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| 02:28.35 | Oksana | Quiet... |
| 02:48.24 | Oksana | Going to lunch. |
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| 03:09.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | Oksana: there's no date we know when preorders "close" |
| 03:12.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | Oksana: nevertheless we are already buying risk parts and each time we have to decide how many we can afford to get. Right now we usually try to get 1000, which would mean there are 700 preorders available yet. this may change any time now, depending on our sourcing. Maybe next part is expensive and we don't dare to get more than 400. Which would basically mean preorders close this moment since we also need several percent for warranty |
| 03:13.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | spare devices etc |
| 03:40.38 | Oksana | Thank you. I was just repeating a question from TMO. http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=93856 Warn ahead when possible. Because people would possibly put in additional donations, especially if the risk part is going to be discontinued soon. |
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| 04:42.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | we're not planning this. When we run into risk parts we usually need to take action as soon as we find an opportunity. Example: we need 1GB RAM PoP chips. They are not available at usual channels anymore. Now we start searching everywhere. eventually we find an offer, we could buy arbitrary amount *right now*. What we gonna do? |
| 04:46.14 | Oksana | Alright, what about some kind of 'emergency funds', so that you could take decision immediately, and replenish the funds later, after taking the decision? |
| 04:47.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's exactly how we handle that |
| 04:48.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | just our funds are lited, hardly enough to finish R&D, and it doesn't make sense to buy 6000 risk parts for 67.99 per unit when in the end we can only sell 300 devices |
| 04:48.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | s/lited/limited/ |
| 04:49.23 | Oksana | What kind of part? Will it be in production one year later? ... Are you publishing anything about stylus-detector, or similar features, on neo900.org website? |
| 04:49.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | the only way we can reasonably determine the amount of risk parts to source is based on number of donations |
| 04:52.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | we already baught risk parts: the display connectors. We *hope* we could get more than the 1000pcs we bought, *if* we would need them. But realistically for now I have to state our amount of devies we can sell is limited to 850 |
| 04:53.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | this can change any time, when tomorrow we need to source another risk part |
| 04:53.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | the display conectors were "cheap", we were able to afford getting 1000 of them |
| 04:54.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | next risk part may be 50 times as much as the display connectors. Or 100 tmes as much |
| 04:54.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | and I have _no_ way to tell beforehand when we run into it |
| 04:57.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | as soon as that happens, the amount of donations done at that point in time is again our basis to decide how many of those parts we order. We will try to get more, we will have a look into our crystal ball and try to guess how many we will need in the end. But it's not like I could tell you "preorders will close in mid of December" |
| 05:01.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | >>especially if the risk part is going to be discontinued soon.<< That's exactly the definition of risk parts: poor availability, EOL in a months or two, or even more usually already discontinued months or even years ago and we try to scoop up the few remaining parts available |
| 05:03.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | electrnics industry is a fast business. Items announced as new 5 years ago may already be forgotten and not even single quantity spare parts are available anymore |
| 05:03.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | see N900 |
| 05:04.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | or beagleboard-xM |
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| 05:25.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | the problem with electronics industry: when e.g. TI announces a new CPU/SoC, then that component will be available maybe 1 or 2 years later. During that time TI develops the chip and provices samples to big players like Nokia so they can have their commercial products ready for rollout when the chip becomes available. Then the chip will get sold in incredible amounts during maybe 6 months, and 2 years later you hardly can buy it anymore |
| 05:25.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | since it's already obsolete and meanwhile sucessors' successors are the new hype. Little projects like Neo900 can start developing only at the time when big corp is already selling the commercial product (N900). By the time we finish our development, we invariably regularly face a number of EOL components, no matter what we picked to build our product from. Developement cycle is longer than component product cycle |
| 05:34.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | but again: so far there's no deadline, we always will be able to source some more than the exact number of donations/preorders. It's just the question how much more, and how much will be the number of preorders at that time. |
| 05:35.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | right now our deadline is "now + 550 additional preorders" with a realistic option to extend than since we can probably order more of the display connectors |
| 05:36.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | s/than/that/. |
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| 05:39.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | >>Are you publishing anything about stylus-detector, or similar features, on neo900.org website?<< that's a valid and good question. I'm a poor writer and mostly busy with EE stuff and project management. I have no idea really about website content management, it's dos1 who does that and he's also our most gifted author of any news artocles. Alas he's pretty busy recently |
| 05:39.12 | Oksana | So, why does TI provide samples only to the big players? And how does it define big players? There are (or were): Siemens, Blackberry, LG, Nokia, Motorola, Palm, GeeksPhone, Google, Huawei, Intel, Jolla, Olivetti, Panasonic, Sony, Vertu, ZTE... And more. |
| 05:40.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | defiition is easy: buy 1 million chips and you're one of the bigger ones. Buy 100 million and you get premium customer support |
| 05:40.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | ask for 1000 chips and they probably have trained their spam filters to deal with this type of inquiry |
| 05:41.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | the really kind companies invite you for a coffee while explaining to you that you're too small for them |
| 05:42.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | usually you can't even get admittance to their lobby |
| 05:48.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | slightly exaggerated you could say: everything *we* can buy at digikey and mouser and farnell is obsolete from they of first availability |
| 05:48.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | s/they/day/ |
| 05:49.31 | Oksana | Alright, samples are like prototypes: not many of them, and each pretty expensive. And changing batch size just for a small company is ... expensive. So, small company would need to be committed to this exact chip, for all foreseeable production purposes, and ready to buy like, a million or more of the chips ahead of time. |
| 05:50.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | the problem of SoC manufs isn't the cost of prototype chips, but the customer support overhead |
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| 05:51.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's not unusal that companies like TI send several engineers fultime to companies like Nokia to help with product integration and bring-up |
| 05:52.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | and even when TI would send their OMAP7 prototypes to Neo900 UG we couldn't use those critters for anything. We have no manuals, no datasheets, no refernce designs, no nothing |
| 05:53.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | we probably wouldn't even have the tools needed to deal with those new critters |
