| 00:00.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | "you get it for freee!!" waving with a beer bottle he prolly got for free |
| 00:03.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | one funny argumentation line: "login screen needs screenreader (for blind people) which needs PA" |
| 00:06.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | hey, dos1 went offline immediately after sending out newsletter? |
| 00:09.48 | *** join/#neo900 comradekingu (~comradeki@109.108.219.28) |
| 00:10.17 | comradekingu | Heia, looking at http://neo900.org/stuff/neo900-block-diagram.pdf how is it possible to get 1GB of memory. Shouldnt it be 512MB ram and 1GB nand? |
| 00:10.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | jonwil: actually except of "it's faster" and "it's more modern" I don't know of any arguments pro systemd |
| 00:11.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | comradekingu: we hope to get the 1GB RAM + 512MB NAND PoP variant |
| 00:12.46 | comradekingu | last time i looked at memory chips for omap3 it wasnt possible to get 2x512MB memory lpddr1 or whatever it was |
| 00:13.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | https://www.google.com/search?q=kce00e00ca&ie=UTF-8 |
| 00:14.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | err, last time I looked it was possible, via CS1 / CS2 |
| 00:14.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | and iirc N9 does exactly this, no? |
| 00:15.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | oops, sorry, misparsed that, thought you're talking about physical address space available on OMAP3 |
| 00:16.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep, took us ages to finally spot that chip |
| 00:16.26 | comradekingu | good find |
| 00:16.56 | comradekingu | what are the options for emmc? Swap it out with uSD and let users supply their own? |
| 00:19.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | though wpwrak loves the idea, I'm averse since uSD has only 4bit bus and thus inevitably half the bandwidth (aka speed) |
| 00:19.27 | wpwrak | comradekingu: oh, please convince DocScrutinizer05 that more uSD is the way to go :) i tried my best be he's just too much in love with bandwidth. |
| 00:19.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | ;-P |
| 00:19.47 | wpwrak | DocScrutinizer05: same thought, opposite directions ;-) |
| 00:20.39 | comradekingu | random IOPS is more important imo than top end bandwidth |
| 00:21.15 | comradekingu | unless im missing a use for the bandwidth, capture raw image sensor data? |
| 00:21.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, eMMC for sure is *at least* as fast as uSD on that as well |
| 00:21.55 | comradekingu | Yes, but uSD makes it cheaper to produce, and has less repairs since breaking emmc invalidates the whole board |
| 00:22.24 | wpwrak | bw_needed is a function of RAM you can spare for caching and the amount of data you really have to read/write in one step |
| 00:22.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm, and breaking flimsy uSd holder wouldn't ? |
| 00:22.58 | comradekingu | DocScrutinizer05: there is "military grade" flimsiness to be had |
| 00:23.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | haha |
| 00:23.10 | comradekingu | Besides, that is a user error, not covered by warranty |
| 00:23.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm not worried about warranty issues |
| 00:23.48 | comradekingu | On the real though, uSD offers speed or storage, which makes for a better fit for a wider userbase |
| 00:24.00 | wpwrak | comradekingu: don't forget future-proofing: you pay the $/GB price for on-board memory at the time of manufacturing. if it's a slot, you pay then you need it. for me, all other arguments pretty much fade away at that point :) |
| 00:24.21 | comradekingu | that was the next slide on my powerpoint |
| 00:24.30 | wpwrak | ;-) |
| 00:24.38 | comradekingu | i felt i was in the power-zone |
| 00:25.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, this decision is finalized to the point of "show me a uSD that's at least on par with eMMC and we will opt for it. Otherwise not" |
| 00:25.06 | comradekingu | What is the bulk price on 32GB eMMC now? |
| 00:25.27 | comradekingu | DocScrutinizer05: what kind of metrics are you working with |
| 00:25.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | speed |
| 00:25.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | particularly swap speed |
| 00:25.46 | comradekingu | Give me some numbers to try and match |
| 00:26.22 | wpwrak | ok, full disclosure: i have one argument in favour of DocScrutinizer05's choice: only one MMC port is in the 3.3 V domain of the OMAP, the rest are in the 1.8 V domain. so another card would need some level shifting. |
| 00:26.32 | comradekingu | swapping to emmc isnt a regular use case, nor how it ideally should be used, but ok |
