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| 13:24.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | on a preliminary sidenote, resuming on my previous note about investor: looks extremely good :-) |
| 13:28.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: we have a job for you :-) We need a "FOSS" OS on N(eo)900 to already demonstrate there *is* a working OS available |
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| 13:29.31 | Arch-TK | If I had the device / the time to find out what exactly it needs and more time I could do that. |
| 13:29.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | how much for installing a 100% FOSS maemo built from source on a N900 and demonstrate what's working without proprietary blobs, and then show how a user would import the probably needed blobs to make a complete working fullgrown maemo? |
| 13:30.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | (not built on N900 of course - install on N900 ;-D ) |
| 13:30.49 | freemangordon_ | DocScrutinizer05: define "working" :) |
| 13:31.17 | bencoh | did you say "investor" ? |
| 13:31.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | for a start a X11 display possibly even with hildon desktop would be already fine |
| 13:31.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | bencoh: yep |
| 13:31.58 | freemangordon_ | hmm, we'd need binary blobs for that, unless HW accell is disabled |
| 13:32.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon_: nota bene we want a paid work |
| 13:32.12 | freemangordon_ | ah |
| 13:32.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | you're not supposed to do that for free |
| 13:32.38 | freemangordon_ | hmm, I have to think about that, but I am afraid I don;t have the free time needed to dedicate on such a task |
| 13:33.01 | freemangordon_ | but, lemme think about it |
| 13:33.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, just see how much free time you can allocate and we#ll decide if it's enough |
| 13:33.55 | freemangordon_ | maybe a joint effort from 2-3 guys would be better |
| 13:34.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure, find partners, Neo900 UG is not averse |
| 13:34.25 | freemangordon_ | I promise nothing :) |
| 13:34.39 | freemangordon_ | will see what can be done. Is there a dealine? |
| 13:34.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | you know better who's competent and fits into such a team |
| 13:34.43 | freemangordon_ | *deadline |
| 13:34.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | no deadline :-) |
| 13:34.59 | freemangordon_ | ok, define one then ;) |
| 13:35.14 | freemangordon_ | end of june? |
| 13:35.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | but please don't delay too much, I'd love to see an answer in next 7 days |
| 13:35.26 | freemangordon_ | ok |
| 13:35.27 | bencoh | now everyone, /clear, this "no deadline" line just never existed |
| 13:36.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | we will think about schedule requirements when we see what can get done at all |
| 13:36.31 | freemangordon_ | DocScrutinizer05: I'll think about how that can be organized and will discuss with you further |
| 13:36.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | generally rather speed up the process. If more team members help, get more :-) |
| 13:37.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | thanks :-) |
| 13:39.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | just in case you wonder: >>I would also suggest that you move forward by porting a few OS's and getting a few developers involved; I could also fund this side<< |
| 13:40.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | [quote of a source not to be named yet] |
| 13:45.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon_: see http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91308 -> http://omappedia.org/wiki/Maemo_Getting_Started#Beagle -- importing the free (as in beer) BLOB PowerVR drivers from TI is not a problem |
| 13:49.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | ...if they are really needed |
| 13:51.10 | freemangordon_ | DocScrutinizer05: if PVR driver is not a problem, then things should be much easier |
| 13:51.32 | freemangordon_ | unless there is a requirement for upstream libs |
| 13:52.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, to start with we only want a 'legal' demo |
| 13:52.16 | freemangordon_ | so, maemo5 with stripped closed parts? |
| 13:52.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 13:53.04 | freemangordon_ | booting to h-d only? with no telephony etc. that should be easily doable, just build infra should be set-up |
| 13:53.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | demonstrate that maemo5 "works" without closed©righted parts, then show how user could import the closed&(C) parts into such system from their own maemo5 image |
| 13:54.45 | freemangordon_ | hmm, importing from FW image is not something I would recommend |