| 05:55.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | and the point is: we cannot have any manuals and datasheets and reference designs since the SoC manufacturer just is about to build resp write them |
| 05:56.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | there don't exist any at that point in time. Only very poor incomplete drafts |
| 05:56.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | and reference design quite easily could be *our* product |
| 05:58.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | iirc TI mentioned TI Zoom-II, beagleboard, and N900 as their reference designs of OMAP3530 |
| 05:58.50 | kerio | let's just get one of those engineers! |
| 05:59.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | now we're luckky enough that TI still produces and sells the compatible successor DM3730 |
| 05:59.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | for other parts the situation is worse |
| 06:02.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | and the general policy gets worse as well: TI doesn't sell OMAP5 chips at all to "end consumers" like us. It's simply too much overhead for them. You can get OMAP5 since a few months as a module, and TI helps module manuf to build a working few millions of those |
| 06:03.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | obviously the knowhow needed to build a working OMAP5 core system (aka module) is too special to allow TI selling the mere chips |
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| 06:05.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | customer: "Hey TI, you sold junk to us. 58% of your OMAP5 chips are dead!" --- TI: "Did you assemble them 3 or 4 days after full moon? No? Did you at least heat your reflow oven with oak wood? No? your fault then" |
| 06:07.53 | ds2 | eh? |
| 06:08.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | ds2: special knowledge needed for hightech |
| 06:08.21 | ds2 | I question most of what you said |
| 06:08.27 | ds2 | but I am not allowed to explain why :( |
| 06:08.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | that helps a lot |
| 06:09.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | please show me a OMAP5 chip available in "low" qunatities! |
| 06:09.32 | ds2 | the problem is anyone that knows about it cannot talk about it :( chicken and egg issues |
| 06:09.49 | ds2 | show me datasheet for it first :D |
| 06:09.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | pfff |
| 06:10.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | [2014-09-16 Tue 07:55:46] <DocScrutinizer05> and the point is: we cannot have any manuals and datasheets and reference designs since the SoC manufacturer just is about to build resp write them |
| 06:11.00 | ds2 | that is not true |
| 06:11.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | aha |
| 06:11.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | so you say TI already has finalized datasheets and TRM for the chips they plan to build 2017? |
| 06:12.06 | ds2 | I am not allowed at the moment to answer that question. |
| 06:12.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | verxy interesting |
| 06:12.18 | ds2 | the OMAP5 is 2012/2013 stuff |
| 06:12.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | please stop this rant |
| 06:12.31 | Oksana | For OMAP, two main distribution channels exist, with different part availability. The primary one is partnership with wireless handset vendors. |
| 06:12.33 | Oksana | Parts developed to suit evolving cell phone requirements are flexible and powerful enough to support sales through less specialised catalogue channels; some OMAP 1 parts, and many OMAP 3 parts, have catalogue versions with different sales and support models. |
| 06:12.34 | Oksana | Parts that are obsolete from the perspective of handset vendors may still be needed to support products developed using catalogue parts and distributor-based inventory management. |
| 06:12.36 | Oksana | About sending engineers: I was thinking about possibility of sending open-source firmware developers to Gemalto so that they would persuade the manufacturer to compile-and-cryptographically-sign something like OsmocomBB. So that then people would know: this firmware is compiled from this open source code, is not-modifiable, and thus legal to use on the GSM chip. |
| 06:12.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | Oksana: I know this staement of TI |
| 06:13.15 | Oksana | Alright, ds2, if you cannot answer that question, then can you answer question why cannot you answer this question? |
| 06:13.25 | ds2 | Oksana: @#$!@#!@@!$@!#$@!# NDAs |
| 06:13.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | please stop this topic, it's leading nowhere |
| 06:13.58 | ds2 | *nod* esp. in a public forum |
| 06:14.15 | Oksana | :):):) |
| 06:15.05 | Oksana | :) :) :) |
| 06:15.24 | kerio | isn't osmocombb gsm-only? |
| 06:15.28 | ds2 | FWIW, a new product was launched recently with an OMAP3 |
| 06:15.41 | ds2 | so no reason why TI won't sell the DM3730 :D |
| 06:15.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | I know for sure that early version of datasheets/TRM done during chip prototype/devloping phase are full of bugs and basically useless without a field engineer telling you what's for real and what's BS in them |
| 06:16.19 | ds2 | Most of that is in erratas |
| 06:16.41 | ds2 | the kernel is litered with references to erratas vs ES |
| 06:16.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | ds2: nobody says TI is going to discontinue DM3730 |
| 06:17.17 | Oksana | Could several small companies (like Neo900 and Pandora) "unite" into "one customer" to order a huge quantity of chips from TI? |
| 06:17.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | in theory yes |
| 06:17.35 | ds2 | I have yet to see a better performance/power ratio then the family of OMAP3's |
| 06:17.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | when they join-merge their R&D so one filed engineer can service them all |
| 06:19.00 | ds2 | a better question to ask is - do you really want those newer chips in your phone? |
| 06:19.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | ds2: please reread what I wrote, and keep in mind I used TI as an example, even though particularly TI is usually doing better than what I tried to explain |
| 06:19.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, thta's not even any question at all |
| 06:19.25 | ds2 | DocScrutinizer05: which of my jumping around are you referring to? |
| 06:19.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm not referring to you at all |
| 06:20.00 | ds2 | the reason I even brought that up is - the power/heat profile of the newer chips (any mfg) blows |
| 06:20.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | so what? |
| 06:20.26 | ds2 | all of them are like intel chips - throttle cpu to keep temperature down |
| 06:20.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | how's that related to anything I try to explain here? |
| 06:20.47 | ds2 | trying to say... those newer chips are moot |
| 06:20.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | i'm not interested |
| 06:21.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | we don't plan to use them |
| 06:21.06 | ds2 | okay, fair enough |
| 06:22.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | I tried to make a point about obsolescence after just 18 months of product life |
| 06:22.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | and why and how that happens |
| 06:22.34 | ds2 | Oksana: one other angle is - they may unite, but is there enough capitol to make it worthwhile? |
| 06:22.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | and why small companies never can join that nasty game |
| 06:23.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | and yes, particularly TI is not as bad regarding that |
| 06:23.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | evidently they still sell OMAP3 |
| 06:23.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | something that doesn't apply to the needed PoP-RAM |
| 06:23.46 | ds2 | I agree with the part about small companies would have a hard time joining |
| 06:24.02 | ds2 | it is the other bits that are killers, IMO |
| 06:24.29 | ds2 | DocScrutinizer05: are you saying POP is a barrier or a helper? |
| 06:24.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | other bits like PoP168 |
| 06:25.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | I say it's hard to source a 1GB RAM chip in PoP168 |
| 06:25.13 | ds2 | ah a specific size... |
| 06:25.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | despite DM3730 easily available |
| 06:25.33 | ds2 | sourcing PoP's in general isn't that hard |
| 06:25.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, in 256 and in 512MB RAM |
| 06:25.55 | ds2 | 512M seems to be the upper limit for easy to find |
| 06:26.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | please read the last 250 lines backscroll |
| 06:26.38 | ds2 | know off hand how much memory is in the Moto 360? |
