| 00:05.26 | enyc | DocScrutinizer05: i guess too soon to tell what this means for wviability of neo900 using kicad... i guoss just have to get started building something for test in there? |
| 00:05.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 00:06.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | generally we assume KiCAD can get tweaked into shape if needed, so it's less of a dead end than any other commercial EDA tool like eagle |
| 00:07.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | jonsger1: oh yes, and the VM is a ready set up build environment for KiCAD too, just in case what I said above gets relevant |
| 00:08.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | AND... it's devuan based ;-D |
| 00:09.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | [notice] I aborted upload of previous vagrantbox and am about to package this (hopefully [almost] final) version |
| 00:11.43 | jonsger1 | hopes to get his hands on the Neo900 in 2016 :) |
| 00:13.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://paste.opensuse.org/57103428 |
| 00:15.40 | *** join/#neo900 chainsawbike (~chainsawb@unaffiliated/chainsawbike) |
| 00:16.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://paste.opensuse.org/91411622 |
| 00:36.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | vagrant init Neo900-KiCAD http://neo900.files.dev-1.org/vagrantboxes/kicad_1920x1080__root-devuan_compile-kicad/kicad-xfce-devuan.box |
| 00:38.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | this is all you should need to do, in a (CWD, cd) dir you made for that purpose, after installing virtualbox and vagrant. Then wait quite a while until the box got downloaded, and do `vagrant up` |
| 00:39.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | for now it will tell you that the URL is 404, that will change as soon as I uploaded the box |
| 00:39.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | eventually we will ship the libs etc with this |
| 01:38.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually sorry, vagrant up is the command downloading the box |
| 01:43.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://termbin.com/mky3 |
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| 02:01.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | vagrant install: https://releases.hashicorp.com/vagrant/1.8.4/ |
| 02:06.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | also, for the skeptical: https://github.com/mitchellh/vagrant (with lovely outdated README) |
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| 15:02.12 | atk | DocScrutinizer05: Any faster way to unmount the sd card than to sudo gainroot, then umount /media/mmc1 ? |
| 15:02.34 | atk | I think I'll just write a script for this. |
| 15:05.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, that's the way: queenbeecon |
| 15:06.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | btw there is a script already iirc |
| 15:07.02 | atk | Also, will any microSDHC card work with the N900 (It's basically a linux box and I've never had trouble reading an SD card on any of my machines running linux.) |
| 15:07.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | /usr/bin/mmc-pre-unmount |
| 15:07.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | /usr/bin/mmc-unmount |
| 15:07.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | /usr/lib/hal/hal-storage-unmount |
| 15:07.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | /usr/lib/hal/hal-unmount.sh |
| 15:08.08 | atk | what is this hal? |
| 15:08.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | Hardware abstraction Layer |
| 15:08.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~hal |
| 15:08.40 | infobot | rumour has it, hal is (Hardware Abstraction Layer) This is the portion of the operating system that lets programs deal with hardware directly. This allows programs needing more speed from the computer to bypass the standard OS calls to hardware. So instead of calling the Windows' API to draw a dialog box, you would go through the pain of actually drawing it out line by line: much faster, but much harder to write. This is of particular importance when ... |
| 15:09.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, in linux the second half of that is not to the point |
| 15:09.38 | atk | alright, so mmc-umount /media/mmc1 should work? |
| 15:10.00 | atk | Or should I run the pre-unmount before? |
| 15:10.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | HAL is a daemon doing a lot of /sys/* monitoring, talking to kernel, and sending (and receiving) dbus signals |
| 15:10.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | read the script |
| 15:10.32 | atk | it's a binary.. |
| 15:10.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | wow |
