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| 05:16.33 | freemangordon | wpwrak: interrupt capable != wake-up capable :) . The point is - if iox chip is put in some kind of low-power mode, is it possible for a gpio to wake-up it? |
| 05:19.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 05:19.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | the IOX chips have no low power mode I'd know of |
| 05:20.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | they get powered by VIO_18 which is supposed to be steady as long as the device isn't powered down |
| 05:20.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | and they have one wkae-capable IRQ line |
| 05:20.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | wake* |
| 05:20.53 | freemangordon | hmm, how that is going to affect the power usage? |
| 05:21.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | to wake up CPU when an interrupt event pending |
| 05:21.23 | freemangordon | yes, i know what interrupt line is :) |
| 05:21.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | this is how N900 works |
| 05:21.34 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: does it? |
| 05:21.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | I just meant to make clear the IRQ line is from chip to CPU |
| 05:21.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 05:22.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | even when CPU is in suspend, obviously all IO need power still |
| 05:22.36 | freemangordon | in what regard? all the chips I played with their drivers have some kind of "sleep" or "low-power" mode |
| 05:22.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | otherwise you would have uindefined floating signal levels all over the system |
| 05:23.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | I don't understand the question |
| 05:23.23 | freemangordon | let me try to rephrase... |
| 05:23.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | the iox chips have no significant power requirements by themselves |
| 05:24.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | they are fully static |
| 05:24.18 | freemangordon | yep, that is what I meant |
| 05:24.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | at least afaik |
| 05:24.44 | freemangordon | what are the power requirements of those iox chips |
| 05:25.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | I can't recall off top of my head |
| 05:25.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | <1mA I guess |
| 05:25.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | <<1mA even |
| 05:25.24 | freemangordon | I didn't see that info in the document wpwrak posted |
| 05:25.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-D |
| 05:25.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | wpwrak: ^^^ |
| 05:25.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: goot catch |
| 05:25.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | good* |
| 05:27.29 | freemangordon | the other thing that is missing is kernel support for those chips |
| 05:30.40 | freemangordon | looking at N900 schematics, only 2 out of 18 gpios of twl4030 are used |
| 05:30.49 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: wpwrak: ^^^ |
| 05:32.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, thanks |
| 05:32.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | kernel support is a nobrainer basically |
| 05:32.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | *even I* could write the driver |
| 05:32.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | ;-) |
| 05:32.59 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: ever discussed using twl4030 instead of iox chip? |
| 05:33.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | TCA9539 for example rates Icc between 0.4 and <8micro(1)A |
| 05:33.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | for LOWER we save all the pins on B2B with dedicated iox chip |
| 05:34.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | for UPPER we won't use any iox most likely, since we have enough GPIO and if not, we use the TWL4030 GPIO too |
| 05:35.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | micro(!)A that is |
| 05:35.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | oops 40µA |
| 05:35.40 | freemangordon | hmm, so the point is to reduce the number of needed signals going between the boards. makes sense then |
| 05:35.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | 11µA for 1.95V though |
| 05:36.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep |
| 05:36.55 | freemangordon | ok, then it shouldn;t affect life on battery by much, if at all |
| 05:36.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | in Proto_v2 we will use way more iox since we don't have a real CPU, neither a TWL4030 (BB-xM emu brainboard) |
| 05:38.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | so on LOWER we use the 'standard' iox we already have, on UPPER we emulate all SoC/TWL GPIO by iox |
| 05:38.33 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: in the meanwhile https://lkml.org/lkml/2016/6/18/233 |
| 05:39.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-) |
| 05:40.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | I really wish we had HSI instead SSI |
| 05:40.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | though... :-/ Modem doesn't support either |
| 05:40.30 | freemangordon | but, but, 3630 *has* hsi afaik |
| 05:40.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | USB is a PITA |