| 13:55.47 | freemangordon_ | but I guess we should find a way to "make up" a package from binaries in the rootfs |
| 13:55.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | did you ever look into freetz? they basically do what we need: they use the AVM fritzbox FOSS sources and build a system, then during build the 'fiasco image' of AVM gets downloaded and extracted and the proprietary drivers e.g. for DSL and WLAN get integrated into the otherwise built-from-scratch system |
| 13:56.21 | bencoh | how would you "build maemo" from scratch/source? |
| 13:56.38 | freemangordon_ | bencoh: what is teh problem? |
| 13:56.38 | bencoh | is there an autobuilder button "compute deps and rebuild" or something? |
| 13:56.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | so they don't distribute nonfree stuff but leave it up to user to fetch those blobs her/himself |
| 13:57.03 | freemangordon_ | why autobuilder? |
| 13:57.23 | bencoh | I dunno, because it autobuilds packages and fetches deps where needed |
| 13:57.50 | bencoh | what would you do? display a build deps tree and start at the root? |
| 13:58.22 | freemangordon_ | wouldn;t debootstrap do the job? |
| 13:58.36 | bencoh | from source? not that I know of, no |
| 13:58.44 | bencoh | debootstrap fetches binary packages |
| 13:58.52 | freemangordon_ | why source, we have repository.maemo.org |
| 14:00.03 | bencoh | you'd need to push FOSS version of every package in rootfs there, then |
| 14:00.12 | bencoh | s/rootfs/stock/ |
| 14:00.28 | freemangordon_ | it is there already |
| 14:00.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | we need to demonstrate we can *build* an OS for a Neo900 proto (which is N900 so far) |
| 14:01.05 | freemangordon_ | hmm, ok |
| 14:01.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | we even need to *provide* that build which is _not_ the stock fremantle maemo5 |
| 14:01.24 | freemangordon_ | ok, got it |
| 14:01.42 | bencoh | freemangordon_: hmm, we don't have our own build from source in the repos, afaict :) |
| 14:01.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | the idea being that later on we can provide this as OS for Neo900 |
| 14:02.04 | freemangordon_ | yes, as this is debian based :) |
| 14:03.19 | freemangordon_ | DocScrutinizer05: does the "distro" shall include toolchain as well? |
| 14:03.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | I need a build where we can state "see, it already 'works', we only need to adapt a few things which are unique in Neo900, then users can download this very image to Neo900 as they now can download it to N900" |
| 14:04.10 | freemangordon_ | what is not clear to me is - do you need fiasko or a system which builds fiasko? |
| 14:04.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, actually for now (N900 proto) we will exploit fiasco. On Neo900 we will boot from uSD |
| 14:04.55 | bencoh | would vanilla debian do? |
| 14:05.10 | freemangordon_ | bencoh: we don;t have working h-d for debian |
| 14:05.26 | freemangordon_ | because of gtk3 |
| 14:05.35 | bencoh | debian dropped gtk2? |
| 14:05.47 | freemangordon_ | no, but gtk2 in maemo is patched a lot |
| 14:05.54 | bencoh | ah |
| 14:07.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon_: consider the Neo900 maemo build shall also run on beagleboard for example |
| 14:07.28 | freemangordon_ | DocScrutinizer05: still, I don;t understand the requirement - is it a system, which pulls sources from $somewhere, builds .debs and creates a distro on fiasco/mmc or fiasco/mmc image |
| 14:07.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | not mandatory, but as a perspective |
| 14:08.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | a build system |
| 14:08.08 | freemangordon_ | ok |
| 14:08.22 | freemangordon_ | it is clear now |
| 14:08.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | think of hosting that stuff on neo900.org - also not mandatory but a perspective |
| 14:09.13 | freemangordon_ | DocScrutinizer05: also, what about the toolchain? Shall it be build as well or pre-build toolchain is ok? |
| 14:09.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | prebuilt is ok |
| 14:09.32 | freemangordon_ | ok |
| 14:09.56 | freemangordon_ | then, some scripts in SB should do the job IMO |
| 14:10.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually it's sufficient when user can e.g. download a VM and start a make in it |
| 14:10.23 | freemangordon_ | ok |
| 14:10.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | we don't need to build on server |
| 14:10.40 | freemangordon_ | sure |
| 14:11.25 | freemangordon_ | though, for the real-life, I don;t think bulding from source is something the lusers should do |
| 14:11.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure, we can provide binaries for all the free stuff |
| 14:12.02 | freemangordon_ | for example - QT build takes ~1 hour on quad core |
| 14:12.08 | freemangordon_ | same for microb |
| 14:12.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | user will nevertheless do some "building" to integrate the nonfree blobs |