| 15:11.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | then grep /etc and /usr/lib for invokations |
| 15:12.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | mmc-unmount --help |
| 15:14.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | etc/sudoers: |
| 15:14.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | user ALL = NOPASSWD: /usr/sbin/mmc-mount /dev/mmcblk0 /media/mmc1 |
| 15:14.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | user ALL = NOPASSWD: /usr/sbin/mmc-mount /dev/mmcblk0p1 /media/mmc1 |
| 15:14.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | user ALL = NOPASSWD: /bin/umount /media/mmc1,/bin/umount -l /media/mmc1 |
| 15:15.34 | atk | I was more curious as to what pre-unmount does (that doesn't have a --help) |
| 15:16.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | then try it ;-) |
| 15:16.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | it seems to use a device or path to mountpoint as argument |
| 15:17.04 | atk | It doesn't say anything when I run it :P I guess since umount is in the sudoers file, I'll just stick that as a cmd shortcut |
| 15:17.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | maybe invoke with sudo then? |
| 15:18.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | aah wait, pre-unmount isn't in sudoers |
| 15:19.00 | atk | I think I'll just trust unmount to do its job... Hmm.. What does the N900 use for notifications dbus? |
| 15:20.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | hm? |
| 15:21.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | please rephrase |
| 15:21.17 | *** join/#neo900 xman (~xman@user-0cdft6f.cable.mindspring.com) |
| 15:21.56 | atk | You know the pop-up notifications that you get from email for example, is that done through some common interface? |
| 15:22.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep, dbus |
| 15:22.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~phonecontrol |
| 15:22.15 | infobot | from memory, phonecontrol is http://wiki.maemo.org/Phone_control |
| 15:23.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://wiki.maemo.org/Phone_control#Notifications |
| 15:24.22 | atk | alright, great! |
| 15:27.58 | atk | Alright, this will make it simple to make a mount/unmount thing |
| 15:36.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://maemo.org/packages/view/desktop-cmd-exec/ |
| 15:37.16 | atk | Yes, that's what I plan on using :D I'll send you the script when it's finished and working. |
| 15:37.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | and the bloatred version: http://maemo.org/packages/view/queen-beecon/ |
| 15:38.08 | atk | cool |
| 15:38.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | I prefer the former |
| 15:38.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | queen beecon is just a PITA to set up |
| 15:38.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | too many options |
| 15:39.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | while dce already has more than enough |
| 15:40.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | YMMV |
| 15:55.00 | atk | Great, I now have a script to automate this |
| 15:55.28 | atk | Hopefully it will work for SD cards with an extra partitioned (one partition) and unpartitioned SD cards |
| 15:57.26 | atk | DocScrutinizer05: So yes, is there any limit on the size of SD card I can use? |
| 16:03.47 | *** join/#neo900 sn0wmonster (~yeti@taskhive/developer/sn0wmonster) |
| 16:09.23 | pigeons | i recruited a new cult member sn0wmonster |
| 16:10.37 | sn0wmonster | puts on his robe |
| 16:10.56 | sn0wmonster | do we sacrifice iphones here for entry? |
| 16:13.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | hi |
| 16:14.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | sn0wmonster: membership is for free ;-) |
| 16:14.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | atk: no limit known so far |
| 16:14.31 | sn0wmonster | can i still sacrifice an iphone if i want to? |
| 16:14.38 | atk | Yes |
| 16:14.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | of course :-) |
| 16:14.49 | wpwrak | sn0wmonster: you should have left it with the acolytes. we train them to be discreet and efficient at disposing of embarrassments from past lives |
| 16:14.54 | atk | Post a video with some thermite!!! |
| 16:15.00 | sn0wmonster | i don't want to sound like a newb but, "I want a phone, where do I pay?" |
| 16:15.26 | sn0wmonster | (I have already been informed they're not ready) |
| 16:15.46 | atk | https://my.neo900.org/ |
| 16:16.21 | sn0wmonster | thank you |
| 16:16.37 | sn0wmonster | will this run devuan? will it run Tails? will it run GTA 4? |
| 16:16.46 | sn0wmonster | (i'm joking) |
| 16:17.21 | sn0wmonster | can i order one *without* telephony? |
| 16:17.22 | atk | I'm sure it could run anything if you tried hard enough. |