| 05:40.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, 3630 has SSI afaik |
| 05:40.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | the slow version |
| 05:40.53 | freemangordon | no, it is hsi |
| 05:40.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | o.O |
| 05:41.04 | freemangordon | checks |
| 05:42.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | not that it really matters, we have no modem using either |
| 05:42.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | so we need to use friggin USB, not even inter-chip-USB |
| 05:43.03 | freemangordon | why not serial interface? |
| 05:43.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | Cinterion/Gemalto goota be nuts for using USB instead of anything proper |
| 05:43.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | Serial is too slow |
| 05:43.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | UART that is |
| 05:43.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | we use both in Neo900 |
| 05:43.43 | freemangordon | how fast do we need it to be? |
| 05:43.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, see LTE |
| 05:44.07 | freemangordon | ah |
| 05:44.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | 50Mb/s? 100? |
| 05:44.15 | freemangordon | yeah |
| 05:45.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | fast LTE makes little sense when the bottleneck to SoC is throttling it to UMTS speeds anyway |
| 05:45.16 | freemangordon | :nod: |
| 05:45.43 | freemangordon | we will have fun times when trying to optimize power usage :) |
| 05:46.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | otoh idle UART (or H/S-SI for that) is conveniently humble on power consumption |
| 05:46.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah |
| 05:47.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | USB is both a power hog, and terribly lazy/slow on resume from suspend |
| 05:48.07 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: what about using mcbsp? |
| 05:48.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | so we'll have to define a system config parameter $restart-USB-threshold (unit bits per second) |
| 05:48.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | the modem chip has no McBSP either |
| 05:48.53 | freemangordon | with some kind of a companion chip converting UART to mcbsp |
| 05:49.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmmm, dunno, possibly even the modem's UART is too slow |
| 05:49.24 | freemangordon | is modem capable of high-speed transfers over its serial interface? |
| 05:49.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | ^^^ |
| 05:49.40 | freemangordon | I gues it worths checking |
| 05:50.23 | freemangordon | or even USB<->McBSP |
| 05:50.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | now that doesn't make any sense at all |
| 05:51.13 | freemangordon | the point is that there will be no need to keep USB bus out of sleep |
| 05:51.24 | freemangordon | from the SoC side |
| 05:51.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | that doesn't really help much |
| 05:52.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | we still need to suspend it to save power |
| 05:52.32 | freemangordon | sure, but there will be no need to wake-up USB when there is data from the modem |
| 05:52.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm right |
| 05:53.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | err |
| 05:53.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | really? |
| 05:53.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | the modem needs to resume USB anyway |
| 05:53.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | unless the modem uses some IRQ and/or UART for the data |
| 05:54.03 | freemangordon | imagine: [modem usb]<->[some-kind-of-exotic-chip]<->[mcbsp] |
| 05:54.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, so what about the modem<->exotic bus? |
| 05:54.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's USB |
| 05:54.43 | freemangordon | yes, but you'll need to wake-up only modem side USB |
| 05:54.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | so? |
| 05:55.01 | freemangordon | so the SoC side USB remains in sleep |
| 05:55.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, obviously |
| 05:55.19 | freemangordon | wouldn;t that reduce power usage? |
| 05:55.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | err, not really since the USB still needs to resume, or will stay actibve and eat power |
| 05:56.00 | freemangordon | which USB? |
| 05:56.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | even the modem eats lots of power with active USB |
| 05:56.06 | freemangordon | from the modem? |
| 05:56.09 | freemangordon | aah |
| 05:56.28 | freemangordon | well, I guess it anyways eats lots of power :) |
| 05:56.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | npo |
| 05:56.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | no |
| 05:56.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | in standby it eats <3mA iirc |
| 05:57.08 | freemangordon | when active I meant. |
| 05:57.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's why USB doesn't matter in that situation |
| 05:57.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's the transfer from idle to active that sucks |
| 05:58.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | since it's supposedly slow |
| 05:58.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | if we can'T suspend uSB at all, we get ENUM time for lag, and that would *really* suck, it's several seconds |