| 06:26.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | where I elaborated about risl parts, and RAM being one of them |
| 06:27.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | risk parts even |
| 06:27.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | no |
| 06:27.26 | ds2 | it has been a risky part since I been watching this channel :D |
| 06:27.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | so what? do you expect that to change? |
| 06:28.08 | ds2 | unfortunately no... but I have hope that you will prove me wrong and find a low volume friendly source :D |
| 06:28.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | haha |
| 06:28.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure, somebody wll build a 3000 per week, in a silicon fab in transilvania |
| 06:28.55 | ds2 | building is not a problem |
| 06:29.02 | ds2 | is getting them to do the packaging :( |
| 06:29.41 | ds2 | if only all the SoC mfgs could standardize on a PoP pinout, things would be better |
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| 07:46.09 | drathir | mornin... |
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| 08:56.46 | gurki | just read your mail to our fablab list ... |
| 08:56.55 | gurki | what dont you like bout milestone1234/photon? |
| 08:56.56 | gurki | Oo |
| 08:57.19 | gurki | (no flaming/trolling intended. just curious) |
| 08:57.43 | jake42 | gurki: hi |
| 08:57.55 | gurki | jake42: hi |
| 08:57.56 | jake42 | you're talking about motorola milestone? |
| 08:58.00 | gurki | yup |
| 08:59.07 | jake42 | no seperation between CPU and modem RAM |
| 08:59.15 | jake42 | should have mentioned that.. |
| 08:59.53 | gurki | why would i want that? |
| 09:00.33 | gurki | google tells me its a security thing |
| 09:00.35 | jake42 | modem firmware is closed source, CPU runs only open source |
| 09:02.00 | jake42 | if there's only a defined bus serial bus between them which CPU controls, chances are very slim someone compromises your CPU/OS through modem |
| 09:02.48 | jake42 | s/bus // |
| 09:03.36 | gurki | ah. kinda get your point there |
| 09:05.39 | jake42 | it's only for formerly "paranoid", now after snowden "realistic" folks ;-) |
| 09:09.31 | gurki | hrm |
| 09:09.41 | gurki | you really might want a scan with a higher resolution ... |
| 09:09.53 | gurki | that stl of yours looks like your gonna remodel the whole thing |
| 09:09.53 | gurki | :( |
| 09:10.03 | gurki | gonna have to* |
| 09:10.24 | gurki | there _should_ be some institutions at techfak that ve _good_ 3d scanners though ... |
| 09:11.02 | gurki | you might wanna give our 3d scanner a shot ... after all its worth a try. were kinda happy about its output |
| 09:11.11 | jake42 | yes, do know anyone having connections? :-) |
| 09:11.58 | jake42 | your 3d scanner? |
| 09:12.00 | gurki | well ur timing is kinda bad ... everyone writing examns n stuff ^^ |
| 09:12.08 | gurki | im a fablab erlangen guy ... |
| 09:12.24 | jake42 | yea, I guess I might even know you in person ;-) |
| 09:12.29 | gurki | :o |
| 09:12.30 | gurki | :) |
| 09:12.58 | jake42 | (timing) I realise that, had a exam my self today ;-) |
| 09:13.05 | gurki | some guy sold us a REALLY old needle 3d scanner for kinda cheap |
| 09:13.10 | gurki | but its output is kinda good |
| 09:13.11 | gurki | :) |
| 09:13.32 | jake42 | werner has used a similar model |
| 09:13.41 | jake42 | also some ROLAND from the 90's |
| 09:13.44 | gurki | :D |
| 09:14.04 | jake42 | but ifs damn slow if you take a look at the scan times |
| 09:14.22 | gurki | well ... tbh: whatever ... |
| 09:14.29 | gurki | put it in there, let it run, go home, sleep. |
| 09:14.33 | gurki | come next day. ready |
| 09:14.33 | gurki | ;) |
| 09:14.37 | jake42 | yeah |
| 09:15.05 | jake42 | will be more like 3-4 days ;-) |
| 09:15.10 | gurki | :P |
| 09:15.16 | jake42 | with 50um res |
| 09:15.16 | gurki | well. thats hardcore resolution then |
| 09:15.22 | gurki | but i guess thats bout what u want^^ |
| 09:15.46 | jake42 | we don't realy have much experiance with 3d-modelling etc |
| 09:16.13 | jake42 | btw the one in the fablab is only a 2.5D scanner ;-) |
| 09:16.28 | gurki | just noticed ... i ve been looking at a 3d scan that took 11 hours. your scans taking > 20 hours are a lot better |
| 09:16.32 | gurki | yup |
| 09:16.36 | gurki | youre right there ;) |
| 09:17.01 | jake42 | that's why I wondered about you talking about a 3d scanner in fablab |
| 09:17.37 | gurki | its a 2.5D scanner. sry there :) |
| 09:18.00 | jake42 | already looked at the thingy :-) |
| 09:18.07 | gurki | :) |
| 09:18.45 | gurki | well. its kinda the same "examn time" thing. we have some guys that could theoretically do it. (including me *G*) |
| 09:19.02 | gurki | problem is ... examn time |
| 09:19.10 | jake42 | yeah it's not so time critical |
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| 09:21.45 | jake42 | would you be generally intereseted? |
| 09:22.10 | jake42 | I'll be in the "mensa" now, ttyl |
| 09:22.24 | gurki | depends on your definition of time critical :D |
| 09:22.35 | gurki | well. if you wait a sec we could meet at mensa ;) |
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| 09:28.23 | jake42 | i'm im ostaufgan gurki |
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| 10:28.21 | kerio | DocScrutinizer05: question: is the same true for x86/x64 cpus as well? or is it only true for embedded systems? |
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| 11:27.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | the same? |
| 11:28.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | about short product life cycles? No. For x86 there's a huge aftermarket since those things usually are socketed |
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| 11:30.06 | kerio | no, about the need for an engineer to tell you which parts of the spec are correct and which are bull |
| 11:30.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | there are definitely at last 3 shops to buy a x86 CPU in 100km radius around you, almost regardless too where you just are on this globe. For DM3730 and particularly for PoP168 RAM rtc you're lucky when there's one shop in same country as you are |
| 11:30.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | I guess for the boards that come to market same time as the CPU chips, it's kinda true, yes |
| 11:32.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | though less critical, since again socketed and thus the manufacturing technology is kinda unentangled from the CPU chip |
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| 11:33.43 | kerio | right, you'd have to consider the whole board+cpu+ram to make a comparison |
| 11:33.45 | kerio | at least |
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| 11:45.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | soldering a huge BGA PoP chip is a different thing than soldering a socket to a board |
| 11:46.22 | mvaenskae | today is a good day to donate once back home :) |
| 11:46.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | \o/ |
| 11:47.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | the more the merrier ;-) |
| 11:47.13 | mvaenskae | first day of the new semester and already feeling like a little imp again :D |
| 11:47.32 | mvaenskae | perfect conditions, i can only grow from here on :) |
| 11:47.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | hah |
| 11:48.19 | mvaenskae | also i hope to be #347, i like primes :) |
| 11:48.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | in Germany we have a saying "Wer zerknittert aufwacht der kann sich den ganzen Tag entfalten" ;-) |
| 11:49.01 | mvaenskae | i never heard that one in mz 15 years of living in germany |
| 11:49.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | you're probably late for that ;-) |
| 11:49.56 | mvaenskae | well, then i shall order until i get a prime :D (i wish i could) |
| 11:53.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually we have no serial numbers (yet) :-D |
| 11:53.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | and actually we got one PP donation today |
| 11:54.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | two on Friday |
| 11:55.02 | mvaenskae | i think having no serial numbers is ok, the baseband is identification enough :) |
| 11:55.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | I don't even know for which day to count the bank account transfers |
| 11:56.46 | mvaenskae | maybe you should announce the stop one month prior so that there is enough time for potential buyers to decide and catch on via media |
| 11:58.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | please see last 250 lines backscroll, I elaborated on such stop not happening any time, what's going to happen is number of deliverable devices expiring |
| 11:59.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | so far roundabout 550 devices are still order-able |
| 11:59.35 | mvaenskae | i don't have a backscroll sadly :( i will read it on the logs this evening though :) |
