| 01:21.16 | *** join/#neo900 infobot (ibot@69-58-76-73.ut.vivintwireless.net) |
| 01:21.16 | *** topic/#neo900 is http://neo900.org | CCCAMP15 lightning talks at http://neo900.org/stuff/cccamp15/ - major: http://neo900.org/stuff/cccamp15/ccc2015talk/neo900-wpwrak_CCC2015.webm | conversations are logged to http://infobot.rikers.org/%23neo900/ and http://irclog.whitequark.org/neo900 |
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| 03:32.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://wstaw.org/m/2015/09/30/plasma-desktopJc9051.png |
| 03:37.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://www.silabs.com/Support Documents/TechnicalDocs/AN332.pdf |
| 03:37.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | I wonder (not really ;D ) what FSF would think of that |
| 03:39.15 | Oksana | That changable firmware should have source code openly available to the people using the firmware, and they should be able to verify that their firmware is indeed compiled from this source code? |
| 03:39.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | the chip has *) embedded firmware that *) can't get updated *) nevertheless it may receive 'blob' non-FOSS software, but that's not mandatory |
| 03:40.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | Oksana: the firmware in chip can't even get read out, so how would you confirm the firmware in chip is what your sourcecode (non-existent) suggests it is? |
| 03:42.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | and Nota Bene: the firmware is NOT changeable |
| 03:42.36 | Oksana | If you trust it with flashing process, flash it with completely new component image? |
| 03:42.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | it just can get temporarily overridden by a patch blob |
| 03:43.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | you cannot flash that thing! |
| 03:43.41 | Oksana | Patch can be used ... to download an entirely new component image? |
| 03:44.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | you can upload encrypted signed firmware patches into the volatile RAM, so they override the fixed firmware in device |
| 03:45.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | and yes, that could as well be a complete new firmware image (which is ~15kB size then) |
| 03:45.46 | Oksana | Okay, so you would need to re-upload at each start-up, and somehow you would need to be sure of contents of encrypted signed firmware patch and the image it downloads? |
| 03:46.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | err yes? |
| 03:46.59 | Oksana | is not sure if image is inside-the-patch or downloaded-from-elsewhere-by-the-patch . And not sure if it is possible to verify how source code matches-or-not encrypted-signed-binary |
| 03:47.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | err, how would a chip "download from elsewhere"? |
| 03:48.13 | Oksana | Okay, so large-patch=completely-new-component-image |
| 03:48.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | via FM? from WWleetHaxor? |
| 03:49.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://wstaw.org/m/2015/09/30/plasma-desktopvr9051.png |
| 03:58.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | btw this is probably the most common scheme found on those little controllers - be it Ambient Light Sensor or accelerometer or whatever. Just most of them don't even mention the register function, those registers are simply listed as "internal" and not supposed to get used by user. Some chip manufs warn to never write to those registers since that may damage the chip irrecoverably. Very few actually document the patch feature |
| 04:00.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | FSF approach regarding peripheral subsystems is just to simplistic |
| 04:01.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | in times where virtually everything (sure every chip with a moderate or higher complexity) has a tiny MCU inside |
| 04:07.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | every NIC in your PC has a firmware. Your HDD, your DVD drive, your USB controller, heck even your power supply probably has (an arbitrary number >=1 of) MCUs embedded into chips embedded into the device, and each of those little MCUs has firmware |
| 04:08.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | just usually you don't even know _that_ they have any MCU and firmware, you only can guess |