| 05:59.06 | freemangordon | yeah |
| 05:59.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | luckily we got not-all-that-slow UART as backup |
| 05:59.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | switching from UART to USB can happen on the fly |
| 06:00.43 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: does modem usb support the so-called "remote wake-up"? |
| 06:01.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | so any data transfer starts immediately, and after $restart-USB-threshold kicks in and USB got resumed (or even enumerated), the possible datarate jumps up from maybe 5Mb/s to 50Mb/s |
| 06:01.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | (remote wake-up) when it supports suspend (yet unclear for LTE modem), then definitely it also will support resume |
| 06:02.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | aka remote wake-up |
| 06:02.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | but we also have dedicated single-wire IRQ path for such resume |
| 06:03.53 | freemangordon | to the modem? |
| 06:04.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | from the modem, yes |
| 06:04.02 | freemangordon | ah, from the modem |
| 06:04.08 | freemangordon | ok |
| 06:06.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | iirc the whole suspend crap with USB is done via VBUS |
| 06:06.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | so when host (re-)supplies VBUS, the modem's USB should come up anyway |
| 06:07.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | the probelm iirc was that OMAP side doesn't know how to resume USB-host when peripheral resumes by applying VBUS, since that's not anything normal for a USB-host to detect externally applied VBUS |
| 06:08.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | but when we stay in control of resuming USB anyway, we also don't need that |
| 06:08.56 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: well, if the way "to" suspend modem USB is by removing VBUS, then it won;t follow the normal suspend/resume USB functionality |
| 06:09.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | since then it's CPU to decide when to resume |
| 06:09.28 | freemangordon | is modem connected to a dedicated USB interface? |
| 06:09.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 06:10.07 | freemangordon | then why removing VBUS instead of doing normal USB suspend/resume? |
| 06:10.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, I right now have no clue what's "the normal USB suspend" |
| 06:11.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | we discussed that for GTA04 already, several years ago |
| 06:11.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | I forgot the details |
| 06:11.16 | freemangordon | see http://www.usbmadesimple.co.uk/ums_3.htm, dunno if everything there is correct, but sounds legit |
| 06:11.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | could you give a summary? |
| 06:11.51 | freemangordon | there is, see the link ^^^ |
| 06:12.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, tl;dr |
| 06:12.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | I just know that OMAP doesn't support suspending the USB core and the ULPI and PHY, since there's no wkae line from PHY to SoC |
| 06:12.52 | freemangordon | just search for "suspend" on that page |
| 06:13.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | rather, it doesn't support resume |
| 06:13.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | afaik |
| 06:13.35 | freemangordon | hm |
| 06:13.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | or better: iirc |
| 06:14.35 | freemangordon | from 3730 TRM: "Supports suspend/resume and remote wakeup" |
| 06:14.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | whatever, our hw will provide sufficient alternative ways to deal with that |
| 06:14.54 | freemangordon | well, "36xx" TRM |
| 06:15.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | great! then only pint missing is: does LTE modem actually support suspend/resume? |
| 06:15.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | point* |
| 06:16.03 | freemangordon | it should, if it is USB certified :) |
| 06:16.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | and: is the power consumption actually low enough during suspend? |
| 06:16.47 | freemangordon | "A suspended device may draw no more than 0.5 mA from Vbus." |
| 06:17.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | meh, the modem doesn't draw power from VBUS at all |
| 06:17.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | it has its own power supply |
| 06:17.18 | freemangordon | "If a device is configured for high power (up to 500 mA), and has its remote wakeup feature enabled, it is allowed to draw up to 2.5mA during suspend." |
| 06:17.42 | freemangordon | both currents look ok to me |
| 06:18.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | and in LTE modem TRM, the Vcc power consumption for USB suspend is missing |
| 06:18.24 | freemangordon | link? |
| 06:18.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | check the block diagram |
| 06:18.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | resp FAQ |
| 06:19.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://neo900.org/faq#networks |
| 06:20.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | FFS we still don't have any proper links in there |