| 00:26.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, can't share just some numbers. You will need to compare what's available for eMMC with what's available for uSD |
| 00:27.05 | comradekingu | yes, but what am i comparing to |
| 00:27.11 | wpwrak | swap to flash == you're doing something very very wrong |
| 00:27.17 | comradekingu | what is the cost and performance of the 32GB emmc you selected |
| 00:27.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | swapping on eMMC not a regular usecase? duh! |
| 00:27.53 | comradekingu | when are you swapping to emmc? |
| 00:28.31 | comradekingu | which would be a similar performance hit to take on uSD |
| 00:29.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | wpwrak: what else would you swap to? |
| 00:29.07 | comradekingu | provided the uSD is of the few good ones, and not the very bad ones |
| 00:29.26 | comradekingu | why are we swapping on a phone, thats where you lost me |
| 00:29.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | comradekingu: we didn't select a eMMC yet |
| 00:29.41 | wpwrak | comradekingu: good, you covered the "how does is matter if you take a 1:2 performance hit after you've taken a 1:10 or worse hit" :) |
| 00:30.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | IroN900:~# free |
| 00:30.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:30.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | Mem: 245540 241772 3768 0 7932 59288 |
| 00:30.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | -/+ buffers/cache: 174552 70988 |
| 00:30.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | Swap: 786424 133608 652816 |
| 00:30.46 | wpwrak | DocScrutinizer05: that's meaningless. linux moves stale stuff to swap, just to make room. |
| 00:31.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | teach me about swap? |
| 00:31.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | not needed |
| 00:31.11 | comradekingu | im asking what use-case is it that uses that much ram |
| 00:31.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | usecase: maemo |
| 00:31.55 | comradekingu | how much does that use |
| 00:32.05 | wpwrak | you need the frequency at which pages are moved. things on swap may very well never be swapped back in. |
| 00:32.09 | drathir | hang phone when ram end? even at memory leaks occur... |
| 00:32.34 | drathir | memory never too much ;p |
| 00:32.55 | comradekingu | isnt it called mer project nowadays |
| 00:33.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | huh? |
| 00:33.20 | comradekingu | its not maemo anymore |
| 00:33.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | err |
| 00:33.51 | drathir | mer isnt something with xorg and ubuntu? |
| 00:34.00 | comradekingu | it was maemo, moblin, meego, then mer |
| 00:34.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | and then sailfish |
| 00:34.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | but we're not building a successor for jolla |
| 00:34.24 | comradekingu | when nokia was doing the same as intel for a while it was haermhattan |
| 00:35.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | we're building a device that is binary compatible to maemo fremantle |
| 00:35.15 | comradekingu | well anyway, how does one use 1GB of ram on a phone that doesnt run android |
| 00:35.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | I dunno |
| 00:35.29 | comradekingu | If i had 128GB worth of uSD i could fill it up with FLAC files |
| 00:35.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | if you had 128GB of eMMC you could do the same |
| 00:36.02 | comradekingu | except i dont |
| 00:36.12 | comradekingu | I have 32GB |
| 00:36.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | well |
| 00:36.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | what's your point? |
| 00:36.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | wpwrak: I told you to fix that 32GB figure |
| 00:37.14 | comradekingu | That while swapping may or may not be better on emmc, its a bit of a moot point on a phone with 1GB ram, and that choice wins on uSD in terms of practical differences it can make |
| 00:37.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, this decision is finalized |
| 00:37.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | as mentioned above |
| 00:38.10 | comradekingu | If i have 128GB then im spending 50+ dollar on something i dont need if i could get away with 4GB uSD |
| 00:38.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | this argument applies to 95% of goodies in Neo900 |
| 00:38.44 | comradekingu | Its in red here http://neo900.org/stuff/neo900-block-diagram.pdf thought it was still in decision stage |
| 00:38.48 | wpwrak | uh, 32 GB ? GigaBytes. not correct anymore ? |
| 00:39.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | wpwrak: the size of eMMC been not decided on, at any time. It's >=32GB |