| 12:00.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | this number can drop to 50 or less, any time, as soon as we run into another risk part we need to order right away |
| 12:00.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | with no lead time for announcements |
| 12:01.22 | mvaenskae | how are orders on a complete system? |
| 12:01.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry? |
| 12:02.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | you mean what's the situation with case parts? We haven't even started sourcing them yet |
| 12:03.49 | mvaenskae | oh, so people needing a case might be sol from the looks |
| 12:04.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | we hope we can source sufficient amount, but there are also risk parts in that |
| 12:04.29 | mvaenskae | understandably |
| 12:04.56 | mvaenskae | hm, i sadly gotta go now, i want to see what i wrote in my exams and what i missed out on :) |
| 12:05.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | particularly slider mechanism, antennas, digitizer, LCD, in that descending order of severity |
| 12:08.27 | jake42 | gurki: I might have been wrong about the milestones, they all have ti omap SoCs and a seperate modem |
| 12:09.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, proto_V2 has no SoC at all, only an attached beagleboard_xM |
| 12:09.48 | jake42 | DocScrutinizer05: milestones = motorola milestone (a cellphone series) |
| 12:09.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooh |
| 12:10.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | those have a tivoized bootloader for all I know. Maybe cracked meanwhile |
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| 12:12.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | and of course their modems are not documented, no matter if separate like usual back when moto got designed, or one huge soC that does it all as usual today |
| 12:13.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | also separate modem doesn't mean separation per se. I know several designs with separate modem chip which nevertheless share RAM |
| 12:14.42 | gurki | that pretty much sounds like "i have no idea. but i guess its shit." |
| 12:14.48 | gurki | no intention to be offensive here |
| 12:15.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | that pretty much sounds like "I'm not interested" |
| 12:15.40 | gurki | thats totally fine with me ;) |
| 12:15.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | is there a maemo OS available for moto? No! Ergo: not compatible to our goal |
| 12:17.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | we're building a N900 compatible successor that can run maemo apps out of the repo |
| 12:17.52 | gurki | where did i tell you "use the milestone! it kicks ass!" ? |
| 12:17.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | if we would want an android phone, I'd buy one and not build it |
| 12:18.06 | gurki | if you tell me x sucks, im just curious why |
| 12:18.12 | gurki | that has nothing to do with your specific goals |
| 12:18.25 | gurki | u need a maemo phone - build it. why should i not be fine with that |
| 12:18.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm not telling you anything when you started to ask what's wrong with moto |
| 12:19.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | now I'm telling you details about our product that you also could find on our website |
| 12:19.59 | jake42 | DocScrutinizer05: did you read about me talking with gurki today about ppl capable/interested in constructing spacerframe? |
| 12:20.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure, I read every single char posted in here |
| 12:20.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | and I assume you met during lunch |
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| 12:21.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | in the mensa, south entry |
| 12:21.20 | gurki | actually im here because jake asked for help. if i wasnt curious about it i wouldnt be here. but that will include asking "stupid" questions like "why dont u do blablabla" |
| 12:21.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | (wrst?) |
| 12:21.25 | gurki | im kind of a solution oriented guy |
| 12:21.38 | jake42 | DocScrutinizer05: we didn't meet yet ;-) |
| 12:21.46 | jake42 | only almost |
| 12:22.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | gurki: and I'm a grupy old fart, but honest. No bad feelings |
| 12:22.22 | gurki | :D |
| 12:22.28 | gurki | guess i can live with that |
| 12:23.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | then welcome here :-) |
| 12:23.11 | gurki | :-) |
| 12:23.31 | jake42 | DocScrutinizer05: so, would it be an issue if desgin of spacerframe doesn't start until exam-period is over (which is 5.10.) |
| 12:24.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | our design goals were pretty specific: build a device that fits into N900 case and uses same (or 100% compatible) SoC |
| 12:24.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | no issue |
| 12:24.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | we have several months until we need those spacer frames |
| 12:25.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | more like half a year |
| 12:25.27 | jake42 | also, to be clear, nobody commited to the job, yet |
| 12:25.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep, I'm aware |
| 12:25.45 | jake42 | good |
| 12:26.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | when we find somebody, I'll post that good news on all channels ;-D |
| 12:26.43 | gurki | :D |
| 12:26.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | you can't miss that, I guess |
| 12:27.12 | jake42 | I usually refrain from spreading good news too enthusiastic ;-) |
| 12:27.23 | gurki | to have some kind of starting point id really recoomend using our 3d scanner on max resolution |
| 12:27.32 | gurki | could take 2 days or sth but could be usable |
| 12:27.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | can be done, no problem |
| 12:27.39 | gurki | 2.5d scanner =] |
| 12:28.15 | jake42 | how much better would you expect it to be compared to the 50um scans from the link I sent in the email |
| 12:28.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | though I'd prefer optical scans (if they give us the resolution I hope for) |
| 12:29.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep, I think werner's scans are just good enough to start with |
| 12:29.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | noob speaking here |
| 12:30.15 | wpwrak | (scan overnight) after working on the pcb for almost a day, it just promised me that the rest will finish within ~100 hours :) |
| 12:30.41 | gurki | tbh: werners scans are pretty much useless if u intend to use it for 3d printing or anything |
| 12:30.51 | wpwrak | i'm lucky that power has been very stable lately. some years ago, when i did something similar, i had a lot of scans get killed by brownouts :( |
| 12:30.54 | gurki | youd need so much postprocessing that you could actually remodel it in the same time |
| 12:31.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://neo900.org/git/?p=scans;a=blob_plain;hb=HEAD;f=data/png/n900-bot-assembled-inside-100um.png looks already not that bad |
| 12:32.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | we need something new anyway. Those scans only define what it is we need |
| 12:32.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://neo900.org/stuff/joerg/spacerframe/sketch.pdf is what we need |
| 12:32.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | has to fit onto http://neo900.org/git/?p=scans;a=blob_plain;hb=HEAD;f=data/png/n900-bot-assembled-inside-100um.png |
| 12:33.21 | gurki | do you need drills or holes in this one? |
| 12:33.46 | gurki | as drills in sth that comes out of a 3d printer are gonna be quite tricky |
| 12:34.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, the white stuff are apertures, and we need some fancy little structures on the backside maybe, for screws etc |
| 12:34.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | no drilled holes though, for the prototypes |
| 12:36.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | the finaly 500 or 1000 objects will not get made on a regular "cheap2 3D-printer, but either CNCed from plastic or alu, or maybe even made by casting resin into molds |
| 12:37.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | but to start with, we need a 3D model of that object |
| 12:37.21 | gurki | you do not want to cnc 1000 objects. that is gonna cost a _lot_ ^^ |
| 12:37.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | that sucker gonna cost a lot no matter how we make it |
| 12:38.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | I assume cost for CND from alu at 10 to 20 bucks per object |
| 12:38.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | CNC* |
| 12:39.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | again, faintly experienced noon here |