| 16:17.53 | sn0wmonster | to be honest, i just want a linux tablet, but since that doesn't exist, this is the next best thing |
| 16:18.04 | atk | There is a linux tablet project |
| 16:18.24 | atk | and there's the telephony free pyra coming up |
| 16:20.08 | sn0wmonster | i realize the issues with it, but i'd love a Tails on tablet that didn't have systemd |
| 16:20.27 | sn0wmonster | then i could take my work outside the home without feeling like my device was betraying me |
| 16:20.52 | atk | Tails the distribution? |
| 16:21.07 | sn0wmonster | yea, i can't seemt o knock any sense into Tails developers to use Devuan instead |
| 16:21.21 | sn0wmonster | something something Debian relationships something something "systemd is a feature, not a bug" blah blah blah |
| 16:21.35 | sn0wmonster | same speel from SubgraphOS and depressingly, the same speel from Tor and Riseup :( |
| 16:21.38 | atk | is planning on getting void-linux running on his N900 and potentially Neo900 in the future. |
| 16:23.40 | atk | It's the path of least resistance (systemd), and I feel it is going to be a catastrophe sooner or later. |
| 16:24.21 | end1 | systemd-kerneld.service |
| 16:26.04 | atk | Certainly there are some advantages for distro maintainers when using systemd over something else, but it's like people are blind to the other insanities like the fact that somehow the init daemon now deals with shit like dns ... for whatever reason |
| 16:26.48 | sn0wmonster | yea, for "whatever reason" |
| 16:26.57 | sn0wmonster | *cough*NSA*COUGH*REDHAT*COUGH* |
| 16:27.34 | sn0wmonster | narcissists are a dime a dozen and have always made good fall guys for government infiltration plots |
| 16:28.52 | atk | To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised, the developers are slightly idiotic in many respects, like defaulting to some google DNS servers on unconfigured setups... in the end, whether it's kay sievers and lennart being idiots or someone paying them, I don't see why someone would use an init daemon which pulls tricks like that |
| 16:35.15 | *** join/#neo900 Pali (~pali@Maemo/community/contributor/Pali) |
| 16:57.01 | *** join/#neo900 Xqq111 (~user@113.102.163.26) |
| 16:57.12 | Xqq111 | Hello guys. |
| 16:57.56 | Xqq111 | Just wanted to make a suggestion. |
| 16:58.42 | Xqq111 | It would be really neat if you could put like a loading bar on the website that showed how many percent are we currently before shipping can finally begin. |
| 16:59.03 | *** join/#neo900 xes_ (~xes@unaffiliated/xes) |
| 16:59.06 | Xqq111 | It would save a lot of people from asking for the status of the project. |
| 16:59.31 | Xqq111 | I know you guys have a timeline at the bottom but that thing is confusing. |
| 16:59.50 | Xqq111 | And the indicator gets stuck at the same position for very long periods of time. |
| 17:00.23 | Xqq111 | And it doesn't really update when you guys get a step closer in finishing development, like recently you finished working on the IR. |
| 17:01.19 | Xqq111 | So, like, what's the status of the project? How close are you guys to shipping in terms of percentages? |
| 17:01.24 | Xqq111 | 80%? |
| 17:01.25 | pigeons | comon that's silly to estimate |
| 17:01.54 | Xqq111 | Nothing silly about it. |
| 17:02.39 | Xqq111 | If you're finished developing/testing/implementing 80% of the stuff you need to develop/test/implement you are ~80% done. |
| 17:03.06 | pigeons | how do you come up with the number? |
| 17:03.15 | pigeons | you know how these things work |
| 17:03.28 | Xqq111 | What do you mean how do you come up with the number? |
| 17:03.34 | Xqq111 | You're the project leader. |
| 17:03.47 | Xqq111 | There is a list of things that need to be done before the project is finished |
| 17:03.57 | Xqq111 | If that list is 80% completed you are 80% done. |
| 17:04.29 | Xqq111 | Look, I'm sure the project leader would be able to approximate such a percentage is asked. |
| 17:04.39 | Xqq111 | Nobody's expecting an exact number. |
| 17:05.02 | Xqq111 | Just something for people to be able to check periodically without having to log in to IRC and bug them. |
| 17:06.33 | Xqq111 | That timeline at the bottom of the site has been stuck in that same position for over a year I think. |
| 17:06.55 | Xqq111 | It gives the impression that no progress has been made. |
| 17:07.03 | Xqq111 | Which is not the case. |
| 17:07.30 | Xqq111 | But some people might be iffy about donating to the project if they see the indicator stuck in the same place for over a year. |
| 17:08.43 | Xqq111 | It's a very simple thing and I think it will really be a very positive thing if you could make a percentage based status indicator "loading bar" type of thingy. |