| 00:39.57 | wpwrak | so 32 GB, all red, seems right :) all red = no clue ;-) |
| 00:40.01 | comradekingu | There are combo flimsyslots for SIM/uSD |
| 00:40.12 | wpwrak | plus, it's for post-v2 |
| 00:40.22 | comradekingu | There are additional sdio lines on a omap3, so maybe everyone could get something |
| 00:40.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | still see above |
| 00:40.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | it is not decided to be 32GB |
| 00:40.43 | comradekingu | what isnt decided yet? |
| 00:42.26 | comradekingu | you can see uSD cards doing quite well here http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/microsd-cards-2014/benchmarks,169.html |
| 00:42.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | we will use the fastest largest most economic eMMC available at production time |
| 00:42.34 | comradekingu | lots of phones use uSD for internal |
| 00:43.06 | comradekingu | i dont think eMMC is an economic choice since it isnt the newest eMMC standard |
| 00:43.32 | wpwrak | comradekingu: and you haven't seem my arguments with UBB yet, in case you need real-life DIY electronics vs. extra storage :) UBB: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/UBB |
| 00:44.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, busy. bbl |
| 00:44.47 | comradekingu | nice |
| 00:54.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | how's UBB depending on having a 2nd uSD in place of eMMC? |
| 00:55.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | we had all that discussion before. pointless to repeat |
| 00:57.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's not like Neo900 had no uSD slot at all, to start with |
| 00:59.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | the question is not "uSD or eMMC" (in which case I'd clearly opt for uSD), the question is "uSD+eMMC or 2*uSD". And I clearly favor the mixed couple |
| 00:59.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | 2*uSD sounds pretty silly |
| 01:00.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | unless uSD was better than eMMC, which it most likely isn't |
| 01:08.55 | wpwrak | (UBB) UBB needs a bit of room for solder pads, cable, etc. so it's likely that it has to be external. you remarked yourself that it probably won't fit into the N900 uSD holder. |
| 01:09.45 | wpwrak | "better" could mean "upgradeable" :) uSD shines there ... |
| 01:11.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, upgradeable is no valid parameter for the hw system design aka chip selection |
| 01:11.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | you got one slot for "upgradeable" storage |
| 01:11.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | why do you need two? |
| 01:13.13 | wpwrak | system (stays in place but can be upgraded) + user (quick access, may or may not be there) |
| 01:15.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | there's no such assignment of dedicated system storage and user storage, and I don't see why you need more than 32GB (even as 'little' as 32GB, if we won't go for 64 or 128GB eMMC) for system anyway |
| 01:16.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | I however see deficits in reliability and bandwidth for uSD, particularly when using it for system |
| 01:33.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | what you want for system are a maybe 4GB but those shall be as fast as possible. Doesn't make sense to plan for something that's "upgradeable" from 8 times overproviding size to whatever 32 or 128 overproviding, but has deficiencies on speed |
| 01:49.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | ((you remarked yourself)) I said you might have to cut away some of the excess length of UBB, or alternatively cut out some of the plastic of N900 case, to make UBB fit into the uSD slot. I think both is feasible and not a valid argument to replace eMMC by a second uSD slot |
| 01:52.01 | jonwil | This isn't Android where apps and stuff cant be installed on the SD |
| 02:15.44 | comradekingu | DocScrutinizer05: its nice that there is at least one upgrade slot, but it scales with two as well |
| 02:17.11 | comradekingu | you can get a ribbon cable uSD extention too |
| 02:17.42 | comradekingu | jonwil: if you run something like tinycore it can |
| 02:18.07 | jonwil | yeah if you hack Android you can |
| 02:18.13 | jonwil | but if its vanilla Google has decided you cant |
| 02:18.25 | jonwil | not vanilla, rather "google authorized" |
| 02:18.28 | comradekingu | no tinycore linux, not apps2sd |
| 02:19.30 | comradekingu | and for the case of argument, if you want an app thats installed on uSD, then dont remove the uSD |
| 02:45.16 | *** join/#neo900 wicket64 (~wicket@gateway/tor-sasl/wicket64) |