| 04:09.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | neither do you know if that firmware could get updated, until the manuf is kind enough to document that update feature |
| 04:10.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | which is the moment where FSF forbids to use the chip since then it's obvious that it has a firmware and no public source for it |
| 04:11.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | result: not what FSF hopes for, but rather the opposite - no manuf will mention the firmware update feature so they don't get involved into futile debates with FSF |
| 04:15.08 | Oksana | Well, it would be nice if the "inner" documents with details on patches and updates were easily available. To be fair, I haven't ever tried to disassembly a power supply and take a look at its chips, and the firmware for them |
| 04:16.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure it would be nice. However for many companies that's more than 50% of their vital assets which they don't want to disclose to anybody, particularly not to competitors |
| 04:19.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | see SiLabs and their FM chip. It even has patents on the inner structure. Now you can bet they made those patents in a way that doesn't give away too much on how they actually implemented that stuff, and likewise they wouldn't want to publish detailed specs on the chip's internals. However such details are mandatory for anybody to understand the firmware sourcecode |
| 04:23.17 | Oksana | Tear apart? |
| 04:23.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | maybe they even developed their own proprietary programming language to write the firmware for the chip. So what would you do with the sourcecode when ypu don't have the language "educational books" nor the detailed specifications of each single internal register in the chip. And those internal registers in turn don't make much sense when you don't have detailed manual for the DSP and other custom made function blocks they control |
| 04:27.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | lemme give you an example: http://paste.opensuse.org/78917648 would be part of) the "sourcecode" for a very tiny customer configurable chip we're going to use for simmux in Neo900. Now if there wasn't a publicly available tool to make use of that "sourcecode", what would you do with it? |
| 04:28.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | the binary from such sourcecode is a 1024bit dump you upload/flash to the chip |
| 04:30.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | honestly, hardware a tad different a world than SOFTWARE which is what Free SOFTWARE Foundation is all about |
| 04:34.07 | Oksana | First, I would need to read from XML into a good variable. Second, I would need to decipher what these values are to be used for? This thing looks like it described a GUI, something with pictures and text. To control power from CPU to modem, maybe? Just a wild guess |
| 04:34.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, exactly. almost. To control power from modem, CPU, NFC to SIM |
| 04:35.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | however that sourceode gives you nothing |
| 04:36.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | you need the kanguage definition too, or the actual compiler. Then FSF would require the compiler also is FOSS which it clearly isn't, and so on ad infinitum |
| 04:37.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | exactly same with our EDA/ECAD eagle. Yes, we may eventually publish the project files, however they are worthless for FSF since the 'compiler' (eagle) is not FOSS |
| 04:38.31 | Oksana | Language definition may allow to write a compiler, or interpreter into different language. As long as you already know architecture of the chip (MCU?) for which you need to compile. And I am guessing that compiler has to fit the final binary into the memory-limits of the chip. | Does ECAD have a language definition? |
| 04:40.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | nobody is going to ever publish such language definition for the project files of closed-source tools. Not even M$ did, for .doc format |
| 04:42.49 | Oksana | And for docx? How does OpenOffice read-write them? | Arduino uses Eagle, how does FSF live with that? | And yes, I do not see anything open-source working with Eagle files |