| 06:21.39 | freemangordon | can't find any datasheet there |
| 06:22.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://www.seapraha.cz/download/pls8-e_hd_v01000a_tcm216-155302.pdf |
| 06:23.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | 5.6 Power Supply Ratings |
| 06:24.07 | freemangordon | hmm, it seems the modem is full-speed device, not high-speed |
| 06:24.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | wut? |
| 06:25.23 | freemangordon | "PLS8-E supports a USB 2.0 High Speed (480Mbit/s) device interface that is Full Speed (12Mbit/s) compliant." |
| 06:25.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | compliant, yes |
| 06:25.56 | freemangordon | "The USB host is responsible for supplying the VUSB_IN line. This line is for voltage detection only. " |
| 06:26.03 | freemangordon | so no power usage on USB |
| 06:26.10 | freemangordon | on VBUS |
| 06:26.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | toldya |
| 06:26.22 | freemangordon | great |
| 06:26.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | not great, irrelevant |
| 06:27.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | >>Icc @ IDLE (USB disconnected) || IDLE (USB active)<< *no* USB-suspended |
| 06:28.02 | freemangordon | anyway, /me gtg |
| 06:28.08 | freemangordon | bye |
| 06:28.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's *supposed to be* a lack of documentation only |
| 06:28.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | cya |
| 06:37.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway compare http://wstaw.org/m/2016/06/23/plasma-desktoplD2277.png (PHS8) to that: http://wstaw.org/m/2016/06/23/plasma-desktopTw2277.png |
| 06:44.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | the latter looks like they didn't complete thet tests, it doesn't even mention voicecall |
| 06:44.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | the tests* |
| 07:09.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://www.gemalto.com/brochures-site/download-site/Documents/M2M_ALS3_datasheet.pdf allegedly same footprint like PLS8, also regarding second UUIC/SIM interface |
| 07:11.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | https://developer.gemalto.com/threads/pls8-dual-sim-volte |
| 07:13.07 | enyc | oooooooooooooooh things happening |
| 07:13.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, Gemalto seems to have nuked their complete document download store one again :-( |
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| 07:47.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm also pretty sure I once had a working account on http://www.gemalto.com/m2m/where-to-buy/extranet - seems to have been nuked as well |
| 07:58.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | nevermind, found the 'technical documentation' (aka TRM download) |
| 08:00.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | and WOW! http://wstaw.org/m/2016/06/23/plasma-desktopFW2277.png Version1.000c |
| 08:04.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | *of course* this "knowledge base" 'technical documentation' has not a single paper about ALS3 |
| 08:20.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://wstaw.org/m/2016/06/23/plasma-desktopqI2277.png http://wstaw.org/m/2016/06/23/plasma-desktopYS2277.png http://wstaw.org/m/2016/06/23/plasma-desktopGg2277.png (from http://www.gemalto.com/m2m-site/SitePages/M2MProductControl-automotive.aspx) |
| 08:20.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | wpwrak: ^^ |
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| 08:41.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | re http://www.seapraha.cz/download/pls8-e_hd_v01000a_tcm216-155302.pdf vs v01000c as of 6 months later: the differences are basically irrelevant, they added one picture of termal convection for SMT soldering, and changed the footer from "confidential/preliminary" to "confidential/released" |
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| 11:12.01 | wpwrak | (standby current) the XRA1201 has max 1 uA at 1.8 V. 50 uA is I2C is active. |
| 11:25.52 | wpwrak | (AHS3/ALS3) what's the role of these modules related to our project ? |
| 11:29.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | gooxd question |
| 11:30.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | to me it almost looks like A is the new P |
| 11:30.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | and 3=8 |
| 11:31.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | same formfactor, similar specs... |
| 11:32.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | very interesting are the band specs for ALS3, which are like "NEMEA, NORAM, dunnowhat" |
| 11:34.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | it sucks that no decent specs at all are available for the A*S3 sweries |
| 11:34.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | not even size is easy to find out |
| 11:36.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | bartolomjei is funny, pointing at ALS3 when somebody asks about the pinout of PLS8 (re dual SIM) |
| 11:38.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, given the EU regulations according to which *each* new car in EU needs built-in WWAN for emergency cals etc, I can see how Gemalto is doing a slight focus shift for their products ;-) |
| 11:39.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | from "10% of all trucks (for fleet management)" towards "every car sold in EU" |
| 11:40.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | the pathetic docs availability is just one fallout of that focus shift I guess |