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| 03:54.13 | fling | Thanks for the news ;> |
| 03:54.52 | fling | How thick is the spacer frame? |
| 04:01.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | 2.8mm |
| 04:02.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://neo900.org/stuff/joerg/spacerframe/sketch.pdf |
| 04:02.58 | jonwil | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:04.14 | jonwil | aha, found it |
| 04:05.15 | fling | DocScrutinizer05: how thicker neo900 than n900? |
| 04:07.42 | DocScrutinizer51 | 2.8mm |
| 04:08.23 | jonwil | or not |
| 04:12.47 | jonwil | bingo, found what I need :) |
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| 06:42.14 | *** mode/#neo900 [+v wpwrak] by ChanServ |
| 06:50.39 | wpwrak | grnbl. dear power company: if you know you have to shut down some lines for reconfiguration or whatever, why don't you try to warn us users ? |
| 07:05.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooh |
| 07:06.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | annoying |
| 07:09.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | yay, duck and cover! >>09:06Auf FedEx Fahrzeug zur ZustellungNUERNBERG DE<< |
| 07:11.02 | wpwrak | fanfares, please ! ;-) |
| 07:11.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | heads out igniting the runway lights |
| 07:13.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | but: >> Voraussichtliche Zustellung : z.Zt. nicht verfügbar.<< tzz |
| 07:15.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | "0:30 exit cologne" took only 5h to show up in tracking info |
| 07:27.49 | wpwrak | looks like the truck downloaded its data on arrival |
| 07:34.22 | DocScrutinizer51 | quite possible |
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| 09:33.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | arrived |
| 09:48.15 | jonwil | is glad he decided to take on this project |
| 09:48.48 | jonwil | is sure that the fixes he has made (and will make) is worth the effort |
| 09:53.06 | *** join/#neo900 mvaenskae (~mvaenskae@unaffiliated/mvaenskae) |
| 09:56.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | that sounds good |
| 09:57.00 | jonwil | yeah my decision to re-reverse-engineer MCE again now that I have new tools in my toolkit has come up trumps |
| 09:57.13 | jonwil | Fixing some issues with my RE work |
| 09:57.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | ok, an official thank you to Mozilla Corp and particularly Henry Langi. The hardware donation arrived in good condition and free of charge |
| 09:59.14 | jonwil | Its good that we have more N900s to benefit the Neo900 work |
| 10:01.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep |
| 10:03.36 | *** join/#neo900 mvaenskae (~mvaenskae@unaffiliated/mvaenskae) |
| 10:05.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | Oksana: a package with your name on it arrived as well (luckily it has the right address and "Neo900 UG" on it as well) |
| 10:07.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | qty: 9 |
| 10:10.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | ok, Neo900 hw inventory just added a 55 BL-5J batteries, a 55 N900, and a 9 domesheets |
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| 10:31.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | *sigh* Gerry-mobile says: "max 10 domesheets per order, max 2 orders per week, no volume discounts" |
| 10:33.13 | jonwil | ugh |
| 10:33.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | this *could* pan out till start of MP, if Nokia actually has that amount available still |
| 10:33.50 | jonwil | It sounds like finding N900 domesheets isn't the hard part, its finding N900 domesheets in volume |
| 10:34.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | the limits is what he can do at Nokia order |
| 10:35.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | nah, finding domesheets isn't hard, every Nokia service point can get them |
| 10:35.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | but cost more than gold, and harder to dig up |
| 11:04.47 | mvaenskae | domesheets are not a naturally occuring element ;) |
| 11:04.54 | mvaenskae | one has to use fusion to get those :D |
| 11:17.30 | wpwrak | (n900) pictures or it didn't happen ! ;-) |
| 11:20.34 | bencoh | :] |
| 11:28.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://neo900.org/stuff/joerg/random-media/DSCF0447.JPG http://neo900.org/stuff/joerg/random-media/DSCF0448.JPG |
| 11:31.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | o/ |
| 11:31.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | bbl |
| 11:31.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | (I ordered another 20 domesheets) |
| 11:33.49 | wpwrak | (pics) we want to see more nudity ! maybe start with a teaser and remove a bit of wrapping from one n900. then have the next half uncovered. finally, one bare, maybe suggestively half-opened, with the discarded covers laying next to it. |