| 17:28.38 | atk | Xqq111: If I understand correctly the final layout needs to still be done but the person who was going to do that will no longer be available (because of the paypal delay) which means that a new layouter needs to be found, it seems there aren't many layouters available who would be able to layout the board in the software the project is currently using so right now the possibility of using kicad instead is |
| 17:28.40 | atk | being looked into |
| 17:29.32 | atk | that means that the current person who is doing schematics will need to re-train themselves to use kicad, convert the schematics over manually or somehow convert and fix them (I have no idea which one is being done) and then still find someone who can do the final layout |
| 17:30.40 | atk | then I imagine there will be some final prototype and final adjustments to the design and layout and all that, and then who knows |
| 17:31.02 | atk | Xqq111: now that you know that, could you make an informed estimate of the project progress? |
| 17:31.22 | atk | Also, be aware that the project is only 50% funded |
| 17:31.54 | atk | (300 of a required 600 devices for the project to even be able to produce the devices) |
| 17:33.06 | Xqq111 | atk, are you kidding me? You think these 5 lines of information are enough to put me on the level of the project leader for estimating the progress? |
| 17:33.34 | Xqq111 | Get real, dude. |
| 17:33.52 | atk | I mean you can always ask DocScrutinizer05 or wpwrak |
| 17:34.06 | Xqq111 | Which is exactly why I'm here. |
| 17:34.58 | atk | But I feel 80% is quite a optimistic estimate |
| 17:35.44 | atk | And finally, a guesstimated percentage doesn't tell you how quick things are going. |
| 17:36.40 | pigeons | pretty hard to guess how long things take, like pretty much impossible |
| 17:38.10 | atk | If the rest of the sales happened tomorrow, it might still be another half a year before the layouter is found and the layout is finished, then the prototype is tested and all cases are sourced. |
| 17:38.36 | atk | If the sales continue at the rate now then it might take many years before the project completes. |
| 17:38.54 | atk | s/sales/downpayments/ |
| 18:46.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, atk and pigeons have it to the point |
| 18:49.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | the schematics are 98% finsihed for the proto_v2 - als in eagle and we can't use eagle any longer since Nik isn't available for the layout anymore due to burnout from Pyra (turned out to be much harder than estimated) and without the homegrown router Nik wrote for eagle and only he knows how to use, such a project is beyond eagle's capabilities |
| 18:50.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | then there are galf a dozen, or a whole, of other tasks like sourcing the N900 which been accomplished like 15 months ago but at that time we didn't have the funds to pay the order, and when we finally had the funds paypal frozen them, and now the source in Shenzen isn't existing anymore so we need to find a new one |
| 18:52.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | the 50% funding / 'presales' is also correct, we need at least another 300 orders since delays cost money so we need to build and sell more devices to compensate for that if we don't want to increase the sales price even further |
| 18:54.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | we have a sponsor in middle east but thanks to change in politics a few weeks ago they can't transfer any money recently (no international transfers at all, for whole people) , so we are not on timeline there either |
| 18:55.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | the kicad stuff been covered by atk, just to add that this morning we 'published' our KiCAD reference at http://neo900.files.dev-1.org/vagrantboxes/kicad_1920x1080__root-devuan_compile-kicad/kicad-xfce-devuan.box |
| 18:56.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | there's ceene and ahycka, the latter willing to have a take on layout for us if we can provide her with the schematics. So we need to figure how to migrate our schematics from eagle to KiCAD |
| 18:59.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | while since end of last year I suffer from a form of burnout or progeria or alzheimer, induced by the massive overload with stress and duty from all the paypal mess and Nik not being available anymore |
| 19:05.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | bottom line: we achieved quite a lot already but there are several tasks ahead to accomplish, and each single one isn't really possible to estimate how long it will take. While team gets smaller, thus adding workload on top for reorganization and playing stand-in for tasks originally done by others, This is one of the reasons why the website doesn't see updates, it been handled by dos1 but he's not active anymore |