| 11:41.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm pretty sure their complete documentation team is busy preparing whitepapers and TRMs for VW, Opel, Mercedes, younameit |
| 11:41.59 | enyc | hrrm today is the UK in/out of EU referendum |
| 11:42.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, please leave us alone! ;-) |
| 11:42.28 | enyc | DocScrutinizer05: err what? |
| 11:42.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | EU doesn't need politicians like Maggy |
| 11:43.14 | enyc | he hehehehehe |
| 11:48.14 | enyc | is there any consideration of writing a review//statement on the neo900 blog, whats' now expected in terms of engineer for proto v2 pcb etc etc? |
| 11:49.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | please elaborate |
| 11:50.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | BartÅomiej is the name |
| 11:50.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | https://developer.gemalto.com/threads/pls8-dual-sim-volte |
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| 12:15.58 | enyc | DocScrutinizer05: e.g. progress rleview, what is happening about engineer to make protov2 etc etc ... |
| 12:16.17 | enyc | DocScrutinizer05: you said something in IRC at least about pyra feedback being useful for neo900 |
| 12:16.51 | enyc | DocScrutinizer05: its' been a while since post on neo900.org ... |
| 12:18.22 | Arch-TK | I wonder if the UK leaving the EU would affect the cost of me (a person living in the UK) buying a Neo900 |
| 12:18.46 | Arch-TK | Also, DocScrutinizer05: What do you think about the mandatory "put wwan in every car" ? |
| 12:19.14 | Arch-TK | I think it sounds a lot like: "We want to be able to know where every car is at any time, and you get automatic calls when you crash." |
| 12:23.45 | Arch-TK | It sounds like this "ECall" is being implemented by some private company which also begs the question: Why another mandatory black-box technology which nobody can audit? |
| 12:25.12 | enyc | Arch-TK: we need EU legislation on requring open source auditable such things???? |
| 12:26.09 | Arch-TK | yes, but it seems that influencing what legislations are proposed is difficult, the only thing "we" can do is influence who we put in the EU parliament to vote for/against the legislations. |
| 12:26.42 | Arch-TK | certainly an EU legislation like that would be a major step forward. |
| 12:27.40 | Arch-TK | If the main focus of these things is "saving people's lives" that's great, but it would not be difficult to at the same time respond to the issue of privacy by simply making legislations to ensure all implementations are publicly auditable. |
| 12:28.00 | Arch-TK | But that wont happen because companies can make money out of competing on how quickly and how well they can save your life. |
| 12:29.23 | Arch-TK | they don't want to be forced to open their implementations because then their "magic life saving sauce" will get out |
| 12:29.47 | Arch-TK | and therefore there's always going to be that pressure on the EU not to do such things. |
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| 12:31.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | nope. This is public: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECall#Concept |
| 12:32.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | there's basically little to audit in the whole thing |
| 12:32.35 | Xiaoman | You could argue anybody going against opening up technology for that life saving purpose, so as to get the best quality possible, is actually harming people |
| 12:35.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | the call is to 112 which is public emergency dispatch number, and the protocol obviously is so open that even Russia jumped in with a 100% compatible system |
| 12:40.21 | Arch-TK | right, the protocol and the concept, but what about the implementation? |
| 12:40.50 | Arch-TK | Wouldn't it be easy to back door such things? |
| 12:42.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's a normal phone |
| 12:42.53 | wpwrak | Arch-TK: as i understand it, even the people of the UK show the EUrocrats the middle finger, it'll take several years until such a separation would actually have to be implemented. |
| 12:42.56 | Arch-TK | so there's no new backdoor potential that people aren't already aware of? |
| 12:42.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | of course it's as bad as all wireless connected to the car's databus |
| 12:43.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://www.imobilitysupport.eu/about-ecall/european-ecall-implementation-platform-eeip |
| 12:43.07 | wpwrak | Arch-TK: so i think nothing changes for your Neo900 :) |
| 12:43.32 | Arch-TK | cool |
| 12:44.05 | Arch-TK | I need to accumulate some money, add more to my downpayment and also increase it so I can change to purchasing the neo900 (not just NeoN) |
| 12:44.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | effects of brexit are expected to be immediate |
| 12:44.42 | Arch-TK | Well, I'm really curious what really would happen in case of a brexit. |
| 12:44.57 | wpwrak | btw, the parliament (that you elect) has very little power. it's the commission (that they appoint) that takes the decisions. |
| 12:45.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | first, the GBP goes down |
| 12:45.38 | Arch-TK | hmm... maybe I should convert my savings to EU or bitcoin or something. |
| 12:46.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | seems several of your fellow residents already did during the last daqys |