| 12:39.05 | wpwrak | gurki: my scans are mainly for taking measurements. not necesssarily for building complete 3D models. you could use them as a reference, though. e.g., intersect the meshes with your 3D CAD model and see where something sticks out |
| 12:39.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | noob* |
| 12:39.49 | gurki | id assume sth bout 30-40 if u do it at our fablab. i guess u can get it cheaper from $wherever but that should be the number to calculate with |
| 12:40.08 | gurki | and were already just covering our costs ... |
| 12:40.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure, but I guess that's for single objects, not batch of 1000 |
| 12:42.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | tbh that's not exactly my job or expertise how to build those frames and how to do that as economic as possible. We are wanting some professional doing that for us |
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| 12:43.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | in the end I will contract whomever for the complete package, ideally |
| 12:44.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | or split the task into as huge as possible as few as possible partial workpackages |
| 12:45.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | we do what we can to provide usable building blocks (like the scans) to make the task easier. But we're all no ME experts |
| 12:45.27 | jake42 | DocScrutinizer05: I have been looking for ambitioned amatures not professionls. It's a universty, no ones professional (yet) |
| 12:45.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, see it as chance to do first professional level job :-) |
| 12:46.13 | gurki | *g* |
| 12:47.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | we're talking about 5 digit numbers of euro here |
| 12:47.27 | jake42 | you will offer for the job? |
| 12:47.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | I will maybe have for that sub-project to finalize it |
| 12:47.56 | jake42 | for the whole including production of the frames? |
| 12:48.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 12:48.16 | gurki | while i am glad to help (and even more glad if i receive any money) i am not sure i wanna take a _risk_ by signing a contract ... |
| 12:48.29 | gurki | especcialy when we talk bout this numbers |
| 12:48.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's upto negotiations |
| 12:49.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | you don't need to take risk, we got Neo900 UG and my person for that |
| 12:49.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | the risk you take is delivering a shitty job and consequently not getting paid for it |
| 12:49.45 | gurki | who pays for shitty prototypes? |
| 12:49.54 | gurki | first one will fail. first one will always fail |
| 12:49.59 | gurki | second might fail. might work. |
| 12:50.15 | gurki | third works. |
| 12:50.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, shitty prototypes is what you would expect to see falling out of 3D printer in first run anyway ;-P |
| 12:50.24 | gurki | :P |
| 12:50.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | those of course get paid |
| 12:50.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's an expected part of the work package |
| 12:51.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | added bonus for you when you get the job done with fewer cycles |
| 12:53.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's all not a problem as long as we keep communicating |
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| 13:18.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | ok, we might have secured 4 beagleboard-xM |
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| 16:02.10 | PeperPots_ | Someone asked me a interesting question today. will we have options available for open basebands and bootstacks ? |
| 16:03.32 | PeperPots_ | from what i recalled from over a year ago there are options available for open basebands but their data speeds were severely limited |
| 16:04.52 | Nokiabot | Open basebands ? Dont know of any open baseband mordem yet except calypso which is impractical only 2g :) |
| 16:05.24 | PeperPots_ | right there was calypso but that was from almost 2 years ago |
| 16:06.21 | Nokiabot | And for now there is none available for practical use :) |
| 16:06.25 | PeperPots_ | i wouldn't say its COMPLETELY impractical since 802.11R is around the corner |
| 16:06.45 | PeperPots_ | 2g combined with 802.11r might be useful |
| 16:09.05 | Nokiabot | insted N900 will provide mordem monitering and that of course is not what you ask or others fantasise but its one of the best ways to be in control of it afik :) |
| 16:09.43 | Nokiabot | Peperpots:how ? |
| 16:11.10 | Nokiabot | Peperpots_:how ? |
| 16:13.58 | PeperPots_ | Nokiabot: 802.11r would allow you to dump cell carriers altogether |
| 16:14.22 | PeperPots_ | since the handoff tmes are >40ms |
| 16:15.48 | Nokiabot | Peperpots_:kind of mesh networking or what ? I mean range |
| 16:16.12 | PeperPots_ | Nokiabot: better than what we have now thats for sure |
| 16:17.01 | Nokiabot | Sure :) |
| 16:18.03 | PeperPots_ | 11ac didn't increase range only throughput. but connections are still stronger at greater distances |
| 16:19.36 | Nokiabot | Thats better |
| 16:19.59 | Zero_Chaos | actually 11ac beam forming will increase range as well |
| 16:20.07 | Zero_Chaos | but that's mostly unavailable in wave 1 APs |
| 16:21.03 | DocScrutinizer51 | you are free to order a device with odemfootprint not populated. Then you could fit in your homegrown calypso 'module' instead |
| 16:21.12 | Nokiabot | Wifi is too limited only if atleast provided a mile by default it would have been better as its just a too personal network |
| 16:22.46 | DocScrutinizer51 | several towns run tierown public wifi that's supposed to cover complete town. Taipei one of them I know of |
| 16:25.41 | Nokiabot | Docsurutinizer51:lol maybe you can provide calypso to who need it or want it as a module that can be plugged to usb or whatever if thats possible :) also a good marketing pich and an extra spec box |
| 16:27.10 | Nokiabot | Damm spellings |
| 16:27.16 | PeperPots_ | Zero_ ... : RuckusWireless had beamforming before linksys/cisco and belkin started getting into the act. Its actually ancient tech. |
| 16:27.59 | PeperPots_ | DocScrutinizer51: thank you. thats exactly what i wanted to know |
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| 16:28.14 | DocScrutinizer51 | yw |
| 16:28.26 | DocScrutinizer51 | .) |
| 16:29.01 | Nokiabot | Peperpots_:anceint tech/features is what we use today hyped by large corporations as holy grail |
| 16:29.16 | PeperPots_ | DocScrutinizer51: jcase @ xda was grinding me up about .... well there is no such thing as a fully open device show me one that ships.... blah blah blah. I guess his argument to charge 25$ for sunshine is now moot |
| 16:30.15 | Nokiabot | Peperpots_:its moonshine |
| 16:30.21 | Nokiabot | :P |
| 16:30.29 | PeperPots_ | Furthermore, he's kinda a greedy guy. he's got the nerve to show me 5 order for 5 seperate OPO and try and rub it in my face that he knows more than we do. |
| 16:30.51 | PeperPots_ | burns me up :( |
| 16:31.01 | PeperPots_ | Nokiabot: yup |
| 16:31.03 | Nokiabot | I know more than him |
| 16:31.15 | Nokiabot | He he peperpot |
| 16:31.23 | PeperPots_ | thats what i told him! |
| 16:31.29 | DocScrutinizer51 | i'm happily taking any challenge about knowledge regarding baseband etc |
| 16:31.33 | Nokiabot | Lol |
| 16:32.13 | PeperPots_ | if i was a vindictive person i would ask if he wanted ketchup with his foot |
| 16:32.20 | PeperPots_ | lol |
| 16:33.22 | DocScrutinizer51 | hed's right when he states there's no such thing like a free baseband |
| 16:33.29 | DocScrutinizer51 | he's* |
| 16:33.30 | Nokiabot | @Doc i got a samgsung featurephone that does data and call at the same time in ubuntu most of the time i dont know how that happens ? |
| 16:33.58 | PeperPots_ | well not free free as in free bear but atleast open |
| 16:34.12 | DocScrutinizer51 | 2G has a feature todo GPRS during call that works 50percent of time |
| 16:34.50 | DocScrutinizer51 | 3G should work in parallel depending on your modem's features/caps |
| 16:34.55 | PeperPots_ | But GPRS itself still works right ? |
| 16:35.11 | PeperPots_ | minus the compression. |
| 16:35.15 | DocScrutinizer51 | GPRS works, but not during calls |
| 16:35.21 | PeperPots_ | k |
| 16:35.43 | PeperPots_ | calls im not worried about. ill do VoIP |
| 16:35.48 | DocScrutinizer51 | depends id you got the 'right' time slices |
| 16:35.54 | DocScrutinizer51 | aka slots |
| 16:35.57 | DocScrutinizer51 | afaik |
| 16:36.04 | Nokiabot | @Doc really ? As i never found a usb mordem that does it and i tried countless phones but this is the onlyone which does it :eek: |
| 16:36.49 | PeperPots_ | welcome to GTA02 :p |
| 16:37.00 | DocScrutinizer51 | :-D |
| 16:37.06 | PeperPots_ | :D |
| 16:37.13 | Nokiabot | :P |