| 04:43.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | go ask any write to please provide the "sourcecode" for their text they published. I.E. the .doc file. Then you realize that it's worthless without M$ word to process it, then you ask for a "language definition" so you could write a OpenOffice so you could actually use the 'source code' to modify it... OK we all know .doc has been RE'ed and there already exists an OpenOffice which mostly knows how to handle .doc files, though not always |
| 04:43.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | any writer* |
| 04:44.56 | Oksana | Some writers do provide source code. But when they care about that, they provide tex. I was actually wondering if publishers could keep the "source code" for a century-or-so, to publish when work goes into public domain |
| 04:44.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway this is an age old problem |
| 04:47.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | and FSF won't solve it with their approach of "don't tell us you used M$ word to produce that text on that page of paper! Let us believe you panted it by hand, dot by dot, or we will refuse the read that paper until you hand us a FOSS sourcecode" |
| 04:51.34 | Oksana | KiCad: There are also tools to help with importing components from other EDA applications, for instance EAGLE. Eagle 6.xx PCB files can be directly imported to KiCad. What's your version of Eagle? |
| 04:54.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | this changes with release of new versions |
| 04:57.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway that's all irrelevant since I'm not willing to let FSF define which wristwatch I may use to check it's time to stop work and go to sleep now. Based on the assertion that such wrist watch might have non-FOSS firmware |
| 04:57.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | n8 |
| 04:57.27 | Oksana | Good night ;-) |
| 04:58.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | when no linux code getting executed on it, FSF please keep your fingers off that subsystem |
| 05:01.57 | Oksana | Heh... /looking at Pebble Time and wondering about firmware in it/ |
| 05:44.28 | Oksana | Nice... https://github.com/upverter/schematic-file-converter Eagle <-> KiCad, and other formats too |
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| 12:27.07 | enyc | hrrms |
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| 13:25.30 | sdfdsdsdfdsfsdfs | hello all |
| 13:25.45 | sdfdsdsdfdsfsdfs | what is the release date to the neo900? |
| 13:26.22 | sdfdsdsdfdsfsdfs | DocScrutinizer05: dos1 wpwrak, u guys here? |
| 13:26.53 | sdfdsdsdfdsfsdfs | also, in the microblog you guys said pre-ordering now if i want to be in the first batch? |
| 13:27.27 | sdfdsdsdfdsfsdfs | does that means if i dont preorder now i wont be able order a neo900 when you actually start sending them out? |
| 13:31.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | hi! unclear. Right now we are about to source the first 250 N900 devices, and it's not warranted that we can get more with a second order |
| 13:32.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | release date estimated is still Q1/2016 |
| 13:32.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | we're optimists :-) |
| 13:33.49 | sdfdsdsdfdsfsdfs | DocScrutinizer05: do you already have 250 preorders? is it too late for me? |
| 13:34.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's not too late |
| 13:34.17 | sdfdsdsdfdsfsdfs | how many left? |
| 13:34.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | but about time |
| 13:34.43 | sdfdsdsdfdsfsdfs | im not sure ill be able to source the cash now it may take me a few weeks |
| 13:34.45 | sdfdsdsdfdsfsdfs | am i fucked? |
| 13:34.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, some 10 of dirst batch are still without 'owner' |
| 13:34.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | first* |
| 13:35.20 | sdfdsdsdfdsfsdfs | oh no |
| 13:35.29 | sdfdsdsdfdsfsdfs | so they'll be gone by next week probably |
| 13:35.32 | sdfdsdsdfdsfsdfs | :( |
| 13:35.33 | sdfdsdsdfdsfsdfs | :'( |
| 13:35.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, actually recently not that many orders |
| 13:36.27 | MonkeyofDoom | oh, right |
| 13:36.36 | MonkeyofDoom | I don't know if I ever did the voucher thing or whatnot |
| 13:36.44 | MonkeyofDoom | how does that work... |
| 13:37.51 | sdfdsdsdfdsfsdfs | DocScrutinizer05: if i place preorder now are you guys guaranteeing u will deliver final product and won't disappear with all our money? |