| 11:35.18 | bencoh | are those in working state ? |
| 11:35.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | there's one I unpacked and wrapped again, left side. You see ~10cm^2 |
| 11:35.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | hope so |
| 11:37.03 | wpwrak | (10cm^2) meh, that would even pass strict traditional islamist censors |
| 11:37.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | wpwrak: they have a sticker on front (!!), with "N900 - $internalNr" \n "$MAC" |
| 11:38.21 | wpwrak | front = display ? |
| 11:38.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | the one I unwrapped (a pity by the way, this bubble foil is kinda sticky) has serial 42 |
| 11:38.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 11:38.46 | wpwrak | let's hope the sticker comes off easily |
| 11:38.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: |
| 11:39.09 | wpwrak | sticky bubble foil. hmm. do your neighbours have cats ? :) |
| 11:39.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | though it's actually in a area where it doesn't get in the way |
| 11:39.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | o/ l8r |
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| 12:29.20 | *** join/#neo900 Pali (~pali@Maemo/community/contributor/Pali) |
| 12:29.36 | Pali | ~polypaudio |
| 12:29.48 | Pali | ~pulseaudio |
| 12:29.54 | Pali | ~pa |
| 12:29.54 | infobot | rumour has it, pa is PAY ATTENTION!!!!! |
| 12:30.06 | Pali | ~lennart |
| 12:30.06 | infobot | Lennart is ~Poettering |
| 12:30.10 | Pali | ~poettering |
| 12:30.10 | infobot | 'sth is poettering' means it acts invasive, possessive, destructive, and generally in an egocentric exacerbating negative way. ``this cancer is extremely poettering'', or you look here for Linus' notion on what's poettering: http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1404.0/01331.html, or http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1404.0/01488.html, or see ~systemd cabal |
| 12:30.14 | Pali | ~systemd |
| 12:30.15 | infobot | systemd cabal: a bunch of people (Lennart Poettering, Kay Sievers, Harald Hoyer, Daniel Mack, Tom Gundersen, David Herrmann) who want to turn linux into their wet dream perverted version of windows-me-too. See http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html -- Rumor has it that 2016 systemd will have replaced the linux kernel, or see http://boycottsystemd.org/, or see http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/ |
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| 12:49.55 | jake42 | wpwrak: are you using dr picza with your 2.5D scanner? |
| 12:51.13 | wpwrak | jake42: yes. the protocol isn't public and so far nobody seems to have been able to reverse-engineer it. i once had a try at it, too. i remember that the data looked surprisingly random. |
| 12:52.12 | jake42 | our fablab is looking for a working setup to use their roland picza PIX-3 scanner |
| 12:52.25 | wpwrak | (i would have expected something like: host sends vector, device returns distance traveled before hitting obstacle. but it seems there's more going on. |
| 12:52.47 | jake42 | yes, that's what the guys here expected too |
| 12:53.15 | jake42 | could you say something about the setup, software wise? |
| 12:53.45 | wpwrak | i had to install the junk under xp in virtualbox. wouldn't run under wine. |
| 12:54.43 | jake42 | ok, interessting |
| 12:54.46 | jake42 | thanks |
| 12:55.10 | wpwrak | after that, it's reasonably smooth sailing. you need to encourage xp to use a bit more swap if going to 50 um, though. at 100 um, it complains with default settings but doesn't fail. at 50 um, you're greeted by a dying dr. picza at the end of the week of scanning :-( |
| 12:56.06 | jake42 | ah, that might help alot! |
| 12:59.59 | *** join/#neo900 trench (trench@unaffiliated/trench) |
| 13:02.02 | wpwrak | jake42: and make sure power stays on and nobody bumps into the machine while scanning :) |
| 13:04.40 | wpwrak | <PROTECTED> |
| 13:05.14 | jonwil | my god MCE contains a LOT of logic for handling the tklock (covers locking the keypad and touchscreen and also the swipe-to-unlock UI) |
| 13:05.34 | jonwil | then again, it needs it to handle such things as locking stuff when you bring the phone up to your face to talk on phone |
| 13:05.44 | jonwil | so you dont face-trigger buttons by mistake |
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| 13:16.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | ear-trigger |
| 13:18.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | hetzner is funny. their invoice has DE627607**********00 as reference to account charged. This matches roundabout _all_ accounts in Germany |
| 13:25.31 | gurki | uh after all i thougth our scanner is kinda working :O |
| 13:25.42 | gurki | :P |