| 16:38.11 | DocScrutinizer51 | N900 specs explicitly say it supports the concurrency mode 2G call and GPRS |
| 16:38.26 | Nokiabot | Providing cylapso as a usb module to crazy ones would be the best if possible |
| 16:38.50 | DocScrutinizer51 | everybody is free to do that |
| 16:39.38 | DocScrutinizer51 | Neo900 UG won't go down that route of dispair and try to build a calypsomodem |
| 16:40.21 | Nokiabot | Everybody dont know how to do that :) i dont need it just want to know is that possible in a sane way like one uses a regular usb modem |
| 16:40.46 | DocScrutinizer51 | there's USB host (aka 'OTG') available, external and on hackerbus |
| 16:41.24 | DocScrutinizer51 | and as noted above you can get Neo900 sans modem as well |
| 16:41.33 | Nokiabot | So its doable :) thas only what i wanted to know |
| 16:42.35 | DocScrutinizer51 | yes, it's absolutely doable andeven a product spec requirement I promised to several people |
| 16:42.46 | PeperPots_ | was thinking about something else as well |
| 16:42.51 | DocScrutinizer51 | e.g.spacefalcon |
| 16:42.56 | DocScrutinizer51 | ;) |
| 16:43.17 | PeperPots_ | im not sure the need for a thermometer sensor is needed, since this might be able to be taken from the infrared sensor |
| 16:43.45 | PeperPots_ | i would have to look at how accurate it would be though |
| 16:43.48 | Nokiabot | Oh great ! |
| 16:43.52 | DocScrutinizer51 | we have no decent IR sensor |
| 16:44.04 | PeperPots_ | oh |
| 16:44.12 | PeperPots_ | ok then never mind :) |
| 16:45.36 | Nokiabot | Thermometer can be useful during a fever :p doctors would go crazy |
| 16:45.39 | DocScrutinizer51 | would be great to get a full featured FLIR cam, but that's a feature not found in base Neo900 but rather in tricorder extension battery lid snapon |
| 16:45.45 | DocScrutinizer51 | ;-D |
| 16:46.26 | Nokiabot | FLIR cam aka ? |
| 16:46.38 | PeperPots_ | sensorcons sensordrone is a cool addon im thinking about getting to compliment my 900 |
| 16:46.51 | DocScrutinizer51 | I pondered adding contacts to stylus bay so you could use a special stylus with Pt100 in the end |
| 16:47.03 | Nokiabot | ~Wiki FLIR camera |
| 16:47.30 | PeperPots_ | im not familiar with FLIR cameras ill readup on them though |
| 16:47.38 | PeperPots_ | seem interesting |
| 16:48.07 | Nokiabot | @Doc |
| 16:48.52 | Nokiabot | @Doc why stylus sensor is being phased out ? Its useful na |
| 16:49.52 | DocScrutinizer51 | it's not phased out yet |
| 16:50.17 | Nokiabot | Oh |
| 16:50.24 | DocScrutinizer51 | just another option for user to get an extension, since we won't build stylii |
| 16:52.27 | DocScrutinizer51 | FLIR infraread thermo imaging |
| 16:53.29 | DocScrutinizer51 | there re modules with 8 x 8 resolution |
| 16:53.42 | DocScrutinizer51 | (yes, 8 x 8) |
| 16:53.46 | DocScrutinizer51 | iirc |
| 16:54.49 | DocScrutinizer51 | I2C, ideal for hackerbus and mugen cover |
| 16:54.52 | Nokiabot | Cool |
| 16:55.43 | DocScrutinizer51 | overlay it with matching/interlocked viewfinder from normal cam |
| 16:56.27 | Nokiabot | What about those indicater leds and keyboard backlight color |
| 16:56.51 | DocScrutinizer51 | unclear yet |
| 16:57.03 | Nokiabot | Rgb keyboard leds are damm cool |
| 16:57.11 | Nokiabot | Oh |
| 16:57.16 | DocScrutinizer51 | sourcing of matching RGB LEDs for kbd is pretty hard |
| 16:58.33 | Nokiabot | Humm use diffrent color for each keyboard led aka rainbow effect and way cool :p |
| 16:58.36 | DocScrutinizer51 | I would even be willing to check if we could use 3mm round wired ones |
| 16:59.00 | DocScrutinizer51 | no, we won't do weird color locked |
| 16:59.39 | DocScrutinizer51 | either adjustable or white wth customer option to select whatever other fixed color |
| 16:59.40 | Nokiabot | Neo900 is weird :D |
| 17:00.01 | Nokiabot | Yep thas best |
| 17:00.51 | Nokiabot | Anyway changing leds is no big deal either |
| 17:00.51 | DocScrutinizer51 | now sorry, breakfast breakover, back to work, checking legal BS |
| 17:01.10 | Nokiabot | Enjoy bs |
| 17:02.16 | DocScrutinizer51 | no way to enjoy this, though I'm happy with fineprint, finally |
| 17:02.44 | Nokiabot | You happy we happy :) |
| 17:02.59 | DocScrutinizer51 | your donation is actually a credit you give to Neo900 UG |
| 17:03.37 | DocScrutinizer51 | we pay it back to you the momentthe devices get available |
| 17:04.00 | DocScrutinizer51 | sort of VC |
| 17:04.28 | DocScrutinizer51 | this should be safe even for German tax regulations |
| 17:04.52 | jake42 | good to hear that :-) |
| 17:04.55 | DocScrutinizer51 | fineprint on our websitepending to adopt this RSN |
| 17:05.00 | Nokiabot | Neo900 is way over the mark for me as of now :( obviously things will change as i will :p |
| 17:05.59 | wpwrak | btw, regarding stylus detection by capacitive sensing: i ran a few tests: 1) it does produce a change, but 2) that change is very very small |
| 17:06.02 | Nokiabot | Get that on website asap |
| 17:06.39 | DocScrutinizer51 | wpwrak: stylus sensor in block diagram? |
| 17:06.44 | wpwrak | first one: http://neo900.org/stuff/werner/tmp/stylus-hand.png |
| 17:07.01 | wpwrak | (block diagram) no, it's not there yet |
| 17:07.23 | wpwrak | i was making tests to see how capacitive sensing would work |
| 17:07.35 | DocScrutinizer51 | it been Nik's baby, he'll love to find it in BD |
| 17:07.47 | wpwrak | used anelok for it, the alternating triangle pattern |
| 17:08.06 | DocScrutinizer51 | ok, prolly we should use mechanicalswitch |
| 17:08.46 | DocScrutinizer51 | mounted to backof daughter board |
| 17:09.03 | Nokiabot | Wpwrak:why not some mangnetic sensor as an average user can easily fit a thin wire nicely in the groove at stylus tip and it would also look good while no need to bother for diff stylus:) |
| 17:09.08 | wpwrak | so, the png above shows: 50 ksamples idle (noise, thermal effects), then stylus placed on pad (separated from pcb by ~1 mm of plastic), then stylus on pad |
| 17:10.02 | DocScrutinizer51 | mobile here, will check later |
| 17:10.33 | wpwrak | then around 150 k, i removed the stylus, waited until ~220 k, then brought the hand near the sensor pad. at a distance of about 10-5 cm (moved it a bit closer towards the end) |
| 17:11.05 | wpwrak | 2nd run (well, that was actually the first): http://neo900.org/stuff/werner/tmp/stylus-finger.png |
| 17:11.50 | wpwrak | idle, stylus, idle again, stylus, idle, and then i actually touched the pad |
| 17:13.12 | wpwrak | so from this is seems that capacitive sensing may sometimes work but it may not be very reliable: unrelated environmental effects would be just as strong as the signal you're trying to detect |
| 17:13.40 | DocScrutinizer51 | :nod: |
| 17:14.34 | DocScrutinizer51 | mech switch it is then |
| 17:14.40 | wpwrak | also, there's the issue of drift: even in those short runs (100 k samples correspond to about 30 seconds), the DC offset varies by about as much as the amplitude change stylus presence causes |
| 17:15.11 | DocScrutinizer51 | yep |
| 17:15.23 | DocScrutinizer51 | you madeyour point :) |
| 17:15.25 | wpwrak | i'd use IR, but yes, anything other than cap is better :) |
| 17:15.45 | wpwrak | (wow, that was surprisingly easy :) |
| 17:16.04 | DocScrutinizer51 | IR actually has the issue about dirt/dust and eats power too |
| 17:16.45 | DocScrutinizer51 | needs a 103 |
| 17:16.53 | wpwrak | (power) would depend if we can operate it with a low duty cycle |
| 17:16.55 | wpwrak | 103 ? |
| 17:16.57 | jake42 | :D |
| 17:17.02 | DocScrutinizer51 | for those who know |
| 17:17.19 | wpwrak | 10 kOhm resistor ? |
| 17:17.26 | DocScrutinizer51 | nope |
| 17:17.33 | jake42 | beverage |
| 17:17.34 | DocScrutinizer51 | liquid stuff |
| 17:17.53 | DocScrutinizer51 | afk bbl |
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| 17:56.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | ok, let's see :-) |
| 17:57.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, that's useless S/N |
| 17:59.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | nokiabot's suggestion to use magnetic has some appeal but it still needs modifications and I'm not sure I want to do these nor do I plan to run a helpline to assist users in doing such mod to stylus. Also that type of magnetic sensor usually doesn't come "for free" regarding energy consumption |
| 18:00.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | note to self: make sure our vibra motor has "static" magnetic properties, not changing depending on position of moving parts. Otherwise compass calibration becomes a nightmare |
| 18:01.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | should make a ticket out of this |
| 18:02.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | btw my stylii I just checked all have no slot |
| 18:03.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | or "groove" |
| 18:04.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | oooh, that one. No we need to keep that one since it is used by a spring loaded lever that snaps in there to fix the stylus in place |