| 14:12.11 | freemangordon_ | etc. |
| 14:12.31 | freemangordon_ | :nod: |
| 14:13.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | but to start, just see how far we get without tackling the blob issue |
| 14:13.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | blob integration is phase2 |
| 14:13.16 | freemangordon_ | DocScrutinizer05: maybe create some UR doc, to have a common base to discuss on |
| 14:13.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm, I'm terrible at producing such docs. I can help |
| 14:14.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | when you write up a draft, I'll proofread and edit it |
| 14:14.56 | freemangordon_ | I am terrible on docs as well, maybe ask you PR department :P |
| 14:15.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | if only we had one |
| 14:16.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway the background is: our customers don't feel confortable with the "pick the OS of your choice", they want us to provide something |
| 14:16.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | so we need something to show off |
| 14:17.08 | freemangordon_ | ok |
| 14:17.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | with the perspective to actually provide that thing later on |
| 14:17.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | Neo900 UG supports but isn't directly involved in development |
| 14:18.41 | freemangordon_ | ok, will think about how and if I can help |
| 14:18.59 | freemangordon_ | gtg now, cya |
| 14:18.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | thanks a lot. We really need you (and pali, I guess) |
| 14:19.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | cya |
| 14:19.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | gotta go too |
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| 14:56.03 | jackhill | If I don't want to use non-free blobs, will the Neo900 work without them or are they manditory |
| 14:58.24 | DocScrutinizer51 | they are supposed to be optional |
| 14:58.52 | jackhill | cool, thanks |
| 14:59.39 | DocScrutinizer51 | however for some functions you'll need blobs, e.g opengl-es 3D acceleration, WLAN |
| 15:01.36 | DocScrutinizer51 | SHR for example works without |
| 15:02.58 | DocScrutinizer51 | for WLAN we don't have a executable but some initialization data to send to the subsystem, so this doesn't really qualify for the "closed blob" thing |
| 15:03.58 | DocScrutinizer51 | see our FAQ |
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| 21:31.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | copy from our internal channel: >> werner [not almesberger] says LEDs are D65 6500 kelvin, but he will check with a meter << |
| 21:32.01 | wpwrak | (c) kewl. there is a 6500 K version, with the same CRI as the 5700 K version i currently have. |
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| 21:47.07 | enyc | likes 5300k ;p |
| 21:47.45 | enyc | due to availability of 'new old stock' Tridonic ECO dimmable ballasts, I put in Philips Graphica Pro lamps in one of my workrooms =) |
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| 21:47.50 | enyc | 98CRI =) |
| 21:48.43 | enyc | really interested to know, how you would go about sourcing reasonable quality/consistency (but not silly expensive) 12v (or 24v) led strip, 3528 leds or 5050 leds... i.e. not individual leds but 'tape'/strip |
| 21:49.25 | enyc | you can get the stucff ''cheap'' but theres no consistency =( |
| 21:49.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep |
| 21:50.34 | enyc | so, what *approach* to trying to get consistency at reasonable price with decent part spec ?? |
| 21:50.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | nfc |
| 21:51.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | get a bin directly from manufacturer |
| 21:52.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | odds are you can get a reel with LEDs of one bin, which would be only a maybe 2500 components |
| 21:52.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | unbinned crap is cheaper of course |
| 21:53.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | no idea how the differences inb one production run emerge |
| 21:53.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | but good brand manufs do decent binning anyway |
| 21:54.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | of course binning costs extra |
| 21:54.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | aka premium |
| 22:16.12 | enyc | i see |
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| 22:16.13 | enyc | ok thankyou |
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| 22:32.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | some guy ordered a iirc 450W LED beamer with Phillips LEDs for automotive. Funny enough the whole bar only drew 10A @ 12V |
| 22:33.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | china-lumen, china-watts |
| 22:37.43 | wpwrak | "Watt equivalent" ;-) |
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