| 12:46.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | according to TV news there were queues at banks |
| 12:47.11 | wpwrak | i'd expect the EUR to suffer a lot more. and that in turn will boost the GBP. see what happened with CHF when the EUR tanked. switzerland had to adopt exchange restrictions argentina-style to halt the stampede. (in this case, towards the CHF) |
| 12:47.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | LOL nope |
| 12:47.39 | Arch-TK | and in the case of no exit, what do you think would happen to the EU vs GBP? |
| 12:47.53 | Arch-TK | EUR* |
| 12:47.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | not much |
| 12:48.10 | Arch-TK | Hmm... Maybe I should move all my savings to bitcoin overnight |
| 12:48.11 | wpwrak | EUR slightly up, i guess. for a bit, until the next trouble. |
| 12:48.16 | Arch-TK | bitcoin is unlikely to crash overnight |
| 12:48.31 | Arch-TK | I bet coinbase has some idiotic restrictions against doing things overnight though... |
| 12:49.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | why would the EUR suffer from a brexit? |
| 12:49.29 | wpwrak | i wouldn't expect any major medium-term changes. brexit or no, people will wake up tomorrow, see that the sun still rises in the east, go about their work, and soon normality will set in |
| 12:49.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | and how would that help the GBP? |
| 12:50.23 | wpwrak | but it would be a very welcome message for brussels. tell them that that clever plan for optimizing away democracy isn't going to work. |
| 12:50.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | wpwrak: again incorrect. At work they will notice uncertainty about what will be their order book in 2 years from now |
| 12:51.46 | wpwrak | EUR will suffer because a major contributor is leaving EU. weak EUR -> money flows to a stronger currency. GBP seems convenient then. (and the swiss will probably get a little nervous, again :) |
| 12:52.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | and yes, EU economy will suffer as well, but way less than GB economy will suffer |
| 12:52.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | major contributor? |
| 12:52.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | GB is a major annoyance |
| 12:53.42 | wpwrak | a lot in the UK is finances and such. if they even cared about streamlining with the EU, they'd have adopted the EUR long ago. so i don't think they're particularly worried. |
| 12:54.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | and though GB pays more than they get back (just like germany, only a faction of what germany does), GB negotiated a 66% payback of all their payments to EU |
| 12:54.31 | wpwrak | and in any case, look a switzerland. no EU, no EUR. yet it's not exactly a nation-wide slum, is it ? ;-) |
| 12:54.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | haha, ask london bankers if they're not worried |
| 12:55.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | and swizerland is absolutely irrelevant here |
| 12:55.41 | wpwrak | also, changing regulations mean that a lot of people get to charge their clients more ;-) |
| 12:56.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | huh? |
| 12:57.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | London is EU's and worldwide money hotspot. When GB leaves EU, London isn't EU either, so many companies will reconsider where to have their office |
| 12:58.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | no surpirse you hardly get any pro-brexit notion in London banker's community |
| 12:58.09 | end1 | furthermore scotland is likely to leave UK |
| 12:58.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | exactly |
| 12:58.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-) |
| 12:58.28 | wpwrak | end1: yes, that would be the fun part ;-) |
| 12:58.42 | end1 | wpwrak: at least not for the rest of the UK |
| 12:58.42 | Arch-TK | certainly the whole thing would be interesting |
| 12:58.57 | wpwrak | end1: also for the signal that would sent to the other "independence" movements |
| 12:59.10 | Arch-TK | Might not be in the best spectator position, being an EU national living in the UK, but it certainly would be interesting to see the effects of a brexit. |
| 12:59.16 | end1 | independent North Ireland and Wales will be funny |
| 12:59.19 | end1 | but not for england |
| 12:59.26 | end1 | as scotland and the others will join the EU |
| 12:59.39 | end1 | and englands economy is likely to be crushed |
| 13:00.13 | Arch-TK | crush!!! |
| 13:00.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | analysts anyway expect immediate impact on the GBP, and a economic cutdown in the range of 5 to 10% (iirc) during the next 2 years (which happens to be exactly the timespan England has to implement the exit) |
| 13:00.31 | wpwrak | DocScrutinizer05: the bankers favour governments they can influence. of course they're pro-EU, with its two-level representative "democracy". |
| 13:00.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | yayaya |
| 13:00.58 | end1 | democracy isn't always good |
| 13:01.14 | end1 | when hitler was elected, most germans voted for him |
| 13:01.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | they favor good business over uncertainty and economic decay, that's why |
| 13:01.19 | end1 | same with many dictators |
| 13:01.27 | end1 | guess erdogan was elected too ;) |