| 18:06.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | I pondered to use movement of that lever to engage a magnetic (or mechanical) switch, but it's too complicated and movement not exactly large enough for simple detection |
| 18:11.17 | wpwrak | (vibra) so that means fixed magnets and rotating coils. -> must not brushless, right ? |
| 18:12.57 | wpwrak | "Precious Metal Brush" ... sounds brushful :) |
| 18:13.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, brushless is prolly a KO criterion |
| 18:13.33 | *** join/#neo900 mvaenskae (~mvaenskae@unaffiliated/mvaenskae) |
| 18:14.09 | wpwrak | it's also "coreless" -> no iron |
| 18:14.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | need to check what Nik found and posted today, about vibra alternative |
| 18:15.11 | wpwrak | you mean this one ? https://catalog.precisionmicrodrives.com/order-parts/product/304-106-5mm-vibration-motor-7-2mm-type |
| 18:15.16 | wpwrak | (yesterday) |
| 18:15.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep |
| 18:19.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep, "precious metal brush", "coreless", "3 poles". Should be absolutely OK |
| 18:20.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | Max operating Volatge: 3.4V however... |
| 18:20.24 | wpwrak | it does sound good. can't quite mentally picture a coreless motor with the description i found on wikipedia, but "less iron" sounds good in any case :) |
| 18:21.28 | wpwrak | where's a 0.9 V bandgap whe you need one ? :) |
| 18:22.11 | wpwrak | well, it's 100 mA. how much oomph does our 3.3 V rail have ? |
| 18:23.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | no way, needs to go straight to Vbatt |
| 18:24.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | get a 0.7V bandgap |
| 18:24.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | ganble on the rest |
| 18:24.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | gamble even |
| 18:24.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | we're operating it from PWM anyway |
| 18:25.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | also it's max 0.8V, Vbatt is 4V20 max |
| 18:26.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | and we have Ron of driver chip as well |
| 18:26.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | prlly in the 30mR range ;-P |
| 18:27.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | damn those mosfets ;-P |
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| 18:27.43 | mvaenskae | DocScrutinizer05: a quick question before placing a pledge above 100 euros, how is shipping handled? :) |
| 18:27.56 | *** join/#neo900 sixwheeledbeast (~paul@host-78-145-83-154.as13285.net) |
| 18:28.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | for now "as good as it gets, and according to what customers ask for" |
| 18:29.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | depending on destination we might not be able to cover warranty for loss on shipment, when you insist in a method that doesn't include insurance |
| 18:30.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | worst case we pay back when we can't find a way to deliver that you and Neo900 UG would agree on |
| 18:30.34 | mvaenskae | i assume shipping is paid by the people pacing an order, correct? |
| 18:30.40 | mvaenskae | *placing |
| 18:30.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually a non-issue for Europe and western world |
| 18:31.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, shipping is paid by customer |
| 18:31.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | we ship "your way" you pay |
| 18:31.47 | mvaenskae | oh, an interesting question for people living in switzerland, how is tax handled? |
| 18:31.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | we might include a certain amount for "standard shipping method" into the sales price |
| 18:32.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | we don't pay any taxes that your customs ask for. We need to pay VAT for shipping to Europe |
| 18:32.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | aiui |
| 18:33.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | detals about all that yet to get decided on |
| 18:34.37 | mvaenskae | hm, alright, i guess tax will increase it another 100 bucks or so for me then D: welp, can't help it :) |
| 18:45.26 | wpwrak | DocScrutinizer05: if "western world" includes, say, argentina, venezuela, cuba, then i wouldn't be so sure about "no problem" ... |
| 18:46.13 | mvaenskae | argentina has an embargo?! |
| 18:46.56 | wpwrak | DocScrutinizer05: (VAT for europe) that's EU, right ? i.e., you pay VAT for places where the recipient doesn't have to pay anything. and you don't pay VAT for places where customs make the recipient pay customs fees and taxes, which include whatever sort of VAT applies in that place |
| 18:47.51 | wpwrak | mvaenskae: sort of a self-inflicted embargo: out of fear that "hard" foreign currency would leave the country through purchases and such, the government has imposed fairly insane restrictions on imports |
| 18:48.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | argentina, venezuela, cuba are not western world, they are third world ;-P |
| 18:48.28 | mvaenskae | cool story, great idea, 10/10 would recommend to russia |
| 18:48.43 | wpwrak | DocScrutinizer05: not yet, but working on it :) |
| 18:50.02 | wpwrak | mvaenskae: consequences: people get the message and trust the local currency even less; industry can't get materials either -> whole production lines stop or companies shut down completely; potential investors have a look at the mess - and take their money elsewhere |
| 18:50.36 | wpwrak | but for a government that doesn't understand the concept on incentives, that's probably all very confusing and unexpectable |
| 18:50.52 | wpwrak | #s/ on / of / |
| 18:51.34 | mvaenskae | and even if they understood, they rather stay rich themselves and starve the population that give them any chance to become powerful themselves |
| 18:53.39 | mvaenskae | s/that/than |
| 18:53.50 | mvaenskae | ~ping |
| 18:53.50 | infobot | ~pong |
| 18:54.31 | wpwrak | well, in argentina you have both sides: those who have and are at risk of losing, and those who have not and saw some glimpse of prosperity, but are now at risk of losing as well |
| 18:55.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | wpwrak: (VAT for europe) AIUI yes |
| 18:56.02 | wpwrak | so as long as both sides don't understand that it hurts everyone, you can play them against each other. but more and more people are figuring out what's in store for them ... |
| 18:57.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | mvaenskae: trailong / missing |
| 18:57.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | s/long/ling/ |
| 18:57.34 | mvaenskae | ah, right |
| 18:59.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | wpwrak: 1 year til elections that kick female down the street all the way stright to venecuela? |
| 18:59.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | Kirchner? |
| 19:00.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | or is argentinian people stupid enough to give her another term? |
| 19:01.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | or will elections be obsolete until then? |
| 19:03.33 | mvaenskae | what is this word "election" you speak of? |
| 19:03.34 | mvaenskae | :D |
| 19:04.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | by then? |
| 19:04.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | pardon my french! gets better every week |
| 19:05.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | falling for more and more false friends in english the older I get |
| 19:05.47 | wpwrak | DocScrutinizer05: she cna't run for a 3rd term unless they change the constitution |
| 19:05.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | prlly my german language brain slowly takes over for english |
| 19:06.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | keeping some relics that interfere then |
| 19:07.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | wpwrak: and least light at the end of the tunnel. But will you get her sister then? |
| 19:07.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | brother, son, other relative |
| 19:07.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | husband? |
| 19:09.13 | wpwrak | for the next elections, there seem to be three main candidates: macri (right-conservative, currently mayor of the city of buenos aires), massa (somewhat fuzzy, could be anything from neocon to neonazi, currently head of the commune of tigre, a wealthy area in the buenos aires province), and scioli (faithful companion of the current government, currently governor of the buenos aires province) |
| 19:10.39 | wpwrak | my favourite would be macri. a) government policies have been left-populist for the last 12 years and it's high time to make the pendulum swing back, and b) he seems to know how to run a good team. |
| 19:11.09 | wpwrak | if massa makes it, we'd have to see what happens. if scioli wins, i'll run. |