| 19:06.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | ultimate bottom line: when I had any faintly reasonable percentage or timespan to share, I *for sure* already had shared it |
| 19:09.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | shortly we'll announce the major shift in project away from closed and proprietary eagle tentatively towards FOSS KiCAD, which should be a pleasant news for a lot of interested people who want a device as open hardware as possible |
| 19:18.49 | xman | Oh wow so you guys are going with KiCAD after all. |
| 19:20.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, tentatively |
| 19:21.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, a quite sure tentative, since there's hardly another viable alternative |
| 19:22.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | however things need evaluation. Eagle been used for GTA04 by Nik, so we had a pretty good idea that it should pan out. For KiCAD we're guessing and relying on rhis tool being FOSS so could get fixed if turns out to lack essential capabilities |
| 19:23.56 | *** join/#neo900 arossdotme (~zxy@host-78-151-185-153.as13285.net) |
| 19:24.15 | xman | Cool. I hear what your saying. It silly to use open software if it's not fulfilling your needs or making your work harder or less accurate. Hopefully it works out well. |
| 19:24.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | IOW KiCAD is riskier from a project feasibility perspective, but also opens whole new perspectives |
| 19:25.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | ((Hopefully it works out well.)) yes, thanks a lot, we hope that too |
| 19:25.21 | *** join/#neo900 paulk-collins (~paulk@gagarine.paulk.fr) |
| 19:25.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | we're still in the phase to design and evaluate the workflow at high level |
| 19:25.48 | xman | Yeah. Seems a lot of if now after Eagle was bought. |
| 19:26.12 | atk | It might be worthwhile if I contact the kicad project people, if they care they might even provide some support for the development of Neo900 on kicad |
| 19:26.28 | atk | it would be a success for kicad itself if a project as ambitious as Neo900 was possible using it. |
| 19:26.30 | xman | Probably a better time for this to happen since thing are still flexible. |
| 19:26.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | atk: that would be *awesome* |
| 19:26.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | ack re success on ambitious |
| 19:27.02 | atk | So it might be in their interest to help |
| 19:27.03 | xman | atk: that would be great |
| 19:27.12 | atk | has some emails to send |
| 19:27.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | see, project is shifting towards more community involvement |
| 19:27.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | aka "open" |
| 19:28.15 | xman | Yeah that will make folks happy |
| 19:28.31 | xman | And hopefully get more helping hands for you. |
| 19:28.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | atk: for now we'd be *highly* interested in any even ALPHA version of a eagle->kicad converter for schematics |
| 19:28.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | and footprints |
| 19:29.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | xman: yes, a tiny bright aspect in these busy times |
| 19:30.57 | xman | I hear you, I've not forgot my desire to help. Sadly I've had to spend more time on other project for living. But I won't forget since I use my device every day. And one is down so I need it more than even now. |
| 19:31.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | this was no criticism, not at all |
| 19:32.27 | xman | Hehe, it was not taken as one buddy. Just me being harder on myself. I don't like to say I can do something if I can. |
| 19:32.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | just saying that at times I feel overwhelmed by the heap of tasks |
| 19:33.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | this never been planned or anticipated zo turn into this scenario |
| 19:34.09 | xman | But I really want to help. Perhaps I should break it up into smaller steps. Problem is I wanted to lay the foundation of what I had planned so if other wanted to step up they could follow the plan. |
| 19:34.51 | xman | DocScrutinizer05: You have done an amazing job ⦠don't let anyone every tell you otherwise.!!! |
| 19:36.06 | xman | This wouldn't even be a thing if you and some other haven't taken the steps to start the project. |
| 22:26.16 | *** join/#neo900 jonsger1 (~Thunderbi@2a02:8070:799:dd00:85ed:c6c7:861:f323) |
| 23:01.16 | *** join/#neo900 sn0wmonster (~yeti@taskhive/developer/sn0wmonster) |
| 23:59.39 | chomwitt | hi from Hellas |