| 13:37.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | place your preorder, insert voucher code |
| 13:38.17 | MonkeyofDoom | mm |
| 13:38.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, I didn't find a black hole large enough to swallow me yet :-) |
| 13:39.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, busy. BBL |
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| 13:40.10 | asddsfsdadsd | hey DocScrutinizer05 its me sdssfdsddsds i got disconnected |
| 13:40.39 | asddsfsdadsd | i was asking is there a guarantee by u guys to deliver final product or give us our money back? |
| 13:41.00 | asddsfsdadsd | or is it like "oh well we'll try but if money disappears sry nothing can do about it" |
| 13:41.04 | edwin | http://irclog.whitequark.org/neo900/2015-09-30#14169018; |
| 13:41.39 | edwin | asddsfsdadsd: see the irc logs there for the time you were disconnected |
| 13:42.19 | asddsfsdadsd | edwin: he didnt answer my question |
| 13:50.20 | MonkeyofDoom | DocScrutinizer05: I can't seem to select a state in the address editor :x |
| 13:50.31 | MonkeyofDoom | it worked when signing up for the account, but I wanted to add a billing address |
| 13:51.02 | MonkeyofDoom | after picking "united states", the state field doesn't show up until you try to submit the form; once you do submit, the only item in the state drop-down is "-" |
| 13:53.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | asddsfsdadsd: [2015-09-30 Wed 15:38:34] <DocScrutinizer05> yes, I didn't find a black hole large enough to swallow me yet :-) |
| 13:54.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | MonkeyofDoom: please check JS support in your browser, try different browser |
| 13:55.02 | asddsfsdadsd | DocScrutinizer05: but wait isnt a black hole a singularity? |
| 13:55.14 | asddsfsdadsd | DocScrutinizer05: or are you talking about the event horizon? |
| 13:55.35 | asddsfsdadsd | DocScrutinizer05: how could you not find black hole with big enough event horizon literally any black hole would do |
| 13:55.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm talking about vanishing which I seem incapable to do even from IRC |
| 13:56.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | though I have some shopping to do before closing hours |
| 13:56.23 | MonkeyofDoom | eh, managed to get it working via poking at form values... |
| 13:56.25 | asddsfsdadsd | DocScrutinizer05: well yeah thats what they all say b4 they run off with all ur money |
| 13:56.47 | jake42 | asddsfsdadsd: there is a "terms of service" you have to agree before placing your order. Read and understand :-) |
| 13:56.47 | asddsfsdadsd | DocScrutinizer05: is there any legal binding u have to not disappear? |
| 13:56.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, I can't hand you a pledge |
| 13:57.26 | asddsfsdadsd | jake42: oh so in ToS it states he is obliged to give me money back if he doesnt deliver? |
| 13:57.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure, I have 300 customers who will get out their pitchforks and chase me to court |
| 13:58.07 | asddsfsdadsd | DocScrutinizer05: as a privacy expert im sure u know how to disappear |
| 13:58.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | and I have a legit company registered at Handelsregister |
| 13:58.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, really busy. 'funny' conversation but I have to run |
| 13:59.25 | asddsfsdadsd | i dont like his tone seems too cheeky |
| 13:59.35 | asddsfsdadsd | like hes employing reverse psychology |
| 13:59.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | when you feel unconfortable, please do not order |
| 14:00.03 | asddsfsdadsd | ok ill order |
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| 14:01.51 | asddsfsdadsdf | hey does anyone here actually know him personally? |
| 14:01.58 | asddsfsdadsdf | like where he lives and such? |
| 14:02.41 | jake42 | asddsfsdadsdf: doc lives where his company lives (see address on neo900.org) |
| 14:03.10 | asddsfsdadsdf | oh i see |
| 14:03.15 | asddsfsdadsdf | ok i guess |
| 14:03.44 | jake42 | have visited him once in a bar near by, he's a nice guy |
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| 14:05.08 | asddsfsdadsdfs | all con artists seem like nice guys, jake42 |
| 14:05.20 | asddsfsdadsdfs | did u catch a glimpse of his soul? |
| 14:05.54 | jake42 | asddsfsdadsdfs: you're right |
| 14:06.01 | EndZ | dftt. |
| 14:06.01 | jake42 | how do I know :-) |