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| 19:13.26 | wpwrak | DocScrutinizer05: she has a kids, yes. also the extended family has obtained posts in the administration. there is no word for "nepotism" in argentina spanish. her daughter doesn't seem to be very interested in politics. her son is, but he's commonly perceived as, erm, not the brightest candle in the chandelier |
| 19:14.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-P |
| 19:16.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | I guess she has her economical stuff sorted, to put it that way. And since she can't do really much to enforce her ideology any longer, maybe she silently vanishes with her whole nepotism club? Well scratch the last part, won't happen |
| 19:16.13 | mvaenskae | wpwrak: well, he most likely isn't a wicked man then |
| 19:17.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | what say polls? |
| 19:17.28 | wpwrak | DocScrutinizer05: any of the three could win |
| 19:18.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | ouch |
| 19:18.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | how's that? |
| 19:18.49 | wpwrak | mvaenskae: since when did stupidity exclude evil ? :) |
| 19:18.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | high uncertainty/fluctuation? Or does teh best guy win, no matter with even 34%? |
| 19:19.50 | mvaenskae | wpwrak: you said he wasn't the brightest candle of the chanelier, so he must not be wicked |
| 19:19.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | or whatever is the simple majority of your elections, maybe there are 10 candidates then 11% might be enough already |
| 19:20.03 | mvaenskae | bad pun is bad :( |
| 19:20.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | oooh |
| 19:20.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | haha |
| 19:20.42 | wpwrak | mvaenskae: aah. gut it ;-) |
| 19:20.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | quite spirited |
| 19:20.50 | wpwrak | gOt |
| 19:21.03 | mvaenskae | wpwrak: you might be executed for treason now in argentina :D |
| 19:21.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | wut? |
| 19:21.51 | wpwrak | elections work like this: a) there's the "internals", an election where each party can present multiple candidates and the one with the most votes then is the champion of the party |
| 19:22.41 | wpwrak | b) then there's the first round. if someone gets more than 50%, that candidate wins. else, there's a 2nd round |
| 19:23.00 | mvaenskae | you just can't gut the firstborn of the current head of country |
| 19:23.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | south american "democracy" ? |
| 19:23.06 | wpwrak | c) in the 2nd round, the two best of the 1st round fight it out among each other |
| 19:23.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | d) the winnder takes it all |
| 19:23.32 | wpwrak | mvaenskae: now there's an idea ... :) |
| 19:23.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | -d |
| 19:24.17 | wpwrak | (any of the three could make it) here's the latest infogram: http://www.infobae.com/2014/09/15/1595029-macri-el-unico-candidato-presidente-que-no-retrocedio-intencion-voto-septiembre |
| 19:24.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | pukes |
| 19:24.58 | wpwrak | macri is currently on the rise, but that may be a temporary effect |
| 19:25.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | clear indicator of people completely fed up with politics. And rightly so |
| 19:26.03 | wpwrak | well, that. and a very heterogenous voting population |
| 19:27.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | when are elections? |
| 19:27.23 | wpwrak | massa is basically "law and order". macri is "governance prosperity". scioli is "social and cosy" |
| 19:27.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | (elections PFFF. Sounds like "vote your dictator") |
| 19:27.41 | wpwrak | in about a year. lemme check .... |
| 19:27.50 | mvaenskae | can one get the selection of "none of the above, new candidates" |
| 19:27.54 | wpwrak | (pick your dictator) yes, that's basically how it works here |
| 19:27.59 | mvaenskae | THAT IS NEEDED! |
| 19:28.13 | wpwrak | mvaenskae: you don't want #4 or #5 ;-) |
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| 19:28.52 | mvaenskae | why not? linux is not the #1 operating system of the world |
| 19:29.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | "Herr Ober, ein neues Publikum bitte!" |
| 19:29.23 | mvaenskae | and #? is neo900 on the success scale of commercial erm... 'phones'? |
| 19:30.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | mvaenskae: simple! just shoot them all |
| 19:30.30 | mvaenskae | that would make wonderful entertainment |
| 19:30.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | (just kidding) |
| 19:31.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | wpwrak: honestly, you need a new constitution |
| 19:31.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | with real relational elections |
| 19:31.37 | wpwrak | the elections will be october 15. the primaries (the "internal" ones) will be in august. not sure when the 2nd round will be. maybe a week later or so. lemme check... |
| 19:32.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | with a parliament elected by people |
| 19:32.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | note one idiot rules, whatever the party he came from |
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| 19:32.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | not* |
| 19:33.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | "pick your dictator" never pans out |
| 19:33.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | unless terms are shorter than one year |
| 19:33.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | and even then... |
| 19:34.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | see USA |
| 19:34.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | a total mess |
| 19:34.22 | mvaenskae | i rather if there is an important decision to make EVERYONE is obligated to vote on it AFTER getting a proper education on th subject |
| 19:34.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | and there the president is kinda controlled by congress |
| 19:35.00 | wpwrak | (2nd round) about three weeks later, it seems (if it's like in 2003) |
| 19:35.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | Russia all the same |
| 19:35.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | Putinism |
| 19:36.00 | mvaenskae | every country is DocScrutinizer05 |
| 19:36.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | dictators are no good, and they tend to have their tricks to stay "in charge" as long as they like |
| 19:36.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, I'm not any country |
| 19:36.47 | wpwrak | yes, there aren't enough dictators like cincinnatus |
| 19:36.56 | mvaenskae | you are not? :o |
| 19:37.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | usually two terms are already enough for them to do whatever they like, and finialize it |
| 19:37.20 | mvaenskae | two terms of 4 years each is way too long |
| 19:37.52 | wpwrak | well, argentina had a president like that: duhalde. he took over after the collapse in 2001/2002 and held elections in 2003, as promised. but people hate him anyway. |
| 19:38.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | German President is a relatively irrelevant person/position |
| 19:39.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | it#s about who makes the laws |
| 19:39.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | that position is the only one that counts |
| 19:39.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | (unless laws are irrelevant by themselves, then you are in a really troubled country, aka in Russia) |
| 19:40.23 | mvaenskae | the US would have been a better example |
| 19:40.41 | wpwrak | the ruling party also has a majority in congress. so executive and legislative speak with one voice. |
| 19:41.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | In USA laws are very important, just nobody understands them and only judges have the power to tell what they actually mean |
| 19:41.30 | wpwrak | and they've been hard at work to infiltrate the judiciary as well |
| 19:41.51 | wpwrak | separation of powers = separate them from those who had them and hold them in one hand :) |
| 19:42.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, fime. So you once had a semi-decent constitution that got perverted by government. Not unusual |
| 19:43.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | the question after next elections will be if that perversion can get reverted |
| 19:44.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | but usually it just gets changed in favor of the one dude in charge |
| 19:49.32 | wpwrak | yeah, changes to the constitution are usually bad news |
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