| 13:25.58 | gurki | (after providing it with some over 9000 gb of ram *g*) |
| 13:27.19 | gurki | (we used to run it on an old laptop with a native winxp installation= |
| 13:36.58 | jake42 | gurki: patkan was still interested :-) |
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| 14:38.35 | ilon | whats up? |
| 14:54.40 | *** join/#neo900 Pali (~pali@Maemo/community/contributor/Pali) |
| 14:59.42 | jonwil | Anyone here any good at reverse engineering stuff? I need help with the last 2 tricky functions in MCE that I am dealing with... |
| 15:18.13 | Pali | hi, do you know some list of email clients which generate *correct* MIME emails? |
| 15:19.26 | Pali | I think it will be small list, but still would like to know if somebody already collected working programs for generating *valid* MIME emails |
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| 15:33.44 | jonwil | this MCE stuff is getting frustrating :( |
| 15:37.51 | *** join/#neo900 jonwil (~jonwil@27-33-80-219.tpgi.com.au) |
| 15:45.07 | jonwil | great, now I cant reach gitorious for some reason :( |
| 15:46.35 | kerio | Pali: apparently someone started collecting bitcoins to hire a hitman to kill lennart poettering |
| 15:46.43 | kerio | i'm not sure how i feel about this |
| 15:47.01 | Pali | ~poettering |
| 15:47.01 | infobot | 'sth is poettering' means it acts invasive, possessive, destructive, and generally in an egocentric exacerbating negative way. ``this cancer is extremely poettering'', or you look here for Linus' notion on what's poettering: http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1404.0/01331.html, or http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1404.0/01488.html, or see ~systemd cabal |
| 15:48.19 | kerio | like |
| 15:48.27 | kerio | on the one hand, you have the killing of a human being |
| 15:48.31 | kerio | on the other hand, systemd dies |
| 15:50.46 | bencoh | huhu |
| 15:51.19 | bencoh | Pali: mutt works properly btw (mail clients) |
| 15:51.29 | bencoh | well, afaik at least |
| 15:51.52 | Pali | I know, mutt generate something which looks like valid |
| 15:52.03 | bencoh | but it isnt ? |
| 15:52.33 | Pali | but would like to see that list of email clients is non trivial set |
| 15:52.45 | bencoh | :-)) |
| 15:59.09 | Pali | kerio: it is on Kickstarter? |
| 16:00.08 | bencoh | do you want to contribute ? :D |
| 16:00.32 | Pali | :D |
| 16:07.32 | Pali | ~messybox |
| 16:07.32 | infobot | messy... err busybox is meant for lean scripting. Regarding all the missing options and immanent limitations (see su, passwd, nice, ps, diff as used by mc...) it's not really the interactive shell of choice. A lot of people hate busybox because a lot of system integrators don't understand the difference between busybox and a decent user interactive shell plus unix utils |
| 16:14.10 | Pali | ~avahi |
| 16:14.16 | Pali | ~avahi-daemon |
| 16:14.28 | Pali | ~ping |
| 16:14.28 | infobot | ~pong |
| 16:15.46 | *** join/#neo900 jonwil (~jonwil@27-33-80-219.tpgi.com.au) |
| 16:15.54 | Pali | do you have any experiences with jackd audio server? |
| 16:21.47 | jonwil | god the logging for this channel seems to be ages behind the actual chat :( |
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| 16:29.40 | bencoh | I used jackd once, to run softmodem (a real soft implementation of a modem) |
| 16:31.01 | bencoh | soft <-> jackd <-> mic <--cable--> speaker <-> jackd <-> soft |
| 16:33.11 | Pali | :D |
| 16:42.08 | jonwil | wonders if there is a way to identify whether the version of gcc (and related bits like glibc) he is using is the same version Nokia used to build MCE, if its not, getting byte-for-byte identical code will be impossible |
| 17:01.17 | jonwil | although I swear I had things working properly before where I was able to get byte-for-byte identical binaries for devlock-blocker at least |
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| 17:32.25 | *** join/#neo900 infobot (ibot@rikers.org) |
| 17:32.25 | *** topic/#neo900 is http://neo900.org | conversations are logged to http://infobot.rikers.org/%23neo900/ | 2013-11-04 - the day our fundraiser reached its goal, 25k EUR | 2013-12-02 - 200 devices reached! | 12-14 50035EUR, 232 units | 01-17 60kEUR, 300 units | 02-28 333 units, 70k⬠| 03-28 350 units, 400 donations, 73555⬠| 0501 360 410 75k | 0712 183 ~30k | 0810 300 ~49k | 0914 346 ~56k |
| 17:32.25 | *** mode/#neo900 [+v infobot] by ChanServ |
| 17:33.32 | freemangordon | jonwil: which functions? |
| 17:34.27 | jonwil | trying to think, doing this stuff at 3am isn't always a good idea :P |
| 17:34.53 | freemangordon | jonwil: also, almost all thing are compiled with 4.2.1, besides some armcc bits in PA |
| 17:34.58 | freemangordon | *things |
| 17:35.03 | jonwil | yeah I know that |
| 17:35.29 | freemangordon | Pali: hi! hows uni going? |