| 13:01.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | he was |
| 13:03.07 | end1 | but idc |
| 13:03.40 | end1 | if they want to see destruction, they will |
| 13:04.16 | wpwrak | end1: yeah, democracy has its flaws. especially bad in the representative form. that's what i favour direct democracy. if the government starts doing crazy things, the people can immediately stop it. |
| 13:04.39 | end1 | that's not working either |
| 13:04.41 | end1 | the problem is |
| 13:04.52 | end1 | people can be influenced by charismatic people / politicians |
| 13:05.04 | end1 | the mass of the people is stupid |
| 13:05.09 | end1 | if not all |
| 13:05.10 | wpwrak | end1: but EU has two layers of representation: first national (which you elect), and then they appoint the commission. so, as a voter, you have basically no control over that. |
| 13:05.23 | end1 | wpwrak: i know |
| 13:05.30 | end1 | the system is bad |
| 13:05.52 | end1 | still, leaving it would destroy things |
| 13:05.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | that doesn't mean destructing it will make stuff better |
| 13:06.20 | wpwrak | end1: yes, as an austrian living in argentina, i'm quite aware of populism, first from the history books, then for the last decade from daily life :) |
| 13:07.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | wpwrak: you got something wrong there. EU parliament is directly elected |
| 13:07.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | so no 2 levels of representation |
| 13:08.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | I agree however that you as voter have little to no control |
| 13:08.30 | wpwrak | i think the fears about a brexit are greatly exaggerated. it's not as if they'd move to a different galaxy. there'll be bilateral contacts that regulate all the important points. again, look at switzerland. there aren't a lot of obstacles between EU and CH. the main thing is immigration. but for business it's pretty smooth. |
| 13:08.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | and that's a very recent concern and movement to transfer more competence to the EU parliament and away from commission |
| 13:09.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | *shrug* |
| 13:09.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | I don't care |
| 13:09.24 | wpwrak | DocScrutinizer05: yes, but the parliament has no power. they can voice their disapproval or make suggestions, but that's about it. if the commission doesn't like their ideas, it can just ignore them. |
| 13:09.54 | wpwrak | DocScrutinizer05: but the structure is very clever |
| 13:10.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | likewise the parliament can ignore the commission's law proposals |
| 13:10.16 | wpwrak | (recent concern) well, let's see how that goes |
| 13:11.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | and before GB wil have bilateral regulations they first drop out of all the EU vs foreign contracts |
| 13:12.34 | wpwrak | (brexit) in any case, it's hard to convince people to make a change. so i'd be a bit surprised if the brexit actually happens. also, in that ~2 years transition period, there would be opportunities to revert it. |
| 13:12.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | im/export EU<->GB suddenly is undefined and sibject to get very problemstic, and the uncertainty about that particular subject already hass *massive* impact on GB's economy |
| 13:13.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | has* |
| 13:13.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | no revert |
| 13:13.37 | wpwrak | DocScrutinizer05: nothing would change the day after the brexit is decided. again, there's a transition period, with plenty of time to settle such things. |
| 13:13.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | when brexit gets decided, GB IS and will STAY out of EU |
| 13:14.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | again, such transition period is exactly 2 years and impact of uncertainty is immediate and massive |
| 13:15.42 | hellekin | I'm for UK GTFO. They were *never* fully part of the EU. I campaigned and voted against the Euro Zone in 1992 for the reason UK had so many exceptions. |
| 13:15.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | nobody will order any big thing behind the frontier when they don't know if they can import it in 2 years |
| 13:16.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | hellekin: ack |
| 13:16.42 | wpwrak | DocScrutinizer05: nobody will order something from china because there's too much uncertainty, given that it's not in the EU ;-) |
| 13:16.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | indeed |
| 13:17.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm still happy I have to physically travel to china to import a 500 devices without getting raped |
| 13:18.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | seems that's been my point |
| 13:18.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | thanks |
| 13:20.31 | wpwrak | at what time are results expected ? |
| 13:20.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | btw when you think I'm talking outa my rear end: I'm just quoting experts |
| 13:20.54 | hellekin | lol |
| 13:21.07 | wpwrak | what could possibly go wrong there ;-) |
| 13:21.08 | Arch-TK | wpwrak: 4am |
| 13:21.25 | wpwrak | wow. that's late. |
| 13:21.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, what could prolly go wrong with you having a better idea |
| 13:21.38 | Arch-TK | something preliminary at 00:30 or something |