| 14:06.29 | asddsfsdadsdfs | jake42: when u looked into his eyes what did u see? |
| 14:06.41 | asddsfsdadsdfs | jake42: did u see greed? |
| 14:07.36 | asddsfsdadsdfs | jake42: and what was he doing in the bar? was he scamming people with bar bets? |
| 14:08.24 | jake42 | certainly not, though if he would be a con, I wouldn't know :-) |
| 14:08.56 | asddsfsdadsdfs | hmmm |
| 14:08.58 | jake42 | asddsfsdadsdfs: mostly drinking and talking |
| 14:09.35 | asddsfsdadsdfs | we should dig up his background |
| 14:09.45 | asddsfsdadsdfs | see where he studied high school |
| 14:09.53 | asddsfsdadsdfs | ask his classmates about his personality |
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| 14:10.07 | asddsfsdadsdfs | anyone got any info on which high school he finished? |
| 14:12.15 | asddsfsdadsdfs | srsly am i the first one who asked for some background on this guy? |
| 14:12.47 | asddsfsdadsdfs | i wud imagine there would already be a detailed file on him prepared for people like me asking about him |
| 14:13.02 | asddsfsdadsdfs | we are literally giving him thousands of euros |
| 14:13.07 | jake42 | what would info about his background change? |
| 14:13.33 | jake42 | if he wanted to run with the money he would have done it already |
| 14:13.48 | asddsfsdadsdfs | no he's waiting for the final moment |
| 14:13.54 | asddsfsdadsdfs | raking in as much as he can |
| 14:13.54 | jake42 | which would be? |
| 14:14.01 | MonkeyofDoom | open source hardware is not exactly a "get rich quick" scheme... |
| 14:14.14 | MonkeyofDoom | you'd be more effective by taking a job at some engineering company |
| 14:14.32 | asddsfsdadsdfs | 1. open up website with a picture of nokia n900 and list cool features |
| 14:14.44 | asddsfsdadsdfs | 2. reach out to privacy crowd |
| 14:14.49 | asddsfsdadsdfs | 3. get popular in privacy crowd |
| 14:14.55 | asddsfsdadsdfs | 4. ask for preorders |
| 14:15.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91142 |
| 14:15.04 | asddsfsdadsdfs | 5. say if not enough preorders than no product |
| 14:15.32 | asddsfsdadsdfs | 6. wait until last possible moment and u got hundreds of preorders |
| 14:15.54 | asddsfsdadsdfs | 7. disappear with over 100k euro |
| 14:16.02 | asddsfsdadsdfs | fucking brilliant if u ask me |
| 14:16.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | dude, If I had worked in industry instead of doing this damn project, I had made twice as much in the same time |
| 14:16.35 | jake42 | no, the project also is spending money on progressing |
| 14:16.58 | MonkeyofDoom | 100k euro... now you can retire and live the good life! |
| 14:17.03 | MonkeyofDoom | :| |
| 14:17.08 | asddsfsdadsdfs | well |
| 14:17.14 | jake42 | and you can watch the progress by yourself |
| 14:17.18 | MonkeyofDoom | ^ |
| 14:17.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | please don't order!! |
| 14:17.35 | asddsfsdadsdfs | DocScrutinizer05: no stop with ur reverse psychology im going to order |
| 14:18.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | I hope I can reject that order. I got other stuff to do than to babysit worried customers |
| 14:18.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | I got a device to develop and produce |
| 14:18.57 | asddsfsdadsdfs | DocScrutinizer05: no pls i need that phone |
| 14:19.00 | asddsfsdadsdfs | pls dont reject |
| 14:20.10 | asddsfsdadsdfs | r u data mining me? |
| 14:20.15 | asddsfsdadsdfs | pls stop DocScrutinizer05 |
| 14:20.42 | asddsfsdadsdfs | u r violating my privacy |
| 14:22.06 | asddsfsdadsdfs | DocScrutinizer05: wtf stop pinging me |
| 14:22.33 | asddsfsdadsdfs | dude ur going against ur own principles |
| 14:22.33 | *** mode/#neo900 [+o DocScrutinizer05] by ChanServ |
| 14:22.48 | *** mode/#neo900 [+q asddsfsdadsdfs!*@*] by DocScrutinizer05 |
| 14:22.59 | Wizzup | thx |
| 14:23.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | yw |
| 14:23.07 | *** mode/#neo900 [-o DocScrutinizer05] by ChanServ |
| 14:23.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually doing nothing, sent a CTCP VERSION *once* |
| 14:23.54 | EndZ | classic IRC trolls. |
| 14:24.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | now for real: BBL |
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| 14:31.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | btw I noticed it's hard to find the TOS since there's no link, so here they are: https://my.neo900.org/index.php?id_cms=3&controller=cms&id_lang=1&content_only=1 |
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