| 17:35.50 | jonwil | Right now though I want to figure out how to get whatever it is that I have to do so that gcc/libc/etc will spit out byte-for-byte-identical binaries for devlock-blocker again |
| 17:35.59 | jonwil | I know I was doing it but now I am not |
| 17:36.18 | freemangordon | jonwil: why do you need that? |
| 17:37.06 | freemangordon | we don;t really need bit identical code, but functionality identical. or better :) |
| 17:38.51 | freemangordon | jonwil: BTW, wanna help with PA once you're done with mce? harm 386 code seems very good when fed int x86 hexrays, but it is just too much code for a one man. not impossible, but will take me months until I RE it alone |
| 17:39.15 | *** join/#neo900 Nokiabot (~Nokiabot@182.66.17.207) |
| 17:40.59 | Nokiabot | Nice article by ~pottering on hacker news ..btw is that hillarious or concerning ?? |
| 17:41.52 | Nokiabot | I.e his google+ post |
| 17:41.59 | dos1 | both |
| 17:42.27 | Nokiabot | Dos1:why ? |
| 17:43.56 | Nokiabot | Hitman part was creepy |
| 17:43.57 | Nokiabot | are people really out of their minds ?? |
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| 17:44.59 | dos1 | concerning, cause starting a btc fund for hiring a hitman doesn't sound very sane :P |
| 17:45.42 | Nokiabot | Lol but i cant believe that kind of sith |
| 17:46.23 | dos1 | hillarious, cause c'mon, if you base your technical contributions on basically doing politics inside of the community and antagonizing your opponents, you must see a response like that coming |
| 17:46.54 | Nokiabot | Humm |
| 17:46.58 | dos1 | it's nothing related to any "Linux community", it's just how humans behave |
| 17:48.13 | dos1 | Poettering is an icon of changes that many people consider bad and hurting |
| 17:48.36 | dos1 | and this issue goes far above any strictly technical matters |
| 17:48.36 | Nokiabot | Maybe thats a reason |
| 17:49.24 | Nokiabot | Politics in tecnical dosent yeld any greater good |
| 17:50.53 | dos1 | so yes, except of creepy parts about some extremes, it's hillarious - in this post he just tries to play a victim |
| 17:51.03 | Nokiabot | \Technical\yeild |
| 17:51.47 | dos1 | while that's nobody but himself who antagonized all those people to him, and it started already way back with pulseaudio |
| 17:51.52 | Nokiabot | Err i had the same feeling |
| 17:53.07 | Nokiabot | The ending lines ******* i dont believe a bit of it |
| 17:55.15 | Nokiabot | Next time his article would start with ((those straights ass raped me .... |
| 17:59.10 | Nokiabot | Whatever its too extreme and thats bad |
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| 19:12.11 | jonwil | freemangordon: ping |
| 19:13.04 | freemangordon | jonwil: pong |
| 19:14.02 | jonwil | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1442113#post1442113 |
| 19:14.50 | jonwil | If you help me fix those last 2 functions from MCE so that they are identical to stock, I will help you with pulseaudio as much as I am able to |
| 19:15.27 | freemangordon | we got a deal :D |
| 19:16.04 | freemangordon | just need some coffee |
| 19:16.45 | jonwil | btw http://www.cncmods.net/files/mce/mce.idb is my stock-MCE IDB file containing everything mapped out |
| 19:17.01 | freemangordon | oh, thanks |
| 19:17.23 | freemangordon | which ida is that? |
| 19:17.26 | freemangordon | 6.1? |
| 19:17.31 | jonwil | 6.5 with ARM HexRays |
| 19:17.50 | freemangordon | hmm, ok. I guess I'll use x86 |
| 19:17.58 | jonwil | ok |
| 19:19.10 | jonwil | Oh and I can confirm that both functions are NOT identical-to-stock, otherwise my binary diff IDA plugin would have flagged them under "this function is functionally identical between both binaries" |
| 19:19.30 | freemangordon | ok |
| 19:19.40 | freemangordon | BTW, I can't find those functions |
| 19:19.47 | freemangordon | i the DB you provided |
| 19:19.56 | freemangordon | something special about the namings? |
| 19:20.49 | jonwil | hmmm yeah I named stuff with an x at the front to indicate that I had verified that the function prototype for the function was correct |
| 19:21.14 | freemangordon | ok, what are the addresses of the functions in question? |
| 19:21.31 | jonwil | 0000FA38 |
| 19:21.36 | jonwil | 00010028 |
| 19:21.37 | freemangordon | oh, it is y.... |
| 19:22.07 | jonwil | oh yeah y is for functions that dont match stock yet :P |
| 19:22.13 | freemangordon | :) |
| 19:25.38 | jonwil | holy crap, I just looked out the window and its daylight again... Is it really 5am already? |
| 19:25.46 | jonwil | :) |
| 19:26.17 | freemangordon | omg |
| 19:27.07 | jonwil | when you are in the zone working on something, you can loose all track of time and forgo normal stuff like food or sleep :) |
| 19:27.38 | jonwil | but now, now that I finished all I can do on MCE until those last 2 functions are properly cloned, I NEED sleep |
| 19:27.46 | freemangordon | have some |
| 19:27.48 | jonwil | before I fall asleep at the keyboard |