| 13:21.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | after all you see the stuff from a distance that brings clear vision |
| 13:22.40 | wpwrak | so, 10 hours to wait. let's see what happens :) |
| 13:23.19 | Arch-TK | well, telegraph says between 4am and 7am |
| 13:23.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | you won't see results much earlier than now+16h |
| 13:23.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, in the morning |
| 13:24.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | since supposedly it's very 50/50 undecided and thus will take until last few 1000 ballots are counted |
| 13:25.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | might be surprisingly clear and thus early results though. Nobody knows for sure |
| 13:26.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | all statistics and polls were terribly wrong during the last few elections in GB |
| 13:26.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | so nobody gives a damn about what those prophets say |
| 13:28.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | wisdom of the masses says brexit will fail. 70+% think it will |
| 13:30.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | or wait, was that still one too few indirection? was the correct best-results question "what do you estimate *others would guess* what the result will be"? |
| 13:34.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway average of last three polls was "55% contra brexit". poll for "do you think brexit will succeed" was ~70+% that it will fail |
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| 13:35.53 | wpwrak | "who many people do you think would say that others do not believe the brexit will fail ?" |
| 13:36.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | then the crystal ball querying started and they evaluate how much the weather today may have impact on the results (pro brexit due to many young people and the less fanatic EU friendly not going to vote) |
| 13:38.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | sounds about correct, particularly when normalized as "how many people would say that others do believe the brexit will fail ?" |
| 13:38.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooh nixe plenking effect, ?" is on new line |
| 13:39.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | nice* |
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| 13:49.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | https://ixquick.com/do/search?q=impact+of+brexit+on+london+stock+exchange |
| 13:51.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | TV news just claim an expected 15% loss of GBP vs EUR. EUR will also suffer, but less |
| 13:55.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | on the bright side: Erdogan threatens to have a referendum "just like UK" if the EU-mebership negotioations should get canceled |
| 13:56.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | reminds me on Seehofer threatening to order home The berlin CSU politicians |
| 13:56.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | YESSSS! Please do! |
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| 14:13.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | historical data, rather than prognostics? https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2016/jun/14/pound-uk-inflation-bank-of-england-brexit-liquidity-push-business-live |
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| 14:33.14 | hellekin | Erdogan is a criminal and his racist country shouldn't be allowed to join the EU. |
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| 14:56.32 | end1 | >racist country |
| 14:56.34 | end1 | wtf. |
| 14:57.31 | end1 | so you do think a majority of turks is racist? |
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| 14:58.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'd say this is no sane assumption |
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| 15:32.10 | wpwrak | hellekin: you frenchmen could simply elect the Le Pen clan. they would balance erdogan nicely :-) |
| 16:03.23 | hellekin | wpwrak: honestly I was hoping for lepen to be elected instead of sarko. See #AnarchistsForTrump for the rationale ;) |
| 16:21.53 | wpwrak | you mean in the "make the situation so unbearable that people will revolt" sense ? tricky :) |
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| 17:23.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | seems doesn't work with Orban, neither with PISS |
| 17:23.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | and in Netherlands we also have a really terrible sucker hoping to get elected, no? |
| 17:23.59 | pigeons | wow is that the real acronym? |
| 17:24.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | I zhink so, yes ;-P |
| 17:24.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | think* |
| 17:24.28 | pigeons | hm :P |
| 17:25.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm PIS maybe |
| 17:27.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | Prawo i SprawiedliwoÅÄ, PiS |
| 17:29.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://pis.org.pl/ |
| 17:30.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | btw maybe don't visit that website, it still loads |
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| 23:44.58 | chomwitt1 | DocScrutinizer05: thanks . i looked at neo.org/git but it seems that there are no drivers there. |
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