note, I should finally implement this UART nonsense into this code and then try to connect to this MCU over serial |
| 20:07.41 | atk | Then I can debug things more easily. |
| 20:07.53 | atk | So far i've gotten the USB SIE working with just a single LED for debugging :P |
| 20:08.05 | atk | In retrospect, getting UART working would have made more sense before the USB |
| 20:08.09 | atk | but that wouldn't have been as fun |
| 20:09.05 | atk | Same reason I'm not using any of that arduino nonsense |
| 20:09.11 | atk | takes all the fun out of programming MCUs |
| 20:09.35 | atk | If it can't have some completely inexplicable bug which takes 3 weeks to track down, it's not fun enough. |
| 20:09.53 | atk | Although arduino is full of its own bugs. |
| 20:10.15 | atk | Like the PWM having an upper limit of 80% duty cycle for some insane reason |
| 20:10.27 | atk | (something around there, I can't remember the exact value) |
| 20:11.34 | Joerg-Neo900 | LOL |
| 20:14.34 | Joerg-Neo900 | the most nasty instrument it got which absolutely doesn't lend itself to decent control via USB (or even RS232) is my UPS |
| 20:14.48 | Joerg-Neo900 | s/it/I/ |
| 20:15.42 | Joerg-Neo900 | damn HID |
| 20:15.53 | atk | uninterruptible power supply? |
| 20:16.07 | atk | human interface device? |
| 20:16.13 | atk | I have to say, the HID spec is a mess |
| 20:16.41 | atk | and the linux kernel was technically implementing a silly little quirk of it incorrectly |
| 20:16.51 | atk | So I fixed it, now it's scheduled for 4.12 |
| 20:17.25 | atk | 4.12 HID will finally be slightly more conforming to the spec than it is now |
| 20:17.43 | Joerg-Neo900 | yes, yes, and absolutely yes |
| 20:18.38 | Joerg-Neo900 | don't ask me how a UPs is any sort of HID really |
| 20:18.57 | atk | they make good bricks for beating people with |
| 20:19.05 | atk | so it's a kind of Human Interface Device |
| 20:19.14 | Joerg-Neo900 | hehehe |
| 20:19.25 | Joerg-Neo900 | too heavy, over 15kg |
| 20:19.29 | atk | In the sense that it is a device which can be used to interface with the face of a human. |
| 20:19.49 | atk | Yeah, they are awfully heavy, had to carry one from work to my house once, when I purchased one. |
| 20:19.59 | atk | Not only heavy, but the box it came in was unweildy |
| 20:20.13 | atk | felt like my arms were going to fall off from the bizarre contorted holding position |
| 20:20.27 | Joerg-Neo900 | :nod: |
| 20:23.54 | Joerg-Neo900 | to keep you up to date with more on-topic stuff: since ahycka and ceene are busy with their day job and thus only partially available for layout, we're about to find more human resources to speed up the proto_v2 finilazing |
| 20:24.39 | atk | I see |
| 20:25.29 | Joerg-Neo900 | a big thank you to ravelo for all the help with that |
| 20:26.31 | atk | If you need any help with git, or editing a blog post for the website, or some linux related stuff, heck, if it's within my abilities I can even do hardware related stuff or kernel related stuff |
| 20:27.09 | atk | (Mind you, I am no EE though, I am just a hobbyist) |
| 20:27.22 | Joerg-Neo900 | git, blog posts, all highly welcome. Git on demand though, just not right now |
| 20:28.19 | Joerg-Neo900 | I *hope* soon i'll be glad to get your help with git, to create account for the new layouter |
| 20:29.31 | Joerg-Neo900 | actually maybe even two new accounts |
| 20:32.41 | Joerg-Neo900 | just a random screenshot of this morning's latest git commit: http://susepaste.org/78856565 |
| 20:33.57 | atk | all the bits at the bottom have to be crammed into the N900 shaped board at the top? |
| 20:34.21 | atk | or I presume some go on the UPPER board at the top |
| 20:34.27 | Joerg-Neo900 | yes |
| 20:34.55 | Joerg-Neo900 | and LOWER we have S1 and S2 surface |
| 20:35.31 | Joerg-Neo900 | by math estimation, we have a density ~70% |
| 20:35.42 | Joerg-Neo900 | iirc |
| 20:37.43 | Joerg-Neo900 | a tad on the crowded side, but still feasible |
| 20:38.56 | Joerg-Neo900 | PCB might need more layers and blind vias to cope with such density, which makes it more expensive, but that's negiligble considering the other cost factors of the whole project |
| 20:39.22 | Joerg-Neo900 | negligible* |
| 20:42.05 | Joerg-Neo900 | http://susepaste.org/82019149 a less cluttered view |
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| 21:00.19 | Joerg-Neo900 | (LOWER we have S1 and S2) on UPPER there's S3, S4, where S3 is only partially usable where the components on S2 leave enough headroom to place low profile components on S3 |
| 21:01.29 | Joerg-Neo900 | also several particularly large components (e.g. all kbd switches, SIM holder) are double, in the batch of spread-out components on bottom and a second time already placed and fixed on PCB |
| 22:30.22 | enyc | ooh things tappening |
| 22:30.34 | enyc | be good togcet a news article out soon |
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