| 19:27.48 | freemangordon | :) |
| 19:28.05 | jonwil | post anything you get re the MCE stuff in the forum thread plz |
| 19:28.06 | jonwil | or so |
| 19:28.18 | jonwil | so I can fiddle with it tommorow (or rather later today :) |
| 19:28.22 | jonwil | cya |
| 19:28.22 | freemangordon | ok |
| 19:28.25 | freemangordon | bye |
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| 21:07.24 | Oksana | Hello. I am back. 9 out of 25 domesheets arrived? Gerry-mobile says: "max 10 domesheets per order, max 2 orders per week"? So, within one or two weeks there will be two more packages arriving, ~8 domesheets each? |
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| 22:21.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | Oksana: don't know, the invoice didn't mention any "partial shipping" |
| 22:27.39 | Oksana | But they haven't sent me any letter about: Sorry, we are out of stock, delivering only 9, refunding for others. They have to send the other 16, somehow. If the customer makes a binding ordering a product, to purchase the ordered goods. We are entitled to accept the contractual offer contained in the order within three days of receipt. By delivering the goods to the customer, they accepted... |
| 22:27.41 | Oksana | ...the order, right? |
| 22:28.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | right, that's my take as well |
| 22:28.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | did you already pay for 25? |
| 22:29.29 | Oksana | Yes. The payment went through. |
| 22:29.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | mine too, for 20 |
| 22:29.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | let's see |
| 22:29.59 | Oksana | And I checked with my bank just now (online), there is no refund. |
| 22:30.20 | Oksana | So, they will have to deliver. |
| 22:31.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | or refund eventually |
| 22:32.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | though they are legally bound to delivery, it's hard to enforce that. Only thing you _could_ do is suing for damage regress |
| 22:33.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | but yes, I guess ut's just the amount the could get this (or last) week |
| 22:33.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | I suspect they first will fulfill your order, then eventually send mine (I ordered "please no partial delivery, delay in shipping accepted" |
| 22:34.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | I gonna give mMr Gerry another call, interviewing him where from those Nokia parts come when he orders them |
| 22:35.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | if that's form some strictly German central storage facility, they may have similar facilities in other countries as well |
| 22:36.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | some (minor) problem I noticed: I cannot tax-deduce that type of hw-donation, since the invoice is not on Neo900 UG |
| 22:37.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | however rebate for the tax already paid (when selling the devices) is a nightmare and next to impossible |
| 22:38.50 | Oksana | No problem, about taxes. Out of curiosity, who collects the taxes if the payment is made through Paypal, from A country to G country? |
| 22:40.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | Gerry transfers tax to the tax office |
| 22:42.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | when *I* order at Gerry, I subtract the amount of tax I paid to _them_ from the amount I eventually have to transfer myself to tax office |
| 22:44.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | when you order one domesheet for 18EUR and send it to me, then you paid 19% of that 18bucks on VAT. When I then sell the domasheet again, I again pay 19% VAT |
| 22:45.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | or rather the one who buys it from me pays, and I transfer it to office |
| 22:46.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | when *I* buy a domesheet at gerry for 18bucks and then sell it again to you for 18 bucks, then I don't transfer any VAT to office, you paid it and gerry transfers it to office |
| 22:47.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's why it's called "Vallue Added" - I pay only VAT for the value I added on resale |
| 22:47.52 | Oksana | Ok... If I order something like that again, I will see whether it's possible to have invoice on Neo900 UG. It would be fun... |
| 22:48.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, that would help |
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| 23:10.41 | Oksana | Sorry, Firefox crashed. |
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| 23:43.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | np |
| 23:52.01 | Oksana | :) |
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